The Front Door!

[beesy]

I found it! I found it!
From "In Her Own Words"
"I ran to the front door to scream for my neighbor, Karen(she is a nurse), and I remember the bolt on the door not being turned and locked"

Of course, we've discussed the impossibility of Karen hearing her from across the street and down from the Routier's house. A simple "Karen" from the front door would in no way alert Karen. But that does solve the mystery of who SAYS they opened the front door first!
Source: MTJD, page, 4

[accordn2me]

Assuming Darlie's account is accurate, this opens the door :crazy: for the intruder's entry point.

See, all that buisness about the screen being cut with the bread knife so the intruder could get in goes right out the window :slap: with this story.

[sue1017]

See, all that buisness about the screen being cut with the bread knife so the intruder could get in goes right out the window :slap: with this story.
No pun intended right accordn2me?!?!?:doh: LOL

S

[beesy]

Assuming Darlie's account is accurate, this opens the door :crazy: for the intruder's entry point.

See, all that buisness about the screen being cut with the bread knife so the intruder could get in goes right out the window :slap: with this story. All I've said is an intruder did not cut the screen at all. I never said if it was used as an escape route or entry point because neither makes sense. My main point was that either Darlie or Darin cut the screen with the bread knife and returned it to the butcher block

The quote is from "In Her Own Words". I thought your question was always who SAYS they opened the door first. She SAYS she did. This version of her story is the first time she mentions the door being unlocked. It's not in trial testimony or any other interviews.
The screen was cut no matter if or how it was used. You can't deny that the screen was cut. I think her statement further debunks the intruder theory. Why would an intruder come in thru the unlocked front door, but then flee thru the garage, cut the screen and return the knife to the butcher's block? Or another scenario, he enters the unlocked front door, leaves it unlocked, gets the bread knife, cuts the screen in the garage, puts the knife back, then picks up the butcher knife, attacks the boys and Darlie and flees thru the garage where he has cut the screen for his get-away, even though the unlocked front door is a much easier and closer escape route. Sounds like a plan

[accordn2me]

No pun intended right accordn2me?!?!?:doh: LOL

S
;)

2 of em! :p

[accordn2me]

You are right, beesy. The screen was cut and it makes no sense.

Once upon a time, there was a lot of speculation about who opened the door first, if it was locked, etc. I wish I could remember the details but my memory is one of the worst.

The curious thing to me about the door...there is no blood on the tumbler from what I understand. Out of habit, I always reach for the tumbler first. Not to say everyone does what I do, and I can never tell if mine is locked or unlocked because it is so small. But, I would think that no matter who opened the door first, someone's blood should be on the tumbler...Devin's if Darin opened it first...Darlie's if she did...unless they knew it was unlocked. Well, I guess if she was wetting towels by that time, it wouldn't be. But look at that utility room door! When Cron or Linch testified about it, they never said whose blood it was. Why wouldn't they point that out, or try to make Darlie explain it?

[Goody]

But, I would think that no matter who opened the door first, someone's blood should be on the tumbler...Devin's if Darin opened it first...Darlie's if she did...unless they knew it was unlocked. Well, I guess if she was wetting towels by that time, it wouldn't be. But look at that utility room door! When Cron or Linch testified about it, they never said whose blood it was. Why wouldn't they point that out, or try to make Darlie explain it?
O, my gosh. You just stumbled onto something, A2M. I can't believe we missed it all thest months and years Mary, Dani, Cami, I hope you are reading here. If Darin was giving Devon CPR asnd getting blood all over his hands before police arrived, why on earth is none of Devon's blood in the foyer, on the door anywhere, or on the porch. Surely he touched something on his way out to the front yard that night. CJ came up with the no bloody footprints for Darin and we explained that via the carpet. He wouldn't have had to have blood on his feet, but he would have to have blood on his hands if he helped that boy BEFORE Waddell arrived. So where is the proof??????? Why didn't Darin leave behind any of Devon's blood?

[Cowgirl]

What is the tumbler? A deadbolt?

[Goody]

What is the tumbler? A deadbolt?
Yes. It is the deadbolt.

[Cowgirl]

Yes. It is the deadbolt.Thanks. It must be a regional term. I never heard of a tumbler except in a combination (like a safe) lock and it is plural in those, I think. Tumbler means drinking glass to me! But then a water fountain was a bubbler where I grew up, so what do I know? Tee Hee.

[accordn2me]

Another question I have is whose blood is this:

from Volume 5 D. Parks cross of Linch:

12 Q. Did you see any indication of anyone
13 having run through the house while they were bleeding?
14 A. The only drop that I saw with any
15 velocity, was on a wall heading toward the front door,
16 lower portion of the wall, to the right, as you are going
17 out the front door.

[Goody]

Thanks. It must be a regional term. I never heard of a tumbler except in a combination (like a safe) lock and it is plural in those, I think. Tumbler means drinking glass to me! But then a water fountain was a bubbler where I grew up, so what do I know? Tee Hee.
I don't know if it is said more in the south or not, but I would definitely say country people (rural America) probably say it a lot. Not sure why. I always thought it was the sound of the lock unbolting. Sort of has a tumbling sound, doesn't it?

[Goody]

Another question I have is whose blood is this:

from Volume 5 D. Parks cross of Linch:

12 Q. Did you see any indication of anyone
13 having run through the house while they were bleeding?
14 A. The only drop that I saw with any
15 velocity, was on a wall heading toward the front door,
16 lower portion of the wall, to the right, as you are going
17 out the front door.
They couldn't test every single drop so they took a sampling. That drop didn't come into question, I suppose. Evidently it didn't make it into the sampling.

[beesy]

Another question I have is whose blood is this:

from Volume 5 D. Parks cross of Linch:

12 Q. Did you see any indication of anyone
13 having run through the house while they were bleeding?
14 A. The only drop that I saw with any
15 velocity, was on a wall heading toward the front door,
16 lower portion of the wall, to the right, as you are going
17 out the front door. Key(again with the pun) words there are "anyone having run through the house while they were bleeding?" Darin was not bleeding, so this statement doesn't show any proof that Darin had Devon's or anyone's blood on him. No handprints, no bloody smears, only velocity blood which indicates someone running. Darlie says she opened the door, and her statement has always been that she was running and bleeding. She was the only one running and bleeding, unless you're prepared to say that Damon was up running around. So we can assume by the accused's statements that the one drop of velocity blood near the door is Darlie's.
I don't know if she would have reached for the tumbler first, especially in a panic, grabbing the knob would be the quickest option, you'd cut out the time of testing the tumbler. Then if the knob wouldn't open, you'd unlock it. Would you, really in a panic, test the tumbler first or bypass that and go right for the knob? Unless this was a deadbolt which required a key to lock and unlock, reaching for the knob first makes more sense.

[Goody]

I don't know if she would have reached for the tumbler first, especially in a panic, grabbing the knob would be the quickest option, you'd cut out the time of testing the tumbler. Then if the knob wouldn't open, you'd unlock it. Would you, really in a panic, test the tumbler first or bypass that and go right for the knob? Unless this was a deadbolt which required a key to lock and unlock, reaching for the knob first makes more sense.
If they weren't in the habit of locking up, that deadbolt was probably rarely ever locked anyway. They wouldn't be in the habit of reaching for it if they never used it. I suspect that was the case.

[HeartofTexas]

Is it possible one of the boys (obviously, the 2nd one Darlie went after) woke up while his brother was being stabbed, saw what was happening, and ran for the door, opened it, and tried to escape? If so, he would have had no blood on him at the time. Darlie could have caught him at the door and begun stabbing him, which could be, although doubtful, why the other boy was never stabbed sufficiently for him to die before Darin came downstairs (because Darlie was interrupted).

[Goody]

Is it possible one of the boys (obviously, the 2nd one Darlie went after) woke up while his brother was being stabbed, saw what was happening, and ran for the door, opened it, and tried to escape? If so, he would have had no blood on him at the time. Darlie could have caught him at the door and begun stabbing him, which could be, although doubtful, why the other boy was never stabbed sufficiently for him to die before Darin came downstairs (because Darlie was interrupted).
The blood evidence shows that Devon never moved from his position on the floor. I think he tried to fight back by kicking, etc, but he never got up from that position. Damon was stabbed the first time as he slept on the floor near the foot of the couch that Darlie slept on. He later moved to the doorway or near the doorway of the kitchen/family room, where he was attacked a second time. There is no blood evidence to support that either of the boys were ever in the foyer and they definitely were not attacked there.

Technically I suppose it is possible that Damon ran to the door and tried to open it and was stopped, dragged back into the family room....(or even Devon. Before the murders, anything is possible) But bear in mind that the bloody fingerprint is on a glass tabletop that was located behind the couch, which was near to where Damon was attacked the second time. It is also possible that Darlie realized he had moved, that he was not dead, and that she then moved over the couch and braced her weight on that table, maybe with most of her hand wrapped in or holding something causing only her ring finger to leave that bloody, smudged fingerprint, then attacked him the second time where he laid until he bled out and died.

The blood evidence limits the actual stabbings to the family room in specific spots.

[HeartofTexas]

Interesting... and so sad to read, even after all these years. Where did you gain so much knowledge about the blood evidence... what documents (or book?)? Did you figure all of it out on your own, or did someone spell it out somewhere? Some of you have knowledge that is mind-boggling!

[Dani_T]

O, my gosh. You just stumbled onto something, A2M. I can't believe we missed it all thest months and years Mary, Dani, Cami, I hope you are reading here. If Darin was giving Devon CPR asnd getting blood all over his hands before police arrived, why on earth is none of Devon's blood in the foyer, on the door anywhere, or on the porch. Surely he touched something on his way out to the front yard that night. CJ came up with the no bloody footprints for Darin and we explained that via the carpet. He wouldn't have had to have blood on his feet, but he would have to have blood on his hands if he helped that boy BEFORE Waddell arrived. So where is the proof??????? Why didn't Darin leave behind any of Devon's blood?

Do we know for sure that there was none of his blood in the foyer area? It wasn't all tested was it?

I wouldn't expect his hands to be running with blood but I would expect there to be some blood transfer. I remember a few years ago working through the likelyhood of him having gone upstairs like he claims after helping the boys and being extremely doubtful because there was no blood transfer from his feet (which OK- I can overlook that) but also no blood transfer on stair bannister or anywhere upstairs which I think would be highly unlikely if he had gone upstairs as he claimed.

[accordn2me]

I don't know if it is said more in the south or not, but I would definitely say country people (rural America) probably say it a lot.
Not where I'm from! We leave the keys in the car and never lock any doors. It was a major adjustment for me when I moved to the city.

I first heard the term tumbler when I was picking out hardware while building my house. Growing up in the country - never using locks - I locked myself out several times when I first moved to the metropolis. :doh: I was so happy when they started making cars where you have to use the key to lock it. I told my contractor I had to have my house the same way - you have to use the key to lock it when leaving but not to get out because I'm scared of being locked in a fire. He told me I needed a deadbolt lock with a tumbler inside. I love it. Haven't locked myself out since and don't need keys to get outside.

When I come in, I automatically turn the tumbler to lock the door. It's purely habit now. I always reach for it first when going out. Having two kids that go in and out a lot would probably change that habit quickly. Like the Routier's I never use my alarm system any more.

[accordn2me]

They couldn't test every single drop so they took a sampling. That drop didn't come into question, I suppose. Evidently it didn't make it into the sampling. Since it's the only drop that shows any velocity, I would think it would definitely be tested. :banghead:

And shows someone running out the front door, no less!

[accordn2me]

Is it possible one of the boys (obviously, the 2nd one Darlie went after) woke up while his brother was being stabbed, saw what was happening, ... I have always thought it to be just this way HoT...except they didn't find Devon's blood on the knife. My guess was that Damon was stabbed first, then Devon stood up and was stabbed on the spot. I know just because they didn't find Devon's blood on the knife, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

That's what makes this case so crazy. Every time you think you have a reasonable explaination for something, the dang evidence contradicts you.:bang:

[accordn2me]

Do we know for sure that there was none of his blood in the foyer area? It wasn't all tested was it?

I wouldn't expect his hands to be running with blood but I would expect there to be some blood transfer. I remember a few years ago working through the likelyhood of him having gone upstairs like he claims after helping the boys and being extremely doubtful because there was no blood transfer from his feet (which OK- I can overlook that) but also no blood transfer on stair bannister or anywhere upstairs which I think would be highly unlikely if he had gone upstairs as he claimed.
Do you really use the banister going up? Maybe if you're really tired and you need to kinda pull yourself...but the banister is mostly for coming down, I think...in case you trip you don't totally bust your ***.

If Darin went upstairs to get jeans on, that's where the blood would be (and is). Why anywhere else?

[Cowgirl]

A little off topic here, but please lock your doors, even out in the country. Those who would do harm look for open doors first. Crime is everywhere, even out in the country, what with drug labs and all. No place is "safe" any more.

[accordn2me]

A little off topic here, but please lock your doors, even out in the country. Those who would do harm look for open doors first. Crime is everywhere, even out in the country, what with drug labs and all. No place is "safe" any more. Awww, Cowgirl, how sweet. :blushing: Thank you for your concern. Here's a funny story for ya: My aunt & uncle began locking their doors after they built onto their house making their bedroom upstairs. Should someone come in, they couldn't hear it because of their window unit A/C. A few years ago, I was bringing a friend home to meet the family, we arrived really late and the doors were locked. There was no cell phone reception in the area at the time and he thought for sure we would have to drive 45 miles back to a hotel. Of course the keys were in the car so we got right in! :woohoo:He couldn't believe it.

The world is getting more dangerous but that community is decades behind. People still let their dogs run around unleashed, no fences...it's too far between houses for them to run away. Salesmen and others who are not familiar with the residents learn quickly not to drive up and get out of their cars. :eek:

But you are right on target with the drugs. Many newcomers are moving into that area and setting up meth labs. They also benefit from the seclusion and space between property. They are easy to spot though.

And this is not too off topic...still about a front door. :D

[Cowgirl]

You are right, the meth thing is pushing crime further and further out into what used to be considered safe places. I was reminded of this during the Groene abduction case. Duncan abducted those children from their home in rural Wolf Creek, Idaho after killing all the adults. While the search was going on for the kids, I cannot tell you how many of the locals posted that their area out there in the wilderness was still a safe place and that the murder victims were probably known to the perp, blah X 3, because of drugs, etc. No one would have believed that the murderer picked the kids at random while driving down the interstate and spotting the kids playing in their yard.

Even after the girl was found with Duncan, the Idahoans were still posting about being safe out in the wilderness and then a father left his raped daughter to die in the same "safe" area!

Unless your place is unreachable by man, you are not safe anyplace. Leaving doors unlocked is just making it easy for them.

[accordn2me]

Unless your place is unreachable by man, you are not safe anyplace. Leaving doors unlocked is just making it easy for them.
How true, sad but true. I think more people do lock their doors these days even though this is one of the more isolated communities of the world. Nearest interstate is two hours away. There is not even a caution light or traffic signal there. But they are starting to have more crime like the rest of the world.

Did you ever read that book by Truman Capote, In Cold Blood? I think that happened in a very rural area - probably not as rural as where I'm from but rural. Scary!:eek:

[Cowgirl]

How true, sad but true. I think more people do lock their doors these days even though this is one of the more isolated communities of the world. Nearest interstate is two hours away. There is not even a caution light or traffic signal there. But they are starting to have more crime like the rest of the world.

Did you ever read that book by Truman Capote, In Cold Blood? I think that happened in a very rural area - probably not as rural as where I'm from but rural. Scary!:eek:Yes, a wonderful book. Kansas, wasn't it?

[Dani_T]

Do you really use the banister going up? Maybe if you're really tired and you need to kinda pull yourself...but the banister is mostly for coming down, I think...in case you trip you don't totally bust your ***.

If Darin went upstairs to get jeans on, that's where the blood would be (and is). Why anywhere else?

If you are raching up the stairs I think it is naturally to grab the bannister to pull yourself up.

But my point is that there is no blood anywhere upstairs. Not on anything. It means Darin didn't touch anything upstairs unless it was his jeans (although lets not forget his story changed on that one too). He didn't touch the side of the cot to check on Drake- heck he didn't check Drake himself. He didn't touch a wall or a door and his feet couldn't have been bloody because there was no markings.

It just strikes me as pretty darn strange.

[accordn2me]

OK. If it strikes you as strange, it's strange to you. The way I picture it, Darin is reeling from the carnage downstairs, he races up the stairs to put on his jeans. He goes straight to the jeans, picks them up, maybe sits down on the bed, maybe not... pulls them on and races back down the stairs. What else would he need to touch? Not the crib...he could have looked at Drake while he was putting on the jeans. No need to touch him or anything else.

Also, at this point, I don't think he would have had that much blood on him. I think he probably ran downstairs, quickly checked Devon, and as soon as he heard that 911 was on the way, he ran up to grab jeans.

[accordn2me]

Yes, a wonderful book. Kansas, wasn't it? I think so. Reading that will definitely make you want to lock your doors no matter where you live.

[HeartofTexas]

Yes, it was Kansas... and it may have been the Clutter family. It's been sooo many years. I used to work with the man who dated the daughter at the time of her death. If I'm not mistaken, he was the one that found the bodies the next (Sunday?) morning. He said the scene was unbelievable.

[Mary456]

Yes, it was Kansas... and it may have been the Clutter family. It's been sooo many years. I used to work with the man who dated the daughter at the time of her death. If I'm not mistaken, he was the one that found the bodies the next (Sunday?) morning. He said the scene was unbelievable.

Yes, it was Holcomb, Kansas. Holy moley, I can't believe it...you worked with Bobby Rupp? I'm dying of curiousity here...what did he say about the murders?

He was dating Nancy Clutter at the time, and spent Saturday evening at her house. On Sunday morning, a friend of Nancy's came to pick her up for church, and that's when the bodies were discovered.

I think "In Cold Blood" is still one of the best true crime books ever written. It's what got me interested in the dark side of human nature, lol.

[beesy]

ooh oooh oohh fill us in! It was a Sunday AM, I remember that because they were late for church, which alerted friends and family. Still gives me chills. They separated the victims and then shot them one by one, right?

[cami]

O, my gosh. You just stumbled onto something, A2M. I can't believe we missed it all thest months and years Mary, Dani, Cami, I hope you are reading here. If Darin was giving Devon CPR asnd getting blood all over his hands before police arrived, why on earth is none of Devon's blood in the foyer, on the door anywhere, or on the porch. Surely he touched something on his way out to the front yard that night. CJ came up with the no bloody footprints for Darin and we explained that via the carpet. He wouldn't have had to have blood on his feet, but he would have to have blood on his hands if he helped that boy BEFORE Waddell arrived. So where is the proof??????? Why didn't Darin leave behind any of Devon's blood?

Maybe he wiped his hands on his pant legs before he left the room? I know that wouldn't remove all the blood but most of it, I would think.

But yes, good catch. Didn't you have a theory one time that Darin didn't give cpr to Devon until Waddell was in the house?

[cami]

You are right, the meth thing is pushing crime further and further out into what used to be considered safe places. I was reminded of this during the Groene abduction case. Duncan abducted those children from their home in rural Wolf Creek, Idaho after killing all the adults. While the search was going on for the kids, I cannot tell you how many of the locals posted that their area out there in the wilderness was still a safe place and that the murder victims were probably known to the perp, blah X 3, because of drugs, etc. No one would have believed that the murderer picked the kids at random while driving down the interstate and spotting the kids playing in their yard.

Even after the girl was found with Duncan, the Idahoans were still posting about being safe out in the wilderness and then a father left his raped daughter to die in the same "safe" area!

Unless your place is unreachable by man, you are not safe anyplace. Leaving doors unlocked is just making it easy for them.

I got up this morning to find my doors were unlocked all night! My roommate. It's just automatic for me to turn my deadbolt when I come in. I was B&E'd a few year's ago while I was asleep in bed one Friday night, the one night I didn't put my deadbolt on! Once you hear your front door being smashed in, you will never forget ever to turn that deadbolt.

[HeartofTexas]

Re the Clutter family... I wish I could remember what he said, but it's been so many years ago. If my memory is correct (ha!), it's been about 35-37 years ago since I worked with him. Could that be possible??? I mostly remember that he was very quiet, very nice, and very pleasant. He didn't often talk about that day, or those events. So, he wasn't the one that discovered thenm (see how bad memory is!)? I do know he saw it, though, because I remember him saying how gruesome it was. He was not given to a lot of words, though (unlike me!), and never went into much detail about that day. I would guess the memories haunted him and that it was a subject he didn't like to discuss. And who could blame him.

Like you, that was the beginning of true crime for me, too. Capote was probably one of the most gifted writers of our time.... every word he wrote was perfection... and to have that perfection translated to the true crime genre made it a blockbuster.

[Goody]

Did you ever read that book by Truman Capote, In Cold Blood? I think that happened in a very rural area - probably not as rural as where I'm from but rural. Scary!:eek:
Yes, but in that case, one of the killers learned from someone he was in prison with that the Clutter family kept large amounts of money in the house. It was not a random hit. Of course, the family didn't have any stacks of money hidden but the guy was bragging and apparently just made the story up. I don't think he knew that one of the prisoners he was bragging to would get out and go after them for the "money" in the house. As I recall, they got almost nothing from the house and ended up being executed for the crime.

[Goody]

OK. If it strikes you as strange, it's strange to you. The way I picture it, Darin is reeling from the carnage downstairs, he races up the stairs to put on his jeans. He goes straight to the jeans, picks them up, maybe sits down on the bed, maybe not... pulls them on and races back down the stairs. What else would he need to touch? Not the crib...he could have looked at Drake while he was putting on the jeans. No need to touch him or anything else.

Also, at this point, I don't think he would have had that much blood on him. I think he probably ran downstairs, quickly checked Devon, and as soon as he heard that 911 was on the way, he ran up to grab jeans.
As any ER nurse knows, blood has a mind of its own. A tiny little cut on your finger can leave traces in the most unlikely places. If Darin had blood on him, he'd have left something somewhere, most probably in his bedroom as he reached for his pants, as he sat on the bed and put the pants on. He would have touched something he didn't take back downstairs with him. So either he had no blood on him when he wentback upstairs to get his pants or he had the pants on the first time he came downstairs and never went back upstairs for anything.

[Goody]

Maybe he wiped his hands on his pant legs before he left the room? I know that wouldn't remove all the blood but most of it, I would think.

But yes, good catch. Didn't you have a theory one time that Darin didn't give cpr to Devon until Waddell was in the house?
Yes, mostly because no one who saw him that night was very impressed with the blood on him. I would think that would stand out in anyone's memory who looked at him. Even if everyone didn't notice, you'd think that someone would have but not a single person did. That makes me think that he did not have much blood on him at all, except on his hands as Waddell testified to. Even if he wiped them on his pants, he would surely have left a smudge of some kind around that dead bolt if he had touched it. I think the door was never locked that night.

Plus I am not totally convinced that he made any real effort at any time to perform CPR. I wish there were someone here who knows a lot about CPR. Sometimes they work on someone as long as 1.5 hours. I am wondering how long one would attempt CPR on a victim who has bled out. What would be the point? The heart needs blood to pump in order to work, doesn't it?

It just doesn't make sense to me why Damon was left on his own, him being the youngest and the one still alive. Surely Darin with all his first aid experience would know that putting pressure on his wounds was the most important thing he could do in that situation. If he was making a real CPR effort on Devon, when he slipped over to feel Damon's pulse and found none, why didn't he try CPR on Damon? He knew Devon was gone at that point. Even though paramedics were outside, why didn't he at least start it? Instead he goes back to Devon. It doesn't ring true to me. Something about it just feels wrong.

[Goody]

Yes, it was Kansas... and it may have been the Clutter family. It's been sooo many years. I used to work with the man who dated the daughter at the time of her death. If I'm not mistaken, he was the one that found the bodies the next (Sunday?) morning. He said the scene was unbelievable.
What did he end up doing with his life? Did he go into law enforcement or medicine? What type of work did he do?

[accordn2me]

You don't do cardiopulmonary resuscitation on someone who is breathing.

[HeartofTexas]

What did he end up doing with his life? Did he go into law enforcement or medicine? What type of work did he do?
Sorry, Goody, I don't know what he did with his life... at the time we were both working for an insurance company, but I left that job a year or two later and never saw him again. I mostly remember him as a very quiet man, and very nice and down to earth.

[beesy]

You don't do cardiopulmonary resuscitation on someone who is breathing. Of course not! That's not what Goody or I mean. He needed pressure put on his wounds, he needed comfort, he needed more than he got! I don't know if there is a way to help him breathe with blood in his lungs without medical equipment. Would rolling him over have helped? I don't know, but with Darin's 7 years of medical training, he knew something to do.
And you don't do CPR for an extended period on an obviously dead person either

[beesy]

[QUOTE]You are right, the meth thing is pushing crime further and further out into what used to be considered safe places. I was reminded of this during the Groene abduction case. Duncan abducted those children from their home in rural Wolf Creek, Idaho after killing all the adults. While the search was going on for the kids, I cannot tell you how many of the locals posted that their area out there in the wilderness was still a safe place and that the murder victims were probably known to the perp, blah X 3, because of drugs, etc. No one would have believed that the murderer picked the kids at random while driving down the interstate and spotting the kids playing in their yard.
You know we've said how we can tell if a parent is being real or not in interviews? I looked right into that father's eyes and knew he didn't have a thing to do with the murders and/or abduction. That man was hurt to his very core. About as redneck as they come, but his pain was real and raw.

[Goody]

You don't do cardiopulmonary resuscitation on someone who is breathing.
CPR is not the only thing taught in first aid classes. I think it is safe to assume that Darin also knew how to apply pressure to a bleeding wound to slow down the bleeding.

[Goody]

Of course not! That's not what Goody or I mean. He needed pressure put on his wounds, he needed comfort, he needed more than he got! I don't know if there is a way to help him breathe with blood in his lungs without medical equipment. Would rolling him over have helped? I don't know, but with Darin's 7 years of medical training, he knew something to do.
And you don't do CPR for an extended period on an obviously dead person either
You do on a heart attack victim, but I doubt if doctors would continue for an extended period of time on a victim who has bled to death.

[beesy]

You do on a heart attack victim, but I doubt if doctors would continue for an extended period of time on a victim who has bled to death.
I was recently talking to someone on the Dr. Mac board. I was asking if anybody thought Colette checked on Kimmie. I find it hard to believe that even though Colette would have seen Kimmie hit in the head, she wouldn't have checked her, hoping things weren't as bad as they appeared. Somebody suggested that Colette did check on Kimmie, but then heard Kristi being attacked and did a "triage" as she said, left Kimmie and went to help Kristi. That is exactly what Darin should have done and most likely would have if he wasn't helping Darlie by then. Colette knew by looking at her that Kimmie was gone, but Kristi was still alive. Did she linger trying to revive Kimmie, no, she did the right thing and tried to save her other little girl.

[Goody]

That is exactly what Darin should have done and most likely would have if he wasn't helping Darlie by then. Colette knew by looking at her that Kimmie was gone, but Kristi was still alive. Did she linger trying to revive Kimmie, no, she did the right thing and tried to save her other little girl.
Exactly. What you describe is automatic instinct for most of us and most of us don't have any first aid training. I am just amazed that someone who did would not even try to help Damon, esp once it became obvious that Darlie wasn't going to do anything for him.

[HeartofTexas]

I am just amazed that someone who did would not even try to help Damon,
Well, unless both of you were trying desperately to cover up for one of you being a murderer (Darlie), and doing anything to save Damon might lead to him identifying his mother as the one who tried to kill him. Under those circumstances, I think you could avoid helping him indefinitely (if you apply that mindset which, obviously, isn't the way normal people think).

[Goody]

Well, unless both of you were trying desperately to cover up for one of you being a murderer (Darlie), and doing anything to save Damon might lead to him identifying his mother as the one who tried to kill him. Under those circumstances, I think you could avoid helping him indefinitely (if you apply that mindset which, obviously, isn't the way normal people think).
Which means that these two had to have talked before the 911 call was made unless we accept that Darin just looked around and figured it out on his own and then made a conscious decision to protect Darlie rather than defend his kids. How on earth does a guy do that? Most men would have hated their wife for doing such a thing. At the very least temporarily. They wouldn't automatically jump from fear and worry about the kids making it to protecting the one who killed them. That would take some time, I would think.

[HeartofTexas]

I definitely lean towards them talking prior to the 911 call. Obviously, none of us knows what happened that night (much to my chagrin!) but there are too many oddities about the events, actions and conversations of that night for me to believe it all just fell into place the way it did. There are too many lies and inconsistencies for me to believe a lot of what they've both said. Sure, there's no doubt pieces of truth located in each statement... but not the whole truth by any stretch (IMO). And for whatever reason I have trouble making Darin involved in the actual killing, that only leads me to believe she did it but he helped cover it up. And while I don't think he was involved in the murders, I also don't happen to think he's got much depth to him which means he could have instantly chosen her and her freedom over any other choices he could have made that night. I think they were both young and incredibly shallow and had a "disposable society" mentality about them.

I could be totally wrong, and there could also be many other underlying factors involved (her having something to hold over his head, drugs, etc.)... but my bottom line is that they conspired together to cover up her crimes. There is just no other way I can justify in my mind that he didn't go near Damon that night, and nor did she.

[Cowgirl]

I definitely lean towards them talking prior to the 911 call. Obviously, none of us knows what happened that night (much to my chagrin!) but there are too many oddities about the events, actions and conversations of that night for me to believe it all just fell into place the way it did. There are too many lies and inconsistencies for me to believe a lot of what they've both said. Sure, there's no doubt pieces of truth located in each statement... but not the whole truth by any stretch (IMO). And for whatever reason I have trouble making Darin involved in the actual killing, that only leads me to believe she did it but he helped cover it up. And while I don't think he was involved in the murders, I also don't happen to think he's got much depth to him which means he could have instantly chosen her and her freedom over any other choices he could have made that night. I think they were both young and incredibly shallow and had a "disposable society" mentality about them.

I could be totally wrong, and there could also be many other underlying factors involved (her having something to hold over his head, drugs, etc.)... but my bottom line is that they conspired together to cover up her crimes. There is just no other way I can justify in my mind that he didn't go near Damon that night, and nor did she.I have to say, this summary comes as close to mine as I can get my mind around. I still have reservations about believing Darin knew and knows. I could still be convinced of his total oblivion--he seems that dumb to me. Anyone who saw that tramp and fell in love at first sight has no taste, obviously. But to cover up the murder of his two boys is equally incomprehensible to me.

I have to discount her really having anything to hold over his head though. There is nothing as bad as murdering her children and once she was convicted, enough time had passed that he could then just say, she is desperate and making stuff up. And, if she gets serious about pointing fingers at him, that is exactly what he will say. A dead woman walking will say anything.

[Cowgirl]

Which means that these two had to have talked before the 911 call was made unless we accept that Darin just looked around and figured it out on his own and then made a conscious decision to protect Darlie rather than defend his kids. How on earth does a guy do that? Most men would have hated their wife for doing such a thing. At the very least temporarily. They wouldn't automatically jump from fear and worry about the kids making it to protecting the one who killed them. That would take some time, I would think. Oh, I so agree. Every man I know would try to kill the biatch themselves.

[HeartofTexas]

Cowgirl, I also don't think she had anything "that" substantial to hold over his head... it doesn't come into play in any of my scenarios. But the two of them were so screwy, I'm willing to make allowances for almost anything! And to further clarify... I think the first time he came downstairs, and who knows under what circumstances that was, that he caught her in the act of one of the crimes (even if it was just her cutting her own throat). Thus, he knew immediately she was responsible... and he immediately chose saving her at that instant. Anything relating to "holding something over his head" would have come days later, or even much later, when he "might have" waivered a bit. This could have included her knowing about him wanting to hire someone to rob his house (which came out many years later) or any other equally bizarre things we know nothing about. Initially, though, I think he acted from sheer gut instinct, and his gut instinct was to save his prized Darlie. Makes me sick to even contemplate such a thought, but I do think that's what he did.

[Cowgirl]

What you are saying has such a ring of truth for me, Heart. You know how some people are just repulsive and you don't know why? You know how some guys are just a turn off and it is not really any one thing you could say, "Here, fix this and you will be better..."?? That is how Darin strikes me. We laugh about his mullet, his goofy look. He probably has bad breath...now, I have no way of knowing that, he just strikes me that way! So the minute he saw trampy, I mean Darlie, he fell in "love" the same way he would with every woman he ever saw because he never had any of them. Darlie and Mommy parlayed that into a husband she could control and she really mesmerized him once she got that set of boobs!

That is the kind of guy who would cover for his psychopath wife. That is the only way I can get my mind around it. Most men would try to kill a wife who did that to their kids. To ANY kids. As far as planning it together? Only if he is a psychopath too, and somehow, that is not my sense of him.

[HeartofTexas]

I agree 100%! And I love this line... "so the minute he saw trampy, I mean Darlie, he fell in "love"... Soooo true. The only thing I might change is substituting "lust" for "love". When you look at Darin's mom (Sarilda?), and then you look at Darlie, you are light years apart in appearance. I bet he felt like he had married a movie star when he "won" his prized Darlie. And, as you said, once her chest was supporting melons, he never had a clear thought again. The whole story is just so strange and sad that, even after all these years, I still want to hear one of them tell the truth. Won't ever happen! But I would love to hear it nonetheless.

[beesy]

[QUOTE]
I definitely lean towards them talking prior to the 911 call. Obviously, none of us knows what happened that night (much to my chagrin!) but there are too many oddities about the events, actions and conversations of that night for me to believe it all just fell into place the way it did. There are too many lies and inconsistencies for me to believe a lot of what they've both said. Sure, there's no doubt pieces of truth located in each statement... but not the whole truth by any stretch (IMO). And for whatever reason I have trouble making Darin involved in the actual killing, that only leads me to believe she did it but he helped cover it up. And while I don't think he was involved in the murders, I also don't happen to think he's got much depth to him which means he could have instantly chosen her and her freedom over any other choices he could have made that night. I think they were both young and incredibly shallow and had a "disposable society" mentality about them. I believe that during the fight with Darin earlier that evening, Darlie made some sort of stupid threat, like she'd kill herself and take the boys with her... or something like that. He shot back with "oh yeah right, go ahead, you don't have the nerve to do that", probably referring more to Darlie killing herself than the boys anyway. I think she met his dare, except just the part about killing the boys. I can even hear her saying to Darin, "see, you made me do this"! So Darin's shock was real, but only to a certain point. He might even feel total responsibility for the murders. That means they must have talked before the 911 call. But his account of running down the stairs was real, it just happened before he says it did. This could account for all of the different jeans and glasses
stories too.And hey as far as how he sounds on the 911 tape, maybe he's just a better actor! I looked up wiley, which is what I've called him before(besides doofus)LOL and it said something about the ability to change faces and manipulate others.
Goody has spoken about Darlie liking pretty things, quiet things. Remember those silly pix of the boys posing like dolls in their white tuxes? How much longer do you think she'd be able to talk them into taking a photo like that again? Most likely never! The poor things. They weren't children to her or maybe Darin either. They were something to show off, "see how pretty my boys are?" There's your theory right there Heart, the boys were disposable. They weren't quiet and pretty anymore, they were growing up, especially Devon.

[HeartofTexas]

Beesy, I agree re them having similar words during their fight earlier in the evening. I believe I've even outlined a similar scenario on another thread. I still think there was some kind of talk after Darin came downstairs, no matter how brief... something to the effect of, "omygawd, Darlie, how could you have done this... what are we going to do now... oh geez, we've got to make it look like someone else did this to you and the boys." And it went from there, no matter how ill thought out their plan was.

[Goody]

I could be totally wrong, and there could also be many other underlying factors involved (her having something to hold over his head, drugs, etc.)... but my bottom line is that they conspired together to cover up her crimes. There is just no other way I can justify in my mind that he didn't go near Damon that night, and nor did she.
I agree with you, but I don't think even a thug would worry much about drug charges or theft conspiracies in the shadows of such a brutal crime involving family members. Most guys would have spilled their guts about anyone or anything they thought might have led to the attack on their children. The cops wouldn't even have to ask the questions to get to the truth. So Darin's silence is about more than Darlie having something over his head. In my view, the only thing she could have big enough to keep him quiet is his involvement in the murders/crime or planning of it.

I think something unknown caused the attack on Devon and that Damon slept thru it. Little boys can sleep thru earthquakes. Darlie desperately tries to clean up but blood has a mind of its own. It goes everywhere.

Darin discovers the scene and argues with her, maybe they even struggle over the knife. They talk for 45 minutes or so. During that time Darin decides to help Darlie cover up the crime. He quickly points out that cleaning up the crime scene won't work, that they have to stage it and make it look believable. They work together coming up with a story, even walking quickly toward the UR door and only staging what they feel would have been disturbed. That is why so few things are staged, why they didn't overdo it as many criminals do when trying to hide the truth. (The vacuum and the wine glass were big mistakes though)

Damon becomes the sacrificial lamb. How are they going to explain why one child is murdered and the other left unharmned?

Damon is still sleeping and wakes when he is stabbed in the back. They think he will die as quickly as Devon did, but he doesn't. At some point during the staging, they realize Damon has crawled to the other side of the room. Darlie steps up and over the couch, braces herself on the little glasstop table behind the couch and catches up to Damon. She stabs him again.

Only one bloody fingerprint is left on the little table, probably because she has something in her hand that protects or prevents the other fingers from making contact with the tabletop. (The knife maybe?) Maybe it is during this leap over the couch that she accidentally stabs her right arm with the knife her left hand is holding in possibly an odd grip.

Darin doesn't tell her to cut her throat. It was probably her idea, but he tells her how to avoid her windpipe and vocal chords, warns her not to go deep. She cuts her throat, but before she does, she goes into the UR where her arm drips. She pulls the UR door open with a bloody hand leaving the blood there. She leans into the garage to look at the screen or to call out to Darin, assuming he is the one out there (although she could have cut it herself during their staging before Damon's second attack.) When she leans out to look, she may have transferred a speck of blood onto the garage floor.

Darin makes the sock run. When he returns, they go to their prearranged positions --he with Devon and she to the phone to call 911. And the drama begins.

[Goody]

I have to discount her really having anything to hold over his head though. There is nothing as bad as murdering her children and once she was convicted, enough time had passed that he could then just say, she is desperate and making stuff up. And, if she gets serious about pointing fingers at him, that is exactly what he will say. A dead woman walking will say anything.
I agree, Cowgirl, and said as much in my last post.

[Goody]

I agree 100%! And I love this line... "so the minute he saw trampy, I mean Darlie, he fell in "love"... Soooo true. The only thing I might change is substituting "lust" for "love". When you look at Darin's mom (Sarilda?), and then you look at Darlie, you are light years apart in appearance. I bet he felt like he had married a movie star when he "won" his prized Darlie. And, as you said, once her chest was supporting melons, he never had a clear thought again. The whole story is just so strange and sad that, even after all these years, I still want to hear one of them tell the truth. Won't ever happen! But I would love to hear it nonetheless.
I really don't think Darlie was a tramp. Vamp might be more like it. I think she was insecure and terrified of losing Darin. Many insecure people who feel inadequate want to be famous and dream of becoming movie stars or singers. They think that they themselves have nothing to offer but if only they were famous and loved by millions, they would prove their self worth and truly have something to offer. I think Darlie's aspirations support just how insecure and inadequate she really felt.

Did you know that Darlie was already quite busty before the implants? According to one book author, a relative of Darin's said that he was the one who wanted the breast implants.

I do believe though that he thought Darlie was star quality. In many ways she was his trophy wife. That must have added to her feelings of inadequacy. It is so apparent in many of the things he says.

[Goody]

Goody has spoken about Darlie liking pretty things, quiet things. Remember those silly pix of the boys posing like dolls in their white tuxes? How much longer do you think she'd be able to talk them into taking a photo like that again? Most likely never! The poor things. They weren't children to her or maybe Darin either. They were something to show off, "see how pretty my boys are?" There's your theory right there Heart, the boys were disposable. They weren't quiet and pretty anymore, they were growing up, especially Devon.

Did you see that photo where the boys are sticking out their tongues? I think that she sent a lot of mixed messages to the kids as young parents often do without realizing it. On her "up" days, she expected one thing from them, and on her "down" days, it was something else altogether. In one way, they were praised for bad behavior (like in the photo) and in others, bad behavior was met with anger and temper bursts (as in the emptying of the hot tub). I think Darlie was having a much worse time of it in parenting than they want us to believe.

[Goody]

Beesy, I agree re them having similar words during their fight earlier in the evening. I believe I've even outlined a similar scenario on another thread. I still think there was some kind of talk after Darin came downstairs, no matter how brief... something to the effect of, "omygawd, Darlie, how could you have done this... what are we going to do now... oh geez, we've got to make it look like someone else did this to you and the boys." And it went from there, no matter how ill thought out their plan was.
I agree, Heart. I think Darin is much more involved than most think.

[HeartofTexas]

I didn't mean trampy in the literal sense... but in the figurative, as in cheap looking, dressing like a hooker (IMO). From what I hear, she was faithful to Darin... so, no, she wasn't a tramp. I think the only security Darlie had was in her appearance... but even that wasn't enough because she kept having to "up the ante" so to speak... dying her hair not just blonde, but bleached blonde. And I'm not sure who requested the melons, but surely there is something not quite right about someone who chooses either DD or EE for the breast augmentation size. Geez, that is huge. Beyond huge. So, whether he requested them, or she did, they're both nuts IMO. They are beyond garish! And, again IMO, I never saw her on TV that she wasn't flaunting them like they were her prized possessions. I read somewhere today that she wasn't sexually molested but, in my experience, she screams out that someone took advantage of her while growing up. She has all the classic signs and symptoms. As you said, she's a very insecure woman. Very.

[justice2]

OK, guys, ms. newbie here. What's the hot tub story and/or where can I find it.


I can't see Darlie really leaving Darin. What would she do? For a job, a place to live, no child support, assuming the business was about to bust. Live with momma Darlie? I can see her threatening, but I would think Darin would know she was just munipulating him. I can't see him leaving her either, not at all.

[Goody]

They are beyond garish! And, again IMO, I never saw her on TV that she wasn't flaunting them like they were her prized possessions. I read somewhere today that she wasn't sexually molested but, in my experience, she screams out that someone took advantage of her while growing up. She has all the classic signs and symptoms. As you said, she's a very insecure woman. Very.
There is one story about Darlie's stepfather (Dana's father) molesting Darlie once when she was in her early teens or preteens. It is said that he fondled her. It is a weak accusation, imo. I am not even sure I believe it happened or that if it did, it wasn't just one of those accidental touches that got blown out of porportion. I think it would take a lot more than that to cause the kind of damage you are talking about though.

Darlie wasn't promiscuous, which I think is usually the symptom girls who have been sexually abused demonstrate, but some reason she believed she had to do something or be something special in order to be accepted and loved. I think those feelings could come from many different dysfunctional problems growing up. Girls from divorced homes and girls from poor families have also demonstrated such inferior feelings. I think she just learned early that sex could be her ticket to the nice things in life she wanted. And she may have believed that she had nothing else to offer but a beautiful body.

[Goody]

OK, guys, ms. newbie here. What's the hot tub story and/or where can I find it..
It is in the trial testimony. I think both Darlie and Darin addressed it, each saying the other was the one upset by it. The boys had apparently gotten into it that afternoon or early evening and splashed half the water out of it. Patricia Springer, I think, addressed it in her book, saying the neighbor heard Darlie cussing the boys through the fence. She called them little MFers and said they were really going to get it now. I imagine the cost of refilling it was a big deal.

I can't see Darlie really leaving Darin. What would she do? For a job, a place to live, no child support, assuming the business was about to bust. Live with momma Darlie? I can see her threatening, but I would think Darin would know she was just munipulating him. I can't see him leaving her either, not at all.
I agree. Neither of them would leave the other unless the whole relationship just blew apart, and there is no evidence of that at all. They had their differences, but I don't think the so called "separation request" even existed. And if it did, it was probably just part of their "dramatic BS" as Darin says.

[HeartofTexas]

Not all sexually abused girls become sexually promiscuous... there isn't a fixed rule on it but generally you either become very sexually active or you pretty much abstain. It's the way she uses her body that makes me think there is abuse in her background... not just her appearance. It's the movements she makes. No matter what the cause, though, I think it's rather sad when a woman thinks her sexuality is her only selling point... and, for all I know, Darin encouraged that in her (I think you suggested he was the one who asked for the breast implants?). That would be the sign of a true trophy wife, and I find all of that mentality pretty appalling. And goodness only knows it's damned prevalent here in the Dallas area.

[Goody]

Not all sexually abused girls become sexually promiscuous... there isn't a fixed rule on it but generally you either become very sexually active or you pretty much abstain. It's the way she uses her body that makes me think there is abuse in her background... not just her appearance. It's the movements she makes. No matter what the cause, though, I think it's rather sad when a woman thinks her sexuality is her only selling point... and, for all I know, Darin encouraged that in her (I think you suggested he was the one who asked for the breast implants?). That would be the sign of a true trophy wife, and I find all of that mentality pretty appalling. And goodness only knows it's damned prevalent here in the Dallas area.
Patricia Springer claimed (Flesh and Blood) that a relative of Darin's told her (but did not want to be identified) that Darlie had gotten pregnant between Damon and Drake, that she did not want the baby and had asked Darin for an abortion. According to the story, Darin would only agree to the abortion if Darlie would agree to getting the implants. Darlie supposedly showed up at Darin's brother's wedding sporting the DD's and indicated that she was proud of them, chuckling about the bargain made. Since we don't know who said it, there is no way to verify it, but when Darin was on the stand, he indicated that the implants were his idea and even chuckled a little himself when asked about it. So I have a feeling, it is true. Or darned close to it.

I agree that it is sad when women think their only asset is how sexy they appear, but it is an old misconception that has haunted the female gender for generations and generations. Even these TV shows that show women in roles with great careers portray her as being very attractive and sexy, surrounded by guys trying to hit on them. So it shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

[justice2]

It is in the trial testimony. I think both Darlie and Darin addressed it, each saying the other was the one upset by it. The boys had apparently gotten into it that afternoon or early evening and splashed half the water out of it. Patricia Springer, I think, addressed it in her book, saying the neighbor heard Darlie cussing the boys through the fence. She called them little MFers and said they were really going to get it now. I imagine the cost of refilling it was a big deal.

She called her kids MFers?!? WOW. That's pretty bad. Kinda crosses a line doesn't it. Not the same as just swearing. WOW. I will find it in the transcipts. Thanks

[beesy]

I think something unknown caused the attack on Devon and that Damon slept thru it. Little boys can sleep thru earthquakes. Darlie desperately tries to clean up but blood has a mind of its own. It goes everywhere.
Darin discovers the scene and argues with her, maybe they even struggle over the knife. They talk for 45 minutes or so. During that time Darin decides to help Darlie cover up the crime. He quickly points out that cleaning up the crime scene won't work, that they have to stage it and make it look believable. They work together coming up with a story, even walking quickly toward the UR door and only staging what they feel would have been disturbed. That is why so few things are staged, why they didn't overdo it as many criminals do when trying to hide the truth. (The vacuum and the wine glass were big mistakes though)

Very good theory that Devon was killed so much before Damon was attacked. How long does it take for blood to clot? I think you know I believe Devon fought with Darlie though. If nothing else but to lift his legs up and kick at her, remember the nick. I think somebody asked before if Darlie liked everything clean why pick stabbing? There are only so many ways to kill a person for one thing. And another, Devon was on a pallet type sleeping bag. Darlie most likely thought the stabbing would be quick and the blood would end up on the pallet. Strangling somebody takes a long time, as does beating someone to death and the Routiers didn't own a gun. Stabbing it was.
Was there screaming while Darlie stabbed Devon? Possibly...however it happened, Darin woke up and ran downstairs. I think his first reaction is real. He says he sees blood everywhere and doesn't understand what's going on. He's worried that danged glass table had fallen on Devon. That rings very true. Then as you said, they talked, blah blah. I still think either Darlie threatened to hurt the boys or Devon, and Darin "dared" her to do it, or he made her so upset by something during the fight, that he felt responsible for the stabbing. Then believing himself to be as guilty as Darlie, jumped right in there with her.




[QUOTE]
Damon becomes the sacrificial lamb. How are they going to explain why one child is murdered and the other left unharmned?
Damon is still sleeping and wakes when he is stabbed in the back. They think he will die as quickly as Devon did, but he doesn't. At some point during the staging, they realize Damon has crawled to the other side of the room. Darlie steps up and over the couch, braces herself on the little glasstop table behind the couch and catches up to Damon. She stabs him again.
Only one bloody fingerprint is left on the little table, probably because she has something in her hand that protects or prevents the other fingers from making contact with the tabletop. (The knife maybe?) Maybe it is during this leap over the couch that she accidentally stabs her right arm with the knife her
left hand is holding in possibly an odd grip.


This fits very well too Goody, but the timeline is off. I think the last and final attack on Damon takes place while she is on the phone. How do you fit your theory into the timeline? Damon lived 8-9 mins after the fatal wound, as you know. If she stabbed him the last time before cutting her throat and calling 911, you run out of time.


Darin doesn't tell her to cut her throat. It was probably her idea, but he tells her how to avoid her windpipe and vocal chords, warns her not to go deep. She cuts her throat, but before she does, she goes into the UR where her arm drips. She pulls the UR door open with a bloody hand leaving the blood there. She leans into the garage to look at the screen or to call out to Darin, assuming he is the one out there (although she could have cut it herself during their staging before Damon's second attack.) When she leans out to look, she may have transferred a speck of blood onto the garage floor.
Darin makes the sock run. When he returns, they go to their prearranged positions --he with Devon and she to the phone to call 911. And the drama
begins.

That "Darin" on the tape which is transcribed as "Karen" I believe was when Darlie called for Darin, making sure he was going to finish up before the cops came. You know I think she was injured in some way and that's why she had to put herself in the attack. Doing that made everything very complicated. It'd be easier to say she went up to sleep with Darin after the boys fell asleep. Darlie certainly wouldn't have felt bad about leaving the boys alone downstairs.
The cut on her arm bothers me. It's in a very awkward position and I doubt she did it to help stage an attack. It doesn't really add anything to her story.
Have they been able to tell if the stab wounds to Devon were made by a right-handed person? If not, she could have held the knife in her left hand and then maybe Devon kicked the knife up into her arm.

[beesy]

[QUOTE=HeartofTexas]dying her hair not just blonde, but bleached blonde. And I'm not sure who requested the melons, but surely there is something not quite right about someone who chooses either DD or EE for the breast augmentation size. Geez, that is huge. Beyond huge. So, whether he requested them, or she did, they're both nuts IMO. They are beyond garish! And, again IMO, I never saw her on TV that she wasn't flaunting them like they were her prized possessions.
I believe they were 38 DDD's, there's a great pic in MTJD of her and Darin. It's at Xmas and she has an evening gown on. Her leg is turned a little so it peeks out thru the skirt. Her hair is big and bleached and her boobs are beyond huge. Way out there! Oh yeah and her 2 inch fake nails and heavy makeup top the look.

[HeartofTexas]

I've seen that picture... it's been highly publicized! I read somewhere else that they were double E' (EE), and read in another place they were double D's, so wasn't sure which source to believe. Double anything is insane, IMO. Thanks for clarifying.

[beesy]

I've seen that picture... it's been highly publicized! I read somewhere else that they were double E' (EE), and read in another place they were double D's, so wasn't sure which source to believe. Double anything is insane, IMO. Thanks for clarifying.You're right, I've heard different sizes also. Patricia Springer in her book Flesh and Blood says they are 38 DD's as per Darin in the family waiting room at the hospital. He bragged about Darlie's giant boobs and how beautiful she was. Det. Forsch and Det. Patterson were awed by Darin. They knew right then that he'd do anything for her. She was everything to him.
I lean more towards trusting Springer's account of the murders, etc. She used transcripts, photos and she interviewed the LE involved in the case. Springer seems to have less mistakes. Don Davis' and Bararba Davis' books are filled with them. And you know there's no use in counting MTJD in there.

[HeartofTexas]

I'm pretty sure Springer's book is the one I read... and I remember some of the stories from it that have been quoted on here as being from her book. I never read the rest of the books, partially because I've never found them. Part of me would like to see the pix in MTJD but another part of me thinks I would be pretty freaked out (and I've heard repeatedly that it's not worth reading!).

[Cowgirl]

I don't know if they have bra sizes that really address those kinds of boobs but the army navy stores make hammocks for them...

I have to say, the most attractive I have seen Darlie look was after her own hair started to grow out and she wasn't looking like the typical Tammy Faye Baker makeup girl. We like things big in Texas, but not trampy. The prettiest women here, including myself (or so I am told!), use just a little makeup and a little hair styling. My nails grow quite nicely on their own and I wear clear polish unless it is a special occasion. Less is more.

[Goody]

I'm pretty sure Springer's book is the one I read... and I remember some of the stories from it that have been quoted on here as being from her book. I never read the rest of the books, partially because I've never found them. Part of me would like to see the pix in MTJD but another part of me thinks I would be pretty freaked out (and I've heard repeatedly that it's not worth reading!).
If you are going to wade through the evidence to make your own determinations, MTJD is almost a must. Much better than those enhanced photos at the Darlie site. The other books don't offer too much and they do have some errors in them, but if you want to get a feel for what it was like to attend the trial and how all the players appeared to others at the time, the three other books are a good read. The one by Don Davis, which I think is still in print, gives a good look at a lot of the behind the scenes stuff as well as a few comments by others who knew the Routiers. Accurate trial info though can be found in the trial transcripts and court oinions posted at the forDarlie site and the justicefordarlieroutier site. O, let me not forget to tell you that you can find the out of print books ocassionally on ebay or the used Amazon books online.

[Goody]

I don't know if they have bra sizes that really address those kinds of boobs but the army navy stores make hammocks for them....
hahahahahahaha! I don't think the state provides hammocks for inmates though.

I have to say, the most attractive I have seen Darlie look was after her own hair started to grow out and she wasn't looking like the typical Tammy Faye Baker makeup girl. We like things big in Texas, but not trampy. The prettiest women here, including myself (or so I am told!), use just a little makeup and a little hair styling. My nails grow quite nicely on their own and I wear clear polish unless it is a special occasion. Less is more.You mean sort of like Dolly Parton?

I agree that less is more for most of us, and I don't personally like Darlie's fashion/make up choices, etc., but I I can't say that I care enough to form any negative opinion of her. She didn't look like a lowlife who had been wallowing in crack houses for the last several days and wasn't skanky enough to make me think she'd been hooking at truckstops. In fact, she always looked rather neat and clean, like her costumes were carefully put together and well thought out. So I can accept that.

On the other hand, it was always obvious to me that she was not part of the traditional country club set, most of whom would out class her. In fact, I might even say that she probably didn't fit into the neighborhood she lived in that well either. I would imagine that most of them were not into the flashy attire, big hair and big boobs look either.

I am wondering if she is still happy she got that boob job done. Carting around DDs in prison can't be all that much fun.

[HeartofTexas]

Carting around those double D's anywhere doesn't sound like too much fun to me! As a matter of fact, a cart might be a good way to get them where you're going! Darlie bordered on trampy to me... but that's probably just my own bias showing. But then murdering her two boys didn't exactly help my image of her. There are lots of women in Texas like her... too many jewels, hair too boofy, hair too blonde, boobs too big... too much of everything. Kind of like the fountain in front of her house... too big for the lot, too big for the neighborhood, too big not to notice. Her appearance always seemed to scream, "see me, see me, see me" in huge, loud words, as if she was afraid she might be missed.

[Goody]

Carting around those double D's anywhere doesn't sound like too much fun to me! As a matter of fact, a cart might be a good way to get them where you're going! Darlie bordered on trampy to me... but that's probably just my own bias showing. But then murdering her two boys didn't exactly help my image of her. There are lots of women in Texas like her... too many jewels, hair too boofy, hair too blonde, boobs too big... too much of everything. Kind of like the fountain in front of her house... too big for the lot, too big for the neighborhood, too big not to notice. Her appearance always seemed to scream, "see me, see me, see me" in huge, loud words, as if she was afraid she might be missed.
I agree. She was like a walking neon sign. Why did she need so much attention? I would say because she was desperately insecure and overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy, like the person she was wasn't good enough to be accepted by others so she had to create someone else to present to the world. But she was so afraid of being overlooked anyway that she made it impossible for people to ignore. I almost want to say that she grew up poor and rejected by classmates, and this was her way of compensating for it. Wouldn't be the first time. That might explain why she was so desperate to hold onto her material wealth. It was her entire identity. If she lost it, she'd lose her identity, and she'd lose it in the worst way for someone who had to create a tangible self to survive emotionally How's that for an amateur analysis?

[cami]

Did you see that photo where the boys are sticking out their tongues? I think that she sent a lot of mixed messages to the kids as young parents often do without realizing it. On her "up" days, she expected one thing from them, and on her "down" days, it was something else altogether. In one way, they were praised for bad behavior (like in the photo) and in others, bad behavior was met with anger and temper bursts (as in the emptying of the hot tub). I think Darlie was having a much worse time of it in parenting than they want us to believe.

I agree Goody. I can't shake that image of Damon in some of those photos. He looks so sad.

[cami]

Carting around those double D's anywhere doesn't sound like too much fun to me! As a matter of fact, a cart might be a good way to get them where you're going! Darlie bordered on trampy to me... but that's probably just my own bias showing. But then murdering her two boys didn't exactly help my image of her. There are lots of women in Texas like her... too many jewels, hair too boofy, hair too blonde, boobs too big... too much of everything. Kind of like the fountain in front of her house... too big for the lot, too big for the neighborhood, too big not to notice. Her appearance always seemed to scream, "see me, see me, see me" in huge, loud words, as if she was afraid she might be missed.

LOL, wait a minute. I cart them around every day. Unlike Darls though I am all natural. It's the climate, we have to insulate ourselves somehow.

Darlie did border on tramp as far as her clothing I believe. She dressed very provocatively. It's a "if you have it flaunt it" mentality isn't it, I think anyway.

[Cowgirl]

LOL, wait a minute. I cart them around every day. Unlike Darls though I am all natural. It's the climate, we have to insulate ourselves somehow.

Darlie did border on tramp as far as her clothing I believe. She dressed very provocatively. It's a "if you have it flaunt it" mentality isn't it, I think anyway.Well, as someone who has lost about half of her body weight in recent years, I can tell you that one of the nicest things about losing weight is losing my gigantic boobs. Maybe those fake ones don't weigh as much as real ones do, but in any case, it is delightful not to have those things dragging on my chest when I run up a flight of stairs. It is wonderful to have breasts not bulging over the top of a bra, and why anyone would want those huge cumbersome blobs is beyond me! I wish I were totally flat-chested. I guess men might not like it as much but I don't care much about that any more either! Once you have raised your babies, who needs men's issues if you have some money?

[HeartofTexas]

I agree, Cowgirl... I'm also heavy-busted, and I would love not to have to cart them around. They distort how you look in clothes, too. I'm not as big as Darlie, but I'm by no means small. But I've also never flaunted mine, as if to say, "lookie here boys!" If anything, I try to minimize mine, or even at times hide them

Goody, re this quote...

I agree. She was like a walking neon sign. Why did she need so much attention? I would say because she was desperately insecure and overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy, like the person she was wasn't good enough to be accepted by others so she had to create someone else to present to the world. But she was so afraid of being overlooked anyway that she made it impossible for people to ignore. I almost want to say that she grew up poor and rejected by classmates, and this was her way of compensating for it. Wouldn't be the first time. That might explain why she was so desperate to hold onto her material wealth. It was her entire identity. If she lost it, she'd lose her identity, and she'd lose it in the worst way for someone who had to create a tangible self to survive emotionally How's that for an amateur analysis?
I'd say that's about as good an analysis as I've seen! I also think all of her material possessions (and the shopping) were a diversion to keep herself from feeling the emptiness inside her. Once that stopped (or became a problem), I think panic and depression set in. From there, she probably started acting a bit irrationally, and then one night she just totally lost it.

[Cowgirl]

I agree, Cowgirl... I'm also heavy-busted, and I would love not to have to cart them around. They distort how you look in clothes, too. I'm not as big as Darlie, but I'm by no means small. But I've also never flaunted mine, as if to say, "lookie here boys!" If anything, I try to minimize mine, or even at times hide them

Goody, re this quote...


I'd say that's about as good an analysis as I've seen! I also think all of her material possessions (and the shopping) were a diversion to keep herself from feeling the emptiness inside her. Once that stopped (or became a problem), I think panic and depression set in. From there, she probably started acting a bit irrationally, and then one night she just totally lost it.It's funny about material things. My mom grew up in the Depression and they had nothing, six kids and her dad died when she was 6, so her mother worked herself senseless and my mother raised her siblings and still they just got by. She never had anything nice, she felt. When she was raising her kids, just me and my sister, she decided her girls were always going to have nice things. She worked very hard for that. I would have rather had her around more and grew up not getting a "high" out of shopping. My mother could never understand that! So I think we all want what we didn't get enough of, and then if you get it, it is never enough!

I have always said it is tantamount to child abuse to raise kids without enough money, since we have a choice as to how many kids we have. But now that my decisions on how many kids to have are over, I wish I had had more kids with less money! I just cannot imagine Darlie not wanting those boys more than anything material, but maybe if she never had anything... I just can't imagine her mind set.

[Goody]

Darlie did border on tramp as far as her clothing I believe. She dressed very provocatively. It's a "if you have it flaunt it" mentality isn't it, I think anyway.
O. confess. Haven't you ever wanted to wear a leopard print dress with the pointy hemline and flaut that cleavage? hahahahahaha. Every woman dreams of being a Darlie on occassion. She just had the guts or bad taste, whichever you prefer, to flaunt it pretty regularly.

[Goody]

Well, as someone who has lost about half of her body weight in recent years, I can tell you that one of the nicest things about losing weight is losing my gigantic boobs. Maybe those fake ones don't weigh as much as real ones do, but in any case, it is delightful not to have those things dragging on my chest when I run up a flight of stairs. It is wonderful to have breasts not bulging over the top of a bra, and why anyone would want those huge cumbersome blobs is beyond me! I wish I were totally flat-chested. I guess men might not like it as much but I don't care much about that any more either! Once you have raised your babies, who needs men's issues if you have some money?
I hear ya, Cowgirl. I was just looking at myself in the mirror the other day and wondering if Twiggy were available for a body transplant. hahahahaha.

[Goody]

I'd say that's about as good an analysis as I've seen! I also think all of her material possessions (and the shopping) were a diversion to keep herself from feeling the emptiness inside her. Once that stopped (or became a problem), I think panic and depression set in. From there, she probably started acting a bit irrationally, and then one night she just totally lost it.
Lots of women use shopping to keep depression and loneliness at bay. Women trapped in loveless marriages, for example, often use shopping as an antedote. Women who have to have a crisis constantly going on in their lives are often big shoppers, too. I think they use it to fill the slow periods between crises.

I am not sure if Darlie just lost it that night or not, but it is certainly a possibility. I am reserving my opinion on that until I can learn more about what actually happened to initiate the first attack.

[Goody]

It's funny about material things. My mom grew up in the Depression and they had nothing, six kids and her dad died when she was 6, so her mother worked herself senseless and my mother raised her siblings and still they just got by. She never had anything nice, she felt. When she was raising her kids, just me and my sister, she decided her girls were always going to have nice things. She worked very hard for that. I would have rather had her around more and grew up not getting a "high" out of shopping. My mother could never understand that! So I think we all want what we didn't get enough of, and then if you get it, it is never enough!.
My mother grew up during the Depression, too, and she loved to shop. She always surrounded herself with pretty things and placed no value on education or other more meaningful things. I do not mean to make her appear shallow because she was not shallow, just unable to conquer that need to have more and more. As she grew older, she would do all her shopping,then come over and offer to go do my shopping for me. I've give her the cash and a list and off she would go. When she came back, she'd be as happy as a lark. I never shared her need for material things or her love of shopping.

I have always said it is tantamount to child abuse to raise kids without enough money, since we have a choice as to how many kids we have. But now that my decisions on how many kids to have are over, I wish I had had more kids with less money! I just cannot imagine Darlie not wanting those boys more than anything material, but maybe if she never had anything... I just can't imagine her mind set.
Darlie grew up in a much more materialistic world than we did. In our day it was no crime to be poor. Now it almost is. As you said it is tantamount to child abuse to have children if you are poor and uneducated. Many people feel that way and are cruel to both adults and children in that situation.

I think Darlie lost sight of what was important. Darin said as much in the radio interview, I've heard. I should take the time and go listen to those interviews. I never have.

I think that when we are immersed in a situation we tend to lose sight of reality beyond our own little world. I think that is what happened to Darlie. I think she literally forgot how much she loved the children and came to see them as only burdens who were weighing her down and preventing her from the life she felt she deserved. And I think Darin felt the same way. The difference between the two of them might be in the solutions to the problem they chose, but if it was, they quickly came together even on that.

[beesy]

[QUOTE]
LOL, wait a minute. I cart them around every day. Unlike Darls though I am all natural. It's the climate, we have to insulate ourselves somehow.
LOL, my mother had a double masectomy at age 67, about 2 years ago. She was not troubled in any way to get rid of those floppy things, as she called them. Now she just wears a padded cami and she is free of bra marks and an aching back

[beesy]

Yes, it was Holcomb, Kansas. Holy moley, I can't believe it...you worked with Bobby Rupp? I'm dying of curiousity here...what did he say about the murders?

He was dating Nancy Clutter at the time, and spent Saturday evening at her house. On Sunday morning, a friend of Nancy's came to pick her up for church, and that's when the bodies were discovered.

I think "In Cold Blood" is still one of the best true crime books ever written. It's what got me interested in the dark side of human nature, lol. Argh! Tues night A&E showed an American Justice episode about the Clutter case! Ugh! I missed it. Saw that it was on when I checked into the A&E message board after the fact. Did anybody see it? The write up talked about it's importance in criminal investigations and getting more people involved in that line of work.

[cami]

Well, as someone who has lost about half of her body weight in recent years, I can tell you that one of the nicest things about losing weight is losing my gigantic boobs. Maybe those fake ones don't weigh as much as real ones do, but in any case, it is delightful not to have those things dragging on my chest when I run up a flight of stairs. It is wonderful to have breasts not bulging over the top of a bra, and why anyone would want those huge cumbersome blobs is beyond me! I wish I were totally flat-chested. I guess men might not like it as much but I don't care much about that any more either! Once you have raised your babies, who needs men's issues if you have some money?


aaaahahahah I agree they are a pain in the a$$. I too would love to be flat chested. I use to pray that I would wake up and be flat chested, LOL. Even at my tiniest weight of 99 lbs I was still a 36C so you can imagine.

[cami]

O. confess. Haven't you ever wanted to wear a leopard print dress with the pointy hemline and flaut that cleavage? hahahahahaha. Every woman dreams of being a Darlie on occassion. She just had the guts or bad taste, whichever you prefer, to flaunt it pretty regularly.


Oh but yes ms. goody, I do flaunt my cleavage on ocassion but ixnay on the dress, maybe a lp blouse though, LOL.

Dartmouth girls up!

[cami]

I'd say that's about as good an analysis as I've seen! I also think all of her material possessions (and the shopping) were a diversion to keep herself from feeling the emptiness inside her. Once that stopped (or became a problem), I think panic and depression set in. From there, she probably started acting a bit irrationally, and then one night she just totally lost it.

Yours is too. We had an article long ago on Candy Montgomery I think her name was and it touched on that, Darlie's emptiness, to the point where nothing was enough for her, she wouldn't be satisfied. I think Patricia Springer touches on this in her book.

Ha Ha I was reading something on the net only this morning that describes Darlie as "looking like a truck stop waitress with heavy eyeliner and dyed blonde hair"

[bensmom98]

Ha Ha I was reading something on the net only this morning that describes Darlie as "looking like a truck stop waitress with heavy eyeliner and dyed blonde hair"


That's an insult to truck stop waitresses. :crazy:

[Goody]

Oh but yes ms. goody, I do flaunt my cleavage on ocassion but ixnay on the dress, maybe a lp blouse though, LOL.

Dartmouth girls up!
aahahahahahhaahhaah! You know, I was the type who felt put down if I wasn't thought of as sexy (by my hubby or close male friends, of course) and if I was, I felt insulted that I wasn't appreciated for my mind. Does that make me normal? Some men might say so. All I can say is it sure made me confused like the line in Donna Fargo's song, "My head stays sort of foggy all the time" (Yes, I know she says "cause you're mine," but I like it better my way.)

[Goody]

That's an insult to truck stop waitresses. :crazy:
I agree. Most truck stop waitresses are old. hahahashahahha. Just kidding.