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Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:00 PM
From CNN.com:

BREAKING NEWS Andrea Yates, the Houston woman convicted of drowning her five children in a bathtub, to get new trial, her attorney tells CNN.

I was very involved in this case. I was/am heartbroken over the death of these 5 children. No mother in her right mind would do this. I'm glad she's getting a new trial, hopefully she can get the help she needs.

The issue of postpartum depression/psychosis needs to be brought to the forefront as a real medical issue. (Poo Poo on Tom Cruise! :razz: )

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:02 PM
NO WAY!:eek:


omg...has she no remorse? Why can't she just take the punishment that was doled out to her?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:05 PM
Andrea's conviction was actually overturned in January. At the time, her attorney said he wouldn't seek her release from the prison psychiatric hospital because he was concerned about her mental state at the time. Since that time her husband divorced her, making her mental state even more fragile. I don't believe that they will put her through a new trial, but they may, at some point, try to move her from the prison hospital to a hospital outside of the prison.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:06 PM
NO WAY!:eek:


omg...has she no remorse? Why can't she just take the punishment that was doled out to her?


Ummmmm, because she's mentally ill?

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:07 PM
Ummmmm, because she's mentally ill?Ok...many people disagree about her case. I think she belongs in prison.

Editted to add: or mental health facility for the rest of her days.

IMO- don't shoot the messenger.

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:12 PM
Idaho Mom - During the first trial of Andrea Yates, I felt the same as you...that she deserved prison for what she did. She committed the most reprehensible crime.

After my anger subsided, and I thought it over and read various things about Andrea and her past, I changed my mind.

I don't want her ever to live in a free society again, but I think if anyone fits into the "insanity defense", it is Andrea Yates. If she isn't insane, I don't know who is.

IMO

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:14 PM
I don't believe that they will put her through a new trial, but they may, at some point, try to move her from the prison hospital to a hospital outside of the prison.

I think they will put her through a new trial for the reason above. So that they can move her elsewhere.

IMO - I don't believe she should be in prison. She is sick and in need of help. She will not receive the type of help she needs being in prison. My heart breaks for her and her kids and what they all went through and continue to go through.

The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:17 PM
Idaho Mom - During the first trial of Andrea Yates, I felt the same as you...that she deserved prison for what she did. She committed the most reprehensible crime.

After my anger subsided, and I thought it over and read various things about Andrea and her past, I changed my mind.

I don't want her ever to live in a free society again, but I think if anyone fits into the "insanity defense", it is Andrea Yates. If she isn't insane, I don't know who is.

IMOThanks for your polite response. This is a loaded issue.

I just watched a show about her case the other night. Every time I see her darling children, it breaks my heart.
I realize she was very sick, but she has no place in our society- sorry, but her crime cancels her right to that.
It was especially heartbreaking to hear that her kids were afraid of her. :(

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:19 PM
The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:
I agree he should be in jail, too. :mad:

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:20 PM
Every time I see her darling children, it breaks my heart.

I know. I had dreams about those children for a very long time. I could not get them out of my mind. Saddest case I've ever seen. :(

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:25 PM
I know. I had dreams about those children for a very long time. I could not get them out of my mind. Saddest case I've ever seen. :(
I agree. It's hard to look at the faces of her kids, knowing what they went through. Especially her son she chased through the house. :( :mad:

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:25 PM
I realize she was very sick, but she has no place in our society- sorry, but her crime cancels her right to that.
It was especially heartbreaking to hear that her kids were afraid of her. :(

I disagree with the bolded statement (politely, of course). I fully believe that had she had the proper medical treatment, these crimes would have never happened. That's the heartbreaking point for me. When Rusty saw her slipping, he should have been more involved in getting her the help she needed. How he could let her go weeks without bathing - that is just plain disgusting. How can she possibly be left alone to care for 5 kids when she couldn't take care of herself? It was also reported that she didn't speak and rarely ate. Just how was she communicating with her kids? Did she ever feed them when she was alone with them?

As I said, had she had the correct medical treatment, I believe those kids would be alive today. The fact that they are dead, I blame on her husband.

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:28 PM
I disagree with the bolded statement (politely, of course). I fully believe that had she had the proper medical treatment, these crimes would have never happened. That's the heartbreaking point for me. When Rusty saw her slipping, he should have been more involved in getting her the help she needed. How he could let her go weeks without bathing - that is just plain disgusting. How can she possibly be left alone to care for 5 kids when she couldn't take care of herself? It was also reported that she didn't speak and rarely ate. Just how was she communicating with her kids? Did she ever feed them when she was alone with them?

As I said, had she had the correct medical treatment, I believe those kids would be alive today. The fact that they are dead, I blame on her husband.First of all- Jules- I love you like a sister. We need to agree to disagree on this case. :):angel:
But, what's done cannot be undone. Do you think she should be released eventually into society? In that event- what happens if she goes off her meds again?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:29 PM
I think they will put her through a new trial for the reason above. So that they can move her elsewhere.

IMO - I don't believe she should be in prison. She is sick and in need of help. She will not receive the type of help she needs being in prison. My heart breaks for her and her kids and what they all went through and continue to go through.

The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:


Her conviction was overturned. Unless and until the prosecutor decides they WANT a new trial, she can be moved anywhere they agree she can be moved to.

bugs
11-09-2005, 12:34 PM
It really is a sad case all the way around. I still remember her talking about the older son running from her once he figured out what she was doing. She is mentally ill and she should be in a mental hospital but evaluated every six months.

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:34 PM
Her conviction was overturned. Unless and until the prosecutor decides they WANT a new trial, she can be moved anywhere they agree she can be moved to.

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Texas' highest criminal court on Wednesday let stand a lower court ruling that threw out Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her children in a bathtub in June 2001.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Alan Curry said the case would be retried or a plea bargain considered.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/09/yates.newtrial.ap/index.html

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:36 PM
First of all- Jules- I love you like a sister. We need to agree to disagree on this case. :):angel:
But, what's done cannot be undone. Do you think she should be released eventually into society? In that event- what happens if she goes off her meds again?

No, I don't think she should be released back into society. I do believe she should be in a treatment facility never to be let out - but not in prison.

And I love you too! :blowkiss:

cinsbythesea
11-09-2005, 12:40 PM
Count me in as another who initially was appalled by Andrea. But as the full story was revealed I began to feel very badly for her. It's a tragic story all the way around. I don't believe that Andrea will ever be able to function in the free world again-but rather than being locked up in a prison I think a hospital setting would be more beneficial to her, as from what I've read, she goes into deep episodes of depression etc and goes in and out of phases of reality. When Rusty told her he was divorcing her she stopped eating and they had to hospitalize her for days to tube-feed her. I have followed this case from day one and this case really pulls at my heart strings big time. I hope she is given a new trial and placed in a hospital. And I REALLY hope Rusty doesn't jump from talk show to talk show to talk show once a new verdict is in like he did the last time. I'm of the opinion he too should have been brought up on charges-don't care for him AT ALL.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:41 PM
HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Texas' highest criminal court on Wednesday let stand a lower court ruling that threw out Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her children in a bathtub in June 2001.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Alan Curry said the case would be retried or a plea bargain considered.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/09/yates.newtrial.ap/index.html


Darlin, I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not. LOL The district attorney has to decide it wants to retry her. My feeling is that her attorney will work out an agreement with the prosecutors whereby she would be committed to a psychiatric hospital for probably the rest of her life. While she's been in "prison" since her conviction, she's been in a "psychiatric hospital" in the prison for almost 100% of her time there because she's psychotic to the point of not being able to speak. If the prosecutor decides they want to retry her, what they'd essentially be doing is waiting until she's declared competent to even stand trial for a second time and then whether she's declared not guilty by reason of mental illness or she's convicted and sentenced to life in prison, she'll end up . . . guess where . . . in the same psychiatric hospital she's in now or the one they'll agree to move her to. SO, the State can spend hundreds of thousands more of its dollars to do absolutely nothing but keep her where she is, or they can just agree that its ridiculous to do so and come up with some sort of agreement on the constraints of her hospitalization.

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:43 PM
I agree. It's hard to look at the faces of her kids, knowing what they went through. Especially her son she chased through the house. :( :mad:

I know. He was 7 years old. He definitely knew what was happening. And, his name was Noah, the name of one of my dear sons. So very very sad. :(

cinsbythesea
11-09-2005, 12:44 PM
Darlin, I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not. LOL The district attorney has to decide it wants to retry her. My feeling is that her attorney will work out an agreement with the prosecutors whereby she would be committed to a psychiatric hospital for probably the rest of her life. While she's been in "prison" since her conviction, she's been in a "psychiatric hospital" in the prison for almost 100% of her time there because she's psychotic to the point of not being able to speak. If the prosecutor decides they want to retry her, what they'd essentially be doing is waiting until she's declared competent to even stand trial for a second time and then whether she's declared not guilty by reason of mental illness or she's convicted and sentenced to life in prison, she'll end up . . . guess where . . . in the same psychiatric hospital she's in now or the one they'll agree to move her to. SO, the State can spend hundreds of thousands more of its dollars to do absolutely nothing but keep her where she is, or they can just agree that its ridiculous to do so and come up with some sort of agreement on the constraints of her hospitalization.

This makes great sense, thanks for clarifying. Would Andrea even be mentally strong enough to endure another trial? I'm not thinking so. Her attorney seems to genuinely care about her-hopefully he can come to some agreement with the prosecutor and get her where she needs to be with the least amount of stress possible on her.

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:45 PM
Darlin, I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not. LOL The district attorney has to decide it wants to retry her. My feeling is that her attorney will work out an agreement with the prosecutors whereby she would be committed to a psychiatric hospital for probably the rest of her life. While she's been in "prison" since her conviction, she's been in a "psychiatric hospital" in the prison for almost 100% of her time there because she's psychotic to the point of not being able to speak. If the prosecutor decides they want to retry her, what they'd essentially be doing is waiting until she's declared competent to even stand trial for a second time and then whether she's declared not guilty by reason of mental illness or she's convicted and sentenced to life in prison, she'll end up . . . guess where . . . in the same psychiatric hospital she's in now or the one they'll agree to move her to. SO, the State can spend hundreds of thousands more of its dollars to do absolutely nothing but keep her where she is, or they can just agree that its ridiculous to do so and come up with some sort of agreement on the constraints of her hospitalization.

Heehee! No, we're not disagreeing. I just hope they offer her a plea and put her in a hospital somewhere where she will continue to get the help she needs - not in a prison psychiatric hospital. My guess is there are far better places out there than where she is. That was my point... ;)

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:49 PM
Heehee! No, we're not disagreeing. I just hope they offer her a plea and put her in a hospital somewhere where she will continue to get the help she needs - not in a prison psychiatric hospital. My guess is there are far better places out there than where she is. That was my point... ;)

This is true. I remember when she was convicted and sentenced, it was said that she would not get the care she needed in a prison hospital. She needs the care she could receive in a mental hospital.

I can't imagine she will ever be free again, and I hope not.

As someone mentioned above, this senseless tragedy could have been avoided, if only the people around her (particularly her so-called husband), would have gotten her the proper treatment and quit getting her pregnant! I don't understand and I never will, how he could leave her alone with those children day after day when she was in the shape she was in!

Rusty definitely bears alot of responsibility in this tragedy, but ultimately Andrea committed the crime.

IMO

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:52 PM
Heehee! No, we're not disagreeing. I just hope they offer her a plea and put her in a hospital somewhere where she will continue to get the help she needs - not in a prison psychiatric hospital. My guess is there are far better places out there than where she is. That was my point... ;)


LOL To tell you the truth, I'm not sure which hospital would be better. "State run psychiatric hospital," to me, sounds like hell on earth. I get the feeling that her attorney wasn't all that unhappy about the way she's been treated at the prison hospital. I seem to recall hearing someone on her team say that she's better off there - at least for now. I guess we'll hear more about all of this in the weeks to come. If the prosecutor does decide to retry her, I for one, will be sending a pretty strongly worded letter to them. My tax dollars can be used for better things, IMO.

I feel that Rusty had a lot responsibility in all of this, but I've always wondered why her doctors were not more responsible. Not just for her own wellbeing, but for the kids' as well. They KNEW her situation at home and put her children, in my opinion, in harm's way. I'd like to see children protected more at that level.

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:55 PM
As someone mentioned above, this senseless tragedy could have been avoided, if only the people around her (particularly her so-called husband), would have gotten her the proper treatment and quit getting her pregnant! I don't understand and I never will, how he could leave her alone with those children day after day when she was in the shape she was in!

IMOThe sad thing is, she said in her recorded police interview, she was planning to do this for some time before...she just waited until Rusty and his Mom (?) were both gone. (sorry-but I can't emember if it was Rusty's Mom or her Mom that had been staying at the house)

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:59 PM
She should be incarcerated in some capacity for the rest of her life (and, yes, a mental facility would be best):

Andrea, about Noah's last moments, from CourtTV:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/2.html

When Andrea was finished with Mary, she left her floating in the water and called to her oldest son, Noah.
He came right away. "What happened to Mary?" he asked. Then apparently realizing what his mother was doing, he ran from the bathroom but Andrea chased him down and dragged him back to the tub. She forced him in face down and drowned him right next to Mary. She admitted in her confession that he had put up the biggest struggle of all. At times he managed to slip from her grasp and get some air, but she always managed to push him back down. His last words were, "I'm sorry." She left him there floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, where police found him.

Jules
11-09-2005, 01:06 PM
His last words were, "I'm sorry."

Oh that made me cry. That poor child. I can't imagine the horror he felt.

deanws
11-09-2005, 01:36 PM
Andrea's conviction was actually overturned in January. At the time, her attorney said he wouldn't seek her release from the prison psychiatric hospital because he was concerned about her mental state at the time. Since that time her husband divorced her, making her mental state even more fragile. I don't believe that they will put her through a new trial, but they may, at some point, try to move her from the prison hospital to a hospital outside of the prison.I believe removing her from a prison hospital and into a psy. hospital is the right decision. I hope that is what Texas decides to do. I believe that is what her family wants also. Everyone in her family knows she needs serious help. Rusty deserves to take her place in prison. That B@stard is slime!:slap:

blueclouds
11-09-2005, 01:38 PM
I'm very thankful that she's getting a new trial. NOTHING excuses killing children EVER and she needs to be locked up for eternity HOWEVER she needs to be in a mental facility as I truly believe she cracked.

I also think her EX husband that LOVES AND ADORES HER AND WOULD STAND BY HER needs his hiney in jail too. He's just as culpable IF NOT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!

deanws
11-09-2005, 01:56 PM
The sad thing is, she said in her recorded police interview, she was planning to do this for some time before...she just waited until Rusty and his Mom (?) were both gone. (sorry-but I can't emember if it was Rusty's Mom or her Mom that had been staying at the house)Well, the reason she was waiting to do this is because the "cult" guy that was giving her religious instruction said that it was her responsibility to make sure her kids were all going to heaven. She, in her mental state, believed that she was a horrible mother and was dooming her children to hell because she couldn't make them holy. Thus, she thought she had to end their lives before the age of accountability approached. In her sick mind, she was saving their souls. So very sad. Rusty knew she was ill...and getting sicker every minute that passed. He had been told that having more children was a tremendous risk to Andrea. He didn't care. What a loser. He deserves to serve time in jail as well. God, I hope the fool doesn't have anymore children..though I know he will.:sick:

michelle
11-09-2005, 01:59 PM
The sad thing is, she said in her recorded police interview, she was planning to do this for some time before...she just waited until Rusty and his Mom (?) were both gone. (sorry-but I can't emember if it was Rusty's Mom or her Mom that had been staying at the house)
I remember hearing that too, but my thing is she had been planning these murders if she was waiting for people to leave to do them, wouldnt that suggest that she was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 02:04 PM
I remember hearing that too, but my thing is she had been planning these murders if she was waiting for people to leave to do them, wouldnt that suggest that she was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing?

Yes, you're right. Rusty's mother had been coming to stay with her during the day because she was in such bad shape, they knew she couldn't care for the children properly. There was, I believe, about a 25-minute window of opportunity between the time Rusty left and his mother arrived.

She KNEW what she was doing was wrong, and that's where the wording of the laws in Texas comes into play. Hard for a jury to find her not guilty by reason of insanity if they properly apply the law. However, its long been my contention that the law is worded wrongly. Some states' laws say if a mental illness was the proximate cause of the crime, then the jury can consider the mental illness as a defense. Texas is long overdue in reviewing these laws, IMO.

deanws
11-09-2005, 02:08 PM
I'm very thankful that she's getting a new trial. NOTHING excuses killing children EVER and she needs to be locked up for eternity HOWEVER she needs to be in a mental facility as I truly believe she cracked.

I also think her EX husband that LOVES AND ADORES HER AND WOULD STAND BY HER needs his hiney in jail too. He's just as culpable IF NOT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they get her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 02:09 PM
I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they gets her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Very well said.

bugs
11-09-2005, 02:11 PM
I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they gets her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(


Excellent post!!

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 02:12 PM
"It's a good day," defense attorney George Parnham said. "The whole issue of mental health, specifically women's mental health, has been championed in this decision." (See video about Yates' new trial -- 3:05)

Parnham said a new trial is a mixed blessing, because Yates will have to relive the horror of her children's deaths, but added, "She needs to be found not guilty by reason of insanity."

Parnham told CNN he would try to strike a plea agreement that would send Yates to a mental health facility rather than prison.

"She has been told that she will be retried." She is not looking forward to a retrial, he said.

"She would gladly forgo this process," he said, "but you know, the right thing needs to be done here, and we're going to do it."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/09/andreayates.retrial/index.html

Details
11-09-2005, 02:18 PM
Yes, you're right. Rusty's mother had been coming to stay with her during the day because she was in such bad shape, they knew she couldn't care for the children properly. There was, I believe, about a 25-minute window of opportunity between the time Rusty left and his mother arrived.

She KNEW what she was doing was wrong, and that's where the wording of the laws in Texas comes into play.I'm not sure that meant she knew it was wrong - she just knew that they'd try to stop her.

I don't see her as much of a danger after some treatment. For her it's not a matter so much of the meds, as of never again being married to an idiot who tells her she's responsible for the children, having a ton of young children, living in a lousy trailer or whatever where there's a ton of work, and being overstressed, all at once. It was a bit of a perfect storm - the preacher who told her the children's souls were her responsibility, the depression, the uncaring husband who kept getting her pregnant knowing the risks to his wife, the lousy and stressful living conditions the husband insisted on, just everything. Take away any one of these items, and those kids would be alive and Andrea Yates would be no threat to anyone at all.

But she'll need probably a decade of therapy at the least in a hospital. I know what she did, but I feel sorry for her because I really don't think she would have done it had one person in her life shown the least bit of compassion or common sense. The doctors or the husband, possibly even the mother in law could have seen she was really sick, and taken care of her, and nothing would have happened. So very little was required to prevent this, and none of them did it. She was obviously sick enough she shouldn't have been left alone for 45 minutes! Even if they couldn't see what she would do to the children, it should have been obvious what she might do to herself (not that I think Rusty cared about that).

Casshew
11-09-2005, 02:55 PM
Wow, I just heard the news... I am so glad she is getting a new trial, she (IMO) is mentally ill.

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 02:57 PM
I'm glad she's getting a new trial too. Although, I think she shouldn't be in jail but a mental facility that can help her.

Casshew
11-09-2005, 03:11 PM
I agree with you Mushy :blowkiss:

Although, I am not sure how much help people get in these institutes and maybe prison would be a better envornment. (I have heard some horror stories about how patients are treated/mistreated)

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 03:40 PM
:(
She should be incarcerated in some capacity for the rest of her life (and, yes, a mental facility would be best):

Andrea, about Noah's last moments, from CourtTV:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/2.html

When Andrea was finished with Mary, she left her floating in the water and called to her oldest son, Noah.
He came right away. "What happened to Mary?" he asked. Then apparently realizing what his mother was doing, he ran from the bathroom but Andrea chased him down and dragged him back to the tub. She forced him in face down and drowned him right next to Mary. She admitted in her confession that he had put up the biggest struggle of all. At times he managed to slip from her grasp and get some air, but she always managed to push him back down. His last words were, "I'm sorry." She left him there floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, where police found him.

Oh, Idaho Mom, I was sick for months over the death of these children. That poor child. My heart is breaking again....

This is one sick woman. She will never be well. If she was to get well, she would have to face what she did. Who could face that?

IMO

PrayersForMaura
11-09-2005, 04:00 PM
Five mental health experts testified that Yates did not know right from wrong or that she thought drowning her children was right. Dietz was the only mental health expert to testify for the prosecution and the only one who testified she knew right from wrong.

While prosecutors agreed Yates was mentally ill, they argued that the illness was not severe enough to impede her ability to know right from wrong. Jurors agreed, and did not declare her legally insane.

Yates, 41, was sentenced to life in prison and is jailed at a psychiatric prison in East Texas.

In spite of the unlikelihood of a plea deal — in which Yates would plead guilty to the killings rather than not guilty by reason of insanity — there is one scenario that both the defense and the prosecution could agree to.

"The government would have to give up the ghost on seeking the death penalty, the sentence being life in an institution instead of in jail [with the rest of the prison population] without the possibility of parole," FOX News senior judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano told FOXNews.com. "That's the only guilty plea that would be acceptable."

Yates isn't currently housed with the general inmate population, and Napolitano said both sides would have to concur that she should spend the rest of her life in either a mental institution or a psychiatric prison without the chance of ever going free.

"The jury found that she is not a danger to anybody else, that she’s so crazy she couldn’t hurt a fly in jail," Napolitano told FOXNews.com.

But Texas prosecutors are elected, meaning they have to answer to voters.

"It's a rough-and-tumble, swaggering electorate who like to see the guilty punished to the max," Napolitano said. "I don't know that a plea deal is in the cards. It depends on the political wishes of the prosecutor."

The murders of the Yates children, the youngest a 6-month-old baby and the oldest a 7-year-old, horrified the country and became a high-profile instance of postpartum depression used in an insanity defense.

Yates' name has been frequently evoked in similar cases, most recently last month when a young mother dropped her three young children to their deaths in the San Francisco Bay.

More: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175041,00.html

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:18 PM
I have a friend, who had a neighbor that was mentally ill. This woman when on her meds (no one knew)was a little vacant, but was well known in the community, and seemed to dote on children. One day, she walked over to my friend's house. My friend and her 3 kids were playing around on the front lawn. Her neighbor said- "Do you want to come down to my house and feed the squirrels? They're practically eating out of my hands today." My friend and kids went to the neighbor's. The neighbor lady said "I have a treat inside for _ _ _ _." She took this little girl by the hand and proceeded downstairs to a bathroom. She took her into the bathroom, locked the door and proceeded to slit my friend's daughter's throat, and stab her in the neck several times. She then went back outside and said to my friend, "I just killed your baby".

My friend screamed for help, ran in the house, grabbed her daughter and ran with her into the middle of the street, screaming for help. Luckily a few people came out and held the gaping wound shut, while paramedics came. My friend's daughter is alive by the grace of God...all major veins/arteries were missed by fraction of an inch.

This woman went to court, and her attornies fought to keep her in the home while waiting for trial- said she was mentally ill, temporarily off her meds and a mental hospital would further her decline.To the dismay and disgust of the community, this woman was returned to her house. It came out she was left at home alone, unmedicated again. Her PO said she started having impulses to harm people with scissors/knives.

Eventually, she was held in a hospital for a short period of time. She is now living in a different neighborhood-probably with unsuspecting neighbors.

I am very sorry, but I think that once someone commits a crime of this nature, they forfeit any chance of ever returning to society again. I don't mean to sound harsh, but Andrea Yates needed to be out of the house long before any of the damage occurred. Her kids were scared of her! People said she had the look of a wild animal at times! My God, someone needs to protect the innocent people in our society, rather than slap a bandage on the mentally ill and put them back in the home. IMO

PrayersForMaura
11-09-2005, 04:21 PM
Oh my goodness, Idahomom, that is awful! I shudder just thinking about that!
Good God!
That is absolutely horrifying.
I feel ill just visualizing that.

I hope your friend has recovered just psychologically and emotionally from that.... and her daughter, too.

Cassata11
11-09-2005, 04:22 PM
I have been waiting to see if she would get a new trial after Dr. Dietz testified incorrectly at her first trial. I remember watching the trial, or at least the sentancing on CourtTv. I have also read most of the transcripts. It's sad that a women on that kind of intense mind controlling drugs was left alone for any amount of time. The hospitizalations and the flippant usage of the drugs would be enough for anyone to lose it. Did you know it was only days before the murders that a Dr. said she was OK, and took her off of Haldol? Not even a week earlier she was suicidal, and talking about death!?!?

I don't know about anyone else...but my doctor gave me Wellbutrin to quit smoking, and it takes several weeks to build up AND come out of your system. I thought I was manic! (LMAO)

I would like to see Andrea's doctors have to take some responsibility as well.

As for Andrea, she is a sick woman that did a terrible act. Whatever the outcome, I hope that she is able to receive treatment.

Love and Light...Cassata

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:25 PM
I hope your friend has recovered just psychologically and emotionally from that.... and her daughter, too.
My friend has not recovered the way that I would hope. It has taken her years and years of work. She is working at it.

Her daughter is doing quite well. Very full of life and funny.

This event sent ripples through our community. I am very protective of my kids, and this I play through my mind frequently when they're away from me.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:27 PM
This was her attorney's comment:

Parnham said a new trial is a mixed blessing, because Yates will have to relive the horror of her children's deaths, but added, "She needs to be found not guilty by reason of insanity."

_______________________________________________

I don't know how far he's willing to take this in order to try and make this happen. I guess it depends on what the prosecution offers. However, this case strikes up huge emotions. It may not be too difficult to find another jury who think she needs to go to prison.

If she's really as bad off emotionally/mentally as we've been told, how competent is she to aid in her own defense? How competent is she to be able to let Parnham know whether she wants another trial or not?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:28 PM
I am very sorry, but I think that once someone commits a crime of this nature, they forfeit any chance of ever returning to society again. I don't mean to sound harsh, but Andrea Yates needed to be out of the house long before any of the damage occurred. Her kids were scared of her! People said she had the look of a wild animal at times! My God, someone needs to protect the innocent people in our society, rather than slap a bandage on the mentally ill and put them back in the home. IMO


There's no danger of her ever being released.

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 04:32 PM
I was following this case as well, and my heart breaks listening to how she drowned her children... I believe she is mentally ill but I also believe she knew what she did was wrong. She called the police right after the drownings and confessed.. That tells me she knew she had committed a crime..

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:33 PM
There's no danger of her ever being released.
I am saying that across the board- once a crime of this nature is committed, the offender needs to be removed permanently.

The problem is when the ill go off of their meds...they could be law-abiding citizens right up until the crime is committed. ( I don't know the answer to keeping them on their meds.) The Mom that dropped her 3 babies off the pier in SF is a prime example.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:33 PM
I was following this case as well, and my heart breaks listening to how she drowned her children... I believe she is mentally ill but I also believe she knew what she did was wrong. She called the police right after the drownings and confessed.. That tells me she knew she had committed a crime..


Darlin, you just proved my point above. I think the prosecutor could find 12 people who think the way that you do pretty easily.

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:34 PM
I was following this case as well, and my heart breaks listening to how she drowned her children... I believe she is mentally ill but I also believe she knew what she did was wrong. She called the police right after the drownings and confessed.. That tells me she knew she had committed a crime..
I struggle with that too. :(

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:37 PM
Idaho mom, that is the stuff that freaks me out and why i am so protective of my little one. You never know what is going on with your neighbors who "seem to be normal" or anyone for that matter....Its a scary place for kids these days...

nanandjim
11-09-2005, 04:38 PM
...The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:
:clap: :clap: I agree. I think that Andrea is sick and should be hospitalized. However, I think that her husband is sane and should go to prison.

Jules
11-09-2005, 04:40 PM
:clap: :clap: I agree. I think that Andrea is sick and should be hospitalized. However, I think that her husband is sane and should go to prison.

Opps, just noticed I wrote husband - should be ex-husband - or husband-at-the-time. Or how about just :loser: .

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:42 PM
I watched the andrea yates E true story this monday and i couldnt help but notice how rustys demeanor was when he talked about the children, it was almost like it hasnt sunk in or something, i remember seeing david smith, susan smiths ex hubby talk about his boys and he would bawl like a wild man, i would cry everytime i seen him on tv....

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 04:43 PM
NO WAY!:eek:


omg...has she no remorse? Why can't she just take the punishment that was doled out to her?
Since it's been pretty clear from the start the woman is clinically insane, this is actually more justice than I expected from the state of Texas. If the mom who bashed her kids' brains out because God told her to can be found insane, then Yates deserves a retrial. As it is, she'll never walk outside institutional walls again in her life. And state mental hospitals are no picnic.

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 04:43 PM
I struggle with that too. :(

Maybe a part of her wanted to get locked up.. :waitasec: maybe she was that mentally ill... if she knew she was going to kill her kids, I'm wondering why she didn't call the police before she did it to help stop her and maybe she would have gotten some help.. I know she was showing signs of needing help and it seemed like everyone around her were ignoring it.. I can only answer for how I think I would be if I were that mentally ill... I would hope someone would lock me up from doing something so terrible... :(

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:46 PM
Since it's been pretty clear from the start the woman is clinically insane, this is actually more justice than I expected from the state of Texas. If the mom who bashed her kids' brains out because God told her to can be found insane, then Yates deserves a retrial. As it is, she'll never walk outside institutional walls again in her life. And state mental hospitals are no picnic.
Her babies still got worse (killed at the hands of their mother), than she ever will. IMO

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:50 PM
Maybe a part of her wanted to get locked up.. :waitasec: maybe she was that mentally ill... if she knew she was going to kill her kids, I'm wondering why she didn't call the police before she did it to help stop her and maybe she would have gotten some help.. I know she was showing signs of needing help and it seemed like everyone around her were ignoring it.. I can only answer for how I think I would be if I were that mentally ill... I would hope someone would lock me up from doing something so terrible... :(
I agree paperdoll, i have always struggled with the fact that andrea knew she was going to kill these kids and waited until she was in the clear and then she did it....I wonder too why she didnt call and say to someone, "look i am having these thoughts, ect..."

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:51 PM
Maybe a part of her wanted to get locked up.. :waitasec: maybe she was that mentally ill... if she knew she was going to kill her kids, I'm wondering why she didn't call the police before she did it to help stop her and maybe she would have gotten some help.. I know she was showing signs of needing help and it seemed like everyone around her were ignoring it.. I can only answer for how I think I would be if I were that mentally ill... I would hope someone would lock me up from doing something so terrible... :(


From what I remember, she was of the mind that she was destroying them spiratually or something to that effect because she was a bad mother. She thought she had to kill them before their souls were evil. She didn't want to be stopped because that meant the kids going to hell. Now she is merely a danger to herself.

Casshew
11-09-2005, 04:53 PM
IdahoMom, that story about your friend's neighbour gave me chills - that poor little girl, I am so glad she recovered, what a nightmare!

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:53 PM
I remember her saying something like she had to kill them to save their souls, pretty much on the same line as susan smith..

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 04:54 PM
Her babies still got worse (killed at the hands of their mother), than she ever will. IMO
Only if you equate suffering and pain with the immediate physical realm.

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 04:55 PM
I have a friend, who had a neighbor that was mentally ill. This woman when on her meds (no one knew)was a little vacant, but was well known in the community, and seemed to dote on children. One day, she walked over to my friend's house. My friend and her 3 kids were playing around on the front lawn. Her neighbor said- "Do you want to come down to my house and feed the squirrels? They're practically eating out of my hands today." My friend and kids went to the neighbor's. The neighbor lady said "I have a treat inside for _ _ _ _." She took this little girl by the hand and proceeded downstairs to a bathroom. She took her into the bathroom, locked the door and proceeded to slit my friend's daughter's throat, and stab her in the neck several times. She then went back outside and said to my friend, "I just killed your baby".

My friend screamed for help, ran in the house, grabbed her daughter and ran with her into the middle of the street, screaming for help. Luckily a few people came out and held the gaping wound shut, while paramedics came. My friend's daughter is alive by the grace of God...all major veins/arteries were missed by fraction of an inch.

This woman went to court, and her attornies fought to keep her in the home while waiting for trial- said she was mentally ill, temporarily off her meds and a mental hospital would further her decline.To the dismay and disgust of the community, this woman was returned to her house. It came out she was left at home alone, unmedicated again. Her PO said she started having impulses to harm people with scissors/knives.

Eventually, she was held in a hospital for a short period of time. She is now living in a different neighborhood-probably with unsuspecting neighbors.

I am very sorry, but I think that once someone commits a crime of this nature, they forfeit any chance of ever returning to society again. I don't mean to sound harsh, but Andrea Yates needed to be out of the house long before any of the damage occurred. Her kids were scared of her! People said she had the look of a wild animal at times! My God, someone needs to protect the innocent people in our society, rather than slap a bandage on the mentally ill and put them back in the home. IMO

OMG IdahoMom. This is one of the most heartbreaking and scariest things I've ever read. Thank God your friend's daughter survived this. This story sent shivers down my spine.


About Andrea Yates, I'm happy to hear that she will be getting a new trial. No, I don't think she should ever be released back into society. I think she needs serious psychiatric help that she should have gotten years ago. If that a$$hole ex-husband of hers had paid more attention to her, their children, and the situations they were living in maybe this horrible tragedy would have never happened. I place alot of blame on Rusty and I think he needs to be in prison. I feel sorry for the next woman he marries.

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:56 PM
I wouldnt want to be in andreas shoes or any mom who has killed their children....I cant imagine, death would come as a relief...

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 05:02 PM
I agree paperdoll, i have always struggled with the fact that andrea knew she was going to kill these kids and waited until she was in the clear and then she did it....I wonder too why she didnt call and say to someone, "look i am having these thoughts, ect..."
She didn't call anyone for help with her mental state because she was a complete and utter hollowed out shell by that point,thanks largely to a non-supportive and isolating family structure, exemplified by her grinning knuckle-knob of a husband.
Insanity is far more subtle (and insidious) than simply acknowledging the difference between what SANE people know is right and wrong. That's why they need "guilty but insane" added to the jury choices. We've made immense leaps and bounds in understanding brain chemistry and mental illness over the last 30 years, but the judicial concept of insanity is mired in the late 19th century, where they expect the insane to be drooling, crapping themselves in public , and incapable of coming in from the poring rain (which sounds more like they were describing mental retardation than insanity, to me--since back then they made no distinction between the two conditions and would lock the mentally handicapped up with the insane).

littlefeet
11-09-2005, 05:03 PM
You know most of the cases where the mother kills her children that I have heard of over the years, excluding Susan Smith of course, have involved insanity, mixed together with weird religious beliefs or some other belief about "saving" the child, whether it be their soul or just their lives.

I knew a man here locally who was one of the oldest of 6 children and luckily for him one of the two who were old enough to have been in school the day that his mother became delusional and thought that the world was on fire and threw the other four children into the well drowning them all.

I also watched a talk show about women prisoners who a governor who was on his last term pardoned from their life sentences for crimes to do with killing their abusive spouses and one woman who had drowned her baby. She too had been diagnosed with PP depression and had become delusional, that a demon was possessing her child and believed that by holding him underwater until he drowned that she would kill the demon inside him and that he would then be saved. At least that's what she said the voices in her head told her.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 05:04 PM
She didn't call anyone for help with her mental state because she was a complete and utter hollowed out shell by that point,thanks largely to a non-supportive and isolating family structure, exemplified by her grinning knuckle-knob of a husband.
Insanity is far more subtle (and insidious) than simply acknowledging the difference between what SANE people know is right and wrong. That's why they need "guilty but insane" added to the jury choices. We've made immense leaps and bounds in understanding brain chemistry and mental illness over the last 30 years, but the judicial concept of insanity is mired in the late 19th century, where they expect the insane to be drooling, crapping themselves in public , and incapable of coming in from the poring rain (which sounds more like they were describing mental retardation than insanity, to me--since back then they made no distinction between the two conditions and would lock the mentally handicapped up with the insane).


EXACTLY.

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 05:05 PM
I remember her saying something like she had to kill them to save their souls, pretty much on the same line as susan smith..

I remember something about that as well with the Susan Smith trial, but I don't think it is even in the same ballpark as the AY tragedy. IMO, Susan Smith methodically killed her children and knew exactly what she was doing. I truly believe Andrea (in her own mind) killed her children to save their souls. Susan Smith killed her sons to get a man.

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:09 PM
Oh i dont buy for one minute that susan smith was as mentally ill as andrea yates, although i do think she has some mental issues....Susan smith did think though that by drowning her children she would let them be with Jesus and away from the horrible world...So she was a little out there too.....Although she was too chicken to kill herself in the end like she originally planned on doing..

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 05:10 PM
Oh i dont buy for one minute that susan smith was as mentally ill as andrea yates, although i do think she has some mental issues....Susan smith did think though that by drowning her children she would let them be with Jesus and away from the horrible world...So she was a little out there too.....Although she was too chicken to kill herself in the end like she originally planned on doing..


Susan Smith had the same type of mental illness as Darlie Routier and Debbie Milke - narcassism.

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:16 PM
Susan Smith had the same type of mental illness as Darlie Routier and Debbie Milke - narcassism.
I think that susan smith was and does have mental issues.....It was testified that she was severly depressed and she was on medications and then stopped so i dont think she was like darlie routier where darlie still says she didnt kill her kids and i think darlie was just plain selfish...IMO

bugs
11-09-2005, 05:16 PM
I took the following from the Crime Library web page on women who murder. I think Rusty SHOULD be held accountable.
__________________________________________

Rusty introduced Andrea to a preacher who had impressed him in college, a man named Michael Woroniecki. He was a sharp-witted, sharp-tongued, self-proclaimed "prophet" who preached a simple message about following Jesus but who was so belligerent in public about sinners going to hell (which included most people) that he was often in trouble. He even left Michigan, according to Mugshots, to avoid prosecution.


Rusty corresponded with Woroniecki, who wandered around with his family for several years in a bus, and eventually he believed he had found the Holy Spirit. Woroniecki spent a lot of time in his street sermons and letters to correspondents judging them for their sins and warning them about losing God's love. In particular, he emphasized that people were accountable for children, and woe to the person who might cause even one to stumble. He once stated, "I feel like I need a sledge hammer to get you to listen." He denounced Catholicism, the religion with which Andrea had grown up, and stressed the sinful state of her soul.

He also preached austerity, and his ideas were probably instrumental in the way the Yateses decided to live. As Andrea had one child after another, she took on the task of home-schooling them with Christian-only texts and trying to do what the Woroniecki and his wife, Rachel, told her.

"From the letters I have that Rachel Woroniecki wrote to Andrea," says Suzy Spencer on Mugshots, "it was, 'You are evil. You are wicked. You are a daughter of Eve, who is a wicked witch. The window of opportunity for us to minister to you is closing. You have to repent now.'"

According to a former follower, the religion preached by the Woronieckis involves the idea that women have Eve's witch nature and need to be subservient to men. The preacher judged harshly those mothers who were permissive and who allowed their children to go in the wrong direction. In other words, if the mother was going to Hell for some reason, so would the children.

After two more children had come along, Rusty decided to "travel light," and made his small family sell their possessions and live first in a recreational vehicle and then in a bus that Woroniecki had converted for his religious crusade and sold to them. Andrea didn't complain—she was the type of woman who just went along with decisions---but she got pregnant again and had a miscarriage. Yet it wasn't long before she recovered, was again pregnant and had her fourth child, making their 350-square-foot living quarters rather cramped. She continued to correspond with the Woronieckis and to receive their warnings. They thought it was better to kill oneself than to mislead a child in the way of Jesus—a sentiment she would repeat later in prison interviews.

Not surprisingly, she sank into a depression. She was lonely. She tried to be a good mother, but the pressures were building. At the same time, her father grew ill with Alzheimer's and she had to help care for him. Then things got bad.

bakerprune64
11-09-2005, 05:21 PM
I remember something about that as well with the Susan Smith trial, but I don't think it is even in the same ballpark as the AY tragedy. IMO, Susan Smith methodically killed her children and knew exactly what she was doing. I truly believe Andrea (in her own mind) killed her children to save their souls. Susan Smith killed her sons to get a man.
Isn't this the same defense being used in court on the mom who just recently dropped her three children off the pier into the San Fransisco bay? I'm by no means saying that these women are sane, what sane mother would do this to their own children! But on the other hand, the people in their lives who turn a blind eye or ignore the cries for help should also be tried, and the insane moms locked into a mental facility for the rest of their days (prison/state or otherwise.) A little off the subject here...my BIL and SIL are going through the beginning stages of divorce (he cheated and got a gal preggers, we just found out about 1 1/2 year old son!) anyways, when him and my SIL fight, he threatens to kill himself. How many times in the news have we heard of people who kill themsleves and take loved ones with them? I am terrified for her safety and that of my 4 yo nephew. Any suggestions?? I'll take whatever you've got:confused: .

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 05:23 PM
I think that susan smith was and does have mental issues.....It was testified that she was severly depressed and she was on medications and then stopped so i dont think she was like darlie routier where darlie still says she didnt kill her kids and i think darlie was just plain selfish...IMO

For 9 long days Susan Smith insisted that a black man had taken her car and kidnapped her children. IMO, she was as sane the day she let Michael and Alex drown as the day she went on national tv telling the world how much it hurt her that people were starting to doubt her story. She's not mentally ill. She just a cold murdering b*tch that I have absolutely no pity for.

Marthatex
11-09-2005, 05:23 PM
She didn't call anyone for help with her mental state because she was a complete and utter hollowed out shell by that point,thanks largely to a non-supportive and isolating family structure, exemplified by her grinning knuckle-knob of a husband.
Insanity is far more subtle (and insidious) than simply acknowledging the difference between what SANE people know is right and wrong. That's why they need "guilty but insane" added to the jury choices. We've made immense leaps and bounds in understanding brain chemistry and mental illness over the last 30 years, but the judicial concept of insanity is mired in the late 19th century, where they expect the insane to be drooling, crapping themselves in public , and incapable of coming in from the poring rain (which sounds more like they were describing mental retardation than insanity, to me--since back then they made no distinction between the two conditions and would lock the mentally handicapped up with the insane).

That's right; you don't reason like even a half-way normal person when you're in major, rock-bottom depression or borderline psychosis.

Same reason people commit suicide, when with help and straightening out of those brain chemicals they could get over the hump and maybe lead a good life one day.

Too bad it's so complicated and the brain can't just take an aspirin, go to bed and then feel OK the next day.

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:28 PM
For 9 long days Susan Smith insisted that a black man had taken her car and kidnapped her children. IMO, she was as sane the day she let Michael and Alex drown as the day she went on national tv telling the world how much it hurt her that people were starting to doubt her story. She's not mentally ill. She just a cold murdering b*tch that I have absolutely no pity for.
she did lie for 9 days about her children and then broke down and confessed, it was testified to that susan had mental illnesses, she had them since she was 6 years old and her father killed himself due to his own mental illness, i am not by any means defending her but i have studied this case inside and out and did papers for school on her and in my opinion, shes got mental issues....

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 05:28 PM
Isn't this the same defense being used in court on the mom who just recently dropped her three children off the pier into the San Fransisco bay? I'm by no means saying that these women are sane, what sane mother would do this to their own children! But on the other hand, the people in their lives who turn a blind eye or ignore the cries for help should also be tried, and the insane moms locked into a mental facility for the rest of their days (prison/state or otherwise.) A little off the subject here...my BIL and SIL are going through the beginning stages of divorce (he cheated and got a gal preggers, we just found out about 1 1/2 year old son!) anyways, when him and my SIL fight, he threatens to kill himself. How many times in the news have we heard of people who kill themsleves and take loved ones with them? I am terrified for her safety and that of my 4 yo nephew. Any suggestions?? I'll take whatever you've got:confused: .

Sorry bakerprune, I haven't read anything about the mother in SF. I heard a little about it, but haven't read up on it yet.

As far as your SIL and nephew goes, I would be scared for them too. You just never know what people will do, especially if one is threatening suicide. Can she get a restraining order on him or get his visitation rights taken away because of his mental state? Prayers for them both. I hope they both stay safe during this.

bakerprune64
11-09-2005, 05:39 PM
Sorry bakerprune, I haven't read anything about the mother in SF. I heard a little about it, but haven't read up on it yet.

As far as your SIL and nephew goes, I would be scared for them too. You just never know what people will do, especially if one is threatening suicide. Can she get a restraining order on him or get his visitation rights taken away because of his mental state? Prayers for them both. I hope they both stay safe during this.
Thank You Newmom2003 for your kind thoughts. As far as a restraining order goes, they are all in the same house still. It looks as if she may be moving out in the next few days, and she thinks I'm over-reacting. I already called her mom and filled her in (MIL lives out of state) she agrees with me, but we don't know what we can do. Still looking for suggestions people, please help a fellow sleuther out. Thanks, J

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 05:40 PM
I think that susan smith was and does have mental issues.....It was testified that she was severly depressed and she was on medications and then stopped so i dont think she was like darlie routier where darlie still says she didnt kill her kids and i think darlie was just plain selfish...IMO


She was depressed because she couldn't get her boyfriend to fall for her, IMO.

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:41 PM
She was depressed because she couldn't get her boyfriend to fall for her, IMO.
She was depressed at the age of six, many years before she met tom findley...

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 05:42 PM
She was depressed at the age of six, many years before she met tom findley...


Okay, okay, you win. She was depressed. I hope she rots in hell. :innocent:

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 05:46 PM
Let me guess, are we speaking of Susan Smith? I hate that woman with a passion. I don't think she has a mental illness. I think she as an awful monster. But that's just MO.

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:48 PM
Okay, okay, you win. She was depressed. I hope she rots in hell. :innocent:
I actually laughed out loud at that, its nice to agree to disagree....:D

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 05:50 PM
I actually laughed out loud at that, its nice to agree to disagree....:D


It sure is. LOL Hey, didn't she recently put out a "Babes in Prison" add so she can get penpals of the opposite sex? I hear she likes rainbows and teddybears. (no foolin). :eek: (Maybe they cured her while she's been incarcerated). :truce:

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:52 PM
It sure is. LOL Hey, didn't she recently put out a "Babes in Prison" add so she can get penpals of the opposite sex? I hear she likes rainbows and teddybears. (no foolin). :eek: (Maybe they cured her while she's been incarcerated). :truce:
yea she did and i thought then that something was seriously wrong, and it is rainbows and mickey mouse she likes, it really made me said to see that because i thought of how much my liitle boy likes mickey and i wondered if her kids did too...:(

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 05:54 PM
yea she did and i thought then that something was seriously wrong, and it is rainbows and mickey mouse she likes, it really made me said to see that because i thought of how much my liitle boy likes mickey and i wondered if her kids did too...:(


Wasn't there a picture of her youngest son in a Mickey t-shirt??? Maybe she's sicker than we thought and that's why she said it???? I'm not equipped to understand these things. :confused:

michelle
11-09-2005, 05:59 PM
Wasn't there a picture of her youngest son in a Mickey t-shirt??? Maybe she's sicker than we thought and that's why she said it???? I'm not equipped to understand these things. :confused:
I am not either, yes there was a picture with that....I just cant understand how these moms do these things and can still live a life to where they want to meet people, i mean that is plain crazy....I am telling you i would DIE if i ever hurt my child that way or killed a child, they couldnt protect me from killing myself...I think in our normal minds we just cant fathom what these woman are going through that kill their kids...My cousin suffers from sever depression and i am worried because she is about to have twins and she has already had shock treatments done before this pregnancy she was in like a pyschosis, it reminded me of andrea yates, its really freaky....and she already has 2 little girls that she would let play outsied with nobody watching and they were like 5 and 2.....

bugs
11-09-2005, 06:01 PM
I think Susan is evil where Andrea is sick. Susan's kids were in her way of her new love. In the letter he wrote to her to break up he said something to the effect that he didn't want them.

Details
11-09-2005, 06:02 PM
For 9 long days Susan Smith insisted that a black man had taken her car and kidnapped her children. IMO, she was as sane the day she let Michael and Alex drown as the day she went on national tv telling the world how much it hurt her that people were starting to doubt her story. She's not mentally ill. She just a cold murdering b*tch that I have absolutely no pity for.Kinda funny Andrea Yates is thought by some to know right from wrong because she did call the police and didn't try to hide what she did; but doing the opposite to me clearly indicates a knowledge of right and wrong.

I think Andrea knew what she did was illegal, but thought it was the right thing to do (that nonsense she was indoctrinated with about kids going to hell if she wasn't a perfect mother).

Susan Smith was completely different - she may have been depressed, but her motivation was sane - trying to keep her boyfriend she did something she knew was wrong. It was obvious in the way she tried to lie and get away with it. Insanity - they don't have that self preservation, selfishness. The other case I don't know anything about.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:03 PM
I am not either, yes there was a picture with that....I just cant understand how these moms do these things and can still live a life to where they want to meet people, i mean that is plain crazy....I am telling you i would DIE if i ever hurt my child that way or killed a child, they couldnt protect me from killing myself...I think in our normal minds we just cant fathom what these woman are going through that kill their kids...My cousin suffers from sever depression and i am worried because she is about to have twins and she has already had shock treatments done before this pregnancy she was in like a pyschosis, it reminded me of andrea yates, its really freaky....and she already has 2 little girls that she would let play outsied with nobody watching and they were like 5 and 2.....


So she'll have four young children? That would put a serious strain on someone already "unstable." Hopefully, her husband has some idea of what he's in for. I'll be praying for everything to work out for them.

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:04 PM
I think that anyone who kills their babies are insane. IMO....

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:04 PM
I think that anyone who kills their babies are insane. IMO....


What if they deny it?

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:05 PM
So she'll have four young children? That would put a serious strain on someone already "unstable." Hopefully, her husband has some idea of what he's in for. I'll be praying for everything to work out for them.
yes it will be 4 and we are concerned but of course everyone is hush hush about it....you know these things are usually a "family matter"....blah blah, thats unfortunatly how many of these things happens when people see it and dont intervene...

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:06 PM
yes it will be 4 and we are concerned but of course everyone is hush hush about it....you know these things are usually a "family matter"....blah blah, thats unfortunatly how many of these things happens when people see it and dont intervene...


Do you think she'll get her tubes tied now or will her husband wake up and put the brakes on the baby making?

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:08 PM
Do you think she'll get her tubes tied now or will her husband wake up and put the brakes on the baby making?
who knows i hope she gets them tied i worry that she will have a relapse or something....

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:09 PM
What if they deny it?
I dont know really, i just think murdering your child, something isnt right....Now diane downs i dont know about her shes a tough cookie to figure out. I think she was just evil and sinister......And as far as darlie routier goes, i cant figure out if shes guilty or not....Be easy on me thats just my opinion....:D

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 06:10 PM
From what I remember, she was of the mind that she was destroying them spiratually or something to that effect because she was a bad mother. She thought she had to kill them before their souls were evil. She didn't want to be stopped because that meant the kids going to hell. Now she is merely a danger to herself.
You are right Jeana.. I remember that as well.. however, she knew it was wrong one way or another... how can killing your children be right? I also believe her kids are in heaven with the Lord so she did accomplish what she set out to do... sad, however...

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:11 PM
I dont know really, i just think murdering your child, something isnt right....Now diane downs i dont know about her shes a tough cookie to figure out. I think she was just evil and sinister......And as far as darlie routier goes, i cant figure out if shes guilty or not....Be easy on me thats just my opinion....:D


You KNEW exactly where I was headed. :angel:

Details
11-09-2005, 06:11 PM
I think that anyone who kills their babies are insane. IMO....Where is insanity - just believing there are harmless invisible blue pixies above everyone's head, killing another person (any other person), raping, pedophile, murdering others children, murdering your children....

Depends on how you define insanity I think.

But criminally insane - I think that's where you don't know right from wrong - you can think it is right to kill your children. I think that test Andrea passes and Suzanne Smith fails. A person who kills another person because they believe they are an evil space alien who will destroy the world is insane; a person who kills another person because they are annoying to them, and they think that's enough reason is not insane (criminally insane, anyway).

To me, insanity is where the world is not real, you can't see the real world. A narcissist sees the real world, just thinks that it all exists for them, so they kill because they don't think the other person is that important. A lunatic kills because they think these people are evil or attacking them or monsters or god tells them to or whatever.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:13 PM
You are right Jeana.. I remember that as well.. however, she knew it was wrong one way or another... how can killing your children be right? I also believe her kids are in heaven with the Lord so she did accomplish what she set out to do... sad, however...


That's where the evil preacher comes into the picture. She was brainwashed to believe that she couldn't do what needed to be done for them on this earth, so she had to give them up to God. I guess if you honestly think that you're saving them from eternal damnation, killing them in order for them to go to Heaven would be the right thing to do. She really was getting it from all sides, IMO. You're right though. Its just so very sad.

Details
11-09-2005, 06:15 PM
You are right Jeana.. I remember that as well.. however, she knew it was wrong one way or another... how can killing your children be right? I also believe her kids are in heaven with the Lord so she did accomplish what she set out to do... sad, however...I don't think she thought it was wrong in any way. She knew people would try to stop her, but that doesn't make it wrong (in her mind). She thought if the kids were killed they'd go to heaven, if they weren't killed, they'd go to hell. It's nuts, but it's what she was being taught, what she believed. From that religious perspective, she made a 'rational' decision, even a self sacrificing one (condemning herself to hell to save the kids from that fate). She was insane and in that insane world she was doing the right thing.

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 06:15 PM
Susan Smith was completely different - she may have been depressed, but her motivation was sane - trying to keep her boyfriend she did something she knew was wrong. It was obvious in the way she tried to lie and get away with it. Insanity - they don't have that self preservation, selfishness. The other case I don't know anything about.

I completely agree. She KNEW exactly what she was doing. And besides, I think depression is totally different than what Andrea has. She has some phycosis (sp?) IMO. Susan was depressed that a MAN didn't want her. She's selfish and a horrible person, IMO. If she didn't want her children she should have just given them to their daddy. I'm sure he would have been more then happy to have them. But again, she's too selfish to let anyone else raise her children. GRRRRR that woman just makes my blood boil, sorry.

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 06:19 PM
I think that anyone who kills their babies are insane. IMO....

It's an insane and atrocious act for sure, but I don't think all these woman that kill their children are truly "insane". They do it for all kinds of reasons. Money, men, selfishness ... you name it. They are not all insane as I believe AY to be. I have my doubts about that Tyler woman that was found not guilty by reason of insanity this week in the stoning deaths of her sons. I don't really know what to think of her.

bugs
11-09-2005, 06:19 PM
Some people who murder their kids are just down right mean - bottomline!

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:19 PM
I love websleuths its nice to be able to disagree and not fight.......I on the other habd think susan smith was mentally ill, she has a long history of sexual abuse against her her daddy killed himself he was mental and so on....but any way i dont know too much about andrea yates, but was she ill as a child??

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:21 PM
It's an insane and atrocious act for sure, but I don't think all these woman that kill their children are truly "insane". They do it for all kinds of reasons. Money, men, selfishness ... you name it. They are not all insane as I believe AY to be. I have my doubts about that Tyler woman that was found not guilty by reason of insanity this week in the stoning deaths of her sons. I don't really know what to think of her.

I really dont know much about that either, but dang why did she have to stone them....man, what a horrific way to go those poor children, i mean i know drowning or any other way isnt horrific but that is crazy!!

Details
11-09-2005, 06:23 PM
Andrea Yates had the postpartum depression, made worse by her husband's refusal to follow doctors orders, and some medicine failings (she was taken abruptly off of meds she should have been gradually weaned off). It's quite a case - I'm sure there's a good link around here somewhere on it. It's pretty close to something where I'd just say that Russell Yates killed those kids.

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:25 PM
she looks crazy, i mean i have seen pics of her and it gives me the creeps....:eek:

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:26 PM
Andrea Yates had a full blown post-partum psychosis from two kids back. She was not feeding herself, not bathing herself and barely talking - and was pulling her own hair out. There's NO WAY in hell she should have been out of a hospital - FORGET about anywhere near five kids for ANY period of time. Her husband, her family, his mother and her doctors can all share the blame for this tragedy.

bugs
11-09-2005, 06:27 PM
I love websleuths its nice to be able to disagree and not fight.......I on the other habd think susan smith was mentally ill, she has a long history of sexual abuse against her her daddy killed himself he was mental and so on....but any way i dont know too much about andrea yates, but was she ill as a child??


Hope this helps.

Andrea Yates was born Andrea Kennedy on July 2, 1964 into a middle class family in Houston, the youngest of five children. She had developed a very close relationship with her father, a high school teacher, and she liked to help other people. She graduated from high school as class valedictorian and had been captain of the swim team. She had been shy with boys but was goal-oriented like the rest of her family, and had good friends. She earned a nursing degree from the University of Texas Health Science Center and found work as a registered nurse. She quit after she married and had her first child.

Timothy Roche delved deep into her history for Time and discovered a rather disturbing picture of a troubled family, including a long history of mental illness for Yates. But there was more, emphasized in a documentary for Court TV's Mugshots. The form mental illness takes often has an outside influence, and this one was insidious.

Andrea and Rusty had met when they were both 25. Rusty had seen her swimming in a pool of his apartment complex and had decided he was interested in her. She introduced herself to him and they dated for three years. In 1993, they were married and a year later had Noah. They planned on having as many children as came along, whatever God wanted for them, and told friends they expected six.

Yet soon after Noah was born, Andrea began to have violent visions: she saw someone being stabbed. She thought she heard Satan speak to her. However, she and her husband had idealistic, Bible-inspired notions about family and motherhood, so she kept her tormenting secrets to herself. She didn't realize how much mental illness there was in her own family, from depression to bipolar disorder—which can contribute to postpartum psychosis. In her initial stages, she remained undiagnosed and untreated. She kept her secrets from everyone.

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 06:28 PM
I really dont know much about that either, but dang why did she have to stone them....man, what a horrific way to go those poor children, i mean i know drowning or any other way isnt horrific but that is crazy!!

I'm glad that we agree to disagree about Susan Smith without fighting. It's just sometimes the mention of her name makes my blood boil. :furious:

I shouldn't have made my comment above about the Tyler woman that stoned her children. I don't know enough about that case to form a rational opinion, just an emotional one. Prayers for those boys. :angel: :angel:. I believe one of them survived but is blind from it. God Bless them. Absolutely horrific.

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:30 PM
I'm glad that we agree to disagree about Susan Smith without fighting. It's just sometimes the mention of her name makes my blood boil. :furious:

I shouldn't have made my comment above about the Tyler woman that stoned her children. I don't know enough about that case to form a rational opinion, just an emotional one. Prayers for those boys. :angel: :angel:. I believe one of them survived but is blind from it. God Bless them. Absolutely horrific.
i know i dont know much about andrea yates, but i didnt know she pulled out her own hair, thats sick...

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 06:30 PM
I don't think she thought it was wrong in any way. She knew people would try to stop her, but that doesn't make it wrong (in her mind). She thought if the kids were killed they'd go to heaven, if they weren't killed, they'd go to hell. It's nuts, but it's what she was being taught, what she believed. From that religious perspective, she made a 'rational' decision, even a self sacrificing one (condemning herself to hell to save the kids from that fate). She was insane and in that insane world she was doing the right thing.
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree ... There are some very mentally ill people out there that need help and I do believe Andrea is one of them..

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 06:31 PM
Andrea Yates had a full blown post-partum psychosis from two kids back. She was not feeding herself, not bathing herself and barely talking - and was pulling her own hair out. There's NO WAY in hell she should have been out of a hospital - FORGET about anywhere near five kids for ANY period of time. Her husband, her family, his mother and her doctors can all share the blame for this tragedy.


Yes, and that moron Rusty knew all this and continued to impregnate her and put her in impossible stressful situations. :furious:

I wish I would run into Rusty on the street one day in Houston. I think I'd spit in his eye.

bugs
11-09-2005, 06:31 PM
i know i dont know much about andrea yates, but i didnt know she pulled out her own hair, thats sick...


Her Mother-in-law said she would twist her hair around her finger like she was in deep thought and eventually bald spots started showing.

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 06:33 PM
I wish I would run into Rusty on the street one day in Houston. I think I'd spit in his eye.

You know, I'm a little annoyed at Rusty. He swore he would never divorce her, and then what does he go and do? Divorce her.:razz: I hope he at least attends the next trial to show his support of her.

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 06:33 PM
i know i dont know much about andrea yates, but i didnt know she pulled out her own hair, thats sick...

This woman is truly ill Michelle. She needs help, not a prison term. God Bless the Yates children. :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

Now Rusty Yates on the other hand .... :loser:

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:34 PM
Yes, and that moron Rusty knew all this and continued to impregnate her and put her in impossible stressful situations. :furious:

I wish I would run into Rusty on the street one day in Houston. I think I'd spit in his eye.
Why didnt anybody try to intervene with her if they all knew she was sick?
and i heard that her kids were afraid of her, thats so sad.....

Just like susan smith, she was being molested by her stepdad from age 16 on and when her mom was told they didnt do anything.....thats just sick...

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:34 PM
When a family member in charge of young children starts this type of behavior, that's when other family members need to show up in court to get custody of the kids away from them. ANYONE can petition the court for custody. If Andrea's doctors were failing her, a petition in family court to have her children removed could have sparked a judge to order mental testing that the state could pay for, if necessary. There are other ways around these issues than just standing back and hoping for the best. Anytime helpless children are involved, we need to, as a society, worry MOREE about those childrens' rights than the parents' rights. After all, parents who love their children are willing to give up EVERYTHING for them - including some civil rights, right? LOL OFF MY SOAPBOX NOW. :doh:

NewMom2003
11-09-2005, 06:35 PM
You know, I'm a little annoyed at Rusty. He swore he would never divorce her, and then what does he go and do? Divorce her.:razz: I hope he at least attends the next trial to show his support of her.

I doubt he will. He's probably too busy out looking for a new wife. He infuriates me.

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:36 PM
Did andrea have a mother around or any siblings? Or was it just rustys family...

Details
11-09-2005, 06:45 PM
Did andrea have a mother around or any siblings? Or was it just rustys family...IIRC, Rusty cut her off from her other family or friends. Typical control behavior. She was isolated, as a 'good wife' is supposed to be. :banghead:

bugs
11-09-2005, 06:46 PM
IIRC, Rusty cut her off from her other family or friends. Typical control behavior. She was isolated, as a 'good wife' is supposed to be. :banghead:


I didn't know that - you know that makes me dislike him even more!!! :mad:

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 06:46 PM
IIRC, Rusty cut her off from her other family or friends. Typical control behavior. She was isolated, as a 'good wife' is supposed to be. :banghead:


Rusty would have burried us in the backyard a long time ago, huh? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: My momma taught me not to take chit off no one. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

michelle
11-09-2005, 06:48 PM
I am not liking rusty.....

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 06:50 PM
I think Rusty needs to be held accountable for this as well.. Afterall, he was the so called "man of the house" :loser: . He knew what was going on with her.. From what I read he even walked in on her while she was trying to split her wrists (if I read that correctly)... How can you not know anything is going on.. he must have seen the changes in her appearance as well.. :banghead: He was also the one who liked this so called preacher and should have stepped in when he heard about some of his misleading teachings.. Where was his head at? He works for an space engineering company and he doesn't have the smarts to know when a preacher is misleading his flock?

shopper
11-09-2005, 06:52 PM
I am not liking rusty.....

I saw him on LKL about a year or so ago, at the same time as David Smith (Susan Smith's ex) and the difference between those two men was astounding. Both lost their children by drowing by their wives. You could see on DS's face that it is still a struggle for him, that he's grieving and angry still. But Rusty was a whole other story.

Rusty is a moron IMO, he still doesn't totally get it, if at all.

bugs
11-09-2005, 06:52 PM
I think Rusty needs to be held accountable for this as well.. Afterall, he was the so called "man of the house" :loser: . He knew what was going on with her.. From what I read he even walked in on her while she was trying to split her wrists (if I read that correctly)... How can you not know anything is going on.. he must have seen the changes in her appearance as well.. :banghead: He was also the one who liked this so called preacher and should have stepped in when he heard about some of his misleading teachings.. Where was his head at? He works for an space engineering company and he doesn't have the smarts to know when a preacher is misleading his flock?


I can almost bet he made fun of her illness. Probably called her names. He more than likely made her more insane by denying her true feelings she was trying to get across to him.

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 06:55 PM
I think Rusty needs to be held accountable for this as well.. Afterall, he was the so called "man of the house" :loser: . He knew what was going on with her.. From what I read he even walked in on her while she was trying to split her wrists (if I read that correctly)... How can you not know anything is going on.. he must have seen the changes in her appearance as well.. :banghead: He was also the one who liked this so called preacher and should have stepped in when he heard about some of his misleading teachings.. Where was his head at? He works for an space engineering company and he doesn't have the smarts to know when a preacher is misleading his flock?

I think this is the core matter,PaperDoll, the denial aspect. And in Rusty's case I would say neglect more than denial. What was his motive? Control aspects of his surroundings? Whoever posted about him seeming gleeful, I agree.Also believe he was looking for an absence of responsibility. JMO.

michelle
11-09-2005, 07:00 PM
i seen that LKL and i remember david smith just crying and rusty never seemed to show emotion...

Amraann
11-09-2005, 07:04 PM
THere ar plenty who are mentally ill.

I agree Susan Smith was mentally ill.... However, I also think she was selfish sand her motive was that coupled with mental illness.
Andrea??? WHOAH a new ball game.
Maybe legally in her insanity she did in fact know mankinds right from wrong.
But she believed a higher power would influence her childrens lives. In the reahlm of that in her mind she was not right.

Insanity is not a black and white issue. Sadly Andrea was well into Gray.
Based on her history she is insane. Never fit to live in society, but does that mean we throw her in prison? (subject her to the cruelty of real criminals who would harm those mentally ill and vunerable??)
I would hope not. I think the definition of sane legally should be revised.
Andrea was not a drug addict, she had no financial gain, her husband did not do anything reported to cause a jealous rage..
Her intention I truly believe was somehow in her own head to save her children. Now if the rest of us do not qualify that as insane then what is??

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 07:06 PM
I agree with you Ams. Well said.

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 07:07 PM
I can almost bet he made fun of her illness. Probably called her names. He more than likely made her more insane by denying her true feelings she was trying to get across to him.
Yep, somehow I bet he had a way of turning things around to make himself look like the good guy... I do believe he needs to be held accountable..

I also think he knew something wasn't right with her when he left for work that day and yet he left.. I also believe she had said that she had urges to kill her kids before.. why didn't anyone listen to this.. This also tells me that she was crying out for help because she didn't want to kill her kids...I think she knew it was wrong to do...

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 07:11 PM
Of all the high profile crimes I believe Andrea Yates was truly insane...I think she went in and out of reality. Small bits here and there but there are people who knew she couldn't even bathe herself and left her with children? This is criminal on the part of those with knowledge. I am not exonerating Andrea for what she did but saying she shouldn't have had the responsibility in the first place.Sometimes the sideline people have a motive.

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 07:13 PM
Rusty on Abrams now!

Details
11-09-2005, 07:15 PM
Rusty probably used the usual escape: "Just believe in God enough and the bad feelings will go away - if you are having problems it's your fault for being a sinner."

Gozgals
11-09-2005, 07:19 PM
Yep, somehow I bet he had a way of turning things around to make himself look like the good guy... I do believe he needs to be held accountable..

I also think he knew something wasn't right with her when he left for work that day and yet he left.. I also believe she had said that she had urges to kill her kids before.. why didn't anyone listen to this.. This also tells me that she was crying out for help because she didn't want to kill her kids...I think she knew it was wrong to do...
I'm glad that she was granted a new trial. It will not serve much purpose except to bring to light the plight of those that are really mentally ill.

Somehow it appears Rusty has wasted no TIME making the rounds already doing the TALK show circuit. I find him to be culpable in this whole matter as many do.

As Jeana pointed out earlier, Andrea will spend her life in a mental facility. Where that will be probably won't afford her much care in the way of getting much better with her mental illness. The blame lies with the Drs., the husband, and all those that knew of her vulnerabilities yet stood by and let this tragedy occur.

The sadness is the loss of her children. Maybe this whole matter could have been avoided if the interest of the children was taken into account and was the top priority -- and also RUSTY did not continue to choose to keep reproducing.

This is just a situation that may keep occurring, not to this extent if the mentally ill are not treated sooner.

michelle
11-09-2005, 07:20 PM
I missed rusty on abrams what did he say??

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 07:26 PM
I won't post a lot more on this subject but I don't want to know what Rusty said. Rusty is about Rusty and he is part and parcel to this horrendous happening. I see his brain as overloaded with self-importence and magical thinking and none of his opinions are valued. At least by me. JMO.

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 08:17 PM
I think Susan is evil where Andrea is sick. Susan's kids were in her way of her new love. In the letter he wrote to her to break up he said something to the effect that he didn't want them.
I think Susan Smith's understanding of what it means to be a parent was warped from a early age, what with her dad's suicide and her stepfather screwing her up until days before her arrest. Yetch.

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 08:22 PM
I really dont know much about that either, but dang why did she have to stone them....man, what a horrific way to go those poor children, i mean i know drowning or any other way isnt horrific but that is crazy!!
Stoning is from the bible. It was how the earliest martyrs died.

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 08:24 PM
Andrea Yates had a full blown post-partum psychosis from two kids back. She was not feeding herself, not bathing herself and barely talking - and was pulling her own hair out. There's NO WAY in hell she should have been out of a hospital - FORGET about anywhere near five kids for ANY period of time. Her husband, her family, his mother and her doctors can all share the blame for this tragedy.
And somehow Rusty was turned on enough to make more babies with this woman. Go figure.

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 08:41 PM
I missed rusty on abrams what did he say??

He said a bunch of stuff, but I didn't catch it all cause I was cleaning up my kitchen. However I did catch some stuff. One thing he said was that he doesn't know if he'll be allowed to attend the trial, cause he wasn't allowed the last one because he was a witness. He also said that he sees Andrea once a month and she's a totally different person. He also stated that he hopes it doesn't go to trial.

shopper
11-09-2005, 08:50 PM
Rusty should IMO keep his dumb mouth shut, especially since a good chunk of the blame is on him. He never contributes anything worthwhile and only makes himself look bad every time. He divorced her and has moved on, he needs to butt out of her case regardless of any kind of "justice" or treatment for her. He had his chance to show concern when it counted and now it's a case of too little too late.



JMO

kk's mom
11-09-2005, 09:18 PM
I don't know. I don't think Rusty Yates helped matters any by continuing to get his wife pregnant when he knew she was unstable after what, the 3rd? Now, I might catch some slack here and I'm only just voicing my opinion so keep that in mind. Those who defend Andrea Yates say that she is most likely not guilty of the murders of her children due to mental illness. And I guess that might be right. But this guy stood by this woman from day one of this tragedy. He testified in her defense and argued against the public's perception that this woman was a witch and a monster. I think he deseves a little better than to be blamed for the murders and to be vilified as a cruel, domineering husband. He might have his quirks but keep in mind, he loved his wife and he loved his kids. He tried to do what he could in a situation that you nor I could even imagine being in. Whether mental or not mental, it's Andrea Yates, not Rusty Yates, who killed their five children. I believe she belongs in jail and should never have the chance to see daylight again. I believe that because when I look at the pictures of the innocent lives she took, her own children, it turns my stomach and makes me cry just wondering what they went through at the hands of their own mother.

LinasK
11-09-2005, 09:26 PM
I don't know. I don't think Rusty Yates helped matters any by continuing to get his wife pregnant when he knew she was unstable after what, the 3rd? Now, I might catch some slack here and I'm only just voicing my opinion so keep that in mind. Those who defend Andrea Yates say that she is most likely not guilty of the murders of her children due to mental illness. And I guess that might be right.
I don't believe Rusty stood by her at all. It goes beyond continuing to impregnate a woman known to have severe post-partum depression. He prematurely took her out of a mental hospital, didn't ensure that she kept on her meds. Indoctrinated her with that preacher's teaching about what a lousy mother she was. Made her home-school 5 small children (and mostly boys at that!). Didn't help out with dish-washing, and left a woman who couldn't care for herself because of her depression alone for even a minute with children she had expressed thoughts of killing. I too blame Rusty's part, her psychiatrist that d/c'ed her meds and discharged her, and the preacher for their parts in the murders. I think they too are Guilty to a lesser degree of these deaths. And why didn't Rusty's mother arrive as soon as he had to leave for work or stay overnight???:banghead:

blueclouds
11-09-2005, 09:29 PM
I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they get her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(

Wish I had "two thumbs up" smiley... :clap: well said.

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 09:30 PM
I don't believe Rusty stood by her at all. It goes beyond continuing to impregnant a woman known to have severe post-partum depression. He prematurely took her out of a mental hospital, didn't ensure that she kept on her meds. Indoctrinated her with that preacher's teaching about what a lousy mother she was. Made her home-school 5 small children (and mostly boys at that!). Didn't help out with dish-washing, and left a woman who couldn't care for herself because of her depression alone for even a minute with children she had expressed thoughts of killing. I too blame Rusty's part, her psychiatrist that d/c'ed her meds and discharged her, and the preacher for their parts in the murders. I think they too are Guilty to a lesser degree of these deaths. And why didn't Rusty's mother arrive as soon as he had to leave for work or stay overnight???:banghead:
Great questions! There are other culpable people....have they been charged? No, they haven't. I am usually not in defense of a mental illness killing but this is an exception to the rule. These people knew....dammit they knew. Their dancing around issues is disgusting.

blueclouds
11-09-2005, 09:31 PM
Rusty should IMO keep his dumb mouth shut, especially since a good chunk of the blame is on him. He never contributes anything worthwhile and only makes himself look bad every time. He divorced her and has moved on, he needs to butt out of her case regardless of any kind of "justice" or treatment for her. He had his chance to show concern when it counted and now it's a case of too little too late.



JMO
I still don't get how they didn't charge him with something. HE KNEW -------------HE KNEW!!!!!!!!!! not to get her pregnant again but yet.... poor Rusty WANTED more children.... what a piece of scum. I hope he lives his own hell. AND HOW DARE HE EVER EVER WANT MARRIAGE AND MORE CHILDREN. God I hope the state watches him if he ever has children again. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

shopper
11-09-2005, 09:39 PM
I don't know. I don't think Rusty Yates helped matters any by continuing to get his wife pregnant when he knew she was unstable after what, the 3rd? Now, I might catch some slack here and I'm only just voicing my opinion so keep that in mind. Those who defend Andrea Yates say that she is most likely not guilty of the murders of her children due to mental illness. And I guess that might be right. But this guy stood by this woman from day one of this tragedy. He testified in her defense and argued against the public's perception that this woman was a witch and a monster. I think he deseves a little better than to be blamed for the murders and to be vilified as a cruel, domineering husband. He might have his quirks but keep in mind, he loved his wife and he loved his kids. He tried to do what he could in a situation that you nor I could even imagine being in. Whether mental or not mental, it's Andrea Yates, not Rusty Yates, who killed their five children. I believe she belongs in jail and should never have the chance to see daylight again. I believe that because when I look at the pictures of the innocent lives she took, her own children, it turns my stomach and makes me cry just wondering what they went through at the hands of their own mother.

No bashing from me. Yes, Andrea is the one who took each of them (chased one) into the bathroom and held their heads underwater while they struggled to get air. She owns that. But she was/is very mentally ill, being mentally ill is not her fault, she didn't have the capacity to get her own self the kind of help she needed. So, it was up to her husband to do it as the sane, responsible adult and protector of his children.

IMO Rusty is ignorant and it's no more his fault than it is Andrea's that she's extremely mentally ill. But there is no excuse for ignorance, when he had professionals telling him what was best for his wife, the wife he didn't know what to do with.

It's complicated and I know it's not so black and white. Also, it is my understanding that their health insurance wouldn't pay for a lot of her treatment so there is more than enough blame to go around.

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 09:45 PM
You can file with any State for an involuntary commitment order if you believe that someone is a danger to themselves or someone else. They will normally abide that at least until evaluation is presented. It takes 30 days before the person is let go. Almost any responsible person would do this and then wonder what went wrong with the system. Rusty didn't do this.

shopper
11-09-2005, 09:49 PM
I still don't get how they didn't charge him with something. HE KNEW -------------HE KNEW!!!!!!!!!! not to get her pregnant again but yet.... poor Rusty WANTED more children.... what a piece of scum. I hope he lives his own hell. AND HOW DARE HE EVER EVER WANT MARRIAGE AND MORE CHILDREN. God I hope the state watches him if he ever has children again. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


I know. :sick:

I'm sure there's a desperado out there that would love to marry him, but I can't fathom such a woman.

LinasK
11-09-2005, 09:51 PM
Also, it is my understanding that their health insurance wouldn't pay for a lot of her treatment so there is more than enough blame to go around.
I'm sorry, but you don't prematurely take a mentally ill person home 1)because insurance won't pay and 2)leave her alone at home for any length of time- that's like leaving a child home unattended with a book of matches- just plain stupid!!!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 10:00 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't prematurely take a mentally ill person home 1)because insurance won't pay and 2)leave her alone at home for any length of time- that's like leaving a child home unattended with a book of matches- just plain stupid!!!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

But you and I know that this could happen. Doesn't excuse any of this but it happens.

shopper
11-09-2005, 10:11 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't prematurely take a mentally ill person home 1)because insurance won't pay and 2)leave her alone at home for any length of time- that's like leaving a child home unattended with a book of matches- just plain stupid!!!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

No argument here. I'm just thinking big picture by saying there is plenty of blame to go around, but ultimately it was up to Rusty, as the sane one, to do whatever needed to be done. Their insurance company was just doing what all ins. com's do, screw over their customers (MO, they don't care one iota about their paying customers), so he should have fought with them or dropped her off at the nearest state mental hospital, have full-time live-in help, something!

LinasK
11-09-2005, 10:17 PM
No argument here. I'm just thinking big picture by saying there is plenty of blame to go around, but ultimately it was up to Rusty, as the sane one, to do whatever needed to be done. Their insurance company was just doing what all ins. com's do, screw over their customers (MO, they don't care one iota about their paying customers), so he should have fought with them or dropped her off at the nearest state mental hospital, have full-time live-in help, something!
Agree with you completely on this.

jilly
11-09-2005, 10:45 PM
I saw him on LKL about a year or so ago, at the same time as David Smith (Susan Smith's ex) and the difference between those two men was astounding. Both lost their children by drowing by their wives. You could see on DS's face that it is still a struggle for him, that he's grieving and angry still. But Rusty was a whole other story.

Rusty is a moron IMO, he still doesn't totally get it, if at all.

I remember watching the show and thinking the same as you. My heart went out to David and my finger went out to Rusty. What a dope. Makes me think that he's one of those academics with no common sense.

concernedperson
11-09-2005, 10:49 PM
I remember watching the show and thinking the same as you. My heart went out to David and my finger went out to Rusty. What a dope. Makes me think that he's one of those academics with no common sense.
Don't credit him with academics he is not worthy.

shopper
11-09-2005, 10:54 PM
I remember watching the show and thinking the same as you. My heart went out to David and my finger went out to Rusty. What a dope. Makes me think that he's one of those academics with no common sense.

Poor David Smith, it's painful for me to even look at him. He has two young kids now and seems to really want to be happy, but can't quite get there. :(

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 11:16 PM
she did lie for 9 days about her children and then broke down and confessed, it was testified to that susan had mental illnesses, she had them since she was 6 years old and her father killed himself due to his own mental illness, i am not by any means defending her but i have studied this case inside and out and did papers for school on her and in my opinion, shes got mental issues....

I don't feel real sorry for Susan Smith and her mental issues. Heck, we all have them to one degree or another. But, insane? I think not.

But Andrea Yates is in a different realm, you can't even compare these two cases. Susan Smith is a cold-blooded narcissitic murderer. She reminds me a lot of SP. She wanted what she wanted and got rid of what she believed to be in her way. People-are-dispensable type of attitude.

She will answer dearly someday for her crimes. So will Andrea Yates, but she is the most insane person I've yet to see.

:twocents:

IMO

cinsbythesea
11-09-2005, 11:24 PM
:laugh:


Don't credit him with academics he is not worthy.

Oh how I wish I had said this!!!

michelle
11-09-2005, 11:31 PM
I don't feel real sorry for Susan Smith and her mental issues. Heck, we all have them to one degree or another. But, insane? I think not.

But Andrea Yates is in a different realm, you can't even compare these two cases. Susan Smith is a cold-blooded narcissitic murderer. She reminds me a lot of SP. She wanted what she wanted and got rid of what she believed to be in her way. People-are-dispensable type of attitude.

She will answer dearly someday for her crimes. So will Andrea Yates, but she is the most insane person I've yet to see.

:twocents:

IMO
I dont think that susan smith is like SP at all....Susan did and does have mental illnesses to this day and it was testified in her trial there is no disputing that.....She has a long history of mental illness and there was alot that went on with her and surrounding the murders of her children. She was on and off medication as well. Also the girl was molested by her stepdad, no one intervened, her dad killed himself and there was some serious things going on in her family, she was warped from a young age.Everyone testified to what a great mother she was and they couldnt believe she would do this..These woman who kill have some serious issues going on and i dont think they all just do it for the heck of it or to get a man, some do, but not all...JMO

jilly
11-10-2005, 12:00 AM
Don't credit him with academics he is not worthy.

I only accredited him as an academic because he's an engineer at NASA - but now that I say that, I'm starting to wonder about NASA!!:eek:

michelle
11-10-2005, 12:01 AM
I only accredited him as an academic because he's an engineer at NASA - but now that I say that, I'm starting to wonder about NASA!!:eek:
I would think that since he is obviously smart that he would have helped andrea and realized something was seriously wrong....Some people have book knowledge but no common sense.....

OneLostGrl
11-10-2005, 12:11 AM
You can file with any State for an involuntary commitment order if you believe that someone is a danger to themselves or someone else. They will normally abide that at least until evaluation is presented. It takes 30 days before the person is let go. Almost any responsible person would do this and then wonder what went wrong with the system. Rusty didn't do this.

In 1999 my mother attempted to do this to/for me and Connecticut, the state that we lived in at the time, refused to involuntary commit me, saying that now a-days, only an MD can have a person commited against their will.

Oh, how I remember my mom B*tching at them saying "If my daughter ends up taking her own life, it's on YOU people!"

Such an injustice they don't have a federal mandate for such things especially when children are at risk.

jilly
11-10-2005, 12:57 AM
I would think that since he is obviously smart that he would have helped andrea and realized something was seriously wrong....Some people have book knowledge but no common sense.....

That's right - book smart as opposed to street.:)

cinsbythesea
11-10-2005, 01:23 AM
I dont think that susan smith is like SP at all....Susan did and does have mental illnesses to this day and it was testified in her trial there is no disputing that.....She has a long history of mental illness and there was alot that went on with her and surrounding the murders of her children. She was on and off medication as well. Also the girl was molested by her stepdad, no one intervened, her dad killed himself and there was some serious things going on in her family, she was warped from a young age.Everyone testified to what a great mother she was and they couldnt believe she would do this..These woman who kill have some serious issues going on and i dont think they all just do it for the heck of it or to get a man, some do, but not all...JMO

IMO, Susan Smith is a lot like SP--she lied for days on end about what she had done...SP was more savvy about lying than her, but Susan Smith set up a whole crime scenario about what had happened, SP didn't even do that, he just came home to (ahem) find his wife missing. Susan Smith set about killing her boys as deliberately as SP set about killing Laci. As far as Susan being "warped from a young age" there's now an awful lot that's coming about from books being written that SP too may have been "warped from a young age" due to Jackie and Lee. The only difference I see between Susan and Scott is that she actually admitted to what she had done--he hasn't and probably never will, but they both set about to carry these murderous acts out in the hopes that they would not get caught. IMO.

michelle
11-10-2005, 05:51 AM
IMO, Susan Smith is a lot like SP--she lied for days on end about what she had done...SP was more savvy about lying than her, but Susan Smith set up a whole crime scenario about what had happened, SP didn't even do that, he just came home to (ahem) find his wife missing. Susan Smith set about killing her boys as deliberately as SP set about killing Laci. As far as Susan being "warped from a young age" there's now an awful lot that's coming about from books being written that SP too may have been "warped from a young age" due to Jackie and Lee. The only difference I see between Susan and Scott is that she actually admitted to what she had done--he hasn't and probably never will, but they both set about to carry these murderous acts out in the hopes that they would not get caught. IMO.

I know SP was warped also but susan was on medications throughout her young life to adult life and it was evident to teachers and family that something was wrong, she always talked about killing herself to stop the pain which it was in her mind she thought she was doing for her children....I guess this is my opinion as well and since we wont ever be able to get into their heads i guess we can only go on our opinion and what the psychiatirist say...:D and thats what was testified in her trial.....but i know sp was and is crazy, but he reminds me of just the flat out evil, like he showed no remorse at all...

BillyGoatGruff
11-10-2005, 06:04 PM
I would think that since he is obviously smart that he would have helped andrea and realized something was seriously wrong....Some people have book knowledge but no common sense.....
If he was really smart he wouldn't be so wrapped up in a crackpot religion. Makes me wonder if he's not just a jumped-up key punch operator.

Details
11-10-2005, 06:16 PM
Smart or not, I don't think he cared. He had what he wanted - a wife and family doing what he said. The wife was going nuts, but making her sane was too much work, would require him to inconvenience himself, so he just ignored her, kept doing what he wanted, with a preacher to tell him it was right, would get him into heaven.

Jules
11-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Smart or not, I don't think he cared. He had what he wanted - a wife and family doing what he said. The wife was going nuts, but making her sane was too much work, would require him to inconvenience himself, so he just ignored her, kept doing what he wanted, with a preacher to tell him it was right, would get him into heaven.

I don't think Rusty really fully understood how sick she was. He was gone a majority of the day. I'm sure the evenings were hectic once he got home. I'm sure the kids wanted time with him, etc. If he spent a few hours a night with Andrea - that was probably a lot. The thing that gets me is the not showering. You can bet you life if my hubby didn't shower for more than a day or two I'd be saying "get your nasty butt in the shower." :eek: :innocent: I can't imagine him not doing something about her bathing. Heck, I would have stripped her and gotten in the shower with her if I was him. There is just no excuse for going that long without bathing. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

For that alone he should have had neglect charges filed against him.

Jeana (DP)
11-10-2005, 06:24 PM
Jules, honey. He knew. I read his interviews. The knew exactly how sick she was and wasn't surprised when she murdered the kids. :o

michelle
11-10-2005, 06:32 PM
he knew exactly how sick she was and wasn't surprised when she murdered the kids. :o
maybe thats why in every interview i have seen him in he isnt crying or sobbing, i dont understand that...

Jules
11-10-2005, 06:32 PM
Jules, honey. He knew. I read his interviews. The knew exactly how sick she was and wasn't surprised when she murdered the kids. :o

Poorly worded - sorry. I know he knew and wasn't surprised. I guess what I was trying to say was that I think by him not being home most of the day, it was his way out. Does that make sense? Been a long day....

In other words, he chose not to deal with it because he wasn't there to deal with it.

NewMom2003
11-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Jules, honey. He knew. I read his interviews. The knew exactly how sick she was and wasn't surprised when she murdered the kids. :o

And for that by itself, he's culpable in the deaths of those poor children.

Jeana (DP)
11-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Poorly worded - sorry. I know he knew and wasn't surprised. I guess what I was trying to say was that I think by him not being home most of the day, it was his way out. Does that make sense? Been a long day....

In other words, he chose not to deal with it because he wasn't there to deal with it.


That makes perfect sense. :( :( :(

Jules
11-10-2005, 06:36 PM
That makes perfect sense. :( :( :(

Kinda like at the end of a long day, who wants to come home and have to deal with an out-of-it wife? Easier to ignore and hope for the best, I guess. :slap: :(

concernedperson
11-10-2005, 06:39 PM
Jeana, I agree. He knew and this doesn't have anything to do with book smarts. He was lazy and needed a slave. An insane slave would be just fine as long as she was espousing his wishes. I am sorry for being harsh about him but I just saw Catherine Crier's show with this case being featured. Parnham was on and will see Andrea tomorrow.

I never forget about the children.....ever. But what I see is avoidance all the way around by the other family members. This wasn't a hidden sneaky endeavor as far as the obvious decline in Andrea's mental health. It was a fact and family members had a responsibility to see that she got help.

I guess Rusty and his family won't be inviting me over for dinner anytime soon.

Jeana (DP)
11-10-2005, 06:45 PM
Kinda like at the end of a long day, who wants to come home and have to deal with an out-of-it wife? Easier to ignore and hope for the best, I guess. :slap: :(


Now he doesn't have to deal with anyone when he comes home. Only the ghosts of his own making.

PaperDoll
11-10-2005, 07:13 PM
Jules, honey. He knew. I read his interviews. The knew exactly how sick she was and wasn't surprised when she murdered the kids. :o
You are right.. he knew she did something to the kids when she called him to tell him to come home right after she killed them

Jules
11-10-2005, 08:45 PM
Now he doesn't have to deal with anyone when he comes home. Only the ghosts of his own making.

Very true and I hope it haunts him for the rest of his life. :mad:

IdahoMom
11-11-2005, 08:37 AM
maybe thats why in every interview i have seen him in he isnt crying or sobbing, i dont understand that...
I'm not defending Rusty for a minute (I believe he deserves punishment, too), but in the show I saw the other day about this case, the police and someone else said that footage of Rusty hysterical on the front lawn hasn't been shown- that he was pounding his fists into the ground, sobbing. Rusty said that he bawls alot behind closed doors.

Gabby
11-11-2005, 09:03 AM
Rusty will forever have to think if only... if only I had stayed home that day until my mother got there, if only, I had made sure there were no more babies.. If only


Now he has divorced Andrea.. abandoned her.... IF ONLY

SewingDeb
11-11-2005, 09:51 AM
I read that Rusty still visits her once a month. That's the least he can do.

Jeana (DP)
11-11-2005, 10:12 AM
I read that Rusty still visits her once a month. That's the least he can do.


He won't if he marries again. Can you see his new wife allowing that????

SewingDeb
11-11-2005, 10:17 AM
He won't if he marries again. Can you see his new wife allowing that????

LOL No...can't say I do.

Jules
11-11-2005, 12:17 PM
I'm not defending Rusty for a minute (I believe he deserves punishment, too), but in the show I saw the other day about this case, the police and someone else said that footage of Rusty hysterical on the front lawn hasn't been shown- that he was pounding his fists into the ground, sobbing. Rusty said that he bawls alot behind closed doors.

I have seen him break down in interviews, etc. But I have to wonder WHY he is breaking down. Is it because his kids are gone, his wife is gone, or is it because HE is now alone. His actions, past and present, seem to be all about him. Very sad. Because of HIM, he's lost everything.

deanws
11-11-2005, 12:22 PM
Susan Smith had the same type of mental illness as Darlie Routier and Debbie Milke - narcassism.OMGosh is that ever a TRUE statement!

deanws
11-11-2005, 12:29 PM
I think that susan smith was and does have mental issues.....It was testified that she was severly depressed and she was on medications and then stopped so i dont think she was like darlie routier where darlie still says she didnt kill her kids and i think darlie was just plain selfish...IMOSusan Smith killed her kids because they were in the way. Her boyfriend to be (she hoped) didn't want a long term relationship with her because he didn't want kids. She is an animal. :twocents:

deanws
11-11-2005, 12:39 PM
I dont know really, i just think murdering your child, something isnt right....Now diane downs i dont know about her shes a tough cookie to figure out. I think she was just evil and sinister......And as far as darlie routier goes, i cant figure out if shes guilty or not....Be easy on me thats just my opinion....:DDD is a cold murdering :silenced: . Another loser that murdered her kids for getting in the way of her social life. God is she a piece of work.

deanws
11-11-2005, 12:46 PM
I love websleuths its nice to be able to disagree and not fight.......I on the other habd think susan smith was mentally ill, she has a long history of sexual abuse against her her daddy killed himself he was mental and so on....but any way i dont know too much about andrea yates, but was she ill as a child??Yes she did. In high school her mother took her to be evaluated. It seemed to pass.

deanws
11-11-2005, 12:48 PM
Some people who murder their kids are just down right mean - bottomline!Exactly Bugs! Some are just creatures!:furious:

deanws
11-11-2005, 12:58 PM
Yes, and that moron Rusty knew all this and continued to impregnate her and put her in impossible stressful situations. :furious:

I wish I would run into Rusty on the street one day in Houston. I think I'd spit in his eye.I do too. He is a selfish fool.:banghead: And this loser will marry again and have more children. I usually NEVER wish bad things on a person...but in this case...I hope his wee-wee rots off. :crazy:

deanws
11-11-2005, 01:06 PM
Rusty should IMO keep his dumb mouth shut, especially since a good chunk of the blame is on him. He never contributes anything worthwhile and only makes himself look bad every time. He divorced her and has moved on, he needs to butt out of her case regardless of any kind of "justice" or treatment for her. He had his chance to show concern when it counted and now it's a case of too little too late.



JMO:clap: :clap: :clap: EXACTLY Shopper!

deanws
11-11-2005, 01:12 PM
I don't know. I don't think Rusty Yates helped matters any by continuing to get his wife pregnant when he knew she was unstable after what, the 3rd? Now, I might catch some slack here and I'm only just voicing my opinion so keep that in mind. Those who defend Andrea Yates say that she is most likely not guilty of the murders of her children due to mental illness. And I guess that might be right. But this guy stood by this woman from day one of this tragedy. He testified in her defense and argued against the public's perception that this woman was a witch and a monster. I think he deseves a little better than to be blamed for the murders and to be vilified as a cruel, domineering husband. He might have his quirks but keep in mind, he loved his wife and he loved his kids. He tried to do what he could in a situation that you nor I could even imagine being in. Whether mental or not mental, it's Andrea Yates, not Rusty Yates, who killed their five children. I believe she belongs in jail and should never have the chance to see daylight again. I believe that because when I look at the pictures of the innocent lives she took, her own children, it turns my stomach and makes me cry just wondering what they went through at the hands of their own mother.I think the only reason he did that was to PROTECT HIMSELF! There was talk about a charge of child endangerment on his part because he knew she was unstable. Rusty does only what makes him look good or makes him money. He had to protect his image so NASA wouldn't fire him. If charges would have been filed against him, his job would have been history. Yep, Rusty is all about Rusty.:furious:

deanws
11-11-2005, 01:16 PM
I know. :sick:

I'm sure there's a desperado out there that would love to marry him, but I can't fathom such a woman.If HB(Scooter) can get married again...anyone can! :doh:

Kaly
11-11-2005, 06:55 PM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Andrea_Yates_case/

Why would it be a horrible thing to put someone with such a severe mental illness into a hospital rather than a prison??

concernedperson
11-11-2005, 07:08 PM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Andrea_Yates_case/

Why would it be a horrible thing to put someone with such a severe mental illness into a hospital rather than a prison??

It wouldn't be. She of all crimes in the news needs to be in a hospital. She is clearly insane and never should have been alone with her children or even herself. I am usually opposed to the insanity defense as it is over used and mostly without merit but in her case it is what it is.

Wudge
11-12-2005, 07:30 PM
In my book, Andrea most likely was nuttier than a fruitcake. A new trial is certainly what I expected would be ordered as her appeal process played itself out. This time, I believe she will be found to have been mentally ill.

Other convicted individuals who had varying high-profile levels associated with their cases and who deserve a new trial are: Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald, Darlie Routier, Michael Peterson and Scott Peterson -- who is almost certain to be given a new trial.

One down, four to go.

Jules
11-12-2005, 08:02 PM
Wudge, I may regret asking this, but why do you feel MacDonald, Routier, Peterson and Peterson deserve new trials?

MacDonald, who I believe is guilty, is probably the one I would most agree with you on - only because I believe the Army screwed up LOTS of stuff.

Routier - GUILTY

M. Peterson - don't know anything about this case.

S. Peterson - why on earth do you think he is entitled to a new trial?

deanws
11-13-2005, 12:06 AM
Wudge, I may regret asking this, but why do you feel MacDonald, Routier, Peterson and Peterson deserve new trials?

MacDonald, who I believe is guilty, is probably the one I would most agree with you on - only because I believe the Army screwed up LOTS of stuff.

Routier - GUILTY

M. Peterson - don't know anything about this case.

S. Peterson - why on earth do you think he is entitled to a new trial?MP is way guilty. In fact, he killed TWO people. He got away with the first, so he tried the same method the second time. Killed both women, pushing them down the stairs. The last lady(wife) he hit over the head with a blow poke.

NaNaRosebud
11-13-2005, 08:46 AM
I guess I'm just a skeptic, but I think Andrea knew what she was doing. She knew she was killing her children and no matter what excuse she comes up with she should be in prison.


Her defense is insanity. Well, isn't it insanity to kill anyone at anytime? I think that the moment that someone pulls the trigger or puts poison in someone's food is an insane act. Anyone who kills someone else other than self defense is insane at the moment they do the deed.

Her religious and depression defense could be just a made up story that her lawyer used to get her off. Lawyers twist facts and get people to testify to things that they want them to testify to inorder to do anything to win the case.

She's in a prison hospital now. Let her stay there. She doesn't need another trial. She needs to pay for what she did to her kids.

How do we know that she just wanted to get away from the responsibilty of taking care of her kids and so she decided to kill them? This "she did it to save them" is just an excuse in my opinion. She was a Christian. She knew the 10 Commandments. Thou shalt not kill is a biggie!

Depressed or not, she knew she was killing them!

ravenmad
11-13-2005, 09:26 AM
I guess I'm just a skeptic, but I think Andrea knew what she was doing. She knew she was killing her children and no matter what excuse she comes up with she should be in prison.


Her defense is insanity. Well, isn't it insanity to kill anyone at anytime? I think that the moment that someone pulls the trigger or puts poison in someone's food is an insane act. Anyone who kills someone else other than self defense is insane at the moment they do the deed.

Her religious and depression defense could be just a made up story that her lawyer used to get her off. Lawyers twist facts and get people to testify to things that they want them to testify to inorder to do anything to win the case.

She's in a prison hospital now. Let her stay there. She doesn't need another trial. She needs to pay for what she did to her kids.

How do we know that she just wanted to get away from the responsibility of taking care of her kids and so she decided to kill them? This "she did it to save them" is just an excuse in my opinion. She was a Christian. She knew the 10 Commandments. Thou shalt not kill is a biggie!

Depressed or not, she knew she was killing them!


Nanarosebud,
I think I understand what you are saying here, and I agree that she needs to be held accountable, however, having said that, I believe she is mentally ill. I had a friend that was mentally ill, she "functioned" in life to a degree, she drove, kept her bills paid things like that. But, one day I went to her house and she had boarded all her windows shut! When asked why she told me that she was keeping the IRS from spying on her. I know this is not the same thing, but my point is that mental illness is a wicked thing. I had NO CLUE that my friend was ill until that day. It went down hill fast. She ended up in a mental institution for over six months, had electric shock treatments and will never ever be "normal" again. I think AY went over the deep end, she heard the same voices my friend hears and they believe them! What AY did was the most horrid of horrid acts. But I don't think she had the ability to prevent herself from those acts. I know my friend could not. I hope this helps in understanding how mental illness affects ones judgment and actions. I am not excusing AY she needs to be in a mental ward for the rest of her life. Because if she ever realizes what she has done she will commit suicide.
raven

Jeana (DP)
11-13-2005, 11:12 AM
I guess I'm just a skeptic, but I think Andrea knew what she was doing. She knew she was killing her children and no matter what excuse she comes up with she should be in prison.


Her defense is insanity. Well, isn't it insanity to kill anyone at anytime? I think that the moment that someone pulls the trigger or puts poison in someone's food is an insane act. Anyone who kills someone else other than self defense is insane at the moment they do the deed.


Yes, she did know - she's said that. And no, it isn't insanity to kill anyone at anytime. There's greed, jealousy, passion and just plain evil. Mental illness can strike at anyone's family at any time. I would hope those who are too angry at the crime of Andrea to see that she truly was mentally ill and needs hospitalization are never forced to see things from her side.

NaNaRosebud
11-13-2005, 11:36 AM
I think I get what you are trying to say Jeana. I have had depression in my family. If that person decided to kill someone because he/she was depressed, that does not give them the excuse to kill, imo.


I think that people can be insane with greed, insane with jealousy, insane with passion, insane with grief, or insane with any human emotion there is. Just because someone is overcome with that emotion/feeling, doesn't give them a pass to kill someone. As you can probably tell, I'm not big on the "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense.

Anyone who decides to kill someone, especially one who plans the event, is insane. AY clearly planned when and how to kill her children. She even had a "run through/rehersal" once, IIRC.

At the point/split second that someone kills someone, they are insane, because sane people don't kill other people unless they are threatened with being killed themselves.

Should we give the terrorist the insanity by religion defense? How about a child killer who rapes and kills a precious child? Should they be given an insanity defense because someone clearly has to be insane to be that evil.

IF AY is put into a mental hospital and then funds run out for that hospital, will she be released onto society so that she can be insane once more and do harm to people?

She killed her kids. She knew what she was doing at the time. She planned it. She practiced it. She called the cops after.

deanws
11-13-2005, 12:43 PM
I think I get what you are trying to say Jeana. I have had depression in my family. If that person decided to kill someone because he/she was depressed, that does not give them the excuse to kill, imo.


I think that people can be insane with greed, insane with jealousy, insane with passion, insane with grief, or insane with any human emotion there is. Just because someone is overcome with that emotion/feeling, doesn't give them a pass to kill someone. As you can probably tell, I'm not big on the "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense.

Anyone who decides to kill someone, especially one who plans the event, is insane. AY clearly planned when and how to kill her children. She even had a "run through/rehersal" once, IIRC.

At the point/split second that someone kills someone, they are insane, because sane people don't kill other people unless they are threatened with being killed themselves.

Should we give the terrorist the insanity by religion defense? How about a child killer who rapes and kills a precious child? Should they be given an insanity defense because someone clearly has to be insane to be that evil.

IF AY is put into a mental hospital and then funds run out for that hospital, will she be released onto society so that she can be insane once more and do harm to people?

She killed her kids. She knew what she was doing at the time. She planned it. She practiced it. She called the cops after.It isn't that simple Rose. Yes, she knew she was killing the children. Yes, she did plan it. Yes, she did wait until no one was around. In the first trial she was deemed to be "sane" because of those reasons. However, I think we all agree that Andrea is ANYTHING but SANE! The reason she killed the children was because the "cult" guy that was giving her religious instruction said it was her responsibility to make sure her kids were all going to heaven. She, in her insane mental state, believed that she was a horrible mother and was dooming her children to hell because she couldn't make them holy. Thus, she thought she had to end their lives before the age of accountability approached. In her sick mind, she was saving their souls. So very sad. :( If she is put into a mental hospital the funds won't run out. She will be placed on the welfare system in Texas for the mentally ill. She will probably spend the rest of her life in the "system". Unless her family has changed their minds, this is what they want. Her attorney, as well as her family have NEVER asked for her release into the general population. They are very well aware of her need to be institutionalized.

Jeana (DP)
11-13-2005, 12:56 PM
I think I get what you are trying to say Jeana. I have had depression in my family. If that person decided to kill someone because he/she was depressed, that does not give them the excuse to kill, imo.


I think that people can be insane with greed, insane with jealousy, insane with passion, insane with grief, or insane with any human emotion there is. Just because someone is overcome with that emotion/feeling, doesn't give them a pass to kill someone. As you can probably tell, I'm not big on the "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense.

Anyone who decides to kill someone, especially one who plans the event, is insane. AY clearly planned when and how to kill her children. She even had a "run through/rehersal" once, IIRC.

At the point/split second that someone kills someone, they are insane, because sane people don't kill other people unless they are threatened with being killed themselves.

Should we give the terrorist the insanity by religion defense? How about a child killer who rapes and kills a precious child? Should they be given an insanity defense because someone clearly has to be insane to be that evil.

IF AY is put into a mental hospital and then funds run out for that hospital, will she be released onto society so that she can be insane once more and do harm to people?

She killed her kids. She knew what she was doing at the time. She planned it. She practiced it. She called the cops after.


There's a BIG difference between an "excuse" and an explanation. Everyone around Andrea knew that she was a danger to herself and to those kids. She was screaming out for help like no one I'd ever heard of. She was let down by her family and by her doctors and so were those children. The brain is a very complex thing. Too complex for me to understand certainly. I'm not soft on criminals and this is the FIRST person that I've EVER in my entire life said deserved to be not guilty by reason of insanity. Does that mean she gets a free pass? Hell no. But she needs to be in a hospital for the rest of her lift NOT a prison. THAT, darlin, should be the only difference in her life sentence, in my opinion.

shopper
11-13-2005, 02:54 PM
I think I get what you are trying to say Jeana. I have had depression in my family. If that person decided to kill someone because he/she was depressed, that does not give them the excuse to kill, imo.


I think that people can be insane with greed, insane with jealousy, insane with passion, insane with grief, or insane with any human emotion there is. Just because someone is overcome with that emotion/feeling, doesn't give them a pass to kill someone. As you can probably tell, I'm not big on the "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense.

Anyone who decides to kill someone, especially one who plans the event, is insane. AY clearly planned when and how to kill her children. She even had a "run through/rehersal" once, IIRC.

At the point/split second that someone kills someone, they are insane, because sane people don't kill other people unless they are threatened with being killed themselves.

Should we give the terrorist the insanity by religion defense? How about a child killer who rapes and kills a precious child? Should they be given an insanity defense because someone clearly has to be insane to be that evil.

IF AY is put into a mental hospital and then funds run out for that hospital, will she be released onto society so that she can be insane once more and do harm to people?

She killed her kids. She knew what she was doing at the time. She planned it. She practiced it. She called the cops after.


If Andrea Yates doesn't qualify for the insanity defense then IMO, it should be done away with.

There was years of documented PROOF of her mental illness. Rusty had been told that having more children would only make it worse.

Everyone knows she killed them and how she carried it out. A person can be mentally ill and still function at some level. No one here is saying to give her a free pass, let her out on the streets to start life over. She's as sick as a person ravaged with cancer and needs the chance to become as healthy as possible.

JMO

shopper
11-13-2005, 02:56 PM
There's a BIG difference between an "excuse" and an explanation. Everyone around Andrea knew that she was a danger to herself and to those kids. She was screaming out for help like no one I'd ever heard of. She was let down by her family and by her doctors and so were those children. The brain is a very complex thing. Too complex for me to understand certainly. I'm not soft on criminals and this is the FIRST person that I've EVER in my entire life said deserved to be not guilty by reason of insanity. Does that mean she gets a free pass? Hell no. But she needs to be in a hospital for the rest of her lift NOT a prison. THAT, darlin, should be the only difference in her life sentence, in my opinion.


:clap: You said it Jeanna, ITA.

Gabby
11-13-2005, 05:22 PM
There's a BIG difference between an "excuse" and an explanation. Everyone around Andrea knew that she was a danger to herself and to those kids. She was screaming out for help like no one I'd ever heard of. She was let down by her family and by her doctors and so were those children. The brain is a very complex thing. Too complex for me to understand certainly. I'm not soft on criminals and this is the FIRST person that I've EVER in my entire life said deserved to be not guilty by reason of insanity. Does that mean she gets a free pass? Hell no. But she needs to be in a hospital for the rest of her lift NOT a prison. THAT, darlin, should be the only difference in her life sentence, in my opinion.



Well said Jeana.... if ever there was a person insane, it is/was Andrea Yates. One look at her when all this occured would tell you all was not 'right ' with her.

Jean
12-19-2005, 08:36 PM
Yates will move to state mental hospital soon 12/19/05

Snips...

Yates' two murder convictions were overturned by an appeals court earlier this year because of false expert testimony at her 2002 trial.

Prosecutor Joe Owmby said today that Yates will be moved to the Rusk State Hospital, less than a half-mile away from the Skyview prison, a psychiatric unit where she's been jailed for nearly three years.

Yates' attorney, George Parnham, who has worked for months to get Yates into a state mental hospital, said he visited Yates twice last week to help prepare her for the move. While he wouldn't provide details on those discussions, Parnham said Yates is scared about the transition.

More at link--http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3535655.html

kgeaux
12-19-2005, 09:18 PM
Idaho Mom - During the first trial of Andrea Yates, I felt the same as you...that she deserved prison for what she did. She committed the most reprehensible crime.

After my anger subsided, and I thought it over and read various things about Andrea and her past, I changed my mind.

I don't want her ever to live in a free society again, but I think if anyone fits into the "insanity defense", it is Andrea Yates. If she isn't insane, I don't know who is.

IMO

I don't ever waNT her to live freely again, either. I have never been able to get past the fact that she knew enough that what she did was wrong to call 911. Knowledge of guilt=not criminally insane, legally. She's insane, just not CRIMINALLY insane, IMO.

I have a dear friend who was diagnoised as bi-polar, thankfully she has a loving spouse who made sure she and her children were safe. She begged her husband not to leave her alone with the children because she was afraid that she might "use the knives" on them. He took her seriously and she was never alone with the children. She is stable today, on her meds and doing well, thanks to a husband who loved her, believed her and took care of her. That said, I must say, I believe Randy was MORE guilty than Andrea. I wish he would have been held accountable.

cinsbythesea
01-09-2006, 02:38 PM
I sincerely hope that as a result of the new trial she is sent to a hospital, where she belongs.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181085,00.html

Only4Justice
01-09-2006, 02:38 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/09/andrea.yeates.ap/index.html

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Andrea Yates pleaded innocent by reason of insanity in the drowning deaths of her children Monday as she made her first court appearance since her 2002 capital murder convictions were overturned.

Go and look at the photo of her. She looks insane.

bakerprune64
01-09-2006, 02:47 PM
I sincerely hope that as a result of the new trial she is sent to a hospital, where she belongs.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181085,00.html
And never be let out of said hospital.

cinsbythesea
01-09-2006, 02:50 PM
And never be let out of said hospital.

That's a given. I think though she'd be more of a danger to herself than anyone else so it wouldn't the citizens of Texas that would have to fear her.

Jean
01-09-2006, 02:53 PM
She has really aged a lot since her trial. (Picture from CNN link posted by OnlyForJustice.) I can't even explain how I feel about what Andrea did to her children, but I do feel she was, and probably still is, ill. I don't think she should be in prison, but I do think she should be in a mental hospital, probably for as long as she lives.

I think Rusty should be locked up in prison. I feel he is probably more responsible for what happened to the children than Andrea is. She is ill, he is an A$$. IMO

kato
01-09-2006, 03:03 PM
Well, at least it looks as if she has gained some weight. She had gotten mighty scrawny.

j2mirish
01-09-2006, 03:12 PM
She has really aged a lot since her trial. (Picture from CNN link posted by OnlyForJustice.) I can't even explain how I feel about what Andrea did to her children, but I do feel she was, and probably still is, ill. I don't think she should be in prison, but I do think she should be in a mental hospital, probably for as long as she lives.

I think Rusty should be locked up in prison. I feel he is probably more responsible for what happened to the children than Andrea is. She is ill, he is an A$$. IMO
I have thought this since the day it happened :banghead:

Jules
01-09-2006, 03:16 PM
I just started reading a book about her and the crimes, etc. The first part of the book discusses the drownings and that had me in tears. How awful for those poor kids - especially Noah, the last one to die.

The part I'm on now is discussing her mental illness. This is one sick chick. She has had serious illness since shortly after her 4th child was born - all documented.

I truly believe she was and is a very sick person. I don't believe she should be in jail - but in a mental hospital - for the rest of her life. She responded well to the medication - when she took it - and that needs to be continuously monitored to keep her well.

This case just breaks my heart. I am angry at her louse of an ex-husband for leaving her alone with the kids after her telling him that she had thoughts of hurting them. And, I'm angry with her doctor who took her off her medication shortly before the murders because after spending 5 minutes with her and deciding she was doing fine.

I didn't follow this case too much when it happened as it was very difficult for me. But, reading about now, I wonder (if anyone can answer) just how much they questioned her treating doctor? He took her off her medication and that was to be done VERY gradually - over several weeks time. He told her to stop it all at once. I'm just getting to this part in the book and it fascinates me. I wonder if she had gradually discontinued those drugs if it would have made a difference in her poor childrens lives.

Jules
01-09-2006, 06:38 PM
I'm curious if Rusty was there today. I know they're divorced, but no mention of him in any articles. Anyone know?

KatherineQ
01-10-2006, 12:17 AM
This is the most awful story. Awful for every single person involved, especially those little kids. Everyone in Andrea's family dumped on her, too, not just Rusty, she was also caring for an elderly adult with Alzheimers despite her obvious disability.

In a very small way I feel sorry for Rusty too, although he seems very shallow and immature. All he wanted was what a lot of men want - a stay at home wife, who will love and care for his kids while he works and brings home good money.

And now all his kids are drowned.

I don't think he's evil, he was just unprepared in life to deal with a wife who became insane while there were babies in the house.

LinasK
01-10-2006, 04:30 AM
HOUSTON, Jan. 9, 2006(AP) Andrea Yates pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity Monday in the drowning deaths of her children. It was Yates' first court appearance since her 2002 capital murder convictions were overturned (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/07/national/main665338.shtml).

State District Judge Belinda Hill accepted the plea and set a March 20 trial date.

Yates, who wore an oversized orange jail jumpsuit, appeared to have gained weight since her last appearance before Hill when the judge sentenced Yates to life in prison.
Prosecutors and Yates' attorney, George Parnham, said they are still negotiating a plea deal, but both sides said they've agreed not to discuss them publicly and are preparing for a retrial.

"We don't have an agreement and until there is some agreement, there is no agreement," Prosecutor Joe Owmby said Monday outside the Harris County courthouse.

Owmby noted last week that Yates would have to plead guilty to prompt discussions of how long or where should we be confined. Parnham wants Yates to be housed in a mental hospital instead of prison.

Parnham said, however, that he won't consider any scenario under which Yates must plead guilty in order to get the mental health care she desires.

"There will be no guilty plea," he said. "There are other avenues that can be explored, but that goes into the type of negotiations ... I don't want to break my bond with prosecutors about talking about plea discussions."

Parnham says Yates' mental health care is nonnegotiable.
Yates, 41, may remain in the custody of the Harris County Sheriff's Department until she is retried. She is currently in the Harris County Jail, where mental health experts keep a close watch over her, Parnham said.

Parnham, however, said he would try this week to get a bond set for Yates that would allow her to be housed at the Rusk State Hospital until her trial. Until last week, Yates had been imprisoned at East Texas' Skyview Prison Unit, a psychiatric prison.

An earlier attempt to get Yates transferred to the state hospital failed.

"That is a secure mental health facility," Parnham said. "She already has a doctor assigned to her at Rusk. The administrator has already approved Andrea's acceptance into that mental health facility. Everyone acknowledges that that is where Andrea can receive the best mental health care this state can offer."
To prove insanity in Texas, a defendant must prove she suffered from a severe mental disease or defect and did not know her actions were wrong.

During Yates' original trial (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/06/national/main665171.shtml), psychiatrists testified she suffered from schizophrenia and postpartum depression, but defense and prosecution expert witnesses disagreed over the severity of Yates' illness and whether it prevented her from knowing that drowning the children was wrong.
more at link:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/09/national/main1191592.shtml

kato
01-10-2006, 09:03 AM
This is the most awful story. Awful for every single person involved, especially those little kids. Everyone in Andrea's family dumped on her, too, not just Rusty, she was also caring for an elderly adult with Alzheimers despite her obvious disability.

In a very small way I feel sorry for Rusty too, although he seems very shallow and immature. All he wanted was what a lot of men want - a stay at home wife, who will love and care for his kids while he works and brings home good money.

And now all his kids are drowned.

I don't think he's evil, he was just unprepared in life to deal with a wife who became insane while there were babies in the house.

She had also been helping with her father before he died. She took his death very hard.

Details
01-10-2006, 03:00 PM
If Yates wasn't legally insane - no one ever is. Rusty and the stupid Doctor bear the real responsibility - they knew she was insane, and left her as the responsible and only adult around the children! Took her off drugs cold turkey when any doctor would know that this would be bad! Rusty was there day in day out, and didn't even care enough to not get Andrea pregnant again, when he knew it would push her further over the edge!

I really think he kinda wanted her to go over the edge, so he could find another wife who he could get more use out of. I'm sure he never thought what would happen, nor planned for that to happen, but he was so callous, so much doing every last thing possible to drive Andrea further over the edge, even when being told exactly what would happen, that it doesn't seem accidental to me.

KatherineQ
01-10-2006, 11:20 PM
Details - I just don't get the impression that he knew she was insane. I think he was like Darren (both Darrens) of Bewitched, or other male fictional characters of the late 50's. He wanted to earn a good living, and come home to a wife and a hot meal and healthy children at night.

He's about the most shallow man I've ever seen. Listening to him, there's clearly something wrong with him. He doesn't get it.

He was like, aligning the coffins, and saying some paragraph about each child, he doesn't get it at all. He's about a quarter inch deep.

But I don't think he's to blame, or he knew she was insane, or he can be held responsible. He's just a very very shallow man, and she went insane. Suddenly all his children were dead while he was at work.

concernedperson
01-10-2006, 11:43 PM
I just can't say what I want to about him.Something is so sleazy. I know she killed her babies. I wish life was one,two,three.

Janet'sPlanet
01-19-2006, 10:28 AM
For those tempted to blame "the husband" remember clearly that in our society we make distinctions between adults and children. Adults are responsible for their children. Adults are to rear their children. Other adults are not responsible to rear other adults or do for them what is their job.

Now you can take the position that women are to be seen as childlike or something in between a child and adult and if you take that position then of course the man in her life, i.e. husband, would have been responsible to some extent for decisions that she made. But as a grown woman she decided to get into the relationship and marriage on her own.

This is why she and she alone must face the consequences for what she did. To me she is simply a cold blooded murderer. No doubt there are many contributors to why she ultimately chose to murder. But this is often the case for many murderers. You can look back and see where upbringing, failed relationships, isolation, personal immaturity all contributed. However, there are far far too many cases where adults have these same contributors and because they have exercised their personal volition and chose to make constructive decisions for themselves and not rely upon and demand from others a way or life or direction, they DIDN'T MURDER or commit crimes....all the while having the same circumstances as Andrea Yates and other murderers.

If this woman would have MOLESTED HER CHILDREN you would be screaming for her head and wouldn't care what her problems were. But she commits and even WORSE CRIME...she takes their LIVES, she murders them and many people want to excuse it with insanity.

That is insanity...not Andrea Yates.

Jeana (DP)
01-19-2006, 10:30 AM
Insanity isn't an "excuse." Its a reason. There's a difference.

Janet'sPlanet
01-19-2006, 10:47 AM
I think Yates is going to be found guilty again. In fact, I think the Prosecution is going to do an even better job. The problem with Yates at the trial will be too many multiples and she will be back to prison where women that murder their children belong...along with Susan Smith and so on.

SewingDeb
01-19-2006, 11:08 AM
For those tempted to blame "the husband" remember clearly that in our society we make distinctions between adults and children. Adults are responsible for their children. Adults are to rear their children. Other adults are not responsible to rear other adults or do for them what is their job.

Now you can take the position that women are to be seen as childlike or something in between a child and adult and if you take that position then of course the man in her life, i.e. husband, would have been responsible to some extent for decisions that she made. But as a grown woman she decided to get into the relationship and marriage on her own.

This is why she and she alone must face the consequences for what she did. To me she is simply a cold blooded murderer. No doubt there are many contributors to why she ultimately chose to murder. But this is often the case for many murderers. You can look back and see where upbringing, failed relationships, isolation, personal immaturity all contributed. However, there are far far too many cases where adults have these same contributors and because they have exercised their personal volition and chose to make constructive decisions for themselves and not rely upon and demand from others a way or life or direction, they DIDN'T MURDER or commit crimes....all the while having the same circumstances as Andrea Yates and other murderers.

If this woman would have MOLESTED HER CHILDREN you would be screaming for her head and wouldn't care what her problems were. But she commits and even WORSE CRIME...she takes their LIVES, she murders them and many people want to excuse it with insanity.

That is insanity...not Andrea Yates.

Would you expect that when a husband becomes mentally ill and is having thoughts of hurting his children that the wife simply go off to work and leave him with a house full of children? You wouldn't think she should take some responsibility if he kills them?

close_enough
01-19-2006, 11:52 AM
I think Yates is going to be found guilty again. In fact, I think the Prosecution is going to do an even better job. The problem with Yates at the trial will be too many multiples and she will be back to prison where women that murder their children belong...along with Susan Smith and so on.

well, i hope she's found not guilty, but guilty by reason of insanity....if anyone should get this, it should be her, imo....the other woman, can't think of her name, but i think it was Deana, in Texas ??....she was found "insane", but she admitted to hiding the rock she was using on her baby, under the bed, when her husband walked in on her that night....she knew enough to quickly stop pressing the rock on her baby, & hide it under the baby bed..... :furious:

Janet'sPlanet
01-19-2006, 12:45 PM
Would you expect that when a husband becomes mentally ill and is having thoughts of hurting his children that the wife simply go off to work and leave him with a house full of children? You wouldn't think she should take some responsibility if he kills them?
First of all I make a distinction between adults and children. Children are dependent on a adults and parents are responsible for telling children what decisions to make and eventually teaching them how to make them and finally watching them make their own.

Andrea was not the child of her husband. She was a grown woman who was given the ability to make choices. Her life is one of choices. Pointing the finger at someone else because you didn't get the help you needed is no excuse. She knew what she had done was wrong and immediately called the police. Apparently she knew who to call when she needed arrested and charged.

But let's look at what Rusty Yates did and what he had to say. Here is a quote from not only Rusty Yates but Dr. Saeed who Rusty and Andrea went to after a seemingly psycyhotic attempt:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,218445,00.html

"Rusty told jurors that he and Andrea went to the Devereux-Texas Treatment Network, where Mohammed Saeed became Andrea's psychiatrist. Rusty testified that he never knew that Andrea had visions and voices; he said he never knew she had considered killing the children. Neither did Dr. Saeed"

And a second quote:

"After only slight improvement, Andrea was released from Devereux. A month later, she had another episode. Rusty took her back to Devereux. Again, she was released. Dr. Saeed reluctantly prescribed Haldol, the same drug that worked in a drug cocktail for her in 1999. But after a few weeks, he took her off the drug, citing his concerns about side effects. (For more on Saeed's response, see our previous examination of the Yates trial (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,195267,00.html).) Though Andrea's condition seemed to be worsening two days before the drownings, when her husband drove her to Saeed's office, Rusty testified, the doctor refused to try Haldol longer or return her to the hospital. Rusty was frustrated, he told the jury, and he didn't know what else to do."

Rusty Yates was not and is not a mental health professional but took her to a mental health professional Rusty Yates is not a psychic nor is the mental health professional. If anyone could have predicted or should have intervened based on training and experience related to mental health issues and a mother being around her children it would have been the doctor. But Rusty clearly testified he knew of no ideations of her murdering her children.

Now Andrea herself was her high school class valedictorian and graduated with a Nursing degree from the University of Texas Health Science Center. She was no dummy by a long shot. A very intelligent person by all standards.

Andrea didn't met her husband until she was 25, long into adulthood and far removed from teenaged innocence and naivity (unless you are interested in prescribing for Andrea a lifelong pass or irresponsibility and naivity simply because it suits your desired view of her which doesn't work in the adult world).

As an adult she dated Rusty for 3 years. At close to age 30 they got married. Okay so we have a woman, grown adult, with a nursing degree and able to take care of herself, cope with life, and make adult decisions. So she decides with her husband Rusty to have a baby, Noah.

Well after a couple of more babies of which no one can find any records of her being forced against her will they still lived in a 350 sq. ft. trailer. It appears then she sank into depression.

During this time ANDREA and her husband BOTH chose to continue corresponding with: http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/5-1Michael-Woroniecki.jpgMichael Woroniecki

He was and is an extremist. Mind you, this is Andrea who is, with her husband, both making the choice to correspond with this man who preached that women had some inherit evil and should be constantly submissive to their husbands. Now many many homes exist where a man attempts to introduce this type of NONSENSE and women of the same or lesser stature of Andrea put their foot down and make it clear that she isn't going to tolerate this nonsense and if he wants to believe it he can but she isn't having any part of it. But Andrea made the choice to continue to expose herself to this. She chose. There is no record of her husband forcing her or threatening her.
Remember, Andrea isn't some sister-brother offspring reared without an education or sophistication. She has a degree from a major university and was her High School valedictorian.

In 1999 here is an account of the first significant depressive episode:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/6.html

"In 1999, Andrea called Rusty at work and told him she needed help. When he arrived home, he found her shaking and chewing her fingers, so he took her and the children to his parents' home, where she said she felt better. But then she tried to kill herself with a drug overdose from her father's medication, and with Andrea's mother's help, Rusty finally got her into treatment. Later she said she had just wanted to "sleep forever." She was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder."

Like in the end, here at the beginning Rusty helped with getting treatment.

Following this her husband AGAIN helped her:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/6.html
"The ailing mother was discharged and another psychiatrist switched her to Zyprexa, an antipsychotic drug for bipolar disorders and schizophrenia. Andrea flushed the pills down the toilet. Then she got worse.

She told her psychiatrist that she was hearing voices and seeing visions again about getting a knife. She began to scratch at herself, leaving sores on her legs. Then Rusty found her in the bathroom one day pressing a knife to her throat. He took it away and got her hospitalized. "

They were recommended NOT to have a fifth child because of the postpartum depression that might happen. They BOTH decided to have one. In fact, Rusty's mother came to help as well.

Well, RUSTY continued to try and finds ways to get Andrea treatment and of course followed up with all the medications prescribed by doctors.

BUT to directly answer your question, as you can see Rusty testified as did Dr. Saeed that he never knew of her stating she had ideations or thoughts of hurting her children. Not only Rusty but the doctor to which her brought her did not either. Rusty cannot be a mind reader nor a psychic and the records demonstrates that he acted many many times on her behalf to get her mental health treatment. She, ANDREA YATES, often refused to take medication. Often she would trade stories and change stories with therapists.

Personally I don't doubt that Andrea Yates needs mental counselling and treatment. But I do make her accountable for her numerous decisions throughout life as a grown adult to ignore bad information, to foster and nuture a lifestyle that deliberately made her others dependent and ultimately conditioned to blame outside sources for her deliberate murders of her children.

Jeana (DP)
01-19-2006, 06:15 PM
Andrea's mental illness wasn't from birth. It was developed over the years. No one is immune from getting a mental illness at some point in their lives. I hope it never affects you or your family members.

Janet'sPlanet
01-19-2006, 06:28 PM
Andrea's mental illness wasn't from birth. It was developed over the years. No one is immune from getting a mental illness at some point in their lives. I hope it never affects you or your family members.No one is immuned from it but my lengthy post above goes into great detail about her choices and her own personal neglect. Repeatedly she lays the blame at someone else's feet. This is the personality of a blamer. Yes, criminals come in all shapes and sizes, moms, dads, young and old. I am certainly sorry she murdered her children but her history demonstrates to me a highly and deliberately dependent personality that has sluffed off on others what was hers to do and be and decide.

Over simplifying it and just pleading insane doesn't work for me. If that is the case then most murderers and violent offenders should walk free after mental health treatment. Why? Because the nature of many murders is so henious and sick that it must be from a sick mind.

BUT LET me remind you that JOHN LIST murdered JUST LIKE this woman, Andrea Yates. He murdered so his kids would not go to hell. What did he do? He left and started another life. No, these are just irresponsible types that won't face up to their job and the life they chose and find the easy way out...MURDER. My comment to you is that I hope you NEVER have to deal with a LOVED ONE being murdered, never mind two or more or that it never affects you or your loved ones.

Jeana (DP)
01-19-2006, 06:44 PM
No one is immuned from it but my lengthy post above goes into great detail about her choices and her own personal neglect. Repeatedly she lays the blame at someone else's feet. This is the personality of a blamer. Yes, criminals come in all shapes and sizes, moms, dads, young and old. I am certainly sorry she murdered her children but her history demonstrates to me a highly and deliberately dependent personality that has sluffed off on others what was hers to do and be and decide.

Over simplifying it and just pleading insane doesn't work for me. If that is the case then most murderers and violent offenders should walk free after mental health treatment. Why? Because the nature of many murders is so henious and sick that it must be from a sick mind.

BUT LET me remind you that JOHN LIST murdered JUST LIKE this woman, Andrea Yates. He murdered so his kids would not go to hell. What did he do? He left and started another life. No, these are just irresponsible types that won't face up to their job and the life they chose and find the easy way out...MURDER. My comment to you is that I hope you NEVER have to deal with a LOVED ONE being murdered, never mind two or more or that it never affects you or your loved ones.

When one's mind isn't working, they can't make decisions nor can they be held accountable. I don't care if they're 18 or 48. Makes no difference. It can't get much more simple than that.

List, if I recall correctly, had NO history of mental illness, so comparing the two makes no sense.

My little sister was missing for 11 years before her remains were found, so I've already had to deal with a LOVED ONE being murdered. Again, has nothing to do with Andrea's case.

Janet'sPlanet
01-19-2006, 07:16 PM
When one's mind isn't working, they can't make decisions nor can they be held accountable. I don't care if they're 18 or 48. Makes no difference. It can't get much more simple than that.

List, if I recall correctly, had NO history of mental illness, so comparing the two makes no sense.

My little sister was missing for 11 years before her remains were found, so I've already had to deal with a LOVED ONE being murdered. Again, has nothing to do with Andrea's case.Actually he did have a history of some mental issues. But more importantly is the fact that simply because someone doesn't have an official DIAGNOSIS doesn't mean they did not have mental health issues. Back in the 60s it was rare for the average citizen to see a shrink for issues like that. Nevertheless I doubt we will agree on the case.

I think she is a murderer and very manipulative. Yes she needs counseling but no, my lengthy posts explains quite clearly why I believe she was not and is not insane and why I hope she is found guilty again.

michelle
01-19-2006, 07:19 PM
No one is immuned from it but my lengthy post above goes into great detail about her choices and her own personal neglect. Repeatedly she lays the blame at someone else's feet. This is the personality of a blamer. Yes, criminals come in all shapes and sizes, moms, dads, young and old. I am certainly sorry she murdered her children but her history demonstrates to me a highly and deliberately dependent personality that has sluffed off on others what was hers to do and be and decide.

Over simplifying it and just pleading insane doesn't work for me. If that is the case then most murderers and violent offenders should walk free after mental health treatment. Why? Because the nature of many murders is so henious and sick that it must be from a sick mind.

BUT LET me remind you that JOHN LIST murdered JUST LIKE this woman, Andrea Yates. He murdered so his kids would not go to hell. What did he do? He left and started another life. No, these are just irresponsible types that won't face up to their job and the life they chose and find the easy way out...MURDER. My comment to you is that I hope you NEVER have to deal with a LOVED ONE being murdered, never mind two or more or that it never affects you or your loved ones. john list was something else, its a good thing they caught him, he was living the life somewhere else and happy as a pig in mud...

Details
01-19-2006, 07:43 PM
To keep saying that the "BOTH" made these decisions is not accurate. Rusty made the decision as a competent adult. Andrea 'made' the decision as an insane person - her decisions are not rational, not sane choices. To expect an insane person to be responsible for their choices, and just let them make them is IMHO criminal negligence.

Somehow that's obvious when the insanity takes a self destructive bent (for example, no one would say that both she and Rusty made the choice to cut her throat if she asked for the knife to cut her own throat, and Rusty gave it to her and watched - he'd be considered obviously responsible in that case - instead he took away the knife). But when it's an other-destructive line, we wish to believe the insane person was responsible, that they somehow could have controlled themselves - or more, that if it were us who had the mental illness, that we would have been able to control ourselves!

It's too scary to think of the alternative - that something can go wrong with your mind, and that something can turn you into a monster who thinks it's a reasonable responsible decision to kill your children.

She clearly knew the law would not agree, but she also thought it was the right and only thing to do for the children - a line of reasoning like a mother who kills a pedophile - they know it's against the law, but they also believe it's right and the only way to protect their children.

This isn't about a submissive woman, or the old-fashioned concepts that the man is the head of the household - the same condemnation would hold if a woman left a clearly insane husband in charge of their children (I suspect it would be greater - we still want to believe the woman is responsible for the children, still castigate a neglectful mother more than the completely absent father).

concernedperson
01-19-2006, 08:13 PM
I just think that Rusty used her culpability to his advantage. I would never put him up as the husband of the year.

Janet'sPlanet
01-19-2006, 08:28 PM
To keep saying that the "BOTH" made these decisions is not accurate. Rusty made the decision as a competent adult. Andrea 'made' the decision as an insane person - her decisions are not rational, not sane choices. To expect an insane person to be responsible for their choices, and just let them make them is IMHO criminal negligence.

Somehow that's obvious when the insanity takes a self destructive bent (for example, no one would say that both she and Rusty made the choice to cut her throat if she asked for the knife to cut her own throat, and Rusty gave it to her and watched - he'd be considered obviously responsible in that case - instead he took away the knife). But when it's an other-destructive line, we wish to believe the insane person was responsible, that they somehow could have controlled themselves - or more, that if it were us who had the mental illness, that we would have been able to control ourselves!

It's too scary to think of the alternative - that something can go wrong with your mind, and that something can turn you into a monster who thinks it's a reasonable responsible decision to kill your children.

She clearly knew the law would not agree, but she also thought it was the right and only thing to do for the children - a line of reasoning like a mother who kills a pedophile - they know it's against the law, but they also believe it's right and the only way to protect their children.

This isn't about a submissive woman, or the old-fashioned concepts that the man is the head of the household - the same condemnation would hold if a woman left a clearly insane husband in charge of their children (I suspect it would be greater - we still want to believe the woman is responsible for the children, still castigate a neglectful mother more than the completely absent father).Let's see...she is sane enough to feed herself, sane enough to call the cops after she commits a crime, sane enough to dress herself, sane enough to know HOW to murder and commit it, sane enough to be able to speak in detail about her mental struggles, sane enough to drive a car, sane enough to know not to commit other crimes. Nah...

But what is so sad....so so very sad is that you compare her murdering her children to her murdering a pedophile. No, sorry. SHE is the one that is worse than a PEDOPHILE. She MURDERED. At least most pedophiles let their victims live but this woman...NOT SHE murdered them. Were the children guilty of anything? Nadda..just being children. But comparing her children being murdered to someone murdering a PEDOPHILE? LOL that takes the cake.

Details
01-19-2006, 08:36 PM
Let's see...she is sane enough to feed herself, sane enough to call the cops after she commits a crime, sane enough to dress herself, sane enough to know HOW to murder and commit it, sane enough to be able to speak in detail about her mental struggles, sane enough to drive a car, sane enough to know not to commit other crimes. Nah...

But what is so sad....so so very sad is that you compare her murdering her children to her murdering a pedophile. No, sorry. SHE is the one that is worse than a PEDOPHILE. She MURDERED. At least most pedophiles let their victims live but this woman...NOT SHE murdered them. Were the children guilty of anything? Nadda..just being children. But comparing her children being murdered to someone murdering a PEDOPHILE? LOL that takes the cake.Yeah, it's insane to think that way - isn't it. But that's how she was thinking.

Insanity - it's not just a pretty word. She's got all her adult knowledge, adult size, with a mind that sees an insane world where protecting your children requires killing them.

michelle
01-19-2006, 08:38 PM
Let's see...she is sane enough to feed herself, sane enough to call the cops after she commits a crime, sane enough to dress herself, sane enough to know HOW to murder and commit it, sane enough to be able to speak in detail about her mental struggles, sane enough to drive a car, sane enough to know not to commit other crimes. Nah...

. this is what gets me about andrea, i dont understand how she could do all these things and still be labeled "insane".

Jeana (DP)
01-20-2006, 09:51 AM
She wasn't feeding herself, washing her hair or taking care of herself in other ways. I think maybe some people didn't read everything they could about this case.

Mama-cita
01-27-2006, 08:52 PM
I have recently read a lot about this case and I am overwhelmed at how this woman was failed by everyone around her. After multiple suicide attempts and the self-mutilation, how could anyone not institutionalize her? If Rusty loved his kids, how would he LEAVE THEM ALONE IN THAT SITUATION DAY IN AND DAY OUT??????????????????? And now he has the b@!!$ to say he needs to move on with his life and have more kids? This guy is a real prince charming, NOT! One can only hope that any sane woman would think very had before marrying him. Oh wait, maybe he likes insane women because they are the only ones who will go along with his crazy lifestyle?????

JMO, but this is frustrating, those babies did NOT have to die. Rusty should think about his role in THAT, not having more kids...

JMO!

altruist1000
01-28-2006, 12:14 AM
IMO, Rusty Yates should have been charged with "NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE" when he left those children with an incompetent, insane woman to care for them. Right from the beginning I found him to be the one who should have been held responsible for the tragedy of the deaths of those 5 children.

Any woman who agrees to home school & live out of a bus with 5 children is definitely out of her mind & he knew of her condition.

Rusty Yates makes me SICK.

Jeana (DP)
01-30-2006, 10:41 AM
I have recently read a lot about this case and I am overwhelmed at how this woman was failed by everyone around her. After multiple suicide attempts and the self-mutilation, how could anyone not institutionalize her? If Rusty loved his kids, how would he LEAVE THEM ALONE IN THAT SITUATION DAY IN AND DAY OUT??????????????????? And now he has the b@!!$ to say he needs to move on with his life and have more kids? This guy is a real prince charming, NOT! One can only hope that any sane woman would think very had before marrying him. Oh wait, maybe he likes insane women because they are the only ones who will go along with his crazy lifestyle?????

JMO, but this is frustrating, those babies did NOT have to die. Rusty should think about his role in THAT, not having more kids...

JMO!


You're exactly right Mama. These children did NOT need to die but trying to put the blame on Andrea for these murders is like trying to blame someone for getting cancer. There are things the mind and the body do to people that they just can't control. That's when their loved ones and the OTHER PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILDREN need to step in and take over.

Lauren
01-30-2006, 04:01 PM
I have not had a chance to read alot of the previous posts. Are Rusty and Andrea divorcing? I think he is as much to blame if not more for her. He knew she was not capable or in her right mind to keep having babies. Living in a bus, homeschooling. That's nuts. Not saying what she did is at all right, but the woman was/is mentally ILL! She has to live with what she did. Meanwhile RY goes on a talk show and say how he misses the kids and blah blah blah. He sure is husband material. NOT!



Thanks for reading my posts!:cool: