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Nehemiah
12-08-2003, 08:37 PM
Something that seems really odd to me is the way that JB's arms were "tied" above her head. Think about how difficult that would be to accomplish with a child flailing about and her arms going every which way. If she were rendered unconscious first, then WHY even place her arms in that position?

I would think the most common and easiest position would have been to have tied them behind her back. Unless, of course, she had been slightly suspended in some way from her arms. I realize that due to livor mortis and such, that she was not actually hanging with her full body weight, but could she have been partially suspended against something, such as the headboard of her bed, or something else? In reading the autopsy report, it stated that the cord was slightly higher in the back of her neck.

From the autopsy report:

"The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the
laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The
midline of the furrow mark on the
anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head."

This is one of those things that I don't have settled in my mind. Any comments?

Edited to make a correction.

ajt400
12-08-2003, 09:36 PM
That's a really good question....
Since alot of this crime involoves staging, do you think her body was staged a cetain way, and JR just messed it up when he carried her upstairs.

I know he has already said how he found the body, but he certainly wouldn't have the attention to detail.....

Nehemiah
12-08-2003, 10:01 PM
I guess that would depend upon the actual time that he found the body. By 1:00 p.m., she was in full rigor. However, if he discovered the body earlier, then....could he have repositioned the body in some way? I know that has been well debated here in the past.

John Walsh made the comment that "JR cut her down." We never knew if that were a mistake on his part, or inside information that he had been privy to and blurted out. That, combined with the arms over the head, and the slight upward position of the ligature on her neck, makes me wonder.

Another thing, is that she supposedly was killed while lying on her stomach, as evidenced by the urine stain patterns. But think about this....she is on her stomach with a garrotte around her neck and someone tightening it. Wouldn't the neck ligature have been more in a downward position at the back of her neck, as opposed to being slightly upward, if this were the scenario?

Maxi
12-08-2003, 10:34 PM
Perhaps the killer posed her with her arms tied over her head after she was dead. It's a typical bondage pose, but not very practical for really restraining someone. I think there would have been ligature marks on JBR's wrists, even through the shirt cuffs, if she had struggled much.

vicktor
12-09-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Maxi
Perhaps the killer posed her with her arms tied over her head after she was dead. It's a typical bondage pose, but not very practical for really restraining someone. I think there would have been ligature marks on JBR's wrists, even through the shirt cuffs, if she had struggled much.

I would agree with all your observations. The killer could also have dragged JB into the windowless room by her arms, then quickly posed the body.

Toth
12-09-2003, 05:16 AM
There is no evidence of JonBenet having been suspended; there is considerable evidence to indicate that no suspension took place.

John Ramsey found his daughter at about 1:00pm and not at any earlier occasion.

The fact that anyone else finding her would most probably have realized she was dead does not change the fact that his brain rebelled against such evidence as he somewhat foolishly clung to a desperate hope.

Imon128
12-09-2003, 05:25 AM
JB's arms in that position could be an indication of an accident. Tying her arms together, gently, could have just been a control tactic by somebody who cared about her, and something went bad...culminating in her death. The perp, being very distraught, might not have paid much attention to that detail at the time. It's funny that's what John did first...untie those hands. IMO, he should have tried CPR.

I don't think she was suspended, or at least not for long, if at all.

Arielle
12-09-2003, 07:49 AM
Livor mortis in the body suggested that she had been lying on her back with her arms above her head and that her body had not been moved. For those who don't know, livor mortis the the pooling of blood in the lowest portions of the body and is a good indication of body position. Had she been suspended, even slightly, gravity would have had her blood pooling in the lowest portions of her body. So there would not have been the pattern of livor mortis that was seen. There would have been more blood in the lower portion of her torso and legs. I believe that her arms and upper back showed livor mortis. Therefore, she had to have been flat on her back when livor mortis set it. This occurs about 1 to 2 hours after death, so does not rule out any kind of initial staging. It does however rule out John having lied about how he found her body at 1:00.

FULTON
12-09-2003, 08:42 AM
I have posted my theory on this before concerning JBR's arms above her head.I felt it was part of the staging by someone who cared as to give the appearance that she was merely "asleep"along side her favorite nightgown.My own two daughters used to sleep in this position quite frequently.

Nehemiah
12-09-2003, 08:45 AM
Arielle, could she have been in more of a sitting position, or lying against something with her lower body, with her arms tied above her head and onto something? That way, there would be no weight actually suspended.

Please explain more of what you mean about the liver mortis and possibly John having lied about how he found the body at 1:00.

Imon128
12-09-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by FULTON
I have posted my theory on this before concerning JBR's arms above her head.I felt it was part of the staging by someone who cared as to give the appearance that she was merely "asleep"along side her favorite nightgown.My own two daughters used to sleep in this position quite frequently.

I think that's a GOOD possibility, too, FULTON. If the parents left JB on her bed too long, in that position, she probably got rigor and they couldn't 'undo' it.

Maxi
12-09-2003, 09:06 AM
Rather than having been suspended, do you think it's possible that her wrists were bound above her head and the ligature tied to an object while she was lying down? That would also be typical of a bondage pose.

Imon128
12-09-2003, 09:17 AM
That's a possibility, maxi. That wouldn't change the livor much, IMO. If JB had struggled in that position, though, would we see more signs of damage on her neck?

Maxi
12-09-2003, 09:56 AM
I was thinking that she might have been tied to something by the wrist ligatures, not by the neck ligature. So signs of struggle would show on her wrists.

It's probably a crazy idea. It's just that the position of her arms look more like posing to me than practical contraint -- unless the wrist ligatures were originally tied to something like a bedpost.

Of course, someone who was just posing her body to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong might not consider that arms over head is dramatic looking but not practical.

Toth
12-09-2003, 10:44 AM
along side her favorite nightgown. Favorite??

why_nutt
12-09-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Toth
Favorite??

Pam Paugh quote, November 2, 1999:

It is my information that this gown was found in a closet....and yes, she was fond of it because it had a Barbie picture on the front which looked like her. My mother purchased it here in GA at a local Kmart. I was with her.

Imon128
12-09-2003, 10:54 AM
Not gonna dig for source, but I swear John Ramsey stated that the gown was JB's favorite. Patsy, in the NE Police Files book, didn't seem to know much about JB's night clothes.

ajt400
12-09-2003, 11:13 AM
Is that odd that J Ramsey appears to know more about his daughter's clothes than her mother??

Imon128
12-09-2003, 11:15 AM
I think it is, yes.

Ivy
12-09-2003, 11:29 AM
Excerpt from a Barbara Walters interview:

BARBARA WALTERS When Jon Benet’s body was found there was one of her favorite nightgowns next to her. Her so-called Barbie nightgown.

PATSY RAMSEY Um hum.

BARBARA WALTERS And so there was the impression that whoever did this cared about this child. Left the nightgown. Left the blanket.

PATSY RAMSEY Um hum.

Source (http://cp.yahoo.net/search/cache?p=john+%2bjonbenet+%2bfavorite+%2bnightgown&ei=UTF-8&n=20&fl=0&url=rjABJiilvQkJ:abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_000317_ramseyspart2_feature.html)

I don't have the hardback edition of DOI and don't have time to hunt for the page in my paperback copy, but on page 274 of the hardback edition, Patsy wonders if the blanket and the nightgown were removed from the dryer (by the Intruder, of course!)

Ivy
12-09-2003, 11:53 AM
If I recall correctly, LHP also said she thought the blanket and nightgown might have come from the dryer.

If the blanket was taken from the dryer and the nightgown was in there too, the nightgown probably stuck to the blanket by way of static cling--and dropped off the blanket when the blanket was given a little shake to straighten it out right before putting it on JonBenet's body.

candy
12-09-2003, 12:15 PM
I've believed that the arms extended over the head came from Patsy taking off the wet red turtleneck and putting her in the white turtleneck she was found in.

Seeker
12-09-2003, 02:00 PM
I've believed that the arms extended over the head came from Patsy taking off the wet red turtleneck and putting her in the white turtleneck she was found in.


She wasn't found in a white turtleneck. She was found in the same shirt she wore to the White's that night.
From the autopsy report, "decendent is clothed in a long sleeved white knit collarless shirt,"
The fact that she was found in the same exact shirt she wore to the White's for dinner supports the statement Patsy made about what she fell asleep in.

FULTON
12-09-2003, 04:25 PM
TOTH.......... Did they above posters answer your question about FAVORITE?????:)

lannie
12-09-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Seeker
She wasn't found in a white turtleneck. She was found in the same shirt she wore to the White's that night.
From the autopsy report, "decendent is clothed in a long sleeved white knit collarless shirt,"
The fact that she was found in the same exact shirt she wore to the White's for dinner supports the statement Patsy made about what she fell asleep in.
Reply from Lannie ,
Now that does make sense I can see Patsy dressing JB in the red turtleneck for the trip to Mi. She may of dressed her the night before as mothers do sometimes with children who are hard to awake & grumpy about getting up , most clothing of children do not show wrinkling even if they sleep in them .

lannie
12-09-2003, 05:10 PM
And then she may of wet in bed & the red shirt had to be removed & the white shirt put back on & that is why her arms are over her head, because if dressed after dead she would of had her arms raised & Mortis set in befor they could be reset.

Toth
12-09-2003, 06:32 PM
If I recall correctly, LHP also said she thought the blanket and nightgown might have come from the dryer. Which dryer?
Is this the same dryer that is in the laundry area where a paring knife was found? An item not normally kept there and an item that can't be linked to any other knives in the Ramsey home?

Do you think that Patsy Ramey went out at two in the morning and bought both the foreign male dna and the paring knife at the same store?

Imon128
12-09-2003, 06:41 PM
It has been stated that the basement dryer and washer were blanket/large items laundry. Please...don't throw me in dee briar patch and make me find it......sigh.

Ivy
12-09-2003, 06:58 PM
The paring knife belonged to the Ramseys, Toth. It came from their kitchen. In JB case discussions, the knife is sometimes referred to as a potato knife or a kitchen knife. It was found on the laundry counter that was outside JonBenet's bedroom. When Burke opened the laundry cabinet for whatever reason, he probably found his Swiss Army knife, the one LHP had hidden from him there, and since he didn't need the stupid paring/potato/kitchen knife anymore, he left it on the laundry counter.

LHP said she thought the white blanket found on JonBenet might have come from the dryer that was inside the laundry cabinet outside JonBenet's room. It is the cabinet upon whose counter the paring/potato/kitchen knife was found.

Foreign DNA, Toth? What foreign DNA? Has it been established that the fingernail and panties DNA is not "noise" or the result of the DNA amplification process? If so, PLEASE PROVIDE A LEGITIMATE SOURCE DOCUMENTING THAT JUICY TIDBIT OF NEW INFORMATION.

eliza
12-09-2003, 07:05 PM
I believe the arms were over her head and left that way when she died. I feel that by the time her parents found her she was already in rigor mortis, so the position of her arms had to be worked into the plan for the staging of the crime.

Ivy
12-09-2003, 07:16 PM
eliza, I absolutely agree.

I think Burke was in a panic after he killed JonBenet (maybe in the train room) and pulled/dragged her body by the arms to hide it in the wine cellar. That's why her arms were over her head.

eliza
12-09-2003, 08:44 PM
Exactly Ivy! Burke, unable to lift JBR would have to drag her to hide her body. The dragging of the body might explain more than than just the position of the arms over the head. I think it also could account for some of the scrapes and bruises found on her body. Her hair may have picked up bits of garland on the floor as she was being dragged, thus accounting for pieces of garland in her hair.

Toth
12-09-2003, 08:54 PM
The paring knife belonged to the Ramseys, Toth. It came from their kitchen. Please explain how you know it came from their kitchen when neither of the Ramseys are able to identify it and even the housekeeper can not identify it and there are no similar, matched-set knives in the kitchen?

Ivy
12-09-2003, 09:24 PM
Toth, LHP identified the paring knife as one used in the Ramsey household to peel potatoes... but of course, when John and Patsy were shown a photo of the knife, they denied owning it. That's not to say they weren't able to identify it. It means they refused to.

Ivy
12-09-2003, 09:44 PM
Right, eliza. Dragging could account for some of the injuries found on JonBenet's body. The autopsy report states that there were abrasions on the lower left side of JonBenet's back and on the posterior of her lower left leg. These abrasions might be indicative of her body having been dragged.

I think you're right that the garland pieces found in her hair may have gotten there from her body being dragged. I'd never thought of that.

Toth
12-09-2003, 09:56 PM
Toth, LHP identified the paring knife as one used in the Ramsey household to peel potatoes... And John Ramsey laughed and said in his house, potatoes come from a box.

Ivy
12-09-2003, 10:23 PM
Toth...John had a reason to lie. LHP didn't. What motive, what reason, would LHP possibly have had for lying about recognizing the knife as one used to peel potatoes in the Ramsey household?

Toth
12-10-2003, 01:24 AM
Does Patsy Ramsey strike you as the type who peels potatoes?
Don't you think if the cops had other knives in the home that matched this one we have heard about that.
LHP thinks dollars before she answers any question.

Blazeboy3
12-10-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Nehemiah
Something that seems really odd to me is the way that JB's arms were "tied" above her head. Think about how difficult that would be to accomplish with a child flailing about and her arms going every which way. If she were rendered unconscious first, then WHY even place her arms in that position?

I would think the most common and easiest position would have been to have tied them behind her back. Unless, of course, she had been slightly suspended in some way from her arms. I realize that due to livor mortis and such, that she was not actually hanging with her full body weight, but could she have been partially suspended against something, such as the headboard of her bed, or something else? In reading the autopsy report, it stated that the cord was slightly higher in the back of her neck.

From the autopsy report:

"The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the
laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The
midline of the furrow mark on the
anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head."

This is one of those things that I don't have settled in my mind. Any comments?

Edited to make a correction.

It's not settled in my mind either...it brings back the fact that John Walsh stated on national tv that "she let him go down and cut her down...was allowed to go down and cut her down..."... ??? in his LKL interview 2003 regarding JonBenet and her dad...???what's that about/mean?:dontknow: :confused:

Blazeboy3
12-10-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Imon128
I think it is, yes.

K-Mart; let's not forget/remember that the "break-in/...???" Patsy's K-Mart jewelry was stolen on same day as this ...???

Feb. 21, 2001 - The parents of murder victim JonBenét Ramsey say they have been victimized again - this time by an intruder who broke into their Atlanta home Tuesday.

John Ramsey told police he returned home shortly before noon from a trip to a Home Depot store and surprised the burglar, who claimed to be a workman.

When he tried to call 911, a scuffle broke out, Ramsey said.

"We fought for a while, and he eventually locked me in a room and left," Ramsey told Paula Woodward of 9News. "It wasn't that secure, but at that point, I decided the best thing I could do was let him get out of here, so I didn't try to resist anymore."

Ramsey, who suffered only superficial injuries, came out a few minutes later and called police.

He said the thief took his wallet, a computer, his wife Patsy's "Kmart jewelry" and some clothes. The intruder also may have taken some guns from the two-story, Mediterranean-style house, police said.

Patsy Ramsey was at a Bible study class, and the couple's teenage son, Burke, was in school at the time.

The break-in raised new security concerns, Ramsey said.

"It's a horrible invasion of your privacy and your feeling of safety. We certainly went through that with JonBenét. It certainly has resurfaced," he told Woodward.


... just FWIW...my husband of 18 years wouldn't know if my jewelry was K-Mart or Not...???...

how did John know Patsy's jewelry was K-MART?...really now/? .... I'm open-minded and all ears...please help me hear/understand!:dontknow:

Ivy
12-10-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Does Patsy Ramsey strike you as the type who peels potatoes?
Don't you think if the cops had other knives in the home that matched this one we have heard about that.
LHP thinks dollars before she answers any question.
I own several paring knives that aren't part of a set, as do many people I know, so even if the cops didn't find any knives in the Rs' house that match the potato knife, it doesn't mean the knife wasn't the Rs'. So what if Patsy doesn't peel potatoes, if she doesn't? I would bet that there aren't more than one or two households in the whole USA that don't have at least one paring knife, even if no one in the household peels potatoes. Anyway, do you honestly think the Intruder would have brought a kitchen paring knife with him instead a switchblade or hunting knife?

How would LHP saying the knife was one used in the Ramsey household to peel potatoes make money for her? I don't understand your reasoning, Toth. Anyway, she didn't only say she recognized it. She was specific about its use. That's significant.

The Rs wanted LE to think the Intruder brought the paring knife with him, and that is why they lied about it not being theirs. It was easier than trying to get LE to buy the idea that the Intruder would go to the trouble of rummaging through their kitchen drawers for a knife and then abandon it right outside JonBenet's room.

Imon128
12-10-2003, 01:56 PM
Patsy might not have peeled potatoes, but from the looks of her stature, she probably peeled some foods or cut them up to eat.

LHP identified that paring knife, I believe. Anybody who's raised kids also knows that kids of JB and Burke's age (and JAR and Melinda) use paring knives or any knife, for strange things at times. Also, Burke might have used it to whittle and left it on the counter for some reason.

Patsy probably just exercised her selective memory. Had SHE used the knife for pageantry things, I'm sure she'd have had some recall, whether she admitted it or not.

Goodness only knows.

Britt
12-10-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Does Patsy Ramsey strike you as the type who peels potatoes?

No, Toth. It makes a lot more sense that an intruder would carry a paring knife. You never know when you'll need to peel some potatoes.

Ivy
12-10-2003, 03:05 PM
LOL, Britt. :D

Jayelles
12-10-2003, 03:08 PM
Does Patsy Ramsey strike you as the type who peels potatoes?

Oh boy, have you got Patsy on one big pedestal?

Hate to shatter the illusion Toth, but yes, I think Patsy cooked for her family. Cooking for one's children is a demonstration of love in many cultures. Japanese mothers make a HUGE show of love for their children through food preparation. My older daughter once told me that if I *really* loved her, then I would cut her packed lunch carrots into little flowers and her tomatoes into little roses.

We know she made cup cakes and pancakes and picnics. Trust me, she peeled potatoes.

Imon128
12-10-2003, 03:08 PM
LOL, is right. That intruder probably put the paring knife in a bag with his spare leg, tape, rope, flashlight, spiderman web for getting through windows, ransom note prewritten in a bend-proof folder, rape kit, a parka for stray hair, a HiTek book sole to leave one print, and goodness knows what else that intruder brought through the window.

K777angel
12-10-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Please explain how you know it came from their kitchen when neither of the Ramseys are able to identify it and even the housekeeper can not identify it and there are no similar, matched-set knives in the kitchen?

No Toth. YOU please explain how YOU know so much (or always claim you know so much) about each of the Ramseys.
Like how "there are no similar, matched-set knives in the kitchen"? How would YOU know that?
Or that John Ramsesy potatoes "came from a box."

Over and over again...... thou doth protest far too much and far too "sensitively." MMhhmmmmmm.

Jayelles
12-10-2003, 04:31 PM
K777Angel - have you ever considered that someone with a fixation about Patsy Ramsey, might fantasise about being John Ramsey?

K777angel
12-10-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
K777Angel - have you ever considered that someone with a fixation about Patsy Ramsey, might fantasise about being John Ramsey?

Nope. But I have considered the "real deal."


:eek:

Toltec
12-10-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Jayelles
K777Angel - have you ever considered that someone with a fixation about Patsy Ramsey, might fantasise about being John Ramsey?

TEE HEE!

JR: I just remember just talking and, "Come on baby." And I tried to untie her arms. They were tied up behind her head...

LS: Were they tied tight?

JR: Yeah, very tight...her skin was swollen around. And they were not easy to get off.

JR: ...I mean, yeah, I think her feet were exposed...her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head.

TRYING TO HOLD HER HEAD???? WAS JONBENET HANGING?

Imon128
12-10-2003, 05:52 PM
Why didn't that numnut try to give JB CPR??? Why was he so concerned about her hands being tied? Was it because he knew that was really stupid? Probably, but that's....yes, JMO.

Toltec
12-10-2003, 06:01 PM
ls: There is a knife on the counter. What do you recall about that?

JR: Um, nothing. That looks like a kitchen-a knife that would normally be in the kitchen. It's hard to tell. Looks like it might be a grapefruite knife or something. We normally didn't prepare any food at that counter.

LS: Do you ever recall that knife being there before?

JR: I don't recall, no.

Ivy
12-10-2003, 06:07 PM
Thanks, Toltec! In the quotes you just posted, John didn't deny the knife was one of theirs. In fact, he seemed to accept that it was. (Hey, Toth, what say you now?)

Imon128
12-10-2003, 06:11 PM
Just grapefruits, not potatoes. Does John like grapefruit? Did he use a grapefruit knife? Seems somewhat odd a grapefruit utensil would be near the dipees and washer, but that whole family, sans JB, seems a little odd.

Nehemiah
12-10-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Toltec


TRYING TO HOLD HER HEAD???? WAS JONBENET HANGING?


My question, too, Toltec.

Toth
12-10-2003, 07:52 PM
JR: Um, nothing. That looks like a kitchen-a knife that would normally be in the kitchen. It's hard to tell. Looks like it might be a grapefruite knife or something. We normally didn't prepare any food at that counter. Do you interpret this to be "That looks like OUR kitchen knife that would normally be in OUR kitchen"?

Imon128
12-10-2003, 07:54 PM
Who else's knife would JR be speaking about, unless he differentiated? And he didn't.

Toth
12-10-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Ivy
Thanks, Toltec! In the quotes you just posted, John didn't deny the knife was one of theirs. In fact, he seemed to accept that it was. (Hey, Toth, what say you now?) Since the Ramseys found the photo showed very little and asked to see the actual knife but were refused, I would say that at no time did John Ramsey agree that the knife was theirs.

why_nutt
12-10-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Since the Ramseys found the photo showed very little and asked to see the actual knife but were refused, I would say that at no time did John Ramsey agree that the knife was theirs.

After the fiasco of the Santa bear, in which Patsy denied recognizing a bear which a third party inconveniently proved she brought home herself, the family's word on what they did not own is worthless.

Ivy
12-10-2003, 08:41 PM
Toth, John could see the knife well enough in the photo to think it might be a grapefruit knife. Anyway, how do you know the Rs asked to see actual knife and were refused? Please post a legitimate source for that info. It sounds hinky to me.

You are right that in the quoted passages above, John didn't come out and say, "Yes, that is one of our paring knives," but he didn't deny it was.

Imon128
12-10-2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Toth
Since the Ramseys found the photo showed very little and asked to see the actual knife but were refused, I would say that at no time did John Ramsey agree that the knife was theirs.

Whenever did John ask to see the actual knife? When and where did John say that he could see little from the photo?

Maxi
12-10-2003, 11:40 PM
I think John ripped the tape off of JBR's mouth before trying to get the cord off her hands.

Toltec
12-13-2003, 10:25 PM
John tried to hold JonBenets head.

John ripped the tape from JB's mouth.

John tried to untie the cords from JB's wrists which he claimed were on very tight.

John removed the blanket which was wrapped "papoose" style on JonBenet.

John held JonBenet.

ALL THIS BEFORE FLEET...WHO HEARD JOHN"S IMMEDIATE SCREAM...WHO WAS 10-20 FEET FROM HIM...ENTERED THE ROOM???

Eagle1
01-07-2004, 08:08 PM
At another forum they're saying Burke's Swiss Army knife was red. Not that it makes any difference that I can see but does that give anyone any ideas? The kitchen knife may have been used to cut cord, they theorized.

If not, I think Ivy's explanation works, that Burke may have been whittling with the kitchen knife because LHP had hidden his red knife, which he somehow found and just threw the other one on the counter where it was found. There really would have been some kind of knife needed to cut cord, I think.

Nehemiah
11-26-2005, 10:56 AM
With regards to the bondage Barbie found on the lawn, were the arms tied over the head and then to the ankles?

We know that the rope dangling on JB's wrist was long...Could it have been tied to her ankles, like a replica of the outside Barbie?

Summergirl
11-26-2005, 04:10 PM
I dont know if I believe this, but her arms were above her head, like Jesus on the cross.

Well here are some pictures of the Barbies that I have found:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/summergirls0323/barbie4s.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/summergirls0323/barbie3s.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/summergirls0323/barbie1s.jpg

Brefie
11-26-2005, 05:49 PM
The standard crucifix depicts Jesus with his arms out to the side.

txsvicki
11-27-2005, 02:37 AM
With regards to the bondage Barbie found on the lawn, were the arms tied over the head and then to the ankles?

We know that the rope dangling on JB's wrist was long...Could it have been tied to her ankles, like a replica of the outside Barbie?


I must have missed something. There was a Barbie tied up in this way found on the Ramsey's lawn?

narlacat
11-27-2005, 05:11 AM
There was a barbie doll found on the front lawn of the Ramsey's ex house in 1998. It was in bondage with a white cord around its neck and a red spot on its gown in the vaginal area.
Jeff Shapiro found the doll and turned it over to LE.
There was a guy who lived in the area who went by the name of The Prophet, he was a student at CU, he had a thing with Barbie Dolls and hung naked Barbies from the ceiling of a local diner (with the owner's permission). He also wrote an essay titled ' Barbie Doll, the ultimate **** which was on his website.
He was investigated and cleared.

Nehemiah
11-27-2005, 07:49 AM
Thanks, Summer.

I knew that JB's were over her head, but I had wondered if the Barbie was in the very same position, with the rope tied from the arms to ankles. Apparently not; the arms are positioned differently.

Summergirl
11-27-2005, 12:56 PM
Your welcome, Nehemiah.

I personally think the Barbies are a sick joke by someone either visiting Boulder or a student at CU.

But I do have a question- Like someone said, this was thrown at the house in 98- did the media and rest of the Country find out JonBenet was tied up with her arms above her head? I dont remember when everyone found out- if wasnt leaked out by that time- maybe the barbies ARE from the killer, because how else would he know JonBenet was tied with her hands over her head?

Just a thought.

Nehemiah
11-27-2005, 01:32 PM
The Barbies' arms are tied behind their backs.

Summergirl
11-27-2005, 01:35 PM
The Barbies' arms are tied behind their backs.

Even if it wasnt exactly how JonBenet was.. how would the sicko know that she was tied up like that? Unless reports leaked about JonBenet being tied sort of like the Barbies.

Voice of Reason
11-27-2005, 02:18 PM
And John Ramsey laughed and said in his house, potatoes come from a box.
do john or patsy strike you as the type who have half a clue as to what utensils are in their kitchen? is that your flashlight? i don't know. is that burke's baseball bat? i don't know. is that your paring knife? oh, definitely not. i can't tell you for sure whether patsy peeled potatoes, but i'd bet you john never did anything in that kitchen. and it would make sense that LHP knew about the knife since she probably did a lot of her work in the kitchen.

Rupert
11-28-2005, 10:11 AM
It would not make sense for a staging to tie the hands and rest them down on her chest. It would make more sense to position them over her head.

If it was an intruder, then surely the perp would tie her hands above her head while she was stunned, so as to immobilize her.

She was no doubt garroted face down. If her hands were tied then, they must have been raised above her head. Otherwise the autopsy would have pointed something out. Her hands were tied with the same cord. Which came first the tying of hands or the tying of the garrote?


Simply put:

If the cord was cut first to immobilize her by tying her hands above her head, then that would support the intruder theory.

If the cord was cut first to set up the garrote, then that would support the staging theory.

Now, a cord is a linear thing with a start and a finish. Is there a way to tell which end is the start? If so, then they could line up the cord cuts and figure which happened first: the tying of her hands or the set up of the garrote.

Hint: the first cut could be done by something different than the paring knife. Under microscope, I'm sure they can tell different cuts and they must still have the cord.

Nuisanceposter
11-28-2005, 10:44 AM
Those are really good points. Does anyone know what testing was done on the cord and what the findings were?

lannie
11-28-2005, 11:42 AM
We saw her hands in several leaked photos & there is no damage from the cords, also autopsy does not list any damage to wrists so cord must of been put on after she was either garroted or hit on the head, for staging .
John did carry her up the stairs with her stiff arms stright up over her head,what a sight that must of been, no wonder patsy did not go running to see what was happing ,she already knew ,in my HP.

Nuisanceposter
11-28-2005, 12:10 PM
Yes, I don't think the wrist-tying was for restraint. I think she knew her killer, and went along with what was done out of fear and being accustomed to being compliant with this person, and didn't seek to fight back until she was choking and struggled against the rope around her neck in survival instinct.

If there's no damage to her wrists from the cord being around them, that surely suggests staging...same as with the tape over her mouth. When tested, it showed no signs of having been present over her lips while she was alive, meaning it hadn't been struggled against. I'm willing to bet the wrists were bound after she died. Were there any defense wounds on her hands or arms? If this was an intruder hurting her, I guarantee she would have tried to fight him off.

Summergirl
11-28-2005, 12:52 PM
I dont think JonBenet knew her killer, BUT I think the killer knew her family very well.

The ransom note has too many similarites towards John.. but I think the killer assumed that John, like Patsy, grew up in the South.

I think the killer did alot of research before the night of JonBenet's murder.

I also think that JonBenet's killer was a sex offender. I dont think he is a registered sex offender because BPD or BDA would been on his ass ASAP when they went through the list of Sex Offenders in Boulder County

Maybe he used the cords to keep JonBenets hands up in the air so she couldnt smack him, while he was molesting her.

This case has let people so many questions :bang:

Nuisanceposter
11-28-2005, 01:07 PM
Well, if he tied her hands to restrain her, there would be scraping and/or bruising on her wrists from it. I'm sure she would have tried to pull her hands down to fight him off, especially once he turned to sexually abusing her, definitely when she was being asphyxiated. Weren't there some marks on her neck consistent with her trying to relieve the pressure of the cord suffocating her? If there were, and that's what those marks are from, then she wasn't restrained by the wrists during the murder.

Summergirl
11-28-2005, 01:11 PM
Well, if he tied her hands to restrain her, there would be scraping and/or bruising on her wrists from it. I'm sure she would have tried to pull her hands down to fight him off, especially once he turned to sexually abusing her, definitely when she was being asphyxiated. Weren't there some marks on her neck consistent with her trying to relieve the pressure of the cord suffocating her? If there were, and that's what those marks are from, then she wasn't restrained by the wrists during the murder.

Saldy, in the autopsy photos, she tried getting the cord around her neck off of her. There are fingernail marks on her neck. How sad.

I think she was kncoed out by a Stun Gun and while she was knocked out, put the cord on her hands.

lannie
11-28-2005, 01:33 PM
No stun gun, this was never evedience, why not stick to what was present, she was almost dead from being strangled,I then hit in the head, so need to stun gun her, besides stun guns do not knok you out,yes the marks sure did look like they may of came from her,but none of her blood or skin was under her nails,some people think the cresent shapes came from a ring Pat would wear backwards or it twisted on the finger.

Nuisanceposter
11-28-2005, 01:43 PM
I agree, there's really no evidence a stun gun was used. A couple of unexplained marks do not a stun gun crime make.

Why would the killer tie her hands to restrain her while he strangled her but not tight enough to prevent her from clawing at her own neck while he strangled her? That's not restraint. And if she was stun gunned, did the strangulation revive her enough to try to remove the object closing off her neck? I don't see how else that could work.

Nehemiah
11-28-2005, 03:46 PM
If there's no damage to her wrists from the cord being around them, that surely suggests staging...same as with the tape over her mouth. When tested, it showed no signs of having been present over her lips while she was alive, meaning it hadn't been struggled against. I'm willing to bet the wrists were bound after she died. Were there any defense wounds on her hands or arms? If this was an intruder hurting her, I guarantee she would have tried to fight him off.

I'm not where I can get to a book to verify this, but didn't John state that the cord was tied very tightly around her wrist?

Rupert
11-29-2005, 12:26 AM
Well, if he tied her hands to restrain her, there would be scraping and/or bruising on her wrists from it. I'm sure she would have tried to pull her hands down to fight him off, especially once he turned to sexually abusing her, definitely when she was being asphyxiated. Weren't there some marks on her neck consistent with her trying to relieve the pressure of the cord suffocating her? If there were, and that's what those marks are from, then she wasn't restrained by the wrists during the murder.
Bang on! I was going to say no need to analyze the cuts of the cord, but look how obvious the following picture is:
http://www.jameson245.com/garotte.htm(Thanks Jams)

It is obvious that the cord wrapped around the garrote was melted at the end. This wasn't done during the tousle which bound JonBenet's hair up in the cord. No indeed. It must have been done before and therefore the cord around the garrote was prepared first. In contrast, the cord around the wrists were both frayed by a knife cut. Thus the cord around the wrists was prepared after the garrote and after the hair was bound up in a tousle. It is now obvious to me that the tying of the hands was nothing but staging.

That is absolutely consistent with the point made above by nuisanceposter: that JonBenet must have had her hands free in order to grab at the cord around her neck. They could not have been tied up when she was garroted.

Leaving that melted end of the cord was an oversight.

Nuisanceposter
11-29-2005, 07:50 AM
I'm not where I can get to a book to verify this, but didn't John state that the cord was tied very tightly around her wrist?
I consider John Ramsey to be less than truthful when it comes to talking about his daughter's murder in the first place. In the picture Rupert has linked us to, the cord appears to be tied around but not exactly tight on JonBenet's wrist. Odd how it was tied over her sleeve cuff. I haven't ever tied any children up, but I would know that you don't tie their wrists over their cuffs because it would create too much give. You would tie the cord tight down to the skin if you were tying her wrists to restrain her while you abused and strangled her, or else she might be able to work it loose and get her hand free. And if she was able to grab at the cord around her neck as she was being strangled, that tells you right there that her wrists were not bound to restrain her hands...it was added later as staging.

lannie
11-29-2005, 09:31 AM
your right she was tied to nicely ,that cord over the sleeve is just to pretty, she never struggled after it was tied to her, no wonder the FBI said look at the parents.

UKGuy
11-29-2005, 11:02 AM
An interpretation of JonBenet's homicide that I lean towards is, rather than that of a simple Intruder or Ramsey did it, is that of either an accident or unplanned homicide that is then covered up with multiple stagings.

An example of an accident would be Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory, an unplanned homicide could be BlueCrab's theory that JonBenet was taking part in some form of Erotic Asphyxiation activity that went disastrously wrong.

JonBenet's arms may be above her head because prior to death that is where they were, either by design or circumstance.

By design would include being tied as a form of restraint, or constrained say by a pillow or other item. By circumstance would be her choice to raise her arms to rest above her head, or an attempt to release or relax the tension in a noose.

It may be that the original role of the cord is different from its final appearance. Its original purpose may simply have been that of a restraint. Or it may have played no part in her death.

That is the noose, the broken paintbrush, are part of the consequent staging, the difficulty is deciding which part, since there was probably two and possibly three or more staging episodes.

If you look over the photographs linked by Rupert, and concentrate on the neck injuries, then you may note that there are more injuries and abrasions to her neck, these exceed that of a straight forward noose asphyxiation. That is her asphyxiation may have been achieved by some other item.

Some of the items found in wine-cellar were available in the basement e.g. paintbrush , duct-tape, the cord may or may not have originated in the basement. If you consider the trouble taken to partially stage and remove forensic evidence, then its valid to assume the inclusion of her Barbie-Gown was intended to play a part in her final staging. The person who had final access to JonBenet's body could have removed the Barbie-Gown as he/she left the wine-cellar and simply tossed it aside, or placed it in the laundry-room. But unlike her size-6 underwear, and possibly her socks, it remained!

The relevant point being you dont decide to abduct and asphyxiate a 6-year old girl simply employing material that comes to hand, found by chance, in a dark basement. Similarly if you are either a Ramsey or an intruder, and intend to engage JonBenet in some form of Erotic Asphyxiation, you dont rush down to the basement to look for a piece of wood, and if you are a Ramsey, surely you dont use one of Patsy's painbrushes, knowing full well, its one of her hobbies and interests. And if you are Burke and experienced in whittling wood, then you will have something to hand or can construct something more purposeful than a broken paintbrush, and do it in a planned manner.

So if her arms are above her head this may simply be a rigor-mortis posture, or it may be a consequence of her being posed as part of the first episode in her staging, which becomes a post-mortem posture, this is possible since her arms are still above her head after being wrapped in the white blanket. This posing may have been intended to obscure that her arms were initially above her head as a form of restraint, but the relocation of her body, makes that posing obvious, so the white cord is tied over her white sleeves and around her wrists. This staging suggestion may be confirmed if you consider as JonBenet was being asphyxiated, we can all assume she vigorously attempted to avoid this, but the white cord tied around the arms of her white gap top, show no sign of movement or disturbance, that is the loop is neat and there are no signs of a struggle or abrasions on her wrists!

So it appears JonBenet's hands may have been above her head simply because she was originally restrained in that manner.

The purpose of her restraint is open to speculation, but her posture would appear to suggest she was originally lying on a bed.

Shanny
11-29-2005, 12:13 PM
I have 2 questions about the cord

1. Where in the house did the cord come from ? Did the police ever look into that?
Because to me the cord looks like a shoe string
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg

2. Autopsy Report:
[Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the
shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which
measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail
of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double
loop knot.]
People wonder why the cord was tied so loosely around Jonbenet's wrist, I am wondering could it have been from John trying to untie her arms when he found her ?

Rupert
11-29-2005, 06:04 PM
I have 2 questions about the cord

1. Where in the house did the cord come from ? Did the police ever look into that?
Because to me the cord looks like a shoe string
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg

2. Autopsy Report:
[Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the
shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which
measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail
of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double
loop knot.]
People wonder why the cord was tied so loosely around Jonbenet's wrist, I am wondering could it have been from John trying to untie her arms when he found her ?

Maybe it was loose because JR untied it somewhat. But, fact is that the cord was tied around her sleeve and not her wrist.

Fact is that the melted end starts on the garrote which suggests to me that the garrote was tied first. Wouldn't you want to restrain the arms first? And as brilliantly pointed out by Nusianceposter: the arms MUST HAVE BEEN FREE to leave the fingernail marks on her neck by the cord line (an autopsy fact). ALL this points preponderantly to the fact that the arms were raised and tied abover her head and this was indeed STAGING.

UKGuy
11-29-2005, 06:59 PM
I have 2 questions about the cord

1. Where in the house did the cord come from ? Did the police ever look into that?
Because to me the cord looks like a shoe string
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote4.jpg

2. Autopsy Report:
[Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the
shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which
measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail
of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double
loop knot.]
People wonder why the cord was tied so loosely around Jonbenet's wrist, I am wondering could it have been from John trying to untie her arms when he found her ?



Shanny,

This is possible but both JR's and FW's description of finding the body is that JR likely removed the piece of duct tape, which FW went back and retrieved for some unknown reason, then JR lifted JonBenet's body holding her upright and followed FW up the stairs. Once upstairs I dont think anyone attempted to remove any bindings.

UKGuy
11-29-2005, 07:18 PM
Maybe it was loose because JR untied it somewhat. But, fact is that the cord was tied around her sleeve and not her wrist.

Fact is that the melted end starts on the garrote which suggests to me that the garrote was tied first. Wouldn't you want to restrain the arms first? And as brilliantly pointed out by Nusianceposter: the arms MUST HAVE BEEN FREE to leave the fingernail marks on her neck by the cord line (an autopsy fact). ALL this points preponderantly to the fact that the arms were raised and tied abover her head and this was indeed STAGING.

Rupert,

I am bound to agree with you, no pun intended there. Interpreting the wine-cellar crime-scene as staged is significant, since it allows you to consider other avenues.

Since her hands were above her head, and if you dont consider this to be the result of circumstance and rigor-mortis, then it may be possible to view her prior posture as an example of post-homicide posing?

The person who left her in her final position may have undone a previous staging where she was sitting, bound by her arms or neck to some item of furniture, or simply hogtied, say on a bed, since her feet and ankles were bare, when she was discovered, but this does not mean the cord may not have encircled her socks in the same manner they did the sleeves of her white gap top?

An interesting question is from where is it likely that JonBenet's body was relocated, since who ever did so, realized there was something wrong with that location, and also proceeded with additional staging?

Rupert
11-29-2005, 10:17 PM
Rupert,

I am bound to agree with you, no pun intended there. Interpreting the wine-cellar crime-scene as staged is significant, since it allows you to consider other avenues.

Since her hands were above her head, and if you dont consider this to be the result of circumstance and rigor-mortis, then it may be possible to view her prior posture as an example of post-homicide posing?

The person who left her in her final position may have undone a previous staging where she was sitting, bound by her arms or neck to some item of furniture, or simply hogtied, say on a bed, since her feet and ankles were bare, when she was discovered, but this does not mean the cord may not have encircled her socks in the same manner they did the sleeves of her white gap top?

An interesting question is from where is it likely that JonBenet's body was relocated, since who ever did so, realized there was something wrong with that location, and also proceeded with additional staging?
UKGuy,
I just cannot speculate any further as you have until I see evidence of prior staging. It just seems pure and simple to me that she was first garroted and then had her hands tied up behind her head. I can start to ask the question why the perp would do this and speculate that the reason was to make it look like a sexual bondage thing. But why the sexual bondage thing? I mean, I thought this was about $118k. Maybe it was to diffuse and divert attention away from an accident or maybe on the other hand to make a particular statement.

The statement thing with the Barbie Doll makes me intrigued. Should they check out the Prohet again? If it was an intruder, I believe it was a statement. If it was RDI, then it was either a clumsy cover up or an intimate statement.

Nehemiah
12-05-2005, 07:36 AM
Rupert,

I am bound to agree with you, no pun intended there. Interpreting the wine-cellar crime-scene as staged is significant, since it allows you to consider other avenues.

Since her hands were above her head, and if you dont consider this to be the result of circumstance and rigor-mortis, then it may be possible to view her prior posture as an example of post-homicide posing?

The person who left her in her final position may have undone a previous staging where she was sitting, bound by her arms or neck to some item of furniture, or simply hogtied, say on a bed, since her feet and ankles were bare, when she was discovered, but this does not mean the cord may not have encircled her socks in the same manner they did the sleeves of her white gap top?

An interesting question is from where is it likely that JonBenet's body was relocated, since who ever did so, realized there was something wrong with that location, and also proceeded with additional staging?

Which brings me back around to John Walsh's comment that "JR cut her down." We never knew if that were a mistake on his part, or inside information that he had been privy to and blurted out. That would fall in line with what you are saying, UK Guy.

UKGuy
12-05-2005, 08:41 PM
Which brings me back around to John Walsh's comment that "JR cut her down." We never knew if that were a mistake on his part, or inside information that he had been privy to and blurted out. That would fall in line with what you are saying, UK Guy.

Nehemiah,

Yes, assuming John Walsh's comment was not uninformed speculation. The difficult part is disentangling the staging from what may have taken place.

The person who staged the wine-cellar was attempting to obscure and re-pose JonBenet with another scene in mind, thats why I always remind people her barbie nightgown was found beside her body, and that was not accidental, particularly when you consider the probability that other items such as her origiinal underwear or socks may have been removed.

If JR had "cut her down", then seems reasonable to assume she was constrained in some manner, either by her neck or/and arms.

She may have been indecently posed, and a charitable interpretation is that JR decided to redress and relocate her prior to allowing her to be discovered, this is a common occurence in domestic homicides, particularly those involving erotic asphyxiation.

But I speculate that it was a now prior staging that no longer fitted the revised circumstances and was possibly at variance with some of the contents of the ransom note, that led to JonBenet being relocated to the wine-cellar, which in the stagers mind was a temporary location, once redressed, she could be relocated to a more appropriate environment.

Although there are no abrasions from cord on her wrists or ankles this does not rule out her being constrained in such a manner, possibly to some device, or household item, this may explain the abrasions on her ankles , back, and neck, possibly as the result of the pressure from knots or points on the device, e.g. bedposts. She may have been partially dressed, still wearing her socks, also just suppose someone has decided to redress her, he/she just grabs her white gap top, since it lying close, and opens her dresser drawer for those size-12 underwear, now that person was not looking for new undwerwear they were looking for the Wednesday day-of-the-week pair, this was the rationale here, not the size, the color, or how new they were!

So summarizing I dont think JonBenet, was discovered by the wine-cellar stager hanging by her wrists, since she has no abrasions or rope burns on her wrists, also during her strangulation her hands must have been free to fight against it.

So either the white cord is wholly staging, including the length encircling her neck, or it played a part in her prior staging, where she was potrayed as bound and tethered, possibly hogtied, even indecently, all as the result of some imagined or actual criminal process!

Nehemiah
12-05-2005, 10:27 PM
That was a very thought-provoking post.

How would one account for liver mortis in your scenario?

So, are you theorizing that she was murdered and staged, and someone different came along and re-staged?

The thought about the panties sounds like the best explanation I've heard: the perp was just looking for that day of the week, because it was Wednesday. We've often wondered why he/she chose a large size panty, but that would account for that reason.

Becba
12-05-2005, 10:34 PM
The autopsy doesn't agree with her being hung by her arms. John Walsh may have spoke what he was suspecting at the time.

I recall when 2 girls were kidnapped from their boyfriends and a spokesperson was saying they did not believe the boyfriends and they looked drugged up. The police did not even help the guys get untied from the duct tape. Turned out they were kidnapped and their abducter was shot on a high speed chase.
Just saying people in the know do make judgements and they can be wrong .

Nehemiah
12-05-2005, 10:45 PM
It would not make sense for a staging to tie the hands and rest them down on her chest. It would make more sense to position them over her head.

If it was an intruder, then surely the perp would tie her hands above her head while she was stunned, so as to immobilize her.

She was no doubt garroted face down. If her hands were tied then, they must have been raised above her head. Otherwise the autopsy would have pointed something out.

Rupert, those are excellent points to consider. If one came into her bedroom, stunned her, knocked her in the head or whatever it took to immobilize her...doesn't it seem unnatural and some what of bother to pull her arms up and tie? Isn't it simpler to just pull them behind her back and tie them together? Unless she were suspended in some way, I can't envision a reason for tying her arms above her head. Any ideas that I'm missing?

Nehemiah
12-05-2005, 10:47 PM
The autopsy doesn't agree with her being hung by her arms. John Walsh may have spoke what he was suspecting at the time.

I recall when 2 girls were kidnapped from their boyfriends and a spokesperson was saying they did not believe the boyfriends and they looked drugged up. The police did not even help the guys get untied from the duct tape. Turned out they were kidnapped and their abducter was shot on a high speed chase.
Just saying people in the know do make judgements and they can be wrong .

Yes, I totally agree.

Any ideas of why her arms were above her head, as opposed to behind her back?

Rupert
12-06-2005, 03:30 AM
Yes, I totally agree.

Any ideas of why her arms were above her head, as opposed to behind her back?
I think simply because her arms were not restrained during the garroting. She was turned over and then the staging happened. When she was lying on her back you couldn't very well tie her hands underneath. No, it was obvious her hands were tied after and tied above her head to look like bondage staging.

Nehemiah
12-06-2005, 08:35 AM
I think simply because her arms were not restrained during the garroting. She was turned over and then the staging happened. When she was lying on her back you couldn't very well tie her hands underneath. No, it was obvious her hands were tied after and tied above her head to look like bondage staging.
To clarify my other post, I am envisioning that she is on her stomach, garrotting occurring...doesn't it seem awkward to pull her arms up over her head at that point?

Cranberry
12-06-2005, 08:43 AM
To clarify my other post, I am envisioning that she is on her stomach, garrotting occurring...doesn't it seem awkward to pull her arms up over her head at that point?
Maybe the arms were pulled up for the redressing of the shirt and then the cord was tied to the wrists

UKGuy
12-06-2005, 11:13 AM
That was a very thought-provoking post.

How would one account for liver mortis in your scenario?

So, are you theorizing that she was murdered and staged, and someone different came along and re-staged?

The thought about the panties sounds like the best explanation I've heard: the perp was just looking for that day of the week, because it was Wednesday. We've often wondered why he/she chose a large size panty, but that would account for that reason.

Nehemiah,

Yes an initial staging or amateur cover up. This feature could correspond with the scenario sketched out in the original "abduction note" which would have been penned on pages 17-25 of the pad, but those pages were ripped out, and removed, the police never ever found them. Only the drafts from page 26 onwards remain. Why remove forensic evidence unless it is at variance with the deceased's current disposition or incriminates the remover directly?

Since I am not certain as to the timing or onset of the liver mortis, this makes it difficult to judge if she was never moved or reposed.

If JonBenet was redressed after strangulation, then her arms may be above her head to accomodate her white gap top, she may have been wearing entirely different clothing, or none at all during her strangulation. But I am willing to guess JonBenet never went to bed wearing that white gap top, especially when her bedclothes were under her pillow, and she had worn them the night before, as seen in her xmas-day photo! Just as its incongruent for Patsy to wear the same clothes two days running, similarly for JonBenet to wear her day clothing to bed, she was not lost for clothing.

Some other aspects are JonBenet's hair ties and pigtails, lack of socks, her size-12 underwear, white longjohns, no urine stains on the wine-cellar floor. Some of these may relate to a prior staging occurrence, or they may partially represent an attempt at obscuring the intended scenario that was to chime with the alleged missing contents from "abduction note" #1.

So the simplest explanation for arms above her head is either circumstance and rigor mortis brought them there or she was redressed, as in re-clothed from being nude or her other clothing was replaced.

Its an open question if she was redressed in the white longjohns and size-12 underwear in the basement or say upstairs on a bed, but she appears to have been wiped down after being redressed.

So I am convinced there were at least two staging events, the purpose of say the second, I am not certain about, since it may have been to hide the fact that JonBenet had been indecently posed, or to remove evidence of a prior staging that was to match the contents of the missing "abduction note" #1.

Rupert
12-06-2005, 11:33 PM
To clarify my other post, I am envisioning that she is on her stomach, garrotting occurring...doesn't it seem awkward to pull her arms up over her head at that point?
To clarify my post also, I believe she was garroted while lying on her stomach. Her hands were not yet tied and she grabbed the garrote perhaps as a basic reflex and a scream of surprise and alarm rang out. Then she was turned over in her final repose and her hands were then tied up above her head.

txsvicki
12-07-2005, 01:38 AM
None of it makes any sense to me. If JonBenet were conscious or able to move when she was garrotted or sexually assaulted, then why is there no bruising on her body and no signs of a struggle and no gag? Her hair wasn't really even messed up. I just can't believe that a little girl would willingly go down into a cold dark scary basement with anyone late at night like that unless just maybe someone told her that more presents were hidden down in that room.

trixie
12-07-2005, 02:11 AM
Regarding any bruising and signs of struggle, I am sure I'm in the minority on this but I don't think now nor have I ever thought that the full and complete autopsy report was ever released to the public. I'm not saying what was released was fake, I just think there is another more full and complete report kept from us the public in this case.There are things we don't know in there and that is what makes it harder to decipher what may have actually happened that night. We can go round and round and we do because we don't really have all the facts. I'd be willing to bet if we could see the full and complete report some people might even change their theories. Just IMO.

Nuisanceposter
12-07-2005, 07:21 AM
I also suspect we the public have not seen a more complete autopsy and that one exists that is being kept private.

I also think that there is not very much bruising, defensive wounds, signs of struggle, etc., because the killer was someone JonBenet knew very well and was accustomed to being compliant with - such as either one of her parents. I think she was also afraid to resist, and had been part of a "game" like the one that killed her before...although not to the extent that was carried out that Christmas night.

I'm not sure if she died in the basement, I kinda think she was moved and arranged in the basement after her death as staging.

She probably screamed, neighbors claim to have heard it, but I doubt it was as the garrote was cinching ever tighter around her neck, causing her to claw at it to catch a breath. I believe she clawed at the cord around her neck reflexively, and if it's strangling her so bad that she unconscioucly reached up and desperately tore at it with her little fingers, making scratches in her neck, then she can't fill her lungs with enough breath to belt out a scream that could be heard outside the house.

Moab
12-07-2005, 08:20 AM
According to the Ramseys, their basement wasn’t cold, as evidenced by John Ramsey’s version of why the window was open down there. He said when he and Burke would be down there in the Winter playing with the trains, they would get warm, and they often opened the window some.


Ordinarily, I might agree with the “original” version of the autopsy being withheld from the public, but in this case with as many documents, facts, comments, etc. that were leaked or sold, I can’t imagine that to be true. I think on this one, what you see is all there was.

Linda7NJ
12-07-2005, 09:21 AM
I also suspect we the public have not seen a more complete autopsy and that one exists that is being kept private.

I also think that there is not very much bruising, defensive wounds, signs of struggle, etc., because the killer was someone JonBenet knew very well and was accustomed to being compliant with - such as either one of her parents. I think she was also afraid to resist, and had been part of a "game" like the one that killed her before...although not to the extent that was carried out that Christmas night.

I'm not sure if she died in the basement, I kinda think she was moved and arranged in the basement after her death as staging.

She probably screamed, neighbors claim to have heard it, but I doubt it was as the garrote was cinching ever tighter around her neck, causing her to claw at it to catch a breath. I believe she clawed at the cord around her neck reflexively, and if it's strangling her so bad that she unconsciously reached up and desperately tore at it with her little fingers, making scratches in her neck, then she can't fill her lungs with enough breath to belt out a scream that could be heard outside the house.
I do not think it's possible for an unconscious person to claw at their neck, even if that person is being strangled.

Nuisanceposter
12-07-2005, 10:23 AM
Do you think she was unconsious when she was strangled? The marks on her neck made by her own fingernails dispute that. She was conscious and struggling to remove the cord so she could breathe. I said she "unconsciously reached up and desperately tore at it" to imply that she wouldn't have done it on purpose (I think because she was afraid to disobey her molester), and the drive to survive kicked in, causing her to dig at her own neck in effort to breathe. Her hands could not have been restrained at that point, or she would not have been able to reach her neck...why else would a molester strangling a child not tie her hands up? Because JonBenet knew the molester, this has happened before, and she knew better than to resist.

ellen13
12-07-2005, 10:27 AM
good point

Linda7NJ
12-07-2005, 10:53 AM
Do you think she was unconscious when she was strangled? The marks on her neck made by her own fingernails dispute that. She was conscious and struggling to remove the cord so she could breathe. I said she "unconsciously reached up and desperately tore at it" to imply that she wouldn't have done it on purpose (I think because she was afraid to disobey her molester), and the drive to survive kicked in, causing her to dig at her own neck in effort to breathe. Her hands could not have been restrained at that point, or she would not have been able to reach her neck...why else would a molester strangling a child not tie her hands up? Because JonBenet knew the molester, this has happened before, and she knew better than to resist.
:doh: I misunderstood your post, I thought you meant she was not conscious.....never mind...I agree with you 100%

Rupert
12-07-2005, 10:45 PM
Do you think she was unconsious when she was strangled? The marks on her neck made by her own fingernails dispute that. She was conscious and struggling to remove the cord so she could breathe. I said she "unconsciously reached up and desperately tore at it" to imply that she wouldn't have done it on purpose (I think because she was afraid to disobey her molester), and the drive to survive kicked in, causing her to dig at her own neck in effort to breathe. Her hands could not have been restrained at that point, or she would not have been able to reach her neck...why else would a molester strangling a child not tie her hands up? Because JonBenet knew the molester, this has happened before, and she knew better than to resist.
You have a point there Nuisanceposter. To be clear and face the facts: no blood in the head wound suggests the garroting came first, but I think she might have come out of her paralysis once the effects of the stun gun wore off, or after she woke up. It has been suggested that the garroting happened up in the bedroom while she was asleep, but alas the garrote was fashioned from the paintbrush which was down in the basement. It has also been suggested that she might have voluntarily gone down to the basement after having some pineapple, but the garlands in the hair suggest she was carried downstairs. So, perhaps she was stun gunned in her bed, carried down to the basement, garroted and bashed outside the windowless room, and then hidden in the room. The head bash fits with JonBenet face down, almost if not dead and then headbashed with a heavy weapon, very controlled and close to be so precise without breaking the skin. This sounds like IDI but is not necessarily so. If you follow the facts pre and post the murder what do you get?