PDA

View Full Version : NOTGUILTY TX - Andrea Yates Granted New Trial *NG/Insanity*






Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

indigomood
07-22-2004, 10:55 AM
HOUSTON - Andrea Yates, serving a life sentence for drowning her children in a bathtub, asked her husband why he didn't bring them to visit her in prison last weekend, her attorney said Wednesday.

"She thought the kids were still alive," attorney George Parnham said.


Andrea Yates was transferred from the prison near Rusk to a Galveston hospital Monday night after refusing food and losing more than 20 pounds.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040722/ap_on_re_us/andrea_yates

Casshew
07-22-2004, 10:57 AM
The husband should be in jail and she should be in a institution. IMO

blueclouds
07-22-2004, 12:05 PM
The husband should be in jail and she should be in a institution. IMO

:clap: I agree

Beffie
07-22-2004, 09:26 PM
The husband should be in jail and she should be in a institution. IMO

Amen, to that!!

deputylinda
07-22-2004, 09:32 PM
i don't believe that BS for one minute. i know, very well, a female who shot her 4 year old twin sons to death...and she is trying the same Sh-T. and the husband is as complicit as she (yates). i am SO SICK OF APOLOGISTS FOR KIDDIE KILLERS!!! :furious:

Texana
07-23-2004, 12:22 AM
i don't believe that BS for one minute. i know, very well, a female who shot her 4 year old twin sons to death...and she is trying the same Sh-T. and the husband is as complicit as she (yates). i am SO SICK OF APOLOGISTS FOR KIDDIE KILLERS!!! :furious:

Sorry, DeputyLinda, I have to take exception to this with you. I don't think Andrea Yates should be out in public for one minute BUT...she was clearly psychotic after her first child. Doctors told her husband that if she continued to have children, she was at risk for severe post-partum depression--but he thought they could just "fix it" with medicine.

I don't know how familiar you are with the details of the case, but her husband moved her and the four children (before Mary's birth) into a small bus-sized travel trailer. They were going to move around the country and home school. They sold their previous decent-sized home and got the bus, but Andrea couldn't handle it, so they bought a smaller home in Clear Lake.

I think she was a person driven to perfection, and the combination of the hormonal imbalances and depression--when she felt she couldn't live up to her ideals, and most definitely Rusty's--was a killer combination.

She was not bathing or eating really at the time of the killings. She had tried to kill herself before, but oddly enough, no one saw that as a sign of violence.

Rusty Yates said once she had "two hours all to herself" each week--and she usually chose to go grocery shopping with the baby then.

The fact that Dee Parnham was ruled innocent by reason of insanity and Andrea was not is a travesty. Parnham went to church, was carrying on quite normally--even inviting her extended family over for dinner the next day--and all the time planned to kill her children. She told her husband "Everything's fine" when he heard the commotion as she tried to kill their toddler child--clearly, she KNEW what she did was wrong. By legal standards, she should have been found guilty just as Yates was.

Yates in contrast was obviously mentally ill. She was not bathing herself--she had severe lice infestation according to one report--and she was barely speaking. Why anyone would leave her alone with children is beyond my comprehension.

Andrea Yates should not ever be released because she is clearly psychotic. Unfortunately now, as soon as the drugs take effect, she realizes what she has done and she chooses to revert to her pyschotic stage, understandably.

On medication and with only two children, maybe not with the emotional pressures of home schooling, I don't think Andrea would have ever killed her children.

We must find a way to protect society from mentally ill people until we can find a way to prevent or cure mental illness for good--not just something that keeps the symptoms at bay.

deputylinda
07-23-2004, 12:36 AM
TEXANA... that is an excellent, well-thought -out and persuasive post...and i see your points. i have mixed feelings about yates case. i think i am still shell-shocked over susan smith and the female that i know who killed her twins...i am jaded and sick of mothers killing children. my tolerance level is at zero. because i have to ride life-flight helicopter to city with two gunshot , headshot babies...i just don't give a damn about these mothers anymore. sorry. i do respect your opinion.

Texana
07-23-2004, 07:35 PM
TEXANA... that is an excellent, well-thought -out and persuasive post...and i see your points. i have mixed feelings about yates case. i think i am still shell-shocked over susan smith and the female that i know who killed her twins...i am jaded and sick of mothers kiling children. my tolerance level is at zero. because i have to ride life-flight helicopter to city with two gunshot , headshot babies...i just don't give a damn about these mothers anymore. sorry. i do respect your opinion.


I can understand your feelings. I started reading up on these cases when I was a new mother because honestly, I had such a personal fear of it. I was so afraid that I might end up like that--the news reports so often make it sound like the "perfect mother" just snapped.

Seems like you can divide the cases where mothers kill their children into three groups:

1) The young (or started having babies very young) mother who is basically an addict of some kind, emotionally immature from her own crummy background, who kills, often an infant, or leaves her infant with a boyfriend who turns abusive. The recent death of a one-year old about an hour or so from here, is an example--two or three guys showed up at the mother's house one evening, she jumped in the car, and the driver backed over her son. According to the police, "Nobody seemed to be lookingout for the child." Says it all, doesn't it? Or they suffocate their babies at birth, dump them in the trash, etc. Panic or neglect of some sort seem to be the main factors.

2) The plotting sociopathic mother. Diane Downs is the poster child here. Susan Smith probably fits in, too. Key point: like group #1, they aren't good mothers BEFORE the killing. Diane Downs was a lousy mother before she shot her children. The children were poorly fed, ignored, and neglected overall. They were the children you see in your neighborhood where you think, "What is that mother thinking?" Nothing about her children, it seems. They can plan and lie afterwards about the deaths because they are basically devoid of feeling. Group #1 doesn't seem to have the ability to lie so easily .

3) The third group is the mentally ill, or those who show signs of it. They differ from the others in that they seem to be "perfect mothers" before they kill. Their delusions often have a religious base. The common refrain is "She seemed like such a good mother and the children were so loved."

I still can't understand why Dee Parnham was acquitted (although she is more or less incarcerated in a mental hospital) and Andrea Yates was convicted. Parnham had no history of mental illness, while Yates had been hospitalized for mental illness. Yates' mental condition had been documented by professionals as well. Guess that's what a jury will do for you--and an expert witness or two--

The one who testified in both trials said that Yates should have known that what she was doing was wrong since it was the devil who supposedly told her that her children were going to hell. Parnham thought her instructions were coming from God. I thought that line of reasoning was insane in itself. If you are hearing voices, you are supposed to reason that if it's the devil, you shouldn't do it? Hell, they're hearing voices! How can you expect an insane person to reason at all?

But that said, I don't think Yates OR Parnham should ever get out. For whatever reason, both women did not seek help or get help from their family. Parnham's religious network supported the idea that one might hear voices or have visions. Yates was isolated in the extreme, although one female friend of hers did try repeatedly to get Rusty to take different action with Andera.

Rusty Yates (maybe you can tell I don't like him) has a problem with authority. He never found a church he could agree with--although for a time he supported a radical preacher whose views included the idea that women were basically susceptible to the devil and often were the pawns of the devil. He said later that Andrea continued with the preacher more than he did (Rusty doesn't take a lot of responsibility for the situation.)

Rusty also ignored the doctors' warnings that having more children would very likely result in further post-partum psychosis for Andrea. He told people he wanted a "baseball team" of children. He seemed to have a hard time accepting "It's not going to happen" when it came to his dreams. I think when they abandoned the bus idea, there may very well have been a lot of guilt placed on Andrea for not being able to cope with four very young children living in a school bus.

When the police arrived after the killings (Andrea called 911) they wanted to get a drink of water--I think for Andrea--and Rusty said (according to police) "You won't find a clean glass in the house."

This says it all to me. If his wife wasn't capable of even washing the dishes, why was she left alone with the children? Supposedly Rusty's mother arrived an hour after Rusty went to work, but did she not do a minimal bit of housework while she was there? Were there not even enough glasses in the house that during the day, the children would use them all up? (remember, Rusty sold all their belongings prior to getting the bus/trailer home.) Or did Rusty not help in any way when he got home each evening?

Rusty also said that he "offered" to get help with the children but Andrea didn't want it.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that comment.

Is Yates dangerous? Absolutely, although she is physically too frail to hurt anyone right now. Like so many mentally ill people, she refused to take her medicine, etc, and wasn't honest when she was in therapy. (although according to a couple who attended group therapy with Andrea and the couple's daughter when both were hospitalized, Rusty repeatedly talked "for" Andrea during group talk.)

I really do think she is the poster child for everything that is wrong with mental health today, including the idea that a few "drugs" can fix a person.
There are five beautiful children that didn't have to die that day and most days I cannot bear to think about what the oldest child said or did before he died.

snorky
07-24-2004, 12:06 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap:
I can understand your feelings. I started reading up on these cases when I was a new mother because honestly, I had such a personal fear of it. I was so afraid that I might end up like that--the news reports so often make it sound like the "perfect mother" just snapped.

Seems like you can divide the cases where mothers kill their children into three groups:

1) The young (or started having babies very young) mother who is basically an addict of some kind, emotionally immature from her own crummy background, who kills, often an infant, or leaves her infant with a boyfriend who turns abusive. The recent death of a one-year old about an hour or so from here, is an example--two or three guys showed up at the mother's house one evening, she jumped in the car, and the driver backed over her son. According to the police, "Nobody seemed to be lookingout for the child." Says it all, doesn't it? Or they suffocate their babies at birth, dump them in the trash, etc. Panic or neglect of some sort seem to be the main factors.

2) The plotting sociopathic mother. Diane Downs is the poster child here. Susan Smith probably fits in, too. Key point: like group #1, they aren't good mothers BEFORE the killing. Diane Downs was a lousy mother before she shot her children. The children were poorly fed, ignored, and neglected overall. They were the children you see in your neighborhood where you think, "What is that mother thinking?" Nothing about her children, it seems. They can plan and lie afterwards about the deaths because they are basically devoid of feeling. Group #1 doesn't seem to have the ability to lie so easily .

3) The third group is the mentally ill, or those who show signs of it. They differ from the others in that they seem to be "perfect mothers" before they kill. Their delusions often have a religious base. The common refrain is "She seemed like such a good mother and the children were so loved."

I still can't understand why Dee Parnham was acquitted (although she is more or less incarcerated in a mental hospital) and Andrea Yates was convicted. Parnham had no history of mental illness, while Yates had been hospitalized for mental illness. Yates' mental condition had been documented by professionals as well. Guess that's what a jury will do for you--and an expert witness or two--

The one who testified in both trials said that Yates should have known that what she was doing was wrong since it was the devil who supposedly told her that her children were going to hell. Parnham thought her instructions were coming from God. I thought that line of reasoning was insane in itself. If you are hearing voices, you are supposed to reason that if it's the devil, you shouldn't do it? Hell, they're hearing voices! How can you expect an insane person to reason at all?

But that said, I don't think Yates OR Parnham should ever get out. For whatever reason, both women did not seek help or get help from their family. Parnham's religious network supported the idea that one might hear voices or have visions. Yates was isolated in the extreme, although one female friend of hers did try repeatedly to get Rusty to take different action with Andera.

Rusty Yates (maybe you can tell I don't like him) has a problem with authority. He never found a church he could agree with--although for a time he supported a radical preacher whose views included the idea that women were basically susceptible to the devil and often were the pawns of the devil. He said later that Andrea continued with the preacher more than he did (Rusty doesn't take a lot of responsibility for the situation.)

Rusty also ignored the doctors' warnings that having more children would very likely result in further post-partum psychosis for Andrea. He told people he wanted a "baseball team" of children. He seemed to have a hard time accepting "It's not going to happen" when it came to his dreams. I think when they abandoned the bus idea, there may very well have been a lot of guilt placed on Andrea for not being able to cope with four very young children living in a school bus.

When the police arrived after the killings (Andrea called 911) they wanted to get a drink of water--I think for Andrea--and Rusty said (according to police) "You won't find a clean glass in the house."

This says it all to me. If his wife wasn't capable of even washing the dishes, why was she left alone with the children? Supposedly Rusty's mother arrived an hour after Rusty went to work, but did she not do a minimal bit of housework while she was there? Were there not even enough glasses in the house that during the day, the children would use them all up? (remember, Rusty sold all their belongings prior to getting the bus/trailer home.) Or did Rusty not help in any way when he got home each evening?

Rusty also said that he "offered" to get help with the children but Andrea didn't want it.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that comment.

Is Yates dangerous? Absolutely, although she is physically too frail to hurt anyone right now. Like so many mentally ill people, she refused to take her medicine, etc, and wasn't honest when she was in therapy. (although according to a couple who attended group therapy with Andrea and the couple's daughter when both were hospitalized, Rusty repeatedly talked "for" Andrea during group talk.)

I really do think she is the poster child for everything that is wrong with mental health today, including the idea that a few "drugs" can fix a person.
There are five beautiful children that didn't have to die that day and most days I cannot bear to think about what the oldest child said or did before he died.
Texana~ Very well written and thought provoking. You certainly reminded me of what I already know of mental illness (I have a sibling suffering - I know a little bit, wish I didn't) As a mother, it's so hard to phantom another mother, committing what I consider the worst crime possible. But, not being in a state of mental illness (praise 'GOD'), it's very hard to think a mother would be in such a state of mind to do this. Your hope brings in a little light, and answers some of the questions I have asked in this tragedy.

bookbakery
07-24-2004, 05:17 PM
Is Yates dangerous? Absolutely, although she is physically too frail to hurt anyone right now. Like so many mentally ill people, she refused to take her medicine, etc, and wasn't honest when she was in therapy. (although according to a couple who attended group therapy with Andrea and the couple's daughter when both were hospitalized, Rusty repeatedly talked "for" Andrea during group talk.)

I really do think she is the poster child for everything that is wrong with mental health today, including the idea that a few "drugs" can fix a person.
There are five beautiful children that didn't have to die that day and most days I cannot bear to think about what the oldest child said or did before he died.

__________________
Texana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Texana, as you know, the oldest child told his mother (Andrea Yates) that he was sorry. And, of course, he ran from her in the house when he realized that she was going to drown him in the tub, like he saw that Mary had been. This just breaks my heart. Poor child must have thought it was his fault for him to tell her that he was sorry. Yes, I believe that she is/was extremely mentally ill and should be permantly hospitalized instead of in jail. I also believe that it would be merciful to let her live in her la-la land rather than for her to realize what she did while psychotic.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I truly believe that she had no idea what was going on. And her husband, Rusty, is as much to blame. To think that living in a bus-sized home with four children would be acceptable. Hmmph.

Texana
07-24-2004, 10:54 PM
Thank you, Snorky, very kind of you to say so.

I agree Bookbakery, Rusty Yates is far more responsible than he was legally held to be. Would you leave your children with a babysitter in the same condition as Andrea? Of course not. I think the d/a decided that he has been punished enough, but I feel he had some responsibility. A friend of Andrea's even tried to warn him that Andrea was in serious danger (she was a nursing friend from Andrea's working days--oddly enough, Andrea was a nurse) but Rusty blew her off. If you look at the photos of Andrea before and after the crime, it is just shockingly apparent that something awful was going on.

Also, I've always felt that there is a definite element of rage--and I think against Rusty--in what Andrea did. It takes enormous energy and strength to do what she did--chasing down that older child--Apparently those little wet footprints were still visible on the tile floor when the police arrived. Such a horrific thing--

Some therapists believe much depression can be traced to unresolved anger--people unable to express their frustrations, anger, etc, become depressed. It makes sense to me. I think it was true for Andrea. Her mother said and of course, this is "hearsay" that at one point when Andrea was hospitalized, she asked Rusty to change a diaper for one of the children and he said, "Well, that'll be a first." Whatever happened, her family feels very strongly that he did not do enough to help her and he brought this on by his insistence on a large family.

BTW, her attorney, George Parnham, is on Fox News tonight as a TH for the Kobe Bryant case.

Also, Bookbakery, I think when she is pyschotic, she doesn't eat. So it become an issue of making her well enough to eat by herself...and then of course, she realizes what she did.

The woman in Hawaii who committed a similiar crime about 20 years ago, committed suicide finally when she was lucid enough.

Newswolf
07-25-2004, 02:30 PM
I hadn't read this till today, because this is one of those cases that gives me nightmares.

I think her husband is culpable too and having read this, I dislike him even more.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5505550/site/newsweek/

"Those close to her say they think they know what triggered this relapse in psychosis: vivid memories of her drowning her five children in the family bathtub, and her husband's telling her that he wanted a divorce.
When close friends Robert and Debbie Holmes went for a visit in late May, "she went straight to discussing her divorce," Robert Holmes told NEWSWEEK. The conversation got emotional, he said, when Andrea recounted her husband's reasons. "Rusty told her that if her appeal were successful and she is actually able to get out, there would always be the trust issue," Holmes said. "He told her he could never trust her alone with children again. And she said Rusty wants to have more children." Later in the visit, Andrea turned to Debbie and told her she was haunted by memories of June 20, 2001, when she killed her children. "She was wailing and kept asking, 'How could I have done this?' " Holmes said. "We told her she was sick, that she wasn't herself. She cried hard that day." Shortly after, she began refusing food and drink, her doctors say. Rusty thinks his wife's relapse may have been prompted by the third anniversary of the children's death, her 40th birthday in July and "the uncertainty of where we will be going in our marriage."

Jeana (DP)
07-26-2004, 11:23 AM
Why does the Ahold, Rusty, need to be talking at all to her about their marriage right now? If he's going to divorce her, he needs to just do it and leave her alone. If he's not going to do it, he needs to try to help her recovery (if that's possible) and not add to her pain.

Texana
07-26-2004, 07:48 PM
Why does the Ahold, Rusty, need to be talking at all to her about their marriage right now? If he's going to divorce her, he needs to just do it and leave her alone. If he's not going to do it, he needs to try to help her recovery (if that's possible) and not add to her pain.

I could not agree more.

And notice how Rusty wants more children--he didn't protect the ones he had--and he's still the same old Rusty--"I want more children." I think he was talking about having more children before she even went to trial. He has a very odd sort of "just replace them with more children" mentality.

NewMom2003
07-30-2004, 12:58 PM
Sorry, DeputyLinda, I have to take exception to this with you. I don't think Andrea Yates should be out in public for one minute BUT...she was clearly psychotic after her first child. Doctors told her husband that if she continued to have children, she was at risk for severe post-partum depression--but he thought they could just "fix it" with medicine.

I don't know how familiar you are with the details of the case, but her husband moved her and the four children (before Mary's birth) into a small bus-sized travel trailer. They were going to move around the country and home school. They sold their previous decent-sized home and got the bus, but Andrea couldn't handle it, so they bought a smaller home in Clear Lake.

I think she was a person driven to perfection, and the combination of the hormonal imbalances and depression--when she felt she couldn't live up to her ideals, and most definitely Rusty's--was a killer combination.

She was not bathing or eating really at the time of the killings. She had tried to kill herself before, but oddly enough, no one saw that as a sign of violence.

Rusty Yates said once she had "two hours all to herself" each week--and she usually chose to go grocery shopping with the baby then.

The fact that Dee Parnham was ruled innocent by reason of insanity and Andrea was not is a travesty. Parnham went to church, was carrying on quite normally--even inviting her extended family over for dinner the next day--and all the time planned to kill her children. She told her husband "Everything's fine" when he heard the commotion as she tried to kill their toddler child--clearly, she KNEW what she did was wrong. By legal standards, she should have been found guilty just as Yates was.

Yates in contrast was obviously mentally ill. She was not bathing herself--she had severe lice infestation according to one report--and she was barely speaking. Why anyone would leave her alone with children is beyond my comprehension.

Andrea Yates should not ever be released because she is clearly psychotic. Unfortunately now, as soon as the drugs take effect, she realizes what she has done and she chooses to revert to her pyschotic stage, understandably.

On medication and with only two children, maybe not with the emotional pressures of home schooling, I don't think Andrea would have ever killed her children.

We must find a way to protect society from mentally ill people until we can find a way to prevent or cure mental illness for good--not just something that keeps the symptoms at bay.

From one Texan to another ... I couldn't agree with you more on this. Being from Houston, I've had the same (very heated) debate with many people I know.

Jeana (DP)
07-30-2004, 01:01 PM
From one Texan to another ... I couldn't agree with you more on this. Being from Houston, I've had the same (very heated) debate with many people I know.

A bunch of us from Dallas couldn't agree more NewMom! This is the only case I can remember that honestly made me question the system when dealing with mental illness.

Arielle
08-02-2004, 11:33 AM
The thing I wonder about Andrea Yates is how she could not possibly know what she was doing was wrong. It takes considerable time and strength to drown 5 children. My 4 year old often fights me when I'm trying to wash her hair. She can put up quite a struggle. Can you imagine these children fighting for their lives and the struggle they put up trying to breathe? And the one running through the house, that she had to chase down. How could she not know that what she was doing was wrong? Somehow I can find it in my heart to forgive a mother who shot her children more than I can Andrea Yates. The shooting takes seconds. Methodically killing 5 children by drowning takes a long time.

Rachael
08-02-2004, 11:41 AM
I think she should be in an institution as well. I don't blame the husband as much as everyone else does. He was not the one who drowned the kids. His mother was there helping her with the kids every day since she became really sick. He would leave for work and within an hour his mom would be there. She killed the kids within the hour that the husband left and the mother was due to arrive. I am not saying he's a great person because I do think he put too much responsibility on her knowing after the fourth child that she was weak. I think she went into the marraige the same way he did by thinking they would have as many kids as god would give them. I also believe it was her idea to homeschool the kids.

Txswthrt5
08-02-2004, 11:55 AM
I think she should be in an institution as well. I don't blame the husband as much as everyone else does. He was not the one who drowned the kids. His mother was there helping her with the kids every day since she became really sick. He would leave for work and within an hour his mom would be there. She killed the kids within the hour that the husband left and the mother was due to arrive. I am not saying he's a great person because I do think he put too much responsibility on her knowing after the fourth child that she was weak. I think she went into the marraige the same way he did by thinking they would have as many kids as god would give them. I also believe it was her idea to homeschool the kids.

You are correct Rachel - BUT... Andrea had mentioned to her husband, and her therapist, prior to the crime that she was thinking about killing the kids. Something to the effect that that was the only way she could get out of the hell she was in. That is why his mother stayed with her every day. They had prior warning, and still left her alone with the kids. Andreas doctor told the husband she should not have any more kids, it would be too much of a psychological strain on her, yet he decided he wanted more. Andrea was a straight A kid in school and very adept nurse at one time. As she succumbed to her husbands abuse (yes, he was mentally abusive) she sank into the depths of phycholigical illness. He is as much to blame in this as she is, IMO. He operated under the "Man is the KING" & Keep them "Barefoot and pregnant" regardless of what professionals and doctors told him. If he had waited til his mother got there to leave for work, the kids would still be alive. If he had gotten Andrea the proper care, the kids would still be alive. He had prior warning that all was not right, he should have taken further precautions to insure that Andrea was never alone with those kids. I do NOT excuse her from culpability in this case, but I believe her husband needs to be held responsible too. IMO -

PS - A friend of mine was in jail with Andrea for a time, and she says the lady is WAY out of it. She was in a private cell in the "baby-killer" section of the Prison, and under suicide watch since she arrived. She was never allowed to mingle with the GP either. She has now been moved to a smaller prison in Galveston where she can be watched more closely.

Jeana (DP)
08-02-2004, 11:58 AM
The thing I wonder about Andrea Yates is how she could not possibly know what she was doing was wrong. It takes considerable time and strength to drown 5 children. My 4 year old often fights me when I'm trying to wash her hair. She can put up quite a struggle. Can you imagine these children fighting for their lives and the struggle they put up trying to breathe? And the one running through the house, that she had to chase down. How could she not know that what she was doing was wrong? Somehow I can find it in my heart to forgive a mother who shot her children more than I can Andrea Yates. The shooting takes seconds. Methodically killing 5 children by drowning takes a long time.


I'm no doctor, so I can't really answer your question with any degree of certainty. I can only offer my opinion, such as it is. On a purely human level, I think that at the time, she was so deep into her depression, that she may have knew that she wasn't doing a good job parenting them and may have thought that they'd be better off in Heaven than with her. I think her religeon played a part in her "decision." When she's taking her meds, she now knows how absolutely horrible it was for her to do, but at the time in a sick mind, it may have seemed "reasonable" to her. She had been trying to get medical attention, so its not an "out of the blue" illness (like the mother who stoned her children to death, yet was found to be "insane.")

On the "legal" side of this, I think the standard is flawed. I think that you can know what you're doing is "wrong," yet still be "insane" or "temporarily insane." Especially since we now know for a fact that "post partum psychosis," is real and is devastating. I believe that if an established mental illness was the "deciding factor" in these cases, and that mental illness doesn't "miraculously" get "cured" in the days following the murder, then it should be allowed.

Newswolf
08-02-2004, 08:18 PM
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=D50B7D46-F3FF-41BB-AA79-31ECE2B4E1E5

The husband of a Houston woman who drowned the couple's five children, has filed for divorce.
The petition from Russell Yates was filed in Harris County, where Andrea Yates was convicted of capital murder in the 2001 deaths of three of the children.
~~~~~~~
An attorney for Russell Yates says the petition was mailed last week and seeks a "standard, uncontested divorce."
Yates didn't immediately return a phone message today for comment on his divorce proceeding.
Andrea Yates attorney George Parnham says he's certain she is aware of the filing.
During her trial, psychiatrists testified the woman suffered from schizophrenia and postpartum depression. "


She's back in prison now, so I guess he figured it was safe to dump her.

tuppence
08-02-2004, 08:40 PM
I think part of the issue is that the law focuses on whether the women know that what they are doing is "legally" wrong rather than "morally" wrong. I think they feel like they are beholden to a higher law - "God's" and that what they are doing is what he wants because they think they are hearing the voice of God, etc. In my mind this qualifies as insane. They love their kids but believe that God wants them or that they are saving their kids from going to the devil by sending them to God. Its crazy stuff...

smellsarat
08-02-2004, 08:59 PM
I was just reading people mag...said he wanted a divorce cuz he WANTS MORE children!!! This guy should not be allowed to have children...The moron overwhelmed her with kids....ignored her mental state and put those kids at risk...He is as culpable...or maybe more so cuz he is supposed to be sane...Just makes me BOIL!!!!:furious:

Texana
08-02-2004, 09:21 PM
Well, we have to admit Rusty is honest--He said from almost the minute Andrea was convicted that he wanted more children! Seems to me he should take more responsibility for not protecting the ones he had already before he decides to have more--And as Andrea's lawyer said today in the news release, his timing could have been better, he picks the third anniversary of the children's deaths to say "Andrea, I'm getting a divorce. "

Rachel, if you read the accounts, you see that Rusty was a well-educated man who basically decided that if she just got the right medication, she could have as many children as he wanted. Anybody doing even the slightest bit of research on the Internet or talking to a doctor today would find that when it comes to severe post-partum psychosis, or any kind of pyschosis, there is no easy cure. As an engineer for NASA, Rusty had access to the information. He chose to ignore it, just as he ignored the doctor's advice that if Andrea had more children, she would surely be pyschotic again. And again--Rusty thought it was reasonable that "Andrea had two hours to herself every week."

Think of having a husband who measured your time alone--who doled it out to you--and thought it perfectly reasonable that during that time, you would go to the grocery store alone with just baby Mary.

What makes one mentally ill person violent and not another? What caused Andrea Yates to kill, whereas some women merely sink into depression or self-medicate with alcohol or drugs? We don't really know. There was certainly some element of rage and violence within Andrea that lashed out. I cannot help but think there was a mixture of sheer raw emotion mixed with the insane justification her brain gave her ("kill the children and they will go to heaven") that enabled her to chase those poor children down and hold them underwater.

IMO, Rusty has never really faced up to his loss because he's always felt he could have more children.

To be honest, I'm surprised he's waited this long to divorce her. I really thought it would have happened sooner, given some of his comments. But the house just sold this spring and not it will be much easier just to divide up the assets.

blueclouds
08-03-2004, 01:18 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/08/02/russell.yates.ap/index.html

:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious: Just another link for the DIVORCE. I can't explain my absolute madness about this. This SOB should be in jail along with his wife. I believe him to be EXCEPTIONALLY CULPABLE. bastard :furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:

bookbakery
08-03-2004, 01:41 AM
Sorry, DeputyLinda, I have to take exception to this with you. I don't think Andrea Yates should be out in public for one minute BUT...she was clearly psychotic after her first child. Doctors told her husband that if she continued to have children, she was at risk for severe post-partum depression--but he thought they could just "fix it" with medicine.

I don't know how familiar you are with the details of the case, but her husband moved her and the four children (before Mary's birth) into a small bus-sized travel trailer. They were going to move around the country and home school. They sold their previous decent-sized home and got the bus, but Andrea couldn't handle it, so they bought a smaller home in Clear Lake.

I think she was a person driven to perfection, and the combination of the hormonal imbalances and depression--when she felt she couldn't live up to her ideals, and most definitely Rusty's--was a killer combination.

She was not bathing or eating really at the time of the killings. She had tried to kill herself before, but oddly enough, no one saw that as a sign of violence.

Rusty Yates said once she had "two hours all to herself" each week--and she usually chose to go grocery shopping with the baby then.
<SNIP>
Besides the obvious mental distress this woman was undergoing, two things stand out. She had just 2 hours to herself each week? Is this not in and of itself insane? Who can manage their life under that kind of pressure??

Also, Rusty moved them into a bus sized travel trailer? This is also unacceptable. Of course, he is at work all day, but to live in such small quarters with 4 children and also home-schooling them is atrocious.

The least he should have been charged with was spousal abuse. And that preacher that thought women were evil that Andrea was in close contact with. That sure didn't help her at all.

I know what she did is uncomprehensible, but she was clearly not herself. Her suicide attempt and the facts that she was barely eating and not taking care of her personal hygiene are HUGE warning signs that must be taken seriously. Heck, anybody that's ever read Dear Abby knows this.

I've been in the Mental Health field for 31 years and I have seen my share of people seriously in need of help. Rusty needs help here and he can't see it, just like he couldn't see that his wife and children were in grave danger, partly due to his selfish actions, including having more children against medical advice.

I wish a judge would order him to undergo counseling before having any more children. Oh, and to file for divorce on or near the anniversary of the deaths of his children... This guy is an insensitive sicko. But, being insensitive isn't against the law is it.

Why doesn't WS have a spell check???? LOL

bookbakery
08-03-2004, 02:31 AM
<big snip>
3) The third group is the mentally ill, or those who show signs of it. They differ from the others in that they seem to be "perfect mothers" before they kill. Their delusions often have a religious base. The common refrain is "She seemed like such a good mother and the children were so loved."

I still can't understand why Dee Parnham was acquitted (although she is more or less incarcerated in a mental hospital) and Andrea Yates was convicted. Parnham had no history of mental illness, while Yates had been hospitalized for mental illness. Yates' mental condition had been documented by professionals as well. Guess that's what a jury will do for you--and an expert witness or two--

Someone dropped the ball here... don't know who.

The one who testified in both trials said that Yates should have known that what she was doing was wrong since it was the devil who supposedly told her that her children were going to hell. Parnham thought her instructions were coming from God. I thought that line of reasoning was insane in itself. If you are hearing voices, you are supposed to reason that if it's the devil, you shouldn't do it?
This is totally absurd. The person who testified in both trials is inadequate. He/She should have been forced to provide scientific data to support these claims pertaining to the voices coming from God or Satan before the jury accepted it as evidence.

Hell, they're hearing voices! How can you expect an insane person to reason at all?

Absolutely!

But that said, I don't think Yates OR Parnham should ever get out. For whatever reason, both women did not seek help or get help from their family.

Why would it be Yates fault if she did not get help from her family? As for her not seeking help... if someone is very mentally ill it is left up to the non-ill family members to intervene to help her. If she cannot take care of her eating and personal hygiene and housekeeping, how can one expect her to take care of her mental health? I think she was beyond helping herself. She was confused because she had been advised not to have more children, but here is her husband wanting "a baseball team". I think it is very probable that she didn't want any more children, but how could she go against her husband? Her religious adviser certainly wasn't any help in this area.

Yes, she should be institutionalized until she has gone for many years sane with the help of medication and an acceptance of her deeds. Her sanity may never return for any length of time and that would be then the good choice to leave her locked up for the rest of her life.

Parnham's religious network supported the idea that one might hear voices or have visions. Yates was isolated in the extreme, although one female friend of hers did try repeatedly to get Rusty to take different action with Andera.

Rusty Yates (maybe you can tell I don't like him) has a problem with authority. He never found a church he could agree with--although for a time he supported a radical preacher whose views included the idea that women were basically susceptible to the devil and often were the pawns of the devil. He said later that Andrea continued with the preacher more than he did (Rusty doesn't take a lot of responsibility for the situation.)

Rusty also ignored the doctors' warnings that having more children would very likely result in further post-partum psychosis for Andrea. He told people he wanted a "baseball team" of children. He seemed to have a hard time accepting "It's not going to happen" when it came to his dreams. I think when they abandoned the bus idea, there may very well have been a lot of guilt placed on Andrea for not being able to cope with four very young children living in a school bus.

Here again, we have Rusty who is clearly more concerned with his number of children than he is with his wife's safety. He hasn't accepted any of the responsibility that led his wife to kill, has he?

When the police arrived after the killings (Andrea called 911) they wanted to get a drink of water--I think for Andrea--and Rusty said (according to police) "You won't find a clean glass in the house."

This says it all to me. If his wife wasn't capable of even washing the dishes, why was she left alone with the children? Supposedly Rusty's mother arrived an hour after Rusty went to work, but did she not do a minimal bit of housework while she was there? Were there not even enough glasses in the house that during the day, the children would use them all up? (remember, Rusty sold all their belongings prior to getting the bus/trailer home.) Or did Rusty not help in any way when he got home each evening?

I would be willing to bet money that Rusty didn't help in any way with the home chores. He all but admitted this when he stated that she had only two hours a WEEK to herself. Why couldn't this idiot give her more help? Afterall, it was definitely a priority for him to have lots of children. Does he think he can just participate in the conception and leave the rest of the duties to his wife or mother? He is immature and irresponsible.

Rusty also said that he "offered" to get help with the children but Andrea didn't want it.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that comment.

I'll bite. My conclusion is that this part about getting help was clearly not a priority for him. As I stated previously, Andrea's mental health was in deep doodoo. Why would he leave this decision up to her? What is wrong with this man?

Is Yates dangerous? Absolutely, although she is physically too frail to hurt anyone right now. Like so many mentally ill people, she refused to take her medicine, etc, and wasn't honest when she was in therapy. (although according to a couple who attended group therapy with Andrea and the couple's daughter when both were hospitalized, Rusty repeatedly talked "for" Andrea during group talk.)

Again, you are placing the responsibility for this sick woman to help herself. Why wasn't she honest in therapy? Was it because her husband was there controlling her? Did she really get the help she needed? I don't think so.

I found in my 31 yrs of dealing with them, that many mentally ill do take their medication if they have gotten past the critical time with they are psychotic or suicidal. It sometimes takes hospitalization and a private therapist for the mentally ill person. This person has to be able to establish a trust with her doctor and her therapist. This trust leads to a happier outcome for the psychiatric patient. She/He then passes the critical stages and goes into the healing stages that come with psychotropic medications, counseling with a qualified therapist/psychologist and regular visits with a psychiatrist.

I really do think she is the poster child for everything that is wrong with mental health today, including the idea that a few "drugs" can fix a person.
There are five beautiful children that didn't have to die that day and most days <snip>
I disagree with the idea that Andrea Yates is the Poster Child for what is wrong with Mental Health today. She is an unfortunate person who did NOT get the help she needed due to her family and friends failing her. Drugs play a very important part in improving the mental health of patients, just like drugs for diabetes, substance abuse, and high blood pressure. The consequences for not taking medication is death... including the deaths of innocents.

Andrea Yates clearly showed many signs of needing help. Her suicide attempt (was it just one... I don't know) was a Huge call for help. Why didn't her family respond? Was it their religion? Was it denial? Was it ignorance? I don't know. Why didn't Rusty put aside his desire for alot of children in favor of the health and safety of his wife and current children, when the doctor told them not to have more children?

If Rusty is the sane and healthy part of this marriage, he grossly failed in protecting and helping his wife. His failure and his faults do not extend to his wife. She is a separate being who deserved a lot better.

LinasK
08-03-2004, 03:02 AM
I was just reading people mag...said he wanted a divorce cuz he WANTS MORE children!!! This guy should not be allowed to have children...The moron overwhelmed her with kids....ignored her mental state and put those kids at risk...He is as culpable...or maybe more so cuz he is supposed to be sane...Just makes me BOIL!!!!:furious:
Personally I think him realizing he should divorce her is a good thing, it means he's finally realizing he's not going to impose more children on Andrea! I pity his next woman though...

bookbakery
08-03-2004, 03:05 AM
Personally I think him realizing he should divorce her is a good thing, it means he's finally realizing he's not going to impose more children on Andrea! I pity his next woman though...Huh?? Could he impose more children on Andrea? What is her sentence? When is she supposed to get out?

Jeana (DP)
08-03-2004, 09:39 AM
Personally, I'd like to see the women of the world unite and deny Rusty the chance to stick it into anything except Vicktor's plastic friend, Bessie, but that's just me, I may be wrong.

What's wrong here is that children in this country seem to be expendable in Rusty's opinion. Who the hell is he that he thinks he has the right to bring any other children into this world???? He has got to know that HE FAILED as a parent. He, the "man," is supposed to protect his family. He failed his wife. He failed his children. How he has the nerve to think he deserves to "try again." :mad:

Texana
08-03-2004, 10:03 AM
I disagree with the idea that Andrea Yates is the Poster Child for what is wrong with Mental Health today. She is an unfortunate person who did NOT get the help she needed due to her family and friends failing her. Drugs play a very important part in improving the mental health of patients, just like drugs for diabetes, substance abuse, and high blood pressure. The consequences for not taking medication is death... including the deaths of innocents.

Andrea Yates clearly showed many signs of needing help. Her suicide attempt (was it just one... I don't know) was a Huge call for help. Why didn't her family respond? Was it their religion? Was it denial? Was it ignorance? I don't know. Why didn't Rusty put aside his desire for alot of children in favor of the health and safety of his wife and current children, when the doctor told them not to have more children?

If Rusty is the sane and healthy part of this marriage, he grossly failed in protecting and helping his wife. His failure and his faults do not extend to his wife. She is a separate being who deserved a lot better.


Bookbakery, I actually could not agree with you more. It infuriates me that the burden of seeking help falls upon the mentally ill. We do not expect cancer patients to drive themselves to appointments, etc, but we still seem to not grasp that the mentally ill lack the ability to oversee their own care. How can they? It's absurd.

Andrea tried on at least two occasions to kill herself. After the second is when the doctors warned her and Rusty that more children would result in more psychosis. After this Mary, the baby at the time of the killings, was born.

To be fair, I think Rusty viewd Andrea's condition as something like diabetes or high blood pressure. Take the medicine and poof, you're okay. The reality that there is not necessarily a quick fix and it might have meant giving up more children for his wife's health seems to have eluded him. He was told that part of her care included counseling, but that seems to have been put on the back burner. I believe part of Andrea's illness stemmed from a deep depression over dealing with imperfection--she was a high-achieving individual and her husband was of the same mentality. She began to see her children's normal behavior as signs of her own failure as a mother, because she had taken on (and this is where the homeschooling was an issue) complete responsibility for every aspect of their lives, including planning and implementing their education. Without competent therapy, there's no way she could have come to terms with those feelings and unrealistic expectations.

Andrea had a doctor's appointment two days before the children died. She had been taken off Haldol about two weeks before. If she wasn't responding to the Haldol, it's hard to understand why she wasn't hospitalized again. She was clearly not doing better, at the very least.

That is what I mean by Andrea being the poster child. She did have a nursing colleague friend who recognized how sick she was, and visited Rusty pleading with him to try and do more to get Andrea hospitalized,etc, shortly before the deaths as well.

It infuriates me that Andrea told the doctors after Noah (first child) that she had visions of stabbing someone, that she tried to kill herself twice, and yet nobody thought she had any violent tendencies. Apparently, killing yourself does not count as violence. WHY?

There were other "overload" factors in Andrea's life as well as the "live on a schoolbus with four kids" attempt. At one point, she was nurse for her elderly father (I believe he had Alzheimer's, although I couldn't reference that. She did try to overdose with his Parkinson's meds.) This with three little children? And a history of post-partum?

That's why I think Andrea is the poster child. The system failed her, (she seems to have had the "insurance has run out, so you're cured" diagnosis in regards to her hospital stay.) her family--especially Rusty Yates--failed her.

Andrea can never be released because she was convicted and not acquitted on grounds of insanity. (as Dee Parnham, who beat her children with rocks, was, this spring.) If she had been acquitted on insanity defense, she could be released when the facility and doctors decided she was cured--which would have meant going right back to Rusty "she wouldn't take her meds" Yates.

Jeana (DP)
08-03-2004, 11:07 AM
Texana, actually the appeals process for Andrea is not yet completed and it is possible that an appeals court can overturn her guilty verdict and have her sent to a mental hospital. I hope that this is done - and SOON!!!

blueclouds
08-03-2004, 11:14 AM
stick it into anything except Vicktor's plastic friend, Bessie
:eek: :slap: :laugh: :dance: :p :woohoo: :clap: :woohoo: :dance:
I know this is a serious subject, but LMAO at Jeana's quote above. Oh Vicktor, is that the only friends you have?

Texana
08-03-2004, 11:53 AM
Texana, actually the appeals process for Andrea is not yet completed and it is possible that an appeals court can overturn her guilty verdict and have her sent to a mental hospital. I hope that this is done - and SOON!!!

Oh, exactly DP--I forgot about the appeals! I was thinking more in terms of the original sentence. Her first appeal which was based on the testimony of the expert witness (and I want to say it was Dietz--the "expert" on insanity--) to the jury about the supposed Law and Order episode in which a woman angry with her husband kills her children and then blames insanity--the episode never existed--the judges rules that wasn't material enough for a new trial. I think the jury may have been told to disregard that testimony but once it's said, who can say what didn't stick in their minds?

I hope she gets to a mental hospital as well. I really don't think she will last long where she is, I'm not sure she will survive even in a mental facility.

I would love to know what the assets are that have to be divided--other than sale proceeds from the house--

I can't stand to look at photos of Rusty Yates, even.

Jeana (DP)
08-03-2004, 12:02 PM
Texana, I hate to say this, but I have weird views on suicide that many don't agree with. Most say that God doesn't give us anything that we can't handle, but I don't agree with that. I think that there are mentally ill people that can't handle what's happening in their lives. They're in pain and they can't deal with it and choose to end their lives. I think that in some cases, where someone has a terminal illness, doctors should be allowed to assist them in suicide. I would love to see Andrea moved to a hospital to get the care she needs. However, even if that happens, she's always going to have to live with murdering five children. Personally, I'd rather die than go through life knowing I did that. I don't believe that Andrea will ever be free, whether she's in prison or a hospital. If she could die and God could forgive her and she could end up in Heaven with her children, wouldn't that be better than what she's going through now?

Texana
08-03-2004, 12:14 PM
One more note, Bookbakery: I think the only thing one could possibly place upon Andrea was that she did go along with having more children. She did do much better after being on medication after Noah was born, and so she knew the difference between how she felt when she was sick (and having the violent visions of stabbing someone) and how she felt when she was well.

Maybe she couldn't bear to disappoint Rusty by saying "No more" maybe it was too much her own dream as well that she couldn't give up.

And because Andrea was an RN, she had a better understanding that most laypeople about her condition. Maybe she felt that the doctors were too quick in their assessment--maybe she shrugged it off. I think it would be helpful for other women in the future if we could have some insight into her thinking at the time. Most likely she thought, "Well, I'll just take the medicine and it will get fixed just like this last time."

Also, I am not blaming Andrea entirely for not participating in therapy and not taking her medicine. Maybe she was so angry with Rusty but couldn't admit that. Maybe she didn't talk because she refused to believe she needed therapy of any kind. All I am saying is, I think she would be a danger to herself if she was not in a structured environment. Either her anger or her denial was so deeply rooted that she wasn't able to participate in part of the cure. Or she was too doped up--she was on very high dosages to get results. Again, should have been obvious that Andrea was very, very sick and not with something that could be cured like strep throat with a few pills.

Oh, and Rusty used her "not talking" as an excuse not to take her to therapy. I still think he should have been brought up on child endangerment. He still doesn't take any responsibility, though, he just blames the doctors.

gatetrekker44
08-13-2004, 12:10 AM
:sick: Rusty should have been charged with child neglect, child endangerment, and gross negligence. He KNEW how sick Andrea truly was-why else were family memebers coming to stay with her when he was at work?????He left for work even though the family member WAS NOT THERE-so he is(in my book)culpable for the deaths of his children. :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar
As far as Andrea goes, her history of post-partum PSYCHOSIS(lets be very clear here-this is a very serious mental illness) is not to be confused or compared with post-partum depression and was not taken seriously enough by some of the mental-health professionals who were treating her-and they too bear some responsibility for the tragic events that occurred. Andrea needs intensive, long-term treatment and not to EVER get prgenant again! And any woman out there who even considers bearing a child for Rusty should take one look at the vacant eyes of Andrea and run for the hills or submit themselves for ECT(electric shock therapy)!!!! :bang:

BirdieBoo
08-13-2004, 04:03 AM
:sick: Rusty should have been charged with child neglect, child endangerment, and gross negligence. He KNEW how sick Andrea truly was-why else were family memebers coming to stay with her when he was at work?????He left for work even though the family member WAS NOT THERE-so he is(in my book)culpable for the deaths of his children. :behindbar :behindbar :behindbar
As far as Andrea goes, her history of post-partum PSYCHOSIS(lets be very clear here-this is a very serious mental illness) is not to be confused or compared with post-partum depression and was not taken seriously enough by some of the mental-health professionals who were treating her-and they too bear some responsibility for the tragic events that occurred. Andrea needs intensive, long-term treatment and not to EVER get prgenant again! And any woman out there who even considers bearing a child for Rusty should take one look at the vacant eyes of Andrea and run for the hills or submit themselves for ECT(electric shock therapy)!!!! :bang:
I agree. What's even worse is that although Andrea thinks the children are still alive, Rusty the religious man now thinks that he is single. He has been dating according to other sources I have read.

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:17 AM
Houston AP Breaking News - No More info Available - Will Provide when it comes in! :banghead:

This is Awful!

http://www.chron.com/

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:24 AM
For those of you who dont remember - this is the woman who drowned her 4 children and then methodically wrapped them in blankets and laid them out on her bed while her husband was away at work!

peggy
01-06-2005, 10:25 AM
Houston AP Breaking News - No More info Available - Will Provide when it comes in! :banghead:

This is Awful!

http://www.chron.com/

WOW, this is huge! Thanks for breaking news...

Casshew
01-06-2005, 10:27 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:27 AM
This is wonderful news. If Andrea Yates doesn't qualify as being criminally insane, they need to throw that defense out the window. Hopefully, she'll be sent to a psychiatric hospital for life. Prison for her was NOT right!!!

kato
01-06-2005, 10:28 AM
Houston AP Breaking News - No More info Available - Will Provide when it comes in! :banghead:

This is Awful!

http://www.chron.com/


Oh crap! Instead of being in prison she'll probably be sent to a state mental hospital like Rusk. I know the woman is sick BUT she sure wasn't too out of it to call 911 and fess up to what she did. If you're so messed up you're not gonna have the presence of mind to call the cops. She knew what she did was wrong. JMO Sorry, I'm just a hard *ss when it comes to killing kids. Especially 5 at one time mind you!

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:30 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

I am hearing that the State will file for a retrial and ask the court of appeals to review - IF IF they do not rehear it - goes back to the original pre-trial phase. Something about an expert witness testifying that she is totally sane - and prejudicing the jury or something - details are quite sketchy... She will not be going home anytime soon though.

englishleigh
01-06-2005, 10:31 AM
Not sure where to post this, so I will start here and it can be moved if needed. Andrea Yates' conviction for drowning her 5 children has just been overturned, by reason of insanity. A three-judge panel in TX has decided to give her a new trial...they believe she was insane at the time of the murders.

Casshew
01-06-2005, 10:32 AM
Hr husband supports her, right? I wonder how he is doing.. did he divorce her..anyone know?

TexMex
01-06-2005, 10:32 AM
She'll get a new trial. The court said the DA expert Park Dietz used an example of a Law and Order episode that never aired in his testimony.

O/T and I'll move it in a bit :D

Txswthrt5
01-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Hr husband supports her, right? I wonder how he is doing.. did he divorce her..anyone know?


I think he was in the process of trying to divorce her recently - Was remarrying or something - I will find out

kato
01-06-2005, 10:33 AM
Hr husband supports her, right? I wonder how he is doing.. did he divorce her..anyone know?


Yes, he does support her. He was on a show a couple months ago. (don't remember which one). He has filed for divorce.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:34 AM
There's a thread in the parking lot too!!!

MrsMush99
01-06-2005, 10:34 AM
Will she get out of jail now? On Bail? I can't say I'm surprised.

Miss Daisey
01-06-2005, 10:37 AM
Just heard that too. Likely she'll be found guilty again in a second trial that sentences her to a mental hospital......where she'll be released someday.

Rusty has divorced her, I read

IMO

jamesbrown
01-06-2005, 10:38 AM
She'll get a new trial. The court said the DA expert Park Dietz used an example of a Law and Order episode that never aired in his testimony.

O/T and I'll move it in a bit :D

I never saw a more insane person in my entire life! She deserves a new trial.

lisag
01-06-2005, 10:41 AM
I am not sure how I feel about this... She was obviously sick, but.... I dunno... All I can think of is those poor babies and how scared they must have been.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:42 AM
No. The prosecutor has to decide what his next move will be. He can appeal this decision. If that fails, he must decide whether to retry her or not. I'm sure she'll remain in prision pending the decisions and/or the new trial. I hope that she's sentenced to a mental institution where she should have been all along!

Here's an article from the Dallas Morning News:


Andrea Yates HOUSTON - A state appeals court has overturned the capital murder convictions against Andrea Yates and ordered a new trial in the drownings of her children.

The Texas First Court of Appeals issued its ruling in Houston Thursday in a 12-page opinion signed by court Justice Sam Nuchia.

A three-judge panel found that the Harris County trial jury might have been prejudiced against Yates by the false testimony of a prosecution expert.

Park Dietz testified he consulted on an episode of the NBC show "Law and Order" about a woman with postpartum depression acquitted by reason of insanity in the drowning of her children. It was later revealed that no such program existed.

The Houston mother was serving a life sentence for the 2001 drownings of three of her five children. All five children were drowned in a bathtub at the family's home.

www.dallasnews.com

NewMom2003
01-06-2005, 10:45 AM
This is wonderful news. If Andrea Yates doesn't qualify as being criminally insane, they need to throw that defense out the window. Hopefully, she'll be sent to a psychiatric hospital for life. Prison for her was NOT right!!!

I couldn't agree more! This is great news, imo, she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital, not prison. I remember having this overwhelming feeling of sadness when she was convicted and I'm happy that the conviction has been overturned.

Yes, what she did was horrible and unspeakable, but the woman was sick for years and needed help badly. It's always been my opinion that her husband, Rusty Yates, should be the one in prison. He knew for years that his wife was sick and it got worse with each pregnancy. He never got her the help she needed (imo).

And and I agree with you Cass. This case isn't like the Susan Smith case at all. SS knew exactly what she was doing to her children and I hope she rots in jail for the rest of her miserable life. :furious:

TexMex
01-06-2005, 10:45 AM
I never saw a more insane person in my entire life! She deserves a new trial.


I wish they'd put Ol' Rusty Yates on trial with her this time :banghead:
The man found her in a bathroom with a knife to her neck then gets her pregnant a couple of more times :mad:

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 10:47 AM
There are threads about this in both the JURY room and the parking lot.

izzyB
01-06-2005, 10:47 AM
i know she did a horrible thing, but i too believe she was completely insane at the time. she has been hospitalized recently (within the last 3 months or so) due to her mental health, and her husband has divorced her. i hope she can finally be removed from jail and admitted full time to a hospital to get the help this poor woman needs.

TexMex
01-06-2005, 10:54 AM
Appeals court overturns the murder conviction against Andrea Yates


AP report:

By The Associated Press

(01/06/05 - HOUSTON) A state appeals court has overturned the capital murder convictions against Andrea Yates and ordered a new trial in the drownings of her children.

The Texas First Court of Appeals issued its ruling in Houston today in a 12-page opinion signed by court Justice Sam Nuchia.

A three-judge panel found that the Harris County trial jury might have been prejudiced against Yates by the false testimony of a prosecution expert.

Park Dietz testified he consulted on an episode of the N-B-C T-V show "Law and Order" about a woman with postpartum depression acquitted by reason of insanity in the drowning of her children. It was later revealed that no such program existed.

The Houston mother was serving a life sentence for the 2001 drownings of three of her five children. All five children were drowned in a bathtub at the family's home.

kk's mom
01-06-2005, 10:54 AM
I don't know where to post this. I just read that Andrea Yates murder conviction was overturned. She's getting out?????????????????

Love_Mama
01-06-2005, 10:56 AM
YIPPIE!

I couldn't be happier. Whatever happen's.........she'll probably be put in a Mental Unit........somewhere. IT's about time! That poor woman.

Here's FOX news on it. You don't have to subscribe!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143508,00.html

And here's the background.......story. The Case
http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxooooooooooooo
mama

Rachael
01-06-2005, 10:57 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:


I agree. Susan Smith did it for completely selfish reasons. Andrea has major psychological problems and should be in an hospital for a long time.

luthersmama
01-06-2005, 10:58 AM
I agree about Rusty. Remember some of the details of their lives before the killings? They lived in a SCHOOL BUS for a while! And he insisted they she home school all of the kids. The stress on that woman, who was so obviously very, very sick, must have been horrible. (Homeschooling is fine with me, but the person doing it has to really WANT to do it.) She will never get her children back and will live in agony for the rest of her life. She should at least get the medical help she needs in an appropriate setting instead of being in prison.

lisag
01-06-2005, 10:59 AM
I agree about her husband too - how can he, knowing that she is sick, leave the chidlren in her care all alone ?? She should have been helped a long time ago.

tuppence
01-06-2005, 11:02 AM
I agree. Susan Smith did it for completely selfish reasons. Andrea has major psychological problems and should be in an hospital for a long time.


completely agree. I thought she was a poster case for the insanity plea and needing to be locked up in a hospital not a jail.

Rachael
01-06-2005, 11:04 AM
I agree about her husband too - how can he, knowing that she is sick, leave the chidlren in her care all alone ?? She should have been helped a long time ago.


His mother came to the house every morning. Andrea only had the kids alone for like 1/2 hour in the morning. Rusty's mother was staying in a hotel I believe (she lives in a different state possibly FL or NC) to help Andrea with the children until she got better. I am not saying Rusty is a great guy. He definetly wore the pants in the relationship. I read the book. Andrea was getting help. She was even in the hospital a few times. I don't think anyone realized the severity of her illness or her own family would have been there helping her too.

lcookster
01-06-2005, 11:05 AM
I hated what she did but I always believed she was desperately mentally ill. Her severe post partum depression was not new news, as she had suffered mightily after previous births. I blame her husband, quite frankly. I think he and the family ignored the severity of her situation. I believe she had a major psychotic break. I don't believe she will ever be able to live in society again.

Rachael
01-06-2005, 11:06 AM
I hated what she did but I always believed she was desperately mentally ill. Her severe post partum depression was not new news, as she had suffered mightily after previous births. I blame her husband, quite frankly. I think he and the family ignored the severity of her situation. I believe she had a major psychotic break. I don't believe she will ever be able to live in society again.


I also do not believe she will ever be able to live in society again. I am sure she is suicidal.

cecilia
01-06-2005, 11:08 AM
I hope she has lots of friends and family and therapists who can keep her free of another Rusty - one more example of narcissist - "can you do what I say without question?" - terrifying.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:08 AM
Just because someone suffers from a mental illness does NOT mean they do not know right from wrong.

She waits until her husband leaves and kills her children (methodically and brutally) before her mother-in-law shows up and then calls the police and her husband.

She knew what she was doing, she knew it was wrong, and hopefully she will stay in prison where she richly deserves to be.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:12 AM
Just because someone suffers from a mental illness does NOT mean they do not know right from wrong.

She waits until her husband leaves and kills her children (methodically and brutally) before her mother-in-law shows up and then calls the police and her husband.

She knew what she was doing, she knew it was wrong, and hopefully she will stay in prison where she richly deserves to be.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:16 AM
I don't know where to post this. I just read that Andrea Yates murder conviction was overturned. She's getting out?????????????????

I highly doubt it.

She deserves to be in prison and I imagine a second jury (if it even comes to that) will send her there.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness DOES NOT MEAN they cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

She is a cold-blooded murderer of the worst kind.

TexMex
01-06-2005, 11:19 AM
She was never tried for the killings of two of the kids.
The convictions were for drowning three of them.


HOUSTON (AP) - Andrea Yates' capital murder convictions for drowning her children were overturned Thursday by an appeals court, which ruled a prosecution expert witness gave false testimony at her trial.

Yates' lawyers had argued at a hearing last month before a three-judge panel of the First Court of Appeals in Houston that psychiatrist Park Dietz was wrong when he said he consulted on an episode of the TV show "Law and Order" involving a woman found innocent by reason of insanity for drowning her children.

After jurors found Yates guilty, attorneys in the case and jurors learned no such episode existed.

"We conclude that there is a reasonable likelihood that Dr. Dietz's false testimony could have affected the judgment of the jury," the court ruled. "We further conclude that Dr. Dietz's false testimony affected the substantial rights of appellant."

Jurors in 2002 sentenced Yates to life in prison in the 2001 deaths of three of her children. She was not tried in the deaths of the other two.

peggy
01-06-2005, 11:20 AM
Matt (Today program) just spoke with her mother and defense attorney--mom said she last spoke with Andrea three weeks ago and she is "much better." Apparently she was transferred to another facility few months ago and put on different medications and no longer on suicidal watch. When Matt asked mom if Andrea was a "changed person", she responded that she felt remorse but was "at peace." Defense attorney said he was surprised but not shocked about decision, but something about testimony from expert witness was shown to be not accurate and without same testimony at new trial, prosecution has weaker case.

Love_Mama
01-06-2005, 11:21 AM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

I could not agee with you more Cass.......you're absolutely right.

His the story............read it again all of you!

http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxooooooo
mama

cynder
01-06-2005, 11:21 AM
Since Andrea was convicted there have been at least 3 mothers in Texas who killed their children (all suffering post partum depression) found not guilty by reason of insanity and none of them had the documented long-term history of severe mental illness that Andrea did. This was not justice - more like a lynch mob. Andrea is so sick that she borders on catatonic without meds. Her husband Rusty "we'll have as many children as God gives us" Yates is the one who belongs in prison, not Andrea. Despite worsening depression wih each child and the advice of Drs he continued to insist Andrea have more babies - and be responsible for the care and education of all the children without help.
Andrea is a very sick woman who needs lifetime care in an appropriate institution - not prison.
And yes husband Rusty is in the process of divorcing her because he wishes to move on and remarry and have more children. Since he is free to do whatever he wants hopefully he will choose a spouse who does not suffer from depression this time because it is apparent he plans to father another large family.
Andrea deserves a 2nd chance at proper justice - She deserves to pay for what she did and she should be confined for life but I don't feel she belongs in prison.

Angie
01-06-2005, 11:33 AM
I highly doubt it.

She deserves to be in prison and I imagine a second jury (if it even comes to that) will send her there.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness DOES NOT MEAN they cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

She is a cold-blooded murderer of the worst kind.

I disagree, but that's my opinion....

poco
01-06-2005, 11:38 AM
I am not sure how I feel about this... She was obviously sick, but.... I dunno... All I can think of is those poor babies and how scared they must have been.

I'm with ya there Lisa....... What those poor children must have been thinking. Bless their poor little hearts!!!

I really don't care what they do with her as long as she is locked away forever.

The only thing I can think of is there were signs before all of this happened - what went wrong? I tend to blame the husband to a degree.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 11:45 AM
I tend to blame the husband to a degree.

I blame the husband too, but she was the one who planned and actually carried out the methodical and brutal murders.

I will say it again. Just because someone suffers from mental disease does not mean they do not know right from wrong.

Insanity is a fact question -- that's the kind our system lets a jury resolve . . . and her jury resolved it.

A second one will as well.

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 12:19 PM
I followed this case as well. It was such a horrible thing to do. She apparently knew what she had done for she called the police and confessed to the killings. This is one case where I didn't think the death peanalty was deserved. I think she should have been locked away in a mental hospital.

I also don't understand why she was only convicted for 3 counts of murder when she actually murdered all 5 of her children.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 12:23 PM
In the first place, the conviction was overturned because of a problem with one of the expert witnesses. Not because the appellate court thinks she's mentally ill. Secondly, she is NOT going to be released from prision. She's still a danger to herself and others. They will most likely retry her, but she'll spend the time either in a jail/prison of some sort or a mental hospital. Since she had a clear and long history of mental issues, its my wish that the prosecutor will agree to having her committed to a mental institution for the remainder of her life. While she may not be suicidal at this moment due to the medication she's on, she has, at least three times in prison already, either talked about suicide or tried it.

As another poster said, since Yates' trial, at least three mothers who murdered their children have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Two of these women had absolutely NO history of mental illness whatsoever. If Yates doesn't fit the definition of mentally insane, its worthless in my opinion. I don't believe she should ever be free to walk amongst us, but neither should she be in prison either.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 12:24 PM
I also don't understand why she was only convicted for 3 counts of murder when she actually murdered all 5 of her children.''

Doll, its not uncommon for the prosecution seeking the death penalty to leave an "out." Had she been acquitted of the first three murders, they would have another chance by trying her for the other two murders. She was eligible for capital punishment both times.

raisincharlie
01-06-2005, 12:55 PM
I wish they'd put Ol' Rusty Yates on trial with her this time :banghead:
The man found her in a bathroom with a knife to her neck then gets her pregnant a couple of more times :mad:
Absolutely ! It should have happened the first time around.

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 01:12 PM
''

Doll, its not uncommon for the prosecution seeking the death penalty to leave an "out." Had she been acquitted of the first three murders, they would have another chance by trying her for the other two murders. She was eligible for capital punishment both times.
Thanks for clearning this up for me, Jeana ;)

kato
01-06-2005, 01:13 PM
Just because someone suffers from a mental illness does NOT mean they do not know right from wrong.

She waits until her husband leaves and kills her children (methodically and brutally) before her mother-in-law shows up and then calls the police and her husband.

She knew what she was doing, she knew it was wrong, and hopefully she will stay in prison where she richly deserves to be.


Sleuth:

Don't know if you read my post but I totally agree.

kk's mom
01-06-2005, 02:13 PM
I highly doubt it.

She deserves to be in prison and I imagine a second jury (if it even comes to that) will send her there.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness DOES NOT MEAN they cannot differentiate between right and wrong.

She is a cold-blooded murderer of the worst kind.

I have to say I agree with you Sleuth and I hope I don't offend anyone here as I respect all of your opinions. This is just my personal opinion. She may have some problems upstairs but she methodically planned out the killings, one by one. From running the bath water to calling in or dragging in her children to drown them. When I read about the oldest one coming in after she called him in and then him realizing what she was doing and then him running to get away from her and her chasing him around the house, it made me ill and to this day I still cry when I think of all those children being murdered by their own mother. She knew what she was doing - mental illness or no mental illness. I don't sympathize with this woman whatsover. She killed her own children. Whether they lock her up in a mental institution or return her to prison, I really don't care - but as long as she never takes a step outside of the bounds, that's fine with me. As far as Randy goes - he was an ignorant, selfish, controlling husband who should have seen the warning signs long before this happend.

kato
01-06-2005, 02:22 PM
Another point to add that she knew what she was doing was wrong.

Besides calling 911 she also called Rusty at work and told him he needed to come home now. He asked was something wrong with the kids and she said yes.

Gabby
01-06-2005, 02:33 PM
If you look at the pictures of Andrea when she was picked up/when she was on trial/look at they eyes ,you can tell by looking she was mentally ill. She suffered severe depression after the birth of each child, and Rusty kept right on getting her pregnant...he is MORE to blame for those children dying than Andrea...she was ILL regardless of the fact she planned and carried out the murders...she wasn't thinking rationally...no one who hasn't experienced depression has no way of judging how damaging the effects of it are. She was 'hearing voices' -- she was unable to reason the difference between truth and fantasy... She deserves to be where she can get help not in prison...I followed this case when it happened, and always thought there was a miscarriage of justice in her case. Someone should 'fix' Rusty before he reproduces and puts another woman through having as many kids as God will alllow....

luthersmama
01-06-2005, 02:43 PM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

Mrs Jones
01-06-2005, 04:13 PM
Overturned on what basis? psychological problems? maybe they will give her a new trial or commit her to a psychiatric hospital.

Personally, I know what she did was absolutely horrific, but I think she is sick in the head and should be committed. Not like that b!tch Susan Smith who knew exacty what she was doing. :hand:

I'm listening right now Cass. That is the intention, to get her released to a mental facility. It really sucks to be Andrea. Now don't get me started on Susan Smith. My in-laws live not to far from Union, and her ex-husband works in the town they live in. People mostly mind their own business about it and let him live his life the best he can. I hope she dies in prison and burns in hell. No, I think that she should be buried in a car that is driven into the dark, murky, muddy waters, and left there forever. I would love to meet her slutty little southern ass face to face.

Bhodirasta
01-06-2005, 04:26 PM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

I COMPLETELY agree with everything you just said. All of it. Especially the nip and tuck... LOLLL

Miss Daisey
01-06-2005, 04:30 PM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

Weeeee Hooooo ! Couldn't have said it better, myself !

Great post, luthersmama ! I totally agree !

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 04:35 PM
If you look at the pictures of Andrea when she was picked up/when she was on trial/look at they eyes ,you can tell by looking she was mentally ill.
"They" say that your eyes are the windows to your soul.. She looked very ill. Her hair as well..

I think she wanted to kill her children before she actually did. I read this somewhere, and then she finally succeeded. The doctors had told them to stop having more kids so there was a problem here and this is why I also think her husband should take some of this blame..

Miss Daisey
01-06-2005, 04:41 PM
I think Rusty is culpible too, Paperdoll. Unfortunately, there's no statues in the law, as yet, that make fathers responsible for allowing his mentaly ill wife to have the complete control of his children. That only happens once he's divorced her and wants out of the child support.

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 05:02 PM
Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.


The jury was instructed by the judge before they received the case for deliberations that no such episode from Law and Order existed.

She was not convicted on perjured testimony since the jury was made aware of the error.

luthersmama
01-06-2005, 05:09 PM
The jury was instructed by the judge before they received the case for deliberations that no such episode from Law and Order existed.

She was not convicted on perjured testimony since the jury was made aware of the error.


As the saying goes, "You can't un-ring the bell". There is no excuse for a prosecution witness to lie, especially in a death penalty case. Mistakes might be forgiveable, but not an out-and-out lie. It casts doubt on his entire opinion. He should be spanked. :slap:

Sleuth
01-06-2005, 05:27 PM
As the saying goes, "You can't un-ring the bell". There is no excuse for a prosecution witness to lie, especially in a death penalty case. Mistakes might be forgiveable, but not an out-and-out lie. It casts doubt on his entire opinion. He should be spanked. :slap:

I find that I am incorrect. The jury was not informed that the episode didn't exist until the penalty phase. I still agree with the prosecution that the "mistake", as Doctor Dietz calls it (this testimony was elicited by the defense, not the the prosecution!), was not material to the case and there was plenty of other evidence that Yates planned to kill her children.

The jury found her legally sane at the time of her actions. I have no doubt that she was. She knew what she was doing and she deserves to rot in prison.

I also have no doubt that if it gets that far, another jury will convict her again.

But the full 12 panel appeals court still has to hear this case.

Olivia77
01-06-2005, 05:45 PM
Matt (Today program) just spoke with her mother and defense attorney--mom said she last spoke with Andrea three weeks ago and she is "much better." Apparently she was transferred to another facility few months ago and put on different medications and no longer on suicidal watch. When Matt asked mom if Andrea was a "changed person", she responded that she felt remorse but was "at peace." Defense attorney said he was surprised but not shocked about decision, but something about testimony from expert witness was shown to be not accurate and without same testimony at new trial, prosecution has weaker case.
They say "remorseful", which shows at least a current consciousness of guilt, and above all, she's at peace? That's disgusting. :sick:

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 05:47 PM
THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT YATES AND THE DEATH PENALTY. AFTER THAT, I’VE POSTED INFORMATION ABOUT TWO WOMEN AND ONE MAN WHO MURDERED THEIR CHILDREN AND WERE FOUND NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY. I CANNOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE WOMEN AND ANDREA YATES. (Sorry for the all caps, but I was trying to differentiate my post from the material copied and pasted)!!!
I. Misconceptions muddle insanity defense debate, law lecturer says
The debate over the insanity defense in the United States is clouded by public misconceptions -- about mental illness itself, and about what happens to defendants acquitted by reason of insanity, according to attorney and University of Texas professor Jennifer S. Bard.
"Jurors tend to imagine that such defendants will simply walk away" -- which is understandable, given that juries in many states are not told what will happen to people acquitted by reason of insanity, Bard said during an Oct. 17 lecture at Pitt's law school.
In fact, "the actual statistics show that defendants who were found not guilty by reason of insanity actually spent more time confined to institutions than people who were convicted of crimes and served sentences," she said.
Bard, an assistant professor and research director at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas, delivered the third Mark A. Nordenberg Lecture in Law and Psychiatry. The law school and the Center for Bioethics and Health Law presented the lecture.
Bard cited three other common myths about the insanity defense:
* Such defenses are common. Fact: A "big body of research" shows that the insanity defense is raised in just 5-14 percent of homicide cases, she said.
* Insanity defense criteria are so complicated that defense attorneys easily can fool juries into acquitting clients. "Actually, there is some really interesting research showing that the vast majority of successful insanity defenses come in bench trials. It's primarily judges who are most sympathetic to insanity defenses," Bard pointed out.
* The insanity defense usually is used in murder trials. Fact: Murder cases account for fewer than one-third of insanity defenses, Bard said. More often, Bard said, the insanity defense figures into trials for minor offenses such as shoplifting and assaulting a police officer -- unfortunate but predictable occurrences when mentally ill offenders are repeatedly convicted and released, rather than being treated for the root causes of their anti-social behavior, argued Bard.
* * *

Ironically, she noted, prison inmates are the only Americans who enjoy a Constitutional right (under the Eighth Amendment forbidding cruel and unusual punishment) to health care -- not that mentally ill prisoners necessarily receive appropriate care, Bard said.
The key question in the insanity defense controversy, according to Bard, is this: Do Americans believe that individuals can be so mentally ill that they are not responsible for their actions?
Her answer: Not entirely, and certainly not in Texas.
Bard recounted the case of Andrea Yates, the Texas woman convicted of murder (but spared the death penalty) last March for drowning her five children.
Yates "was suffering from schizophrenia and depression well before she had any children. Having children just exacerbated a bad situation," Bard said.
Two weeks before the killings, Yates's husband Rusty desperately sought treatment for his wife. Recognizing Andrea's symptoms of severe postpartum depression from previous pregnancies, he pleaded unsuccessfully with Andrea's doctors to put her back on anti-depressants following the birth of their fifth child.
On the day that she drowned her children one by one in a bathtub, Andrea Yates was not taking any medications, nor had she been prescribed any since her previous bouts with depression and schizophrenia.
* * *
"Research has shown that once you get a panel of jurors qualified as death penalty jurors -- that is, jurors who say they would be willing to consider the death penalty -- you automatically have a group of jurors who are highly suspicious of the insanity defense," said Bard.
For Yates's attorneys to mount a successful insanity defense under Texas's strict "knowledge-based" criteria, they had to convince the jury either that Yates did not know what she was doing when she killed her children, or that she didn't know that it was wrong. "Irresistible impulse" because of mental illness is not an accepted defense in Texas and many other states.
* * *
Bard argued: "I think it would be an important change to the insanity defense for there to be an acknowledgement that it is possible to have knowledge but not to be able to do anything about it. And that it is possible, just as it is possible to have degrees of kidney disease or heart disease, to have degrees of mental illness that affect the thought process and [that] should be taken into consideration while assessing criminal responsibility."
* * *
But a majority of states, including Pennsylvania, have replaced the strict "knowledge-based" criteria for insanity defenses with the hybrid standard of "guilty but mentally ill."
"This standard is very satisfactory to jurors because it acknowledges that a person committed a crime, but it also recognizes that they were mentally ill when they did it," Bard said.
However, the standard defies logic, according to Bard. "If we believe as a society that there are people who, because of mental illness, are not responsible for their actions, then it doesn't make sense to create a category of people who are mentally ill but are responsible for their actions anyway," she said.
* * *
-- Bruce Steele
http://www.pitt.edu/utimes/issues/35/021024/10.html

Woman not guilty by reason of insanity in drowning deaths of kids
Lisa Ann Diaz, 33, charged with capital murder, had pleaded innocent by reason of insanity in the deaths of daughters Kamryn, 3, and Briana, 5, in the family's home last September. She faced a mandatory life prison sentence if convicted.
The jury deliberated seven hours over two days before returning a verdict.
Lisa Ann Diaz's husband told jurors that she would never have harmed her children out of spite -- the argument submitted by prosecutors.
"If Lisa had been in her right mind," Angel Diaz testified, "this would never have happened."
Angel Diaz called police minutes after coming home from work to find the two girls naked on a bed in his three-bedroom house. He testified that he found his wife in the garage "rather pale, and a glazed look on her face."
He told authorities his wife said "something bad happened to the kids" and that she "didn't want them to suffer."
Diaz said his wife's list of physical problems grew dramatically after a flu shot in 2002, including fears of having a thyroid condition, ringworm, diabetes, lupus and tuberculosis. Defense attorney Darlina Crowder documented 180 doctor visits by the woman to her physician and specialists over five years.
Diaz said he eventually became fed up when his wife's health fears spread to belief that her daughters were experiencing the same troubles.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/state/081204_APstate_drowningdeaths.html

Mom who said she killed on God's orders acquitted
Jury rules she was insane when she bludgeoned her 3 children
(CNN) -- A jury acquitted a Texas mother of killing two of her sons and seriously injuring the third after determining she was insane at the time.
As the verdicts were read, Deanna Laney's face quivered, but the 39-year-old shed no tears.
Laney would have received an automatic life sentence had she been convicted of capital murder.
Instead, she will immediately be taken for evaluation to a maximum security state psychiatric hospital, where she could stay as long as 40 years.
Laney admitted bashing her three children in the heads with rocks. She said God told her to do so.
Laney was charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of 8-year-old Joshua and 6-year-old Luke, and a single count of injury to a child for 15-month old Aaron, who survived the attacks on Mother's Day 2003.
Prosecutor Matt Bingham has said Aaron's vision is impaired and he will never be able to live on his own.
Bingham chose not to seek the death penalty in the case.
"I don't think anybody in this room or anybody in that courtroom wasn't touched by the evidence in this case," the Smith County district attorney told reporters after the verdicts.
"For the rest of my life I'll remember Aaron, I'll remember Joshua, I'll remember Luke. I'll never forget what happened to them that day," he said.
"We have believed as strongly as we could believe that our client was insane at the time of the events," Files said.
Files said in court that Laney believed God had told her the world was going to end and "she had to get her house in order," which included killing her children.
"The dilemma she faced is a terrible one for a mother," Files told the jury. "Does she follow what she believes to be God's will, or does she turn her back on God?"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/children.slain/

Texas woman finds son, 5, dead in oven

BEAUMONT, Texas (AP) — The body of a 5-year-old boy was found in an oven at his home Friday, and his mother's boyfriend was charged with capital murder. The suspect, Kenneth Pierott, 27, previously had been found not guilty by reason of insanity in the 1996 slaying of his handicapped sister.
Pierott was arraigned and jailed Friday night in the death of Tre-Deven Odoms.
The child's mother, Kathy Jo Odoms, found her son's body in the oven Friday morning, Justice of the Peace Paul Brown said. The burners on the stovetop were turned on, the oven was not, he said.
The boy had no visible injuries, Brown said. Autopsy results were expected Monday.
Odoms told police she woke up Friday morning because she was hot and smelled gas, The Beaumont Enterprise reported in its online edition Friday. She found the burners were on and turned them off. She discovered the boy's body after Pierott left the house.
Pierott spent six months in state mental hospitals beginning in 1998, after he was found not guilty by reason of insanity in the December 1996 beating death of his 25-year-old sister, who had cerebral palsy.
Court documents obtained by the Enterprise show Pierott hit his sister in the head with a metal dumbbell. He was later diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1119302/posts

PaperDoll
01-06-2005, 05:49 PM
The jury found her legally sane at the time of her actions. I have no doubt that she was. She knew what she was doing
I agree with this. She killed her kids one by one. I do believe that she is mentally ill and needs a lot of help, however, if she was that sick, why kill the kids and not the husband. Actually, she should have just ran away from it all on her own to try and get more help for herself, or she should have called someone when she had the urge to kill her kids to help stop her from doing so. From what I've read she tried to kill them another time but didn't.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 06:24 PM
I agree with this. She killed her kids one by one. I do believe that she is mentally ill and needs a lot of help, however, if she was that sick, why kill the kids and not the husband. Actually, she should have just ran away from it all on her own to try and get more help for herself, or she should have called someone when she had the urge to kill her kids to help stop her from doing so. From what I've read she tried to kill them another time but didn't.


I wish she would have just done herself in. However, you're asking about a lot of "why nots" and that just doesn't work when you're dealing with someone whose mentally ill. She felt she was a bad parent. She felt that her children basically didn't stand a chance of becoming good people. She felt that they only way they were guaranteed to enter Heaven is if she killed them before they sinned. Of course to you and I, that sounds wacked. However, to her sick mind, it made sense.

My problem is with the wording of the law itself. In that long post above, it talks about other jurisdictions allowing defendants to claim "guilty by reason of insanity." Other states allow defendants' doctors to prove that the mental illness was the SOLE reason for the defendant's actions and is, thereby, guilty by reason of insanity.

Another problem is that most people don't know, and the state isn't allowed to tell juries, that the defendant doesn't get to walk amongst the population. That being in the institution with a bunch of other mentally ill individuals is far worse than prison ever could be. They can't know that a judge will request dozens of tests to be conducted of the "inmate/patient" before even the smallest amounts of freedom are given.

The bottom line is that we ALL agree that Andrea Yates is and was mentally ill and if not for that, she never would have murdered the children. I'm all for locking her up, but it should be in a hospital where she can receive the medications and therapy she needs. After all, when she does take her medication and remembers what she's done, she is so remorseful that she wants to kill herself. How can we possibly punish her more than that????

Let's face it, not all mentally ill people were born that way. Sometimes they suffer from breakdowns. It could happen to any one of us here. I would think you'd like for your friends and family members to be given a little bit of consideration should the worst happen to them and they become mentally ill.

Pepper
01-06-2005, 06:34 PM
I have to say I agree with you Sleuth and I hope I don't offend anyone here as I respect all of your opinions. This is just my personal opinion. She may have some problems upstairs but she methodically planned out the killings, one by one. From running the bath water to calling in or dragging in her children to drown them. When I read about the oldest one coming in after she called him in and then him realizing what she was doing and then him running to get away from her and her chasing him around the house, it made me ill and to this day I still cry when I think of all those children being murdered by their own mother. She knew what she was doing - mental illness or no mental illness. I don't sympathize with this woman whatsover. She killed her own children. Whether they lock her up in a mental institution or return her to prison, I really don't care - but as long as she never takes a step outside of the bounds, that's fine with me. As far as Randy goes - he was an ignorant, selfish, controlling husband who should have seen the warning signs long before this happend.I agree with you. She should never set foot outside a hospital or prison again. Even if she is *sick*, she is dangerous, and should never have the right to be free.

Furthermore both her and that worthless piece of crap husband of hers should be sterilized so that neither of them is responsible for bringing another helpless child into this world. They had their chance at parenting, and they FAILED! Let's not give them another chance!

ETA: I have no problem with her being in a mental institution for the rest of her days, but the problem with the insanity defense is (from my understanding) that if a panel of doctors decides that she is *cured* then she may be released. That should never happen, and if we can be guaranteed that it will never happen, then a hospital is OK with me. If there's even a slight change she will be given her freedom someday, then leave her in prison.

Bhodirasta
01-06-2005, 06:44 PM
Jeana,
THANKS for that interesting post! Facinating...
I did know this...

In fact, "the actual statistics show that defendants who were found not guilty by reason of insanity actually spent more time confined to institutions than people who were convicted of crimes and served sentences," she said.
Bard, an assistant professor and research director at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas, delivered the third Mark A. Nordenberg Lecture in Law and Psychiatry. The law school and the Center for Bioethics and Health Law presented the lecture.

I wish more people would realize this...

But I never thought about this...

"Research has shown that once you get a panel of jurors qualified as death penalty jurors -- that is, jurors who say they would be willing to consider the death penalty -- you automatically have a group of jurors who are highly suspicious of the insanity defense," said Bard.
For Yates's attorneys to mount a successful insanity defense under Texas's strict "knowledge-based" criteria, they had to convince the jury either that Yates did not know what she was doing when she killed her children, or that she didn't know that it was wrong. "Irresistible impulse" because of mental illness is not an accepted defense in Texas and many other states.


Now this is just obvious now that I think about it. Sad I think. I think it goes to show just how flawed the system can be when it comes to the DP and insanity.

An irresistable impulse can't be used?? What in the sam hill would you call what Andrea Yates did??

I also agree Jeana, that mental illness is a strange and confusing and under understood (is that gramatically legal?). We have much to learn about mental illness, and we won't gain any knowledge on the subject if the people that are suffering from this type of disease, are locked away in prison...

NewMom2003
01-06-2005, 06:51 PM
If you look at the pictures of Andrea when she was picked up/when she was on trial/look at they eyes ,you can tell by looking she was mentally ill. She suffered severe depression after the birth of each child, and Rusty kept right on getting her pregnant...he is MORE to blame for those children dying than Andrea...she was ILL regardless of the fact she planned and carried out the murders...she wasn't thinking rationally...no one who hasn't experienced depression has no way of judging how damaging the effects of it are. She was 'hearing voices' -- she was unable to reason the difference between truth and fantasy... She deserves to be where she can get help not in prison...I followed this case when it happened, and always thought there was a miscarriage of justice in her case. Someone should 'fix' Rusty before he reproduces and puts another woman through having as many kids as God will alllow....

:clap: I totally agree Gabby.

Pepper
01-06-2005, 07:01 PM
............. Someone should 'fix' Rusty before he reproduces and puts another woman through having as many kids as God will alllow....Someone should FIX both of them! They should not be allowed to breed again, EVER! Even if Andrea spends the rest of her days in some institution, there is no guarantee that she won't become pregnant again. Happens frequently in women's prisons and mental hospitals. She and Rusty both had one chance at parenting, and they miserably failed. Neither of them should have another chance to propogate their disgusting genes.

Jeana (DP)
01-06-2005, 07:04 PM
Someone should FIX both of them! They should not be allowed to breed again, EVER! Even if Andrea spends the rest of her days in some institution, there is no guarantee that she won't become pregnant again. Happens frequently in women's prisons and mental hospitals. She and Rusty both had one chance at parenting, and they miserably failed. Neither of them should have another chance to propogate their disgusting genes.


Even if the virtually impossible happens and Yates gets preggers again, I seriously doubt that they'll allow her to raise the child in prison or in a mental hospital. We're all outraged at the murder of her five children, but let's be realistic here.

Rusty, on the other hand, should be taken out back and shot. ;)

Pepper
01-06-2005, 07:45 PM
Even if the virtually impossible happens and Yates gets preggers again, I seriously doubt that they'll allow her to raise the child in prison or in a mental hospital. We're all outraged at the murder of her five children, but let's be realistic here.

Rusty, on the other hand, should be taken out back and shot. ;)

What's not being realistic? I don't want her getting pregnant even if the child is taken away. People incarcerated should not be allowed to reproduce! I'd allow anesthesia for Andrea, but not for Rusty!! :eek:

cecilia
01-06-2005, 10:28 PM
I followed this case and read the books and came away with the sense that Andrea could never find a way to just say NO to Rusty -- about the bus or the pregnancies or anything else -- mix that with some "religion" and it seems like you have the ingredients for mental illness if not everything you need to make an existing mental illness worse.

Since she was aware of her actions and their consequences, I always felt that all her anger and resentment toward Rusty and her own frustration with herself for not speaking up led her to this huge awful act of revenge.

What a tragic way to make your point...

Candlelight
01-06-2005, 10:34 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that Andrea Yates, a former RN, at one time a smart and beautiful young woman, was insane by ALL legal definitions prior to, during, and after the murders of her sweet babies by drowning.

She will be retried- and if the state of Texas convicts this woman and puts her back in prison to rot, then ALL the WORLD needs to protest.

Justice was denied Andrea, and her stupid ass of a husband didn't ever help her, support her or get her the help she needed. He just impregnated her over and over, at times making her live in an old school bus while he was making close to $100,000 a year.

I hope so much that Rutsy will have NO part in her retrial as a witness or anything else. His disdain for her is obvious
I saw a clip of the man on TV this AM and he was laughing his fool head off about Andrea. He said " I asked her once if she got out of prison, what would she do?" and as he SNEERED, he said " She said she wanted a pizza and a BATH.
Yes, Rustywhoshouldbecastrated, we know that she drowned those sweet babies.
You don't have to remind us.

To the family and friends of Andrea ( this excludes Rusty by all definitions):
I hope your daughter, friend, cousin, neighbor, and our collective sister will be helped by a humane sentence which gives her the intensive psychiatric help she needs for the rest of her life. I am sure that she will never be returned to society because of the enormity of her crime, but I want her to have good medical care by people who understand the disease process of schizophrenia. I am very sad about the many children she bore and killed. If our mental health system worked like it was intended to do, then her mental problems would have been aggressively treated involuntarily if needed. And she would have been put on birth control or sterilized for the protection of unborn, now dead, babies.

Texana
01-06-2005, 10:36 PM
Thanks, Jeana, for summarizing the other recent casese in Texas where women who killed their children and presented the same defense and very similiar actions were acquitted due to insanity.

Note that Deana Laney showed NO signs of mental illness to her family--none that they could discern. They were members of a charismatic church that included many things in their beliefs that can also be signs of mental illness, but overall Deana Laney was functioning normally to the outward eye. She had even invited her in-laws over for dinner the next day.

Andrea, on the other hand, was clearly mentally ill. She had been in and out of mental health facilities and had been on some powerful anti-psychotic meds. She wasn't even bathing or really feeding herself. Her in-laws were well aware as was anyone with any contact to the family--not that many people because Rusty kept them fairly isolated. In fact, one of Andrea's former nursing colleagues begged Rusty shortly before the horrible event to get help for Andrea.

We don't expect people with raging fevers such as, a patient with meningitis, to "get help" for themselves. But to expect people whose thinking is clearly disordered, and who in Andrea's case, are not even caring adequately for themselves, to "get help" for themselves? They can't think straight! They are mentally ill--and that means rational thought is gone. Period.

I don't think Andrea ever needs to be released from any facility, and Rusty should have been brought up on accessory charges, if she was guilty, so was he--at least of child endangerment.

He's probably hoping this won't affect the divorce papers he just filed.

And Dietz, whose testimony was the reason the verdict was overturned, is an idiot. He justified testifying that Yates was sane but Laney was insane, because Laney heard voices from "God," and Yates heard directions from "Satan," and therefore Yates should have known that the voices SHE heard were wrong. What the hell kind of crazy thinking is that? An person who hears voices is supposed to retain enough judgement to figure out which voice is the "good" one?

If anything, Laney was much more devious and "rational" than Yates. Her husband woke up as she was beating the toddler son with the rock. He heard the baby cry out, but Laney responded that everything was fine. She called 911, too. But she was acquitted by reason of insanity. Laney was also tried in a much smaller venue, with a jury pool more familiar with her, her family, church, etc. Yates was tried in Harris County with a huge geographical size--her jurors probably went near Yates' home area only as a drive-through on I-45 freeway, going to Galveston Beach.

Andrea should never be released from a secure facility, but she was insane. Overturning the verdict was the right thing to do.

Texana
01-06-2005, 10:38 PM
Candlelight:

Amen! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Jack
01-06-2005, 11:00 PM
I have to say I agree with you Sleuth and I hope I don't offend anyone here as I respect all of your opinions. This is just my personal opinion. She may have some problems upstairs but she methodically planned out the killings, one by one. From running the bath water to calling in or dragging in her children to drown them. When I read about the oldest one coming in after she called him in and then him realizing what she was doing and then him running to get away from her and her chasing him around the house, it made me ill and to this day I still cry when I think of all those children being murdered by their own mother. She knew what she was doing - mental illness or no mental illness. I don't sympathize with this woman whatsover. She killed her own children. Whether they lock her up in a mental institution or return her to prison, I really don't care - but as long as she never takes a step outside of the bounds, that's fine with me. As far as Randy goes - he was an ignorant, selfish, controlling husband who should have seen the warning signs long before this happend.


That's the worst part for me too. All of the children suffered, but the one who ran knowing he was going to die if his mother caught him just breaks my heart. I don't believe she was so out of it that she didn't know her actions were wrong. I think she belongs in prison, and if she is as sick as some think she is then it wont matter to her where she is. Problem is now there is a very good chance she will join us out here in society, free to do as she pleases. She could be having babies in a few years.

cajun
01-07-2005, 12:27 AM
I couldn't agree more! This is great news, imo, she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital, not prison. I remember having this overwhelming feeling of sadness when she was convicted and I'm happy that the conviction has been overturned.

Yes, what she did was horrible and unspeakable, but the woman was sick for years and needed help badly. It's always been my opinion that her husband, Rusty Yates, should be the one in prison. He knew for years that his wife was sick and it got worse with each pregnancy. He never got her the help she needed (imo).

And and I agree with you Cass. This case isn't like the Susan Smith case at all. SS knew exactly what she was doing to her children and I hope she rots in jail for the rest of her miserable life. :furious:
I so totally agree with you. Why would the woman in Dallas that bludgeoned(sp) her boys to death be found not guilty by reason of insanity and Yates not when it was obvious for years Andrea was mentally ill and spiraling downward. Rusty did deserve to be charged as an accessory.

Texana
01-07-2005, 12:42 AM
We were on vacation when this happened and I didn't sleep for two days. It was sickening. The details about how those children is so awful--However, unlike Diane Downs or many other women who kill their own children, the Yates children were not abused or neglected when Andrea was on medication and functioning well. If you compare Andrea medicated and Andrea NOT medicated, you can see that this was the action of a deranged woman. She deserves to be cared for and protected and society needs to be protected from her.

Yates knew what she was doing was legally wrong, but she was convinced she was morally right. She knew she was mentally ill and severely depressed and not doing a good job raising her children, so in her warped mind, she began to believe the "voices" that her children were doomed to hell unless she sent them right then to heaven. How could she let them live here knowing they would suffer in hell forever? Such is the thinking of a deranged mind.

Don't get me wrong, I get physically ill when I think of how those children died. I don't want Andrea Yates to be released. I think people with this degree of mental illness need to be kept within facilities, because they do have violent tendencies, and we can't run the risk of them not being medicated.

The worst thing about the death of the Yates children is that they could have been prevented.

That is the truly sickening thing. Every warning sign was there and nothing worked. And those children didn't have to die.

smellsarat
01-07-2005, 02:16 AM
Haven't read the whole thread..too long...I too think she was so terribly mentally ill...thanks to the moron she was married too who kept poring the stress on...more and more kids...Anyway Catherine Crier today agrees and thinks the courts need to address this issue of insanity over again in all cases and I agree!!! But one thing she said that I hadn't heard before...the doctor who examined her said she was the absolute most psychotic patient he had ever seen!!! She still needs to be hospitalized and even if years later she got well and was released it scares me to think she would end up back with that jackass of a husband.......he would drive her right back to the funny farm!!! He is the most self-absorbed stupid idiot I have ever seen. I know many people do not understand mental illness but he takes the cake!!! On the surface he appears compassionate ..yada yadad...but he leaves her to care for them and then adds more to the burder...I'll tell you something , I had severe postpartum after my sons' birth and having a schizophrenic sister scared the crap outta me....I never had more children because I feared another pregnancy would land me in the hospital or worse........That Randy Yates makes me MAD...:furious: I always thought they shoulda charged him with criminal negligence!!

smellsarat
01-07-2005, 02:18 AM
By the way ..no link just memory jogging...remember reading years ago of a woman hospitalized after drowning her two kids..after many years of treatment was out remarried had kids and did it again.......Not to scare anyway but you just never know!!!:hand:

Candlelight
01-07-2005, 02:31 AM
Thank you so very much. :)\
I really appreciate you reading my post. She has always struck a chord with me because her illness was SO visible.. even in the face of her heinous crimes.
God bless all.
CL



Candlelight:

Amen! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 05:33 AM
I've posted this question both here and on the Andrea Yates thread in the Jury Room.

Isn't there something we can do for this poor woman? I don't think the state should even be persuing prison for her ~ help, yes ~ prison, no.

I didn't follow the trial ~ but I just read that the jury deliberated 3 1/2 hours only before they returned the verdict??? And that Dr. Diptz-shitz who testified that Andrea watched a television program that never aired???

I just don't see how this woman could have been judged competant to stand trial. And why wasn't Rusty tried for willful negligance ???

Simply funding a new defense for this poor woman just doesn't seem to be enough ~ isn't there more that can be done for her?

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 06:01 AM
I could not agee with you more Cass.......you're absolutely right.

His the story............read it again all of you!

http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxooooooo
mama
I don't get any story from that link... I'm glad she's geting a new trial ~ but I'm worried about the outcome of it... I read the Fox article and saw the picture of her mom by a self portrait drawn by Andrea in prison.

If the trial goes the way the first one did ~ Dr. lying about a show that was never aired ~ oh yeah, he said he "erred" ~ and the jury only taking 3 1/2 hours for deliberations... sigh ~ can Andrea handle another "freak show mock trial?"

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 06:13 AM
In the first place, the conviction was overturned because of a problem with one of the expert witnesses. Not because the appellate court thinks she's mentally ill. Secondly, she is NOT going to be released from prision. She's still a danger to herself and others. They will most likely retry her, but she'll spend the time either in a jail/prison of some sort or a mental hospital. Since she had a clear and long history of mental issues, its my wish that the prosecutor will agree to having her committed to a mental institution for the remainder of her life. While she may not be suicidal at this moment due to the medication she's on, she has, at least three times in prison already, either talked about suicide or tried it.

As another poster said, since Yates' trial, at least three mothers who murdered their children have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Two of these women had absolutely NO history of mental illness whatsoever. If Yates doesn't fit the definition of mentally insane, its worthless in my opinion. I don't believe she should ever be free to walk amongst us, but neither should she be in prison either.
Yeah, that post gave me some hope if there is a new trial. I agree that the prosecutor should agree to having her committed to a mental institution. I am happy to read though that she was working in the prison flower garden the FOX had a photo of her mother standing by a self portrait of Andrea drawn in prison ~ at least she drew herself smiling. I really do feel bad for Andrea and for her mother.

KatzHome
01-07-2005, 06:18 AM
I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.
Great post ~ thanks!

Love_Mama
01-07-2005, 09:52 AM
I don't get any story from that link... I'm glad she's geting a new trial ~ but I'm worried about the outcome of it... I read the Fox article and saw the picture of her mom by a self portrait drawn by Andrea in prison.

If the trial goes the way the first one did ~ Dr. lying about a show that was never aired ~ oh yeah, he said he "erred" ~ and the jury only taking 3 1/2 hours for deliberations... sigh ~ can Andrea handle another "freak show mock trial?"

KatzHome........just scroll down to where it say's BACKGROUND.

xxxxxxxxxooooo
mama

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 10:27 AM
What's not being realistic? I don't want her getting pregnant even if the child is taken away. People incarcerated should not be allowed to reproduce! I'd allow anesthesia for Andrea, but not for Rusty!! :eek:


In the first place, I seriously doubt that she's having sex either in prison or when she's in the hospital, and secondly, we're not in China! America doesn't sterilize people (even the ones who desperately need it).

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 10:36 AM
What I heard this morning is that the prosecutor's office is going to appeal the decision at the appellate court level. Since this was their decision, I doubt that they'll change their minds. This is what they call "getting off on a technicality." For those of you wondering what you can do to help Andrea, you can write to the court and to the prosecutor's office.

I'm attaching a link to a website about the Yates story. It contains a shockingly beautiful picture (a glamour shot) of Andrea when she had use of her mind and it also talks about Rusty. Please take the time to read the website:

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_yates.html

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 10:52 AM
Excerpts from an article in today's Dallas Morning News:

Doctor knew testimony was flawed
Dietz's erroneous testimony led to verdict being overturned

Park Dietz For more than a quarter-century, psychiatrist Park Dietz has testified at the trials of notorious criminals.

The list includes Unabomber Theodore Kaczynski, serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer and would-be presidential assassin John Hinckley Jr.

Dr. Dietz, often the go-to guy for prosecutors, has himself been under the microscope for testimony he gave in the Andrea Yates trial.

His testimony described a similar crime in what turned out to be a non-existent episode of the television series Law & Order. That erroneous testimony led a Houston appeals court on Thursday to overturn the murder conviction of Mrs. Yates for drowning her children.

A receptionist at Dr. Dietz's office in Newport Beach, Calif., said Thursday that neither Dr. Dietz nor his firm had an immediate comment on the court's decision. And the judges noted in their opinion that Dr. Dietz "acknowledged that he had made an error in his testimony."

In a rare interview on the subject with The Dallas Morning News in April, Dr. Dietz discussed his testimony. He called it a mistake, adding that he offered to return to Houston at his own expense to correct it while the Yates trial was under way.

* * *

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/010705dntexdeitz.3d9ed.html

kato
01-07-2005, 11:21 AM
What I heard this morning is that the prosecutor's office is going to appeal the decision at the appellate court level. Since this was their decision, I doubt that they'll change their minds. This is what they call "getting off on a technicality." For those of you wondering what you can do to help Andrea, you can write to the court and to the prosecutor's office.

I'm attaching a link to a website about the Yates story. It contains a shockingly beautiful picture (a glamour shot) of Andrea when she had use of her mind and it also talks about Rusty. Please take the time to read the website:

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_yates.html

I saw that pic (looked like a glamour shot) last night for the 1st time and was shocked. She fixed up purty well.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 11:33 AM
I saw that pic (looked like a glamour shot) last night for the 1st time and was shocked. She fixed up purty well.


Kato, not to be flippant about this case because its so serious, but she homeschooled 5 kids and attended to every one of their needs by herself for all intents and purposes. Rusty didn't seem to be much of a provider of anything except sperm. This by itself is enough to make anyone a little nutty. All of that combined with their "religeon" and her mental illness was just too much!!!

Pepper
01-07-2005, 11:46 AM
By the way ..no link just memory jogging...remember reading years ago of a woman hospitalized after drowning her two kids..after many years of treatment was out remarried had kids and did it again.......Not to scare anyway but you just never know!!!:hand:My point exactly! Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if she is found to be legally insane then she will be remanded to a mental hospital until such time as her doctors pronounce her cured! At that time she may be released!

I have no problem with her receiving treatment in a mental facility, so long as the people of Texas can rest assured that she will NEVER be released.

I also think we have to ask if we are willing to deem her insane, is it because she is a woman? If a man had done something similar with a similar history, wouldn't we just call him a monster and demand the death penalty?

I think of those poor children begging and fighting for their life, futilely, against their mother's overpowering strength, and the haunting words of the one who said something like, "Mommy, I'll be good, I promise. Don't hurt me."

kato
01-07-2005, 12:20 PM
Kato, not to be flippant about this case because its so serious, but she homeschooled 5 kids and attended to every one of their needs by herself for all intents and purposes. Rusty didn't seem to be much of a provider of anything except sperm. This by itself is enough to make anyone a little nutty. All of that combined with their "religeon" and her mental illness was just too much!!!

I agree about the flippant part. I guess I'm just a hard *ss when it comes to mental illness. Granted I don't have 5 kids and really nothing else in common with Andrea. But I do suffer from and have since my teens with major depression. I was in and out of hospitals since the age of 14. My real father put me in my 1st one when I was 9. I had problems. But who wouldn't have problems being shifted from foster home to foster home since the age of 4 and then one of your real parents wants you back and you go and it doesn't work out. I had major problems (couldn't keep a job cuz I couldn't leave the house on some days, suicide attempts, anorexia, bulimia, not able to maintain a healthy relationship) until I was 30. But I would never dream about or thought about hurting someone else. I finally realized that I did need help and checked myself in for the last time (hopefully) Granted, I do take medication and am very well now. I've had my same job for almost 8 years and have been with my BF for 9. But suffering from major clinical depression is a daily struggle that I will have to deal with my whole life. I'm not ashamed of myself because alot of people have problems. People who do not suffer from this do not understand. Depression is totally different from sadness. And Jeana I know you know the difference personally. I'm just trying to explain my reasoning to others.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is it is becoming quite trendy these days for people to commit crimes and blame it on mental illness.

SoloFlyer
01-07-2005, 12:39 PM
Obviously Andrea has mental issues but then again everyone does. Hers were certainly exacerbated by her "religion" and her lack of support. Honestly I believe that Rusty, her preacher friend and several of the Doctors that treated her need to be held accountable. It does not take a genius to figure out that a mentally unstable woman should NEVER be left alone with 5 children to care for 24/7. That is enough to make a sane person crazy, Never mind the living in a bus and home-schooling.

Andrea reached out for help several times, she knew that her thoughts were wrong. She had the composure and aforethought to drown the children in a methodical manner. It is unfortunate that she chose this way out but she chose it and deserves to pay the consequences.

I am all for mandatory sterilization of some people that have proven they are not fit to parent. Andrea and Rusty Yates are at the top of that list as well as any murderer, child molester, child abuser or those that just have another child each year just for the increase in welfare payments.

I once knew a man that bragged about having 18 children by 16 different women. He never had a job or paid any child support but he did manage to steal some diapers occaisionally. This man was a mere 26 years old at the time! He wanted to beat the world record for fathering children, that was his entire life's ambition. It took all I had not to reach down and cut off his family jewels as he spoke.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 01:22 PM
Thanks for your post Kato!! Looking at those pictures of Andrea when she was "well" and the pictures of her the day of the murders and during the trial. I think all of us need to be a little more open to accepting and discussing mental illness. Most of us have been affected by it in one way or another. Also, something for most of us to keep in mind is that just because we may not have these issues "now" doesn't mean that we're especially immune to ever having them. They can strike without warning, or being barred by gender, race, religeon, or economic background!!! Andrea Yates, was then and is now by far one of the more seriously ill people I can remember hearing about. I take a great deal of pride in Texas being tough on criminals, but I'm ashamed that the jury couldn't look at this woman and see that she was totally and completely out of her mind when she killed those kids.

kato
01-07-2005, 01:25 PM
Thanks for your post Kato!! Looking at those pictures of Andrea when she was "well" and the pictures of her the day of the murders and during the trial. I think all of us need to be a little more open to accepting and discussing mental illness. Most of us have been affected by it in one way or another. Also, something for most of us to keep in mind is that just because we may not have these issues "now" doesn't mean that we're especially immune to ever having them. They can strike without warning, or being barred by gender, race, religeon, or economic background!!! Andrea Yates, was then and is now by far one of the more seriously ill people I can remember hearing about. I take a great deal of pride in Texas being tough on criminals, but I'm ashamed that the jury couldn't look at this woman and see that she was totally and completely out of her mind when she killed those kids.

And thank you, Jeana. I like that we can post to each other and still understand where the other one is coming from.

cynder
01-07-2005, 02:04 PM
My point exactly! Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if she is found to be legally insane then she will be remanded to a mental hospital until such time as her doctors pronounce her cured! At that time she may be released!
I have no problem with her receiving treatment in a mental facility, so long as the people of Texas can rest assured that she will NEVER be released.
I also think we have to ask if we are willing to deem her insane, is it because she is a woman? If a man had done something similar with a similar history, wouldn't we just call him a monster and demand the death penalty?

If you do research - murderers who are found to be insane statistically spend MORE time in custody than those who are found guilty and receive sentences of less than death or life without parole. Most are so sick that they are never released and die in a state hospital while in custody. Andrea is not likely to be released EVER - nor is she likely to remarry or have more children. What is sad is that Rusty Yates is free to do both and probably will as soon as he can find a suitably controllable woman.
You cannot compare men and women in this specific instance - men do not suffer from post partum psychosis. Aside from that Andrea is/was not just depressed - she is/was also psychotic with some evidence of schizophrenia as well. Schizophrenic Hinckley is in a mental institution (not prison) so the insanity defense does not just apply to women. I understand severe depression but this went far beyond that into the realm of true psychosis. Andrea was catatonic for months at a time - unable to care for herself, much less 5 children - 2 of which were basically infants requiring full time care. For Rusty to assume she would miraculously "get better" makes him as guilty (and maybe more so, since he was not ill) as Andrea in the death of the children.
To say Andrea is guilty because she called 911 or "knew" what she did was wrong is to deny the whole nature of this type of psychosis. What IS mental illness if not being forced by your mind into behaviors deemed inappropriate by society? How can anyone look at that woman and say that she was capable of resisting the psychosis. And it wasn't as if she had not asked for help in her more rational moments - she must have felt by that point that there was no hope and no help - she had just recently been to see her Dr and had received no relief from the voices in her head or the compulsions that were taking over her every waking moment.
Andrea was literally forced to kill her children by an inner drive so compelling no sane person would understand. She felt she HAD to kill them to save them from Satan and her Sins in not raising them properly. While she did not WANT to kill them and fought against it, the voices and feelings conjured up in her psychosis convinced her that she HAD to kill them to save them. That is why she should be found "insane" - for even though she did not WANT to kill the children she did so anyway. She called 911 because in her mind she was deserving of punishment and even death for being unable to raise the childen properly and having to kill them to save them. Suicide by the state because she was unsuccessful in doing it herself (she had made several attempts). In her mind it was not wrong to save the children from Satan by killing them, but she herself was at fault by not raising them properly - if she had been a better mother they would not have needed saving. IE - it was her fault they died and therefore she was guilty. Very different from Susan Smith.
Andrea remains on a constant suicide watch on 4 different strong anti-psychotic medications. Despite these, she continues to slowly sink deeper into a world in her own mind. She will never be well enough to be released from the hospital and will likely die there. She belongs in a place where she can be properly cared for and looked after and at least be relieved of the worst of the self-injurious compulsions.
Remember - what we do as a society in the way we treat the least among us, we will eventually rationalize in the way we treat all of mankind. It is a very small step from condemning the mentally ill to condemning anyone who we see as inferior or different from us.

kato
01-07-2005, 02:12 PM
Cynder:

Not quoting your post cuz it's so long. But you make some very good points.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 02:50 PM
Good post Cynder!!!! Expecting someone whose mentally ill to "know" they're in trouble is past ridiculous.

luthersmama
01-07-2005, 04:24 PM
Here is an article about a particularly gruesome murder that took place in 1978. The man who committed it was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now wants out of his hospital. He has not been discharged and I doubt that he ever will be, although he is allowed out for hours at a time.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/043004_nw_wifekiller.html


Now Pennsylvania has a "guilty but insane" option that keeps insane killers behind bars forever. That is the verdict that was handed down for John DuPont. I do not believe that "guilty but insane" was on the books when Greist was tried.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 04:55 PM
http://courttv.com/trials/yates/docs/overturn.html

Link to the decision.

Jeana (DP)
01-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Here is an article about a particularly gruesome murder that took place in 1978. The man who committed it was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now wants out of his hospital. He has not been discharged and I doubt that he ever will be, although he is allowed out for hours at a time.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/043004_nw_wifekiller.html


Now Pennsylvania has a "guilty but insane" option that keeps insane killers behind bars forever. That is the verdict that was handed down for John DuPont. I do not believe that "guilty but insane" was on the books when Greist was tried.


OHMYGOD!!!

He slashed his pregnant wife to death, tore the fetus from her body and mutilated him, stabbed his six-year-old daughter in the eye and attacked his grandmother. Greist was found innocent by reason of insanity and has been in the state's largest mental hospital ever since.

wordsnmorewords
01-07-2005, 08:44 PM
http://radio.ksl.com/index.php?nid=19&sid=143078

Smart Case Witness
More trouble in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping case. An expert witness on the prosecution's list is the same man who's being blamed for overturning the conviction of Andrea Yates, the Texas mom accused of drowning her kids.


(Jan 7, 2005) --

Another twisting turn of events...

Mitty
01-08-2005, 05:49 AM
I don't know if anyone has posted this link or not, but http://www.yateskids.org is a site that is maintained by Rusty Yates. There are pictures of the kids, interesting stuff about the case, and there is a section called Media Reviews where Rusty talks about a book written by Suzanne O'Malley. (Are You There Alone?: The Unspeakable Crime of Andrea Yates). The link to the media review page is http://www.yateskids.org/media_reviews.php. On this page Rusty gives some factual corrections to things that are incorrect in the book, and I guess the other info there is his opinion. Interesting to read - made me want to go out and buy the book. Also, on this page, http://www.yateskids.org/artifacts.php, you can read Andrea's medical records. My opinion is that Andrea should be in a mental hospital for some lengthy treatment. I don't believe Rusty should be held responsible for what she did, but I do believe he should have to answer for a lot of things. You would expect a husband to notice the heavy load Andrea was under, and to do a lot more in relieving some of that load. We can't really know how much he did or didn't do, but I think continuing to have babies, knowing that she worsened with each pregnancy, was not the best thing. I do feel sorry for him - we can't expect that he should have known this would happen, and he must be in a great deal of pain over the loss of the children, and is probably sickened by the fact that his children might still be alive if he had taken a more active role in Andrea's health and problems. I have read in some of the posts here that he is looking to remarry to have more children - it is hard to imagine that one could move on that quickly after losing the 5 kids he had. For me I think it would bring back too many memories. I feel sorry for both he and Andrea, but I do hope she gets the help she needs, rather than to be locked away in a prison cell to rot.

smellsarat
01-08-2005, 09:05 AM
Hey Mitty..well i don't feel as sorry for Rusty..watched him on LKL last night and came away thinking...this guy is as dumb as a post...He tried explaining why he's divorcing her yet supporting her...that he can't quite forgive her enough to go back the way they were........He says" I kept asking her if anything was bothering her and she kept saying no"....DUH!!!!!

He seems to understand mental illness up to a point and then conveniently puts aside that when sick one can't be counted on to relay information??? I came away once again thinking of him as suprememly selfish and ignorant of his own complicity in what happened...CLULESS!!
Then he says he's sticking by her because she really doesn't have anyone else in the way of friends....Gee what a suprise!!!! :eek: :D Taking care of all those children and home schooling them and had no time for herself..???..How come??? :confused: DUH:razz:
Scary if he has children again...cuz you know it will be a woman he will have to control....

luthersmama
01-08-2005, 11:20 AM
All of the records on the yateskids site linked by Mitty are stamped to indicate that they are confidential and not to be distributed without the consent of the patient.

I wonder if Rusty got Andrea's permission to put them on the web?

I hope that somebody other than Rusty is looking out for her these days...

Texana
01-08-2005, 03:10 PM
... I don't believe Rusty should be held responsible for what she did, but I do believe he should have to answer for a lot of things. You would expect a husband to notice the heavy load Andrea was under, and to do a lot more in relieving some of that load. We can't really know how much he did or didn't do, but I think continuing to have babies, knowing that she worsened with each pregnancy.

Rusty said once that Andrea had "two hours a week to herself, but she usually chose to do the grocery shopping then and take Mary (the infant) with her."

That gives you a pretty good insight into Rusty's mentality. His former in-laws also quoted him as saying something like "that'll be a first" when they asked him to change one of the kids' diapers during one of Andrea's hospitalizations. The impression he certainly gave to his wife's family was that he wasn't much of a participant in things like that. Also, his wife's family said whenever they would ask Andrea if she planned on having more children she would say, "You'll have to ask Rusty."

Rusty is an engineer, and some of his attitudes are certainly understood by that engineering mindset: Sure, Andrea got sick, but she just took the medicine, and got better. So they could have more children. Just like an antibiotic you take when you have strep throat.

Whatever the doctors said to the contrary about Andrea's mental condition, Rusty just ignored.

That's where I do hold him responsible. As a college graduate, he had the ability to educate himself on mental illness. He could have researched her condition. He could have done so much more and he could have, in light of that information, made decisions that would have averted this tragedy. He should have been researching those drugs on his own and he should never have left her alone. He knew she had tried to kill herself at least once before. Suppose she killed herself with the children there? At the very least that should have been a major consideration with him.


It's sickening to think he's still living for what Rusty wants. He takes no responsibility for what happened, he puts it all back on Andrea or the medical profession. He wanted a "baseball team" of children, and nothing was going to get in the way of what HE wanted.

GatorMom
01-08-2005, 03:21 PM
Rusty Yates is one of the most disgusting examples of human life I've ever heard or seen.

Someone should tie him down and remove his testicles before he breeds again. Feel free to use a rusty knife (sorry) and skip the anesthetic. Rusty should suffer exactly as long as his children did when they died at the hands of the woman he drove to insanity.

He is 100% responsible for what happened to his children and his wife. He's an ass.

If Andrea Yates were my daughter, that monster would never get near her again.

smellsarat
01-08-2005, 05:25 PM
Rusty Yates is one of the most disgusting examples of human life I've ever heard or seen.

Someone should tie him down and remove his testicles before he breeds again. Feel free to use a rusty knife (sorry) and skip the anesthetic. Rusty should suffer exactly as long as his children did when they died at the hands of the woman he drove to insanity.

He is 100% responsible for what happened to his children and his wife. He's an ass.

If Andrea Yates were my daughter, that monster would never get near her again.
he mentioned something on LKl about criticism he had gotten from the public...apparently he rejects it as dead wrong...yeah well most people find him partly responsible......

cynder
01-08-2005, 07:30 PM
~Andrea Kennedy was her class Valedictorian and is a registered nurse and until 1994 worked at The MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. She is 40 years old. The Kennedy family has a history of mental illness that affects several members. Time magazine reported that Andrea's brother and sister both suffer from depression, another brother has bipolar disorder, and the father who died of Alzheimer's may have had depression.
~Rusty Yates was an Eagle Scout and has a degree in engineering, He works at Johnson Space Center for NASA.
~Rusty And Andrea Yates married in April 1993. At their wedding Rusty announced that they planned to have as many children as God would give them.Over a six year period their 5 children were born in quick succession: 2/26/94, 12/12/95, 9/13/97, 2/15/99 and 11/30/00 - Andrea also had at least one miscarriage.
~All of the children were home-schooled by Andrea and Andrea did all the cooking, housekeeping and child care. They did not attend church but had home bible study 3 nights a week. From 1996 till 1998 the family lived in a 38' travel trailer because Rusty wanted to live a "simpler life". In 1998 they purchased a 350 sq. ft bus and lived in that until they purchased the Houston house in early 2000.
~Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." The minister teaches a very conservative form of Christianity that says that women should have a very subservient position in the home, and that Satan is constantly trying to drive people wrong. In correspondence, Woroniecki and his wife Rachel bombarded the troubled and isolated Andrea with talk of Satan, and the idea that God can see people's wickedness. In one letter, Rachel Woroniecki writes, ''Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death.''
~Andrea attempted suicide twice following the birth of her 4th child - June 1999 and July 1999 and was hospitalized both times. The 1st time once home, Andrea did not take her medication and began to self mutilate and would not to feed the children because she thought they ate too much. She thought there were video cameras in the ceiling and heard characters on television talking to her and the children. She told Rusty about this, but neither of them told Andrea's psychiatrist. On July 20, Andrea put a knife to her neck and begged Rusty to let her die. She was hospitalized the 2nd time and was catatonic for 10 days. She was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. She also had the beginning signs of Schizophrenia, but these warning signs were never disclosed to the Drs. She was prescribed Haldol and her mental state improved. She was put on out-patient care and at that time the Dr. advised her and Rusty that she could worsen with the birth of future children and should not have any more children. Andrea had difficulty communicating with her Drs and was reluctant to reveal any of her symptoms, she often relied on Rusty to speak for her.
~At the urging of Andrea's family, Rusty decided it would help Andrea to buy a home and move the family out of the cramped bus. They bought a home in a nice family neighborhood but Rusty exhibited a sense of arrogance as he explained to his new neighbors why his children had to be home-schooled: "The social integration that the world claims is so essential is exactly what we need to protect our children from." So the Yates didn't integrate with their neighbors, who didn't agree with Rusty's beliefs.
~Once in the new house Andrea seemed improved and stable so in March of 2000, Andrea, with Rusty's encouragement, was again pregnant and stopped taking her Haldol. November 30, 2000, Mary was born. In addition to caring for the 4 boys and newborn Mary, Andrea also did the majority of the daily care for her Father, who had Alzheimers. On March 12, 2001 Andrea's father died and almost immediately her mental state deteriorated. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible. She again attempted suicide with her father's medications.
~The end of March 2001 Randy took a worsening Andrea to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released after 10 days of hospitalization and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.
~Two days later Andrea drowned her 5 children - During her confession she explained her actions by saying that she wasn't a good mother and that the children were "not developing correctly" and she needed to be punished. Found guilty Andrea was sentenced to life in prison.
~Rusty Yates filed for divorce in June 2004. He wishes to remarry and have a family, he said.

smellsarat
01-08-2005, 07:52 PM
I think he is totally responsible for what happened...what an arrogant moron!!!

Candlelight
01-08-2005, 09:15 PM
Combined with the website Jeana put up with a photo of Andres when she was younger, highly functioning, beautiful, an RN, a lovely young lady.

Rusty Yates tore her life apart and used her like a slave was used. No wonder her mind broke. I'm surprised her body survived.

I wonder if she was ever beaten? We know she was deprived of normal living conditions, probably while pregnant- living in a stupid travel trailer and a school bus when he made a good salary- like I said before, close to $100,000 a year!!!

I wish she had had a strong family support system in her birth family, someone who could have rescued a woman who was nothing but a brood mare in a stall.

I hope and pray that she is sent to a mental hospital for the criminally insane, or a state locked institution. Like John Hinkley, the guy who shot Reagan. The facilites are secure, they are inspected, they provide medication and a safe environment.

ANDREA YATES IS NOT SAFE IN PRISON!!! Other women inmates to not take kindly to women who have killed children.. I am VERY surprised that she has lived this long among the prison population.






~Andrea Kennedy was her class Valedictorian and is a registered nurse and until 1994 worked at The MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. She is 40 years old. The Kennedy family has a history of mental illness that affects several members. Time magazine reported that Andrea's brother and sister both suffer from depression, another brother has bipolar disorder, and the father who died of Alzheimer's may have had depression.
~Rusty Yates was an Eagle Scout and has a degree in engineering, He works at Johnson Space Center for NASA.
~Rusty And Andrea Yates married in April 1993. At their wedding Rusty announced that they planned to have as many children as God would give them.Over a six year period their 5 children were born in quick succession: 2/26/94, 12/12/95, 9/13/97, 2/15/99 and 11/30/00 - Andrea also had at least one miscarriage.
~All of the children were home-schooled by Andrea and Andrea did all the cooking, housekeeping and child care. They did not attend church but had home bible study 3 nights a week. From 1996 till 1998 the family lived in a 38' travel trailer because Rusty wanted to live a "simpler life". In 1998 they purchased a 350 sq. ft bus and lived in that until they purchased the Houston house in early 2000.
~Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." The minister teaches a very conservative form of Christianity that says that women should have a very subservient position in the home, and that Satan is constantly trying to drive people wrong. In correspondence, Woroniecki and his wife Rachel bombarded the troubled and isolated Andrea with talk of Satan, and the idea that God can see people's wickedness. In one letter, Rachel Woroniecki writes, ''Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death.''
~Andrea attempted suicide twice following the birth of her 4th child - June 1999 and July 1999 and was hospitalized both times. The 1st time once home, Andrea did not take her medication and began to self mutilate and would not to feed the children because she thought they ate too much. She thought there were video cameras in the ceiling and heard characters on television talking to her and the children. She told Rusty about this, but neither of them told Andrea's psychiatrist. On July 20, Andrea put a knife to her neck and begged Rusty to let her die. She was hospitalized the 2nd time and was catatonic for 10 days. She was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. She also had the beginning signs of Schizophrenia, but these warning signs were never disclosed to the Drs. She was prescribed Haldol and her mental state improved. She was put on out-patient care and at that time the Dr. advised her and Rusty that she could worsen with the birth of future children and should not have any more children. Andrea had difficulty communicating with her Drs and was reluctant to reveal any of her symptoms, she often relied on Rusty to speak for her.
~At the urging of Andrea's family, Rusty decided it would help Andrea to buy a home and move the family out of the cramped bus. They bought a home in a nice family neighborhood but Rusty exhibited a sense of arrogance as he explained to his new neighbors why his children had to be home-schooled: "The social integration that the world claims is so essential is exactly what we need to protect our children from." So the Yates didn't integrate with their neighbors, who didn't agree with Rusty's beliefs.
~Once in the new house Andrea seemed improved and stable so in March of 2000, Andrea, with Rusty's encouragement, was again pregnant and stopped taking her Haldol. November 30, 2000, Mary was born. In addition to caring for the 4 boys and newborn Mary, Andrea also did the majority of the daily care for her Father, who had Alzheimers. On March 12, 2001 Andrea's father died and almost immediately her mental state deteriorated. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible. She again attempted suicide with her father's medications.
~The end of March 2001 Randy took a worsening Andrea to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released after 10 days of hospitalization and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.
~Two days later Andrea drowned her 5 children - During her confession she explained her actions by saying that she wasn't a good mother and that the children were "not developing correctly" and she needed to be punished. Found guilty Andrea was sentenced to life in prison.
~Rusty Yates filed for divorce in June 2004. He wishes to remarry and have a family, he said.

Texana
01-08-2005, 09:48 PM
Candlelight, from all accounts her family did try. However, her mother appears quite elderly, and her father was suffering from dementia. I think her siblings felt quite helpless to help her and she refused of course to go against Rusty. From their comments in interviews there is clearly no love lost for Rusty. I think they are probably consumed with guilt or anger or both for not being able to help her.

Rusty did an excellent job of isolating Andrea. Even with a plethora of conservative churches around that would have supported her homeschooling, the desire to have a large family, and the emphasis upon a subservient wife, Rusty just couldn't find "one he agreed with."

I don't believe he ever beat her. It was much more emotional abuse and manipulation. In one interview, he said that he had "offered" to get Andrea helpf for the house, like a maid or housekeeper. It's so inexpensive here to get such help and with his salary and the price of the house they bought, it would have been a no brainer. He said she said no.

I've always thought that he couched it in terms of, "Well, if you can't handle this, Andrea," or worse yet, 'Looks like we should get some illegal immigrant to clean this house better." Something along those lines. Something that put Andrea down and made her perfectionistic character refuse. Maybe he said, 'But the money will have to come from somewhere so we'll have to cut back on something like the groceries." Something along those lines.

I've never known a woman in her right mind who refused a maid.

The fact that he could make the comment, 'You won't find a clean glass in that house," when he had just left an hour or two before--says it all, doesn't it? What the hell was HE doing?

At least those children are where Rusty can't get to them anymore either.

jilly
01-09-2005, 05:39 PM
I can't get over watching Greta (I think) last week when Rusty was on and they kept showing 2 photographs of Andrea - like a before and after a makeover. One photo was her mugshot and the other this glamorous rendition.

Did anyone see this?? I didn't see the beginning of the show and was just wondering what this was all about.

I've been reading all these threads and haven't seen anyone mention it & I'd think that I dreamed it except they showed the comparison photos about 4 times!!

Texana
01-09-2005, 06:37 PM
Jilly,
I think we talked about the photos here briefly earlier in this thread. One is the "glamor shot" style photo of Andrea, taken either just before she was married or right around that time. The other is the mug shot when she was of course very very mentally ill.

A picture is worth a thousand words, isn't it?

jilly
01-09-2005, 08:36 PM
Jilly,
I think we talked about the photos here briefly earlier in this thread. One is the "glamor shot" style photo of Andrea, taken either just before she was married or right around that time. The other is the mug shot when she was of course very very mentally ill.

A picture is worth a thousand words, isn't it?

Thanks Texana :) I always read the entire thread before I post - I don't know how I missed the previous page - probably resorted to scanning this one after reading the threads in the jury room and parking lot.

Gawd, this Rusty is the real nut imo. Couldn't he just look at her and see what this was all doing to her - she went from Beauty to Beast for goodness sake.

I agree with all the other posters, this guy was a sarcastic control freak. Why would she say she killed them because she wasn't a good mother otherwise. Probably because of his subtle derogatory comments to her on a daily basis.

This is simply heart breaking.

Texana
01-10-2005, 12:03 AM
Exactly, Jilly. And you really can't make a big enough deal about the photos. They are speak volumes.

One is Andrea, beautiful and healthy. Maybe not the most well adjusted and healthiest emotionally, but certainly a functioning person.

The other photo is just unspeakable.

And Rusty Yates had a big part in that. I do believe that day by day he helped that change, but even if he was the kindest, gentlest man on earth, he had to be the world's biggest fool to not notice the decline in her! She was scratching her head BALD, for pete's sake! She wasn't eating or bathing.

There was an article in the Houston Chronicle today (I'll try and add it in a minute, I usually don't succeed but I'll try) in which her friend talked, the one who tried to get help for Andrea and begged Rusty to do something just a few days before the killings. She visits Andrea still. The article mentioned that the children--especially John, I think the oldest, and Mary, the baby--were very well aware of her condition by their actions--John "shielded his eyes" when he looked at her, and Mary cried.

As sick as she was, Andrea noticed that.

It also said that Andrea said she asked Rusty, "What was I like when I was sick" and Rusty would say, "Like you are now, only quieter."

Rusty is one of the few people on earth that the more he says, the less you can feel any sympathy or liking for him.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2984081

smellsarat
01-10-2005, 12:31 AM
Anyone have those pictures..I've never seen her before pics???

Texana
01-10-2005, 01:07 AM
Anyone have those pictures..I've never seen her before pics???

Check the website referenced earlier in the thread. It's the one maintained oddly enough by Rusty. He'll probably shut it down soon, so check it out.

If you go to the Houst Chronicle story it probably has a side bar referencing the earlier stories and may have the photos as well.

You HAVE to see the before photo. It's unreal.

Even the photos of her after Mary's birth, when she was on the meds, is unbelievably different.

smellsarat
01-10-2005, 08:47 AM
Her situation reminds me of my sister who is schizophrenic...in the early years she hooked up with a guy she met in the hospital...and he would always insist that she go off her meds...inevitably she would end up back in the state hospital!!! GGGRRRR..turned out he was taking her disability checks ..stacking them up and when he left for Portugal (his homeland) he took his own state funded monies and hers!!!
I have a friend who is on Paxil for extremem anxiety, HER boyfriend wants her to go off it....What is wrong with these people that they would wish ill health on someone...I guess it's all about control and keeping them weak...barefoot and pregnant sure applies to Andrea doesn't it???

Gabby
01-10-2005, 09:40 AM
Her situation reminds me of my sister who is schizophrenic...in the early years she hooked up with a guy she met in the hospital...and he would always insist that she go off her meds...inevitably she would end up back in the state hospital!!! GGGRRRR..turned out he was taking her disability checks ..stacking them up and when he left for Portugal (his homeland) he took his own state funded monies and hers!!!
I have a friend who is on Paxil for extremem anxiety, HER boyfriend wants her to go off it....What is wrong with these people that they would wish ill health on someone...I guess it's all about control and keeping them weak...barefoot and pregnant sure applies to Andrea doesn't it???


I take Paxil and I would do without my blood pressure medicine before my paxil

Jeana (DP)
01-10-2005, 11:38 AM
Friend: Yates is calmer, optimistic

HOUSTON – Andrea Yates, whose capital murder convictions for drowning her children in the family bathtub were overturned last week, is calmer and in better spirits at the prison psychiatric ward where she has been serving a life sentence, a friend said.

Instead of sobbing uncontrollably or slipping into a psychotic state, Mrs. Yates was cheerful and optimistic during prison visits in December, said her best friend, Debbie Holmes.

"Her hands used to tremble and shake, and she used to move the phone from ear to ear, back and forth," Ms. Holmes told the Houston Chronicle in Sunday's online edition, describing the visits. "She is much more calm now."

Ms. Holmes said that she and Mrs. Yates reminisced about past Christmas holidays spent together and that Mrs. Yates asked whether she had used glass ornaments that the Yates children made for her.

"I told her I had and that I would put them up every year until the day I die," Ms. Holmes said.

She said that Mrs. Yates, separated by glass and listening to her through a telephone, paused, then smiled.

* * *
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/011005dntexyates.955ea.html

jilly
01-10-2005, 10:17 PM
Exactly, Jilly. And you really can't make a big enough deal about the photos. They are speak volumes.

One is Andrea, beautiful and healthy. Maybe not the most well adjusted and healthiest emotionally, but certainly a functioning person.

The other photo is just unspeakable.

And Rusty Yates had a big part in that. I do believe that day by day he helped that change, but even if he was the kindest, gentlest man on earth, he had to be the world's biggest fool to not notice the decline in her! She was scratching her head BALD, for pete's sake! She wasn't eating or bathing.

There was an article in the Houston Chronicle today (I'll try and add it in a minute, I usually don't succeed but I'll try) in which her friend talked, the one who tried to get help for Andrea and begged Rusty to do something just a few days before the killings. She visits Andrea still. The article mentioned that the children--especially John, I think the oldest, and Mary, the baby--were very well aware of her condition by their actions--John "shielded his eyes" when he looked at her, and Mary cried.

As sick as she was, Andrea noticed that.

It also said that Andrea said she asked Rusty, "What was I like when I was sick" and Rusty would say, "Like you are now, only quieter."

Rusty is one of the few people on earth that the more he says, the less you can feel any sympathy or liking for him.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2984081

Thanks for the link Texana. Very interesting...reduced me to tears.

I don't think I'm strong enough to follow this case (never did before either). I can't get past those poor kids and I think I detest Rusty Yates more than Scott Peterson.

Texana
01-11-2005, 12:01 AM
I find the Yates case makes me sicker and angrier than the Peterson case, because very few people could predicted that Scott Peterson would actually kill his wife. On the other hand, anybody with half a mind could have predicted that with the degree of mental illness Andrea was exhibiting, and her history, that things would have turned out badly in some way.

The only comfort I can find at all--if there is any to be found--is that these children cannot be warped or twisted by their father, as they might have been growing up with him. (They might have rebelled in other ways, but that can be just as bad for a young person.)

And maybe we will finally begin to focus attention more on mental illness AND protecting society from the violently mentally ill. It seems to be all one way or the other--no balance. A person who is found innocent by reason of insanity can still be set free in a shockingly short amount of time in Texas, (perhaps due to budget pressures? Hmm!) A man who gouged out his former girlfriend's eyes was recently found to be "well" after less than five years! (She had oddly enough, just turned down his marriage proposal.)

I do believe Rusty is someday going to meet the God he's been claiming to serve, and heaven help him then if he doesn't repent and realize his responsibility in this tragedy.

lisafremont
01-11-2005, 11:13 PM
I will never understand a number of things:

Why did Andrea and Rusty continue to have children when she suffered from postpartum depression that was only getting worse?

Why did her mother and brother (who I just saw on Larry King Nearly Dead tonight) think that Andrea's merely being suicidal wasn't in itself a danger to the children? (As if, had Andrea killed herself instead of them, that wouldn't have been horribly traumatic for them.)

Why has Rusty never been held accountable for his part in this tragedy? Tonight I learned from Andrea's brother Brian that Rusty's attitude pre-murders was that depressed people just needed a swift kick in the rear.

Why was Andrea left alone with those children?

And why didn't Andrea, when she was having the murderous ideation, do something herself? She knew it was wrong but she gave into the impulses.

Still I blame Rusty more than her.

The mother and brother mentioned "Warnecke" who is, in their opinion, a cult leader now in Oregon, who preaches a lot about satan and who they blame when they aren't blaming Rusty.

This whole case is disgusting and just enrages me.

luvbeaches
01-11-2005, 11:32 PM
Rusty is one of the few people on earth that the more he says, the less you can feel any sympathy or liking for him.

www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2984081

Boy, that's no kidding. Why on earth would this man continue having children with her (considering her mental condition).

Tonight on LKL when her brother said Rusty felt a kick in the rear would fix it all, I about choked. This is criminal in my opinion. He knew, and he turned his head the other direction. However, just recently, Rusty was on LKL and seemed to support getting help for those who suffer from mental illness. What a turnaround. Too bad he didn't seek a little help for his wife, and just maybe his children would be alive today.

smellsarat
01-11-2005, 11:36 PM
Thank the ACLU in part as they have allowed the mentally ill and sick to remain free to be sick...Believe me when i tell you that altho my sister has had schizophrenia for forty years...she is LUCKY she got sick when she did...in these days altho tough...very tough to get help...at least there were state hospitals to go to back then ...

Now the only option for these people is prisons...or feending for themselves.....Luckily my sister was in the system before it was decimated ....so she is at least housed................I have found in trying to help friends in similar situations that in those 40 years treatment of the mentally ill has gotten worse ,...not better...We may have the methods ...as in drugs etc...but we cannot make them get help.....it is against their rights.....and the number of teens and children in trouble is growing.

LinasK
01-11-2005, 11:52 PM
I will never understand a number of things:

Why did Andrea and Rusty continue to have children when she suffered from postpartum depression that was only getting worse?

Why did her mother and brother (who I just saw on Larry King Nearly Dead tonight) think that Andrea's merely being suicidal wasn't in itself a danger to the children? (As if, had Andrea killed herself instead of them, that wouldn't have been horribly traumatic for them.)

Why has Rusty never been held accountable for his part in this tragedy? Tonight I learned from Andrea's brother Brian that Rusty's attitude pre-murders was that depressed people just needed a swift kick in the rear.

Why was Andrea left alone with those children?

And why didn't Andrea, when she was having the murderous ideation, do something herself? She knew it was wrong but she gave into the impulses.

Still I blame Rusty more than her.

The mother and brother mentioned "Warnecke" who is, in their opinion, a cult leader now in Oregon, who preaches a lot about satan and who they blame when they aren't blaming Rusty.

This whole case is disgusting and just enrages me.I agree with all of your points above, but in addition, I read most of her 517 pages of medical history of her last admission(s). It appears that the psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed white-washed her with blanket assessments of she's getting better, he didn't record her previous suicide attempts where there were places to fill that info in, she didn't eat and was minimally responsive during her stay, yet he discharged her with "no suicidal intent", no mention of homicidal intent, yet mentions her preoccupation with mothering, refusing to put the baby down, refusing to take her meds, and "a supportive husband"... so it appears the medical system failed her too...

smellsarat
01-11-2005, 11:54 PM
I agree with all of your points above, but in addition, I read most of her 517 pages of medical history of her last admission(s). It appears that the psychiatrist, Dr. Saeed white-washed her, he didn't record her previous suicide attempts where there were places to fill that info in, she didn't eat and was minimally responsive during her stay, yet he discharged her with "no suicidal intent", no mention of homicidal intent, yet mentions her preoccupation with mothering, refusing to put the baby down, refusing to take her meds, and "a supportive husband"... so it appears the medical system failed her too...
Don't get me started on psychiatrists!!!!:razz:

LinasK
01-11-2005, 11:58 PM
Thank the ACLU in part as they have allowed the mentally ill and sick to remain free to be sick...Believe me when i tell you that altho my sister has had schizophrenia for forty years...she is LUCKY she got sick when she did...in these days altho tough...very tough to get help...at least there were state hospitals to go to back then ...

Now the only option for these people is prisons...or feending for themselves.....Luckily my sister was in the system before it was decimated ....so she is at least housed................I have found in trying to help friends in similar situations that in those 40 years treatment of the mentally ill has gotten worse ,...not better...We may have the methods ...as in drugs etc...but we cannot make them get help.....it is against their rights.....and the number of teens and children in trouble is growing.
Ummm, here in California, we have good ole' Ronny Reagan to blame rather than the ACLU for decimating the mental health system and turning these people loose on the streets to become homeless.
Tipper Gore, on the other hand, has done alot to promote awareness of mental health issues.:truce:

jilly
01-12-2005, 01:50 PM
I will never understand a number of things:

Why did Andrea and Rusty continue to have children when she suffered from postpartum depression that was only getting worse?

Lisa, from what I've seen & heard about Rusty, I have a strong feeling that he probably made her have sex every night, and brainwashed her into thinking that it was her DUTY to satisfy her man's needs and bear children.

Why did her mother and brother (who I just saw on Larry King Nearly Dead tonight) think that Andrea's merely being suicidal wasn't in itself a danger to the children? (As if, had Andrea killed herself instead of them, that wouldn't have been horribly traumatic for them.)

I know what you're saying but I can see them thinking that because 1. they knew how much she loved those children and 2. who would think that a loving mother would kill her 5 children. Just the same, the brother did say they considered at one point getting in between her & Rusty and getting her out. If I was them, I'd be suffering a tremendous amount of guilt right now.


Still I blame Rusty more than her. [COLOR=MediumTurquoise]Absolutey agree!


The mother and brother mentioned "Warnecke" who is, in their opinion, a cult leader now in Oregon, who preaches a lot about satan and who they blame when they aren't blaming Rusty.

Oh, I think they blame Rusty - As I heard it, he's the one that brought Warnecke into the situation. Didn't one of them say that Rusty turned Andrea over to him or something to that effect. And, he's the one Rusty bought the bus from. As I understood, Warnecke is the one who preached nothing else but Satan and that they were all going to die. I think they blame him but also Rusty for Warnecke's involvement.

This whole case is disgusting and just enrages me.

Me too. I also think the Kennedy's are disgusted with Rusty for at one time ignoring the depression and now suddenly becoming an advocate for mental health.

Rusty to me is a danger in our society and to think that he will now go on to have more children is criminal.

By the way - sorry about the torquoise!! Thought I was being so clever in choosing a pretty color. Just a LITTLE hard on the eyes!!

smellsarat
01-12-2005, 05:16 PM
Ummm, here in California, we have good ole' Ronny Reagan to blame rather than the ACLU for decimating the mental health system and turning these people loose on the streets to become homeless.
Tipper Gore, on the other hand, has done alot to promote awareness of mental health issues.:truce:
actually it was deinstitutionalization that brought that about...they thought with the new meds they could empty the hospitals...what they didn't figure is these people would stop taking their meds when left on their own.............now the support networks are few and far between..............:doh:

luthersmama
01-12-2005, 08:23 PM
Don't get me started on psychiatrists!!!!:razz:


I have to try to be a little careful about how I say this but...here goes...

Dr. Saeed was apparently male. He was also Middle Eastern...Saudi? Egyptian? can't really tell....but I bet the outcome would have been a whole lot better for Andrea if she had been treated by a female or at least by a male whose background was a little different in regard to the "proper" role of women. I am familiar with Devereux and their programs and generally have a great deal of respect for them. On the other hand, I have had dealings with a couple of their foreign-born doctors and, although they may be perfect for some patients, a post-partum depressed, insecure, downtrodden woman would NOT get what she needs from them. PPD has a lot of cultural expectations and misunderstandings tied up in it. I honestly don't think that most male shrinks can be as effective as a female in treating it and a male who grew up in a super-patriarchal culture is never going to get it.

Texana
01-12-2005, 09:23 PM
Luthersmama, I think you said that very well...and I agree!

My sister had endometriosis for years. Finally, after various treatments failing for one reason or another, her doctor suggested a hysterectomy. She was turned down by the insurance--and when they called to question why, the insurance rep could give no reason in reply. Finally the rep answered, "In my country women don't get hysterectomies."

I don't know what culture that woman was from, but it clearly was a factor in how my sister was treated. (After the surgery, which was eventually approved, the doctor said he couldn't believe my sister had been even functioning with the level of pain that was obvious from her condition once they surgically examined her.)

I had just attributed her poor medical care to an HMO type deal, but I think you are right on in seeing yet another factor that led to this tragedy.

This was a catastrophic failure of all systems that should have been working to protect those children.

LinasK
01-12-2005, 09:25 PM
actually it was deinstitutionalization that brought that about...they thought with the new meds they could empty the hospitals...what they didn't figure is these people would stop taking their meds when left on their own.............now the support networks are few and far between..............:doh:
Well, when Ronald Reagan was governor, he initiated the deinstitutionalization here in California.:mad: (directed at him, not you)

LinasK
01-12-2005, 09:29 PM
[QUOTE=Texana]

My sister had endometriosis for years. Finally, after various treatments failing for one reason or another, her doctor suggested a hysterectomy. She was turned down by the insurance--and when they called to question why, the insurance rep could give no reason in reply. Finally the rep answered, "In my country women don't get hysterectomies."
[ /QUOTE]

:eek: :eek: :eek: I sure hope this woman was not allowed to keep her job!!!

Texana
01-12-2005, 09:36 PM
However, just recently, Rusty was on LKL and seemed to support getting help for those who suffer from mental illness. What a turnaround. T


Well, IMO, he supports mental illness health reform now because it's another convenient excuse for him. He'll support anything he can blame.

In regards to that psychopathic "preacher" Warnecke, Rusty said it was "Andrea" who really liked and listened to him. Well, if my husband liked a religious nut that said things I considered unhealthy, said nut wouldn't be getting into MY mailbox or anything else.

Rusty exercised control in that household. If Andrea listened to Warnecke, it was with Rusty's full approval and blessing.

Rusty just knows if he says he agreed he'll get even more blame.

The man is a pathetic excuse for manhood. He refused to protect the children he fathered, and he refuses to take responsibility for it.

As for Andrea, why she didn't remove herself or get help, mental illness is NOT the same as a physical illness. With a physical illness, you feel terrible physically, but your brain is still functioning enough to think, "Gee, I feel hot, fevered, achy, and fatigued. I've got to get to a doctor for some help and probably a prescription!" With mental illness, one and two don't add up. The brain no longer has the ability to recognize the severity of the illness and seek help. The mentally ill person is simply overwhelmed by the illness.

I've had personal experience with a loved one who was mildly depressed. Andrea was classified as severely depressed--even allowing for the fact that the schizophrenia somewhat overlooked--I would NEVEr have left my child or any child alone with the mildly depressed person. It was obvious to any body with a lick of sense that person was just barely capable of looking after themselves.

When you talk to these people, it's obvious something is wrong. They are clearly struggling. You wouldn't leave a child with a babysitter in this condition!

That's why Rusty is guilty of child endangerment. He should have been tried and convicted for it. I firmly believe he would have been brought up on charges if he hadn't been a white educated guy working for Nasa.

luthersmama
01-12-2005, 09:56 PM
As for Andrea, why she didn't remove herself or get help, mental illness is NOT the same as a physical illness. With a physical illness, you feel terrible physically, but your brain is still functioning enough to think, "Gee, I feel hot, fevered, achy, and fatigued. I've got to get to a doctor for some help and probably a prescription!" With mental illness, one and two don't add up. The brain no longer has the ability to recognize the severity of the illness and seek help. The mentally ill person is simply overwhelmed by the illness.




I had mild PPD after both babies. Nothing like Andrea's situation, but the second time landed me flat on my a$$ for three weeks, during which I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't go to class... it was awful. One of the worst things about it is that I FELT GUILTY for feeling sick!!! I wanted the babies so much and had waited years to have them....had a great husband, nice house, starting a new career....why should I feel sad? Why should I feel angry that the baby wasn't sleeping through the night? I thought I was being an ungrateful idiot.

Thank goodness I had a great (female) Dr. who took one look at me at explained what was going on. I was so relieved!!!! I went on some fairly serious meds and started getting better right away. Although I had missed most of three weeks of classes, I graduated in the top ten percent of my class three months later.

If I had been isolated and surrounded by religious fanatics telling me that all women are hopelessly sinful, I have no doubt that the outcome would have been bad. Having someone tell me that I would feel better some day was a HUGE help.

Since then, whenever I encounter a client or a friend who is in that bad place, I find it helps them alot to hear me say "You WILL get better. This isn't your fault! You can be helped! Take the meds, take care of yourself, do what the Dr's. say, and you WILL FEEL BETTER some day. Might not be tomorrow or even next week, but DON'T GIVE UP - YOU WILL GET BETTER!!"

smellsarat
01-12-2005, 10:57 PM
Unfortunately the majority of people do not equate depression as an illness.......Their is still stigma and there are still idiots like rusty who think all they need is a kick in the butt....depression also causes physical ills along with the mental problems which many people are unaware of.............

Many people in this field believe another word should be employed to name it...calling it "depression" really doesn't give it the full weight of seriousness it deserves............One of the best books I ever read that described what it feels like is Darkness Visible by William Styron...the fellow who wrote "The French Lieutenants Woman"....Reading it one can actually begin to feel the very symptoms that nearly caused him to commit suicide...........Walter Cronkites daughter also wrote a great book forget the name where she told numerous stories of well-known peoples struggles with the illness...(like Mike Wallace, Art Buchwald ,) Patty Duke is anotherwith a great book...etc...... Unfortunately many still don't get it!!

Texana
01-13-2005, 12:12 AM
The reaction from family can be so devastating if you are suffering from depression or other chemical inbalances/mental illnesses. My loved one had one family member who referred to it as "so-called condition."

Depression is a chemical inbalanace. Having a genetic weakness plus environmental stresses triggers it. Hormonal changes are also involved.

I think when Andrea was talking, nobody was listening, so after awhile, she just stopped talking. :furious:

KatzHome
01-13-2005, 12:40 AM
... If Andrea listened to Warnecke, it was with Rusty's full approval and blessing.
Yeah, I think so too. "Wives, obey your husbands." I think Andrea did everything that she could to be true to her marriage vows. She even lived in a school bus, for crying out loud! Without knowing her, I'm still certain that she tried her best to be a "good" wife. It's too bad he didn't honor his half of the marriage vow...

The man is a pathetic excuse for manhood. He refused to protect the children he fathered, and he refuses to take responsibility for it.
Beyond that, and before that ~ "Husbands, love your wives." From what I see, his love is very shallow. If he loved his wife ~ he would have put her good before all things. He would have wanted to provide for her the best that he could. (Not a school bus.) He could have controlled himself and gone to her when she was least likely to become pregnant ~ yeah, he may have done that ~ but from what I see, and from how he spoke of her being pregnant so frequently ~ I highly doubt it. If he really loved her with a holy love ~ so many things would have been different.


I would NEVEr have left my child or any child alone with the mildly depressed person. It was obvious to any body with a lick of sense that person was just barely capable of looking after themselves.
I wouldn't give Charlie, the stray cat that moved in last Christmas, to someone at work who drinks and is moody, depressed and somewhat spacy. I was really glad she didn't want him, even though she first said she wanted to take him, because I had serious reservations about giving the cat to her and I was trying to figure out a way to tell her I was keeping him without hurting her feelings.

It's disappointing that someone has less concern for their own children than I had for a stray cat.


...educated guy working for Nasa.
Un-freakin-believable...

jilly
01-13-2005, 01:40 PM
Andrea needs a damn good divorce attorney imo. Think of what Rusty has stashed away over these years - an engineer at NASA, first living in a bus and then a measley 1,600 sq ft house with five kids & 2 adults. Andrea wearing next to rags, kids probably never saw new clothing (I know hand me downs are fine, but the baby girl and oldest child probably never saw a new outfit either.)

To heck with this 60-40 stuff and he should pay her alimony for the rest of her life. I wonder how that works when one party is incarcerated. If he is such a man of God as it seems he would want everyone to believe, he should be reminded in a monetary way with respect to "for better or worse". Maybe that would open his freaking eyes!!

Oh yes, I am out for vengeance here.

Jeana (DP)
01-13-2005, 02:44 PM
Andrea needs a damn good divorce attorney imo. Think of what Rusty has stashed away over these years - an engineer at NASA, first living in a bus and then a measley 1,600 sq ft house with five kids & 2 adults. Andrea wearing next to rags, kids probably never saw new clothing (I know hand me downs are fine, but the baby girl and oldest child probably never saw a new outfit either.)

To heck with this 60-40 stuff and he should pay her alimony for the rest of her life. I wonder how that works when one party is incarcerated. If he is such a man of God as it seems he would want everyone to believe, he should be reminded in a monetary way with respect to "for better or worse". Maybe that would open his freaking eyes!!

Oh yes, I am out for vengeance here.


I don't think he makes nearly what you think he does.

smellsarat
01-13-2005, 06:43 PM
Katz..noticed the word "shallow" in your post...funny I think that of Rusty every time I see him on TV....I think with him ..what you see is what you get..nothing deeper there to discover.........

KatzHome
01-14-2005, 12:33 AM
Katz..noticed the word "shallow" in your post...funny I think that of Rusty every time I see him on TV....I think with him ..what you see is what you get..nothing deeper there to discover.........
Hey SAR ~ and he wants to marry again so that he can have more children. It just ticks me off more and more, SAR... He is shallow... I really think you're reading him right ~ I'm not getting it from seeing him... but from what he wrote on that website... from his recent announcement about wanting to divorce her so he can have a "family" again... He didn't honor the family he had the first time around... he won't be any better this time around, either ~ not with him blaming the preacher and saying it was his wife who was all into it... no ~ she had to have gotten it from Rusty believing in what that preacher was saying... so much so that his family wasn't well cared for by him... shallow...

I really hope that there isn't a woman who'll fall for his nonsense this time around...

smellsarat
01-14-2005, 12:49 AM
I really hope that there isn't a woman who'll fall for his nonsense this time around...You and I both know there will be far too many ready and willing!!!:razz:

KatzHome
01-14-2005, 01:03 AM
You and I both know there will be far too many ready and willing!!!:razz:
Yeah.. he'll be considered a "good catch" by all too many ~ and that's sad ~ really sad ~ especially if the next family is subjected to the same conditions as his first family.

I bought an "interview suit" yesterday, SAR ~ By all reason and logic ~ it's totally "WRONG" ~ but I like it... :D It's red... :D Bright blouse too... Couldn't miss me in the dark... :D

smellsarat
01-14-2005, 08:45 AM
Hey Katz with that suit you could become a Las Vegas Showgirl!!!:woohoo:

KatzHome
01-14-2005, 09:19 AM
Hey Katz with that suit you could become a Las Vegas Showgirl!!!:woohoo:
{{{tickle}}} Not exactly ~ It's still a conservative cut ~ hugs!

kato
01-14-2005, 10:18 AM
Andrea needs a damn good divorce attorney imo. Think of what Rusty has stashed away over these years - an engineer at NASA, first living in a bus and then a measley 1,600 sq ft house with five kids & 2 adults. Andrea wearing next to rags, kids probably never saw new clothing (I know hand me downs are fine, but the baby girl and oldest child probably never saw a new outfit either.)

To heck with this 60-40 stuff and he should pay her alimony for the rest of her life. I wonder how that works when one party is incarcerated. If he is such a man of God as it seems he would want everyone to believe, he should be reminded in a monetary way with respect to "for better or worse". Maybe that would open his freaking eyes!!

Oh yes, I am out for vengeance here.

There is no alimony here in Texas.

There is temporary spousal support usually given to woman who is or has not been working. It doesn't last for long as the judge will tell the woman to get a job. My sister just went through a nasty divorce. She was getting 3,000/mo.. The judge gave her 6 months to find a job.

jilly
01-14-2005, 01:17 PM
There is no alimony here in Texas.

There is temporary spousal support usually given to woman who is or has not been working. It doesn't last for long as the judge will tell the woman to get a job. My sister just went through a nasty divorce. She was getting 3,000/mo.. The judge gave her 6 months to find a job.

No alimony?? Oh, my goodness!! Under no circumstances? Unbelievable.
So was the 3,000/mo for the children?

Texana
01-14-2005, 11:10 PM
Jeana, I think Rusty did make a very good salary. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 to 100k. Mr. Texana is in a closely related field.

He made enough to afford much more for his family than he gave them. And he could have hired a housekeeper for at least once a week, for about $50 a week.

Kato's right, no alimony in Texas. The child support can be quite high, though, it's set at (I believe) a mandatory 20% regardless of how much the custodial parent makes.

luvbeaches
01-15-2005, 12:33 AM
I don't think he makes nearly what you think he does.

I'd say 60-100k is pretty average (and many make more). My son and husband are both engineers, and we own our own business. It's not unusual for us to pay an experienced engineer 100K or more. We hire them out of college and start them at 60k with benefits.

My son has friends who took jobs (right out of college), in Boston, and northern California, and were paid 90k and 135k to start out. I'll bet Rusty made a very good living. I do not know how she took care of the house, the kids, and deal with him considering her mental state.

Rusty could have afforded to get her the best medical help out there (instead of the kick in the rear that he believed was all that was needed). I'm sure NASA has great benefits. Rusty strikes me as the one who called all the shots in the house. Now he seems to be softening toward mental illness. What a jerk.

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:00 PM
From CNN.com:

BREAKING NEWS Andrea Yates, the Houston woman convicted of drowning her five children in a bathtub, to get new trial, her attorney tells CNN.

I was very involved in this case. I was/am heartbroken over the death of these 5 children. No mother in her right mind would do this. I'm glad she's getting a new trial, hopefully she can get the help she needs.

The issue of postpartum depression/psychosis needs to be brought to the forefront as a real medical issue. (Poo Poo on Tom Cruise! :razz: )

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:02 PM
NO WAY!:eek:


omg...has she no remorse? Why can't she just take the punishment that was doled out to her?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:05 PM
Andrea's conviction was actually overturned in January. At the time, her attorney said he wouldn't seek her release from the prison psychiatric hospital because he was concerned about her mental state at the time. Since that time her husband divorced her, making her mental state even more fragile. I don't believe that they will put her through a new trial, but they may, at some point, try to move her from the prison hospital to a hospital outside of the prison.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:06 PM
NO WAY!:eek:


omg...has she no remorse? Why can't she just take the punishment that was doled out to her?


Ummmmm, because she's mentally ill?

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:07 PM
Ummmmm, because she's mentally ill?Ok...many people disagree about her case. I think she belongs in prison.

Editted to add: or mental health facility for the rest of her days.

IMO- don't shoot the messenger.

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:12 PM
Idaho Mom - During the first trial of Andrea Yates, I felt the same as you...that she deserved prison for what she did. She committed the most reprehensible crime.

After my anger subsided, and I thought it over and read various things about Andrea and her past, I changed my mind.

I don't want her ever to live in a free society again, but I think if anyone fits into the "insanity defense", it is Andrea Yates. If she isn't insane, I don't know who is.

IMO

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:14 PM
I don't believe that they will put her through a new trial, but they may, at some point, try to move her from the prison hospital to a hospital outside of the prison.

I think they will put her through a new trial for the reason above. So that they can move her elsewhere.

IMO - I don't believe she should be in prison. She is sick and in need of help. She will not receive the type of help she needs being in prison. My heart breaks for her and her kids and what they all went through and continue to go through.

The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:17 PM
Idaho Mom - During the first trial of Andrea Yates, I felt the same as you...that she deserved prison for what she did. She committed the most reprehensible crime.

After my anger subsided, and I thought it over and read various things about Andrea and her past, I changed my mind.

I don't want her ever to live in a free society again, but I think if anyone fits into the "insanity defense", it is Andrea Yates. If she isn't insane, I don't know who is.

IMOThanks for your polite response. This is a loaded issue.

I just watched a show about her case the other night. Every time I see her darling children, it breaks my heart.
I realize she was very sick, but she has no place in our society- sorry, but her crime cancels her right to that.
It was especially heartbreaking to hear that her kids were afraid of her. :(

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:19 PM
The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:
I agree he should be in jail, too. :mad:

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:20 PM
Every time I see her darling children, it breaks my heart.

I know. I had dreams about those children for a very long time. I could not get them out of my mind. Saddest case I've ever seen. :(

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:25 PM
I know. I had dreams about those children for a very long time. I could not get them out of my mind. Saddest case I've ever seen. :(
I agree. It's hard to look at the faces of her kids, knowing what they went through. Especially her son she chased through the house. :( :mad:

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:25 PM
I realize she was very sick, but she has no place in our society- sorry, but her crime cancels her right to that.
It was especially heartbreaking to hear that her kids were afraid of her. :(

I disagree with the bolded statement (politely, of course). I fully believe that had she had the proper medical treatment, these crimes would have never happened. That's the heartbreaking point for me. When Rusty saw her slipping, he should have been more involved in getting her the help she needed. How he could let her go weeks without bathing - that is just plain disgusting. How can she possibly be left alone to care for 5 kids when she couldn't take care of herself? It was also reported that she didn't speak and rarely ate. Just how was she communicating with her kids? Did she ever feed them when she was alone with them?

As I said, had she had the correct medical treatment, I believe those kids would be alive today. The fact that they are dead, I blame on her husband.

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:28 PM
I disagree with the bolded statement (politely, of course). I fully believe that had she had the proper medical treatment, these crimes would have never happened. That's the heartbreaking point for me. When Rusty saw her slipping, he should have been more involved in getting her the help she needed. How he could let her go weeks without bathing - that is just plain disgusting. How can she possibly be left alone to care for 5 kids when she couldn't take care of herself? It was also reported that she didn't speak and rarely ate. Just how was she communicating with her kids? Did she ever feed them when she was alone with them?

As I said, had she had the correct medical treatment, I believe those kids would be alive today. The fact that they are dead, I blame on her husband.First of all- Jules- I love you like a sister. We need to agree to disagree on this case. :):angel:
But, what's done cannot be undone. Do you think she should be released eventually into society? In that event- what happens if she goes off her meds again?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:29 PM
I think they will put her through a new trial for the reason above. So that they can move her elsewhere.

IMO - I don't believe she should be in prison. She is sick and in need of help. She will not receive the type of help she needs being in prison. My heart breaks for her and her kids and what they all went through and continue to go through.

The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:


Her conviction was overturned. Unless and until the prosecutor decides they WANT a new trial, she can be moved anywhere they agree she can be moved to.

bugs
11-09-2005, 12:34 PM
It really is a sad case all the way around. I still remember her talking about the older son running from her once he figured out what she was doing. She is mentally ill and she should be in a mental hospital but evaluated every six months.

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:34 PM
Her conviction was overturned. Unless and until the prosecutor decides they WANT a new trial, she can be moved anywhere they agree she can be moved to.

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Texas' highest criminal court on Wednesday let stand a lower court ruling that threw out Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her children in a bathtub in June 2001.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Alan Curry said the case would be retried or a plea bargain considered.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/09/yates.newtrial.ap/index.html

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:36 PM
First of all- Jules- I love you like a sister. We need to agree to disagree on this case. :):angel:
But, what's done cannot be undone. Do you think she should be released eventually into society? In that event- what happens if she goes off her meds again?

No, I don't think she should be released back into society. I do believe she should be in a treatment facility never to be let out - but not in prison.

And I love you too! :blowkiss:

cinsbythesea
11-09-2005, 12:40 PM
Count me in as another who initially was appalled by Andrea. But as the full story was revealed I began to feel very badly for her. It's a tragic story all the way around. I don't believe that Andrea will ever be able to function in the free world again-but rather than being locked up in a prison I think a hospital setting would be more beneficial to her, as from what I've read, she goes into deep episodes of depression etc and goes in and out of phases of reality. When Rusty told her he was divorcing her she stopped eating and they had to hospitalize her for days to tube-feed her. I have followed this case from day one and this case really pulls at my heart strings big time. I hope she is given a new trial and placed in a hospital. And I REALLY hope Rusty doesn't jump from talk show to talk show to talk show once a new verdict is in like he did the last time. I'm of the opinion he too should have been brought up on charges-don't care for him AT ALL.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:41 PM
HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Texas' highest criminal court on Wednesday let stand a lower court ruling that threw out Andrea Yates' murder convictions for drowning her children in a bathtub in June 2001.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Alan Curry said the case would be retried or a plea bargain considered.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/09/yates.newtrial.ap/index.html


Darlin, I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not. LOL The district attorney has to decide it wants to retry her. My feeling is that her attorney will work out an agreement with the prosecutors whereby she would be committed to a psychiatric hospital for probably the rest of her life. While she's been in "prison" since her conviction, she's been in a "psychiatric hospital" in the prison for almost 100% of her time there because she's psychotic to the point of not being able to speak. If the prosecutor decides they want to retry her, what they'd essentially be doing is waiting until she's declared competent to even stand trial for a second time and then whether she's declared not guilty by reason of mental illness or she's convicted and sentenced to life in prison, she'll end up . . . guess where . . . in the same psychiatric hospital she's in now or the one they'll agree to move her to. SO, the State can spend hundreds of thousands more of its dollars to do absolutely nothing but keep her where she is, or they can just agree that its ridiculous to do so and come up with some sort of agreement on the constraints of her hospitalization.

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:43 PM
I agree. It's hard to look at the faces of her kids, knowing what they went through. Especially her son she chased through the house. :( :mad:

I know. He was 7 years old. He definitely knew what was happening. And, his name was Noah, the name of one of my dear sons. So very very sad. :(

cinsbythesea
11-09-2005, 12:44 PM
Darlin, I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not. LOL The district attorney has to decide it wants to retry her. My feeling is that her attorney will work out an agreement with the prosecutors whereby she would be committed to a psychiatric hospital for probably the rest of her life. While she's been in "prison" since her conviction, she's been in a "psychiatric hospital" in the prison for almost 100% of her time there because she's psychotic to the point of not being able to speak. If the prosecutor decides they want to retry her, what they'd essentially be doing is waiting until she's declared competent to even stand trial for a second time and then whether she's declared not guilty by reason of mental illness or she's convicted and sentenced to life in prison, she'll end up . . . guess where . . . in the same psychiatric hospital she's in now or the one they'll agree to move her to. SO, the State can spend hundreds of thousands more of its dollars to do absolutely nothing but keep her where she is, or they can just agree that its ridiculous to do so and come up with some sort of agreement on the constraints of her hospitalization.

This makes great sense, thanks for clarifying. Would Andrea even be mentally strong enough to endure another trial? I'm not thinking so. Her attorney seems to genuinely care about her-hopefully he can come to some agreement with the prosecutor and get her where she needs to be with the least amount of stress possible on her.

Jules
11-09-2005, 12:45 PM
Darlin, I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not. LOL The district attorney has to decide it wants to retry her. My feeling is that her attorney will work out an agreement with the prosecutors whereby she would be committed to a psychiatric hospital for probably the rest of her life. While she's been in "prison" since her conviction, she's been in a "psychiatric hospital" in the prison for almost 100% of her time there because she's psychotic to the point of not being able to speak. If the prosecutor decides they want to retry her, what they'd essentially be doing is waiting until she's declared competent to even stand trial for a second time and then whether she's declared not guilty by reason of mental illness or she's convicted and sentenced to life in prison, she'll end up . . . guess where . . . in the same psychiatric hospital she's in now or the one they'll agree to move her to. SO, the State can spend hundreds of thousands more of its dollars to do absolutely nothing but keep her where she is, or they can just agree that its ridiculous to do so and come up with some sort of agreement on the constraints of her hospitalization.

Heehee! No, we're not disagreeing. I just hope they offer her a plea and put her in a hospital somewhere where she will continue to get the help she needs - not in a prison psychiatric hospital. My guess is there are far better places out there than where she is. That was my point... ;)

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 12:49 PM
Heehee! No, we're not disagreeing. I just hope they offer her a plea and put her in a hospital somewhere where she will continue to get the help she needs - not in a prison psychiatric hospital. My guess is there are far better places out there than where she is. That was my point... ;)

This is true. I remember when she was convicted and sentenced, it was said that she would not get the care she needed in a prison hospital. She needs the care she could receive in a mental hospital.

I can't imagine she will ever be free again, and I hope not.

As someone mentioned above, this senseless tragedy could have been avoided, if only the people around her (particularly her so-called husband), would have gotten her the proper treatment and quit getting her pregnant! I don't understand and I never will, how he could leave her alone with those children day after day when she was in the shape she was in!

Rusty definitely bears alot of responsibility in this tragedy, but ultimately Andrea committed the crime.

IMO

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 12:52 PM
Heehee! No, we're not disagreeing. I just hope they offer her a plea and put her in a hospital somewhere where she will continue to get the help she needs - not in a prison psychiatric hospital. My guess is there are far better places out there than where she is. That was my point... ;)


LOL To tell you the truth, I'm not sure which hospital would be better. "State run psychiatric hospital," to me, sounds like hell on earth. I get the feeling that her attorney wasn't all that unhappy about the way she's been treated at the prison hospital. I seem to recall hearing someone on her team say that she's better off there - at least for now. I guess we'll hear more about all of this in the weeks to come. If the prosecutor does decide to retry her, I for one, will be sending a pretty strongly worded letter to them. My tax dollars can be used for better things, IMO.

I feel that Rusty had a lot responsibility in all of this, but I've always wondered why her doctors were not more responsible. Not just for her own wellbeing, but for the kids' as well. They KNEW her situation at home and put her children, in my opinion, in harm's way. I'd like to see children protected more at that level.

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:55 PM
As someone mentioned above, this senseless tragedy could have been avoided, if only the people around her (particularly her so-called husband), would have gotten her the proper treatment and quit getting her pregnant! I don't understand and I never will, how he could leave her alone with those children day after day when she was in the shape she was in!

IMOThe sad thing is, she said in her recorded police interview, she was planning to do this for some time before...she just waited until Rusty and his Mom (?) were both gone. (sorry-but I can't emember if it was Rusty's Mom or her Mom that had been staying at the house)

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 12:59 PM
She should be incarcerated in some capacity for the rest of her life (and, yes, a mental facility would be best):

Andrea, about Noah's last moments, from CourtTV:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/2.html

When Andrea was finished with Mary, she left her floating in the water and called to her oldest son, Noah.
He came right away. "What happened to Mary?" he asked. Then apparently realizing what his mother was doing, he ran from the bathroom but Andrea chased him down and dragged him back to the tub. She forced him in face down and drowned him right next to Mary. She admitted in her confession that he had put up the biggest struggle of all. At times he managed to slip from her grasp and get some air, but she always managed to push him back down. His last words were, "I'm sorry." She left him there floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, where police found him.

Jules
11-09-2005, 01:06 PM
His last words were, "I'm sorry."

Oh that made me cry. That poor child. I can't imagine the horror he felt.

deanws
11-09-2005, 01:36 PM
Andrea's conviction was actually overturned in January. At the time, her attorney said he wouldn't seek her release from the prison psychiatric hospital because he was concerned about her mental state at the time. Since that time her husband divorced her, making her mental state even more fragile. I don't believe that they will put her through a new trial, but they may, at some point, try to move her from the prison hospital to a hospital outside of the prison.I believe removing her from a prison hospital and into a psy. hospital is the right decision. I hope that is what Texas decides to do. I believe that is what her family wants also. Everyone in her family knows she needs serious help. Rusty deserves to take her place in prison. That B@stard is slime!:slap:

blueclouds
11-09-2005, 01:38 PM
I'm very thankful that she's getting a new trial. NOTHING excuses killing children EVER and she needs to be locked up for eternity HOWEVER she needs to be in a mental facility as I truly believe she cracked.

I also think her EX husband that LOVES AND ADORES HER AND WOULD STAND BY HER needs his hiney in jail too. He's just as culpable IF NOT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!

deanws
11-09-2005, 01:56 PM
The sad thing is, she said in her recorded police interview, she was planning to do this for some time before...she just waited until Rusty and his Mom (?) were both gone. (sorry-but I can't emember if it was Rusty's Mom or her Mom that had been staying at the house)Well, the reason she was waiting to do this is because the "cult" guy that was giving her religious instruction said that it was her responsibility to make sure her kids were all going to heaven. She, in her mental state, believed that she was a horrible mother and was dooming her children to hell because she couldn't make them holy. Thus, she thought she had to end their lives before the age of accountability approached. In her sick mind, she was saving their souls. So very sad. Rusty knew she was ill...and getting sicker every minute that passed. He had been told that having more children was a tremendous risk to Andrea. He didn't care. What a loser. He deserves to serve time in jail as well. God, I hope the fool doesn't have anymore children..though I know he will.:sick:

michelle
11-09-2005, 01:59 PM
The sad thing is, she said in her recorded police interview, she was planning to do this for some time before...she just waited until Rusty and his Mom (?) were both gone. (sorry-but I can't emember if it was Rusty's Mom or her Mom that had been staying at the house)
I remember hearing that too, but my thing is she had been planning these murders if she was waiting for people to leave to do them, wouldnt that suggest that she was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 02:04 PM
I remember hearing that too, but my thing is she had been planning these murders if she was waiting for people to leave to do them, wouldnt that suggest that she was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing?

Yes, you're right. Rusty's mother had been coming to stay with her during the day because she was in such bad shape, they knew she couldn't care for the children properly. There was, I believe, about a 25-minute window of opportunity between the time Rusty left and his mother arrived.

She KNEW what she was doing was wrong, and that's where the wording of the laws in Texas comes into play. Hard for a jury to find her not guilty by reason of insanity if they properly apply the law. However, its long been my contention that the law is worded wrongly. Some states' laws say if a mental illness was the proximate cause of the crime, then the jury can consider the mental illness as a defense. Texas is long overdue in reviewing these laws, IMO.

deanws
11-09-2005, 02:08 PM
I'm very thankful that she's getting a new trial. NOTHING excuses killing children EVER and she needs to be locked up for eternity HOWEVER she needs to be in a mental facility as I truly believe she cracked.

I also think her EX husband that LOVES AND ADORES HER AND WOULD STAND BY HER needs his hiney in jail too. He's just as culpable IF NOT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they get her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 02:09 PM
I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they gets her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Very well said.

bugs
11-09-2005, 02:11 PM
I believe that is what they are asking for, or at least it was about 6 months ago. See..she is on a cycle. When they gets her meds working, she realizes what she did...then goes off the deep end again. She will never recover. She is not an evil person, just a very VERY ill one. God bless her soul. Many people in her life contributed to this tragedy. Her husband for not listening to the doctor about having more children. Her shrink for taking her off some of the meds suddenly instead of weaning her off like you should do. The loser "cult" guy that was filling her sick head with bunk and caused her tremendous guilt. Those poor sweet babies. I know they a beautiful angels now. No, she needs not ever to be walking the streets free again. However, she needs attention that I don't believe she will get in a prison situation. :(


Excellent post!!

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 02:12 PM
"It's a good day," defense attorney George Parnham said. "The whole issue of mental health, specifically women's mental health, has been championed in this decision." (See video about Yates' new trial -- 3:05)

Parnham said a new trial is a mixed blessing, because Yates will have to relive the horror of her children's deaths, but added, "She needs to be found not guilty by reason of insanity."

Parnham told CNN he would try to strike a plea agreement that would send Yates to a mental health facility rather than prison.

"She has been told that she will be retried." She is not looking forward to a retrial, he said.

"She would gladly forgo this process," he said, "but you know, the right thing needs to be done here, and we're going to do it."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/09/andreayates.retrial/index.html

Details
11-09-2005, 02:18 PM
Yes, you're right. Rusty's mother had been coming to stay with her during the day because she was in such bad shape, they knew she couldn't care for the children properly. There was, I believe, about a 25-minute window of opportunity between the time Rusty left and his mother arrived.

She KNEW what she was doing was wrong, and that's where the wording of the laws in Texas comes into play.I'm not sure that meant she knew it was wrong - she just knew that they'd try to stop her.

I don't see her as much of a danger after some treatment. For her it's not a matter so much of the meds, as of never again being married to an idiot who tells her she's responsible for the children, having a ton of young children, living in a lousy trailer or whatever where there's a ton of work, and being overstressed, all at once. It was a bit of a perfect storm - the preacher who told her the children's souls were her responsibility, the depression, the uncaring husband who kept getting her pregnant knowing the risks to his wife, the lousy and stressful living conditions the husband insisted on, just everything. Take away any one of these items, and those kids would be alive and Andrea Yates would be no threat to anyone at all.

But she'll need probably a decade of therapy at the least in a hospital. I know what she did, but I feel sorry for her because I really don't think she would have done it had one person in her life shown the least bit of compassion or common sense. The doctors or the husband, possibly even the mother in law could have seen she was really sick, and taken care of her, and nothing would have happened. So very little was required to prevent this, and none of them did it. She was obviously sick enough she shouldn't have been left alone for 45 minutes! Even if they couldn't see what she would do to the children, it should have been obvious what she might do to herself (not that I think Rusty cared about that).

Casshew
11-09-2005, 02:55 PM
Wow, I just heard the news... I am so glad she is getting a new trial, she (IMO) is mentally ill.

MrsMush99
11-09-2005, 02:57 PM
I'm glad she's getting a new trial too. Although, I think she shouldn't be in jail but a mental facility that can help her.

Casshew
11-09-2005, 03:11 PM
I agree with you Mushy :blowkiss:

Although, I am not sure how much help people get in these institutes and maybe prison would be a better envornment. (I have heard some horror stories about how patients are treated/mistreated)

Only4Justice
11-09-2005, 03:40 PM
:(
She should be incarcerated in some capacity for the rest of her life (and, yes, a mental facility would be best):

Andrea, about Noah's last moments, from CourtTV:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/2.html

When Andrea was finished with Mary, she left her floating in the water and called to her oldest son, Noah.
He came right away. "What happened to Mary?" he asked. Then apparently realizing what his mother was doing, he ran from the bathroom but Andrea chased him down and dragged him back to the tub. She forced him in face down and drowned him right next to Mary. She admitted in her confession that he had put up the biggest struggle of all. At times he managed to slip from her grasp and get some air, but she always managed to push him back down. His last words were, "I'm sorry." She left him there floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, where police found him.

Oh, Idaho Mom, I was sick for months over the death of these children. That poor child. My heart is breaking again....

This is one sick woman. She will never be well. If she was to get well, she would have to face what she did. Who could face that?

IMO

PrayersForMaura
11-09-2005, 04:00 PM
Five mental health experts testified that Yates did not know right from wrong or that she thought drowning her children was right. Dietz was the only mental health expert to testify for the prosecution and the only one who testified she knew right from wrong.

While prosecutors agreed Yates was mentally ill, they argued that the illness was not severe enough to impede her ability to know right from wrong. Jurors agreed, and did not declare her legally insane.

Yates, 41, was sentenced to life in prison and is jailed at a psychiatric prison in East Texas.

In spite of the unlikelihood of a plea deal — in which Yates would plead guilty to the killings rather than not guilty by reason of insanity — there is one scenario that both the defense and the prosecution could agree to.

"The government would have to give up the ghost on seeking the death penalty, the sentence being life in an institution instead of in jail [with the rest of the prison population] without the possibility of parole," FOX News senior judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano told FOXNews.com. "That's the only guilty plea that would be acceptable."

Yates isn't currently housed with the general inmate population, and Napolitano said both sides would have to concur that she should spend the rest of her life in either a mental institution or a psychiatric prison without the chance of ever going free.

"The jury found that she is not a danger to anybody else, that she’s so crazy she couldn’t hurt a fly in jail," Napolitano told FOXNews.com.

But Texas prosecutors are elected, meaning they have to answer to voters.

"It's a rough-and-tumble, swaggering electorate who like to see the guilty punished to the max," Napolitano said. "I don't know that a plea deal is in the cards. It depends on the political wishes of the prosecutor."

The murders of the Yates children, the youngest a 6-month-old baby and the oldest a 7-year-old, horrified the country and became a high-profile instance of postpartum depression used in an insanity defense.

Yates' name has been frequently evoked in similar cases, most recently last month when a young mother dropped her three young children to their deaths in the San Francisco Bay.

More: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175041,00.html

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:18 PM
I have a friend, who had a neighbor that was mentally ill. This woman when on her meds (no one knew)was a little vacant, but was well known in the community, and seemed to dote on children. One day, she walked over to my friend's house. My friend and her 3 kids were playing around on the front lawn. Her neighbor said- "Do you want to come down to my house and feed the squirrels? They're practically eating out of my hands today." My friend and kids went to the neighbor's. The neighbor lady said "I have a treat inside for _ _ _ _." She took this little girl by the hand and proceeded downstairs to a bathroom. She took her into the bathroom, locked the door and proceeded to slit my friend's daughter's throat, and stab her in the neck several times. She then went back outside and said to my friend, "I just killed your baby".

My friend screamed for help, ran in the house, grabbed her daughter and ran with her into the middle of the street, screaming for help. Luckily a few people came out and held the gaping wound shut, while paramedics came. My friend's daughter is alive by the grace of God...all major veins/arteries were missed by fraction of an inch.

This woman went to court, and her attornies fought to keep her in the home while waiting for trial- said she was mentally ill, temporarily off her meds and a mental hospital would further her decline.To the dismay and disgust of the community, this woman was returned to her house. It came out she was left at home alone, unmedicated again. Her PO said she started having impulses to harm people with scissors/knives.

Eventually, she was held in a hospital for a short period of time. She is now living in a different neighborhood-probably with unsuspecting neighbors.

I am very sorry, but I think that once someone commits a crime of this nature, they forfeit any chance of ever returning to society again. I don't mean to sound harsh, but Andrea Yates needed to be out of the house long before any of the damage occurred. Her kids were scared of her! People said she had the look of a wild animal at times! My God, someone needs to protect the innocent people in our society, rather than slap a bandage on the mentally ill and put them back in the home. IMO

PrayersForMaura
11-09-2005, 04:21 PM
Oh my goodness, Idahomom, that is awful! I shudder just thinking about that!
Good God!
That is absolutely horrifying.
I feel ill just visualizing that.

I hope your friend has recovered just psychologically and emotionally from that.... and her daughter, too.

Cassata11
11-09-2005, 04:22 PM
I have been waiting to see if she would get a new trial after Dr. Dietz testified incorrectly at her first trial. I remember watching the trial, or at least the sentancing on CourtTv. I have also read most of the transcripts. It's sad that a women on that kind of intense mind controlling drugs was left alone for any amount of time. The hospitizalations and the flippant usage of the drugs would be enough for anyone to lose it. Did you know it was only days before the murders that a Dr. said she was OK, and took her off of Haldol? Not even a week earlier she was suicidal, and talking about death!?!?

I don't know about anyone else...but my doctor gave me Wellbutrin to quit smoking, and it takes several weeks to build up AND come out of your system. I thought I was manic! (LMAO)

I would like to see Andrea's doctors have to take some responsibility as well.

As for Andrea, she is a sick woman that did a terrible act. Whatever the outcome, I hope that she is able to receive treatment.

Love and Light...Cassata

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:25 PM
I hope your friend has recovered just psychologically and emotionally from that.... and her daughter, too.
My friend has not recovered the way that I would hope. It has taken her years and years of work. She is working at it.

Her daughter is doing quite well. Very full of life and funny.

This event sent ripples through our community. I am very protective of my kids, and this I play through my mind frequently when they're away from me.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:27 PM
This was her attorney's comment:

Parnham said a new trial is a mixed blessing, because Yates will have to relive the horror of her children's deaths, but added, "She needs to be found not guilty by reason of insanity."

_______________________________________________

I don't know how far he's willing to take this in order to try and make this happen. I guess it depends on what the prosecution offers. However, this case strikes up huge emotions. It may not be too difficult to find another jury who think she needs to go to prison.

If she's really as bad off emotionally/mentally as we've been told, how competent is she to aid in her own defense? How competent is she to be able to let Parnham know whether she wants another trial or not?

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:28 PM
I am very sorry, but I think that once someone commits a crime of this nature, they forfeit any chance of ever returning to society again. I don't mean to sound harsh, but Andrea Yates needed to be out of the house long before any of the damage occurred. Her kids were scared of her! People said she had the look of a wild animal at times! My God, someone needs to protect the innocent people in our society, rather than slap a bandage on the mentally ill and put them back in the home. IMO


There's no danger of her ever being released.

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 04:32 PM
I was following this case as well, and my heart breaks listening to how she drowned her children... I believe she is mentally ill but I also believe she knew what she did was wrong. She called the police right after the drownings and confessed.. That tells me she knew she had committed a crime..

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:33 PM
There's no danger of her ever being released.
I am saying that across the board- once a crime of this nature is committed, the offender needs to be removed permanently.

The problem is when the ill go off of their meds...they could be law-abiding citizens right up until the crime is committed. ( I don't know the answer to keeping them on their meds.) The Mom that dropped her 3 babies off the pier in SF is a prime example.

Jeana (DP)
11-09-2005, 04:33 PM
I was following this case as well, and my heart breaks listening to how she drowned her children... I believe she is mentally ill but I also believe she knew what she did was wrong. She called the police right after the drownings and confessed.. That tells me she knew she had committed a crime..


Darlin, you just proved my point above. I think the prosecutor could find 12 people who think the way that you do pretty easily.

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:34 PM
I was following this case as well, and my heart breaks listening to how she drowned her children... I believe she is mentally ill but I also believe she knew what she did was wrong. She called the police right after the drownings and confessed.. That tells me she knew she had committed a crime..
I struggle with that too. :(

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:37 PM
Idaho mom, that is the stuff that freaks me out and why i am so protective of my little one. You never know what is going on with your neighbors who "seem to be normal" or anyone for that matter....Its a scary place for kids these days...

nanandjim
11-09-2005, 04:38 PM
...The one I do believe should be sitting in jail is her azz of a husband, Rusty. :furious:
:clap: :clap: I agree. I think that Andrea is sick and should be hospitalized. However, I think that her husband is sane and should go to prison.

Jules
11-09-2005, 04:40 PM
:clap: :clap: I agree. I think that Andrea is sick and should be hospitalized. However, I think that her husband is sane and should go to prison.

Opps, just noticed I wrote husband - should be ex-husband - or husband-at-the-time. Or how about just :loser: .

michelle
11-09-2005, 04:42 PM
I watched the andrea yates E true story this monday and i couldnt help but notice how rustys demeanor was when he talked about the children, it was almost like it hasnt sunk in or something, i remember seeing david smith, susan smiths ex hubby talk about his boys and he would bawl like a wild man, i would cry everytime i seen him on tv....

BillyGoatGruff
11-09-2005, 04:43 PM
NO WAY!:eek:


omg...has she no remorse? Why can't she just take the punishment that was doled out to her?
Since it's been pretty clear from the start the woman is clinically insane, this is actually more justice than I expected from the state of Texas. If the mom who bashed her kids' brains out because God told her to can be found insane, then Yates deserves a retrial. As it is, she'll never walk outside institutional walls again in her life. And state mental hospitals are no picnic.

PaperDoll
11-09-2005, 04:43 PM
I struggle with that too. :(

Maybe a part of her wanted to get locked up.. :waitasec: maybe she was that mentally ill... if she knew she was going to kill her kids, I'm wondering why she didn't call the police before she did it to help stop her and maybe she would have gotten some help.. I know she was showing signs of needing help and it seemed like everyone around her were ignoring it.. I can only answer for how I think I would be if I were that mentally ill... I would hope someone would lock me up from doing something so terrible... :(

IdahoMom
11-09-2005, 04:46 PM
Since it's been pretty clear from the start the woman is clinically insane, this is actually more justice than I expected from the state of Texas. If the mom who bashed her kids' brains out because God told her to can be found insane, then Yates deserves a retrial. As it is, she'll never walk outside institutional walls again in her life. And state mental hospitals are no picnic.
Her babies still got worse (killed at the hands of their mother), than she ever will. IMO