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View Full Version : Post Hurricane...what to do now?


Magnum PI
08-31-2005, 11:08 PM
We must, even with the current grief and loss of life, look to how we can prevent this from happening again. I have a few suggestions:

The Wetlands: We must move back from the shore, and allow our vital wetlands to replenish themselves. They are our only protection from the kind of storm surge we've seen. Easier said than done...but it MUST be done.

Barrier protection: We could take all those flooded cars, trucks, trains...hell, anything metal and heavy, and drop them to form a barrier reef. This would help protect the shore, and provide super fishing and diving for sport. And it would keep them from being sold to unsuspecting people. I know this isn't the time to mention fun, but please remember what New Oreleans and surrounding areas stand for anyway...and they will need the revenue.

New Orleans levee system: I don't know how many places are weakened by the storm and neither does anyone else. Does anyone like Venice? It's kinda like N.O...romantic and such. As a child, I remember a neighbor that had a wet area in back of his house. He did everything to cover it, drain it, you name it. It was only when he decided to make it a small pond did he find happiness. It was a beautiful pond. N.O. could be a beautiful pond, and we wouldn't have to fight mother nature as hard as we are having to now.

Casinos: Since these are boats anyway, we could keep them inside the barrier area, and shuttle people out there...mpi

Marthatex
08-31-2005, 11:32 PM
Those are all fabulous ideas for the long term. We're jumping ahead a little fast; there are still people needing rescue and who will need shelter and food for months to come.

This is what O'Reilly said tonight and I about jumped out of my chair I was so surprised:

He said we should all right now try to conserve oil as much as we can - turn up the thermostat, watch the driving. (yeah) Carpool, walk, you know.

He said the oil companies should STOP GOUGING! The profits are ridiculous and they are hurting Americans.

He said Bush should ask OPEC to (release oil or drop price), immediately. He said OPEC makes ridiculous profits and should STOP GOUGING.

He said we should all try to give to Red Cross and other appropriate organizations.

Can't remember what else.....hormones.

Magnum PI
08-31-2005, 11:42 PM
Yes, I did mean for the long term...but the long term begins right after they clear the muck and start selling the land again...and then we are in the same cycle of stupidity, just waiting for it to happen again, and maybe worse the next time. Now my thoughts and hopes are for the people there, I meant this thread to spur whatever remedies we could discover..these people will be back to try again, and I think our nation owes them at least a decent chance...we claim that the Iraqi people deserve a chance too, don't we?...mpi

Nova
08-31-2005, 11:49 PM
Great idea about the barrier reef, MPI. It has worked elsewhere.

I'm wondering about building codes. I realize this was an historically severe storm and no building material will hold back flooding water.

But I grew up in Florida and lived through some serious hurricanes. They caused damage -- yet they didn't blow away entire counties. And they didn't usually knock down concrete-block houses.

Marthatex
08-31-2005, 11:50 PM
I think after surviving this horror, the people would not want to go back to the same place; not without changes, like proper levees.

Your ideas are good.

Magnum PI
09-01-2005, 12:58 AM
Great idea about the barrier reef, MPI. It has worked elsewhere.

I'm wondering about building codes. I realize this was an historically severe storm and no building material will hold back flooding water.

But I grew up in Florida and lived through some serious hurricanes. They caused damage -- yet they didn't blow away entire counties. And they didn't usually knock down concrete-block houses.
Nova: The only thing that will slow a storm surge is wetlands. Nature made it that way. We do have technology to build buildings that will take 150+ mph winds, but that is not the point. The rising water is the culprit in most cases...we have to learn to live with mother nature on this one, we cannot whip her with our stronger fortifications. The wetlands slow the surge, and absorb the water. The wetlands are our cradle for our ocean life as well...mpi

GonzoReiter
09-01-2005, 02:30 AM
I'm no scientific rocket, but IMO you're on the mark there.

Marthatex
09-01-2005, 08:32 AM
We must, even with the current grief and loss of life, look to how we can prevent this from happening again. I have a few suggestions:

The Wetlands: We must move back from the shore, and allow our vital wetlands to replenish themselves. They are our only protection from the kind of storm surge we've seen. Easier said than done...but it MUST be done.

Barrier protection: We could take all those flooded cars, trucks, trains...hell, anything metal and heavy, and drop them to form a barrier reef. This would help protect the shore, and provide super fishing and diving for sport. And it would keep them from being sold to unsuspecting people. I know this isn't the time to mention fun, but please remember what New Oreleans and surrounding areas stand for anyway...and they will need the revenue.

New Orleans levee system: I don't know how many places are weakened by the storm and neither does anyone else. Does anyone like Venice? It's kinda like N.O...romantic and such. As a child, I remember a neighbor that had a wet area in back of his house. He did everything to cover it, drain it, you name it. It was only when he decided to make it a small pond did he find happiness. It was a beautiful pond. N.O. could be a beautiful pond, and we wouldn't have to fight mother nature as hard as we are having to now.

Casinos: Since these are boats anyway, we could keep them inside the barrier area, and shuttle people out there...mpi

Why don't you send your ideas to the Governor of La. and any other appropriate persons in a few weeks? I'm not an environmental engineer, but it all sounds good to me, especially the wetlands part. Evidently New Orleans used to have more wetlands, but it has sunk and the Mississippi River policies have messed things up?

GonzoReiter
09-01-2005, 02:55 PM
HELP KATRINA'S VICTIMS (http://www.networkforgood.org/topics/animal_environ/hurricanes/?source=YAHOO&cmpgn=HMPG)


Stirling Newberry: "If we had a real president this is the speech he would give (http://www.bopnews.com/archives/004722.html#4722)"

Cypros
09-01-2005, 03:11 PM
I especially like the barrier reef idea. As you said, they need to find someplace to dump all of that debris. Might as well put it to practical use.

As for your idea about NO becoming a great pond.... elsewhere I proposed that they let the water stay put and use the area as a research center -- there are all kinds of things we can learn from this site and ways for it to be put to practical use WITH the water. It just couldn't be an urban center again. The site could also co-function as a historical monument

GonzoReiter
09-01-2005, 09:01 PM
It's a good idea to tell nearly a half a million people who are now refugees that the federal government won't help them rebuild their beloved city?...but it's a good idea to spend billions to tear down and rebuild Baghdad, Iraq?

dunno...seems wrong, but that's just me...

House Speaker Dennis Hastert (http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#075833)

Speaking to a Chicago newspaper, said that any attempt at rebuilding the Big Easy, "didn't make sense to me." Here's a snip:

Hastert said that he supports an emergency bailout, but raised questions about a long-term rebuilding effort. As the most powerful voice in the Republican-controlled House, Hastert is in a position to block any legislation that he opposes.

"We help replace, we help relieve disaster," Hastert said. "But I think federal insurance and everything that goes along with it... we ought to take a second look at that."

concernedperson
09-01-2005, 09:13 PM
Everyone knows I love New Orleans but this is something to be considered. After it is all said and done who will be there? The big oil companies. the big insurance companies, I think not. They will move to Houston as they have for a decade.You will see grocery stores and anxillary support systems. But the crux of an infrastructure will be gone. No jobs, no real reason to be there. Take the insurance money and run. It is a destruction of an American city with no future. Fixing the levees won't work now if any astute business person is involved.

Nova
09-02-2005, 12:11 AM
Got it, MPI, and I'm all in favor of more wetlands.

ETA: I'm all for being sensible and environmentally conscious, but I have a hard time agreeing that one of the great cities of US history should be left a sink hole.

Built in a different way, maybe with fewer residents below sea level.

But abandoned? (Except for Cypros' research facility, of course.)

Magnum PI
09-02-2005, 01:15 AM
Got it, MPI, and I'm all in favor of more wetlands.

ETA: I'm all for being sensible and environmentally conscious, but I have a hard time agreeing that one of the great cities of US history should be left a sink hole.

Built in a different way, maybe with fewer residents below sea level.

But abandoned? (Except for Cypros' research facility, of course.)
Of course..but what about a good-lookin' fun sink hole! With Venice like atmosphere.Could you adjust? If we fix it at whatever expence, and it happens again, another fix will be a hard sale, and there are some harder realities we much consider, like the Ol' Mississippi River jumping it's banks. Corp on Eng worry about that happening on a "good" day.

Magnum PI
09-02-2005, 01:20 AM
I especially like the barrier reef idea. As you said, they need to find someplace to dump all of that debris. Might as well put it to practical use.

As for your idea about NO becoming a great pond.... elsewhere I proposed that they let the water stay put and use the area as a research center -- there are all kinds of things we can learn from this site and ways for it to be put to practical use WITH the water. It just couldn't be an urban center again. The site could also co-function as a historical monument

If we build more levees, we should hire the Dutch, their's have been good for 50 years.

dakini
09-02-2005, 01:27 AM
HELP KATRINA'S VICTIMS (http://www.networkforgood.org/topics/animal_environ/hurricanes/?source=YAHOO&cmpgn=HMPG)


Stirling Newberry: "If we had a real president this is the speech he would give (http://www.bopnews.com/archives/004722.html#4722)"


Thank you for the link, Gonzo

At least someone has the imagination and eloquence to say what needs to be said. May all those who have it in them to think and speak this way be the ones to lead the world's people's in times of crisis and great opportunity!

Magnum PI
09-02-2005, 01:34 AM
Two more thoughts:

drinking water

Dean Kayman (inventor of Segway, portable insulin pump, the iBot) has recently invented a little machine that uses anything from cow dung to grass clippings for fuel. Putrid water goes in one end, and pure clean drinking water comes out the other. President Carter went to India with Dean to present it to the Indian government. We need a few thousand in N.O. now.

food

during the Afgan war, the U.S. would drop these little food packets from C-130's at considerable altitude. They were sucessful because they would spread out and not just drop on one spot, which helps the distribution making looting and hoarding more diffucult. They quit using them because the orange color was close to the color of the millions of land mines, and that became a problem. I say, dust them off and start dropping, now.

Nova
09-02-2005, 01:39 AM
Of course..but what about a good-lookin' fun sink hole! With Venice like atmosphere.Could you adjust? If we fix it at whatever expence, and it happens again, another fix will be a hard sale, and there are some harder realities we much consider, like the Ol' Mississippi River jumping it's banks. Corp on Eng worry about that happening on a "good" day.

MPI, I see the logic in what you are saying, but there are so few places in this country where we preserve history, I hate to give up on NO.

(I should mention I've never been there myself, but I know people who would never open a history book who have been to the French Quarter.)

Magnum PI
09-02-2005, 02:07 AM
[QUOTE=Nova]MPI, I see the logic in what you are saying, but there are so few places in this country where we preserve history, I hate to give up on NO.

(I should mention I've never been there myself, but I know people who would never open a history book who have been to the French Quarter.)[/QUOTE

I love the place and have been there many times. My daughter was conceived in the French Quarter(fun night)

I have a friend who has lived there for three generations, and just moved his facilities from Metarie to downtown NO. It was a big deal for him, and the city fathers even helped...he'll be ok, there are many stories like his.

Nova, I don't want to give up on N.O. rebirth, but I'm afraid it will not be the place we remembered once this is over...mpi

GonzoReiter
09-02-2005, 04:47 AM
Even as people from New Orleans desperately search for their family members and rescue workers patrol the region in boats, hack through roofs and try to pluck survivors out, some people in other parts of the country have begun to blame us, the victims. Our crime? Choosing to live in New Orleans.

Especially heartless were U.S. House Speaker Dennis Hastert and the writers of an editorial that appeared Wednesday in the Republican-American, a newspaper in Waterbury, Conn. Mr. Hastert was quoted by the Daily Herald of Arlington Heights, Ill., saying it makes no sense to rebuild New Orleans where it is. "It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed," he said.

The Republican-American's headline asks, "Is New Orleans worth reclaiming?" The editorial depicts our city and our people as a drain on federal coffers, and if you read it you might get the impression that New Orleans has never contributed to the economic vitality of this country. It maligns the city and our people as if we're nothing more than outstretched palms waiting for FEMA grants that only they fund.

How dare they?

After Mr. Hastert made his insensitive comments, his press secretary tried to spin them. The speaker didn't mean that there shouldn't be a New Orleans, the spokesperson said. He was just suggesting that as they rebuild, officials give serious thought to how future destruction could be prevented. That goes without saying. We're much more sophisticated now than we were when the city was founded in the 18th century. Of course our officials are going to rebuild in such a way that reduces the threat of future devastation.

At least President Bush realizes how valuable we are. He flew over the storm-ravaged areas of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama on Wednesday afternoon and seems sincerely sorrowful for all the people whose lives have been irreversibly changed by this storm. His promise to send aid, and lots of it, was encouraging. It's going to take a huge amount of money to rebuild New Orleans and a similarly large amount of assistance to sustain the hundreds of thousands of people who have been displaced.

Joe Riley knows it, too. As the mayor of Charleston, S.C., a coastal city that was torn apart by Hurricane Hugo in 1989, Mr. Riley not only is sympathetic to our plight, he defends our right, our need, to exist. When an interviewer for National Public Radio asked him, "Should there be a city where New Orleans is?" he said, "Of course, of course. Venice should always be Venice. And New Orleans always New Orleans. They'll make the levees bigger, and they'll make them stronger so this never happens again. But this city, so important to our country, of course it should always be there."

Surely the folks in Waterbury would want their city rebuilt if a natural disaster destroyed it, just as Rep. Hastert would demand that Chicago be given the same consideration. They ought to show compassion and respect for those of us down here who will be struggling for quite some time to piece together our lives.

President Bush is promising aid. The sooner we get it, the better. One thing is certain: We will rebuild. New Orleans is worth it. So are the people who call it home.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 06:47 AM
What would President Andrew Jackson say........?

Magnum PI
09-02-2005, 03:55 PM
What would President Andrew Jackson say........? I think it is up to Bush to walk his walk now. He didn't mind tackling Iraq, Social Security, and so forth, now it is time to "endure the unendurable" and focus on the job at hand right here at home in the Gulf Coast area, and especially New Orleans...mpi

Magnum PI
09-02-2005, 11:27 PM
Is there any reason that we could not bring one of our many ballistic missle subs to help power the electrical grid? I understand one nuclear sub could power an entire city. They are portable, and paid for by the people. God knows we have enough of them to blow up the earth 100 times over. WhAT'S WRONG WITH USING ONE FOR A GOOD USA CAUSE???...MPI

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 11:40 PM
I think it is up to Bush to walk his walk now. He didn't mind tackling Iraq, Social Security, and so forth, now it is time to "endure the unendurable" and focus on the job at hand right here at home in the Gulf Coast area, and especially New Orleans...mpi

I keep hearing you with your wishful thinking. He "appeared to be walking a walk" today, but so far I am not impressed. "New Orleans will rise up again", and nearby older folks are dying. People couldn't get out to go to the Astrodome. The hospitals were critical. But he kept having these photo-ops and hugging the same people over and over again.

No, I've got his number. An awful lot would have to happen before I'd ever be convinced of his walking any walk.

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 01:00 AM
If GWB is determined to save the bodies and souls of people in Iraq that don't even want to be saved by us, how does he have a hard time wanting to save our own people?Many of us have said many things on this topic...Condi is buying shoes that would make Elmeda Marcos jealous, he's reluctently cutting his vacation short for a few photo ops...We need innovative answers NOW...exactly who is running this show?

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 10:35 AM
I keep hearing you with your wishful thinking. He "appeared to be walking a walk" today, but so far I am not impressed. "New Orleans will rise up again", and nearby older folks are dying. People couldn't get out to go to the Astrodome. The hospitals were critical. But he kept having these photo-ops and hugging the same people over and over again.

No, I've got his number. An awful lot would have to happen before I'd ever be convinced of his walking any walk.I just saw on the news huge areas burning in NO. Why didn't I see firefighting planes making runs, one after another? If houses and buildings or even forests were burning somewhere else, would we see the planes? I know, "this was unexpected" (quote GWB) like the levee breaking...mpi

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 10:39 AM
This is September. The height of hurricane season. Theres so much discussion on whose at fault. As a family living in an area which experienced Frances and Jeanne last year, I hope each individual along with their communities are preparing themselves. The hurricane threat doesn't end with Katrina.

Pepper
09-03-2005, 11:35 AM
I remember studying this in school many decades ago. Here's what I remember.

If left alone, the Mississippi River would change it's course continually as silt is deposited along the mouth of the river, changing the mouth back and fourth over many miles of real estate.

A very long time ago it was decided to dredge out the mouth to allow for deep water ports upstream. The Army Corp of Engineers was instrumental in dredging out the river so that cargo ships could travel inland via the Mississippi. By interfering with Mother Nature, we upset the natural flow which contributed to the problem of the city being below sea level and needing the levies on both the river and the lake on the north side.

The ACE and local government has known about the vulnerability of New Orleans for DECADES. Congress has failed to appropriate adequate funding to shore up the levy system. Local government in the N.O. area has failed to impress upon Congress the severity of the situation.

The ACE and local officials had to know exactly where the water would flow in case of breaches in the levies, and exactly how high that water would be.

Those people living in those low-lying areas should have been made aware that flooding would be up to their roof tops, and they were in extreme danger of drowning. I just don't believe those people were made aware of the extreme danger they were in. Busses should have been provided for the evacuation of these people who had no cars or means to leave the city. It wasn't done, and as a result many people died.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

less0305
09-03-2005, 11:54 AM
And haven't we heard that N.O. has been actually sinking for years??

nanandjim
09-03-2005, 12:45 PM
I just saw on the news huge areas burning in NO...
Who do you think are setting these fires? Do you think that it is the same people who are shooting at helicopters, policemen and emergency vehicles who are there trying to help?

ETA: I learned at the age of 5 that the media manipulates what it shows to the public. I was in the first grade, and our school had an Easter bonnet contest. The photographer chose another little boy and me to be subjects of a newspaper article. He begged me to put my hand on the boy's hat as if I were helping him adjust it. I didn't want to touch a boy, and I resisted. :) He finally persuaded me to do it, but I wasn't happy about it. You can see in the picture that I am saying something mean to the boy, and he looks wide-eyed and scared! :) The caption read, "XX helps YY adjust his Easter hat."
Very small example--but I have seen first-hand on several occasions how the "facts" are manipulated.

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 04:48 PM
I think some fires occur naturally, for example, when many chemicals get wet, they naturally combust. These thugs take advantage of this, and, yes I think some fires will be set on purpose.

Mabel
09-03-2005, 04:55 PM
I think some fires occur naturally, for example, when many chemicals get wet, they naturally combust. These thugs take advantage of this, and, yes I think some fires will be set on purpose.

I know at one point there were open natural gas lines all over the city. It would only take a spark to set off a fire.

concernedperson
09-03-2005, 04:57 PM
I know at one point there were open natural gas lines all over the city. It would only take a spark to set off a fire.

I think that is the most likely scenario. The looters are having too much fun robbing and raping and shooting people,why bother with fire too.

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 05:00 PM
Does anyone know the answer to this question: Why don't we beach one of our many nuclear subs near N.O. and use it's power plant to provide emergency electricity? These subs can power an entire town, they need no petrol, only a small crew, and are available NOW! I know there would be engineering challenges, but so what? We have one hell of a problem on our hands. Providing gasoline powered generators seem to have their own problems, like where do we get the gas? The sub, IMO, could be integrated to the grid and sit there for years producing mega-watts of power-no pollution or transportation problems like you have with portable generators. Maybe someone in the Navy could answer this. We just launched the Jimmy Carter, a monster sub itself. This would be a good break-in run...mpi

SieSie
09-03-2005, 05:00 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, yet, but I have my own ideas for long-term housing (I know we're not at that point just yet, this is just my "what-if" thoughts for the future of all the people left homeless):

I would start building large communities of Habitat for Humanity and Manufactured homes in safer, unaffected areas.

Instead of large corporations donating money to any of the charities where it has to go through a bunch of red-tape before ever being seen, have bedding companies, such as Serta, donate thousands of beds to fill these new homes. Have Kenmore, GE, Whirlpool and Frigidaire donate refrigerators, washers, dryers, and ovens for all of the homes. Have Sony and Panasonic donate 2 tv’s and 1 dvd player per household. Walmart can donate towels and sheets, while Kmart can donate alarm clocks and clothing. CVS can donate toiletries, while Kroger, Farmer Jack and other food stores can donate canned goods and dry goods. Pampers, Huggies and Luvs can donate diapers and formula. You get the point. All the way down to the carpet and window companies to build the houses to the little details that even Pier 1 Imports and Pottery Barn, etc. can provide to make the homes feel warm and reassuring (lamps, frames, home décor, etc…).

Housing would be equal and the people would have an opportunity to begin again with the essentials for living. Those who were poor and those who were better off will all start on a level playing field. What they choose to do and where they go from there is up to them. There will be those who appreciate it and take care of their new homes, set out to find jobs in other areas and continue to thrive and improve their homes and surroundings. Of course, unfortunately, you will have those who take advantage and allow their homes to get run-down, don’t look for jobs, and go back to the criminal element and poverty level they had started out at. Unfortunately, you can’t control or change this.

It seems so simple in writing. If only it were.

This has been one of my “what-if-ramblings”. Be glad I don’t subject you all to very many of them! LOL!

Mabel
09-03-2005, 05:04 PM
Does anyone know the answer to this question: Why don't we beach one of our many nuclear subs near N.O. and use it's power plant to provide emergency electricity? These subs can power an entire town, they need no petrol, only a small crew, and are available NOW! I know there would be engineering challenges, but so what? We have one hell of a problem on our hands. Providing gasoline powered generators seem to have their own problems, like where do we get the gas? The sub, IMO, could be integrated to the grid and sit there for years producing mega-watts of power-no pollution or transportation problems like you have with portable generators. Maybe someone in the Navy could answer this. We just launched the Jimmy Carter, a monster sub itself. This would be a good break-in run...mpi

I think it's going to be quite some time before the grid is repaired to a point where power can run through it. They can't just "plug it in" so to speak, and electrify the flood waters. I think it'll be many months before all of NO has power again.

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 05:15 PM
I think it's going to be quite some time before the grid is repaired to a point where power can run through it. They can't just "plug it in" so to speak, and electrify the flood waters. I think it'll be many months before all of NO has power again.
Yes, I realize that the grid is down, but it has to be put back in place peacemeal anyway. Transmitting power to a sub station (power station) could be done IMO, and we have plenty of crews to do the wiring. Think of the oil it will save also...mpi

concernedperson
09-03-2005, 05:34 PM
Sie Sie, I actually like your idea about getting donations and building communities. I would like to add national builders i.e. Centex Homes and the TV shows like Extreme Makeover to the list. Not only would the homes be sturdy and permanent but something to be proud of for the residents. A total rebuilding of life and life affirming.

Since New Orleans won't be habitable for awhile and considering the long term problems of a city being below sea level, I would suggest other cities that have pretty good infrastructures and quite a lot of land available. Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Lake Charles, Alexandria, Monroe and Shreveport. These cities are quite away from the areas most likely to flood (except Lake Charles). Then the people would be in their home state.

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 06:49 PM
Sie Sie, I actually like your idea about getting donations and building communities. I would like to add national builders i.e. Centex Homes and the TV shows like Extreme Makeover to the list. Not only would the homes be sturdy and permanent but something to be proud of for the residents. A total rebuilding of life and life affirming.

Since New Orleans won't be habitable for awhile and considering the long term problems of a city being below sea level, I would suggest other cities that have pretty good infrastructures and quite a lot of land available. Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Lake Charles, Alexandria, Monroe and Shreveport. These cities are quite away from the areas most likely to flood (except Lake Charles). Then the people would be in their home state.Sounds good to me, both you and SieSie's ideas. This is the kind of thinking that made the U.S. a great nation, not just sitting there waiting for our great leaders to lead us. These people listen to polls and $$$....that's it. Their paycheck doesn't change one way or the other..mpi