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Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 03:43 PM
Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans in the face of Category-5 Katrina which was expected to make a direct strike on the city early Monday.

Nagin said that the predicted tidal surges and heavy rains could mean widespread flooding and power outages that could last for some time.

The order extends to everyone in the city of New Orleans with the following exceptions: Essential military and law enforcement personnel from the city and state, regulated utilities employees, essential members of the media, hospital employees and their patients, medical personnel, Criminal Sheriff's personnel and inmates and hotels and their patrons.

Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.

Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705nagin.b7724856.html

Details
09-05-2005, 03:55 PM
The people with no car, and even no access to gas money (there were stories about people trying to bargain to get 20-40 dollars for gas money) - they probably don't have a lot of packaged food and water they can bring along to the Superdome - the only shelter within reach, whatever the mayor may have categorized it as.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 03:58 PM
New Orleans has a lot of poor residents. Many people either couldn't afford or were too ill to escape. An estimated 35,000 were being sheltered at the Superdome, a giant, 70,000-seat stadium in the city. There are nine other shelters of last resort in the city.

People were told to bring enough food, water and medicine to last five days.

Source (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050828_hurricane_florida_050827/?hub=TopStories)

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 04:01 PM
Nagin said the city's shelters should be used as a last resort and said that people who use them should bring enough food, water and supplies to last for several days. He said that the Superdome, the city's main shelter, "is not going to be a very comfortable place at some point in time."

"The shelters will end up probably without electricity or with minimum electricity from generators in the end," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said. "There may be intense flooding that will be not in our control which would be ultimately the most dangerous situation that many of our people could face."

Source (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/katrina.neworleans/)

Details
09-05-2005, 04:06 PM
People can be told to fly too.

What I'm getting from this is that the mayor and governor knew the Superdome would need supplies after the first day.

Homeless people don't have any supplies, poor people don't have a nice easy to carry stock of bottled water at home - nor, at the end of the month right before payday, any money to go get it.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 04:06 PM
For a family of 5, how much water would be required to survive 5 days in 100-120 degree temperatures? Im trying to figure out how anyone could carry that much water when they have no car.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 04:07 PM
In the days leading up to Hurricane Katrina, Mayor Ray Nagin did not use hundreds of buses that were sitting in bus yards, some less than a mile from the Superdome, to evacuate citizens who were too poor to make their way out of the city. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco commented, "The buses could have saved an estimated 20,000 people if they had been used for emergency evacuations which President Bush had declared two days before Katrina hit." Thursday, after the storm, Blanco by executive order used school buses for evacuation.

The 2000 edition of the southeast Louisiana evacuation plan on page 13, paragraph 5 states:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

Source (http://www.juiceenewsdaily.com/0605/sports/buses.html?1125879106453)

Details
09-05-2005, 04:08 PM
Whichever buses were used and not - I know they had buses going out to all the poor neighborhoods and all over - heard about it before the hurricane. And heard about the people who refused to get on the bus. The buses were there. I've heard that there were some people who waited and it didn't come, but for most people they were there, and they were very well advertised - I heard about them out here.

Mabel
09-05-2005, 04:10 PM
The people with no car, and even no access to gas money (there were stories about people trying to bargain to get 20-40 dollars for gas money) - they probably don't have a lot of packaged food and water they can bring along to the Superdome - the only shelter within reach, whatever the mayor may have categorized it as.

My understanding is that many of these people were totally without funds and were waiting for their government checks to come in the mail on the first of the month. People in such dire financial straits don't have 5 days worth of food on hand.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 04:13 PM
The important thing was that they were told to bring water, food, medicine. I don't believe for a second they weren't capable of carrying enough water to survive until the cavalry arrived. Some of you want to throw personal responsibility out the window and blame the government for everything. I think that's bullchit.

Details
09-05-2005, 04:13 PM
I wonder if that message is part of why so many refused transport - I was thinking about how I would get 3-5 days of water - I don't have anything I could carry it in here (and I'm not poor) - but if I stayed at home, I could fill up pans and dishes with water and have 3-5 days of water at home. If I was given that message - I could see deciding that Superdome with no water vs. Home with water - Home might be the choice that I'd decide, in a purely rational analysis, would give me my best chance at survival.

Details
09-05-2005, 04:18 PM
The important thing was that they were told to bring water, food, medicine. I don't believe for a second they weren't capable of carrying enough water to survive until the cavalry arrived. Some of you want to throw personal responsibility out the window and blame the government for everything. I think that's bullchit.How do they carry the water? What is it in? No bottled water - water comes out of the faucet. Not much in the line of food or groceries period - you do your grocery run after the check arrives.

Personal responsibility is fine - but you have to allow for what people have and don't. Asking for the impossible, then claiming a lack of personal responsibility when they don't do it is BS, and it seems that's what the government here is doing. Everyone should have evacuated... without cars, without anywhere to go. Or you can go to the Superdome - if you can bring enough to live on for several days - when you don't even have that at home (if you have a home - what is your scenario for how the homeless were supposed to handle this?).

Sure, it's best to keep a savings account - but some don't have enough money for that (welfare does what it should - only gives you enough money to survive - not extra for a savings account), some have one that has been destroyed by recent expenses, and some spend all their extra - and while that's irresponsible, it's not a reason to be condemned to death.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 04:24 PM
The important thing was that they were told to bring water, food, medicine. I don't believe for a second they weren't capable of carrying enough water to survive until the cavalry arrived. Some of you want to throw personal responsibility out the window and blame the government for everything. I think that's bullchit.


This disaster was above and beyond the norm. The Government making sure food, water and medical supplies were provided for the thousands of men , women and children that were locked in the Superdome for a week should have been at the forfront of concern. Trucking in food and water supplies to the pockets of people whilst evacuation plans were put in place is the human thing to do. It is sustaining human life. It would have been the first step to insuring order.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 04:28 PM
Nobody was going to starve to death within a few days. Dehydration was the biggest risk. I don't know about everyone else, but I've got plenty of containers that can be filled with water around my house. I bet even the poorest of the poor do too. To say people aren't responsible for taking care of their most basic needs for survival is just beyond my comprehension.

Mabel
09-05-2005, 04:30 PM
This disaster was above and beyond the norm. The Government making sure food, water and medical supplies were provided for the thousands of men , women and children that were locked in the Superdome for a week should have been at the forfront of concern. Trucking in food and water supplies to the pockets of people whilst evacuation plans were put in place is the human thing to do. It is sustaining human life. It would have been the first step to insuring order.

So many private corporations immediately loaded up supplies and trucked them to New Orleans only to be turned away. There's no excuse for the government, who is supposed to be prepared for an emergency such as this, taking 4 or 5 days to do what private citizens did in one. Many people died. Much of the blood is on the hands of our government.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 04:30 PM
Not much in the line of food or groceries period - you do your grocery run after the check arrives.
Do you honestly believe those people had NOTHING to eat in their homes? Nonsense. If that had been the case, I guess they would've starved to death while waiting for their check even if the storm hadn't hit.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 04:42 PM
What is Newsmax?

Details
09-05-2005, 04:49 PM
Nobody was going to starve to death within a few days. Dehydration was the biggest risk. I don't know about everyone else, but I've got plenty of containers that can be filled with water around my house. I bet even the poorest of the poor do too. To say people aren't responsible for taking care of their most basic needs for survival is just beyond my comprehension.I can't think of any that I have - some tupperware - but that'd crack open if filled with water and put in a bag - but nothing else with a real top that would hold the water through being carried around (and 3 days of water is a lot - that's pretty heavy - especially if you are carrying it for a few kids - what do you have at your house that can hold this kind of water?)

And you still aren't adressing the homeless.

Amraann
09-05-2005, 04:49 PM
The important thing was that they were told to bring water, food, medicine. I don't believe for a second they weren't capable of carrying enough water to survive until the cavalry arrived. Some of you want to throw personal responsibility out the window and blame the government for everything. I think that's bullchit.

I think you make a good point Ntegrity..

BUT the reality is there are people who are maybe disabled and must live off of 600$ per month.
We as a society have placed the financial burden on the government so I don't think its a far stretch to expect the same when tragedy occured.

We have created a society where people live on welfare (not everyone)

And honestly even those that do not live off of federal aide could still be in dire situations.
You have to make a hell of a lot more then the average HS graduate in order to feed a family of 4.

Details
09-05-2005, 04:51 PM
Do you honestly believe those people had NOTHING to eat in their homes? Nonsense. If that had been the case, I guess they would've starved to death while waiting for their check even if the storm hadn't hit.Nope - although I had a roomate who often enough only had a bag of potatoes to get her through the last few days until her paycheck came sometimes. What I do think is that they may not have tended to have food in their homes (fast food is sometimes cheaper, and doesn't require a refrigerator), and probably didn't have 3 days worth of food in their home (doubly so, not 3 days of food that didn't require refrigeration).

Not that the food matters - you don't starve to death in a few days or week.

Details
09-05-2005, 04:52 PM
What is Newsmax?An extremely biased and unreliable news site. Doesn't mean it can't be right, but with them you always have to read elsewhere to get the full story.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 04:55 PM
I read it. Lets keep to mainstream /legitimate News Sources. For partisan politics we have a Political Forum Available. Keep the left or right wing extremes there please.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 05:00 PM
I can't think of any that I have - some tupperware - but that'd crack open if filled with water and put in a bag - but nothing else with a real top that would hold the water through being carried around (and 3 days of water is a lot - that's pretty heavy - especially if you are carrying it for a few kids - what do you have at your house that can hold this kind of water?)

And you still aren't adressing the homeless.
I've got tupperware (which hasn't cracked open yet!), old plastic 2-liter coke bottles, plastic pitchers ($1 at Dollar General). The notion that these "poor" people don't have those things is ridiculous. Even homeless people can pick through the garbage and find an old coke bottle. It doesn't take that much water just to survive.

As a Florida resident, I've been through hurricanes my entire life. Even when I was a "poor" young married woman with small children, I was capable of putting together a survival package before heading to a shelter.

I'm not saying this absolves the government (city, state, federal) of responsibility, but I am saying that people need to take some responsibility for themselves.

fran
09-05-2005, 05:00 PM
I read it. Lets keep to mainstream /legitimate News Sources. For partisan politics we have a Political Forum Available. Keep the left or right wing extremes there please.

Ok, I deleted it.

fran

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 05:03 PM
Why delete NewsMax, yet say it's okay to quote the NY Times which is notoriously liberal in all their stories.

kgeaux
09-05-2005, 05:04 PM
I've got tupperware (which hasn't cracked open yet!), old plastic 2-liter coke bottles, plastic pitchers ($1 at Dollar General). The notion that these "poor" people don't have those things is ridiculous. Even homeless people can pick through the garbage and find an old coke bottle. It doesn't take that much water just to survive.

As a Florida resident, I've been through hurricanes my entire life. Even when I was a "poor" young married woman with small children, I was capable of putting together a survival package before heading to a shelter.

I'm not saying this absolves the government (city, state, federal) of responsibility, but I am saying that people need to take some responsibility for themselves.


Especially if you like in a disaster prone area, you need to be sure you've got survival supplies at hand. I feel very sorry for these people, and I understand that poverty makes it much harder to provide for themselves, but there has to be some level of responsibility for one's self and family. No one can expect the government to have total responsibility for them.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 05:13 PM
Why delete NewsMax, yet say it's okay to quote the NY Times which is notoriously liberal in all their stories.

Ntegrity

I have come across many blogs and left and right wing "News" sites in the last few days covering the Politics of this Disaster with a vengence and passed on them. This isnt a Liberal/Conservative debate. Lets try to avoid turning it into one.

tybee204
09-05-2005, 05:19 PM
In the days leading up to Hurricane Katrina, Mayor Ray Nagin did not use hundreds of buses that were sitting in bus yards, some less than a mile from the Superdome, to evacuate citizens who were too poor to make their way out of the city. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco commented, "The buses could have saved an estimated 20,000 people if they had been used for emergency evacuations which President Bush had declared two days before Katrina hit." Thursday, after the storm, Blanco by executive order used school buses for evacuation.

The 2000 edition of the southeast Louisiana evacuation plan on page 13, paragraph 5 states:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

Source (http://www.juiceenewsdaily.com/0605/sports/buses.html?1125879106453)


I saw on one of the News stations that the photo of the flooded bus's are not in New Orleans or the Mayors district. The photo is from one of the other Parish Districts.

Details
09-05-2005, 05:20 PM
I've got tupperware (which hasn't cracked open yet!), old plastic 2-liter coke bottles, plastic pitchers ($1 at Dollar General). The notion that these "poor" people don't have those things is ridiculous. Even homeless people can pick through the garbage and find an old coke bottle. It doesn't take that much water just to survive.

As a Florida resident, I've been through hurricanes my entire life. Even when I was a "poor" young married woman with small children, I was capable of putting together a survival package before heading to a shelter.

I'm not saying this absolves the government (city, state, federal) of responsibility, but I am saying that people need to take some responsibility for themselves.What type of tupperware is that? Mine is pretty good, but I wouldn't trust it to hold my drinking water if it shifted sideways and had a little pressure put on - the lid would probably pop off. No old coke bottles, no pitcher (which wouldn't matter, since they don't have watertight lids.

However - tupperware costs money - I wouldn't count on a poor family having that. Coke bottles are a good choice - but maybe one is there, and may be it isn't. If you are living hand to mouth, soda is a luxury. And it does take a fair amount of water, in terms of weight, per person, per day in that 120 degree weather. Of course, they have to find and assemble this while getting ready to hop on those free buses whenever they are coming by, and getting all of their other essentials (medicine, children) together.

I'm all for responsibility - but I also think you have to look at individual situations, panic, all the human vagaries that reasonable and intelligent people even have. Being unable to think of where to find old coke bottles in a rush to evacuate before your home is destroyed to me seems a very minor and understandable failing. Looters, people who could leave and chose to stay - they've made real errors in life and judgement. A single mom gathering kids and supplies and trying to find out when the buses get there - this doesn't seem like a real failing of personal responsibility.

marrigotti
09-05-2005, 05:26 PM
Especially if you like in a disaster prone area, you need to be sure you've got survival supplies at hand. I feel very sorry for these people, and I understand that poverty makes it much harder to provide for themselves, but there has to be some level of responsibility for one's self and family. No one can expect the government to have total responsibility for them.

I have to agree with this statement. I don't think that all of these people were so totally helpless that they couldn't even prepare by assembling some bottles of water. I am certainly sorry about the outcome, but I believe much of it could have been prevented by people assuming more responsibility at an individual, local and state level.

JBean
09-05-2005, 05:32 PM
I have to agree with this statement. I don't think that all of these people were so totally helpless that they couldn't even prepare by assembling some bottles of water. I am certainly sorry about the outcome, but I believe much of it could have been prevented by people assuming more responsibility at an individual, local and state level.
Well you know I agree with this.
I have restocked my supplies today, so that I have time to wait for the local authorities to do what they can as fast as they can. But I must rely on myself first and foremost to make sure I can sustain while waiting for the big guns.

Dara
09-05-2005, 05:32 PM
Coke bottles are a good choice - but maybe one is there, and may be it isn't. If you are living hand to mouth, soda is a luxury.
If LA is like Massachusetts and many other states (I Googled and found some references to suggest it is, but nothing definitive) it has bottle deposit. It might be prudent to keep the bottles for such emergencies, but if you're trying to buy food and don't have the money, you might just take the fifty cents or so to buy a box of spaghetti.

I am glad we're getting the information contained in this thread (though I do look askance at sites called JuiceeNews) I want to know if the SuperDome should have been used and about Mayor Nagin's actions. But as far as saying people should have had supplies, as if that exempts the government from doing ALL THAT THEY COULD, which they clearly didn't, I have to ask a couple of questions.

Does an edict for people to bring supplies for X days exempt the government from providing any supplies until those days are over?

What personal responsibility do the rape victims bear? Should they have hit the nearest BDSM shop and stocked up on chastity belts? When we knew rapes were happening and help still didn't come for days, who is responsible?

How about those who were killed? If they were killed for the food they brought, maybe that's their fault, too?

And last, if a similar disaster struck with no warning, is it ok to help people then?

The response was far below what was possible in this situation. Not the ideal response, but the best possible response. How can we not question that and be troubled by it?

concernedperson
09-05-2005, 05:32 PM
There are still people who won't evacuate. The reporter describes it as a kind of numbness. They are expecting the reality will set in and if it doesn't they will be forced to leave.

This is all so sad anyway we look at it. Were there failings.....absolutely 100%....will blame fall.....absolutely 100%....is now the time.......NO. Get the help needed and protect the refugees and get them kick started...protect the rescuers and anyone who is involved in this toxic waste. Serious, serious health situations are going to effect a lot of people. The faster work is done the lessening of the consequences.

Gen. Honore with his no BS is a very good choice. Don't know who made him in command but kudos to them. He isn't a politician which is a very good thing right now. The politicians have so many ruffled feathers it would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Ntegrity
09-05-2005, 05:50 PM
Does an edict for people to bring supplies for X days exempt the government from providing any supplies until those days are over?
It does in my opinion. They were told there would be no provisions. Pretty simple and straightforward to me.


What personal responsibility do the rape victims bear? Should they have hit the nearest BDSM shop and stocked up on chastity belts? When we knew rapes were happening and help still didn't come for days, who is responsible?

How about those who were killed? If they were killed for the food they brought, maybe that's their fault, too?
These comments are exactly what I would've expected from you. :rolleyes: Since we haven't been able to stop rapes and murders from occurring every single day, even in the absence of a catastrophic disaster, I'm not sure why the aftermath of Katrina should be any different.

Dara
09-05-2005, 05:59 PM
It does in my opinion. They were told there would be no provisions. Pretty simple and straightforward to me. I'm glad I asked.



These comments are exactly what I would've expected from you. :rolleyes: We've already been asked by a moderator to avoid posts like that. As I did above.


Since we haven't been able to stop rapes and murders from occurring every single day, even in the absence of a catastrophic disaster, I'm not sure why the aftermath of Katrina should be any different. Interesting.