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tybee204
09-02-2005, 01:14 AM
I lost a thread in moving. I dunno what happen. Something glitched so please continue here.

Nova
09-02-2005, 01:16 AM
I lost a thread in moving. I dunno what happen. Something glitched so please continue here.

If it was the thread I'm looking for, it is probably just as well it was lost.

Thank you for collecting all these topics together.

tybee204
09-02-2005, 01:22 AM
LOL I probably hit wrong button trying to figure out where to put this forum.

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 02:54 AM
Storm victims were raped and beaten, fights and fires broke out, corpses lay out in the open, and rescue helicopters and law enforcement officers were shot at as flooded-out New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday.

"This is a desperate SOS," the mayor said.

Anger mounted across the ruined city, with thousands of storm victims increasingly hungry, desperate and tired of waiting for buses to take them out.

"We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."

In hopes of defusing the unrest at the convention center, Mayor Ray Nagin gave the refugees permission to march across a bridge to the city's unflooded west bank for whatever relief they can find. But the bedlam at the center appeared to make leaving difficult.

A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.

National Guardsmen poured in to help restore order and put a stop to the looting, carjackings and gunfire that have gripped New Orleans in the days since Hurricane Katrina plunged much of the city under water.

A National Guard military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle, police Capt. Ernie Demmo said. The man was arrested.

"These are good people. These are just scared people," Demmo said.

Outside the Convention Center, the sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. Thousands of storm refugees had been assembling outside for days, waiting for buses that did not come.

At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry people broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find.
http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=101563

LinasK
09-02-2005, 03:53 AM
LOL I probably hit wrong button trying to figure out where to put this forum.
Is that why the boards were slow a little while ago?

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 05:52 AM
While you are out and about on the web, or if there are refugees in your area please watch for Aaron Sloneker (9 yo) or his father James Sloneker. Aaron lived with his father in Poplarville, Mississippi. I would be interested in any news of the father, the son, or the town of Popularville, Ms. Please PM me with any info. And thank you in advance for keeping an eye out.

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 06:27 AM
A reporter is embedded in a convoy to the disaster area with supplies. They will be recording the trip and Rich Jaffe will be submitting a blog of the trip- what they see in the different areas they go to. Here is his first blog entry.

http://wkrc.com/news/blog/jaffe.aspx

It looks like we've assembled a great team! Six deputies from the Butler County Sheriff's department, 7 volunteer truck drivers from three different companies, one ex-law enforcement ,now civilian from Wyoming, photographer Chris Hursh and myself. Yesterday none of us knew we'd be here together chasing a trail of destruction unlike anything this country has ever seen.
None of us really know what to expect. None of us knows how long we'll be gone. We don't know where we'll sleep, eat, or stop. All we know is Katrina is calling, and mixed in with that siren's call are the calls for help from thousands of victims along the Gulf Coast. We do know they desperately need the four truck loads of supplies we're hauling.

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 07:35 AM
``They don't have a clue what's going on down there,'' Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. ``Excuse my French -- everybody in America -- but I am pissed.''

At 4:35 a.m. today, an explosion rocked a chemical storage facility near the Mississippi River east of the French Quarter, said Lt. Michael Francis of the Harbor Police. A series of smaller blasts followed and then acrid, black smoke that could be seen even in the dark. The vibrations were felt all the way downtown.

Francis did not have any other information about the explosions and did not know if there were any casualties. At least two police boats could be seen at the scene.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco called the looters ``hoodlums'' and issued a warning to lawbreakers: Hundreds of National Guard troops hardened on the battlefield in Iraq have landed in New Orleans.

``They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded,'' she said. ``These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will.''

At the Superdome, group of refugees broke through a line of heavily armed National Guardsmen in a scramble to get on to the buses.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/weather/orl-bk-katrina090205,0,5624628.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 07:38 AM
About 4:35 this morning, a series of massive explosions rocked the riverfront a few miles south of the French Quarter. The cause of the blasts or the extent of any possible damage was not immediately known.

An initial explosion sent flames of red and orange shooting into the pre-dawn sky. A series of smaller blasts followed and then acrid, black smoke that could be seen even in the dark. The vibrations were felt all the way downtown.

The explosions appeared to originate close to the east bank of the Mississippi River, near a residential area and rail tracks. At least two police boats were at the scene.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/12543574.htm

Dark Knight
09-02-2005, 08:03 AM
(AP) At 4:35 a.m. Friday, an explosion rocked a chemical storage facility near the Mississippi River east of the French Quarter, said Lt. Michael Francis of the Harbor Police. A series of smaller blasts followed and then acrid, black smoke that could be seen even in the dark. The vibrations were felt all the way downtown.

Francis did not have any other information about the explosions and did not know if there were any casualties. At least two police boats could be seen at the scene and a hazardous material team was on route.

It was the opening strike in yet another day of sadly deteriorating conditions since Katrina slammed ashore Monday morning.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 09:03 AM
OK, I just watched cnn and he interviewed two nurse midwives at the airport. The airport has been turned into a make-shift triage. all the sick and wounded are going there.

They looked so kind; they are working around the clock - they say they need way more help. They are getting ALL the sick and wounded around there. They cannot handle it all; no charts of course. The soldiers are helping them and they say THE SOLDIERS HAVE BEEN WONDERFUL.

The medical people there are really having their hands full and also hands tied for so many reasons.

There is a huge fire at the railroad near the French Quarter.

Dr. so and so, from the Baylor College of Medicine says they are there and they are "there for the long haul" to help these people. (Houston)

Michael Chertoff has called the Federal Response "magnificent". The media are "choking" on these words as they look around seeing dead bodies with rats eating them.

The mayor describes the response as "inadequate". An expert speaker on CNN says no one can help but feel the response is inadequate. He says the President should be the FIRST ONE to be asking, "Why aren't things going better, faster"? He points out that FEMA identified this probability long ago.

Mary Landreau gives "praise for the response". Choke, choke (she's running for something, right?)

And on goes the rescue effort, like a herd of turtles in a cloud of dust. (Mtex)

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 10:14 AM
I am starting to get a lot of emails from the front.....family and friends. The Ritz Carlton Hotel has been turned into a hospital by doctors, nurses and pharmacists who were attending a convention. They were infectious disease physicians with no hands on but it is changing quickly. The police escorted them to Walgreen's where they broke in and wipe out all the things they needed for their hospital. The looters were right there waiting with armed police pointing their rifles at them.

Dr. Henderson said there is no National Guard presence near the Ritz and they hear gunshots all night long. He has limited access to the internet through the hotel. He said this is a soul edifying experience.

Shadow205
09-02-2005, 10:45 AM
A new fire has broken out. I didn't get the exact location but it is off of Canal St. near several large hotels. I am concerned about the explosion/fire that erupted this moring at the chemical warehouse. As if they don't have enough problems now they have toxic smoke in the air.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 10:45 AM
That is really scary. Are the soldiers able to do anything? I guess once they got all those guns, what can you do? It's like being in Iraq. Just horrible. I feel so sorry for these people - doctors and others are not prepared to go into gunfire to get their supplies.

My husband would like to go; but I doubt they need too many surgeons yet; mostly infectious and internist I would think. OBGYn. He's going to wait and see if some of them start making it up here.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 11:08 AM
Per Fox News just landed in Mobile, AL

redeskimo
09-02-2005, 11:29 AM
I just heard his interview with cnn , and I am impressed .He put it out there straight up . He cares for the people and the city . He's for real . This is the type of person that should be up front . When the big boy's get to hear this interview he may not have a job anymore . If you ask me , I would say Ray for president :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 11:32 AM
I happen to have on Fox News and does anyone notice that the Coast Guard guy (for lack of better formal name) looks a lot like President Bush? WOW!!

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 11:33 AM
I just heard his interview with cnn , and I am impressed .He put it out there straight up . He cares for the people and the city . He's for real . This is the type of person that should be up front . When the big boy's get to hear this interview he may not have a job anymore . If you ask me , I would say Ray for president :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: That's what they need...someone to stand up and tell what is exactly going on and quit sugar-coating it, IMO. :clap:

less0305
09-02-2005, 11:33 AM
Ray can talk now.....and don't get me wrong, I think he tells it like it is and I agree with lots of what he says.....but he needs to also look at the city's preplanning for a major disaster. They underestimated and didn't plan for catastrophic disaster.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 11:35 AM
Ray can talk now.....and don't get me wrong, I think he tells it like it is and I agree with lots of what he says.....but he needs to also look at the city's preplanning for a major disaster. They underestimated and didn't plan for catastrophic disaster.
True!! After they get these people out and hopefully into "homes" (whatever or wherever that may be) they definitely, IMO, need to address this and know they will. I'm disappointed with the response...understatement...but I hope we can learn from this.

SewingDeb
09-02-2005, 11:40 AM
I am starting to get a lot of emails from the front.....family and friends. The Ritz Carlton Hotel has been turned into a hospital by doctors, nurses and pharmacists who were attending a convention. They were infectious disease physicians with no hands on but it is changing quickly. The police escorted them to Walgreen's where they broke in and wipe out all the things they needed for their hospital. The looters were right there waiting with armed police pointing their rifles at them.

Dr. Henderson said there is no National Guard presence near the Ritz and they hear gunshots all night long. He has limited access to the internet through the hotel. He said this is a soul edifying experience.

I hope you don't mind, Concerned, but I shared your post with another forum. I had given them the link to your post, but they were directed to the sign up page. I think it is great that the doctors, nurses and pharmacists are there. Infectious disease if looking like a big possibility with the conditions in NO.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 11:53 AM
I hope you don't mind, Concerned, but I shared your post with another forum. I had given them the link to your post, but they were directed to the sign up page. I think it is great that the doctors, nurses and pharmacists are there. Infectious disease if looking like a big possibility with the conditions in NO.

Please do pass it around. He also asks in his email for suture packs, sterile gloves and stethoscopes if these supplies could get to them somehow. He also mentioned that the healthcare workers there all took a round of Cipro, they are expecting an outbreak of disease.

kato
09-02-2005, 12:06 PM
Per local news the mayor just announced that Reliant Center can possibly hold up to 19k. He's also going to open up our George R. Brown Cconvention Ctr. which is huge. BUT it will take a little time. He has cancelled all conventions and activities planned for these places at a big financial loss to the city. Humanitarian aid comes 1st he said.

Gov. Perry has also declared TX as a state of emergency.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 12:07 PM
State of TX told that CDC will be dropping a massive amount of medical supplies, drugs, etc. to LA today....no, I don't know what "massive" is, just telling you what we were told.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 12:10 PM
State of TX told that CDC will be dropping a massive amount of medical supplies, drugs, etc. to LA today....no, I don't know what "massive" is, just telling you what we were told.

It sounds like the need is there for sure. The airport field hospital thought they would be handling 250 people an hour but they are handling 850 people an hour.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 12:14 PM
What are the new fires from? Thugs? UGH!! I just tuned in again. I sure hope they aren't doing this to themselves and their "home" and their "people" (those of NO).

Shadow205
09-02-2005, 12:38 PM
There have been shots fired in the downtown area near the Superdome and it seems in the general area of one of the fires. According to the reporter, there was an exchange of gunfire between the police/national guard and a group in a green cadilac. Looking at the scene on TV, it is hard to beleive that this is taking place in an American city. There is going to be blood shed and there will be those who then criticize the action that was taken. It is a no win situation. Innocent people have already died and more will die if this situation is not gotten under control.

kato
09-02-2005, 12:44 PM
Our mayor thinks we may already have app.100,000 evacuees here. That would include other shelters than the dome such as churches and private homes.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 12:49 PM
There have been shots fired in the downtown area near the Superdome and it seems in the general area of one of the fires. According to the reporter, there was an exchange of gunfire between the police/national guard and a group in a green cadilac. Looking at the scene on TV, it is hard to beleive that this is taking place in an American city. There is going to be blood shed and there will be those who then criticize the action that was taken. It is a no win situation. Innocent people have already died and more will die if this situation is not gotten under control. IMO, they gotta do what they gotta do to get control...if that includes some thugs getting in the way, then so be it, IMO. The few are ruining it for the ones who are just trying to get the heck out! I, for one, would not be in judgment for any action needed. They HAVE to. JMO

kato
09-02-2005, 12:51 PM
IMO, they gotta do what they gotta do to get control...if that includes some thugs getting in the way, then so be it, IMO. The few are ruining it for the ones who are just trying to get the heck out! I, for one, would not be in judgment for any action needed. They HAVE to. JMO

I agree. It's gotta start sometime because it will not get any better they longer they wait to restore some kind of order.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 12:52 PM
I agree. It's gotta start sometime because it will not get any better they longer they wait to restore some kind of order.
Probably one less thug (or more) they have to deal with in the facilities that are taking these dislocated people in! IMO

ETA: It's not like they WANT to shoot anyone. It's he!! for them to go through this (nightmares, PTSD), but they will have to, I fear. I also pray for their sanity when they do. Some of these people are nothing more than a rabid animal (the few who are toting guns and looting non-food items, raping, killing, harrassing). Again, IMO

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:03 PM
JMO, but I don't think a lot of this would be happening had they gotten to these people sooner. But, then again, if most of these troublemakers are known for this, they would do it anyway or take the trouble with them. I just feel sad for the people who are just wanting OUT OF THERE!!!

Shadow205
09-02-2005, 01:08 PM
I just heard an estimate of at least 8,000 people still remain in NO that need to be evacuated. They are also estimating approx. 1.7mil. people will be living in shelters for an extended period of time. It will be a long long time before life returns to normal if ever for so many people.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:09 PM
I just heard an estimate of at least 8,000 people still remain in NO that need to be evacuated. They are also estimating approx. 1.7mil. people will be living in shelters for an extended period of time. It will be a long long time before life returns to normal if ever for so many people.Thanks for the info. So sad....these poor people (elderly, children, ill).

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 01:16 PM
They are interviewing a Dr. from Charity Hospital on CNN:

Evidently the generator failed after about a day; there have been multiple deaths at Charity and he said alot more of them are dying right now, today. He was in the hospital about 5 days straight.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:41 PM
They are interviewing a Dr. from Charity Hospital on CNN:

Evidently the generator failed after about a day; there have been multiple deaths at Charity and he said alot more of them are dying right now, today. He was in the hospital about 5 days straight. I wonder if they are trying to evacuate them? A hospital would be a HUGE priority! Those nurses and doctors and miscellaneous personnel that stayed on....they deserve heroic recognition. They were bagging these people, which is VERY tiring, for long periods of time because they had no power to run the ventilators. HEROES!

Dara
09-02-2005, 01:48 PM
I wonder if they are trying to evacuate them? A hospital would be a HUGE priority! Those nurses and doctors and miscellaneous personnel that stayed on....they deserve heroic recognition. They were bagging these people, which is VERY tiring, for long periods of time because they had no power to run the ventilators. HEROES!
Wasn't Charity one of the hospitals that had to stop evacuating due to gunfire? Maybe that's been contained and now they're getting people out. I'll try to find info.

less0305
09-02-2005, 01:55 PM
Wasn't Charity one of the hospitals that had to stop evacuating due to gunfire? Maybe that's been contained and now they're getting people out. I'll try to find info.

I heard a Dr. from Charity being interviewed live about two hours ago and she said helicopters were landing as she spoke and that the most critical and neonatal had been evacuated, but that there were still about 1500 people there to be evacuated...by helicopter this will take a little while. But she said evacuation efforts are running.

Dara
09-02-2005, 01:59 PM
I heard a Dr. from Charity being interviewed live about two hours ago and she said helicopters were landing as she spoke and that the most critical and neonatal had been evacuated, but that there were still about 1500 people there to be evacuated...by helicopter this will take a little while. But she said evacuation efforts are running.
Thank you!

Finally.

Wow, I just found something. Check this out.

Charity is across the street from Tulane University Medical Center, a private facility that has almost completed evacuating more than 1,000 patients and family members, he said.

No such public resources are available for Charity, which has about 250 patients, or University Hospital several blocks away, which has about 110 patients.


That's from a Fox Story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168192,00.html) from this morning. Ok, so a private hospital managed to get people out, but the government couldn't, even with horrific conditions and patients dying. When the excuses start, I want to remember that.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:12 PM
When the excuses start, I want to remember that. Yep, that's the only way things get changed and hopefully lives saved in the future.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 02:27 PM
Just In......A huge oil spill in Venice, La. has just been reported. At the mouth of the Mississippi River.Two million barrel tanks.

Oh one more thing!!!!!!!

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 02:32 PM
Just FYI to show the magnatude of this....we've heard about Houston, San Antonio as major evacuation cities. I've reported Austin and Bryan also had shelters open, but on a much lesser scale. Even lil' ol Waco had 3 open as of yesterday.

Our Region is now officially being impacted: One sub-district that has 117 officers, has been told to put 85 (of 117!) on standby, to be ready to move out for one week. (So only 32 would remain in our district for normal duty, eeks) Another sub-district (111 officers) is to put 25 two-man units(!) on stand-by, for the same thing - one week. They will most likely be deployed to Houston or Dallas. (We've got one more sub-district, but I haven't heard what they're being requested to do.)

Dallas Region - their evacuation centers (at least the "official" ones) are ALREADY FULL, and now we're planning for Dallas' overflow to head to Waco!

Concern already about the medical needs for all these displaced people, not at the primary LA and MS cities - it will impact the health resources of Houston, SA, Austin, Dallas and Waco, etc. for months to come. And then the associated problems - health concerns with children in these school districts. Contagious diseases being spread. And it continues....

Shadow205
09-02-2005, 02:32 PM
Major Air lines are beginning to airlift refugees from N.O. they are going to be taken to an airforce base (Lakland?) and be disbursed from there. Man, there is going to be people strung out all over the country.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:36 PM
I have no idea how they can keep track of who goes where and how people can find each other but I imagine that's not their #1 priority at this time. I wish I could go down there and help them with a database of names but I'm sure that's going on to an extent. I just feel helpless.

Shadow205
09-02-2005, 02:37 PM
Just FYI to show the magnatude of this....we've heard about Houston, San Antonio as major evacuation cities. I've reported Austin and Bryan also had shelters open, but on a much lesser scale. Even lil' ol Waco had 3 open as of yesterday.

Our Region is now officially being impacted: One sub-district that has 117 officers, has been told to put 85 (of 117!) on standby, to be ready to move out for one week. (So only 32 would remain in our district for normal duty, eeks) Another sub-district (111 officers) is to put 25 two-man units(!) on stand-by, for the same thing - one week. They will most likely be deployed to Houston or Dallas. (We've got one more sub-district, but I haven't heard what they're being requested to do.)

Dallas Region - their evacuation centers (at least the "official" ones) are ALREADY FULL, and now we're planning for Dallas' overflow to head to Waco!

Concern already about the medical needs for all these displaced people, not at the primary LA and MS cities - it will impact the health resources of Houston, SA, Austin, Dallas and Waco, etc. for months to come. And then the associated problems - health concerns with children in these school districts. Contagious diseases being spread. And it continues....
This is a scary thought. With the refugees being transported all over the country, if any of them are sick or soon to be sick from the exposure to the elements there in N.O. then this could spread like wildfire. I don't mean to sound cold but maybe the refugees should not be relocated all over the country.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:40 PM
This is a scary thought. With the refugees being transported all over the country, if any of them are sick or soon to be sick from the exposure to the elements there in N.O. then this could spread like wildfire. I don't mean to sound cold but maybe the refugees should not be relocated all over the country.
Dr. Gupta was on last night. Can't remember which program. I was up very late. Anyway, he said he didn't think the infectious disease problem would be that great of an issue, in his opinion. But, I would think it's a major concern.

Shadow205
09-02-2005, 02:47 PM
Dr. Gupta was on last night. Can't remember which program. I was up very late. Anyway, he said he didn't think the infectious disease problem would be that great of an issue, in his opinion. But, I would think it's a major concern.
I think I'll put him and his opinion in the same category as the ones who didn't think the Levy system was a problem that needed fixing.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:48 PM
Patients apparently arriving at the airport from Charity Hosp., military trucks almost to the comm. center and will unload, go pick up more (water, supplies, etc.) and have medical checks.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:49 PM
I think I'll put him and his opinion in the same category as the ones who didn't think the Levy system was a problem that needed fixing.
True! *L*

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 02:53 PM
For those of you who are wondering and disturbed about those who still need rescuing, here is a personal story. I have permission to use his name from his father who works with me.

Darren Weber was a former resident of Lake Charles, LA who now lives in Waco, TX. In the family tradition, he is a volunteer fireman. He was asked by his former LA fire chief to come over and bring his boat. This was on Monday. He took personal vacation leave and finally was able to get into Baton Rouge for staging. They were staying at the Game Warden's headquarters in Baton Rouge. The made it into NO yesterday, after arranging for armed protection on each boat. They finally made it into the area where people were still trapped in their homes and buildings. As they prepared to pass under an overpass, they were fired on by thugs on the bridge. They were extremely lucky that a cop car was nearby and reached the thugs before they killed these volunteers. As a group, these volunteers with the needed private equipment made the decision to turn around and leave. Back in Baton Rouge last night, while on the phone to his mother, shots were fired and could be heard very near the building where they were staying. Lawlessness even as far as Baton Rouge.

Out of control!!!!! Here is the help everyone is demanding and volunteers that are willing to give it. I don't blame them for leaving. Those who are waiting to be rescued can look to a thug as one reason they haven't been helped.

Dara
09-02-2005, 03:17 PM
For those of you who are wondering and disturbed about those who still need rescuing, here is a personal story. I read it. Thank you for sharing. I am glad Darren wasn't hurt.

I am still disturbed. I am still wondering. I still understand why people are "demanding" help.

When rioting, unanticipated rioting, happens, we expect troops will go in and get things under control. We don't expect that people will be left to die and be raped and beaten! Do you seriously not understand why they're "demanding" help? Volunteers shouldn't be endangering their lives. They should have had protection. Looters and criminals are, as you say, "one reason" help isn't getting through. But it's been a bad situation for a long time, and the response wasn't enough. Not near enough.

Even President Bush (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4208986.stm) is finally admitting it. President George Bush has conceded the initial response to Hurricane Katrina was "not acceptable" but has said every effort is being made to save lives.
Yep. Is NOW being made. WAS not acceptable.

less0305
09-02-2005, 03:25 PM
I heard it explained this morning that the Governor of each state MUST request federal troops. The President can't just send troops or people in to "take over" in any state in the union. Our constitution and government system is built on this premise. States run themselves. The federal govt. can't take over a state. The governor of LA did not ask for troops. I heard a reporter continue for nearly five minutes to pin the governor down as to when she actually requested troops and how many she requested. She couldn't answer him. She kept sidestepping the question and he kept pressing. She got flustered and could not answer. That reporter knew she was not going to admit that she didn't ask for national troops until things had deteriorated terribly. Maybe she didn't know what to do. Maybe she thought they could handle things on their own. I don't know. And I know many people are going to say WTF, people are dying...send troops anyway. But that's not how our govt and constitution is set up. If the govt came in and stepped into the state's business whenever they wanted, we wouldn't even have a state system. We may as well not have the government that we have. We would be a dictatorship. I know there is enough blame to go around. But I just wanted to point that out.

Dara
09-02-2005, 03:30 PM
<snipped only for length> Maybe she thought they could handle things on their own. I don't know. And I know many people are going to say WTF, people are dying...send troops anyway. But that's not how our govt and constitution is set up. If the govt came in and stepped into the state's business whenever they wanted, we wouldn't even have a state system. We may as well not have the government that we have. We would be a dictatorship. I know there is enough blame to go around. But I just wanted to point that out.
These are exactly the kinds of specifics I think we need to know. I think troops should have been there. So, why weren't they?

Now, I get that the government may not have the authority to send troops if the governor didn't request them, but we all knew they were needed. So, could the president or someone high up give a nice phone call and say, "Er, you know, we're happy to send you some help." Or even, "Hey, we need to help you out. You're in trouble. You need to request troops." I'm sorry, but when things get to the point they reached 2 days ago, a "Well, you didn't ask" from the White House isn't much consolation.

Mabel
09-02-2005, 03:31 PM
I heard it explained this morning that the Governor of each state MUST request federal troops. The President can't just send troops or people in to "take over" in any state in the union. Our constitution and government system is built on this premise. States run themselves. The federal govt. can't take over a state. The governor of LA did not ask for troops. I heard a reporter continue for nearly five minutes to pin the governor down as to when she actually requested troops and how many she requested. She couldn't answer him. She kept sidestepping the question and he kept pressing. She got flustered and could not answer. That reporter knew she was not going to admit that she didn't ask for national troops until things had deteriorated terribly. Maybe she didn't know what to do. Maybe she thought they could handle things on their own. I don't know. And I know many people are going to say WTF, people are dying...send troops anyway. But that's not how our govt and constitution is set up. If the govt came in and stepped into the state's business whenever they wanted, we wouldn't even have a state system. We may as well not have the government that we have. We would be a dictatorship. I know there is enough blame to go around. But I just wanted to point that out.


I didn't see the interview, but is is possible that the reason the governer wouldn't commit to exactly when she requested troops is because she didn't want to speak against someone higher up?

tybee204
09-02-2005, 03:34 PM
Well that and a large percent of Louisana, Mississipi and Alabama's National Guard are not protecting their homefronts. They are in Iraq. Im still confused why the Guard is being used in Iraq but that is another topic.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 03:40 PM
I heard it explained this morning that the Governor of each state MUST request federal troops. The President can't just send troops or people in to "take over" in any state in the union. Our constitution and government system is built on this premise. States run themselves. The federal govt. can't take over a state. The governor of LA did not ask for troops. I heard a reporter continue for nearly five minutes to pin the governor down as to when she actually requested troops and how many she requested. She couldn't answer him. She kept sidestepping the question and he kept pressing. She got flustered and could not answer. That reporter knew she was not going to admit that she didn't ask for national troops until things had deteriorated terribly. Maybe she didn't know what to do. Maybe she thought they could handle things on their own. I don't know. And I know many people are going to say WTF, people are dying...send troops anyway. But that's not how our govt and constitution is set up. If the govt came in and stepped into the state's business whenever they wanted, we wouldn't even have a state system. We may as well not have the government that we have. We would be a dictatorship. I know there is enough blame to go around. But I just wanted to point that out.

I saw that interview as well. I believe I said early on that she wasn't acting like herself, she was pretty upset before the storm hit. I believe her advisors were saying that local National Guard would reinforce police....too little and not in a timely fashion. She didn't get the picture and should have ordered national troops immediately. No question the power was going to go out.....it always does 100% of the time. No question that many, many residents stayed and with the heat and no power you would have civil unrest in a big city.Poor planning....remember on Tuesday a.m. Mayor Nagin saying send in the troops?

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 03:43 PM
Im still confused why the Guard is being used in Iraq but that is another topic.
Why are you confused? They've always been basically reserve type military units and can be called up for foreign wars or to protect our homeland. They go wherever they're needed. My son was formerly in the Army National Guard but is now in the USAF reserves.

less0305
09-02-2005, 03:55 PM
I saw that interview as well. I believe I said early on that she wasn't acting like herself, she was pretty upset before the storm hit. I believe her advisors were saying that local National Guard would reinforce police....too little and not in a timely fashion. She didn't get the picture and should have ordered national troops immediately. No question the power was going to go out.....it always does 100% of the time. No question that many, many residents stayed and with the heat and no power you would have civil unrest in a big city.Poor planning....remember on Tuesday a.m. Mayor Nagin saying send in the troops?

Exactly....I don't think she even realized what the scope was going to be until it was too late. I honestly think she thought the state of LA would handle this. I think she grossly misjudged and under-calculated the devastation...and then became shell shocked as to what to do next. I don't live there, but that was my impression.

tybee204
09-02-2005, 03:57 PM
National Guard: Enough GIs for Storm Duty
By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON -- Some 6,000 National Guard personnel in Louisiana and Mississippi who would be available to help deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina are in Iraq, highlighting the changing role of America's part-time soldiers.

"The juxtaposition of the mission to Iraq and the response to Katrina really demonstrates the new and changing character of the National Guard," Daniel Goure, a military analyst at the private Lexington Institute, said Monday.


The war has forced the Guard into becoming an operational force, a far cry from its historic role as a strategic reserve primarily available to governors for disasters and other duties in their home states.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-katrina-national-guard,1,6488472.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

less0305
09-02-2005, 03:57 PM
I didn't see the interview, but is is possible that the reason the governer wouldn't commit to exactly when she requested troops is because she didn't want to speak against someone higher up?
Nope...laying blame higher up would have been a lot easier than squirming IF she could have said, I asked for 20,000 troops to be sent on Tuesday at noon. She even so much as went on to answer one question with "I don't even know what day today is." Ask the people at the convention center - they'll tell you what day it is - going into the 5th day without food and water.

Dara
09-02-2005, 03:58 PM
Did you all just see the sheriff from (Loudon County?) Virginia who had a team on the road with MREs, tents, etc, who was told to turn around and leave by someone in the command center, that LA was turning everyone away because they had no place to house them? The sheriff said he told them they were self-sufficient but were told to go back.

tybee204
09-02-2005, 03:59 PM
Send them to Mississippi. They are letting help in.

Mabel
09-02-2005, 04:02 PM
Did you all just see the sheriff from (Loudon County?) Virginia who had a team on the road with MREs, tents, etc, who was told to turn around and leave by someone in the command center, that LA was turning everyone away because they had no place to house them? The sheriff said he told them they were self-sufficient but were told to go back.

Interesting. The trucking company my husband works for sent two trailer loads of bottled water down on Monday. I haven't heard yet how (or if) it was accepted.

less0305
09-02-2005, 04:06 PM
Did you all just see the sheriff from (Loudon County?) Virginia who had a team on the road with MREs, tents, etc, who was told to turn around and leave by someone in the command center, that LA was turning everyone away because they had no place to house them? The sheriff said he told them they were self-sufficient but were told to go back.

I hope they do go back and stop in other areas.... The focus in NO is getting everyone OUT of N.O. The military brought something like 6 million MREs for those evacuees who will be put on buses and sent out of NO in the very near future. I think the military brought enough for what is left in NO. Those supplies might well be needed now in areas where people are not being sent out, but rather coming back in to clean up and restore. N.O. is a long way from that right now. People with supplies might be better off taking them to the rescue cities and sites who have been inundated with the evacuees.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 04:06 PM
Did you all just see the sheriff from (Loudon County?) Virginia who had a team on the road with MREs, tents, etc, who was told to turn around and leave by someone in the command center, that LA was turning everyone away because they had no place to house them? The sheriff said he told them they were self-sufficient but were told to go back.

I walked in at the end and couldn't figure out what had been said but was getting the impression that it was something like this. This is really poor leadership.

Dark Knight
09-02-2005, 04:08 PM
I heard it explained this morning that the Governor of each state MUST request federal troops. The President can't just send troops or people in to "take over" in any state in the union. Our constitution and government system is built on this premise. States run themselves. The federal govt. can't take over a state. The governor of LA did not ask for troops. I heard a reporter continue for nearly five minutes to pin the governor down as to when she actually requested troops and how many she requested. She couldn't answer him. She kept sidestepping the question and he kept pressing. She got flustered and could not answer. That reporter knew she was not going to admit that she didn't ask for national troops until things had deteriorated terribly. Maybe she didn't know what to do. Maybe she thought they could handle things on their own. I don't know. And I know many people are going to say WTF, people are dying...send troops anyway. But that's not how our govt and constitution is set up. If the govt came in and stepped into the state's business whenever they wanted, we wouldn't even have a state system. We may as well not have the government that we have. We would be a dictatorship. I know there is enough blame to go around. But I just wanted to point that out.
It's my understanding that the President can activate National Guard troops for emergencies, as well as Governors.

Dara
09-02-2005, 04:09 PM
I hope they do go back and stop in other areas.... The focus in NO is getting everyone OUT of N.O. The military brought something like 6 million MREs for those evacuees who will be put on buses and sent out of NO in the very near future. I think the military brought enough for what is left in NO. Those supplies might well be needed now in areas where people are not being sent out, but rather coming back in to clean up and restore. N.O. is a long way from that right now. People with supplies might be better off taking them to the rescue cities and sites who have been inundated with the evacuees. I'm under the impression that they were just going to Louisiana. I don't know if they were heading specifically to NO. The part I forgot to report on (multi-tasking) is that the sheriff was called to go there. He said the person he spoke to (I didn't get who called him, but it was an official) was panicked. So, they didn't just decide to go there; they were requested. That was a pretty important piece of the story I left out (sorry).

And I don't know when this happened. We're all seeing a lot of relief today. Yesterday? Not so much.

less0305
09-02-2005, 04:12 PM
Dara...

Thanks for the update. I don't know, I'm sure their help will much appreciated somewhere. They are a blessing to be had.

less0305
09-02-2005, 04:14 PM
It's my understanding that the President can activate National Guard troops for emergencies, as well as Governors.


And that could well be the case.....I just didn't understand that from the interview I heard this morning. Sorry.

Mabel
09-02-2005, 04:16 PM
Wow, I just heard the interview with the mayor of NO for the first time. He's not kidding when he says he's pi$$ed. Not long afterwards he met with the President. It's surprising that he didn't :slap: him.

less0305
09-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Wow, I just heard the interview with the mayor of NO for the first time. He's not kidding when he says he's pi$$ed. Not long afterwards he met with the President. It's surprising that he didn't :slap: him.

Mabel....I heard the unedited version this morning live. No bleeping out of the bad words. I think CNN may have some fines to pay!

Dara
09-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Dara...

Thanks for the update. I don't know, I'm sure their help will much appreciated somewhere. They are a blessing to be had.
You're welcome. I do hope they get to help out. It's got to be hard for people who want to help but couldn't for whatever reason.

I'm not much of an updater, but I'm lucky enough to be home and have a bunch of TVs on. Problem is, I go from room to room and miss a lot. And when I am on the phone, I pace. I can't ever seem to sit and talk on the phone. Strange, I kow.

Wow, they're air some of a radio address Mayor Nagin gave last night coming up. From the little I heard, he's angry. They were going to air it, then Wolf Blitzer said they would have it later. I think they're cleaning it up. He was cursing in the part I heard.

kgeaux
09-02-2005, 04:19 PM
They are interviewing a Dr. from Charity Hospital on CNN:

Evidently the generator failed after about a day; there have been multiple deaths at Charity and he said alot more of them are dying right now, today. He was in the hospital about 5 days straight.


My friend's uncle is in Charity. He was injured in an accident Saturday and they took him there because of the excellent trauma team. She cannot get any news of him.

Mabel
09-02-2005, 04:20 PM
Mabel....I heard the unedited version this morning live. No bleeping out of the bad words. I think CNN may have some fines to pay!

The version I heard sounded as if some words had been substituted, unless he actually did say "dagnab it". There was also some bleeping.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 04:24 PM
I reported this back on Wednesday, per a memo received here, that if volunteers, supplies, etc were not approved through the State of LA Operations, they would be turned around. Sounds like much of the problem is at the state level of government; between turning around assistance, Governor not able to deal with this, etc.

Our Region's #'s put on stand-by has been finalized, 90 officers (less than first estimated about 2 hrs ago.) But they're already named and ready to roll out of Region. Doesn't take long once people ask for help.

Dara
09-02-2005, 04:51 PM
Here's a description (http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2005/09/02/ap/headlines/d8cc9vlge.txt)of the mayor's address:

"Get off your asses and let's do something," the mayor told WWL-AM Thursday night in a rambling interview in which he cursed, yelled and ultimately burst into tears. At one point he said: "Excuse my French _ everybody in America _ but I am pissed."

The article has a lot of other info but I wanted to share the excerpt since we've been talking about the Nagin's address.

Dara
09-02-2005, 04:54 PM
I reported this back on Wednesday, per a memo received here, that if volunteers, supplies, etc were not approved through the State of LA Operations, they would be turned around. Sounds like much of the problem is at the state level of government; between turning around assistance, Governor not able to deal with this, etc. So, you're ok now with "post-analysis" and what you've been calling finger-pointing?

Just checking. ;)

Now that help is arriving, I think we can expect some attempts at revisionist history and I think many of us will forget in time just how bad it really was, and truly how events unfolded. I think it's important to talk it through as it happens. It helps us remember. IMO.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 05:16 PM
Here's a description (http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2005/09/02/ap/headlines/d8cc9vlge.txt)of the mayor's address:


The article has a lot of other info but I wanted to share the excerpt since we've been talking about the Nagin's address.
Dara, I heard from a co-worker who had been watching the news here (I missed it), that a general stepped off a helicopter and met with the mayor. The general cursed worse than the mayor, but the mayor said something about thank goodness help had arrived in the form of someone who could take command.

True or not? Anyone heard or seen this?

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 05:22 PM
So, you're ok now with "post-analysis" and what you've been calling finger-pointing?

Just checking. ;)

Now that help is arriving, I think we can expect some attempts at revisionist history and I think many of us will forget in time just how bad it really was, and truly how events unfolded. I think it's important to talk it through as it happens. It helps us remember. IMO.

Dara, at first I added a sentence that said, "This may be considered finger-pointing, LOL" And then I took it out, as I was afraid it would start snide comments. I knew I was at risk for stating what I did about the State level. I'm trying hard to remain neutral, I really am. I've been trying to post legitimate information, maybe y'all don't care about it. Then I put in my opinion, and I guess I'm going to be eating my words.

I have agreed with you a lot, and some of your articles, etc. have been both interesting and informative. I just hate throwing a lot of blame around in the middle of a crisis, when we don't have all the facts, etc. I can fling with the best of them later!

Y'all carry on...

GonzoReiter
09-02-2005, 05:28 PM
Live Blog, Web Cam, Chat from Bourbon Street (http://mgno.com/)

SieSie
09-02-2005, 05:37 PM
Just on FOX News, reported that 50-100 firefighters, families and children are stuck in the BellSouth building - unable to leave because they are being fired on by snipers.

I just don't understand what they have to gain by not allowing others to be rescued. The looting mentality was bad enough, but I just don't comprehend this.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 05:38 PM
I just don't understand what they have to gain by not allowing others to be rescued. The looting mentality was bad enough, but I just don't comprehend this.

These aren't people desparate for assistance or evacuation, are they?

Dara
09-02-2005, 05:41 PM
Dara, at first I added a sentence that said, "This may be considered finger-pointing, LOL" And then I took it out, as I was afraid it would start snide comments. I knew I was at risk for stating what I did about the State level. I'm trying hard to remain neutral, I really am. I've been trying to post legitimate information, maybe y'all don't care about it. Then I put in my opinion, and I guess I'm going to be eating my words. I definitely don't want to make you eat your words and I don't want either of us to be snide. I used the winky icon hoping you'd get that I was mostly trying to point out that you were doing what most of us have been. It's great that you're trying to be neutral. I think there's the misconception that those who are saying there are big problems here are somehow faulting specific people (or faulting them without reason). I think the words "bashing" and "fingerpointing" are overused and misused in general to trivialize and/or discredit people's posts (that is not directed at you in specific).

I will say I think the President should have stepped in earlier and that unfortunately I am not surprised. I have big concerns about Michael Brown of FEMA. In both cases, I feel there is enough documentation to justify my opinion (which is just my opinion). I have agreed with you a lot, and some of your articles, etc. have been both interesting and informative. I just hate throwing a lot of blame around in the middle of a crisis, when we don't have all the facts, etc. I can fling with the best of them later! Thank you for the nice words. I can say a hearty "backatcha." I understand. But, really, I think most of us have just been acknowledging the problem without blaming anyone specifically. I haven't known who to blame (except as stated above), but I know there are people who screwed up. I don't see myself as fllinging blame. But I do think there will be adjustments to the history of this crisis and I want to be able to go back and say, "Hey, wait a second, the mayor said they needed troops on Tuesday morning (thanks to whoever posted that).

You say you are trying to be neutral. I think I'm pretty neutral, too. My opinions are formed by what I have seen and heard and read. If I think Bush (for example) screwed up, it's not because I am not neutral; it's because based on what I know I think he screwed up. Now, if I weren't neutral or maybe objective, I'd be agreeing with those criticizing his comments that the response was "unacceptable." He's catching heat for that, with some saying he's disrespecting those who did go in and help. I don't think he meant that. I think he meant what has happened so far isn't enough, and it wasn't done right. I hope he's big enough to see his own culpalbility, and he may even mean that as well. He didn't single anyone out, and I can't stand the man, but I do NOT think he would criticize those who have tried to go in and save lives.

Sorry that's so long.

Dara
09-02-2005, 05:44 PM
Dara, I heard from a co-worker who had been watching the news here (I missed it), that a general stepped off a helicopter and met with the mayor. The general cursed worse than the mayor, but the mayor said something about thank goodness help had arrived in the form of someone who could take command.

True or not? Anyone heard or seen this?
I haven't heard it. I'm going to see if I can find a reference.

Just to clarify: I don't have a problem with anyone cursing. I would. I am. And I'm not there. I find the mayor's emotion and frustration to be appropriate. When I read that he broke down in tears, I wanted to share that, because he was the single consistent voice that has spoken for the victims and asked for what they needed, and imo he went largely unheard.

SieSie
09-02-2005, 05:48 PM
These aren't people desparate for assistance or evacuation, are they?

DeputyDawg - I understand that they're desperate for assistance and wanting to evacuate, I never questioned that. I'm sure the anger and frustration is very high.... I don't, however, understand why someone who is desperate for help would be shooting at other people who also want help. They aren't able to go help rescue people who want rescued if they are afraid for their lives.

tipper
09-02-2005, 05:53 PM
Don't know if this has already been posted.


Foreign aid pours in to help Katrina victims
Fri Sep 2, 2005 3:22 PM ET
Printer Friendly (javascript:commonPopup('/PrinterFriendlyPopup.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=uri%3a2005-09-02T192131Z_01_N02552447_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-FOREIGN.XML', 540, 525, 1, 'printerPopup')) | Email Article (javascript:commonPopup('/EmailPopup.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=uri%3a2005-09-02T192131Z_01_N02552447_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-FOREIGN.XML&link=investing/FinanceArticle.aspx', 540, 600, 1, 'emailPopup')) | Reprints (javascript:commonPopup('http://www.icopyright.com/3.5398?icx_id=uri%3a2005-09-02T192131Z_01_N02552447_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-FOREIGN.XML', 580, 760, 1, 'purchasePopup')) | RSShttp://i.today.reuters.com/news/images/iconRSS.gif (http://today.reuters.com/rss/default.aspx)
http://i.today.reuters.com/investing/images/clear.gif By Sue Pleming

WASHINGTON, Sept 2 (Reuters) - The United States has not actively sought foreign aid following Hurricane Katrina but dozens of countries lined up on Friday to help with rescue efforts, from hefty cash donations to tents and helicopters.

The State Department said more than 40 governments and international organizations had made generous offers and the list was growing by the hour after Katrina devastated New Orleans and other parts of the U.S. Gulf Coast, killing hundreds and possibly thousands of people.

"We are not formally requesting assistance but anything that can materially benefit folks in need is something that we will accept," said a State Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Countries were very generous after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States but officials said they could not remember this kind of outpouring of sympathy and aid for any other natural disaster on U.S. soil.

Singapore sent helicopters, Israel offered medical teams within 24 hours and European oil producers responded to a formal U.S. request to release gasoline stocks.

Help was not limited to allies and opponents of U.S. policy such as Cuba and Venezuela put aside their political differences to join the chorus of nations offering help.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered to send cheap fuel but the State Department said a decision had not been made on whether to accept this offer.

Poor nations that usually turn to the United States for assistance, such as Honduras, offered to become donors as did Sri Lanka and Indonesia, countries that benefited from U.S. assistance after last year's Indian Ocean tsunami.
[...]

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 05:57 PM
I have goosebumps!! Maybe we can even make new friends or at least agree to disagree with some countries and be civil! Thanks! Don't know if this has already been posted.


Foreign aid pours in to help Katrina victims
Fri Sep 2, 2005 3:22 PM ET
Printer Friendly (javascript:commonPopup('/PrinterFriendlyPopup.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=uri%3a2005-09-02T192131Z_01_N02552447_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-FOREIGN.XML', 540, 525, 1, 'printerPopup')) | Email Article (javascript:commonPopup('/EmailPopup.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=uri%3a2005-09-02T192131Z_01_N02552447_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-FOREIGN.XML&link=investing/FinanceArticle.aspx', 540, 600, 1, 'emailPopup')) | Reprints (javascript:commonPopup('http://www.icopyright.com/3.5398?icx_id=uri%3a2005-09-02T192131Z_01_N02552447_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-FOREIGN.XML', 580, 760, 1, 'purchasePopup')) | RSShttp://i.today.reuters.com/news/images/iconRSS.gif (http://today.reuters.com/rss/default.aspx)
http://i.today.reuters.com/investing/images/clear.gif By Sue Pleming

WASHINGTON, Sept 2 (Reuters) - The United States has not actively sought foreign aid following Hurricane Katrina but dozens of countries lined up on Friday to help with rescue efforts, from hefty cash donations to tents and helicopters.

The State Department said more than 40 governments and international organizations had made generous offers and the list was growing by the hour after Katrina devastated New Orleans and other parts of the U.S. Gulf Coast, killing hundreds and possibly thousands of people.

"We are not formally requesting assistance but anything that can materially benefit folks in need is something that we will accept," said a State Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Countries were very generous after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States but officials said they could not remember this kind of outpouring of sympathy and aid for any other natural disaster on U.S. soil.

Singapore sent helicopters, Israel offered medical teams within 24 hours and European oil producers responded to a formal U.S. request to release gasoline stocks.

Help was not limited to allies and opponents of U.S. policy such as Cuba and Venezuela put aside their political differences to join the chorus of nations offering help.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered to send cheap fuel but the State Department said a decision had not been made on whether to accept this offer.

Poor nations that usually turn to the United States for assistance, such as Honduras, offered to become donors as did Sri Lanka and Indonesia, countries that benefited from U.S. assistance after last year's Indian Ocean tsunami.
[...]

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 05:58 PM
I will say I think the President should have stepped in earlier and that unfortunately I am not surprised. I have big concerns about Michael Brown of FEMA. In both cases, I feel there is enough documentation to justify my opinion (which is just my opinion). Thank you for the nice words. I can say a hearty "backatcha." I understand. But, really, I think most of us have just been acknowledging the problem without blaming anyone specifically. I haven't known who to blame (except as stated above), but I know there are people who screwed up. I don't see myself as fllinging blame. But I do think there will be adjustments to the history of this crisis and I want to be able to go back and say, "Hey, wait a second, the mayor said they needed troops on Tuesday morning (thanks to whoever posted that).

You say you are trying to be neutral. I think I'm pretty neutral, too. My opinions are formed by what I have seen and heard and read. If I think Bush (for example) screwed up, it's not because I am not neutral; it's because based on what I know I think he screwed up. Now, if I weren't neutral or maybe objective, I'd be agreeing with those criticizing his comments that the response was "unacceptable." He's catching heat for that, with some saying he's disrespecting those who did go in and help. I don't think he meant that. I think he meant what has happened so far isn't enough, and it wasn't done right. I hope he's big enough to see his own culpalbility, and he may even mean that as well. He didn't single anyone out, and I can't stand the man, but I do NOT think he would criticize those who have tried to go in and save lives.



:blowkiss:

Fair enough. I guess I figure there will be PLENTY of blame to go around, from the local city level on up to Bush and his Admin. (For example, I don't think the Mayor and his Admin did such a swell job...and they live there! They should know much more of the ins and outs of the City's resources, transportation sources/manpower, utilities, hospital capacities - and lack thereof - than feds sitting/planning in D.C. And then on the other side of that, I feel sorry for the Mayor and his staff, as I'm sure they've asked for years for improvements, more resources, etc. and of course, there's always the lack of funds. So, he's stuck. And I don't know about NO itself, but in many cities, the Mayor is basically a figure head with not a lot of power. Who's the City Manager? And, I could go on and on up the ladder to FEMA, etc. and Bush.) But, I don't know, really, who did/didn't do what and when, so I am interested to see/hear all about it when things mellow over the course of some time.

I understand we've all got opinions and I'm sorry if I got frustrated earlier in the day. I'm just as frustrated as y'all, probably.

I'll probably write more later, but gotta go for now.

Thanks

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 06:02 PM
Fox is announcing something about firefighters and their families being held hostage. Did anybody hear what this was about? Sorry I just didn't get what they were talking about or where.

shopper
09-02-2005, 06:03 PM
I have a question. WTH are there still thousands outside the Superdome on that ramp? This is the second full day in a row (or has it been longer now) that they've been sitting there. Where are the buses, aren't some supposed to be on the way? Have all the people at the convention center been bussed out? I'm confused now, sorry.

Dara
09-02-2005, 06:04 PM
:blowkiss:

Fair enough. I guess I figure there will be PLENTY of blame to go around, from the local city level on up to Bush and his Admin. (For example, I don't think the Mayor and his Admin did such a swell job...and they live there! They should know much more of the ins and outs of the City's resources, transportation sources/manpower, utilities, hospital capacities - and lack thereof - than feds sitting/planning in D.C. And then on the other side of that, I feel sorry for the Mayor and his staff, as I'm sure they've asked for years for improvements, more resources, etc. and of course, there's always the lack of funds. So, he's stuck. And I don't know about NO itself, but in many cities, the Mayor is basically a figure head with not a lot of power. Who's the City Manager? And, I could go on and on up the ladder to FEMA, etc. and Bush.) But, I don't know, really, who did/didn't do what and when, so I am interested to see/hear all about it when things mellow over the course of some time.

I understand we've all got opinions and I'm sorry if I got frustrated earlier in the day. I'm just as frustrated as y'all, probably.

I'll probably write more later, but gotta go for now.

Thanks
:blowkiss:

Hey, I disagree with you fairly often, but every time I do, I seriously consider your point of view because I respect you. I learn from you. I really hope as more information comes out, we can continue to discuss this. For example, I'm reacting emotionally to the mayor because of his pleas, but you bring in some points I haven't given much thought to about him and his office.

Have a good evening!

Dara
09-02-2005, 06:05 PM
Fox is announcing something about firefighters and their families being held hostage. Did anybody hear what this was about? Sorry I just didn't get what they were talking about or where.
Oh, no!

I still can't find out what happened to the prison guard and his family who were held hostage in one of the prisons (I think this happened Tuesday). Does anyone have an update on them?

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 06:07 PM
St Bernard Parish Snipers outside the building of the firefighters.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 06:25 PM
I haven't heard it. I'm going to see if I can find a reference.

Just to clarify: I don't have a problem with anyone cursing. I would. I am. And I'm not there. I find the mayor's emotion and frustration to be appropriate. When I read that he broke down in tears, I wanted to share that, because he was the single consistent voice that has spoken for the victims and asked for what they needed, and imo he went largely unheard.

It was me that posted about Mayor Nagin. I believe he was truly aware early on and so stated. The rest of the politicos were doing their normal, deny the problem and things will work out. I was also a doomsayer early on if anyone remembers.

I have been cursing like the devil....words I haven't used in years. I also have been crying a lot. I have had giant arguments with my daughter because she was taking the middle road and then the next day everything we talked about happened.It is the frustration when no one listens. Now we will get the problems solved throughout the south....people are listening.

Dara
09-02-2005, 06:39 PM
It was me that posted about Mayor Nagin. I believe he was truly aware early on and so stated. The rest of the politicos were doing their normal, deny the problem and things will work out. I was also a doomsayer early on if anyone remembers.

I have been cursing like the devil....words I haven't used in years. I also have been crying a lot. I have had giant arguments with my daughter because she was taking the middle road and then the next day everything we talked about happened.It is the frustration when no one listens. Now we will get the problems solved throughout the south....people are listening.
I remember!

I was out earlier and the radio station was doing their daily theme lunch hour. So, first I heard "Yellow Moon" by the Neville Brothers, then "Home" by Marc Broussard, and then I realized they were doing a tribute to music from LA artists. And it just hit me and I sat in my car and cried. I wasn't crying about the songs or anything in specific. Just the whole thing.

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 06:46 PM
More than 7,600 prisoners were transported out of the New Orleans (search) area to state prisons and local jails, signaling the start of major changes for the criminal justice system in Louisiana.

The district attorney's office in New Orleans is near the jail where thousands of inmates were still being evacuated Thursday
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168320,00.html

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 06:56 PM
More than 7,600 prisoners were transported out of the New Orleans (search) area to state prisons and local jails, signaling the start of major changes for the criminal justice system in Louisiana.

The district attorney's office in New Orleans is near the jail where thousands of inmates were still being evacuated Thursday
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168320,00.html

David Dugas was a childhood friend of mine. He is pretty good on the judicial level. Maybe they should send them all to Angola.....the hell on earth prison.

As an aside these traveling looters with automatics on a truck that caused NOPD to turn in their badges should be shot on sight.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 08:35 PM
DeputyDawg - I understand that they're desperate for assistance and wanting to evacuate, I never questioned that. I'm sure the anger and frustration is very high.... I don't, however, understand why someone who is desperate for help would be shooting at other people who also want help. They aren't able to go help rescue people who want rescued if they are afraid for their lives.


Oh SieSie, I think maybe you took my comment the wrong way...I was agreeing with you. If you took it the other (sarcastic) way, I am sorry! I haven't been very good at expressing myself here today :slap:

No, I meant it that those who have the time, capability and means to be snipers and shooting at rescue workers and aid, REALLY do not seem to be desperate for aid. Obviously the copters are around/above them, and rather than flagging them down begging for a drop of water supply or food, they're making a conscious choice of making them retreat, so others who are law-abiding, desperate citizens can't get help.

Sorry if I was unclear earlier...DD

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 08:47 PM
:blowkiss:

Hey, I disagree with you fairly often, but every time I do, I seriously consider your point of view because I respect you. I learn from you. I really hope as more information comes out, we can continue to discuss this. For example, I'm reacting emotionally to the mayor because of his pleas, but you bring in some points I haven't given much thought to about him and his office.

Have a good evening!

Fairly often? Dang, say it ain't so! LOL

I share the same sentiments with you, as above.

ETA: For example, you comment about the disparity between the private hospital and the county-run hospital. OMG, I'm TRYING to figure out WHY there would be such a disparity as to why one can be evacuated so much more efficiently than the other...but unless it's sheer number of patients and staff, or patient/staff ratios, I don't know how it could be justified. Anyone know? Is one considerably larger than the other?

Details
09-02-2005, 09:15 PM
I'm thinking those snipers don't want rescue or assistance. Sounds like it's the gangs, and they think they've got a pretty nice situation right now - they can steal, murder, rape, do whatever they want - the city is theirs. Gangs always look at their territories as their property, they figure now they can have it without the competition from the government. I really think they like this. That's why they fire on rescuers and anyone governmental - to keep them out.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 09:33 PM
I'm thinking those snipers don't want rescue or assistance. Sounds like it's the gangs, and they think they've got a pretty nice situation right now - they can steal, murder, rape, do whatever they want - the city is theirs. Gangs always look at their territories as their property, they figure now they can have it without the competition from the government. I really think they like this. That's why they fire on rescuers and anyone governmental - to keep them out.

So true, so true...

Dara
09-02-2005, 10:21 PM
Ted Koppel asked Michael Brown some tough questions. Anyone see it? I found video of it here (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Nightline-Fema.mov). Wow.

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 10:23 PM
the story being told on Greta on Fox right now is describing how a man from NO took a school bus, picked up 80 people and they chipped in to pay for gas and drove to Houston. This guy is a hero. A man taking responsibility. How many school buses are sitting there that can be used to move these people?

SieSie
09-02-2005, 10:29 PM
Oh SieSie, I think maybe you took my comment the wrong way...I was agreeing with you. If you took it the other (sarcastic) way, I am sorry! I haven't been very good at expressing myself here today :slap:

No, I meant it that those who have the time, capability and means to be snipers and shooting at rescue workers and aid, REALLY do not seem to be desperate for aid. Obviously the copters are around/above them, and rather than flagging them down begging for a drop of water supply or food, they're making a conscious choice of making them retreat, so others who are law-abiding, desperate citizens can't get help.

Sorry if I was unclear earlier...DD

:blowkiss: Oh DD, I'm so sorry I misunderstood your reply - I gotcha now! (We need a winking smiley) Thanks for the PM, too! Take care.

Dara
09-02-2005, 10:30 PM
Fairly often? Dang, say it ain't so! LOL

I share the same sentiments with you, as above.

ETA: For example, you comment about the disparity between the private hospital and the county-run hospital. OMG, I'm TRYING to figure out WHY there would be such a disparity as to why one can be evacuated so much more efficiently than the other...but unless it's sheer number of patients and staff, or patient/staff ratios, I don't know how it could be justified. Anyone know? Is one considerably larger than the other?
Sanjay Gupta is updating on that. He said they watched from Charity Hospital as non-essential personnel were evacuated from Tulane (which was fully evacuated yesterday). At that time, there were patients being manually ventilated (meaning they should have been on ventilators, but there wasn't power...it's a poor substitute from what I understand, since a person has to actively squeeze a bag). When Sanjay left, this afternoon, there still over 200 patients at Charity this afternoon. He says he can't imagine why non-essential personnel got taken away from Tulane while critical patients were left at Charity.

They showed video. It's terrible. And Michael Brown told us how well the hospital evacuations were going.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 10:32 PM
the story being told on Greta on Fox right now is describing how a man from NO took a school bus, picked up 80 people and they chipped in to pay for gas and drove to Houston. This guy is a hero. A man taking responsibility. How many school buses are sitting there that can be used to move these people?

I haven't seen the news yet, oh my...how ingenious! ("took" a bus - legally or not?!LOL) Re school buses - here in TX, the State's School Bus Administrator has been coordinating donations of buses and school bus drivers since Wednesday...that's a different service than I work, so I don't have any idea how many they've coordinated already, but I do know from cruising through the front lobby, that they're getting a lot of calls, which is a good sign. I would bet that many we've seen on TV the last 2 days are Texas buses. But at this point, yeah, start using some available LA buses.

About time for me to get off-line and go watch the news!

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 10:38 PM
Sanjay Gupta is updating on that. He said they watched from Charity Hospital as non-essential personnel were evacuated from Tulane (which was fully evacuated yesterday). At that time, there were patients being manually ventilated (meaning they should have been on ventilators, but there wasn't power...it's a poor substitute from what I understand, since a person has to actively squeeze a bag). When Sanjay left, this afternoon, there still over 200 patients at Charity this afternoon. He says he can't imagine why non-essential personnel got taken away from Tulane while critical patients were left at Charity.

They showed video. It's terrible. And Michael Brown told us how well the hospital evacuations were going.


Oh boy. :waitasec:

kgeaux
09-02-2005, 11:03 PM
the story being told on Greta on Fox right now is describing how a man from NO took a school bus, picked up 80 people and they chipped in to pay for gas and drove to Houston. This guy is a hero. A man taking responsibility. How many school buses are sitting there that can be used to move these people?


This was a GREAT story. For those of you who missed it: The doors to the offices were blown open, he walked in, picked up the keys and drove the bus off the property. He had never driven a bus before! He'd stop and pick up people as he saw them in need, he had a bus full by the time he drove up to the AstroDome! They were an "unauthorized" bus load of people, so they didn't get into the AstroDome right away, but the Red Cross finally got them all in. The bus is parked out on the lot, having served its noble purpose. Greta asked him if he saw any of those he rescued in the dome and what did he say when he saw them? He said, "I tell them I love them." What a great story about the human spirit!

Dara
09-02-2005, 11:08 PM
Bill O'Reilly talking to someone who is supervising medic services in NOLA. He says all the patients are finally out of Charity Hospital (and I believe all hospitals), but there are employees barricaded on an upper floor, hiding from drug-seekers who are shooting, and starting IVs on each other to stay alive. They need troops at Memorial Hospital, too.

Casshew
09-02-2005, 11:08 PM
Thats a great story kgeaux! something to smile about

Casshew
09-02-2005, 11:40 PM
Grrrrr.. pictures like this drive me nuts!

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/vert.aid.distro.ap.jpg

These people in one long line up - with soldiers standing around... why not have 10 lines ++ ?

rollerbladr123
09-03-2005, 12:02 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc_1

Murder and mayhem in New Orleans' miserable shelter
By Mark Egan 5 minutes ago



Quote 1 NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - With the rotors of President Bush's helicopter sounding overhead, New Orleans' poor and downtrodden recounted tales of murder, rape, death threats and near starvation since Hurricane Katrina wrecked this city.

More at link....

Shadow205
09-03-2005, 12:07 AM
Did anyone else hear the story tonight on FOX about the nursing home? They found everyone dead. They said there were 80 some patients and all were dead. I have searched for a link to the story but havn't found anything.

Dara
09-03-2005, 12:08 AM
Did anyone else hear the story tonight on FOX about the nursing home? They found everyone dead. They said there were 80 some patients and all were dead. I have searched for a link to the story but havn't found anything.
I heard it. On Larry King Live. They said it's believed they all drowned in the first storm surge. Did they say 80 patients?

Shadow205
09-03-2005, 12:11 AM
I heard it. On Larry King Live. They said it's believed they all drowned in the first storm surge. Did they say 80 patients?
That is what I heard Dara. Sad.

tybee204
09-03-2005, 12:15 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc_1

Murder and mayhem in New Orleans' miserable shelter
By Mark Egan 5 minutes ago



Quote 1 NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - With the rotors of President Bush's helicopter sounding overhead, New Orleans' poor and downtrodden recounted tales of murder, rape, death threats and near starvation since Hurricane Katrina wrecked this city.

More at link....

That article is totally devastating. Keeping those people locked in that Dome with no help or protection is criminal. Heads need to roll from the top to the bottem.

Dara
09-03-2005, 12:15 AM
That is what I heard Dara. Sad.
Wow. Oh, and I didn't mean I didn't believe you about the number of patients. It was more like, Oh, no, did they say 80? I'm just getting progressively horrified. I thought I was maxed out. I watch all day, then my husband comes home and my friends get off work and I catch them up.

rollerbladr123
09-03-2005, 01:04 AM
That article is totally devastating. Keeping those people locked in that Dome with no help or protection is criminal. Heads need to roll from the top to the bottem.
I agree Tybee- that article just made me sick !!

FACE-IT
09-03-2005, 01:05 AM
I saw the head of the Army Corps of Engineers interviewed on PBS, and his lead General had estimated it would take anywhere from a month to to two and a half months to pump out New Orleans. They are still weighing what would be the best approach. One of the considerations is, with the Lake level dropping they may breach part of the levee and allow the water from the "New Orleans Basin" to drain back into the Lake. They have to weigh that approach against the odds that the River (and Lake) could rise if storms came through, and that would defeat that approach. It's going to be years before New Orleans is inhabitable again. The refugees are going to be living elsewhere for a long time.

Mabel
09-03-2005, 02:47 AM
Bill O'Reilly talking to someone who is supervising medic services in NOLA. He says all the patients are finally out of Charity Hospital (and I believe all hospitals), but there are employees barricaded on an upper floor, hiding from drug-seekers who are shooting, and starting IVs on each other to stay alive. They need troops at Memorial Hospital, too.

This contradicts what I heard tonight, that the patients at Charity Hospital are still waiting to be evacuated. I hope what you heard is correct.

tybee204
09-03-2005, 02:52 AM
Apparantly The Department of Homeland Security has been blocking The Red Cross from extending any services in New Orleans. The less then brilliant consept of Homeland Security is that if the Red Cross provides food and other services to the starving victims within the City they wont want to evacuate that cesspool of human waste and dead bodies.

Can we say FUBAR!!!!

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?


Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

FACE-IT
09-03-2005, 02:56 AM
This contradicts what I heard tonight, that the patients at Charity Hospital are still waiting to be evacuated. I hope what you heard is correct.here's an update--everyone has been evacuated from Charity

New Orleans Hospital Evacuations Finish

Two of New Orleans' most troubled hospitals were evacuated late Friday after desperate doctors spent days making tough choices about which patients got dwindling supplies of food, water and medicines.

Rescuers finally made it into Charity and University hospitals and evacuated all remaining patients and staff.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050903/APA/509030532

GonzoReiter
09-03-2005, 03:08 AM
US Senator David Vitter said that the death toll from Hurricane Katrina could top 10,000 in Louisiana alone.


"My guess is that it will start at 10,000, but that is only a guess," Vitter said, adding that he was not basing his remarks on any official death toll or body count.

Vitter, a Louisiana Republican, also called for the immediate deployment of regular US combat troops in New Orleans, saying the build-up of National Guard troops was too slow to quickly restore order.

Such a step would require Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco to formally request the dispatch of federal army soldiers, a highly unusual step.

Blanco said on Thursday that she had asked for 40,000 troops, the majority of which are National Guard units from Louisiana and elsewhere.

Five-thousand National Guard troops are expected to be on the ground in violence-wracked New Orleans by late Friday, military leaders said.

But Vitter said that timeline could be too slow, amid reports that bands of armed men are roaming the streets in the city, which is 80 percent submerged in floods brought in by a storm tide after the hurricane hit on Monday.

Vitter, speaking to reporters at the emergency response center in Baton Rouge, also said he gave the federal government a grade 'F' for its response to the disaster so far.

Liz
09-03-2005, 03:10 AM
According to Dr. Gupta on Larry King Live, all the patients are not out of Charity Hospital. He quanitifed it by saying that some are left where they are due to their medical conditions.

Mabel
09-03-2005, 03:16 AM
According to Dr. Gupta on Larry King Live, all the patients are not out of Charity Hospital. He quanitifed it by saying that some are left where they are due to their medical conditions.


The show that comes on after Larry King - sorry, I don't know the name because I usually switch channels when Larry comes on - said the same thing. The patients at Charity have not been evacuated... the nurses there watched from the roof with their critical patients while non-essential personel were evacuated from the private hospital across the street. Obviously someone has the story wrong. I don't think we'll ever know the truth.

Liz
09-03-2005, 03:24 AM
Lou Dobbs, Mabel?

With poor and even no communication, maybe it isn't so surprising that this who rescue operation has been botched beyond belief.

rollerbladr123
09-03-2005, 04:45 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_superdome_hk1Guardsmen Halt Evacuation at Superdome By MARY FOSTER, Associated Press Writer
Quote 1 NEW ORLEANS - National Guard members halted the evacuation of the Superdome early Saturday after buses transporting the refugees of Hurricane Katrina stopped rolling. About 2,000 people remained in the stadium and could be there until Sunday, according to the Texas Air National Guard. They had hoped to evacuate the last of the crowd before dawn Saturday. Guard members said they were told only that the buses had stopped coming and to close down the area where the buses were loaded.

more at link....

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 09:59 AM
Re Charity Hospital last night on Fox, they were saying evacuations were halted/delayed due to the shootings in the area, and rescue workers could not go in....Sounds like CNN didn't mention that? I have no idea which one's right or wrong at this point. I just hope all will be out by the end of today.

Dara
09-03-2005, 10:06 AM
Re Charity Hospital last night on Fox, they were saying evacuations were halted/delayed due to the shootings in the area, and rescue workers could not go in....Sounds like CNN didn't mention that? I have no idea which one's right or wrong at this point. I just hope all will be out by the end of today.
I think CNN had reported that earlier (or was it the day before...it's all running together). Then, last night, Sanjay Gupta said all patients were out, but caregivers weren't. Later, it seems he said they weren't. More conflicting info, but I found this CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.hospitals/index.html) dated this morning:



Evacuations at some New Orleans hospitals were expected to proceed Saturday, while conditions at the city's largest public hospital were reported to be deteriorating further.
As of Friday night, more than 200 patients remained at Charity Hospital, CNN Senior Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta reported.

The hospital has no power, no water and no food. Some patients are on ventilators being worked by hand pumps; the bodies of those who have died are being stored in stairwells, as the hospital's morgue is flooded. Two patients died on a ramp while waiting to be evacuated.


And, of course, this is after everyone, including the staff, got out of Tulane.

(and it said "Five of Tenet's other hospitals have been evacuated, except for one doctor remaining at Lindy Boggs Medical Center in New Orleans, who refuses to leave because staffers' pets are there, Campanini said." Awwww. I hope that doctor stays safe)

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 10:08 AM
Roller,

Thanks for sharing that article.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 10:25 AM
I think CNN had reported that earlier (or was it the day before...it's all running together). Then, last night, Sanjay Gupta said all patients were out, but caregivers weren't. Later, it seems he said they weren't. More conflicting info, but I found this CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/03/katrina.hospitals/index.html) dated this morning:


And, of course, this is after everyone, including the staff, got out of Tulane.

(and it said "Five of Tenet's other hospitals have been evacuated, except for one doctor remaining at Lindy Boggs Medical Center in New Orleans, who refuses to leave because staffers' pets are there, Campanini said." Awwww. I hope that doctor stays safe)

Do we know who actually did the actual evacuating of the private hospitals? Was it outside assistance, or did the hospital itself start evacuating earlier, having a better evacuation procedure?

If I were to point fingers (haha, just kidding - I'm feel much better after sleeping!), I'd want to know: Did the private and county hospitals both start out on Tuesday morning in the same situation, and the private ones got all the outside evacuation assistance, while the county-run hospital didn't? Or, did the private hospital actually have a better plan in place, better staff/management? Also, still wondering about the sizes - were they similar? And, literally, geographic areas - was one in a better site to be evacuated, and one had more flooding problems? And at least in the last 1-2 days, it sounds as though Charity had more shootings to hamper their efforts than the other hospital.

I have no idea, just questions I have. Only when I have a better understanding to those questions (which, honestly, we may not know for a long time, as I don't believe everything on the media - would rather do research after the fact to compare the hospitals), then I may get fuming mad if there really is a disconnect.

Dara
09-03-2005, 10:33 AM
I have the same questions, DeputyDawg. I just don't know. I keep looking for info, because no matter what, we need to know. I'm just so afraid when everyone who survived is fed and has had medical attention and another big story comes along, a smidge of apathy will settle in and we'll forget. And there have to be changes, both in policy/procedures and in personnel, imo. But unfortunately, without public outcry, I don't think we'll see much of either.

Dara
09-03-2005, 11:29 AM
A reporter on CNN (Tom Foreman?) is saying that FEMA proudly told him before the hurricane hit that they had prepositioned supplies in trailers in an "arc of relief" around the Gulf Coast and would bring them in as early as Monday.

That sure didn't happen.

Also he said last year FEMA ran a hurricane scenario on a hypothetical hurricane named Pam. Said they knew the city could flood and that many would not or could not evacuate (he mentioned how many citizens don't have care, for example).

Hope we hear more about all this.

rollerbladr123
09-03-2005, 11:48 AM
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09.htmlMore guns, buses, relief roll into city

Quote 1 New Orleans, or what's left of it, awoke Friday to discover that fire had been added to the array of pestilences - floodwaters, hunger, looting and mass death - that have beset the city since Hurricane Katrina's winds ripped it apart five days ago.

The plumes of smoke rising from locations on both sides of the river were offset by the belated arrival of long-promised National Guard units in a bid to further the evacuation and reverse the virtual anarchy that descended over the city as beleaguered and increasingly angry local officials begged for federal assistance.

Quote 2 If New Orleans was the epicenter of misery and chaos, reports from more remote suburbs revealed that the death and looting was not limited to the region's big city.

With unofficial death toll estimates rising into the thousands, State Sen. Walter Boasso said at least 100 corpses had been collected in St. Bernard Parish, 25 having been tethered together to keep them from floating away.

"We've had people lying in water in the attic for days," Boasso said of the continuing rescue effort.

more at link...

Mabel
09-03-2005, 02:17 PM
Do we know who actually did the actual evacuating of the private hospitals? Was it outside assistance, or did the hospital itself start evacuating earlier, having a better evacuation procedure?

If I were to point fingers (haha, just kidding - I'm feel much better after sleeping!), I'd want to know: Did the private and county hospitals both start out on Tuesday morning in the same situation, and the private ones got all the outside evacuation assistance, while the county-run hospital didn't? Or, did the private hospital actually have a better plan in place, better staff/management? Also, still wondering about the sizes - were they similar? And, literally, geographic areas - was one in a better site to be evacuated, and one had more flooding problems? And at least in the last 1-2 days, it sounds as though Charity had more shootings to hamper their efforts than the other hospital.

I have no idea, just questions I have. Only when I have a better understanding to those questions (which, honestly, we may not know for a long time, as I don't believe everything on the media - would rather do research after the fact to compare the hospitals), then I may get fuming mad if there really is a disconnect.


Those are good questions. One thing I can tell you is that the hospitals are across the street from each other. They showed some of the staff at Charity on the roof with patients on stretchers watching while the last remaining staff was evacuated from Tulane.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 03:19 PM
Those are good questions. One thing I can tell you is that the hospitals are across the street from each other. They showed some of the staff at Charity on the roof with patients on stretchers watching while the last remaining staff was evaculated from Tulane.

Hmmmm, that just doesn't sound good, does it? I just don't know what to think right now...other than it's all so sad. :banghead:

ETA: Wow, across the street (read: canal now) from each other - wonder if they did any cross-hospital triage process? I would hope so, and would like to hear if anyone finds out at a later date....

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 03:22 PM
I have the same questions, DeputyDawg. I just don't know. I keep looking for info, because no matter what, we need to know. I'm just so afraid when everyone who survived is fed and has had medical attention and another big story comes along, a smidge of apathy will settle in and we'll forget. And there have to be changes, both in policy/procedures and in personnel, imo. But unfortunately, without public outcry, I don't think we'll see much of either.

Out of the probably thousands of stories there are from NO, this is one (for whatever reason, I don't know) that interests me, and I hope we don't forget in apathy. On a smaller-scale, this could be one "case study," if you will, that might have a chance of having some truth being flushed out later.

SieSie
09-03-2005, 03:44 PM
The levees that protected the city from the Mississippi River and Lake Ponchartrain were partially redesigned and rebuilt to withstand a Force 3 hurricane. The ten-year project to build them up to that level was launched in 1965, but is still incomplete after 40 years. The portion of the levee that collapsed, however, was one that had been completed. The city and state governments took a continuing gamble since the 1960s that no stronger storm would happen to strike New Orleans. Eventually, the city was bound to lose; it was only a matter of time. Some critics would like to blame the disaster on the recent reduction of federal funds to the Army Corps of Engineers, but funds have been declining for nearly a decade. According to the Chicago Tribune, “Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a $12 million study to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study isn’t scheduled to get under way until 2006.”
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=16582

I just can’t fathom why things become so complicated with politics. KISS – Keep It Simple Stupid. Instead of taking the $12 million dollars that was authorized to use to STUDY how much it would cost to protect NO from a Cat. 5 hurricane, take that same $12 million to JUST FIX IT. It’s been studied, they’ve known for years that it’s not strong enough to withstand anything more than a Cat. 3. Engineers have stated this. No studying needed – just re-build the levee stronger, build additional levee’s such as the Dutch have done.

Besides which, if this project was authorized in 1999, why wasn’t the study scheduled to get under way until 2006? What’s been the hold-up?

Also – DH just pointed out to me, that since the study hasn’t even started yet, the $12 million dollars should still be there – so get in there and get ‘er done! Screw the study, use that money to help these people re-build some semblance of a life.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 03:47 PM
Besides which, if this project was authorized in 1999, why wasn’t the study scheduled to get under way until 2006? What’s been the hold-up?

Also – DH just pointed out to me, that since the study hasn’t even started yet, the $12 million dollars should still be there – so get in there and get ‘er done! Screw the study, use that money to help these people re-build some semblance of a life.


Yep!!! No study needed now, we know the results of a Cat 4...I'd say the money should be up for the taking!

rollerbladr123
09-04-2005, 12:11 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane_katrinaNew Orleans Left to the Dead and Dying

Quote 1
By ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press Writer 17 minutes ago



NEW ORLEANS - The last bedraggled refugees were rescued from the Superdome on Saturday and the convention center was all but cleared, leaving the heart of New Orleans to the dead and dying, the elderly and frail stranded too many days without food, water or medical care.

Quote 2 No one knows how many were killed by Hurricane Katrina's floods and how many more succumbed waiting to be rescued. But the bodies are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating among the ruined city, crumpled on wheelchairs, abandoned on highways

Quote 3 Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Saturday that she expected the death toll to reach the thousands. And Craig Vanderwagen, rear admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service, said one morgue alone, at a St. Gabriel prison, expected 1,000 to 2,000 bodies.

more at link...

Dara
09-04-2005, 12:28 AM
Per Christiane Amanpour--as of now, none of the many offers of foreign aid has been accepted. She's pointed out that criticism of the slow/lack of response is international. She said we've all seen food drops take place quickly after disasters. Why not here and now?

CNN

concernedperson
09-04-2005, 11:23 AM
Just saw an interview with Mayor Nagin on CNN. When asked about his priority right now he said that it was getting the firemen and police out of the city. He said they are tramatized and need psychological and physical medical attention right away and the Baton Rouge hospitals were full. He confirmed that there has already been 2 suicides within the police department.

He said he was running into bureaucratic snaffews with FEMA but he indicated he would pay for it himself and worry about the money later.

Casshew
09-04-2005, 11:24 AM
He said they are tramatized and need psychological and physical medical attention Tom Cruise will send them vitamins

tipper
09-04-2005, 11:34 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane_katrina[...]
Quote 3 Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Saturday that she expected the death toll to reach the thousands.
more at link...
As usual she's a day late and a dollar short. People have been saying that since last weekend.

SieSie
09-04-2005, 12:30 PM
Tom Cruise will send them vitamins
:clap: :bang: :banghead:
Good one, Cass!!!

FACE-IT
09-04-2005, 01:06 PM
The levees that protected the city from the Mississippi River and Lake Ponchartrain were partially redesigned and rebuilt to withstand a Force 3 hurricane. The ten-year project to build them up to that level was launched in 1965, but is still incomplete after 40 years. The portion of the levee that collapsed, however, was one that had been completed. The city and state governments took a continuing gamble since the 1960s that no stronger storm would happen to strike New Orleans. Eventually, the city was bound to lose; it was only a matter of time. Some critics would like to blame the disaster on the recent reduction of federal funds to the Army Corps of Engineers, but funds have been declining for nearly a decade. According to the Chicago Tribune, “Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a $12 million study to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study isn’t scheduled to get under way until 2006.”
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=16582

I just can’t fathom why things become so complicated with politics. KISS – Keep It Simple Stupid. Instead of taking the $12 million dollars that was authorized to use to STUDY how much it would cost to protect NO from a Cat. 5 hurricane, take that same $12 million to JUST FIX IT. It’s been studied, they’ve known for years that it’s not strong enough to withstand anything more than a Cat. 3. Engineers have stated this. No studying needed – just re-build the levee stronger, build additional levee’s such as the Dutch have done.

Besides which, if this project was authorized in 1999, why wasn’t the study scheduled to get under way until 2006? What’s been the hold-up?

Also – DH just pointed out to me, that since the study hasn’t even started yet, the $12 million dollars should still be there – so get in there and get ‘er done! Screw the study, use that money to help these people re-build some semblance of a life.SieSie, I heard one estimate to rebuild the levees to withstand a Category 5 Hurricane; that estimate was $30 billion. They need to do a study, because there are many factors that play into the levee system. They starightened the Mississippi River some years ago, and destroyed huge wetlands which were some of the protection for New Orleans. It isn't just a matter of going in and rebuilding the levees.

rollerbladr123
09-04-2005, 01:41 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050904/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_49New Orleans Begins Grisly Cleanup
Quote 1 NEW ORLEANS - With the last weary refugees rescued from the Superdome and convention center, New Orleans turned its attention Sunday to gathering up and counting the dead across a ghastly landscape awash in perhaps thousands of corpses

Quote 2
No one knows how many people were killed by Hurricane Katrina and how many more succumbed waiting to be rescued. But the bodies are everywhere: hidden in attics, floating in the ruined city, crumpled in wheelchairs, abandoned on highways.

"I think it's evident it's in the thousands," Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said Sunday on CNN, echoing predictions by city and state officials last week about the death toll.

more at link

Nore
09-04-2005, 02:32 PM
Re Charity Hospital last night on Fox, they were saying evacuations were halted/delayed due to the shootings in the area, and rescue workers could not go in....Sounds like CNN didn't mention that? I have no idea which one's right or wrong at this point. I just hope all will be out by the end of today.
----------------------

Our hospitals in Cleveland are going to recieve rescued ill persons. Plans are for University hosp. Cleveland Clinic and possiblly Metro General.I am so glad the people ar getting the aid they so badly need.I do not know how to post links but I'm sure it will be mentioned on www.cleveland.com The Plain Dealer.

Mabel
09-04-2005, 03:29 PM
Tom Cruise will send them vitamins
http://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

rollerbladr123
09-04-2005, 04:37 PM
SieSie, I heard one estimate to rebuild the levees to withstand a Category 5 Hurricane; that estimate was $30 billion. They need to do a study, because there are many factors that play into the levee system. They starightened the Mississippi River some years ago, and destroyed huge wetlands which were some of the protection for New Orleans. It isn't just a matter of going in and rebuilding the levees.
Buzz here is a good article on how washington failed to fund the levee projects inspite of warnings

http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050904/ts_latimes/despitewarningswashingtonfailedtofundleveeprojects

Quote 1 WASHINGTON — For years, Washington had been warned that doom lurked just beyond the levees. And for years, the White House and Congress had dickered over how much money to put into shoring up century-old dikes and carrying out newer flood control projects to protect the city of New Orleans. As recently as three months ago, the alarms were sounding — and being brushed aside. In late May, the New Orleans district of the Army Corps of Engineers formally notified Washington that hurricane storm surges could knock out two of the big pumping stations that must operate night and day even under normal conditions to keep the city dry

more at link....

rollerbladr123
09-04-2005, 04:51 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050904/ts_nm/katrina_dc_1New Orleans collects dead as officials dodge blame

Quote 1 NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - New Orleans began the gruesome task of collecting its thousands of dead on Sunday as the Bush administration tried to save face after its botched rescue plans left the city at the mercy of Hurricane Katrina.
Except for rescue workers and scattered groups of people, streets in the once-vibrant capital of jazz and good times were all but abandoned after a mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of refugees into neighboring Texas and other states.

Battered and sickened survivors made no attempt to disguise their anger: "We have been abandoned by our own country, " Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, just south of New Orleans, told NBC's Meet the Press....

,,,,,Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld toured a medical facility at New Orleans' international airport on Sunday. He spoke and shook hands with military and rescue officials but walked right by a dozen refugees lying on stretchers just feet away from him, most of them extremely sick or handicapped.

more at link....

concernedperson
09-04-2005, 05:00 PM
Police shot 8 people carrying guns on the bridge at the Mississippi River....5-6 are dead. From PD chief Riley.

Cypros
09-04-2005, 05:07 PM
,,,,,Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld toured a medical facility at New Orleans' international airport on Sunday. He spoke and shook hands with military and rescue officials but walked right by a dozen refugees lying on stretchers just feet away from him, most of them extremely sick or handicapped.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I just cannot stand that man!!!

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 06:12 PM
----------------------

Our hospitals in Cleveland are going to recieve rescued ill persons. Plans are for University hosp. Cleveland Clinic and possiblly Metro General.I am so glad the people ar getting the aid they so badly need.I do not know how to post links but I'm sure it will be mentioned on www.cleveland.com The Plain Dealer.


Yay! It still is amazing to me that hospitalized folks are being transported so far away - just shows the enormity of this disaster.

Blessings to Ohio as well!

mysteriew
09-04-2005, 06:15 PM
Police shot 8 people carrying guns on the bridge at the Mississippi River....5-6 are dead. From PD chief Riley.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_SHOOTINGS_HK1?SITE=GAGAI&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge Sunday, killing five or six, a deputy chief said. A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal.

The contractors were walking across a bridge on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to fix the 17th Street Canal, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Corps.

concernedperson
09-04-2005, 06:21 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_SHOOTINGS_HK1?SITE=GAGAI&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge Sunday, killing five or six, a deputy chief said. A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal.

The contractors were walking across a bridge on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to fix the 17th Street Canal, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Corps.

OK, now I am screaming with pain. This is a horror of all horrors...we have lost everything that resembles humanity. I think I can do better than whomever is in charge. And now my child is entering the war zone to help and I will have to worry about that for several days. So, helping isn't what it what its cracked up to be. Crap! And double crap!

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 06:29 PM
Wait, CNN maybe got it wrong...hang on....

Ntegrity
09-04-2005, 06:29 PM
CNN reports the people who were shot were shooting at the Army Corps of Engineers employees. They were thugs.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 06:30 PM
CNN reports the people who were shot were shooting at the Army Corps of Engineers employees. They were thugs.

Truly, thank God!

concernedperson
09-04-2005, 06:31 PM
CNN reports the people who were shot were shooting at the Army Corps of Engineers employees. They were thugs.

Oh good, you just saved 5 years of my life. Thank you so much.....

Ntegrity
09-04-2005, 06:31 PM
Let's hope that's the right story!!

mysteriew
09-04-2005, 06:33 PM
Thank you all for posting that. I was just reading in Cass's thread and saw that reports were coming in that the story wasn't correct as written, and was coming here to post it. But as usual you all beat me to it! :D

mysteriew
09-04-2005, 07:05 PM
Somebody goofed big time! This article was written at 3:51 PM PDT on Sun. 090405. So the correct info was known, just reported incorrectly.

As authorities struggled to keep order, police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said.

Fourteen contractors were traveling across the Danziger Bridge under police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers. None of the contractors was killed, Hall said.

http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/front/story/2687158p-11226089c.html

Tom'sGirl
09-04-2005, 08:13 PM
Somebody goofed big time! This article was written at 3:51 PM PDT on Sun. 090405. So the correct info was known, just reported incorrectly.

As authorities struggled to keep order, police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said.

Fourteen contractors were traveling across the Danziger Bridge under police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers. None of the contractors was killed, Hall said.

http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/front/story/2687158p-11226089c.htmlMSNBC Breaking News
------------------------------------------------------

Coast Guard rescue helicopter crashes in New Orleans -
A U.S. Coast Guard helicopter crashed Sunday in New Orleans. Both crew members reportedly were able to walk away from the scene.

Casshew
09-04-2005, 08:22 PM
Rescue Helicopter crashes... details soon

bulletgirl2002
09-04-2005, 08:25 PM
Crew has been resued no casualties. yippie

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 08:30 PM
Is everybody's heart racing? Geez, mine just about stopped when I saw that helicopter down. Glad to hear no caualties, and hope they'll be okay....

Tom'sGirl
09-04-2005, 08:33 PM
Is everybody's heart racing? Geez, mine just about stopped when I saw that helicopter down. Glad to hear no caualties, and hope they'll be okay....When it flashed up and I posted it I was glad that it included the crew were okay.

NOW, I'm waiting to hear why it came down! Hope it wasn't another nut on the ground with an assault rifle.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 08:34 PM
Fox just said it was a "rollover," with crew of 2 only, onboard....I, too, hope it wasn't due to an assault.

SieSie
09-04-2005, 08:58 PM
SieSie, I heard one estimate to rebuild the levees to withstand a Category 5 Hurricane; that estimate was $30 billion. They need to do a study, because there are many factors that play into the levee system. They starightened the Mississippi River some years ago, and destroyed huge wetlands which were some of the protection for New Orleans. It isn't just a matter of going in and rebuilding the levees.

Ah, thanks for the explanation Buzzm!! But, after reading about some of the other places our government spends its money, II still feel the levee should've been fixed years and years ago. Didn't they say engineers knew it couldn't withstand more than Cat. 3 for over 40 years?? Lots and lots of wasted money over decades that could've gone to disaster prevention all along the gulf coast. :banghead:

Dara
09-04-2005, 09:02 PM
This may have been posted, but we keep going round and round about whose fault it was that the National Guard didn't arrive/start helping out sooner.

We're not the only ones asking: Congress Likely to Probe Guard Response (%20http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard)

What I've heard is that the governor must ask for the National Guard to show up and this article says, typically it is the governor's responsbility.

Now, in another thread (the Sound Off one), I posted links to show that on August 26th, Blanco declared a state of emergency, and on August 28th, the White House website posted a statement by Bush: Yesterday, I signed a disaster declaration for the state of Louisiana, and this morning I signed a disaster declaration for the state of Mississippi. These declarations will allow federal agencies to coordinate all disaster relief efforts with state and local officials. We will do everything in our power to help the people in the communities affected by this storm. I am surprised if that means he has absolutely no recourse to send in troops or take over if people are dying and help isn't adequate, which he admits, and his FEMA guy is the last guy to know, well, anything. But some posters say this is so. I'd like to know.

I know one thing; the governor apparently did try to get at least some of the National Guard there. The Yahoo article states:

Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck — a delay nearly certain to be investigated by Congress.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.


I hope Congress figures this all out.

Tom'sGirl
09-04-2005, 09:02 PM
Fox just said it was a "rollover," with crew of 2 only, onboard....I, too, hope it wasn't due to an assault.A helicopter crashed Sunday evening in New Orleans. NBC News reported that the two pilots survived and were in good condition. There was some confusion over whose helicopter it was. A Coast Guard spokesman said the craft belonged to a civilian contractor doing work for the Army. Initial reports had said it was a Coast Guard chopper.

A state official said the helicopter was not involved in rescue operations. It crashed in the area of the Danziger Bridge, said Mark Smith, spokesman for the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.

“The helicopter came down hard and rolled over on its side and broke its blades off and broke its tail off,” Smith told reporters in Baton Rouge.

“There were two civilians on the helicopter. Both sustained cuts and scrapes,” he said.

It was not known why the helicopter was in the area, Smith said.

ETA: Oh brother, my local CBS station is still saying it was a rescue choper.........do ya ever get the feeling the left hand and the right never get together when it comes to the news:doh:

rollerbladr123
09-04-2005, 09:38 PM
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09.html#076953Civillian helicopter crashes in New Orleans

Sunday, Sept. 5, 2005 8:15 p.m.
The pilot of a civilian helicopter and a passenger participating in the Hurricane Katrina rescue effort escaped serious injury Sunday night after the aircraft crash landed near
Bayou St. John in Mid-City near the Lindy Boggs Medical Center, state officials said.
Few details were available about the accident which occurred around 7 p.m.
Officials said the helicopter came down hard, rolled over and lost its blades. The Coast Guard removed the two men from the scene, but it was not known whether they received medical attention.

less0305
09-04-2005, 09:44 PM
At least one reporter I saw had it right and the cahoonas to ask the hard questions - something nobody else has done. And I'd give anything if I knew who he was!!!! He KNEW that the governor HAD to ask for the troops and not only ask for the troops, she had to ask for a specific number. He asked her repeatedly what day she asked for the troops and how many she asked for. She couldn't answer him - because she didn't want to let it be known she had screwed up. He continued asking her and she continued side stepping and he asked her pointedly about five times, "Governor, was it in a phone call you had on Monday? Was it on Tuesday? What day?" She said, "I don't even know what day today is." He said, "Well, how many did you ask for? Did you ask for 11,000? Did you ask for 40,000?" She COULD NOT answer him. I thought the woman was going to start crying. She wanted to get out of that interview so bad, I believe she would have went to the Superdome if she could have.

The Mayor of N.O. didn't have an evacuation plan or rescue plans or relief plans. He didn't have enough supplies and food and water at the superdome. He had NO experience in any natural disasters. Actually, he had NO - none - nada - zippo - political experience at all before being elected mayor. The people of N.O. elected someone who had NO political experience. He didn't start out on the planning & zoning board and move up to city council or anything like that. He ran a cable communications company. But he's their mayor, at least until the next election.

And if Michael Brown doesn't have the experience and wherewithall to run FEMA then he ought to be run out on a rail - I don't care who appointed him.

If the President is due criticism over the appointment of Michael Brown, then that is the only criticism I think he deserves at this point - unless our elected officials find differently in their congressional hearings. I'll hold out until the findings before I start blaming the President.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 09:50 PM
At least one reporter I saw had it right and the cahoonas to ask the hard questions - something nobody else has done. And I'd give anything if I knew who he was!!!! He KNEW that the governor HAD to ask for the troops and not only ask for the troops, she had to ask for a specific number. He asked her repeatedly what day she asked for the troops and how many she asked for. She couldn't answer him - because she didn't want to let it be known she had screwed up. He continued asking her and she continued side stepping and he asked her pointedly about five times, "Governor, was it in a phone call you had on Monday? Was it on Tuesday? What day?" She said, "I don't even know what day today is." He said, "Well, how many did you ask for? Did you ask for 11,000? Did you ask for 40,000?" She COULD NOT answer him. I thought the woman was going to start crying. She wanted to get out of that interview so bad, I believe she would have went to the Superdome if she could have.

The Mayor of N.O. didn't have an evacuation plan or rescue plans or relief plans. He didn't have enough supplies and food and water at the superdome. He had NO experience in any natural disasters. Actually, he had NO - none - nada - zippo - political experience at all before being elected mayor. The people of N.O. elected someone who had NO political experience. He didn't start out on the planning & zoning board and move up to city council or anything like that. He ran a cable communications company. But he's their mayor, at least until the next election.

And if Michael Brown doesn't have the experience and wherewithall to run FEMA then he ought to be run out on a rail - I don't care who appointed him.

If the President is due criticism over the appointment of Michael Brown, then that is the only criticism I think he deserves at this point - unless our elected officials find differently in their congressional hearings. I'll hold out until the findings before I start blaming the President.

What Less said!

And did I read it here (or in the newspaper? I can't remember)...re asking for the National Guard - she has to ask permission for different situations as well. She may have asked for assistance for humanitary help...but then has to go request separately, assistance for military presence/power, police force. That does sound like a lotta red tape, but I bet it's been that way for a long time, and who knows, there might be logical reason for the separation. But I'm sure that caused some confusion, and therefore delay, when they started having huge criminal issues and civil disturbance.

mysteriew
09-04-2005, 09:56 PM
Did you ever think all of the finger pointing from Louisana might have a two fold or even three fold purpose?
1- CYA- Not my fault, some one else's.
2- Politics- let's face it, our country lives for it's politics.
3- The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The louder they scream, the more finger pointing they do, the more federal monies will be thrown at them. What do you hear from Mississippi? Fla.? Is Louisana trying to make sure that they get the majority of the emergency funding?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly a week after Hurricane Katrina, Mississippi continues to suffer, often in silence.

It felt the full force of the storm but the destruction and misery in Mississippi have been overshadowed by the catastrophic aftermath in New Orleans.
http://wkrc.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=CC95B27D-65E7-4D34-89EC-18846325AB02

kgeaux
09-04-2005, 09:58 PM
Did you ever think all of the finger pointing from Louisana might have a two fold or even three fold purpose?
1- CYA- Not my fault, some one else's.
2- Politics- let's face it, our country lives for it's politics.
3- The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The louder they scream, the more finger pointing they do, the more federal monies will be thrown at them. What do you hear from Mississippi? Fla.? Is Louisana trying to make sure that they get the majority of the emergency funding?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nearly a week after Hurricane Katrina, Mississippi continues to suffer, often in silence.

It felt the full force of the storm but the destruction and misery in Mississippi have been overshadowed by the catastrophic aftermath in New Orleans.
http://wkrc.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=CC95B27D-65E7-4D34-89EC-18846325AB02

I wish that was what it was about. But our leadership did screw up. Big time.

kgeaux
09-04-2005, 10:07 PM
At least one reporter I saw had it right and the cahoonas to ask the hard questions - something nobody else has done. And I'd give anything if I knew who he was!!!! He KNEW that the governor HAD to ask for the troops and not only ask for the troops, she had to ask for a specific number. He asked her repeatedly what day she asked for the troops and how many she asked for. She couldn't answer him - because she didn't want to let it be known she had screwed up. He continued asking her and she continued side stepping and he asked her pointedly about five times, "Governor, was it in a phone call you had on Monday? Was it on Tuesday? What day?" She said, "I don't even know what day today is." He said, "Well, how many did you ask for? Did you ask for 11,000? Did you ask for 40,000?" She COULD NOT answer him. I thought the woman was going to start crying. She wanted to get out of that interview so bad, I believe she would have went to the Superdome if she could have.

The Mayor of N.O. didn't have an evacuation plan or rescue plans or relief plans. He didn't have enough supplies and food and water at the superdome. He had NO experience in any natural disasters. Actually, he had NO - none - nada - zippo - political experience at all before being elected mayor. The people of N.O. elected someone who had NO political experience. He didn't start out on the planning & zoning board and move up to city council or anything like that. He ran a cable communications company. But he's their mayor, at least until the next election.

And if Michael Brown doesn't have the experience and wherewithall to run FEMA then he ought to be run out on a rail - I don't care who appointed him.

If the President is due criticism over the appointment of Michael Brown, then that is the only criticism I think he deserves at this point - unless our elected officials find differently in their congressional hearings. I'll hold out until the findings before I start blaming the President.


A couple of points: The people of Louisiana are definitely hearing where the errors were made. The buck stops right at Kathleen Blanco's desk, and it pains me to say so, because she is a nice lady. Apparently not a wonderful politician, but she is a wonderful person. Nice, nice family. Good people, salt of the earth. But she screwed up big time. And we know it.

2nd: the city-parish president of Lafayette parish is a businessman. He ran a successful pet store(!) if that sounds like experience to you! We elected him in a run against a career politician because we just thought someone who could run a very successful business might do a better job than someone who just has a lot of good ole boy networking going on. And so far, so good. So the mayor of N.O. is not necessarily a political dunce because he does not have a background in politics. That may even be a plus instead of a minus. People evacuating to the superdome were told to bring food and water with them, but apparently not all did. There were supplies that had been gathered in areas outside of New Orleans, but they were not brought in when they should have been. I'm hearing that has more to do with the governor than the mayor, but you're right, we'll see when the congressional investigation is over exactly where the blame lies.

3rd: I think FEMA is having some problems with leadership right now because they've been tucked into the Homeland Security Program. Things are new and there are different ways of running things, and it hasn't been all smooth.

less0305
09-04-2005, 10:16 PM
A couple of points: We elected him in a run against a career politician because we just thought someone who could run a very successful business might do a better job than someone who just has a lot of good ole boy networking going on. And so far, so good. So the mayor of N.O. is not necessarily a political dunce because he does not have a background in politics. That may even be a plus instead of a minus.

I agree with a lot of what you said....but just to throw this out: I prefer to elect someone who has started out maybe serving on a board or committee here or there, then maybe sought an office a little higher up on maybe a planning/zoning board or board of adjustments. Then maybe run for city council. Because they learn things as they go. I don't want someone who has no experience whatsoever running my city when a Cat 5 hurricane is bearing down. I'll take someone who might have had some experience along the way. I don't want his or her first true test of leadership to be a test like this one. But of course, the other side of the coin is some of your longer serving folks with experience can and do become corrupt or get slack in their duties. So I guess it washes both ways. I don't live there so I don't know, but it sounded as if he didn't have a strong plan.

By the way...what was Gov. Blanco's prior experience? What did she do before becoming Gov.?

mysteriew
09-04-2005, 10:19 PM
I wish that was what it was about. But our leadership did screw up. Big time.

I agree on the screw up. But I am thinking about the hysteria/PR nightmare that has followed. Normally, you would see a lot of covering, or at least no one in politics openly accusing. It would all be seething under subtle hints, innuendos. Remember the primary rule in politics is keep it out of the public eye. Bush spouted the normal party speak on his first announcement. "we are going to go in and get those people out, it is up to everyone". Then after his visit he went to stage 2- "there are some problems, they will be handled". Although he hasn't called for a full scale investigation yet, you can tell it is coming. Louisana officials line at first was (at least to the media) "we need help down here, it is real bad- we are going to need more help". Then after aid was starting to go in, troops were starting to go in- that is when the screaming and finger pointing began. Only after the assistance was enroute or was actually entering the city did the finger pointing begin.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 10:23 PM
I wish that was what it was about. But our leadership did screw up. Big time.


I have a question on the role of Mayor of NO, and I don't know if you know the answer...

In many cities, the position of Mayor is basically a figure-head, and don't have a whole lot of power, per se. (Here in our city of 115K people, the Mayor is a part-time position, for example.) Oftentimes in city government, it's the City Manager that REALLY runs the show. Do you know if that's the case in NO? And, second question - how long has the Mayor been Mayor? Was he elected last November or a few years ago?

Thanks!

mysteriew
09-04-2005, 10:28 PM
3rd: I think FEMA is having some problems with leadership right now because they've been tucked into the Homeland Security Program. Things are new and there are different ways of running things, and it hasn't been all smooth.

I agree with this. They have been spending a lot of money making sure that local LE and emergency services have up to date equipment, they have done some training. So they are not doing all bad.
But from what I have been seeing in the news, there are problems with communication throughout the agency. Not just in the FBI. And I think we will find that is part of the problem here. Communication problems. One hand thought the other hand was doing it. The other hand wasn't sure what they were supposed to be doing. Both hands thought that someone else should be doing it.

less0305
09-04-2005, 10:37 PM
I have a question on the role of Mayor of NO, and I don't know if you know the answer...

In many cities, the position of Mayor is basically a figure-head, and don't have a whole lot of power, per se. (Here in our city of 115K people, the Mayor is a part-time position, for example.) Oftentimes in city government, it's the City Manager that REALLY runs the show. Do you know if that's the case in NO? And, second question - how long has the Mayor been Mayor? Was he elected last November or a few years ago?

Thanks!

Our Mayor is part-time also. He doesn't even vote during council meetings, except to break a tie. But the manager works under the direction of the Mayor and City Council. She carries out their wishes. She does run day-to-day operations. But when we had a tornado the Mayor and Manager worked hand in hand to get FEMA assistance through our state legislature/governor. They worked together in setting the priorities and carrying out the rescue, relief, and clean up.

I think the Mayor of N.O. was elected in 2003 - but I'm not certain.

Tom'sGirl
09-04-2005, 10:46 PM
Our Mayor is part-time also. He doesn't even vote during council meetings, except to break a tie. But the manager works under the direction of the Mayor and City Council. She carries out their wishes. She does run day-to-day operations. But when we had a tornado the Mayor and Manager worked hand in hand to get FEMA assistance through our state legislature/governor. They worked together in setting the priorities and carrying out the rescue, relief, and clean up.

I think the Mayor of N.O. was elected in 2003 - but I'm not certain.
Mayor C Ray Nagin has defied the conventional wisdom from the beginning of his political life. His surprise victory in the New Orleans mayoral election in May 2002, proved that New Orleanians were looking for the city’s leadership to take bold new steps to protect their future. He became the first New Orleans Mayor to rise to the post in nearly 60 years without holding a previous elected office. Ray Nagin put his career in business on hold to lead the city where he was born.

less0305
09-04-2005, 10:48 PM
Mayor C Ray Nagin has defied the conventional wisdom from the beginning of his political life. His surprise victory in the New Orleans mayoral election in May 2002, proved that New Orleanians were looking for the city’s leadership to take bold new steps to protect their future. He became the first New Orleans Mayor to rise to the post in nearly 60 years without holding a previous elected office. Ray Nagin put his career in business on hold to lead the city where he was born.

Well, I'm glad New Orleans has him and not me.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 10:48 PM
I agree with this. They have been spending a lot of money making sure that local LE and emergency services have up to date equipment, they have done some training. So they are not doing all bad.
But from what I have been seeing in the news, there are problems with communication throughout the agency. Not just in the FBI. And I think we will find that is part of the problem here. Communication problems. One hand thought the other hand was doing it. The other hand wasn't sure what they were supposed to be doing. Both hands thought that someone else should be doing it.


Yes!

I'm not an expert at this, as it doesn't totally pertain to my day-to-day job, but from paperwork I see at work...yes, our agency has been working over the last 2 years on updating radio communications, internally and radio frequency communications with other agencies. They finished a radio frequency template about 6 months ago. And around El Paso (I've never been there) there have been huge Communications improvements completed.

Point being - whether we like it or not, improvements have been made, but there's still a lot to be done. After 9/11, much has improved. But, it's all work in progress. Sadly, communications problems (tactical and leadership) appear to be to blame for much of the problems in this situation.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 10:51 PM
Mayor C Ray Nagin has defied the conventional wisdom from the beginning of his political life. His surprise victory in the New Orleans mayoral election in May 2002, proved that New Orleanians were looking for the city’s leadership to take bold new steps to protect their future. He became the first New Orleans Mayor to rise to the post in nearly 60 years without holding a previous elected office. Ray Nagin put his career in business on hold to lead the city where he was born.

Thanks for that info. I just decided to bold an eerie statement....

He didn't do so well.

Tom'sGirl
09-04-2005, 11:20 PM
Thanks for that info. I just decided to bold an eerie statement....

He didn't do so well.
I also found this while researching New Orleans..........

Before his election, Nagin was a member of the Republican Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Republican_Party) and had little political experience; he was a vice president and general manager at Cox Communications, a cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable) communications company and subsidiary of Cox Enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox_Enterprises). Nagin did give donations periodically to candidates, namely President George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush) and former Republican U.S. Representative Billy Tauzin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tauzin) in 1999 and 2000, as well as to Democratic U.S. Senators John Breaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Breaux) and J. Bennett Johnston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bennett_Johnston) earlier in the decade.

Days before filing for the New Orleans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans) Mayoral race in February 2002, Nagin switched his party registration to the Democratic Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Democratic_Party), presumably in order to improve his chances of winning the race in heavily Democratic New Orleans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans). Shortly before the primary election, an endorsement praising Nagin as a reformer by Gambit Magazine (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gambit_Magazine&action=edit) gave him crucial momentum that would carry through for the primary election and runoff. In the first round of the crowded mayoral election in February 2002, Nagin received first place with 29% of the vote, against such opponents as Police Chief Richard Pennington (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Pennington&action=edit), State Senator Paulette Irons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulette_Irons), City Councilman Troy Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Troy_Carter&action=edit) and others. In the runoff with Pennington in May 2002, Nagin won with 59% of the vote. His campaign was largely self-financed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin)

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 11:27 PM
I also found this while researching New Orleans..........

Before his election, Nagin was a member of the Republican Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Republican_Party) and had little political experience; he was a vice president and general manager at Cox Communications, a cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable) communications company and subsidiary of Cox Enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox_Enterprises). Nagin did give donations periodically to candidates, namely President George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush) and former Republican U.S. Representative Billy Tauzin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tauzin) in 1999 and 2000, as well as to Democratic U.S. Senators John Breaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Breaux) and J. Bennett Johnston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bennett_Johnston) earlier in the decade.

Days before filing for the New Orleans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans) Mayoral race in February 2002, Nagin switched his party registration to the Democratic Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Democratic_Party), presumably in order to improve his chances of winning the race in heavily Democratic New Orleans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans). Shortly before the primary election, an endorsement praising Nagin as a reformer by Gambit Magazine (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gambit_Magazine&action=edit) gave him crucial momentum that would carry through for the primary election and runoff. In the first round of the crowded mayoral election in February 2002, Nagin received first place with 29% of the vote, against such opponents as Police Chief Richard Pennington (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Pennington&action=edit), State Senator Paulette Irons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulette_Irons), City Councilman Troy Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Troy_Carter&action=edit) and others. In the runoff with Pennington in May 2002, Nagin won with 59% of the vote. His campaign was largely self-financed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin)

So "presumably" he flip-flopped his political party to gain an edge...not one to stand on his own strengths and convictions?

Tom'sGirl
09-04-2005, 11:36 PM
So "presumably" he flip-flopped his political party to gain an edge...not one to stand on his own strengths and convictions?Just posted what I read as I thought it was interesting as I know nothing of the man, his politics or "whatever" and never even heard his name until Katrina came into the picture.

ETA: I also found this to be interesting:

Nagin also made a controversial endorsement of current Republican U.S. Representative Bobby Jindal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jindal) in the 2003 Louisiana Gubernatorial Runoff over current Democratic Governor Kathleen Blanco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Blanco)

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 11:43 PM
Just posted what I read as I thought it was interesting as I know nothing of the man, his politics or "whatever" and never even heard his name until Katrina came into the picture.



Oh, my "presumably" was in quotes because that word was used in the article. I wasn't doubting you at all! Sorry if there was confusion, LOL

Tom'sGirl
09-05-2005, 12:22 AM
Oh, my "presumably" was in quotes because that word was used in the article. I wasn't doubting you at all! Sorry if there was confusion, LOLWhew, thanks for that Deputy, I feel better now :dance:

I shouldn't post anything I guess unless I can back it up with a link UNLESS it's just my opinion.

Dark Knight
09-05-2005, 12:35 AM
(AP) In addition to the lawlessness, civilian deaths and uncertainty about their families, New Orleans' police have had to deal with suicides in their ranks. Two officers took their lives, including the department spokesman, Paul Accardo, who died Saturday, according to Riley. Both shot themselves in the head, he said.

"I've got some firefighters and police officers that have been pretty much traumatized," Mayor Ray Nagin said. "And we've already had a couple of suicides, so I am cycling them out as we speak. ... They need physical and psychological evaluations."

MrsMush99
09-05-2005, 09:47 AM
(AP) In addition to the lawlessness, civilian deaths and uncertainty about their families, New Orleans' police have had to deal with suicides in their ranks. Two officers took their lives, including the department spokesman, Paul Accardo, who died Saturday, according to Riley. Both shot themselves in the head, he said.

"I've got some firefighters and police officers that have been pretty much traumatized," Mayor Ray Nagin said. "And we've already had a couple of suicides, so I am cycling them out as we speak. ... They need physical and psychological evaluations."


So sad. I'm afraid it's probably only going to get worse. :sick:

mysteriew
09-05-2005, 11:10 AM
"Mississippi needs more coverage," Sabato said. "Until people see it on TV, they don't think it's real."

Along the battered Mississippi Gulf Coast, crews started searching boats for corpses on Saturday. Several shrimpers are believed to have died as they tried to ride out the storm aboard their boats on the Intracoastal Waterway.

"I'm going to tell you, Mississippi got hit much harder than they did, but what happened in the aftermath - it makes your stomach hurt to go miles and miles and miles and the houses are all under water up to the roof," Barbour said.

Keisha Moran has been living in a tent in a department store parking lot in Bay St. Louis with her boyfriend and three young children since the hurricane struck. She said National Guardsmen have brought her water but no other aid so far, and she was furious that it took Bush several days before he came to see the damage in Mississippi.

"It's how many days later? How many people are dead?" Moran said.

Mississippi's death toll from Hurricane Katrina stood at 144 on Saturday, according to confirmed reports from coroners and the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency. Barbour had said Friday the total was 147, but he didn't provide a county-by-county breakdown.

In a strongly worded editorial, The Sun Herald of Biloxi-Gulfport pleaded for help and questioned why a massive National Guard presence wasn't already visible.

"We understand that New Orleans also was devastated by Hurricane Katrina, but surely this nation has the resources to rescue both that metropolitan (area) and ours," the newspaper editorialized, saying survival basics like ice, gasoline and medicine have been too slow to arrive.

"We are not calling on the nation and the state to make life more comfortable in South Mississippi, we are calling on the nation and the state to make life here possible," the paper wrote.
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/breaking_news/12555987.htm

mysteriew
09-05-2005, 11:11 AM
Farmers near the area devastated by Hurricane Katrina are dumping their milk because they've run out of room to store it, even as thousands of people go hungry in the New Orleans area.

Many storage tanks are just big enough to hold two milkings, and co-ops have not been able to pick up the excess milk, said Dee Simpson, who has been dumping milk at her family's 250-acre dairy farm since Thursday.
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/breaking_news/12556496.htm

mysteriew
09-05-2005, 11:13 AM
A forecast released Friday by meteorologists at Colorado State University calls for six more hurricanes by the time the hurricane season ends on Nov. 30, three of them Category 3 or above. On average, about one major hurricane in three makes landfall in the United States.

"We expect that by the time the 2005 hurricane season is over, we will witness tropical cyclone activity at near record levels," the Colorado State meteorologists wrote.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/sep/03/090301595.html

concernedperson
09-05-2005, 02:34 PM
A swat team commander from La. was talking with Kyra Phillips earlier and mentioned he was on his way to Jefferson Parish to see about his home etc. They had been rerouted to Hwy. 61 vs. I-10 because of emergency vehicles using that expressway, lots of traffic on a 2 lane spread of highway. Anyway, they were near Lake Maurepas and thousands of fish were in the road and shoulders. Apparently the storm pushed them right out of the lake....he said the smell was absolutely the worst thing he had ever smelled. Dead fish rotting in the sun.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-05-2005, 02:39 PM
A forecast released Friday by meteorologists at Colorado State University calls for six more hurricanes by the time the hurricane season ends on Nov. 30, three of them Category 3 or above. On average, about one major hurricane in three makes landfall in the United States.

"We expect that by the time the 2005 hurricane season is over, we will witness tropical cyclone activity at near record levels," the Colorado State meteorologists wrote.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/sep/03/090301595.html

On Fox this morning, they were showing the potential storm tracks of two - one that would be of concern to the Atlantic coast, I think they said for mid-week (?), and the other a possible threat to the Gulf of Mexico, showing a track possibly hitting landfall near Houston and up through Central TX. Of course I had two thoughts: 1) oh my, since I'm in Central Tx, and the other was 2) HOUSTON with all the evaucation shelters does NOT need to be hit by a bad storm (or worse)!! And, then a third thought: since it's so far out, we all know that track could veer left or right, and if it veered to the right, back to LA, oh my goodness.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 02:41 PM
(AP) Two officers took their lives, including the department spokesman, Paul Accardo, who died Saturday, according to Riley. Both shot themselves in the head, he said.
I just spoke to my friend Penni whose son is a police officer in NO. He was friends with the officers who shot themselves and said it's just a nightmare there. He's seen so many bodies and it's getting to him -- especially all the children!! :( We don't pay these guys nearly enough. I can't imagine doing their job.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 02:50 PM
My brother retired last year from the Oklahoma City Police Dept. He worked 4 straight days after the Murrow Building Bombing. He never fully recovered from the devastation and horror. Those in Louisana and Mississippi charged with rescue and with recovering the dead will carry it with them for the rest of their lives. This is a far reaching tragedy that will not end when the job is done.

concernedperson
09-05-2005, 07:33 PM
The poor think they will be charged with a ticket to ride.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/scene.blog/index.html

mysteriew
09-06-2005, 03:03 AM
The Yves St. Laurent and Tommy Hilfiger labels may be phony, but the thousands of Hurricane Katrina victims getting knockoff items seized by federal customs officials probably don't mind.

Displaced survivors in the Houston Astrodome can choose from counterfeit and abandoned clothing, toys, and even dog food.

More than 100,000 items were quickly taken from warehouses and more will follow, said Kristi Clemens, spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security's Customs and Border Protection
division.

The agency has some 1 million items stored, and Customs officials are going through their inventory to see what else would be useful. While the initial shipment went to Texas, officials are looking toward a wider distribution, Clemens said.
http://www.wtlv.com/news/strange/news-article.aspx?storyid=43740

vanillasky
09-06-2005, 04:20 AM
I think that is fantastic that they're using those seized counterfeit items to help these people out. Very informative article, thank you!! :)

That was excellent thinking on someone's part to get those items out of storage to be used.

mysteriew
09-06-2005, 06:58 AM
President Bush conducted another partial tour of the region, though he again bypassed New Orleans.

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco has refused to sign over National Guard control to the federal government and has turned to a Clinton administration official, former Federal Emergency Management Agency chief James Lee Witt, to help run relief efforts. Snip

Blanco, a Democrat, was not informed of the timing of Bush's visit, nor was she immediately invited to meet him or travel with him. In fact, Blanco's office didn't know when Bush was coming until told by reporters.

Late yesterday, Blanco denied there was tension with Bush.

"We'd like to stop the voices out there trying to create a divide. There is no divide," she said.

New Orleans police urging people away

New Orleans Deputy Police Chief Warren Riley, in the department's first news conference since the storm, said one of the greatest current challenges is persuading thousands of remaining people to leave their homes in a city without any municipal services and no prospect of any for months.Snip

Law-enforcement caravan arrives

With almost a third of New Orleans' police force missing in action, a caravan of law-enforcement vehicles, emblazoned with emblems from across the nation and blue lights flashing, poured into the city to help establish order on the anarchic streets. Snip

Fake garments come in real handy

The Yves St. Laurent and Tommy Hilfiger labels may be phony, but the thousands of Hurricane Katrina victims getting knockoff items seized by federal customs officials probably don't mind.


Europe, Mexico sending relief aid

BRUSSELS, Belgium — European nations yesterday prepared aid teams, food rations, water pumps and even cruise ships to help U.S. regions hit by Hurricane Katrina.

Countries large and small have offered aid — from tiny Luxembourg's beds and blankets to 500,000 food rations from Germany and Britain.

Greece put on standby two cruise ships to house refugees, and Sweden has offered aircraft to help distribute aid shipments.

Norway was offering navy divers as well as 10,000 blankets. Latvia and France were preparing to send disaster-relief teams.

A Mexican ship loaded with supplies set sail yesterday from the Gulf Coast port of Tampico, and the country has set up consular offices in trailers around the disaster zone to help some of the estimated 140,000 Mexicans who live in the region.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002474644_katnotes06.html

mysteriew
09-06-2005, 11:24 AM
Patricia Sauerwein is a paramedic who went to the Crescent City for a convention. Her husband, Roger, a Colerain township firefighter, went with her.

The Canal Street Hilton they were staying in had more than 4,000 people inside at one point after Hurricane Katrina made landfall. The hotel is also connected to the Convention Center, where the many graphic scenes of violence and despair shown in national media were filmed.

But the Sauerweins helped make life a little easier for some of the suffering hurricane victims, helping to set up a makeshift hallway hospital on the fifth floor of the hotel.

"We had seizure patients, we had diabetic emergencies, minor injuries, heart failures, heart attacks," Patricia Sauerwein said.

They said they got help from firefighters, police and the National Guard. But they said FEMA was nowhere to be found.

"There were times I didn't think we would get home," Patricia Sauerwein said. "Destruction all over the place. We even had some shootings at our hotel."

The hotel arranged for two dozen buses. They evacuated 650 people in 45 minutes, at about 2:30 a.m.

"We were told no flashes, no lights," Roger Sauerwein said. "Buses were dark. There were still no street lights when we left."

Patricia Sauerwein said the precautions were in place so that the evacuees wouldn't draw attention to their buses.
http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4930668/detail.html

concernedperson
09-06-2005, 01:25 PM
CNN reporting that authorities have found e. coli in the water in New Orleans. Also that reporters are coming down with eye infections, cuts and mosquito bites.

concernedperson
09-06-2005, 02:42 PM
New Orleans' fouled water going into river, lake.

Priority of pumping out the city means no chance of cleaning water first.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9227493/

kgeaux
09-06-2005, 03:34 PM
New Orleans' fouled water going into river, lake.

Priority of pumping out the city means no chance of cleaning water first.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9227493/


Poor ecology. I dread thinking of what this is going to do to the lake and the gulf.....all those chemicals! I know they don't have time to do anything else, but this is going to have a "forever" effect on our eco-system.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-06-2005, 03:54 PM
Poor ecology. I dread thinking of what this is going to do to the lake and the gulf.....all those chemicals! I know they don't have time to do anything else, but this is going to have a "forever" effect on our eco-system.

I feel for you, who lives down there, and yes, everyone else as well, as you're right, the effect on the eco-system. Sad.

marrigotti
09-06-2005, 04:08 PM
I read somewhere earlier today that they expect many fish to die...sounds like there may be a shortage of the wonderful seafood for which New Orleans is so famous.

concernedperson
09-06-2005, 06:22 PM
I don't want to be a cynic but I would be negligent if I didn't point out that with this new contamination of the lower Mississippi and ultimately the Gulf of Mexico, we need to be very careful about eating seafood.Many foods at the supermarkets don't address the origin of the seafood. We all know that people will try to captilize and many fisheries have indigent workers without the language skills nor the understanding to know where the seafood comes from.

If you catch the seafood yourself in a nice clean lake.....go for it. But in the interim be circumspect about this potentially disastrous situation.

I have some frozen shrimp from before the hurricane that I will totally enjoy as that will be it for me for awhile.

concernedperson
09-06-2005, 07:02 PM
Wow, CNN just reporting that the Super Dome will have to be torn down. Too much damage. On Anderson Cooper 360.

shopper
09-06-2005, 07:07 PM
I read somewhere earlier today that they expect many fish to die...sounds like there may be a shortage of the wonderful seafood for which New Orleans is so famous.


And those of us in Mississippi depend on seafood too, I can't go a week without it!

mysteriew
09-07-2005, 01:15 AM
I have been hearing reports today that they are now fearing fires and explosions in NO. Due to the oil in the water, combining with the gas spills from the service stations and the broken gas lines. There are some electric lines that still have power, and with the residents that stayed- they seem to be very concerned.
That would be so horrible. To be down there, survive the hurricane, survive the flood, and then die in an explosion.

mysteriew
09-07-2005, 01:16 AM
One week ago, Lia Mittelstadt was a long way from her hometown of Randolph, Wisconsin. She was in the middle of a nightmare.

Lia, her seven-year-old daughter Cassidy, and two-year-old daughter Mackenzie were on vacation in New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina hit. They ended up trapped at the chaotic Superdome with thousands of other evacuees.

"There was so much violence, so much murder, so much rape, so much looting... I still smell dead people, but there's no dead people here," says Mittelstadt.

The place that was supposed to be a sanctuary after the storm, turned out to be a living hell for Mittelstadt and her girls. "People just went crazy trying to get food to feed their kids. It was just unbelievable."
http://nbc15.madison.com/news/headlines/1819162.html

Details
09-07-2005, 01:30 AM
Wow, CNN just reporting that the Super Dome will have to be torn down. Too much damage. On Anderson Cooper 360.I can't imagine how they could decontaminate it, if that were the only damage done to it.


I've read a report that the mayor is planning on doing forced evacuations - I think that's the only choice there. Some people don't seem to believe in invisible dangers, like e.coli bacteria and explosive gas fumes until it's too late.

mysteriew
09-07-2005, 01:45 AM
I can't imagine how they could decontaminate it, if that were the only damage done to it.


I've read a report that the mayor is planning on doing forced evacuations - I think that's the only choice there. Some people don't seem to believe in invisible dangers, like e.coli bacteria and explosive gas fumes until it's too late.

Many of them didn't believe that hurricanes could kill or the levee could break and flood the city either. I wonder what it will take to convince them?

KrazyKollector
09-07-2005, 02:49 AM
Poor ecology. I dread thinking of what this is going to do to the lake and the gulf.....all those chemicals! I know they don't have time to do anything else, but this is going to have a "forever" effect on our eco-system.It's going to be horrible. Between the direct dumping and the leeching, the area is not going to ever be close to normal. At least not for decades.

MrsMush99
09-07-2005, 07:26 AM
Just heard on FoxNews that the mayor of NO authorized forced evacuations if necessary.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168644,00.html

less0305
09-07-2005, 07:46 AM
Just heard on FoxNews that the mayor of NO authorized forced evacuations if necessary.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168644,00.html

I think this is going to cause a major problem and more criticisms. Just as soon as a national guardsman has to forcibly remove an elderly woman or man from their home, with a news camera covering the entire thing, who will catch the heat.....the national guard and the government - again. But that's just my own personal thinking. I hope and pray it goes smoothly and there isn't any real force used. I'll put that on my prayer list - Please, help people understand it isn't safe or productive to stay in the city at this particular time and take help out for right now.

MrsMush99
09-07-2005, 08:20 AM
My hope is, is that they will tell them, Look if you don't want to come out, we're going to have force you, please don't make us do that, and then they will go willingly. That's my hope anyway, I figure that's not going to happen much.

amandab
09-07-2005, 08:34 AM
I think they should do what has been done in other places in the past when it comes to evacuations. Go door to door telling people they have to leave, and if they refuse, give them a permanent marker to write their ss#'s on themselves so they can be identified.

MrsMush99
09-07-2005, 09:03 AM
I think they should do what has been done in other places in the past when it comes to evacuations. Go door to door telling people they have to leave, and if they refuse, give them a permanent marker to write their ss#'s on themselves so they can be identified.
Oh that's a good idea. That might scare them enough to make them leave.

concernedperson
09-07-2005, 10:22 AM
CNN reporting that FEMA contacted Charleston, SC officials and informed them that a plane with 155 people was on the way.All needed medical help. Charleston scrambled to get ambulances, medics, doctors and nurses etc. to the airport. They waited and waited. The plane never arrived.

Recent screw ups....within the last 24 hours. We don't have to go back very far.

Dara
09-07-2005, 10:26 AM
CNN reporting that FEMA contacted Charleston, SC officials and informed them that a plane with 155 people was on the way.All needed medical help. Charleston scrambled to get ambulances, medics, doctors and nurses etc. to the airport. They waited and waited. The plane never arrived.

Recent screw ups....within the last 24 hours. We don't have to go back very far.
It's terrible to read. There are so many stories like this. And it begs the question: who is in charge? Are Chertoff and Brown, widely decried as having made grave errors, still in place?

I know things are better, but there are still so many stories like this. Far too many.

Mabel
09-07-2005, 10:30 AM
CNN reporting that FEMA contacted Charleston, SC officials and informed them that a plane with 155 people was on the way.All needed medical help. Charleston scrambled to get ambulances, medics, doctors and nurses etc. to the airport. They waited and waited. The plane never arrived.

Recent screw ups....within the last 24 hours. We don't have to go back very far.

The evacuees that were expected in Charleston, SC ended up in Charleston, WV...it's happened twice so far. 300 evacuees that Michigan prepared for yesterday were also sent someplace else. It's a good thing donations are pouring in with as much money as is being wasted on mistakes.

Dara
09-07-2005, 10:35 AM
As I posted in another thread, CNN reported that Chertoff went into a meeting on Capitol Hill last night and said conditions in the SuperDome weren't as bad as reported. Now, in the other thread, that generated a "Well, the MAYOR put them there," which is, you know, a point that should be considered, however I am more concerned for people still not getting help while the head guy is downplaying and spinning.

If the focus, or one focus, of the higher ups is on PR and CYA, this is what you get.

Yeah, let's not play the blame game. Let's play the "we're blameless" game.

MrsMush99
09-07-2005, 10:37 AM
Just in on FoxNews, Forced Evacuations will begin today.

Dark Knight
09-07-2005, 01:16 PM
As I posted in another thread, CNN reported that Chertoff went into a meeting on Capitol Hill last night and said conditions in the SuperDome weren't as bad as reported. Now, in the other thread, that generated a "Well, the MAYOR put them there," which is, you know, a point that should be considered, however I am more concerned for people still not getting help while the head guy is downplaying and spinning.

If the focus, or one focus, of the higher ups is on PR and CYA, this is what you get.

Yeah, let's not play the blame game. Let's play the "we're blameless" game.
Yeah, it was so "not that bad" that they will have to tear down the Superdome. :doh:

amandab
09-07-2005, 01:29 PM
I'm sorry if I missed it in all of the news, but whatever became of the people trapped in Charity Hospital? I heard they were being evacuated, then not, then evacuated, then not b/c people were shooting at them.....

marrigotti
09-07-2005, 01:35 PM
Yeah, it was so "not that bad" that they will have to tear down the Superdome. :doh:

Didn't the hurricane seriously damage the roof of the Superdome?

cynder
09-07-2005, 01:43 PM
Are they going to arrange for them to take their pets with them? How about their personal belongings? If they own a business? One with valuable inventory? Are they going to bring in moving trucks for them? Can they guarantee that their home or business will still be there when they return? Are they going to give them the information on the condition of their home? The current status? Help them file insurance on a home or business they cannot obtain a status on? Is every building in NO going to just be automatically declared a total loss?
A mandatory forced evacuation just sounds so simple doesn't it? But there are numerous obstacles - for instance I wouldn't leave without my pets, no way and it's obvious that there has thus far been little done to resolve this issue....just one of hundreds of unresolved issues that no solutions have been forthcoming for.
Where is the leadership? Where are the great minds and the legendary innovative American ingenuity? It's as if the entire country has been instantly paralyzed by indecision and red tape.
Please oh please, somewhere there must be one person (or a cohesive group of people) who can step forward and break this log jam. We need a polarizing force to unite behind.

less0305
09-07-2005, 03:50 PM
I'm sorry if I missed it in all of the news, but whatever became of the people trapped in Charity Hospital? I heard they were being evacuated, then not, then evacuated, then not b/c people were shooting at them.....

I'm pretty sure they said everyone has been evacuated from all hospitals.

less0305
09-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Are they going to arrange for them to take their pets with them? How about their personal belongings? If they own a business? One with valuable inventory? Are they going to bring in moving trucks for them? Can they guarantee that their home or business will still be there when they return? Are they going to give them the information on the condition of their home? The current status? Help them file insurance on a home or business they cannot obtain a status on? Is every building in NO going to just be automatically declared a total loss?
A mandatory forced evacuation just sounds so simple doesn't it? But there are numerous obstacles - for instance I wouldn't leave without my pets, no way and it's obvious that there has thus far been little done to resolve this issue....just one of hundreds of unresolved issues that no solutions have been forthcoming for.
Where is the leadership? Where are the great minds and the legendary innovative American ingenuity? It's as if the entire country has been instantly paralyzed by indecision and red tape.
Please oh please, somewhere there must be one person (or a cohesive group of people) who can step forward and break this log jam. We need a polarizing force to unite behind.

Dunno....the mayor called that shot. I don't imagine he has much of a plan as far as we've seen.

Details
09-07-2005, 04:01 PM
I think this is going to cause a major problem and more criticisms. Just as soon as a national guardsman has to forcibly remove an elderly woman or man from their home, with a news camera covering the entire thing, who will catch the heat.....the national guard and the government - again. But that's just my own personal thinking. I hope and pray it goes smoothly and there isn't any real force used. I'll put that on my prayer list - Please, help people understand it isn't safe or productive to stay in the city at this particular time and take help out for right now.Someone will resist, and I'm sure a news camera will cover it. Hopefully the general public can think with their heads and not their emotions, and realize that as unpleasant as it is, it's necessary to evacuate the city, and that this person made the choice about the method used. They could have gone peacefully.

less0305
09-07-2005, 04:20 PM
You really have to hand it to anyone who is working as hard as they can....24/7 in mass confusion without working communications, without rest, without the essentials of daily living and willing to continue your job and then make a mistake like filling out a paper for someone to go to WV and what someone else meant was SC. What clerk or pilot or traffic controller could withstand the public hanging they would get if they made a mistake? If I were the clerical person or pilot that put down the wrong info or made a mistake.... Well, God bless them because if anyone makes a mistake I guess people want a public lynching. I'm guilty of criticizing the Mayor and the Governor... Honestly, now I'm rethinking having dealt out one single piece of criticism. No one on this earth is above making a mistake. I'm just so saddened and feel true shame now and truly sick to my stomach that I've been so critical.

less0305
09-07-2005, 04:22 PM
Someone will resist, and I'm sure a news camera will cover it. Hopefully the general public can think with their heads and not their emotions, and realize that as unpleasant as it is, it's necessary to evacuate the city, and that this person made the choice about the method used. They could have gone peacefully.


Oh, I just heard the Governor say that she has not signed any orders for anyone to be forcibly evacuated. She says the Mayor can't do it without her consent and she's not issuing that mandate right now.

Ntegrity
09-07-2005, 04:26 PM
Oh, I just heard the Governor say that she has not signed any orders for anyone to be forcibly evacuated. She says the Mayor can't do it without her consent and she's not issuing that mandate right now.
They're dealing with voluntary evacuations first and will deal with the reluctant ones later. Hopefully by then they'll agree to go without a fuss.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-07-2005, 04:29 PM
Oh, I just heard the Governor say that she has not signed any orders for anyone to be forcibly evacuated. She says the Mayor can't do it without her consent and she's not issuing that mandate right now.

So are we still at the point where the Mayor says yes, she says no? Do they not have AT LEAST one daily briefing of oh, I dunno, important things like whether to make mandatory evacutation, "mandatory?" :banghead:

less0305
09-07-2005, 04:36 PM
So are we still at the point where the Mayor says yes, she says no? Do they not have AT LEAST one daily briefing of oh, I dunno, important things like whether to make mandatory evacutation, "mandatory?" :banghead:
She was asked if they were on the same page....she said she thinks he's still working off the mandatory order that came out Sunday and the fact that that order hasn't been rescinded, so she thinks that at this time it would be better to still try to convince people to leave.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-07-2005, 04:40 PM
She was asked if they were on the same page....she said she thinks he's still working off the mandatory order that came out Sunday and the fact that that order hasn't been rescinded, so she thinks that at this time it would be better to still try to convince people to leave.


"She thinks?" How 'bout we have one of the media hounds go 'round him up, bring him to her, or call her (if the phones are connecting at the time) and have her, as GOVERNOR, actually ask him!

Details
09-07-2005, 04:51 PM
She was asked if they were on the same page....she said she thinks he's still working off the mandatory order that came out Sunday and the fact that that order hasn't been rescinded, so she thinks that at this time it would be better to still try to convince people to leave.What the heck is wrong with her?!!! I think she's paralyzed, too afraid to make decisions for fear of criticism. She should resign.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-07-2005, 05:05 PM
What the heck is wrong with her?!!! I think she's paralyzed, too afraid to make decisions for fear of criticism. She should resign.

I wonder how effective the Lt. Governor would be? Sometimes they know more of the detail of the true happenings...more "hands on," so to speak.

Can't be much worse, is my guess.

Details
09-08-2005, 12:31 AM
<sigh> Really, what is wrong with these people! The stepped-up evacuation came as workers trying to get into the city to restart essential services came under sniper fire. More than 100 officers and seven armored personnel carriers captured a suspect in a housing project who had been firing on workers trying to restore cell phone towers, authorities said.

“These cell teams are getting fire on almost a daily basis, so we needed to get in here and clean this thing up,” said Capt. Jeff Winn, commander of the police SWAT team. “We’re putting a lot of people on the street right now and I think that we are bringing it under control. Eight days ago this was a mess. Every day is getting a little bit better.” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/

That's why they have to have a mandatory evacuation - most of the people remaining behind are good people who just hate to leave home... but some of them are these nutcases and thugs that make it impossible to fix the city.

Paradise
09-25-2005, 05:58 PM
I hadn't been on the ncmec site lately and I'm glad to see that most of the missing/children looking for parents cases have been resolved.

FACE-IT
09-25-2005, 06:08 PM
I hadn't been on the ncmec site lately and I'm glad to see that most of the missing/children looking for parents cases have been resolved.Paradise, can you post the link to the ncmec website--Thanks.

mysteriew
09-25-2005, 06:54 PM
Because people have become frustrated over using the many Internet lists of missing persons in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Bill Wolcott decided to do something to help consolidate all the information.

180+ volunteers are helping him upload pictures of missing persons and catgorize information. Born on September 1, 2005, his website Photofreeway offers those looking for displaced and lost people a place to upload pictures and/or text, see a listing of shelters, and do a mega search of all online missing persons' websites with one click.
http://www.joplinindependent.com/display_article.php/hpaxton1127533405

mysteriew
09-25-2005, 06:56 PM
Paradise, can you post the link to the ncmec website--Thanks.

http://www.missingkids.com/

mysteriew
09-26-2005, 06:50 AM
To most folks, the mountains of rubble along U.S. 90 look the same. But Deborah Johnson knows what the splintered boards, ruined furniture and tumbled bricks once were.

"That was a pawn shop. That was a waffle shop," she says, pointing over the steering wheel, then pulling out of the parking lot of the Edgewater Inn. "And this is the only hotel left on the beach."

Johnson, 42, has delivered the mail in Biloxi for 12 years. Since Hurricane Katrina, though, some of her route is barely recognizable. The postal worker lost at least 200 of 1,100 customers.

Near the Edgewater sits a battered barge decked out like a pirate ship, the skeletal remains of Treasure Bay casino. A half-mile away, on the wrong side of the road, sits The President casino.

But it's the ancient oaks that really get to her.

"You look at the trees and you see everybody's clothes," Johnson says. "It just gives me chills."

Especially the purple clothes, a color favored by one of her elderly customers. Johnson does not know what became of her.
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/12740421.htm