JBR Head Injury

[Zman]

I have always thought that JBR head injury was viewalbe from the outside. According to LS there is no external sign of injury.

Many of you may have known this but it's new to me. I have always just assumed there was some outside wound even if very small compared to the trauma inside.

Most of you have seen the picture of her skull.
How could this injury not have caused any external damage?
I know people can get concussions and such but this is a 1 inch square hole.
Is LS right? Was there no external injury at all.
And if so how do you cause a 1 inch hole in someone's skull without causing any injury to the skin.

[LinasK]

It's called a Closed Head Injury, the kind you get from shaking a baby, or a violent car crash...basically you get brain-damage from the brain bouncing around inside the skull. Hard enough to damage the brain-stem, responsible for breathing, alertness and such, and you get death.

The cells are being battered against the skull, torn, and twisted.

[Maikai]

I have always thought that JBR head injury was viewalbe from the outside. According to LS there is no external sign of injury.

Many of you may have known this but it's new to me. I have always just assumed there was some outside wound even if very small compared to the trauma inside.

Most of you have seen the picture of her skull.
How could this injury not have caused any external damage?
I know people can get concussions and such but this is a 1 inch square hole.
Is LS right? Was there no external injury at all.
And if so how do you cause a 1 inch hole in someone's skull without causing any injury to the skin.

would cause that kind of injury without tearing the outside skin. JBR was near death when she was struck, as evidence by the minimal amount of blood in the brain. There was a portion of the skull displaced, with an approx. 8" crack in the skull. It was a powerful blow, and they didn't know about it until the autopsy.

[txsvicki]

I've not seen a whole lot about the actual head injury and how it is thought that it took place other than before or after death. Are there any thoughts of the medical examiners on what position Jon Benet was in at the time of the blow? I mean, if she were laying on the concrete floor, wouldn't such a hard blow cause some rebound action and bruising of the opposite side or tearing of the neck muscles due to the force if she were upright at the time?

[Nuisanceposter]

In the autopsy they say she suffered temporal lobe bruising, the same as when a baby is shaken violently. I suspect the perp realized she was dying and shook her to try to awaken her, but it didn't work. IMO, that's when the perp decided it was time to smash her on the head and totally stage the whole scene. Apparently the coroner didn't realize she had the head wound until he removed her scalp.

I have always assumed she was sitting upright while being tortured, and further assume she was slumped over but still kind of upright when she was struck on the head. If she had been prone, I would expect to see a different location of injury or different injury.

[Lacy Wood]

A hard blow with say a bat, long flashlight, or similar object gives an effectively instantaneous injury to the head...the same with a fall against a tub, stairstep, etc. Lacerations of the scalp normally occur in that instant as the soft tissue scalp is split between the object and the skull. This occurs because the underlying bone is harder obviously, but also because there is a miniscule but finite time difference between the object striking the scalp and the skull. In this instant, the skull is by inertia a counter force to the blow. The scalp splits between the two forces by simple physics. Copious blood then flows from the highly vascular scalp.

But that is not what was seen here...no blood, no split scalp. For that reason I have thought maybe there was a type injury in which the scalp was squeezed between the injuring force applied and the skull over a longer period in which force and pressure transferred to and compressed the skull...a pressure that built for a fraction of a second (or even considerably longer), passing to and compressing the skull, leading to a compression split. Examples would be a garage door closing on the head; the head between an inside door and the doorjam when the door is forced as if to close; someone standing or jumping on the head...One other, and I have to rely on a very old memory, was a similar injury when the victim's head was literally placed in a shop vise which was tightened and fractured the skull.

[Zman]

A hard blow with say a bat, long flashlight, or similar object gives an effectively instantaneous injury to the head...the same with a fall against a tub, stairstep, etc. Lacerations of the scalp normally occur in that instant as the soft tissue scalp is split between the object and the skull. This occurs because the underlying bone is harder obviously, but also because there is a miniscule but finite time difference between the object striking the scalp and the skull. In this instant, the skull is by inertia a counter force to the blow. The scalp splits between the two forces by simple physics. Copious blood then flows from the highly vascular scalp.

But that is not what was seen here...no blood, no split scalp. For that reason I have thought maybe there was a type injury in which the scalp was squeezed between the injuring force applied and the skull over a longer period in which force and pressure transferred to and compressed the skull...a pressure that built for a fraction of a second (or even considerably longer), passing to and compressing the skull, leading to a compression split. Examples would be a garage door closing on the head; the head between an inside door and the doorjam when the door is forced as if to close; someone standing or jumping on the head...One other, and I have to rely on a very old memory, was a similar injury when the victim's head was literally placed in a shop vise which was tightened and fractured the skull.
Is it possible the head injury was caused by LE or the CO. Did they drop her or drop something on her or maybe even hit her head on something without knowing or telling anyone?

[LinasK]

Is it possible the head injury was caused by LE or the CO. Did they drop her or drop something on her or maybe even hit her head on something without knowing or telling anyone?
How could they when they hadn't even discovered her? John Ramsey was the one to bring her upstairs. I don't believe any LE or ME is that careless.

[narlacat]

I doubt it.
Jonbenet's body, when found, was carried upstairs by John.
He placed her body right where he stood in the front hallway.
Arndt moved her body from there to just inside the living room, at the foot of the christmas tree.
That is where she lay until the early evening until Dr Meyer arrived.
Are you suggesting something happened on the way to the morgue??

[Zman]

I doubt it.
Jonbenet's body, when found, was carried upstairs by John.
He placed her body right where he stood in the front hallway.
Arndt moved her body from there to just inside the living room, at the foot of the christmas tree.
That is where she lay until the early evening until Dr Meyer arrived.
Are you suggesting something happened on the way to the morgue??
Yes, or at the morgue. All they had to do was drop her one time.

[Maikai]

In the autopsy they say she suffered temporal lobe bruising, the same as when a baby is shaken violently. I suspect the perp realized she was dying and shook her to try to awaken her, but it didn't work. IMO, that's when the perp decided it was time to smash her on the head and totally stage the whole scene. Apparently the coroner didn't realize she had the head wound until he removed her scalp.

I have always assumed she was sitting upright while being tortured, and further assume she was slumped over but still kind of upright when she was struck on the head. If she had been prone, I would expect to see a different location of injury or different injury.

about the temporal lobe bruising--about the only one that mentioned it. I'm not crazy about Wecht but he's not a complete moron. Wecht theorized the perp may have shaken her after she lost consciousness by the strangling, due to pressue on the vagus nerve, which caused her heart to stop beating. He doesn't think the murder was intentional, but a sex game. He's wrong about JR being the perp, but there could be something to his theory about the sequence of events.

Strangulation and a blow to the head isn't unique to JBR. For some reasons, other perps have struck out in this manner.

[Becba]

It's called a Closed Head Injury, the kind you get from shaking a baby, or a violent car crash...basically you get brain-damage from the brain bouncing around inside the skull. Hard enough to damage the brain-stem, responsible for breathing, alertness and such, and you get death.

The cells are being battered against the skull, torn, and twisted.It was an 8 inch long fracture of her skull. She hit something hard or something hard hit her. Your skull is pretty darn tough and doesn't crack 8 inches from being shaken.
The injury just did not break the skin. It depends on what did the damage as to whether the skin breaks.

[narlacat]

about the temporal lobe bruising--about the only one that mentioned it. I'm not crazy about Wecht but he's not a complete moron. Wecht theorized the perp may have shaken her after she lost consciousness by the strangling, due to pressue on the vagus nerve, which caused her heart to stop beating. He doesn't think the murder was intentional, but a sex game. He's wrong about JR being the perp, but there could be something to his theory about the sequence of events.

Strangulation and a blow to the head isn't unique to JBR. For some reasons, other perps have struck out in this manner.Well, he may not have been wrong about JR Maikai. We do not know that for sure.

A savvy strangler will finish off with a blow to the head to make sure their victim is dead.

[Maikai]

Well, he may not have been wrong about JR Maikai. We do not know that for sure.

A savvy strangler will finish off with a blow to the head to make sure their victim is dead.

Wecht was influenced by the pageant photos and jumped to conclusions, and he should have known better, since he has a Law degree and Medical degree. Perhaps he has "fat head syndrome."

The blow to the head seems like the perp was in a rage, to me....or like you say, he wanted to make sure she was dead. I think he underestimated how difficult it is to kidnap a young child--one that was struggling to get away from him.

[txsvicki]

Wecht was influenced by the pageant photos and jumped to conclusions, and he should have known better, since he has a Law degree and Medical degree. Perhaps he has "fat head syndrome."

The blow to the head seems like the perp was in a rage, to me....or like you say, he wanted to make sure she was dead. I think he underestimated how difficult it is to kidnap a young child--one that was struggling to get away from him.

But, there were those loose loops around the hands that weren't even pulled tightly and there was no evidence of a gag in the mouth to prevent screaming, and the legs weren't bound. I mean, the duct tape on the mouth was placed after death so why wouldn't a perp have just bound her tightly with the tape that he had? I don't see why a kidnapper wouldn't take the time to do these things and be prepared for a struggle. Also, if those marks really were stun gun marks, Jon Benet would surely have been unable to struggle very much.

[LinasK]

It was an 8 inch long fracture of her skull. She hit something hard or something hard hit her. Your skull is pretty darn tough and doesn't crack 8 inches from being shaken.

I was answering the questionHow could this injury not have caused any external damage?
She could still have been shaken then struck in the head as has been suggested.

[LinasK]

Wecht was influenced by the pageant photos and jumped to conclusions, and he should have known better, since he has a Law degree and Medical degree. Perhaps he has "fat head syndrome."

The blow to the head seems like the perp was in a rage, to me....or like you say, he wanted to make sure she was dead. I think he underestimated how difficult it is to kidnap a young child--one that was struggling to get away from him.

Why do you believe he was wrong about JR being the perp? I believe JR was the most likely perp!

[narlacat]

I think he is the most likely too.
Someone close to JonBenet was molesting her.
I certainly don't discount John as the one responsible.

[Zman]

I was answering the question
She could still have been shaken then struck in the head as has been suggested.Well she may have been shaken but would that crack the skull?

It's still a 1 inch square hole with no outer injury. Not even a lump.

Is anyone aware of any info on such injurys that may apply?

[Maikai]

Well she may have been shaken but would that crack the skull?

It's still a 1 inch square hole with no outer injury. Not even a lump.

Is anyone aware of any info on such injurys that may apply?

The bruising on the termporal lobes is one possible injury. The crack in the skull and displaced bone, another injury, and most likely the last brutal act against JBR, which is why no lump, and little blood inside the skull--she was dead or close to dying at that point. The displaced bone area, would indicate the shape of the object that was used to strike her.

[Maikai]

Why do you believe he was wrong about JR being the perp? I believe JR was the most likely perp!

Cops are taught if a child is found dead in a home, to look at people inside the home first....in the case of the BPD, they never got past that. With JR, there is no history...no socioeconomic or other factors that usually are present in perps that kill children. (ie: lowlife boyfriend with drinking or drug problem, prone to violence). Children from his previous marriage cannot believe anyone could even accuse their father of sexually abusing JBR. No history there. I believe past actions predict future behavior.

Whoever did this is not a stranger to violence, and they had a criminal mind, and knew about things like stun guns, breaking and entering, and how to make a garrotte, and viewed extortion-type movies.

[Maikai]

But, there were those loose loops around the hands that weren't even pulled tightly and there was no evidence of a gag in the mouth to prevent screaming, and the legs weren't bound. I mean, the duct tape on the mouth was placed after death so why wouldn't a perp have just bound her tightly with the tape that he had? I don't see why a kidnapper wouldn't take the time to do these things and be prepared for a struggle. Also, if those marks really were stun gun marks, Jon Benet would surely have been unable to struggle very much.

JR undid one of the loops, and he said it was on tight....why the cord was used on the wrists in that way, I don't know.

Lou Smit theorized that her ankles may have been tied, but perp then used the cord as a garrotte. I don't know if it's been established when the duct tape was placed on her mouth. One thing I find strange, is she wasn't blindfolded--indicating to me, the perp wasn't concerned about being recognized, because JBR didn't know him...OR like some think, the intent was to murder her all along.

As far as the effect of the stun gun--I don't know how long it would permanently immobilize JBR--there's never been studies of the effect on children. (for obvious reasons!) In adults, it's been shown that it can temporarily discomboggle an adult man.

[Jayelles]

Cops are taught if a child is found dead in a home, to look at people inside the home first....in the case of the BPD, they never got past that. With JR, there is no history...no socioeconomic or other factors that usually are present in perps that kill children. (ie: lowlife boyfriend with drinking or drug problem, prone to violence). Children from his previous marriage cannot believe anyone could even accuse their father of sexually abusing JBR. No history there. I believe past actions predict future behavior.

Whoever did this is not a stranger to violence, and they had a criminal mind, and knew about things like stun guns, breaking and entering, and how to make a garrotte, and viewed extortion-type movies.
They never got "past" it because they never got through it due to the masssive stonewall which was erected. The Ramseys wanted the BPD to give them an automatic pass based on the "kind of people we are". The British upper classes are notorious for this. They think that they are above the law and that their connections will get them off the hook. We have Madonna parking her car ever week on a double yellow line outside her health club. Every week she gets a ticket. The fact is, double yellow lines are there for a purpose. They are there to keep certain road areas free from congestion. Madonna doesn't care - she sees only the financial implications - which she can easily afford. No consideration is given to the rest of us who are inconvenienced by her parked car. Some people think that laws are for other people to adhere to - that it's one law for them and another for everyone else.

The Ramseys brought about the public criticism. Their behaviour is the reason why so many people think they have something to hide. Since then, they have done absolutely nothing to reverse public opinion about them.

[Maikai]

I don't see why a kidnapper wouldn't take the time to do these things and be prepared for a struggle.

I think the perp got her out of the bedroom while she was still sound asleep, and down the stairs, with no problem. He would have wanted to get her as far away from the rest of the people in the house as possible. In the basement is where I think she woke up, and the perp (being an amateur in kidnapping) understimated how difficult it can be to subdue a small 6-year old, and that he wouldn't be able to reason with her. The crime scene in the basement indicates to me an impulsive act--possibly stun gunning first..quickly making a garrotte (for control so she wouldn't run away)...and then some kind of rage--something set him off. I don't believe this perp was cool, calm, and collected---but on an adenaline high, and under the influence of a drug or alcohol or both.

[Maikai]

They never got "past" it because they never got through it due to the masssive stonewall which was erected. The Ramseys wanted the BPD to give them an automatic pass based on the "kind of people we are". The British upper classes are notorious for this. They think that they are above the law and that their connections will get them off the hook. We have Madonna parking her car ever week on a double yellow line outside her health club. Every week she gets a ticket. The fact is, double yellow lines are there for a purpose. They are there to keep certain road areas free from congestion. Madonna doesn't care - she sees only the financial implications - which she can easily afford. No consideration is given to the rest of us who are inconvenienced by her parked car. Some people think that laws are for other people to adhere to - that it's one law for them and another for everyone else.

The Ramseys brought about the public criticism. Their behaviour is the reason why so many people think they have something to hide. Since then, they have done absolutely nothing to reverse public opinion about them.

to a point. Lawyering up tends to pit one side against another, and the lawyers tell their clients to "shut up" and let them handle it. On top of that, the BPD was embarrassed early on in the media---it was only a matter of days before fingers were being pointed at them for screwing up the crime scene that first day. There may have even been some legal concerns that the City would be sued. On top of that, the Ramseys not cozying up to Ellers may have been a real slap in the face, and they hired a powerful lawfirm. SO....IMO, hiding behind lawyers isn't always the answer. On the other hand, the BPD could have worked with the Ramseys attorneys, and compromised on the interviews and investigation, but both sides dug in fairly early, and the more they dug in, the greater jeopardy the Ramseys were in of being arrested..of losing Burke (visions of the Dowalibys)...of the City going after their assets if convicted--early on one of the DA's mentioned that if the suspect had money, they could go after it to pay for the investigation and trial.

And Madonna? Well, if I were her, I'd park anywhere I d#mn well pleased, too. Sounds like the ticket is less than putting up with a hassle of finding a parking place.

[Nuisanceposter]

I just have such a hard time believing someone would break into their house on Christmas Day and sit around waiting for the Ramseys to return. I have a hard time believing he spent time there alone writing a note and familiarizing himself with the layout of the house. That's just way too risky. That's not how kidnappers or murderers operate. This perp did not know what they were doing.

Then when I look at the bizarre ransom note that appears consistent with Patsy's style of speaking and handwriting, plus all of the references that a stranger wouldn't have known about coupled with the way the Rams have all but refused to cooperate and acted completely opposite of how the note instructed them to (even sent Burke out when there was supposed to be someone watching the house, not to mention calling police and everyone else they could) as if they knew there was no danger from anyone watching their house, and I think there's no way that crime was pulled off by any intruder.

[Maikai]

I just have such a hard time believing someone would break into their house on Christmas Day and sit around waiting for the Ramseys to return. I have a hard time believing he spent time there alone writing a note and familiarizing himself with the layout of the house. That's just way too risky. That's not how kidnappers or murderers operate. This perp did not know what they were doing.

Then when I look at the bizarre ransom note that appears consistent with Patsy's style of speaking and handwriting, plus all of the references that a stranger wouldn't have known about coupled with the way the Rams have all but refused to cooperate and acted completely opposite of how the note instructed them to (even sent Burke out when there was supposed to be someone watching the house, not to mention calling police and everyone else they could) as if they knew there was no danger from anyone watching their house, and I think there's no way that crime was pulled off by any intruder.

that two parents who doted on their child were involved in garrotting her and watching while she tried to scratch the cord off her neck? That they stun gunned her...bashed her in the head.....and then sexually assaulted her with the end of a paintbrush? Two parents with no history whatsoever of violence...mistreating their children...criminal backgrounds--in fact the opposite is true.

Patsy did not watch extortion films--nor express any interest in these types of films. If there had been anything in that area, Steve Thomas would have had it on his fantasy circumstantial evidence list. There's others whose handwriting matched much more closely. The screenwriters are a closer match to the style of speaking in the note.

There was no personal information in the note. John's name was in it and a reference to southern roots, and JR was not even from the south--he was born in Michigan.

Crimes at Christmas are nothing unusual--particularly burglaries. There's a slew of mystery books about murder at Christmas.....the Rue Morgue Mystery book shop (name has since changed) on Pearl Street--kitty corner from Pasta Jay's, might have even had a special display of mystery books with a Christmas theme.

The fact that the Ramseys didn't pay attention to the threats in the ransom note, indicate that it was scary enough to convince some people that it may have been real, and the intent of the writer might have been to write a scary note so they wouldn't call the police.

The house was not all that complicated. The Ramseys bedroom took up the entire 3rd floor. Bedrooms on the second....living room, kitchen, etc. on the first. The basement itself was only under the original part of the house--not a large space. If the perp had previously been in the house, he would have been familiar with it.

The article on the 2lst highlighting the "billionaire" John Ramsey could have been the trigger for a warped mind, and had his name in it, and reference to a Dixieland Jazz band. Boulder has always been a mecca for all kinds of people..and had a huge transient population...and had a rising crime rate due to the drug subculture. Some loser with a history of crime and drug use makes more sense to me.

[trixie]

All of that could make sense. But there's something left out. A BIG something.

PINEAPPLE.

[Zman]

All of that could make sense. But there's something left out. A BIG something.

PINEAPPLE.Yes pineapple is tough to explain. But it's tough no matter what side your on. It makes no sense for a stranger or her parents to give her pineapple for any reason. However we don't even know if it was pineapple in that bowl. We only know LE said there was. And they have said many things that seem to be only an attempt to get the R's to slip or admit guilt under pressure.

[LinasK]

The bruising on the termporal lobes is one possible injury. The crack in the skull and displaced bone, another injury, and most likely the last brutal act against JBR, which is why no lump, and little blood inside the skull--she was dead or close to dying at that point. The displaced bone area, would indicate the shape of the object that was used to strike her.
Thank-you for your explanation MaiKai, we are in agreement on this point...

[LinasK]

Cops are taught if a child is found dead in a home, to look at people inside the home first....in the case of the BPD, they never got past that. With JR, there is no history...no socioeconomic or other factors that usually are present in perps that kill children. (ie: lowlife boyfriend with drinking or drug problem, prone to violence). Children from his previous marriage cannot believe anyone could even accuse their father of sexually abusing JBR. No history there. I believe past actions predict future behavior.

Whoever did this is not a stranger to violence, and they had a criminal mind, and knew about things like stun guns, breaking and entering, and how to make a garrotte, and viewed extortion-type movies.
It doesn't have to be a known history, could have been his first kill, also sexual violence may not have been known by others in the family. My family was completely unaware that my uncle molested me. He didn't pick on my older sister, only me. I believe her death was accidental in the commission of John sexually abusing JB and went too far, so instead of seeking help, it was less damaging to the Ramsey's reputation to finish her off and blame it on someone else.

[LinasK]

that two parents who doted on their child were involved in garrotting her and watching while she tried to scratch the cord off her neck? That they stun gunned her...bashed her in the head.....and then sexually assaulted her with the end of a paintbrush? Two parents with no history whatsoever of violence...mistreating their children...criminal backgrounds--in fact the opposite is true.

Patsy did not watch extortion films--nor express any interest in these types of films.

Crimes at Christmas are nothing unusual--particularly burglaries. There's a slew of mystery books about murder at Christmas.....the Rue Morgue Mystery book shop (name has since changed) on Pearl Street--kitty corner from Pasta Jay's, might have even had a special display of mystery books with a Christmas theme.


A few points here...First I don't believe their behavior towards JB was "doting" on her- it was treating her as a trophy child, bleaching her hair blonde, putting on bright red lipstick, and parading her around as a minature grown woman in provocative costumes in beauty pageants is not my concept of doting on a child.
Second, I believe the order of the assault by John was sexual first including stun gun and garrote/paintbrush, then finishing her off by bashing her in the head when he realized his game had gone too far. He didn't set out to kill her, it was an accidental byproduct of his sick sexual game with her.
Third, they found books of the mystery/extortion type in John and Patsy's reading collection, which is where I believe Patsy came up with the phrase "foreign faction", from one of these novels.
If this was a drug-induced rage killing as you think, I believe there would have been far more violence and blood. Just look at Pamela Vitale's murder for example- I do believe that kid was on Meth when he killed her.

[Eagle1]

".... The screenwriters are a closer match to the style of speaking in the note......The article on the 2lst highlighting the "billionaire" John Ramsey could have been the trigger for a warped mind, and had his name in it, and reference to a Dixieland Jazz band. ....... Some loser with a history of crime and drug use makes more sense to me."

1. The screenwriters? I've been here all these years but don't recall ever hearing that. Care to elaborate just a bit, in case someone else missed it too? Thanks in advance.

2. Dixieland jazz band? You mean transient street musicians at the Mall?
JR never played in one himself?

Several things we keep forgetting I think point to someone else having done this, probably more than one, such as the young guy walking toward the house seen by neighbor Barnhill, the crime scene staging point to the R's, which they just would not do.

Involvement, maybe, depending on how many extras were actually there, whether it was all their "friends" with the matching scarves, and just maybe all of them, not just Patsy, had been up all night, reason they could get there so fast and early that morning.

LE probably didn't think to check if they were ALL wearing the previous night's clothing.

I think Burke was right that JonBenet was awake when they came home from the FW's, to walk up the stairs, and that she hadn't eaten her plate of cracked crab and stuff that Priscilla gave her, so they let her have a snack before she walked upstairs. Lou Smit I believe said there was a bowl on her bureau that had had pineapple in it, so if he's right, they may have given her some out of the bowl that was left out in the kitchen, and a smaller spoon. The large spoon was probably to dish her pineapple into a smaller bowl with.

[Zman]

1. The screenwriters? I've been here all these years but don't recall ever hearing that. Care to elaborate just a bit, in case someone else missed it too? Thanks in advance.

2. Dixieland jazz band? You mean transient street musicians at the Mall?
JR never played in one himself?

Several things we keep forgetting I think point to someone else having done this, probably more than one, such as the young guy walking toward the house seen by neighbor Barnhill, the crime scene staging point to the R's, which they just would not do.

Involvement, maybe, depending on how many extras were actually there, whether it was all their "friends" with the matching scarves, and just maybe all of them, not just Patsy, had been up all night, reason they could get there so fast and early that morning.

LE probably didn't think to check if they were ALL wearing the previous night's clothing.

I think Burke was right that JonBenet was awake when they came home from the FW's, to walk up the stairs, and that she hadn't eaten her plate of cracked crab and stuff that Priscilla gave her, so they let her have a snack before she walked upstairs. Lou Smit I believe said there was a bowl on her bureau that had had pineapple in it, so if he's right, they may have given her some out of the bowl that was left out in the kitchen, and a smaller spoon. The large spoon was probably to dish her pineapple into a smaller bowl with.
Once agian it just doesn't seem to matter.
Why would JR and PR lie about JBR being awake or asleep when they got home? If your going to lie then you must consider that lie to be very important to your case.

What major advantage is there in saying JBR was asleep as opposed to awake and then along with Burke put to bed within an hour or so?

And even if the your pineapple story above is true it doesn't convict them or even implicate them in the murder of their daughter.

Why wouldn't they just say we gave her some pineapple and put her to bed?

Again where is the advantage to the lie?

[Maikai]

1. The screenwriters? I've been here all these years but don't recall ever hearing that. Care to elaborate just a bit, in case someone else missed it too? Thanks in advance.

2. Dixieland jazz band? You mean transient street musicians at the Mall?
JR never played in one himself?

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/08051998-jbramerica-pic3.htm

Click on or paste link above....and then click on Photo album 3. There's pictures of the Dixieland Jazz band...also a photo of the newspaper article of the billion dollar success that was on page l of the Business section. JR said once that his intuition told him the article might not be a good idea and he wishes he would have listened to his instincts about publicizing the success. The band weren't transients. They were specifically hired for the Access celebration. They played at the Access offices....then went out and played while walking to the Boulderado.

As far as screenwriters---the note contains numerous references to extortion movies--not the exact quote, but similar. The writer of the ransom note copied lines and themes and incorporated them into the note.

[Maikai]

A few points here...First I don't believe their behavior towards JB was "doting" on her- it was treating her as a trophy child, bleaching her hair blonde, putting on bright red lipstick, and parading her around as a minature grown woman in provocative costumes in beauty pageants is not my concept of doting on a child.
Second, I believe the order of the assault by John was sexual first including stun gun and garrote/paintbrush, then finishing her off by bashing her in the head when he realized his game had gone too far. He didn't set out to kill her, it was an accidental byproduct of his sick sexual game with her.
Third, they found books of the mystery/extortion type in John and Patsy's reading collection, which is where I believe Patsy came up with the phrase "foreign faction", from one of these novels.
If this was a drug-induced rage killing as you think, I believe there would have been far more violence and blood. Just look at Pamela Vitale's murder for example- I do believe that kid was on Meth when he killed her.

JBR could be considered a trophy child---another reason parents like the Ramseys wouldn't brutally murder her. The beauty pageants weren't nearly as sexual as some indicate. There were different categories at different events---the show girl was a little over the top---we all know that. It's one of the main reasons some have crucified Patsy. Even if some think she was not involved at all, they condemn her for the beauty pageant participation--it very likely could have led a sick pedophile to do the crime. I think it's what may have made her a kidnapping victim--rich daddy, and trophy child. We don't know what may have been seen in the house while the perp stalked around---pictures? Crowns? Trophies?

The books are an urban legend. They didn't find extortion books or movies. And don't forget--they took the computers, and found NO traces of visits to kiddie porno sites, or other evidence JR had a sexual interest in little girls.

I don't know what a mind on drugs is capable of. I do know the Ramseys were right in the middle of an area that had increasing drug use.....crimes such as burglaries on an increase due to drug use...and plenty of transients--some of which were violent. I can see someone writing the note while high--and coming up with an idiotic kidnapping plan which wasn't thought out. Someone that had experience in breaking and entering to support their drug habit. Fencing stolen items and credit cards doesn't bring a lot of mone in. A $118,000 windfall for what they thought was a few hours work may have been the motive. I don't think the perp planned on killing JBR, but intended on taking her out of the home. He didn't use a killing weapon he brought in---but improvised in the basement, making the garrotte, which I think was originally intended as a leash.

[Jayelles]

to a point. Lawyering up tends to pit one side against another, and the lawyers tell their clients to "shut up" and let them handle it. On top of that, the BPD was embarrassed early on in the media---it was only a matter of days before fingers were being pointed at them for screwing up the crime scene that first day. There may have even been some legal concerns that the City would be sued. On top of that, the Ramseys not cozying up to Ellers may have been a real slap in the face, and they hired a powerful lawfirm. SO....IMO, hiding behind lawyers isn't always the answer. On the other hand, the BPD could have worked with the Ramseys attorneys, and compromised on the interviews and investigation, but both sides dug in fairly early, and the more they dug in, the greater jeopardy the Ramseys were in of being arrested..of losing Burke (visions of the Dowalibys)...of the City going after their assets if convicted--early on one of the DA's mentioned that if the suspect had money, they could go after it to pay for the investigation and trial.

And Madonna? Well, if I were her, I'd park anywhere I d#mn well pleased, too. Sounds like the ticket is less than putting up with a hassle of finding a parking place.
And you have proved my point exactly! The rich use their money to do as they please and buy their way out of any ensuing trouble. All that they think about is the "hassle" which they might be caused to them - whether it be to have to walk an extra 100 yards or to make the trip to the police station to help police investigating their daughter's brutal murder.

No matter to Madonna that her illegally parked car causes congestion and perhaps even an unnecessary delay for an ambulance or a fire engine (although I can imagine the scene if Madonna required an ambulance and it were delayed due to someone blocking a road with an illegally parked car!).

I think it is disgusting. I'd clamp her car so that she couldn't simply drive it off when it suited her.

Police investigating the murder of a defenceless and innocent child should NOT have to negotiate with her parents for an interview.

[Holdontoyourhat]

Once agian it just doesn't seem to matter.
Why would JR and PR lie about JBR being awake or asleep when they got home? If your going to lie then you must consider that lie to be very important to your case.

What major advantage is there in saying JBR was asleep as opposed to awake and then along with Burke put to bed within an hour or so?

And even if the your pineapple story above is true it doesn't convict them or even implicate them in the murder of their daughter.

Why wouldn't they just say we gave her some pineapple and put her to bed?

Again where is the advantage to the lie?
Give 'em a break, Zman. Force-fitting the R's into the mold of a sadistic child murderer isn't easy.

[Maikai]

And you have proved my point exactly! The rich use their money to do as they please and buy their way out of any ensuing trouble. All that they think about is the "hassle" which they might be caused to them - whether it be to have to walk an extra 100 yards or to make the trip to the police station to help police investigating their daughter's brutal murder.

No matter to Madonna that her illegally parked car causes congestion and perhaps even an unnecessary delay for an ambulance or a fire engine (although I can imagine the scene if Madonna required an ambulance and it were delayed due to someone blocking a road with an illegally parked car!).

I think it is disgusting. I'd clamp her car so that she couldn't simply drive it off when it suited her.

Police investigating the murder of a defenceless and innocent child should NOT have to negotiate with her parents for an interview.

There was no reason that the BPD couldn't have worked with the Ramseys through their attorneys....except to put out stories in the media that they weren't cooperating. BPD blew their chance of separating and questioning them the first day. What made them think they could then go back to square one and do it the right way? Too late for that...paricularly when they blew it the first day, and then jumped on the Ramseys as suspects right away.

The rich buy yachts, and luxurious homes and cars. Why shouldn't they buy the best legal defense money can buy? It's the American way! The Ramseys hired experts to help the police--they didn't know that would be insulting to the BPD. The BPD needed all the help they could get, and they should have taken it.

If the locals aren't addressing the problems Madonna is causing, it's not her fault....perhaps they need to boot the car or raise the fines.

[Jayelles]

There was no reason that the BPD couldn't have worked with the Ramseys through their attorneys....except to put out stories in the media that they weren't cooperating. BPD blew their chance of separating and questioning them the first day. What made them think they could then go back to square one and do it the right way? Too late for that...paricularly when they blew it the first day, and then jumped on the Ramseys as suspects right away.

The rich buy yachts, and luxurious homes and cars. Why shouldn't they buy the best legal defense money can buy? It's the American way! The Ramseys hired experts to help the police--they didn't know that would be insulting to the BPD. The BPD needed all the help they could get, and they should have taken it.

If the locals aren't addressing the problems Madonna is causing, it's not her fault....perhaps they need to boot the car or raise the fines.
It's not her fault for persistently breaking the law? You think her illegal parking habit is the responsibility of the people who are most inconvenienced by it?

Enlightening.

[narlacat]

Naaa, not enlightening, this is an American celeb wer'e talking about Jayelle's.
They think the laws dont apply to them.

[narlacat]

Once agian it just doesn't seem to matter.
Why would JR and PR lie about JBR being awake or asleep when they got home? If your going to lie then you must consider that lie to be very important to your case.

What major advantage is there in saying JBR was asleep as opposed to awake and then along with Burke put to bed within an hour or so?

And even if the your pineapple story above is true it doesn't convict them or even implicate them in the murder of their daughter.

Why wouldn't they just say we gave her some pineapple and put her to bed?

Again where is the advantage to the lie?
IMO They lied about JonBenet being awake when she got home because they didnt want to have to answer questions about what went on after they arrived home that night.
Easy. Everyone, including JonBenet was asleep. We were all asleep, didnt hear a thing.
They had to say they didn't know anything about the pineapple because they had already said she was asleep upon arriving home and didn't wake when they put her to bed.
You can't explain the pineapple away with...she would have gone with someone she trusted......everyone who they thought she may have trusted was cleared.....so that leaves a foreign faction member......why would she sit and eat pineapple with someone that is just about to brutally kill her?

[Eagle1]

As we've discussed before, probably JonBenet didn't eat much if any of the cracked crab that Priscilla made up a plate of for her. She wasn't feeling well that day, and hadn't she been lying down upstairs in Daphne's bed for a while? During the time the others were having their meal?

When they arrived home the child was probably hungry, and awake like Burke said, so they gave her some of her fave snack, using the big spoon to dish it into a smaller bowl which I believe Lou Smit said was on her bureau, a bowl that had contained pineapple. Okay, maybe they even took it up to her room where she was already in bed. Who knows? Anyway, her fingerprints weren't on the bowl with the big spoon that was sitting out in the kitchen.

I don't see how the pineapple proves anything or implicates anyone in particular. Maybe I'm just a bit brain dead because it's been a long day.

[Zman]

IMO They lied about JonBenet being awake when she got home because they didnt want to have to answer questions about what went on after they arrived home that night.
Easy. Everyone, including JonBenet was asleep. We were all asleep, didnt hear a thing.
They had to say they didn't know anything about the pineapple because they had already said she was asleep upon arriving home and didn't wake when they put her to bed.
You can't explain the pineapple away with...she would have gone with someone she trusted......everyone who they thought she may have trusted was cleared.....so that leaves a foreign faction member......why would she sit and eat pineapple with someone that is just about to brutally kill her?They had to answer those questions anyway.

Or maybe they just don't know anything about the pineapple, if thats even what is in the bowl. You assume it was pineapple that was in the bowl just because LE said so?

We don't know when she ate the pineapple, she could of ate it at the Whites or at one of the stops on the way home.

[narlacat]

They had to answer those questions anyway.

Or maybe they just don't know anything about the pineapple, if thats even what is in the bowl. You assume it was pineapple that was in the bowl just because LE said so?

We don't know when she ate the pineapple, she could of ate it at the Whites or at one of the stops on the way home.
Wrong zman.
She didn't eat the pineapple at the White's, they said so.
She didn't eat it at one of the stops on the way home. They didn't stay when they dropped the gifts off, they wanted to get home because they had a big trip the next day with an early start. The Stines say she was asleep in the car when their gifts were dropped off and I believe that was their last stop before home.
I assume it's pineapple that's in the bowl yes, because the autopsy showed pineapple had been consumed.

[Zman]

Wrong zman.
She didn't eat the pineapple at the White's, they said so.
She didn't eat it at one of the stops on the way home. They didn't stay when they dropped the gifts off, they wanted to get home because they had a big trip the next day with an early start. The Stines say she was asleep in the car when their gifts were dropped off and I believe that was their last stop before home.
I assume it's pineapple that's in the bowl yes, because the autopsy showed pineapple had been consumed.
Who said she did not eat pineapple at the Whites, who is they in this case?

Which is it narlacat? First you tell me they were lying about her being asleep now you tell me the Stines say she was asleep in the car.

I guess it just depends on which point your trying to prove.

The autopsy said possibly pineapple in her system, only LE claims the bowl contained pineapple.

[Eagle1]

The Stines could be lying, sure. Everybody could be.

Okay, the Med.Examiner and LE said it appeared she ate pineapple?

That's about all we can be sure of, right? It was reportedly her fave snack, so that's probably true. Some speculated it may have been lemon, who probably just wanted to prolong the discussion. I can't picture the child eating lemon pulp, even if it was served with the cracked crab at the Whites', which I doubt she ate any of. Priscilla did fix up a plate for her because, I think JBR was upstairs lying down on Daphne's bed, not feeling well, when the others were eating. Can't swear to anything, of course. That's just the preponderance of years of discussions.

[narlacat]

Who said she did not eat pineapple at the Whites, who is they in this case?

Which is it narlacat? First you tell me they were lying about her being asleep now you tell me the Stines say she was asleep in the car.

I guess it just depends on which point your trying to prove.

The autopsy said possibly pineapple in her system, only LE claims the bowl contained pineapple.Ok sorry perhaps I'm not being clear enough.
The White's said so. They did not serve pineapple at the party.
Susan Stine said JonBenet was alseep in the car. From a distance I believe, not close up.
John and Patsy say she did not wake up when they carried her inside, nor did she wake up when put to bed and had clothes changed.
My point was zman, they didn't stop at any of the places they were dropping the gifts off at...for her to have eaten pineappale on the way home.
She may have been alseep in the car, but I think she woke up upon arrival at home. Burke says she walked up the stairs by herself and was awake.

[Moab]

The Stines could be lying, sure. Everybody could be.

Okay, the Med.Examiner and LE said it appeared she ate pineapple?

That's about all we can be sure of, right? It was reportedly her fave snack, so that's probably true. Some speculated it may have been lemon, who probably just wanted to prolong the discussion. I can't picture the child eating lemon pulp, even if it was served with the cracked crab at the Whites', which I doubt she ate any of. Priscilla did fix up a plate for her because, I think JBR was upstairs lying down on Daphne's bed, not feeling well, when the others were eating. Can't swear to anything, of course. That's just the preponderance of years of discussions.
There was never any report of JBR upstairs in bed at the Whites. The story was she wasn't feeling well at home during Christmas day, not that evening.
JBR and Daphne were down on the floor at the Whites playing with a jewlrey kit, and some of the adults were making jewelry with them.

[Jayelles]

Ok sorry perhaps I'm not being clear enough.
The White's said so. They did not serve pineapple at the party.
Susan Stine said JonBenet was alseep in the car. From a distance I believe, not close up.
John and Patsy say she did not wake up when they carried her inside, nor did she wake up when put to bed and had clothes changed.
My point was zman, they didn't stop at any of the places they were dropping the gifts off at...for her to have eaten pineappale on the way home.
She may have been alseep in the car, but I think she woke up upon arrival at home. Burke says she walked up the stairs by herself and was awake.
It is an indisputable FACT that one of the last things that jonBenet ate was fresh pineapple. Lou Smit confirmed this in his interview with John Ramsey (courtesy of jameson) - he called it the "big bugaboo". It is also an indisputable FACT that there was a bowl of fresh pineapple lying on the Ramsey kitchen table.

The Stines say they did not serve pineapple on Christmas Day.

It appears to be well confirmed that the Ramseys left for the Whites at around 4pm and returned home again around 9pm.

Science therefore tells us that JonBenet either ate the pineapple when she returned home and was killed a few hours later - thus disputing the Ramsey claims that she was "zonked" and did not awaken from falling asleep in the car.

OR

She ate the pineapple at home BEFORE going to the Whites and was killed VERY SOON after returning home - within the period of time that John Ramsey claimes to have been up making a model with Burke.

That is why the pineapple is a bugaboo.

However Narlacat, what you will find is that ardent Ramsey supporters will argue that the Whites must be lying about not serving pineapple (despite the fact that no-one who was there seems to have claimed that it WAS served) - before they will acknowledge that a bowl of fresh pineapple sitting on the Ramsey kitchen table is the likely source of the bugaboo.

To some people, the Ramseys speak only the Truth - if they said it, it must be so and the Ramseys say that JonBenet didn't eat pineapple therefore everyone else must be lying. Maybe it's all part of this great Illuminati Conspiracy ;-)

[Jayelles]

Who said she did not eat pineapple at the Whites, who is they in this case?

Which is it narlacat? First you tell me they were lying about her being asleep now you tell me the Stines say she was asleep in the car.

I guess it just depends on which point your trying to prove.

The autopsy said possibly pineapple in her system, only LE claims the bowl contained pineapple.
The Autopsy did not include the findings of the lab analysis of the stomach contents. LE made their claims based upon subsequent lab reports. Lou Smit is a Ramsey supporter but even he acknowledges that the substance is pineapple.

No-one needs to be trying to prove anything to accept this as fact. It speaks for itself.

[Nuisanceposter]

And if she ate pineapple that no one served but was at her home and no one, even staunch Ramsey backer Lou Smit contends that, that also must mean the Rams are lying about the course of events, such as her eating pineapple, Christmas night. They wouldn't lie to cover for an intruder, only for themselves. One of them killed JonBenet.

[Eagle1]

Anyone remember this? Priscilla made up a plate for JonBenet. Not that it's any big enough deal to argue about. I know she was playing on the floor later. That doesn't mean she wasn't at some point lying on Daphne's bed for a while.

If the R's deliberately lied about JonBenet not waking up after the trip to the Whites', how many things could that mean?

For one, maybe some of the friends came over for a sort of after-glow game-playing because their house was a bit larger than the Whites'.

They were all there awfully early the next morning, so I'm suggesting that just possibly all of them were "up all night", and "still wearing last evening's clothes". If everything else is a lie, and I grant that most everything probably is, then their claim that only the family of 4 were in the house most likely is also a big lie. Even if all my kids had been kidnapped, I don't think it would occur to me to phone all my friends that early in the morning!
Would you? If the friends were already there, then claiming to have phoned them would be a plausible coverup lie, just like everything else.

There were some bicycle tracks outside, so someone may have left that way. A paper boy would take a whirl through someone's yard that early, I don't think. And I don't remember the source of this, probably PMPT.

The more I think about it, the more plausible it seems, at least to me, that very likely all those friends were already there! And maybe some others who'd left early. If not all of them, at least an (invited?) intruder or two.

Editing to add that I haven't yet watched much of the famous FBI agent's video which must be re The Illuminatti. I haven't watched yet because it's 75 minutes. But why would any of us need to try to cover for them, unless we have some kind of stake in it, unless we or someone we know may be involved in whatever it's about? I'm sure everyone's at least noticed there's a new thread about a video, and FBI and CIA covering up info instead of seeking it. If Gunderson maybe lost his job over this, something must be up. (I didn't say he lost his job, don't know. I haven't watched it yet.)

[Nuisanceposter]

I have always thought it a bit odd that they mention Priscilla White having made a plate especially for JonBenet, like they have to make sure we know that. Wasn't everyone invited over served crab that night, since that was the White's traditional Christmas dinner? Was there some chance that JonBenet wouldn't get any, hence the need to prepare a special plate just for her?

So who was there was police arrived that morning? I would assume that Patsy would call 911 before she would call her friends, and that police would arrive first since the friends would have been abed and need time to get ready and dressed before going to the Ramsey's house that early. Were they wearing the same clothes as the night before when they arrived? I would assume all of their alibis were checked, and police ascertained that everyone was where they claimed they were Christmas night.

[Zman]

The Autopsy did not include the findings of the lab analysis of the stomach contents. LE made their claims based upon subsequent lab reports. Lou Smit is a Ramsey supporter but even he acknowledges that the substance is pineapple.

No-one needs to be trying to prove anything to accept this as fact. It speaks for itself.
Which substance the one in JBR's stomach or the food in the bowl on the table?

Well Lou Smit also thinks the R's are innocent. Should we accept that as fact? Maybe he did not look into the pineapple evidence as well as he should of.

I sure won't beleive any test was done until someone lets us see it.

Just like the fingerprints on the bowl right? PR and BR or so we are told. I'm willing to bet no such prints were ever lifted.

The obvious attempt to frame the R's for this murder by a embarrassed police department is pretty much what I see.

[deanws]

Which substance the one in JBR's stomach or the food in the bowl on the table?

Well Lou Smit also thinks the R's are innocent. Should we accept that as fact? Maybe he did not look into the pineapple evidence as well as he should of.

I sure won't beleive any test was done until someone lets us see it.

Just like the fingerprints on the bowl right? PR and BR or so we are told. I'm willing to bet no such prints were ever lifted.

The obvious attempt to frame the R's for this murder by a embarrassed police department is pretty much what I see.You may borrow my glasses Zman.:D

[txsvicki]

IMO They lied about JonBenet being awake when she got home because they didnt want to have to answer questions about what went on after they arrived home that night.
Easy. Everyone, including JonBenet was asleep. We were all asleep, didnt hear a thing.
They had to say they didn't know anything about the pineapple because they had already said she was asleep upon arriving home and didn't wake when they put her to bed.
You can't explain the pineapple away with...she would have gone with someone she trusted......everyone who they thought she may have trusted was cleared.....so that leaves a foreign faction member......why would she sit and eat pineapple with someone that is just about to brutally kill her?

I'd never believe that a six year old would stay asleep when being carried in from the car and then put to bed after only falling asleep during a short car ride home. Out of raising 4 kids and 5 grandkids, I've never seen a child that old be that tired out, only babies.

[Maikai]

The Autopsy did not include the findings of the lab analysis of the stomach contents. LE made their claims based upon subsequent lab reports. Lou Smit is a Ramsey supporter but even he acknowledges that the substance is pineapple.

No-one needs to be trying to prove anything to accept this as fact. It speaks for itself.

The pineapple was found in the upper part of the small intestine, or duodenum area. Food found in the stomach would be relevant, like in the case of Nicole Simpson. Much ado about nothing when it comes to the pineapple---what was left was the fiber in it, that doesn't get digested, and she could have eaten it earlier in the day.

[Nuisanceposter]

I'd never believe that a six year old would stay asleep when being carried in from the car and then put to bed after only falling asleep during a short car ride home. Out of raising 4 kids and 5 grandkids, I've never seen a child that old be that tired out, only babies.
Exactly. My experience with my own children is that they fall asleep in the car, and wake up when you pull into your driveway, completely refreshed and ready to play. Very irritating when you're tired yourself and want to go to bed, as I'm sure both John and Patsy were feeling. Especially when they had to get up early the next morning to fly to Charlevoix.

[aussiesheila]

It was an 8 inch long fracture of her skull. She hit something hard or something hard hit her. Your skull is pretty darn tough and doesn't crack 8 inches from being shaken.
The injury just did not break the skin. It depends on what did the damage as to whether the skin breaks.I agree, and it seems to me that a baseball bat swung with a considerable force by a fairly strong person is the most likely cause of the damage

[aussiesheila]

Yes pineapple is tough to explain. But it's tough no matter what side your on. It makes no sense for a stranger or her parents to give her pineapple for any reason. However we don't even know if it was pineapple in that bowl. We only know LE said there was. And they have said many things that seem to be only an attempt to get the R's to slip or admit guilt under pressure.Here is a reason that makes sense - Maybe some pedophiles who were planning a session of sexual abuse with JonBenet that night laced the pineapple with some kind of stupefying drug so that after eating it JonBenet would become relaxed and more willing to submit to the abuse and only have a dim memory of it once it was over. Maybe around midnight one of the pedophiles, (Santa) brought the pineapple with him in a plastic bag which he emptied into a bowl in the kitchen and encouraged JonBenet to eat.

[Tricia]

Here is a reason that makes sense - Maybe some pedophiles who were planning a session of sexual abuse with JonBenet that night laced the pineapple with some kind of stupefying drug so that after eating it JonBenet would become relaxed and more willing to submit to the abuse and only have a dim memory of it once it was over. Maybe around midnight one of the pedophiles, (Santa) brought the pineapple with him in a plastic bag which he emptied into a bowl in the kitchen and encouraged JonBenet to eat.

Santa has been cleared.

There was no trace of any drug found in JBR, the pineapple in her digestive track nor in the bowl.

Aussiesheila, please check your facts before you accuse an innocent man. A man who has been cleared. A man whose DNA does not match. A man whose writing does not match the ransom note.

[aussiesheila]

Santa has been cleared.

There was no trace of any drug found in JBR, the pineapple in her digestive track nor in the bowl.

Aussiesheila, please check your facts before you accuse an innocent man. A man who has been cleared. A man whose DNA does not match. A man whose writing does not match the ransom note.
Tricia what facts do you have to support your claim that Santa has been cleared?

I know there was no trace of any drug found in JBR, the pineapple in her digestive track nor in the bowl. I believe that was because there was no drug testing performed on any of those items.

The fact that his DNA does not match the DNA on JonBenet's panties or under her fingernails and that his handwriting does not match the ransom note does not clear him of having been present in the Ramsey house in the basement at the time of her murder, IMO.

[Nuisanceposter]

Poor Santa Bill. He'd had heart surgery just four months prior to JonBenet's murder, and he wouldn't have been strong enough to do to her what was done to her. I know that from my own experiences with my father's heart surgery. What, do you think he was standing there watching, helping, plotting? I just love these conspiracy stories...as if Patsy would go along with any of the ones I've heard theorized here. IMO, she wrote the RN, with no one's help except a vivid imagination, a bunch of movies, and possibly her husband.

[Zman]

IMO, she wrote the RN, with no one's help except a vivid imagination, a bunch of movies, and possibly her husband.
Sometimes you people really crack me up.

JR and PR have just murdered their only daughter accidently or from abuse, take your pick.

And they are so heartless that they are not even upset about it.

In fact PR cooly begins to write a RN for a body they don't plan to remove from the house, and asks JR to think of some of his faviorte lines from some hostage movies they have seen in the past. I wonder which ones they didn't use and what the criteria was?

Maybe they made some popcorn and watched a couple just to make sure they got the lines right.

Oh yea Patsy better put lots of disgusting threats to harm JBR too. Because "don't call the police or we will kill your daughter" is just so passe.

Can you picture that?
I can't.

[LinasK]

Sometimes you people really crack me up.

JR and PR have just murdered their only daughter accidently or from abuse, take your pick.

And they are so heartless that they are not even upset about it.

In fact PR cooly begins to write a RN for a body they don't plan to remove from the house, and asks JR to think of some of his faviorte lines from some hostage movies they have seen in the past. I wonder which ones they didn't use and what the criteria was?

Maybe they made some popcorn and watched a couple just to make sure they got the lines right.

Oh yea Patsy better put lots of disgusting threats to harm JBR too. Because "don't call the police or we will kill your daughter" is just so passe.

Can you picture that?
I can't.
Yeah I can, but I think it's slightly different than your version. I think John killed her accidentally while sexually abusing her. I also think Patsy got her terminology for the ransom note from their crime novels, not from a movie. But you got it right that the Ramseys are heartless, IMO!

[aussiesheila]

Poor Santa Bill. He'd had heart surgery just four months prior to JonBenet's murder, and he wouldn't have been strong enough to do to her what was done to her. I know that from my own experiences with my father's heart surgery. What, do you think he was standing there watching, helping, plotting? I just love these conspiracy stories...as if Patsy would go along with any of the ones I've heard theorized here. IMO, she wrote the RN, with no one's help except a vivid imagination, a bunch of movies, and possibly her husband.Nuisanceposter, I am presuming this was written in response to my post 61 so I will reply.

OK, so he has had heart surgery so I don't think he would have been the one to have swung the implement that cracked open JonBenet's skull or to have wielded the stun gun.

Yes I do think he was standing there watching, helping, participating, fondling, enjoying during the session of sexual abuse of JonBenet in the basement right up to the moment of her death.

Prior to that I think he was the first to arrive that night, having been picked up from his home and driven there by CW, let in through the kitchen door by Patsy and then feeding JonBenet (and maybe Patsy) the (drugged) pineapple and then encouraging Patsy to go to sleep.

As I do not believe he was planning any killling, I think his plotting came later in that he was party to the original coverup plan of making it look like a kidnapping.

I think he was the one who redressed and wrapped his little angel's body in her white blanket and carried her to the cellar.

IMO Patsy WOULD go along with the coverup once she became aware that JonBenet was already dead. I believe this to be the case because I think that Patsy had known all along that her daughter was being sexually abused, yet had allowed it to continue for years and IMO she would not want this to be publicly revealed nor would she want to lose the friendship of those involved in the abuse.

IMO, Patsy wrote the RN, with help from the coverup mastermind plus a vivid imagination, some pent up rage directed against her husband who spent more time at his job than with his family, but most definitely WITHOUT his involvement or knowledge. IMO John was asleep that entire night between the hours of 11 pm and 5.30 am and knew absolutely NOTHING about the prior sexual abuse or the planned activity for that evening.

[Tricia]

Sometimes you people really crack me up.

JR and PR have just murdered their only daughter accidently or from abuse, take your pick.

And they are so heartless that they are not even upset about it.

In fact PR cooly begins to write a RN for a body they don't plan to remove from the house, and asks JR to think of some of his faviorte lines from some hostage movies they have seen in the past. I wonder which ones they didn't use and what the criteria was?

Maybe they made some popcorn and watched a couple just to make sure they got the lines right.

Oh yea Patsy better put lots of disgusting threats to harm JBR too. Because "don't call the police or we will kill your daughter" is just so passe.

Can you picture that?
I can't.

Zman, take away much of the sarcasm and you are right on the money.

Yes, one or both parents has guilty knowledge of their daughter's death.

Patsy wrote the note.

Both of them have ice for blood.

Good job. Thank you.

[Holdontoyourhat]

Zman, take away much of the sarcasm and you are right on the money.

Yes, one or both parents has guilty knowledge of their daughter's death.

Patsy wrote the note.

Both of them have ice for blood.

Good job. Thank you.
I have learned a few things I didn't know by joining this forum this year. Maybe you could explain what 'guilty knowledge' is. Does that mean they are guilty of sadistic child murder, or do they know who the sadistic child murderer is?

[solidarity]

And if she ate pineapple that no one served but was at her home and no one, even staunch Ramsey backer Lou Smit contends that, that also must mean the Rams are lying about the course of events, such as her eating pineapple, Christmas night. They wouldn't lie to cover for an intruder, only for themselves. One of them killed JonBenet.

If JBR had pineapple traces in her stomach, and the Ramseys insist they did not feed her that pineapple, I don't understand why you necessarily lead to the conclusion that the Ramseys must've lied about it to cover up their own steps. Isn't it POSSIBLE that the little girl was indeed half asleep when they got home and was thus put to bed, without having had much to eat. A few hours later JBR wakes up, feels hungry, and walks to the kitchen to grab a snack for herself (without her parents knowledge). She was old enough to do that. In this scenario, the pineapple was indeed in her stomach but it does not necessarily mean that the parents were lying about anything. They simply did not hear her get up in the middle of the night. Isn't this POSSIBLE.

[Zman]

If JBR had pineapple traces in her stomach, and the Ramseys insist they did not feed her that pineapple, I don't understand why you necessarily lead to the conclusion that the Ramseys must've lied about it to cover up their own steps. Isn't it POSSIBLE that the little girl was indeed half asleep when they got home and was thus put to bed, without having had much to eat. A few hours later JBR wakes up, feels hungry, and walks to the kitchen to grab a snack for herself (without her parents knowledge). She was old enough to do that. In this scenario, the pineapple was indeed in her stomach but it does not necessarily mean that the parents were lying about anything. They simply did not hear her get up in the middle of the night. Isn't this POSSIBLE.
According to her parents it's not possible.
At the least highly unlikely.
I'm betting she ate the pineapple somewhere else along the way and the bowl on the kitchen table had something else in it. LE took a shot at lying about what was in the bowl in hopes of a confession.

[TLynn]

:laugh: Lou's theory is that the pineapple was in a tuberware in JonBenet's bedroom - she woke up that night and ate it from the tuberware. (did I spell tuberware right? Looks strange)

[narlacat]

If JBR had pineapple traces in her stomach, and the Ramseys insist they did not feed her that pineapple, I don't understand why you necessarily lead to the conclusion that the Ramseys must've lied about it to cover up their own steps. Isn't it POSSIBLE that the little girl was indeed half asleep when they got home and was thus put to bed, without having had much to eat. A few hours later JBR wakes up, feels hungry, and walks to the kitchen to grab a snack for herself (without her parents knowledge). She was old enough to do that. In this scenario, the pineapple was indeed in her stomach but it does not necessarily mean that the parents were lying about anything. They simply did not hear her get up in the middle of the night. Isn't this POSSIBLE.
Well, not according to the timeline of death.
If JonBenet got home at 9 30 10 like her parents say, and was put promptly to bed like you say, then a few hours later gets up for a snack of pineapple....then the time is now 1 am....that is roughly the time she is thought to have died. She would have had to have died alot later than 1 in that theory and that wouldnt have given the body enough time to enter rigor mortis, the state in which she was found.

[narlacat]

:laugh: Lou's theory is that the pineapple was in a tuberware in JonBenet's bedroom - she woke up that night and ate it from the tuberware. (did I spell tuberware right? Looks strange)
It's tupperware TLynn. Close enough!!

[narlacat]

According to her parents it's not possible.
At the least highly unlikely.
I'm betting she ate the pineapple somewhere else along the way and the bowl on the kitchen table had something else in it. LE took a shot at lying about what was in the bowl in hopes of a confession.Would you stop saying that!
She didn't eat the pineapple 'somewhere else along the way', she ate it at home from the bowl which contained PINEAPPLE Zman.
According to you, LE lied about everything in order to get a confession. Very convenient.

[Maikai]

It had already been churned in the stomach and was on its way down through the digestive tract in the upper part of the small intestine. All that was left was the fiber, which would not be digested. There was also some matter they couldn't determine what it was--safe to say it didn't have fiber in it. IMO, the pineapple urban legend was nothing more than a lame attempt by the BPD to trip up the Ramseys. They know it could have been eaten earlier. For the most part JBR's stomach was clear of food.

[Zman]

Would you stop saying that!
She didn't eat the pineapple 'somewhere else along the way', she ate it at home from the bowl which contained PINEAPPLE Zman.
According to you, LE lied about everything in order to get a confession. Very convenient.
You can tell that LE really has no evidence against the R's. So their only choice is find ways to get a confession. Even if it means stretching the turth a little. It is not a rare practice by LE. If they had any real evidence the R's would be in jail.

Well according to you the R's lied about everything.

Very Convenient.

[narlacat]

Touche.
I do think the Ramsey's have lied.
In between lying ,they can't remember anything.
I'll go through one of their interviews and show you just how many times they said they can't remember. It is ridiculous.

[deanws]

It had already been churned in the stomach and was on its way down through the digestive tract in the upper part of the small intestine. All that was left was the fiber, which would not be digested. There was also some matter they couldn't determine what it was--safe to say it didn't have fiber in it. IMO, the pineapple urban legend was nothing more than a lame attempt by the BPD to trip up the Ramseys. They know it could have been eaten earlier. For the most part JBR's stomach was clear of food.No urban legend here! From Patsy's own mouth she said that JB had cracked crab at the White's house. It clearly states that there was something else besides crab in her. Here is the autposy..knock yourself out. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet1.html

[aussiesheila]

Touche.

I'll go through one of their interviews and show you just how many times they said they can't remember. It is ridiculous.OK Narla, please do this with one of John's interviews. I would be very interested to have drawn to my attention even just one instance where he lied or gave an evasive answer. Don't bother about doing it with Patsy. I'm quite convinced she lied and evaded answers constantly.

[deanws]

OK Narla, please do this with one of John's interviews. I would be very interested to have drawn to my attention even just one instance where he lied or gave an evasive answer. Don't bother about doing it with Patsy. I'm quite convinced she lied and evaded answers constantly.Ok...on the other hand ask yourself why she lied? To cover. Only reason! It was a Ramsey family member that killed that child. I am not saying on purpose. I do think it was an accident. But never the less...a R killed her.

[deanws]

Tricia what facts do you have to support your claim that Santa has been cleared?

I know there was no trace of any drug found in JBR, the pineapple in her digestive track nor in the bowl. I believe that was because there was no drug testing performed on any of those items.

The fact that his DNA does not match the DNA on JonBenet's panties or under her fingernails and that his handwriting does not match the ransom note does not clear him of having been present in the Ramsey house in the basement at the time of her murder, IMO.Read the autopsy. There were toxins tested. No drugs. PEROID.

[Zman]

Ok...on the other hand ask yourself why she lied? To cover. Only reason! It was a Ramsey family member that killed that child. I am not saying on purpose. I do think it was an accident. But never the less...a R killed her.
Please state one PR lie for us.

[Brefie]

Please state one PR lie for us.

"Pageants were just a fun thing that we sometimes did on weekend"

CLEARLY A LIE!

[Maikai]

No urban legend here! From Patsy's own mouth she said that JB had cracked crab at the White's house. It clearly states that there was something else besides crab in her. Here is the autposy..knock yourself out. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet1.html

in the stomach could have been the digested cracked crab--or something else she had at the White's, that didn't contain fiber. The stomach is like a mixmaster---it churns the food and it doesn't go on down the rest of the digestive track until it's ready--different types have different digestion times.
Nutruients are absorbed from the small intestine....fiber doesn't digest.

The vegetable/fruit matter most likely was eaten earlier.

[Zman]

"Pageants were just a fun thing that we sometimes did on weekend"

CLEARLY A LIE!Where is the lie?

[Brefie]

Where is the lie?

If you can't see the lie in that, I won't bother explaining it.

Who has time?

[Holdontoyourhat]

If you can't see the lie in that, I won't bother explaining it.

Who has time?
I don't see a lie in there either. Besides, pageants aren't illegal. Child murder is.

[narlacat]

OK Narla, please do this with one of John's interviews. I would be very interested to have drawn to my attention even just one instance where he lied or gave an evasive answer. Don't bother about doing it with Patsy. I'm quite convinced she lied and evaded answers constantly.Aussie
Here are some of John's evasive answers.
4/97 interview.

TT: And you guys have kind of separate bathrooms there, you guys are getting ready about the same time then?

JR: Uh, I don’t really remember
TT: Okay. You came to the top of the stairs after helping Burke get ready for bed, do you recall whether Patsy was in bed at that time?

JR: I don’t remember, one way or the other.
remember which one it was, I don’t read them for very long.
TT: Okay. When you guys first got home that night, were there any lights on in the house that you can remember?

JR: Uh, not that I can remember
TT: Okay. Were you in JonBenet’s room when Patsy got her bedclothes on?
JR: No, I don’t think so, not that I can remember
TT: John, do you remember what Burke wore to bed that night?

JR: Oh, not specifically. He would have worn pajamas, but I don’t remember which ones because he usually mis-matches

TT: Okay. Did Patsy pull back the bed covers or anything, or just lay her right on top of the bedspread of hers?

JR: Uh, I don’t remember exactly
TT: Okay. Does she have one of those plug into the wall type night-lights in her bedroom any way (inaudible). . .

JR: Uh not that I recall
ST: Did she show the note on the second floor landing?

JR: I don’t remember
TT: OK. You run down stairs and about where was Patsy at when she was running up the stairs?

JR: Well, I don’t remember exactly,
TT: OK. Hadn’t moved at all from where he was at. OK. And you checked on Burke before the 911 call? Is that how you did, you went to JonBenet’s bedroom and then to Burke’s? How’d that all play out?

JR: I don’t remember
TT: Did you help burke get dressed that morning or . . .

JR: I don’t remember how Burke got dressed.
JR: I’m all right.

TT: I know this is (inaudible) after you found JonBenet, and (inaudible) if you would, where was Fleet at when that happened?

JR: I don’t remember.
ST: And did you turn the light on?

JR: Probably, I don’t remember
ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR: In fact, I don’t remember.
ST: OK. And then moved to your daughter. Did Fleet accompany you into that room?

JR: I don’t remember
ST: OK. Do you recall when you went up the stairs, Fleet being upstairs at that point?

JR: No, I don’t remember
ST: And what did you use to break the pane?

JR: Ah, I don’t remember. Might have been my foot, I don’t know
ST: Did you remove that whole grate off onto the, off the well, to jump down there and get in?

JR: Ah, probably. I don’t remember.
TT: Do you recall whether she had make-up on, hair brushed out and everything, when she came up and was yelling at you?

JR: I don’t remember

TT: OK. You remember any lights on in the basement when you went down the first time?

JR: Ah, no, not specifically, I don’t I mean, I don’t remember if any were on the first time

[Linda7NJ]

WOW! I remember traumatic events like it was yesterday....every detail...in slow motion!

[Zman]

WOW! I remember traumatic events like it was yesterday....every detail...in slow motion!
Maybe, but I wonder if it would match everyone else's version.


And the real funny thing here is none of these questions asked by LE have anything to do with finding who murdered JBR.

Okay. Did Patsy pull back the bed covers or anything, or just lay her right on top of the bedspread of hers?
Theres the case cracker for sure.

OK. You run down stairs and about where was Patsy at when she was running up the stairs?

If we could just find the answer to this burning question.

Did you help burke get dressed that morning or .

If only John could remember these most important facts.

Also I'd like to know these things...............




What kind of toothpaste do you use John?

Now do you remember if you combed your hair like ususal or did you do something different with it?

Did you run down the stairs or did you jog?

Do you remember how you felt the first time you saw the note?

Did you remember if PR had her makeup on? Hair combed. Teeth Brushed. How was her breath? Any sleepers in her eye's John? Broken paint brush handle in her hand maybe?
Did Patsy offer you any pineapple that morning?

Did Burke have is underware on inside out when he went to bed?

Any dustbunnies around that you noticed John?

Does your car have leather interior?

[Linda7NJ]

Anyone who has ever watched a trial, or given a deposition knows they are chock full of stupid boring nit picking questions! But they have a purpose.

[Zman]

Anyone who has ever watched a trial, or given a deposition knows they are chock full of stupid boring nit picking questions! But they have a purpose.
And anyone who listens to the answers is sure to here a lot of Im not sure's and I don't remember. I don't recall.

Remember our former President and First Lady.

But these questions are meaningless.

If you can tell me what purpose the serve than go ahead.

[Linda7NJ]

For one, when they questioned Patsy they could have "stories" to compare.

Inconsistencies can break a case. Separate them, question them and compare.

[deanws]

Please state one PR lie for us.We have already had this discussion Zman. Use the search function.

[Zman]

We have already had this discussion Zman. Use the search function.I've been watching these boards forever. Never saw anyone but FW (can I still use FW?)caught in a lie. Only someones opinion of a lie. I'd love to find a lie that I could document.

Then again my suspicions of who runs/supports these boards and why they really do and why they are so overwhelmingly anti-R would probably get me kicked off for good.

[aussiesheila]

Ok...on the other hand ask yourself why she lied? To cover. Only reason! It was a Ramsey family member that killed that child. I am not saying on purpose. I do think it was an accident. But never the less...a R killed her.deandaniellws,

I don't want to ask myself why Patsy lied. I know why Patsy lied.

I asked Narlacat to post an instance where JOHN lied or gave an evasive answer. I don't think she or anyone else can because there isn't one.

[aussiesheila]

Read the autopsy. There were toxins tested. No drugs. PEROID.I have read the autopsy. It said they tested for alcohol and drugs and they recorded none detected. That means what it says - none detected. It does not mean "there is no way the victim would have ingested any drug of any description within 3 hours of death because if she had we would have detected it". It does not.

There could have been some drug ingested at 11 pm and largely metabolised away by 2 am, and further degraded before testing occurred another 8 hours later so that nothing showed up in the test. Or it could mean that they didn't do the specific test designed to detect the drug that was ingested.

[aussiesheila]

Maybe, but I wonder if it would match everyone else's version.
Oh Zman, it's worth wading through all these posts just to pick up on the little gem replies you come up with every now and then

[aussiesheila]

Aussie
Here are some of John's evasive answers.
4/97 interview.

TT: And you guys have kind of separate bathrooms there, you guys are getting ready about the same time then?

JR: Uh, I don’t really remember
TT: Okay. You came to the top of the stairs after helping Burke get ready for bed, do you recall whether Patsy was in bed at that time?

JR: I don’t remember, one way or the other.
remember which one it was, I don’t read them for very long.
TT: Okay. When you guys first got home that night, were there any lights on in the house that you can remember?

JR: Uh, not that I can remember
TT: Okay. Were you in JonBenet’s room when Patsy got her bedclothes on?
JR: No, I don’t think so, not that I can remember
TT: John, do you remember what Burke wore to bed that night?

JR: Oh, not specifically. He would have worn pajamas, but I don’t remember which ones because he usually mis-matches

TT: Okay. Did Patsy pull back the bed covers or anything, or just lay her right on top of the bedspread of hers?

JR: Uh, I don’t remember exactly
TT: Okay. Does she have one of those plug into the wall type night-lights in her bedroom any way (inaudible). . .

JR: Uh not that I recall
ST: Did she show the note on the second floor landing?

JR: I don’t remember
TT: OK. You run down stairs and about where was Patsy at when she was running up the stairs?

JR: Well, I don’t remember exactly,
TT: OK. Hadn’t moved at all from where he was at. OK. And you checked on Burke before the 911 call? Is that how you did, you went to JonBenet’s bedroom and then to Burke’s? How’d that all play out?

JR: I don’t remember
TT: Did you help burke get dressed that morning or . . .

JR: I don’t remember how Burke got dressed.
JR: I’m all right.

TT: I know this is (inaudible) after you found JonBenet, and (inaudible) if you would, where was Fleet at when that happened?

JR: I don’t remember.
ST: And did you turn the light on?

JR: Probably, I don’t remember
ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR: In fact, I don’t remember.
ST: OK. And then moved to your daughter. Did Fleet accompany you into that room?

JR: I don’t remember
ST: OK. Do you recall when you went up the stairs, Fleet being upstairs at that point?

JR: No, I don’t remember
ST: And what did you use to break the pane?

JR: Ah, I don’t remember. Might have been my foot, I don’t know
ST: Did you remove that whole grate off onto the, off the well, to jump down there and get in?

JR: Ah, probably. I don’t remember.
TT: Do you recall whether she had make-up on, hair brushed out and everything, when she came up and was yelling at you?

JR: I don’t remember

TT: OK. You remember any lights on in the basement when you went down the first time?

JR: Ah, no, not specifically, I don’t I mean, I don’t remember if any were on the first time

OK Narlacat, so the examples you have given could all be quite reasonably considered to be truthful answers to all these questions. To all these questions he answers "I don't remember" or words to that effect. He probably doesn't remember and if he doesn't remember he is not lying or being evasive - he is telling the truth.

I have read all the transcripts of all his publically available interviews and there are plenty of questions, by far the majority, where he does remember and he does give an information laden answer.

So how about some examples of lies?

And please ... not the one about Burke being awake at the time of the 911 call ... there is no certainty that those voices heard on the tape were in fact there, or if they were there, that they were Ramsey voices and not unerased voices from a previous recording.

[mjak]

I'd never believe that a six year old would stay asleep when being carried in from the car and then put to bed after only falling asleep during a short car ride home. Out of raising 4 kids and 5 grandkids, I've never seen a child that old be that tired out, only babies.

I agree this does not make sense to me. Not only did the Ramseys say she stayed asleep whille they carried her in the house but also while she was
changed into sleeping clothes. I just came back from babysitting my nephews for the weekend and there is absolulty no way these guys would stay asleep as I carried them from a car or put them in sleep attire.

mjak

[ellen13]

Hi!

I'm new here! I finally found you guys! I didn't think there was anyone
left to talk about this case. I'm sure I'll make some mistakes along the
way and write about things you've already discussed. Just ignore
my boring posts, if that's the case.
I wanted to comment about the person who wrote that John and Patsy
don't seem to remember much when questioned, but sure have a lot
of vivid details. I went to Borders on Friday and found out the book,
The Death of Innocence is unavailable. Is it worth me buying from ebay?
Thanks,
Ellen13

[mjak]

Hi!

I'm new here! I finally found you guys! I didn't think there was anyone
left to talk about this case. I'm sure I'll make some mistakes along the
way and write about things you've already discussed. Just ignore
my boring posts, if that's the case.
I wanted to comment about the person who wrote that John and Patsy
don't seem to remember much when questioned, but sure have a lot
of vivid details. I went to Borders on Friday and found out the book,
The Death of Innocence is unavailable. Is it worth me buying from ebay?
Thanks,
Ellen13
No need to buy it. Go to your local library. IF they don't have a copy I am certain they can Inter Library Loan it for you from another library.

mjak

[ellen13]

I'm not sure how to post a new thread, but I was thinking about
something that I think Patsy should have been questioned about.
Isn't it true that Patsy and JB dressed alike? That meant that
that if PR was going to wear that red sweater again the day
after x-mas, then wouldn't
she have wanted JB to wear it again the next day? Wasn't it
bunched up in the bathroom? If she was going to wear it again,
wouldn't she have taken the time to hang it up so it didn't have
wrinkles?
Thanks!

[Nuisanceposter]

No need to buy it. Go to your local library. IF they don't have a copy I am certain they can Inter Library Loan it for you from another library.

mjak
Yeah, but I think it's worth it to own it if you're going to be referring back to it and quoting it like I do. My copy of DOI is dog-eared and underlined throughout. I also really like the photos of JonBenet.

I don't know if you would consider this lying (I do), but both John and Patsy told two different stories as to the events transpiring the night of the 25th and the morning of the 26th.

First John said he tucked JB in bed and read her a book, then he changed it to he said he took her to bed and read a book. Hmmm, big difference, especially when you consider that Burke claimed JonBenet walked up the steps herself instead of being carried asleep as John and Patsy would have us believe.

Patsy said she awoke the morning of the 26th and went to awaken JonBenet, found her bed empty, and proceeded downstairs, discovering the RN. Then she changed it to she went downstairs to make coffee and discovered the RN without stopping by JB's room. One of those two differing stories from either of the parents has to be a lie.

[ellen13]

Just curious if JR and BR still live in Charlevoix, MI??

[Zman]

Yeah, but I think it's worth it to own it if you're going to be referring back to it and quoting it like I do. My copy of DOI is dog-eared and underlined throughout. I also really like the photos of JonBenet.

I don't know if you would consider this lying (I do), but both John and Patsy told two different stories as to the events transpiring the night of the 25th and the morning of the 26th.

First John said he tucked JB in bed and read her a book, then he changed it to he said he took her to bed and read a book. Hmmm, big difference, especially when you consider that Burke claimed JonBenet walked up the steps herself instead of being carried asleep as John and Patsy would have us believe.

Patsy said she awoke the morning of the 26th and went to awaken JonBenet, found her bed empty, and proceeded downstairs, discovering the RN. Then she changed it to she went downstairs to make coffee and discovered the RN without stopping by JB's room. One of those two differing stories from either of the parents has to be a lie.
These are not documented changes. The first stories are only LE version of what they thought the R's said. LE are just people to. It's also why people should really have lawyers.

But the main point is. It don't matter.

JBR awake/JBR asleep.......Looked in her room/didn't look in her room......
Wax on/wax off

[Nehemiah]

These are not documented changes. The first stories are only LE version of what they thought the R's said. LE are just people to. It's also why people should really have lawyers.

But the main point is. It don't matter.

JBR awake/JBR asleep.......Looked in her room/didn't look in her room......
Wax on/wax off

Not saying that the Rs are guilty, but they sure appeared to do a lot of distancing when recalling the events of the 25th. I tend to think that John did tuck her in and did read to her, however, the lawyers possibly had to rethink all that in order to distance him from the evening. He probably wasn't guilty of anything, but it's easier to not have to answer questions and get tripped up. I also believe that they distanced Burke in the same way. It's just easier for him to have been in bed, been asleep, etc.. and that way no questions have to be answered.

I think that DOI is the Ramseys' answers to all the
questions/suspicions/speculation about this case. IMO, whatever they went into detail about in the book, is addressing evidence that the attorneys knew that the BPD had against them.

[deanws]

I've been watching these boards forever. Never saw anyone but FW (can I still use FW?)caught in a lie. Only someones opinion of a lie. I'd love to find a lie that I could document.

Then again my suspicions of who runs/supports these boards and why they really do and why they are so overwhelmingly anti-R would probably get me kicked off for good.FW had NOTHING to do with her death. There was another voice on the tape. He was not asleep. He did own the boots. Patsy denied Burke had them.

[deanws]

deandaniellws,

I don't want to ask myself why Patsy lied. I know why Patsy lied.

I asked Narlacat to post an instance where JOHN lied or gave an evasive answer. I don't think she or anyone else can because there isn't one.IYO why do you think she lied?

[Zman]

FW had NOTHING to do with her death. There was another voice on the tape. He was not asleep. He did own the boots. Patsy denied Burke had them.
See what I mean?

[narlacat]

Just curious if JR and BR still live in Charlevoix, MI??
BR goes to college now I think. I forget where though.

[narlacat]

OK Narlacat, so the examples you have given could all be quite reasonably considered to be truthful answers to all these questions. To all these questions he answers "I don't remember" or words to that effect. He probably doesn't remember and if he doesn't remember he is not lying or being evasive - he is telling the truth.

I have read all the transcripts of all his publically available interviews and there are plenty of questions, by far the majority, where he does remember and he does give an information laden answer.

So how about some examples of lies?

And please ... not the one about Burke being awake at the time of the 911 call ... there is no certainty that those voices heard on the tape were in fact there, or if they were there, that they were Ramsey voices and not unerased voices from a previous recording.
Aussie
We will not agree here.
When he say's 'I don't remember' or words to that effect, that doesn't have to mean he doesn't actually remember. You yourself said 'he PROBABLY doesn't remember and if he doesn't remember he is not lying or being evasive - '.
Well, maybe he does remember and that is not telling the truth and not telling the truth is lying.

[Moab]

BR goes to college now I think. I forget where though.
Burke is attending Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana.

[Zman]

Aussie
We will not agree here.
When he say's 'I don't remember' or words to that effect, that doesn't have to mean he doesn't actually remember. You yourself said 'he PROBABLY doesn't remember and if he doesn't remember he is not lying or being evasive - '.
Well, maybe he does remember and that is not telling the truth and not telling the truth is lying.
Not for nothing but JR does say "I don't remember" alot but then does answer the question that was asked. In fact sometimes offers more info than was asked for.