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Pepper
09-11-2005, 05:34 PM
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

Here it is. Was it followed?

Tom'sGirl
09-11-2005, 05:53 PM
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

Here it is. Was it followed?
Quite obvisously it wasn't, as the 2004 evacuee plan failed miserably and wasn't followed even then.

Pepper
09-11-2005, 06:00 PM
Quite obvisously it wasn't, as the 2004 evacuee plan failed miserably and wasn't followed even then.

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

I don't recall any of these shelters even being mentioned.

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 06:02 PM
Wow. You guys are fast. I'm still wading through the thing. The first few pages were just blank lines.

cynder
09-11-2005, 07:04 PM
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

I don't recall any of these shelters even being mentioned.
These were not "Shelters Of Last Resort" Or "Supershelters" as noted in the report. I have seen other shelters named BUT I believe some of them may have flooded or been evacuated to OTHER shelters when the levees failed. It appears that most people either went to the Superdome OR to the Convention Center - which was NOT a shelter. Think people thought that ANY big public building would accomodate them?
Many people did not go (and had no intention of going) to ANY shelter. Nor did they attempt to evacuate. Despite all the information distributed I have a feeling many of them did not even know WHERE they should go and they were not prepared for the failure of the levees. I'm not sure HOW you plan effectively for a segement of the populace who by choice defies a mandated evacuation. A great percentage of these people did not leave because they didn't WANT TO - when rescued they didn't say I COULDN'T EVACUATE, they said I chose not to evacuate.
What's a city to do? We already know the Gov't cannot force people to evacuate if the do not want to.

kgeaux
09-11-2005, 07:34 PM
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

Here it is. Was it followed?


The governor is to authorize the opening of shelters in non-emergency parishes. This was not done. Not for nearly an entire week after the hurricane, and then when they were opened, it was at the directive of the Red Cross.

I think the lack of shelters away from the New Orleans area kept many people at home. Those who do not have credit cards or large amounts of cash cannot afford to stay in a hotel for days on end. Some evacuees had friends and families to take them in, but even today I was standing in line at Walmart with a lady from Metarie who is STILL in a hotel. Her credit cards are about to max out and she is waiting to receive money from FEMA or the Red Cross.

No credit cards plus no free shelters equaled my family and I must stay home.

dang, I had to edit about a hundred times. Sorry about spelling, grammar, etc.

concernedperson
09-11-2005, 07:45 PM
The governor is to authorize the opening of shelters in non-emergency parishes. This was not done. Not for nearly an entire week after the hurricane, and then when they were opened, it was at the directive of the Red Cross.

I think the lack of shelters away from the New Orleans area kept many people at home. Those who do not have credit cards or large amounts of cash cannot afford to stay in a hotel for days on end. Some evacuees had friends and families to take them in, but even today I was standing in line at Walmart with a lady from Metarie who is STILL in a hotel. Her credit cards are about to max out and she is waiting to receive money from FEMA or the Red Cross.

No credit cards plus no free shelters equaled my family and I must stay home.

dang, I had to edit about a hundred times. Sorry about spelling, grammar, etc.

No you are not alone. These apologists don't recognize what it means to scrape by.The average income in the US doesn't apply to everyone only the top 20% can be above any repercussion.The rest of people don't rely on the government but are classified as the working poor. Oh, boohoo, then they should die. NOT!I am not suggesting a socialist republic but why can't we have national health care like the Canadiens?

kgeaux
09-11-2005, 07:48 PM
Other things that weren't done or didn't follow the plan:

The plan calls for staging areas to pick up people and move them to safety in host parishes. This was not done. Any people who were picked up were sent to shelters of last resort, like the Super Dome. I'm not sure why, except that I believe calling for a mandatory evacuation a mere 20 hours before expected landfall is cutting it a little close.

The school bus thing obviously went terribly wrong. I have *heard* but not seen in print, that the drivers evacuated, so busses were available, but no one there to drive and pick up the people.

kgeaux
09-11-2005, 07:52 PM
No you are not alone. These apologists don't recognize what it means to scrape by.The average income in the US doesn't apply to everyone only the top 20% can be above any repercussion.The rest of people don't rely on the government but are classified as the working poor. Oh, boohoo, then they should die. NOT!I am not suggesting a socialist republic but why can't we have national health care like the Canadiens?

Oh,oh. I worded my post a little funny, even after all that editing. I must have skipped my coffee this morning! I was talking about poorer families that stayed behind in New Orleans because they lacked the means to pay for a hotel room--you wouldn't believe how many people at the Cajun Dome have given that as a reason! Some of these people had cars, but no where to go. It is really pitiful.

I just can't understand why we didn't open up shelters like the Cajun Dome ahead of the storm? Why wait until a week later?

concernedperson
09-11-2005, 08:01 PM
Other things that weren't done or didn't follow the plan:

The plan calls for staging areas to pick up people and move them to safety in host parishes. This was not done. Any people who were picked up were sent to shelters of last resort, like the Super Dome. I'm not sure why, except that I believe calling for a mandatory evacuation a mere 20 hours before expected landfall is cutting it a little close.

The school bus thing obviously went terribly wrong. I have *heard* but not seen in print, that the drivers evacuated, so busses were available, but no one there to drive and pick up the people.
Is it a cleansing of America?I am so questioning right now. I completely agree that there were no drivers no matter how many busses were available. I heard Nagin scream when there was no help. I heard his pain and I heard a lot of pain. I don't think he is the man to lead New Orleans to the future but I have to accept that he was acknowledging a lot of wrongs. Even if it was to call attention.And I personally think he was calling attention and has no intention of furthering his political future.He is done but he need what was right. FEMA boy is gone.

kgeaux
09-11-2005, 08:05 PM
Is it a cleansing of America?I am so questioning right now. I completely agree that there were no drivers no matter how many busses were available. I heard Nagin scream when there was no help. I heard his pain and I heard a lot of pain. I don't think he is the man to lead New Orleans to the future but I have to accept that he was acknowledging a lot of wrongs. Even if it was to call attention.And I personally think he was calling attention and has no intention of furthering his political future.He is done but he need what was right. FEMA boy is gone.

I have to wonder, concerned. The cleansing of the New Orleans projects? I really did not believe this had anything at all to do with race in the beginning, but I am wondering now. The things that weren't followed in the plan were the things that would have a direct impact upon the ability of the poorest among us to get out.

I haven't made up my mind if it was a deliberate decision or just ineptitude. But it had some pretty horrible reprecussions for these people, no matter what the cause.

I hope good will come out of this. I hope that getting this large poor population out into other cities where they see the residents caring about them and eager to help them will result in these people making something out of their lives. God knows that was impossible while they were in the projects.

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 08:06 PM
Having a car but nowhere to go means that people do not really understand the meaning of evacuating. If you have a car but nowhere to go, you need to go away from the area and find a safe place away from the area . There is evacuating, and then there is having a family evacuation plan. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm not blaming the people who didn't evacuate, I am wondering how the evacuation order was understood by them.

Not having a plan should not keep people from evacuating when their lives are in danger, I wonder how many of the people who had a car but nowhere to go really understood that their very lives were in danger?

kgeaux
09-11-2005, 08:16 PM
Having a car but nowhere to go means that people do not really understand the meaning of evacuating. If you have a car but nowhere to go, you need to go away from the area and find a safe place away from the area . There is evacuating, and then there is having a family evacuation plan. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm not blaming the people who didn't evacuate, I am wondering how the evacuation order was understood by them.

Not having a plan should not keep people from evacuating when their lives are in danger, I wonder how many of the people who had a car but nowhere to go really understood that their very lives were in danger?

A safe place may be difficult to find if you do not have the funds to pay for your stay. I am hearing evacuees at the Cajun Dome say they wanted to leave, but couldn't afford to pay for a hotel room. Our shelters should have been opened along with the evacuation order, IMO. That's what the LEOP seems to call for.

And you really hit the nail on the head with your last comment. There is a tendency here to remember the many storms that we've dodged, the ones we rode out and survived. I think most believed that this would just be another rough storm, then they'd pick up the pieces, clean things up and keep on living their lives. We won't see that attitude for a long, long time cuz this storm sure woke every body up to the very real danger of staying behind.

concernedperson
09-11-2005, 08:22 PM
Another thing,what if the government decides we aren't worthy? We don't contribute to the causes that they think are worthy? Like the sugar cane farmers and their heritance tax? Do you think that the Caffery's are above reproach? Do you think for one minute that your family doesn't deserve an equal chance? Do you think that your hard work is recognized? Lots of questions, and lots of unanswered responses. Can you tell I know a lot about Louisiana? I know the core and will respond even if I am called down. Do you need to know more?

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 08:26 PM
Let me clarify, by "a safe place", I meant a place away from the immediate crisis.

I do understand that many people do not have funds to stay in hotels, but to me, I would think it would be better to be sleeping in my car at a wal mart parking lot or some such... than living in sewage, amongst rapists, snipers, looters and other mayhem, or worse, dead.

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 08:37 PM
I think that a lot of people did not understand the severity of the situation. Is disaster preparedness taught in the public schools there? It should be.

If there is any bright spot to be found from that B!%$# Katrina, it's that (I hope) a lot more people in the USA are going to be more individually prepared.

concernedperson
09-11-2005, 08:39 PM
Let me clarify, by "a safe place", I meant a place away from the immediate crisis.

I do understand that many people do not have funds to stay in hotels, but to me, I would think it would be better to be sleeping in my car at a wal mart parking lot or some such... than living in sewage, amongst rapists, snipers, looters and other mayhem, or worse, dead.

Oh, good. You have a car. I assume it wasn't boosted?

Not trying to be a mean ***** from hell but the situation isn't what you would call hope.No choice....and I mean no choice if you live in Desire.Can you even conceive this level of poverty?

tybee204
09-11-2005, 08:40 PM
The reality is it would take at a minimum 72 hours of around the clock bus's trains etc to evacuate a region the size of the New Orleans area. The 24 hour Mandatory evacuation notice rendered it impossible to evacuate new Orleans.

less0305
09-11-2005, 08:49 PM
The reality is it would take at a minimum 72 hours of around the clock bus's trains etc to evacuate a region the size of the New Orleans area. The 24 hour Mandatory evacuation notice rendered it impossible to evacuate new Orleans.

That is absolutely the truth, Tybee. And in one of your links I believe I read that Amtrack even offered to take people out of the city, but city officials declined their offer. What was that all about?

tybee204
09-11-2005, 08:52 PM
I think the City Goverment was more concerned with liablility then culpability at the time.

The first link in the failure of the system.

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 08:53 PM
Oh, good. You have a car. I assume it wasn't boosted?

Not trying to be a mean ***** from hell but the situation isn't what you would call hope.No choice....and I mean no choice if you live in Desire.Can you even conceive this level of poverty?
Ummm, I was referring to kgeaux post which said that people had cars but nowhere to go. Having a car is a huge asset for evacuation, I don't really understand how having a car but noplace to go would preclude evacuation in a life or death emergency. And yes, I CAN conceive of the level of poverty you mention. I have been to third world countries where people live in shacks I wouldn't house a dog in. So if you're not trying to be a _____ _____ from ---- Please note the context of my post. I understand you're upset but please don't take it out on me. Thanks

concernedperson
09-11-2005, 09:00 PM
Ummm, I was referring to kgeaux post which said that people had cars but nowhere to go. Having a car is a huge asset for evacuation, I don't really understand how having a car but noplace to go would preclude evacuation in a life or death emergency. And yes, I CAN conceive of the level of poverty you mention. I have been to third world countries where people live in shacks I wouldn't house a dog in. So if you're not trying to be a _____ _____ from ---- Please note the context of my post. I understand you're upset but please don't take it out on me. Thanks

I am sorry. I am not that kind of person. I really am not. I just feel it personally. I should shut up because my pain isn't reality.

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 09:04 PM
Its OK CP. I understand. Most everyone is quite upset and trying to understand how this could happen, here in the USA where we are supposed to
be able to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps at a moment's notice, which I'm afraid isn't going to happen for a very many people this time:(

Pepper
09-11-2005, 09:15 PM
Other things that weren't done or didn't follow the plan:

The plan calls for staging areas to pick up people and move them to safety in host parishes. This was not done. Any people who were picked up were sent to shelters of last resort, like the Super Dome. I'm not sure why, except that I believe calling for a mandatory evacuation a mere 20 hours before expected landfall is cutting it a little close.

The school bus thing obviously went terribly wrong. I have *heard* but not seen in print, that the drivers evacuated, so busses were available, but no one there to drive and pick up the people. I heard Nagin say that today too, but gimme a break, how hard would it be to find drivers? Put the word out. Ask for volunteers. One guy "stole" a bus to transport some people out of there. He wasn't an employed bus driver. That is a pretty lame excuse IMHO. Besides, remember, Nagin et al had DAYS to work the plan before Monday morning.

Toby
09-11-2005, 09:24 PM
People tend to think their home will protect them from any and all circumstances. Until you have been through something which takes that comfortable feeling away, you may not understand the full power of nature.

Some of the evacuees surely suffered from this thought

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 09:33 PM
People tend to think their home will protect them from any and all circumstances. Until you have been through something which takes that comfortable feeling away, you may not understand the full power of nature.

Some of the evacuees surely suffered from this thought

Yes I see what you mean Toby. Thanks for sharing this point of view with me.

I posted on the other thread about being evacuated when the Teton Dam broke, which left an important impression on me at a young age, and so I have always had the understanding of nature's wrath since I was just a small child.

Tom'sGirl
09-11-2005, 09:41 PM
I heard Nagin say that today too, but gimme a break, how hard would it be to find drivers? Put the word out. Ask for volunteers. One guy "stole" a bus to transport some people out of there. He wasn't an employed bus driver. That is a pretty lame excuse IMHO. Besides, remember, Nagin et al had DAYS to work the plan before Monday morning.
SNIP re: Amtrack

MR. RUSSERT: Amtrak said they offered to remove people from the city of New Orleans on Saturday night and that the city of New Orleans declined.

MAYOR NAGIN: I don't know where that's coming from. Amtrak never contacted me to make that offer. As a matter of fact, we checked the Amtrak lines for availability, and every available train was booked, as far as the report that I got, through September. So I'd like to see that report.

MR. RUSSERT: They said they were moving equipment out of New Orleans in order to protect it and offered to take evacuees with them.

MAYOR NAGIN: I have never gotten that call, Tim, and I would love to have had that call. But it never happened.

Tom'sGirl
09-11-2005, 09:51 PM
The reality is it would take at a minimum 72 hours of around the clock bus's trains etc to evacuate a region the size of the New Orleans area. The 24 hour Mandatory evacuation notice rendered it impossible to evacuate new Orleans.
I had posted this to the wrong poster, I meant it in reply to tybee......sorry!

If anyone missed Meet the Press here are some Snips and the link to transcript:
SNIP re: Buses

MR. RUSSERT: Many people point, Mr. Mayor, that on Friday before the hurricane, President Bush declared an impending disaster. And The Houston Chronicle wrote it this way. "[Mayor Nagin's] mandatory evacuation order was issued 20 hours before the storm struck the Louisiana coast, less than half the time researchers determined would be needed to get everyone out. City officials had 550 municipal buses and hundreds of additional school buses at their disposal but made no plans to use them to get people out of New Orleans before the storm, said Chester Wilmot, a civil engineering professor at Louisiana State University and an expert in transportation planning, who helped the city put together its evacuation plan." And we've all see this photograph of these submerged school buses. Why did you not declare, order, a mandatory evacuation on Friday, when the president declared an emergency, and have utilized those buses to get people out?

MAYOR NAGIN: You know, Tim, that's one of the things that will be debated. There has never been a catastrophe in the history of New Orleans like this. There has never been any Category 5 storm of this magnitude that has hit New Orleans directly. We did the things that we thought were best based upon the information that we had. Sure, here was lots of buses out there. But guess what? You can't find drivers that would stay behind with a Category 5 hurricane, you know, pending down on New Orleans. We barely got enough drivers to move people on Sunday, or Saturday and Sunday, to move them to the Superdome. We barely had enough drivers for that. So sure, we had the assets, but the drivers just weren't available.

MR. RUSSERT: But, Mr. Mayor, if you read the city of New Orleans' comprehensive emergency plan-- and I've read it and I'll show it to you and our viewers--it says very clearly, "Conduct of an actual evacuation will be the responsibility of the mayor of New Orleans. The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life-saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedure as needed. Approximately 100,000 citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation."

It was your responsibility. Where was the planning? Where was the preparation? Where was the execution?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9240461/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9240461/)

Pepper
09-11-2005, 10:01 PM
Let me clarify, by "a safe place", I meant a place away from the immediate crisis.

I do understand that many people do not have funds to stay in hotels, but to me, I would think it would be better to be sleeping in my car at a wal mart parking lot or some such... than living in sewage, amongst rapists, snipers, looters and other mayhem, or worse, dead.
Hi Birdie,

That is my question too. I am wondering if anyone like the mayor or aldermen or PD went into those neighborhoods with bullhorns telling those people that they might die if they didn't get out of there?

Pepper
09-11-2005, 10:07 PM
The reality is it would take at a minimum 72 hours of around the clock bus's trains etc to evacuate a region the size of the New Orleans area. The 24 hour Mandatory evacuation notice rendered it impossible to evacuate new Orleans. Yes, but they had more than 72 hours notice that the story would be a Cat 4-5 and headed straight for N.O. So they had PLENTY of time to issue that Mandatory evacuation notice, (which the Hurricane Center asked Nagin to declare) which the mayor didn't issue until a mere 12 hrs. prior to landfall.

The CNN program that aired tonight spelled all that out. It was an abysmal failure on the part of state and local officials, to protect these people from the flooding. There is still plenty of blame for FEMA and nearly everyone else. But the fact remains is it was the mayor first and the governor section who had the duty and obligation to protect these people AHEAD of the storm hitting land. After the fact FEMA should have been more responsive.

kgeaux
09-11-2005, 10:10 PM
Hi Birdie,

That is my question too. I am wondering if anyone like the mayor or aldermen or PD went into those neighborhoods with bullhorns telling those people that they might die if they didn't get out of there?

Busses were sent to staging points--like a centralized location--to pick people up and take them to the shelter of last resort, the Super Dome. This was done after the mandatory evacuation was declared, 20 or so hours before the storm hit. The plan also states that all this stops before the gale force winds hit, so I'm not sure how many hours of this type of evacuation went on.

The state emergency operations plan calls for earlier busses to pick people up and take them to shelters in non emergency parishes. I read this to mean that shelters in parishes like Lafayette Parish should have been opened prior to the storm, and busses should have been picking people up and bringing them to these shelters. As the storm continues to get closer, driving becomes more hazardous, and so these long trips would cease, then the busses would bring people to emergency shelters in the affected parishes.

No shelters in non emergency parishes were opened prior to the storm, no busses took anyone out of town to these closed shelters prior to the storm.

Something went wrong. Terribly wrong.

Pepper
09-11-2005, 10:38 PM
Ummm, I was referring to kgeaux post which said that people had cars but nowhere to go. Having a car is a huge asset for evacuation, I don't really understand how having a car but noplace to go would preclude evacuation in a life or death emergency. And yes, I CAN conceive of the level of poverty you mention. I have been to third world countries where people live in shacks I wouldn't house a dog in. So if you're not trying to be a _____ _____ from ---- Please note the context of my post. I understand you're upset but please don't take it out on me. Thanks

I certainly understand that there wre many people who didn't own cars. But I saw hundreds of submerged cars and other vehicles on the streets of NO in every neighborhood. Now maybe they were out of gas or broken and didn't run.........can't say about that.

BirdieBoo
09-11-2005, 11:32 PM
Well, if they are anything like me & my hubby, we have 3 cars and 2 people to drive them. And we might only take one car in an evacuation, because we would not want to be separated. So that would leave 2 of ours on the street.

tybee204
09-11-2005, 11:36 PM
We have 3 cars and take one. It is to hard to get gas to fill more then one vehicle during evacuation.

less0305
09-12-2005, 07:56 AM
Not only did the Mayor of N.O. not use his evacuation plan to get people to other shelters in LA, but the Governor did not use her resources and Governor's Contact to accept help and resources from other Governor's in the region. Florida was ready willing and able - and had the experience - but were rebuffed at the state level - BEFORE the hurricane.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-12-2005, 08:40 AM
I heard Nagin say that today too, but gimme a break, how hard would it be to find drivers? Put the word out. Ask for volunteers. One guy "stole" a bus to transport some people out of there. He wasn't an employed bus driver. That is a pretty lame excuse IMHO. Besides, remember, Nagin et al had DAYS to work the plan before Monday morning.

Excellent point, Pepper. If they had followed their own "plan," the buses would have been put into action prior to just 24 hours. :banghead: But alas, they did not follow their own plan.

DEPUTYDAWG
09-12-2005, 08:51 AM
Busses were sent to staging points--like a centralized location--to pick people up and take them to the shelter of last resort, the Super Dome. This was done after the mandatory evacuation was declared, 20 or so hours before the storm hit. The plan also states that all this stops before the gale force winds hit, so I'm not sure how many hours of this type of evacuation went on.

The state emergency operations plan calls for earlier busses to pick people up and take them to shelters in non emergency parishes. I read this to mean that shelters in parishes like Lafayette Parish should have been opened prior to the storm, and busses should have been picking people up and bringing them to these shelters. As the storm continues to get closer, driving becomes more hazardous, and so these long trips would cease, then the busses would bring people to emergency shelters in the affected parishes.

No shelters in non emergency parishes were opened prior to the storm, no busses took anyone out of town to these closed shelters prior to the storm.

Something went wrong. Terribly wrong.

I read the plan, as well, regarding High Risk Parishes, and "Host Parishes," which is where the shelters SHOULD HAVE been opened. What a tragedy that the communications from the High Risk Parish to the outside "host parishes" just didn't take place as it should have. Unbelievable.

And, it appears something went terribly wrong with the "plan" and the responsibilities for the evacuations for the nursing homes, group homes, and I guess hospitals. Earlier than 24 hrs, they each had a "plan" on file; so why didn't they follow their own plans to get their patients, who are dependent upon them (the facilities) out of there? This scares the he** out of me - families had entrusted the staffs to take care of their loved ones - and yet so many facilities gambled, and lost. (Maybe even most followed their plans, and we only heard of the few that gambled, and lost.)

IMO

SewingDeb
09-12-2005, 10:58 AM
Having a car but nowhere to go means that people do not really understand the meaning of evacuating. If you have a car but nowhere to go, you need to go away from the area and find a safe place away from the area . There is evacuating, and then there is having a family evacuation plan. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm not blaming the people who didn't evacuate, I am wondering how the evacuation order was understood by them.

Not having a plan should not keep people from evacuating when their lives are in danger, I wonder how many of the people who had a car but nowhere to go really understood that their very lives were in danger?

Exactly. A car is a place to go. Drive it as far away as possible and stay in it while seeking help.