I am so Angry

[tybee204]

I am so angry that Homeland Security blocked the Red Cross from feeding people, delivering medicine and food to Hospitals and setting up any form of relief within New Orleans to sustain life untill evacuations could be organized. Since when is the Red Cross not allowed to enter a disaster area to offer life saving services?

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,...24,00.html#4524

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?


Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

[Bobbisangel]

I am so angry that Homeland Security blocked the Red Cross from feeding people, delivering medicine and food to Hospitals and setting up any form of relief within New Orleans to sustain life untill evacuations could be organized. Since when is the Red Cross not allowed to enter a disaster area to offer life saving services?

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,...24,00.html#4524

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?


Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.


This whole thing is just unbelievable. It just makes me sick. Who the hell does Homeland Security think they are anyway. It didn't bother them that people are dying and have been since day one? It doesn't bother them that the people at the Convention Center listened to what they were told to do and told to go and that they ended up in hell? No food, water, diapers for the babies, elderly and babies dying from dehydration...no bathrooms..my God
we live in the richest country in the world and this is how our people are treated.

Any time a foreign country is in need we are right there. But when it comes to taking care of our own...forget it. I am just so angry I can hardly stand it.
It has been asked if these people have been neglected because most of them are black and poor. It darn well better not be the reason.

I've listened over and over to the pleas from the mayor of New Orleans trying to get help for his people. This is a disgrace that won't be forgotten for centurys. Today President Bush finally returns from his vacation and takes a little time to stroll into New Orleans and pat a few babies on the head. I'm so ticked at him that it is a good thing he can't run for President again. I've heard politicians say that they had no idea that things were so bad in New Orleans....I call bull****. Every news station has covered this disaster since day one. I'm really proud of the newscasters who have said it like it is. Some of them aren't holding back at all. I listened to Joe Scarbrough...probably spelled that wrong...last night and he spoke his piece. Our government failed these people. There was no plan for a disaster like this even though the big wigs knew it was coming.

Right now I am ashamed of my government. I'm ashamed of these politicians
who have shown that they don't care. These politicians who set in their big expensive homes...warm and safe with frigs full of food and cold water. They have 5 bathrooms for 2-3 people...clean clothes, etc. They make me sick.

I feel better now. This whole thing is just so heartbreaking. There are still people stranded in their attics and dead bodies laying in streets. It is like a nightmare but it is real.

I sent a email to "Feed The Children" asking them if they are going to go in with food and water for the people in New Orleans. Their advertisements say how many people/children that they help. I got an answer...Normally they don't help in the USA. And their thing is to help children adjust to their new way of life. Well good for them. If children don't have water to drink and food to eat...the basics...then how are they supposed to adjust to the changes in their lives. They said they have been in contact with the decision makers and were just waiting to get the word and they were going to pitch in and help.
Big of them. Just sit there until you hear from the politicians and you might sit there forever. I will never send them money because I believe in taking care of our own first and the good Lord knows that there are always people in need in the good ole USA.

I know that I'm not the only person who is severly disappointed in our government right now. We really can't depend on politicians in a time of need.
A sad day in America.

[chicoliving]

Why didn't they just hold the redcross til they knew where people were evacuating to like those impromptu areas on the bridge and take care of those at the dome?

[txsvicki]

I agree with BobbisAngel. It is a shame and a disgrace.

[lcookster]

What kills me is that Homeland Security claims they didn't know about people at the convention center, when the news media had been reporting on it all along. I saw one female CNN anchor grilling the top Homeland guy, asking him why CNN's intelligence was better than his. It has truly been a disgrace. And I think we are only beginning to hear the horror stories of what these people had to endure. It took 5 days to get minimal relief???????? Come on!

[Marthatex]

This is like your worst nightmare? Were they set up for terrorism and not natural disaster. I have no idea.

I can't imagine what has caused this total breakdown of communication and planning, but I hope they get to the bottom of it and there will be h___ to pay for years.

Feeling safe, anyone?

[bulletgirl2002]

Didn't they say it wasn't safe for them to go in? There was no communication with the NO police. The governor really screwed up. The mayor screwed up when he let those people at the W go first. He should have allowed elderly and sick first. I guess it is easy for me to be a Monday morning quarterback.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Didn't they say it wasn't safe for them to go in? There was no communication with the NO police. The governor really screwed up. The mayor screwed up when he let those people at the W go first. He should have allowed elderly and sick first. I guess it is easy for me to be a Monday morning quarterback.


Their safety could very well be (and should be) part of the equation. Same as in certain types of police calls, where firefighters and medics are called - depending on the type of call known, FF and medics don't go in until the police have secured the scene. Those can be tough, heartwrenching minutes, but it doesn't help to have rescue personnel downed either. Same with RedCross.

I have absolutely no idea why they've been told to stay out for now, and there's obviously more to the story, but just thought I'd throw in that the safety of the Red Cross teams does have to be considered. But it does frustrate me so, just like everyone else, that people in the Superdome and on many overpasses, etc. can't get basic food and water.

[nanandjim]

I am so angry that Homeland Security blocked the Red Cross from feeding people, delivering medicine and food to Hospitals and setting up any form of relief within New Orleans to sustain life untill evacuations could be organized. Since when is the Red Cross not allowed to enter a disaster area to offer life saving services?...
The Red Cross Director explained that it was deemed too dangerous for their volunteers to enter until areas were under control. They do not want to put the lives of the Red Cross volunteers in danger. Unfortunately, I agree with the decision. A few thugs make it hard on everyone. So, IMO, the blame should be placed on the thugs and the Louisiana's local government for not having a plan.

Of course, by reading many of the posts on this forum, I understand that my viewpoint is in the minority. :)

[Dara]

What's amazing is that once they knew (and I heard this as early as Tuesday) that it was too dangerous, why did it take days and days to make it safe enough for help to go in. There's a huge divide between expecting volunteers to go in and risk their lives and just saying, "Stand down" indefinitely while people die. We could have gotten control earlier. We could have gotten troops there earlier so aid could have been given safely. This is a travesty.

[less0305]

The Red Cross Director explained that it was deemed too dangerous for their volunteers to enter until areas were under control. They do not want to put the lives of the Red Cross volunteers in danger. Unfortunately, I agree with the decision. A few thugs make it hard on everyone. So, IMO, the blame should be placed on the thugs and the Louisiana's local government for not having a plan.

Of course, by reading many of the posts on this forum, I understand that my viewpoint is in the minority. :)


:rolleyes: <------- Me standing over there with Nan.

[bulletgirl2002]

thank goodness the troops with guns are there taking control now.....

[Casshew]

Why is homeland security even involved? this has nothing to do with terrorism it's a natural disaster :confused: do they think al qaeda is behind the levees breaking?:confused:

[Sniffy38]

:rolleyes: <------- Me standing over there with Nan.

:rolleyes: <-------- Me Three standing there with Nan and Less. Very well said!

[Pepper]

The Red Cross Director explained that it was deemed too dangerous for their volunteers to enter until areas were under control. They do not want to put the lives of the Red Cross volunteers in danger. Unfortunately, I agree with the decision. A few thugs make it hard on everyone. So, IMO, the blame should be placed on the thugs and the Louisiana's local government for not having a plan.

Of course, by reading many of the posts on this forum, I understand that my viewpoint is in the minority. :)
I believe there is plenty of blame to go around. Let's start with the local government of New Orleans. The city councilmen or aldermen/women or whatever they are called should have been in touch with their constituants and made sure those people knew the danger of staying behind. The police or whatever should have been in those low-lying neighborhoods with bullhorns telling those people they were in danger of drowning if they stayed behind.

Next, the mayor should have had a plan to evacuate those without cars. City busses and school busses could have been used to move those people out. There was no plan despite the governor's claim to the contrary.

Finally, the National Guard troops, FEMA, supplies, etc. should have been brought in to a staging area close enough to the region to be able to deliver help within hours - not days - after the storm ended.

The appalling nature of this is that everyone knew for days ahead that this was a vicious storm that had New Orleans and Mississippi in the cross-hairs. There was time to do something - unlike the earthquakes of California and the 9-11 disaster, where there was no advance warning.

This should be a wake-up call to all communities. There is simply no place that is safe from a possible disaster. Every city, county and state needs a disaster plan.

[Cypros]

Why is homeland security even involved? this has nothing to do with terrorism it's a natural disaster :confused: do they think al qaeda is behind the levees breaking?:confused:

It wouldn't surprise me if Homeland Security is desparately seeking a way to blame al-Qaeda for this.

[Maral]

Why is homeland security even involved? this has nothing to do with terrorism it's a natural disaster :confused: do they think al qaeda is behind the levees breaking?:confused:
The Department of Homeland Security oversees FEMA.

[Casshew]

The Department of Homeland Security oversees FEMA.
I thought the homeland security dept started up after 9/11 - who controlled FEMA prior to that?

[rollerbladr123]

The Department of Homeland Security oversees FEMA.
When DHS was formed, one of the strongest criticisms centered around the fact that perhaps it would be best if FEMA was kept as a small, independent mobile federal agency. The pathetic initial FEMA response to Hurricane Katrina shows that perhaps that criticism was valid.

[Ntegrity]

:rolleyes: <-------- Me Three standing there with Nan and Less. Very well said!
:rolleyes: <------ Me Four standing with Nan and Less and Sniffy. There has never been a disaster in the U.S. where an entire city was submerged, no drinking water, no electricity, no communication. It's not gonna be solved in a day or two. And everyone who's complaining how the evacuees have been holed up with no food or water for SIX DAYS should remember there was running water until after the storm on Monday. Even an idiot should know to bring food, water and diapers for their babies. I think the victims should accept at least partial blame for their situation, but it's so much easier to blame the government.

[Cypros]

:rolleyes: <------ Me Four standing with Nan and Less and Sniffy. There has never been a disaster in the U.S. where an entire city was submerged, no drinking water, no electricity, no communication. It's not gonna be solved in a day or two. And everyone who's complaining how the evacuees have been holed up with no food or water for SIX DAYS should remember there was running water until after the storm on Monday. Even an idiot should know to bring food, water and diapers for their babies. I think the victims should accept at least partial blame for their situation, but it's so much easier to blame the government.

:confused: There are some people who are incapable of understanding the circumstances of a crisis-situation. Many people did bring supplies -- they ran out. These are people who don't own SUVs. They brought what they could CARRY. I am sure that many shared with those who didn't bring or who ran out early -- never imagining that help was DAYS AWAY!! That's the people in the Superdome. Many others had to flee for their lives when the levees broke. They didn't have time to PACK!!

[kgeaux]

The Red Cross Director explained that it was deemed too dangerous for their volunteers to enter until areas were under control. They do not want to put the lives of the Red Cross volunteers in danger. Unfortunately, I agree with the decision. A few thugs make it hard on everyone. So, IMO, the blame should be placed on the thugs and the Louisiana's local government for not having a plan.

Of course, by reading many of the posts on this forum, I understand that my viewpoint is in the minority. :)


Me, too. We sent busses to N.O. which were turned away because of security reasons. People were wandering the streets with AK47's and shooting at rescuers.....the busses were allowed in once the security issues were being dealt with.

Louisiana's GOVERNOR, a lady I have admired, is being strongly implicated. She arranged for security/rescue forces ahead of time and then DELAYED giving them the OK to enter the city. She has seemed to have times of emotional and governmental paralysis.

I like Kathleen, but I voted for Bobby Jindal, and boy, I am wishing he'd have won that election.

[tybee204]

How do you pack and carry enough food, water, diapers etc for 5 or 6 days and carry it along a couple kids when you are on foot? Expecially if you are walking threw waste deep or higher water? How do you carry it if you are sick or elderly?

Its not easy to blame the Government as they represent me . But I certainly wont make excuses for them and give them a pass on their failure to Command this situation. IMO they have failed and children are dying because of it.

[nanandjim]

...I think the victims should accept at least partial blame for their situation...
It's so nice to see that there are a few other posters who are of the same mindset as I! :blowkiss:

I agree that many of the victims who CHOSE not to evacuate, although warned and offered assistance to do so, are responsible for their demise.

As kgeaux (who is in Louisiana) note, it was the Governor's decision to DELAY allowing help into the state.

It's the old domino effect. When one is out of place, the entire set topples over.

President Bush will go down as the biggest "whipping boy" in history, IMO. Is there anything left that we can blame on him? :rolleyes:

[tybee204]

Another thing whilst im ranting. I keep hearing "Why didnt these people evacuate?"

I want to know HOW were they suppose to evacuate. We see how many bus's , helecopters and planes it is taking to evacuate this number of people. We did not see 100's of bus's , planes and helicopters evacuating the poor and elderly before the Hurricane.

How were these people suppose to evacuate and where were they suppose to go?

[nanandjim]

Another thing whilst im ranting. I keep hearing "Why didnt these people evacuate?"

I want to know HOW were they suppose to evacuate. We see how many bus's , helecopters and planes it is taking to evacuate this number of people. We did not see 100's of bus's , planes and helicopters evacuating the poor and elderly before the Hurricane.

How were these people suppose to evacuate and where were they suppose to go?
I believe that I had read that many were offered transportation out of town and refused. In any case, this was the local government's responsibility to coordinate this effort. You can't force the people to leave. Yet, they and apparently part of the general public don't expect adults to be held accountable for their own choices.

It's the ones that didn't have a choice (i.e., the children) that I really feel sorry for.

ETA: They have armories, etc., in many states that were set up to take in the evacuees. Been there, done that...

[less0305]

As my husband said yesterday.... I'm not going to stand in front of a category 5 hurricane in a city where it was already below sea level. Wouldn't you run from a fire? With children on my hip, I'd have been thumbing my way somewhere. My luck tho, I would have thumbed to Waveland or Biloxi and then been blown off the face of the earth. But I would have tried.

[nanandjim]

As my husband said yesterday.... I'm not going to stand in front of a category 5 hurricane in a city where it was already below sea level. Wouldn't you run from a fire? With children on my hip, I'd have been thumbing my way somewhere. My luck tho, I would have thumbed to Waveland or Biloxi and then been blown off the face of the earth. But I would have tried.
I agree. I see people in town here, standing at traffic lights with signs that say, "I am hungry. Need money for food." If I had no way out of town, I would have a sign saying, "Please help!! Need a ride to a shelter!!" I know that these people had spray paint because I saw pleas for help on rooftops. That amazed me because I wonder where they got the paint!!

[tybee204]

There were people with money that couldnt get out. Airports closed, no rental cars available etc. Some people hired taxi's and limo services at thousands of dollars to get them out. The guests at the hotels are there because they couldnt get out.

These people couldnt get out yet we expect the poorest of the poor and the elderly with little or no money and no transportation to have gotten out?

[SieSie]

The Red Cross Director explained that it was deemed too dangerous for their volunteers to enter until areas were under control. They do not want to put the lives of the Red Cross volunteers in danger. Unfortunately, I agree with the decision. A few thugs make it hard on everyone. So, IMO, the blame should be placed on the thugs and the Louisiana's local government for not having a plan.

Of course, by reading many of the posts on this forum, I understand that my viewpoint is in the minority. :)
Hi Nanandjim! :wavyguy: I see both sides to this (as I do to most things). Their safety should come first so I can understand if it was not safe to go into the areas where the people were with the stolen guns, etc. I also understand it if there were not enough guardsmen to protect them as they went through (which is obviously the case and I fault the government for that).

What I don't understand, however, is why our government couldn't do something ELSE then - such as dropping tarps and food and water and medical supplies from helicopters to the people stuck on the bridges and rooftops, etc.?? If they didn't feel safe enough to take vehicles in, then drop crates of supplies like they do to third-world countries so these people wouldn't have felt so desperate. They'd have known there WAS help coming, even though it would take time.

Did they have a helicopter going around with a bullhorn telling people that help was on the way, that they wouldn’t just abandon them, that things had to be done in an orderly manner and they were trying to save the sick and elderly first, but that they would not be forgotten?

It just seems that more could’ve been done. I know it’s easy to point fingers afterwards, but it didn’t seem like anyone was in charge. Was it the Mayor? Homeland Security? FEMA? I mean, compared to 9/11 having Mayor Guilliani (sp??) – it seems like there was just no control.

It is a shame that a few select @ssho!es took advantage of a disaster to loot, rape, murder and have shoot-outs. Couldn’t we have gotten some Navy Seals or SWAT guys sent into the areas immediately where the looting and rapes were occurring, hiding in black in their little boats, with night-vision goggles and given an order to shoot anyone holding a weapon?

Before everyone screams at me about how some of those looters are innocent, panicked people just trying to survive, I suggest they just shoot them in the arm so they drop the weapon. Word would soon get out that this type of lawlessness wouldn’t be tolerated, EVER. If they did come across people committing violent acts, they would have permission to shoot-to-kill, to rid society of those who enjoy taking advantage of others. Once it was safe, the Red Cross could go in and help even more. Why just keep the Red Cross out – why not make it safe for the Red Cross to go in????

Last night, after hearing Shepard Smith & Geraldo (gag), I was so frustrated that I couldn’t do more. I was in tears and asking DH if we could go around town, door to door, asking for extra diapers, bottled water, canned goods, clothes, toiletries, etc. I wanted to borrow our friend’s maxi-van, load it up, and drive to the bridges and outside the convention center myself. I’m sure many of you WS’ers out there would’ve helped us along our way, some of you joining the effort as we traveled, growing in numbers until we arrived to help these devastated people. I guess I might take after my father a tad, ;) as he took a van-full of donated goods to the people in Honduras a few years back (1999 maybe?).

Anyway - I got so frustrated thinking how it would take us a few days to organize it (we don't have extra money so I was gonna ask my parents to donate gas money for us to go) and that by the time we drove there from Michigan, they would already have help. Well, then it hit me - the reason I didn't begin to organize such a thing the minute this tragedy occurred, is because I TRUSTED OUR GOVERNMENT to come to the rescue. One of the reporters on tv (on in the background, I don't know who it was) quoted something that JFK once said and it really hit me:
“Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.”

If I'd have known that it would take our government that long to help these people, and if I were "somebody" - I'd have called Donald Trump, Bill Gates, John Travolta, etc, and borrowed their jets.... I'd have asked Evian to give me some crates of water.... I'd have gone to all the camping stores and begged for tarps and rope and camping supplies.... I'd have called Levi Strauss and Calvin Klein and gotten boxes and boxes of new clothes.... I'd have gone to Band-Aid and Curad and gotten bandages, gauze, peroxide, etc..... I'd have gone to Pfizer and other drug companies and gotten prescription medications of all kinds.... I’d have gone to all of the Wal-Marts and gotten OTC medicines and Gatorades. Then I'd fly those celebrity planes, filled with the essentials, and gotten as close to the area as possible. From there I'd have taken groups of people in vans, buses and motor-homes, pulling people's boats and jet-ski's and we would've helped these people ourselves. If I were “somebody”, I could’ve paid people in Alabama and Texas for the use of their boats and jet-ski’s and vans, and other people with as much compassion would’ve gladly joined the efforts. If I were “somebody”.

To end this rambling post, I told DH last night that if another huge hurricane hits anywhere, we should organize our little van-effort immediately, instead of waiting for the government to help the people. The PEOPLE need to help the PEOPLE – and I AM SOMEBODY!!!

Sorry for rambling, this is just such a frustrating thing to sit back and watch and I feel so helpless and then that makes me angry. Thanks for listening.

[nanandjim]

There were people with money that couldnt get out. Airports closed, no rental cars available etc. Some people hired taxi's and limo services at thousands of dollars to get them out. The guests at the hotels are there because they couldnt get out.

These people couldnt get out yet we expect the poorest of the poor and the elderly with little or no money and no transportation to have gotten out?
People could get out, if they left when they were offered rides and warned. I have heard radio interviews from some of those left behind, who admitted that they didn't take the storm seriously, waited too long to seek transportation and therefore had no choice but to ride out the storm.

Again, I have heard that officials actually went door-to-door and offered transportation to those who did not have it.

Had the levees been strong enough to hold the water, NO would have made it through this disaster. IMO, all of the major problems caused by this storm were preventable. Engineers had been warning Louisiana for years that the levees were not designed to hold up to anything greater than a Cat 3 hurricane.

ETA: I feel sorry for the resulting conditions. However, if I were in that situation, I would be intelligent enough to know that I was at least partly responsible for my own demise.

[Cypros]

On Monday, when it became clear just how many people remained in NO as well as many of the towns along the Gulf Coast, my first response was to think, well, they were told to evacuate! However, by the end of that day the reality of the evacuation situation became apparent and I immediately changed my tune. Yes, there were those who chose to ride it out like an amusement park ride. They thought it would be an exciting adventure. However, few fall into that category. Yes, there were many who were offered evacuation but refused. Many of those refused because they would not leave elderly/infirm family/friends behind. I consider them heroes. Many tried to get out but had to turn back because of the congestion on the highways. There are also many many who believed that they could somehow protect their home from the ravages of the storm and potential looting. The misconception that we are invincible is common but is also encouraged by a media and a government (yes, both!) who do everything they can to protect us from reality. When other natural disasters hit, we never see the COMPLETE picture of the devastation and death that comes with it. It is the same with war. We are shielded from the reality, but it is easier to do so when the devastation is going on elsewhere. Natural disasters are treated as entertainment. Reporters stand out in the middle of them and people think they can do the same. Nature hits, causes damage, and then everything is cleaned up and we all move on.

I agree that the local government bears fault, as well as the federal government, and the media (for sensationalizing past disasters). Some of the individual victims made very bad choices, many had no choice. Most did the best they could in a chaotic situation with little guidance.

[less0305]

Fats Domino's manager said on national radio that Fats and his family did not WANT to leave. Did not WANT to leave. Suddenly when things got wayyyyyy bad miracuously a helicopter came and got Fats and his family. How did that happen? Whose helicopter? Did the helicopter help out any other families? Was it a coast guard helicopter or a private helicopter?

[nanandjim]

Hi Nanandjim! :wavyguy:... I also understand it if there were not enough guardsmen to protect them as they went through (which is obviously the case and I fault the government for that)...
Hello, there. :blowkiss: Did you read kgeaux's post stating that the Governor of Louisiana delayed giving the okay for help to enter the state? If memory serves me, President Bush approved help several days BEFORE the storm. If local government refuses to allow entry UNTIL it is almost too late, there's not much that can be done.

I also heard news reports of thugs shooting at the helicopters. I can well imagine that they couldn't get close enough to drop supplies.

IMO, there was little to no planning and little to no leadership in the State of Louisiana. From the little coverage that I have seen in Mississippi and Alabama (who had areas totally decimated by the hurricane), they are not having nearly the same problems as Louisiana. IMO, this is due to those particular states' good planning and leadership.

[jilly]

Had the levees been strong enough to hold the water, NO would have made it through this disaster. IMO, all of the major problems caused by this storm were preventable. Engineers had been warning Louisiana for years that the levees were not designed to hold up to anything greater than a Cat 3 hurricane.



Exactly. I'm with you Nan. I remember hearing somewhere that it would have cost $1-2 Billion to fix the system - now they're looking at $100 Billion to rebuild.

The weakest link for me appears to be the Governor - I've seen the Governor of Texas on TV more than her.

[tybee204]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_national_guard

Congress Likely to Probe Guard Delay


WASHINGTON - Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck — a delay nearly certain to be investigated by Congress. .....

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.......

Republicans and Democrats alike in Congress are just beginning to ask why one of the National Guard's most trusted roles — disaster relief — was so uneven, delayed and chaotic this time around.......



Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record), R-Neb., said the situation has shown major breakdowns in the nation's emergency response capabilities. "There must be some accountability in this process after the crisis is addressed," he said........



Full story at link.

[Casshew]

Exactly. I'm with you Nan. I remember hearing somewhere that it would have cost $1-2 Billion to fix the system - now they're looking at $100 Billion to rebuild.

It could be that much just to clear up all the mess - never mind rebuild, if they even rebuild - nothing will change that the city is still below sea level and this could happen again.

[Olivia77]

I think the victims should accept at least partial blame for their situation.

I never thought I'd hear that one on Websleuths. And I suppose the children getting raped by the thugs in the city right now were "asking for it," when they were at 711 looting for food because they didn't evacuate?

Government responsibility aside, is it that difficult for people to put themselves in someone else's position and understand that some people were simply unable to evacuate? There was a poster on here with family down there and when they got to the freeway, it was too packed and they were unable to get on and get out of the city. So they had to turn around and get to shelter to try to ride it out. And now we sit here judging people like them lumping everyone together and saying how much smarter we would be in their situation.

Yes, there are people who *wouldn't* evacute, but don't confuse them with the people who *couldn't* evacuate.

[Nova]

The smugness and heartlessness of some posters here continues to amaze me.

Gee, some people underestimated the destructive power of Katrina (a group that includes the President, the Director of FEMA and the whole federal clown crew who apparently couldn't understand the situation even days AFTER the storm). Well, those who didn't evacuate made a mistake so they certainly deserve to starve to death. Slowly.

And a lot of people are poor - so of course they deserve whatever horrors they encounter. Maybe the nightmare will teach them a valuable lesson, like... uh... "Don't be poor!"

But the worst, apparently, are those wasteful people who chose to make SOS signs instead of eating their spray paint. How can they be so selfish during a crisis?!

While we're praying for the needy along the Gulf, we should spend a few prayers on our fellow Americans who suffer from having too much.

[Nova]

Exactly. I'm with you Nan. I remember hearing somewhere that it would have cost $1-2 Billion to fix the system - now they're looking at $100 Billion to rebuild.

The weakest link for me appears to be the Governor - I've seen the Governor of Texas on TV more than her.

Do you think maybe the governor of Louisiana is a little busy right now? Maybe her primary job isn't making TV appearances to entertain you?

[Cypros]

The smugness and heartlessness of some posters here continues to amaze me.

These same posters are the ones who criticize the behavior of victims of war and other ravages across the world. They like to call them "animals" and pass moral judgement on them because they do not sit around passively when there is no food, water in sight nor or relief from terrifying circumstances. Well, now it is blatantly clear that even Americans will behave the same way when they find themselves in inhumane circumstances. I doubt that the breakdown of civility would have occured if our government had managed to accomplish one task -- get food and water to the victims as quickly as possible (ie. a day or two)

[Olivia77]

IMO, there was little to no planning and little to no leadership in the State of Louisiana. From the little coverage that I have seen in Mississippi and Alabama (who had areas totally decimated by the hurricane), they are not having nearly the same problems as Louisiana. IMO, this is due to those particular states' good planning and leadership.

The little coverage on other states is due to the media is focusing more on New Orleans right now. They said we wouldn't even begin to see the true destruction of Mississippi for quite some time because entire towns were wiped off the map. Many are currently sealed off due to destroyed bridges, there's no way to call for help, and no way to get in there.

There was a failure at all levels of government. The federal government has already admitted that it's response was not acceptable nor adequate, I'm not sure why people are still denying that fact.

[SieSie]

Hello, there. :blowkiss: Did you read kgeaux's post stating that the Governor of Louisiana delayed giving the okay for help to enter the state? If memory serves me, President Bush approved help several days BEFORE the storm. If local government refuses to allow entry UNTIL it is almost too late, there's not much that can be done.

I also heard news reports of thugs shooting at the helicopters. I can well imagine that they couldn't get close enough to drop supplies.

IMO, there was little to no planning and little to no leadership in the State of Louisiana. From the little coverage that I have seen in Mississippi and Alabama (who had areas totally decimated by the hurricane), they are not having nearly the same problems as Louisiana. IMO, this is due to those particular states' good planning and leadership.

Yeah, I understand all of that and that's why it's so hard for me. I see both sides. I can't blame any one particular area of government or organization, because I think more could've and should've been done on ALL levels. It's easy to sit back and judge, and I try very hard not to do that - I just feel so sad and helpless and most people just want someone to blame. There will never be one specific person to blame, the blame lies (lays?) in many, many areas.

The local government for not accepting the help that was offered; the federal government for not accepting some of the offers from other countries for lower fuel and emergency personnel and supplies and planes, etc. and for not sending in Navy SEALS and SWAT teams to control the lawlessness; whatever political stuff went on behind closed doors as to why these levee's weren't reconstructed years ago when engineers said it could not withstand more than a Cat. 3 hurricane (all political money crap that I'll never understand); the few *degenerates who chose to not only hinder the rescue and relief efforts, but actually caused more damage, fear, panic and deaths. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Things were not organized or planned, and as you and others have stated, that part does boil down to the local government not having enough of an organized relief effort beforehand and a disaster recovery effort afterwards. SUPPOSEDLY buses were taken around to the poor districts and people were being asked to evacuate. Since I didn't see any photos of such efforts, or hear stories (yet) of people who were offered a way out BEFORE the damage was done, it's hard for me to believe that it was done to the extent that it should've been done. There should’ve been tons of buses, with people on bullhorns and sirens. Maybe there were, I don’t know yet.

While I've heard it mentioned that some who stayed behind did so because they refused to leave their ill or elderly loved ones behind - if this is true, then why didn't these supposed evacuation efforts take the ill and elderly out themselves while there was still time? I will wait until I hear some stories from the people themselves, as to what really happened with the evacuation efforts beforehand.

For those who chose to stay behind because they wanted the chaos and knew they could take advantage of an abandoned city to rob and loot and rape and murder, they have none of my sympathy or compassion and I hope that someday they’ll “get theirs” (karma).

As for those who chose to stay behind because they thought they could weather it out, had been through hurricanes before, didn't know the levee would break, etc... I can’t help but still feel empathy for them, as no one could predict the levee breaking. They actually did weather the hurricane and could’ve survived had it not been for the flooding. My heart goes out to all of them.

And we definitely can’t forget those who simply could not get out.

May God bless them all.

*Degenerate:
1. A depraved, corrupt, or vicious person.
2. A person lacking or having progressively lost normative biological or psychological characteristics.
Source: Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=degenerate)

[tybee204]

Lets keep the posts on the topic and not the other posters. Every opinion is valid on WS. We may not agree with each other but all are entitled to their opinion.

[Nova]

I assume people refuse to accept how badly the Feds - led by Bush's incompetent country club pals - have screwed up because then they'd have to accept some responsibility for sending the a$$clowns to Washington.

(I'm not really sure what an a$$clown is, but I saw it on the net the other day and it keeps coming to mind.)

It's more comfortable to blame a major and a governor in a jurisdiction where the blamers don't vote.

What the fingerpointers refuse to recognize is that most of the mayor's and governor's resources are simply gone.

[TexMex]

I was at the Astrodome yesterday and most I had contact with were furious
at the local government. The inability of the levee system to withstand a Cat 4 or 5 had been known for decades. Betsy hit NO in 1965 and was a fast moving Cat 3 and NO flooded. Local officials did order a mandatory evacuation
yet those I talked with said they were told if they had no transportation to go to the Superdome and expect to be there two days without power and water. Yet the buses here were not used to evacuate the poor and elderly
and hospitalized to Baton Rouge or Lake Charles or Houston! The local politicians seem to be able to provide transportation for the poor on Election Day to get them to the polls yet cannot/will not provide transportation to save their lives from a Cat 4 cane that they know will cause major flooding.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

[Nova]

Lets keep the posts on the topic and not the other posters. Every opinion is valid on WS. We may not agree with each other but all are entitled to their opinion.

I'm sorry, Tybee. I'm the prime offender here. I will endeavor to control myself.

[Olivia77]

I was at the Astrodome yesterday and most I had contact with were furious
at the local government. The inability of the levee system to withstand a Cat 4 or 5 had been known for decades. Betsy hit NO in 1965 and was a fast moving Cat 3 and NO flooded.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

I know, it's really terrible. The local government has been asking for money for years to repair the levee, but just couldn't get the federal funding. :(

ETA: P.S. Did you see the story on the guy who just took a bus, picked people up and drove to Texas? What a hero!

[Cypros]

I'm sorry, Tybee. I'm the prime offender here. I will endeavor to control myself.

No, I think it is me and I will also control myself :o -- but I'm glad I got that off my chest!!

[Nova]

I don't see how anyone can defend the Federal Administration at the moment, but to be fair, the corruption and incompetence of local and state government in Louisiana is rather legendary. (I'm not calling the NO mayor or the LA governor corrupt; I'm just acknowledging that the area has been badly governed for centuries.)

This does not, however, excuse incompetence in Washington.

[Ntegrity]

I never thought I'd hear that one on Websleuths. And I suppose the children getting raped by the thugs in the city right now were "asking for it," when they were at 711 looting for food because they didn't evacuate?
I never implied a criminal act like rape was on par with stupidity or irresponsibility for ignoring a mandatory evacuation. I watched too many people who were being told to evacuate laugh it off saying "I've been through hurricanes before and I'll make it through this one." One woman had her 3 year-old daughter on her hip. I wonder where they are now!!? And I haven't heard anyone complain about looters taking food or water. It's the TVs, electronics, jewelry and 10 pair of Reeboks I have trouble with.

[Olivia77]

I never implied a criminal act like rape was on par with stupidity or irresponsibility for ignoring a mandatory evacuation. I watched too many people who were being told to evacuate laugh it off saying "I've been through hurricanes before and I'll make it through this one." One woman had her 3 year-old daughter on her hip. I wonder where they are now!!? And I haven't heard anyone complain about looters taking food or water. It's the TVs, electronics, jewelry and 10 pair of Reeboks I have trouble with.

Thanks for clarifying, it's just when I hear victim + their fault, I bristle. And there were people who *could not* get out, I don't think it's right to put them in with the roving gangs who stayed for reasons like you mentioned above, to get their new plasma tv.

[Nova]

No, I think it is me and I will also control myself :o -- but I'm glad I got that off my chest!!

Ditto.

I hope it isn't talking about other posters to say that all of us need to see that people in chaotic, life-threatening circumstances do not always behave well.

Some are heroic, of course, and we rightfully celebrate the heroes. But a significant percentage of any group will panic in the face of thirst, starvation, darkness and death.

[Nova]

I never implied a criminal act like rape was on par with stupidity or irresponsibility for ignoring a mandatory evacuation. I watched too many people who were being told to evacuate laugh it off saying "I've been through hurricanes before and I'll make it through this one." One woman had her 3 year-old daughter on her hip. I wonder where they are now!!? And I haven't heard anyone complain about looters taking food or water. It's the TVs, electronics, jewelry and 10 pair of Reeboks I have trouble with.

Under the circumstances, who cares about a few TVs? Joke is on the looters anyway - there being no electricity with which to run appliances.

[nanandjim]

...when I hear victim + their fault, I bristle...
I agree. To me, "victim" means something bad has happened to someone beyond his/her control. I think that we are labeling everyone affected by the storm as "victims." In actuality, many of those left behind chose not to leave even though they were given advance warning and offered assistance to do so.

I wouldn't want to be in that position, no matter what. However, I feel the worst for the true victims that didn't have the ability to leave the city. :(

[tybee204]

The senseless looting was the first free pass to Anarchy. When I saw 3 NOLA police officers in uniform looting a store I was totally dumbfounded. The system broke down from the bottem all the way to the top. But the buck has to stop somewhere.

[nanandjim]

...who cares about a few TVs?...
I care because all of this theft will drive up prices for all consumers.

[Olivia77]

I have a question guys. I have an email from one of the New Orleans brides from my bride-board about her experience that I'd like to share. Where can I post it?

[Cypros]

Under the circumstances, who cares about a few TVs? Joke is on the looters anyway - there being no electricity with which to run appliances.

And when they are FINALLY evacuated they will have to leave the TVs behind!

[nanandjim]

...When I saw 3 NOLA police officers in uniform looting a store I was totally dumbfounded.
Do you see this on television?? :eek:

[tybee204]

If you have permission from the sender to share the email you can post it.

[tybee204]

Do you see this on television?? :eek:


Yes and the reporter tried to address it with one of the Officers and was told to get out of the store. They were pushing a shopping cart loading it up. The store was full of looters at the time.

[Ntegrity]

The senseless looting was the first free pass to Anarchy. When I saw 3 NOLA police officers in uniform looting a store I was totally dumbfounded. The system broke down from the bottem all the way to the top. But the buck has to stop somewhere.
I missed that. What were they taking?

[nanandjim]

Yes and the reporter tried to address it with one of the Officers and was told to get out of the store. They were pushing a shopping cart loading it up. The store was full of looters at the time.
What a sad state of affairs. I sure hope that the faces can be clearly seen because I would think that these guys would be fired and prosecuted.

[Ntegrity]

What a sad state of affairs. I sure hope that the faces can be clearly seen because I would think that these guys would be fired and prosecuted.
Unless they were taking food and water, I agree.

[nanandjim]

Unless they were taking food and water, I agree.
I agree. However, I was making the assumption that, because they refused to talk with the reporter, they were up to no good.

[Cypros]

The senseless looting was the first free pass to Anarchy. When I saw 3 NOLA police officers in uniform looting a store I was totally dumbfounded. The system broke down from the bottem all the way to the top. But the buck has to stop somewhere.

I did hear one interview where some police officers said they were ordered to the store to get supplies for victims, but I don't know if that was the only case. I did see some video footage of female police officers that looked to be "shopping".

[Olivia77]

EDITED TO ADD MORE

Let me know if this works:

"We (Andy, Kitty, the dogs and I) finally got out of Memorial Medical Center (Baptist) yesterday (Thursday). It was a nightmare. We went to the hospital on Sunday night (we usually go there to volunteer for the hurricanes because they always end of being short staffed and need people). After the hurricane on Monday, everything looked somewhat ok and none of the mayhem had started. On Monday night, the hospital decided to start evacuating all patients and others afterwards.

We kept hearing that we were going to be getting out and that people were coming for us but no one ever showed up. Then we heard we couldn’t take any pets and that we were going to have to leave them behind and euthanize them. That just wasn’t an option for most people with pets; although a few bird and dogs ended up dying of heat stroke and dehydration. Some of the nurses ended up putting their health dogs down because at one point, it looked like it wasn’t possible to take a pet.

Being at the hospital was scary. There was a building across the street had been broken into and occupied by “unfriendly” looters with guns. They were directly across the street from the parking lot where we were set up with the dogs, our supplies and my car. There was nothing stopping them from getting in because they had a flat bottomed boat and could easily come across the street and up with ramp of the parking lot which they tried to do a few times. That’s what the scary part was. Being in the hospital with the sick, walking around with the stagnant, smelly air wasn’t the worst part. We tried to sleep at night but were scared for our lives.

On Wednesday, two brothers from Thibodaux came up to New Orleans with 2 airboats to get their mom out of Lifecare (hospice at the hospital). As they were putting her into the boat, she died. They were kind enough to stay and helped to evacuate 300 people, all family members of patients that were being evacuated via helicopter. They then said they would be back on Thursday at 7am to continue helping. Thursday morning came and we didn’t see any boats or hear ANY helicopters landing on the heliport. That’s when we all really started to get worried. We literally had a HUGE sense of relief on Wednesday night that we were going to be rescued. We were able to drink the water we had without feeling like we had to conserve, we were able to sleep in the car with the dogs (a/c on) to try and cool down without having to feel like we had to conserve the gas. We had packed up 1 bag each and hid everything we possibly could in Andy’s office and the cars. We KNOW both of our cars are going to looted and that another thing to worry about…hoping that our cars would be spared. Those people out there looting are the lowest of the low. They do not care about people, people’s safety or people’s property. They have no respect for anything, not even human life. We saw many looters wading through the water, passing up people who needed help so they could get into stores or homes to loot. They weren’t in “survival mode.” Survival mode is breaking into a car and hotwiring it to get out of the city, breaking into stores for food and water. Survival mode is not breaking into jewelry and electronic stores. Make no mistake, they are animals. "

Thursday, around 10:30 am, we heard a ton of helicopters coming in and out of the helipad that were hired by Tenet to get us out. They would’ve been there sooner but the government had stopped ALL copters and boats from coming in. I am very, very disappointed in the government’s efforts to help. We really feel like they didn’t do anything to help us. We had NO food or supplies dropped to us, we didn’t have any way to get out, and we didn’t have ANY protection. We saw plenty of helicopters flying around, boats going around…if those people were able to get in, the government should’ve been in there helping us. We had patients in the hospital, sick people who needed water and medical supplies. Outside, we had drug addicts and looters trying to get into an unsecured hospital to take our food, water, medical and pharmaceutical supplies! The National Guard was there for 1 day…on Monday after the storm passed and before the flooding started. They were completely useless! They came in and didn’t do anything but eat food and drink water we had. They walked around and said they were only there to show there presence. They didn’t even have guns. The looters were NOT afraid of them and not only that, the National Guard didn’t do anything to help stop the people from coming in and causing trouble.

A few hours before we got out the state police FINALLY showed up with riffles, shotguns and handguns. There were some shots fired right in front of us and our dogs were right in the line of fire if a huge shoot out would’ve started.

More at link:
http://theknot.com/talk_mb_post.htm?folder=CLOCAL029&Object=1125755420061980&market=029&keyword=NEW%20ORLEANS

[tybee204]

It was 3 female Officers in Uniform. They had shoes, clothes, I dont know what all else. When they saw the camera and the Reporter asked why they were taking things he was told to mind his business and get out of the store.

[TexMex]

NO is a violent city with a police force that is not respected in the community.
They have more murders per capita in NO a city of approx 1 million than in NYC. These factors were part of the security problems facing officials post Katrina.

AP article August 19, 2005

But by last year, the number in New Orleans was back up to 265. There had been 192 this year by mid-August, compared with 169 at the same time in 2004. Adjusted for population, those numbers dwarf murder rates in Washington, Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City.

For police, recruitment is a continuing problem. The department has a poor image in the community, with allegations of brutality and corruption dating back decades. The city now has 3.14 officers per 1,000 residents -- less than half the rate in Washington, D.C.

Scharf, director for the Center for Society, Law and Justice, said extra police are not always the solution. ''My heart goes out to these police officers,'' he said. ''They're fighting public apathy, racial division and a dysfunctional court system.''

Only one in four people arrested in the city for murder is convicted, according to one study. AP

[Ntegrity]

They weren’t in “survival mode.” Survival mode is breaking into a car and hotwiring it to get out of the city, breaking into stores for food and water. Survival mode is not breaking into jewelry and electronic stores. Make no mistake, they are animals. "
They truly are animals with no conscience or concern for anyone but themselves. Thanks for sharing this post, Olivia.

[less0305]

And when they are FINALLY evacuated they will have to leave the TVs behind!

Don't be surprised if when the trucks lined up to go in and repair some phone lines and some electricity some of those looters will be enjoying their new plasmas in the houses of some of those folks who chose to evacuate. Remember, not every house in NO was in the flooded areas. There are already stories of people who have "squatted" in the houses left behind by other people. People aren't honestly believing that the gun-toting thugs are going back to houses each day that are flooded to the attics, are they? Thugs in a green cadillac were shooting at cops and national guard. Think that was their Cadillac? I doubt it. Taking a car to get out of the city upon desparate measures is understandable. Taking a car to joy ride, haul their loot around, finding a house to squat in, while shooting at cops and raping and murdering is not.

[tybee204]

Unless they were taking food and water, I agree.

They were definitly not getting food, water or medical supplies. I saw shoes, clothings and cases that looked like DVD's or CD's. I dont know what all else. It was a very quick shot of their shopping cart.

[Olivia77]

They truly are animals with no conscience or concern for anyone but themselves. Thanks for sharing this post, Olivia.

You're welcome. Did you get to read the rest? It is quite interesting.

[Ntegrity]

It was 3 female Officers in Uniform. They had shoes, clothes, I dont know what all else. When they saw the camera and the Reporter asked why they were taking things he was told to mind his business and get out of the store.
Since they were caught on camera, I'm sure they will be prosecuted. At least I hope so. :razz:

[Ntegrity]

You're welcome. Did you get to read the rest? It is quite interesting.
I'm trying ... finally got the page to load. Maybe too many people trying to view it right now.

[less0305]

Since they were caught on camera, I'm sure they will be prosecuted. At least I hope so. :razz:


They were probably part of the 1/3 of the force that just quit and left their comrades in the lurch anyway.

[Cypros]

I think people's genuine concern for their pets is another explanation for the large numbers who stayed in their homes. Pets were not allowed intp the Sueprdome. I understanf that but I empathize with pet owners. I have a 17 year old cat who has been with me through so many good and bad times. I would never leave him behind to drown or die of starvation or heat stroke.

[Ntegrity]

I think people's genuine concern for their pets is another explanation for the large numbers who stayed in their homes. Pets were not allowed intp the Sueprdome. I understanf that but I empathize with pet owners. I have a 17 year old cat who has been with me through so many good and bad times. I would never leave him behind to drown or die of starvation or heat stroke.
That's a good point. I would never leave my animals behind, no matter what. Every community should have an emergency plan that takes this into consideration. My local kennel club has worked with the local agencies to develop a plan for pets. It's very important to people that their animals have a safe place to ride out the storm.

[Cypros]

That's a good point. I would never leave my animals behind, no matter what. Every community should have an emergency plan that takes this into consideration. My local kennel club has worked with the local agencies to develop a plan for pets. It's very important to people that their animals have a safe place to ride out the storm.

Wow! We agree on something! See what good animals do for us humans!

If we are going to be a compassionate, humane and truly "civilized" society, we have to open our hearts to all animals -- domestic pets cannot be abandoned as useless rubbish when disaster strikes.

Has anybody heard anything about the NO Zoo? I am sure it is another tragedy. :(

[Ntegrity]

I've wondered about the zoo and the aquarium. I haven't heard a thing.

[Olivia77]

I've wondered about the zoo and the aquarium. I haven't heard a thing.

The zoo and aqaurium sustained minimal damage. The only death was a fish at the aquarium who was sick prior to the hurricane.

[tybee204]

The parents of a friend are still stuck in NO. The could not drive out . They are elderly . They were notified yesterday that they needed to walk 9 blocks to where a bus will pick them up to take them to Baton Rouge where their daughter can meet them. They have been living on the second floor of their house for the last week as the first floor is flooded. These 80+ year old people have to walk 9 blocks threw 2 ft of water. They will not be allowed to take their 12 year old pet on the bus. They have to leave it behind in the house to die.

[Cypros]

The zoo and aqaurium sustained minimal damage. The only death was a fish at the aquarium who was sick prior to the hurricane.
Really?! I am happy to hear that! Where did you get that information? Are the animals being cared for? I image the zoo had a large stock of food and supplies right there. And fortunately, for the animals, their food is not desirable to humans.

[Nova]

I agree. To me, "victim" means something bad has happened to someone beyond his/her control. I think that we are labeling everyone affected by the storm as "victims." In actuality, many of those left behind chose not to leave even though they were given advance warning and offered assistance to do so.

I wouldn't want to be in that position, no matter what. However, I feel the worst for the true victims that didn't have the ability to leave the city. :(

Oh, please. The hurricane was beyond anyone's control - so to that extent they ARE all victims.

But, yes, some people - maybe most people - contribute in some way to their own misfortunate. They buy tickets for the Titanic, they go sightseeing at the WTC on the wrong day, they ignore warnings from a government that has lied repeatedly to them in the past.

Compassion for so-called "innocent" victims is cheap. A generous spirit shows compassion for the unfortuante despite their mistakes.

[Mabel]

Why is homeland security even involved? this has nothing to do with terrorism it's a natural disaster :confused: do they think al qaeda is behind the levees breaking?:confused:

They have to send someone in. Bush has been dismantling FEMA since 9/11. This was going to be the department's last year of existence.

[Ntegrity]

The zoo and aqaurium sustained minimal damage. The only death was a fish at the aquarium who was sick prior to the hurricane.
I just found this article (http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0830-new_orleans_aquarium.html):

The Audubon Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans apparently survived Hurricane Katrina relatively unscathed according to a report in The Baltimore Sun. Hurricane Katrina hit the Louisiana city Monday.

According to Ron Forman, president of the Audubon Nature Institute that oversees the city's aquarium and zoo, only a few flamingos died and was little other loss of animal life. The Audubon Zoo also fared well in the storm suffering limited damage from fallen trees.

More at the website.

[Nova]

I care because all of this theft will drive up prices for all consumers.

:rolleyes:

[SandyBee]

Here's the video of the Police looting.......I see no survival items in that cart what so ever.


http://www.filecabi.net/v/file/hurricane-katrina-police-loot/wmv

[Cypros]

CNN just showed a reporter at the airport (I think) holding up a little puppy named Goliath who had been found tied to a tree in a yard. He was there for 2-3 days. The family was not allowed to take him on an evacuation bus. He's a very cute and VERY LUCKY puppy.

[Ntegrity]

The hurricane was beyond anyone's control - so to that extent they ARE all victims.
Their response wasn't beyond their control. Many people should have taken a MANDATORY evacuation to mean mandatory. I do feel very bad for the ones who couldn't leave for whatever reason. Those who chose to stay have to assume some responsibility for their own fate. Yes, the government response was inadequate, on both state and federal levels, but they can't bear all the blame.

[nanandjim]

That's a good point. I would never leave my animals behind, no matter what. Every community should have an emergency plan that takes this into consideration. My local kennel club has worked with the local agencies to develop a plan for pets. It's very important to people that their animals have a safe place to ride out the storm.
We actually took our dog with us when we evacuated from Florida during Hurricane Frederick. We could not bring him into the National Armory. So, we took turns going out to the car, looking after him, letting him out of the car, etc. It was a hassle, but we did it.

I understand that pets are like children and very much dependent on their owners. I kind of raised my eyebrows when I heard the recommendation was to just let them go free to give them a chance at survival.

There should be a plan for pets. However, I can well imagine that the planning would take about as much or even more than it would for people!

[Nova]

That's a good point. I would never leave my animals behind, no matter what. Every community should have an emergency plan that takes this into consideration. My local kennel club has worked with the local agencies to develop a plan for pets. It's very important to people that their animals have a safe place to ride out the storm.

Nor would I leave my cat, guys. I can agree in theory that my priority is wrong, but that's how I feel.

[Ntegrity]

Here's the video of the Police looting.......I see no survival items in that cart what so ever.


http://www.filecabi.net/v/file/hurricane-katrina-police-loot/wmv
That is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. I hope they get the book thrown at them.

[KrazyKollector]

:rolleyes: <------- Me standing over there with Nan.:doh: <-----------Me right there with you all!

I hate it when the city and state drops the ball and then whines that the US Gov. isn't "taking care of them". :hand:

Just as in 9/11, some can't help but politicize it. Gotta bring up all the "right" words to use. Makes me want to barf.:sick:

Edited to update the corner counter. :angel:

[Nova]

Their response wasn't beyond their control. Many people should have taken a MANDATORY evacuation to mean mandatory. I do feel very bad for the ones who couldn't leave for whatever reason. Those who chose to stay have to assume some responsibility for their own fate. Yes, the government response was inadequate, on both state and federal levels, but they can't bear all the blame.

If you read my entire post you would have discovered that I already acknowledged and addressed the fact that people contribute to their misfortune.

We have a government that lies to us repeatedly and without conscience. So let's don't be surprised that some people stop listening.

[Ntegrity]

We have a government that lies to us repeatedly and without conscience. So let's don't be surprised that some people stop listening.
Oh brother!! I won't even bother commenting on that one.

[nanandjim]

That is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. I hope they get the book thrown at them.
I just have to shake my head. How absolutely disgusting. If nothing else, I hope that Walmart prosecutes.

[Ntegrity]

If you read my entire post you would have discovered that I already acknowledged and addressed the fact that people contribute to their misfortune.
Yes, you did but you put it in the context of being a passenger on the Titanic. A better scenario would be that the people on the Titanic were told the ship would sink but they still chose to risk it because they wanted to say they were on its maiden voyage. :rolleyes:

[nanandjim]

...We have a government that lies to us repeatedly and without conscience. So let's don't be surprised that some people stop listening.
:rolleyes:

[Cypros]

Ah! But the residents of New Orleans were already on board (the Titanic). They trusted that it was unsinkable as their government (the shipbuilders/wealthy owners) claimed.

[Nova]

Yes, you did but you put it in the context of being a passenger on the Titanic. A better scenario would be that the people on the Titanic were told the ship would sink but they still chose to risk it because they wanted to say they were on its maiden voyage. :rolleyes:

In fact, there were doubters about the ship's structural integrity. And everyone knew the WTC had been attacked before.

And though you don't want to "bother" to comment, there is plenty of cause to be skeptical of what our government tells us (and I'm not just talking about the War in Iraq and, no, I'm not a conspiracy theorist as a rule).

But we agree that everyone who could have evacuated, should have.

My point wasn't that the Titanic and NO in the face of a Cat 5 are analogous, just that we all make decisions - some wise under the circumstances, some not so much - that help to determine our fortune.

And I'll repeat: it requires little to show compassion for the completely helpless. Our challenge is to find compassion for those who suffer for their mistakes. (If you need an authoritative source for this argument, I believe Jesus had a little something to say on the subject.)

[nanandjim]

...Our challenge is to find compassion for those who suffer for their mistakes. (If you need an authoritative source for this argument, I believe Jesus had a little something to say on the subject.)
I had to chuckle at this comment. Oh, how I wish that I were as perfect as Jesus. I must admit, though, you do make a good point! :)

[Ntegrity]

Ah! But the residents of New Orleans were already on board (the Titanic). They trusted that it was unsinkable as their government (the shipbuilders/wealthy owners) claimed.
Who claimed that? I've known -- as I thought everyone knew -- that a city below sea level, surrounded by water, was living on borrowed time.

[TexMex]

Who claimed that? I've known -- as I thought everyone knew -- that a city below sea level, surrounded by water, was living on borrowed time.


People are strange....San Francisco was rebuilt after the 1906 quake. Galveston lost over 6,000 souls in a 1900 hurricane yet still stands today.

NO has been there since 1718 and has survived previous hurricanes.
People here choose to ride out hurricanes here, too. I have done so in the past.
But if a cat 4 or 5 is headed this way---I'm outta here!

[Ntegrity]

And though you don't want to "bother" to comment, there is plenty of cause to be skeptical of what our government tells us (and I'm not just talking about the War in Iraq and, no, I'm not a conspiracy theorist as a rule).
Well, I'll continue to believe the National Weather Service and evacuate when they recommend it. Since they're the ones who recommend evacuation, I'm wondering if they're "the government" you're talking about.


But we agree that everyone who could have evacuated, should have.
Yep.


My point wasn't that the Titanic and NO in the face of a Cat 5 are analogous, just that we all make decisions - some wise under the circumstances, some not so much - that help to determine our fortune.
Our fortune or our fate.


And I'll repeat: it requires little to show compassion for the completely helpless. Our challenge is to find compassion for those who suffer for their mistakes. (If you need an authoritative source for this argument, I believe Jesus had a little something to say on the subject.)
There's also something He said about reaping what we sow. When we ignore warnings issued for our own safety, we may have to suffer the consequences of that choice. My compassion is for those who had no choice in the matter and had to pay with their lives.

[Ntegrity]

But if a cat 4 or 5 is headed this way---I'm outta here!
I'm with you. As a life-long Florida resident, I've been through many hurricanes, but I know that a Cat 4 or 5 is going to devastate everything in its path. I'm outta here too. :eek:

[DEPUTYDAWG]

But if a cat 4 or 5 is headed this way---I'm outta here!

I'm experienced in earthquakes and wildfires, but hurricanes/tornadoes, nope. So, lemme know when it's time to get the heck outta Dodge, okay?! I will NOT be one to stay behind!

[lorann]

:truce: I have no idea how the tone got this way - I think we are all angry because there is so much devastation and we can't control it.

So far everyone has agreed that everyone should have evacuated, and there are reasons why some didn't - some couldn't, some didn't believe they had to, some just not educated enough to follow orders.

We have agreed the difference between actual looters and those getting supplies for survival.

We have agreed there are good cops and bad cops.

We have agreed there should have been plans way before this, for many generations and throughout many administrations.

We will all be paying for this for many years to come - despite who did or did not do what.

I know there are more things we all agree on. I just want all of these people taken somewhere safe and the sooner the better.

[Ntegrity]

:truce: I have no idea how the tone got this way - I think we are all angry because there is so much devastation and we can't control it.
We're disagreeing but I think we're being civil about it ... aren't we? :waitasec:

[SieSie]

:truce: I have no idea how the tone got this way - I think we are all angry because there is so much devastation and we can't control it.

So far everyone has agreed that everyone should have evacuated, and there are reasons why some didn't - some couldn't, some didn't believe they had to, some just not educated enough to follow orders.

We have agreed the difference between actual looters and those getting supplies for survival.

We have agreed there are good cops and bad cops.

We have agreed there should have been plans way before this, for many generations and throughout many administrations.

We will all be paying for this for many years to come - despite who did or did not do what.

I know there are more things we all agree on. I just want all of these people taken somewhere safe and the sooner the better.
:clap: :clap: :clap: Thank you, very well said!!!

I found this, about the evacuation:
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency, and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. Some of those who remained behind were too poor to escape via normal public or private transportation. The poorest residents had no way out of town. Photos have shown fleets of school buses still parked in their flooded lots. Why those buses were not pressed into service, no one knows. The City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan clearly states, “The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas,” and “Transportation will be provided to those persons requiring public transportation from the area.” Part II, Section B, paragraph 5 of the Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan (supplement 1A) states, “School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles, and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.”

Public buses only took people to the Superdome, which was clearly not outside the threatened area. The school buses were never used at all. Emergency plans are created for a reason, and need to be followed in order to ensure the safety of the citizens. Source: ChronWatch.com (http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=16582)

[PrayersForMaura]

People can continue to displace blame here and there but the fact is that this is a natural disaster. Someone will always want to blame the government, Bush and the people themselves.

I don't think sitting behind your computer blaming someone is really helping anyone else survive, or the dead either.

I guess all those who died in the Tsunami died due to their nation's government's fault, too?

Add up all the people who die in this natural disaster and then take together all the people who are murdered all year long in this nation by people they know and love and trust and let's find a way to blame government for everyone in the nation's death. :rolleyes:

Maybe it will make everyone then feel better about their personal situations
or their political affiliations.
But it sure isn't helping the situation.

Take someone into your home who is homeless .... if you have the room, why not? Aren't we all to blame that there are homeless people? Couldn't we all do more?
Why is it just the "President's" responsibility?

[Mabel]

People can cotninue to displace blame here and there but the fact is that this is a natural disaster. Someone will always want to blame the government, Bush and the people themselves.

Yes, it was a natural disaster. But it wasn't unexpected. For years our tax money has been spent on government departments that were supposed to prepare for this sort of thing and be ready to step in immediately when assistance was needed. They failed. We have every right to gripe about it.

I don't think sitting behind your computer blaming someone is really helping anyone else survive, or the dead either.

So, unless our time on the computer is spent helping others survive, we shouldn't post? I will immediately cancel my registration at the game sites. How many people did you save while typing out your post?

I guess all those who died in the Tsunami died due to their nation's government's fault, too.

Don't know. That's not the issue before us at this time.

Add up all the people who die in this natural disaster and then take together all the people who are murdered all year long in this nation by people they know and love and trust and let's find a way to blame government for everyone in the nation's death. :rolleyes:

So we can't discuss this current situation unless we resolve all other situations first?

Maybe it will make everyone then feel better about their personal situations.
But it sure isn't helping the situation.

Perhaps it is. We've seen where our government is lacking. We can now demand answers and solutions before something like this happens again.

Take someone into your home who is homeless .... if you have the room, why not? Aren't we all to blame that there are homeless people? Couldn't we all do more?
Why is it just the "President's" responsibility?

No one is blaming "just the President". People are attempting to learn where the system failed. There is no justifiable reason that tens of thousands of people in America are without food and water 5 days after a disaster strikes. We should be irate. We should be questioning our government. What we should not do is place blind faith in anyone at this point. We can't fix the problem if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

[PrayersForMaura]

There were people with money that couldnt get out. Airports closed, no rental cars available etc. Some people hired taxi's and limo services at thousands of dollars to get them out. The guests at the hotels are there because they couldnt get out.

These people couldnt get out yet we expect the poorest of the poor and the elderly with little or no money and no transportation to have gotten out?
you can sell something in your house to get out, or ya, take a cab, expensive as it is, to a shelter .... it was an emergency evacuation.... looks like from the photo below, many people took it seriously....
http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_564_images/katrina_hwy.jpg

Aug. 28: Interstate-10 westbound out of New Orleans is jammed with traffic as residents evacuate ahead of Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_564_images/katrina_hwy.jpg

[kgeaux]

Do you think maybe the governor of Louisiana is a little busy right now? Maybe her primary job isn't making TV appearances to entertain you?


She's probably playing a little CYA right now, actually. She is a great lady, before the storm you could see her concern, she looked like she did not sleep for days before that storm hit. I do not know why she delayed ordering the troops in, but it's been in the news that they were mobilized and ready to go, supplies (food and water) had been gathered and stored before the storm hit, and she delayed giving the orders for search and rescue to enter and delayed giving the ok for the supplies to be brought in. The million dollar question is why, and I don't know the answer. I don't know if anyone knows the answer.

[Maral]

No one is blaming "just the President". People are attempting to learn where the system failed. There is no justifiable reason that tens of thousands of people in America are without food and water 5 days after a disaster strikes. We should be irate. We should be questioning our government. What we should not do is place blind faith in anyone at this point. We can't fix the problem if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

Excellent post, Mabel.

[Olivia77]

People can continue to displace blame here and there but the fact is that this is a natural disaster. Someone will always want to blame the government, Bush and the people themselves.

***That's what we do in America, we hold people responsible for their actions. No one is blaming anyone for the hurricane, it's the response that we're discussing. ***

I don't think sitting behind your computer blaming someone is really helping anyone else survive, or the dead either.

***Actually, finding out what breakdowns in the system contributed to the slow response can and will help people survive, because there will be other disasters. But you are right, it can't bring back the dead. Just lessen their numbers next time.***

I guess all those who died in the Tsunami died due to their nation's government's fault, too?

*** No one is saying that someone in the government went out and conjured up this hurricane...***

Add up all the people who die in this natural disaster and then take together all the people who are murdered all year long in this nation by people they know and love and trust and let's find a way to blame government for everyone in the nation's death. :rolleyes:

Maybe it will make everyone then feel better about their personal situations
or their political affiliations.
But it sure isn't helping the situation.

***I don't see how it isn't helping the situation. From reading threads like this, I've learned that personally, I need to be better prepared for a natural disaster. I've learned from Ntegrity that there are things I can do in my community to make sure there are places for my pets, and other pets to go should we need to evacuate. I think it's helping because now my family will be better prepared.***

Take someone into your home who is homeless .... if you have the room, why not? Aren't we all to blame that there are homeless people? Couldn't we all do more?
Why is it just the "President's" responsibility?

***I would venture to guess that everyone on this thread, who IMO has been discussing this in a civil manner, has donated in the past, and in this instance to charities who need it. Yes, we can all do more, that's a good point and something to always keep in mind.***



My replies are starred.

[PrayersForMaura]

No one is blaming "just the President". People are attempting to learn where the system failed. There is no justifiable reason that tens of thousands of people in America are without food and water 5 days after a disaster strikes. We should be irate. We should be questioning our government. What we should not do is place blind faith in anyone at this point. We can't fix the problem if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.they ARE attempting to fix it and not everyone there is without food and water.
And yes, people ARE blaming just Bush. Maybe you aren't but people out there ARE. I don't think my post was addressing you personally, was it?? :confused:

The problem is obvious. I don't think anyone can ignore it, it's on the TV every time we turn it on. It's sad. With all the media camera there covering it, surely they brought people some food?

Instead of griping, what would everyone in here have suggested as the first step plan?? I'm just curious?

[Mabel]

you can sell something in your house to get out, or ya, take a cab, expensive as it is, to a shelter .... it was an emergency evacuation.... looks like from the photo below, many people took it seriously....
http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_564_images/katrina_hwy.jpg

Aug. 28: Interstate-10 westbound out of New Orleans is jammed with traffic as residents evacuate ahead of Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_564_images/katrina_hwy.jpg

Oh yeah, people who live on $8,000 or less per year have all kinds of valuables to sell. They can sell them to their neighbors, who probably live on even less. Take an expensive cab - they're all over the place during an evacuation. Better yet, evacuate in style. Hire a limo.

What, the people have no bread? Let them eat cake.

[Details]

I can see some people being unable to evacuate - but not 20% of the city.

I can see not wanting to go to the city sponsored evacuation centers because they won't take pets (I can't say I'd go without my cats) - but I think then people do have to accept their own responsibility for that choice - I'd know I was risking my life for my cats. I wouldn't do it if I had kids - it really is a choice to risk your life for your pets, and I couldn't do that to anyone else.

I am sure that most of the gangs that stayed behind did so to loot the place, and I've got no sympathy for them.

Yes, for everyone who had a choice about evacuating (and I count evacuating to the Superdome - that was the safest place, and has been a safe, if uncomfortable and disgusting place - and free buses and lots of publicity were provided about the availability of that option (I heard about it before the hurricane, so this isn't just some spin the officials are putting on a lackluster attempt) - there's no excuse not to take it), I think they should recognize they have some responsibility for their current predicament. Doesn't mean we should react any differently to them in their need now; but it's a lesson for everyone when they decide they won't evacuate when they could.



As to not letting the Red Cross in - I think they've got a point there. People are still wanting to stay in the city - while expecting to be fed, cared for, and rescued when they get in trouble. They shouldn't starve people or anything, but setting up a tent city, food for anyone who walks up would just mean that a lot of people would remain in the city instead of accepting evacuation. It's a hard thing to accept that your home city, everything you have is gone, that you can't even try to recover for at least 1-2 months; but that's how it has to be.

Attempting to make New Orleans even remotely habitable again is an enourmous task - it'll be far too hard if they also have to deal with people calling for rescue or food or water or medical assistance while they're trying to fix everything.

Yeah, it's cold and callous, and it's the solution that will in the long term have the best results for everyone. I always remember that classic House line - I've been cursed with the ability to do the math.

[PrayersForMaura]

Oh yeah, people who live on $8,000 or less per year have all kinds of valuables to sell. They can sell them to their neighbors, who probably live on even less. Take an expensive cab - they're all over the place during an evacuation. Better yet, evacuate in style. Hire a limo.

What, the people have no bread? Let them eat cake.

it takes how much to get to a shelter?? you're telling me they got to a superdome in horrendous conditions but they couldn't get their way to a shelter in better conditions??

[Mabel]

they ARE attempting to fix it and not everyone there is without food and water.
And yes, people ARE blaming just Bush. Maybe you aren't but people out there ARE. I don't think my post was addressing you personally, was it?? :confused:

The problem is obvious. I don't think anyone can ignore it, it's on the TV every time we turn it on. It's sad. With all the media camera there covering it, surely they brought people some food?

Instead of griping, what would everyone in here have suggested as the first step plan?? I'm just curious?


Well, as long as SOME people have food and water lets not trouble ourselves worrying about those who are dying. Odd that you, who are so upset that people are questioning the government's lack of response, are so quick to criticize the media for the same thing. It's the governments DUTY to assist these people, not the media's. How do you know that the media hasn't given assistance when they could? I've heard stories that many of them have.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

[QUOTE=SieSie I found this, about the evacuation:
Source: ChronWatch.com (http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=16582)[/QUOTE]


Dang, you find some very interesting articles! The part you highlighted about them not even following their own emergency plan, well...again, after the immediacy is over, there better be some housecleaning at that level....policies look great on paper, but they don't work if no one knows them....

I'm slowly starting to do some of that finger-pointing that I really didn't want to do so soon...help me! LOL ;) I know it doesn't help anything right now. Just glad to hear there is progress today

[Mabel]

it takes how much to get to a shelter?? you're telling me they got to a superdome in horrendous conditions but they couldn't get their way to a shelter in better conditions??

The majority of them were bused to the superdome. That's where they were told to go. Where is this better shelter that you speak of? Should they hire yachts to take them there through the flood waters?

[Beyond Belief]

The choice of shots the media shows us really can have a bad effect on how we think. Just one for instance comes to mind, that really upset me, showed one shot of being screaming for food and then a shot of a lady who had been given food and things, her comment was "yeah, we got food, something you heat yourself, we couldn't eat that stuff. we haven't had a hot meal all day.'

Well, I know that was a ready to eat meal she was given. our soldiers eat them, we lived on them after the hurricanes here in florida last year, so what can say. I do agree their not the most appetizing meals.

I am just trying to make the point that the news media controls how we react to these situations with what they share with us.

[Details]

you can sell something in your house to get out, or ya, take a cab, expensive as it is, to a shelter .... it was an emergency evacuation.... Sell to who? Cabs aren't available - they're evacuating too.

However, the free buses to the Superdome were available, and the Superdome was NOT full when the hurricane hit. That is the choice they made, to ride it out at home, rather than at the designated shelter.

I don't think it was that practical to get everyone out of New Orleans -
First, moving very sick people from nursing homes and hospitals tends to kill a fair percentage of them - it's not something you do when there is any chance the hurricane will not hit - and in fact, it didn't do a direct hit, and the hospitals and nursing homes were fine. It was that levee that was the problem.
Second, where to move them to? Everywhere was in the path of that hurricane. You can't just move everyone a hundred miles away because of a maybe - this wasn't the first maybe to come along, it won't be the last. Yeah, they lost the gamble, but it's just not realistic to do that every time a natural disaster threatens. And anywhere closer might have also been hit by the hurricane - where is there hurricane safe shelter for 100,000 people that includes hospital and nursing home care for a fair percentage of those? It sure had better not be some dumb tent city like they often use - that'd kill even more people if the hurricane hit it instead of, or in addition to the city.

[DEPUTYDAWG]

I can see some people being unable to evacuate - but not 20% of the city.



I totally agree. My boss said yesterday, in their District Emergency Operations meeting, said, "How many times, over the years, have we heard people say, 'I'm ridin' this one out.'" Yep. Some, not all, had a choice.

[Olivia77]

I am just trying to make the point that the news media controls how we react to these situations with what they share with us.

I agree, I saw something last night about one person getting food for their family with the caption, " man obtains food and water for their family from the local store." Another person was doing the same with the caption "this man just looted and stole food from the store."

Troubling...

[Beyond Belief]

I can see some people being unable to evacuate - but not 20% of the city.

I can see not wanting to go to the city sponsored evacuation centers because they won't take pets (I can't say I'd go without my cats) - but I think then people do have to accept their own responsibility for that choice - I'd know I was risking my life for my cats. I wouldn't do it if I had kids - it really is a choice to risk your life for your pets, and I couldn't do that to anyone else.

I am sure that most of the gangs that stayed behind did so to loot the place, and I've got no sympathy for them.

Yes, for everyone who had a choice about evacuating (and I count evacuating to the Superdome - that was the safest place, and has been a safe, if uncomfortable and disgusting place - and free buses and lots of publicity were provided about the availability of that option (I heard about it before the hurricane, so this isn't just some spin the officials are putting on a lackluster attempt) - there's no excuse not to take it), I think they should recognize they have some responsibility for their current predicament. Doesn't mean we should react any differently to them in their need now; but it's a lesson for everyone when they decide they won't evacuate when they could.



As to not letting the Red Cross in - I think they've got a point there. People are still wanting to stay in the city - while expecting to be fed, cared for, and rescued when they get in trouble. They shouldn't starve people or anything, but setting up a tent city, food for anyone who walks up would just mean that a lot of people would remain in the city instead of accepting evacuation. It's a hard thing to accept that your home city, everything you have is gone, that you can't even try to recover for at least 1-2 months; but that's how it has to be.

Attempting to make New Orleans even remotely habitable again is an enourmous task - it'll be far too hard if they also have to deal with people calling for rescue or food or water or medical assistance while they're trying to fix everything.

Yeah, it's cold and callous, and it's the solution that will in the long term have the best results for everyone. I always remember that classic House line - I've been cursed with the ability to do the math.
That is really well said.

[Ntegrity]

Just one for instance comes to mind, that really upset me, showed one shot of being screaming for food and then a shot of a lady who had been given food and things, her comment was "yeah, we got food, something you heat yourself, we couldn't eat that stuff. we haven't had a hot meal all day.'
I saw that too and was disgusted by the woman's attitude. It's good enough for our soldiers, but not for her? Maybe she would've preferred filet mignon. :rolleyes:

[Details]

I agree, I saw something last night about one person getting food for their family with the caption, " man obtains food and water for their family from the local store." Another person was doing the same with the caption "this man just looted and stole food from the store."

Troubling...Yep, everyone agrees that getting food and water you need is not looting. Nor is getting a change of clothes, a pair of shoes, a blanket.

Looting is taking things you don't require to survive, jewelry, TVs, more food than you need to eat to sell to other survivors, etc.

But that lady complaining about the MRE's obviously doesn't need the help that much, if she's willing to be complaining about the quality of the food. Our troops eat them, they aren't that bad. If you don't want it, there are lots of other people who do.

[Mabel]

I saw that too and was disgusted by the woman's attitude. It's good enough for our soldiers, but not for her? Maybe she would've preferred filet mignon. :rolleyes:

Some of the meals need to be cooked to be edible. Soilders carry a little sterno can with them that they cook over. I don't know if that's the case with this woman. She couldn't have been too hungry if the meal was edible and she simply didn't care for it.

[Details]

I was thinking about the subject of judgementalism - such as saying that people who chose to ride out the hurricane when they didn't have to are part of the problem - it seems to me that there's a very good reason people say and think these kinds of things. It provides a societal and an internal push to do the right thing when it comes to your own choice.

Imagine that right now a hurricane is heading towards you and there's a mandatory evacuation order; and you really don't want to obey it - you figure you can ride it out, you don't want the looters to get the stuff in your house, you just hate the idea of abandoning everything to evacuate. I'd say in my case, one thing that would provide a balancing push to do the right thing and leave is remembering how I felt towards those in other disasters who chose not to leave, and made the rescuers risk their lives to help them, and remembering how society in general will think I'm an idiot for not leaving when I have the choice.

I think that's the positive and useful side of judgementalism - and I don't think there's a thing wrong with making judgements about what is right or wrong.

[TexMex]

I'm experienced in earthquakes and wildfires, but hurricanes/tornadoes, nope. So, lemme know when it's time to get the heck outta Dodge, okay?! I will NOT be one to stay behind!

You are safe from hurricanes in central TX Dawg.
Now tornados....a lady at out church lost her sister and her family (husband, twin high school boys) in the Jarrell tornado in 1997--F5 tornado that killed over 30. They lived in the Double Creek Estates subdivision
which was totally destroyed by the F5 which was a mile wide with winds over 200mph. All you could see of the homes were the foundations of some of them.


Here's one account:


The tornado first touched down in Bell County, about a mile west of I-35. It then tracked south-southwest into Williamson County, Texas, where it grazed the northwestern portion of Jarrell, striking Double Creek Estates. ... Williamson County is a county located in the state of Texas. ...

Later analysis of the damage indicated the tornado was a definite F5. It is believed that in the field where the tornado developed, it ripped the corn husks out of the ground by the millions and then impaled the cows in the next field. The tornado lifted the cows and dropped them on the ground multiple times, breaking their legs.

The grass and dirt was ripped up out of the ground to a depth of 18 in (50 cm). When the tornado crossed county roads outside Jarrell, it ripped 500 feet (150m) of asphalt off the roads. After passing through Double Creek Estates, the tornado headed toward a heavily wooded area where the damage abruptly stopped.


Where's my roof?

At one of the early houses struck, the tornado ripped off the roof of a monolithic concrete shelter (approximately 6 inches thick, weighing well over a ton). The shelter's owner looked for his missing roof for a week without success. Apparently it caught into the wind, ripped off the top of the shelter, and flew off like a Frisbee, never to be seen again. The tornado was only at F2 strength at the time.

The first Williamson County Sheriffs Deputy to arrive on the scene was not familiar with that particular area. He saw the path of the tornado by the damaged earth it left behind, but he did not immediately see any typical damaged homes or debris. He called out on the radio that the tornado had not seemed to have produced any damage. He was not aware that the blank land that he was looking at had 10 minutes earlier been the Double Creek neighborhood, it was wiped clean. Houses were vaporized, concrete slabs were pulverized, and sewer & water pipes were sucked up out of the ground.



--------Mother Nature sure can be a 'mother' :(

[DEPUTYDAWG]

I was thinking about the subject of judgementalism - such as saying that people who chose to ride out the hurricane when they didn't have to are part of the problem - it seems to me that there's a very good reason people say and think these kinds of things. It provides a societal and an internal push to do the right thing when it comes to your own choice.

Imagine that right now a hurricane is heading towards you and there's a mandatory evacuation order; and you really don't want to obey it - you figure you can ride it out, you don't want the looters to get the stuff in your house, you just hate the idea of abandoning everything to evacuate. I'd say in my case, one thing that would provide a balancing push to do the right thing and leave is remembering how I felt towards those in other disasters who chose not to leave, and made the rescuers risk their lives to help them, and remembering how society in general will think I'm an idiot for not leaving when I have the choice.

I think that's the positive and useful side of judgementalism - and I don't think there's a thing wrong with making judgements about what is right or wrong.

We all make judgments in our daily lives, oftentimes having to weigh the risks and the benefits of any decision we make, even as far as choosing who are friends are.... Yes, using our judgment can be a very good thing! And, as you were saying, learning from past judgments made by others. Hopefully, we DO learn from others. I agree with your post, in case I've babbled on too long, LOL.

[Dara]

President Bush will go down as the biggest "whipping boy" in history, IMO. Is there anything left that we can blame on him? :rolleyes:
Is there anything you would blame on him?