118 and the Bible

[Rupert]

I forgot the source address but this is what I found out about 118 and the Bible (of course without having checked the whole bible myself):

(1) Psalm 118 is the middle chapter of the entire bible.
(2) Psalm 117, before Psalm 118 is the shortest chapter in the bible.

(3) Psalm 119, after Psalm 118 is the longest chapter in the bible.

(4) The Bible has 594 chapters before Psalm 118 and 594 chapters after Psalm 118.

(5) If you add up all the chapters except Psalm 118, you get a total of 1188 chapters.

(6) 1188 or Psalm 118 verse 8 is the middle verse of the entire bible. Should the central verse not have a fairly important message?

"It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man." - Psalm 118:8

Is this central verse not also the central theme of the entire Bible?

If this is true, then 118 would be special to someone who has studied the bible extensively.

[Linda7NJ]

I forgot the source address but this is what I found out about 118 and the Bible (of course without having checked the whole bible myself):

(1) Psalm 118 is the middle chapter of the entire bible.
(2) Psalm 117, before Psalm 118 is the shortest chapter in the bible.

(3) Psalm 119, after Psalm 118 is the longest chapter in the bible.

(4) The Bible has 594 chapters before Psalm 118 and 594 chapters after Psalm 118.

(5) If you add up all the chapters except Psalm 118, you get a total of 1188 chapters.

(6) 1188 or Psalm 118 verse 8 is the middle verse of the entire bible. Should the central verse not have a fairly important message?

"It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man." - Psalm 118:8

Is this central verse not also the central theme of the entire Bible?

If this is true, then 118 would be special to someone who has studied the bible extensively.
Or someone with entirely too much time on their hands!

[narlacat]

Interesting Rupert, some of that information I have come across before but thanks for sharing.

[Brefie]

Or someone with entirely too much time on their hands!

I have to agree. I do appreciate your work, Rupert and thanks for sharing your findings. However, I have to think these are just very interesting coincidences. :blushing:

[Rupert]

Perhaps a coincidence. Perhaps not. The belief that 118 is the center of the Bible has been made well before JonBenet and also there was some acrostics were commonly known. So, I can see why the BPD and some linguistics came up with that suspicious connection: that the ransom note author had this in mind.

Here is the source plus some others after which support and challenge the special location of Psalm 118:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/CenterofBible/Psalm118.htm

http://christianteens.about.com/cs/sermons/a/biblecenter.htm

http://www.snopes.com/religion/center.htm

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm118.htm

http://www.bartleby.com/108/19/118.html

http://www.totse.com/en/religion/christianity/psalmcenteroft179718.html

http://prayerfoundation.org/not_center_verse_of_bible_118_8.htm

http://www.cdu.jesusanswers.com/photo6.html

Also, the Psalm 118 mentions Victory numerous times. I now think there is a good chance that the RN author was thinking about Psalm 118.

[narlacat]

There's gotta be something in it.
Just makes me think of Patsy, who I believe wrote the note. I think both her and John played a part in that.
What strange coincidence that John's bonus was 118 000 (give or take a few dollars) as well.
I've said it before and no doubt say it again, the amount of quirky coincidences that surround this case are absolutely amazing.

[michelle]

There's gotta be something in it.
Just makes me think of Patsy, who I believe wrote the note. I think both her and John played a part in that.
What strange coincidence that John's bonus was 118 000 (give or take a few dollars) as well.
I've said it before and no doubt say it again, the amount of quirky coincidences that surround this case are absolutely amazing.
That makes sense, i never heard that before.....Things that make you go , hmmmm........:waitasec:

[Zman]

There's gotta be something in it.
Just makes me think of Patsy, who I believe wrote the note. I think both her and John played a part in that.
What strange coincidence that John's bonus was 118 000 (give or take a few dollars) as well.
I've said it before and no doubt say it again, the amount of quirky coincidences that surround this case are absolutely amazing.
And would you not find it odd that PR or JR would suggest using this amount as a ransome demand? Knowing that it is JR's bonus amount.

Don't you think that the writers of a fake RN would simply choose a random figure? Like 50,000 thousand dollars?

If the R's did write the RN why would they try to point the finger at anyone in piticular? Like some one who would know this bonus amount? I'm sure they would want the RN to be as abstract as possible.

Unless you think there having fun with all this after killing their daughter.

[narlacat]

And would you not find it odd that PR or JR would suggest using this amount as a ransome demand? Knowing that it is JR's bonus amount.

Don't you think that the writers of a fake RN would simply choose a random figure? Like 50,000 thousand dollars?

If the R's did write the RN why would they try to point the finger at anyone in piticular? Like some one who would know this bonus amount? I'm sure they would want the RN to be as abstract as possible.

Unless you think there having fun with all this after killing their daughter.
Zman
Come on, of course I don't think the Ramsey's 'had fun' with the crime scene staging, I think they did what they thought they had to do.
All I know is that Patsy was a bible freak and I think they chose that figure to reinforce John's idea of an 'inside job', yep like someone who would know that amount. That'd keep the cops busy for a while because it could have been anyone that had been inside their house, apparently John left his cheque books stubs lying around for anyone to see.

[why_nutt]

If the R's did write the RN why would they try to point the finger at anyone in piticular? Like some one who would know this bonus amount? I'm sure they would want the RN to be as abstract as possible.

But that would be what Patsy did, in a Patsy-did-it theory. She claims up and down that she had no idea what John's income was, let alone what his bonus amount was. Now, this becomes absurd when you see the character testimony given by her family and friends as to how she was known prior to JonBenet's death as a woman who knew every single detail about the lives of her family and friends, down to their favorite colors and flowers. Patsy handled the finances of Burke's and JonBenet's school for the Good Fairy Project which funded the purchase of school supplies. According to the school principal, Patsy was so organized in keeping track of the project's finances that she set up a spreadsheet to track down to the penny just what supplies were needed by just what teachers in what classes. So this fake "I am an idiot about finances, I must have money because I have blank checks" mask Patsy put on for DOI and in her interviews is a patent fraud. Given that, in the real world, Patsy would have known what John's bonus was. But in the fake world of an intruder theory, Patsy wants to pretend that she knows nothing about the bonus, and therefore could not possibly have been the person who wrote the note because that number would never have occurred to her.

There you have it, then. The writer of the ransom note could indeed be a Ramsey pointing at herself, who always tries desperately to convince the world that she is not the one being pointing at. Thsi is called "hiding in plain sight," or, as the Ramseys so helpfully titled a chapter of their book, "Tell It Often, Tell It Loud."

[Becba]

118 is the bonus money for JR. It only meant something to the Ramseys. But of course they felt they were so important that it would be taken as a real threat on JBR life. The whole ransom note is to John about John's work and written by PR.

If you read DOI you will find over half the book is JR talking about his work. PR bought it that he was THAT important and they tried to put it on his job. I would put it on his fondness for little girls. He scammed PR and everyone that knew him. He was caught, his daughter died and yet he could still talk PR into covering.
Not the first or last time it happened.

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>Your only assuming about PR. Making up what you wish.<<

Geez Zman you v'e got a real thing for Patsy haven't you!!!!
Defend her till the cows come home you would!
I very much doubt Why Nutt has made anything up, you just need to do some reading on the case to learn a little bit more about Patsy Ramsey me thinks!

[ellen13]

This should be in the parking lot, but I couldn't resist::truce:
Isn't it bizarre that Patsy's attorney's name was Pat Burke. It's like pointing to two suspects in his own name, PR and BR. It's almost like a
"sign" who was involved.
It kind of reminds of the guy who sold Peterson the boat he used to dump Lacy. He bought it from a man named Peterson who was totally unrelated to Scott.
It's kind of like Vitale's husband, Horowitz, who became famous for discussing the SP case on TV and then a guy named Scott
kills his wife.
I always find it fascinating how names can be such unrelated coincidences but can almost be seen as "signs."
The last one is the "Amber Alert" for missing children. Isn't it interesting how
Amber Frey was the one who help the prosecutors for the missing Lacy and Connor.
Does anyone else out there finds these strange coincidences when they
read about cases??

[narlacat]

I don't really follow that many other cases.
That was interesting Ellen!
The coincidences surrounding this one are amazing (there I did say it again lol, knew I would).
I think coincidences are meant to tell us something.

[narlacat]

118 is the bonus money for JR. It only meant something to the Ramseys. But of course they felt they were so important that it would be taken as a real threat on JBR life. The whole ransom note is to John about John's work and written by PR.

If you read DOI you will find over half the book is JR talking about his work. PR bought it that he was THAT important and they tried to put it on his job. I would put it on his fondness for little girls. He scammed PR and everyone that knew him. He was caught, his daughter died and yet he could still talk PR into covering.
Not the first or last time it happened.Besides the BDI theory, I go with this one too.
Patsy would not have wanted the world to know she was married to a child molester.
How do you that see that playing out Becba? Just curious.....

[Tricia]

QUOTE>>Your only assuming about PR. Making up what you wish.<<

Geez Zman you v'e got a real thing for Patsy haven't you!!!!
Defend her till the cows come home you would!
I very much doubt Why Nutt has made anything up, you just need to do some reading on the case to learn a little bit more about Patsy Ramsey me thinks!

Without question, Why_Nutt knows what she/he is talking about. I don't know anyone else who understands this case more and puts all the pieces together like Why_Nutt.

Zman, search for all of Why_Nutt's posts. That is a great place to start to get up to speed on this case.

[Zman]

There you have it, then. The writer of the ransom note could indeed be a Ramsey pointing at herself, who always tries desperately to convince the world that she is not the one being pointing at. Thsi is called "hiding in plain sight," or, as the Ramseys so helpfully titled a chapter of their book, "Tell It Often, Tell It Loud."

Please help me out here. What the he!! does this even mean?

[narlacat]

Zman
I'm don't know if PRDI.
I just think she was a *****.
I'm sure she loved JonBenet in her own warped way.

[Rupert]

Yup, there's lots of coincidences in this case that could drive you batty or make you a believer. I'm not a cop, so maybe this sort of thing happens all the time.

Actually folks, I was thinkin like maybe 118 and the Bible tells us a bit about the perp. Forget about $118k bonus when the word "Victory!" is also part of the Psalm as well as the note. That means a person who is a religious fanatic who wants to "bind the horns to the alter" or something like that. Was PR really like that? Were there others with such potentially dangerous religious dogma?
Why did S.Merryman write that poem (and yes why did Patsy include it in her DOI book) about JonBenet being a sacrifice by God? Perhaps it was to provide solace that JonBenet's death had some divine purpose and therefore things were now okay. I find it weird. It is interesting that the BPD asked John Merryman to write the same words of the RN a number of times.

I just don't see any strong connection between Victory and $118k bonus. However, I do see a strong connection between Victory and Psalm 118. And then you Saved By The Cross. If it was Victory and $118k bonus, then you get a lame Send Back The Cash. I think it was Psalm 118.

On the other hand, in the movie Nick of Time the clock just struck 1:18 as the victim woke up in front of the assassin and this saved her life. The patsy perp (father Mr.Watson, like Mr.Ramsey) was being told what to do while the real perps were kidnapping his daughter. They spoke of "factions" and the victory would be won when the politician was assassinated. This was watched that night at the White's house by people we have been told on this websleuths that were Kali witches (again the religious thing). However, if it was them, they didn't leave any trace and were able to mimick the inhabitants very well.

Incredible coincidences just to name a few.

[ellen13]

Thanks Narlacat! If you ever need a break from the JBR case,
I found the Peterson case to be fascinating-I read all of the books:
Deadly Game, Amber Frey's Witness for the Prosecution, the Anne Bird-Blood Brother, and Inside the Mind of Scott Peterson. That's actually the first case I started with. At the time of the Peterson murder, I was visiting family who lived very close to the murder there and I was glued to the TV. After I moved on
from that one, I just started reading about JBR in Sept. of this year, so I'm
completely new to this case. How long have you been involved with JBR?

[narlacat]

Ellen
I remember when it happened, we even heard about it over here (Australia) on prime time news, but I had stuff going on and didnt pay much attention at that time.
I have been following it for a year now, nowhere near as long as alot of the posters here, who have followed it from the start.
PMPT was on telly and it renewed my interest.
I have read a bit on the Peterson case but only snippets. I did see Amber Frey on Oprah one time.
I am not a crime buff at all, not into all those CSI type shows and didnt expect to get taken in like I have with this one.
JonBenet was such a cute kid (even without the make up!) and has captured my attention.

[Rupert]

Please help me out here. What the he!! does this even mean?
I think it's a bit like Seraph. Charismatic socio-path?

[Rupert]

Regardless IDI or RDI, there is now NO doubt in my mind what the $118k referred to in the RN. I typed in Victory + Baptist and amongst others I found the following:

http://www.psalm118.org/

http://home.hiwaay.net/~contendr/12-15-96.html

Seraph is right about the importance of Psalm 118 to this crime. My dear aunt was a Baptist and I learned alot from her. They are good people and help support the foundations of families when they are tested. It could be that someone just got a wee bit delusional.

There are just too many strong connections. Think about it:
Christmas, 118, bible open to Psalm 118, Psalm 118 center of Bible, "bind the cords up to the horns of the alter", Victory Baptist Church, Victory, SBTC, South Baptist Texas Convention, Saved By the Cross, southern common sense, watching over, small foreign faction, Listen Carefully, charismatic movement, heart or "G" or "V" in hand is like a tattoo (taboo) ....

There seemed to be a struggle here about this time in the southern bible belt over what is the best church for God. Could this struggle which was external to the family be what drove someone to kill JonBenet? Did someone they meet despise them for their beliefs? In DOI they said they visited a church camp somewhere in the south. Did they unfortunately meet someone that disagreed with them? Certainly the display of JonBenet in parades and on stage might have aggravated someone with strict upbringing. They were involved in the Episcopalian church. Did they meet someone there that disgareed with them? Was it someone in Boulder who knew them well?

Or was this internal? I don't know. But I do know now that 118 referred to Psalm 118 and that this was all about religion and maybe a sacrifice cover up. The RN was long because it was a message.

Now, who knows southern religion and watches dirty cop movies?

[narlacat]

Well, we know who was into religion be it southern or anything else and we know the Ramsey's were into movies enough to design a home theatre for their new home, though that was played down (bit like the bed wetting issue), John Ramsey even going as far to say that he watched Speed on a plane once but the sound was down!
Good post Rupert, was the bible really open to that psalm?? I have forgotten so much and thought this was a rumour but am probably getting it mixed up with the dictionary and the word incest.

[Nehemiah]

Regardless IDI or RDI, there is now NO doubt in my mind what the $118k referred to in the RN. I typed in Victory + Baptist and amongst others I found the following:

http://www.psalm118.org/

http://home.hiwaay.net/~contendr/12-15-96.html

Seraph is right about the importance of Psalm 118 to this crime. My dear aunt was a Baptist and I learned alot from her. They are good people and help support the foundations of families when they are tested. It could be that someone just got a wee bit delusional.

There are just too many strong connections. Think about it:
Christmas, 118, bible open to Psalm 118, Psalm 118 center of Bible, "bind the cords up to the horns of the alter", Victory Baptist Church, Victory, SBTC, South Baptist Texas Convention, Saved By the Cross, southern common sense, watching over, small foreign faction, Listen Carefully, charismatic movement, heart or "G" or "V" in hand is like a tattoo (taboo) ....

There seemed to be a struggle here about this time in the southern bible belt over what is the best church for God. Could this struggle which was external to the family be what drove someone to kill JonBenet? Did someone they meet despise them for their beliefs? In DOI they said they visited a church camp somewhere in the south. Did they unfortunately meet someone that disagreed with them? Certainly the display of JonBenet in parades and on stage might have aggravated someone with strict upbringing. They were involved in the Episcopalian church. Did they meet someone there that disgareed with them? Was it someone in Boulder who knew them well?

Or was this internal? I don't know. But I do know now that 118 referred to Psalm 118 and that this was all about religion and maybe a sacrifice cover up. The RN was long because it was a message.
Now, who knows southern religion and watches dirty cop movies?

I'm from the South, a Southern Baptist, also. To what struggle do you refer amongst the Bible belt? I see no connection, but maybe you can explain better.

[Rupert]

I'm from the South, a Southern Baptist, also. To what struggle do you refer amongst the Bible belt? I see no connection, but maybe you can explain better.Well, I'm from the north and not a Baptist, so maybe you know better. I refer to the general growth of SBTC and other Baptist denominations and also the charismatic movement in the 1990's, especially the Promise Keepers who grew dynamically and started right in Boulder by Bill McCartney CU Football coach, who's son knew Jay Elowsky and who's football team seems to keep Keenan's attention with accusations by women.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

http://www.nacwaa.org/rc/rc_articlepr_coloradowoes.php

I came across an article in Websleuths which led me to understand how common it is for religious leaders to start teachning with "Listen carefully":
http://websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-23546

There was alot of challenge to the PK's:
http://www.pbministries.org/Parachurch/PKs/camp3a.htm

http://www.ilovejesus.com/worship/fbbctoledo_/index5.shtml

Of course there was the Stephen Singular findings as well and specifically a Boulder Baptist clergy involved with young girls:
http://www.vote.org/ramsey/kane2.htm

All I know for sure now is that 118 Victory is about religion.

[Zman]

But that would be what Patsy did, in a Patsy-did-it theory. She claims up and down that she had no idea what John's income was, let alone what his bonus amount was. Now, this becomes absurd when you see the character testimony given by her family and friends as to how she was known prior to JonBenet's death as a woman who knew every single detail about the lives of her family and friends, down to their favorite colors and flowers. Patsy handled the finances of Burke's and JonBenet's school for the Good Fairy Project which funded the purchase of school supplies. According to the school principal, Patsy was so organized in keeping track of the project's finances that she set up a spreadsheet to track down to the penny just what supplies were needed by just what teachers in what classes. So this fake "I am an idiot about finances, I must have money because I have blank checks" mask Patsy put on for DOI and in her interviews is a patent fraud. It's quite possible for PR to want to do a good job with the purchase of school supplies and know alot about her family and friends(like most women) yet not want anything to do with paying bills, writing and mailing checks, doing taxes or keeping check books and bank statements in order.

[narlacat]

http://www.vote.org/ramsey/kane2.htm

So Pam Griffin says that Randy Simons wanted her daughter to pose nude.
I wonder if this was before or after JonBenet had her pictures taken by him?

It was Griffin that recommended Simons to Patsy saying that when a pageant favoured the seductive look, he was the best. He could make a 6 yr old look like a 20 yr old.

[deanws]

http://www.vote.org/ramsey/kane2.htm

So Pam Griffin says that Randy Simons wanted her daughter to pose nude.
I wonder if this was before or after JonBenet had her pictures taken by him?
I can't remember properly, if it was Pam Griffin that recommended him to Patsy.....does anyone else know?Interesting letter! :eek:

[txsvicki]

There's Southern Baptist churches in every town all over the south. There's probably a First Baptist Church in every Texas town. They are not fundamentalists or at odds with any other Baptist churches and never did really get into the charismatic movement that I know of. There might have been some disagreements among the leaders of the Southern Baptist Texas leadership conventions at that time. My whole family is Southern Baptist and there's no way I could ever believe that this has anything to do with the murder. However, I wonder if Patsy grew up Baptist or was she always Episcopalian?

[Rupert]

Well, we know who was into religion be it southern or anything else and we know the Ramsey's were into movies enough to design a home theatre for their new home, though that was played down (bit like the bed wetting issue), John Ramsey even going as far to say that he watched Speed on a plane once but the sound was down!
Good post Rupert, was the bible really open to that psalm?? I have forgotten so much and thought this was a rumour but am probably getting it mixed up with the dictionary and the word incest.
Narlacat, I wasn't aware that they designed a home theatre. Did they build it? Where is it in the house? He watched Speed on the plane but the sound was turned down? Aw schucks, of all times to watch a movie when the sound is turned down. And it had to be that one. How convenient. He might well have been asleep with melatonin.

[trixie]

Narlacat, I wasn't aware that they designed a home theatre. Did they build it? Where is it in the house? He watched Speed on the plane but the sound was turned down? Aw schucks, of all times to watch a movie when the sound is turned down. And it had to be that one. How convenient. He might well have been asleep with melatonin.

Rupert, have you read Death of Innocence? If not you should. A lot of your questions are answered in that book.

The home theatre was up in their master bedroom. It had a pull down screen. They all would go up there to watch family movies while laying on the bed. Patsy would always fall asleep.

[narlacat]

Narlacat, I wasn't aware that they designed a home theatre. Did they build it? Where is it in the house? He watched Speed on the plane but the sound was turned down? Aw schucks, of all times to watch a movie when the sound is turned down. And it had to be that one. How convenient. He might well have been asleep with melatonin.
It was probably more a case of not putting his ear plugs in, it's been a while since I read that about John, I know he claims not to have been able to hear it though.
Trixie answered your other questions for you.

[narlacat]

It's quite possible for PR to want to do a good job with the purchase of school supplies and know alot about her family and friends(like most women) yet not want anything to do with paying bills, writing and mailing checks, doing taxes or keeping check books and bank statements in order.
Well, just who paid those bills when John was away? Bills do not pay themselves.
John was away alot of the time, it is not feasible to think Patsy left everything unattended until he came home.

[Zman]

Well, just who paid those bills when John was away? Bills do not pay themselves.
John was away alot of the time, it is not feasible to think Patsy left everything unattended until he came home.

I'm sure JR could take care of anything he had to before he left, most people pay bills once a month. It's not like JR was gone for a year at a time. I'm sure if PR had to pay a bill, she would. She probably just was not all that interested in doing it all the time.
As for the school supplies this would be something she wanted to do and probably volunteered. She also may have wanted to do other things for the school. So I'm sure she wanted to be known has someone who could do a good job.

[Nehemiah]

Well, I'm from the north and not a Baptist, so maybe you know better. I refer to the general growth of SBTC and other Baptist denominations and also the charismatic movement in the 1990's, especially the Promise Keepers who grew dynamically and started right in Boulder by Bill McCartney CU Football coach, who's son knew Jay Elowsky and who's football team seems to keep Keenan's attention with accusations by women.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

http://www.nacwaa.org/rc/rc_articlepr_coloradowoes.php

I came across an article in Websleuths which led me to understand how common it is for religious leaders to start teachning with "Listen carefully":
http://websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-23546

There was alot of challenge to the PK's:
http://www.pbministries.org/Parachurch/PKs/camp3a.htm

http://www.ilovejesus.com/worship/fbbctoledo_/index5.shtml

Of course there was the Stephen Singular findings as well and specifically a Boulder Baptist clergy involved with young girls:
http://www.vote.org/ramsey/kane2.htm

All I know for sure now is that 118 Victory is about religion.


I can understand your interest, and perhaps the perp was connected to religion in some way, maybe even PK or Baptist, or Southern Baptist. However, to give further explanation....Promise Keepers is not affiliated in any way with the Southern Baptist denomination, and is strictly a parachurch ministry. Also, First Baptist Church in Boulder is not a Southern Baptist church. I agree with txsvicki in that the Southern Baptist denomination is not fundamentalist, charasmatic, etc... Again, I'm not refuting your thoughts, just trying to add some clarity.

[trixie]

Well, just who paid those bills when John was away? Bills do not pay themselves.
John was away alot of the time, it is not feasible to think Patsy left everything unattended until he came home.

Patsy said in a BPD interview that she kept her own checkbook for personal use and for household items, etc. That's what she was going to write LHP's check out of. I'm sure John Ramsey did not balance and maintain Patsys personal checkbook. It seems like everyone is forgetting that John and Patsy started their business in their garage early on in their marriage. Patsy was instrumental in that. I'm sure she probably did bookeeping work as needed. She's no stranger to finances.

[Rupert]

There's Southern Baptist churches in every town all over the south. There's probably a First Baptist Church in every Texas town. They are not fundamentalists or at odds with any other Baptist churches and never did really get into the charismatic movement that I know of. There might have been some disagreements among the leaders of the Southern Baptist Texas leadership conventions at that time. My whole family is Southern Baptist and there's no way I could ever believe that this has anything to do with the murder. However, I wonder if Patsy grew up Baptist or was she always Episcopalian?
Every night I drive home from work I pass by the new Victory Baptist Church sign. I understand that VBC is an independent church from SBTC. I am not saying anyone in the South Baptist Texas Convention had anything to do with this. If you read my earlier remarks, SBCT might very well be Saved By The Cross. I do know that according to Seraph, PR was appparently into the charismatic movement (during her bout with cancer) and the Victory Baptist also the same.

Maybe it was PR pleading for forgiveness yet covering up with a fake ransom note. Hence you get kidnapping and religion.

Maybe worse it was a message from a delusional PR saying this is the sacrifice and like Lazarus she will be raised up.

Maybe it was an intruder with some kind of Baptist connection whether it be anti or posi. If so, maybe we can narrow it down further. A neighbour, a friend, someone who knows them?

I wish it was an intruder, but the facts don't seem to bat it out of the park.

This was not God's will. The child was born to have a life.

[narlacat]

QUOTE>> Maybe it was PR pleading for forgiveness yet covering up with a fake ransom note. Hence you get kidnapping and religion.
Maybe worse it was a message from a delusional PR saying this is the sacrifice and like Lazarus she will be raised up.<<

Wow, this is right up Brothermoon's alley! It is pretty much exactly what he thinks.
He still posts over at Crimenews2000.
There is a note analysis over there that explains Patsy's use of that part of the Bible.
It's worth a look :)

[Rupert]

Again I will say it that I have no doubt that $118k refers to Psalm 118. Victory and SBTC added later just make it to strong a connection to say otherwise.

Now, the only time the the RN author says why he is doing this is: "We do respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves."

So, if the we give the benefit of doubt to IDI, then
1) this is a religious perp from some foreign faction of the church,
2) who does some business with JR,
3) but does not like the U.S.

So he garrotes and then bashes JonBenet. Weird. Any ideas?

I did some more searching, but I'm exhausted. I listened carefully, but confess I still don't get the message. There just doesn't seem to be any message that stands out clear.

[Zman]

Again I will say it that I have no doubt that $118k refers to Psalm 118. Victory and SBTC added later just make it to strong a connection to say otherwise.

.If $118,000 was just a code why would the RN writer then bother to describe a break down of the bills and begin to describe the delivery of the money? I have no doubt that the writer is refering to JR's bonus. The "attache" to use and to be "well rested" added later just make it to strong a connection to say otherwise.

[Linda7NJ]

Zman, what's the deal with the attaché ? "Make sure it's large enough"........then later in the note it says to transfer the money to a paper bag? WTH? WHY?

Because it was all PR's imagination.

[Nuisanceposter]

Zman, what's the deal with the attaché ? "Make sure it's large enough"........then later in the note it says to transfer the money to a paper bag? WTH? WHY?

Because it was all PR's imagination.
Not to mention that no kidnapper ever collected a ransom in an attaché or a paper bag when they leave the kidnap victim dead in the basement. There's no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote that note. I can't believe anyone actually takes it seriously, it's so completely obviously fake. And what's up with the piddly amount they ask for? What kidnapper decides on a random figure like $118,000? Real kidnappers demand $250,000, $500,000, something more than $118,000. I'm surprised Patsy thought her daughter's life was worth such a small amount.

[Zman]

Zman, what's the deal with the attaché ? "Make sure it's large enough"........then later in the note it says to transfer the money to a paper bag? WTH? WHY?

Because it was all PR's imagination.My point is $118,000 refers most definitely to money.
It's not some code for a Psalm.

My belief is that these are more personal jabs a JR.
What they mean exactly to the RN writer only they would know. Maybe JR also.

Not to mention that no kidnapper ever collected a ransom in an attaché or a paper bag when they leave the kidnap victim dead in the basement. There's no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote that note. I can't believe anyone actually takes it seriously, it's so completely obviously fake. And what's up with the piddly amount they ask for? What kidnapper decides on a random figure like $118,000? Real kidnappers demand $250,000, $500,000, something more than $118,000. I'm surprised Patsy thought her daughter's life was worth such a small amount..
These are not real kidnappers. These were people with another purpose.

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>JR is not from Atlanta even if he considers it his familys home. He is not a born and bred southerner with "good old southern common sense" and I think it's a blatent mistake by someone trying to lay blame at PR's feet.<<


>>My belief is that these are more personal jabs a JR.
What they mean exactly to the RN writer only they would know. Maybe JR also.<<

Zman
What other purpose??
Who do you think the RN was directed at...Patsy or John or both??

[Zman]

QUOTE>>JR is not from Atlanta even if he considers it his familys home. He is not a born and bred southerner with "good old southern common sense" and I think it's a blatent mistake by someone trying to lay blame at PR's feet.<<


>>My belief is that these are more personal jabs a JR.
What they mean exactly to the RN writer only they would know. Maybe JR also.<<

Zman
What other purpose??
Who do you think the RN was directed at...Patsy or John or both??
We know who it was directed at. Can there be any doubt? It heading is "MR. Ramsey. And the practice note was headed Mr and Mrs. so I'm quite sure the writer wanted to be sure the note was directed soley a JR. This is why I'm pretty sure their were two people involved. I'm also quite sure this note is well thought out and was re-read and proof read and corrected. This is not the work of someone "faking a RN"

[Linda7NJ]

:laugh: :laugh: We know who it was directed at. Can there be any doubt? It heading is "MR. Ramsey. And the practice note was headed Mr and Mrs. so I'm quite sure the writer wanted to be sure the note was directed soley a JR. This is why I'm pretty sure their were two people involved. I'm also quite sure this note is well thought out and was re-read and proof read and corrected. This is not the work of someone "faking a RN"
Sorry, I don't mean to laugh so hard...but...come on! It certainly is anything BUT a REAL ransom note!!!

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>I'm also quite sure this note is well thought out and was re-read and proof read and corrected. <<

You are right about that much, but not by a foreign faction....by Patsy and John Ramsey.
Linda7NJ is right....it wasn't a real ransom note.

[narlacat]

Again I will say it that I have no doubt that $118k refers to Psalm 118. Victory and SBTC added later just make it to strong a connection to say otherwise.

Now, the only time the the RN author says why he is doing this is: "We do respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves."

So, if the we give the benefit of doubt to IDI, then
1) this is a religious perp from some foreign faction of the church,
2) who does some business with JR,
3) but does not like the U.S.

So he garrotes and then bashes JonBenet. Weird. Any ideas?

I did some more searching, but I'm exhausted. I listened carefully, but confess I still don't get the message. There just doesn't seem to be any message that stands out clear.
Rupert
I'm sorry you are exhausted.....we advise you to be well rested when researching the JBR case!
Did you check out the note analysis over at www.crimenews2000.com (http://www.crimenews2000.com/)?
Go to cases under investigation for the JBR forum. Tell Brothermoon I sent you!
It might make things clearer for you.

[capps]

Quote by Zman:
"My belief is that these are more personal jabs a JR.
What they mean exactly to the RN writer only they would know. Maybe JR also."

I agree.
I felt for a long time,that all these little phrases such as "get rest" and others,was put in there so JR would recognize it,and have an idea of whom it may be,but does not know specifically.I think they were put in there to give JR the heads up,that it wasn't just some crazy person off the street ... but someone JR knows.

[Linda7NJ]

Quote by Zman:
"My belief is that these are more personal jabs a JR.
What they mean exactly to the RN writer only they would know. Maybe JR also."

I agree.
I felt for a long time,that all these little phrases such as "get rest" and others,was put in there so JR would recognize it,and have an idea of whom it may be,but does not know specifically.I think they were put in there to give JR the heads up,that it wasn't just some crazy person off the street ... but someone JR knows.
Well yeah, he's married to the author!

[capps]

I knew that was coming ...

[sandraladeda]

I think the number 118,000 has zero to do with the bible.

A foreign faction is not going to use a cryptic reference to a psalm in the bible. imo

A family member covering up a murder/accident and in a panic is not thinking about being "deep" or inserting biblical quotes in a fake RN, imo. They are in CYA mode, their Christianity is the last thing on their minds!! imo

If it has anything to do with anything, it is more likely, imo related to JR's bonus.

imo

[Rupert]

Rupert
I'm sorry you are exhausted.....we advise you to be well rested when researching the JBR case!
Did you check out the note analysis over at www.crimenews2000.com (http://www.crimenews2000.com/)?
Go to cases under investigation for the JBR forum. Tell Brothermoon I sent you!
It might make things clearer for you.
I checked Brothermoon out. The 911 as a first step sounds interesting and would make sense. However, you never know, so I'll go back at that big wall and see if we can poke any enlightenment on why someone killed JBR. Gettin a sore head tho.

Zman is right to ask about the 1000 $100 bills and the 900 $20 bills. I looked for Psalm or Gospel 1:18 but nothing registers. 1900? Any bible readers here?

I did consider previously the alarm clock in "Nick of Time" which happened to strike 1:18 just as the victim woke up in the Nick of Time. Seriously people, this happened in the movie. Recall that Bill Cox watched this movie at the Whites. This is the one and only movie mentioned around the time of JBR murder and it's about kidnapping of a 6 year old. Oh, and Bromoon, the victim reminded me of PR in her red jacket.

Actually, I'm not finished yet. If it was IDI, then perhaps the perp expected JR to wake up and find the note before 1:18 am. Hence the repeat of tomorrow and early. Whatever.

[txsvicki]

Quote by Zman:
"My belief is that these are more personal jabs a JR.
What they mean exactly to the RN writer only they would know. Maybe JR also."

I agree.
I felt for a long time,that all these little phrases such as "get rest" and others,was put in there so JR would recognize it,and have an idea of whom it may be,but does not know specifically.I think they were put in there to give JR the heads up,that it wasn't just some crazy person off the street ... but someone JR knows.

JR was heard to say that "this is an inside job". I think it's a little strange that he felt that way right away, and was commenting since some serial killer could have been stalking them and been inside his home and seen the check stub as he later admits.

[Rupert]

Nick of Time, Eagle2 and Kali on Websleuths, Kali = Goddess of TIME (kali means time in hindu), Kali Martial Arts FMA Phillipines, Subic Bay, garrote, bash, Kali Stick, 1:18, early, early, early, between 8 and 10, Barnhill sees JAR lookalike, Baptists turn the cheek while Kali renews by death, Christmas, provoke

Coincidences?

[Linda7NJ]

Nick of Time, Eagle2 and Kali on Websleuths, Kali = Goddess of TIME (kali means time in hindu), Kali Martial Arts FMA Phillipines, Subic Bay, garrote, bash, Kali Stick, 1:18, early, early, early, between 8 and 10, Barnhill sees JAR lookalike, Baptists turn the cheek while Kali renews by death, Christmas, provoke

Coincidences?
:waitasec: Too deep for me:waitasec: I'm lost

[Rupert]

:waitasec: Too deep for me:waitasec: I'm lost
Either the RDI or IDI. Either the RN is collage of throw offs and pleas for forgiveness or deep with vengeful hints about who did it.

In the hopes of IDI, we have looked for clues in the RN. One thing that stands out to me is the fixation on 'time'. The word "early" is mentioned repetitively. The odd ransom amount of $118k is broken up into $100k and $18k by the $100 and $20 dollar bills, thus suggesting the time of 1:18 am as the time of death. All the instructions about the ransom money seemed to be linked to time and in order for JonBenet to see 1997 (again a time reference), they must "follow the instructions to the letter".

Now, Eagle1 has stated on this forum that the visitors at the Whites that night were involved in "Kali". I have asked Eagle1 for his reference to confirm this 'fact'. Eagle1 has just replied that he recalled this somewhere on a forum. So, we should be careful of that. If indeed they were involved with Kali, more likely it was the martial arts of Kali from the Phillipines. The Kali cult and the Kali martial arts actually go together as inspirations. The Kali martial arts are the tools and Kali is the goddess. Kali is the goddess of death and rebirth, vengeance, and time and was brought over to the Phillipines from India. Kali actually means "time" in old Hindu.

So, if IDI, the long note seems overridden with clues and one of them is "time". Even the kidnap crime movie references (Dirty Harry, Speed, Ransom) all have references to "time". Of course kidnaps all have a sense of "urgency".

Now, before the RN was made public, one of the visitors noted that the movie played that night at the Whites was "Nick of Time" which involved the kidnapping of a 6 year old girl. In fact the clock shown in the movie flipped from 1:18 to 1:19 just as the victim woke up. If the victim had not woken up at that "Nick of Time" (1:18), the victim would be dead. Unfortunately for JonBenet, time did not stand still and she met her fate. Note also, the father was being set up in that movie. If I got the inkling that it was a set-up ("inside job" as JR said), I sure as hell would get lawyered up. It's all there. Watch the movie for yourself.

On the other hand, these could just be coincidences and the Steve Thomas theory is the answer. I too am wary of the defensive twists and turns ("obfuscation" as Bluecrab calls it). However, I still don't get why there would be so little blood loss for such a head injury. Also, I find it difficult to believe that a mother with no prehistory commits a premeditated strangulation (Seraph: Psalm 118 binds the cords to the alter"). I wish there was one thing that could help me decide which of 3 things happened.

I'm not a borg nor a grob. A free thinker.

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>the victim reminded me of PR in her red jacket.<<

Rupert
It's been a while since I saw Nick of Time and I've forgotten alot.
What red jacket??

[ellen13]

Either the RDI or IDI. Either the RN is collage of throw offs and pleas for forgiveness or deep with vengeful hints about who did it.

In the hopes of IDI, we have looked for clues in the RN. One thing that stands out to me is the fixation on 'time'. The word "early" is mentioned repetitively. The odd ransom amount of $118k is broken up into $100k and $18k by the $100 and $20 dollar bills, thus suggesting the time of 1:18 am as the time of death. All the instructions about the ransom money seemed to be linked to time and in order for JonBenet to see 1997 (again a time reference), they must "follow the instructions to the letter".

Now, Eagle1 has stated on this forum that the visitors at the Whites that night were involved in "Kali". I have asked Eagle1 for his reference to confirm this 'fact'. Eagle1 has just replied that he recalled this somewhere on a forum. So, we should be careful of that. If indeed they were involved with Kali, more likely it was the martial arts of Kali from the Phillipines. The Kali cult and the Kali martial arts actually go together as inspirations. The Kali martial arts are the tools and Kali is the goddess. Kali is the goddess of death and rebirth, vengeance, and time and was brought over to the Phillipines from India. Kali actually means "time" in old Hindu.

So, if IDI, the long note seems overridden with clues and one of them is "time". Even the kidnap crime movie references (Dirty Harry, Speed, Ransom) all have references to "time". Of course kidnaps all have a sense of "urgency".

Now, before the RN was made public, one of the visitors noted that the movie played that night at the Whites was "Nick of Time" which involved the kidnapping of a 6 year old girl. In fact the clock shown in the movie flipped from 1:18 to 1:19 just as the victim woke up. If the victim had not woken up at that "Nick of Time" (1:18), the victim would be dead. Unfortunately for JonBenet, time did not stand still and she met her fate. Note also, the father was being set up in that movie. If I got the inkling that it was a set-up ("inside job" as JR said), I sure as hell would get lawyered up. It's all there. Watch the movie for yourself.

On the other hand, these could just be coincidences and the Steve Thomas theory is the answer. I too am wary of the defensive twists and turns ("obfuscation" as Bluecrab calls it). However, I still don't get why there would be so little blood loss for such a head injury. Also, I find it difficult to believe that a mother with no prehistory commits a premeditated strangulation (Seraph: Psalm 118 binds the cords to the alter"). I wish there was one thing that could help me decide which of 3 things happened.

I'm not a borg nor a grob. A free thinker.
Okay, I'm totally dumbfounded!! I didn't know they watched the movie
"Nick of Time" that night at the Whites. What is your source on that
and who admitted to that? First I'm hearing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rupert]

QUOTE>>the victim reminded me of PR in her red jacket.<<

Rupert
It's been a while since I saw Nick of Time and I've forgotten alot.
What red jacket??The 6 year old girl was kidnapped so as to force her father to shoot the governor lady. The governor lady wore a red jacket at her speach and in the elevator and had brunette hair. That reminded me of a picture of PR.

The clock struck 1:18 as the father approached the governor and was about to shoot her when she woke up. The clock then flipped past to 1:19.

Added info: Ijust couldn't resist: "get rest" = get some sleep (the alarm clock in Nick of Time strike 1:18) the victim woke up just in the Nick of Time and thus saved her own life.

(I'm beginning to sound a bit like Jeff over on Jams.) Jeff is deep (with numbers).

[Rupert]

Okay, I'm totally dumbfounded!! I didn't know they watched the movie
"Nick of Time" that night at the Whites. What is your source on that
and who admitted to that? First I'm hearing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sigh. Repeated again: See above from http://www.rense.com/ufo6/inno.htm (http://www.rense.com/ufo6/inno.htm)

Nausea Manifesto (Vincent Bridges & Jay Weidner): "The movie concerns the kidnapping of a six year old girl by an unnamed political faction and in the film the victim is told to "Listen to me very carefully!" Bill Cox, a guest that night of the Ramseys' friends the Whites, remembered watching it."


Rupert

[narlacat]

Hi Rupert

I've not had the pleasure of Jeff over at Jam's, just for curiosity sake, does anyone that posts there believe the Ramsey's are guilty? I'd go and have a look myself but I have been there once and that was enough!

I've never seen a pic of Patsy in a red jacket, or maybe I have and I've forgotten.
I'm going to get Nick of Time and watch it again.

[Rupert]

Hi Rupert

I've not had the pleasure of Jeff over at Jam's, just for curiosity sake, does anyone that posts there believe the Ramsey's are guilty? I'd go and have a look myself but I have been there once and that was enough!

I've never seen a pic of Patsy in a red jacket, or maybe I have and I've forgotten.
I'm going to get Nick of Time and watch it again.
There's been the odd one like Doc who thinks JR wrote the note and was passed over.

Red jacket: It might have been a picture of PR from a previous Christmas. Enjoy Nick of Time again. The guy/girl perps are incredibly ruthless. Christopher Walken is most incredible. Of course so is Mr. Depp.

Did you ever see Cristopher Walken do his dance video? Awesome.

Night Night Narlacat. Sweet dreams and get some rest.

[narlacat]

Rupert
Depp is the only thing I really remember about Nick of Time, hehe. I watched it when it first came out at the movies and haven't seen it since.

I like Christopher Walken, when you say dance video was he in a Fatboy Slim clip? Maybe I'm getting confused about that...

I like Docg, but I'm not so sure about his theory. He is adamant though. I pretty much think Patsy was involved somehow and believe she wrote the note.

[ellen13]

Sigh. Repeated again: See above from http://www.rense.com/ufo6/inno.htm (http://www.rense.com/ufo6/inno.htm)

Nausea Manifesto (Vincent Bridges & Jay Weidner): "The movie concerns the kidnapping of a six year old girl by an unnamed political faction and in the film the victim is told to "Listen to me very carefully!" Bill Cox, a guest that night of the Ramseys' friends the Whites, remembered watching it."

RupertRupert,
Sorry to make you crazy!! But, I really appreciated you providing me
the website. I had never seen it before and found it to be the most comprehensive thing I've read regarding all of the theories.
Thanks,
Ellen

[ellen13]

Hi Rupert

I've not had the pleasure of Jeff over at Jam's, just for curiosity sake, does anyone that posts there believe the Ramsey's are guilty? I'd go and have a look myself but I have been there once and that was enough!

I've never seen a pic of Patsy in a red jacket, or maybe I have and I've forgotten.
I'm going to get Nick of Time and watch it again.
You know, Patsy had worn a red sweater the Christmas Day
night and then again the next morning when she called 911. Is this
the sweater you're referring to or is there another one??

Narla, thanks for keeping me posted!
Ellen

[ellen13]

Narla,
I think she had a long sleeved red sweater to go over her short sleeved one.
I don't remember my source but it does ring a bell.
Ellen

[Zman]

Sigh. Repeated again: See above from http://www.rense.com/ufo6/inno.htm (http://www.rense.com/ufo6/inno.htm)

Nausea Manifesto (Vincent Bridges & Jay Weidner): "The movie concerns the kidnapping of a six year old girl by an unnamed political faction and in the film the victim is told to "Listen to me very carefully!" Bill Cox, a guest that night of the Ramseys' friends the Whites, remembered watching it."


RupertNot only do they dismiss IDI with the simplistic statement:
In the end, the Intruder theory leads only to more complications and the sort of academic stretching of a point


They then proceed to use unporven evidence and stretch their point until its thin and ready to break, making PR sound like the criminal mastermind of the century. Which we all know she's not.

[Rupert]

Not only do they dismiss IDI with the simplistic statement:
In the end, the Intruder theory leads only to more complications and the sort of academic stretching of a point


They then proceed to use unporven evidence and stretch their point until its thin and ready to break, making PR sound like the criminal mastermind of the century. Which we all know she's not.
Zman,
I totally agree with you. There is no prehistory. Just the tabloids picking up on her ambition and JS saying they are "Ruthless People". JR came from the south and basically took over as the three companies united. Either JS is telling the truth or a lie. There is no in between. It really made me wonder when JS said they were "Ruthless People" because she seemed to get along with Patsy, and interestingly the RN seems to repeat the phrases in the movie "Ruthless People" (she dies, she dies, she dies,...). Of course JMcR repeated similar phrases (she deserved to die, she deserved to die,...). All too weird.

Were they really ruthless people? I would venture to say the Father Rol Hoverstock does not agree with JS.

Did PR go nuts? If you spend time with a group of people who think she did, you will probably start to believe the same thing. If you spend time with people who think it was a cunning intruder, you will probably keep on searching for clues.

I don't care if people think I vasciilate on RDI or IDI. I might be in error some times. I have friends who say "Aw, c'mon, the R's did it!" Some times I feel that way. Other times, I think something is wrong here. Some facts don't fit.
Without some really good final evidence, it is easy to interpret circumstantial evidence either way. :banghead:

[IrishMist]

Did PR go nuts? If you spend time with a group of people who think she did, you will probably start to believe the same thing. If you spend time with people who think it was a cunning intruder, you will probably keep on searching for clues.

I don't care if people think I vasciilate on RDI or IDI. I might be in error some times. I have friends who say "Aw, c'mon, the R's did it!" Some times I feel that way. Other times, I think something is wrong here. Some facts don't fit.
Without some really good final evidence, it is easy to interpret circumstantial evidence either way. :banghead:That's what happens to me, too, Rupert. I just go back and forth, back and forth. If I read alot about the Ramsey's (I think strange) reactions, I get suspiciousof them. This case drives me nuts.

It's a good thing JAR has a good alibi, cuz if he didn't, he'd be my favorite suspect. And I wonder about Santa, but I believe DNA cleared him.
But we can take solace in the fact that no one knows for sure, or else someone would be in jail for the crime. (or on trial at the very least)

I'm sticking with my "a friend of JAR did it" these days. The only other one I wonder about, but haven't seen much info on is JonBenét's grandfather. (PR's dad)

[leann coburn]

I live in Memphis and I went to a large southern baptist college. We have one of the largest southern baptist churches in memphis: Bellevue Baptist church. The school and the church are all controlled and overseen by the southern baptist convention. Having been through their system, I have chosen different beliefs. But any type of charismatic tilt would be highly frowned upon in southern baptists.

What's the difference between a southern baptist and a northern baptist? The northern baptist says "there ain't no hell" and the southern baptist says "the hell there ain't". That's how it goes.

jmo

[leann coburn]

I think the main fighting reason revolves around whether or not to believe in a "once saved, always saved" principle. Southern baptists in general believe if one is ever truly "saved" then there is no way to backslide. Personally, I beg to differ. I believe if we go out and murder or harm others, we are not okay w/the creator. The church would say "the devil made you do it" and that you could never sin enough to forfeit true salvation. I have to say HOGWASH. Sorry to offend, but it's a lie just like saying everyone is equal. Don't ever think it's okay to say us at WS are equal to a Peterson or a Bundy or Dahmer. Absolute communist bs, imo.

[leann coburn]

So if PR did this crime to her own daughter, in my opinion there is no redemption for her without public confession of what she has done. And I don't want her to be such a coward as to make it a deathbed confession. So the prevailing point here would be that there was nothing she could do to remove the guilt from herself if she is guilty. No, no saved by the cross for her without public acknowledgement of her act. She would have to be delusional to think that she would still play any role in religion, according to her own beliefs. We all know going to the episcopal church is just an extension of the type of teachings founded in the catholic church. And all christianity revolves around treating others as we would be treated. So I hope god is more gracious w/her than she was if she is guilty.


imo

[Linda7NJ]

I always thought, according to the bible, that all sins were equal in God's eyes.

??? No?

[Sassi]

I'm from the South, a Southern Baptist, also. To what struggle do you refer amongst the Bible belt? I see no connection, but maybe you can explain better.
Ditto. I'm also from the South, a Southern Baptist, and cannot imagine myself or any other CHRISTIANS (not just Baptists) kiling a child then writing a convaluted 3 page RN with Biblical overtones encrypted in codes. It doesn't make sense.

I don't don't know what southern religious battle is supposed to be taking place down here that could be important enough to have engaged these EPISCOPALIANS in COLORADO. Even if they did formerly live in the South, this is a stretch.

Sassi

[Sassi]

There's Southern Baptist churches in every town all over the south. There's probably a First Baptist Church in every Texas town. They are not fundamentalists or at odds with any other Baptist churches and never did really get into the charismatic movement that I know of. There might have been some disagreements among the leaders of the Southern Baptist Texas leadership conventions at that time. My whole family is Southern Baptist and there's no way I could ever believe that this has anything to do with the murder. However, I wonder if Patsy grew up Baptist or was she always Episcopalian?
TXVICKIE is correct. We Baptists are not "wierd" at all. We're quite mainline. As a friend says, "There's more Baptists than there are people!"

There is nothing in the Southern Baptist faith to encourage the sacrificing or molesting of children in ANY way. Baptists are strongly rooted in faith, family, and fellowship with others. We are great people, not kooky at all. :blushing: We base our beliefs on the Bible itself and are not "ruled" by any external bodies. Each church is autonomous and makes its' own decisions.

I hope my description helps.

Sassi

[Sassi]

I always thought, according to the bible, that all sins were equal in God's eyes.

??? No?
According to the Bible, all sins ARE equal.

Could someone please explain to me why anyone thinks there is a connection between Southern Baptists, who do believe that once you are TRULY saved you are ALWAYS saved (The "once saved, always saved" theory) vs. ("Falling from grace," as some other denominations believe.) and the murder of a child in Colorado whose parents were Episopalians?

I don't get it.:confused:

Sassi

[leann coburn]

Sorry if I offended any southern baptists or anyone. My family is extremely involved with this church and all is fine. Are all sins equal? Certainly. But forgiveness comes from confession (if the sin is of a public nature, confession should be public) and repentance. So I cannot see how one would ever be forgiven if they did not confess and repent publicly. Certainly personal matters and shortcomings can be handled between the person and god w/prayer. But in my bible, public confession is called for in the case of any sin that is public enough to shed a bad light upon the church. In other words, the confession and the repentance must be as public as the sin.

But this still doesn't have anything to do with the murder of JBR, whose mother had chosen to leave the baptist church. Unlike many churches, baptists do not believe that any church will do. They are not generally open to the views of other churches, such as methodists, lutherans, catholics, etc.
So to leave the church would be a big sticking point here. She was not a baptist any more. It seems she was making up her own rituals and beliefs at this time.

jmo

[leann coburn]

Most baptists I know of refer to episcopalians as whiskopalians, because alcohol is not forbidden. They feel the same about catholics, but just add in idolatry.

[leann coburn]

Personally, I don't think it's for us to decide if one's convictions are right or wrong. I am for free will above everything else. One's own life has already been plotted, but the wild card of free will comes up. And that may be when things go astray. We don't always make the best decisions and we are often fooled by our own thoughts and the professions of others. Religion should be a place of peace and refuge for those that seek it out. All religions.

May Jonbenet rest in the arms of god this holiday season and know the joys of christmas first hand!

jmo