The word "hurt" in media reports

[hoppyfrog]

I know many posters have questioned why RA would tell LE that his wife was "hurt." It seems like an odd choice of words given the situation. I realized the other day when I was rereading threads and initial media coverage of Janet's murder that, that it was a reporter who used the word "hurt," not RA.There is no direct quote from RA using the word "hurt." It was a word the reporter chose to use. Here is the article:

Search Warrant Reveals Details In Stabbing Of Durham Woman, May 3, 2005:
http://www.wral.com/news/4443707/detail.html

Note that in another article, a different reporter uses the word "injured."

Woman's Body Found in Home, April 28, 2005:
http://newsobserver.com/news/story/...p-8731092c.html


Point being that even a single word can "spin" a story in one direction or another, causing lots of confusion and speculation.

Hoppy

[ewwwinteresting]

Hoppy,

The one article is talking about what raven stated to LE at the scene "hurt" and the other article is talking about what the 911 caller stated "injured"....(supposedly from a gunshot??)

It was also stated on Greta (Fox News) that raven told arriving LE that his wife was upstairs hurt.

I agree, one word can spin a story but this particular choice of word seems relevant IF raven claimed he tried to give his wife CPR but she was already dead or didn't try to give his wife CPR because she was already dead. Either way, you wouldn't say your wife was upstairs hurt.

Now, if raven wants to state he didn't tell LE that she was hurt, he stated something else, by all means, he can and should. But he has not publically made it known that he was misquoted and neither him nor any of his supporters have made any real noise about him being innocent.

[golfmom]

"Officer Williams advised this investigator that when he arrived at the scene, he spoke with a
Mr. Raven Abaroa, who advised that
his wife was upstairs, and that she was hurt."

Quote is direct from the application for search warrant. In this case, the reporter did not make up the language, but used what LE had provided to the judge to secure a search warrant.

In my opinion this sounds like a detail that Raven would give out to support the propaganda he spins to those around him. 1. The police are wrong; 2. the ME report is incorrect; 3. The media got it wrong; 4. WS lies. (we all have no lives and make things up ... blah, blah, blah)

But don't forget, he's a convicted FELON (not misdemeanor) and just because he says it doesn't make it so. I mean we know for a fact that Janet didn't commit suicide.

[terminatrixator]

Raven, Can you here us now? Oh that's right, you can't...

Maybe you can peddle your way backwards far enough to remember the truth.

I myself didn't realize being a convicted Felon causes short-term memory loss.

[golfmom]

I agree, one word can spin a story but this particular choice of word seems relevant IF raven claimed he tried to give his wife CPR but she was already dead or didn't try to give his wife CPR because she was already dead. Either way, you wouldn't say your wife was upstairs hurt.



EI, interesting observation, the statement that he thought Janet was hurt, destroys his ability to say that he knew she was dead when he arrived home. Wee-bit of a catch-22 here when you're spinning to mitigate the damage of TOD.

So which was it ... did he bravely try to save his dying wife and desire to give her a priest's blessing? or did he realize he couldn't save her and called 9-1-1? Using the word *hurt* hurts Raven's story now and he needs to distance himself from it ... fast.

[JerseyGirl]

"Officer Williams advised this investigator that when he arrived at the scene, he spoke with a





Mr. Raven Abaroa, who advised that






his wife was upstairs, and that she was hurt."I was just about to post this when I saw that you had already done so. Again - so there are no misunderstandings - the application for the search warrant contains a statement from the investigator on the scene, and he states that the first officer on the scene relayed to him that he was told by Raven that his wife was upstairs hurt. Not just a media report.





ETA: Here's the link:


WRAL.com - Slideshow (http://www.wral.com/slideshow/4444879/detail.html?qs=;s=4;w=800)

[golfmom]

Point being that even a single word can "spin" a story in one direction or another, causing lots of confusion and speculation.

Hoppy

Point being that Raven is busy "spinning" his story. Multiple versions have been leaked, causing me to laugh my a$$ off at his lame attempts at damage control.

[JerseyGirl]

Maybe Raven knew best when he made the decision to not speak out. From the little bits that are leaked here and there, he contradicts himself constantly. He must know that his own words would catch him if he spoke out publicly.

No matter, it seems that his own words are beginning to catch him anyway. Just because you don't say it to the media doesn't mean it isn't heard. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't people keeping track.

[ewwwinteresting]

Maybe Raven knew best when he made the decision to not speak out. From the little bits that are leaked here and there, he contradicts himself constantly. He must know that his own words would catch him if he spoke out publicly.

No matter, it seems that his own words are beginning to catch him anyway. Just because you don't say it to the media doesn't mean it isn't heard. And it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't people keeping track.
It's almost as if when he choses to speak, he sounds like an idiot

Janet committed suicide
I tried CPR
I didn't try CPR
ME Report is wrong
LE doesn't know what they are doing
Feel sorry for me and send me money
Kaiden looks good

etc etc etc

and when he choses not to speak, he sounds guilty.

No memorial for Janet
No reward to find the murderer
No public outcry to find her murderer
No public outcry that he is innocent
No family or friends defending him
No comment about losing his unborn child

etc etc etc

You would think he would be smarter than that and pick the appropriate times to speak out.

[Moxie]

It's almost as if when he choses to speak, he sounds like an idiot

Janet committed suicide
I tried CPR
I didn't try CPR
ME Report is wrong
LE doesn't know what they are doing
Feel sorry for me and send me money
Kaiden looks good

etc etc etc

and when he choses not to speak, he sounds guilty.

No memorial for Janet
No reward to find the murderer
No public outcry to find her murderer
No public outcry that he is innocent
No family or friends defending him
No comment about losing his unborn child

etc etc etc

You would think he would be smarter than that and pick the appropriate times to speak out.
You would think.

I think his little plan is falling apart.

I wish there was some way we could know if there was a life insurance policy.

If one existed, there's Raven's motive.

[ewwwinteresting]

You would think.

I think his little plan is falling apart.

I wish there was some way we could know if there was a life insurance policy.

If one existed, there's Raven's motive.
He would have to provide his social security number to collect the life insurance policy so I would HOPE LE is tracking his finances and the existance of a life insurance policy would show up on the records.

[JerseyGirl]

I'm sure that LE knows if there is a life insurance policy, and if so, whether or not Raven tried to collect on it (and when he tried).

I can't help but think that the pregnancy was the motive but you have a point with the life insurance, Moxie. I wonder if there was a double motive, (or triple motive or quadruple motive ...). Or perhaps Janet said "No way am I going to drag another child into this mess ... we're leaving you." Or perhaps Raven figured that if he waited too long, he'd have to split the insurance three ways instead of two, or maybe even be removed as the beneficiary altogether.

No matter what the situation, I am sick about this and I am sick of knowing that the perp is out there enjoying his life. It's time for the scumbag that took Janet to start to feel the consequences of what he's done.

[hoppyfrog]

Hoppy,

The one article is talking about what raven stated to LE at the scene "hurt" and the other article is talking about what the 911 caller stated "injured"....(supposedly from a gunshot??)

It was also stated on Greta (Fox News) that raven told arriving LE that his wife was upstairs hurt.

Exactly my point: the one article, the other article, Greta's show (I'll take your word on that since I didn't see it), and the search warrant.....they are all other people's words, not Raven's. None of them are direct quotes. I sure wish an astute reporter would have pinned down LE about Raven's choice of words.

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

"Officer Williams advised this investigator that when he arrived at the scene, he spoke with a

Mr. Raven Abaroa, who advised that
his wife was upstairs, and that she was hurt."




Quote is direct from the application for search warrant. In this case, the reporter did not make up the language, but used what LE had provided to the judge to secure a search warrant.
Just because that's the wording on the search warrant still doesn't mean it's a direct quote from RA. I can easily imagine RA telling LE something like, "I went in there and there was blood all over. She had cuts and wounds on her hands and neck." And I can easily see that being shortened to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant. I mean, LE wants to get that warrant ASAP and get the search underway.

Hey, maybe in the end it will turn out to be a direct quote, but right now there's no evidence of that. Maybe I'm just more skeptical than others.

Hoppy

[ewwwinteresting]

Exactly my point: the one article, the other article, Greta's show (I'll take your word on that since I didn't see it), and the search warrant.....they are all other people's words, not Raven's. None of them are direct quotes. I sure wish an astute reporter would have pinned down LE about Raven's choice of words.

Hoppy
Hoppy,

Think you missed the point. It was claimed that raven said injured on the 911 call and quoted that raven said hurt when LE arrived. Therefore, since we haven't heard the 911 call, we cannot for sure state whether raven said injured or not. However, we've seen the statement from LE where raven is quoted as saying his wife was upstairs hurt. This IS raven's word, not a reporter's.

[hoppyfrog]

Hoppy,

Think you missed the point. It was claimed that raven said injured on the 911 call and quoted that raven said hurt when LE arrived. Therefore, since we haven't heard the 911 call, we cannot for sure state whether raven said injured or not. However, we've seen the statement from LE where raven is quoted as saying his wife was upstairs hurt. This IS raven's word, not a reporter's.
Nope, didn't miss anything. The application for the search warrant doesn't indicate that it is a direct quote. Period.

Hoppy

[ewwwinteresting]

Just because that's the wording on the search warrant still doesn't mean it's a direct quote from RA. I can easily imagine RA telling LE something like, "I went in there and there was blood all over. She had cuts and wounds on her hands and neck." And I can easily see that being shortened to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant. I mean, LE wants to get that warrant ASAP and get the search underway.

Hey, maybe in the end it will turn out to be a direct quote, but right now there's no evidence of that. Maybe I'm just more skeptical than others.

Hoppy
Raven stated he found her on her knees. LE arrived and found her on her back? Do you believe raven moved her? If so, do you believe raven tried to save her or just ran out of the room after he moved her? Would raven have known she was dead? If not, why wouldn't he try CPR? If so, why would he say hurt or imply hurt if she was obviously dead? Please be as skeptical as you want, I'm interested in your opinion on my questions (which, sorry, seem to be many!)

[JerseyGirl]

Just because that's the wording on the search warrant still doesn't mean it's a direct quote from RA.I can see giving someone the benefit of the doubt or waiting for physical evidence before making a judgement on guilt. However, to imply that the search warrant may have misquoted Raven or that the statement was the officer's translation of Raven's statement, IMO, is bordering on explaining away important details for the sake of your argument.

I truly admire your search for the truth through facts, and your caution in reaching a decision in your mind without "proven" facts. I think that some of the things that we've discussed ARE questionable. IMO, however, the search warrant application is very straight-forward, and is not something that is thrown together haphazardly in order to get the search started quickly. I believe that the language in the document is as accurate as the investigators can make it, and that they are accountable for the words that they choose to use in those documents.

[hoppyfrog]

Raven stated he found her on her knees. LE arrived and found her on her back? Do you believe raven moved her? If so, do you believe raven tried to save her or just ran out of the room after he moved her? Would raven have known she was dead? If not, why wouldn't he try CPR? If so, why would he say hurt or imply hurt if she was obviously dead? Please be as skeptical as you want, I'm interested in your opinion on my questions (which, sorry, seem to be many!)
Hey, no need to apologize for questions! There are waaaay to many in this case.

I find it believeable that RA found her on her knees. (I know that seems odd, but it's surely not the oddest thing that ever happened in a crime. I also believe it's possible that JA took that position when she had cramps. If that's what worked to give her relief, I find it believeable. I don't know if either RA or JA knew she was pregnant. But it's certainly possible that neither of them knew or RA didn't know, thus making RA think that she was kneeling to relieve cramps.)

Yes, I believe that LE found her on her back and I believe that RA moved her from her knees to her back.

I have no idea whatsoever about whether or not RA tried to save her. No clue. If he's NOT the murderer, it's unimaginable that he didn't try. If he IS the killer, maybe he tried and maybe he didn't. Can't say.

Why wouldn't he try CPR? 1. Because he's the killer and wanted her to die. 2. Because he didn't know how. 3. Because he was too panicked. 4. Because first aid protocol says to check the victim, then call for help, THEN start CPR. 5. Because she was dead and he knew it wouldn't help. All pure speculation.

"If so, why would he say hurt or imply hurt if she was obviously dead?"

I don't know that he did say hurt or imply hurt. Those are others' words, not his.

Hoppy

[JerseyGirl]

I don't know if either RA or JA knew she was pregnant. But it's certainly possible that neither of them knew or RA didn't know, thus making RA think that she was kneeling to relieve cramps.)On the floor of the unlit office, fully clothed, at 10:30 at night? :waitasec:

[ewwwinteresting]

Hey, no need to apologize for questions! There are waaaay to many in this case.

I find it believeable that RA found her on her knees. (I know that seems odd, but it's surely not the oddest thing that ever happened in a crime. I also believe it's possible that JA took that position when she had cramps. If that's what worked to give her relief, I find it believeable. I don't know if either RA or JA knew she was pregnant. But it's certainly possible that neither of them knew or RA didn't know, thus making RA think that she was kneeling to relieve cramps.)

Yes, I believe that LE found her on her back and I believe that RA moved her from her knees to her back.

I have no idea whatsoever about whether or not RA tried to save her. No clue. If he's NOT the murderer, it's unimaginable that he didn't try. If he IS the killer, maybe he tried and maybe he didn't. Can't say.

Why wouldn't he try CPR? 1. Because he's the killer and wanted her to die. 2. Because he didn't know how. 3. Because he was too panicked. 4. Because first aid protocol says to check the victim, then call for help, THEN start CPR. 5. Because she was dead and he knew it wouldn't help. All pure speculation.

"If so, why would he say hurt or imply hurt if she was obviously dead?"

I don't know that he did say hurt or imply hurt. Those are others' words, not his.

Hoppy
Thank you Hoppy.....lot's of info to mull over.

I asked this question earlier but don't think anyone replied and maybe because noone knows the answer, but can a deceased body stay on their knees or would the body have to be in teh process of dying to stay on their knees?

I believe if raven tried CPR, he would know she was dead and if raven didn't try CPR, he would know she was dead. The fact that he said hurt or didn't say hurt, but implied hurt doesn't make sense. If raven stated my wife is upstair dead, passed away, deceased, whatever, the PO wouldn't have stated or implied raven indicated his wife was hurt, don't you think?

[ewwwinteresting]

I can see giving someone the benefit of the doubt or waiting for physical evidence before making a judgement on guilt. However, to imply that the search warrant may have misquoted Raven or that the statement was the officer's translation of Raven's statement, IMO, is bordering on explaining away important details for the sake of your argument.

I truly admire your search for the truth through facts, and your caution in reaching a decision in your mind without "proven" facts. I think that some of the things that we've discussed ARE questionable. IMO, however, the search warrant application is very straight-forward, and is not something that is thrown together haphazardly in order to get the search started quickly. I believe that the language in the document is as accurate as the investigators can make it, and that they are accountable for the words that they choose to use in those documents.
JG, I agree with Hoppy in one point that the Officer or Detective may not have exactly quoted raven, but I do believe if raven told the Officer or Detective, his wife was deceased, he wouldn't have stated raven said hurt. raven HAD to have said hurt or implied hurt with other words.

[JerseyGirl]

I don't know that he did say hurt or imply hurt. Those are others' words, not his.And the testimony of those "others" will be considered reliable testimony once a case is brought against a suspect in Janet's murder. The officer that claimed that Raven stated that his wife was upstairs hurt will be called to the stand, and the jury will most likely give credence to his recollections.

Raven hasn't made any public statements. Heck, he wouldn't even provide pictures to an old schoolmate for an article about Janet. So all we have to go on in terms of statements are those from LE. Do I trust LE's account of Raven's words that night? Absolutely. IMO, they have no reason to misrepresent what he said. I would try to combine my interpretations of LE's statements with Raven's direct quotes but he's chosen to hire an attorney and say nothing so there are no quotes from Raven to evaluate.

[ewwwinteresting]

On the floor of the unlit office, fully clothed, at 10:30 at night? :waitasec:
If raven was clueless on how a woman relieves cramp, I may buy into it, but the fact that raven stated she was in this position before, it doesn't make sense.....especially being all dressed with shoes on. Talk about uncomfortable during a major cramping episode!

[JerseyGirl]

JG, I agree with Hoppy in one point that the Officer or Detective may not have exactly quoted raven, but I do believe if raven told the Officer or Detective, his wife was deceased, he wouldn't have stated raven said hurt. raven HAD to have said hurt or implied hurt with other words.I still disagree on the first part of your statement. Would it be easier for Raven in a panic to say - "Come quick, my wife's upstairs hurt" or would it be easier for him to say "Come quick - my wife's upstairs, and she's got wounds and there's blood all over the place ..."? He'd probably blurt out - "my wife's hurt". I believe it's a very close (if not direct) quote of what Raven told the officer. But I could be wrong of course.

[JerseyGirl]

If raven was clueless on how a woman relieves cramp, I may buy into it, but the fact that raven stated she was in this position before, it doesn't make sense.....especially being all dressed with shoes on. Talk about uncomfortable during a major cramping episode!At 10:30 at night, I would expect that she'd be in bed. And if not in bed, at least in her cramps position on her bedroom floor. Has anyone asked Raven how often she'd assumed this position in the dark office late at night, fully clothed?

[hoppyfrog]

On the floor of the unlit office, fully clothed, at 10:30 at night? :waitasec:
I'm sure that all the women who post here could tell story after story about what they and their friends have done to relieve cramps. (NOT that I'm asking to hear the stories!)

I'm NOT saying that JA was indeed having cramps and trying to relieve them, only that I could see how RA would think that. And, if it was dark in the room, he may not have seen that she was fully dressed and had shoes on.

Hoppy

[ewwwinteresting]

I still disagree on the first part of your statement. Would it be easier for Raven in a panic to say - "Come quick, my wife's upstairs hurt" or would it be easier for him to say "Come quick - my wife's upstairs, and she's got wounds and there's blood all over the place ..."? He'd probably blurt out - "my wife's hurt". I believe it's a very close (if not direct) quote of what Raven told the officer. But I could be wrong of course.
Well, personally, I hope he was craddling Kaiden and stated, my wife is upstairs, I tried everything to save her but she died.

Since there is NOTHING to indicate anything happened like that, I, too, would believe that the officer quoted raven or came very close to quoting raven. What I do believe is that raven never stated his wife was already dead.

[JerseyGirl]

I'm sure that all the women who post here could tell story after story about what they and their friends have done to relieve cramps. (NOT that I'm asking to hear the stories!)True, but when you have cramps, the goal is to make them go away and to try to find some degree of comfort. It seems that it would be more likely to accomplish that in your bed with a hot water bottle, not on a hard floor with your shoes on and your earrings still in. JMO.

[JerseyGirl]

What I do believe is that raven never stated his wife was already dead.He might not have realized that she died while he was running around trying to find the cell phone. :rolleyes:

[hoppyfrog]

Thank you Hoppy.....lot's of info to mull over.

I asked this question earlier but don't think anyone replied and maybe because noone knows the answer, but can a deceased body stay on their knees or would the body have to be in teh process of dying to stay on their knees?
I have no idea.

Could she have been kneeling but with her side/shoulder against a wall or piece of furniture for support?

Also, you said, "If raven stated my wife is upstair dead, passed away, deceased, whatever, the PO wouldn't have stated or implied raven indicated his wife was hurt, don't you think?"

I agree with you, which makes me think he may have made a longer and more ambiguous statement to LE which was shortened or paraphrased to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant.

Hoppy

[LTUlegal]

It seems to me that selecting out the word "hurt" is a defense tactic, sort of a sleazy attorney practice, especially when there seems to be no other way out of a case. Tomato/tomato...he did it..raven/rooster/chicken/duck. It walks like a duck, talks like a duck. Raven killed Janet.

eta: jmo and the opinion of many others.

[ewwwinteresting]

He might not have realized that she died while he was running around trying to find the cell phone. :rolleyes:Oh, I forgot about that information. JG, I just don't understand how raven could have tried to save her, run around looking for the cell phone, and call 911 in 8 minutes? Wouldn't you try CPR longer than that?

So, let's assume he did not try to save her, but found her and then ran around and called 911......he still is home at TOD?

How does anything else make sense except that raven committed this act.

Hoppy: asked your opinion on the TOD thread....can you help speculate with me on this issue?

[hoppyfrog]

I can see giving someone the benefit of the doubt or waiting for physical evidence before making a judgement on guilt. However, to imply that the search warrant may have misquoted Raven or that the statement was the officer's translation of Raven's statement, IMO, is bordering on explaining away important details for the sake of your argument.

I truly admire your search for the truth through facts, and your caution in reaching a decision in your mind without "proven" facts. I think that some of the things that we've discussed ARE questionable. IMO, however, the search warrant application is very straight-forward, and is not something that is thrown together haphazardly in order to get the search started quickly. I believe that the language in the document is as accurate as the investigators can make it, and that they are accountable for the words that they choose to use in those documents.
I guess I don't have as high an opinion of LE as you do. In an ideal world you'd be absolutely correct.

Hoppy

[JerseyGirl]

I agree with you, which makes me think he may have made a longer and more ambiguous statement to LE which was shortened or paraphrased to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant.If Raven was allegedly in a panic, and went on and on and on with some ambiguous statement to the responding officer, that would be even MORE reason for me to suspect that he's the perp. What innocent person would stand there babbling a lengthy description of injuries rather than saying "My wife's hurt - HURRY!"

[ewwwinteresting]

I have no idea.

Could she have been kneeling but with her side/shoulder against a wall or piece of furniture for support?

Also, you said, "If raven stated my wife is upstair dead, passed away, deceased, whatever, the PO wouldn't have stated or implied raven indicated his wife was hurt, don't you think?"

I agree with you, which makes me think he may have made a longer and more ambiguous statement to LE which was shortened or paraphrased to "hurt" in the application for the search warrant.

Hoppy
Definitely agree with this....PO wouldn't have said hurt if raven indicated dead.

Ohh, didn't think about the body lying against a piece of furniture or wall. raven claims he could see her down the hall in the dark so I wonder how the room was set up and if this would have been possible to see from the hallway.

Don't we have pictures of the office/bedroom somewhere?

[JerseyGirl]

I guess I don't have as high an opinion of LE as you do. In an ideal world you'd be absolutely correct.I DO tend to be a bit naive. But at this point, if it comes down to Raven's word or LE's, I'm gonna' put my faith in LE. But I do enjoy the debate. :)

[hoppyfrog]

True, but when you have cramps, the goal is to make them go away and to try to find some degree of comfort. It seems that it would be more likely to accomplish that in your bed with a hot water bottle, not on a hard floor with your shoes on and your earrings still in. JMO.
To each her own.

Hoppy

[JerseyGirl]

Oh, I forgot about that information. JG, I just don't understand how raven could have tried to save her, run around looking for the cell phone, and call 911 in 8 minutes?Don't forget that he also kissed Kaiden! That probably adds another 30 seconds or more to his timeline.

[JerseyGirl]

To each her own.It took me a while to fully realize where I stood on this case. I totally appreciate and admire your desire to ask questions. I've been there myself.

[hoppyfrog]

Oh, I forgot about that information. JG, I just don't understand how raven could have tried to save her, run around looking for the cell phone, and call 911 in 8 minutes? Wouldn't you try CPR longer than that?

So, let's assume he did not try to save her, but found her and then ran around and called 911......he still is home at TOD?

How does anything else make sense except that raven committed this act.

Hoppy: asked your opinion on the TOD thread....can you help speculate with me on this issue?
You're right: either RA committed the act or someone else committed it and slipped out of the house JUST before RA arrives home. That's why some weeks back I wanted to know the TOD. It sheds a lot of light, IMO.

Anyone know if the autopsy report says how far along JA was in her pregnancy?

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

It took me a while to fully realize where I stood on this case. I totally appreciate and admire your desire to ask questions. I've been there myself.
I meant "to each her own" in how she relieves cramps! LOL

I appreciate your post.

Hoppy

[JerseyGirl]

Anyone know if the autopsy report says how far along JA was in her pregnancy?No, but the autopsy noted that the uterus was "unremarkable". At 6 weeks of pregnancy, an increase in the size of the uterus would have been evident. Therefore, we can assume that she was likely less than 6 weeks.

[hoppyfrog]

I DO tend to be a bit naive. But at this point, if it comes down to Raven's word or LE's, I'm gonna' put my faith in LE. :)
Oh, I have to agree with that!

Hoppy

[JerseyGirl]

I meant "to each her own" in how she relieves cramps! LOLI know. I just didn't have anything left to say about it but wanted to tell you that I appreciate where you're coming from. :)

[hoppyfrog]

No, but the autopsy noted that the uterus was "unremarkable". At 6 weeks of pregnancy, an increase in the size of the uterus would have been evident. Therefore, we can assume that she was likely less than 6 weeks.
Thanks, I guess that helps somewhat. Though it means she may or may not have known. (Realizing that some women's cycles are longer than average and some are exceptionally irregular.)

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

I know. I just didn't have anything left to say about it but wanted to tell you that I appreciate where you're coming from. :)
Gotcha.

Hoppy

[ewwwinteresting]

Thanks, I guess that helps somewhat. Though it means she may or may not have known. (Realizing that some women's cycles are longer than average and some are exceptionally irregular.)

Hoppy
Of course, we have another poster that confirmed Janet knew since she told one or two of her friends. Now again, it could be one of Janet's friends lying now...but since Janet doesn't come across as a liar, maybe her friends aren't either.

[JerseyGirl]

Thanks, I guess that helps somewhat. Though it means she may or may not have known. (Realizing that some women's cycles are longer than average and some are exceptionally irregular.)I believe she did know but you are right. There's no way that we can know that for sure. I imagine that if she did tell friends of hers, that information will come out. And since an Hcg test was performed, the numbers will also help to determine how pregnant she was at the time.

What I find to be ironic and just too coincidental is that based on the thickening of the lining in the uterus, Janet was probably at the stage of pregnancy when she would have recently realized she was pregnant. And then suddenly she's murdered. On a night when Raven just happened to be away from home and when there just happened to be no cars at the house, giving the appearance that the house was empty. Why, oh why, did Raven have to bring all of the vehicles somewhere else that night? Maybe if he didn't, this would never have happened.

(Sorry for the sarcasm; I just can't help myself sometimes. It's directed at Raven though - not you!)

[LTUlegal]

Of course, we have another poster that confirmed Janet knew since she told one or two of her friends. Now again, it could be one of Janet's friends lying now...but since Janet doesn't come across as a liar, maybe her friends aren't either.
I would swear I could tell at the conception point, my body changed nearly immediately! But not all women are alike, that's for certain! I wish I knew for sure who she'd told & if they'd post here that'd be great! If it's in another thread, lemme know, because I think I missed it. TIA!!:blowkiss:

[ewwwinteresting]

I believe she did know but you are right. There's no way that we can know that for sure. I imagine that if she did tell friends of hers, that information will come out. And since an Hcg test was performed, the numbers will also help to determine how pregnant she was at the time.

What I find to be ironic and just too coincidental is that based on the thickening of the lining in the uterus, Janet was probably at the stage of pregnancy when she would have recently realized she was pregnant. And then suddenly she's murdered. On a night when Raven just happened to be away from home and when there just happened to be no cars at the house, giving the appearance that the house was empty. Why, oh why, did Raven have to bring all of the vehicles somewhere else that night? Maybe if he didn't, this would never have happened.

(Sorry for the sarcasm; I just can't help myself sometimes. It's directed at Raven though - not you!)
But the fact is raven wasn't away from home. TOD 10:55 pm.....raven home 10:30ish. Am I the only one that can't get over this blaring fact?

[ewwwinteresting]

I would swear I could tell at the conception point, my body changed nearly immediately! But not all women are alike, that's for certain! I wish I knew for sure who she'd told & if they'd post here that'd be great! If it's in another thread, lemme know, because I think I missed it. TIA!!:blowkiss:
I know it was posted by Offroad....maybe in the pregnancy thread?

[JerseyGirl]

But the fact is raven wasn't away from home. TOD 10:55 pm.....raven home 10:30ish. Am I the only one that can't get over this blaring fact?You're not the only one. I can't look past this fact either. IMO, we've found the perp. Now it's just time to wait for justice.

[LTUlegal]

I know it was posted by Offroad....maybe in the pregnancy thread?
thank you!

[ewwwinteresting]

It seems to me that selecting out the word "hurt" is a defense tactic, sort of a sleazy attorney practice, especially when there seems to be no other way out of a case. Tomato/tomato...he did it..raven/rooster/chicken/duck. It walks like a duck, talks like a duck. Raven killed Janet.

eta: jmo and the opinion of many others.
LOL LTU! I have to agree with the fact that raven's defense attorney will have to tap dance uphill to prove that it might not be a duck even if it walks and talks like one.

Since raven has no real job, probably going to be a court appointed one. His embezzlement lawyer didn't help his life much....kept him out of jail, but a life as a bike shop boy doesn't seem like raven's cup of tea.

[LTUlegal]

LOL LTU! I have to agree with the fact that raven's defense attorney will have to tap dance uphill to prove that it might not be a duck even if it walks and talks like one.

Since raven has no real job, probably going to be a court appointed one. His embezzlement lawyer didn't help his life much....kept him out of jail, but a life as a bike shop boy doesn't seem like raven's cup of tea.Yup, get the tap shoes & the sparkly outfit on! LOL!
Don't you think his mommy would buy him a pretty attorney, though? It seemed his embezzlement attorney would like to have popped him on the back of his head when he put his face in front of the camera and his mouth in front of the mic...him and sp, they just can't seem to get that mic thing right!
Hurt? yeah, Janet was "hurt"...hurt to death! :mad:

[ewwwinteresting]

thank you!
09-21-2005, 07:35 AM
OffRoad (http://websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=7148) http://websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_814684", true);
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7


Quote:
Originally Posted by golfmom
It'll be interesting to see if Janet shared the information of her pregnancy with friends locally, especially in light of their obvious concern for her safety.


I am not sure if Janet told her family, or even Raven about the pregnancy, but I do know that she did tell one or two of her closest friends.

[ewwwinteresting]

Yup, get the tap shoes & the sparkly outfit on! LOL!
Don't you think his mommy would buy him a pretty attorney, though? It seemed his embezzlement attorney would like to have popped him on the back of his head when he put his face in front of the camera and his mouth in front of the mic...him and sp, they just can't seem to get that mic thing right!
Hurt? yeah, Janet was "hurt"...hurt to death! :mad:
Well, you noticed the guy was firmly nudging raven to shut up and raven immediately turned over all questions to his attorney. I think that attorney already knew raven was an idiot.

[LTUlegal]

Now if we could get one of those close friends to post here.

09-21-2005, 07:35 AM
OffRoad (http://websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=7148) http://websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_814684", true);
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7


Quote:
Originally Posted by golfmom
It'll be interesting to see if Janet shared the information of her pregnancy with friends locally, especially in light of their obvious concern for her safety.


I am not sure if Janet told her family, or even Raven about the pregnancy, but I do know that she did tell one or two of her closest friends.

[LTUlegal]

Well, you noticed the guy was firmly nudging raven to shut up and raven immediately turned over all questions to his attorney. I think that attorney already knew raven was an idiot.
I didn't go to 4+ years of law school (but I live near one!) and even I could tell he's not the sharpest tool in the shed! LOL

[ewwwinteresting]

Now if we could get one of those close friends to post here.
Yes, we talk about raven's family and friends not claiming his innocent but we haven't heard from Janet's family or much from janet's friends either. My hope is that if Janet's friends know something, they are talking to LE.

[LTUlegal]

Yes, we talk about raven's family and friends not claiming his innocent but we haven't heard from Janet's family or much from janet's friends either. My hope is that if Janet's friends know something, they are talking to LE.
You're right...it's the "fly on the wall" in me...I want all the details myself! :blushing:

[JerseyGirl]

Okay, here we go again. I'm sorry about my memory but ...

I thought Raven hired an attorney to have on hand regarding Janet's murder within days of the murder. And then someone said that the same attorney that was representing him on the embezzlement was the one telling him how to handle the murder issues. The embezzlement lawyer really did look quite concerned about Raven answering questions about Janet. And he did say something like "we are anxious for an arrest" or something along those lines. If he wasn't also representing Raven regarding the murder, would he even care what Raven said in response to those questions? It wouldn't be his problem, would it? All he'd have to do is get through Raven's embezzlement trial and then Raven would be on his own to handle the second situation with the other attorney, right?

[LTUlegal]

Okay, here we go again. I'm sorry about my memory but ...

I thought Raven hired an attorney to have on hand regarding Janet's murder within days of the murder. And then someone said that the same attorney that was representing him on the embezzlement was the one telling him how to handle the murder issues. The embezzlement lawyer really did look quite concerned about Raven answering questions about Janet. And he did say something like "we are anxious for an arrest" or something along those lines. If he wasn't also representing Raven regarding the murder, would he even care what Raven said in response to those questions? It wouldn't be his problem, would it? All he'd have to do is get through Raven's embezzlement trial and then Raven would be on his own to handle the second situation with the other attorney, right?
I think my memory is the same on that, JG...unfortunately, that's saying a lot for me because I tend to forget a lot, admitedly...but did he officially HIRE an attorney to represent him for the murder, if he hasn't been arrested, YET? Did he retain one "just in case"? Or is that just a matter of semantics? Gosh, I don't know. I thought we'd looked into his embezzlement attorney to find out what types of cases he handles but now my lack of memory is showing.

[ewwwinteresting]

Okay, here we go again. I'm sorry about my memory but ...

I thought Raven hired an attorney to have on hand regarding Janet's murder within days of the murder. And then someone said that the same attorney that was representing him on the embezzlement was the one telling him how to handle the murder issues. The embezzlement lawyer really did look quite concerned about Raven answering questions about Janet. And he did say something like "we are anxious for an arrest" or something along those lines. If he wasn't also representing Raven regarding the murder, would he even care what Raven said in response to those questions? It wouldn't be his problem, would it? All he'd have to do is get through Raven's embezzlement trial and then Raven would be on his own to handle the second situation with the other attorney, right?
Oh JG, you are so right. The embezzlement hearing was over. If Mack (wasn't that his name) wasn't representing him regarding the murder, he wouldn't have cared what raven said. He must be the one that told raven not to take a lie detector test...smart move when your client is probably guilty.

[golfmom]

IMO, hoppyfrog landed on a very damning piece of evidence when s/he pointed out the word hurt attributed to Raven. Reporters often do get details incorrect, but LE would want to make damn sure everything in there is 100% accurate or risk losing the evidence collected on a technicality. I believe if LE said he used the word hurt, then Raven did use the word hurt.

So why do I think hurt poses such a problem for Raven? He's been running his mouth and telling a number of different stories. Now that the TOD has been established while he was in the home, the only way Janet could have been hurt was by him.

He's gotta distance himself from that statement fast.

[let it snow]

Yes, we talk about raven's family and friends not claiming his innocent but we haven't heard from Janet's family or much from janet's friends either. My hope is that if Janet's friends know something, they are talking to LE.
I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!

[Moxie]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!

Welcome to the board, Let it Snow. We are glad to hear from you. The silence from Raven's supporters has been deafening. We are open to hearing from you why you know Raven is innocent. Because if he is innocent, we need to direct our efforts elsewhere. Can you provide us with specific facts as to why Raven is innocent and should not be viewed as the murderer? That would be a huge help, as that way we can use that information to go after the awful person who murdered sweet Janet. Thank you.

[LTUlegal]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!
Welcome to the site. I'm sure Raven appreciates your support. I certainly wouldn't want to ignore the terms of service of this site and ask who Rooster is....I already have a very good idea of who I think it is.

I have a question about the fund...is the money going into a trust fund for Kaiden to have access at an older age, or does Raven have access to any and all monies? In other words, who distributes the funds and where do they go? Thank you in advance.

[golfmom]

Welcome to WS LIT, I hope you stick around. Regardless if Raven is vindicated or arrested for this crime, I'm here for the long-haul and certainly appreciate opposing views.

I personally think things look very bad for Raven right now. Clearly Raven had the means, motive and opportunity to murder his wife and unborn baby. All that's missing is evidence of premeditation. I shook my magic 8 ball this morning and asked if we were close to an arrest and it appears that one is imminent.

[terminatrixator]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!
This site is trying to help bring justice for Janet, but I do seriously believe the friends and family of Janet need to open their eyes, and look at the facts on hand. Raven has lied to his family, he cheated, he continues to lie to his friends and family, and is playing the bereaved husband, but the fact remains, he was there when she was murdered.

Janet did not DIE, that is the main thing you and the family of Raven need to realize, Janet WAS Murdered. Huge difference, she did not commit suicide, she was not robbed, she did not have a lover, a boyfriend, she was pregnant, Janet knew she was pregnant, Raven knew she was pregnant, nobody was out for revenge, she was not hurt, she was dead, Raven knew this too.

I am sorry for the loss you feel, but I will not apologize for anything I have said on here, regarding Raven Abaroa. He is a liar, he is a convicted felon and he is a Murderer, and Justice for Janet, her unborn child, Kaiden, the Christiansens, the family and friends of Janet will Prevail!

[Moxie]

This site is trying to help bring justice for Janet, but I do seriously believe the friends and family of Janet need to open their eyes, and look at the facts on hand. Raven has lied to his family, he cheated, he continues to lie to his friends and family, and is playing the bereaved husband, but the fact remains, he was there when she was murdered.

Janet did not DIE, that is the main thing you and the family of Raven need to realize, Janet WAS Murdered. Huge difference, she did not commit suicide, she was not robbed, she did not have a lover, a boyfriend, she was pregnant, Janet knew she was pregnant, Raven knew she was pregnant, nobody was out for revenge, she was not hurt, she was dead, Raven knew this too.

I am sorry for the loss you feel, but I will not apologize for anything I have said on here, regarding Raven Abaroa. He is a liar, he is a convicted felon and he is a Murderer, and Justice for Janet, her unborn child, Kaiden, the Christiansens, the family and friends of Janet will Prevail!
Term,

You make excellent points in your statement. I was hoping LetItSnow would be able to provide specific reasons as to why Raven is innocent, but so far they have not.

I hope Raven is not playing them for a fool.

Moxie

[golfmom]

Term,

You make excellent points in your statement. I was hoping LetItSnow would be able to provide specific reasons as to why Raven is innocent, but so far they have not.

I hope Raven is not playing them for a fool.

Moxie

Heck if Raven had his way, everyone would still believe she commited suicide.

[Moxie]

Heck if Raven had his way, everyone would still believe she commited suicide.Yes, you are right. I believe that was his original story. I can't even comprehend how horrible that must have been for Janet's parents.

[LTUlegal]

Yes, you are right. I believe that was his original story. I can't even comprehend how horrible that must have been for Janet's parents.
I still find exception with the idea of an innocent person making up so many stories, not doing anything to sustain the memory of his wife, nor claim his own innocence. I don't know of many innocent people behaving the way Raven has.
If LIS IS a friend or relative of Raven, I believe they're looking at things with rose colored glasses or a big fog in front of their eyes. I suppose it's a nice thing that Raven has support, everyone needs that...but I believe they will be sadly disappointed, soon. And if LIS in fact KNOWS Raven is innocent, please show us examples of the innocence because it sure doesn't look like he is to sooo many here. I go back to the statement I made last night. The bird looks like a duck, walks like a duck & talks like a duck...a GUILTY duck. Guilty of Janet's murder. Guilty of her unborn child's murder. Guilty of taking Kaiden's mother away from him.
Innocent people don't behave the way Raven is.

[Justgimmethetruth]

I think you guys have scared Let It Snow away. And that's too bad because I would like to hear something from someone who actually knows Raven's family. It would be nice to have a different view posted here, don't you think??

[Jenifred]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!
Welcome to the board let it snow. Glad you've spoken up. I commend you for that and I respect your opinion. In your eyes Raven is innocent. That's wonderful, but have you really investigated this crime to the fullest? Have you given credence to anything other than Raven's word?

Do you see the number different variations that Raven has given of that night? Don't you think that it's a little odd that his story keeps changing? There is not one version of the story that has all the different components of his many attempts to tell the truth--I would think that an innocent man could at least get his story straight. And the differenc accounts even contradict themselves at different points.

Don't you think that it's odd to think that after LE interviewed Raven they wanted to go back and re-search his Durango to see how it tied into the crime? Or to see that knives from the house were taken? Or to see that LE hasn't come out and said Raven isn't a suspect?

I also think that it's very interesting to see how many friends of Janet's have come here and posted or pm'ed people helping to get the truth posted, but you see only one (two, including you) claiming to be Raven's friend or helping us with Raven's side of the events. There's no one that said they played soccer with him that evening, no one that has come out and said they worked with him, or really that has had that kind of relationship with Raven. I'm sorry, but I fear that no one speaking out for Raven speaks louder than words can.

I'm sorry for what has transpired with your friends. But you've got it better than most of the people on this board, you can set the record straight. I know that I'm not the only one on here that would like to know what are half-truths and non-truths posted here on this board are. I want to hear why you are so adamant about Raven's innocence when all evidence found says differently.

[ewwwinteresting]

I think you guys have scared Let It Snow away. And that's too bad because I would like to hear something from someone who actually knows Raven's family. It would be nice to have a different view posted here, don't you think??
If you want a different view JGMTT, then post one! No one scared LIS. It's the same thing that happened with rooster. They have nothing to offer except stating I know raven's innocent. No information, no facts, no evidence, no circumstancial evidence, no argument with what's been found out so far...nothing.

Good luck waiting for someone that actually knows raven or his family to actually investigate the truth here.

[ewwwinteresting]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!
What person in their right mind would be thinking about money the MORNING after Janet and her unborn baby was MURDERED??????????

[snapple]

What person in their right mind would be thinking about money the MORNING after Janet and her unborn baby was MURDERED??????????
UUUUMMMM..maybe somebody that needs lots and lots of $$$ for a defense. I hear it can be quite expensive defending someone who is quilty.

[snapple]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!
Like that's a big secret!!:rolleyes:

[ewwwinteresting]

[/b]
Like that's a big secret!!:rolleyes:
Snaps for Snapple!

[JerseyGirl]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!Let it snow, I first want to thank you for posting. I imagine it must be very difficult, not only knowing the people involved, but also seeing that your opinion is in the minority.

I do want to say that your two mentions above about the people that "actually know" Raven and Janet sounds a bit angry - as if you think that perhaps we have no reason to make judgements because we didn't know them. You are correct - many of us here do not know the family, (although some of us did). But we heard about this case, and were saddened by it, and chose to discuss it in the hopes that the truth will be found. I hope that you aren't angry at or hurt by us because we really are the only ones talking about this right now. If it weren't for this site and this forum, Janet's case would be sitting on someone's desk somewhere and only those that knew and loved her would know anything about her. We have joined in the fight for justice for her without knowing her. Instead of being angry about us, our research, and our opinions, I hope that you can at least appreciate that we have refused to let Janet's story go quiet. At the risk of appearing to be patting myself on the back, I think that our efforts here are commendable. We made the choice to participate in this forum from our hearts. There are many other things that we could all be doing with our time but we have chosen to devote some of that time to talking about Janet's story again and again and again. Because her life DID mean something - not only to those that knew her but also to many of us that didn't. I think that our time spent here and the many, many hours of collective research we've done gives us the right to make judgements and state our opinions. I truly apologize if any of that is hurtful to you. We really all do share just one goal - to keep talking about this until Janet's murderer is arrested, and forced to pay the consequences for what he's done.

I do agree with you that if you were here to defend Raven to all of us that it would require all of your time. But I hope that you will come back to share some ideas with us because believe it or not, many of us are open to other ideas. We just don't know what other ways we can look without facts or persuasive opinions to steer us away from Raven.

FWIW, I hope that you realize that we care about Janet's family and friends. Most of us are fortunate in the fact that we haven't had to deal with something so horribly painful. I can't even begin to imagine the sadness for those of you that know this family, and have seen it broken apart. I am very sorry for what you're experiencing. I hope that justice will be found soon - regardless of who it is - so those of you that knew Janet can have at least some kind of closure. I also hope that time will help to lessen some of your pain.

As I said, please feel free to join us here again. I speak for many of us when I say that we are interested in you joining our discussion, and are willing to give you the space to say what you feel. Your opinion, obviously, is just as valid as any of ours and I, for one, promise to never attack you for anything you say.

Thanks again for posting, and please feel free to continue doing so! :)

[Jenifred]

Let it snow--one question, why, at a time that was so sad and confusing, did you set up a memorial fund? As it's been stated here, it was done the day after Janet's murder. I don't think that I would be thinking of that immediately after a loved one was found dead.

[juliagoulia]

Let it snow--one question, why, at a time that was so sad and confusing, did you set up a memorial fund? As it's been stated here, it was done the day after Janet's murder. I don't think that I would be thinking of that immediately after a loved one was found dead.
If I was thinking money at all, it would be a REWARD for information leading to the arrest of the murderer...

[golfmom]

If I was thinking money at all, it would be a REWARD for information leading to the arrest of the murderer...

I swear julia, if I thought it once here, I've thought it a hundred times ... thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious to the Abaroa's.

The fund should not have been set up for Raven to buy a new $500 cell phone, nor any of the bills that he *forgot* to pay with the money he received from his crime.

[radar]

You would think.

I think his little plan is falling apart.

I wish there was some way we could know if there was a life insurance policy.

If one existed, there's Raven's motive.
A life insurance policy would hold no significance to me. Many married couples have life insurance.

[JerseyGirl]

A life insurance policy would hold no significance to me. Many married couples have life insurance.I guess it would depend on when it was purchased, and how long after death any claims were filed. Yes, lots of people have life insurance policies. And lots of people have life insurance policies come up in court during their spousal murder trials. When considered with other factors, it can be quite significant.

[golfmom]

I guess it would depend on when it was purchased, and how long after death any claims were filed. Yes, lots of people have life insurance policies. And lots of people have life insurance policies come up in court during their spousal murder trial. When considered with other factors, it can be quite significant.

Timing can be everything, but finances would play a big part as well. Let's say someone couldn't afford to pay their rent, car payments, credit card bills, utility bills, etc. and still manages to have a big ticket life insurance policy, i'd consider that quite significant as well.

[BirdHunter]

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF. Not on behalf of "the family" or any of Janet and Ravens friends. Unlike so many of you....I do know Janet, Raven and Kaiden.
You all keep asking "Were is Ravens support?", "Why isn't his family trying to defend him?","Why aren't we active on this sight?" Well like I said, I only speak for myself. I know Raven, I KNOW RAVEN IS INNOCENT!!!! I have been following your discussion on this sight. If I had to defend Raven to every one of you, I would be on this site 24 hours a day. I choose to support Raven and Kaiden in private. I choose to mourn the loss of Janet and her baby in private. For you to judge the number of people, family and friends (who actually know Raven and Janet) by your polls and postings is just not fair. You know, it is hard to even read some of the things you have posted on this sight. Do you guys seriously think that your accusations make anyone who knows the Abaroa, Bolton or Christensen family, want to join your site???
I think about Janet every day. I miss her too. I hope this sight can help bring justice for Janet.
P.S. I am the one who set up the Janet Abaroa Christensen Fund in Utah. I opened the account the morning after she died. Oh, and I know who Rooster is!It was good to finally see some one who knows Raven, post. However, Janet?? Janet's name is: Janet Marie CHRISTIANSEN Abaroa.

[JerseyGirl]

Welcome to the forum, BirdHunter. Love the name. ;)

[terminatrixator]

Welcome to the Forum BirdHunter, and I pray the Bird gets caged, then fried soon.

[BirdHunter]

I guess it would depend on when it was purchased, and how long after death any claims were filed. Yes, lots of people have life insurance policies. And lots of people have life insurance policies come up in court during their spousal murder trials. When considered with other factors, it can be quite significant.Good point JG. I can't ever fathom how money, no matter the amount, would ever motivate me to commit murder. But, you are right, you hear about it often during trials. If there was an insurance policy on Janet, it would matter to me how long after her death Raven tried to collect ont it. Say if he called the insurance company before the funeral took place. This would be a serious problem for me.

[JerseyGirl]

Say if he called the insurance company before the funeral took place. This would be a serious problem for me.I couldn't agree more. I would find that to be seriously disgusting. How badly would you need cash to file a claim before you've even buried your loved one???

[terminatrixator]

I cannot even fathom someone killing their wife, who was pregnant. But, that would be pure premeditation right there, if this were actually the case. I need to pop some Tylenol, I just got a huge headache even trying to grasp this as a theory.

[LTUlegal]

Good point JG. I can't ever fathom how money, no matter the amount, would ever motivate me to commit murder. But, you are right, you hear about it often during trials. If there was an insurance policy on Janet, it would matter to me how long after her death Raven tried to collect ont it. Say if he called the insurance company before the funeral took place. This would be a serious problem for me.
I would have serious issue with that, as well. Which would then be yet another RED FLAG SCREAMING his guilt.

[ewwwinteresting]

I couldn't agree more. I would find that to be seriously disgusting. How badly would you need cash to file a claim before you've even buried your loved one???
This would be interesting to put in order:

1. When did raven hire an attorney...or ask his embezzlement attorney to help him with the murder issue?

2. When did raven call the life insurance company to ask for a claim packet to be sent to him?

3. When was the 'GIVE ME MONEY' trust fund set up?

We know the trust fund was set up hours later and I would bet the first two were initiated before that.

[ewwwinteresting]

I would have serious issue with that, as well. Which would then be yet another RED FLAG SCREAMING his guilt.
I thought I read or heard that Janet's family paid for the funeral in its entirety...raven wouldn't have needed money for the funeral. You would think he would have had at least the decency to pay Janet's family back for the funeral from the free trust fund money, but we haven't heard he even did that!!!

[LTUlegal]

I thought I read or heard that Janet's family paid for the funeral in its entirety...raven wouldn't have needed money for the funeral. You would think he would have had at least the decency to pay Janet's family back for the funeral from the free trust fund money, but we haven't heard he even did that!!!
Wow, poor Janet...she thought she was kissing a prince & it really turned out to be a TOAD.
Raven must've watched Jerry McGuire a lot so he could get "show me the money" down pat. He's making Scott Peterson look pretty spiffy right now.:doh:

[Bobbisangel]

But the fact is raven wasn't away from home. TOD 10:55 pm.....raven home 10:30ish. Am I the only one that can't get over this blaring fact?


There must be a reason that he hasn't been arrested yet so it must not be that simple. If LE could put Raven in the home before Janet was murdered they would have arrested him. There has to be a reason that he hasn't been arrested. I don't think this case is cut and dried...at least not in the eyes of LE.

How do we know for sure what time Raven got home that night? I'm sure he didn't say 10:30ish or did he say that before he found out the time of death?

I don't think Let It Snow had any intention of sticking around. I think he/she came her to say his/her piece and that was all. I would like to hear why that person is so sure that Raven is innocent.

[JerseyGirl]

There must be a reason that he hasn't been arrested yet so it must not be that simple. If LE could put Raven in the home before Janet was murdered they would have arrested him. There has to be a reason that he hasn't been arrested. I don't think this case is cut and dried...at least not in the eyes of LE.I think that this case is going to be largely circumstantial. Either that or they are going to use the circumstantial elements to bolster their case. There's a lot of mention of back-ups in the labs and that could be a part of it. Maybe they are waiting on the Google data to see if they can prove premeditation, as many have stated.

How do we know for sure what time Raven got home that night? I'm sure he didn't say 10:30ish or did he say that before he found out the time of death?Raven's own story places him at home at 10:30. According to the autopsy, the onset of injury was about 10:50 and TOD was about 10:55. If Raven is the perp, he clearly had no idea how narrowly TOD could be determined.

I don't think Let It Snow had any intention of sticking around. I think he/she came her to say his/her piece and that was all. I would like to hear why that person is so sure that Raven is innocent.I agree, Bobbisangel. Apparently we touched a nerve, and she came to yell and tell us all how she's in the know and we're not. I imagine that something like this has to be terribly painful for those that know the families. However, I think that people need to look at this with an open mind. If Raven is the perp, those that blindly defend him with nothing to back it up are equally at risk when it comes to dangerous people. You've got to be able to spot the warning signs. Even if Raven is somehow not the perp, there are just a ton of warning signs in him that he could be (is).

I personally will continue to look forward to Raven's arrest. I have no trouble considering other theories but virtually none have been put forward here. I'm not able to let family member's general statements about Raven's innocence sway my opinion. I guess the truth will come out in time. If he is not the perp, A LOT of people are going to be immeasurably shocked. If he is, I don't think that the shock will be nearly as great. IMO, even those that defend him know deep down that there is, AT LEAST, a reason to wonder about Raven. To those that still don't see the possibility, I wish them good luck.

[L L & S]

I think that this case is going to be largely circumstantial. Either that or they are going to use the circumstantial elements to bolster their case. There's a lot of mention of back-ups in the labs and that could be a part of it. Maybe they are waiting on the Google data to see if they can prove premeditation, as many have stated.

Raven's own story places him at home at 10:30. According to the autopsy, the onset of injury was about 10:50 and TOD was about 10:55. If Raven is the perp, he clearly had no idea how narrowly TOD could be determined.

I agree, Bobbisangel. Apparently we touched a nerve, and she came to yell and tell us all how she's in the know and we're not. I imagine that something like this has to be terribly painful for those that know the families. However, I think that people need to look at this with an open mind. If Raven is the perp, those that blindly defend him with nothing to back it up are equally at risk when it comes to dangerous people. You've got to be able to spot the warning signs. Even if Raven is somehow not the perp, there are just a ton of warning signs in him that he could be (is).

I personally will continue to look forward to Raven's arrest. I have no trouble considering other theories but virtually none have been put forward here. I'm not able to let family member's general statements about Raven's innocence sway my opinion. I guess the truth will come out in time. If he is not the perp, A LOT of people are going to be immeasurably shocked. If he is, I don't think that the shock will be nearly as great. IMO, even those that defend him know deep down that there is, AT LEAST, a reason to wonder about Raven. To those that still don't see the possibility, I wish them good luck.
Great Post JG, bet you all thought I fell off the face of the Earth. Well I didn't. As far as Raven is concerned... I too wish a family member or friend would come online and stay and give us something else to consider... do you think they are not coming around because they have nothing to base those claims of innocence on. They can't explain the timeline or the evidence so far... I don't konw. Even though I am leaning heavily toward Raven as the perp in this... I would be very interested in knowing who THEY think killed Janet.

[hoppyfrog]

There must be a reason that he hasn't been arrested yet so it must not be that simple. If LE could put Raven in the home before Janet was murdered they would have arrested him. There has to be a reason that he hasn't been arrested. I don't think this case is cut and dried...at least not in the eyes of LE.

Last night and this a.m. I've been thinking a lot about *exactly* the same thing that you wrote above.

Anyone want to seriously brainstorm the reasons why he hasn't been arrested? I'll start:

1. Murder weapon hasn't been located (that we know of)
2. Possible lack of blood evidence (per NC Banker's source in LE).
3. Lack of a solid motive (I know there's been speculation here, but we don't yet know if there were any life insurance policies or if he knew Janet was pregnant.)

You're welcome to add to the list.

Hoppy

[terminatrixator]

Last night and this a.m. I've been thinking a lot about *exactly* the same thing that you wrote above.

Anyone want to seriously brainstorm the reasons why he hasn't been arrested? I'll start:

1. Murder weapon hasn't been located (that we know of)
2. Possible lack of blood evidence (per NC Banker's source in LE).
3. Lack of a solid motive (I know there's been speculation here, but we don't yet know if there were any life insurance policies or if he knew Janet was pregnant.)

You're welcome to add to the list.

Hoppy
4. All the forensics have not come in yet - this process can take up to 6 months.
5. LE has not yet gone to the DA yet.
6. LE went to the DA and the DA has to go through the paperwork to draw up the charges.
6. Awaiting the extradition paperwork to go through.
7. Making sure all the I's and T's are dotted and crossed.

trix

[golfmom]

Determining premeditation

[radar]

I don't think Raven is the perpetrator of this crime. The weapon has not been found (that we know of). He would not have had time to dispose of the knife based on the timeline put forth.

[terminatrixator]

Ah, but you forget that he puts himself home at approximately 10:30 - she was hurt 10:50, deceased by 10:55 - he lives by a creek, in the time he supposedly took to go find the cell phone etc. he could have ditched that knife somehow, someway, or handed it off to an accomplice, by the time LE and Paramedics arrived. He was a soccer player, and at that time, I bet he was in a lot better shape than the chubby, balding dude is now! It wouldn't have been too hard on him, because back then, he had stamina and was actually in shape.

[Moxie]

I don't think Raven is the perpetrator of this crime. The weapon has not been found (that we know of). He would not have had time to dispose of the knife based on the timeline put forth.
Hi Radar,

Thank you for your insight. I'm not sure I understand the timeline?

Moxie

[radar]

Ah, but you forget that he puts himself home at approximately 10:30 - she was hurt 10:50, deceased by 10:55 - he lives by a creek, in the time he supposedly took to go find the cell phone etc. he could have ditched that knife somehow, someway, or handed it off to an accomplice, by the time LE and Paramedics arrived. He was a soccer player, and at that time, I bet he was in a lot better shape than the chubby, balding dude is now! It wouldn't have been too hard on him, because back then, he had stamina and was actually in shape.
The "creek" (or drainage ditch) was searched with no result.

[Jenifred]

The "creek" (or drainage ditch) was searched with no result.
How many times was the marina searched in the SP case? That proves nothing.

[terminatrixator]

Especially if the knife was bleached or sanitized in any way.

[radar]

How many times was the marina searched in the SP case? That proves nothing.
BIG difference.

[Jenifred]

BIG difference.
Okay, it was a big difference, but it just helps illustrate that a one time search is not enough.

[JerseyGirl]

The "creek" (or drainage ditch) was searched with no result.Please check out the area on the Terra Server satellite page. There are MANY lakes in the area, MANY creeks, MANY trees - all very close to the house on Ferrand Drive. If Janet was attacked at 10:50 and the 911 call wasn't made until 10:58, clearly there was more than enough time for Raven to bring that weapon somewhere before calling 911.

He probably didn't want to leave Kaiden alone for too long so decided to do this after soccer as opposed to before soccer. Then we hear about kissing the baby, turning Janet over, looking for cell phones - ALL of this, IMO, is just about giving himself enough time in the timeline to actually dispose of the weapon and still make the 911 call in a reasonable amount of time after returning home.

The more we dig, the more we see that Raven's story is falling apart. Not only did he place himself in the house PRIOR to TOD, the time that he said he arrived home was TWENTY-EIGHT MINUTES before 911 was called. 28 minutes!?!?!? Did it take him twenty-eight minutes to kiss the baby and find the cell phone? No, he went home, killed his wife, ran out to toss the weapon or to press it into the dirt somewhere, and then came home and called 911. (And if the attack was actually more like 10:40 or 10:45, that gave Raven even MORE time to dispose of the weapon before making the call.)

Again, check out the Terra Server images that are available around here on the forum somewhere. There are MORE than enough places nearby where Raven could have disposed of the weapon, still getting back in time to call 911 in a reasonable amount of time.

[radar]

September 16, 1986---Bill Wegerle returns home shortly before noon to have lunch. His wife's car is not in the driveway, their 2 year old boy child is sitting on the living room floor. Bill does a walk through but does not find his wife, he thinks she may have gone to the school where their daughter attends for some reason. Only after approximately 45 minutes does Bill finally find his wife's body in their bedroom. Bill was suspected of her murder but there was not enough evidence to make an arrest. Vicki Wegerle, BTK victim.

[JerseyGirl]

Okay radar. Let me ask you this. Throughout this forum, is there anything that you feel we're overlooking that might point to a reasonable theory other than Raven being the perp? I'm seriously asking as I'm seriously interested in learning the truth - whatever that might be. What existed in the circumstances or on the crime scene that we're not seeing?

Interesting story on the BTK victim. Was her husband having affairs? Were they experiencing financial hardship? Was she pregnant? Was her laptop missing? (Of course they didn't have a laptop back then but you get the idea.)

[LTUlegal]

4. All the forensics have not come in yet - this process can take up to 6 months.
5. LE has not yet gone to the DA yet.
6. LE went to the DA and the DA has to go through the paperwork to draw up the charges.
6. Awaiting the extradition paperwork to go through.
7. Making sure all the I's and T's are dotted and crossed.

trix
Hey, Trixie...
Don't forget the computer forensics subpoena'ed from Google...it's got to take a bit of time to go through that!

I think they're being thorough with this case so as to completely aleviate ALL reasonable doubt.

[LTUlegal]

:clap: Okay radar. Let me ask you this. Throughout this forum, is there anything that you feel we're overlooking that might point to a reasonable theory other than Raven being the perp? I'm seriously asking as I'm seriously interested in learning the truth - whatever that might be. What existed in the circumstances or on the crime scene that we're not seeing?

Interesting story on the BTK victim. Was her husband having affairs? Were they experiencing financial hardship? Was she pregnant? Was her laptop missing? (Of course they didn't have a laptop back then but you get the idea.)

[LTUlegal]

September 16, 1986---Bill Wegerle returns home shortly before noon to have lunch. His wife's car is not in the driveway, their 2 year old boy child is sitting on the living room floor. Bill does a walk through but does not find his wife, he thinks she may have gone to the school where their daughter attends for some reason. Only after approximately 45 minutes does Bill finally find his wife's body in their bedroom. Bill was suspected of her murder but there was not enough evidence to make an arrest. Vicki Wegerle, BTK victim.
Good point, Radar...which, by the way, you know is Rader's nickname in prison, don't you? :eek:
However, a couple of things to bring up...there doesn't appear to be a serial killer in that area, that's showing the same m.o. as Janet's murder. Raven was placed at the scene at the TIME OF DEATH. As JG said, have you SEEN how much water is in the area of that home? A little knife could be in the sludge at the bottom of a nearby body of water, of which there are MANY in that area.
Yes, please, give us examples of how it could be another perp & we'll steer our efforts that way, so far, no one's been able to give substantial credence to that theory.

[JerseyGirl]

September 16, 1986---Bill Wegerle returns home shortly before noon to have lunch. His wife's car is not in the driveway, their 2 year old boy child is sitting on the living room floor. Bill does a walk through but does not find his wife, he thinks she may have gone to the school where their daughter attends for some reason. Only after approximately 45 minutes does Bill finally find his wife's body in their bedroom. Bill was suspected of her murder but there was not enough evidence to make an arrest. Vicki Wegerle, BTK victim.A couple of key differences:

1) Bill Wegerle thought that his wife may have gone to their daughter's school. So during the time that he was assuming that, he probably wasn't actively wandering through the house.

2) Raven claims that he came home, kissed Kaiden, found Janet, and then ran around looking for the cell phones. I haven't heard about anything that he was supposedly doing in between these activities. How much time could it possibly take for him to park the car, get into the house (of course losing track of his cell phone somewhere along the way), walk up the stairs, kiss his son, and spot his wife on the floor of the room across the hall from Kaiden's room? Are you saying that it could have taken 28 minutes for Raven to do those things? I'm sorry ... I'm not seeing it.

[Bobbisangel]

Hey, Trixie...
Don't forget the computer forensics subpoena'ed from Google...it's got to take a bit of time to go through that!

I think they're being thorough with this case so as to completely aleviate ALL reasonable doubt.



What kind of stuff did they find on his computer?

[LTUlegal]

What kind of stuff did they find on his computer?
Laptop has not been located, that we know of.
They subpoenae'd Google's files on Raven's activity. Imagine having to go through the history of every page you've searched, every e-mail you've sent for just even 1 month. That's got to take some time.
So, what I was stating is to add to the list being compiled, we're still waiting on computer forensics to be done on the information they subpoenae'd from Google.

[hoppyfrog]

Raven's own story places him at home at 10:30. According to the autopsy, the onset of injury was about 10:50 and TOD was about 10:55. If Raven is the perp, he clearly had no idea how narrowly TOD could be determined.
Please don't be mad at me. <Hoppy kneels and begs for mercy> But can you point me to the place where it's reported that RA places himself at home at 10:30? I believe you. I really do. But I'm trying to refresh myself on some of the details. I've been combing through lots of posts, doing searches, rereading media reports, etc, and I can't find mention of the 10:30 time. Any help anyone can give me to locate this is *very* much appreciated.

Also, I missed the whole discussion/reports of the home teachers being at the A. residence that night. I was probably on vacation. Can anyone point me to those posts?

TIA,

Hoppy

[LTUlegal]

Please don't be mad at me. <Hoppy kneels and begs for mercy> But can you point me to the place where it's reported that RA places himself at home at 10:30? I believe you. I really do. But I'm trying to refresh myself on some of the details. I've been combing through lots of posts, doing searches, rereading media reports, etc, and I can't find mention of the 10:30 time. Any help anyone can give me to locate this is *very* much appreciated.

Also, I missed the whole discussion/reports of the home teachers being at the A. residence that night. I was probably on vacation. Can anyone point me to those posts?

TIA,

Hoppy
I, myself don't recall the exact information, and it's not something I'm hanging the ENTIRE case on. However, if you read this thread, it's got some info you might be looking for as well as the timeline thread.
Crime scene info thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23846&highlight=autopsy's

[ewwwinteresting]

Ah, but you forget that he puts himself home at approximately 10:30 - she was hurt 10:50, deceased by 10:55 - he lives by a creek, in the time he supposedly took to go find the cell phone etc. he could have ditched that knife somehow, someway, or handed it off to an accomplice, by the time LE and Paramedics arrived. He was a soccer player, and at that time, I bet he was in a lot better shape than the chubby, balding dude is now! It wouldn't have been too hard on him, because back then, he had stamina and was actually in shape.
Term, reading through yours and JG's posts, it made me think....why did raven tell LE he ran around looking for his cell phone??? I'm thinking raven was out of breath....breathing heavy.....sweaty.....on the 911 call and/or when LE arrived. His excuse? not running and hiding the murder weapon but running around looking for the cell phone!

[JerseyGirl]

Term, reading through yours and JG's posts, it made me think....why did raven tell LE he ran around looking for his cell phone??? I'm thinking raven was out of breath....breathing heavy.....sweaty.....on the 911 call and/or when LE arrived. His excuse? not running and hiding the murder weapon but running around looking for the cell phone!That's a very good point, EI - that he could have been breathless when placing the call. I personally think that the story about running around for the phones was to allow himself more time to dispose of the weapon before making the call. But that could still include him being breathless. Now, more than ever, I'd really like to hear the 911 call.

[JerseyGirl]

Please don't be mad at me. <Hoppy kneels and begs for mercy> But can you point me to the place where it's reported that RA places himself at home at 10:30?No kneeling and begging for mercy necessary! :)

I also don't remember where I heard that but hopefully the link provided earlier will give you something.

[radar]

September 16, 1986---Bill Wegerle returns home shortly before noon to have lunch. His wife's car is not in the driveway, their 2 year old boy child is sitting on the living room floor. Bill does a walk through but does not find his wife, he thinks she may have gone to the school where their daughter attends for some reason. Only after approximately 45 minutes does Bill finally find his wife's body in their bedroom. Bill was suspected of her murder but there was not enough evidence to make an arrest. Vicki Wegerle, BTK victim.
The only thing missing from the house was Vicki Wegerle's drivers license. LE never made a connection to BTK. Bill Wegerle was always a suspect. March 19, 2004 a letter containing a copy of the license was sent by BTK.

If speculation and rumors were the truth, Bill Wegerle would have probably been in prision long before March 19, 2004!

[Jess]

But Radar, it DIDN'T happen !! So what's the connect ? neither did it happen in the case in Markham, Ontario. Apples to oranges !!

[radar]

But Radar, it DIDN'T happen !! So what's the connect ? neither did it happen in the case in Markham, Ontario. Apples to oranges !!I see a man being slandered by speculation and rumors on this forum.

[Moxie]

I see a man being slandered by speculation and rumors on this forum.
Radar,

We appreciate your opinion, but I'm not sure how a man is being slandered on this website.

His behavior before the murder of his wife has been factually documented:

Adultery
Embezzlement
High Debts
Fired from Job
Separation from wife

His behavior since the murder of his wife has been factually documented as well:

Convicted of Felony Embezzlement
Left NC in a hurry
Fired from Job again
No public appeals to help find the murderer of his pregnant wife
Questionable trust fund

I'm sure I left some things off, however... It seems Raven by his actions has given us plenty to discuss without any possibility of slander.

[golfmom]

I haven't seen the Memorial Fund used as a reward for information leading to an arrest either.

[Moxie]

That's a very good point, EI - that he could have been breathless when placing the call. I personally think that the story about running around for the phones was to allow himself more time to dispose of the weapon before making the call. But that could still include him being breathless. Now, more than ever, I'd really like to hear the 911 call.
Can't we request the 911 call as a matter of public record?

[Jenifred]

I see a man being slandered by speculation and rumors on this forum.
I don't see any solid evidence pointing away from Raven!

[BirdHunter]

I see a man being slandered by speculation and rumors on this forum.That's funny, I don't even see a MAN. Just a sniveling coward who thinks of only himself and wouldn't know the truth if it slapped him upside the head.

[Justgimmethetruth]

Radar is just trying to be objective. LE has not given one ounce of information that would lead anyone to think Raven is guilty or not guilty. They don't have any suspects and they haven't done anything on this case in months. If they were sure it was Raven, why have they let him go for so long???

[BirdHunter]

Radar is just trying to be objective. LE has not given one ounce of information that would lead anyone to think Raven is guilty or not guilty. They don't have any suspects and they haven't done anything on this case in months. If they were sure it was Raven, why have they let him go for so long???Really?!?!?! And you know this how?!?!?!

[BirdHunter]

Oh, I know, its because the Durham police haven't called you up personally and said, "Hey let me give you the truth on this murder case."

[ewwwinteresting]

:laugh: Oh, I know, its because the Durham police haven't called you up personally and said, "Hey let me give you the truth on this murder case."
You are on a roll BH!!

[ewwwinteresting]

Radar is just trying to be objective. LE has not given one ounce of information that would lead anyone to think Raven is guilty or not guilty. They don't have any suspects and they haven't done anything on this case in months. If they were sure it was Raven, why have they let him go for so long???
JGMTT: LE has done the following:

1. Stated the crime wasn't raven
2. Not clearing raven as a suspect or even a POI
3. Received a search warrant to search raven's house, auto, and clothes he was wearing
4. Has interviewed raven and received another seach warrant for the Durango
5. Subpoenad raven's goggle account

IMO, LE has stated who they are looking at for this crime.

[ewwwinteresting]

I don't see any solid evidence pointing away from Raven!
OR any circumstancial evidence....nothing....nada.....just two people saying....oh, but raven IS innocent. I just know it. They post once and leave. They offer nothing. IMO, they don't KNOW he's innocent, they HOPE he's innocent.

[L L & S]

Oh, I know, its because the Durham police haven't called you up personally and said, "Hey let me give you the truth on this murder case."
LMAO, smack-down! That was pretty good there BirdHunter, welcome aboard.

[hoppyfrog]

I, myself don't recall the exact information, and it's not something I'm hanging the ENTIRE case on. However, if you read this thread, it's got some info you might be looking for as well as the timeline thread.
Crime scene info thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23846&highlight=autopsy's
I read through both threads you mentioned and found nothing about RA placing himself home at 10:30.

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

Can't we request the 911 call as a matter of public record?
I've wondered that too. My guess is that if LE says releasing it at this point would impede their investigation, they don't have to release it.

Hoppy

[JustJax]

I read through both threads you mentioned and found nothing about RA placing himself home at 10:30.

HoppyThere are many many threads and posts....you may need to do your own research......;)

[JustJax]

I've wondered that too. My guess is that if LE says releasing it at this point would impede their investigation, they don't have to release it.

HoppyMy guess is that your guess is an educated one.....:cool:
There may be details in a 9-11 call that would describe a crime scene, time line, etc. that would need to be kept within the confides of the investigation until it's conclusion.

[ewwwinteresting]

I've wondered that too. My guess is that if LE says releasing it at this point would impede their investigation, they don't have to release it.

Hoppy
Which is why we don't have alot to go on. If LE is keeping all of their cards, I can't help speculate that they know who, when, how, and are now working on why...

[hoppyfrog]

There are many many threads and posts....you may need to do your own research......;)
I've been doing hours of research. Can't find it anywhere. Not in any thread or in any media reports. Nada. *That's* why I'm asking for help.

Hoppy

[hoppyfrog]

My guess is that your guess is an educated one.....:cool:

I guess I'll take that as a compliment.:)

Hoppy

[LTUlegal]

I've been doing hours of research. Can't find it anywhere. Not in any thread or in any media reports. Nada. *That's* why I'm asking for help.

Hoppy
I finally recalled where I remembered that information, and it was from Rooster. But it appears that post was deleted or edited. I've searched all his posts and it's not there anymore...perhaps Rooster put himself a little too close to the situation & thought better of it. Perhaps someone's attorney told him to shut the f up.

[terminatrixator]

Information from the search warrant:

Search warrant issu