Barnhill

[Rupert]

Following are quotes of a number of points made by posters before on various threads referring to Barnhill as an eyewitness to someone approaching the house. I never explored this and it seems strange to have a few things intersecting (Barnhill see's stranger and recants, Barnhill's alibi recants, boarder introduces himself night of 23)

(credit to BlueCrab, Camper, RSTJ, others, not in any order - sorry too many to refer each):

"Perp was a fanatical Christian murdered her at midnight - Barnhill's Bible study groupPsalm 118.

"He, Jehovah, is our Lord:
He, our God, on us hath shined:
Bind the sacrifice with cord,
To the horned altar bind."
It was during that party that someone called 911 and hung up. When the police called back they got a voice message, so they sent a cop to the Ramseys house. Susan Stine reportedly refused to open the door and got rid of the cop by telling him through the door that everything was okay.


Barnhill boarder Glen Myers was called back more than once for a handwriting sample

young Barnhill was in Boulder yet didn't let this be known to his parents

Schiller stated the dna "could match Barnhill Sr. if it was from two donors

Betty Barnhill had a key.


Jacques started staying over there, and when JonBenet wanted to see her dog, she went over and played with him.


So we've got some guy in Barnhill's basement with a heavy debt load, a murdered son in Boston, no alibi, a sighting of someone who was not JAR near the Ramsey house the evening of Dec 25th, and handwriting, hair samples, and polys, the results of the latter apparently not conclusive enough to stop ST from going *back* to the guy for more handwriting samples and hair.

somebody came looking for the Barnhills later in the evening, knocked on the door. I let him in, he said he was looking for Joe and Betty, he was worried about them.

JonBenet's bike was kept secret at the Barnhills. "Santa" had promised her a special secret visit, *after* Christmas.

Don't you think Barnhill would know if it was the "Boarder" or not? So, I don't believe it was the "Boarder" -
unless Barnhill was wrong or not telling the truth
It was the Ramseys' Detectives who told Barnhill he was wrong - it was not JAR because JAR was in GA.


You're looking for a perp, you look at this guy living in Barnhill's basement.. Or you could spend the next ten years "analyzing" that ransom note trying to "prove" Patsy Ramsey wrote it.

And as Camper pointed out, it certainly wasn't Barnhill's tenant, because he would have recognized him.
The missing traditional Christmas morning movie of the happy time of Christmas. Did it record someone who was not to be known to be in the home on Christmas?

Forgiveness for the killer, that would be ODD, so soon after the murder. This was attributed to JAR, someone needs to post a source for that, my olde thinking is that it was from a magazine interview with JAR. This scenario would fit the 'forgiveness' comment by JAR, so SOON after the murder.


No flap from the Ramseys wondering or using the 'detectives' to determine WHO it was.

WHY would the boarder/roomer have done such a crime? His own son had been murdered. wonder who his 'circle' of friends were? Did he work, I don't remember any information about where he worked or IF he worked.

I am quite certain that the Ramseys were VERY well known in their neighborhood, and peeked at through the curtains, by any numbers of neighbors.

dictionary was open to "incest"

What has already been established was JAR's semen was found at the crime scene - it was his suitcase, his flashlight, Barnhill states he saw JAR..

That does look like JAR in the photo of the dec 23d Christmas party but it turned out to be a boyfriend of one of Priscilla's sisters. So, maybe Barnhill saw the "boyfriend" (or someone else who looked like JR) and thought it was JAR going into the Ramsay home early in the evening of Dec 25."


Yes indeed, why was Barnhill's statement withdrawn or discounted. Or who looked like JR? Why did Barnhill Jr. change his alibi?

[Camper]

Rupert you surely did use a massive number of 'my' wonderments that I have previously posted.


From Ruperts post a portion here,

"Perp was a fanatical Christian murdered her at midnight - Barnhill's Bible study groupPsalm 118.

"He, Jehovah, is our Lord:
He, our God, on us hath shined:
Bind the sacrifice with cord,
To the horned altar bind."
It was during that party that someone called 911 and hung up. When the police called back they got a voice message, so they sent a cop to the Ramseys house. Susan Stine reportedly refused to open the door and got rid of the cop by telling him through the door that everything was okay.

Rupert, will you post a source for info on 'Barnhills' bible study group? I donut have a memory of Psalm 118 and Barnhills 'bible study group'. Thanks.

Another quote from Ruperts post

young Barnhill was in Boulder yet didn't let this be known to his parents
Rupert, again, would you post a source for this information, it is the first time I had read that Barnhills son was in Boulder.

My memory may have failed me on your posted info that Susan Stine 'refused' to open the door for the BPD on the 911 call of the 23rd. My memory seems to remember that it was more of a shoo go away, someone dialed 911 by mistake, everything is fine, shoo go away. Took artistic liberty with this one. Rupert, do you have a printed source for SS 'refusing' to open the door? Thanks.


.

[Jayelles]

The Barnhills and their son were estranged. I do recall reading that he had visited Boulder but didn't look them up because of the estrangement. Happens I guess.

I would have thought under these circumstances that 15th St would be the last place Barnhill Jnr would want to be - if he was avoiding his parents.

I wish there was some way of waving a magic wand to find out the truth.

[capps]

Yes, all so strange ...

Aside from the "person" walking up the drive way,that seems the LE dismissed quickly after they assumed it was not JAR ... the more unsettling to me was the boarder knocking on the door during the Ramsey's party,with an excuse of being "worried" about the Barnhill's. How close was Glen Myer to the Barnhill's? If close enough,he would have realized they were attending a party across the street. If not close ... why would a boarder be worried about them? Sounds like an awful feeble excuse to "crash" the party.

Also ... not very responsible of the Ramsey's to let a stranger,(John claims he did not know Barnhill's had a boarder until after JB was murdered),into the house.

Do you know who else was not responsible? The BPD for not stepping into the Ramsey's house after the first 911 call,to at least make a quick "look over" to make sure everything seemed okay.

[Toltec]

The Barnhills...a bible study??? Never heard that one before. That Barnhill Jr. was in town...hadn't heard that one either.

We did have a discussion about the DNA and one theory is that Joe Barnhill placed his hand on the bicycle seat as he removed it from the basement of his home and handed it over to John Ramsey. JonBenet did ride her new bike out on the patio Christmas day....so innocent transfer?

The Barnhills loved the Ramseys and vice versa. Joe Barnhill was too weak to pull this off.

Glenn Meyers knock on the door was innocent enough...he was looking for the Barnhills. They are both old and not in good health. Patsy was known to take them meals once or twice a week.

Joe Barnhill claims he saw JAR walking towards the Ramsey home and with enough prodding by Team Ramsey, recanted.

I guess we will never know who the young guy was but my guess would be one of JAR's college buddies. The Ramseys never testified that they received a visitor that day.

[capps]

The Barnhills...a bible study??? Never heard that one before. That Barnhill Jr. was in town...hadn't heard that one either.

We did have a discussion about the DNA and one theory is that Joe Barnhill placed his hand on the bicycle seat as he removed it from the basement of his home and handed it over to John Ramsey. JonBenet did ride her new bike out on the patio Christmas day....so innocent transfer?

The Barnhills loved the Ramseys and vice versa. Joe Barnhill was too weak to pull this off.

Glenn Meyers knock on the door was innocent enough...he was looking for the Barnhills. They are both old and not in good health. Patsy was known to take them meals once or twice a week.

Joe Barnhill claims he saw JAR walking towards the Ramsey home and with enough prodding by Team Ramsey, recanted.

I guess we will never know who the young guy was but my guess would be one of JAR's college buddies. The Ramseys never testified that they received a visitor that day.

Toltec,

No one knows if the knock on the door by GM looking for the Barnhill's was innocent or not.

Here is a snippet from the "Today Show" interview with Katic Couric and John Ramsey:

COURIC: You also mention Glen Myer, who was a boarder at your neighbor's house. He stopped by at your Christmas party...
Mr. RAMSEY: Mm-hmm.
COURIC: ...just a few days before.
Mr. RAMSEY: I mention him because he's been mentioned, also, publicly. We didn't know Glen Myer lived across the street from us until after JonBenet was murdered.

Patsy may have fixed meals for the Barnhill's,but not for GM,they didn't even know of him.

I know he was elderly,does anyone know how old he was,or have a source stating he was in bad health?

[bensmom98]

I know he was elderly,does anyone know how old he was,or have a source stating he was in bad health?


I seem to remember reading somewhere that he (the boarder) had been ill and was recovering from the flu. I cannot state where I read this, however.

[capps]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that he (the boarder) had been ill and was recovering from the flu. I cannot state where I read this, however.

Thanks Bensmom98,

I do vaguely remember hearing that as an alibi. But I was looking more for a long term type of illness: Bad heart,acutely arthritic,that sort of thing.Was he elderly,as in 80 yrs. old elderly?

I don't know if this boarder had anything to do with the murder,he may be completely innocent.Just trying to rule out, (if I can),anyone who seemed suspicious,or out of place.

[Zman]

What has already been established was JAR's semen was found at the crime scene - it was his suitcase, his flashlight, Barnhill states he saw JAR..
Was it his suitcase? I just thought it had his blanket inside. I have never seen it established anywhere that it was his suitcase.

I don't think it was his flashlight either. I have never seen it established anywhere that it was his flashlight. It only looks like one he gave his father as a present.

His semen found at the crime scene sounds much worse than his seman was found on his blanket. Now if JBR's blood was on his blanket you may have something. How long does seman stay around? How old could it of been? Can they tell? If so they have not told us.

This is three strikes and your out.

[BlueCrab]

Was it his suitcase? I just thought it had his blanket inside. I have never seen it established anywhere that it was his suitcase.

I don't think it was his flashlight either. I have never seen it established anywhere that it was his flashlight. It only looks like one he gave his father as a present.

His semen found at the crime scene sounds much worse than his seman was found on his blanket. Now if JBR's blood was on his blanket you may have something. How long does seman stay around? How old could it of been? Can they tell? If so they have not told us.

This is three strikes and your out.


Zman,

The suitcase was old and belonged to JAR. He used it to carry clothes and things between college and the Ramsey's house.

The black 3-cell Mag-lite brand flashlight was identified by Patsy as belonging to John. It had been given to John by JAR as a present. The Ramseys couldn't positively identify the light at first because in the photo they were shown the light had been chemically processed by the cops for fingerprints, which changed the color to a mottled gray.

The suitcase that contained JAR's semen-stained blanket was kept in the basement, which is considered a part of the crime scene. Why the blanket was in the suitcase, along with a Dr. Seuss book with JAR's name on it, and why fibers from the blanket were on JonBenet's genital area, are the $64,000 questions.

BlueCrab

[why_nutt]

Was he elderly,as in 80 yrs. old elderly?

On December 26th, 1996, Joe Barnhill was 76 years old.

Interesting bit of trivia: Barnhill became part of a Boulder oral history project in 2003, when he was interviewed about his role as a business owner in Boulder. He and Betty used to own an interior design business called Barnhill Interiors, which operated in Boulder starting in 1959 and lasting for 25 years. If anyone can make their way to the Boulder Public Library, you can see the videotape of his interview and apparently learn as much about the man as you would care to. The card catalog information can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/7ctaw

Looking at the summary, I can only think that John Ramsey must have been very envious of his neighbor. John only got to fly his little hobbyist airplanes for fun. Barnhill was a Navy dive-bomber pilot in World War II.

[Toltec]

Was it his suitcase? I just thought it had his blanket inside. I have never seen it established anywhere that it was his suitcase.

I don't think it was his flashlight either. I have never seen it established anywhere that it was his flashlight. It only looks like one he gave his father as a present.

His semen found at the crime scene sounds much worse than his seman was found on his blanket. Now if JBR's blood was on his blanket you may have something. How long does seman stay around? How old could it of been? Can they tell? If so they have not told us.

This is three strikes and your out.

It's become apparent to me that you are not reading any of the JBR books that are out. The questions that you ask are answered by either John or Patsy in the NE book. It contains the interrogations of both Ramseys.

[sissi]

The suitcase had been used by both LHP and JAR, there has been no "final" word as to who had it last.
The sheets didn't have to be sheets "left" in the suitcase, they could have been dirty sheets "left" in the dirty laundry to be washed.
Someone could have picked up these sheets to use in the crime , and packed them away in the suitcase for reasons we don't "know".
I believe I have read where there were fibers transferred from the crime, both on the contents of the suitcase and on her body.

[capps]

On December 26th, 1996, Joe Barnhill was 76 years old.

Interesting bit of trivia: Barnhill became part of a Boulder oral history project in 2003, when he was interviewed about his role as a business owner in Boulder. He and Betty used to own an interior design business called Barnhill Interiors, which operated in Boulder starting in 1959 and lasting for 25 years. If anyone can make their way to the Boulder Public Library, you can see the videotape of his interview and apparently learn as much about the man as you would care to. The card catalog information can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/7ctaw

Looking at the summary, I can only think that John Ramsey must have been very envious of his neighbor. John only got to fly his little hobbyist airplanes for fun. Barnhill was a Navy dive-bomber pilot in World War II.

why_nutt,

Thanks for looking that up. But when I asked about age and health,I was inquiring about the boarder,not the Barnhill's.

I don't think the Barnhill's were involved at all wih JB's murder. I don't know enough about GM to check him off my list.

[capps]

I think Zman had a valid question when asking how old the semen was. Does anyone know if it was tested,and what the results were?

[BlueCrab]

I think Zman had a valid question when asking how old the semen was. Does anyone know if it was tested,and what the results were?


Yes, it is a good question. The only thing I could find was this from an article on high-tech forensic criminology in the Great Falls Tribune, published May 30, 2005:

"Because scientists can't determine when the DNA was deposited, its presence simply places the person it belongs to at the scene."

greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.d11/article?AID=/2005

[Eagle1]

As you said, you've used some ideas from all of us. I recognize some of mine.

If the walker who so resembled JAR were Barnhill's son, you know he would not have thought of JAR.

And as one former poster, MJenn, theorized, complete with a very detailed time frame showing that it was POSSIBLE, JAR could have been there a little while, not that I'd want to start that up again. Wasn't the walker wearing a long overcoat? And so did the loiterer at the Charlevoix gas station, badmouthing John Ramsey, who also flagged down the ill driver of a van, having run across someone's yard, to get a ride? Wasn't he still wearing the overcoat? Someone correct me if that's wrong.

The ATM photo did not ID anyone, didn't prove JAR was in Atlanta at that particular moment. It just showed the top of a baseball cap, someone looking down, if I remember correctly. OTOH, if JAR had been around, I doubt the perp would have planted his unwashed blanket and Dr.Seuss book in the suitcase because what if he'd walked in and found it?

The blanket was obviously a plant, like the dictionary open to the word "incest" which ST(?) said wasn't seen until pictures were developed. Nobody seemed to have seen it before, according to the book.

If JAR and/or the parents were guilty they certainly would know not to leave such things lying around pointing to them!

[narlacat]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that he (the boarder) had been ill and was recovering from the flu. I cannot state where I read this, however.
pg 78 from ST's book.

[Camper]

On December 26th, 1996, Joe Barnhill was 76 years old.

Interesting bit of trivia: Barnhill became part of a Boulder oral history project in 2003, when he was interviewed about his role as a business owner in Boulder. He and Betty used to own an interior design business called Barnhill Interiors, which operated in Boulder starting in 1959 and lasting for 25 years. If anyone can make their way to the Boulder Public Library, you can see the videotape of his interview and apparently learn as much about the man as you would care to. The card catalog information can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/7ctaw

Looking at the summary, I can only think that John Ramsey must have been very envious of his neighbor. John only got to fly his little hobbyist airplanes for fun. Barnhill was a Navy dive-bomber pilot in World War II.


Thank you for this information. I note that in the description of the video contents, it only lists Betty Barnhill, it does not list Joe with the other people shown in the content, do you know if Joe has passed on? Joe was one year younger than my husband who died in 2004. I note the video was done in 2003. I also know that my husband was not a fruit loop in 1996, and that Joe wasn't either with the background that he had for 'detail'.

I have zero doubt that Joe actually saw JAR walking up to the Ramsey home on Christmas day 1996.



.

[why_nutt]

Thank you for this information. I note that in the description of the video contents, it only lists Betty Barnhill, it does not list Joe with the other people shown in the content, do you know if Joe has passed on?

I believe Joe is still with us, but Betty is not, she has passed on. I was confused, too, by the summary listing Betty, but I now know that this just means that Joe talked about the people and places listed in the summary, so he likely first talks on the tape about how he met Betty and what his life with her was like as an aspect of describing his own life.

[Rupert]

The Barnhills and their son were estranged. I do recall reading that he had visited Boulder but didn't look them up because of the estrangement. Happens I guess.

I would have thought under these circumstances that 15th St would be the last place Barnhill Jnr would want to be - if he was avoiding his parents.

I wish there was some way of waving a magic wand to find out the truth.First I want to repeat that I started the thread with quotations from other threads, so sorry if I can't answer promptly (or at all) on a number of sources. I am trying to search them out as well.

Does anyone know what church the Barnhills might have been affiliated with?

What I find intriguing is why JBS would say one thing about (someone looking like) JAR approaching the house and later change his story. Why (mistake, truth or...)?

Then I find it doubly intriguing, that JBJ was estranged from his family.
Was he in fact in Boulder at Christmas? Did he in fact lie about his alibi of being outside of Boulder at this time?

Also, on the DNA, isn't there the family tree thing?

[capps]

Yes, it is a good question. The only thing I could find was this from an article on high-tech forensic criminology in the Great Falls Tribune, published May 30, 2005:

"Because scientists can't determine when the DNA was deposited, its presence simply places the person it belongs to at the scene."

greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.d11/article?AID=/2005

BlueCrab,

Thank you for looking that up. I tried opening the link,but it said page cannot be found.
So,I just spent about an hour searching for more info,and like you,I didn't find much.

[Camper]

Thank you why_nutt.


.

[Zman]

It's become apparent to me that you are not reading any of the JBR books that are out. The questions that you ask are answered by either John or Patsy in the NE book. It contains the interrogations of both Ramseys.
JR said In his 6/98 interview that the suitcase belonged to his ex-wife if I remember right. JAR may of used it to bring things back and forth from college. Funny finding seman stains on a college boys blanket.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a

17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.

18 It was right up against the wall?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that

21 down. When did you?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months

23 before, two months before. It was one of these big

24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids

25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older

0155

1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't

2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to

3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.

4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the

5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to

6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in

7 this room here


The flashlight? I still see no where in any book where they admit to it without a doubt being their flashlight. Only that it could be.

But you could save me a lot or rereading if you give the book and page number.

[Rupert]

The suitcase that contained JAR's semen-stained blanket was kept in the basement, which is considered a part of the crime scene. Why the blanket was in the suitcase, along with a Dr. Seuss book with JAR's name on it, and why fibers from the blanket were on JonBenet's genital area, are the $64,000 questions.
I also recall this "fibre" connection of the suitcase to the crime and never really looked into it. If indeed there was such a connection, you would think it would have been made much more public. Either the perp could not take the suitcase through the window, or the perp needed to hide the blanket in the suitcase, or it was planted. Seems to have a focus on JAR (or his comings and goings to the university campus), regardless IDI or RDI. Seems it might also to have some focus on LHP.

Mysterious, but if in fact there is a "fibre" connection, then we know that the perp opened and closed that suitcase. I understand JR moved it around.

[tipper]

[...]
Mysterious, but if in fact there is a "fibre" connection, then we know that the perp opened and closed that suitcase. I understand JR moved it around.
I thought it was Fleet who moved it around?

[sissi]

I haven't read anything pointing to fibers from the blanket being on her genitals,BC, however I have read that there were fibers found in that suitcase that were found on her clothing. We probably need a "refresher"..... fibers from the rope found on her bed? fibers from the blanket found on bedding in the suitcase? I won't pretend to remember this , and am hoping someone can point me toward some "refresher" info.

oh..and this is NOT A PROVEN fact, but interesting nonetheless,
it has been suggested dna x could have been dna from the "hair"

[Rupert]

That's right sissi. We need a refresher.

If FW was the only person that moved it around, interesting. FW opened the door.

Barnhill thought he saw JAR and and one of FW's guests looked like JAR.

Hmmm.

[aussiesheila]

Barnhill thought he saw JAR and and one of FW's guests looked like JAR.

Rupert, please could you post where you came across this piece of information. I have not heard of this before. Did someone who knew both FW's guest and JAR say this or is it someone else's observation based on photographs? Or what?

[Zman]

JR said In his 6/98 interview that the suitcase belonged to his ex-wife if I remember right. JAR may of used it to bring things back and forth from college. Funny finding seman stains on a college boys blanket.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a

17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.

18 It was right up against the wall?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that

21 down. When did you?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months

23 before, two months before. It was one of these big

24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids

25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older

0155

1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't

2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to

3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.

4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the

5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to

6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in

7 this room here


The flashlight? I still see no where in any book where they admit to it without a doubt being their flashlight. Only that it could be.

But you could save me a lot or rereading if you give the book and page number.
Still waiting.

[tipper]

Still waiting.There may be more references to it but this is what I found in a quick search

You should download the whole interview as a word file.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm (http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm)

22 LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you
23 have?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess.
25 One that, I believe, came up as an item was this
0145

1 MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it
2 is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a
3 year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar.
4 The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.
25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight
0242

1 that you have or does --
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It
3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it
4 could have been the same one.
5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the
6 flashlight?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight
9 appear to be here?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen
11 counter.
12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram
13 where that is?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)
15 is right there.
16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got
17 there?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.
21 LOU SMIT: Did you use a flashlight at all
22 that morning to look for JonBenet?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. There was
24 no reason to turn the lights on. I wouldn't even
25 bet that our flashlight worked. If I were to bet,
0243

1 I'll bet it wouldn't work. We just didn't keep up
2 with that.
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was a smaller one.
10 You've got to show this to John Andrew. He might
11 remember because he bought it for me.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when he got it for
13 you?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was like a father's
15 day or birthday or Christmas present. It may have
16 been a year or two before. And it looks kind of
17 big. But it could have been the same one.

[tipper]

I also recall this "fibre" connection of the suitcase to the crime and never really looked into it. If indeed there was such a connection, you would think it would have been made much more public. Either the perp could not take the suitcase through the window, or the perp needed to hide the blanket in the suitcase, or it was planted. Seems to have a focus on JAR (or his comings and goings to the university campus), regardless IDI or RDI. Seems it might also to have some focus on LHP.

Mysterious, but if in fact there is a "fibre" connection, then we know that the perp opened and closed that suitcase. I understand JR moved it around.Steve Thomas’s book, Hardcover & ppbk page 20:


White went downstairs. The lights were on, and the shadows danced in the big basement. A small broken window in a large room where a model railroad was laid out caught his attention, and on the floor beneath the window he found a piece of glass, which he placed on the ledge. He dropped to his hands and knees, searching for other pieces of glass and moved a suitcase in doing so. Unknowingly, he was altering a vital part of the crime scene. In the coming months, claims would be made that a mysterious intruder came through that window and used the suitcase as a step.

John 1998 Interview

1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there
2 was
3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was
5 positioned?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think
7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the
8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I
9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --
10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you loc
11 it or close it?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little
13 latch on it.
14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?
[...]

12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have
13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all
15 the way back there and put it against the window.
16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a
17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.
18 It was right up against the wall?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that
21 down. When did you?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months
23 before, two months before. It was one of these big
24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids
25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older
0155
1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't
2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to
3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.
4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the
5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to
6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in
7 this room here.
8 LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall
10 area.
11 LOU SMIT: Okay.
12 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm 99.9 percent taken I
13 wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it
14 against that wall.

[BlueCrab]

Steve Thomas?s book, Hardcover & ppbk page 20:


White went downstairs. The lights were on, and the shadows danced in the big basement. A small broken window in a large room where a model railroad was laid out caught his attention, and on the floor beneath the window he found a piece of glass, which he placed on the ledge. He dropped to his hands and knees, searching for other pieces of glass and moved a suitcase in doing so. Unknowingly, he was altering a vital part of the crime scene. In the coming months, claims would be made that a mysterious intruder came through that window and used the suitcase as a step.

John 1998 Interview

1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there
2 was
3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.
4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was
5 positioned?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think
7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the
8 window, as I recall.
[/size]



The testimony about the suitcase appears to contain another verbal slip by John Ramsey.

Fleet White searched the basement at about 6:15 AM and moved the suitcase from under the window so he could search for glass fragments. But four hours later when John Ramsey supposedly searched the basement around 10:00 AM he says the suitcase was against the wall and directly under the window.

If John saw the suitcase against the wall directly under the window then that had to have occurred PRIOR to Fleet White's search at 6:15 AM. Fleet moved the suitcase away from the window at that time.

It's further evidence that John Ramsey, despite denying it, had been in the basement prior to Fleet White's search at 9:15 AM and prior to Patsy calling 911 at 5:52 AM. It appears John has been caught in another lie.

BlueCrab

[tipper]

We went through this recently. Do you remember the name of the thread?

[BlueCrab]

We went through this recently. Do you remember the name of the thread?


tipper,

This event is a little different, and is additional proof that John had been in the basement prior to making the 911 call, even though he denies it.

The other event that was recently discussed was in regard to the chair in front of the train room door. John said when he slipped unnoticed into the basement and searched at 10:00 AM there was a chair he had to move to get into the train room. Yet, Officer Rick French and Fleet White each searched the train room a little past 6:00 AM and there was no chair there. John had apparently let something verbally slip that he shouldn't. If John had moved the chair, it had to have been PRIOR to 6:00 AM because the chair wasn't blocking the door at 6:00 AM.

John is repeating a similar verbal slip with respect to the suitcase. He said when he secretly went down into the basement by himself at about 10:00 AM the suitcase was against the wall and directly under the window. But Fleet had moved the suitcase at 6:15 AM while searching for broken glass. If John saw the suitcase against the wall directly under the window, it had to have been PRIOR to 6:00 AM. and not 10:00 AM because Fleet had moved the suitcase at 6:15 AM.

John being tripped up about the chair in front of the train room door and the suitcase under the window is proof that John Ramsey is lying about not searching the basement prior to calling 911 at 5:52 AM. He searched the basement early that morning all right, just as any father would have done, and he likely found JonBenet. After finding the body, probably about 2 hours before Patsy made the 911 call at 5:52 AM, the Ramseys completed the staging and initiated the coverup -- obviously to protect a Ramsey family member who had just killed JonBenet.

The locations of the chair and the suitcase, and John's own inadvertent admissions during the police interviews, is convincing evidence John was in the basement long before the 911 call was made. John had to have been lying when he claimed he wasn't in the basement prior to the 911 call.

Therefore, a Ramsey is likely involved in the death of JonBenet; the body was staged to try to mask the sexual aspects of the crime; the fake ransom note was intended to shift the blame to an intruder; and Patsy's 911 call was a performance and not sincere.

John's lies about the chair and the suitcase prove it.

BlueCrab

[Zman]

There may be more references to it but this is what I found in a quick search

You should download the whole interview as a word file.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm (http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm)

22 LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you
23 have?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess.
25 One that, I believe, came up as an item was this
0145

1 MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it
2 is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a
3 year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar.
4 The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.
25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight
0242

1 that you have or does --
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It
3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it
4 could have been the same one.
5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the
6 flashlight?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight
9 appear to be here?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen
11 counter.
12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram
13 where that is?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)
15 is right there.
16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got
17 there?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.
21 LOU SMIT: Did you use a flashlight at all
22 that morning to look for JonBenet?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. There was
24 no reason to turn the lights on. I wouldn't even
25 bet that our flashlight worked. If I were to bet,
0243

1 I'll bet it wouldn't work. We just didn't keep up
2 with that.
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was a smaller one.
10 You've got to show this to John Andrew. He might
11 remember because he bought it for me.
12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when he got it for
13 you?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was like a father's
15 day or birthday or Christmas present. It may have
16 been a year or two before. And it looks kind of
17 big. But it could have been the same one.
No need to download it I have it on file. I don't see anywhere in the above answers JR admiting that this flashlight is his, only that it could be his.

JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It
3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it
4 could have been the same one.

[Toltec]

Okay....did John say he placed the suitcase in the laundry room, or the hallway leading to the laundry room???

Patsy testified that the last place she saw the suitcase was in the boiler room....

The suitcase is kind of like the ransom note...traveling hither and yon.

[tipper]

It sounds like they may be talking about the same general area:


1998
8 LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall
10 area.
11 LOU SMIT: Okay.
1998
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, somewhere back like kind
25 of over in here, by the -- where the hot water heater
0414
1 area was is another little area. I thought it was more
2 in here. Unless Linda moved it over here when she put
3 the paint stuff there, I don't know. That looks out of
4 place.
5 TOM HANEY: You are thinking it was last in
6 that area between the wine cellar and the bathroom by
7 the stairs.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, that little door there.
9 TOM HANEY: Were there other suitcases or
36

[tipper]

[...]Fleet White searched the basement at about 6:15 AM and moved the suitcase from under the window so he could search for glass fragments. [...]

BlueCrabST p 20.
"By the time the sun rose at 6:30, the Whites and Fernies had arrived to comfort their friends. [...]

As if to demonstrate that problem, Fleet White stepped away from the little group attending the Ramseys and took a walk inside the house, certainly with the best of intentions. [...] Maybe JonBenet was doing the same thing, just playfully hiding somewhere.

White went downstairs."

It was after 6:30 when Fleet started his walk inside the house.

'Best of intentions' according to what proof?

Did he and ST think it possible JonBenet was 'playfully hiding' after she 'playfully' wrote the 3 page note?

[BlueCrab]

ST p 20.
"By the time the sun rose at 6:30, the Whites and Fernies had arrived to comfort their friends. [...]

As if to demonstrate that problem, Fleet White stepped away from the little group attending the Ramseys and took a walk inside the house, certainly with the best of intentions. [...] Maybe JonBenet was doing the same thing, just playfully hiding somewhere.

White went downstairs."

It was after 6:30 when Fleet started his walk inside the house.

'Best of intentions' according to what proof?

Did he and ST think it possible JonBenet was 'playfully hiding' after she 'playfully' wrote the 3 page note?





Tipper,

Fleet White searched the house amost immediately after getting there, which would have been about 6:15 AM. It was still pitch black outside. Sunrise in Boulder on the 26th was 7:20 AM, not 6:30 AM.

[tipper]

Talk to ST. He says Fleet searched after 6:30.

[Jayelles]

Talk to ST. He says Fleet searched after 6:30.
Have you missed out the bit which says Fleet went downstairs AFTER 6.30?

I can see where he says the sun rose at 6.30am and I can see that he alludes to the fact that the Whites and Fernies were already there at that point and I can see where he mentions the fact that at some point Fleet White had broken away from the group and had gone downstairs. I can also see where you have indicated missing parts of the quote.

[Rupert]

It's kind of gone from Barnhill to the suitcase & chair, but so good.

Bluecrab, I would like to be very careful here, because if what you say is true, either JR or FW are lying (or perhaps somebody else is playing musical chairs and suitcases).

To recap FW goes to the basement at 6:30 and moves both the chair and the suitcase. Later at 10:00, JR goes to the basement and finds the chair blocking the door and the suitcase directly under the window.

We need to be accurate about how far FW actually moved each item, but I guess that would be pushing it. After all, the chair was either blocking the door or it wasn't. The suitcase was either directly under the window next to the wall or it wasn't. I don't recall any discussion by JR about the suitcase being abit away from the wall. That would not make it a stable step. So yes, I think you have presented two situations where FW and JR are at odds.

Of course the 3rd contradictory situation is FW opening the cellar door and not seeing JB with her white blanket. I have said this before, I find it hard to believe that FW would have missed her if she was there. I think either FW was lying or JB was moved in there after. Then we have officer RF who didn't bother to open the cellar door. Why?

Surely we would have heard if RF contradicted FW. Does anyone know more on that? If JR contradicts both FW and RF, well then.

[BlueCrab]

It's kind of gone from Barnhill to the suitcase & chair, but so good.

Bluecrab, I would like to be very careful here, because if what you say is true, either JR or FW are lying (or perhaps somebody else is playing musical chairs and suitcases).

To recap FW goes to the basement at 6:30 and moves both the chair and the suitcase. Later at 10:00, JR goes to the basement and finds the chair blocking the door and the suitcase directly under the window.

We need to be accurate about how far FW actually moved each item, but I guess that would be pushing it. After all, the chair was either blocking the door or it wasn't. The suitcase was either directly under the window next to the wall or it wasn't. I don't recall any discussion by JR about the suitcase being abit away from the wall. That would not make it a stable step. So yes, I think you have presented two situations where FW and JR are at odds.

Of course the 3rd contradictory situation is FW opening the cellar door and not seeing JB with her white blanket. I have said this before, I find it hard to believe that FW would have missed her if she was there. I think either FW was lying or JB was moved in there after. Then we have officer RF who didn't bother to open the cellar door. Why?

Surely we would have heard if RF contradicted FW. Does anyone know more on that? If JR contradicts both FW and RF, well then.



Rupert,

There are three major contradictions that prove John Ramsey was in the basement prior to 6:00 AM that morning.

John Ramsey is lying, not Officer Rick French and Fleet White. John was in the basement PRIOR to 6:00 AM, and here's why:

1. THE CHAIR: John Ramsey admitted he had to move the chair to get into the trainroom. Rick French and Fleet White did not have to move the chair at 6:00 AM and 6:15 AM respectively. The chair had already been moved earlier by John.

2. THE SUITCASE: John Ramsey admitted the suitcase was up against the the wall and directly under the window. The suitcase wasn't moved until about 6:15 AM when Fleet White searched the basement and admitted moving it from directly under the window to search for shards of glass. So John had to have seen the suitcase prior to Fleet moving it at 6:15 AM.

3. THE WINDOW: John Ramsey admitted he closed and latched the basement window (he says at 10 or 11 AM). But Rick French at 6:00 AM and Fleet White at 6:15 AM did not notice an open basement window, even though it was one of the things they were looking for in the basement (there's only two windows in the basement). So John had to have closed and latched the basement window prior to 6:00 AM.

John Ramsey was lying on all three counts.

BlueCrab

[Zman]

Rupert,

There are three major contradictions that prove John Ramsey was in the basement prior to 6:00 AM that morning.

John Ramsey is lying, not Officer Rick French and Fleet White. John was in the basement PRIOR to 6:00 AM, and here's why:

1. THE CHAIR: John Ramsey admitted he had to move the chair to get into the trainroom. Rick French and Fleet White did not have to move the chair at 6:00 AM and 6:15 AM respectively. The chair had already been moved earlier by John.

2. THE SUITCASE: John Ramsey admitted the suitcase was up against the the wall and directly under the window. The suitcase wasn't moved until about 6:15 AM when Fleet White searched the basement and admitted moving it from directly under the window to search for shards of glass. So John had to have seen the suitcase prior to Fleet moving it at 6:15 AM.

3. THE WINDOW: John Ramsey admitted he closed and latched the basement window (he says at 10 or 11 AM). But Rick French at 6:00 AM and Fleet White at 6:15 AM did not notice an open basement window, even though it was one of the things they were looking for in the basement (there's only two windows in the basement). So John had to have closed and latched the basement window prior to 6:00 AM.

John Ramsey was lying on all three counts.

BlueCrabSo what your saying is FW searched the basement and moved a suitcase to search for broken glass underneath a window he didn't notice. He had to notice it. He had to at least think it was broken! Why else would he be searching for glass? Would you look for glass from a window that wasn't broken? Which also would be a "way in" for an intruder. Why did he not tell OF or report it to anyone?

Maybe FW was searching for something else. Maybe something he left there earlier. Something he just can't seem to find.

Twist that one around for me.

[BlueCrab]

So what your saying is FW searched the basement and moved a suitcase to search for broken glass underneath a window he didn't notice. He had to notice it. He had to at least think it was broken! Why else would he be searching for glass? Would you look for glass from a window that wasn't broken? Which also would be a "way in" for an intruder. Why did he not tell OF or report it to anyone?

Maybe FW was searching for something else. Maybe something he left there earlier. Something he just can't seem to find.

Twist that one around for me.


Zman,

I never said Fleet White didn't notice the window. I said the window wasn't OPEN because Fleet would have noticed it being open, and the same applies to Rick French. Neither French at 6:00 AM nor White at 6:15 AM reported the window as being open, because it WASN'T open. Only John Ramsey saw an open window, and he admitted he closed and latched it. Therefore, John Ramsey had to have been in the basement PRIOR to 6:00 AM to have seen an open window and to have closed and latched it.

BlueCrab

[Zman]

Zman,

I never said Fleet White didn't notice the window. I said the window wasn't OPEN because Fleet would have noticed it being open, and the same applies to Rick French. Neither French at 6:00 AM nor White at 6:15 AM reported the window as being open, because it WASN'T open. Only John Ramsey saw an open window, and he admitted he closed and latched it. Therefore, John Ramsey had to have been in the basement PRIOR to 6:00 AM to have seen an open window and to have closed and latched it.

BlueCrabWhat difference does it make if the window was open or not? One of them must have been broken. Why else would FW be looking for glass? And maybe I'm wrong about this but a broken window is an open window, and needs to be reported to LE as soon as possible.

Unless FW knew the window was broken a long time ago and was looking for glass to see if it was a new break. And if he knew the window was already broken that means he knew how to get in and out of the house before the murder of JBR.

Not to mention how far that window may have been open. Maybe just enough for the homeowner to notice but not enough for others like LE officers and friends who miss dead bodies 10 ft from them.

[tipper]

7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went

8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.

9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a

10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old

11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,

12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe

13 that far.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far

15 were

16 you? An inch?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It

18 was cracked open.

[Eagle1]

This thread answers several questions posed in the thread about New Book coming out in the spring. I found it again while looking in my subscriptions for the List of Evidences thread. Anyone who's recently been there know what page that is, the List of Evidences? Thanks in advance.

[aussiesheila]

That does look like JAR in the photo of the dec 23d Christmas party but it turned out to be a boyfriend of one of Priscilla's sisters. So, maybe Barnhill saw the "boyfriend" (or someone else who looked like JR) and thought it was JAR going into the Ramsay home early in the evening of Dec 25."



That's it!!! Barnhill definitely saw someone. At the time he thought it was JAR. But it was subsequently established that JAR was not in Boulder at the time so it couldn't have been him.

I have been thinking for a long time that the person he saw could have been CW boyfriend of JD or CG boyfriend of AS and I've asked people before if they knew what either of them looked like. And now I've come across this, someone and I don't know who has posted that based on what they saw in the photo of the December 23 party, that one of Priscilla's sisters had a boyfriend who looked like JAR!!!

Now I am convinced - the person Barnhill saw was CG, boyfriend of AS, sister of PW, wife of FW, and he was 'casing' the Ramsey house at 5 pm on December 25 prior to the planned midnight visit to the Ramsey basement by a group of pedophiles of which he was one.

IMO

[aussiesheila]

Yes, all so strange ...

... the more unsettling to me was the boarder knocking on the door during the Ramsey's party,with an excuse of being "worried" about the Barnhill's. How close was Glen Myer to the Barnhill's? If close enough,he would have realized they were attending a party across the street. If not close ... why would a boarder be worried about them? Sounds like an awful feeble excuse to "crash" the party.
Exactly what I thought when I first read this. I immediately put him on my 'Highly Suspect' list and he has remained there ever since. I would love to know what he has been up to since he left Boulder, when was it?... May '97?

I thought his alibi was very feeble too. How convenient to be in bed with the flu all night. Was anyone else ever questioned about how he appeared that day and the day after? Did he appear ill? Did the police bother to check his rubbish bin for discarded pain killer wrappers?

[Camper]

That's it!!! Barnhill definitely saw someone. At the time he thought it was JAR. But it was subsequently established that JAR was not in Boulder at the time so it couldn't have been him.

I have been thinking for a long time that the person he saw could have been CW boyfriend of JD or CG boyfriend of AS and I've asked people before if they knew what either of them looked like. And now I've come across this, someone and I don't know who has posted that based on what they saw in the photo of the December 23 party, that one of Priscilla's sisters had a boyfriend who looked like JAR!!!

Now I am convinced - the person Barnhill saw was CG, boyfriend of AS, sister of PW, wife of FW, and he was 'casing' the Ramsey house at 5 pm on December 25 prior to the planned midnight visit to the Ramsey basement by a group of pedophiles of which he was one.

IMO




------->>>Rupert and aussiesheila, IF WE are to support both of your suspects, the B's boarder or boyfriend. I have to ask and to know WHAT PREVIOUS exposure/encounters with JonBenet PRIOR to Christmas Day did they have with her? When did they discuss a 'possible' secret visit AFTER Christmas with her?

WAS the bf alone with JonBenet long enough to get this 'secret' visit off the ground in her mind? Same question for the boarder.

Do you think JonBenet had been introduced, and had previously met the bf, BEFORE the W's Christmas party? IF so, when where how many times etc. I have been on and off the boards WAS the bf at the Ramsey party of the 23rd?

==================
PLease recall that women who have come forward in later years to explain what happend when they were being sexually abused by their own fathers or ANYONE for that matter, was that they were convinced it was their secret or 'IT WAS to be kept a secret'. How might this play into the eventual murder? DID the three trips to the school nurse by JOnBenet, that the keep it a secret, was in play then? All three visits were in the month of Dec. before Christmas and after weekends at home. HOW long had the Christmas visitors been at the W's? was PW sis there with BF at beginning of Christmas er? OR did all the visitors come together at the same time or the beginning of Dec,?

.

[sissi]

Who left the Christmas party with Fleet ? It was said he left to go carolling.

[Eagle1]

Isn't there a link to pictures in the sticky titled Links and Resources? I'll try to find the party picture. We had it at the old Justice Watch forum which closed down, I remember, and because the boarder, GM, sort of crashed the party, I sort of doubt he was in the picture. Which wasn't everyone. I just read somewhere there were about 100 people there.

I tend to agree with Rupert that the lookalike was one of FW's California visitors, but I forget where I originally got that idea. Glad I found Rupert's thread yesterday, looking for the list of evidences, which helps with this thread but I never did find the list of evidences, wasn't subscribed and may have to go through a lot more pages.

If it was the Ca. guest, would he have gone to Waterford, Mi. to arrange a boating accident? I have no idea. :confused:

[aussiesheila]

------->>>Rupert and aussiesheila, IF WE are to support both of your suspects, the B's boarder or boyfriend. I have to ask and to know WHAT PREVIOUS exposure/encounters with JonBenet PRIOR to Christmas Day did they have with her? When did they discuss a 'possible' secret visit AFTER Christmas with her?

WAS the bf alone with JonBenet long enough to get this 'secret' visit off the ground in her mind? Same question for the boarder.

Do you think JonBenet had been introduced, and had previously met the bf, BEFORE the W's Christmas party? IF so, when where how many times etc. I have been on and off the boards WAS the bf at the Ramsey party of the 23rd?.Camper,
Where on earth did you get the idea that I have theorised that either GM or CG said anything to JonBenet about a secret visit by Santa. I have never even entertained such a ludicrous thought.

What I HAVE said is that Santa told her about the secret vist by Santa.

If you read my theory (Members' Theory no 16) you will find that I have a group of suspects that I think were present at her murder and that one of them tightened the garotte and another bashed her over the head, leaving two or three others who were present but not actually responsible for the murder.

I have read that both CG and GM were present at the December 23 party, both self-invited it seems. I imagine CG came to the party because he was interested in viewing this child that he had heard about through his contact with the pedophile group, and that GM came mainly to check the place out since I'm sure he would have had plenty of opportunities to perv on JonBenet when she came to the Barnhills to play with Jacques.


==================
PLease recall that women who have come forward in later years to explain what happend when they were being sexually abused by their own fathers or ANYONE for that matter, was that they were convinced it was their secret or 'IT WAS to be kept a secret'. How might this play into the eventual murder? DID the three trips to the school nurse by JOnBenet, that the keep it a secret, was in play then? All three visits were in the month of Dec. before Christmas and after weekends at home. HOW long had the Christmas visitors been at the W's? was PW sis there with BF at beginning of Christmas er? OR did all the visitors come together at the same time or the beginning of Dec,?

.Yes Camper, there is no need for you to remind me of what victims of childhood sexual abuse suffer and the way they play right into the hands of the pedophiles, I can assure you. Why do you think I keep posting here? Everything about this case hinges around childhood sexual abuse and its appalling consequences IMO.

JonBenet never spoke out. Just like so many of them. It is utterly, utterly tragic. In JonBenet's case it resulted in her murder, although mercifully this is not the case for most victims. Yes, she visited the school nurse 3 times. So why didn't the school nurse raise the alarm? Apathy? Too much trouble? She is just another one who might have prevented this final terrible event. But she let JonBenet down too, just as did Patsy and Patsy's mother and Patsy's sisters and certain wives who all must have suspected something but did nothing IMO.

[tipper]

[...] Yes, she visited the school nurse 3 times. So why didn't the school nurse raise the alarm? Apathy? Too much trouble? She is just another one who might have prevented this final terrible event. But she let JonBenet down too, just as did Patsy and Patsy's mother and Patsy's sisters and certain wives who all must have suspected something but did nothing IMO.Has it ever been confirmed why she visited the nurse?

[aussiesheila]

I tend to agree with Rupert that the lookalike was one of FW's California visitors, but I forget where I originally got that idea. Glad I found Rupert's thread yesterday, looking for the list of evidences, which helps with this thread but I never did find the list of evidences, wasn't subscribed and may have to go through a lot more pages.Actually Eagle1, I don't think this was Rupert's idea, it was someone else's (but I don't know who) that he said he was quoting.

If it was the Ca. guest, would he have gone to Waterford, Mi. to arrange a boating accident? I have no idea. :confused:Eagle1, just a friendly suggestion, (he, he) you would find things a lot easier to explain if you give up this idea of there being only ONE perpetrator. IMO there were a number of perpetrators, and they in turn have been helped in the coverup by a multitude (well, maybe not quite) of parties who are linked by a common interest which they are all desperate to keep hidden.

[aussiesheila]

Has it ever been confirmed why she visited the nurse?Oh heck tipper, you've caught me out. I'm not sure, I've read it somewhere but I don't know for certain that it is an absolute fact. Sorry.

[Camper]

aussiesheila, I do believe that if you RE READ my post #52 carefully, I did not put things the way that you appear to have interpreted them.

I merely state that IF one of the W's guests had access to JonBenet, could they have set up the 'secret visit by Santa'. Questions I have posed are whether the guests were even in town during the three weeks of visits by JonBenet after weekends at home PRIOR to Christmas. IF they were around, then potential for secret talks about secret visit are a possibility.

WE do not know what DATE JonBenet told her little friend about the SECRET visit to come AFTER Christmas, do WE?

IF we knew the exact date of this little conversation by two little girls, this might pinpoint WHO had told JonBenet of the UPCOMING secret visit etc.

I would see no use of the school nurse to HOLLER child abuse and call in the AUTHORITIES IF IF IF the little girl merely had a sore bottom, and a history of doctor visit problems anyhow, and no other signs. The school nurse may have called the Ramsey home and talked with someone about the FREQUENT visits, OR she could have left a message on an answering machine, that could have been heard by anyone in the R home. Hmmm. IF IF IF the school nurse did that. I have to wonder why or how we knew that information anyway.

I have forgotten any source, but it was posted by Zaniah a poster on WS, a very long time ago. Zaniah was not a poster who just made things up. She was extremely thorough in her postings.


,

[aussiesheila]

Who left the Christmas party with Fleet ? It was said he left to go carolling.I haven't heard about this. Sounds interesting. Please tell us more if you can. Thanks sissi.

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila, I do believe that if you RE READ my post #52 carefully, I did not put things the way that you appear to have interpreted them.

I merely state that IF one of the W's guests had access to JonBenet, could they have set up the 'secret visit by Santa'. Questions I have posed are whether the guests were even in town during the three weeks of visits by JonBenet after weekends at home PRIOR to Christmas. IF they were around, then potential for secret talks about secret visit are a possibility.

WE do not know what DATE JonBenet told her little friend about the SECRET visit to come AFTER Christmas, do WE?

IF we knew the exact date of this little conversation by two little girls, this might pinpoint WHO had told JonBenet of the UPCOMING secret visit etc.

I would see no use of the school nurse to HOLLER child abuse and call in the AUTHORITIES IF IF IF the little girl merely had a sore bottom, and a history of doctor visit problems anyhow, and no other signs. The school nurse may have called the Ramsey home and talked with someone about the FREQUENT visits, OR she could have left a message on an answering machine, that could have been heard by anyone in the R home. Hmmm. IF IF IF the school nurse did that. I have to wonder why or how we knew that information anyway.

I have forgotten any source, but it was posted by Zaniah a poster on WS, a very long time ago. Zaniah was not a poster who just made things up. She was extremely thorough in her postings.


,OK Camper. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post.

I don't see the point in discussing the people you mention in relation to the secret visit by Santa as the only person I think would have told JonBenet about the visit would have been Santa himself and he was at the December 23 party.

From my recollection of what I read in PMPT the little girl conversation was several days before Christmas.

And it's true, I don't know any of the details of the school nurse visit so I shouldn't have got carried away and said what I did about the school nurse.

[Camper]

OK Camper. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post.

I don't see the point in discussing the people you mention in relation to the secret visit by Santa as the only person I think would have told JonBenet about the visit would have been Santa himself and he was at the December 23 party.

From my recollection of what I read in PMPT the little girl conversation was several days before Christmas.

And it's true, I don't know any of the details of the school nurse visit so I shouldn't have got carried away and said what I did about the school nurse.




---------->>>Thats alright, we all get in a hurry sometimes. I too would like to hear more about the Chrismas caroling, wonder who all went, where they went and what day this happened Sissi, tall order huh. BUT possible IF IF IF JonBenet went and might have had a person dressed as Santa who went with them caroling. I have never seen a person in a Santa suit caroling BUT it was BOULDER, so who knows.

By the way, Santa's are everywhere at Christmas! Jingle, Jingle. Am I rembering correctly that there was an EXTRA
Santa suit in the basement from prior times, er am I coo coo?


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.


.

[tipper]

---------->>>Thats alright, we all get in a hurry sometimes. I too would like to hear more about the Chrismas caroling, wonder who all went, where they went and what day this happened Sissi, tall order huh. BUT possible IF IF IF JonBenet went and might have had a person dressed as Santa who went with them caroling. I have never seen a person in a Santa suit caroling BUT it was BOULDER, so who knows.

By the way, Santa's are everywhere at Christmas! Jingle, Jingle. Am I rembering correctly that there was an EXTRA
Santa suit in the basement from prior times, er am I coo coo?

.That whole carolling thing has never been clear to me but my recollection is it was at the White's party and some carollers came by and a few of the party goers joined them. Who, how long etc I've never known.

[Jayelles]

That whole carolling thing has never been clear to me but my recollection is it was at the White's party and some carollers came by and a few of the party goers joined them. Who, how long etc I've never known.
I think it could be important to know if JonBenet joined them - for forensic purposes.

[Camper]

Good to follow this bit of the activities the evening of the 25th.

My whole center of thinking now is geared toward finding out WHO the WHO was that pre-arranged the thought in JonBenets mind that she was GOING to get a visit with Santa AFTER Christmas, and that it was most likely presented as a SECRET visit and not to tell anyone. IF it was being so looked forward to by JonBenet, WHY did she tell her little friend about it?

WAS JonBenet told to not tell 'the secret' specifically to her mom and dad?

Something rather like 'DON'T tell mommy and daddy' cuz its a secret! Which this caveate may not have specifically mentioned to not mention her little friend.

I am now wondering IF JonBenet told her mom of this upcoming secret visit, or if conditions of maintaining the 'secret' were discussed with JonBenet when the visit info was being planted in her mind.

DO you all remember when Burke was taken and questioned, the PD had asked if he had any secrets, and he responded that everyone has secrets and if you tell, they aren't secrets anymore. Sorry I don't have the complete info on a transcript of that, or source. Hop in anyone and help us out.

Out on a limb with this thought, 'could' the secret visit from Santa been told to JonBenet, by B who was merely bringing message of the 'secret visit' after Christmas.

I am probably certifiably nuts on that thought. Hmmm.

I am sorry I do not remember how PR was informed of a potential secret visit by Santa for JonBenet, via her little friend telling it. Anyone have that tidbit sourced?

I also do not remember IF the little friend told her mommy about the secret visit BEFORE the murder or AFTER?

.

[sissi]

Jonbenet had spent a portion of the Christmas Eve afternoon playing at her friend Megan's house. She was bragging a bit to the child that she was going to have a special visit, a secret visit from Santa after Christmas. Likely the mother intervened at this point, because her child would feel not as "special",telling Jonbenet that Santa was coming to bring toys for everyone and it was "tonight". Jonbenet said, "yes", but it's a secret, he is coming tomorrow night too. Kostanick tried, several times, over days, maybe weeks, to get the attention of the BPD to share this information. I believe the Kostaniks were engineers , not people who would mess up on details. The BPD was not interested, because they already had their "suspect".

[Camper]

Jonbenet had spent a portion of the Christmas Eve afternoon playing at her friend Megan's house. She was bragging a bit to the child that she was going to have a special visit, a secret visit from Santa after Christmas. Likely the mother intervened at this point, because her child would feel not as "special",telling Jonbenet that Santa was coming to bring toys for everyone and it was "tonight". Jonbenet said, "yes", but it's a secret, he is coming tomorrow night too. Kostanick tried, several times, over days, maybe weeks, to get the attention of the BPD to share this information. I believe the Kostaniks were engineers , not people who would mess up on details. The BPD was not interested, because they already had their "suspect".





----------->>>Wonder when PR was told of this, or IF she waS told this information. IF BPD had related this early on, JonBenets encounters prior to Christmas could have been tracked to who possibly might have told her she was going to have a SECRET visit AFTER Christmas.

But perhaps yet another avenue of poor work on the part of the PD. Wonder what the PD did do when they heard this news from Mrs. Kostanik, WHO in the PD heard this information and how they dealt with it?


.

[aussiesheila]

Jonbenet had spent a portion of the Christmas Eve afternoon playing at her friend Megan's house. She was bragging a bit to the child that she was going to have a special visit, a secret visit from Santa after Christmas. Likely the mother intervened at this point, because her child would feel not as "special",telling Jonbenet that Santa was coming to bring toys for everyone and it was "tonight". Jonbenet said, "yes", but it's a secret, he is coming tomorrow night too. Kostanick tried, several times, over days, maybe weeks, to get the attention of the BPD to share this information. I believe the Kostaniks were engineers , not people who would mess up on details. The BPD was not interested, because they already had their "suspect".Yes Sissi, this is what I understood from reading PMPT all those years ago. I immediately thought it would have been Santa who told her about the secret visit from Santa and it would probably have been at their Christmas Party on Dec 23.

I don't know why Camper is on about it being B or 'the walker' or whoever. It would not have the same impact on a child being told by just anyone that Santa would pay a secret visit as it would being told by Santa himself that he would visit. And I'll bet that's who it was. It's a standard kind of setup tactic used by pedophiles - "a special little secret just between you and me, and NO-one else knows".

And sure, just as you say, the BPD ignored the Kostanicks, and lost yet another opportunity to collect vital evidence that would have helped incriminate those responsible for the murder IMO.

[Camper]

Yes Sissi, this is what I understood from reading PMPT all those years ago. I immediately thought it would have been Santa who told her about the secret visit from Santa and it would probably have been at their Christmas Party on Dec 23.

I don't know why Camper is on about it being B or 'the walker' or whoever. It would not have the same impact on a child being told by just anyone that Santa would pay a secret visit as it would being told by Santa himself that he would visit. And I'll bet that's who it was. It's a standard kind of setup tactic used by pedophiles - "a special little secret just between you and me, and NO-one else knows".

And sure, just as you say, the BPD ignored the Kostanicks, and lost yet another opportunity to collect vital evidence that would have helped incriminate those responsible for the murder IMO.





------------->>>I bolded in black your quote 'Aussisheila' that I am quizzing here. I donut git your reference to my being 'ON' about B or 'the walker'. First of all 'who is the walker you have said I was 'ON' ????

Next about being 'ON' Burke, I mentioned Burke because he possibly could have been told by the same 'santa' about the visit AFTER Christmas and that coulda been his secret, he coulda let the santa in 'that' night. DUH er huh?

I would hope that B is reading here, cuz he could hold the magic clue IF IF IF he was told the 'same secret tale'.

Also about B, WHY did the official interrogator of B, even ASK him IF IF he had any secrets or knew any secrets, I donut have the exact verbage here. I seem to recall that the R's were unhappy that B was quizzed at all.

Additionally JonBenet was only 6 years old, just how smart would any of us at the age of 6 be about a 'promised SECRET
visit from ANY santa. Christmas is such a highlight for any small child. WONDER how the R's children were ever told about the WHY of - WHY there was 'a' Santa in every store and street corner?

I don't know about the rest of you but at age six I was more gullible and believed dang near anything anyone told me.

Please do not attribute me as being 'ON' something without reading the context of my verbage carefully.


.

.

[Eagle1]

Yoo-hoo everyone. Actually I thought I was probably the ONLY one who feels a number of people may have been there that night, Aussie. I agree with you whole-heartedly.

And I've always felt the main perp was at the party on the 23rd, who made JonBenet cry and try (I think) to call 911 because none of the adults were protecting her. And that he was the one who promised her another visit.
JMHO. So, I've always assumed it was after the 23rd when JBR told Megan, bragging, as if her little friend had seemed to her to be bragging about something and she had to top her.

No, I don't think the person would have promised the young brother a secret visit, simply because he was a boy and the pedophile liked little girls.

Everyone here has some very good ideas. I think it's rather amazing that we've been working on this case so long and still are coming up with new thoughts, getting in too much of a hurry once in a while and mis-reading each other slightly. Sorry I've been on break a couple of days, giving others a chance to say more, and,

I still have the question, could CG who I believe does resemble JAR, or the boarder, GM, have gone to Waterford, Mi impersonating JAR to try to arrange a boating accident. Does the fact that the two CA visitors belonged to a Kali cult, Goddess of DEATH, figure? Calls for speculation, but I think some people will have some pro's and con's ideas, hopefully. If Kali has anything to do with the case, I think other cults could also, like the Celtic one which held moonlight ceremonies in the hills, maybe others, that there's no telling how many people were actually in the house that night, the planned Michigan trip early the next morning was going to be the pilot's problem. The family would have been planning to sleep on the plane until time to meet JAR and Melinda and her fiance. Maybe someone has me mixed up with someone else. I never meant to imply in any way that only the family was there, as they'd said, which cast a lot of suspicion on them and probably isn't true. They evidently were covering up whatever kind of group certainly may have been there. Either because it was radical and shameful or because there would be reprisals, or for both reasons and possibly other reasons I haven't thought of.

[sissi]

I wish we knew more about the caroling, I don't know anymore than I said. It was Christmas (which in my part of the world does not bring out carolers), I found that odd, we do carol, days before, up to , and including Christmas Eve, but never on Christmas Day. White left the houseguests to join them, Jonbenet did not go, none of the Ramseys went, I do believe someone went with White, but I can't remember if it was one of the houseguests or if it was Fleet Jr.

[Eagle1]

I wish we knew more about the caroling, I don't know anymore than I said. It was Christmas (which in my part of the world does not bring out carolers), I found that odd, we do carol, days before, up to , and including Christmas Eve, but never on Christmas Day. White left the houseguests to join them, Jonbenet did not go, none of the Ramseys went, I do believe someone went with White, but I can't remember if it was one of the houseguests or if it was Fleet Jr.

That sounds so familiar, Sissi, that you must have gotten it from one of the books I have, probably Schiller's PMPT?

Were the carollers back before the R's left the Whites' that evening? I too am thinking it was one of the two male guests who went with FW but I could be wrong. They were both at the Whites' all evening, correct?

So neither of them was the walker who MAY have stayed in the house?

[aussiesheila]

------------->>>I bolded in black your quote 'Aussisheila' that I am quizzing here. I donut git your reference to my being 'ON' about B or 'the walker'. First of all 'who is the walker you have said I was 'ON' ????

Next about being 'ON' Burke, I mentioned Burke because he possibly could have been told by the same 'santa' about the visit AFTER Christmas and that coulda been his secret, he coulda let the santa in 'that' night. DUH er huh?

I would hope that B is reading here, cuz he could hold the magic clue IF IF IF he was told the 'same secret tale'.

Also about B, WHY did the official interrogator of B, even ASK him IF IF he had any secrets or knew any secrets, I donut have the exact verbage here. I seem to recall that the R's were unhappy that B was quizzed at all.

Additionally JonBenet was only 6 years old, just how smart would any of us at the age of 6 be about a 'promised SECRET
visit from ANY santa. Christmas is such a highlight for any small child. WONDER how the R's children were ever told about the WHY of - WHY there was 'a' Santa in every store and street corner?

I don't know about the rest of you but at age six I was more gullible and believed dang near anything anyone told me.

Please do not attribute me as being 'ON' something without reading the context of my verbage carefully.


.

.Sorry again Camper, my error, I meant to say "I don't know why Camper is on about it being B's boarder or 'the walker' or whoever."

In my post 50, I had mentioned that I thought CW or CG could have been 'the walker'.

In your reply, post 52 you then suggested one of these people might have been the one who mentioned the secret visit by Santa. Ths is what I was referring to when I said in my post 60 I didn't know why you were on about it being "B or 'the walker' or whoever" (meaning "B's boarder or 'the walker' or whoever").

Please, please I really did mean B's boarder when I incorrectly wrote B, I certainly did not mean Burke. And I did read your post correctly, I just didn't type mine correctly, sorry.

PS Camper, why do you suggest B's boarder or boyfriend as people who might have discussed the secret visit by Santa with JonBenet?

[aussiesheila]

Yoo-hoo everyone. Actually I thought I was probably the ONLY one who feels a number of people may have been there that night, Aussie. I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Eagle1, We were talking about the possibility that CG, the Ca guest, was the walker, and then you asked - "would he have gone to Waterford to arrange a boating accident?". I assumed from this, that you had in mind there was just one perpetrator. I see I was wrong.

[Eagle1]

Not to worry, but what do you think about one of FW's two guests being the walker and boatman contact in Waterford, now that we've remembered the guests must have been at the Whites' at the time the walker was arriving. Then we discussed that one may have gone carolling with FW and the group of carollers.

Yep, I agree that there may have been quite a few perps, in various some- kind- of- capacities, whatever those might be. :waitasec:

[aussiesheila]

Not to worry, but what do you think about one of FW's two guests being the walker and boatman contact in Waterford, now that we've remembered the guests must have been at the Whites' at the time the walker was arriving. Then we discussed that one may have gone carolling with FW and the group of carollers.

Yep, I agree that there may have been quite a few perps, in various some- kind- of- capacities, whatever those might be. :waitasec:It was me who suggested that CG might have been the walker, so yes that's who I believe it was. I still have to check up again on that boatman stuff - I've forgotten the detail.