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View Full Version : GUILTY Lynndie England Case Set to Go to Jury






tybee204
09-26-2005, 01:34 PM
More at Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050926/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/prisoner_abuse_england;_ylt=AjoqrpElYr_LFO0odGarIh xI2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

FORT HOOD, Texas - Prosecutors in Pfc. Lynndie England's prison abuse case portrayed her in closing arguments Monday as an eager participant with a "sick" sense of humor, while defense attorneys described her as a weak-minded pawn trying to appease a sadistic boyfriend

A jury of Army officers was to start deliberating Monday afternoon. England, one of the most visible figures in the Abu Ghraib scandal, faces up to 11 years in prison if convicted on seven counts of conspiracy and maltreatment of detainees at the Iraq prison in 2003.

Jurors heard competing descriptions of the 22-year-old reservist from Fort Ashby, W.Va., during closing arguments.

Jeana (DP)
09-26-2005, 02:36 PM
Just once I'd like to see someone take responsibility for their own actions. If I were this girl's attorney I would have just had her throw herself on the mercy of the court and plead to some sort of battle-stress. The "she was just like a puppy" excuse does nothing for me.

Jules
09-26-2005, 02:57 PM
Yep, I agree Jeana. The pictures I saw of her she looked nothing like a puppy. She seemed to be enjoying herself and I saw no gun pointed at her in those photos.

vanillasky
09-26-2005, 03:40 PM
Breaking news on CNN.com says:

U.S. Army soldier Lynndie England is convicted of six counts in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse case, The Associated Press reports.


No details yet....

Jeana (DP)
09-26-2005, 03:57 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Unfortunately, she had a child with that other idiot. I'm not sure if its better that the child is raised by her or the person that raised the two of them?? :waitasec:

Casshew
09-26-2005, 04:08 PM
Leash Gal's parents must be so proud :rolleyes:

Jules
09-26-2005, 04:42 PM
FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) -- Army Pfc. Lynndie England, whose smiling poses in photos of detainee abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison made her the face of the scandal, was convicted Monday by a military jury on six of seven counts.

England, 22, was found guilty of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act. She was acquitted on a second conspiracy count.

The jury of five male Army officers took about two hours to reach its verdict. Her case now moves into the sentencing phase, which will determined by the same jury. She faces a maximum 10 years in prison.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/26/prisoner.abuse.england.ap/index.html

Jules
09-27-2005, 10:37 PM
FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) -- A military jury at Fort Hood, Texas, Tuesday sentenced Army Pfc. Lynndie England to three years behind bars for her role in detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/27/prisoner.abuse.england.ap/index.html

IdahoMom
12-30-2005, 10:41 AM
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2005-12-30T001612Z_01_KNE000801_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-ABUSE-ENGLAND.xml&rpc=22

snip

Lynndie England, the U.S. soldier incarcerated for abusing detainees in Iraq, was badly burned in a prison kitchen accident, her mother said on Thursday.
England, who was pictured holding a leash to a naked, hooded Iraqi inmate at the Abu Ghraib prison, was sentenced in September to three years for her part in the abuse scandal that sparked worldwide outrage. She is now confined to the Naval Consolidated Brig Miramar in San Diego, California.

England works in the prison's kitchen, where she suffered second- and possibly third-degree burns from being splattered with grease over her chest as she removed chickens from a tall oven, her mother, Terrie England, said in an interview.

"She was in severe pain," she said of the December 14 incident. "Everybody in the prison heard the scream."

Terrie England, who is caring for England's infant during her incarceration, faulted prison officials for not giving better treatment during a visit to the emergency room.

Floh
12-30-2005, 10:48 AM
Terrie England, who is caring for England's infant during her incarceration, faulted prison officials for not giving better treatment during a visit to the emergency room.

Strange: i fault Lynndie England for not removing the chickens with more care.

but there you have it. :rolleyes:

IdahoMom
12-30-2005, 10:56 AM
Strange: i fault Lynndie England for not removing the chickens with more care.

but there you have it. :rolleyes:
LOL...that was EXACTLY what I thought when I read that part!:D

Opie
12-30-2005, 10:15 PM
Speaking here as a short person, I thought she was also short. If she was removing something from a TALL oven, I can see a problem there. Of course, this is all speculation, as I have none of the facts, just questions.

Marthatex
12-30-2005, 10:31 PM
She is very short; she should have asked for a step stool or gotten a taller person to do it. I've never heard of an oven that tall, though, where you're cooking chickens. It is very hard to lift something heavy DOWN, you can easily drop it.

Hmm. Don't think she's quite "all there", and also they may want a way to get her out of prison. Second degree can heal; third degree burns are pretty bad and can scar.

Opie
12-30-2005, 10:39 PM
Marthatex,
I have lived with a built-in oven and had to have help removing items heavier than a cake. A turkey could have been fatal, I'm afraid.
Also, I am unfortunately familiar with 2nd and 3rd degree burns, as my son was burned as a child (gasoline & matches at a neighbor's). I guess this is the reason this article caught my attention so much. Not making any excuses for anything that has happened with Ms. England.

deanws
12-31-2005, 02:15 AM
Marthatex,
I have lived with a built-in oven and had to have help removing items heavier than a cake. A turkey could have been fatal, I'm afraid.
Also, I am unfortunately familiar with 2nd and 3rd degree burns, as my son was burned as a child (gasoline & matches at a neighbor's). I guess this is the reason this article caught my attention so much. Not making any excuses for anything that has happened with Ms. England.Oh Opie...so sorry.:(

Marthatex
12-31-2005, 09:53 AM
Marthatex,
I have lived with a built-in oven and had to have help removing items heavier than a cake. A turkey could have been fatal, I'm afraid.
Also, I am unfortunately familiar with 2nd and 3rd degree burns, as my son was burned as a child (gasoline & matches at a neighbor's). I guess this is the reason this article caught my attention so much. Not making any excuses for anything that has happened with Ms. England.

Oh dear, I hope you don't think I was downplaying the burns. No I thinks burns are awful - my son also had 2 friends playing with gasoline and it flaired up in their faces. Luckily, by a miracle, it was second degree burns and they pretty much healed. They were so lucky. Sometimes I don't make myself clear. I was just saying that the 2nd degrees ones will probably heal pretty well, but the 3rd degree ones are pretty bad.

The article sounded like it hit her CHEST - not all over her body or her face. That's good. Of course she screamed - the pain of hot grease is awful, no matter how little -even on your hand.

I just meant I don't think she was well supervised or too smart to try to lift that down; and the family may try to use the burn incident to get her out of prison. I don't know.

I'd like to read more information. Opie, I sure hope you son is OK now, and doesn't have too much injury.

jennirey
12-31-2005, 10:46 AM
My mother was once burned while removing Chickens a Service Deli Oven, splattering hot grease down her front. She was in a lot of pain for a long time. But she is fine today.. Lynndie England will be fine soon enough to keep serving her time...

Opie
12-31-2005, 08:29 PM
Marthatex--
My son was around 9 at the time of his injuries. He had skin grafts and recovered fine, though his legs will never look right. Now he is an adult, married, with 2 children of his own. His chief problem with his legs now is that he cannot swim in chlorinated pools, as they cause some kind of skin reaction. Pools with other types of chemicals work just fine. We were all blessed with the outcome, as it could have been so very much worse. Thank you for your concern.

SadieMae
01-01-2006, 12:15 AM
Maybe it's because I live at Fort Hood, but I didn't think she or anyone should have gone to jail for the prison incidents. I've seen the devastation first hand what those SOB's in Iraq have done to our troops, and not to mention their families. None of those prisoners DIED by cowardly deeds of their "enemy". So what they were humiliated, they are alive, fed and housed. Ours that are captured don't live as well as prisoners, or are murdered. I've listened to an 8 year old explain to me how his Daddy went to heaven, I've hugged & cried with a 21 year old wife who gave birth to her first child 3 weeks before her husband was killed, I took a home off the market I listed when a wife with 4 kids found out her husband was killed from a roadside bomb, it goes on and on. This week alone Fort Hood lost 5 soldiers, one was only 20 years old, from dirty tactics. As harsh as it sounds I could care less if the Iraqi insurgents they capture are thrown in room with hungry pit bulls.
Ok...I'm ducking... :truce: who threw that 3" heel at me?

englishleigh
01-01-2006, 12:18 AM
Maybe it's because I live at Fort Hood, but I didn't think she or anyone should have gone to jail for the prison incidents. I've seen the devastation first hand what those SOB's in Iraq have done to our troops, and not to mention their families. None of those prisoners DIED by cowardly deeds of their "enemy". So what they were humiliated, they are alive, fed and housed. Ours that are captured don't live as well as prisoners, or are murdered. I've listened to an 8 year old explain to me how his Daddy went to heaven, I've hugged & cried with a 21 year old wife who gave birth to her first child 3 weeks before her husband was killed, I took a home off the market I listed when a wife with 4 kids found out her husband was killed from a roadside bomb, it goes on and on. This week alone Fort Hood lost 5 soldiers, one was only 20 years old, from dirty tactics. As harsh as it sounds I could care less if the Iraqi insurgents they capture are thrown in room with hungry pit bulls.
Ok...I'm ducking... :truce: who threw that 3" heel at me?

Wasn't me, SadieMae....I agree with you. Those terrorists they "humilated" are the ones who'd like to kill all of US!!

michelle
01-01-2006, 12:25 AM
Maybe it's because I live at Fort Hood, but I didn't think she or anyone should have gone to jail for the prison incidents. I've seen the devastation first hand what those SOB's in Iraq have done to our troops, and not to mention their families. None of those prisoners DIED by cowardly deeds of their "enemy". So what they were humiliated, they are alive, fed and housed. Ours that are captured don't live as well as prisoners, or are murdered. I've listened to an 8 year old explain to me how his Daddy went to heaven, I've hugged & cried with a 21 year old wife who gave birth to her first child 3 weeks before her husband was killed, I took a home off the market I listed when a wife with 4 kids found out her husband was killed from a roadside bomb, it goes on and on. This week alone Fort Hood lost 5 soldiers, one was only 20 years old, from dirty tactics. As harsh as it sounds I could care less if the Iraqi insurgents they capture are thrown in room with hungry pit bulls.
Ok...I'm ducking... :truce: who threw that 3" heel at me?
my brother is in ft hood, so i am with you on this sadie...

Opie
01-01-2006, 12:27 AM
sadiemae, you won't get any argument from me. At least they are alive.

SadieMae
01-01-2006, 12:33 AM
my brother is in ft hood, so i am with you on this sadie...
1st Cav, 13th CosCom, or 4th ID?

michelle
01-01-2006, 12:37 AM
1st Cav, 13th CosCom, or 4th ID?
i believe its 1st, he is home now for xmas but going back on monday morning, he signed up about 8 months ago, i did not want him to but he seems to like it he has met a lot of friends down there...

SadieMae
01-01-2006, 12:43 AM
i believe its 1st, he is home now for xmas but going back on monday morning, he signed up about 8 months ago, i did not want him to but he seems to like it he has met a lot of friends down there...
Yep, it's a pretty friendly place here. 1st Cav won't be going to Iraq for a while I don't believe, most returned back in March. Most of the 4th ID just left for their 2nd time to Iraq. If he ever needs help with anything just PM me.

michelle
01-01-2006, 12:58 AM
Yep, it's a pretty friendly place here. 1st Cav won't be going to Iraq for a while I don't believe, most returned back in March. Most of the 4th ID just left for their 2nd time to Iraq. If he ever needs help with anything just PM me.
thanks i will!!!

shadowangel
01-01-2006, 01:05 AM
Maybe it's because I live at Fort Hood, but I didn't think she or anyone should have gone to jail for the prison incidents. I've seen the devastation first hand what those SOB's in Iraq have done to our troops, and not to mention their families. None of those prisoners DIED by cowardly deeds of their "enemy". So what they were humiliated, they are alive, fed and housed. Ours that are captured don't live as well as prisoners, or are murdered. I've listened to an 8 year old explain to me how his Daddy went to heaven, I've hugged & cried with a 21 year old wife who gave birth to her first child 3 weeks before her husband was killed, I took a home off the market I listed when a wife with 4 kids found out her husband was killed from a roadside bomb, it goes on and on. This week alone Fort Hood lost 5 soldiers, one was only 20 years old, from dirty tactics. As harsh as it sounds I could care less if the Iraqi insurgents they capture are thrown in room with hungry pit bulls.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
(89th MP Bde, '89-'95, and that little thing known as Operation Desert Storm...)

kylie
01-01-2006, 03:33 AM
So, you know for a fact that those incarcerated were "terrorists?" Actually, we invaded a sovereign nation which posed no threat to us....those arrrested may have been fighting against our occupation....they would not see themselves as terrorists...Iraq had nothing to with 911....many arrested were petty criminals.....what right did Lyndie England or anyone else have to treat another person that way....it is unneccesary and simply makes us look bad....she and Charles Granger, a documented domestic abuser did more than just shoot some pictures.....
I'm sure there were higher ups with knowledge and they should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law...the full impact of our foolhardy invasion in Iraq may take years to truly comprhend in all it's horror- much like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistam...it may ultimately have divided our country and exhausted our resources to the point where we cannot recover.....of course the President is now talking about a strike on Iran...which may have been the real reason for our Iraq invasion....
Why do you think that John Mc Cain, a torture victim himself, wants to ban it?
What we did was unethical, inhumane and does not lead to useful information as the torture victim will say anything to stop the torture..How do you think the info about the connection to Africa was made -which turned out to be false? Also, as a democratic nation, we have made a committment to not use cruel and unusual punishment..One terrorist attack is no excuse to act like a cowboy invading a country with no ties to 911 and alienating its citizens....
I certainly hope you have not taught your children that what Ms. England did was right.............it is a sad day when the victims become the victimizers...

Marthatex
01-01-2006, 11:35 PM
Marthatex--
My son was around 9 at the time of his injuries. He had skin grafts and recovered fine, though his legs will never look right. Now he is an adult, married, with 2 children of his own. His chief problem with his legs now is that he cannot swim in chlorinated pools, as they cause some kind of skin reaction. Pools with other types of chemicals work just fine. We were all blessed with the outcome, as it could have been so very much worse. Thank you for your concern.

good. glad it wasn't on his face and all.

KatherineQ
01-01-2006, 11:49 PM
It's kind of freeing to just say I don't care what happens to her. I think she's one of those women who only care if guys like them, and they care about nothing else. Nothing.

I think if she didn't go to prison, she'd have her child to raise and her child would be abused and maybe even killed by a young man she wanted to impress.

I agree, Lynndie England probably has an intelligence problem. I'd bet her IQ is somewhere around 92. But that doesn't excuse her desire to hurt others just to impress that jackass who fathered her baby.

Prayers that her baby is being raised to be a better person than she is.

SadieMae
01-02-2006, 12:32 AM
So, you know for a fact that those incarcerated were "terrorists?" Actually, we invaded a sovereign nation which posed no threat to us....those arrrested may have been fighting against our occupation....they would not see themselves as terrorists...Iraq had nothing to with 911....many arrested were petty criminals.....what right did Lyndie England or anyone else have to treat another person that way....it is unneccesary and simply makes us look bad....she and Charles Granger, a documented domestic abuser did more than just shoot some pictures.....
I'm sure there were higher ups with knowledge and they should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law...the full impact of our foolhardy invasion in Iraq may take years to truly comprhend in all it's horror- much like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistam...it may ultimately have divided our country and exhausted our resources to the point where we cannot recover.....of course the President is now talking about a strike on Iran...which may have been the real reason for our Iraq invasion....
Why do you think that John Mc Cain, a torture victim himself, wants to ban it?
What we did was unethical, inhumane and does not lead to useful information as the torture victim will say anything to stop the torture..How do you think the info about the connection to Africa was made -which turned out to be false? Also, as a democratic nation, we have made a committment to not use cruel and unusual punishment..One terrorist attack is no excuse to act like a cowboy invading a country with no ties to 911 and alienating its citizens....
I certainly hope you have not taught your children that what Ms. England did was right.............it is a sad day when the victims become the victimizers...Did I say I did??? Think I even care what they think? Those criminals are probably living better in our prison than they did in Iraq. :hand:
What Hitler did to the Jews wasn't a threat to us either, guess we shoulda never gotten involved in that either, huh?
As far as what I teach my kids...DON'T EVEN GO THERE!

proadvocate
01-02-2006, 04:23 PM
Terrie England, who is caring for England's infant during her incarceration, faulted prison officials for not giving better treatment during a visit to the emergency room.


Typical liberal gibberish.It is always the States fault.Unfortunately liberals tend to forget that the State does not recruit morons to spend time within its penal institutes...Word of advice...Can't suffer the time don't make others suffer your crime.They shoulda took the moron to the ER on a leash,it would have been quite fitting for her.

gamegirl
01-02-2006, 05:08 PM
Karma? :twocents:

deanws
01-03-2006, 01:43 AM
Karma? :twocents:No..I am sorry...I do not believe so.

spclk
01-03-2006, 06:35 PM
I have to agree with you. I made the terrible mistake of watching the video of nicholas Berg being decapitated and it has haunted me since, literally the stuff that nightmares are made of. If any of you had watched it, I tend to think you would agree with me. It is the most horrendous thing I have EVER witnessed.

I think Enland took the fall for alot of people higher up. I don't agree that we shouldn't mistreat anyone, but also don't believe that she should suffer the punishment alone. There are many more that were in command that walked away scott free.

I do feel pity on the Iraqi people, but have absolutely NO sympathy for those that are killing our soldiers, cutting off the heads of civilians and resisting democracy.

I am one of those who did not agree that we should have gone to war, but now that we are there, we must do whatever we have to to win it and get our soldiers home.

michelle
01-03-2006, 06:37 PM
I have to agree with you. I made the terrible mistake of watching the video of nicholas Berg being decapitated and it has haunted me since, literally the stuff that nightmares are made of. If any of you had watched it, I tend to think you would agree with me. It is the most horrendous thing I have EVER witnessed.

I think Enland took the fall for alot of people higher up. I don't agree that we shouldn't mistreat anyone, but also don't believe that she should suffer the punishment alone. There are many more that were in command that walked away scott free.

I do feel pity on the Iraqi people, but have absolutely NO sympathy for those that are killing our soldiers, cutting off the heads of civilians and resisting democracy.

I am one of those who did not agree that we should have gone to war, but now that we are there, we must do whatever we have to to win it and get our soldiers home.
i would have horrible nightmares if i watched something like that....

SadieMae
01-03-2006, 09:38 PM
i would have horrible nightmares if i watched something like that....
I saw videos of them all, Daniel Perle, Berg and a few others. Sickening what they will do. I can't believe those same people complaining about AbuGraib (sp) aren't showing outrage at what the Iraqi groups are doing to U. S. CIVILIANS. And I have not seen ANY reports of our soldiers who may have been taken prisoner. I don't even know if any are missing over there. I find that very odd. If they don't take prisoners, it means they automatically kill and don't bother with housing or feeding our soldiers. If they are taking prisoners, why don't we hear how they are treated???

Lesleegp
01-03-2006, 09:42 PM
I'll take having my picture made nude with a dog collar and leash on over being blindfolded and having my head sawed off with a dull steak knife for my poor family to see any day.

Linda7NJ
01-03-2006, 09:54 PM
I'll take having my picture made nude with a dog collar and leash on over being blindfolded and having my head sawed off with a dull steak knife for my poor family to see any day.
ditto!:clap:

Schmerty_Jones
01-03-2006, 10:09 PM
I saw videos of them all, Daniel Perle, Berg and a few others. Sickening what they will do. I can't believe those same people complaining about AbuGraib (sp) aren't showing outrage at what the Iraqi groups are doing to U. S. CIVILIANS. And I have not seen ANY reports of our soldiers who may have been taken prisoner. I don't even know if any are missing over there. I find that very odd. If they don't take prisoners, it means they automatically kill and don't bother with housing or feeding our soldiers. If they are taking prisoners, why don't we hear how they are treated???
Sadie Mae ,you go girl!!!!! The horrors they have inflicted upon our people! I could care less about their humiliation....what does Daniel Perle's little son who never kissed his kindly father feel....... :furious: They make me sick , I'm outraged with their total lack of humanity! :sick: :sick:

Linda7NJ
01-03-2006, 10:22 PM
I saw videos of them all, Daniel Perle, Berg and a few others. Sickening what they will do. I can't believe those same people complaining about AbuGraib (sp) aren't showing outrage at what the Iraqi groups are doing to U. S. CIVILIANS. And I have not seen ANY reports of our soldiers who may have been taken prisoner. I don't even know if any are missing over there. I find that very odd. If they don't take prisoners, it means they automatically kill and don't bother with housing or feeding our soldiers. If they are taking prisoners, why don't we hear how they are treated???
I've watched them all too. The screams & those images still haunt me , it was NOTHING like I imagined. Nothing.

I tell you what, I don't regret watching the videos, it put the whole thing in perspective for me. These terrorists aren't deserving of any sympathy. They are the worst kind of evil and don't even deserve to be considered human.

Marthatex
01-04-2006, 09:22 AM
"Iraqi groups?" Don't you mean terrorist groups, or insurgent groups?

I thought we went in to Iraq to free Iraqis and help give them Democracy. Many of the Iraqis would just like to have their freedom, their families, life back to normal. Most of them are not the terrorists.

I thought Al Quaida, some outsiders like Syrians, and some Sunnis are terrorists or insurgents. I wouldn't really call them "iraqi groups".

Yes, it just made me sick about Daniel Perle and Nick Berg. That's what the terrorists want is to enrage and sicken us. I have forgotten which group it was, exactly, that killed them. Too much has happened to remember. But my opinion is that we just can't round up suspects, but them in prison and torture them at random to get "information". They aren't ALL necessarily terrorists like the one who killed Perle and Berg.

We have just released many of them, no? Aren't some of them innocent? I agree with John McCain that we must be tough, but show the world that we have standards, that we are NOT like the terrorists.

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.

Lesleegp
01-04-2006, 09:41 AM
There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.

I don't call what we did to them torture. FAR from it. As I said above.....having your head sawed off with a dull knife....that is torture. Having your picture made in humiliating situations is just that....humiliating....not torture.

jannuncutt
01-04-2006, 10:17 AM
"Iraqi groups?" Don't you mean terrorist groups, or insurgent groups?

I thought we went in to Iraq to free Iraqis and help give them Democracy. Many of the Iraqis would just like to have their freedom, their families, life back to normal. Most of them are not the terrorists.

I thought Al Quaida, some outsiders like Syrians, and some Sunnis are terrorists or insurgents. I wouldn't really call them "iraqi groups".

Yes, it just made me sick about Daniel Perle and Nick Berg. That's what the terrorists want is to enrage and sicken us. I have forgotten which group it was, exactly, that killed them. Too much has happened to remember. But my opinion is that we just can't round up suspects, but them in prison and torture them at random to get "information". They aren't ALL necessarily terrorists like the one who killed Perle and Berg.

We have just released many of them, no? Aren't some of them innocent? I agree with John McCain that we must be tough, but show the world that we have standards, that we are NOT like the terrorists.

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors. Well said, Marthatex, well said. It seems to me that whatever harm is done to the Iraqi people is just being rationalized away - as though Iraqi = terrorist. I know that Bush keeps bumbling along but, the last time I heard, I thought that we were supposed to be helping those people - last time I heard. :rolleyes:

Marthatex
01-04-2006, 11:23 PM
Yes, it's so complicated Jan. Sometimes we have to remember and learn just who the REAL terrorists are. Saddam was a cruel despot, but he wasn't even a radical Islamic. He hated Iran, and we supported him.

The Al queda in Iraq group is led by Zarkawi, a Jordanian, who recruited terrorists INTO Iraq, or within the Sunnis who don't want the Americans to succeed. Many of the Sunni groups now are denouncing the horrible suicide bombings.

How do they know who to round up and put in prison? alot of mistakes are made I'm sure. That is my point.

lostfaith
01-05-2006, 02:11 AM
"Iraqi groups?" Don't you mean terrorist groups, or insurgent groups?

I thought we went in to Iraq to free Iraqis and help give them Democracy. Many of the Iraqis would just like to have their freedom, their families, life back to normal. Most of them are not the terrorists.

I thought Al Quaida, some outsiders like Syrians, and some Sunnis are terrorists or insurgents. I wouldn't really call them "iraqi groups".

Yes, it just made me sick about Daniel Perle and Nick Berg. That's what the terrorists want is to enrage and sicken us. I have forgotten which group it was, exactly, that killed them. Too much has happened to remember. But my opinion is that we just can't round up suspects, but them in prison and torture them at random to get "information". They aren't ALL necessarily terrorists like the one who killed Perle and Berg.

We have just released many of them, no? Aren't some of them innocent? I agree with John McCain that we must be tough, but show the world that we have standards, that we are NOT like the terrorists.

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.


I have to agree with you, Martha. I watched the video's too. It was horrible, it made me sick, I was angry and wanted vengence. I admit, many times I have wanted an eye for an eye with many of the criminals we read about on this site. But...... our country is not about that. We should be trying to teach them that violence is wrong, and you teach by example. Granted, what England and the others did doesnt even begin to compare to beheadings and other horrible things they have done, but our country should be leading by example, period! YOU DONT TREAT PEOPLE, INCLUDING PRISONERS LIKE THIS, as much as you want to. I was embarrased by what these soldiers did. Sorry if that offends anyone. I hate them as much as anyone, but we have to show that we are more civilized than them, or where does that leave us. I also believe she took the fall for higher uppers.

Mygirlsadie
01-05-2006, 03:58 AM
Hey SadieMae...I agree with ya!! I'm assuming your also a soldiers wife so I know your way of thinking all too well. I read this reply shaking my head ''yep''.. by the way I just left ft.hood a cpl.months ago I lived there for 6 years in Comm.2 ..Ha! Take care and enjoy the heat lol we are in Germany now..!! :D




Maybe it's because I live at Fort Hood, but I didn't think she or anyone should have gone to jail for the prison incidents. I've seen the devastation first hand what those SOB's in Iraq have done to our troops, and not to mention their families. None of those prisoners DIED by cowardly deeds of their "enemy". So what they were humiliated, they are alive, fed and housed. Ours that are captured don't live as well as prisoners, or are murdered. I've listened to an 8 year old explain to me how his Daddy went to heaven, I've hugged & cried with a 21 year old wife who gave birth to her first child 3 weeks before her husband was killed, I took a home off the market I listed when a wife with 4 kids found out her husband was killed from a roadside bomb, it goes on and on. This week alone Fort Hood lost 5 soldiers, one was only 20 years old, from dirty tactics. As harsh as it sounds I could care less if the Iraqi insurgents they capture are thrown in room with hungry pit bulls.
Ok...I'm ducking... :truce: who threw that 3" heel at me?

Marthatex
01-05-2006, 10:16 AM
I have to agree with you, Martha. I watched the video's too. It was horrible, it made me sick, I was angry and wanted vengence. I admit, many times I have wanted an eye for an eye with many of the criminals we read about on this site. But...... our country is not about that. We should be trying to teach them that violence is wrong, and you teach by example. Granted, what England and the others did doesnt even begin to compare to beheadings and other horrible things they have done, but our country should be leading by example, period! YOU DONT TREAT PEOPLE, INCLUDING PRISONERS LIKE THIS, as much as you want to. I was embarrased by what these soldiers did. Sorry if that offends anyone. I hate them as much as anyone, but we have to show that we are more civilized than them, or where does that leave us. I also believe she took the fall for higher uppers.

Well said, LostFaith. Better than I am saying, with my rambling lately. Even the New Testament says, Do not confront evil with another act of evil.

We are bombing innocent children, flattening houses to get at insurgents. Our troops are "sitting ducks"; that is no war they have been trained to do. They DID what they were supposed to do, and they should come home proud.

If you look at the news, it looks like we are going to be trying to withdraw. Iraq will never be our "friends"IMO. It reminds me a bit of Vietnam.

Marthatex
01-05-2006, 10:38 AM
For anyone interested in Daniel Pearl, I looked it up - he was trying to investigate the connection between Pakistan and Mohammed Atta, the ringleader of 9-11. Evidently the Pakistani Shiek had sent Atta $100,000 to his account.

The group was: The National Movement of Pakistani Sovereignty (claimed Pearl was a spy), captured him and beheaded him. It happened IN Pakistan

Pakistan has always undermined us and probably still are. Why didn't we just bomb them? There are terrorists groups everywhere, and even more now.

Daniel Pearl was Jewish, graduated from Stanford University, Phi Beta Kappa Probably didn't realize what a hornet's nest he was getting into.

http://en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Daniel_Pearl

Wuschel
01-05-2006, 10:44 AM
So, you know for a fact that those incarcerated were "terrorists?" Actually, we invaded a sovereign nation which posed no threat to us....those arrrested may have been fighting against our occupation....they would not see themselves as terrorists...Iraq had nothing to with 911....many arrested were petty criminals.....what right did Lyndie England or anyone else have to treat another person that way....it is unneccesary and simply makes us look bad....she and Charles Granger, a documented domestic abuser did more than just shoot some pictures.....
I'm sure there were higher ups with knowledge and they should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law...the full impact of our foolhardy invasion in Iraq may take years to truly comprhend in all it's horror- much like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistam...it may ultimately have divided our country and exhausted our resources to the point where we cannot recover.....of course the President is now talking about a strike on Iran...which may have been the real reason for our Iraq invasion....
Why do you think that John Mc Cain, a torture victim himself, wants to ban it?
What we did was unethical, inhumane and does not lead to useful information as the torture victim will say anything to stop the torture..How do you think the info about the connection to Africa was made -which turned out to be false? Also, as a democratic nation, we have made a committment to not use cruel and unusual punishment..One terrorist attack is no excuse to act like a cowboy invading a country with no ties to 911 and alienating its citizens....
I certainly hope you have not taught your children that what Ms. England did was right.............it is a sad day when the victims become the victimizers...
I agree with you, Kylie. The fault of those in prison was not proven in any way, and even if they were criminals, torture and sexual humiliation are unlawful and I hope they always will be.

Geez, history keeps repeating itself. Should we not have learned from the middle ages that torture does not lead anywhere? Why did we ban it from our legal systems years ago? That was done for a good reason!

Wuschel

Marthatex
01-06-2006, 10:02 AM
I don't call what we did to them torture. FAR from it. As I said above.....having your head sawed off with a dull knife....that is torture. Having your picture made in humiliating situations is just that....humiliating....not torture.


So, you think being dragged by a leash naked, in front of all these guys who don't speak your language and look kind of scary, and might rape you any moment - 'cause they have you bend and pose in alll sorts of sexual positions - take pictures of you - that is not TORTURE? It would be to me. Anytime you're afraid for your life, afraid for your decency and self respect, and what they might do to you - heart beat increases, etc. THAT"S TORTURE

Sleep deprivation; sound torture, many other techniques they used there and at other SECRET prisons where we've just found out this or WORSE is going on - yes it's torture, and most believe what John McCain has said and that's why the White House had to make the concession on torture.

I'm not asking you to baby-sit my puppy dog, that's for sure. as they say, some things are even worse than death.

Lesleegp
01-06-2006, 10:20 AM
So, you think being dragged by a leash naked, in front of all these guys who don't speak your language and look kind of scary, and might rape you any moment - 'cause they have you bend and pose in alll sorts of sexual positions - take pictures of you - that is not TORTURE? It would be to me. Anytime you're afraid for your life, afraid for your decency and self respect, and what they might do to you - heart beat increases, etc. THAT"S TORTURE

Sleep deprivation; sound torture, many other techniques they used there and at other SECRET prisons where we've just found out this or WORSE is going on - yes it's torture, and most believe what John McCain has said and that's why the White House had to make the concession on torture.

I'm not asking you to baby-sit my puppy dog, that's for sure. as they say, some things are even worse than death.

Frankly, no I don't call it torture.....the facts that I know happened. I never heard they were raped. I will read more on that.

And for the record, I'm not in the dog sitting business. :)

Wuschel
01-08-2006, 10:10 AM
Marthatex and LostFaith, thank you for your thoughtful posts.

I hate to say it, and I certainly know that I should be careful with that kind of comparisons, but what is going on right now with the prisoners in Guantanamo and with the torture in the Iraqi prisons and the redefinition of the term torture sometimes reminds me of the early beginnings of the 3rd Reich.

Back then, peoples rights were taken away just merely because of their Jewish faith, or because of their political belief, or because they were homosexual........without trials and without any regard of their personal involvement into a particular crime. Not that the German government back then needed crimes to take their rights away (they just did it), but that makes it even worse to think that history obviously has begun to repeat itself.

Wuschel

Marthatex
01-08-2006, 10:27 AM
Make no mistake, I'm not sympathetic towards this crazy ideology and any terrorists who are murdering innocent people all over the world now. It's horrible. It's difficult to catch them and bring them to justice.

But obviously the methods we have been using have "backfired" on us. We should have had more forethought; we should maintained our integrity, as Tony Blair's example shows - by cracking down, increasing security, but maintaining the country's basic ideals and strength.

I have no idea what's going on in all the prisons; evidently the Iraqi controlled ones are even WORSE. Why would they want to do practically the same as what Saddam did?

And if the tortured prisoners are released, whom do you think they join up with? Yep, our prisons and Iraqi prisons may be "boot camp" for the insurgency. And zarqawi has got recruits flowing in, while the American military is waning. Ironic, isn't it?