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Linda7NJ
09-02-2005, 01:47 AM
If the majority were affluent & white :confused:

CyberLaw
09-02-2005, 02:05 AM
In my opinion, I have no doubt that this would be a whole different response.

Dark Knight
09-02-2005, 02:29 AM
What's scary is that I was thinking the exact same thing. And I'm not one to ever play the "race card!" But it certainly crossed my mind. *sighs*

mysteriew
09-02-2005, 02:46 AM
I thought this was an interesting quote:

"We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."
http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=101563

Olivia77
09-02-2005, 03:05 AM
I thought this was an interesting quote:

http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=101563

Rapes, beatings? This situation is beyond comprehension. And the part of the story where the little boy had to leave behind his dog Snowball and cried until he vomited? I'm in tears.

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 03:29 AM
I for one was very surprised to see the large amount of Afro Americans involved in this tragedy. It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to help.

I am very sadden by the amount of looting, crime, etc. I think those people commiting these crimes have done that for years not just in the event of the hurricane. Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.

pardilia
09-02-2005, 04:27 AM
The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.
How on EARTH can you say that?!

You're not there - those people do NOT have FOOD or WATER. The stores are closed - there's no electricity for people to purchase the food or the water they need. They have to get it somehow.

It's not like they're just stealing to steal - they're stealing to *survive*. So many people have lost so much...they're taking what they can - food, water, electronics they can use to sell/trade to get more help for themselves.

The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.

A portion of our country is practically the equivalent of a Third World nation right now. No one in power has said "Those people need help - let's get whatever aid to them NOW and we'll figure out the paperwork later." It's been controlled by idiotic bureaucracy. It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.

Yes, that's correct. We're sending people in to guard the buildings and prevent the looting and not sending in FOOD, WATER, or CLOTHES.

It's just disgusting...and it really scares me that such a thing can happen in our country. The way things have been going, though, I really shouldn't be surprised.

poco
09-02-2005, 05:06 AM
Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

BINGO - Large cities vulnerable to this type of tragedy need to make up plans of actions BEFORE these disasters hit - not after! Maybe some of them will take heed to this and do so before another major city finds themselves in this type of situation.

Dark Knight
09-02-2005, 05:54 AM
How on EARTH can you say that?!

You're not there - those people do NOT have FOOD or WATER. The stores are closed - there's no electricity for people to purchase the food or the water they need. They have to get it somehow.

It's not like they're just stealing to steal - they're stealing to *survive*. So many people have lost so much...they're taking what they can - food, water, electronics they can use to sell/trade to get more help for themselves.

The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.

A portion of our country is practically the equivalent of a Third World nation right now. No one in power has said "Those people need help - let's get whatever aid to them NOW and we'll figure out the paperwork later." It's been controlled by idiotic bureaucracy. It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.

Yes, that's correct. We're sending people in to guard the buildings and prevent the looting and not sending in FOOD, WATER, or CLOTHES.

It's just disgusting...and it really scares me that such a thing can happen in our country. The way things have been going, though, I really shouldn't be surprised.
Yeah, those people who are stealing electronics and more shoes than they need and who are raping women are just trying to survive. :doh:

kgeaux
09-02-2005, 07:08 AM
Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

BINGO - Large cities vulnerable to this type of tragedy need to make up plans of actions BEFORE these disasters hit - not after! Maybe some of them will take heed to this and do so before another major city finds themselves in this type of situation.

There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn thugs with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?

kgeaux
09-02-2005, 07:14 AM
[QUOTE=pardilia]
The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.
QUOTE]

First of all, New Orleans is surround by incredibly affluent, porcelain white suburbs. It's not all black.

Secondly, there is a BIG flaw in your theory. New Orleans is a MAJOR PORT. It is INCREDIBLY important to the oil and gas industry. The entire country is taking a big, big hit financially because of the destruction of New Orleans. Have you seen gas stations closing down because there is no more gas in the pumps? Heard the stories of the rising prices of gas? (By the way, we aint seen nothing yet, guys.)

The sooner those who are stranded in New Orleans are evacuated, the sooner the cleanup can begin and the sooner that port is back online. Major, major financial reason to get it done as quickly as possible.

Dark Knight
09-02-2005, 07:59 AM
[QUOTE=pardilia]
The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.
QUOTE]

First of all, New Orleans is surround by incredibly affluent, porcelain white suburbs. It's not all black.

Secondly, there is a BIG flaw in your theory. New Orleans is a MAJOR PORT. It is INCREDIBLY important to the oil and gas industry. The entire country is taking a big, big hit financially because of the destruction of New Orleans. Have you seen gas stations closing down because there is no more gas in the pumps? Heard the stories of the rising prices of gas? (By the way, we aint seen nothing yet, guys.)

The sooner those who are stranded in New Orleans are evacuated, the sooner the cleanup can begin and the sooner that port is back online. Major, major financial reason to get it done as quickly as possible.
Oh, they'll do everything they can to get their financial port open, but it's obvious from the pictures that the majority of refugees (the PEOPLE) are poor and black. And the black mayor is on record as saying he is, quote, "pissed" about the lack of response from the federal government, among others. He can only do so much. I notice they don't seem to have quite the same issues in the white, casino laden coastal towns in Mississippi that were devastated. Where are THEIR refugees and lawlessness?

Dara
09-02-2005, 08:39 AM
I am also the last person to drop the race card, but I've been thinking for days that the response would have been different if the demographics of the victims were different as well. Jim Cafferty on CNN called it the elephant in the room yesterday.

I dont think we can assume all those who stayed behind chose to. I know we're being told that buses went to every neighborhood and someone knocked on every door. I just don't know if I believe it. In other threads, posters have shared information about why some people didn't or couldn't leave, and it wasn't just to "ride out the storm." When I saw how many people stayed, I couldn't believe they all justchose to stay. The number just seems too high. I hope we find out the truth later.

kgeaux
09-02-2005, 08:43 AM
Oh, they'll do everything they can to get their financial port open, but it's obvious from the pictures that the majority of refugees (the PEOPLE) are poor and black. And the black mayor is on record as saying he is, quote, "pissed" about the lack of response from the federal government, among others. He can only do so much. I notice they don't seem to have quite the same issues in the white, casino laden coastal towns in Mississippi that were devastated. Where are THEIR refugees and lawlessness?


The damage is so different, dark knight. Mississippi has the same damage to buildings but they don't have the flooding. They don't have the roadways that have fallen into the water. I don't want to seem like the MS, AL damage aren't devastating because they are....but NO is complicated by the flooding.

I think the lawlessness has complicated the rescue efforts to an incredible degree. I heard on Fox this morning that NO cops are turning in their badges because it's just too dangerous, they are being shot at by the very people they are trying to help. Rumor has it that Kathleen Blanco is considering a "shoot to kill" order, and I'm all for it. If they can remove the thugs from the picture, things will improve dramatically.

jannuncutt
09-02-2005, 08:44 AM
I for one was very surprised to see the large amount of Afro Americans involved in this tragedy. It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to help.

I am very sadden by the amount of looting, crime, etc. I think those people commiting these crimes have done that for years not just in the event of the hurricane. Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans. ...............you are truly "Beyond Belief"! :sick:

Melissa Marshall
09-02-2005, 08:46 AM
I agree that these poor people should be able to take whatever they need to survive. Looters who are stealing food, shoes and diapers should not be held accountable for their actions. As long as you are taking it because you need it not because you always wanted it. The sad thing is 9 people have been shot and killed for looting. Are the material objects more important than their lives? I think not. I wont even bother to address the racial comment except to say that it is ignorant :rolleyes:. I believe the help did not get there soon enough but to blame race is moronic.

Dara
09-02-2005, 08:55 AM
Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. I had to look to see when this was posted. You don't think things are out of control. People, including babies, have died of dehydration. People are being raped, robbed. Rescuers are being fired on.


Money will be coming their way that we know for sure. Do you mean that they will get assistance? After losing everything, maybe even loved ones? They probably will get money. I hope my donations make it to them.


No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. Yeah, those pesky people demanding food and water, and protection from harm. If people didn't stay behind voluntarily, would you be ok with saving them? Like hospital workers and those who maybe didn't see a bus come by and have no car. Maybe the woman photographed next to her dead husband, who had lung cancer and couldn't be moved, so she stayed behind with him. Can she get a bottle or water or is that too great a demand? I say let's save them all, and the horrors they endured can be their punishment IF they chose to stay.


The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.
I guess there are a few lowlife there. I don't count among them those who are taking food and water from stores. The rapists and shooters, yep, they're lowlives. But not those who are trying to stay alive. You say "relief should be there." I think at this point to you "relief" is an abstract concept. Your belly isn't empty. Your child isn't near death from lack of water. Your clothes aren't sticking to you, possibly chafing your skin raw from filth and sweat. You aren't trying not to vomit from the stench of dead bodies.

Here's something (http://o-dub.com/images/looter.jpg) some might find interesting. Note the different captions, and note the different race of the people in the pictures.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 08:56 AM
There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn thugs with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?

I agree. If you really think about it, A LOT has been done in just 4 days! Not enough, clearly, but let's realize we are talking thousands and thousands of people. As someone at work said yesterday (and I posted it, but I think it's worth repeating, IMO) - "This is the first time we've tried to relocate an ENTIRE municipality."

People interviewed that said a lot of people didn't have the means to leave, but a lot didn't leave because they're "sentimental." Not my word, but from a guy from down there. Heck, I'm sentimental, but won't lose my life or my family's life due to being sentimental. It's disheartening to me that people who have never been through an emergency/disaster can talk about what all needs to be done. I hate to see the finger-pointing now - get the people taken care of (in flocks of 25,000! at a time) and we can all have the next 5-10 years to analyze what went wrong and where. It'll be analyzed and debated for years to come. I also can't blame Bush or even Clinton if ya wanna go back further. This has been years of mismanagement, I guess.

And no, I do not think race has much of anything to do with it. Maybe the enormity of the poverty, and lack of means to evacuate, may have been underestimated; but other than that, no, I don't think there was a layer of government (local, state or federal) that sat back and decided we won't plan accordingly because of race. JMHO.

There was an African American male on Fox this morning, being interviewed after he and his family had been transported to the AstroDome, but turned away because it's full. He sounded disgusted with what "my own people" are doing. His words, not mine. He said now was the time to step up and be a real man. God bless him and his wife and I think it was 2 small kids with him. I hope he's one that is being sent to Reliant Stadium.

Lesleegp
09-02-2005, 08:58 AM
There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn thugs with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?

Excellent post. Playing the "race card" makes me SICK! This is NOT racial, this is NOT political. It's crap like that that keeps the pot stirred all the time.

Dara
09-02-2005, 09:07 AM
I hate to see the finger-pointing now - get the people taken care of (in flocks of 25,000! at a time) and we can all have the next 5-10 years to analyze what went wrong and where.

Yesterday morning, I saw the White House spokesperson telling us all things weren't that bad. He was spinning like a top. Little was being done, and more absolutely could have. Let's leave aside the question of if people should or shouldn't have left and think for a minute if this were the result of an unanticipated disaster. We'd expect, and we should expect, that we'd have gotten troops there, we'd have moved faster and done more. We get there when it's halfway around the world, but not in our own country.

Back to the sugarcoating--the White House spokesperson did it, and while he was doing it, children were dying. Then CNN (and maybe others) started showing bodies and reporting on the true conditions. The head of FEMA said he didn't know of any "unrest" yesterday afternoon, but most of the rest of us did. And we became outraged and desperate for those in LA. And imo that's finally what got the ball rolling. If not for media attention and public outcry, I'm not sure the response would be even the inadequate one we're getting today.

So you wait to talk about it and you call our concerns "fingerpointing" but without it, I wonder if we'd be seeing a more feeble response today.

BTW, people always stay behind. They always do. This isn't a surprise. We should have done more.

txsvicki
09-02-2005, 09:14 AM
How on EARTH can you say that?!

You're not there - those people do NOT have FOOD or WATER. The stores are closed - there's no electricity for people to purchase the food or the water they need. They have to get it somehow.

It's not like they're just stealing to steal - they're stealing to *survive*. So many people have lost so much...they're taking what they can - food, water, electronics they can use to sell/trade to get more help for themselves.

The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.

A portion of our country is practically the equivalent of a Third World nation right now. No one in power has said "Those people need help - let's get whatever aid to them NOW and we'll figure out the paperwork later." It's been controlled by idiotic bureaucracy. It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.

Yes, that's correct. We're sending people in to guard the buildings and prevent the looting and not sending in FOOD, WATER, or CLOTHES.

It's just disgusting...and it really scares me that such a thing can happen in our country. The way things have been going, though, I really shouldn't be surprised.


I agree! The biggest majority of New Orleans are not looting and carrying off televisions and guns , but food or necessitites if even doing it at all. Anyone would resort to this instead of watching their babies lay there and die. They said that thousands of the guard are being sent in and I kept waiting to see if they will each be carrying as much water and they can carry to the victims. Also, many many of these people who did not leave could not leave. It was the end of the month. Social security and disability checks don't come out til the first of the month. There was no money for a tank of gas to get out of town before the storm. What needs to be asked, is why that the gov't didn't repair that levee years ago. This is all a disgrace and the rich, not just white, but the rich would not be treated this way. Poorer white people don't get much better treatment and I just hope that these people can actually get medical treatment once the ones who don't lay there and die of thirst get out and need help with dysentary, infections, etc. Good luck to the ones in texas with medical help.

accordn2me
09-02-2005, 09:16 AM
Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.
BB,

Your sentiments are well taken but they show your lack of understanding about the situation. As for those who did not evacuate, remember hurricane Ivan, much of NOLA evacuated - 3 elderly people died from that - and what happened - sunny weather, blue skies, not a drop of rain! Evacuation costs can break a family living from check to check.

For many of those you see on TV, no two hour drive is "simple." Even if they did have vehicles, gas would be unaffordable for a one-way 2 hour drive to where?

Had busses, planes or the Amtrack train service been available to these people, where would they have been taken?


The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.
Not everyone has or is welcome by extended family. I would venture to say the extended families of these victims are struggling to survive on a daily basis just as these were before the storm.


No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.
God help us all! This is not a localized problem. The reprecussions will be felt nationwide. I see many in small communities in Louisiana and Texas that are opening their doors and providing the victims shelter and the other basic necessities. Many more need to consider doing the same. But like you said, who wants to be found "among the lowlife of New Orleans."

It takes a lot of courage and faith to open your home to a stranger not knowing how long they will be in need. There are no simple answers to this.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 09:33 AM
So you wait to talk about it and you call our concerns "fingerpointing" but without it, I wonder if we'd be seeing a more feeble response today.

BTW, people always stay behind. They always do. This isn't a surprise. We should have done more.


Yes, guess I have a different personality - get in there, get 'er done, then do the post-analysis. I also didn't say I'm angered at some of the political spinning I may hear; but I would expect it on both Rep and Dem sides, so I'm not even going there. :banghead:

Yes, people stay behind - NEVER to this extreme. And as others have said, in Asia the people worked together to save as many as possible; IMO that's not the case down in NO, for whatever reason. And yes, I agree, more should have been done. But look at the good that has been done. Oh wait, a lot of that isn't covered on the media...

IMO :truce:

Dara
09-02-2005, 09:45 AM
Yes, guess I have a different personality - get in there, get 'er done, then do the post-analysis. So, you're in there getting it done? My discussing this is somehow preventing it from "getting done?" Hell, the whole problem is I want them to get in there and get it done. Ain't happening. And that's something we need to address.

I've given money. I've written several letters, I've posted here. I'm doing what I can.

I also didn't say I'm angered at some of the political spinning I may hear; but I would expect it on both Rep and Dem sides, so I'm not even going there. :banghead: Don't. No one has to comment on everything someone says. I saw spin. I don't expect spin from anyone. I expect truth. But as you say, different personalities.


Yes, people stay behind - NEVER to this extreme. Which is why, imo, we need to look at why. When I saw the numbers of those who stayed, I asked myself why. I didn't assume they just wanted to. So, as I've been following this story, I see that some had ill relatives who could not be moved. Upthread, some other reasons have been given. But even if this were an unexpected disaster, more should have been done. They weren't prepared for even a fraction of those who stayed, even the number that could have been predicted.


And as others have said, in Asia the people worked together to save as many as possible; IMO that's not the case down in NO, for whatever reason. And yes, I agree, more should have been done. That's quite an understatement, imo, but it's something.


But look at the good that has been done. Oh wait, a lot of that isn't covered on the media... Maybe not the media you watch. CNN has shown relief efforts, but they also showed the people in need, the dead, the dying. They had to, imo, and also imo the media lit the metaphorical firecracker. They showed the pitiful, inadequate response without deeming it so. They didn't have to. When babies die and bodies are stacked up, when people are told to go to a location and then abandoned (no one's in charge there), when police officers are turning in their badges, and the National Guard won't even go into some areas, we know the response was bungled. Severely.

less0305
09-02-2005, 09:51 AM
Oh, they'll do everything they can to get their financial port open, but it's obvious from the pictures that the majority of refugees (the PEOPLE) are poor and black. And the black mayor is on record as saying he is, quote, "pissed" about the lack of response from the federal government, among others. He can only do so much. I notice they don't seem to have quite the same issues in the white, casino laden coastal towns in Mississippi that were devastated. Where are THEIR refugees and lawlessness?

Dark Knight....I preface this with "I love ya" and your posts!! But...

Biloxi isn't sitting in a soup bowl of water either. And Biloxi didn't have a superdome and convention center full of 30,000 to 40,000 people or more waiting for assistance. I think things are more difficult by the very nature of the location and geographics of NO versus Biloxi. I don't think it's comparative simply because Biloxi isn't below sea level and the populations are nowhere near the same. NO has about 500,000 people....Biloxi has about 55,000, if I read up on my facts correctly.

I still say race has nothing to do with it. I think logistics and poor planning have everything to do with it.

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 10:14 AM
It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.
HELLOOOO?? Are you kidding me? The rescuers are being shot at by armed thugs who are gang members and career criminals. They can't "GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE" until law and order is restored.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 11:10 AM
They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

I'm not being prejudiced; I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.

Linda7NJ
09-02-2005, 11:27 AM
They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

What evacuation buses??? Where were they??

My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

"People are saying part of this was "planned" WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT?

I'm not being prejudiced; You are I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

WHAT?:slap:

It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.
THUD! I am simply stunned by you're comments.

less0305
09-02-2005, 11:31 AM
I also heard reporters state that buses were sent to public housing areas PRIOR to the hurricane hit to evacuate those people to the Superdome...a lot of people would not get on those buses sent by the city at that time.

I also heard reporters state that they have understood that there were some criminal element in NO that rode out the storm to loot what they could afterwards. I'm sure they didn't think they'd be stuck with the flood waters afterwards that didn't allow them to take advantage and enjoy their loot.

I also heard the Mayor himself say this morning on radio and CNN state that there is a HUGE drug problem in NO and that these druggies are looting the pharmacies and hospitals to get their fix and hord up drugs for sales.

So I don't think Martha was wayyyyyy off in her comments.

Dara
09-02-2005, 11:42 AM
I think it's helpful to realize (and I'm sure most of us do) that not every single person stayed behind for the same reason. Not everyone wanted to stay behind and loot, though a small percent possibly did. Another percentage might have stayed behind to protect property from looters (can you imagine trying to replace everything you owned without insurance; some might feel the risk was worth it to keep their families from losing everything). Some didn't have the gas or resources to leave. Perhaps those buses that supposedly went to every street missed a few, or couldn't take someone who needed oxygen (that I heard). There are a lot of reasons. We know this happens every time a hurricane approaches. I'd like to know why so many people stayed behind, simply because I believe many didn't have a choice.

tybee204
09-02-2005, 11:47 AM
If every person had gotten on a bus WTF would NO have put them? Can you imagine if 100,000 people had been in the Superdome? It would have been truly catastrophic. 20,000 people was beyond what the Superdome could handle.

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 11:50 AM
THUD! I am simply stunned by you're comments.
And I'm stunned by your comments to Marthatex. I absolutely agree with her and don't think it makes her prejudiced to say there are differences in the culture. There are major differences between the culture I've seen on news reports and *my* culture. That's doesn't mean I consider myself better because of it. The differences are simply a fact.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it. :croc:

jannuncutt
09-02-2005, 11:52 AM
They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

I'm not being prejudiced; I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there. WHO THE HELL IS THEY! :furious:

less0305
09-02-2005, 12:13 PM
I also heard it reported that people who volunteered and took their boat out to rescue people drove up to people in flooded areas and they (volunteers)were told that they (victims) didn't want to go even now....they said, "No, we're just going to stay." So where will those people be in a week?? Trust me, you won't see them on TV saying "We turned down rescue efforts," more like, "How come nobody helped us?" What is the rationale of people who simply WON'T leave?

I feel sorry - I really do - for those that absolutely could not leave, those that have waited at the pick up points for days, those that have waded through water to get to a pick up point, those waiting on the interstates, but there are also those that refused to leave then, and refuse to leave now.

If I had a helicopter, I'd have been flying over dropping water. I'm sure no one is enforcing a no-fly zone there. Why aren't corporate America, the rich and famous, the government doing fly overs with water and food? I have yet to understand why media helicopters are flying constantly, yet there aren't any planes or helicopters flying and dropping off water and food.

LadyLuck
09-02-2005, 12:31 PM
Just catching up on all the post. I do not agree with the stealing of TVs, radios, etc. But when you have a small baby that is needing food, water, milk, I think anything is ok but killing. One thing that broke my heart was the video of them arresting the older man for stealing a car. In the car there was women, children, & babies. I am sure he did not steal the car to resell. He wanted to get them out of hell. If he took a parked car what is the real harm. If he took it from someone and hurt them that is different. They unloaded the car right there and left the women, children and babies on the street. Put the man in handcuffs. I say on the dry roads if there is a car that runs and has gas the government should take control of the cars, load up women and children and let them drive as far away from NO as they can. I do not think it is a Race factor. But in American most of the poor are Black. We need to remember this when this is over and all work together to change that.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 12:32 PM
I'll toss out something for this argument about cultural differences and the poor in NO. This, I believe is historical. NO is a very, very old city with a definite background. Let's go back to the War Between the States, slavery, imports, the French influence. The war ends and the slaves are freed, the culture of plantations change. NO is still a major port city, grown from windjammers and pirates of old to container goods coming in and going out, oil and gas, etc. Former slaves sharecrop, work menial jobs in town and slowly adjust to change. Now along comes Huey P Long, well known governor. He puts together a welfare system, builds hospitals and many are cared for at no charge. I know this for a fact, because my dad was in NO in the late twenties and thirties and was a young chemist for the state. I had heard Huey P stories many times. There have always been poor in NO and for the most part they're covered by a welfare system that most states can't comprehend. Many of the blacks there today descend from families who helped found NO. The system has been in place for almost a century now.

So, cultural differences? You bet? Ever visit a voodoo shop to get a gris gris? This is part of NO culture also. Jazz, the Blues, the fabulous food. The people. All culture indiginous to the area. It's different from where you live and where I live. History dictates a lot of your culture. Boston, Charleston, Atlanta, San Francisco, etc. Think of what you know about the cities and you'll find culture different in each one, stemming from history.

I'm not an apologist, nor an advocate, just stating what I know and what we need to keep in mind as we're arguing.

As to the violence and those who are being thwarted in rescue attempts, I wouldn't go in with a truckload of supplies if I was going to be shot and my truck hi-jacked. There are poor but law-abiding folks there who would never see these supplies because some thugs and gangs looted and stole food and water before they could get to a distribution point. So whoever posted that restoring order was not as important as rescue efforts and getting food and water in, need to think about who is not getting it and why.

fran
09-02-2005, 12:35 PM
I think the main problem is the local, state, and federal government just weren't prepared for the enormity of the situation and the undercurrent of lawlessness that would result from evacuating the city. They weren't prepared for the sheer number of people that didn't or couldn't evacuate. Some of the problem is the communications after the storm as well. There will be a lot of finger pointing later. I'm hearing this morning that further on up the chain of command, they honestly weren't aware of the vast multitude of stranded individuals in different vicinities of the city, and they also didn't know how widespread the lawlessness was.

Even today as thousands of vehicles coming to the rescue are arriving, there are still reporters saying, 'well we're not seeing any difference here.' So you see, no matter where or what they do, it's not enough for the here and now this very minute in such a wide-spread area.

Houston Tx offered to take in 25,000 people only to find out the next day that that is not even half of what was needed. There were 10's of thousands stranded on overpasses and more people being added to that number by the hour as people are still being rescued off rooftops.

A CNN reporter is deep into the city of NO right now and there are still hundreds of people hiding away in offices and buildings, afraid to come out. When they saw a truck go by that was delivering water to a LE office, the people came out from where they were and cried for "WATER!" So you see, there are still even more people to be rescued that the government isn't aware of but seen on tv.

Baton Rouge offered to take in refugees and thought they were prepared. But a doctor from there was just on and he said there are so many people with need of medical assistance they are overwhelmed.

IMO, this is such an enormous disaster, that we on the outside need to stop and wait until all is said and done. We need to learn from this horrible experience and make sure that this doesn't happen again and that all the elements impeding rescue of those really needing to be helped are addressed.

Sure we've heard all the warm fuzzy stories about disasters in other countries. We've heard how many people worked on the rescue, how many helped their 'fellow man,' yadda,yadda, yadda. That's happening here as well, we're just not focusing on that but what is wrong, not what is right. Plus, we don't know that our media was allowed unfettered access in other countries. We don't know what went on in all areas of other countries that have been affected by disasters.

You can't always believe, at first blush, everything being reported on tv either. For instance, I've just been watching on FOX where there are fires in the business district and the reporter has been going over and over how the fire dept is just standing there and watching it burn without fighting the fire because of no water pressure. Yet, just now they showed an airiel view where there are fire fighters on roofs with hoses pointed at the burning building. You see, the reporter couldn't see the people, from his view point, fighting the fire so he reported inaccurately.

JMHO
fran

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 12:40 PM
Barbara Starr w/ CNN is with General Honore in downtown NO and said 1000 troops on the way to the convention center w/ supplies. No pics yet. He is standing at a street corner directing them.....worried that people would think this is an arrest he is ordering them to have their weapons face down.

Should be an interesting scene. Hope it goes well.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 12:41 PM
I think the main problem is the local, state, and federal government just weren't prepared for the enormity of the situation and the undercurrent of lawlessness that would result from evacuating the city. They weren't prepared for the sheer number of people that didn't or couldn't evacuate. Some of the problem is the communications after the storm as well. There will be a lot of finger pointing later. I'm hearing this morning that further on up the chain of command, they honestly weren't aware of the vast multitude of stranded individuals in different vicinities of the city, and they also didn't know how widespread the lawlessness was.

Even today as thousands of vehicles coming to the rescue are arriving, there are still reporters saying, 'well we're not seeing any difference here.' So you see, no matter where or what they do, it's not enough for the here and now this very minute in such a wide-spread area.

Houston Tx offered to take in 25,000 people only to find out the next day that that is not even half of what was needed. There were 10's of thousands stranded on overpasses and more people being added to that number by the hour as people are still being rescued off rooftops.

A CNN reporter is deep into the city of NO right now and there are still hundreds of people hiding away in offices and buildings, afraid to come out. When they saw a truck go by that was delivering water to a LE office, the people came out from where they were and cried for "WATER!" So you see, there are still even more people to be rescued that the government isn't aware of but seen on tv.

Baton Rouge offered to take in refugees and thought they were prepared. But a doctor from there was just on and he said there are so many people with need of medical assistance they are overwhelmed.

IMO, this is such an enormous disaster, that we on the outside need to stop and wait until all is said and done. We need to learn from this horrible experience and make sure that this doesn't happen again and that all the elements impeding rescue of those really needing to be helped are addressed.

Sure we've heard all the warm fuzzy stories about disasters in other countries. We've heard how many people worked on the rescue, how many helped their 'fellow man,' yadda,yadda, yadda. That's happening here as well, we're just not focusing on that but what is wrong, not what is right. Plus, we don't know that our media was allowed unfettered access in other countries. We don't know what went on in all areas of other countries that have been affected by disasters.

You can't always believe, at first blush, everything being reported on tv either. For instance, I've just been watching on FOX where there are fires in the business district and the reporter has been going over and over how the fire dept is just standing there and watching it burn without fighting the fire because of no water pressure. Yet, just now they showed an airiel view where there are fire fighters on roofs with hoses pointed at the burning building. You see, the reporter couldn't see the people, from his view point, fighting the fire so he reported inaccurately.

JMHO
fran
Fran, what a good post. I'm bumping it for everyone to read again. As you said things aren't always as they seem.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 12:46 PM
And I'm stunned by your comments to Marthatex. I absolutely agree with her and don't think it makes her prejudiced to say there are differences in the culture. There are major differences between the culture I've seen on news reports and *my* culture. That's doesn't mean I consider myself better because of it. The differences are simply a fact.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it. :croc:

Look. I lived in Baton Rouge, and the blacks lived right down the street from me in shacks. So I've LIVED IT.
I thought I was trying to say I try very hard not to be prejudiced of a group. But I fully understand the culture differences.

I am a Southern Lady, but a rare old-tyme democrat. I am just trying to repeat what I'm hearing about looters and so forth. I don't mean to offend anyone; I'm calling it like it is. Like a reporter.

But as always happens to me, when I try to be honest, things get "snitty" and I get in tears and just don't want to post anymore. My blood pressure is high enough already. If y'all don't want reporting and what they're saying in the hosptials here, fine. I'll shut up.

Thank you, Ntegrity! :) (why in the world should we be fighting and picking on each other when we're just trying to figure out a horrible tragedy. Give me a break)

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 12:58 PM
Look. I lived in Baton Rouge, and the blacks lived right down the street from me in shacks. So I've LIVED IT.
I thought I was trying to say I try very hard not to be prejudiced of a group. But I fully understand the culture differences.

I am a Southern Lady, but a rare old-tyme democrat. I am just trying to repeat what I'm hearing about looters and so forth. I don't mean to offend anyone; I'm calling it like it is. Like a reporter.

But as always happens to me, when I try to be honest, things get "snitty" and I get in tears and just don't want to post anymore. My blood pressure is high enough already. If y'all don't want reporting and what they're saying in the hosptials here, fine. I'll shut up.

Thank you, Ntegrity! :) (why in the world should we be fighting and picking on each other when we're just trying to figure out a horrible tragedy. Give me a break)Don't cry Martha, I understand exactly what you are saying, right along with Ntegrity. Perhaps, they need to go google on some history sites so they can view the whole picture of the culture of the area.

ETA: I'm also a Southern Lady, as were my mother, grandmothers and those before them. Rooted deep in the culture.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 12:58 PM
But as always happens to me, when I try to be honest, things get "snitty" and I get in tears and just don't want to post anymore. My blood pressure is high enough already. If y'all don't want reporting and what they're saying in the hosptials here, fine. I'll shut up.

Thank you, Ntegrity! :) (why in the world should we be fighting and picking on each other when we're just trying to figure out a horrible tragedy. Give me a break)

I think I know how you feel Martha. You were sharing what you had heard, what you had lived. Even an opinion. We shouldn't get to where we're getting snitty at fellow WS'ers over this. That doesn't accomplish anything.
And those that were long-time poster "friends" are getting upset over other things said. It's not worth it. We all really do want what's best for those affected.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 01:01 PM
[QUOTE=less0305]I also heard reporters state that buses were sent to public housing areas PRIOR to the hurricane hit to evacuate those people to the Superdome...a lot of people would not get on those buses sent by the city at that time.

I also heard reporters state that they have understood that there were some criminal element in NO that rode out the storm to loot what they could afterwards. I'm sure they didn't think they'd be stuck with the flood waters afterwards that didn't allow them to take advantage and enjoy their loot. quote"

Well, that's what I heard too. I've been busily trying to watch CNN, get my husband on an airplane and post on websleuths. I haven't been trying to check references; I thought this was a discussion board.

Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 01:02 PM
Wow......."the blacks lived right down the street from me in shacks. So I've LIVED IT." "the blacks"
So, come up with a WS word to make it politically correct, then. We change terms constantly. History again. The "N" word was replaced by "black" and those "Afro-Americans" and "people of color" were asked to be called "black" at one point. I don't think political correctness needs to get in the way of a tragedy and trying to understand it.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:07 PM
[QUOTE=less0305]I also heard reporters state that buses were sent to public housing areas PRIOR to the hurricane hit to evacuate those people to the Superdome...a lot of people would not get on those buses sent by the city at that time.

I also heard reporters state that they have understood that there were some criminal element in NO that rode out the storm to loot what they could afterwards. I'm sure they didn't think they'd be stuck with the flood waters afterwards that didn't allow them to take advantage and enjoy their loot. quote"

Well, that's what I heard too. I've been busily trying to watch CNN, get my husband on an airplane and post on websleuths. I haven't been trying to check references; I thought this was a discussion board.

Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help. And YOU (Texans) have gone above and beyond!! Some of these people are thugs and I can think of no title that fits their behavior other than animals!! There are many people there who just want to get to a shelter and these "animals" IMO are making it so difficult! Part of me says leave the "animals" there! But, they would destroy what historical sites remain! "Animals", IMO come in many different colors. I would like to see some of these other people start knocking these people out and hog-tying them.

fran
09-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Fran, what a good post. I'm bumping it for everyone to read again. As you said things aren't always as they seem.

Thanks, BarnGoddess. :blowkiss:

I just hate to see the 'race card' coming into this now. The fact is these are fellow Americans and human beings who are in need of help now. It's been four days and they're getting desparate. I'm just glad that the powers that be have finally realized that they needed to get there THIS MINUTE and I see that today they have.

I feel so bad for those still standing out there in that hot sun, dirty, bedraggled, hungry, thirsty,........it must seem unbearable. But, it appears the calvary has arrived and things should be better by tonight.

God bless them all and I hope that they are able to finally get relief.

FJMHO
fran

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:11 PM
Obviously some people felt they could not evacuate for various reasons. I know that my family would have a very difficult time as we are experiencing severe financial problems right now and have no family to go to. We'd be hard pressed to come up with money for a hotel. We also have a house full of cats, our own and fosters, that would be very difficult to leave behind.

The people who chose to ride out the hurricane would have been okay for the most part, if the levees had held. No one predicted that. Regardless, the situation is what it is, whether these people were wrong or not is so far beyond being an issue at this point.

Tens of thousands of people who were evacuted in the buses provided were taken to shelters that were not prepared for them. That is not their fault. They went where they were told to go. There is no reasonable excuse for the fact that no food or water has been delivered there in 4 days. None.

A nurse was interviewed on CNN last night. She said they got word that some of their most critical patients were being evacuated. The hospital personnel carried the people down 9 flights of stairs using only flashlights to guide them. They put the people in a boat that was waiting. Not long afterwards the boat returned still carrying the patients. The land transportation that was supposed to meet the boat didn't show up.

The moronic director of FEMA came on next and was asked about this. He said it was just one example of how things go wrong and they have to "think on the fly". Wouldn't "thinking on the fly" mean finding other transportation for these critically ill people rather than sending them right back to the horrible situation from which they'd just been rescued?

I hope when this situation is under control, we, the people, stand up and demand answers. Our government has been working for their own interests for far too long. It's about time they begin working for us again.

Dara
09-02-2005, 01:14 PM
I just hate to see the 'race card' coming into this now.
I get what you mean, and I completely understand. The thing is, I think of the "race card" as using race as a factor in a situation when it wasn't. And I'm not sure in this case it wasn't a factor. Which is what this thread, imo, is about. I feel it's a discussion worth having. So do a lot of people, including Jim Cafferty from CNN. And a lot of columnists.

Maybe it's too soon for some people to discuss it. Maybe some just plain don't want to. But some of us do. I'd like to think we could do so civilly and without a lot of hurt feelings. Because imo a lot of things went wrong. If race was one, it shouldn't be ignored just because it's hard to talk about.

Does that make sense? Really, I don't know anymore.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:15 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: MABEL FOR PRESIDENT!!! :D You are SO right! I can't understand, if there was a mandatory evacuation, WHY there are PEOPLE still there as well. If I were a resident and felt it wouldn't get that bad or had to stay for reasons out of my control, I wouldn't think it was that serious with nursing home patients and hospital patients STILL THERE!! JMO
Obviously some people felt they could not evacuate for various reasons. I know that my family would have a very difficult time as we are experiencing severe financial problems right now and have no family to go to. We'd be hard pressed to come up with money for a hotel. We also have a house full of cats, our own and fosters, that would be very difficult to leave behind.

The people who chose to ride out the hurricane would have been okay for the most part, if the levees had held. No one predicted that. Regardless, the situation is what it is, whether these people were wrong or not is so far beyond being an issue at this point.

Tens of thousands of people who were evacuted in the buses provided were taken to shelters that were not prepared for them. That is not their fault. They went where they were told to go. There is no reasonable excuse for the fact that no food or water has been delivered there in 4 days. None.

A nurse was interviewed on CNN last night. She said they got word that some of their most critical patients were being evacuated. The hospital personnel carried the people down 9 flights of stairs using only flashlights to guide them. They put the people in a boat that was waiting. Not long afterwards the boat returned still carrying the patients. The land transportation that was supposed to meet the boat didn't show up.

The moronic director of FEMA came on next and was asked about this. He said it was just one example of how things go wrong and they have to "think on the fly". Wouldn't "thinking on the fly" mean finding other transportation for these critically ill people rather than sending them right back to the horrible situation from which they'd just been rescued?

I hope when this situation is under control, we, the people, stand up and demand answers. Our government has been working for their own interests for far too long. It's about time they begin working for us again.

Dara
09-02-2005, 01:16 PM
The moronic director of FEMA came on next and was asked about this. He said it was just one example of how things go wrong and they have to "think on the fly". Wouldn't "thinking on the fly" mean finding other transportation for these critically ill people rather than sending them right back to the horrible situation from which they'd just been rescued?
.
He's one of those I'm looking at hardest. When I heard his say yesterday afternoon that he hadn't heard of any unrest and didn't know about the people at the convention center, I kind of called "BS." I can't believe he didn't know. And if he didn't, he's still at fault for not knowing something most of us did. It's. His. Job.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:17 PM
I get what you mean, and I completely understand. The thing is, I think of the "race card" as using race as a factor in a situation when it wasn't. And I'm not sure in this case it wasn't a factor. Which is what this thread, imo, is about. I feel it's a discussion worth having. So do a lot of people, including Jim Cafferty from CNN. And a lot of columnists.

Maybe it's too soon for some people to discuss it. Maybe some just plain don't want to. But some of us do. I'd like to think we could do so civilly and without a lot of hurt feelings. Because imo a lot of things went wrong. If race was one, it shouldn't be ignored just because it's hard to talk about.

Does that make sense? Really, I don't know anymore. You're right!! IMO, it's discrimination against POOR people....and that is a shame in America! We are trying fix everyone else's problems and can't even take care of our own!

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:18 PM
The governer of NO said last night that the majority of the criminal acts are being committed by 3 gangs. These same 3 gangs have always been a problem and are taking advantage of this situation. It's a shame that their actions are reflecting on all the innocent suffering people who are simply trying to survive or keep their families alive. I would have no problem with the National Guard going in there and annihilating them.

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:21 PM
He's one of those I'm looking at hardest. When I heard his say yesterday afternoon that he hadn't heard of any unrest and didn't know about the people at the convention center, I kind of called "BS." I can't believe he didn't know. And if he didn't, he's still at fault for not knowing something most of us did. It's. His. Job.

He must not watch CNN.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:22 PM
Dara and Mabel and MANY more WS'rs...I'm making signs for your candidacies into public office. Hope you don't mind :D

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:23 PM
Dara and Mabel and MANY more WS'rs...I'm making signs for your candidacies into public office. Hope you don't mind :D

I'd be the first president of the US who used coupons to buy groceries.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 01:24 PM
He must not watch CNN.
Could this be why the FEMA director is not in charge, but Homeland Security is? Mmmmmm.......

jannuncutt
09-02-2005, 01:24 PM
So, come up with a WS word to make it politically correct, then. We change terms constantly. History again. The "N" word was replaced by "black" and those "Afro-Americans" and "people of color" were asked to be called "black" at one point. I don't think political correctness needs to get in the way of a tragedy and trying to understand it.
...........you are not understanding my post. "the blacks" implies that she lived with the entire black population in NO. She didn't

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:26 PM
The President working, handing out water, helping evacuate people...JMO. I know...I know...Secret Service would have a coronary! Those poor guys!

I see the President walking around and talking to these people that are needing water, food, etc. Why isn't someone handing them what they need to survive WHILE they're awaiting evacuation? Is that too much to ask?!!! I heard all the cameras in the background shooting pics of this moment but I would be more impressed with him helping them instead of lip service! JMO...don't hurt me!

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:27 PM
Could this be why the FEMA director is not in charge, but Homeland Security is? Mmmmmm.......

I don't believe anyone is in charge right now, which is what the mayor said 3 days ago.

jannuncutt
09-02-2005, 01:27 PM
So, come up with a WS word to make it politically correct, then. We change terms constantly. History again. The "N" word was replaced by "black" and those "Afro-Americans" and "people of color" were asked to be called "black" at one point. I don't think political correctness needs to get in the way of a tragedy and trying to understand it. ...........what N word was replaced by black?

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:28 PM
The President working, handing out water, helping evacuate people...JMO. I know...I know...Secret Service would have a coronary! Those poor guys!

I see the President walking around and talking to these people that are needing water, food, etc. Why isn't someone handing them what they need to survive WHILE they're awaiting evacuation? Is that too much to ask?!!! I heard all the cameras in the background shooting pics of this moment but I would be more impressed with him helping them instead of lip service! JMO...don't hurt me!

How much fuel was wasted to get him there for this photo opportunity?

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:28 PM
I'd be the first president of the US who used coupons to buy groceries.
Well someone needs to! I think a woman president who has raised children as a single parent or with little or no money or BOTH (usually the case as a single parent) and who has not come from money should be in charge. Get these people who they have in shelters to work (those able to). Give them back their pride! Make them feel useful!

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 01:28 PM
You're right!! IMO, it's discrimination against POOR people....and that is a shame in America! We are trying fix everyone else's problems and can't even take care of our own!

IMO, this is closer to the truth, rather than true race, per se. My take is it's an insensitivity (whether it's in a selfish way or accidental) towards their plight, and not understanding they often don't have the basics. It's the part of NO you don't really think about under normal circumstances. NO is known for being a party city, tourist attraction, etc. Maybe once a year it makes national news that they're #1 in the murder rate, or similar crime stats. Every large urban area has it's projects and poverty-stricken citizens. It's glossed over everywhere, not just NO.

I, too, wonder when we'll quit spending so much $ on foreign aid and take care of so many needs here in the US. But remember how we were condemned after the Tsunami, we didn't give "enough," and "quick enough?" Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:29 PM
How much fuel was wasted to get him there for this photo opportunity? Well, THEY don't pay for it...WE DO! I just bought a big truck 5 months ago too for our boat (fishing boat, nothing fancy) because hubby and I are getting older and would like to enjoy life, but NOOOOO!!! We have to decide on food, gas for work, doctor, etc. or a few hours on a Saturday or Sunday fishing!

Dara
09-02-2005, 01:31 PM
I don't believe anyone is in charge right now, which is what the mayor said 3 days ago.
Exactly.

And what we've seen bears that out. Remember thousands of people were told to go to the Convention Center (I have to find who told them). They got there. No food. No water. Most importantly, no one in charge. One man interviewed yesterday said, "We need someone in here with a bullhorn. Just tell us what to do." Now, I know things got bad but at no point was there anyone official taking charge.

Police went in and had to be pulled out for their own safety. That happened yesterday or Wednesday. And that was, as far as I can tell, that.

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 01:31 PM
I can't understand, if there was a mandatory evacuation, WHY there are PEOPLE still there as well.
Although it's called a "mandatory evacuation," law enforcement and emergency personnel can't legally force anyone to leave against their will. It happens here in Florida all the time. Mandatory simply means that they strongly recommend you leave for your own safety; but, if you choose to stay, they want to know how to contact your next of kin.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:32 PM
Okay, now you've made my list of people for public office. I hope you have time! GREAT POINTS!! We need people in there who have SEEN the bad and let us know (America) how we can get a handle on it (crime before, during and after the hurricane). So, get some rest... you've got lots of handshaking to do!!! :laugh:
IMO, this is closer to the truth, rather than true race, per se. My take is it's an insensitivity (whether it's in a selfish way or accidental) towards their plight, and not understanding they often don't have the basics. It's the part of NO you don't really think about under normal circumstances. NO is known for being a party city, tourist attraction, etc. Maybe once a year it makes national news that they're #1 in the murder rate, or similar crime stats. Every large urban area has it's projects and poverty-stricken citizens. It's glossed over everywhere, not just NO.

I, too, wonder when we'll quit spending so much $ on foreign aid and take care of so many needs here in the US. But remember how we were condemned after the Tsunami, we didn't give "enough," and "quick enough?" Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:34 PM
Although it's called a "mandatory evacuation," law enforcement and emergency personnel can't legally force anyone to leave against their will. It happens here in Florida all the time. Mandatory simply means that they strongly recommend you leave for your own safety; but, if you choose to stay, they want to know how to contact your next of kin.
What about the nursing home patients and hospital patients? That's the real issue I can't understand. Of course, I have never lived in an area with hurricanes. I am learning more than I ever wanted to know and I appreciate your input.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 01:36 PM
The Army convoys are rolling now to the Convention Center. Tons of supplies! Evidently they're saying to the looters, "This is not Iraq - Put down your guns".

Quite a sight to see them all rolling in (CNN), the ocean of water comes maybe 1/3 to 1/2 way up their wheels, and it makes waves as they roll through.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:38 PM
The Army convoys are rolling now to the Convention Center. Tons of supplies! Evidently they're saying to the looters, "This is not Iraq - Put down your guns".

Quite a sight to see them all rolling in (CNN), the ocean of water comes maybe 1/3 to 1/2 way up their wheels, and it makes waves as they roll through.
Thanks for the info!!! I'm so glad!!! These people have got to be encouraged about that!

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 01:40 PM
Although it's called a "mandatory evacuation," law enforcement and emergency personnel can't legally force anyone to leave against their will. It happens here in Florida all the time. Mandatory simply means that they strongly recommend you leave for your own safety; but, if you choose to stay, they want to know how to contact your next of kin.

OK, I didn't know that, Ntegrity. I was wondering if they could make them leave. But maybe they should change that policy if it's about guaruanteed you're going to die. (Lake Ponchertrain)

But surely they weren't able to talk to all the people who stayed back and get numbers of their next of kin.?

Mabel
09-02-2005, 01:40 PM
The Army convoys are rolling now to the Convention Center. Tons of supplies! Evidently they're saying to the looters, "This is not Iraq - Put down your guns".

Quite a sight to see them all rolling in (CNN), the ocean of water comes maybe 1/3 to 1/2 way up their wheels, and it makes waves as they roll through.

It's a wonderful sight.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 01:42 PM
Maybe things will start looking up now - slowly but surely.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 01:42 PM
...........what N word was replaced by black?Well, Jann, I'll tell you. Many, many years ago it was acceptable to say Negro. It was polite and back then, it showed respect. Some prejudiced ingnoramuses used a bastardation of the word and said "******". It was demeaning and I believe those who used it were what we could call "poor white trash" in order to make themselves feel and look better than their fellow man. However, many Afro-Americans used that same "N" word themselves, among themselves. Was that ok? I don't know, but they did and it was acceptable as long as it was used between themselves. In the sixties, the younger generation started using other terms, "blacks", as I remember. Even then the older generations of "blacks" did not wish to associate with radicals and Negro was still acceptable to them. Now times have changed.

That's the best and most polite way I can answer you.

ETA: Now let me tell you, there is definitely a "pecking order" among people of color in Miami, for example. It depends on your heritage. Bahamian, Jamacian, Hatian and American. I know this for a fact. Told by themselves to me.

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 01:43 PM
What about the nursing home patients and hospital patients? That's the real issue I can't understand. Of course, I have never lived in an area with hurricanes. I am learning more than I ever wanted to know and I appreciate your input.
I can't answer that honestly since I've had no experience with it. I know that a friend's mom was taken by ambulance from a nursing home in Destin to Panama City before we were hit by Ivan (she died en route, BTW, so moving them isn't always the best idea). I'm not sure whether this was decided by the family or the nursing home. I've never heard of our hospitals being evacuated, but then none of them are near the gulf and wouldn't be affected by storm surge.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:47 PM
True...the transporting (even under usual circumstances) can be more dangerous. Thanks!
I can't answer that honestly since I've had no experience with it. I know that a friend's mom was taken by ambulance from a nursing home in Destin to Panama City before we were hit by Ivan (she died en route, BTW, so moving them isn't always the best idea). I'm not sure whether this was decided by the family or the nursing home. I've never heard of our hospitals being evacuated, but then none of them are near the gulf and wouldn't be affected by storm surge.

Marthatex
09-02-2005, 01:50 PM
It's kind of like when I was a girl growing up, there were "Mexicans", but now it is better to say Hispanics or Latino or Latina (female) When writing, some prefer Hispanic, others prefer Latino; sometimes you don't know what the heck to write.

Also, Indians that I knew as a girl are now Native Americans. As a teacher, I'm so used to saying Indians that I always forget. But then if you forget, some parent or administrator is going to "call you on it", when of course you meant no offense to anyone.

My husband is supposed to refer to someone as a woman, or female not a "lady", in his medical records. He can get in trouble for calling someone a lady. (of course he always forgets and usually says "very nice lady" or somesuch)

Isn't that ripe?

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 01:53 PM
OK, I didn't know that, Ntegrity. I was wondering if they could make them leave. But maybe they should change that policy if it's about guaruanteed you're going to die. (Lake Ponchertrain)

But surely they weren't able to talk to all the people who stayed back and get numbers of their next of kin.?
I know that in NW Florida, police go door-to-door in evacuation areas trying to encourage people to leave. Some stay and some of those die. The cops don't physically drag them out of their homes kicking and screaming, but they always ask for next of kin information for the ones who refuse to leave. Sometimes that shocks people into the realization this is deadly serious. Since I live in a different (more affluent) "culture" (there's that word again LOL), people are more prone to leave their "stuff" behind (heck, it's insured anyhow) and worry about saving their lives. I suspect many of the Project residents in NO didn't have insurance and thought they could stay and protect their property. I understand that thinking but it wasn't a wise choice. We'll never win a fight with Mother Nature.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 01:53 PM
So true!! :clap: We're PEOPLE! Also, I remember when being a "lady" was a good thing!
It's kind of like when I was a girl growing up, there were "Mexicans", but now it is better to say Hispanics or Latino or Latina (female) When writing, some prefer Hispanic, others prefer Latino; sometimes you don't know what the heck to write.

Also, Indians that I knew as a girl are now Native Americans. As a teacher, I'm so used to saying Indians that I always forget. But then if you forget, some parent or administrator is going to "call you on it", when of course you meant no offense to anyone.

My husband is supposed to refer to someone as a woman, or female not a "lady", in his medical records. He can get in trouble for calling someone a lady. (of course he always forgets and usually says "very nice lady" or somesuch)

Isn't that ripe?

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 01:58 PM
I can't answer that honestly since I've had no experience with it. I know that a friend's mom was taken by ambulance from a nursing home in Destin to Panama City before we were hit by Ivan (she died en route, BTW, so moving them isn't always the best idea). I'm not sure whether this was decided by the family or the nursing home. I've never heard of our hospitals being evacuated, but then none of them are near the gulf and wouldn't be affected by storm surge.

I believe the hospitals weren't evacuated was because most of them have large generators and are built stronger than the average home and in a lot of cases moving the patient would risk their lives. What happened was the levee breaches that caused the huge flooding, disabling the generators.

In addition, had they tried to evacuate the hospitals early on where would all these patients go? New Orleans is where most people go for serious medical needs. Charity Hospital is a state run facility for the poor. University Medical in Lafayette is another charity hospital but its capabilities are limited. Many sick people with no place to send them. That is why we were seeing Birmingham sending in nurses and doctors being flown in to pick up the NICO babies......specialized care. Just a terrible situation all the way around.

jannuncutt
09-02-2005, 02:01 PM
Well, Jann, I'll tell you. Many, many years ago it was acceptable to say Negro. It was polite and back then, it showed respect. Some prejudiced ingnoramuses used a bastardation of the word and said "******". It was demeaning and I believe those who used it were what we could call "poor white trash" in order to make themselves feel and look better than their fellow man. However, many Afro-Americans used that same "N" word themselves, among themselves. Was that ok? I don't know, but they did and it was acceptable as long as it was used between themselves. In the sixties, the younger generation started using other terms, "blacks", as I remember. Even then the older generations of "blacks" did not wish to associate with radicals and Negro was still acceptable to them. Now times have changed.

That's the best and most polite way I can answer you.

ETA: Now let me tell you, there is definitely a "pecking order" among people of color in Miami, for example. It depends on your heritage. Bahamian, Jamacian, Hatian and American. I know this for a fact. Told by themselves to me.
Thanks for your response. I thought that you put it very nicely. My question to you was which N word you were referring to and now I know. I am aware that there is a "pecking order" among people of color". As far as the "N" word goes (and, I don't mean Negro), most African-Americans consider it quite offensive and, hate when they hear it, no matter who is using it.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 02:04 PM
"Mandatory evacuations" - well, actually, they can be arrested for refusing to leave. Now, I don't remember the CA penal code for that, but in one wildfire I worked, when we were confronted by a**holes that were refusing to leave or wanted just to "quicky" break through the barriers to go get their *second* car, or some other material posession, the Commanding Officer would make it clear to them, they could be arrested for going back in...or, a gentler reminder was indeed what you all are talking about - signing a waiver stating they understood that NO emergency worker would answer their later pleas for help ("you're on your own" was the quote), and here, on this form, put down your next of kin....That worked every time! (Did we also get true heart-wrenching stories about why they needed to go in? You bet, and a few *exceptions* were made, after checking with other ground personnel and knowing the situation at the time. And they were escorted, so they'd get whatever and get the heck back out. ;) )

But in reality, for this situation - well, arresting them wasn't going to help the evacuation situation, paperwork and transporting would take time and resources away from the primary goal of the evacuation, and where the heck would they take them to? The jail that was going to be flooded? :doh:
(Had they been able to figure out who was going to do the looting, however,...oh never mind...)

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:06 PM
Thanks for the info. I'm like a sponge sometimes and the more info I get, the more ?'s I think of.
"Mandatory evacuations" - well, actually, they can be arrested for refusing to leave. Now, I don't remember the CA penal code for that, but in one wildfire I worked, when we were confronted by a**holes that were refusing to leave or wanted just to "quicky" break through the barriers to go get their *second* car, or some other material posession, the Commanding Officer would make it clear to them, they could be arrested for going back in...or, a gentler reminder was indeed what you all are talking about - signing a waiver stating they understood that NO emergency worker would answer their later pleas for help ("you're on your own" was the quote), and here, on this form, put down your next of kin....That worked every time! (Did we also get true heart-wrenching stories about why they needed to go in? You bet, and a few *exceptions* were made, after checking with other ground personnel and knowing the situation at the time. And they were escorted, so they'd get whatever and get the heck back out. ;) )

But in reality, for this situation - well, arresting them wasn't going to help the evacuation situation, paperwork and transporting would take time and resources away from the primary goal of the evacuation, and where the heck would they take them to? The jail that was going to be flooded? :doh:
(Had they been able to figure out who was going to do the looting, however,...oh never mind...)

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:09 PM
Personally, I like getting info from everyone. Many people can add to these discussions and I don't feel information that someone shares whether from experience, knowledge, etc. is crap. JMO

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 02:12 PM
Okay, now you've made my list of people for public office. I hope you have time! GREAT POINTS!! We need people in there who have SEEN the bad and let us know (America) how we can get a handle on it (crime before, during and after the hurricane). So, get some rest... you've got lots of handshaking to do!!! :laugh:


Thanks but no thanks, okay?! I'd hate to be in public office- yet I wouldn't mind working for someone who really did care about the "average citizens," would try to keep an eye on the big picture...one who really listened. There will never be enough funds to do everything that is wanted or needed, and I'd hate to be responsible for saying no to the senior citizens, or the homeless, or etc. etc. And one that had the integrity to not accept a pay raise or a LARGE pension increase (hidden in bill somewhere else), when the state's warehouses are filled with textbooks for schools, but can't be released because the funds to pay for the books hasn't been approved, etc. ;)

I got waaaay OT on that, eh? Sorry!

Ntegrity
09-02-2005, 02:12 PM
"Mandatory evacuations" - well, actually, they can be arrested for refusing to leave.
I'm not sure of Florida statutes but, to my knowledge, nobody has ever been arrested around here for refusing to leave their homes. There's just no excuse for not leaving low lying areas during a hurricane. I never left until we were threatened with Dennis being a possible Cat 4 at landfall. We packed up and headed north for that one. My house has weathered many Cat 3 storms, but I'm not gonna press my luck by testing it on a 4 or 5.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-02-2005, 02:21 PM
I'm not sure of Florida statutes but, to my knowledge, nobody has ever been arrested around here for refusing to leave their homes.

I bet it's in the statutes, just maybe never used. I personally have never seen it used (thank goodness)...I'll have to look up TX's some night when I'm bored and can't sleep, LOL.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 02:25 PM
A Colossal Failure Of Leaders

Saving people and maintaining order are the first order of government in any disaster. In New Orleans, neither has been achieved.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9174806/site/newsweek

Good read.

Texana
09-02-2005, 02:25 PM
There are plenty of places to point fingers.

For years and years, the infrastructure of New Orleans and much of Louisiana has not kept up with the need. Blame it on poverty, corruption, and a segregated population (not just white/black, but Creole/Cajun as well.) All you have to do is drive over the border from Texas on the same interstate into La. and you will know you are in La.

There has long been a problem of poverty and crime in the Big Easy. There are places I could go as a child (spending summers there with my grandparents) that I could never take my children this summer. The public schools are notoriously bad, and this has only reinforced a class system of generational poverty.

The governor of La., Kathy Blanco, seemed emotionally overwrought and almost unable to cope. Add to that a seemingly slow response from FEMA, a "go easy on looters" first response that backfired in encouraging the gangs and criminals to take control, and an overall denial from citizen to politician of just how bad things could get, before the storm made landfall.

Please keep the children in your thoughts and prayers. We will be teaching them and caring for them in the months to come. I know that next week this will be a personal reality for me. Every school I know (and we are on the outskirts of Houston) is taking in these children. (I'm home sick today. Children share everything. )

Also, some of the finest people I know are from Louisiana. Mr. Texana grew up in New Orleans. Keep them and Houston in your prayers.



:sick:

tybee204
09-02-2005, 02:26 PM
I have never witnessed it but have been told by City Leaders on Tybee that anything over a Cat 3 threat would result in forced evacuation on Tybee. A 10 ft storm surge at high tide would put all of the Island underwater and likely destroy all dwellings and the one bridge on and off the Island. There would be a zero percent survival rate.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:27 PM
Thanks for the link! Great read!
A Colossal Failure Of Leaders

Saving people and maintaining order are the first order of government in any disaster. In New Orleans, neither has been achieved.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9174806/site/newsweek

Good read.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:28 PM
I have never witnessed it but have been told by City Leaders on Tybee that anything over a Cat 3 threat would result in forced evacuation on Tybee. A 10 ft storm surge at high tide would put all of the Island underwater and likely destroy all dwellings and the one bridge on and off the Island. There would be a zero percent survival rate. If that's the case, I don't even want to see what they refer to as a Cat. 5+!!!

jannuncutt
09-02-2005, 02:31 PM
I referred to "African Americans" as blacks or negroes too. I see nothing wrong with that. If anyone should "drop the crap" it's those of you who are so hung up on using the politically correct phrase of the day. I'm sick of it. ....................I never implied that I had a problem with that - because I don't. I am also, not hung up on using the politically correct phrase of the day. My objection to her use of "the Blacks" is that it implies that all Black people are of the same mind - that they all think alike and that they all behave the same way - as if there is the "Black" way.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 02:31 PM
Geez, neither do I. Jan, what exactly is your problem? I'm totally confused by your attitude. It seems like you're trying to pick a fight but I can't figure out why. Maybe Marthatex and I are older than you, but I referred to "African Americans" as blacks or negroes too. I see nothing wrong with that. If anyone should "drop the crap" it's those of you who are so hung up on using the politically correct phrase of the day. I'm sick of it.
You'll have to add me to your short list Ntegrity. Been there, done that. Martha's experience and family connections in Politics bring an interesting viewpoint to our forums.

T'sNana
09-02-2005, 02:32 PM
But Martha's gotta quit TOOTIN'!!! Sorry couldn't resist that one!
You'll have to add me to your short list Ntegrity. Been there, done that. Martha's experience and family connections in Politics bring an interesting viewpoint to our forums.

Mabel
09-02-2005, 02:40 PM
................

The governor of La., Kathy Blanco, seemed emotionally overwrought and almost unable to cope. Add to that a seemingly slow response from FEMA, a "go easy on looters" first response that backfired in encouraging the gangs and criminals to take control, and an overall denial from citizen to politician of just how bad things could get, before the storm made landfall.

............................



:sick:

Apparently FEMA is all but dismantled, according to this article:


Destroying FEMA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/29/AR2005082901445.html)


This year it was announced that FEMA is to "officially" lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission.

yingyang
09-02-2005, 03:38 PM
I hope when this situation is under control, we, the people, stand up and demand answers. Our government has been working for their own interests for far too long. It's about time they begin working for us again. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Of everything I have read on this and other forums, I think this is the most succint statement made. Thank you Mabel.

Casshew
09-02-2005, 04:15 PM
I haven't read all the responses. but to answer the orginal question - I don't think it would have made any difference if the victims were mostly white people - the rescue effort would have been just as disorganized & lacking.

Race has nothing to do with the shameful organization & rescue effort of the first few days of this disaster.

By the way, it looks authorities are getting their acts together and help is finally reaching these poor people.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 04:20 PM
I haven't read all the responses. but to answer the orginal question - I don't think it would have made any difference if the victims were mostly white people - the rescue effort would have been just as disorganized & lacking.

Race has nothing to do with the shameful organization & rescue effort of the first few days of this disaster.

By the way, it looks authorities are getting their acts together and help is finally reaching these poor people.

It could have been that blistering interview with mayor Ray Nagin. He was some mad and nothing that we haven't all expressed, he just did it on the air and didn't mince words. Or it could have been the shocking news coverage of the convention center that set the world on end.

Casshew
09-02-2005, 04:22 PM
Okay, now I have read the whole thread ~ many varied opinions here.

Marthatex, my friend ~ :blowkiss:

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 04:28 PM
Why I was at work today, this was going on outside the front door of my store. Americans working together to help their fellow Americans.

http://www.weatherunderground.com/wximage/viewsingleimage.html?mode=singleimage&orig_handle=SunglassGirl&orig_number=257&handle=SunglassGirl&number=256&album_id=64#slideanchor


http://www.weatherunderground.com/wximage/viewsingleimage.html?mode=singleimage&orig_handle=SunglassGirl&orig_number=257&handle=SunglassGirl&number=257&album_id=64#slideanchor

What was your contribution today?

kahskye
09-02-2005, 06:13 PM
I haven't had the chance to read this entire thread, but I don't want to think race would have made a difference, but these people weren't treated like Americans should be treated. Part of the problem was not preparing ahead with supplies. They knew the hurricane was coming, and knew that not everyone would evacuate. There should have been supplies, especially water, on hand to drop off for the victims stranded. Those poor people along I-10 who couldn't get over to the dome should have had water dropped down to them. I do feel like these ones that didn't evacuate when told were treated very poorly. I don't think we can understand the level of poverty these people were in. I don't think many had the money or transportation to just up and leave. Sure, some saw an opportunity to advantage of the situation and take what wasn't theirs for no reason except it was free. If some wanted to loot clothes and jewelry, so be it. You're always going to have some bad apples, but that doesn't make it right for those who did try to evacuate and make it to I-10 to have to wait 4 days in the hot blazing sun watching their own slowly die before getting help. I wonder if our President knows what it's like to sweat! I wonder if he'd feel different about grabbing some water or formula if he had an infant in his arms slowly loosing the will to live, slowly dehydrating, slowly dying. Would he grab a pair of shoes for his elderly father to protect his bloody feet and help him walk? Guards should have been called in to protect the people. These people in NO were treated like animals.

BarnGoddess
09-02-2005, 06:25 PM
I haven't had the chance to read this entire thread, but I don't want to think race would have made a difference, but these people weren't treated like Americans should be treated. Part of the problem was not preparing ahead with supplies. They knew the hurricane was coming, and knew that not everyone would evacuate. There should have been supplies, especially water, on hand to drop off for the victims stranded. Those poor people along I-10 who couldn't get over to the dome should have had water dropped down to them. I do feel like these ones that didn't evacuate when told were treated very poorly. I don't think we can understand the level of poverty these people were in. I don't think many had the money or transportation to just up and leave. Sure, some saw an opportunity to advantage of the situation and take what wasn't theirs for no reason except it was free. If some wanted to loot clothes and jewelry, so be it. You're always going to have some bad apples, but that doesn't make it right for those who did try to evacuate and make it to I-10 to have to wait 4 days in the hot blazing sun watching their own slowly die before getting help. I wonder if our President knows what it's like to sweat! I wonder if he'd feel different about grabbing some water of formula if he had an infant in his arms slowly loosing the will to live, slowly dehydrating, slowly dying. Would he grab a pair of shoes for his elderly father to protect his bloody feet and help him walk? Guards should have been called in to protect the people. These people in NO were treated like animals.
When we keep hearing about snipers attacking rescuers, holding others hostage, the very helicopters shot at when they try to drop water, is it any wonder that action is not happening fast enough.

I'd say sit back, take a deep breath and look at the whole picture. As soon as troops can get in there and take charge and try to restore some order, someone is going to be able to get to them. Concentrate on sending good vibes to the troops to restore some order. As soon as that's done, then help will be there in a flash.

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 06:27 PM
When we keep hearing about snipers attacking rescuers, holding others hostage, the very helicopters shot at when they try to drop water, is it any wonder that action is not happening fast enough.

I'd say sit back, take a deep breath and look at the whole picture. As soon as troops can get in there and take charge and try to restore some order, someone is going to be able to get to them. Concentrate on sending good vibes to the troops to restore some order. As soon as that's done, then help will be there in a flash.
As always BarnGoddess, your voice of experience.:clap:

Mabel
09-02-2005, 06:36 PM
So we should accept that it's taken the government 5 days to get in there and deal with the snippers and looters while innocent people are suffering and dying? Is this what we should expect from them? What if this were a situation where terrorists were holding NY city hostage? Would you be content with the government waiting 5 days to take action?

Dara
09-02-2005, 06:43 PM
When we keep hearing about snipers attacking rescuers, holding others hostage, the very helicopters shot at when they try to drop water, is it any wonder that action is not happening fast enough.

It's a wonder that our government let the criminal element take over and halt/prevent rescue efforts that began far too late.

That's part of the whole picture, too.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 06:43 PM
So we should accept that it's taken the government 5 days to get in there and deal with the snippers and looters while innocent people are suffering and dying? Is this what we should expect from them? What if this were a situation where terrorists were holding NY city hostage? Would you be content with the government waiting 5 days to take action?

Well, you know my opinion on that. I was calling for the military before the storm hit. I know these people, I am from there originally. The action has to be intiated at a State level.

kahskye
09-02-2005, 07:16 PM
When we keep hearing about snipers attacking rescuers, holding others hostage, the very helicopters shot at when they try to drop water, is it any wonder that action is not happening fast enough.

I'd say sit back, take a deep breath and look at the whole picture. As soon as troops can get in there and take charge and try to restore some order, someone is going to be able to get to them. Concentrate on sending good vibes to the troops to restore some order. As soon as that's done, then help will be there in a flash.
Oh please, I don't need to take a deep breath. I have looked at the whole picture. Given the advance warning the government had on this hurricane, why didn't they start preparing for supplies and relief sooner? They knew this in a high crime rate area. They knew there was a high chance of looting and snipers. The troops should have been ready to move immediately. I agree with Mabel. They should have had military ready to go in on day one before the snipers tried to take the city. Five days is unacceptable.

Dara
09-02-2005, 07:32 PM
Pardon my aneurysm. Did I just hear that Bush praised the head of FEMA?

Uhg. I had hope when he said the response was unacceptable, but if he praised the guy who's running this for FEMA, who didn't know as of yesterday afternoon that there was unrest or that there were people at the convention center, I will scream.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 07:35 PM
Pardon my aneurysm. Did I just hear that Bush praised the head of FEMA?

Uhg. I had hope when he said the response was unacceptable, but if he praised the guy who's running this for FEMA, who didn't know as of yesterday afternoon that there was unrest or that there were people at the convention center, I will scream.

Welcome to my world.

j2mirish
09-02-2005, 07:58 PM
I agree. If you really think about it, A LOT has been done in just 4 days! Not enough, clearly, but let's realize we are talking thousands and thousands of people. As someone at work said yesterday (and I posted it, but I think it's worth repeating, IMO) - "This is the first time we've tried to relocate an ENTIRE municipality."

People interviewed that said a lot of people didn't have the means to leave, but a lot didn't leave because they're "sentimental." Not my word, but from a guy from down there. Heck, I'm sentimental, but won't lose my life or my family's life due to being sentimental. It's disheartening to me that people who have never been through an emergency/disaster can talk about what all needs to be done. I hate to see the finger-pointing now - get the people taken care of (in flocks of 25,000! at a time) and we can all have the next 5-10 years to analyze what went wrong and where. It'll be analyzed and debated for years to come. I also can't blame Bush or even Clinton if ya wanna go back further. This has been years of mismanagement, I guess.

And no, I do not think race has much of anything to do with it. Maybe the enormity of the poverty, and lack of means to evacuate, may have been underestimated; but other than that, no, I don't think there was a layer of government (local, state or federal) that sat back and decided we won't plan accordingly because of race. JMHO.

There was an African American male on Fox this morning, being interviewed after he and his family had been transported to the AstroDome, but turned away because it's full. He sounded disgusted with what "my own people" are doing. His words, not mine. He said now was the time to step up and be a real man. God bless him and his wife and I think it was 2 small kids with him. I hope he's one that is being sent to Reliant Stadium.


This post imo says it all-- very well written and thought out I agree with everything 1000000000% :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

j2mirish
09-02-2005, 08:09 PM
So we should accept that it's taken the government 5 days to get in there and deal with the snippers and looters while innocent people are suffering and dying? Is this what we should expect from them? What if this were a situation where terrorists were holding NY city hostage? Would you be content with the government waiting 5 days to take action?

I dont think anyone should be "content" with the time frame -- However, I truly believe "us" sitting in the privacy of our homes, have no idea of the true magnitude of this tragedy- I do understand that they not only had to contend with the hurricane, but the flooding was proabaly the worse of the 2 nightmares. I think we all need to think about the geographical area we are talking about also---- this isnt just a neighborhood or two. It is very very very sad, and as I said before, we should not be ok with the timeframe , but I dont believe it was just because the agencies were lazy-- I think they never had a thought of having to deal with something of this horrific nature...

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 08:13 PM
Good grief, O'Reilly has things happening. Their saying there is still 30,000 people in New Orleans. 30,000. Where are they going to take this many people?

bulletgirl2002
09-02-2005, 08:13 PM
If the majority were affluent & white :confused:
I think the affluent and white that lived there also lost everything they owned. The hurricaine and water were color blind. I believe that the people of the US, the US government and other nations will be extermely generous with their help. It is a tragedy of such a magnitude that relief was just not prepared. I can't believe that anyone would think that color and/or economic status makes a difference in a situation like this...

Dara
09-02-2005, 08:24 PM
However, I truly believe "us" sitting in the privacy of our homes, have no idea of the true magnitude of this tragedy-
How about that? That gives us something in common with Michael Brown.

Linda7NJ
09-02-2005, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=less0305]EDITED

Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help.
:doh: :banghead: THUD! AGAIN!

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 08:30 PM
:doh: :banghead: THUD! AGAIN!

Why don't you recognize a problem? Do you have a magic wand to make this all go away? Please ease my soul, all I do is cry. Help me.

Beyond Belief
09-02-2005, 08:34 PM
Another day another night

I don't personally care what anyone calls anybody. Even the conversation is a waste of time.
They are reporting 30,000 people at a convention center in New Orleans. Are we braindead? These people need to be moved to safe places.

bulletgirl2002
09-02-2005, 08:42 PM
Another day another night

I don't personally care what anyone calls anybody. Even the conversation is a waste of time.
They are reporting 30,000 people at a convention center in New Orleans. Are we braindead? These people need to be moved to safe places.
It is my belief that this is being done as we post...

j2mirish
09-02-2005, 08:53 PM
=Dara]How about that? That gives us something in common with Michael Brown

Please explain what you mean by that? My post was with no intention of disrespect anyone- If you felt I worded somethng in a way it did- explain-
tia

Dark Knight
09-02-2005, 08:53 PM
Maybe this is a sign that our government has "lost" the nation, i.e. it is no longer effective, in many ways. I say this because of all the comments here and in the media saying "is this happening in America?" Maybe "losing" the city of N.O. was just a metaphor for the larger reality, either vis a vis the Bush Administration or our leaders in general. Just thinking out loud.

Dara
09-02-2005, 08:54 PM
=Dara]How about that? That gives us something in common with Michael Brown

Please explain what you mean by that? My post was with no intention of disrespect anyone- If you felt I worded somethng in a way it did- explain-
tia
No, not at all. I just mean we have that in common with Michael Brown, the FEMA guy who said yesterday afternoon that he'd heard of no "unrest" and didn't know people were at the convention center (by that time, people had died here, and been raped). Bush praised his today, I heard.

concernedperson
09-02-2005, 08:57 PM
Maybe this is a sign that our government has "lost" the nation, i.e. it is no longer effective, in many ways. I say this because of all the comments here and in the media saying "is this happening in America?" Maybe "losing" the city of N.O. was just a metaphor for the larger reality, either vis a vis the Bush Administration or our leaders in general. Just thinking out loud.

I am with you on this.I am appalled. I can't even believe we are looking at this with any rose colored glasses.

Linda7NJ
09-02-2005, 08:58 PM
Why don't you recognize a problem? Do you have a magic wand to make this all go away? Please ease my soul, all I do is cry. Help me.
Huh?:waitasec: Ya lost me

Details
09-02-2005, 09:01 PM
I don't think its race. It's a combination of a few elements - first, the scale of the disaster is far, far larger than expected; also, the hit was delayed - everyone had started to relax, people had come back to the city after the hurricane passed.

FEMA practiced for a cat3, not a high cat4; and I think the idea that New Orleans would so quickly become uninhabitable was just to huge for people to realize.

Then there's those idiot gangs - I'm quite sure they did stay behind to loot - people who are looters will do that. When all your neighbors are out, it's such a great time to steal lots of stuff! And others know that, so they stay behind to protect their stuff from the looters - that combined with the usual stubborness of people left that 20% behind in the city (and to me, that sounds about typical for a mandatory evacuation - there are always lots of people who figure they can ride it out, looters, and people protecting their property).

So many people behind and in danger means that everyone available (and the roads into the city were mostly toast, communications nearly nonexistient, hard to get more manpower where it is needed) was working on rescues, which was all the opportunity the gangs needed to try to take over the city. I can't disagree with the decision to try to save lives rather than stop looters - until it got too bad, I'd have done the same thing.

And all those thugs out there decided to shoot at the rescuers, try to steal all the relief supplies for themselves, go after the medicine the doctors had - I think they like the city this way. That has been a significant delaying factor in the relief and rescue efforts.

I don't think the color of the skin on the gangs nor the people to be rescued made a bit of difference. The presence of the thugs and their actions - that does make a huge difference.


Marthaatex: Don't change a word, and keep calling it like you see it. PC attempts to hide from unpleasant truths do not do any race, any group, any society any good.

j2mirish
09-02-2005, 09:04 PM
=Dara]No, not at all. I just mean we have that in common with Michael Brown, the FEMA guy who said yesterday afternoon that he'd heard of no "unrest" and didn't know people were at the convention center (by that time, people had died here, and been raped). Bush praised his today, I heard


Ok- I see what you meant----:blushing: --I guess what I meant by the US sitting in our homes, was just we are all so upset with the tragedy, that we want things to go perfectly -- ( you know that saying....armchair quarterbacks!) I am one of the first to shout the things about our government that I feel are wrong-- Maybe I just want to feel in the bottom of my heart, that this scenario was SOOOOO HUGE--- they did not even know where to begin- Again ..does that make this right--- absolutley not--- but does it mean it was intentional...I dont think so ---I live just miles north of where hurricane charlie hit last year-- it was a 4 also- but it did not have near the dimension of Katrina-- that was a year ago- and there are still piles of trash & debri-- I cant even begin to imagine taking on the cleanup of this nightmare-

Marthatex
09-03-2005, 12:25 AM
....................I never implied that I had a problem with that - because I don't. I am also, not hung up on using the politically correct phrase of the day. My objection to her use of "the Blacks" is that it implies that all Black people are of the same mind - that they all think alike and that they all behave the same way - as if there is the "Black" way.

I had always thought that I was supposed to say Black, or the Blacks. Not Negro anymore. As I explained, I was just typing fast and reporting things I had heard.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding the "blacks".

When I listed those things about myself I was very angry one night about things perhaps you may or may not know about. I felt I was being treated very badly. I am very sensitive.

I am not aware that I go around "tooting my own horn". Sometimes I brag about my children or some accomplishment, like my writing awards. So what? I thought women were supposed to pat themselves on the back and support each other. Guess not.

I am a Democrat and believe in most democratic principles, so you're barking up the wrong tree. I do not feel that I should have to appologize for the fact that my father has worked in government, and is a famous man around here. I'm proud of him.

I'm sorry that something has made you so angry at me.

Marthatex
09-03-2005, 12:32 AM
:doh: :banghead: THUD! AGAIN!

Like, what do you mean? I was saying that tongue in cheek because it wasn't OK to say blacks.

Black is the only thing I know, so please just tell me what to say. Don't play games, just say what you mean.

Linda7NJ
09-03-2005, 01:25 AM
Like, what do you mean? I was saying that tongue in cheek because it wasn't OK to say blacks.

Black is the only thing I know, so please just tell me what to say. Don't play games, just say what you mean.You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthatex
[QUOTE=less0305]EDITED

"Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help."



My panties are twisted because it sounds as if the two are synonymous in your dictionary. ( impoverished="blacks")

Also, maybe you should take notice to the elderly.....they tend to be impoverished there as well, regardless of color.

Details
09-03-2005, 02:07 AM
IMHO, I read that as just a frustrated attempt to come up with a term that she wouldn't be slammed for. All seems pretty ridiculous to me. So many different terms, every single one a hot button to someone.

goody34
09-03-2005, 02:11 AM
I believe that the response would have been different depending upon affluence, not race,

Those on vacation from around the country or from other countries were taken from the superdome first:
Fats Domino and Irma Thomson, were both located and rescued along with their families and taken to an "undisclosed location" not the superdome.

In my opinion, this is definetly a cases of class discrimination, but I don't think it was about racism.

Nova
09-03-2005, 02:33 AM
I for one was very surprised to see the large amount of Afro Americans involved in this tragedy. It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to help.

I am very sadden by the amount of looting, crime, etc. I think those people commiting these crimes have done that for years not just in the event of the hurricane. Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.

BB, as I'm reading your post I am hearing stats on TV: 120,000 people in NO were living on incomes of less than $8,000/year before the hurricane. Most such people did not have cars in which to leave; many did not have extended family that could afford to house them, nor could they afford to stay in upcountry motels.

And before we judge their supposed "mentality," let's us go without food and water and security and medicine and information for 4 or 5 days. Then we'll see who complains and who breaks into a grocery store.

Nova
09-03-2005, 02:42 AM
I believe that the response would have been different depending upon affluence, not race,

Those on vacation from around the country or from other countries were taken from the superdome first:
Fats Domino and Irma Thomson, were both located and rescued along with their families and taken to an "undisclosed location" not the superdome.

In my opinion, this is definetly a cases of class discrimination, but I don't think it was about racism.

I think you are right. Given enough income or fame, "blacks" become less "black" (in some ways) in this country. Unfortunately, class and race are nearly inseparable given our history.

Bobbisangel
09-03-2005, 04:40 AM
If the majority were affluent & white :confused:


I'd bet money on that one and I never bet unless I am positive that I will win.

Bobbisangel
09-03-2005, 04:51 AM
I for one was very surprised to see the large amount of Afro Americans involved in this tragedy. It certainly wouldn't affect my decision to help.

I am very sadden by the amount of looting, crime, etc. I think those people commiting these crimes have done that for years not just in the event of the hurricane. Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.


First of all...most of these people are poor and live from paycheck to paycheck. They don't own vehicles so it was impossible for them to pack it up and drive away to safety.

Secondly...Not everyone was looting. The same thing would happen anywhere when there is no LE to take control. Most of the people took direction and went where they were told. Then they were left to fend for themselves as if their lives had no meaning. For the people who did go into stores and take milk for their babies...diapers...food...drink...the things that they needed in order to survive...more power to them. I would have done the same thing. No one else was stepping forward to provide for their needs.
They are not going to "take control" of anything. Good grief.

I would like to see how well you could handle a disaster like this...if you had no water, food, bath, clean clothes, medicine, NOTHING. Would you want someone to say....you just sit and wait...you have no right to ask for anything or to whine when it doesn't come...for 5 days. Give me a break.

THE LOWLIFE OF NEW ORLEANS....The only comment I will make about that disgusting comment is....you should be ashamed of yourself and your high and mighty attitude.

Bobbisangel
09-03-2005, 05:00 AM
There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn thugs with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?


Why weren't the patients in the hospitals evacuated? They were sick and couldn't just get up and move on their own. Who was responsible for them?
No one counted on that Levy breaking but as old as it was it shouldn't have been a surprise.

I've listened to the mayor beg for help from the government and it was very clear that he is feeling desperate. Maybe if the mayor and every other person who holds some kind of office had been white... help would have come before the 5th day.

goody34
09-03-2005, 06:06 AM
I think you are right. Given enough income or fame, "blacks" become less "black" (in some ways) in this country. Unfortunately, class and race are nearly inseparable given our history.
You have a point Nova,
But the way I look at it no matter your race, gender, or creed, given enough income or fame the only color people see is green, the color of money.
In society today money= power.
those with money control the power, those without are controlled by those with money.

Dark Knight
09-03-2005, 06:41 AM
(AP) At one point, the evacuation was interrupted briefly when school buses rolled up so some 700 guests and employees from the Hyatt Hotel could move to the head of the evacuation line ó much to the amazement of those who had been crammed in the stinking Superdome since Sunday."How does this work? They (are) clean, they are dry, they get out ahead of us?" exclaimed Howard Blue, 22, who tried to get in their line. The National Guard blocked him as other guardsmen helped the well-dressed guests with their luggage.

The 700 had been trapped in the hotel, next to the Superdome, but conditions were considerably cleaner, even without running water, than the unsanitary crush inside the dome. The Hyatt was severely damaged by the storm. Every pane of glass on the riverside wall was blown out.

Mayor Ray Nagin has used the hotel as a base since it is across the street from city hall, and there were reports the hotel was cleared with priority to make room for police, firefighters and other officials.

National Guard Capt. John Pollard called the decision to move the Hyatt people to the head of the line "very poor."

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 08:14 AM
First of all...most of these people are poor and live from paycheck to paycheck. They don't own vehicles so it was impossible for them to pack it up and drive away to safety.

Secondly...Not everyone was looting. The same thing would happen anywhere when there is no LE to take control. Most of the people took direction and went where they were told. Then they were left to fend for themselves as if their lives had no meaning. For the people who did go into stores and take milk for their babies...diapers...food...drink...the things that they needed in order to survive...more power to them. I would have done the same thing. No one else was stepping forward to provide for their needs.
They are not going to "take control" of anything. Good grief.

I would like to see how well you could handle a disaster like this...if you had no water, food, bath, clean clothes, medicine, NOTHING. Would you want someone to say....you just sit and wait...you have no right to ask for anything or to whine when it doesn't come...for 5 days. Give me a break.

THE LOWLIFE OF NEW ORLEANS....The only comment I will make about that disgusting comment is....you should be ashamed of yourself and your high and mighty attitude.I am only going to respond to your last comment. And no I won't give you a break. To leave those innocent people among the rapists, thieves, and murderers, THE LOWLIFE, is horrible. Their not taking control, are you deaf, dumb and blind, their holding hostages, shooting at the officers. This is the last I will comment on this subject.
How ridiculous.

Marthatex
09-03-2005, 08:16 AM
[QUOTE=Linda7NJ]You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthatex
[QUOTE=less0305]EDITED

"Perhaps I should use the word "impoverished", instead of blacks. Politically correct. The "impoverished" are having a hard time down there. We in Texas are trying to do everything we can to help."

I've been noticing the elderly; they're dying. I've been watching TV all week. I've been reading the newspapers, the New York times. I am really not concerned with "words" right now. I honestly don't know how all this got started but, it is "splitting hairs".

Thank heavens many have gotten to the Astrodome and they look so happy. Some of the black men and women were interviewed and they really were greatful - "this highway rocks", or something like that. They seem like very nice people, just everyday people like you and me. One older woman yelled out something horrible about BUsh LOL. Her eyes were all swollen.

Up here in central Texas we are having around 5000 come, the last I heard. They will be getting alot of freebies from companies that are opening their doors to them. Starbucks will be giving them free water, coffee; not sure about food. The real estate developers are already donating apartments. they are going to love it up here, and will be treated great.

Already lists have been given to us about what they need - baby food and clothing, kitchen items, sheets and towels. The churches are getting involved. I hear Houston has already been terrific; had everything set up. Even Rick Perry I was impressed with on TV.

Things are looking up for these folks!

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 08:26 AM
I loved the news story about the man who found a school bus and keys and took it, loaded about 70 people on and drove them to the super dome. He is my hero and I bet to those 70 people and their families. God helps those who help themselves and others who cannot help themselves and he will be blessed. I bet he already has some good person in Houston who wants to hire him. He has one thing that you cannot teach an employee and that is character.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 08:30 AM
I loved the news story about the man who found a school bus and keys and took it, loaded about 70 people on and drove them to the super dome. He is my hero and I bet to those 70 people and their families. God helps those who help themselves and others who cannot help themselves and he will be blessed. I bet he already has some good person in Houston who wants to hire him. He has one thing that you cannot teach an employee and that is character.
I loved that story too. The other story was the man who took, I think it was 13 small children in a boat to safety. I never have heard about the safety of their mothers. How heartbreaking to have to separate from your small children.

less0305
09-03-2005, 08:42 AM
j2mirish said: I meant by the US sitting in our homes, was just we are all so upset with the tragedy, that we want things to go perfectly -- ( you know that saying....armchair quarterbacks!) I am one of the first to shout the things about our government that I feel are wrong-- Maybe I just want to feel in the bottom of my heart, that this scenario was SOOOOO HUGE--- they did not even know where to begin- Again ..does that make this right--- absolutley not--- but does it mean it was intentional...I dont think so ---I live just miles north of where hurricane charlie hit last year-- it was a 4 also- but it did not have near the dimension of Katrina-- that was a year ago- and there are still piles of trash & debri-- I cant even begin to imagine taking on the cleanup of this nightmare-[/QUOTE]


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Can't anyone admit that we are human. We are fallible. Tragedies will happen. They happen over and over and over again. Hurricanes and tragedy are cyclical. It WILL happen again - in another generation. But for right now, can't we ALL agree that humans are fallible, they make mistakes, and if we were a perfect people nothing bad would ever happen.

Sure decisions may not have been made correctly - but c'mon this was a HUGE storm that people underestimated. It seems to me to be a collassal (sp) mingling of many, many factors - a huge storm, city below sea level, massive flooding, residents who either by choice or necessity who didn't leave, a very large part of the coastline obliterated (not just NO, but three states), massive efforts from many different entitities all crying out at once, no communication to work with (much less communicating in sync with all the other affected reas). It was just a mass collection of so many unfortunate events all at once.

We'll all learn something from this.....but in 60 or 70 years will those lessons we learned mean anything to the next generation for the next HUGE tragedy? No two storms will ever be the same. How can what happened here be expected to happen exactly the same way 60 years from now? It won't. Every single situation will require its own response and efforts. And in 60 or 70 years we will still be dealing with people....people who do make mistakes, do make errors in judgement, do underestimate the wrath of mother nature. It's inevitable.

I wouldn't want to be there. I wouldn't want to have been waiting days and days for water and food, but I have faith in my country. I have faith in my people. I have faith in my government. I refuse to believe that this failure means we are a bad country with a bad government. I have ALWAYS lived by two specific lines of thinking:

Everything happens for a reason (and we may never in our lifetime know the reason - but it happens to serve a purpose).

And

When it is your time to go, it is your time to go (either by hurricane, starvation, heart attack, motorcycle accident, cancer, tumor - whatever...when God calls your name, it is time to go. PC or not, I believe in a higher God).

If that sounds bad or harsh, I'm sorry.

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 08:50 AM
very good post and my sentiments exactly.

Marthatex
09-03-2005, 08:54 AM
I loved the news story about the man who found a school bus and keys and took it, loaded about 70 people on and drove them to the super dome. He is my hero and I bet to those 70 people and their families. God helps those who help themselves and others who cannot help themselves and he will be blessed. I bet he already has some good person in Houston who wants to hire him. He has one thing that you cannot teach an employee and that is character.

Isn't that amazing! He's going to be a hero, written up in the magazines! He seemed like a great kid; calm. Life works in strange ways... or is it God works in strange ways...

The ones that make it out may find their lives the better in the future. Amazing Grace....

less0305
09-03-2005, 08:55 AM
I've listened to the mayor beg for help from the government and it was very clear that he is feeling desperate. Maybe if the mayor and every other person who holds some kind of office had been white... help would have come before the 5th day.

And yet the MAYOR sent buses to collect tourists from the Hyatt and put them AHEAD of the line at the superdome to get them out. Tourists who were not dirty, hungry, and living in the cesspool of the dome for four days were taken out on buses BEFORE those less fortunate at the MAYOR'S direction.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 09:08 AM
Several nights ago there was an interview on with some tourists from one of the hotels who were held up in a timeshare. The story went that the hotel had hired some buses to move the hotel guests out. The buses were taken to use for some of the survivors leaving the tourists stranded. The tourists interviewed were from Scotland, they were hysterical with fear of the gangs roaming the streets. Is this the same group that were moved out ahead of everyone else? I don't know, but was just wondering if thats the reason these people were given a priority ride.

Marthatex
09-03-2005, 09:09 AM
I agree with the goody who said it was more a matter of class than race. And not discrimination, but just INDIFFERENCE.

The Government knew, as we did, several days ahead that she was coming and might be at least category 3 or 4. Someone should have watching and putting everything into place - ready to go. Someone should have thought about ahead of time - how do the poor get out?

The response time should have been 1-2 days at the MOST; not 4-5 days. Where was FEMA; they were talking about it ahead of time?

These people were just left to fend for themselves; they're not all educated, they needed be told and explained why they needed to get out NOW. And provided the buses.

I am not a fatalist; I believe many tragedies can be averted. Others come by complete surprise, tho', and cannot.

Dara
09-03-2005, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by less0305
Can't anyone admit that we are human. We are fallible. Tragedies will happen. They happen over and over and over again. Hurricanes and tragedy are cyclical. It WILL happen again - in another generation. But for right now, can't we ALL agree that humans are fallible, they make mistakes, and if we were a perfect people nothing bad would ever happen.

So, we shouldn't ask questions, shouldn't try to learn. Shouldn't hold people accountable for their actions or lack thereof. Huge mistakes were made. Mistakes that were avoidable, and mistakes that would have ensured a pitiful response to even a much smaller scale distaster. As President Bush said, the response was "unacceptable." You justify it all you want. I won't.

And here's why I won't. Because if we yell and scream loud enough, maybe the people making decisions won't be incomptent. Maybe instead of a Michael Brown in charge, we'll have a Rudy Guiliani.


It was just a mass collection of so many unfortunate events all at once.
Which were predictable. That's documented all over this board. THey knew the levees could break, they knew a Cat 4 would flood the city, they knew. There's a great post in the Political Pavilion that tracks some critical decisions/events.



When it is your time to go, it is your time to go (either by hurricane, starvation, heart attack, motorcycle accident, cancer, tumor - whatever...when God calls your name, it is time to go. PC or not, I believe in a higher God). I'm sure that's a big consolation to the parents who watched their babies die of dehydration because of the governments failure to do its job.


If that sounds bad or harsh, I'm sorry. Well, to me, not so much harsh as uninformed, callous, and simplistic.

imo.

Dara
09-03-2005, 09:33 AM
And yet the MAYOR sent buses to collect tourists from the Hyatt and put them AHEAD of the line at the superdome to get them out. Tourists who were not dirty, hungry, and living in the cesspool of the dome for four days were taken out on buses BEFORE those less fortunate at the MAYOR'S direction.
Well, based on your earlier post, the mayor is just fallible and human and all of that happened for a reason.

CyberLaw
09-03-2005, 09:35 AM
I read an article today and some of the thing that it pointed out was interesting and telling.

Many people had no way out of the city. These people were not part of GB base. Which is you know is the white, affluent people. The poor, single Moms, blacks, elderly, sick, those without a car are not existing in GB eyes. Oh he knows they are there(I think)but does not acknoledge them.......

Bush got $ for Iraq real quick, but not this human diaster. I wonder what was more important to him. Do your Geograpy Bush, 1/3 of the USA oil comes from the Gulf. Oh yeah, you are not too bright. Even though if he knew this, he probably would have said OIL, get people together, I need billions of dollars to protect the Gulf OIL. Some one will TRY to point out that PEOPLE come before OIL. But oh yeah, these people are not the base of GB. When the person says "GB you have to save the People, or it will seems that you put oil before people and that is not good PR." GB will put his hands over his ears and say: "I can't hear you, la da da da, da da. I am not hearing you....."

In every society you are going to get the "dregs", they exist upon us without a crisis. These are the theives and "criminals". Honest people will take only what is needed for survival and try to help their neighbours. The dregs will prey upon people, like they would have had it there was not a Hurricane.

The second wave of Hell was after the Hurricane. That is when people thought "oh good" I am alive. I doubt they thought "oh god how am I going to stay alive, does anyone know this happened to us, if they do know, where is the help to survive the afermath..........surviving the Hurricane now seems the least of their problems, staying alive if first and foremost.

I would have looted, the necitties, food, water to ensure my family would survive the second Hell on Earth. Hopefull.......if we were in the city, I would arm myself(as a Canadian I am big time anti gun)but.......this is not a civilized city with a police force, I have to depend on myself. I would probably end up shooting my self in the foot though.......

This is what GB is concerned with these days......the elimination of ESTATE TAX, so the 20K of people who have $$$$$$$$, can pass on that money to heirs wihout taxes. This will ensure that 1.5 billion dollars is not public money anymore.......but stays private within the "wealthy" estate. This is the "base" that GB was talking about.......

But people are dying in the streets of "Hell on Earth" due to lack of food and water......

No matter how you play it, most people are taking a "racial" stance on this view.....I know last night the news in my City did and it seems to be the norm.

I am beyond disgusted.....as everyone is.......this is the USA for god sake, not a third world country........but people are dying of third world causes.....I never thought that I would live to see this happen to our neighbour to the South.

less0305
09-03-2005, 10:07 AM
Well, based on your earlier post, the mayor is just fallible and human and all of that happened for a reason.

Yep, he is. And the reasons may not be revealed to us - except to realize that everyone is capable of making erroneous decisions from the Mayor to the Governor to the President....to the folks who could very obviously see that there were other people in worse need of leaving the city, but still stepped in front of them and took a seat that might have been better given to someone else. There is enough fault to go around was my only point.

less0305
09-03-2005, 10:32 AM
Dara said: "So, we shouldn't ask questions, shouldn't try to learn. Shouldn't hold people accountable for their actions or lack thereof. Huge mistakes were made. Mistakes that were avoidable, and mistakes that would have ensured a pitiful response to even a much smaller scale distaster. As President Bush said, the response was "unacceptable." You justify it all you want. I won't.

And here's why I won't. Because if we yell and scream loud enough, maybe the people making decisions won't be incomptent. Maybe instead of a Michael Brown in charge, we'll have a Rudy Guiliani."

I never said we shouldn't ask questions. I'm asking questions. I never said we shouldn't learn. I said we'll learn, but future generations will make mistakes - we're human.

And yell and scream all you want (I'm yelling, screaming, and crying also) - but human nature is to constantly find blame and finger point and people who will love Rudy....and people who won't. There was lots and lots of people who professed their hate for Rudy after 9/11.

Dara said: "Which were predictable. That's documented all over this board. THey knew the levees could break, they knew a Cat 4 would flood the city, they knew. There's a great post in the Political Pavilion that tracks some critical decisions/events."

Yes, it was predictable. But did anyone predict that the cities of Biloxi, Gulfport, Waveland, and cities as far as Alabama would be blown off the face of the map at the exact same time? The country will never be ready for mass destruction. It can be said it's predictable that a meteor will someday hit the face of the earth....does that mean everyone will be ready to handle the devastation and be able to provide exactly what is needed at the exact moment it is provided? No. I'm only saying that we can't plan out every disaster to the nth degree and have every answer at the moment it occurs. Yeah, we're willing to learn from each event and try to do better. I'm sure we're doing better than they did in 1900 or 1901 when the hurricane struck Galveston. But Galveston wasn't a bowl below sea level either. So things are always going to be different depending on what happens, when, and where.

Dara said: "I'm sure that's a big consolation to the parents who watched their babies die of dehydration because of the governments failure to do its job."

I wouldn't have sat there for four days and let my baby die. I'd have walked my ass somewhere - if I'd have had to walk for four days. My baby wouldn't have died in my arms while I sat and waited for someone to come.

Dara said: "Well, to me, not so much harsh as uninformed, callous, and simplistic."

I'm not uninformed, callous, or simplistic, thank you. I don't think it's uninformed to say you can look at history and see human tragedy. You can look at history and see loss of lives. You can look at history and see human fallacy. It's not uninformed or callous to say it has happened in the past....it will happen in the future. It's incredibly sad - the loss of any life by means of devastation is sad. I feel an incredible sadness and helplessness - just like I'm sure you do. It's unfair of you to say I'm callous when you have no idea where I've come from....what I've been through....and how I contribute what I have and what I can do for my fellow human beings.

Dara
09-03-2005, 10:37 AM
I wouldn't have sat there for four days and let my baby die. I'd have walked my ass somewhere - if I'd have had to walk for four days. My baby wouldn't have died in my arms while I sat and waited for someone to come.
Uh huh. Guess the roving gangs of gun-wielding thugs would just cower at your bravery and will. So, I guess according to you, it's the parents' fault that the babies died. Or God's.

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 10:38 AM
NOT ALL tourists, we have over 40 still trapped in NO and the stories we are getting by the 6 who have just been rescued by our own media are quiet disturbing.

1 female aussie tourist is trapped in a church with 2 elderly people she found and helped. The elderly people had been left/abandoned by their careers. They are in wheelchairs and this young aussie got through to her mum (phone) here in aussieland and she said they cant get to the roof BUT she told her mum she cant leave them there to die. The church is surrounded by water.
Her mum was on tv and she is totally distraught, our aussie officials have been contacted and they have contacted yours BUT yours said nothing can be done yet to help.

We also, on our tv watched the rescue of the aussies from near the convention centre. It was our own media (channel 7 i think) that got in there and organised their rescue. These aussies said they could not go anywhere near where large groups where as they had been shot at and attacked. They where chased out of/away from the center. They said we were the minority it was terrifying.
They where helped into a hiding place near the center by a family of African/Americans. These people smuggled water to them 2 days ago (4 bottles for 6 people). The aussies just kept thanking that family and kept saying to the media guys ďget help for all these people please, tell everyone how bad it is hereĒ.

Also mentioned was how they witnessed rapes. The screaming of a young girl being dragged out of a building and being raped by a pack of men. The aussie lady broke down badly, she couldnít talk about it, one of the guys said total animals, some of these people are total animals, how can you do that to children. He broke down too. I broke down too just watching it.

Its just sickening what they are saying about what is going on there.
The media guys did well to get them out, an African/American police officer helped them and it showed the guns they had been given to use if they were attacked. They got it all on film and apparently your people (officials) arenít happy about it.

So please do not believe that tourists are getting special treatment as they are not ACTUALLY some are getting worse treatment as they can not even get to water or any supplies. I wont post some of the things that has been said by those rescued as people will jump and say Iím stirring the pot BUT this racism thing is going both ways as 1 of the guys said they were chased and being told what they were going to do to the ďwhiteĒ woman, well I think you can guess the rest to that.

Now even though that happened the aussies said ďget help to these peopleĒ, so please donít think they were criticizing or blaming all African/Americans because they werenít.

But boy oh boy they were criticizing your officials.

Here are some earlier links ...

Officials refused access to stranded Australians

Australian consular officials are being kept away from New Orleans at the insistence of US authorities.
The Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer says US authorities do not want foreign officials in the city until order is restored in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

Mr Downer says he understands a television crew from Australia and a British newspaper have assisted Australians in leaving the city but the well-being of up to 40 others remains unconfirmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1452548.htm

While Australia's diplomats remain locked out of New Orleans, a Seven Network television news crew has driven six Australians out of the city.
Among them was Queensland couple Tim and Joanne Miller, from Rockhampton, whose daughter Tamara said her parents were rescued "no thanks to the Australian government".

"Obviously, we now know who really does have the power these days. It's definitely not the Australian government, it's the press," she said.
The Millers were forced to sleep under a bridge in the city's warehouse district for several days.

Mr Downer questioned why the media could get into New Orleans, but not Australian officials.

"We've said, well, if the media can go in, why can't government officials go in, and we might more easily be able to round up the Australians and get them out," he said

"And (the US government is) insistent that it's their responsibility, the Americans' responsibility to take everybody out."

http://news.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=59641


~aussieblue

Dara
09-03-2005, 10:43 AM
aussieblue, thank you! I am still reading your post and will check out links, but one thing you said made me almost weak with relief:


They got it all on film and apparently your people (officials) arenít happy about it.
We need any true record we have of this disaster.

less0305
09-03-2005, 10:47 AM
[/color]
Uh huh. Guess the roving gangs of gun-wielding thugs would just cower at your bravery and will. So, I guess according to you, it's the parents' fault that the babies died. Or God's.

Good grief......

I appreciate your comments. Thanks for the healthy debate. Have a good day.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 10:54 AM
Geraldo is showing film of the last of the folks being taken to the airport, he is saying that its almost over for the abandoned. I should not use the word over, but their rescue from the convention center. This will never be over for those who suffered.

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 11:33 AM
NOT ALL tourists, we have over 40 still trapped in NO and the stories we are getting by the 6 who have just been rescued by our own media are quiet disturbing.

Officials refused access to stranded Australians

http://news.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=59641


~aussieblue

But there are so many others too....I understand your concern for your own people, but I don't think they should be gotten out ahead of the others who live there. They are in just as much danger as the tourists.

kgeaux
09-03-2005, 12:28 PM
Isn't that amazing! He's going to be a hero, written up in the magazines! He seemed like a great kid; calm. Life works in strange ways... or is it God works in strange ways...

The ones that make it out may find their lives the better in the future. Amazing Grace....

I am praying that God will richly bless this young man. What a heart he has! I loved it when Greta asked him what do you say to the people you picked up when you see them in the AstroDome and he said "I tell them I love them." Wow. I hope this young man has the BEST life, that every good thing comes to him!

LadyLuck
09-03-2005, 12:54 PM
Aussieblue, I am so sorry for what the people from your country had to go through here in the USA. I apologize for the leaders of New Orleans, La., and the USA. Please tell them that not all cities in the US are like that. I am glad that someone helped them out.

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 01:21 PM
Aussieblue, I am so sorry for what the people from your country had to go through here in the USA. I apologize for the leaders of New Orleans, La., and the USA. Please tell them that not all cities in the US are like that. I am glad that someone helped them out.

New Orleans was a wonderful city.....it was simply an overwhelming disaster. I am sorry the tourists got caught up in this, but it could have happened ANYWHERE. Blame the thugs not the good citizens. I think you referenced people who DID help.

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 01:46 PM
But there are so many others too....I understand your concern for your own people, but I don't think they should be gotten out ahead of the others who live there. They are in just as much danger as the tourists.

I think your missing something here
They ONLY GOT OUT because OUR OWN MEDIA took them out.
Not your people, they didnít get them out. ACTUALLY they abandoned them there.

A group was on a bus tour. When the evacuation started before Katrina hit the bus company (the one the tourists where with) left the tourists stranded there. These tourists arenít just aussies, they are from all over BUT they are tourists.

The aussies said they couldnít get help anywhere, couldnít get a rental car, couldnít get on any buses, nothing. They even went to the LE etc etc. They didnít even know how to get around the city, they are tourists, strangers to that city. This was before Katrina hit even.

They road out the storm then afterwards that had to try and make their way to the convention center. Thatís where they where told to go by the police.
They got there and thugs attacked them, they got run out.

They have said they owe there lives to a AA family who found them a safe place to hide from the mobs of thugs and also to the aussie media guys with the help of a police officer who smuggled them out. One aussie said "we were in the minority group that these thugs were targeting, Im not a racist colour doesnt matter to me BUT it did to these thugs".

So what I am trying to say in my posts and im trying to say it without being accused of being a racist or something (because i am not) IS these thugs are targeting and having fun doing so in attacking white/european what ever you want to call them, people. The aussie were even told by the police officer NOT TO go out of their hiding spot because these gangs where targeting whites and he was a AA police guy.

BTW in an earlier posts i did state that these aussies where frantic and saying get help in here for these people. So even after what they had gone through they were still screaming out for help for the NO people.

These people were only rescued today, so they certainly didnít jump any queues oh and remember they were rescued by OUR OWN MEDIA. Oh and also there are still 40 trapped there

These mobs seem to have your attitude bulletgirl2002 as well as that tourist company. Since the tourists arenít N O residents they shouldnít be helped.

Its a good thing we aussie donít think like that because if we did those Americans injured in the Bali bombings that we aussies airlifted out, housed, treated for injuries, took into our hospitals and even operated on PLUS flew free of charge parents/loved ones from America so they could be here with their injured loved ones to support them.
We didnít say Aussies only, we just said "get on the plane". We had people from all countries here, we didnít bother with red tape we put the people first ALL people.

We did the same when the Tsunami hit, since we are close to these regions our aide got there quickly (my sister was there 12 hours after it hit, medical). We didnít discriminate when it came to helping people, we donít go by colour nationality whatever and we especially donít turn our backs on tourists who are in need of help in my country.

~aussieblue

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 02:38 PM
Aussieblue, I am so sorry for what the people from your country had to go through here in the USA. I apologize for the leaders of New Orleans, La., and the USA. Please tell them that not all cities in the US are like that. I am glad that someone helped them out.


Ladyluck,

Please believe me there is NO NEED for you to apologize.

I am sitting here and I am only angry BECAUSE some have posted that tourists should not have gotten out before the others.

I have posted about the aussies who got out today, I posted that these aussies where saying get the N.O people help, they where begging for help for them.
These people where NOT blaming all the N.O people. I posted that they called these groups thugs who where attacking people.

I also posted that OUR media got them out, so how can posters complain about special treatment for the tourists when its our own people organising for them to get out.
Do you want us to sit there and wait for your lot to get us out.
BTW in one of the articles it states our government is furious because your government will not allow any of our aussie agencies into the area to help evacuate.
BUT they let in our media and others hmmmmmmmm do you see what im getting at here. They let our media in BUT not any government agencies!! So what do they (media) do 1st, they go find some of our aussies and they got them out of there.

Now it seems that your lot (government) are pissed at our media???????? Why is that i wonder??????????
We have other aussies still trapped in buildings (a church and a hotel that they know of).
Tourists that dont know the area's etc how are they suppose to go find the help if they donít know the city etc BUT posters here are complaining about them getting special treatment sheeeesh

Im not sitting here trashing america, my heart breaks for all the people effected BUT lets face it your government/officials/what ever have stuffed this rescue effort badly and why should tourists from any country be put at risk by this stuff up. These tourists were stranded there, they didnít get the choice of getting out.

Theyíve got through the storm, through the floods and now there biggest danger is those thugs who are enjoying hunting down the minority groups.

Please remember Iím not saying all the people there are thugs and YES I know others are in danger too.

Im going to be jumped on badly for this BUT i find it so very sad that in such a disaster as this, your own people are killing and raping your own people.

I watched an interview with a Swedish (i think) guy who got evacuated out and he said he would never had thought that americans would act like they are doing towards each other and others. He was talking about the shootings, fighting and rapes.

BTW the prisoners from that jail were taken out/rescued before people from the dome and convention center were.
WHY??????
Why didnít the just chuck them on some isolated spot. Why were they bused out before those stranded???????

I havenít heard 1 complaint about them getting out before the others BUT thereís complaints about the tourists.

My apologies ladyluck, i addressed your post at 1st but now ive wondered from your post. This is not directed at you personally, its an open post.

Sorry its very late here 4am.

~aussieblue

Mabel
09-03-2005, 02:46 PM
The looting and violence are being blamed mainly on members of three large gangs that reeked havock in NO prior to this disaster. These men (have to call them something) are filled with anger at the world and are, no doubt, directing much of that anger at white people. It has occured to me that whites, being in the minority in this disaster, are likely being targeted by these thugs. Aussie's post is not surprising to me.

I just hope that the rest of the world understands that most Americans, regardless of color, are not racists. Nor are they violent. I hope the fact that it was a black family that helped the tourists is noted.

I'm sorry for what your fellow countrymen have suffered, Aussie.

On the same subject, has anyone else noticed how hard CNN is working to turn this into a racial matter? I swear that idiot I watched last night (still don't know his name) was practically egging on one of his black guests, trying to get her to say that the blacks in this country are blaming the white people for the situation. And why they heck is Jessie Jackson's face all over CNN? He's not part of this.

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 02:52 PM
New Orleans was a wonderful city.....it was simply an overwhelming disaster. I am sorry the tourists got caught up in this, but it could have happened ANYWHERE. Blame the thugs not the good citizens. I think you referenced people who DID help.

I think if you read my posts bulletgirl2002 I DID NOT blame everyone and I DID state that i am not bashing america.

I do criticise your governments/officals stuffed up plans/evacuation/rescues etc

Ive posted about what ive been watching on our tv from the aussie tourists who were rescued today AND i even stated that they were saying get the N O people help, even after what they have endured there in N O.
So how you can come about that i am blaming everyone is beyond me.

BTW it was you though who complained about the tourists getting out before the residents.
So i guess its ok to complain about the tourists BUT we arent allowed to complain about how the tourists were treated. OK i get how it goes now.

~aussieblue

~aussieblue

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 03:19 PM
The looting and violence are being blamed mainly on members of three large gangs that reeked havock in NO prior to this disaster. These men (have to call them something) are filled with anger at the world and are, no doubt, directing much of that anger at white people. It has occured to me that whites, being in the minority in this disaster, are likely being targeted by these thugs. Aussie's post is not surprising to me.

I just hope that the rest of the world understands that most Americans, regardless of color, are not racists. Nor are they violent. I hope the fact that it was a black family that helped the tourists is noted.

I'm sorry for what your fellow countrymen have suffered, Aussie.

On the same subject, has anyone else noticed how hard CNN is working to turn this into a racial matter? I swear that idiot I watched last night (still don't know his name) was practically egging on one of his black guests, trying to get her to say that the blacks in this country are blaming the white people for the situation. And why they heck is Jessie Jackson's face all over CNN? He's not part of this.

Thank you mabel, look i've been trying to say what was said on our tv tonight and ive made a mess of it because im trying not to sound like a bigot or that im blaming all african/americans for all the trouble.

Our aussies werent even blaming all african/americans ( am i even saying that right lol) BUT they did say these thugs were hunting down (and at first the guy on tv said minority groups).
He was very frantic when he was talking, they all were. When they started talking about the rapes he said that the thugs were screaming out about getting whitey women. These aussies as well as some others (european tourists) ended up staying together for protection BUT he said they couldnt stay with the others (N O people) at the center because they were getting threatened etc.

They were moving from some place when some thugs started attacking. There was no police there, there was nothing.
The police have even told the tourists stay in hiding dont come out because of these groups wouldnt hesitate to kill them. But the guy said on tv, so we had to stay put and we couldnt even get water or anything PLUS we didnt even know where to get it or how to get to places where they were evacuating people.

The police just left them basicly because they were getting attacked too. The aussie said it is total havoc and the thugs are running it.
One of the guys said "these thugs are animals, they are raping children, the elderly, they are hunting people and all for the fun of it".

He just kept stating get those innocent people out of there.

In no way was these tourists bagging all americans and im not either.

~aussieblue

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 03:30 PM
The looting and violence are being blamed mainly on members of three large gangs that reeked havock in NO prior to this disaster. These men (have to call them something) are filled with anger at the world and are, no doubt, directing much of that anger at white people. It has occured to me that whites, being in the minority in this disaster, are likely being targeted by these thugs. Aussie's post is not surprising to me.

I just hope that the rest of the world understands that most Americans, regardless of color, are not racists. Nor are they violent. I hope the fact that it was a black family that helped the tourists is noted.

I'm sorry for what your fellow countrymen have suffered, Aussie.

On the same subject, has anyone else noticed how hard CNN is working to turn this into a racial matter? I swear that idiot I watched last night (still don't know his name) was practically egging on one of his black guests, trying to get her to say that the blacks in this country are blaming the white people for the situation. And why they heck is Jessie Jackson's face all over CNN? He's not part of this.


Oh no, Jessie's there now? I only snicker because I was sooooo waiting for him to pop up in Crawford during out little Crawford adventure...we got Rev. Sharpton, and he raced to/from Camp Casey in his limo (until the driver got arrested!)

Is Jessie actually hitting the ground and helping with the rescue efforts, or is he also doing just a lookie-loo and saying spin, and then going back in his chauffered auto and staying in a nice cozy hotel? (Trying to stay out of the political arena here, but it does work both ways, ya know.)

Mabel
09-03-2005, 03:33 PM
Oh no, Jessie's there now? I only snicker because I was sooooo waiting for him to pop up in Crawford during out little Crawford adventure...we got Rev. Sharpton, and he raced to/from Camp Casey in his limo (until the driver got arrested!)

Is Jessie actually hitting the ground and helping with the rescue efforts, or is he also doing just a lookie-loo and saying spin, and then going back in his chauffered auto and staying in a nice cozy hotel? (Trying to stay out of the political arena here, but it does work both ways, ya know.)

I don't know that he's actually anywhere near the disaster area. He was wearing his nice crisp well tailored suit, spouting his usual racial nonsense, and reassuring people via satellite that things will get better. I absolutely can not stand the man.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 03:35 PM
I don't know that he's actually anywhere near the disaster area. He was wearing his nice crisp well tailored suit, spouting his usual racial nonsense, and reassuring people via satellite that things will get better. I absolutely can not stand the man.


Don't tell anyone, but...neither can I :silenced:

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 04:05 PM
I think if you read my posts bulletgirl2002 I DID NOT blame everyone and I DID state that i am not bashing america.

I do criticise your governments/officals stuffed up plans/evacuation/rescues etc

Ive posted about what ive been watching on our tv from the aussie tourists who were rescued today AND i even stated that they were saying get the N O people help, even after what they have endured there in N O.
So how you can come about that i am blaming everyone is beyond me.

BTW it was you though who complained about the tourists getting out before the residents.
So i guess its ok to complain about the tourists BUT we arent allowed to complain about how the tourists were treated. OK i get how it goes now.

~aussieblue

~aussieblue
Yes, I did complain about healthy tourist people getting out before the residents who were sick and elderly. Is that fair???? I think it was handled horribly. The tourists are all out and still many of the residents are not. So what do they have to complain about?

KrazyKollector
09-03-2005, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=pardilia]
The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.
QUOTE]

First of all, New Orleans is surround by incredibly affluent, porcelain white suburbs. It's not all black.

Secondly, there is a BIG flaw in your theory. New Orleans is a MAJOR PORT. It is INCREDIBLY important to the oil and gas industry. The entire country is taking a big, big hit financially because of the destruction of New Orleans. Have you seen gas stations closing down because there is no more gas in the pumps? Heard the stories of the rising prices of gas? (By the way, we aint seen nothing yet, guys.)

The sooner those who are stranded in New Orleans are evacuated, the sooner the cleanup can begin and the sooner that port is back online. Major, major financial reason to get it done as quickly as possible.GREAT posts kgeaux! ITA! I don't consider this a race issue at all. I think it's just another way to politicize the situation. I'm waiting with dread to see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton screaming from the podiums.

ALL levels of government failed but the brunt lies at the state and local level. They had a prison that flooded for crying out loud! Where did they think they were going to put them? Did some get out? Are they the ones having a field day shooting at rescuers? I heard on CNN that some rescuers were trapped in a building because of the gunfire and a firefighter had been shot. He isn't the only one either, if memory serves.

Dropping food and water via copter to the CC or SD would only work if the people let it. They shot at the copters, so it wouldn't be above my imagination that they could try and down the copter when it is dropping supplies. It just can't "drop them, it has to lower them and you have to have people unhook it and not try and jump on the pallets thinking it's their way out.

In a nutshell, I am tired of the race card being dealt like a royal flush. It's gotten old and it divides, not unites. :doh: on me--that's why it's dealt! Silly me. :rolleyes:

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 04:09 PM
Ladyluck,

Please believe me there is NO NEED for you to apologize.

I am sitting here and I am only angry BECAUSE some have posted that tourists should not have gotten out before the others.
~aussieblue

I still don't understand why you think the tourists should have priority???? I am not attacking you, but can you explain why you feel that way?

KrazyKollector
09-03-2005, 04:14 PM
Here's something (http://o-dub.com/images/looter.jpg) some might find interesting. Note the different captions, and note the different race of the people in the pictures.Since the second sentence makes no grammatical sense, I have to assume it's been altered. Perhaps by those dealing the race card royal flush?

Details
09-03-2005, 04:19 PM
They road out the storm then afterwards that had to try and make their way to the convention center. Thatís where they where told to go by the police.
They got there and thugs attacked them, they got run out.

They have said they owe there lives to a AA family who found them a safe place to hide from the mobs of thugs and also to the aussie media guys with the help of a police officer who smuggled them out. One aussie said "we were in the minority group that these thugs were targeting, Im not a racist colour doesnt matter to me BUT it did to these thugs".

So what I am trying to say in my posts and im trying to say it without being accused of being a racist or something (because i am not) IS these thugs are targeting and having fun doing so in attacking white/european what ever you want to call them, people. The aussie were even told by the police officer NOT TO go out of their hiding spot because these gangs where targeting whites and he was a AA police guy.Yeah, I noticed when they were showing some buses at the Astrodome that the buses seemed to be segregated - most of them were all black, then there was a group that was all white. From all I've seen on the news, New Orleans seems to me to have been a very sick city. Might be a very good thing to have everyone dispersed to see how other cities work.

I read a very troubling bit from an elderly black woman who was talking about being passed over for rescue by a black national guard troup, then helped by a white woman - it was odd - she seemed to be angry at whites because the black (she described them this way) national guardsmen didn't stop to help her, but when she did get help from a white woman, she just thought, OK, there's one white person who exists who isn't racist... I don't know if it's a difference of the South or what, but this all seems so odd to me - and I have had black friends with whom I've had very in depth conversations about race and racism - and none of them thought the way this woman did. I can only assume it's the environment there that is very antagonistic.

Add that to the reports of what those sick looters are doing, the rapes, murders in a dying city, firing at rescuers - it's unbelievable.

New Orleans just seems like a sick place in general - so much racism trouble, so much poverty, such lower than animal behavior from the gangs, so much stupid political inefficiency, corruption - I'd never want it to happen this way, but with what the floodwaters revealled, I think it may be best that New Orleans never again is reborn as it was before. The culture there is sick - dispersing it to see other ways of existing might help heal it.

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 04:22 PM
Since the second sentence makes no grammatical sense, I have to assume it's been altered. Perhaps by those dealing the race card royal flush?
Yes, it really pisses me off when people bring race into the equation here. We can't do anything about the demographics of New Orleans. When 70% of the residents are Black, most of the victims will be black. The hurricaine and water didn t care. Both killed black and white. I think a lot of the atrocities are being committed by gangs who happen to be black gangs. They were kept in check with the threat of LE in the past, but now are reveling in being able to kill, steal and rape.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 04:24 PM
That was an interesting find. I am wondering what the date of the second photo was. I hope everybody ate every thing they could loot or find however you want to put it. Those gangs in there have caused all the problems for everyone.

KrazyKollector
09-03-2005, 04:32 PM
Look. I lived in Baton Rouge, and the blacks lived right down the street from me in shacks. So I've LIVED IT.
I thought I was trying to say I try very hard not to be prejudiced of a group. But I fully understand the culture differences.

I am a Southern Lady, but a rare old-tyme democrat. I am just trying to repeat what I'm hearing about looters and so forth. I don't mean to offend anyone; I'm calling it like it is. Like a reporter.

But as always happens to me, when I try to be honest, things get "snitty" and I get in tears and just don't want to post anymore. My blood pressure is high enough already. If y'all don't want reporting and what they're saying in the hosptials here, fine. I'll shut up.

Thank you, Ntegrity! :) (why in the world should we be fighting and picking on each other when we're just trying to figure out a horrible tragedy. Give me a break)I thought your post was just fine. I totally understand what you were saying too. There ARE cultural differences. Jeeze Louise! In fact, every city, state and country in the world has it's "thing". Chicago pizza, NYC cheesecake, Englands fish and chips and Yorkshire pudding.

The people in NO have a unique blended culture. It is centuries in the making and not diluted over the years, as other cultures have done. Many, if not most of the black people in NO have a different culture than the black people living in Boston or NYC. The Cajun people are culturally different from the "old time" Southern ladies.

Every comment that mentions a difference between cultures or races is not a golden opportunity to throw down the race card.

Build a bridge and get over it already. :boohoo:

Mabel
09-03-2005, 04:39 PM
Since the second sentence makes no grammatical sense, I have to assume it's been altered. Perhaps by those dealing the race card royal flush?

I agree. The caption for the second picture has definitely been altered. Someone is trying to stir up trouble.

Linda7NJ
09-03-2005, 04:43 PM
I agree. The caption for the second picture has definitely been altered. Someone is trying to stir up trouble.
It hasn't been altered!

Someone posted it here and must have sent to to MSNBC because the next day they did a story using the exact same media photos & captions.

Ntegrity
09-03-2005, 04:49 PM
Bush got $ for Iraq real quick, but not this human diaster.
You have your "facts" wrong. Maybe you should read this (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/09/20050901-5.html). The president ordered federal funding the next day. By September 1, he requested an additional $10.5 billion from Congress as an interim amount, with more to follow. Your entire post is the usual anti-Bush propaganda I hear from all the other socialists.

KrazyKollector
09-03-2005, 04:57 PM
I loved the news story about the man who found a school bus and keys and took it, loaded about 70 people on and drove them to the super dome. He is my hero and I bet to those 70 people and their families. God helps those who help themselves and others who cannot help themselves and he will be blessed. I bet he already has some good person in Houston who wants to hire him. He has one thing that you cannot teach an employee and that is character.I liked that also. He obviously has common sense and proactive thinking. I hope he gets a lot of opportunities to become all he can be.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 05:20 PM
I have found the information on families of New Orleans extremely interesting. I plan on doing some reading on their past.

KrazyKollector
09-03-2005, 05:21 PM
It hasn't been altered!

Someone posted it here and must have sent to to MSNBC because the next day they did a story using the exact same media photos & captions.I don't really care if MSNBC runs a 12 hour program on it.
The second caption makes no grammatical sense. The word "finding" doesn't fit.

As Johnny C says, "If it doesn't fit, you must aquit!"

Unless someone hands me the original copy, I will continue to say and say again, "it's been altered".

Linda7NJ
09-03-2005, 05:23 PM
I don't really care if MSNBC runs a 12 hour program on it.
The second caption makes no grammatical sense. The word "finding" doesn't fit.

As Johnny C says, "If it doesn't fit, you must aquit!"

Unless someone hands me the original copy, I will continue to say and say again, "it's been altered".
I found the post with complete with links either here or at CTV. It has it's own thread and you can click the links and see for yourself

Mabel
09-03-2005, 05:27 PM
I don't really care if MSNBC runs a 12 hour program on it.
The second caption makes no grammatical sense. The word "finding" doesn't fit.

As Johnny C says, "If it doesn't fit, you must aquit!"

Unless someone hands me the original copy, I will continue to say and say again, "it's been altered".


I blew it up in Paint shop pro. The pixels around the word "finding" are out of line with the rest of the text. It was altered at some point. Plus, as you said, the grammer is so obviously wrong.

Details
09-03-2005, 05:31 PM
Looking at if the response would be different if the people were white, or weathy or both - I'm wondering if the situation would be the same anywhere other than NO - not blaming this on race, perhaps somewhat income related (but poverty could be related to the lack of control of gangs - they can really hurt a community's economy), but mainly related to the gangs there; how many people there turn to this repulsive behavior.

I'm no expert, this is a nearly unprecedented disaster here, but here or elsewhere in the world have we had anything similar to this?
ďThere is rapes going on here. Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats.Ē ? Added on to the non-survival-looting (which always happens, but seems to be worse than usual in this case), firing at relief workers, attacking hospitals, etc. I don't have any solid ideas about why this place is worse than others, but I can't think of when I've seen anything remotely like this, here in America, nor most anywhere else around the world (other than in ethnic cleansing wars, but that's not the same thing).

KrazyKollector
09-03-2005, 05:33 PM
I blew it up in Paint shop pro. The pixels around the word "finding" are out of line with the rest of the text. It was altered at some point. Plus, as you said, the grammer is so obviously wrong.Very good! A true websleuther in action!
I have no clue how to go about running paintshop, so I really like seeing it in action.
:clap:

Details
09-03-2005, 07:32 PM
More on the situation at the Superdome: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9166349/



"Last night was the worst night of my life," Seaton added. "This man up here, well, he was trying to choke this little boy. They whipped him down. Then they threw him over the railing."

Several others in the crowd ó shoulder-to-shoulder, desperate-looking ó nodded in assent. Sure enough, at the bottom of the railing lay a prostrate figure sprawled on the concrete, twisted and motionless, the side of his face grown like cantaloupe. It was not clear if it was the same person Seaton was referring to or another victim, in some way, of Hurricane Katrina.
....
"I don't believe they would have put blacks and whites together up on this roof," Seaton said. "Might have started a revolution." He leaned across the rope as he offered that sociological insight.It's so out of control up there - why is a random guy trying to choke a little kid? Why is it so racial that whites and blacks cannot be mixed in refugee centers?

I've never been to New Orleans - is it really that bad there? Is this really what some of the people are like?

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 07:42 PM
More on the situation at the Superdome: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9166349/

It's so out of control up there - why is a random guy trying to choke a little kid? Why is it so racial that whites and blacks cannot be mixed in refugee centers?

I've never been to New Orleans - is it really that bad there? Is this really what some of the people are like?
Isn't that yesterdays news? I thought they had it cleared out by now.

Details
09-03-2005, 07:49 PM
What difference does it make what day it happened? What kind of people act like this?

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 08:04 PM
What difference does it make what day it happened? What kind of people act like this?
You may have to direct that question to a phychiatrist who understands what makes human being tick.

I have really enjoyed some of your posts.

Details
09-03-2005, 08:09 PM
You may have to direct that question to a phychiatrist who understands what makes human being tick.

I have really enjoyed some of your posts.Thanks.

What seems odd to me is just that there have been comparable disasters in the rest of the world, and I've never seen anything like this. So, it has to be something about the people - is it the presence of those 3 strong gangs (and why haven't the cops taken care of that long ago)? Is it something about the culture there that has people thinking that only when the police are watching do ethics apply? I just want to know what is wrong with all those people who are doing these things?

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 08:13 PM
Thanks.

What seems odd to me is just that there have been comparable disasters in the rest of the world, and I've never seen anything like this. So, it has to be something about the people - is it the presence of those 3 strong gangs (and why haven't the cops taken care of that long ago)? Is it something about the culture there that has people thinking that only when the police are watching do ethics apply? I just want to know what is wrong with all those people who are doing these things?Gangs, criminal element, every large city has them. We just had this opened up in our faces. I don't think it has anything to do with area at all.

less0305
09-03-2005, 08:14 PM
Thanks.

- is it the presence of those 3 strong gangs (and why haven't the cops taken care of that long ago)?

I watched a documentary once that said the N.O. police department was one of the most, if not THE most, corrupt police department in the U.S. and about how they've tried to correct that situation in recent years.

Details
09-03-2005, 08:17 PM
Gangs, criminal element, every large city has them. We just had this opened up in our faces. I don't think it has anything to do with area at all.I'm just not convinced. We've had plenty of other large disasters in big cities with gangs and criminals. The police and rescue have often taken a few days to get to a point where things are fairly under control. But nothing like this. The big earthquakes in San Fran and LA, hurricanes in Florida, etc.; the Turkish earthquake was as big or bigger than this, and more overwhelming, since there was no warning and they aren't as organized. The Tsunami - I mean, the rebels that do horrible things in attacking the government and trying to take over the country had better control of themselves than in this case.

Details
09-03-2005, 08:18 PM
I watched a documentary once that said the N.O. police department was one of the most, if not THE most, corrupt police department in the U.S. and about how they've tried to correct that situation in recent years.If they let these 3 gangs grow to this size, they're sure the most incompetent police.

I keep thinking that in a lot of ways, this may be a positive thing, for the survivors. It just keeps sounding like a very sick city.

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 08:24 PM
If they let these 3 gangs grow to this size, they're sure the most incompetent police.

I keep thinking that in a lot of ways, this may be a positive thing, for the survivors. It just keeps sounding like a very sick city.
They have gangs in every large city...the same would have happened if this had been in LA. It was a different type of city. Lots of wonderful food, music, history. Unfortunately a lot of poverty, crime, dangerous gangs. The NO police are some of the lowest paid in the nation. They start at $25,508k a year. Only Detriot has a higher poverty rate than NO. When you have poverty you have crime....fact of life. As far as it being a sick city, I got lost in the Atlanta project area one time and was scared to death. I told one of my black friends and she said I would have been scared too. So it isn't about being white and being in a dangerous area. Black people are fearful of these areas too. It is just dangerous to be in high crime areas for anyone.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 08:26 PM
I'm just not convinced. We've had plenty of other large disasters in big cities with gangs and criminals. The police and rescue have often taken a few days to get to a point where things are fairly under control. But nothing like this. The big earthquakes in San Fran and LA, hurricanes in Florida, etc.; the Turkish earthquake was as big or bigger than this, and more overwhelming, since there was no warning and they aren't as organized. The Tsunami - I mean, the rebels that do horrible things in attacking the government and trying to take over the country had better control of themselves than in this case.
I live in a city that got hit by Frances and Jeanne, we do not have a population crowded into a small area like New Orleans. Something like that could not happen here, south in a larger city perhaps like Miami with their large population. I found the other posters comment about the LE in New Orleans interesting. I imagine as time goes on more information will surface. In the meantime we can only guess. To try to analyze this without facts to rely on is difficult.

Linda7NJ
09-03-2005, 08:28 PM
If they let these 3 gangs grow to this size, they're sure the most incompetent police.

I keep thinking that in a lot of ways, this may be a positive thing, for the survivors. It just keeps sounding like a very sick city.
Until the gang memebers put down their guns to hop on a bus headed for.............?

Dark Knight
09-03-2005, 08:29 PM
More on the situation at the Superdome: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9166349/

It's so out of control up there - why is a random guy trying to choke a little kid? Why is it so racial that whites and blacks cannot be mixed in refugee centers?

I've never been to New Orleans - is it really that bad there? Is this really what some of the people are like?
Because of all the occult and voodoo that goes on in NO, and it's reputation as one of the most "haunted" cities in the world, made this quote jump out at me from that article:

"It was like demons were here last night," Tinisha Green said. "Every time you tried to sleep, you popped up because people were messing with people's children in there. I mean, Lord Jesus, my mind is so messed up behind all of this."

If any evil spirits that have been bright in via the occult activity were also displaced due to the storm (even spirits wouldn't live under water, probably) I imagine they'd have to go somewhere...Superdome, etc. And no, it isn't as crazy as it sounds, lol! :)

Magnum PI
09-03-2005, 08:31 PM
Thank you mabel, look i've been trying to say what was said on our tv tonight and ive made a mess of it because im trying not to sound like a bigot or that im blaming all african/americans for all the trouble.

Our aussies werent even blaming all african/americans ( am i even saying that right lol) BUT they did say these thugs were hunting down (and at first the guy on tv said minority groups).
He was very frantic when he was talking, they all were. When they started talking about the rapes he said that the thugs were screaming out about getting whitey women. These aussies as well as some others (european tourists) ended up staying together for protection BUT he said they couldnt stay with the others (N O people) at the center because they were getting threatened etc.

They were moving from some place when some thugs started attacking. There was no police there, there was nothing.
The police have even told the tourists stay in hiding dont come out because of these groups wouldnt hesitate to kill them. But the guy said on tv, so we had to stay put and we couldnt even get water or anything PLUS we didnt even know where to get it or how to get to places where they were evacuating people.

The police just left them basicly because they were getting attacked too. The aussie said it is total havoc and the thugs are running it.
One of the guys said "these thugs are animals, they are raping children, the elderly, they are hunting people and all for the fun of it".

He just kept stating get those innocent people out of there.

In no way was these tourists bagging all americans and im not either.

~aussieblueAussieblue, I have friends in NO that told me that, during a "festive" occasion, things got out of hand, and the word went out.."All whites off the streets" in a certain area. This was 15 years ago. There is a terrible race problem in NO, as well as other areas. I am NOT a racist, but this is the hard reality we face there. Have you ever been to St. Thomas, Vi? If you are not a well heeled tourist, or a local with some saavy, you may not like the scene. Ever been called "the white devil?" I compare this mentality to the scene in NO. It is no secret that some places are "off limits" to whites, especially after dark. I have no answers or excuses for this, as you probably don't for the way the Abboriganies(sp?) were treated earlier in your country. I can only hope that events like this make us all pause, and think about what can be done to keep insane events like this from happening. We live on an ever shrinking, small planet. Learning to live together requires we listen to our higher spirits. Hopefully this will happen before we just kill each other off for no good reason...mpi

Details
09-03-2005, 08:41 PM
Until the gang memebers put down their guns to hop on a bus headed for.............?Somewhere where the cops are better, and they'll be outnumbered, and not in the society they are used to manipulating. Magnum PI's post seems to fit what we are seeing - they won't find the same stuff so easy to pull elsewhere.

Details
09-03-2005, 09:09 PM
Aussieblue, I have friends in NO that told me that, during a "festive" occasion, things got out of hand, and the word went out.."All whites off the streets" in a certain area. This was 15 years ago. There is a terrible race problem in NO, as well as other areas. I am NOT a racist, but this is the hard reality we face there. Have you ever been to St. Thomas, Vi? If you are not a well heeled tourist, or a local with some saavy, you may not like the scene. Ever been called "the white devil?" I compare this mentality to the scene in NO. It is no secret that some places are "off limits" to whites, especially after dark. I have no answers or excuses for this, as you probably don't for the way the Abboriganies(sp?) were treated earlier in your country. I can only hope that events like this make us all pause, and think about what can be done to keep insane events like this from happening. We live on an ever shrinking, small planet. Learning to live together requires we listen to our higher spirits. Hopefully this will happen before we just kill each other off for no good reason...mpiThanks for the info MPI - this just didn't seem to be ordinary human behavior - there had to be some reason.

concernedperson
09-03-2005, 09:11 PM
OK, I will post something controversial. Not only are NO cops hardnosed and sometimes indifferent they are subject to political scrutiny. There is a lot of corruption statewide not just in NO but NO has been the largest city and boasted the largest revenue for a long time.It is no doubt that some cops committed suicide when things got totally out of their hands and no hands were helping them.People taught to live within their parameters not live outside the box.

I am just being human and looking at something that I have lived while there.The fault IMO is long standing.The corruption goes back in history and look at Huey Long and his machine. That is Louisiana politics, build the machine.They are really good at looking the other way when it doesn't suit them. You could draw parellals if you wish.

Details
09-03-2005, 09:14 PM
I wonder how bribeable the cops are... could explain why they couldn't get a handle on the gangs.

less0305
09-03-2005, 09:20 PM
I wonder how bribeable the cops are... could explain why they couldn't get a handle on the gangs.

Supposedly it was easy before a Chief Pennington came and he was the man they brought in to clean up the police department. I think they say he did a bang up job of it. I wonder if he's still the Police Chief there - I can't remember the name of the chief during all this hurricane coverage.

bulletgirl2002
09-03-2005, 09:23 PM
I don't think he is anymore. I can't remember the name of the Police Chief. He did clean up the police force during the 90s though and the NO police force was very corrupt and bribable before he came.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-03-2005, 09:30 PM
The son of an acquaintance of mine is a NO officer. First name Casey, 32 years old, ex-Marine. I believe he's been in NO since '96 or '98. I posted a few days ago about him, his mother had not heard from him since before Kat hit. But! She and others did see him in a photo on Yahoo on Tuesday, so she knew he was okay up until then.

She finally received her first call from him this morning before noon, he is fine, tired but not hungry, LOL. HE HAD TO ASK HIS MOM WHAT'S BEEN COVERED ON THE NEWS ABOUT THE DOZENS OF COPS THAT HAVE QUIT, ETC. He said they were hearing rumors about it, but didn't know how true it was, from wherever they are working. He said if it's true, like they were hearing, the guys that stayed would be pretty dam* mad at those that left the others in a lurch. At one time on Wednesday, they were out of ammo, but were okay on Thursday. (I'm not sure WHY they were out of ammo?) His last words were that it worse than what you probably think, but that a lot of good IS being done.

Beyond Belief
09-03-2005, 09:32 PM
Didn't we hear via the news that alot of prisoners were released from jail because they didn't have time to move them and the jail wasn't safe?

Dark Knight
09-03-2005, 09:33 PM
What happened with the inmates who took hostages right after the storm??

concernedperson
09-03-2005, 09:40 PM
Supposedly it was easy before a Chief Pennington came and he was the man they brought in to clean up the police department. I think they say he did a bang up job of it. I wonder if he's still the Police Chief there - I can't remember the name of the chief during all this hurricane coverage.

He is in Atlanta now.

T'sNana
09-03-2005, 10:05 PM
What happened with the inmates who took hostages right after the storm?? I wondered about them as well.

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 10:19 PM
Aussieblue, I have friends in NO that told me that, during a "festive" occasion, things got out of hand, and the word went out.."All whites off the streets" in a certain area. This was 15 years ago. There is a terrible race problem in NO, as well as other areas. I am NOT a racist, but this is the hard reality we face there. Have you ever been to St. Thomas, Vi? If you are not a well heeled tourist, or a local with some saavy, you may not like the scene. Ever been called "the white devil?" I compare this mentality to the scene in NO. It is no secret that some places are "off limits" to whites, especially after dark. I have no answers or excuses for this, as you probably don't for the way the Abboriganies(sp?) were treated earlier in your country. I can only hope that events like this make us all pause, and think about what can be done to keep insane events like this from happening. We live on an ever shrinking, small planet. Learning to live together requires we listen to our higher spirits. Hopefully this will happen before we just kill each other off for no good reason...mpi

Well Magnum pi you'd have to go WAY BACK in our history to see the style of descrimination we are seeing on our tv stations here PLUS hearing from our own people who have been trapped in there . We are after all in the year 2005 and i can tell you in a state of emergency we do not leave/abandon the elderly/the ill/the disabled/the low incomers, the poor.
We also do not turn on our own and rape and kill.
This is not a racism issue this is total discrimination against those minority groups.

The aussies who have gotten out have spoken of all the disabled who have just been dumped and about all the elderly just left to defend themselves.

There is an aussie girl trapped in a church still, she went to the aid of a couple of elderly people in wheel chairs, this was when she was trying to get to the dome as instructed. This was after the storm hit. The waters rose so quickly but she got them into a church. She got a phone call to her mum, told her mum what has happened and that she cant get the people to the roof, she also said "the careers just left these people to die mum and i cant do that, try to get us help". They have no water no food.

Her mum has been on our news and she is frantic, calls have been made to washington and she was told theres nothing that can be done just now. Our gov has been told to stay out, we cant go in to help.
Well actually we have done it sneakedly. Our media is allowed in so they have been searching for tourists to help get them out. The aussies have teamed up with the Poms and they are searching.
So our media can go in, but not emergency people????????

This is what is so shocking about this your own have abandoned your own. Your gov/officals what ever let down their own people.
That might be common in your country but in ours its so unbelievable, its just not on and we have a lot of natural disasters here.
Watching our media guys (stories) they are in total shock. Some of these guys even covered the Tsunami disaster and they are saying that the asian/indos/indians etc didnt behave anywhere near what they are seeing in NO. The governments responded quickly to everyone, there was no discrimination on race/residents or tourists/wealth etc. Even the gorilla groups stopped fighting to help out with the relief effort.

Im sorry if i am making people angry with my posts BUT there was a lot of criticism from America after the Tsunami to those countries effected about how they need to plan better for disasters. Even australia was criticised, we were told that we need to take on a bigger responsibility in the asian/pacific region lol that sure did make those other countries angry as well as us aussies.

So do you see why this NO situation is just so agrovating, we were preached to and yet Bush and co cant even get it right in your country.

The whole situation is just so sad and my heart goes out to those abandoned and neglected. No wonder those people are angry and i dont blame them.

~aussieblue

Details
09-03-2005, 10:23 PM
Aussie, I don't think there's anything wrong with your post. This is unprecedented behavior in a natural disaster and out of one here too. And however it may sometimes happen in New Orleans, most cities don't have a race problem of that magnitude nor anything at all similar to it. Something is just rotten about that place.

I don't know why they're being such idiots about allowing other rescuers to go in; espeically when they allow the media - seems completely mixed up. If it's too dangerous for other people to go in and rescue people, it's too dangerous for reporters to be there too.

I'm massively ticked off too. I keep having this urge to say to just let the whole place wash away... except that I know that most of the people caught up in this are good to average people who are just too caught up in surviving to tackle the thugs and criminals themselves. And the police are just too few to take the thugs on. But how there got to be so many lousy inhuman thugs in one city is what I really just can't get. There's something so wrong here.

T'sNana
09-03-2005, 10:27 PM
I heard a report (I was half asleep and can't remember who, but think it was Shepard Smith reporting) that people from the SuperDome were telling him that the Mayor was pushing the tourists ahead of everyone else? IMO, that's not right at all...it goes on my very long list of "UNBELIEVABLE".

aussieblue
09-03-2005, 10:28 PM
What happened with the inmates who took hostages right after the storm??

I watched on tv that the less dangerous they let go BUT the others where bussed out.
I mentioned this on the thread where people complained about the tourists getting out before residents.
The crims got out even ealier than the tourist though. Plus theres still heaps of tourists still trapped there, go figure!!!!

It was your media that they reported it in, it showed the clip of the crims sitting on the overpass/bridge????? Im not sure what station it was though.
Our cable is basicly running 24 hours on this and they are jumping to and fro with reports from most of your major stations. Ive lost track on who is who.

~aussieblue

Details
09-03-2005, 10:29 PM
I heard a report (I was half asleep and can't remember who, but think it was Shepard Smith reporting) that people from the SuperDome were telling him that the Mayor was pushing the tourists ahead of everyone else? IMO, that's not right at all...it goes on my very long list of "UNBELIEVABLE".What I heard was that the Mayor decided to take over the Hyatt? hotel as the operations base for rescue and recovery operations, so they evicted all the tourists and others out of there. They did get pushed to the front of the line for buses, and bused out of there.

Given what I've heard from Aussie and other people, including black people on the scene, I think that may have been the only choice, with how so many white people were becoming targets, they maybe knew they couldn't just put them in the Superdome to wait without sparking a riot.

T'sNana
09-03-2005, 10:33 PM
What I heard was that the Mayor decided to take over the Hyatt? hotel as the operations base for rescue and recovery operations, so they evicted all the tourists and others out of there. They did get pushed to the front of the line for buses, and bused out of there.

Given what I've heard from Aussie and other people, including black people on the scene, I think that may have been the only choice, with how so many white people were becoming targets, they maybe knew they couldn't just put them in the Superdome to wait without sparking a riot.
WOW!! Thanks for clearing that up..I feel better. That makes sense now.

Details
09-03-2005, 10:35 PM
WOW!! Thanks for clearing that up..I feel better. That makes sense now.Yeah, except for the bit where people are being so inhumane that you can't mix the races right now. That is just makes me furious! :furious:

T'sNana
09-03-2005, 10:37 PM
Yeah, except for the bit where people are being so inhumane that you can't mix the races right now. That is just makes me furious! :furious:
I agree. IMO, I don't think the Al Sharpton's (sp?) of the world are helping either! It's not about race...it's about VICTIMS of this HURRICANE! I have seen white, Vietnamese, black, tourists of many nationalities, etc.

Magnum PI
09-04-2005, 12:06 AM
Yeah, except for the bit where people are being so inhumane that you can't mix the races right now. That is just makes me furious! :furious:Mee too...but if I asked you to join me for a nightime walk in, say, Houston's 5th ward, or a few dozen other places I could name....would you say SURE!!! sounds like fun! Race isn't an easy thing to speak of, or may I say, it's an easy thing to speak of, but a hard thing to bring under control at will. The races do, and must mix, but when things explode at times, do you think anyone can raise their magic wand and make it OK? Jessie Jackson said on TV recently how he was scared one night in D.C. when several black guys seemed to be following him, and he pointedly said BLACK guys. Surely you can understand that. It ain't right, but please don't say it's not there...mpi

Details
09-04-2005, 12:42 AM
Mee too...but if I asked you to join me for a nightime walk in, say, Houston's 5th ward, or a few dozen other places I could name....would you say SURE!!! sounds like fun! Race isn't an easy thing to speak of, or may I say, it's an easy thing to speak of, but a hard thing to bring under control at will. The races do, and must mix, but when things explode at times, do you think anyone can raise their magic wand and make it OK? Jessie Jackson said on TV recently how he was scared one night in D.C. when several black guys seemed to be following him, and he pointedly said BLACK guys. Surely you can understand that. It ain't right, but please don't say it's not there...mpiYes and no... I don't personally think it's so much about race as class - most people aren't too worried about being followed by a black guy in a nice suit; most people are worried about being followed by a white guy in gang attire. You get a high-crime area, and anyone would be worried about walking through there. The fact that poverty and violent crime go together, and that often race and income go together make for some racially biased statistics and facts that do mean people will be more worried with a black man than a white man, all things being equal; but what makes a neighborhood unsafe to walk through at night unless you look like you fit there is usually crime, not race.

Dara
09-04-2005, 02:22 AM
Did anyone hear this (http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=348160):


A top New Orleans police officer said Saturday that National Guard troops sat around playing cards while people died in the stricken city after Hurricane Katrina. New Orleans deputy police commander W.S. Riley launched a bitter attack on the federal response to the disaster though he praised the way the evacuation was eventually handled.

Magnum PI
09-04-2005, 02:40 AM
Yes and no... I don't personally think it's so much about race as class - most people aren't too worried about being followed by a black guy in a nice suit; most people are worried about being followed by a white guy in gang attire. You get a high-crime area, and anyone would be worried about walking through there. The fact that poverty and violent crime go together, and that often race and income go together make for some racially biased statistics and facts that do mean people will be more worried with a black man than a white man, all things being equal; but what makes a neighborhood unsafe to walk through at night unless you look like you fit there is usually crime, not race.Uh..yeah..kinda..When I lived in NYC, I walked home through areas that I wouldn't tell others to tread (unless they were cool). I was comfortable doing so..I'm gonna read your post again tomorrow when I get up...mpi

SewingDeb
09-04-2005, 02:49 AM
I agree. The caption for the second picture has definitely been altered. Someone is trying to stir up trouble.

I think the caption for the first picture has been altered, too, because I saw that picture on the Fox News Gallery and that is not the wording in the caption. The word loot or looting is not in there at all.

CyberLaw
09-04-2005, 11:26 AM
Apparently I read an article today. News agencies do not change the caption of any photo.

If a photographer uses the word "loot" it is because he saw the person loot. He was an actual witness.......

If he sees a person walking down the street, but did not see them "loot" they may use the word "found" or "carrying" because you did not see the person loot the things they are carrying.

That is why there is a difference in captions, it was not a racial angle.

Beyond Belief
09-04-2005, 11:49 AM
I blew those pictures up and looked very closely at them. It might be a good idea for everyone to do that. i know what i saw. But you need to see it for yourself. i satisfied my curiosity, everyone should do the same.

fran
09-04-2005, 12:32 PM
FWIW, and I have no links..............

I heard that in regard to the tourists being taken to the front of the line....originally the hotel the tourists were housed in had paid for buses to go to NO and remove their guests. However, when the buses arrived in NO, they were told by whoever was in charge, to go to the superdome and remove evacuees from there. Thus, in the final days of the evacuation, the Mayor ordered the tourists to go to the superdome and they were put to the front of the line.........I personally don't see anything wrong with this. We must realize these people were in just as bad of shape as those in the superdome. They had gone days without food and water, they were hiding to save their lives, they didn't know what was going on and where to go to get help.

As for the length of time it took the Federal government to respond..........I'm not making excuses because I don't understand why it has to take so long when there is such an immediate need for assistance except for the bureaucracy involved,.........but, the state and local governments were told, and have always been told, that during a disaster, they must be responsible for their citizens for the first 72 hours, as it takes that long for the federal government to respond. Therefore, it seems that the mayor of NO and the Governor of LA must take responsibility for their inactions in the beginning. They should have had better disaster plans in place.

Having said this, I've seen every single person who's spoken on tv who has actually observed this disaster first hand, say things like,'I've never seen anything like it,' and 'This is a disaster of Biblical poportion,' and 'In all my years of reporting the news, I've never seen such widespread distruction,' and even battle-seasoned military personnel say things to the effect, 'Even in battle, I've never seen such total distruction.' ............you see, no one was prepared for such total and unspeakable loss. Also, remember, it isn't just NO that was effected by this storm, there's Mississippi and Alabama as well. This event is HUGE and unprecedented in our history.

I also believe that they weren't prepared for the large number of people who didn't or couldn't get out. They thought they had 25,000 at most, yet I heard yesterday they had transported by bus and air over 42,000. So many of them were sick. Even the great state of Texas thought 400 buses would be able to evacuate eveyone, yet it was a drop in the bucket the first day they were able to transport.

Of course, then there's the unsavory element that no one foresaw. Who would ever dream that a small portion of these victims would prey on the weaker, the women, the children. Then they began attacking the rescuers, hampering relief efforts.

Now is not the time to point fingers. Now is the time to help those in need. After those in need are taken care of, then we can find what went wrong and make sure this never, never happens again, from local, state, and federal government.

JMHO
fran

CyberLaw
09-04-2005, 12:42 PM
Beyond Belief:

From the Toronto Star.......

Two photographs of New Orleans residents wading through chest-deep water unleashed a wave of chatter among bloggers last week about whether black people are being treated unfairly in media coverage of post-hurricane looting.


One of the images, shot by photographer Dave Martin for the Associated Press, shows a young black man wading through chest-deep waters after "looting" a grocery store, according to the caption. The young man appears to have a case of Pepsi under one arm and a full garbage bag in tow.


In the other, similar shot, taken by photographer Chris Graythen for AFP/Getty Images, a white man and a light-skinned woman are shown wading through chest-deep water after "finding" goods, including bread and soda, according to the caption, in a local grocery store.


The images were both published on Tuesday by Yahoo News. "We don't edit photo captions," Yahoo P.R. manager Brian Nelson told Salon. "Sometimes we take a look at the photos and we'll choose to pull photos, but the captions run as is."


A search of AP and Getty's image databases confirms that Yahoo News did not alter either of the photo captions before posting them online.


Looting has become a serious problem, and conditions in the area continue to be extremely challenging. Bloggers were quick to raise allegations of insensitivity and racism regarding the disparity in the two captions ó but did they pass judgment too quickly? Not only did the photos come from separate outlets, bloggers had no knowledge of the circumstances in which the shots were taken, beyond what appeared in the captions.


On Wednesday, D.C. Web gossip Wonkette suggested AP should apologize, while a blogger at Daily Kos commented alongside the juxtaposed images, "And don't forget. It's not looting if you're white."


"I am curious how one photographer knew the food was looted by one but not the other," wrote Boston Globe correspondent Christina Pazzanese, in a letter posted on media commentator Jim Romenesko's blog. "Were interviews conducted as they swam by? Should editors, in a rush to publish poignant or startling images, relax their standards or allow personal or regional biases creep into captions and stories?"


The AP database includes two other images from the same scene by photographer Dave Martin that refer to looters in the captions, though neither actually shows an explicit act of looting. Jack Stokes, AP's director of media relations, confirmed that Martin says he witnessed the people in his images looting a grocery store. "He saw the person go into the shop and take the goods," Stokes said, "and that's why he wrote `looting' in the caption."


Santiago Lyon, AP's director of photography, told Salon that all captions are vetted by editors and are the result of a dialogue between editor and photographer. Lyon said AP's policy is that each photographer can describe only what he or she actually sees. He added, "When we see people go into businesses and come out with goods, we call it 'looting.'" On the other hand, he said, "When we just see them carrying things down the road, we call it `carrying items.'"

If a person does not know the circumstances of a photo taken, how can one then "comment" on the photo out of context.

The photographer is the one witnessing the "condition" in which the photo was taken because he/she is actually there at the scene.

Beyond Belief
09-04-2005, 12:42 PM
I just saw a clip from MEET THE PRESS. Gentlemen from La. extremely distraught because someone, I think his family wasn't rescued. What I didn't understand was what he said at the end. I thought he said "send us some money", but i don't get that, if thats what he said. is lack of money standing in the way of their rescues? I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere, I understand his anguish, but I didnt' understand what he said he wanted us to send.

Beyond Belief
09-04-2005, 12:45 PM
Beyond Belief:

From the Toronto Star.......

Two photographs of New Orleans residents wading through chest-deep water unleashed a wave of chatter among bloggers last week about whether black people are being treated unfairly in media coverage of post-hurricane looting.


One of the images, shot by photographer Dave Martin for the Associated Press, shows a young black man wading through chest-deep waters after "looting" a grocery store, according to the caption. The young man appears to have a case of Pepsi under one arm and a full garbage bag in tow.


In the other, similar shot, taken by photographer Chris Graythen for AFP/Getty Images, a white man and a light-skinned woman are shown wading through chest-deep water after "finding" goods, including bread and soda, according to the caption, in a local grocery store.


The images were both published on Tuesday by Yahoo News. "We don't edit photo captions," Yahoo P.R. manager Brian Nelson told Salon. "Sometimes we take a look at the photos and we'll choose to pull photos, but the captions run as is."


A search of AP and Getty's image databases confirms that Yahoo News did not alter either of the photo captions before posting them online.


Looting has become a serious problem, and conditions in the area continue to be extremely challenging. Bloggers were quick to raise allegations of insensitivity and racism regarding the disparity in the two captions ó but did they pass judgment too quickly? Not only did the photos come from separate outlets, bloggers had no knowledge of the circumstances in which the shots were taken, beyond what appeared in the captions.


On Wednesday, D.C. Web gossip Wonkette suggested AP should apologize, while a blogger at Daily Kos commented alongside the juxtaposed images, "And don't forget. It's not looting if you're white."


"I am curious how one photographer knew the food was looted by one but not the other," wrote Boston Globe correspondent Christina Pazzanese, in a letter posted on media commentator Jim Romenesko's blog. "Were interviews conducted as they swam by? Should editors, in a rush to publish poignant or startling images, relax their standards or allow personal or regional biases creep into captions and stories?"


The AP database includes two other images from the same scene by photographer Dave Martin that refer to looters in the captions, though neither actually shows an explicit act of looting. Jack Stokes, AP's director of media relations, confirmed that Martin says he witnessed the people in his images looting a grocery store. "He saw the person go into the shop and take the goods," Stokes said, "and that's why he wrote `looting' in the caption."


Santiago Lyon, AP's director of photography, told Salon that all captions are vetted by editors and are the result of a dialogue between editor and photographer. Lyon said AP's policy is that each photographer can describe only what he or she actually sees. He added, "When we see people go into businesses and come out with goods, we call it 'looting.'" On the other hand, he said, "When we just see them carrying things down the road, we call it `carrying items.'"

If a person does not know the circumstances of a photo taken, how can one then "comment" on the photo out of context.

The photographer is the one witnessing the "condition" in which the photo was taken because he/she is actually there at the scene.I didn't think anything was altered.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-04-2005, 12:52 PM
As for the length of time it took the Federal government to respond..........I'm not making excuses because I don't understand why it has to take so long when there is such an immediate need for assistance except for the bureaucracy involved,.........but, the state and local governments were told, and have always been told, that during a disaster, they must be responsible for their citizens for the first 72 hours, as it takes that long for the federal government to respond. Therefore, it seems that the mayor of NO and the Governor of LA must take responsibility for their inactions in the beginning. They should have had better disaster plans in place.
Having said this, I've seen every single person who's spoken on tv who has actually observed this disaster first hand, say things like,'I've never seen anything like it,' and 'This is a disaster of Biblical poportion,' and 'In all my years of reporting the news, I've never seen such widespread distruction,' and even battle-seasoned military personnel say things to the effect, 'Even in battle, I've never seen such total distruction.' ............you see, no one was prepared for such total and unspeakable loss. Also, remember, it isn't just NO that was effected by this storm, there's Mississippi and Alabama as well. This event is HUGE and unprecedented in our history.

I also believe that they weren't prepared for the large number of people who didn't or couldn't get out. They thought they had 25,000 at most, yet I heard yesterday they had transported by bus and air over 42,000. So many of them were sick. Even the great state of Texas thought 400 buses would be able to evacuate eveyone, yet it was a drop in the bucket the first day they were able to transport.

Of course, then there's the unsavory element that no one foresaw. Who would ever dream that a small portion of these victims would prey on the weaker, the women, the children. Then they began attacking the rescuers, hampering relief efforts.

Now is not the time to point fingers. Now is the time to help those in need. After those in need are taken care of, then we can find what went wrong and make sure this never, never happens again, from local, state, and federal government.

JMHO
fran

(Snipped some for space)
Fran, your post sums up a lot of my feelings as well. And I had not heard until this morning, about the part that the State/Local gov't having been told about the 72 hrs of self-sustainment. That actually makes good sense, and is a good PLAN - but it was not implemented well, to say the least. I read somewhere about the plan of using buses, etc for evacuations but that the buses just sat there during this, and now are flooded and of no use. That just makes me ill. That's not the federal gov't fault, that is directly a part of the local/state gov't. Having a plan on paper and then not following it -well, the plan was useless.

And I have the same feeling as you, let's hope most of the energy is spent on helping those in need. We can do a whole lot more armchair quarterbacking in the months/years to come. There will be obviously lots to talk about.

Hammerized
09-04-2005, 02:53 PM
I didn't think anything was altered.
Here is the photographer's explanation, in part:

Please stop emailing me on this one.

I wrote the caption about the two people who 'found' the items. I believed in my opinion, that they did simply find them, and not 'looted' them in the definition of the word. The people were swimming in chest deep water, and there were other people in the water, both white and black. I looked for the best picture. there were a million items floating in the water - we were right near a grocery store that had 5+ feet of water in it. it had no doors. the water was moving, and the stuff was floating away. These people were not ducking into a store and busting down windows to get electronics. They picked up bread and cokes that were floating in the water. They would have floated away anyhow. I wouldn't have taken in, because I wouldn't eat anything that's been in that water. But I'm not homeless. (well, technically I am right now.)


I'm not trying to be politically correct. I'm don't care if you are white or black. I spent 4 hours on a boat in my parent's neighborhood shooting, and rescuing people, both black and white, dog and cat. I am a journalist, and a human being - and I see all as such. If you don't belive me, you can look on Getty today and see the images I shot of real looting today, and you will see white and black people, and they were DEFINATELY looting. And I put that in the caption.

Please, please don't argue symantics over this one.
Full post at this link:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17204
It's the 26th post down.

SewingDeb
09-04-2005, 03:55 PM
Apparently I read an article today. News agencies do not change the caption of any photo.

If a photographer uses the word "loot" it is because he saw the person loot. He was an actual witness.......

If he sees a person walking down the street, but did not see them "loot" they may use the word "found" or "carrying" because you did not see the person loot the things they are carrying.

That is why there is a difference in captions, it was not a racial angle.

Here's the caption from the first picture from CNN:

A young man drags groceries through chest-deep water in New Orleans on Tuesday.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.impact/index.html
Click on ē Gallery: After Katrina on that page.

CyberLaw
09-04-2005, 04:18 PM
The caption wa posted by a third party, namely CNN, it could not put loot as no one from CNN took the picture, like the photographer did when he mentioned the word looting.

The photographer knows where the bag originated from, CNN only sees a man in the water dragging the bag. The photographer is aware of the circumstances of the picture, CNN is not.

So the caption that CNN ran with: A man is seen "dragging" a bag in the water. They were correct and not reporting news, rather what they saw in the picture.

No one from CNN knows if the bag is his, where it came from, how it originated with this man.

Except the photograher who was actually there and witnessed how this man was in possession of this bag and where it came from.

It is not like CNN is a photo gallery, they are a news agency......

Remember the photo belongs to the person who took it, not CNN and BTW CNN would be in deep trouble if they use words in reference to black people and looting. Big time.....

Agencies that post pictures post what the artist(photographer) views when and how he took the picture.

The difference the artist who originated the picture and the news agency is using the picture.

Enough said..........like hearsay......

TisHerself
09-04-2005, 04:40 PM
No that was not true no prisoner were released

TisHerself
09-04-2005, 05:49 PM
Aussie, I hear everything you are saying and I know it is not only Australians who have those feelings. My family is in UK, talking to them on the phone they are in utter disbelief. Just as you are in your country, they are watching this unfold over there. My brother said to me "We are seeing such inhumanity, that is almost unbearable to those involved, and it is happening in the US in 2005".
Whether or not what happened, or is still happening in New Orleans was a racial issue, In reference to the evacuation and rescue efforts everyone will have there own oppinions. What I know is that as I watched this horrific disaster play out on my tv over the past week it affected my life profoundly. Tears rolled down my cheeks as I saw people trudge through water up to their waistes, they had lost everything, they had no homes to return to. Days went by, some had not eaten, had nothing to drink in days, thousands dead. Heralded into The Super Dome, supposedly a safe haven, only to be made prey to rapists and muggers. Then held there for days and could not get out. When I saw Sheppard Smith, and Geraldo Rivera (who happened to be inside the Super Dome on day 5) screaming into the mike with a 10mth old baby in his arms, tears streaming down his face, "Get these people help". And Shep interrupting Bill O'Rielly (imagine that) tears streaming down his face saying "I am not saying there is outright favouritism here but these people on this bridge have needed help for 2 days and The Mayor has been picking up others, and passing these people by. Sheppard's voice is going because he has been screaming. Out of this horror I have witnessed people who do care for their fellow man, who have incredible humanity. Sadly people who do not, this tragedy has shown the worst inhumanity to man. It has also shown me the incredible spirit of the people of the whole Gulf Coast who were affected by Katrina.
However to The Courage, The Character, The Strength and The Spirit of The people of New Orleans I Tip My Hat.

Magnum PI
09-05-2005, 12:07 AM
Yes and no... I don't personally think it's so much about race as class - most people aren't too worried about being followed by a black guy in a nice suit; most people are worried about being followed by a white guy in gang attire. You get a high-crime area, and anyone would be worried about walking through there. The fact that poverty and violent crime go together, and that often race and income go together make for some racially biased statistics and facts that do mean people will be more worried with a black man than a white man, all things being equal; but what makes a neighborhood unsafe to walk through at night unless you look like you fit there is usually crime, not race.I agree with you in a way, but when you say crime, you mean personal street crimes, muggings, rapes, drug use and things like that, right? Little Italy and China town in NYC are high crime areas, but most feel completely safe to walk the streets. Difference being, pros control the crime, and I don't mean the cops. Now let's go uptown, past 120th st...different deal altogether. I do see your point though. There are certainly other factors than race in the mix...mpi

Details
09-05-2005, 12:21 AM
Yeah, street crime is what I am talking about. A wealthy neighborhood, with an abused wife behind every door is a bad place, but generally safe to walk thorugh. But where street gangs think they own the place, where a crime can be committed and people aren't surprised, don't want to get involved, etc. - that's where civilization has lost it's grasp, in part, and that's the places where you don't walk after dark.

Those areas are universally poor, but not universally of any one race.

Magnum PI
09-05-2005, 12:30 AM
Yeah, street crime is what I am talking about. A wealthy neighborhood, with an abused wife behind every door is a bad place, but generally safe to walk thorugh. But where street gangs think they own the place, where a crime can be committed and people aren't surprised, don't want to get involved, etc. - that's where civilization has lost it's grasp, in part, and that's the places where you don't walk after dark.

Those areas are universally poor, but not universally of any one race.Well said...thank you...mpi

Details
09-05-2005, 12:34 AM
Ah, good, so it was coherent. It's been a few hours since I got any sleep - about 34 of them. :crazy:

Magnum PI
09-05-2005, 12:52 AM
Ah, good, so it was coherent. It's been a few hours since I got any sleep - about 34 of them. :crazy:I know what you mean. Sometimes I get up and read some of my stuff I wrote the night before and I wonder, who is this idiot? Anyway, get some sleep if you can..34 hrs.. that's too long without sleep...mpi

Details
09-05-2005, 01:13 AM
I know what you mean. Sometimes I get up and read some of my stuff I wrote the night before and I wonder, who is this idiot? Anyway, get some sleep if you can..34 hrs.. that's too long without sleep...mpiYeah, in a few hours. I may do another all nighter tomorrow - I've got a deadline coming up, and I want to be done for it - but I also had a family get together today, so I had to manufacture some extra hours. But I'm definitely on the decline now.

Beyond Belief
09-05-2005, 08:29 AM
:clap: :clap: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Good description of how most of us feel about ourselves. Then theres always the fellow idiot who digs through things written days prior and analyzes it for you, with all their misinterpretations because they didn't read the entire conversation. This just shows us how everything can get confused to the point no one knows what anyone else is talking about.
:blowkiss:

I know what you mean. Sometimes I get up and read some of my stuff I wrote the night before and I wonder, who is this idiot? Anyway, get some sleep if you can..34 hrs.. that's too long without sleep...mpi

less0305
09-05-2005, 11:44 AM
:clap: :clap: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Good description of how most of us feel about ourselves. Then theres always the fellow idiot who digs through things written days prior and analyzes it for you, with all their misinterpretations because they didn't read the entire conversation. This just shows us how everything can get confused to the point no one knows what anyone else is talking about.
:blowkiss:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

j2mirish
09-05-2005, 09:46 PM
[QUOTE=Details]Yes and no... I don't personally think it's so much about race as class - most people aren't too worried about being followed by a black guy in a nice suit; most people are worried about being followed by a white guy in gang attire. You get a high-crime area, and anyone would be worried about walking through there. The fact that poverty and violent crime go together, and that often race and income go together make for some racially biased statistics and facts that do mean people will be more worried with a black man than a white man, all things being equal; but what makes a neighborhood unsafe to walk through at night unless you look like you fit there is usually crime, not race

:clap: :clap: :clap:

concernedperson
09-05-2005, 09:52 PM
[QUOTE=Details]Yes and no... I don't personally think it's so much about race as class - most people aren't too worried about being followed by a black guy in a nice suit; most people are worried about being followed by a white guy in gang attire. You get a high-crime area, and anyone would be worried about walking through there. The fact that poverty and violent crime go together, and that often race and income go together make for some racially biased statistics and facts that do mean people will be more worried with a black man than a white man, all things being equal; but what makes a neighborhood unsafe to walk through at night unless you look like you fit there is usually crime, not race

:clap: :clap: :clap:

And it goes on and on. I can profile until I am blue in the face. There are never so perfect.

Leve
09-05-2005, 10:28 PM
In response to the black/white issue. Um...no, it wouldn't make a difference if the victims were white and affluent.

Example? St. Bernard Parish:

Representative Nita Hutter
St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana

September 2, 2005, 11:30 AM CST

Please Help Us:

We have received no federal contact or relief
Our supplies are minimum to none
We are totally isolated and cut off from the outside world
We are desperate for medical supplies
We need communication devices
We need Food
We need transportation and fuel for Generators
We have 6000 sheltered and rescued individuals
We do not have enough supplies to care for the survivors, nor are we able to sufficiently search for additional survivors.
We do not have sufficient supplies for our deputies and Parish government employees who are rescuing those who are stranded
Our rescuers are tired and fatigued and may not be able to continue to help survivors
We are still rescuing people, but we cannot begin to estimate the number of survivors who are still on rooftops and in attics.
We have had contact with LA National Guard and fly overs, but no supplies have been delivered
This is a desperate, desperate situation.
If we do not receive assistance immediately, many, many more St. Bernard, Louisiana, and U.S. citizens will die.
The threat of looting is imminent

Please send help and supplies immediately.

http://www.st-bernard.la.us/emprep/katrina/releases.htm

Here's there main website with pictures of the area:

http://www.st-bernard.la.us/

I realize that Jesse Jackson and others would love to use this national tragedy to promote their own agendas, but the sad fact is that people of all races, sexes, sexual orientation and nationalities suffered and died. To me thats a big enough horror without having to look for worse (and IMO fabricated) issues.

Nova
09-05-2005, 11:26 PM
Nobody is arguing that the hurricane distinguished between persons on the basis of color. Certainly, many well-to-do people have also lost their homes and possessions.

But prominent members of the Bush administration were still on vacation late in the week. FEMA officials at the highest level were unaware of what the rest of us knew from watching TV.

It's easy to say "race isn't an issue," but somehow I think if thousands of people were stranded in Georgetown, Dr. Rice would have postponed her trip to Ferragamo. (Yes, I realize Dr. Rice is of the same race as most of the NO refugees; but the lines of race and class are often blurred in this country.)