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Maral
09-24-2005, 03:28 PM
Link (http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5631487.html)

For years, Michael Schiavo says, he refused to believe that his wife, Terri, was in a vegetative state. Every day, he would insist that someone put on her makeup, and brush her hair, just the way she used to.

"I was going to bring my wife home," he said Friday. "And we were going to get on with our lives."

By now, almost everyone knows how the story turned out.

But for the first time since his wife's death six months ago, Michael Schiavo publicly shared his side of the ordeal that captivated the nation.

More at link

Jules
09-24-2005, 03:52 PM
I believe he did the right thing. That's all I'm saying. :D ;) :silenced:

Linda7NJ
09-24-2005, 05:33 PM
I believe everyone should have a living will to ensure their wishes are respected. Terri did not, any blame for the legal wrangling was her fault.

Amraann
09-24-2005, 05:43 PM
Thank you Marel for posting that link.

My own heart about stopped when I read the article as I know indirectly someone quoited and I just want to say that if that said person was so concerned about life she would have been a better mother and her own son would possibly now be with his wife and child rather then deceased.

Sorry to take it off topic but I just think that when reading in the media the source should be considered and I can tell you first hand that source is a flake cake.

mic730
09-24-2005, 09:22 PM
I don't plan to buy or read this book, Mark Furmans or any other book written about this case. I don't know who to believe or who not to believe and I am going to leave it there as I doubt any book will shed light on the truth.
I just don't think anyone not her family, not him, or anyone else should make money off what became a war in the media. IMO!
But if ya'll read the books and post about them I will read the posts!

Beyond Belief
09-24-2005, 10:19 PM
I wouldn't purchase any books on Terri. I don't think anyone has a right to "cash in" on her story.

But of course, I too will read any comments here on ws.

Jules
09-24-2005, 10:20 PM
I wouldn't purchase any books on Terri. I don't think anyone has a right to "cash in" on her story.

But of course, I too will read any comments here on ws.

I do agree with this as well. Let her rest in peace.

scandi
09-24-2005, 11:21 PM
Hi,

Sorry guys, but I'm a bit of a conservative on this case.

I know she had every test after she was deceased, but there is absolutely nothing that tells me he did not injure her on the night she fell ill, and did cause her infirmity.

I think he is just beyond belief that what he did actually caused another human being to be laid so low, as to live in a vegetative state for years, her brain continually turning to liquid, while he watched and pronounced his innocence in any act of wrong doing.

Too bad he never was made to answer to the law. He will have to answer to his maker!



Scandi

Details
09-25-2005, 01:42 AM
I believe everyone should have a living will to ensure their wishes are respected. Terri did not, any blame for the legal wrangling was her fault.She was in her 20's! No 20 year old ever thinks they'll need a living will - and almost none of them ever do. That goes double 15 years ago - living wills still aren't that common. The lack of one shouldn't condemn Terri - nor anyone else - to a living death. I still don't have one - I trust my family and husband to honor my wishes.



Oh, and there have been plenty of investigations, all of which have found nothing at all suggesting Michael Schiavo harmed Terri - ever. He went above and beyond when this first happened, getting her experimental treatments and every possible advantage. The poor guy has been demonized and called horrible names because he fought to honor his wife's wishes. I've got a great deal of respect for that - he could have been a millionaire and avoided a ton of the slander and harassment and death threats - but he turned down multiple offers of money to honor his wife's wishes.

I'd do the same for my husband - the exact and precise same. Try to save him, but fight for his right to die once I knew it was hopeless - even if his parents fell in with quacks and extremists and wanted desperately to keep his corpse breathing. Michael respected Terri's wishes - and since it was her body, that is all that mattered.

redeskimo
09-25-2005, 02:35 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: Hi,

Sorry guys, but I'm a bit of a conservative on this case.

I know she had every test after she was deceased, but there is absolutely nothing that tells me he did not injure her on the night she fell ill, and did cause her infirmity.

I think he is just beyond belief that what he did actually caused another human being to be laid so low, as to live in a vegetative state for years, her brain continually turning to liquid, while he watched and pronounced his innocence in any act of wrong doing.

Too bad he never was made to answer to the law. He will have to answer to his maker!



Scandi

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Being left to die of thirst , such a painfull death , and now he say's he loved her. I just hope I will never be loved like this . :(

Bobbisangel
09-25-2005, 02:45 AM
As far as I am concerned he can take HIS story and shove it where the sun don't shine. I get angry even hearing this creeps name :furious: That is how I feel and that is my opinion of this jerk :furious:

Gabby
09-25-2005, 09:06 AM
As far as I am concerned he can take HIS story and shove it where the sun don't shine. I get angry even hearing this creeps name :furious: That is how I feel and that is my opinion of this jerk :furious:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Linda7NJ
09-25-2005, 09:51 AM
She was in her 20's! No 20 year old ever thinks they'll need a living will - and almost none of them ever do. That goes double 15 years ago - living wills still aren't that common. The lack of one shouldn't condemn Terri - nor anyone else - to a living death. I still don't have one - I trust my family and husband to honor my wishes.



Oh, and there have been plenty of investigations, all of which have found nothing at all suggesting Michael Schiavo harmed Terri - ever. He went above and beyond when this first happened, getting her experimental treatments and every possible advantage. The poor guy has been demonized and called horrible names because he fought to honor his wife's wishes. I've got a great deal of respect for that - he could have been a millionaire and avoided a ton of the slander and harassment and death threats - but he turned down multiple offers of money to honor his wife's wishes.

I'd do the same for my husband - the exact and precise same. Try to save him, but fight for his right to die once I knew it was hopeless - even if his parents fell in with quacks and extremists and wanted desperately to keep his corpse breathing. Michael respected Terri's wishes - and since it was her body, that is all that mattered.
This story brought the issue to the nations attention, I am thankful for that. You are right many people don't like to contemplate their own death, despite the fact that every single last one of them will die.
I've had a living will since I was 19 years old, I believe it to be selfish not to. Without your wishes in writing you may force an unwanted emotional burden on your family members. All it takes is one to disagree.
By having a living will you could ensure your wishes will be followed and remove that burden from your family.

Details
09-25-2005, 03:57 PM
This story brought the issue to the nations attention, I am thankful for that. You are right many people don't like to contemplate their own death, despite the fact that every single last one of them will die.
I've had a living will since I was 19 years old, I believe it to be selfish not to. Without your wishes in writing you may force an unwanted emotional burden on your family members. All it takes is one to disagree.
By having a living will you could ensure your wishes will be followed and remove that burden from your family.Nothing removes that burden - there are so many edge cases, so many times when, as in this case, a quack can offer false hope that will be believed no matter how many real doctors tell the truth. A desperate family member who doesn't want something to happen can sieze on a million excuses - that she didn't read the living will before signing; "I know Jane Doe, and she would never have wanted this"; this condition is still treatable, so it doesn't fit the living will conditions... etc.

If Terri had a living will, it wouldn't have made a difference to her parents - they said so. And it wouldn't have made the decisions any easier, because no doubt the living will would have said something about letting her go if she was in a permanent coma and left out PVS; or even if PVS was listed, the quacks make her parents think she's not in a PVS - so the problem continues. I'm confident my parents and my husband know my position, so I'm not too worried. Although, I am a decision maker listed on a friends living will - I may someday be in the position to make that decision (her parents are old - one dead, one Altzheimers; divorced so no husband; sisters are a bit far away and have troubles of their own, so me and my sister make the decision for her if it has to be made - we are her former step-daughters).

But I think when the decision maker approved by law (my husband, followed by my parents if he were dead) is someone you trust to make the choices for you - it's just not necessary to make a formal living will. Maybe I'm careless here - but I don't think that should be an excuse to force me into some miserable living death; to deny my friends and family the closure of having it all over rather than having a living corpse to cling to. A living will is a good thing, definitely, but it shouldn't be the only way; shouldn't be required to cease hopeless care.

If you die without a will, your belongings are not confiscated - they are given to the most likely correct person automatically. If you have medical trouble without a living will, I think the same type of action is appropriate - and that is what happens now in this country, by law.

lynie
09-25-2005, 11:46 PM
She was in her 20's! No 20 year old ever thinks they'll need a living will - and almost none of them ever do. That goes double 15 years ago - living wills still aren't that common. The lack of one shouldn't condemn Terri - nor anyone else - to a living death. I still don't have one - I trust my family and husband to honor my wishes.



Oh, and there have been plenty of investigations, all of which have found nothing at all suggesting Michael Schiavo harmed Terri - ever. He went above and beyond when this first happened, getting her experimental treatments and every possible advantage. The poor guy has been demonized and called horrible names because he fought to honor his wife's wishes. I've got a great deal of respect for that - he could have been a millionaire and avoided a ton of the slander and harassment and death threats - but he turned down multiple offers of money to honor his wife's wishes.

I'd do the same for my husband - the exact and precise same. Try to save him, but fight for his right to die once I knew it was hopeless - even if his parents fell in with quacks and extremists and wanted desperately to keep his corpse breathing. Michael respected Terri's wishes - and since it was her body, that is all that mattered.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Amraann
09-26-2005, 02:05 AM
OK I am going to throw this out here as the devils advocate......



I have a disabled child so I am aware of the rights he has, and should have.

But at the age of 25 I also had to decide if my mother should be kept alive or not via machines...

And in that experience I learned it was not about her it was about those alive and how they deal with it.
It was not about her wishes but about what other people wanted..
My dad wanted me to make sure she did not die on xmas or a week later on my sisters bday.
Her friends actually called the hospital and tried to lie and say thye were related. To the extent that they tried to supercede me by saying they were her new hubby.

So IMO much of this debate was not about that person as so much as about those not willing to let go.
Everyone debated those millions that micheal "won"... after about 10 months in a hospital in a coma those funds are gone.
WHy keep her alive and make tax payers pay?
I am sad at the judgement going on here.
The concept that an eating disorder was the cause is so not out of bounds...

Jeana (DP)
09-26-2005, 04:15 PM
I'm not sure if Michael did anything to cause her condition or not. All I know to be true is that she had rotting teeth inside her mouth that could have been taken care of and things of that nature. If he cared about her enough to see to it that "her wishes" were carried out, that's fine. I just don't see why she had to be neglected during that time period.

mic730
09-26-2005, 04:18 PM
OK I am going to throw this out here as the devils advocate......



I have a disabled child so I am aware of the rights he has, and should have.

But at the age of 25 I also had to decide if my mother should be kept alive or not via machines...

And in that experience I learned it was not about her it was about those alive and how they deal with it.
It was not about her wishes but about what other people wanted..
My dad wanted me to make sure she did not die on xmas or a week later on my sisters bday.
Her friends actually called the hospital and tried to lie and say thye were related. To the extent that they tried to supercede me by saying they were her new hubby.

So IMO much of this debate was not about that person as so much as about those not willing to let go.
Everyone debated those millions that micheal "won"... after about 10 months in a hospital in a coma those funds are gone.
WHy keep her alive and make tax payers pay?
I am sad at the judgement going on here.
The concept that an eating disorder was the cause is so not out of bounds...

I totally agree you Mary Kate.

HeartofTexas
09-26-2005, 11:27 PM
Some of you stated you wouldn't mind reading some excerpts from books re Michael Schiavo, so I'm bringing some quotes from Mark Fuhrman's book from another forum to this one. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on what Fuhrman's opinion was.


Excerpts taken from the book "Silent Witness" by Mark Fuhrman.

"My experience is that the recollections of family members who discover loved ones dead or injured are usually very accurate. They remember vivid details that remain with them for the rest of their lives." (page 186)

"He was the first one to see her. Instead of being vivid and accurate, his recollections are vague, contradictory, and sometimes nonsensical. The story changes every time he tells it."

"Michael's only consistent recollection from the early morning hours of February 25, 1990, is the sound of Terri falling to the floor, which he consistently describes as a thud. Why does he remember this detail, while everything else is vauge or contradictory? Whether or not he committed a criminal act, I believe Michael witnessed Terri falling. And he has never forgotten that." (page 186-187)

"When a detective team is working a case, they will often sit down, over coffee in the morning or beer at night, and think outside of the box, tossing around ideas that sometimes sound ridiculous, sometimes are ridiculous, and sometimes wind up solving the case." (page 192)

"If you are someone who talks to yourself while engaged in an important task, you will understand. This is just a detective talking out loud, in the hope that by hearing his own words, the facts that he already knows backward and forward, will fit into some pattern that resembles the truth as it occurred. (page 192)

"Cops might have more technologically advanced investigative resources at their disposal, but criminals haven't changed. The suspects we are chasing today are no different from the ones my training officers were chasing thirty years ago. They do the same stupid things, lie about the same obvious evidence, and usually talk themselves into jail more often than not. Suspects make mistakes, and they all think they will get away with the crime." (page 203)

"When people who have the most control over and around the victim begin to change simple and innocent statements, or for some reason can't remember a simple fact, such as the time when they discovered their wife, they become a suspect." (page 204)

"A suspect who does not have a criminal history has one significant disadvantage. He does not know how to act, either as a grieving husband or as a murderer." (page 205)

"At the same as the suspect puts on his act, he also has to be careful when describing his actions and observations. Most other suspects do not want to place themselves at the crime scene. This suspect lives there. Most other suspects don't want to have any connection to the victim. This suspect was married to her." (page 205)

"But suspects often try to answer questions they don't or couldn't know the answers to in order to throw off suspicion. In their guilty minds, they need to account for everything. They think the more they tell the detective, the more the dumb cop is likely to be satisfied, and they will escape suspicion. (page 207)

"The husband's actions were consistent with the behavior of middle-class suspects in domestic homicides. Call someone early to establish urgency, panic, and stop the time. Have them assist at the scene, which is supposedly pristine. Fail to assist the victim." (page 208)

"Detective bureaus all over the country have cases like this. Some of them are eventually solved; many are not. Domestic homicides are usually solved by quick identification of the suspect and his or her immediate commitment to the story. (page 208)
__________________

lisag
09-27-2005, 09:11 AM
Mr Schaivo is a,..... He is ...... He can. .......

Nevermind, I don't want a time out again.

:banghead: :banghead: :furious: :furious:

Jules
09-27-2005, 09:33 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Mr Schaivo is a,..... He is ...... He can. .......

Nevermind, I don't want a time out again.

:banghead: :banghead: :furious: :furious:

While we disagree on this subject, I did have to laugh at your post. :D It did get a bit heated on the other forum, didn't it? :innocent: :angel: ;)

lisag
09-27-2005, 09:34 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



While we disagree on this subject, I did have to laugh at your post. :D It did get a bit heated on the other forum, didn't it? :innocent: :angel: ;)


Just a lilttle..... :innocent:

Jules
09-27-2005, 09:36 AM
Just a lilttle..... :innocent:

:blowkiss: :blowkiss:

Cupcake
09-27-2005, 09:54 AM
I have no interest in anything Michael Shiavo has to say.

IdahoMom
09-27-2005, 09:54 AM
I agree lisag and Cupcake! :angel: :angel:

AlwaysHope
09-27-2005, 10:45 AM
I personally would have done what Michael did... He did all he could for his wife... Her parents, like anyones want to believe and hold on forever... What kind of life did Terri have? I am 24 and i had a living will drawn up about 3 years ago. I have also told my family my wishes, but i also have it in legal document form.

lisag
09-27-2005, 10:49 AM
I agree lisag and Cupcake! :angel: :angel:


;)
:blowkiss:

Jules
09-27-2005, 10:56 AM
I personally would have done what Michael did... He did all he could for his wife... Her parents, like anyones want to believe and hold on forever... What kind of life did Terri have? I am 24 and i had a living will drawn up about 3 years ago. I have also told my family my wishes, but i also have it in legal document form.

Good for you AH. We've done the same thing. Not something you want to have to think about, but best to be prepared and have things taken care of shoudl something happen.

Jules
09-28-2005, 10:39 AM
Oh Lisa..... :D :silenced:

Schiavo's family announces books

TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings are writing a book about their struggle in the epic end-of-life case that divided the country and captured the attention of everyone from the Pope John Paul II to President Bush.

The yet untitled memoir by parents Bob and Mary Schindler, brother Bobby Schindler and sister Suzanne Vitadamo will be published by in March to coincide with the first anniversary of the death of the brain-damaged woman, whose feeding tube was removed after her husband, Michael Schiavo, won a court order to do so.

"This book is the moving story of an ordinary family caught up in extraordinary circumstances," Jamie Raab, senior vice president and publisher at Warner Books, said Tuesday. Warner Books is a division of Time Warner, as is CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/09/28/schiavo.book.ap/index.html

Gabby
09-28-2005, 12:44 PM
Oh Lisa..... :D :silenced:

Schiavo's family announces books

TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings are writing a book about their struggle in the epic end-of-life case that divided the country and captured the attention of everyone from the Pope John Paul II to President Bush.

The yet untitled memoir by parents Bob and Mary Schindler, brother Bobby Schindler and sister Suzanne Vitadamo will be published by in March to coincide with the first anniversary of the death of the brain-damaged woman, whose feeding tube was removed after her husband, Michael Schiavo, won a court order to do so.

"This book is the moving story of an ordinary family caught up in extraordinary circumstances," Jamie Raab, senior vice president and publisher at Warner Books, said Tuesday. Warner Books is a division of Time Warner, as is CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/09/28/schiavo.book.ap/index.html



This is one book that I would love to read...

Jules
09-28-2005, 12:45 PM
This is one book that I would love to read...

I'd say I'd loan you my copy, but I won't be buying it. ;) :angel:

For the record, I won't be buying Michael's or Fuhrman's either. :snooty: :silenced:

Gabby
09-28-2005, 12:59 PM
I'd say I'd loan you my copy, but I won't be buying it. ;) :angel:

For the record, I won't be buying Michael's or Fuhrman's either. :snooty: :silenced:


That's ok Jules.... my bd. is in April Looks like it will go on my BD list. :D

lisag
09-28-2005, 01:00 PM
Oh Lisa..... :D :silenced:

Schiavo's family announces books

TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings are writing a book about their struggle in the epic end-of-life case that divided the country and captured the attention of everyone from the Pope John Paul II to President Bush.

The yet untitled memoir by parents Bob and Mary Schindler, brother Bobby Schindler and sister Suzanne Vitadamo will be published by in March to coincide with the first anniversary of the death of the brain-damaged woman, whose feeding tube was removed after her husband, Michael Schiavo, won a court order to do so.

"This book is the moving story of an ordinary family caught up in extraordinary circumstances," Jamie Raab, senior vice president and publisher at Warner Books, said Tuesday. Warner Books is a division of Time Warner, as is CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/09/28/schiavo.book.ap/index.html

Good for them !!

Jules, you dont want to fight already, do you ?? :banghead:

Jules
09-28-2005, 01:02 PM
Jules, you dont want to fight already, do you ?? :banghead:

I busted out laughing when I came across that article this morning. :laugh: I just knew you'd comment! :slap:

:crazy:

Nope, no fighting. I'm gonna do this :silenced:

lisag
09-28-2005, 01:05 PM
I busted out laughing when I came across that article this morning. :laugh: I just knew you'd comment! :slap:

:crazy:

Nope, no fighting. I'm gonna do this :silenced:


You like taunting me don't you !! :crazy:

Silly girl !!

Ntegrity
09-28-2005, 01:10 PM
I'd like to read the Schindler family's book and will probably buy it. I'd also like to read Schiavo's book but refuse to spend a plug nickel on it.

Gabby
09-28-2005, 01:23 PM
I'd like to read the Schindler family's book and will probably buy it. I'd also like to read Schiavo's book but refuse to spend a plug nickel on it.



Ditto

Jules
09-28-2005, 01:23 PM
:D ;)

You like taunting me don't you !! :crazy:

Silly girl !!

Details
09-28-2005, 01:27 PM
I'm not interested in what the Schindlers have to say - except maybe as a psychological/sociological study of what went wrong with them.

I don't know that I'll read Schiavo's book - but I'll buy it. I hope he makes a ton of money - not that it'll pay for what was done to him - but it's something anyway.

lisag
09-28-2005, 01:47 PM
I'm not interested in what the Schindlers have to say - except maybe as a psychological/sociological study of what went wrong with them.

I don't know that I'll read Schiavo's book - but I'll buy it. I hope he makes a ton of money - not that it'll pay for what was done to him - but it's something anyway.


Yea, poor Michael.... :doh: :bang:

Ok.. Backing out of this thread now....

Jules
09-28-2005, 02:06 PM
Ok.. Backing out of this thread now....

Leaving with ya! :silenced: :silenced: :silenced:

jannuncutt
09-28-2005, 03:43 PM
I'm not interested in what the Schindlers have to say - except maybe as a psychological/sociological study of what went wrong with them.

I don't know that I'll read Schiavo's book - but I'll buy it. I hope he makes a ton of money - not that it'll pay for what was done to him - but it's something anyway.
I am on the same page - with you. We already know the Schlinders side of the story. What could possibly be new? Schiavo was certainly villianized. IMO, he did the right thing, and he did it with class. I will probably read his book.

Jules
09-28-2005, 03:45 PM
IMO, he did the right thing, and he did it with class.

:clap: :clap:

Marthatex
09-28-2005, 05:51 PM
This is a case people will never agree on.

I might read his book simply because he didn't say much and I'd like to know if it gives us any more information. I probably wouldn't want to pay for it tho', maybe it'll be in the library. I doubt that either book would be too objective.

The document needed is: Directive to Physicians and Family or Surrogates.

It is as much a contract with your physician as with your family members - just lets everyone know your medical wishes in case of terminal or irreversible condition.

They say everyone should have one, and your physician should have a copy on file.

lisag
09-28-2005, 08:44 PM
:clap: :clap:

:razz: :sick:

Jules
09-28-2005, 09:08 PM
:slap: :snooty:

:razz: :sick:

Lili
09-28-2005, 11:24 PM
IMO Michael did the right thing. I hope he can move on with his life now in peace.

IMO Terri did not die a painful death of "thirst." She died of dehydration and was not in pain. I watch as my m-i-l passed away recently under similar circumstances. She died peacefully as she slept.

Jules
09-29-2005, 07:02 AM
IMO Michael did the right thing. I hope he can move on with his life now in peace.

IMO Terri did not die a painful death of "thirst." She died of dehydration and was not in pain. I watch as my m-i-l passed away recently under similar circumstances. She died peacefully as she slept.

Lili, I agree with your post and sorry to hear about your MIL's passing.

The doctors have also said Terri did not die a painful death. Hopefully she is finally at peace and ALL involved can move on.

deanws
09-30-2005, 11:56 AM
Michael treated her parent's horrible. The funeral stunt was the last straw. I think this man is very crude and insensitive.:slap:

lisag
09-30-2005, 12:53 PM
Michael treated her parent's horrible. The funeral stunt was the last straw. I think this man is very crude and insensitive.:slap:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Jules
09-30-2005, 01:00 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

:razz: :sick:

:innocent:

lisag
09-30-2005, 01:06 PM
:razz: :sick:

:innocent:


blah blah blah blah blah......

jessie harris
09-30-2005, 02:20 PM
I think he did the only humane thing left to do, the circus surrounding her death was despicable, she should have been allowed to cease to live with dignity, she wasn't alive, any part of her that was Terry had gone years before,

Ntegrity
09-30-2005, 03:01 PM
I think the way she died was inhumane. If we're gonna put people to death, we should give them a lethal injection and call it what it is (euthanasia!). Suffering for nearly 14 days without food or water doesn't sound like death with dignity. When someone's dying, they may reject food and water as part of the process. Problem is, Terri wasn't dying until nourishment was denied.

sandraladeda
09-30-2005, 04:44 PM
Michael treated her parent's horrible. The funeral stunt was the last straw. I think this man is very crude and insensitive.:slap:They had treated him like crap in many different ways before the funeral came up. And I don't consider it a "stunt" so much as Schiavo's desire to keep her funeral quiet and dignified. Sadly, the Schindlers would not have simply shown up quietly to mourn and pay their last respects, they would have had their entourage of activists and the media in tow. Schiavo knew this and I commend him for preventing a circus.

imho

vanillasky
09-30-2005, 04:46 PM
If someone treated my daughter the way he did, I would treat him like crap too. I'm glad the Schiavo's had the media, it certainly helped to expose this travesty.

Details
09-30-2005, 05:07 PM
Michael treated her parent's horrible. The funeral stunt was the last straw. I think this man is very crude and insensitive.:slap:Michael was far more tolerant of them than I would be. When someone calls me a murderer, publishes lies about me that cause me and my family to get death threats, and disrespects my spouses wishes - that is horrible treatment. They deserved no consideration from Michael, and they got far more than they deserved - he buried her where they wanted rather than where he wanted.

All along, Michael was there for her - visited far more than her parents thorughout the entire ordeal. I'm much more interested in what he has to say about all this. The Schindlers were caught in too many blatant lies and far too interested in turning Terri's life into a circus for me to care what they say.

Jules
09-30-2005, 05:22 PM
Michael was far more tolerant of them than I would be. When someone calls me a murderer, publishes lies about me that cause me and my family to get death threats, and disrespects my spouses wishes - that is horrible treatment. They deserved no consideration from Michael, and they got far more than they deserved - he buried her where they wanted rather than where he wanted.

I've said that all along too.

As I've also said, somewhere along the line this turned into a Michael/Schindler thing rather than all about Terri - as it should have been.

deanws
09-30-2005, 07:15 PM
If someone treated my daughter the way he did, I would treat him like crap too. I'm glad the Schiavo's had the media, it certainly helped to expose this travesty.And watching him shack up with someone, all the while saying he had Terri's best interest at heart!?!!? Yeah, right. Yep....poor excuse for a man.

concernedperson
09-30-2005, 07:20 PM
Michael Schiavo is no hero. He is an opportunist in my book.He realized early on and tried to take advantage of the system. I am all for living wills but this wasn't his MO. He was not a caring person he was looking for advantage. JMO.

Bobbisangel
10-03-2005, 06:07 AM
Oh Lisa..... :D :silenced:

Schiavo's family announces books

TAMPA, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings are writing a book about their struggle in the epic end-of-life case that divided the country and captured the attention of everyone from the Pope John Paul II to President Bush.

The yet untitled memoir by parents Bob and Mary Schindler, brother Bobby Schindler and sister Suzanne Vitadamo will be published by in March to coincide with the first anniversary of the death of the brain-damaged woman, whose feeding tube was removed after her husband, Michael Schiavo, won a court order to do so.

"This book is the moving story of an ordinary family caught up in extraordinary circumstances," Jamie Raab, senior vice president and publisher at Warner Books, said Tuesday. Warner Books is a division of Time Warner, as is CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/09/28/schiavo.book.ap/index.html



Once in paperback I would buy both the book by Mark Furhman and Terri's family.

Bobbisangel
10-03-2005, 06:15 AM
Yea, poor Michael.... :doh: :bang:

Ok.. Backing out of this thread now....


One long term girlfriend...two kids...and all but $50,000 of the money the courts deemed to be used for Terri's rehab later...Yep..Poor Michael :boohoo:

Bobbisangel
10-03-2005, 06:28 AM
I hope he can move on with his life now in peace.




Seems to me that he moved on a long time ago. How many girlfriends before the long term girlfriend and TWO KIDS?...Tells me that this guy was doing quite a bit of MOVING. He harped about being married and how he loved Terri BUT in my book living with another woman and fathering two children with her is called ADULTERY...not love... no matter how you slice it. Terri wouldn't have known he got a divorce...if he had...gosh, I wonder what was holding him back. Could it have been those big bucks for Terri's rehab that he was spending trying to get her feeding tube removed? I'll bet quite a few of those bucks lined his pockets. JMO

Gabby
10-03-2005, 08:12 AM
If someone treated my daughter the way he did, I would treat him like crap too. I'm glad the Schiavo's had the media, it certainly helped to expose this travesty.



Simon

I agree with you 100% Michael is a piece of horse puckey....IMO and when he is burning in HELL I hope he remembers breaking his vows ...

lisag
10-03-2005, 08:55 AM
Simon

I agree with you 100% Michael is a piece of horse puckey....IMO and when he is burning in HELL I hope he remembers breaking his vows ...


EXACTLY !!

mjak
10-03-2005, 09:04 AM
This "case" bothers me. I put the word case in quotes because that is what bothers me the most. It is not a case but a family tragedy. One which we
outsiders in my opinion have no business passing judgment on. We got to see a snapshot of what was a very very long family tragedy which this family had to struggle with. I feel I am in no way in a postion to pass any kind of judgment on Mr Schavio or Terri's parents. I am sorry the either one of them is writng a book. It would be better if they worked together to compile one huge legal documentation of what they went through so we can learn from there terrible experience. This family tragedy never belonged on display for public viewing. Poor Terri who's life was much to short then her tragedy put on display for the world to see. There is so much we can learn from this familys tragedy but that learning should come from reading legal documentation and not seeing Terri exploted on " a current affair" or in a paperback next to the Warner classics at Barnes & Noble.

mjak

SewingDeb
10-03-2005, 09:08 AM
I think the way she died was inhumane. If we're gonna put people to death, we should give them a lethal injection and call it what it is (euthanasia!). Suffering for nearly 14 days without food or water doesn't sound like death with dignity. When someone's dying, they may reject food and water as part of the process. Problem is, Terri wasn't dying until nourishment was denied.

I agree with you Ntegrity.

Jules
10-03-2005, 09:26 AM
This is a case that people will never agree on. It is not a case that has a "gray" area - it's either black or white. We could keep this thread going for years and still have the same feelings. No one can type anything on this thread that will make me change my mind on how I view this case. I'm sure others feel exactly the same way.

For Terri's sake, I think it'd be nice to turn the attention to her and let her rest in peace. There is nothing either side can write in a book that will change the facts of what happened to her.

JMO...

partyuv5
10-03-2005, 10:46 AM
we can't bring her back. What is done is done. let it go!

KrazyKollector
10-03-2005, 11:08 AM
Well, since the only ones quoted were a Brother O'Donnell and a Janice Sanford (besides the usual ones), do you care to elaborate?



Thank you Marel for posting that link.

My own heart about stopped when I read the article as I know indirectly someone quoited and I just want to say that if that said person was so concerned about life she would have been a better mother and her own son would possibly now be with his wife and child rather then deceased.

Sorry to take it off topic but I just think that when reading in the media the source should be considered and I can tell you first hand that source is a flake cake.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 11:23 AM
I am on the same page - with you. We already know the Schlinders side of the story. What could possibly be new? Schiavo was certainly villianized. IMO, he did the right thing, and he did it with class. I will probably read his book.
Me too.

My question to the folks who think Michael is so horrible...what if it were YOU. What if what happened to Terri happened to YOU. Would you want to stay in a vegitative state for years upon years, have your poor drooling face that used to be so beautiful plastered all over the news? I personally don't believe Michael had anything to do with her collapse...but even if he did? She STILL shouldn't have been kept alive artificially for so long. And if he did, why in the world would he stand by her so long? I just don't see the logic in the argument.

Gabby
10-03-2005, 12:50 PM
Me too.

My question to the folks who think Michael is so horrible...what if it were YOU. What if what happened to Terri happened to YOU. Would you want to stay in a vegitative state for years upon years, have your poor drooling face that used to be so beautiful plastered all over the news? I personally don't believe Michael had anything to do with her collapse...but even if he did? She STILL shouldn't have been kept alive artificially for so long. And if he did, why in the world would he stand by her so long? I just don't see the logic in the argument.


Adultry, being hateful to the parents who WANTED to continue taking care of her.. If it were me, I would expect that there be NO OTHER WOMAN or children until I died, and I would expect my parent's to be treated respectfully....if he didn't want to continue my care, give it to someone who DID...

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 01:17 PM
Thanks for the response, but the answer unfortunately did not have any bearing on the question asked.

Details
10-03-2005, 01:23 PM
Adultry, being hateful to the parents who WANTED to continue taking care of her.. If it were me, I would expect that there be NO OTHER WOMAN or children until I died, and I would expect my parent's to be treated respectfully....if he didn't want to continue my care, give it to someone who DID...My God, I sure wouldn't. Put me in that condition, and I sure hope my husband finds others to comfort him, to support him, to love him. My parents should be treated respectfully - unless they disrespect MY wishes. Then they can be treated as well as possible based on their behavior (Michael went above and beyond on that level).

MY body is not a toy to be passed around to whoever wants it - it should be treated as I would want it to be were I able to say. My parent's tears and wishes and guilt would not make me want to remain in a PVS for their sake - it would just torture them, prevent them from ever returning to reality - my parents have no say in what is done with MY body unless I give it to them.

Her parents didn't go see her as often as Michael - before or after they had the disagreement and Michael turned from Terri's devoted wonderful husband to the anti-Christ in their eyes. They tried taking care of her - and gave up on it quickly as too much work.

Gabby
10-03-2005, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the response, but the answer unfortunately did not have any bearing on the question asked.


You asked what we would want if it were us in that position... I answered what I didn't want and what I did.... so how could it have no bearing on the questions asked????????

Details
10-03-2005, 01:29 PM
Seems to me that he moved on a long time ago. How many girlfriends before the long term girlfriend and TWO KIDS?...Tells me that this guy was doing quite a bit of MOVING. He harped about being married and how he loved Terri BUT in my book living with another woman and fathering two children with her is called ADULTERY...not love... no matter how you slice it. Terri wouldn't have known he got a divorce...if he had...gosh, I wonder what was holding him back. Could it have been those big bucks for Terri's rehab that he was spending trying to get her feeding tube removed? I'll bet quite a few of those bucks lined his pockets. JMOHe didn't move on - he visited Terri continuously - she was a major part of his life, and his girlfriends didn't get to be the only woman in his life - he always had another person to care for - the girlfriends even did Terri's laundry! Terri's parents moved on more than he did - they visited less often (although they made that up in time they spent selling their daughter's case to the media :slap: ).

I can't call it adultery - Terri was dead. Everything that made Terri who she was, everything that made her human was dead. No brain, no memory, no personality, no communication. The scans while she was breathing showed it, the autopsy after she was dead showed it. "Until Death do we part". Michael was very loyal to Terri - fighting for the best care, every possible longshot experimental chance for her to recover. When he finally accepted the truth of what the doctors said, he was still loyal to her - turning down millions of dollars to fight for her right to determine the way she would die rather than turning her over to her parents who say they would not care about Terri's wishes.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 01:32 PM
You asked what we would want if it were us in that position... I answered what I didn't want and what I did.... so how could it have no bearing on the questions asked????????
No...what I asked was "Would you want to stay in a vegitative state for years upon years, have your poor drooling face that used to be so beautiful plastered all over the news?"

THAT was the question.

Technically, you could argue that there was also this question:

"And if he did [have something to do with her death], why in the world would he stand by her so long?"

Nothing about adultry, or another woman, or anyone's parents.

Jules
10-03-2005, 01:35 PM
My God, I sure wouldn't. Put me in that condition, and I sure hope my husband finds others to comfort him, to support him, to love him. My parents should be treated respectfully - unless they disrespect MY wishes. Then they can be treated as well as possible based on their behavior (Michael went above and beyond on that level).

MY body is not a toy to be passed around to whoever wants it - it should be treated as I would want it to be were I able to say. My parent's tears and wishes and guilt would not make me want to remain in a PVS for their sake - it would just torture them, prevent them from ever returning to reality - my parents have no say in what is done with MY body unless I give it to them.

Her parents didn't go see her as often as Michael - before or after they had the disagreement and Michael turned from Terri's devoted wonderful husband to the anti-Christ in their eyes. They tried taking care of her - and gave up on it quickly as too much work.

Well said. If I had been in Terri's position, I would not want my husband sitting there night and day with me. I would want him to move on - to have a chance at love and life - have children - all the things I could no longer provide him. I would, however, expect him to honor my wishes and if that meant fighting my family for what I believed in, then so be it.

My hope is that the Schindler family will come to grips with reality. They need to move on - as Michael has.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 01:39 PM
He didn't move on - he visited Terri continuously - she was a major part of his life, and his girlfriends didn't get to be the only woman in his life - he always had another person to care for - the girlfriends even did Terri's laundry! Terri's parents moved on more than he did - they visited less often (although they made that up in time they spent selling their daughter's case to the media :slap: ).

I can't call it adultery - Terri was dead. Everything that made Terri who she was, everything that made her human was dead. No brain, no memory, no personality, no communication. The scans while she was breathing showed it, the autopsy after she was dead showed it. "Until Death do we part". Michael was very loyal to Terri - fighting for the best care, every possible longshot experimental chance for her to recover. When he finally accepted the truth of what the doctors said, he was still loyal to her - turning down millions of dollars to fight for her right to determine the way she would die rather than turning her over to her parents who say they would not care about Terri's wishes.
Quite right. He also could have easily divorced her and let her parents take care of her the way THEY wanted to, hence freeing himself up to devote all of his time to his girlfriend and children. But he did not do that. He stuck it out till the end. What he did was stick by a woman he loved until her wishes were fulfilled with no regard to how he would "look" to anyone else. I would hope my husband would have Michael's kind of strength.

Ntegrity
10-03-2005, 01:41 PM
My question to the folks who think Michael is so horrible...what if it were YOU. What if what happened to Terri happened to YOU. Would you want to stay in a vegitative state for years upon years, have your poor drooling face that used to be so beautiful plastered all over the news? I personally don't believe Michael had anything to do with her collapse...but even if he did? She STILL shouldn't have been kept alive artificially for so long. And if he did, why in the world would he stand by her so long? I just don't see the logic in the argument.
My main objection to Michael Schiavo making the decision to end Terri's life is that he had an obvious conflict of interest. It was to his benefit to end Terri's life since that would free him up to move on with his new family. Free to marry and free of the financial obligation of caring for an invalid wife.

I also don't think it was wise of the judge to take the word of Schiavo's family members as testimony that Terri wouldn't want to live in that condition. Unless a living will clearly states the patient's wishes, I don't think the judicial system should even be hearing cases like this. It's "he said/she said" which is nothing but hearsay and wouldn't be allowed in most courts.

Having said that, I would not want to be kept alive in Terri's condition if there was no hope of recovery. However, my health directive states that under no circumstances should water be withheld to end my life. That's just a barbaric way to go. If you're going to kill me, please do it as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 01:47 PM
My main objection to Michael Schiavo making the decision to end Terri's life is that he had an obvious conflict of interest. It was to his benefit to end Terri's life since that would free him up to move on with his new family. Free to marry and free of the financial obligation of caring for an invalid wife.
Agreed - to a point. But then why not just divorce her and let her parents look after her? What was the driving need to continue the fight, if not for Terri? It certainly was not for his own gain, as you say - the longer she lived the longer he had to remain married to her and caring for her. If that was the motivation, why not just divorce her? I believe that he was carrying out her wishes to not want to live that way.

Tricia
10-03-2005, 01:48 PM
So many ways to look at it but there is one thing I think we all need to remember.

This case was one of the most lidigated(sp?) cases in a right to die case in history. All of Michael's "bad" behavior was gone through by the courts with a fine tooth comb. Yet, the courts still decided that Michael had the right to make the decision and that he was only following Terry's wishes.

I want you all to remember that please. This was a court fight that went on for over a decade. Everything was laid out for the courts to see.

Now, why didn't Michael let Terri's parents take care of her? Especially since Terri had no sense of anything going on around her? Perhaps he really is keeping his promise to her. Then again, maybe not.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 01:59 PM
So many ways to look at it but there is one thing I think we all need to remember.

This case was one of the most lidigated(sp?) cases in a right to die case in history. All of Michael's "bad" behavior was gone through by the courts with a fine tooth comb. Yet, the courts still decided that Michael had the right to make the decision and that he was only following Terry's wishes.

I want you all to remember that please. This was a court fight that went on for over a decade. Everything was laid out for the courts to see.

Now, why didn't Michael let Terri's parents take care of her? Especially since Terri had no sense of anything going on around her? Perhaps he really is keeping his promise to her. Then again, maybe not.
That's what I keep going back to Tricia. What motivation could he have possibly have had to keep fighting this if not for Terri? Obviously the courts believed him. Every possible scenario would have been better for him - had he let her parents "take over" care he could have been free and her parents would have been happy. I just can't imagine another reason to fight so hard to have her be set free if it weren't what he knew she wanted. If someone has another reason I'd be glad to hear it, but he sure had no monetary gain and was raked through the coals day in and day out in the media. Logic would have it, if he were such the selfish individual so many think that he is, why not just bow out and move on?

Tricia
10-03-2005, 02:03 PM
That's what I keep going back to Tricia. What motivation could he have possibly have had to keep fighting this if not for Terri? Obviously the courts believed him. Every possible scenario would have been better for him - had he let her parents "take over" care he could have been free and her parents would have been happy. I just can't imagine another reason to fight so hard to have her be set free if it weren't what he knew she wanted. If someone has another reason I'd be glad to hear it, but he sure had no monetary gain and was raked through the coals day in and day out in the media. Logic would have it, if he were such the selfish individual so many think that he is, why not just bow out and move on?

I agree with you 100 percent. I can't say for sure I know I am right but what you posted makes the most sense.

I can certainly understand why people are upset with him though since her parents wanted to take care of her and they had all those quacks saying she could eventually "go to movies" and "out to dinner." Good Lord.

That's what got my dander up. How dare these doctors give the parents this false hope. When the autopsy was done it proved all the things the doctors who examined her said. She had only a brain stem. No way for her to even know she is a living being let alone "go out to dinner."

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 02:08 PM
I agree with you 100 percent. I can't say for sure I know I am right but what you posted makes the most sense.

I can certainly understand why people are upset with him though since her parents wanted to take care of her and they had all those quacks saying she could eventually "go to movies" and "out to dinner." Good Lord.

That's what got my dander up. How dare these doctors give the parents this false hope. When the autopsy was done it proved all the things the doctors who examined her said. She had only a brain stem. No way for her to even know she is a living being let alone "go out to dinner."
Agreed. But I think the parents were given a kernel of false hope, which they nurtured and nurtered and nurtured far beyond any reasonable time. If it were my husband, or my mother, or my child, I would HAVE to look at them at some point and say "You know? We need to end this charade.". I know I would. Not after a week, of course. Or a month. Or a couple of years even. But after that? No way. Even if, by some miracle she would have opened her eyes, it wouldn't have been the same old Terry smiling up at them. Her body had deteriorated by that point so that there is no way that she could have had any semblance of a life. It saddens me to see people in their position, of course. Do I feel for them? Of course. But they needed to let her go.

Tricia
10-03-2005, 02:10 PM
Agreed. But I think the parents were given a kernel of false hope, which they nurtured and nurtered and nurtured far beyond any reasonable time. If it were my husband, or my mother, or my child, I would HAVE to look at them at some point and say "You know? We need to end this charade.". I know I would. Not after a week, of course. Or a month. Or a couple of years even. But after that? No way. Even if, by some miracle she would have opened her eyes, it wouldn't have been the same old Terry smiling up at them. Her body had deteriorated by that point so that there is no way that she could have had any semblance of a life. It saddens me to see people in their position, of course. Do I feel for them? Of course. But they needed to let her go.

Agreed Hbgchick.

I get the feeling Michael was a very difficult person to begin with. Perhaps his prickly personality along with the parents false hope is what really caused this thing to combust.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 02:42 PM
Agreed there too Tricia! It's easier to blame someone who just simply isn't particularly likable. If he had the charm and charisma of, say, a Ted Bundy - who of course murdered a whole load of folks - I'll bet people wouldn't be as anxious to jump on him. It could be that he said some not so kind things in response to the parents false hope (along the lines of "get over it, she's never going to wake up") and ended up in trouble for it. I don't think him an unkind man, but if you have trouble communicating, which I think he - and many men (no offense to anyone!) do - it may have come off wrongly enough for the parents to have turned on him.

vanillasky
10-03-2005, 03:02 PM
I can't call it adultery - Terri was dead. Everything that made Terri who she was, everything that made her human was dead. No brain, no memory, no personality, no communication. The scans while she was breathing showed it, the autopsy after she was dead showed it. "Until Death do we part".


I wasn't aware that "Until death do we part" was a vow open to interpretation.

mjak
10-03-2005, 04:22 PM
As I stated in my earlier post how can be pass judgment at all ???
We can never know, nor should we no the angusih both Terri's husband and parents felt. In my opinion what happened to Terri is not for us to pass judgment on but instaed we should pass our sympathies on to her love ones.
Everyone of is in an individual with unique situations. There is no way for us to ascribe our believes, views or reference frame on to this terrible tragedy and draw any conclusions from it. In my opinion the legal impications of this siatuion should be stuided and written up in the appropriate legal journals and briefs. To be used as learning tools. Other then that the family should be given the privacy they deserved all along. May Terri rest in peace.

mjak

SewingDeb
10-03-2005, 04:26 PM
As I stated in my earlier post how can be pass judgment at all ???
We can never know, nor should we no the angusih both Terri's husband and parents felt. In my opinion what happened to Terri is not for us to pass judgment on but instaed we should pass our sympathies on to her love ones.
Everyone of is in an individual with unique situations. There is no way for us to ascribe our believes, views or reference frame on to this terrible tragedy and draw any conclusions from it. In my opinion the legal impications of this siatuion should be stuided and written up in the appropriate legal journals and briefs. To be used as learning tools. Other then that the family should be given the privacy they deserved all along. May Terri rest in peace.

mjak

Amen. And living wills should be written now.

Details
10-03-2005, 04:38 PM
Having said that, I would not want to be kept alive in Terri's condition if there was no hope of recovery. However, my health directive states that under no circumstances should water be withheld to end my life. That's just a barbaric way to go. If you're going to kill me, please do it as quickly and painlessly as possible.From what I hear, it is supposed to be painless - conscious and aware patients have used it to end their lives - I think you can trust them. With that said - I agree - there should be a way to end someone's life without having to wait for dehydration, with all of the emotional strain on the family that causes. But right now, the courts don't give that option to families or patients. It's sad that you can be more humane to your pet at the end of it's life than you can to a human.

Hbgchick
10-03-2005, 04:43 PM
From what I hear, it is supposed to be painless - conscious and aware patients have used it to end their lives - I think you can trust them. With that said - I agree - there should be a way to end someone's life without having to wait for dehydration, with all of the emotional strain on the family that causes. But right now, the courts don't give that option to families or patients. It's sad that you can be more humane to your pet at the end of it's life than you can to a human.
Or yourself, for that matter.

BirdieBoo
10-03-2005, 08:09 PM
From what I hear, it is supposed to be painless - conscious and aware patients have used it to end their lives - I think you can trust them. With that said - I agree - there should be a way to end someone's life without having to wait for dehydration, with all of the emotional strain on the family that causes. But right now, the courts don't give that option to families or patients. It's sad that you can be more humane to your pet at the end of it's life than you can to a human.

Unfortunately, people can't come back and tell us what it's like to die from dehydration. I know I get miserable if I am without water even a short amount of time, a few hours, I usually have a bottle handy. Although I did not agree with the manner of Terri's death and how long the fight went on, and personally I don't care for Michael's personality, apparently no one has found him guilty of anything, so in the spirit of justice, I will go along with that right now. Terri is truly at peace now, and that's all that can happen.

I am personally confused though by the videos that showed her interaction with people, when she was vegitative. Perhaps some explanation that is reasonable to me will take place in the future, but the mysteries of medicine, and the human body and spirit are something I cannot understand for anyone's situation except my own.

Gabby
10-03-2005, 08:12 PM
No...what I asked was "Would you want to stay in a vegitative state for years upon years, have your poor drooling face that used to be so beautiful plastered all over the news?"

THAT was the question.

Technically, you could argue that there was also this question:

"And if he did [have something to do with her death], why in the world would he stand by her so long?"

Nothing about adultry, or another woman, or anyone's parents.



well excuse me............

Details
10-03-2005, 08:33 PM
I am personally confused though by the videos that showed her interaction with people, when she was vegitative. Perhaps some explanation that is reasonable to me will take place in the future, but the mysteries of medicine, and the human body and spirit are something I cannot understand for anyone's situation except my own.I can make a video of the world's smartest goldfish - when I say left, he turns left. When I say right, he turns right. When I say jump up and get some air, he does it. Wanna buy my intelligent goldfish?

OK, well actually I recorded my goldfish for several hours, kept repeating commands which he paid no attention to, then edited the tape down to just the occasions where his random motion happened to agree with my commands - the times he happened to go left when I said left. Maybe, I'm even sincere and honest, I believe that the goldfish is understanding me because I want so badly for it to be true. Still wanna buy my intelligent goldfish?

That's all the videos were - clips from much longer videos where Terri appears to be interacting, responding, out of hours of tape of her doing what PVS people always do, what the brainstem does when there is no brain to make meaningful motions - it just moves things around, blinks automatically, twitches the face into random expressions. When the random expression, when the random eye movement happens to match something the family is saying or doing, it goes into the video, when it doesn't, it's cut out - several hours of video went into that short clip they created. How much her family believed because they so much wanted to believe she was responding is impossible to know - but from the scans from that time and from the autopsy, they know she was blind, and her brain was gone, so she wasn't responding.

The real doctors who examined her, the independent doctors who reported to the judge - they saw her doing these things whether anyone was in the room or not, and no response to any commands, any voices, whether her mother or a random stranger. Terri wasn't really any kind of borderline case - the doctors knew for years before Michael accepted it that she wasn't ever coming back.

Tricia
10-03-2005, 08:46 PM
Unfortunately, people can't come back and tell us what it's like to die from dehydration. I know I get miserable if I am without water even a short amount of time, a few hours, I usually have a bottle handy. Although I did not agree with the manner of Terri's death and how long the fight went on, and personally I don't care for Michael's personality, apparently no one has found him guilty of anything, so in the spirit of justice, I will go along with that right now. Terri is truly at peace now, and that's all that can happen.

I am personally confused though by the videos that showed her interaction with people, when she was vegitative. Perhaps some explanation that is reasonable to me will take place in the future, but the mysteries of medicine, and the human body and spirit are something I cannot understand for anyone's situation except my own.

BirdieBoo, what you described is what made me think Terri had more than a functioning brain stem. How could someone look at you and smile when you say, I Love You" unless they knew what you were saying was kind? How could someone laugh at a joke like Terri did unless she was somewhat aware.

I learned later that what we saw from the family happened so rarely that the footage was years old. Add to that the information provided by a well respected expert in the field of PVS who said these types of reactions are just reflexes really. According to him these reactions might happen at a time when you do say I love you or you do say something funny. Just basic luck.

What we also didn't see but was finally shown later was the hundreds of times Terri never responded to the ballon, never responded to the voice. In other words, according to the experts, it was the law of averages that played out here. They did it enough times to finally get what looked like a response but was really just a reaction of the brain stem. Making noise and moving the eyes.

As far as the dying I sure as hell wouldn't want to die of dehydration. I do remember reading about the I.R.A. prisoners who refused food and water as a protest. They all died peacefully, without pain, and were very calm. The pain came in the first day or two. After that it was, if I remember correctly, very peaceful and pain free. They were still talking right up until almost the end. Very valuable research information. One heck of a way to get it though.

Tricia
10-03-2005, 08:48 PM
I would like to add that I was very open to either side of this. I really read up on it and researched it. I flat out didn't know what to think. It was only after the research and before the autopsy I might add, that I came to my conclusions.

I am certainly willing to rethink this situation if any new information is made available.

Norma
10-03-2005, 09:05 PM
From what I understand, the video's were made many years ago. She was nothing close to those the last year of her life.

BirdieBoo
10-04-2005, 02:06 AM
I can make a video of the world's smartest goldfish - when I say left, he turns left. When I say right, he turns right. When I say jump up and get some air, he does it. Wanna buy my intelligent goldfish?

OK, well actually I recorded my goldfish for several hours, kept repeating commands which he paid no attention to, then edited the tape down to just the occasions where his random motion happened to agree with my commands - the times he happened to go left when I said left. Maybe, I'm even sincere and honest, I believe that the goldfish is understanding me because I want so badly for it to be true. Still wanna buy my intelligent goldfish?

That's all the videos were - clips from much longer videos where Terri appears to be interacting, responding, out of hours of tape of her doing what PVS people always do, what the brainstem does when there is no brain to make meaningful motions - it just moves things around, blinks automatically, twitches the face into random expressions. When the random expression, when the random eye movement happens to match something the family is saying or doing, it goes into the video, when it doesn't, it's cut out - several hours of video went into that short clip they created. How much her family believed because they so much wanted to believe she was responding is impossible to know - but from the scans from that time and from the autopsy, they know she was blind, and her brain was gone, so she wasn't responding.

The real doctors who examined her, the independent doctors who reported to the judge - they saw her doing these things whether anyone was in the room or not, and no response to any commands, any voices, whether her mother or a random stranger. Terri wasn't really any kind of borderline case - the doctors knew for years before Michael accepted it that she wasn't ever coming back.

I don't think the videos were edited from hours and hours, I do know a bit about videotape editing here and there, It's hard to edit videotape and motion action of someone's face without seeing cuts. Actually it's pretty near impossible, even with today's state of the art equipment. I believe as Tricia and Pook said that they were older videotapes. That makes quite a bit of sense to me.

Hbgchick
10-04-2005, 09:05 AM
I would like to add that I was very open to either side of this. I really read up on it and researched it. I flat out didn't know what to think. It was only after the research and before the autopsy I might add, that I came to my conclusions.

I am certainly willing to rethink this situation if any new information is made available.
Boy Tricia, are we ever on the same page. I did not come into this with any opinion whatsoever either...in fact if I was leaning any direction I was hoping it was true that she was indeed interacting and if she was, I was wondering why anyone would want to take her off of the life support. But then, I learned the facts, and formed my opinion based on them. Like you, if someone would come up with new information I would be glad to consider it, but IMO the autopsy report sealed it for me, I don't know how you can refute that. It also proves how very delusioned her parents were, when clear, conclusive proof is presented to them they still say it is fabricated. Very sad, if you ask me.

I actually brought this case up to my mother, she's having a little trouble coming to terms with the fact that my step-dad really does have dementia and it's not going away, and in a conversation NOT about Dad I mentioned how sad it was that the people who loved Terri Schiavo so much caused all of this heartache for everyone simply because they loved her TOO much and were not willing to accept that they were loosing her. I told my mom that if they had just taken it in small doses, in stages, realizing over time that she was really gone, it would have been much easier on all of them. My mom's pretty intellegent, and said right away "that's what I'm doing, isn't it?" She had a good, cathartic cry then and felt much better. :) Sorry about the personal info, but it does make me so sad - and a little angry really - that those parents STILL won't let Terri go, how is that helping anyone?!?!?

englishleigh
10-04-2005, 09:10 AM
I have no interest in anything Michael Shiavo has to say.


Me, either.

Details
10-04-2005, 02:12 PM
I don't think the videos were edited from hours and hours, I do know a bit about videotape editing here and there, It's hard to edit videotape and motion action of someone's face without seeing cuts. Actually it's pretty near impossible, even with today's state of the art equipment. I believe as Tricia and Pook said that they were older videotapes. That makes quite a bit of sense to me.No, from what I recall, there was no debate from the family that they took a much longer videotape and cut it down. I'm not saying that they did a complete chop job - no interscene cuts, no trading faces or whatever - just pulled out the times when she seemed to be responding out of all the times when she had no response at all, or an incorrect response.

Of course, the family portrays it as pulling out clips of Terri's good moments because they want to believe that she understood them and was responding.

The videos are not real, from the simple fact that they claim to show Terri following a balloon with her eyes - and Terri was blind. But if you talk with a blind person long enough, they will sometimes seem to be watching, following something, just through random eye motion. But a video of those times doesn't prove they aren't blind.

Details
10-04-2005, 02:22 PM
I actually brought this case up to my mother, she's having a little trouble coming to terms with the fact that my step-dad really does have dementia and it's not going away, and in a conversation NOT about Dad I mentioned how sad it was that the people who loved Terri Schiavo so much caused all of this heartache for everyone simply because they loved her TOO much and were not willing to accept that they were loosing her. I told my mom that if they had just taken it in small doses, in stages, realizing over time that she was really gone, it would have been much easier on all of them. My mom's pretty intellegent, and said right away "that's what I'm doing, isn't it?" She had a good, cathartic cry then and felt much better. :) Sorry about the personal info, but it does make me so sad - and a little angry really - that those parents STILL won't let Terri go, how is that helping anyone?!?!?This case, and all of the times like it have lead me to one conclusion - family members should not be asked to make this decision. It's a medical decision, and a lousy thing to do to desperate and non-medical people who just don't understand medicine enough to make the decision, are too emotionally impacted to make the right choice. I'd make it, if I had to - but it shouldn't be required of someone to choose whether or not it is time to end the pain, end the hope, and discontinue life support. It should be something where the family members tell the doctors what the person's general wishes were - what kind of life she'd want to have, would not accept - then a group of doctors make the call - and when the case is hopeless, pull the plug. While I'm very anti-Bush, in that sense, his Texas law about discontinuing medical treatment on hopeless cases - I think it's a good idea. I think that's the right thing to do, and helps family members who just can't let go on their own.

Hbgchick
10-04-2005, 03:50 PM
This case, and all of the times like it have lead me to one conclusion - family members should not be asked to make this decision. It's a medical decision, and a lousy thing to do to desperate and non-medical people who just don't understand medicine enough to make the decision, are too emotionally impacted to make the right choice. I'd make it, if I had to - but it shouldn't be required of someone to choose whether or not it is time to end the pain, end the hope, and discontinue life support. It should be something where the family members tell the doctors what the person's general wishes were - what kind of life she'd want to have, would not accept - then a group of doctors make the call - and when the case is hopeless, pull the plug. While I'm very anti-Bush, in that sense, his Texas law about discontinuing medical treatment on hopeless cases - I think it's a good idea. I think that's the right thing to do, and helps family members who just can't let go on their own.
Excellent point, Details. I would not like to have to make it either...even though you may know it's the right thing and the right time, there would still always be that "but, what if....?" question that would probably hang over the decision-maker forever. However, there is the possibilty with that scenario where one doctor says yes, one says no. Then what? Back to the drawing board until they are unanamous I guess? I really think it's up to the individual, and that each individual should have in writing EXACTLY what their wishes are, and that the family members and doctors work together to fufill those wishes.

BirdieBoo
10-04-2005, 04:04 PM
No, from what I recall, there was no debate from the family that they took a much longer videotape and cut it down. I'm not saying that they did a complete chop job - no interscene cuts, no trading faces or whatever - just pulled out the times when she seemed to be responding out of all the times when she had no response at all, or an incorrect response.

Of course, the family portrays it as pulling out clips of Terri's good moments because they want to believe that she understood them and was responding.

The videos are not real, from the simple fact that they claim to show Terri following a balloon with her eyes - and Terri was blind. But if you talk with a blind person long enough, they will sometimes seem to be watching, following something, just through random eye motion. But a video of those times doesn't prove they aren't blind.

No, I understand that they were video clips, I don't believe that the family took a video camera in for twenty seconds a few times and all that stuff just happened to happen during those 20 second time frames. But I also don't believe that is the same as what you were suggesting with the "world's smartest goldfish" analogy, I'm not sure if your intent was to be condescending with that analogy, I don't think it is exactly the same thing. Taking "clips" out of videos is not the same as editing together video "clips" with the intent of deception.

Much the same when exciting sports highlights are shown during a newscast, the great plays are shown but no one shows the parts where nothing is happening and the fans are in line to use the restroom at the game, and they certainly do not edit together video to make it appear as if a great play that did not happen, actually did.

Details
10-04-2005, 04:51 PM
No, I understand that they were video clips, I don't believe that the family took a video camera in for twenty seconds a few times and all that stuff just happened to happen during those 20 second time frames. But I also don't believe that is the same as what you were suggesting with the "world's smartest goldfish" analogy, I'm not sure if your intent was to be condescending with that analogy, I don't think it is exactly the same thing. Taking "clips" out of videos is not the same as editing together video "clips" with the intent of deception.

Much the same when exciting sports highlights are shown during a newscast, the great plays are shown but no one shows the parts where nothing is happening and the fans are in line to use the restroom at the game, and they certainly do not edit together video to make it appear as if a great play that did not happen, actually did.We've got some real misunderstanding here - I'm not suggesting the family took a video camera in for 20 seconds and all this, nor that they did any editing tricks to create things that did not happen (you don't have to do that for the goldfish, after all).

They took a video camera, and videotaped several hours of them trying to get Terri to interact, talking to her, mom saying I love you, etc. Then, just like your sports highlights or my goldfish, they included every time Terri appeared to respond to what was being said or what was going on. They didn't include the times her mom said I love you, and Terri didn't respond at all, the times the balloon was not tracked in any way by Terri, etc.

It's the exact same thing as the goldfish - and it doesn't mean there was intentional deception (although I've got no doubt that they did use some deception other times, there were several blatant lies about what Terri did - which I'm sure they thought were justified - who wouldn't resort to deception and lies to save their daughter's life?). I can believe the goldfish understands me when I create the tape, and just pull out the examples proving it, while thinking that the goldfish either was sleeping, or just too tired to follow my commands the times he did not. The goldfish analogy isn't meant to be condescending, it is just a useful way of describing the same sort of misleading videotape creation. Maybe I've been told the goldfish is a reincarnation of my beloved father; maybe I've got some charlatan telling me the goldfish is trained and I believe it, and want to prove it to all the doubters.

I don't know what Terri's family thought. I think they believed it was real, and they were taking Terri's good moments to prove she was really in there; but they could have also known she wasn't really responding, but put together the tape to gain time to save her life. I don't see bad motives on their part - just either delusion or false hope. It's so easy to see what you want to be there, to take random actions (like when all the stoplights are red when you are in a hurry) as intentional.

Details
10-04-2005, 05:04 PM
Excellent point, Details. I would not like to have to make it either...even though you may know it's the right thing and the right time, there would still always be that "but, what if....?" question that would probably hang over the decision-maker forever. However, there is the possibilty with that scenario where one doctor says yes, one says no. Then what? Back to the drawing board until they are unanamous I guess? I really think it's up to the individual, and that each individual should have in writing EXACTLY what their wishes are, and that the family members and doctors work together to fufill those wishes.That's good, but there are always edge conditions. And young healthy people will always not think about these things, and fail to have living wills. In a living will, there is always a decision maker, because the person writing the living will is also not a doctor, and also doesn't know everything about the conditions and treatments - let alone what new treatments might come along in the decades before the living will is required. The real question is what are you willing to live with, when do you want to quit, and that's a very difficult intention to get down in writing precisely. I've had this conversation, and there are just so many odd cases; if you are probably going to die, but there's a 0.00000001% chance of a full recovery - but if we don't pull the plug now, it won't be possible to pull it later; or you probably won't die, but will be brain dead; or you will have the intelligence of a moron and no memories; or you will have significant brain damage, and will live in constant pain in a hospital room; etc. There are too many cases to enumerate every possibility, and with every single case, there are the probabilities - how likely is each outcome, what percentage chance of a mediocre outcome is worth trying for, etc. I hope I have enough of a feel for what my step-mom wants to execute her wishes if the time ever comes, but somehow, as much as we have discussed this, I don't really think it'll be something we discussed that is what really happens.

The law changes, medicine changes - it's just never going to be as simple as writing down what you want so your family doesn't have any decisions. I think a group of at least 3 doctors who know the case and work in the correct area of medicine, and let's say a 3/4 majority must agree - if it's 50/50, don't do it. Could even go to 90%, or higher. It needs to be managable, but not so easy that too many mistakes are made.

Details
10-04-2005, 05:22 PM
I've had this decision once for a cat - and that was tricky enough. A 15 year old cat - a wonderful, wonderful cat. Good health all her life (and a good thing because she's very hard to give medicine to, hates vets), just a little arthritis. I get home, and according to my sister, she's been walking around with her head down, just about dragging her nose on the ground all day. Doesn't act like she is in pain, but also doesn't act like she is comfortable, definitely not herself.

I give it a few hours to see if she'll recover, then take her to the emergency vet. They run a blood test, and find what they were expecting - this behavior is a symptom of low (or high) potassium? and means her liver/kidney/something or other has shut down.

Treatment options:

1. Put her to sleep - it's only going to get worse, and fast.
2. Don't put her to sleep, don't treat it.
3. Treatment - give her injections and pills twice every day, special food, gain maybe 3-6 months of life for her - one very dedicated owner has gained over a year of life for their cat. This treatment has a 10% chance of working in a cat this age.


It's not an easy decision - there's quality of life, whether or not the treatment would succeed, etc. Option 2 - I would never do that - it's not right to torment her that way. So, option 3.... she always had a lot of dignity, a lot of self esteem - she wasn't my pet nor my possession, she was my friend, and an equal in her mind. Option 3 is unlikely to work, but what is worse to me is that I would be, in her mind, torturing her several times a day, every day, for the rest of her life. And I can't communicate to her why - and she still wouldn't be healed, she'd just be alive.

My choice was option 4. Since my Bella wasn't visibly in pain, I asked him to give her a potassium injection, the initial treatment, to see if it made any difference, and took her home for the night - made her a special bed on the sofa with a warm rice bag underneath (a great treat for arthritic cats - we did that for her regularly), tried to take care of her and make her comfortable. She didn't move once in the night - in the morning she was still there, still same position. I made her get up - she still couldn't lift her head, and I could see she wasn't comfortable (cat's don't tend to show pain - if you can see they aren't comfortable, they are probably in a fair amount of pain). That made the choice for me. I took her in and had her put to sleep (they were very nice about that - let me hold her, had a special room - I guess emergency vets get a lot of experience in this).

I just can't see how this level of detail, from the one real life case I was involved in, gets into a living will.

Bobbisangel
10-04-2005, 08:17 PM
He didn't move on - he visited Terri continuously - she was a major part of his life, and his girlfriends didn't get to be the only woman in his life - he always had another person to care for - the girlfriends even did Terri's laundry! Terri's parents moved on more than he did - they visited less often (although they made that up in time they spent selling their daughter's case to the media :slap: ).

I can't call it adultery - Terri was dead. Everything that made Terri who she was, everything that made her human was dead. No brain, no memory, no personality, no communication. The scans while she was breathing showed it, the autopsy after she was dead showed it. "Until Death do we part". Michael was very loyal to Terri - fighting for the best care, every possible longshot experimental chance for her to recover. When he finally accepted the truth of what the doctors said, he was still loyal to her - turning down millions of dollars to fight for her right to determine the way she would die rather than turning her over to her parents who say they would not care about Terri's wishes.

Maybe he was the dedicated husband the first year or two but that all came to a halt. From what the people that took care of Terri have said Michael S.
refused to even let them send Terri to the hospital to have a urinary track infections tended to. For years Terri went without any kind of "best care" or any kind of rehab at all.

I don't think the good Lord looked at Michael S. as single while Terri was still alive. The law didn't either. Maybe he convinced himself that he was but that still didn't make him single.

I believe Terri's family would have spent time every day with her if they had been allowed. Mr. Big Shot took care of that when he refused to let them visit
the majority of the time over the years. He controlled when they could and couldn't visit their daughter/sister. He controlled Terri's medical care. He had to control every aspect of Terri's life. IMO this man (?) will reap what he has sown in time. I don't call anything that he did where Terri is concerned "love."
It would be interesting to see how dedicated and "in love" his girlfriend would remain if Michael S. should ever end up in the condition Terri did.

tybee204
10-04-2005, 08:56 PM
Michael Shaivo only controlled the parents visitation after they violated a Court order and released pictures and videos to the press.

Not initually treating the urinary infection was the Doctors recommendation not Michael Shiavos.

ScorpioGal
10-04-2005, 09:30 PM
I have no interest in anything Michael Shiavo has to say.I'm sure that Michael Schiavo has no interest in whatever we have to say about it, either.

I have a living will, a health care proxy and heaven help the person who stands in my husbands way when he tries to carry out my orders.

It's a shame that in this day and age of "enlightenment"???, Michael's only option was to deny food and water in order to prevent his dead wife's body from continuing on without her.

As my father said on his death bed, as he was dying from cancer, "WE TREAT ANIMALS BETTER THAN THIS". He was so right. For all the chemo and radiation they pumped into his body, he still died anyway. In fact, the doctors told him 2 years before, that he would last 2 years. Instead of a pleasant quick death, it was a painfully long and lingering death. If I could have, I would have ended it for him myself.

Our cherished animal will be gently put out of their misery. Our loved ones we will allow to linger and suffer, in my opinion, the ultimate selfish act.

Dr. Kevorkian, my hero!

dakini
10-04-2005, 09:50 PM
My father in law died recently. He lived through the Schiavo debacle. When he was no longer hungry and not processing food well he refused a feeding tube.

He eventually fell into a coma and died peacefully in his sleep. Thank goodness he was conscious enough to indicate his preferences.

The family, his wife and daughters, honored his wishes when he was no longer conscious.

Some folks in the country on the most extreme edge of the "right to life" scale will not rest until they can force everyone's family to put a feeding tube in..

Details
10-04-2005, 10:24 PM
Maybe he was the dedicated husband the first year or two but that all came to a halt. From what the people that took care of Terri have said Michael S. refused to even let them send Terri to the hospital to have a urinary track infections tended to. For years Terri went without any kind of "best care" or any kind of rehab at all.

I don't think the good Lord looked at Michael S. as single while Terri was still alive. The law didn't either. Maybe he convinced himself that he was but that still didn't make him single.

I believe Terri's family would have spent time every day with her if they had been allowed. Mr. Big Shot took care of that when he refused to let them visit
the majority of the time over the years. He controlled when they could and couldn't visit their daughter/sister. He controlled Terri's medical care. He had to control every aspect of Terri's life. IMO this man (?) will reap what he has sown in time. I don't call anything that he did where Terri is concerned "love."
It would be interesting to see how dedicated and "in love" his girlfriend would remain if Michael S. should ever end up in the condition Terri did.He continued to visit regularly all the way until the end - he lived in the hospice for the last weeks. He was a more frequent visitor the entire time than the Schindlers - and they were free to visit pretty nearly any time - with very few exceptions (Tybee already addressed that). They weren't there. The quality of her care was found in the autopsy, and how long she survived after feeding was discontinued - both extremely high, no bed sores, something that indicates quite a high quality of care all the way through, quite extraordinary for a PVS patient that long comatose.

As to what the good Lord may have thought - I think that's a matter for him to decide. Myself, if I believe in a compassionate and just Lord, I don't think he forced Terri to remain confined to that living corpse. Terri was dead, I think in the Lords eyes (the Bible was not written in a time where this kind of medical miracle was even possible). There was a breathing body left behind, but Terri herself was dead. Michael knew it, even Terri's family seems to have known it - they encouraged Michael to date, and were quite happy with him while he was dating - until he made a decision they opposed.

For love - if my husband did that for me, I'd consider it love above and beyond anything I could possibly expect - to put so much of his life on hold to honor me, try to get me back, and finally make my final wishes executed - I would want nothing different, nothing more from him. Certainly NOT to remain celibate and alone when I was already gone. And NOT to let my family run all over him if they decided to oppose him in carrying out what I wanted.

reb
10-04-2005, 11:09 PM
all i can say is that this man is nothing short of a SAINT for doing what he believed was the right, humane, dignified thing to do, that was also WHAT HE KNEW WERE HIS WIFE'S WISHES... in the face of so much hostile, psychotic hatred and oppostition. isn't it funny that those who seem so bizarrely obsessed with "LIFE" seem to know (nor do they care) nothing about the QUALITY of life, and how to treat other LIVING people in a humane and respectful way?? that those who seem to obsessed with OTHER peoples' lives seem unable to "get a life"...? and seem to be obsessively judgemental of other peoples' decisions about THEIR private lives (and their loved ones' lives)....?
i think this whole absurd debacle only proved that there is something very, VERY wrong with this country, mentally... if there is a group of extremists who are going to demonize a person for allowing their spouse- who will never recover and will live in a persistent vegetative state for the rest of their lives (and i would not wish that on my worst enemy, much less someone i loved!!)- to die with dignity, in a peaceful environment, among loved ones. what more could one ask for?

(and i thought religious people weren't afraid of death....? who knew?!)

those people should be ASHAMED for dressing up like clowns and carrying on, wailing, and engaging in mass hysteria, and threatening the man & hiw current family with VIOLENCE (!-- what sheer hypocrisy!)... when they could have spent their time helping others who would have been VERY grateful and desperately needed their help.
and are any of these people volunteering and helping out any of the millions of disabled persons out there? why did they only care about terri, what about others who really DO need a spokesperson, or need assistance, or an advocate? or did they all just go back home and turn on CNN & the 700 club to feed their "news candy" addiction?

you can't help but wonder.

Hbgchick
10-05-2005, 09:17 AM
That's good, but there are always edge conditions. And young healthy people will always not think about these things, and fail to have living wills. In a living will, there is always a decision maker, because the person writing the living will is also not a doctor, and also doesn't know everything about the conditions and treatments - let alone what new treatments might come along in the decades before the living will is required. The real question is what are you willing to live with, when do you want to quit, and that's a very difficult intention to get down in writing precisely. I've had this conversation, and there are just so many odd cases; if you are probably going to die, but there's a 0.00000001% chance of a full recovery - but if we don't pull the plug now, it won't be possible to pull it later; or you probably won't die, but will be brain dead; or you will have the intelligence of a moron and no memories; or you will have significant brain damage, and will live in constant pain in a hospital room; etc. There are too many cases to enumerate every possibility, and with every single case, there are the probabilities - how likely is each outcome, what percentage chance of a mediocre outcome is worth trying for, etc. I hope I have enough of a feel for what my step-mom wants to execute her wishes if the time ever comes, but somehow, as much as we have discussed this, I don't really think it'll be something we discussed that is what really happens.

The law changes, medicine changes - it's just never going to be as simple as writing down what you want so your family doesn't have any decisions. I think a group of at least 3 doctors who know the case and work in the correct area of medicine, and let's say a 3/4 majority must agree - if it's 50/50, don't do it. Could even go to 90%, or higher. It needs to be managable, but not so easy that too many mistakes are made.
Unfortunately I don't know if there's any "sure and perfect way" to end a life and be absolutely, unequivocally certain that there is no possibility that the person might not hop up out of bed one day and say Hallelujah! I'm cured!! That's what makes us human I guess, that little bit of faith that hangs on and hangs on and says "but...what if just this one time...God decided to make MY loved one the miracle?".

I think it needs to be a combination of all of the things we mentioned, people need to have their wishes known, there need to be at least three specialty physicians consulted and those physicians need to work with the family (and provide counseling) to them so that they concur, or are at least comfortable with, the decision of the physicians. My concern is if you let the doctors just go ahead and make the decision without the support of the family, you could have the same situation in reverse.
.