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mysteriew
12-20-2005, 02:29 AM
His deputies were already scouring the wooden clapboard house that was the home of Cliff and Christine Walker and their two children when Sheriff Ross Boyer arrived about dawn Dec. 20, 1959.

Boyer surveyed the grisly scene inside. Don McLeod, the family friend who had called to report "trouble in Osprey," was right. The Walker family was dead.

The killer showed no mercy, killing Cliff while his children watched, then turning his gun on them.

Boyer noted streaks of blood around Jimmie, suggesting he'd crawled to his father as the killer put bullet after bullet in his head. His sister, Debbie, was drowned in shallow water in the tub after being shot once in the head.

The Evidence

The crime scene included a bloody cowboy boot print, a cigarette wrapper from a brand Cliff didn't smoke, a print from the bathtub faucet handle and seven spent .22-caliber shells from the killer's gun.

Although no one could tell if they were looking for a pistol or a rifle, a distinct mark left by the gun on the shell casings would make it easy to identify the murder weapon when they found it.

The suspects: A litany of names and clues
http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5

This is an absorbing story. Among the many other suspects are the infamous Perry Smith and Dick Hickock. 9 pages, but well worth reading.
Additional links:
http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190421

http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/NEWS/512180667

http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?CATEGORY=SPECIAL12

gardenmom
12-20-2005, 04:23 AM
Wow, this is a great story! I cannot wait to read Monday's story. Will you link it?

Hollow
12-20-2005, 11:29 AM
Reno Evening Gazette
Monday, Dec 21st, 1959
Reno, Nevada

Osprey, Fla. (AP)- A Christmas tree glitters today in an isolated home, but two youngsters will never open the four gaily wrapped packages beneath the boughs

An unknown assailant murdered Clifford Walker, his wife, and their two small children Saturday at their rural home.

The bodies of the parents and a 3-year-old son lay on the floor not far from the Christmas tree until discovered Sunday.

Officers theorize the killer was a friend of the family who tried unsuccessfully to rape the mother. They believe the murders occurred when the father and the children arrived home from a friend's house.

The victims were Clifford and Christine Walker, both 23, their son Jimmy and a two year old daughter, Debbie.

The parents and son had been shot in the head. No murder weapon was found, but three .22 caliber cartridges lay near the bodies.

The girl's body was found face down in a half-filled bathtub and Sheriff Ross Boyer said the killer apparentely held the child under the water until she drowned. The girl had also been shot, officials reported..........

Richard
12-20-2005, 12:25 PM
...The Evidence

The crime scene included a bloody cowboy boot print, a cigarette wrapper from a brand Cliff didn't smoke, a print from the bathtub faucet handle and seven spent .22-caliber shells from the killer's gun.

Although no one could tell if they were looking for a pistol or a rifle, a distinct mark left by the gun on the shell casings would make it easy to identify the murder weapon when they found it....
This is a fascinating case, which has many suspects, many clues, and an intriguing story line. It also illustrates how Coincidence can play a part in linking, rightly or wrongly, two very similar cases (the Walker Murders in Florida and the Clutter Murders detailed in "In Cold Blood" which took place in Kansas only a month prior).

The statement about the inability to determine the type of gun is disturbing. If investigators had seven spent casings and probably fired bullets, it would be fairly simple to determine a short list of possible rifles or pistols which might have been used.

Each firearm has rifling which leave marks on the lead bullet. Some firearms have four grooves and lands, some have five, or six, while some have as many as 16. Depth and width of lands/grooves vary, as does the rate of twist. Thus it is possible to narrow down the list of possible firearms which might have been used.

Also, each firearm has a firing pin/bolt face which leaves marks on the casing. In addition, extractors and ejectors may leave marks on the cases. Thus, the list of possible firearms could be further reduced when compared with the FBI's extensive firearms data base.

The story does not state, but if the casings were found in separate places, at the site of each fired shot, it would indicate that they were ejected after each shot. If they were found all in one spot, it would indicate that a revolver was used and that they were all ejected at one time after all shots were fired.

This information would have been known from the start, yet the story speaks of various suspects owning either rifles or pistols. Why not come out and say what probable types of firearms the FBI lab narrowed it down to? Perhaps someone will know where such weapons are today. Tests conducted on a specific firearm might conclude whether or not it was the actual one used in the commission of the crime.

NewMom2003
12-20-2005, 05:30 PM
It's so tragic that these murders have never been solved. I immediately thought of the "In Cold Blood" killers when I started reading the thread. The visual of that little 3 year old boy going to his father as he was shot sent chills down my spine.

God Bless their souls. :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

mysteriew
12-20-2005, 05:44 PM
It's so tragic that these murders have never been solved. I immediately thought of the "In Cold Blood" killers when I started reading the thread. The visual of that little 3 year old boy going to his father as he was shot sent chills down my spine.

God Bless their souls. :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

That got to me too! Also the baby, which was shot then drowned. They were so young, that if they were left alive they most likely wouldn't have been able to tell anyone what happened. So why were they killed? Whoever did this was a seriously sick person.
As far as the rifling on the bullet- I wonder if maybe LE doesn't know the possibilities of the type of gun used. Maybe this was one of those things, info held back for use when/if they ever find the killer.
I am noticing a trend in cold cases. It looks like more and more LE is opening these cases up, putting more info about the case into the media, if they cannot resolve the case. But in this case they even listed the suspects, and that is unusual. I hope that by giving out all of this info, they will be able to prod someone's memory or concience (sp). Sometimes the murderers will allude to the murder years later, or even confess to it. Something like this could prod them to step forward and help solve the case.

Richard
12-22-2005, 11:50 AM
The Walker Murders - Suspects

Clay Cross
Reason Suspected: In the early 1950s, his ex-wife said he shot her with a .22 rifle. Cross had been arrested for beating his ex-wife and mother-in-law with a crowbar.
Result: His girlfriend -- his deceased brother's wife -- provided an alibi.
Mike Cutter
Reason Suspected: The Hendry County sheriff said Cutter was a "peculiar individual" who carried a .22 pistol and a picture of Christine Walker. The day of the murders, Cutter allegedly and inexplicably drove a car with two flat tires from Sarasota to Arcadia.
Result: Investigators planned to have an undercover deputy buddy-up with Cutter, but it's not clear if they followed through.

Butch Dennison
Reason Suspected: A woman told a sheriff's deputy that Dennison, who lived near where someone hid bloody clothes that belonged to the murdered family, talked about killing the Walkers. Butch's father covered for him by burying his son's cowboy boots, which had the Walkers' blood on them, she claimed.
Result: The elder Dennison passed a polygraph exam, but there is no indication that Butch was ever questioned.
Mosby Henry Fulton
Reason Suspected: Arrested several times for rape and fondling young girls, sheriff's files state. A friend said Fulton "has no principle at all when it comes to women or girls" and that he raped a woman while her wheelchair-bound husband watched.
Result: Boyer reviewed Fulton's arrest record.

Stanley Mauck
Reason Suspected: Five days a week, Stanley Mauck left his Brinks Avenue home to read meters for the electric company. Before the Walker murders, he enlisted the help of a psychiatrist to quash an uncontrollable urge to kill his wife and two small children. From the early days of the investigation, Mauck held the attention of investigators desperate to close the Walker case. Detectives learned about him from their peers at the Sarasota Police Department, which was puzzled by a bizarre murder of its own. A few months before the Walker murders, Chandler Steffens, a 22-year-old University of Florida student, was found dead in his apartment. He'd been hog-tied, his head was wrapped in adhesive tape with only his nostrils and ears left uncovered, and he was tortured with a knife for hours before having his throat cut. The "Mummy Murder," as it came to be called, is still unsolved. Police focused attention on Mauck, whose meter route included Steffens' apartment complex. The coincidences became too much to ignore when sheriff's detectives learned that Mauck also read the meter for the Walker house.
Result: Detectives never found evidence to link him to either crime.
Mauck died of brain cancer in 1997 at the age of 63. His widow claims that he was devastated by the Walkers' deaths. He used to see the kids at the house when he read the meter, and had even spoken with one of them, she said. "When he saw it in the paper (in 1959), it just about killed him," she said. "After the murders, sometimes he would get up at night, walk the street and cry." Shortly afterward, he had a complete breakdown and received electroshock therapy, she said. "He was afraid he would do something to us. He had that fear that something might happen," she said. "He would get like that a lot of times reading meters. He explained it would build up in his chest -- the fear -- and he'd get scared that he was going to die." Mary said she never knew her husband had been a suspect, but she's convinced he is innocent. "I'm positive, in my heart, he could never do something like that," she said.
Curtis McCall
Reason Suspected: Curtis, who was 21 at the time of the murders, had been one of Christine's high school boyfriends. Alleged to have carried on a relationship with her up to the time of murders. Curtis, described by investigators as a "no-good trouble-making sort of person," owned a .22-caliber pistol. Reportedly became a man on the edge after the murders, often nervous and growing thinner, apparently unable to eat. Curtis had a history of violence. Before he was fired from his job as a Florida Highway Patrol dispatcher for neglect of duty, Curtis attacked a man who had been pulled over by an FHP trooper and attacked the arrested subject with his fists and became so violent that the trooper had to slap McCall to bring him to his senses. McCall said that he didn't even remember hitting the arrested subject.

Result: Sheriff Boyer and Deputy Wade Coker interviewed McCall at the Sumter County courthouse in Americus, Ga., where he was working as a construction foreman in the early 1960s. McCall told Boyer he never dated Christine. He said he did see her a few weeks before the murder, but she was with Cliff and they had come to ask him about a horse. He said he owned a nine-shot .22-caliber gun at one time, but sold it to someone he couldn't remember. Coker hooked McCall to a polygraph machine. The results showed McCall was nervous. But after two more tests, the only response that gave Coker pause came when he asked: "Have you withheld any information from the law enforcement officers about the Walker murder?" The machine indicated that he had.
Today, McCall's whereabouts are unknown.
Don McLeod
Reason Suspected: Don McLeod, the family friend and neighbor, was an obvious suspect because he was one of the last people to have seen the Walkers alive, and he found the bodies. He was one of the first men hooked to a polygraph machine.
Result: McLeod passed the test and was allowed to leave about noon the same day.

A. Delose Smith
Reason Suspected: His ex-wife told investigators he had once talked to Christine about buying a Jeep. Smith tried to have sex with his ex-wife's teen daughter and had trouble sleeping after the murders, she said, according to Sheriff's reports.
Result: Investigators scheduled an interview with Smith, who was living in Tennessee, but he blew it off. A friend told detectives that if they wanted him they "would have to come and get him."


Perry Smith and Dick Hickock
Reason Suspected: In November 1959, Perry Smith and Dick Hickock broke into a remote ranch home in tiny Holcomb, Kan., in search of thousands of dollars they heard a farmer named Herb Clutter kept in his safe. But there was no safe, so Hickock and Smith killed Clutter, his wife and their two kids. A month later, the men relaxed under a sun umbrella on Miami Beach, where they read about the Walker murders in the Miami Herald, and couldn't believe the similarities. "Amazing!" Smith said, according to Truman Capote's true-crime novel "In Cold Blood." "Know what I wouldn't be surprised? If this wasn't done by a lunatic. Some nut that read about what happened out in Kansas."

Result: When Hickock and Smith were arrested in Las Vegas the following month, they confessed to the Clutter murders, but denied killing the Walkers. Lie-detector tests backed them up. Boyer didn't discount the men, however. Besides the similarities between the two crimes -- including a bloody cowboy boot print at both crime scenes -- Hickock and Smith had been near Sarasota within hours of the Walker murders. In a January 1960 Sarasota Herald-Tribune article, a headline asked, "Have You Seen Them?" Underneath were photos of Hickock and Smith, and a plea from Boyer. If anyone had seen them in the Sarasota area the last two months, he wanted to know. The calls came in, most placing two of the most infamous murderers of the 20th century in Sarasota sometime between Dec. 16 and 20. The Walkers were murdered on Dec. 19. In the end, the evidence wasn't there. Their fingerprints didn't match any from the Walker home. And as Boyer's men pieced together their trip through Florida, they discovered that Hickock and Smith took U.S. 27 to Miami, which would have taken them near, but not through, Sarasota. In March 1960, a Kansas jury decided Hickock and Smith should be "hanged by the neck until dead." Five years later, a hangman carried out the order.


Wilbur Tooker
Reason Suspected: Few suspects seemed to fit better than Wilbur Tooker, a 65-year-old retired railroad worker who got a $101 pension check each month and paid $75 of it in alimony. He lived about a mile southwest of the Walker home and, as the family's closest neighbor, had often visited until he made himself unwelcome because he couldn't keep his hands off Christine. Her mother told investigators that Christine "dreaded" Tooker and was afraid of him. Christine had told her sister that the only way to stop Tooker "was with a bullet." A half-dozen of the Walkers' friends and family members recounted to investigators how Tooker had, more than once, manhandled Christine, tried to kiss her and get her into bed. When she finally had enough, Christine told her husband. Cliff wanted to kill Tooker, but a friend talked him out of it. Never one to seek out trouble, Cliff warned Tooker not to come around the house anymore because he couldn't behave like a gentleman. Tooker's friend, William Hosmer, told investigators that Tooker was infatuated with Christine and constantly talked about her. After the murders, Hosmer said, Tooker went to the Walker house twice a week because he needed to "gather counter-evidence to protect himself."

Result: Detectives retraced Tooker's steps from the afternoon of the murder. He had eaten dinner in Sarasota with a friend, a retired dentist who said they ate sometime between 5 and 7 p.m. That left Tooker with no alibi between 4 and 5 p.m., when the Walkers were killed. After dinner, Tooker arrived at a Bradenton high school no later than 7:45 and played the violin with the West Coast Symphony Orchestra. Investigators asked people in the orchestra if Tooker seemed troubled, or acted oddly. He "is such a poor player that it would never be possible to determine whether Tooker played more poorly on one night than another," said David Cohen, the orchestra's concert master. Tooker died in March 1963 at Veterans Memorial Hospital in Bradenton and was buried in Edgewood, Ill.


Elbert Walker
Reason Suspected: Elbert Walker didn't mask his grief when his cousin, Cliff, and Cliff's family were buried in Arcadia a few days after the murders. Elbert wailed during the service and fainted twice, including when Christine's casket passed by him. Family members thought he was faking it, later telling investigators that Elbert had "put on a show" during the funeral. They described Elbert as "wild," especially on drinking binges when he got "rowdy and belligerent." He also fit the profile of a man who secretly loved Christine, they said. Cliff's brother, Clarence, was the most direct: Elbert was "the type of person who would commit a crime of this nature," he said. After the murders, Elbert's behavior fueled speculation that he was the killer. Elbert had been "extremely reluctant to talk about the crime," Cliff's sister, Grace Youmans, told investigators. Once, family members started talking about the murders and "Elbert got up from the room, walked out the door and refused to discuss the crime at all," she said.
Investigators considered Elbert's actions suspicious on the day the bodies were discovered. On Dec. 20, 1959, Elbert said he came to Osprey from Wauchula to talk with Cliff about a Christmas party his cousin was going to host. Investigators later determined Elbert's story wasn't true. Cliff had never planned a party because he was going to Arcadia for the holidays. When Elbert arrived in Osprey that day, he dropped off a friend at the Ohio Bar, then drove to a nearby gas station, where he approached two men. One of them noted that Elbert's eyes were red and "it looked as though he had had a rough night." "Do you know where Cliff Walker lives?" Elbert asked, according to investigative reports. The question itself was suspicious. Elbert lived at the Walkers' house for months after leaving the military in 1958, and had visited often for cookouts and family get-togethers. He knew how to get there. One of the men broke the news to Elbert that the Walker family had been murdered, then had Elbert follow him to the house. When he arrived, Elbert reacted as if it was the first time he heard about the murders. He sobbed uncontrollably, leaned over the hood of Christine's parked car and buried his head in his arms.

Result: In September 1962, investigators returned their attention to Elbert, tracking him down in Ridgely, Tenn., where he was employed as a migrant farm worker. First they talked with Elbert's 17-year-old girlfriend, Johnnie Rainey, and her brother. Although Elbert had often talked about the rest of the Walker family, he had never mentioned Christine to them. Rainey said Elbert became "visibly disturbed" when he talked about Cliff, and her brother said Elbert was "crying like a baby" as he explained how Debbie had been drowned in the bathtub. Elbert had also told him that Jimmie didn't die immediately because he "crawled up to his daddy and died," sheriff's reports say. Investigators wondered how Elbert could have known that, and reviewed every story about the Walker murders. They found no references to Jimmie crawling, just that he died "huddled next to his father."
Elbert was questioned and strapped to a polygraph machine. He passed. Again, in 1987, investigators brought Elbert to the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office and hooked him to the latest polygraph machine. Once again, Elbert passed. Elbert "is not responsible for the Walker murders," Investigator Valente wrote in his report. He added that "Elbert Walker was extremely cooperative and appreciated the active concern regarding this case's investigation."

Elbert, now 67, lives in Sebring, where he works for a private security company. He told the Herald-Tribune Saturday that he is innocent. He was surprised to learn that his own family members had told detectives he was guilty, and he had no explanation for why they would believe that. Elbert, who said he has had five bypass surgeries and is suffering the early stages of Parkinson's disease, started crying when he talked about his cousin, Cliff. "Hell, when you were as close as we were, we were like brothers more than cousins," he said. "Cliff is one of the most wonderful guys you ever met. It was such a shock to me that he could have had an enemy." Elbert said he would cooperate with investigators working on the case because he would like to see the killer caught.

Ozie Youmans
Reason Suspected: Married to Cliff's sister, he had made sexual advances on Christine. In 1931, he served two years for assault with attempt to rape, sheriff's reports say. "Whenever he saw a woman with whom he thought he could have sexual relations, Youmans would do it, one way or another," investigators noted.
Result: Passed a polygraph test and was cleared.

MyJessieAngel
12-24-2005, 12:17 AM
When I read this story, it made me feel so sad. :*(

I clicked one of the links in the side bar and saw a picture of the family. They were such a beautiful family. Those kids were just precious!
What happened to them is heartbreaking. I hope the detectives on the case now can finally bring justice to these people.

I hope you will post new links as they become available.

Richard
02-07-2006, 12:38 PM
This was a fascinating case, posted a few months back. I read all of the linked articles at the time, but have had a hard time reading them lately.

Has anyone seen any more recent articles or information?

Richard
12-02-2006, 09:40 PM
December 20 will mark the 47 year anniversary of the murder of this family.

Lisahas2cats
12-03-2006, 10:42 AM
This is the case that led me to WS. I was re-reading "In Cold Blood" and came across the bit about the Walkers. I googled their names, hoping to see that in the years after the book their murders had been solved :(

Richard
12-22-2006, 03:25 PM
This is the case that led me to WS. I was re-reading "In Cold Blood" and came across the bit about the Walkers. I googled their names, hoping to see that in the years after the book their murders had been solved :(
I remember seeing the movie "In Cold Blood" about 1967. It was done in Black and White, and it stayed pretty close to the book by Truman Capote, and to the actual case.

Robert Blake played the part of killer Perry Smith, and the movie opens with a shot of Blake as Perry sitting in the back of a bus with his foot propped up on the seat in front of him. I still remember some idiot sitting in the row behind me saying to his friend, "That's the shoe they trace him with." (Thanks a lot of spoiling the movie for others!)

The story is about Perry just getting out of prison and meeting up with his prison buddy, Dick Hickock. Hickock has a scheme to rob a "rich" rancher named Clutter, and the two set out to do that. They go to the Clutter's Kansas farm home, break in, surprise the family (Dad, Mom, Son, and Daughter), tie them up and demand that they give up the combination to a non-existant safe. Frustrated and angry, Perry Smith proceeds to kill the entire family.

The rest of the movie is about the two on the run and the investigation into the Clutter murders.

This case about the Walkers has some similarities to the Clutter murders and by a big coincidence, Perry and Dick happened to be in a nearby Florida city at the time. Did they do it? Hard to say. They certainly had the background and experience to have done it, but what would have been their motive?

In the end, the two were hanged in Kansas. They both denied having anything to do with the Walker murders.

MaryLiz
04-13-2007, 08:20 AM
One of the suspects in this case, Elbert Walker, was ruled out through DNA a year ago. It says in the article they have about 20 more suspects to try to get DNA from but there have been no new articles since April 2006 about this case. The link wouldn't work so I copied the whole article below.

DNA test results complicate 47-year search for a killer

April 9, 2006
Section: A SECTION
Page: A1
MATTHEW DOIG matthew.doig@heraldtribune.com
Memo: UPDATE: THE WALKER MURDERS

Elbert Walker has lived most of his 68 years as a suspect in one of Sarasota County's most notorious murders.

Shortly after four of Elbert's relatives were found dead before Christmas in 1959, tongues wagged and fingers pointed at Elbert. Friends, neighbors and even his own close family members thought the worst of him. He was the kind of guy capable of shooting the Walker family -- including the two young children -- they told investigators.

Today, those accusations seem to be unwarranted.

A Sarasota County sheriff's detective said that Elbert's DNA does not match that taken from the crime scene, where Christine Walker was raped before she was shot in the head.

Nearly a half-century of investigative efforts led right to Elbert, making him the best bet to close Sarasota County's oldest unsolved murder case.

So investigators brought modern techniques to their coldest case last month when they started taking DNA samples from suspects to compare with semen left on Christine's underwear. Elbert had agreed to be among the first tested.

The results backed up his longtime claims of innocence and ended the notion that DNA might offer a quick resolution to the longest murder investigation in Sheriff's Office history.

Investigators now must consider less obvious suspects who never drew the scrutiny that Elbert had.

In an interview this week at his home in Sebring, Elbert settled into a rocking chair and reveled in the idea that questions about his innocence had finally been put to rest.

"God bless DNA," he said.

Sarasota sheriff's Lt. Ron Albritton launched the DNA sweep this year following a series about the unsolved case published by the Herald-Tribune.

Last fall, sheriff's officials agreed to let a Herald-Tribune reporter review investigative files on the Walker murders in the hopes that a story might bring fresh leads to their cold case.

The stories, which ran near the anniversary of the murders in late December, described the brutal murders of the Osprey family, how the crime shocked the community and how investigators devoted their careers to finding the killer. For the first time, readers learned about many of the suspects in the case, including Elbert, an FPL meter reader and the two killers from Truman Capote's true-crime classic, "In Cold Blood."

The newspaper also arranged to have DNA tests done for free by a Sarasota company, DNAPrint Genomics, which tested a sample that Elbert agreed to provide to investigators.

DNAPrint used a swab from Elbert's mouth to generate his DNA profile. That was sent to the state's crime lab for comparison with a profile from the DNA found on Christine's underwear.

Albritton said the test results show Elbert wasn't the man who sexually assaulted Christine shortly before she was killed, a result that "goes a long way toward ruling him out as the murderer."

"Common sense says the person who assaulted her was the murderer, and Elbert didn't assault her," Albritton said.

Elbert said his days as a suspect "better be" over.

"I've done all I can do," he said. "It come back negative, and I don't want to be bothered anymore. If I can help, I'll do it. But I'm tired of being looked at that way."

From the day the Walkers were found dead, Elbert's unusual behavior made him the focus of the investigation.

That day, Elbert unexpectedly showed up at the Walker house while detectives combed the scene. Moments before, he had stopped at a nearby gas station to ask for directions to the house. That raised suspicions because Elbert had lived at the Walker house for a couple of months and had visited often.

Family members later told investigators they thought Elbert "put on a show" at the Walker funeral, wailing and fainting until he had to be carried away from the service.

For those reasons and others, Elbert stayed near the top of the list of suspects, even though he passed at least three lie detector tests over the years.

"There was always the question and doubt about whether he did it," Albritton said. "But the investigative reality was every time Elbert was approached, he cooperated in every way. He did everything asked of him."

Like many others who followed the investigation, Christine's sister heard the whispers that Elbert was the likely killer. She said it was disappointing to hear the mystery had not been solved.

"It's good to know one way or the other -- but we were all so sure" that Elbert was guilty, said Novella Cascarella. "I just want to know who, and I want to know why."

Elbert said he harbors no ill will against the people who told investigators to focus on him. But he said Clarence Walker -- one of Cliff's brothers who believed Elbert was the killer -- is "better at judging cattle than people."

He also believes that some of the people who were quick to call him a murderer need to follow his lead and submit to a DNA test.

"Anybody who's got any suspicion at all needs to take one," he said. "If he refuses to take it, he's got something to hide."

Albritton agreed with that assessment, calling the DNA test the "worst enemy of the person who did it, but the best friend of the people thrown into the list of suspects."

He said he has a list of roughly 20 people he plans to approach for DNA samples over the next few weeks. The innocent ones should jump at the opportunity to clear their name forever, he said.

"Who wants to leave that legacy behind, being suspected as the person who killed the Walkers?" Albritton said.

Don McLeod, the Walker family friend who found their bodies in 1959, used DNA to clear his name as well. McLeod asked to be the first man tested when Albritton started his DNA sweep.

Because McLeod discovered the dead family, he became an instant suspect. And some detectives over the years kept him high on the list.

Like Elbert, the DNA test showed McLeod wasn't the man who assaulted Christine.

"That's damn right. That's the reason I wanted you to put this in the paper," he said. "For all the people who said, 'That's the sum-***** who done it.' "

Cliff's sister, who knows Elbert and McLeod, said it was a relief that the test results had come back negative.

"I have really worried about that because I'm very close to both of them," said Grace Yeomans. "I just hated that they had to go through it. I just felt so sorry for them."

Update

WHAT'S NEW: Since the Herald-Tribune published stories in December on Sarasota County's oldest unsolved murder case, a string of tips have come in that are guiding investigators.

Dozens of people have contacted the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office to offer information or theories. Among them were two women from different families who said they had always wondered if their father had killed the Walkers. Since DNA from direct relatives is nearly as good as DNA from the suspect himself, each woman agreed to provide a DNA sample. Both tests were negative.

A total of four people have been DNA tested and found not to match DNA gathered at the crime scene. Among those who tested negative were primary suspect Elbert Walker and Don McLeod, the man who discovered the Walkers' bodies.

WHAT'S NEXT: Lead investigator Lt. Ron Albritton said he still has high hopes that he will solve the case. He has a list of 20 people he wants to DNA-test in coming months.

In addition, state crime lab officials have agreed to share DNA information from the Walker murder scene with a private crime lab in Sarasota to speed up DNA testing.

Elbert Walker was the prime suspect in the unsolved 1959 Walker murders until DNA tests showed he did not rape one of the victims. "I've done all I can do," he said, "It come back negative, and I don't want to be bothered anymore. If I can help, I'll do it. But I'm tired of being looked at that way."

The 1959 Walker family murder case is the oldest open case at the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office.

KarlK
04-13-2007, 04:39 PM
This case about the Walkers has some similarities to the Clutter murders and by a big coincidence, Perry and Dick happened to be in a nearby Florida city at the time. Did they do it? Hard to say. They certainly had the background and experience to have done it, but what would have been their motive?

Right, I doubt Smith and Hickock had anything to do with this case. They may have committed a horrible crime but they don't fit the profile of either sex offenders or serial killers and thus had little motive to attack the Walkers. Speaking of motives this crime appears to have been about one thing: an armed sexual assault on Christine Walker. From what I gather Christine was expected to be alone at home with her daughter at the time of the attack but her husband and son returned earlier than expected and walked in on a crime in progress.

If this is true it means that the killer was either familiar with the daily routine of the household or just happened to have gotten wind that the husband would be away for a while, maybe because he had seen him in town or heard about it from the person Walker was visiting, or something similar. In order to have gained this information the murderer would have to have been known by the victims as well as by acquaintances of the victims. Of all the potential suspects it seems to me that Tooker is the most likely but without DNA evidence I don't think it could ever be confirmed. I wonder if there is enough circumstantial evidence to warrant the exhumation of Tooker's remains? Assuming DNA could be collected from his body of course. I don't know if that's possible on a (presumably embalmed) body that's been buried for almost 45 years and may not contain any natural teeth. Back in those days most people of Tooker's age had full dentures.

I'm afraid no coroner would authorize any exhumations until every surviving suspects DNA is tested.

KarlK
04-13-2007, 05:06 PM
For some reason the links in the original post don't lead to the story anymore, it seems to have been moved here:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?CATEGORY=SPECIAL12

MaryLiz
04-13-2007, 05:38 PM
Right, I doubt Smith and Hickock had anything to do with this case. They may have committed a horrible crime but they don't fit the profile of either sex offenders or serial killers and thus had little motive to attack the Walkers. Speaking of motives this crime appears to have been about one thing: an armed sexual assault on Christine Walker. From what I gather Christine was expected to be alone at home with her daughter at the time of the attack but her husband and son returned earlier than expected and walked in on a crime in progress.

If this is true it means that the killer was either familiar with the daily routine of the household or just happened to have gotten wind that the husband would be away for a while, maybe because he had seen him in town or heard about it from the person Walker was visiting, or something similar. In order to have gained this information the murderer would have to have been known by the victims as well as by acquaintances of the victims. Of all the potential suspects it seems to me that Tooker is the most likely but without DNA evidence I don't think it could ever be confirmed. I wonder if there is enough circumstantial evidence to warrant the exhumation of Tooker's remains? Assuming DNA could be collected from his body of course. I don't know if that's possible on a (presumably embalmed) body that's been buried for almost 45 years and may not contain any natural teeth. Back in those days most people of Tooker's age had full dentures.

I'm afraid no coroner would authorize any exhumations until every surviving suspects DNA is tested.

I never really did put much credence into the Smith/Hickock theory. For one thing, when they murdered the Clutter Family, they went there believing there to be a large amount of money in Mr. Clutter's safe. They had a motive in that case. It was mere coincidence that they were in Florida at the time of the Walker murders.

I believe Tooker to be a good suspect. Someone else who I think is a good suspect is Curtis McCall. He was one of her high school boyfriends and supposedly they were having an affair at the time of her death. Also, the items taken from the Walker home after the murder were Christine's high school majorette uniform and their framed marriage license. Whoever did this was clearly after Christine and knew exactly where the uniform was kept probably. McCall also had a history of violence. But Wilbur Tooker I guess might be more of a logical suspect since the article said he couldn't keep his hands off Christine and Cliff finally had to tell him to stay away.

By the way, I never could access the Newscoast links in the first posting about this. I googled the names and found the Herald-Tribune articles later.

KarlK
04-13-2007, 07:20 PM
I believe Tooker to be a good suspect. Someone else who I think is a good suspect is Curtis McCall. He was one of her high school boyfriends and supposedly they were having an affair at the time of her death. Also, the items taken from the Walker home after the murder were Christine's high school majorette uniform and their framed marriage license. Whoever did this was clearly after Christine and knew exactly where the uniform was kept probably. McCall also had a history of violence. But Wilbur Tooker I guess might be more of a logical suspect since the article said he couldn't keep his hands off Christine and Cliff finally had to tell him to stay away.

The problem with this case is that there is an unusual number of suspects which is almost as detrimental to a case as having no suspects at all. The Walkers appear to have been gregarious people who had many friends and acquaintances including more than a few men who had displayed interest in Christine, and most of these men ended up as suspects in the case. The reason Tooker stands out to me (somewhat), other than his wandering hands, is that he was one of the suspects who was the most familiar with the Walker house, having been there visiting many times.

Another suspect who was even more familiar with the place was the emotional Elbert Walker but he was cleared quite conclusively. I think Elbert was mostly suspected because he got on the nerves of his relatives who thought he was exaggerating his grief. Back in those days men were not expected to display grief in public, maybe that's why the relatives thought he had something to hide. Perhaps they didn't take into account the fact that Elbert had stayed in his cousin's home for many months and was closer to them than other relatives and therefore was stricken harder. In any case, a propensity for grandstanding, as annoying to others as it may be, is no indication of guilt.

I suppose the reason Elbert wouldn't talk about the murder was because it affected him more than it did others. Heck, for 5 years my late grandmother refused to watch the video of my grandfather's funeral, saying the pain of that day was still unbearable to her. He had died of heart disease so her reaction had nothing to do with feeling guilty about it.


By the way, I never could access the Newscoast links in the first posting about this. I googled the names and found the Herald-Tribune articles later.

Me neither, so I googled it and posted the result.

Richard
04-16-2007, 11:24 AM
... By the way, I never could access the Newscoast links in the first posting about this. I googled the names and found the Herald-Tribune articles later.


The links, when first posted, worked well. The articles were printed in a week-long series and they were very interesting and in depth.

Many newspaper websites, however only leave the links up for a given period before archiving them elsewhere. That was probably the case here. Sometimes, after an initial couple of weeks of free access, the site will require you to become a subscriber, or pay to see each article.

Richard
11-18-2007, 08:19 PM
Bumping this thread up. The case will be 48 years old next month.

Trino
11-18-2007, 09:11 PM
Someone who would kill the children seems to me to be a suspect who was distressed/jealous that Christine had children with another man. The killer not only wanted to punish Christine and her husband but also had a hatred for her two innocent children.

kline
11-19-2007, 04:31 AM
Yeah I always thought it was an amazing coincidence Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were in the immediate vicinty of this crime.
They did too,having read about it in the paper,Perry Smith reportedly remarked to Dick Hickock that it must have been some 'nut' who read about what happened out in Kansas'.
Florida authorities polygraphed and questioned them about the case after they were jailed in Garden City Kansas in 1960,the results were decidedly negative.
I dont believe they were involved in it either.
This is a very facinating case...I certainly believe it was someone known to them and the sexual assault on Mr.s Walker was the primary motive.
Of course thats just my opinion .
But to me it would indicate the killer was someone who had the opportunity to observe and work up a head of steam over her.
L.E. was,especially back in those days, too quick to jump on the 'transient'angle probably because its too disturbing to contemplate someone capable of commiting such a crime might live in our own backyard.
Of course now we take it for granted...
Ive been researching an unsolved murder here in my hometown of Orofino Idaho from 1951 in which a 14 year old boy was found murdered beside the highway. Naked with his hands bound, having been sexually assaulted and his throat cut ear to ear.
He disappeared on his way home from the Clearwater County fair.
Judging from the coverage i've found, it would appear L.E. decided it was the work of a 'Transient Degenerate' before the body was even in the morgue.
I beleive that knee jerk assumption seriously impaired the focus of the investigation from the start..
Im reasonably certain the perpretrator was a local resident for a variety of reasons.
Maybe Ill post on this case sometime...but anyway those kind of assumptions were pretty common back then.

Richard
11-19-2007, 01:15 PM
Yeah I always thought it was an amazing coincidence Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were in the immediate vicinty of this crime....

Ive been researching an unsolved murder here in my hometown of Orofino Idaho from 1951 in which a 14 year old boy was found murdered beside the highway. Naked with his hands bound, having been sexually assaulted and his throat cut ear to ear.
He disappeared on his way home from the Clearwater County fair.
Judging from the coverage i've found, it would appear L.E. decided it was the work of a 'Transient Degenerate' before the body was even in the morgue.
I beleive that knee jerk assumption seriously impaired the focus of the investigation from the start...
...but anyway those kind of assumptions were pretty common back then.

Good points - both that Coincidences do happen and they are just that, Coincidences. And also that a quick initial impression/opinion, especially one that LE expresses early on in a case, can impair the investigation for a long time afterward.

It is much better to approach any case with a completely open mind and hold off making opinions public.

I would like to see a summary of the case you mention.

mfmangel1
11-20-2007, 02:34 AM
:( What a horrible case. What forces are at work that cause criminals to kill entire families? It is beyond any reasoning. It makes me ill. All I can do to console myself when these horrible crimes are committed, is to know that the family is together in a much better place.

kline
11-22-2007, 04:25 AM
Richard I will post a thread on that case after the Holiday is over.
Ill call it 'Lonnie Jones(the boys name) 1951 unsolved homicide' so you know which one to look for.
Have great Thanksgiving everyone.

Richard
08-05-2008, 11:11 AM
bumping case up...

Anubis
08-05-2008, 12:26 PM
Sounds like this case may actually get resolved someday as long as they got DNA from the original suspects. Sounds like a bunch of men had a great deal of trouble controling themselves where this young woman was concerned. I like how people slighted her after she had been murdered, talking about how she was such a flirt, was perhaps cheating and "like to show off her figure". It clearly shows a mindset that continues to this day: "she wanted to be raped", "she was "asking" for it", etc. The man who raped and murdered her was clearly someone she knew (who else would take the cheerleader outfit (and know where it was kept??) and marriage license? perhaps an old boyfriend from high school who had nice memories of her in that outfit and who thought that he should have been her husband; who else would kill two small children other than in a jealous rage?). Some odd things stand out to me: he raped and killed her in Jimmie's room: why drag her out of there? WHy try to clean up the mess? If the battle started on the front porch....seems it went like this: she got home, found an unwanted but known person there, perhaps told the man to leave but he lingers, after all, no husband was there; she puts the few things she has away; in reading the story, I do not know how they came to the conclusion she was on the front porch but if she were, she clearly walked out there either to shoo the man away or to escort him from her house; perhaps she thought she was safe there. He then takes action, punching her in the face in hopes he could knock her out perhaps?; they then fight; from what I understand she fought like Mohammed Ali; I believe by the time he raped her she was unconscious; he then knew he had to kill her. He shoots her, misses, perhaps because he didn't want to ruin the beautiful face of the woman he "loved" and hated; shoots again and kills her; again I believe she was unconscious as there is not mention made of defensive wounds (it is instinctive to put your hand up in stop a bullet...I have seen many many "attempted deflect" wounds on hands of people who have been shot). SO he's dragging her into the living room, unknown why, Cliff drives up. I am certain she would have told her attacker her husband was on his way. And clearly, from the wound, the attacker knew where he would come in the house and fired a well aimed shot (another indication this person was very familiar with guns). Has to shoot little Jimmie three times and then little screaming Debbie. I have to pause for a moment.......

Anubis
08-05-2008, 12:52 PM
OK, so the last bullet he has doesn't work on the baby so he actually takes the time to fill the tub and drown her and leave her there. Beyond belief, absolutely beyond comprehension to me, this act of violence.

He clearly got blood on himself from Christine and the baby. A lot of blood based on the bloody clothing founds months later in a shack not far from the kill site. It would be nice to see the path from the house to the shack. There was alot of assumption the killer was driving a vehicle based on where Christine parked her car but I never saw any actual evidence they had to that effect. Lots of finger prints, a bootprint...

I am quite surprised they have not solved this one.

gaia227
08-05-2008, 02:18 PM
wow- thanks Richard for bumping this up. I had never heard of this case before.
I don't even know what to say. The image of little Jimmy crawling to his daddy and poor little Debbie. I'm sure they could not understand what in the world was happening....and maybe that is a good thing. The cold-bloodedness of it just sends chilld down my spine.

It is promising they are still actively pursuing this case and with DNA they might be able to figure out who did it. Even if some of the suspects are still not alive LE could use their children's DNA and make a match. After 50 years I don't think it is so much about punishing someone because at this point they have gotten away with it but just to find out who did this.

Did anyone notice in the introduction to the article the reporter wrote: Today, he thinks he may be closer than ever to identifying the person who killed his relatives.

Now why would the reporter say relative? Do they have reason to believe it was a relative and not just a friend? And is it proven that Christine's Majorette uniform and the marriage license were missing?

MaryLiz
08-06-2008, 01:30 PM
I've been checking the Herald-Tribune for updates on this story periodically and so far have found none. I e-mailed the guy who wrote the original article in 2005 and the follow up one in 2006, clearing one of the relatives in the case through DNA testing. I know there were a number of people they were going to test so I asked him if any of those people were ever tested and, if so, if they were ruled out. If I get a reply I will post it here.

MaryLiz
08-21-2008, 05:29 PM
I received a reply today from Matthew Doig, the reporter who wrote the recent articles on the case for the Herald-Tribune. Nothing new to report, but there is a new detective on the case who believes it can be solved. Also, I e-mailed him the link to this thread here on WS so he can see it. Here is his response:

Mary-Beth

I apologize for my late response but I've been tied up chasing other
business. As far as I know, there have been no new significant developments in the case. Elbert and a few others were cleared in the first round of DNA testing, which I already reported. There is a new detective assigned to the case (Det. Albritton retired) and she believes it can be solved. Next year will be the 50th anniversary of the murders, so I suspect I'll write something to mark the occasion, unless something new happens before then.

l'm glad to hear the stories made such an impact on you. Feel free to write again any time.


Matthew Doig
Sarasota Herald-Tribune

kline
08-23-2008, 04:45 AM
This such a facinating case Like most everyone else I first heard about it from the book 'In Cold Blood'.
It would be a wonderful thing for this case to be solved.
Note to Richard:Ill be posting a summary of the Lonnie Jones case soon(Yes I know I said that last Thanksgiving but I mean it this time.:))

Richard
08-26-2008, 01:04 PM
This such a facinating case Like most everyone else I first heard about it from the book 'In Cold Blood'.
It would be a wonderful thing for this case to be solved.
Note to Richard:Ill be posting a summary of the Lonnie Jones case soon(Yes I know I said that last Thanksgiving but I mean it this time.:))

There were a lot of similarities between this case and the murder of the Clutter Family only a few weeks earlier. I am not totally convinced that Perry Smith and Dick Hickok weren't responsible for both. They were certainly most capable of such a murder and were in the area at the time.

Although they SAID that they didn't do it, they also said that of the Clutter murders all along until shortly before their executions, when Perry Smith spoke to Truman Capote about it and told his story.

I am looking forward to hearing about Lonnie Jones.

StealthTheory
08-26-2008, 02:07 PM
Geeze, how horrible. What is with all the stories about the men obsessed with Christine and trying to force themselves on her? That sounds like a nightmare in itself, and then people saying she was a flirt. I'd like to know what their definition of 'flirt' was.

gaia227
08-26-2008, 02:25 PM
It was a small town....she was an attractive woman and back then gender roles were very different. A lot of men were still of the mindset that they were superior and the role of the woman was to obey them. I am certain that type of mindset was much more prevalent in rural American. I think it was a man who perhaps felt like Christine was too much of a flirt and he was going to teach her a lesson - she had been coy with him one too many times..........

I have never felt like the rest of the family were the targets - just Christine. Cliff and the kids just had the misfortune of coming home before the killer could leave. He knew he couldn't get out and he knew they could identify him so he stood in front of the door waiting for Cliff to come in.

Given the indication that there was a car parked in the driveway when Christine pulled up that leads a person to believe she knew and somewhat trusted this person.

MaryLiz
08-26-2008, 08:17 PM
There were a lot of similarities between this case and the murder of the Clutter Family only a few weeks earlier. I am not totally convinced that Perry Smith and Dick Hickok weren't responsible for both. They were certainly most capable of such a murder and were in the area at the time.

Although they SAID that they didn't do it, they also said that of the Clutter murders all along until shortly before their executions, when Perry Smith spoke to Truman Capote about it and told his story.

I am looking forward to hearing about Lonnie Jones.

I believe Smith and Hickock were capable of killing the Walker family but I don't think they did. I still think it was just coincidence that they were in the area at the time of the Walker murders.

When Smith and Hickock killed the Clutters, they went to Kansas believing there to be a large amount of money in the safe in the Clutter home, thus they went there with the intent to rob. Even though they didn't find the money they were looking for, their mantra had been "leave no witnesses." So they killed the entire family. Also, I believe with the Walker murders, that it was a sexually-oriented murder with Christine Walker being the main target. There was certainly nothing in the Walker home to rob as they lived in what could be almost be described a shack. There was nothing at all to indicate that there was anything in the home worth taking. The fact that the only things missing from the Walker home were Christine's majorette uniform and their framed marriage license speaks to me of a more personal crime committed by someone who knew them. Also, there was nothing sexual about the crime against the Clutter family. If I remember correctly, Mrs. Clutter and Nancy were not molested in any way.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see Smith and Hickock, as violent as they were, as being the perps in the Walker case.

KarlK
08-26-2008, 09:44 PM
:( What a horrible case. What forces are at work that cause criminals to kill entire families?

More often than not, panic. Such murders are rarely premeditated but rather the result of things not going according to plan. Doesn't make the killers less guilty though, but in the past such circumstances allowed murderers to get away with manslaughter charges by claiming their first intent was not to kill but that they had to due to "unforeseen events" happening during the commission of the crime (such as in this case case, rape). Public outcry over such technicalities eventually lead to legal reforms that lead to the creation of a new capital charge, known as felony murder, which allows charging individuals who kill while committing a different offense (robbery, rape, etc.) with first-degree murder even if the murder itself was not premeditated.

KarlK
08-26-2008, 10:16 PM
And clearly, from the wound, the attacker knew where he would come in the house and fired a well aimed shot (another indication this person was very familiar with guns). Has to shoot little Jimmie three times and then little screaming Debbie. I have to pause for a moment.......

I tend to think he wasn't that familiar with guns. The number of shots fired make it likely that the weapon used was a standard revolver rather than a rifle or LR pistol, and if you intend to kill someone using .22 rounds you will use a rifle or LR pistol (it's a long-barreled pistol than can fire .22 Long Rifle rounds) because a tiny .22 revolver has very little muzzle velocity, it's basically designed for target practice. Back in the '50's it wasn't even considered a "real" gun and was sold to anyone at general stores alongside BB guns. This was a very common household item in rural Florida at the time, used to shoot vermin like snakes and rodents. Or even alligators, but with little effect. That's probably the reason why ballistics were of no use in the investigation, with so many such guns in circulation testing would have been an exercise in futility.

OilPainter
09-04-2008, 02:15 PM
Am I the only one who gets the heebie-jeebies in broad daylight after reading stories like this?

I just put on the security alarm. It's 2:13, sunny, 78 degrees and I'm freezing cold.

gaia227
09-05-2008, 09:59 AM
Am I the only one who gets the heebie-jeebies in broad daylight after reading stories like this?

I just put on the security alarm. It's 2:13, sunny, 78 degrees and I'm freezing cold.

No! Fortunately I am usually at work when I reading cases like this. The heebie-jeebies come later when I am home alone, in bed and it is all quiet and I get up 15 times to check the doors and windows and every little noise I have to investigate. Thank god my fiance is with me most all the time. If he is there I fear not.

reportertype
10-26-2008, 02:42 AM
Did anyone notice in the introduction to the article the reporter wrote: Today, he thinks he may be closer than ever to identifying the person who killed his relatives.

Now why would the reporter say relative? Do they have reason to believe it was a relative and not just a friend? And is it proven that Christine's Majorette uniform and the marriage license were missing?

I believe that top reference is to Det. Albritton, who is related to the Walkers. According to the story, Christine's mother is the person who said the uniform was missing. Family members also say the marriage cert. was gone from its usual place on the wall.

And I shouldn't read this stuff at night!

Laura_Bean
11-07-2008, 07:16 PM
2 scenarios

Christine has a male friend for company because she is lonely. Her husband gets into a fight with the guy after finding out, the story of her husband almost getting killed fighting with someone is about her lover. She has the guy come to the house because her husband and children will be out and he can't take the rejection.

Or same thing up until the guy comes over. He comes over she rejects him, her husband comes home as her lover is leaving, loses his mind, and rapes his own wife, shoots her, and than turns the gun on the children and than himself. Perhaps his friend took the gun out of his hand to cover up what his friend did. Perhaps he doesn't want anyone to believe his friend was capable of murdering his own family.

Laura_Bean
11-07-2008, 07:23 PM
And respectfully here, what causes someone to kill an entire family? Sometimes panic but more often than that, PERSONAL. Think personal. He took the marriage certificate. That's personal. He killed the children. That's personal. If someone goes into a house that has two cats and an old woman, and the man kills the woman because she refuses to show him where she keeps her stash of cash, and than leaves without harming a flea on her cats, welp, it isn't personal. But if he goes into the house shoots her and the cats, we know it is personal. The small children probably would have been left alive had it been an impersonal act.

Laura_Bean
11-07-2008, 07:24 PM
Oh and the outfit being taken. That was definitly personal. I have a really good idea though. Can we get a picture of that uniform? He took it for a reason. If we knew what it looked like, it could certainly help us.

kline
11-09-2008, 06:22 AM
Perry Smith and Hickock almost got into fist fight at the Clutter House because Smith wouldnt allow Hickock to rape Nancy Clutter.
In Smith's warped way of looking at things though he was willing to fight to keep her from being assaulted however he had no problem shortly thereafter blowing a hole through the back of her head with a shotgun while she pleaded for her life.
Though certainly both of them were capable of killing anyone if that person had something they wanted I dont think it was anything more then an extrordinary coincidence that they were in the immediate vicinity.
I mean after all in the six weeks following the Clutter Murders they were kind of all over the place.
From Kansas to Mexico.California across Nevada and Wyoming to Nebraska and Iowa.Then Back to Kansas then the Southern States and Florida,then on to Texas...apparently if you waited long enough in 1959 'The Dick And Perry Tour' would be at a city near you eventually.
Mr.s Walker to me was clearly the primary target.
Someone mentioned how social mores were different then.
I cant help but think of a couple of incidents when I was very young in the mid 60's and the small town we lived in.
My mother was in her mid 20's at the time and attractive.
I remember one local citizen in good standing who gave us a ride from the post office while my father was at work and another who stopped by our house on some pretext who both made physical advances and I remember my mother sending them packing with threats to tell my father.
That kind of'wolf' like agressiveness was more common in those days.
And a young woman in a small community could be the target of all kinds of unwanted attention that a woman of today wouldnt begin to put up with and morons who indulged in such behavior would be looking at prosecution.
The few pictures of Mr.s Walker ive seen show she was an uncommonly attractive lady even by todays standards and I dont doubt was the focus of more then one local horndog.
However how many of them could there have been?
Surely someone spun enough over her to rape her and take trophies of such a personal nature like that must have been obsessive enough that others must have known about the fixation?
And I would be willing to bet whoever it was saw her in that Majorette Uniform in school.
Im sure there was a list of candidates but it must have been relatively short...

Sporky
04-23-2009, 11:25 AM
I have never heard of this until I read this thread. This is crazy and so very sad. I really hope that the new advances with DNA will nab the person who did this.

Richard
11-02-2009, 01:14 AM
This December will mark the 50th anniversary of this case. Has anyone seen any recent articles or information on it?

MaryLiz
11-02-2009, 08:18 AM
This December will mark the 50th anniversary of this case. Has anyone seen any recent articles or information on it?


Richard, I e-mailed the reporter who wrote the story that appeared in the Herald-Tribune in 2005 to see if he was going to write an anniversary article. I haven't heard back from him yet. But the last time I e-mailed him to find out if any of the DNA they tested matched anyone, it took him quite a while to respond. He said last year in August 2008 when he responded to the DNA question that he would probably write an anniversary article unless something happened before that. (See post #30 on this page). I'll be sure to post on here if and when I hear back from him.

gaia227
11-02-2009, 01:39 PM
I did a search and it appears that there has been no recent press about this case. We still have about a month and a half to go until the 50 year mark.

wfgodot
11-09-2009, 07:49 PM
50th anniversary of the similar Clutter case next week, 15 November 2009; AP article:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1558129.html

MaryLiz
11-09-2009, 11:40 PM
50th anniversary of the similar Clutter case next week, 15 November 2009; AP article:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1558129.html

Thanks for linking that article.

I was actually thinking of this last week, about the 50th anniversary. I was going to post something about it on their thread but they don't seem to have one on here. There's just a thread about the Clutter house being for sale last year.

Richard
11-09-2009, 11:52 PM
50th anniversary of the similar Clutter case next week, 15 November 2009; AP article:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1558129.html

Good article. Thanks for the link.

gaia227
11-10-2009, 11:15 AM
Here is another article in the AZ Daily Sun published today. It mentions both the Walker and Clutter murders.

http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/11/10/news/20091110_front_207176.txt

MaryLiz
11-10-2009, 11:52 AM
Here is another article in the AZ Daily Sun published today. It mentions both the Walker and Clutter murders.

http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/11/10/news/20091110_front_207176.txt

Thankg gaia, this is a good article too. I still disagree about Smith and Hickock killing the Walker family. Normally, I would be the first to jump on the fact that "since they were seen around town, they must have done it." But to me, the only way they committed the murders is if they just happened on the Walker home and did it for a thrill kill if they were drunk or high. It just doesn't add up to me.

They killed the Clutter family because they thought there was a safe there. They were clearly after money. The Walker family was dirt poor and had virtually nothing and even lived in somewhat of a shack. To me, the Walker murder was personal. There was no shortage of suspects who had the hots for Christine Walker - Elbert Walker (who was ruled out by DNA), Wilbur Tooker, Curtis McCall, to name a few, and when you look at the only items taken from the home - her majorette uniform and Cliff and Christine's framed marriage license - that just sounds too personal to me. I admit, it's quite a coincidence that Smith and Hickock were in Florida at that time, but I just see the perp in the Walker murders as someone who knew the family, and went there with the intention of raping Christine.

scriptgirl
11-12-2009, 02:35 PM
Where are you guys finding out that Christine's majorette uniform was taken? Did she grow up and go to high school in the area?

MaryLiz
11-12-2009, 03:57 PM
Where are you guys finding out that Christine's majorette uniform was taken? Did she grow up and go to high school in the area?

It was somewhere in that extensive article written for the Herald-Tribune in 2005. I'll look through it tonight and see if I can find where it says that and post the link.

wfgodot
11-12-2009, 04:28 PM
Where are you guys finding out that Christine's majorette uniform was taken? Did she grow up and go to high school in the area?

Here's the Sarasota Herald Tribune case file link; it has the three articles: http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?CATEGORY=SPECIAL12

It also has pictures, audio, video, links to original 1959 articles, etc. Highly interesting.

The majorette uniform detail is from the second story in the series, "The suspects: a litany of names and clues," the section entitled 'The Theory,' fourth and fifth paragraphs:

"Collins remembered how her daughter proudly pulled her high school majorette uniform out of the chest to show it off to friends and family. Christine always said she was saving it for her daughter, Debbie.

"But when Collins opened the chest, the only thing inside was an empty plastic bag."

scriptgirl
11-12-2009, 05:02 PM
Thanks!

MaryLiz
11-12-2009, 05:21 PM
Here's the Sarasota Herald Tribune case file link; it has the three articles: http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?CATEGORY=SPECIAL12

It also has pictures, audio, video, links to original 1959 articles, etc. Highly interesting.

The majorette uniform detail is from the second story in the series, "The suspects: a litany of names and clues," the section entitled 'The Theory,' fourth and fifth paragraphs:

"Collins remembered how her daughter proudly pulled her high school majorette uniform out of the chest to show it off to friends and family. Christine always said she was saving it for her daughter, Debbie.

"But when Collins opened the chest, the only thing inside was an empty plastic bag."

Thank you, wfgodot...I didn't have time to look for it until later tonight. I knew I saw it somewhere in there! :)

wfgodot
11-12-2009, 05:27 PM
Thank you, wfgodot...I didn't have time to look for it until later tonight. I knew I saw it somewhere in there! :)

No problem, Cambria and scriptgirl, I happened to be reading the articles on that link and checked over here and found the question. Good timing on everyone's part! Happy to do it. Fascinating case.

Richard
11-13-2009, 12:13 AM
Perry and Dick certainly were capable of murdering a whole family in cold blood. And they were in the very close vicinity to the Walker home. Hopefully DNA testing can be done which will help to determine if they were involved.

The problem with trying to use logic to connect them or rule them out is that their logic system was something out of the Bizarro World. What is known for certain is that they were a matched pair of dirtbags who would kill for the slightest "reason".

MaryLiz
11-13-2009, 08:29 AM
Perry and Dick certainly were capable of murdering a whole family in cold blood. And they were in the very close vicinity to the Walker home. Hopefully DNA testing can be done which will help to determine if they were involved.

The problem with trying to use logic to connect them or rule them out is that their logic system was something out of the Bizarro World. What is known for certain is that they were a matched pair of dirtbags who would kill for the slightest "reason".

I agree they were certainly capable of killing the Walker family. And like I said above, they could very well have done it if they came across the Walker home and did it on the spur of the moment. I guess I just wasn't seeing that many similarities in the crime, considering the Clutters were wealthy and the Walkers weren't, and Dick and Perry went to the Clutter home looking for a safe containing $10,000. But I do agree Dick and Perry were sick enough to have committed both crimes.

In one of the articles from the Herald-Tribune (from 2006, I think) they listed several people who they were going to do DNA testing on. In August 2008, I e-mailed the reporter who wrote the original stories on the Walker family. I posted his reply on another page of this thread, but here it is again:

Mary-Beth

I apologize for my late response but I've been tied up chasing other
business. As far as I know, there have been no new significant developments in the case. Elbert and a few others were cleared in the first round of DNA testing, which I already reported. There is a new detective assigned to the case (Det. Albritton retired) and she believes it can be solved. Next year will be the 50th anniversary of the murders, so I suspect I'll write something to mark the occasion, unless something new happens before then.

l'm glad to hear the stories made such an impact on you. Feel free to write again any time.


Matthew Doig
Sarasota Herald-Tribune

I wrote him again just recently to see if there were new developments, and if he was still planning to write the 50th anniversary story but I haven't gotten a reply yet. I check the news updates regularly on this case and there haven't been any. I too wish something would come back from the DNA testing!

wfgodot
11-13-2009, 11:57 AM
An interesting Kansas City Star 50th anniversary story in re: the Clutter murders:

Lead:
Sixteen-year-old Diana Selsor had just come back from a beach party and was home alone in Palatka, Fla., that Sunday afternoon. So it was she, not her parents, who opened the shocking note police had left with a neighbor.

“It said, ‘Four members of the Clutter family killed in Holcomb, Kansas.’ There was a number to call.”

http://www.kansascity.com/637/story/1567276.html

And here's the direct link to the essay mentioned in the above story:

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/1566961.html

The essay is by a first cousin of the Clutter family and is the first time a family member has spoken publicly about the murders in fifty years. In it, Diana Selsor Edwards puts a human face on her uncle, aunt, and two cousins, one she felt was sorely lacking in the Capote book.

scriptgirl
11-13-2009, 12:48 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the mania in trying to link famous killers, Zodiac, the killers of the Clutter family, etc to every crime on this board. I think in this case, it is seems to be very apparent that the killer of the Walkers knew them and seemed to have a jones for Christine.

wfgodot
11-13-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the mania in trying to link famous killers, Zodiac, the killers of the Clutter family, etc to every crime on this board. I think in this case, it is seems to be very apparent that the killer of the Walkers knew them and seemed to have a jones for Christine.

I agree that the Walkers were killed by someone who knew them and that Christine was the primary target and rape the initial motive. However, the Clutter family's killers were in Florida at the time and, of course, had proven capable of heinous acts.

I just posted the Clutter links here because there's not a thread devoted to their 1959 killings, nor, after the fiftieth anniversary articles run their course, is their likely ever to be a need for one. The essay by the cousin is must-read stuff in that it does provide a look into the human cost of quadruple murders like those of the Clutters and the Walkers, within just over a month of one another, in 1959.

scriptgirl
11-13-2009, 03:48 PM
I don't think the killer was the dirty old man-Toomer or whatever his name was. Did he like to put his hands where he shouldn't? Yes, but I don't think that makes him a killer. He seems to have been just that-a dirty old man.

I think the killer was that MCall guy that no one knows the whereabouts of.

Now, I have a few questions:

Is it for sure that Christine was having affairs? Had she grown up in that area? Had Cliff?
Also, is the area much changed since the time the crime occurred? Is the house still standing? Have any WS members been there? Are there pics of it?

wfgodot
11-13-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't think the killer was the dirty old man-Toomer or whatever his name was. Did he like to put his hands where he shouldn't? Yes, but I don't think that makes him a killer. He seems to have been just that-a dirty old man.

I think the killer was that MCall guy that no one knows the whereabouts of.

Now, I have a few questions:

Is it for sure that Christine was having affairs? Had she grown up in that area? Had Cliff?
Also, is the area much changed since the time the crime occurred? Is the house still standing? Have any WS members been there? Are there pics of it?

As of the 2005 articles cited above, "The house where the family died is now just piles of debris hidden in woods that soon could be overtaken by housing developments."

I think it's documented by statements from family and others that Christine did like attention to be paid to her by men. But, per the Herald Tribune articles, possible affairs are just rumors.

I'm under the impression that both were from the area; Christine attended Arcadia High School (where she was a majorette) and both had family in the Arcadia/Sarasota area.

Cliff had evidently been in a fight the Thursday before the murders, but the article does not tell us more. Christine told her mother-in-law and a store owner about the fight, but not the other participant(s).

I'd say the killer was the person who fought with Cliff, whomever that might be.

scriptgirl
11-13-2009, 04:55 PM
I really need to pay more attention when I read. I think a big part of the reason this case hasn't been solved is the time period. This was a time period when you did not put your business in the street and when you didn't talk about certain things.

wfgodot
11-13-2009, 05:00 PM
I really need to pay more attention when I read. I think a big part of the reason this case hasn't been solved is the time period. This was a time period when you did not put your business in the street and when you didn't talk about certain things.

That's okay, I had to re-look it up and I'd just read it yesterday, lol. Also, I assumed Arcadia and Sarasota were quite close together, but Map Quest shows they're nearly fifty miles apart.

MaryLiz
11-13-2009, 06:44 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the mania in trying to link famous killers, Zodiac, the killers of the Clutter family, etc to every crime on this board. I think in this case, it is seems to be very apparent that the killer of the Walkers knew them and seemed to have a jones for Christine.

Oddly, there is no thread for the Clutters on WS except for the one below.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75064&highlight=Clutter+House+Sale

wfgodot
11-13-2009, 07:01 PM
Oddly, there is no thread for the Clutters on WS except for the one below.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75064&highlight=Clutter+House+Sale

Yes, especially since "In Cold Blood" is the first true crime book many of us of a certain age ever read. And it also basically invented a new genre of writing---the so-called "non-fiction novel." I lived in Kansas at the time of the murders, and it was a huge deal in our quiet state.

MaryLiz
12-02-2009, 09:40 AM
Bumping...

Later this month it will be 50 years since this horrible tragedy occurred. I haven't heard back from the reporter at the Herald-Tribune, and there has yet to be a 50th anniversary article published, but I expect there will be one closer to the actual anniversary date of 12/19.

scriptgirl
12-02-2009, 01:19 PM
I hope there will be. This case deserves to be solved. Whenever I think of that little boy crawling to his daddy, my eyes well up

gaia227
12-02-2009, 02:45 PM
I know this isn't a Clutter thread but I am going to put up the link anyway. This was published in 2005 and has tons of information, interviews with the surviving Clutter sisters, Nancy's BF, and a bunch of other stuff. Pretty interesting.
http://www.ljworld.com/specials/incoldblood/

scriptgirl
12-02-2009, 05:11 PM
Can't the Clutters have a seperate thread. I mean this thread is about the Walker family and the Clutters aren't a cold case

wfgodot
12-02-2009, 05:44 PM
I know this isn't a Clutter thread but I am going to put up the link anyway. This was published in 2005 and has tons of information, interviews with the surviving Clutter sisters, Nancy's BF, and a bunch of other stuff. Pretty interesting.
http://www.ljworld.com/specials/incoldblood/

Thanks for this link, gaia227; insight into quadruple murderers who killed in 1959 is helpful to the Walker case as well, particularly those who were known to be in Florida when the family was murdered within a month of the Kansas crimes.

scriptgirl
12-02-2009, 05:54 PM
I'm sorry, I don't think the people who did in The Clutters killed the Walkers, esp when you consider that Walker's marriage certificate and Christine's majorette uniform disappeared. That screams personal to me. Like I said, the Clutter case info doesn't belong in this thread. I think people love to tie in known killers to other cases.

MaryLiz
12-20-2009, 06:45 AM
Bumping..yesterday was the 50th anniversary of this tragedy. I'm very surprised that there is no article marking the event in the Sarasota Herald-Tribune either.

gaia227
12-21-2009, 02:11 PM
I don't think anyone here is saying the same people who killed the Walkers killed the Clutters. They are often compared to one another because of the proximity in time and the similarites (both being multiple homicides). Studying one case can provide insights into another, that's all.

I certainly don't think there is any connection between the two as far as suspects. I agree that whoever murdered the Walkers most-likely was a friend or acquaintence, Christine was the target and her husband and children were collateral damage (excuse the term). It is sad they were not remembered on the 50th anniversary of their murders. I checked again today and there is nothing. At least this one small group remembers them.

Jenny60123
08-26-2010, 03:42 PM
His deputies were already scouring the wooden clapboard house that was the home of Cliff and Christine Walker and their two children when Sheriff Ross Boyer arrived about dawn Dec. 20, 1959.

Boyer surveyed the grisly scene inside. Don McLeod, the family friend who had called to report "trouble in Osprey," was right. The Walker family was dead.

The killer showed no mercy, killing Cliff while his children watched, then turning his gun on them.

Boyer noted streaks of blood around Jimmie, suggesting he'd crawled to his father as the killer put bullet after bullet in his head. His sister, Debbie, was drowned in shallow water in the tub after being shot once in the head.

The Evidence

The crime scene included a bloody cowboy boot print, a cigarette wrapper from a brand Cliff didn't smoke, a print from the bathtub faucet handle and seven spent .22-caliber shells from the killer's gun.

Although no one could tell if they were looking for a pistol or a rifle, a distinct mark left by the gun on the shell casings would make it easy to identify the murder weapon when they found it.

The suspects: A litany of names and clues
http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5

This is an absorbing story. Among the many other suspects are the infamous Perry Smith and Dick Hickock. 9 pages, but well worth reading.
Additional links:
http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190421

http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/NEWS/512180667

http://www.newscoast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?CATEGORY=SPECIAL12

I am surprised at the number of suspects and that it seems to not have really gone anywhere. So sad. An entire family, gone. Rest in peace.

SunnieRN
08-28-2010, 02:13 AM
I wonder if any more DNA testing has been done? Seems that the case could be wide opened by testing the suspects.

Kat
08-28-2010, 02:39 AM
The bloody cowboy boot:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?p=6&tc=pg&AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5


One promising clue, a bloody cowboy boot print, was found near a gas heater in the Walkers' living room. Investigators believed it was the killer's, left behind when he waited to shoot Cliff as he walked through the door.

Years later, they learned the print belonged to a careless deputy who had stepped in a puddle of blood.

MaryLiz
08-28-2010, 01:18 PM
About two years back, I e-mailed the guy who wrote the huge article in 2005 for the Sarasota Herald-Tribune. He responded and said they were still working on the DNA evidence. I then wrote to him twice toward the end of 2009 and asked if there were any more DNA results, or if the Herald-Tribune was planning an article to mark the 50th anniversary. I never heard back from him and haven't seen any updated articles since 2006. IIRC, the article in 2006 cleared either one or two of the long list of suspects, but I would have to find the article and read it again. I really can't believe there wasnt an article written last December at the 50th anniversary.

Richard
11-30-2010, 11:11 PM
December 2010 will mark the 51 year anniversary of this tragic murder of a family. It remains unsolved.

MaryLiz
12-01-2010, 09:49 AM
December 2010 will mark the 51 year anniversary of this tragic murder of a family. It remains unsolved.

I wish the newspaper would do an updated story to let us know if any more people have been cleared through DNA. I was really surprised there wasn't a 50th anniversary story done last year. Even if there is no news on the DNA, at least another feature story on the murders would put it back in the public eye for a while.

kline
12-04-2010, 07:10 AM
I'm sorry, I don't think the people who did in The Clutters killed the Walkers, esp when you consider that Walker's marriage certificate and Christine's majorette uniform disappeared. That screams personal to me. Like I said, the Clutter case info doesn't belong in this thread. I think people love to tie in known killers to other cases.
Yeah, the reason the two crimes are linked in peoples minds is only because of the extremely weird coincindence that Perry Smith and Dick Hickock the two Clutter family killers just happened to be in town the same night another family of four was murdered with a gun.
Authorities gave them both a thorough going over after their arrest in Las Vegas and extradition back to Garden City Kansas and completely cleared both of them of any involvement.
And yes an update on the status of this case is way over due.
At least to me its obvious the killer had a very personal fix on Mr.s Walker ,im sure many did from the photos ive seen she was very attractive.
One wouldnt have thought it difficult in such a relatively rural area to winnow out someone who's attraction to her had crossed the line but obviously that wasnt the case.

MaryLiz
12-04-2010, 11:54 PM
Yeah, the reason the two crimes are linked in peoples minds is only because of the extremely weird coincindence that Perry Smith and Dick Hickock the two Clutter family killers just happened to be in town the same night another family of four was murdered with a gun.
Authorities gave them both a thorough going over after their arrest in Las Vegas and extradition back to Garden City Kansas and completely cleared both of them of any involvement.
And yes an update on the status of this case is way over due.
At least to me its obvious the killer had a very personal fix on Mr.s Walker ,im sure many did from the photos ive seen she was very attractive.
One wouldnt have thought it difficult in such a relatively rural area to winnow out someone who's attraction to her had crossed the line but obviously that wasnt the case.

I agree on both counts...I don't think Smith and Hickock had anything to do with the Walker murders..but what an odd coincidence that they were in that area at the time the Walkers were killed. And I too believe this was a very personal crime that had everything to do with Christine Walker. I just can't believe they haven't been able to get this solved with the DNA.

justthinkin
01-01-2011, 05:31 AM
The bloody cowboy boot:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?p=6&tc=pg&AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5

Does that strike anyone else as odd? When they say years, I wonder how many? That deputy had to have held onto those boots for sometime. Seems like it would have been caught very early on. Wouldn't they have double checked that initially to make sure the footprint didn't belong to any of them?

I'm afraid I'd have to question that deputy about his whereabouts on the day the Walkers were murdered.

justthinkin
01-01-2011, 08:06 PM
Some random thoughts...

With this kind of murder, it would seem unlikely this was a first for the killer. However, I can't imagine why the killer would take Christine's majorette uniform unless he had gone to school with her, and that's where he first set his eyes on her. That outfit has to be really symbolic to the killer. JMO. Same with the marriage license hanging on the wall. These are some strange souvenirs. The majorette costume wouldn't have meant anything to a stranger.

I would eliminate Tooker as a suspect after Cliff telling his friend he wanted to kill Tooker. I believe if Cliff had seen Tooker's vehicle at his house that day, there is no way he would have left his own gun in the cab of his jeep. I think he would've gone in prepared to take Tooker out.

I have tried to locate an A. Delose Smith via white pages and the SSDI. Both turned up nothing. I did locate another Delose or Deloose Smith on SSDI, but with a different first intial. I also searched for anyone by the name Delose Smith having been arrested for anything, and that too turned up nada.

justthinkin
01-01-2011, 08:16 PM
Why do you think the killer was in the process of dragging Christine's body from the bedroom where she was killed to the living room?

gaia227
01-06-2011, 06:24 PM
Why do you think the killer was in the process of dragging Christine's body from the bedroom where she was killed to the living room?

Has it been established she was dragged from the bedroom to the living room? I can't remember reading that.
If that is the case then maybe to put her in the room with the rest of her family. Why? Perhaps the perp wanted to cover up the fact that she was sole target or that it was sexually motivated. If the killer did know her personally and had feelings for her it seems logical after she was dead he wanted to put her in the living room with her children - out of respect, as morbid and twisted as that sounds.

grace60
01-08-2011, 09:58 PM
I wish the newspaper would do an updated story to let us know if any more people have been cleared through DNA. I was really surprised there wasn't a 50th anniversary story done last year. Even if there is no news on the DNA, at least another feature story on the murders would put it back in the public eye for a while.

I live in the area and read the paper every day. I'll be sure to post anything if they do any other stories about this.

grace60
01-08-2011, 10:09 PM
That's okay, I had to re-look it up and I'd just read it yesterday, lol. Also, I assumed Arcadia and Sarasota were quite close together, but Map Quest shows they're nearly fifty miles apart.

Yes and it's a long lonely ride if your alone. I drive to Arcadia and Wauchula every few months for business. There is nothing once you get through the Myakka State Park area and cell phones still won't work in certain areas. There are houses and farms along the way today but I imagine back in 1959 there were not many.

MaryLiz
01-08-2011, 10:44 PM
Has it been established she was dragged from the bedroom to the living room? I can't remember reading that.
If that is the case then maybe to put her in the room with the rest of her family. Why? Perhaps the perp wanted to cover up the fact that she was sole target or that it was sexually motivated. If the killer did know her personally and had feelings for her it seems logical after she was dead he wanted to put her in the living room with her children - out of respect, as morbid and twisted as that sounds.

BBM...yes, it said in the article from the Herald-Tribune in December 2005 that the killer started to drag her into the living room.

"The killer pulled a quilt over the pillow on Jimmie's bed, covering up blood. With another quilt, he wiped blood from Christine's legs, then dragged her toward the living room."

Don't forget, Cliff and the children weren't home yet, so maybe he was going to put Christine's body in the living room for them to see as soon as they got home. But they drove up just as he was dragging her body out, I think.

IMO, this crime was a very personal one against Christine Walker, and I believe if Cliff and the children hadn't come home when they did, they may not have been murdered. I think the perp went there strictly for sex with Christine, and when she rebuffed his advances, he raped her, then killed her. I just don't think he intended to kill the whole family, but they showed up almost right after he shot Christine. JMO.

Here's the link below again to the entire article from 2005.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20051218/NEWS/512180667?p=1&tc=pg

MaryLiz
01-08-2011, 10:53 PM
I live in the area and read the paper every day. I'll be sure to post anything if they do any other stories about this.

Thanks, grace60. I e-mailed the reporter who wrote the lengthy article in 2005, Matthew Doig. There was a follow-up article in April 2006, I think, that cleared one or two of the suspects. I e-mailed him to ask if there had been any more news about the DNA and he answered me, stating there was nothing new. I then wrote to him about four months before the 50th anniversary in December 2009 to ask if there would be an article marking the 50 years. He never answered back and I have seen nothing in the Herald-Tribune since then. I was going to post the link below to the April 2006 article in the Herald-Tribune, but I can't find it now. I could only find the article from December 2005.

grace60
01-08-2011, 11:13 PM
Thanks, grace60. I e-mailed the reporter who wrote the lengthy article in 2005, Matthew Doig. There was a follow-up article in April 2006, I think, that cleared one or two of the suspects. I e-mailed him to ask if there had been any more news about the DNA and he answered me, stating there was nothing new. I then wrote to him about four months before the 50th anniversary in December 2009 to ask if there would be an article marking the 50 years. He never answered back and I have seen nothing in the Herald-Tribune since then. I was going to post the link below to the April 2006 article in the Herald-Tribune, but I can't find it now. I could only find the article from December 2005.

Is this it? http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20060409/NEWS/604090916

MaryLiz
01-08-2011, 11:38 PM
Is this it? http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20060409/NEWS/604090916

yes, that's it. I guess I didn't look hard enough! Thanks for posting it. :)

grace60
01-08-2011, 11:41 PM
yes, that's it. I guess I didn't look hard enough! Thanks for posting it. :)

The tribune has a archives section I looked up the stories for 4/06

kline
01-09-2011, 05:55 AM
BBM...yes, it said in the article from the Herald-Tribune in December 2005 that the killer started to drag her into the living room.

"The killer pulled a quilt over the pillow on Jimmie's bed, covering up blood. With another quilt, he wiped blood from Christine's legs, then dragged her toward the living room."

Don't forget, Cliff and the children weren't home yet, so maybe he was going to put Christine's body in the living room for them to see as soon as they got home. But they drove up just as he was dragging her body out, I think.

IMO, this crime was a very personal one against Christine Walker, and I believe if Cliff and the children hadn't come home when they did, they may not have been murdered. I think the perp went there strictly for sex with Christine, and when she rebuffed his advances, he raped her, then killed her. I just don't think he intended to kill the whole family, but they showed up almost right after he shot Christine. JMO.

Here's the link below again to the entire article from 2005.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20051218/NEWS/512180667?p=1&tc=pgI agree completely.
I think the sexual assault and murder of Christine was the primary motive and yes I think the rest of the family came home at the wrong time.
And I would still being willing to bet the killer was in attendance at her HighSchool while she was there.How big of a school could it be?

MaryLiz
01-09-2011, 01:47 PM
I agree completely.
I think the sexual assault and murder of Christine was the primary motive and yes I think the rest of the family came home at the wrong time.
And I would still being willing to bet the killer was in attendance at her HighSchool while she was there.How big of a school could it be?


BBM...I agree. I think the perp was someone who lusted after Christine since high school and thought he saw his golden opportunity when she was there alone. It makes no other sense that he would take the majorette uniform. That uniform almost certainly connected his feelings for Christine back to their high school days.

JMO.

justthinkin
01-09-2011, 03:14 PM
BBM...yes, it said in the article from the Herald-Tribune in December 2005 that the killer started to drag her into the living room.

"The killer pulled a quilt over the pillow on Jimmie's bed, covering up blood. With another quilt, he wiped blood from Christine's legs, then dragged her toward the living room."

Don't forget, Cliff and the children weren't home yet, so maybe he was going to put Christine's body in the living room for them to see as soon as they got home. But they drove up just as he was dragging her body out, I think.

IMO, this crime was a very personal one against Christine Walker, and I believe if Cliff and the children hadn't come home when they did, they may not have been murdered. I think the perp went there strictly for sex with Christine, and when she rebuffed his advances, he raped her, then killed her. I just don't think he intended to kill the whole family, but they showed up almost right after he shot Christine. JMO.

Here's the link below again to the entire article from 2005.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20051218/NEWS/512180667?p=1&tc=pg


ITA, MaryLiz. It seems to me, the killer was planning on waiting for Cliff to come home. Why else would he drag the body towards the living room?

While I also suspect the killer was someone Christine knew from her high school days, if as one of the articles mentioned, she would put on her majorette uniform at times for people visiting her house, then it could have been someone who'd only seen her wearing it there. Regardless, that majorette uniform with Christine in it, made an impact on the killer!

"The killer pulled a quilt over the pillow on Jimmie's bed, covering up blood." That bit of info is baffling. Here we have a killer who is planning on lying in wait to kill Cliff, in addition to Christine, but why cover up the blood on the bed? Is it a sign the killer at least felt a momentary sense of guilt or remorse? Offhand, I can't think of any other reason he would do that. The sight of her blood must have disturbed him somewhat, ridiculous as it seems.

justthinkin
01-09-2011, 08:43 PM
Maybe I was far too quick to dismiss Wilbur Tooker, Tucker or Tocker. He appears in a photo taken at the crime scene with the LEOs investigating the case. The news page is a little blurry, but it looks to me like they have his name as Wilbur H. Tucker. He was described in another article as a 65 yr. old, retired railroad worker. I can't see his whole face, but from what I cansee he really doesn't look that old. JMO
Oddly, I can't find him listed in SSDI under any of the the above spellings of his last name.

MaryLiz
01-10-2011, 06:54 PM
ITA, MaryLiz. It seems to me, the killer was planning on waiting for Cliff to come home. Why else would he drag the body towards the living room?

While I also suspect the killer was someone Christine knew from her high school days, if as one of the articles mentioned, she would put on her majorette uniform at times for people visiting her house, then it could have been someone who'd only seen her wearing it there. Regardless, that majorette uniform with Christine in it, made an impact on the killer!

"The killer pulled a quilt over the pillow on Jimmie's bed, covering up blood." That bit of info is baffling. Here we have a killer who is planning on lying in wait to kill Cliff, in addition to Christine, but why cover up the blood on the bed? Is it a sign the killer at least felt a momentary sense of guilt or remorse? Offhand, I can't think of any other reason he would do that. The sight of her blood must have disturbed him somewhat, ridiculous as it seems.

I just thought maybe he was pulling Christine's body out toward the living room to sort of put her on display, so to speak. Then when the family came home, they would immediately see her. I guess I'd like to believe that the murderer didn't really intend to kill those two poor innocent children from the get-go. I just thought that it was a possibility he killed the whole family because they came home before he had a chance to get out of there.

But anything is possible in this horrible crime. The perp was obviously pretty sick, so he could have known Cliff and the kids would be there shortly and planned to kill them as well.

I just wonder why NOTHING has been publicized about the DNA results for nearly 5 years. I know the results take a long time, but surely by now they would have run the tests through on everyone and would know if they had a match. It seems like everything just suddenly stopped in this case as far as publicity.

justthinkin
01-10-2011, 10:12 PM
MaryLiz,

I think the killer was doing a little staging. Despite the fact he was able to shoot Cliff as soon as he stepped in the door, I think the killer's original intent was to drag Christine into the living room, and to hopefully, momentarily distract Cliff so he, could easily shoot Cliff when Cliff bent down to possibly check for a pulse on Christine or to shoot Cliff when he collapsed in grief on seeing Christine lying there dead.

I'm guessing that was plan A, but Cliff arrived, and plan B went into action.

To me it seems the killer had to be an unsavory character to begin with. It's hard for me to imagine someone who had never killed anyone before being able to kill two babies as he did.

There had been 3 other murders that year in that area, and I wonder if all three of those murders were solved. I know one wasn't, the college boy who was hog-tied, and tortured.

You would think that Mauck, the meter reader, would've been high on their list for DNA testing. If deceased, they could've tested any male relatives he had. Why not?

To answer one of your questions, perhaps the police department was only interested in testing the two they thought were the most likely perps. Perhaps all the others are either dead or would have to be chased down, and the expense of trying to get someone from out of state to give a DNA sample cost prohibitive for such an old case. Sadly, I guess it comes down to how much money the county or town can spare. : (

One more thing, perhaps they destroyed the remaining evidence in the process of doing the DNA testing. Yet another truth may be that the DNA was unreliable due to the age of the evidence? Just guessing. I'm certainly no expert on how long evidence can be maintained and still get solid results.

MaryLiz
03-20-2011, 08:27 PM
A tip from the 1990s being investigated in the Walker case.

Florida sheriff's office seeks Poconos' help in old murder case


The Sarasota County Sheriff's Office in Florida is reaching out to the Monroe County community to help solve the 51-year-old horrific murders of a Florida couple and their two young children.
Someone who contacted the Sheriff's Office in 1994, claiming to be a Stroudsburg bartender possibly with information about the murders, may hold the key.

More at link.

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110319/NEWS/103190319/-1/NEWS01

MaryLiz
03-20-2011, 08:33 PM
Here's another similar article from The Morning Call of Allentown, PA. In this article though, it says that the DNA testing done in 2005 that we have been wondering about, has not yielded any matches yet.


http://articles.mcall.com/2011-03-18/news/mc-stroudsburg-unsolved-quadruple-mur20110318_1_stroudsburg-area-bartender-cold-case

KariKae
03-22-2011, 01:51 PM
The Walker Murders - Suspects

Curtis McCall
Reason Suspected: Curtis, who was 21 at the time of the murders, had been one of Christine's high school boyfriends. Alleged to have carried on a relationship with her up to the time of murders. Curtis, described by investigators as a "no-good trouble-making sort of person," owned a .22-caliber pistol. Reportedly became a man on the edge after the murders, often nervous and growing thinner, apparently unable to eat. Curtis had a history of violence. Before he was fired from his job as a Florida Highway Patrol dispatcher for neglect of duty, Curtis attacked a man who had been pulled over by an FHP trooper and attacked the arrested subject with his fists and became so violent that the trooper had to slap McCall to bring him to his senses. McCall said that he didn't even remember hitting the arrested subject.

Result: Sheriff Boyer and Deputy Wade Coker interviewed McCall at the Sumter County courthouse in Americus, Ga., where he was working as a construction foreman in the early 1960s. McCall told Boyer he never dated Christine. He said he did see her a few weeks before the murder, but she was with Cliff and they had come to ask him about a horse. He said he owned a nine-shot .22-caliber gun at one time, but sold it to someone he couldn't remember. Coker hooked McCall to a polygraph machine. The results showed McCall was nervous. But after two more tests, the only response that gave Coker pause came when he asked: "Have you withheld any information from the law enforcement officers about the Walker murder?" The machine indicated that he had.
Today, McCall's whereabouts are unknown.
.

This guy seems to fit what we are talking about. He distanced himself by saying he never dated Christine. He would have a motive to take the uniform. He one part of the LDT showed him to be evasive. I would LOVE to know if he had been cleared through DNA.

belimom
03-24-2011, 08:12 PM
This guy seems to fit what we are talking about. He distanced himself by saying he never dated Christine. He would have a motive to take the uniform. He one part of the LDT showed him to be evasive. I would LOVE to know if he had been cleared through DNA.

I'm with you. I think this is the guy... I'm puzzled by the cousin and his behavior, but the marriage certificate and uniform really say alot, I think.

Reality Orlando
03-24-2011, 09:32 PM
Were these guys ever ruled out?

Butch Dennison

Reason Suspected: A woman told a sheriff's deputy that Dennison, who lived near where someone hid bloody clothes that belonged to the murdered family, talked about killing the Walkers. Butch's father covered for him by burying his son's cowboy boots, which had the Walkers' blood on them, she claimed.

Result: The elder Dennison passed a polygraph exam, but there is no indication that Butch was ever questioned.

Mosby Henry Fulton

Reason Suspected: Arrested several times for rape and fondling young girls, sheriff's files state. A friend said Fulton "has no principle at all when it comes to women or girls" and that he raped a woman while her wheelchair-bound husband watched.

Result: Boyer reviewed Fulton's arrest record.

I wonder what bloodied clothes they found?

belimom
03-24-2011, 09:58 PM
...snipped...

I wonder what bloodied clothes they found?

I believe one of the earlier links said that it was bloody clothes that belonged to the family and that the killer probably used to mop himself off and clean up a little.

ETA: It was in a link in the first post...


A few months after the murder, three women found bloody clothes in a shed a mile or two from the Walker home. The clothes -- two shirts, a skirt, a blouse, pants and a handkerchief -- belonged to Cliff and Christine Walker and the killer may have used them to mop himself up.

The placement of the clothes deepened suspicions that someone familiar with the area surrounding the Walkers' home had killed them, then snuck away to hide the evidence.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?p=4&tc=pg&AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5

kline
04-03-2011, 04:47 AM
I'm with you. I think this is the guy... I'm puzzled by the cousin and his behavior, but the marriage certificate and uniform really say alot, I think.Absolutely,I think the theft of the certificate and the majorette outfit speak VOLUMES about the killer and his motivation and should have narrowed the field of suspects considerably to my way of thinking.
I must have missed the story about the College Student who was bound and tortured...could someone point me to a link?

Kimster
04-03-2011, 11:22 AM
:rose: The Walker family is our featured cold case from April 3-April 10, 2011. :rose:

May they finally have justice!

Lera213
04-03-2011, 12:03 PM
It is obvious to me that the killer did know this family and I think like LE does that had a fixation on Christine, he went in to do his deed but the husband and kids came home and he knew that he was caught. He in his mind had to kill them all.

My first gut feeling is that young 23 year old that owned a 22 caliber gun but sold it and doesn't remember to whom. He after reading all the suspects is the one I would focus on.

Richard
04-05-2011, 01:39 PM
The bloody cowboy boot:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?p=6&tc=pg&AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5

I have always thought that the murderers of the Clutter family, Perry Smith and Dick Hickock, being in the vicinity of the Walker Murder would have to rank as being one of the BIGGEST coincidences in the history of crime.

While there are a lot of good theories and scenarios on who could have murdered the Walkers and why they were murdered, I have always wondered why Perry and Dick were dismissed so quickly as potential suspects.

These two characters murdered the Clutter family in Nebraska only a short time before, and then they show up in this other area so far from Nebraska where the Walker family is brutally and ruthlessly murdered. Of course they say they didn't do it. But couldn't they be lying - just a little bit?

Others with personal or family connections to the Walkers might have had a more reasonable "motive" for killing them, if you look at crime statistics, or usual murder motives. But Perry and Dick did not really need any motive. They killed the Clutters for essentially no reasons whatever. They state that robbery was their reason for being at the Clutter farm, but that does not rationally lead to the brutal killings which they committed.

In 1967, I saw the movie "In Cold Blood" based on Truman Capote's book by the same very appropriate title. (This was back in the day of movie theater showings, not VHS, DVD, or movie channels on TV.)

Something I remember to this day is that as the movie started, you see Perry Smith (played by actor and later real life murderer Robert Blake) sitting in the back of a bus with his feet propped up on the seat in front of him. At this point some jackass behind me says to his girlfriend, "That's the shoe they trace him with."

It sort of spoiled the plot at the outset. But I wonder if the bloody foot print found at the site of the Walker murder might prove to be the clue which eventually solves this case?

Kat
04-05-2011, 03:21 PM
Does anyone know of any well researched books about this case? I'd like to read up on it TIA for suggestions!

To Richard:

As an aside and not directly commenting on your thoughts above, In Cold Blood is one of my fav books but because it was written by Capote not because of the story. Early and mid career Capote is my fav--I didn't care for his later work when he had became bitter and lashed out at others through his writings. Just me and my quirky reading habits :)

I view it as a novel inspired by a true crime.


Back on topic:
I'd really like to be able to read something on family or more than one book so that I could ponder and think about what really happened.

Robin Hood
04-05-2011, 06:31 PM
I think it's Curtis McCall who confessed to the bar person in 1994. He just has to be found for the DNA test, either that or test any relatives.
I know nothing about guns so I shall ask, the gun they think was involved a .22, how many shots would it hold ? I wonder if the girl Debbie was drowned because it was the last bullet and she was still alive.
I also wonder if Christine was alive when Cliff came home and she was dragged towards the front door as a shield. It seems locals knew Cliff had always got a loaded gun in his car and if he were to open the front door with it in his hand the attacker could well have been caught and maybe shot.
Scenario..Christine attacked,Cliffs truck pulls up, Christine dragged to hall, Cliff enters without gun, attacker is reconised and therefore all are shot.
I remember lots of stuff from when I was a baby and surprised family members when I shouted my father by his first name when I was 9 months old. IMO that's why the children were killed.

Adrian Harbinger
04-05-2011, 07:45 PM
I think it's Curtis McCall who confessed to the bar person in 1994. He just has to be found for the DNA test, either that or test any relatives.
I know nothing about guns so I shall ask, the gun they think was involved a .22, how many shots would it hold ? I wonder if the girl Debbie was drowned because it was the last bullet and she was still alive.
I also wonder if Christine was alive when Cliff came home and she was dragged towards the front door as a shield. It seems locals knew Cliff had always got a loaded gun in his car and if he were to open the front door with it in his hand the attacker could well have been caught and maybe shot.
Scenario..Christine attacked,Cliffs truck pulls up, Christine dragged to hall, Cliff enters without gun, attacker is reconised and therefore all are shot.
I remember lots of stuff from when I was a baby and surprised family members when I shouted my father by his first name when I was 9 months old. IMO that's why the children were killed.

I agree. Assuming they still have the bloody clothes that were found in that shed or other fluids from the scene, DNA could clear this up unless the killer is already six feet under.

kline
04-06-2011, 04:36 AM
I have always thought that the murderers of the Clutter family, Perry Smith and Dick Hickock, being in the vicinity of the Walker Murder would have to rank as being one of the BIGGEST coincidences in the history of crime.

While there are a lot of good theories and scenarios on who could have murdered the Walkers and why they were murdered, I have always wondered why Perry and Dick were dismissed so quickly as potential suspects.

These two characters murdered the Clutter family in Nebraska only a short time before, and then they show up in this other area so far from Nebraska where the Walker family is brutally and ruthlessly murdered. Of course they say they didn't do it. But couldn't they be lying - just a little bit?

Others with personal or family connections to the Walkers might have had a more reasonable "motive" for killing them, if you look at crime statistics, or usual murder motives. But Perry and Dick did not really need any motive. They killed the Clutters for essentially no reasons whatever. They state that robbery was their reason for being at the Clutter farm, but that does not rationally lead to the brutal killings which they committed.

In 1967, I saw the movie "In Cold Blood" based on Truman Capote's book by the same very appropriate title. (This was back in the day of movie theater showings, not VHS, DVD, or movie channels on TV.)

Something I remember to this day is that as the movie started, you see Perry Smith (played by actor and later real life murderer Robert Blake) sitting in the back of a bus with his feet propped up on the seat in front of him. At this point some jackass behind me says to his girlfriend, "That's the shoe they trace him with."

It sort of spoiled the plot at the outset. But I wonder if the bloody foot print found at the site of the Walker murder might prove to be the clue which eventually solves this case?
It was kind of a unique set of circumstances that precipitated the Clutter murders sort of a 'perfect storm.
Robbery was obstensibly the motive though Hickock later confessed that his desire to rape Nancy Clutter was a big motivation (Perry Smith who had a real problem with rapists and child molestors stopped him from consumating that attack.)
Smith and Hickock werent actually on a thrill killing rampage like say Charlie Starkweather though after the Clutter murders.
They did almost kill a travelling saleman in order to rob him and steal his car but that was more of a means to an end as they were flat broke and on foot.
I still think the theft of Mr.s Walkers majorette costume and marrige certificate speaks to a very personal focus and obsession with her .
Judging by the few photos ive seen of her she was uncommonly attractive especially for rural florida back in the 1950's she probably was the focus of a lot of unhealthy attention from men.But I would be willing to bet her killer was in high school with her either in the same class or a grade or two below.
I do agree Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, even though they covered practiclly the whole country in there travels during their month and a half of wandering being in the immediate vicinity on that day is one of the most bizzare coincidences of all time.

MaryLiz
04-06-2011, 03:08 PM
I have to agree that Curtis McCall is the most likely suspect in this case. It was, as Richard said, the biggest coincidence in the history of crime that Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were in that area at the time of the murders. I also think the motive in the Clutter case was strictly robbery, and that the Walker crime just doesn't fit Smith and Hickock's MO.

I really wish they could track McCall down so they could get his DNA. Everything just points to a "personal" crime in this case and IMO, McCall is most likely guilty.

Nikki_2
04-13-2011, 01:54 AM
Interesting case, I would have thought that it would have been solved by now with DNA. Just a few of my own thoughts in no particular order

I don't believe it was Curtis, even though he seems obvious, because he was wild and had a temper does not mean he was a killer, he dated Christine in High school, still does not make him a murderer. In those days, I believe that people gave alot of information which was based purely on venting their own dislike of a person, in turn this would have only mislead, and wasted valuable time in finding the possible killer/s.

Police suspected Hancock & Smith at one stage, this would mean that they were never certain themselves how many people might have been involved in the murders ? I too, do not believe that these 2 killed the Walker family as they were focused on robbing a family whom they thought were wealthy, unlike the Walker family.

In re to Christine's uniform, could she have not for some reason moved it or given it somewhere, afterall who of us announce to our family or friends anytime that we move certain items in our home.

Nikki_2
04-13-2011, 02:20 AM
( 1/2 of my post in previous was lost )

Marriage certificate, could it have been possible for someone to have taken it to use as their own in another state ? eg: someone who wished to start a new life with a new identity, could this have been possible then anywhere ? very curious with this if someone could perhaps elaborate on this

Could there have been 2 killers, one a woman ? In a state where guns/rifles are almost in every household, and I guess people would have used them with ease, the killer in this case did not come across as a person who had experience with guns ( I am not familiar with them either ) I write this as too many shots seemed to be fired and that at fairly close range, maybe little experience with weapons and panic combined..

I don't believe that the killer/s was trying to position Christine's body so that the husband could find it ( as mentioned here ) I think that they were trying to move the body outside, to remove it perhaps from the home and that is when her husband and son arrived.

The clothing used to wipe the blood was an odd choice, shirts, blouse, pants, handkerchief, this for the oddest reason is the first thing I think of when thinking of this case. Why were these taken to be hidden when they must have been aware there were prints,etc left in places. Why would they risk getting caught carrying bloodied clothes, this makes sense in my mind what I am thinking, expressing it is another matter.

In regards to the rape, was it proven that she was raped, was it ruled out for certain that she had not had consensual sex before being murdered ?

Finally, the letter that was mentioned that Christine wrote to someone, this was not mentioned to whom or why, what relevance did this letter have ?

Could be wrong but I don't believe it was one killer, it seems strange that a man would fill the tub with a small amount of water to drown a child when he had a weapon and shot her anyway. Sorry for the post being all over the place, writing as I am thinking about the possible motives

scriptgirl
11-19-2011, 06:21 PM
Someone has to know something, someone had to have seen something. This was a small town. people talk. What happened to the house they lived in?

kline
11-23-2011, 05:14 AM
Someone has to know something, someone had to have seen something. This was a small town. people talk. What happened to the house they lived in?I could be wrong but I think the house is gone now.
And yes someone does know.This case screams of the involvment of a local who had a thing for Mrs Walker.I still would be very surprised to learn it wasnt someone she was in School with.

scriptgirl
11-23-2011, 02:23 PM
It was not a random killer. Who the hell steals a marriage license and a cheerleading uniform-not someone who did not personally know the person, that's for sure. I wonder if anyone strange was ever seen visiting Christine's grave.

MaryLiz
12-02-2012, 08:21 AM
This case is nearing the 53rd anniversary. Here's a new article published today in the Herald-Tribune. I still think it was a wild coicidence that Perry Smith and Dick Hickock were in the area at the time of the Walker murders, but it's an interesting article. Sounds like the new investigator on the case is really zeroing in on Smith and Hickock as the killers. They plan to do more DNA testing. I really wish they could solve this one.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121202/ARTICLE/121139977

scriptgirl
12-02-2012, 01:46 PM
I don't think it was Hickock and Perry. I think it was that neighbor or someone that knew Christine. Why was her majorette uniform missing-that seems VERY personal to me.

MaryLiz
12-02-2012, 01:58 PM
I don't think it was Hickock and Perry. I think it was that neighbor or someone that knew Christine. Why was her majorette uniform missing-that seems VERY personal to me.

I totally agree. Like I said above, I just think it was an unbelievable coincidence that they were in the area at the time. I haven't read any articles in a long time about this case, but IIRC, there was no shortage of men who wanted to have their way with Christine. The missing marriage certificate and majorette uniform speaks to me as very personal as well. Why on earth would anyone take those two items, except as "trophies"? I know they are totally frustrated with this case and want to solve it, but I really can't believe Smith and Hickock did this. Not that they weren't capable of it, but I just believe it was a much more personal crime, and that it all centered around Christine.

scriptgirl
12-03-2012, 02:58 PM
I agree. I wonder how long all this mess with men being after Christine started and why the family just didn't move away when it became apparent the harassment wouldn't cease.

Kat
12-04-2012, 08:08 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/04/florida-investigators-eye-notorious-in-cold-blood-murderers-in-15-family/?intcmp=trending

Published December 04, 2012

FoxNews.com



The men were given a lie-detector tests in the case, but passed. Their fingerprints also did not match the evidence in the case. However, the type of lie detector tests used were later deemed unreliable.

McGath says she and her team want to compare DNA samples from Hickock and Smith to the evidence collected in the Walker case, and hope to file their petition in Kansas as early as next week.


The men in the above quote refer to Hickock and Smith. The County Sheriff's Office is working on a legal brief right now to try to get the bodies of this family exhumed to do testing for DNA evidence from the crimes.

Anadarko
12-04-2012, 08:12 AM
This case coming up on Fox and Friends this hour.

ETA:

I didn't get to see the segment on F&F, as I was driving to work, but I almost fell over when I heard them say they were going to talk about this. I was here at work yesterday, looking very busy, and REALLY looking at WS. Came across this case, which I had never seen before. Read awhile, and then made a point to read the rest over coffee around 6 a.m. this morning. (also used to live between Sarasota and Arcadia back in the 80's. Charlotte county. Most people have never even heard of Arcadia unless they live down there) Finish the whole thread, and then later I'm listening to news while putting on makeup, and they say something about Walker, Clutter, Hickock, etc... So I ran down the hall to my office to post that it was coming up. Sorry to ramble. Just one of those OMG, how weird moments!!!

scriptgirl
12-04-2012, 05:12 PM
Question-are there any living relatives of the Walkers that would have to give permission for the exhumation?

TallCoolOne
12-04-2012, 07:18 PM
I might have misunderstood but I took it they are exhuming Hickock and Smith for DNA, not the Walkers. It was mentioned they wanted to compare DNA left on Christines underwear so perhaps they already have what they need in that regard?

Kat
12-04-2012, 09:49 PM
You are correct Tallcoolone. I misread that article last night.

They want to exhume hickock and smith to compare their DNA to evidence left at the crime scene.

My apologies!

MaryLiz
12-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Question-are there any living relatives of the Walkers that would have to give permission for the exhumation?

The sheriff's deputy who worked the case for 25+ years, Ron Albritton, is their cousin. There probably are other relatives, but as TallCoolOne said, I think it's Smith and Hickock who they want to exhume. I can't believe how this is ALL over the news now because of the possible connection to Smith and Hickock. It's great that the case is getting all this exposure! Like I said, I don't agree that they are responsible, but I'm glad they're working so hard on it now and checking out every possible angle.

MaryLiz
12-04-2012, 10:52 PM
The link below was posted way back somewhere on this thread, but I'm re-posting it in case anyone wants to read it again. It's a wonderful article published by the Herald-Tribune in 2005.


http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20051220/NEWS/512200330/-1/SPECIAL12 (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20051220/NEWS/512200330/-1/SPECIAL12)

Reader
12-05-2012, 03:59 PM
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/article/In-Cold-Blood-murderers-investigated-in-Florida-4090270.php

OSPREY, Fla. (AP) — At the end of 1959, two families of four — one in Kansas, the other in Florida — were brutally murdered.

Two men were arrested, charged and executed in the Kansas case, and writer Truman Capote captured the horrific tale in his iconic true crime book, "In Cold Blood."

The Florida murder of two parents and two children was investigated by dozens of detectives over the years, but it remained unsolved. Now, a detective is trying to prove that the men who were executed in Kansas were also responsible for the Florida slayings.

"It's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle," said Sarasota County Sheriff's detective Kimberly McGath, who began re-investigating the murders of Cliff and Christine Walker and their two young children in 2007.

More at link.......

Sarasota
12-05-2012, 10:17 PM
:newhere:
new member and first post --- main residence is Sarasota since 2001..... I have been following the story here on the Walker family for a few years. An ironic twist that I just discovered that their is a new detective on the case.

Last week at a Christmas party, met a new friend who is a playwright, the wife and I were chatting with this guy and his wife and we were discussing this cold case, he never knew of it, we were just a few miles from the location in Osprey --- I mentioned it and told him how back a few years ago the local paper had an interactive site and that was the last I heard about the case. At one point early in the evening I had seen Tom Knight the sheriff (not a name dropper - nor do I know him).... after this discussion with our new friends I tried to find him.... was gonna inquire what he knew of the case and if they had anyone look into it recently etc. I could not locate him, luckily lol as I was quite shocked 2 days later when the story broke about the new detective right there in the paper.

Now myself, prior to this, I thought no way could Hickock and Smith have done this.... they were just too cowardly --- sick yes, Hickock a female abuser etc. Big fan of ICB and I read it at least once a year, and have always been fascinated by the story. I grew up in KC and had a close friend for a number of years that moved out near Holcomb in a town called Hays, KS.

so today I am open minded and you never know...... I have no dog in this hunt, however, I have become really fascinated by the information that is available from the links online, I have poured over almost 2,000 pages of original information.... I have 3 PDF's that I will try to upload. (cancel that! -- :cop: they are close to 70Mb total )

Here is the link, I found it easier to download the PDF's directly to my PC for a much clearer viewing experience https://www.documentcloud.org/public/search/projectid:7179-walker-murders

I look forward to joining the discussion and remain hopeful that the new detective will be able to exhume H & S and either implicate or exonerate them.

Sean

Filly
12-06-2012, 09:08 AM
Wow!

Special thanks, Reader. The timeline sure fits.

How morbid that people actually show up at the graves of those two.

Hoping things can work out for this Detective and finding the truth. Such a horrible crime. Little babies.

STANDREID
12-06-2012, 10:57 AM
I guess they should check it out but I'd be surprised if the two cases were related. Clutter was a robbery gone wrong but I don't really see that in the Walker case which seems more sexually motivated. Of course, no one says that killers have to follow a punch card.

MaryLiz
12-06-2012, 09:10 PM
:newhere:
new member and first post --- main residence is Sarasota since 2001..... I have been following the story here on the Walker family for a few years. An ironic twist that I just discovered that their is a new detective on the case.

Last week at a Christmas party, met a new friend who is a playwright, the wife and I were chatting with this guy and his wife and we were discussing this cold case, he never knew of it, we were just a few miles from the location in Osprey --- I mentioned it and told him how back a few years ago the local paper had an interactive site and that was the last I heard about the case. At one point early in the evening I had seen Tom Knight the sheriff (not a name dropper - nor do I know him).... after this discussion with our new friends I tried to find him.... was gonna inquire what he knew of the case and if they had anyone look into it recently etc. I could not locate him, luckily lol as I was quite shocked 2 days later when the story broke about the new detective right there in the paper.

Now myself, prior to this, I thought no way could Hickock and Smith have done this.... they were just too cowardly --- sick yes, Hickock a female abuser etc. Big fan of ICB and I read it at least once a year, and have always been fascinated by the story. I grew up in KC and had a close friend for a number of years that moved out near Holcomb in a town called Hays, KS.

so today I am open minded and you never know...... I have no dog in this hunt, however, I have become really fascinated by the information that is available from the links online, I have poured over almost 2,000 pages of original information.... I have 3 PDF's that I will try to upload. (cancel that! -- :cop: they are close to 70Mb total )

Here is the link, I found it easier to download the PDF's directly to my PC for a much clearer viewing experience https://www.documentcloud.org/public/search/projectid:7179-walker-murders

I look forward to joining the discussion and remain hopeful that the new detective will be able to exhume H & S and either implicate or exonerate them.

Sean

Welcome to WS, Sean. I clicked on the PDF file and it looks like there is a treasure trove of info on there. Don't have time to go through it now, but I have some time off work coming up and I would love to read through some of the info.

Thanks again for the post!

Onaliv
12-07-2012, 11:36 PM
Have tried to find more info about this, without success-can anybody comment? The DNA evidence has evidently exonerated Cliff's cousin Elbert Walker. But, what about his reportedly odd behavior on the day of the murder...asking directions to the house he had recently stayed at, showing up purportedly to talk about an upcoming Christmas party, etc. - I have not found any explanations for this, or stories where he denied these events. I appreciate the reliability of DNA, but also wonder how reliable the sample is AND the possibility that it could have been from contact with someone on a different date. Was there an autopsy on Christine Walker, and is it published anywhere? Appreciate any input.

grace60
12-08-2012, 01:17 AM
Chat about Walker family murders Sunday on Twitter

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121207/ARTICLE/121209692/2416/NEWS?Title=Chat-about-Walker-family-murders-Sunday-on-Twitter&tc=ar

grace60
12-08-2012, 01:20 AM
Chat about Walker family murders Sunday on Twitter

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121207/ARTICLE/121209692/2416/NEWS?Title=Chat-about-Walker-family-murders-Sunday-on-Twitter&tc=ar

cluciano63
12-08-2012, 01:21 AM
I guess they should check it out but I'd be surprised if the two cases were related. Clutter was a robbery gone wrong but I don't really see that in the Walker case which seems more sexually motivated. Of course, no one says that killers have to follow a punch card.

Also one of the Clutter killers had a link to Mr. Clutter in some way, or an associate of his did. They were not a random selection.

grace60
12-08-2012, 12:25 PM
Also one of the Clutter killers had a link to Mr. Clutter in some way, or an associate of his did. They were not a random selection.

"Wells had boasted about a planned robbery of his former employer Herbert Clutter, who, according to Wells, had 10,000 dollars stored in a safe in the house."
http://toddreadsincoldblood.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-motive.html

Reader
12-08-2012, 03:30 PM
Chat about Walker family murders Sunday on Twitter

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121207/ARTICLE/121209692/2416/NEWS?Title=Chat-about-Walker-family-murders-Sunday-on-Twitter&tc=ar

Thanks for the link...will try to follow that Sun. Also, at the bottom of the page was another link on case:

A look at the suspects in the Walker family murders

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121202/ARTICLE/121209966?tc=obinsite

Interesting that both men had disfigurements and were envious of what others had.

Perry said this to Capote about the Walker killings: “Know what I wouldn't be surprised?” Smith asked. “If this wasn't done by a lunatic. Some nut that read about what happened out in Kansas.”................more at link.....

justthinkin
12-08-2012, 06:18 PM
It seems to me exhuming the bodies of Perry and Hickock is a waste. According to the documents that Sean provided on page 12 of the 450 pg. group, Perry and Hickock's fingerprints were compared with those at the Walker crime scene, and didn't match any of them.

The original investigation ran amoke. They let people go on the basis of giving them a lie detector test, but with no mention of also having compaired suspects or POIs fingerprints with fingerprints found at the scene. What gives with that?

One of the people I find very interesting is Cliff's sister's husband, Ozie Youmans.

"...he had made sexual advances on Christine. In 1931, he served two years in
prison for assault with attempt to rape, sheriff's reports say. "http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190338&Page=5

scriptgirl
12-08-2012, 07:34 PM
That man tried to sexually assault a woman and Cliff's sister still married him? Had Cliff ever had issues with him before, did he know about the advances?

Onaliv
12-08-2012, 08:16 PM
Thinking that the fight Cliff was in on Thursday holds a valuable key to the perpetrator in this case...I would have thought Cliff may have discussed this with his friend Don McLeod?

Onaliv
12-08-2012, 08:55 PM
Not exactly sure how the current investigator has placed the Walker's as possibly wanting to buy Smith/Hickock's car (other than they were at Altman Chevrolet on Saturday looking at the same model), does anyone know anything about the car salesman being checked out as a suspect back in the day? It may be a stretch too, but read where he was spotted attending the funerals, but was not known to the family prior to the Saturday trip to the dealership, which is strange. If that person left town shortly after the crime, I'd be very suspicious. Anybody know?

MaryLiz
12-09-2012, 09:41 AM
New article today.

What if 'In Cold Blood' got it wrong about Walker murders?

The taut prose of the book “In Cold Blood” propelled Truman Capote into the literary stratosphere in 1965.

Trumpeted by the author as a “nonfiction novel,” anticipated in 1962 by Newsweek as “the overwhelmingly factual book (Capote) has been working on for more than two years,” this intimate account of a 1959 quadruple homicide in rural Kansas became an instant classic, the standard for true-crime writing, and the basis for a box-office hit.
But as the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office prepares a request from Kansas authorities for the exhumation of “In Cold Blood” villains Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, Capote's masterpiece will no doubt be revisited by admirers and critics alike.

More at link.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20121209/ARTICLE/121209625/2416/NEWS&tc=email_newsletter

Here's another small paragraph from the same article that kind of sums up the way I feel about Smith/Hickock being the perps in this case.

"Several academicians who have studied the “In Cold Blood” phenomenon express serious reservations over a Smith/Hickock connection to the Walker tragedy — not because they doubt the pair's capacity for violence, but because of how the Walker massacre was conducted."

Reader
12-09-2012, 07:12 PM
For those interested:

In the Sarasota HT today found a link to a lot of articles on the case, including old newspapers, graphics/interactives of the crime scene and investigation, about Capote, etc. The interactive on Smith's and Hickock's travels after the Clutter murders was very interesting...I had no idea they had traveled that much around Florida especially. They were definitely in the area when the Walkers were killed.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20051219/NEWS/512190421?p=1&tc=pg

Also checked out the twitter conversation with Shannon McFarland:

https://twitter.com/shanmcf

She provided most of the links shown above, and also one that has a lot of the LE documents:

https://www.documentcloud.org/public/#search/projectid:7179-walker-murders

Onaliv
12-09-2012, 07:28 PM
Anybody know if there is a list of who has already been DNA tested? Ozie Youmans died in 1983, curious if DNA was ever obtained?

MaryLiz
12-09-2012, 07:54 PM
Anybody know if there is a list of who has already been DNA tested? Ozie Youmans died in 1983, curious if DNA was ever obtained?

I think there was a list printed in the Herald-Tribune article from December 2005, which I re-posted the link to above in post #134, of whom they were going to get DNA from. IIRC, they did a follow-up article in April 2006 that said who was cleared. The article that I posted the link to below is from April 2006, but mentions that they cleared only Elbert Walker and Don McLeod.

I think most all of the DNA samples were taken around that time in 2006. So Ozie Youmans wasn't alive then to give DNA. I agree he is a very strong suspect. They should exhume him and get his DNA now.

http://www.dnalabsinternational.com/...l16_ref16.html (http://www.dnalabsinternational.com/email_newsletter/vol_16_apr_06/vol16_ref16.html)

kline
12-11-2012, 09:29 AM
I guess they should check it out but I'd be surprised if the two cases were related. Clutter was a robbery gone wrong but I don't really see that in the Walker case which seems more sexually motivated. Of course, no one says that killers have to follow a punch card.
Im with Standreid on this,I seriously doubt the Clutter killers were the perps involved in the Walker case.
While it is a truly Weird coincidence they were in the area,Smith and Hickock traveled ALOT and covered quite bit of ground in between the Nov 14 Murder of The Clutters and their Jan arrest in Vegas.
Basicly they were all over the place.
Besides I agree the Walker attack,the Rape of Mr.s Walker and the theft of her personal items like her High School Majorette uniform indicate someone with a sick fixation on her.
Perry Smith nearly came to blows with Hickock to keep Nancy Clutter from being raped in Holcomb.
The Walker case has been being worked in the last couple of years and there were other DNA tests pending in connection with it...it sounds like theyve just about ran out of steam and leads to be dogging this red herring again

Onaliv
12-11-2012, 09:50 PM
Reviewing all of the documentation available online makes me seriously question if one person acting alone could have killed the Walker's. What bothers me is that Cliff walked into the house, with his children, without any hesitation (of course I'm speculating based on the info I've read) and was evidently shot instantly (no sign of a fight between him and the killer(s) or that he was shielding the kids). I think if he had he any fear of "who" was inside (assuming there was a vehicle outside, which seems highly likely given the remote location of the house) he would have left the kids in the Jeep or at least outside. So my theory is that one of the killers greeted them outside...and because it was a known person there was no hesitation...the 3 Walker's went inside...and were shot by the other killer inside. My theory is subject to change...have been trying to run through all possible scenarios...thoughts and opinions welcomed.

Onaliv
12-11-2012, 09:54 PM
Reviewing all of the documentation available online makes me seriously question if one person acting alone could have killed the Walker's. What bothers me is that Cliff walked into the house, with his children, without any hesitation (of course I'm speculating based on the info I've read) and was evidently shot instantly (no sign of a fight between him and the killer(s) or that he was shielding the kids). I think if he had he any fear of "who" was inside (assuming there was a vehicle outside, which seems highly likely given the remote location of the house) he would have left the kids in the Jeep or at least outside. So my theory is that one of the killers greeted them outside...and because it was a known person there was no hesitation...the 3 Walker's went inside...and were shot by the other killer inside. My theory is subject to change...have been trying to run through all possible scenarios...thoughts and opinions welcomed.

Forgot to add, I am not suggesting that Smith & Hickock are the guys in this scenario...but if you read close enough there were "two" of the Walker's acquaintances in the vicinity...have only seen that one had their DNA tested and cleared...

PrayingMantis
12-12-2012, 04:34 AM
DNA May Help Solve 53 Year Old Murder Case - YouTube

Robin Hood
12-12-2012, 05:12 AM
Mods, I think this should be moved to here

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33764&page=6

wfgodot
12-18-2012, 08:26 PM
Police exhume bodies of killers from Truman Capote's In Cold Blood to collect
DNA evidence in connection to 1959 quadruple murder of Florida family (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250272/Police-exhume-bodies-killers-Truman-Capotes-In-Cold-Blood-collect-DNA-evidence-connection-1959-brutal-murder-Florida-family.html) (Daily Mail)

PFF
12-19-2012, 10:16 AM
See link regarding Perry Smith and Richard Hickock and Florida mystery
http://abcnews.go.com/US/cold-blood-killers-exhumed-investigators-hope-solve-53/story?id=18007706#.UNHLdiKtP1x

wfgodot
12-19-2012, 10:53 AM
WS Walker thread: FL FL - Cliff and Christine Walker & their 2 children, Sarasota County, Dec 1959 - Websleuths


Police exhume bodies of killers from Truman Capote's In Cold Blood to collect
DNA evidence in connection to 1959 quadruple murder of Florida family (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250272/Police-exhume-bodies-killers-Truman-Capotes-In-Cold-Blood-collect-DNA-evidence-connection-1959-brutal-murder-Florida-family.html) (Daily Mail)

marycarney
12-19-2012, 12:40 PM
I read In Cold Blood as a kid (sneaked my mom's copy out of the bedroom - she was NOT happy) and I've never forgotten it. I'm following this development closely.

Reader
12-19-2012, 04:04 PM
Well, I started a new thread on these new developments also (after doing a search) so it looks like the 3 threads need to be combined:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 'In Cold Blood' murderers investigated in Florida

Perodicticus potto
12-19-2012, 04:38 PM
I find this fascinating. Could completely alter the story we (think we) know so well.

kline
12-22-2012, 06:51 AM
Im afraid they are going to be disappointed in the results of this DNA test.

Sarasota
12-22-2012, 09:35 AM
Im afraid they are going to be disappointed in the results of this DNA test.

any data, or opinion?.....can you please elaborate?

justthinkin
12-23-2012, 03:47 PM
any data, or opinion?.....can you please elaborate?

Sarasota, back in the day, LE tried to match the fingerprints of Hickock and Smith to those found in the Walker residence. There was no match, this according to the document link Sean posted. See the one with 450 pages, page 12 IIRC.

Onaliv
12-23-2012, 08:09 PM
If I were a betting person, once DNA rules out Hickock/Smith, my opinion is that Elbert Walker drove Ozie Youmans to the house, finding her there alone OY did the assault on Christine Walker and they both did the killings...EW returned the next day and conveniently left OY "at a bar" during his being shocked act in front of deputies. Was OY ever ruled out by DNA? I have not found that, if it has, I will re-think my opinion, until then...

Sarasota
12-29-2012, 03:14 PM
Do we know how long it will take for the H & S DNA test results?

kline
12-30-2012, 05:23 AM
any data, or opinion?.....can you please elaborate?Oh,no data .
I just dont think Hickock and Smith were the killers of the Walker Family.
As Myself and others have said the Walker case reeks of a personal fix on Mr;s Walker.
Hickock and Smith would kill somebody if they thought they had money,they would kill for a car if they were on foot.
I m sure Hickock alone would have been capable of a sexual assault,he wanted to rape Nancy Clutter (after she was tied up...he seemd to be a bit of a coward) but that would have been collateral to the robbery and Smith had some very strong opinions about that type of thing and wouldnt allow it.
And even so to my knowledge prior to that Forcible rape didnt seem to be Hickocks M.O.he seems more like a pedophile seducer.
The Walker murder seems to be primarily a sexual assault....what in the world would Smith and Hickock want with Mr's Walkers Majorette Uniform or Marriage licence?
The Walkers also seemed to be poor working folks they sure didnt look like a likely target for robbery.
Ill certainly be interested in seeing the results of the DNA though!

scriptgirl
01-19-2013, 08:11 PM
The DNA results come back yet?

Onaliv
01-19-2013, 10:10 PM
...been wondering the same thing...

MaryLiz
01-22-2013, 08:44 PM
I get the Sarasota Herald Tribune (headlines) via e-mail every day and so far there is no word on the DNA results. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.

Sarasota
01-27-2013, 09:50 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/01/26/4033142/did-in-cold-blood-repeat-itself.html#storylink=omni_popular

Investanalysis
02-06-2013, 11:41 PM
Here's mine...:newhere:

Looking over the redacted case file, the facts hint at the actions of an early-stage sexual sadistic killer. Chiefly, the strong indications that sexual assault was the motivator coupled with the taking of mementos; indications of planning/preparation (albeit disorganized in nature); the absence of typical robbery characteristics ; the bumbling killings and the seemingly rapid progression through the sexual component all seem to point to a “lust killer” who’s progressing from assailant to murderer. The very personal nature of the two items taken that were linked to Christine Walker seems to be very telling. The majorette uniform and wedding certificate are items that have sentimental value, but no appreciable monetary value (and carried the heavy cost of risk of prosecution, if caught with them). Items of this nature, taken during commission of a sexually violent crime are almost always taken for one reason, the offender wants to relive the crime (or at least the portion of the crime that provides the euphoria/emotional release). Sexual sadistic killers (SSKs) take items that invoke the strongest nostalgia of their act. SSKs that attack victims of convenience (or surrogates for the object of their obsession) tend to take items closely linked to the victim and the crime (e.g. undergarments, jewelry worn by the victim during the crime, etc.). In this case, items taken that were linked to Christine Walker were independent of the crime, indicating that the killer’s intensive emotional build-up and attachment to the victim occurred prior to the crime, probably when she would have been routinely seen wearing the majorette uniform. The Disorganized Asocial Murderer variety of the SSK is characterized by strong feelings of inadequacy and seeing the objects of their obsession as “unobtainable objects”. Fixation on a female can easily be escalated when observing her in her most socially successful setting (further driving feelings of inadequacy by seeming more “unobtainable”). Christine Walker had often recounted, to her friends/family, fond times of being a majorette and was even reserving that uniform for her daughter, indicating that this was a socially progressive time for her. It’s also noteworthy that the uniform was stored in a cedar chest, out of plain view. And, the house seemed “in order” to investigators, indicating no visual evidence of rummaging. This suggests a level of focus, either in searching for that item that meant a lot to him or in knowing where it was kept and selectively retrieving it. The selection of the wedding certificate is also intriguing, given the gender roles in 1959. As the male was commonly seen as the dominant/superior component to the relationship, the killer could easily have seen the certificate as something of a “title of ownership” for Christine Walker, driving him to take it to affirm, in his own mind, his psychological possession of her. This crime also shows probability of planning, as the killer arrived at the Walker residence with a gun, on an evening just before Cliff Walker was going hunting and appears to have been on foot (less convenient, but more versatile/lower visibility for access and fleeing). There was also repetition and structured thought. All of the victims were shot in the head (initial shot above the hair line for all except Cliff Walker). The scene was partially altered in an apparent attempt to cover up or disguise the crime. Specifically, the bed was covered with bed-cloths hiding blood stains; Christine Walker’s legs were wiped and bloody clothing (possibly used as rags to wipe off) was bagged and discarded at another location. Although planning seems to have been an element, the crime scene clearly shows a disorganized nature. The blitz attack, lack of physical-restraint usage, opportunistic action and application of brute force, rather than coercion, are all classic disorganized assailant behaviors. Investigators all but concluded that the crime was initiated by a blitz attack on Christine Walker. Bruising on the arm and contusions on the cheek & forehead are indicative of brute-force submission. There was no indication of restraint usage reported, either from investigators or the medical examiner. The killer showed opportunistic tendencies by using readily available materials for everything except the shootings (nearby clothing/blanket for wiping up; using the closest bed for the assault, rather than moving her to the martial bed to enforce sexual dominance; bathtub drowning the girl, including the use of a sock to act as a drain plug). The method of the killings also indicates that the killer was inexperienced at this point. The selection of a gun is almost always driven by a mechanical desire for efficiency. Yet, a 22-caliber gun with short rounds is the least reliable percussion-cap selection. This proved to be true in this case, as the first round fired at Christine Walker’s and the son’s heads ricocheted without penetrating. While a lucky single shot to Cliff Walker’s head hit a weak point, just below the eye socket, and sufficiently damaged the brain to induce quick death, the other three victims were not so fortunate. The last indication that this may be a cross-over killing of a SSK is the apparently rapid progression through the sexual assault. Based on the investigator’s timeline, the killer didn’t have much more than 15-20 minutes to attack, assault & kill Christine Walker and possibly perform some post-event activities (retrieving mementos, cleaning/covering up). And, the clothing was disheveled, but not removed. Experienced SSKs have tendencies towards more planning, more organization and, most always, prolonged & more intense sexual assault and/or killing scenarios.

The mechanical and callous nature of the killings seems to hold clues to the killer’s mindset as well. The killer chose the systematic use of a gun over emotion-engaging methods, such as stabbing or strangulation (even when the ammunition was suspected to have been use up). This points to a purely capture-preventative measure, rather than an objective of the criminal act. Even drowning is a more aloof killing method, particularly for a male growing up in a rural and/or farming community where drowning of smaller/manageable animals is sometime viewed as an “acceptable” method of euthanasia. The killing of small children is highly unusual. Even in the realm of homicidal psychopaths, murdering children is taboo; and the younger they are, the stronger the taboo (this was even more true in 1959 society). For this killer to murder two young children, when it’s not fulfilling some desire, he would have to have a strong dissociation with society and minimal or no ability to empathize. The killer most likely thought that the kids could identify him, either because of a lack of understanding of early childhood retention & recall or possibly because they would know him by name.

Also noteworthy is the location that the bloody clothing was dumped. The clothing was found in an out-building, located just under two miles, directly west of the Walker residence and approximately a half mile east of the intersection of Highway 41 and Bay street. Present day, this location is approximately where residential transitions to business. If this was the same in 1959, this may indicate that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a closed business or on a vacant lot. This would allow for a reasonable hike through the woods/undergrowth to the Walker residence without being observed on the desolate portion of the road on which the Walkers lived.

If the non-redacted Walker case file also points toward a disorganized asocial sexual sadist, he would likely have attended Arcadia High School in the early 1950’s and would have been raised in very dysfunctional (likely abusive) household. He would also be of below-average to average intelligence and would be a social outcast; thought of as weird or odd, but perceived as generally harmless (except possibly when under the influence of alcohol or enraged). If he follows “typical” patterns, he would have moved away shortly after the murders. He would also continue to sexually assault women and may kill to elude capture (but, likely with a more powerful gun). And, he would introduce more organized control measures, such as restraints, coercion and selecting more controllable environments for commission of the crime.
:takeoff:

wfgodot
02-06-2013, 11:43 PM
Welcome to WS, Investanalysis.

Sarasota
02-08-2013, 12:19 AM
great post Investanalysis. Wow -- intriguing theories..... thank you for sharing this and you seem to have some local knowledge of the Sarasota area

Investanalysis
02-22-2013, 02:20 AM
Thanks, Sarasota & wfgodot.

I’m not from the area. I just segregated data within the three sections of the case file (the ones that you linked to) into categories, including geographical relationship. I then researched area mapping, property platting and established landmarks in an attempt to reveal patterns or relationships not obvious on the surface. Much has changed with time though. The portion of the road where the Walkers lived looks to be little more than an ATV trial now. And the railroad that is used as a landmark reference in several investigative notes is now a bike trail.

Here's hoping that DNA or other new evidence leads the Sarasota County Sheriff's department to close this one :crossfingers:

justthinkin
02-23-2013, 11:36 PM
Matthew Doig: “Basically, they (Hickock & Perry) were ruled out over faulty fingerprinting and a faulty lie-detector test."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/05/in_cold_blood_florida_murders_will_dna_tie_perry_s mith_and_dick_hickock.html


Faulty fingerprinting--Ah ha, now that clarifies why it was thought Hickock and Perry should be dug up. The years earlier return of "no match" may have been incorrect.

The KBI will take DNA from what was bone marrow, Kyle Smith said. He said one of its labs will do the analysis behind higher-priority tests for criminal cases about to go to trial, and he wasn't sure how long it would take.
http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/DA38GJI80

justthinkin
02-23-2013, 11:43 PM
Here's mine...:newhere:

Looking over the redacted case file, the facts hint at the actions of an early-stage sexual sadistic killer. Chiefly, the strong indications that sexual assault was the motivator coupled with the taking of mementos; indications of planning/preparation (albeit disorganized in nature); the absence of typical robbery characteristics ; the bumbling killings and the seemingly rapid progression through the sexual component all seem to point to a “lust killer” who’s progressing from assailant to murderer. The very personal nature of the two items taken that were linked to Christine Walker seems to be very telling. The majorette uniform and wedding certificate are items that have sentimental value, but no appreciable monetary value (and carried the heavy cost of risk of prosecution, if caught with them). Items of this nature, taken during commission of a sexually violent crime are almost always taken for one reason, the offender wants to relive the crime (or at least the portion of the crime that provides the euphoria/emotional release). Sexual sadistic killers (SSKs) take items that invoke the strongest nostalgia of their act. SSKs that attack victims of convenience (or surrogates for the object of their obsession) tend to take items closely linked to the victim and the crime (e.g. undergarments, jewelry worn by the victim during the crime, etc.). In this case, items taken that were linked to Christine Walker were independent of the crime, indicating that the killer’s intensive emotional build-up and attachment to the victim occurred prior to the crime, probably when she would have been routinely seen wearing the majorette uniform. The Disorganized Asocial Murderer variety of the SSK is characterized by strong feelings of inadequacy and seeing the objects of their obsession as “unobtainable objects”. Fixation on a female can easily be escalated when observing her in her most socially successful setting (further driving feelings of inadequacy by seeming more “unobtainable”). Christine Walker had often recounted, to her friends/family, fond times of being a majorette and was even reserving that uniform for her daughter, indicating that this was a socially progressive time for her. It’s also noteworthy that the uniform was stored in a cedar chest, out of plain view. And, the house seemed “in order” to investigators, indicating no visual evidence of rummaging. This suggests a level of focus, either in searching for that item that meant a lot to him or in knowing where it was kept and selectively retrieving it. The selection of the wedding certificate is also intriguing, given the gender roles in 1959. As the male was commonly seen as the dominant/superior component to the relationship, the killer could easily have seen the certificate as something of a “title of ownership” for Christine Walker, driving him to take it to affirm, in his own mind, his psychological possession of her. This crime also shows probability of planning, as the killer arrived at the Walker residence with a gun, on an evening just before Cliff Walker was going hunting and appears to have been on foot (less convenient, but more versatile/lower visibility for access and fleeing). There was also repetition and structured thought. All of the victims were shot in the head (initial shot above the hair line for all except Cliff Walker). The scene was partially altered in an apparent attempt to cover up or disguise the crime. Specifically, the bed was covered with bed-cloths hiding blood stains; Christine Walker’s legs were wiped and bloody clothing (possibly used as rags to wipe off) was bagged and discarded at another location. Although planning seems to have been an element, the crime scene clearly shows a disorganized nature. The blitz attack, lack of physical-restraint usage, opportunistic action and application of brute force, rather than coercion, are all classic disorganized assailant behaviors. Investigators all but concluded that the crime was initiated by a blitz attack on Christine Walker. Bruising on the arm and contusions on the cheek & forehead are indicative of brute-force submission. There was no indication of restraint usage reported, either from investigators or the medical examiner. The killer showed opportunistic tendencies by using readily available materials for everything except the shootings (nearby clothing/blanket for wiping up; using the closest bed for the assault, rather than moving her to the martial bed to enforce sexual dominance; bathtub drowning the girl, including the use of a sock to act as a drain plug). The method of the killings also indicates that the killer was inexperienced at this point. The selection of a gun is almost always driven by a mechanical desire for efficiency. Yet, a 22-caliber gun with short rounds is the least reliable percussion-cap selection. This proved to be true in this case, as the first round fired at Christine Walker’s and the son’s heads ricocheted without penetrating. While a lucky single shot to Cliff Walker’s head hit a weak point, just below the eye socket, and sufficiently damaged the brain to induce quick death, the other three victims were not so fortunate. The last indication that this may be a cross-over killing of a SSK is the apparently rapid progression through the sexual assault. Based on the investigator’s timeline, the killer didn’t have much more than 15-20 minutes to attack, assault & kill Christine Walker and possibly perform some post-event activities (retrieving mementos, cleaning/covering up). And, the clothing was disheveled, but not removed. Experienced SSKs have tendencies towards more planning, more organization and, most always, prolonged & more intense sexual assault and/or killing scenarios.

The mechanical and callous nature of the killings seems to hold clues to the killer’s mindset as well. The killer chose the systematic use of a gun over emotion-engaging methods, such as stabbing or strangulation (even when the ammunition was suspected to have been use up). This points to a purely capture-preventative measure, rather than an objective of the criminal act. Even drowning is a more aloof killing method, particularly for a male growing up in a rural and/or farming community where drowning of smaller/manageable animals is sometime viewed as an “acceptable” method of euthanasia. The killing of small children is highly unusual. Even in the realm of homicidal psychopaths, murdering children is taboo; and the younger they are, the stronger the taboo (this was even more true in 1959 society). For this killer to murder two young children, when it’s not fulfilling some desire, he would have to have a strong dissociation with society and minimal or no ability to empathize. The killer most likely thought that the kids could identify him, either because of a lack of understanding of early childhood retention & recall or possibly because they would know him by name.

Also noteworthy is the location that the bloody clothing was dumped. The clothing was found in an out-building, located just under two miles, directly west of the Walker residence and approximately a half mile east of the intersection of Highway 41 and Bay street. Present day, this location is approximately where residential transitions to business. If this was the same in 1959, this may indicate that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a closed business or on a vacant lot. This would allow for a reasonable hike through the woods/undergrowth to the Walker residence without being observed on the desolate portion of the road on which the Walkers lived.

If the non-redacted Walker case file also points toward a disorganized asocial sexual sadist, he would likely have attended Arcadia High School in the early 1950’s and would have been raised in very dysfunctional (likely abusive) household. He would also be of below-average to average intelligence and would be a social outcast; thought of as weird or odd, but perceived as generally harmless (except possibly when under the influence of alcohol or enraged). If he follows “typical” patterns, he would have moved away shortly after the murders. He would also continue to sexually assault women and may kill to elude capture (but, likely with a more powerful gun). And, he would introduce more organized control measures, such as restraints, coercion and selecting more controllable environments for commission of the crime.
:takeoff:


Welcome to Websleuths, Investanalysis!

I fully agree with your assessment. It seems spot on to me.

Sarasota
02-25-2013, 07:25 AM
photo on front of paper from home delivery today stated "dna tests points to the killers made famous by Capotes ICB"

I find it fascinating that this is being watched very closely academically..... wonder if they all know of this website?

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130224/ARTICLE/130229797/2416/NEWS?Title=Waiting-for-DNA-tests-to-thaw-a-cold-case

Investanalysis
03-10-2013, 11:10 PM
Does anyone know anything about the suspect, Mike Cutter, beyond that which is in the redacted case file? Of the suspects in the case file, he is the most interesting to me. And the information available is very limited. The facts that peaked my interest are:


•Cutter is originally from Arcadia


•He was listed as being “approximately 30 years old” at the time that Sheriff Earl B. Dyess (LaBelle, FL; Hendry county) received information. Sheriff Dyess reported that this was “approximately one year” prior to the FSB interview, which was conducted in June 1963. This could put him in the Arcadia High School in the early 1950’s, approximately the same time as Christine Walker.


•Cutter allegedly carried a picture of Christine Walker, either in his billfold or in his suitcase. If true, this indicates possible obsession or fixation.


•He was described as a “peculiar individual”, indicating that he is asocial. Although, this statement was not qualified or reinforced with additional information.


•Supposedly, he always carried “…a .22 automatic in a shoulder holster…”. The ballistics report stated that all of the shells recovered from the crime scene “…bear faint markings, indicating that they were fed through a rifle or an automatic pistol…”.


•It was noted that Cutter “…was acquainted with the entire Walker family, having been employed as a cowhand with various ranches in the area.”


•On the day of the murders, he “…allegedly drove a car, with a flat tire, all the way from Arcadia to LaBelle Florida, a distance of approximately 45 miles.”



oSimilarly, Deputy Sheriff Seth Howard (Hendry county Sheriff’s department) stated that Cutter, while drinking with “Dub” Allbritton, reported that a few weeks prior to the time that they were drinking together (about the time of the murder) “…he had to get somebody to take him to buy a couple of tires that he had ruined. He had two flats in Sarasota but he couldn’t stop, he just kept driving on them and ruined them and left his car in Arcadia.” This was from the dictated phone call from Howard to Sheriff Boyer on August 7, 1961.



oAccording to Google Maps, the distance from Arcadia to LaBelle is more like 60 miles. Also, the distance from Sarasota to Arcadia is approximately 45-50 miles.


•Deputy Sheriff Howard also stated that a Wylie “Dub” Allbritton, reported Cutter as saying “…that he knew the Walkers personally, had visited in their home…”


•Howard went on to say that Cutter had moved from Sarasota to LaBelle at approximately the same time as the murders. This was approximately a two-hour drive away.

Has anyone with access to local resources (e.g. school annuals in a public library, courthouse records, newspaper articles, etc.) found anything about this person? Or, has anyone who is people-search savvy been able to locate him (deceased, likely)? I’ve had no luck with the subscription and free sites that I’ve searched.:waitasec:

Sarasota
03-20-2013, 05:14 PM
more ICB fodder..... link from Shannon McFarland's (Sarasota Herald Tribune) tweet

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2013/03/fact_checking_in_cold_blood_what_the_new_yorker_s_ fact_checker_missed.single.html

EveDallas
03-23-2013, 12:11 PM
I wonder if there are any high school pictures of Christine Walker wearing that majorette uniform? And I wonder if somewhere in some attic, basement that majorette might still exist? Also if I were a detective still working the case I would tried to track down any remaining family members of Christine as well as surviving classmates to see if there were any bother who made her uneasily to be around.

EveDallas
03-23-2013, 12:17 PM
PS the reason why I asked about if there are any pictures of Christine wearing that majorette uniform is because like investanalysis stated if the killer took if to relive the crime then chances are that I bet he might have made some female wear that uniform too.

Sarasota
04-05-2013, 11:28 AM
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130404/ARTICLE/130409820/2416/NEWS?Title=After-50-years-Walkers-wait-to-learn-who-killed-their-relatives

another local article, and another unanswered tweet.........

@shanmcf good article, I enjoy the subject right off the driveway 1st thing in am. Any update on DNA results timeline for H & S?

Sarasota
04-08-2013, 09:10 AM
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130404/ARTICLE/130409820/2416/NEWS?Title=After-50-years-Walkers-wait-to-learn-who-killed-their-relatives

another local article, and another unanswered tweet.........

@shanmcf good article, I enjoy the subject right off the driveway 1st thing in am. Any update on DNA results timeline for H & S?

------------------------------
we have a reply, which further shows why patience is a virtue that I admire in others lol :blushing: :

@shanmcf good article, I enjoy the subject right off the driveway 1st thing in am. Any update on DNA results timeline for H & S?
Shannon McFarland
@shanmcf
@XXXXXXXX Thanks - not yet, it's definitely taking longer than anyone has predicted.

EveDallas
04-08-2013, 02:57 PM
To me the reason why I always thought that Hickock and Smith could not have committed the Walker murders was because being a small town and two strangers like Hickock and Smith would have stand out in everyone's mind, also this killer had to have been able to move around quite freely without attracting attention. Sometime like I just said H & S could not do in a small town. Question were any of the more wealther familes Including the family Cliff Walker worked for ever suspected? The Palmers did they have sons who went to school with Christine?

Onaliv
04-08-2013, 09:01 PM
I agree with your viewpoint on H&S, not sure about the Palmer family but doubt any involvement...my personal suspicion involves individuals who have been discussed previously that had a familial connection with the Walker's.

EveDallas
04-11-2013, 12:05 PM
I agree with your viewpoint on H&S, not sure about the Palmer family but doubt any involvement...my personal suspicion involves individuals who have been discussed previously that had a familial connection with the Walker's.

But most of the majors suspects have been ruled out

grace60
04-14-2013, 05:03 PM
Another article. Christine's sister and Christine in her majorette uniform
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130414/ARTICLE/130419815/2416/NEWS?Title=Sister-s-violent-death-left-a-tormented-family

EveDallas
04-17-2013, 04:59 PM
thank you for posting that picture of Christine Walker with her majorette uniform, but I believe that the family is going to be awfully disappointed in the DNA results, which seems to take forever, because like I posted earlier that I don't believe H & S committed the murders, this is very personal, why would H & S take a majorette uniform and a marriage license, they would have taken Cliff Walker's guns instead

justthinkin
04-23-2013, 06:13 PM
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130423/ARTICLE/130429870/2055/NEWS?Title=Walker-murder-mystery-I-wish-they-would-catch-em-

STANDREID
04-23-2013, 08:44 PM
I posted earlier that I don't believe H & S committed the murders, this is very personal, why would H & S take a majorette uniform and a marriage license, they would have taken Cliff Walker's guns instead

I agree, it would be very unlikely (but not impossible) that some guilty party didn't know the victims for some time.

grace60
05-21-2013, 09:17 PM
Some new info http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/trail-heats-up-in-sarasota-killings-linked-to-cold-blood-case/2121488

Sarasota
05-21-2013, 09:49 PM
Some new info http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/trail-heats-up-in-sarasota-killings-linked-to-cold-blood-case/2121488


thanks for the link, good find... I had been convinced prior to a few years ago that H & S did not have the courage to do this...... now, not so sure. Nothing would surprise me.

Sarasota
05-30-2013, 07:26 AM
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130529/WIRE/130529642/2416/NEWS?Title=Walker-murders-DNA-testing-inconclusive-so-far

Backwoods
05-31-2013, 05:16 PM
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20130529/WIRE/130529642/2416/NEWS?Title=Walker-murders-DNA-testing-inconclusive-so-far

No offense to the KBI intended, but I sort of wish the FBI was in on this testing.

scriptgirl
06-01-2013, 08:30 AM
What's "KBI"?

Backwoods
06-01-2013, 07:30 PM
What's "KBI"?

Kansas Bureau of Investigation

Eagle
06-15-2013, 02:58 PM
Has either Curtis McCall, Tooker, or Stanley Mauk been cleared in the case ... either thru DNA or anything else ?

On Hickok & Smith ; I have my doubts, but I wouldn't write them off either. Bothers me that Smith was arrested with a pocket knife like Cliff Walker's. Just as he was also found to have pawned a $10 radio he took from the Clutter's son's room. He seemed to take along personal effects of victims and had a thing for knives in particular.

The fact Curtis McCall could not remember 'who' he sold his .22 pistol too, shot up a big red flag to me. People don't tend to "forget" who they sold a firearm to, nor when / where / for how much / etc. And he sure claimed he couldn't remember anything. He also 'disappeared'. Did they find him ? There some Curtis McCall's around Arcadia, Fl well into 1990's.

The other thing, in about 1962 a rusty rifle was found buried by 2 kids near where the Walker's lived and was suspected as being the murder weapon. Anyone know if it was ever examined and/or what they found in relation to this gun.

The outifit of Christine's and marriage certificate on the wall.... are rather personal and interesting items for any killer to take. Suggests a connection to someone who knew them to me. I hope DNA will help them nail down who did it.

Sarasota
08-14-2013, 07:09 AM
the Herald Tribune now charges for online content for those that do not subscribe, so I am posting without the link...... personally I would have been surprised if there was a match.


NO DNA MATCH with Hickock and Smith

Backwoods
08-14-2013, 08:40 AM
DNA tests fail to link 'In Cold Blood' killers to Florida murders

KANSAS CITY, KANSAS (Reuters) - DNA tests failed to prove a suspected link between the 1959 murders of a Kansas family portrayed in the book "In Cold Blood" and a quadruple homicide in Florida later the same year, authorities said on Tuesday.

However, the inconclusive testing was based on poor DNA samples that had undergone years of storage and handling. ...

..."Based on the totality of the evidence, investigators still regard Smith and Hancock as the most viable suspects in the Walker murders. However, DNA testing seems unlikely to provide conclusive evidence one way or the other," the statement said. ...
more at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-incoldblood-20130813,0,3005526.story



Hopes of solving 1959 quadruple murder cold case are dashed as police fail to connect 'In Cold Blood' killers with slain Florida family

... Authorities said they were unable to match the DNA because only partial profiles could be taken from the exhumed bodies in December, and the Walker crime scene samples were old and degraded. No more tests were scheduled.

‘The complication lies in the fact that there's still some uncertainty,’ Bell said. ‘It wouldn't exclude them but it also does not provide us with any level of confidence to say there's a match because there's not.’ ...

... Testing decades-old DNA can be difficult, said Dr. Michael Baird, the laboratory director of the DNA Diagnostics Center in Ohio. ...

...He said testing a partial DNA profile would be like looking at a fingerprint that didn't have all the swirls. ...

read more at: http://metronewsday.com/news/12524-hopes-of-solving-1959-quadruple-murder-cold-case-are-dashed-as-police-fail-to-connect-in-cold-blood-killers-with-slain-florida-family.html

Reader
08-16-2013, 01:47 PM
DNA Fails to Link 'In Cold Blood' Killers to Fla. Case

http://gma.yahoo.com/dna-fails-cold-blood-killers-fla-case-200136605--abc-news-topstories.html

DNA evidence failed to link the notorious duo profiled in Truman Capote's novel, "In Cold Blood," to the 1959 slayings of a Florida family, ending authorities' best hope for closing the cold case.

Perry Smith and Richard Hickock had long been suspected in the December 1959 murders of Cliff and Christine Walker and their two children in Osprey, Fla. The family was slain one month after the pair killed the Clutter family in Kansas, a crime for which they were later hanged.........

Despite the fact that a DNA link was not able to be made, Rose said that "based on the totality of the evidence, investigators still regard Smith and Hickock as the most viable suspects in the Walker murders." ......more at link.....

STANDREID
08-16-2013, 04:25 PM
DNA evidence failed to link the notorious duo profiled in Truman Capote's novel, "In Cold Blood," to the 1959 slayings of a Florida family, ending authorities' best hope for closing the cold case.

That's about the same surprise as the sun coming up this morning.

kline
08-17-2013, 04:22 AM
That's about the same surprise as the sun coming up this morning.Absolutley totaly NOT surprised.
Im a little puzzled by the investigators response about them STILL being the most viable suspects...based on what?
I would think the perp's DNA not being either Perry Smith's or Hickock's might compromise that hypothesis.
I had a feeling all along with all the hyped publicity about the exhumation and DNA tests that someone was going to end up with egg on their face.

tex124
08-27-2013, 01:43 PM
This does not make sense to me. I could understand that they might not have gotten good enough samples from Hickock and Smith (in which case why can't they dig them up and try again?) but to say that "the Walker crime scene samples were old and degraded" raises a red flag to me. Haven't they already eliminated a whole bunch of people based on those same samples? That would tell me that they already have a DNA result in the system which they are using. Why would they need to test the samples again, unless there truly was a problem with them in the first place, in which case all the people who were eliminated based on the results should be back on the suspect list.

Eagle
08-28-2013, 06:39 PM
There are different "kinds / types" of DNA tests, that give different information at different levels. They may not have been the 'type' that they could compare, although I would have a hard time believing that.... because common sense says to do the same "type" as what you already have results for, unless they couldn't do that "type" on the samples they obtained (degraded, etc).

Backwoods
08-28-2013, 07:02 PM
I guess, speaking unscientifically, perhaps what they could get from the older samples was enough to conclusively rule out, in some instances, but not enough to conclusively "rule in" Hickock and Smith.

CanManEh
08-28-2013, 10:47 PM
I can't believe no one has botherd to mention they they were condemed to hang and they confessed ..Why would they not confess to the walkers if they had done it were they afraid of being hanged twice i dought it your only dead once they had no reason not to say ya we did it if they actually did it since they were gonna die for the clutters anyway.

flourish
08-28-2013, 11:46 PM
I remember seeing the movie "In Cold Blood" about 1967. It was done in Black and White, and it stayed pretty close to the book by Truman Capote, and to the actual case.

Robert Blake played the part of killer Perry Smith, and the movie opens with a shot of Blake as Perry sitting in the back of a bus with his foot propped up on the seat in front of him. I still remember some idiot sitting in the row behind me saying to his friend, "That's the shoe they trace him with." (Thanks a lot of spoiling the movie for others!)

The story is about Perry just getting out of prison and meeting up with his prison buddy, Dick Hickock. Hickock has a scheme to rob a "rich" rancher named Clutter, and the two set out to do that. They go to the Clutter's Kansas farm home, break in, surprise the family (Dad, Mom, Son, and Daughter), tie them up and demand that they give up the combination to a non-existant safe. Frustrated and angry, Perry Smith proceeds to kill the entire family.

The rest of the movie is about the two on the run and the investigation into the Clutter murders.

This case about the Walkers has some similarities to the Clutter murders and by a big coincidence, Perry and Dick happened to be in a nearby Florida city at the time. Did they do it? Hard to say. They certainly had the background and experience to have done it, but what would have been their motive?

In the end, the two were hanged in Kansas. They both denied having anything to do with the Walker murders.

Bump

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 4

December
08-29-2013, 11:11 AM
Could it be the missing majorette uniform and marriage certificate were crimes of opportunity after the murders? It seems a lot of men liked to try to drop by in hopes of finding poor Christine alone (I'm not saying that is her fault). NOW no one in their right mind would step into a house full of murdered people unless they were prepared to go to PRISON for those murders. But, in 1959, no one thought about DNA testing. The most they would be worried about would be leaving fingerprints.

So, what if someone committed these murders.

Another person stole the very personal items (and maybe even more than we know about.. just nothing of enough significance to be noticed).

Then the friend discovered the murders and reported them to the police.

So, three people in the house (at least) besides the police and victims. Or could someone have snatched those items while the police were there? One article said newspaper photographers helped document the scene. Who else was in the house? Someone said the retired railroad worker was lurking about in a photo they saw.

How many police were even available to work the case? Four victims is a lot.

I will say that one of the forsenic items that is now perhaps useless is Christine's panties. There was something not belonging to her or her husband there. But, it molded. So, it was useful to a point, then became less useful to useless.

The man that found the victims commented about how messed up Christine's face was from the beating she endured. Everyone is assuming that was only to subdue her for rape. What if the murderer was mad at her?

Maybe the murderer thought Christine had given it up to one of her many admirers (I am not saying she did, I don't know her). And so, he was mad he wasn't getting any too and her protests went unbelieve and her attempts at rebuff made him even madder. Men* will lie. Someone lied about Christine and that lie made it to the ears of the wrong person. The liar may be the person Cliff fought with a few days before.
ETA
*women will also lie, but it doesn't sound like any women wanted to have sex with Christine

December
08-29-2013, 01:27 PM
Here is an article I found. It is fairly recent. I don't know this site or how well they research things, but they seem to have read several reports.

Also, they have some nice photos of Christine in her majorette uniform. Also, a nice photo of Christine and Cliff.

Duh, the link

http://krazykillers.wordpress.com/tag/sarasota-county-florida/

tex124
08-29-2013, 04:51 PM
Well, I think what we are being told is BS. The authorities already have a viable sample from the Walker crime scene otherwise they would not have been able to eliminate so many suspects over the last two decades. As for the samples from Hickock and Smith-if they weren't good enough they should try again. I remember reading about the controversy over whether Jesse James was actually buried in his grave in Missouri-his body was exhumed in 1995 and dna compared to his descendants' and it came out a match. You can't tell me that a body from 1882 is any less degraded than one from 1964. I also read about how they matched the dna from the bodies of the children of the last Tsar of Russia to that of Prince Phillip-the Romanov kids were buried without coffins in 1918, so I would think that their bodies would have been even more degraded than Hickock and Smith. Something does not smell right about this. It is like someone has decided to let sleeping dogs lie, for whatever reason.

I think Backwoods was exactly right: it would have been better had the FBI done the testing, rather than the KBI.

December
08-29-2013, 05:29 PM
Well, I think what we are being told is BS. The authorities already have a viable sample from the Walker crime scene otherwise they would not have been able to eliminate so many suspects over the last two decades. As for the samples from Hickock and Smith-if they weren't good enough they should try again. I remember reading about the controversy over whether Jesse James was actually buried in his grave in Missouri-his body was exhumed in 1995 and dna compared to his descendants' and it came out a match. You can't tell me that a body from 1882 is any less degraded than one from 1964. I also read about how they matched the dna from the bodies of the children of the last Tsar of Russia to that of Prince Phillip-the Romanov kids were buried without coffins in 1918, so I would think that their bodies would have been even more degraded than Hickock and Smith. Something does not smell right about this. It is like someone has decided to let sleeping dogs lie, for whatever reason.

I think Backwoods was exactly right: it would have been better had the FBI done the testing, rather than the KBI..

I don't know why they didn't go for the teeth. Isn't that the best repository of DNA after death? I mean, these guys are dead. They really do not care if they're relieved of a molar or two.

But, some of these articles aren't well written. I thought the degraded sample was the one left at the crime scene.

tex124
08-29-2013, 09:02 PM
I had the same problem with the articles. The degraded samples that they are talking about are the ones from the crime scene which, as I have pointed out does not make sense, since they should already have a dna result on those which has been used to clear many potential suspects, so why test it again? The articles suggest that they only obtained partial dna from Hickock and Smith, for whatever reason. It sounds to me like someone did not do a good job (I mean what are the odds that both bodies would only yield partial dna?). Like I say, if you can get enough dna from a century old corpse to clear up who is buried where, I can't imagine that you would not be able to do the same from someone who has only been in the ground for a relatively short 50 years. I would not be surprised if it is disinformation being put out by the lab and the reporters did not know any better to question it.

Now I have read that certain soils cause a problem in gathering dna, for instance if bodies are buried in peat bogs there is a reaction from the soil that makes it difficult to gather dna, but I assume that both Hickock and Smith were protected in a coffin, so that factor should not have occurred.

I find it strange. I would love to know what the opinion of the investigating officers in Florida is.

I first read "In Cold Blood" when I was a youth in 1973, and even back then I thought that Hickock and Smith were responsible since I thought it was too coincidental that they just happened to be in the area at the time. As for the fact that they did not confess to the Walker murders: I don't find that strange at all. Many killers don't confess to murders they committed before they are executed. An example is James Hanratty, who went to the gallows claiming his innocence of rape and murder in 1962 and many people were convinced of his innocence. In 2002, a dna test proved that he committed the rape and murder "beyond a reasonable doubt".

December
08-30-2013, 12:52 AM
Tex124, I think a lot of murderers don't think they are guilty of anything. It is, in their minds, somehow all the victim's fault. No matter how convoluted of thinking is required for them to lay all of the blame that THEY should take onto the victims, they will do it. And then, they will tell anyone who will listen of their "innocence." And a lot of people will listen, somehow forgetting that the murderer has made sure the victim is not around to contradict the killer's story. So, I agree, those two creeps not confessing doesn't mean they didn't kill the Walkers.

One of the linked stories says the two of them were in a Sarasota department store and one had a "scratched up face." Well, it is known that Chrstine fought back against her attacker even pressing her high heel shoe into service as a weapon.

scriptgirl
08-30-2013, 10:30 AM
where does it say that Christine's face was messed up from a beating?

December
08-30-2013, 10:55 AM
where does it say that Christine's face was messed up from a beating?

It is in one of the videos. I'll see which post it is.

eta
it is post 148. page 6.

December
08-31-2013, 04:03 AM
The relative of Christine talking about how unfair people were being by claiming she brough the rape on herself (which I agree with him 100% there), that is a typical criminal tactic... to blame the victim. The person who started the smear campaign against her may well have been the killer or influenced by the killer.

I wonder if people were saying anything particularly bad about her BEFORE she died.

scriptgirl
08-31-2013, 06:30 AM
thanks, December.

December
08-31-2013, 04:07 PM
thanks, December.

You're welcome. ^-^

Eagle
09-03-2013, 08:25 PM
It was said, that the gun was believed to be a .22 rifle, and one was found a long time later buried in dirt not that far away from the location of the house.

Who, takes a "rifle" to a rape ? Who takes a 'rifle' period ? Unless it's all they have available. They came in a 'car', so it may have been in the car and then pulled out after he attempted to rape her, beat her, etc. and decided to eliminate her as a witness.... and then the family arrived, so they shot them too.



I wonder if people were saying anything particularly bad about her BEFORE she died
I remember in a few of the articles about her, etc. that they mentioned people made comments about her body and wearing things that "showed too much" , such as the cheerleading outfit..... too much at that time and age... well, was a skirt above the knees. I remember some of the pictures showed her in shorter shorts (for that time) which was considered a "disgrace". I remember my sister had to have shorts that were barely above the knee, and considered short at the time. Mid-calf of the leg, was the "respectable" length for shorts, and "those teenagers" & what they were wearing, as well as "rock-n-roll", was going to corrupt the world at that time. Then throw in that this was a small town community.

Eagle
09-03-2013, 08:48 PM
I can't believe no one has botherd to mention they they were condemed to hang and they confessed ..Why would they not confess to the walkers if they had done it were they afraid of being hanged twice i dought it your only dead once they had no reason not to say ya we did it if they actually did it since they were gonna die for the clutters anyway.

Good points, and I would have to agree. They even said, the "Clutters" didn't deserve that (what they did to them). They admitted they had read about the Walkers, and even commented themselves it was weird because it was similar to what they had done. But said, they had nothing to do with it. I think at that point, they would more than likely admitted to it if they had done it. I think it was someone local.

But, who knows... the other side is that one was a "robbery" , and the other may have been a "sexual" motive , and maybe one was OK to admit to and the other not. Or, they didn't want to appear to be serial murderers.

Don't forget , that there is an extremely good argument out there that Hickok & Smith were cellmates previously, and their relationship was much more than just "buddies" ..... and Smith admitted he didn't like Hickok wanting to do something sexually with Nancy Clutter ...... and this may have been what got Smith so mad that he let out his anger at Hickok then by killing Mr Clutter.

kline
09-04-2013, 06:13 AM
Ive been reading and re-reading alot of the articles on this since the whole exhumation took place.
I think their are alot of factors at work here.
I realize Christines Family members have had to endure alot of talk about Christine somehow provoking her own murder.
(apparently for having the temarity to be an attractive out going woman with a killer body and I would bet from looking at her face alot of charisma in a backwards 1950's rural community)
So I can see why they would see Proof of Smith and Hickocks guilt as a form of vindication after all these years.
And I am sorry for them that they had to face disappointment once again.
But there also seemed to be a REAL hunger in certain areas of the media to discredit Truman Capote and In Cold Blood.
('Capote(who by the way was a homosexual alcoholic who died of an overdose in 1984) didnt get the name right of some auto repair company in Talhasie where Hickock says he applied for a job...OMG!!!')
("Was Capote's 'Factual' Novel Actually a Lie?")
And so on ad nauseum.
Also a break through on this with a Perry and Dick tie- in would have been a real Marquee Worthy Career maker for the young law Enfocement officer who got this ball rolling.
Especially after previous investigators had exausted all the DNA suspects of the last 50 odd years and come up with a big zero.
(I noticed she now has to refer all inquiries on the case to her superiors)
Alot of agendas going on here.
Some understandable some not so much.
But the fact remains it wasnt Dick and Perry.
I got the impression that two thirds of the folks who wrote about this case in the media never actually read Capote's book.
In which Perry Smith expressed his loathing of Rapists and Sex Offenders which is why he stopped Hickock from assaulting Nancy Clutter.
So I kind of doubt he would rape Christine Walker and steal her majorette uniform.
You dont have to be a genius to see this case screams of a perp with an intense personal fix on Christine.
One of the articles had an old black and white photo of Christine leading a parade down what I assume is Osprey's main drag when she was in high school high stepping and twirling her baton...this was a striking young woman who would have drawn attention good and bad in a small town today much less back then and I would bet anything her killer was in her school or along one of those parade routes transfixed.
As far a witnesses seeing Hickock with a 'scratched up face'...Hickocks face was messed up and bizzare looking due to a 1950 auto accident.
I think they just took that and ran with it in retrospect.
As far as Hickock and Smith being lovers because they shared a cell for a few months..based on what proof?
Its like those who assume since Capote was gay then his interest in Perry Smith SURELY MUST have been sexual.
This whole mess has been a prime example of reaching a conclusion first then trying to bend and twist the narrative and evidence to fit it.
Never works.

kline
09-04-2013, 07:32 AM
Oh by the way Eagle I wasnt taking a shot at you about the Perry and Dick being lovers business....those stories and the ones about Capote and Perry come almost exclusivly from two people involved in the case one being Harold Nye a detective assigned to the Clutter case by KBI who seemed to want to crawl out of his skin around Capote and who also seemed to be REALLY slighted by the fact that in the book Capote made his fellow detective Alvin Dewey essentially the 'hero' of the case.
He seemed to feel he had been unfairly regulated to a supporting character.
Which may be true.
However in virtually every article for which he was interviewed for the next couple of decades concerning the case he seemed to go far out of his way to take a shot at Capote ussually concerning his sexuality and to minimize Alvin Dewey's contribution to the Clutter Case.
The second was at the time a very young prosecuting attourney in Finney County named Duanne West.
He and Capote seem to have taken an immediate dislike to each other.
Once during the final stages of the book West took a half hearted invitation by Capote to "Look him up if he was ever in New York." literally and Capote drafted Harper Lee to help ferry West and his Wife around NYC to see a broadway play and out dinning in some upscale club.
Then West turned around and nearly held up publication of the book by refusing to sign a release form for months apparently just to bug Capote.
There is a video on Youtube where West is on film saying Perry Smith never said anything and had to be dragged up the gallows steps sniveling .
However I found in a Newspaper archive an article by a Kansas reporter who was at the execution, printed the VERY morning after in which he reports Perry's final words as being almost verbatim as to what Capote said they were in the book.
So it was interesting to see some of these ancient 50 year old personality conflicts STILL coloring reporting and peoples perceptions on this subject in 2013.

tex124
09-04-2013, 02:20 PM
To Kline:

I agree with most of what you say, except the part about "the fact remains it wasn't Dick and Perry".

We still can't say that, after all this time and testing. The testing did not rule them out, any more than it ruled them in:

"Authorities said they were unable to match the DNA because only partial profiles could be taken from the exhumed bodies in December, and the Walker crime scene samples were old and degraded."

When they say there is no DNA match, that is true, but also it does not rule them out. I know I am beating a dead horse here, and I tend to agree with you (all other things being equal) that the most likely suspect would be someone who knew the Walkers, except for two things:

1) What are the odds that a family is murdered at the same time two killers who have done the same thing in another jurisdiction happen to be passing through (frankly, it sounds like some Hollywood murder mystery where the local sheriff picks on some poor schmuck who happens to be covered in blood and holding the murder weapon and some hero private detective or lawyer figures out who really committed the murder. In real life, the obvious explanation is usually the correct one), and

2) I don't believe the statement that "the Walker crime scene samples were old and degraded". They had already been used to eliminate a bunch of suspects, so either that testing was no good, and everyone they eliminated should be back on the suspect list or (and this validates your other point) there is some other agenda at work here.

I can believe that (1) is a coincidence, however unlikely. I find it impossible to believe that the samples were no good.

Years ago, I worked on a capital murder case and it taught me that in prison everyone lies to you. In fact, they lie so often and so well that eventually they start to believe the lies as reality. I can believe quite easily that Hickock and Smith (if they killed the Walkers) could have gone to the gallows denying that fact, just like Hanratty did with the murder he committed. They would do so even if they were already condemned for another murder. Killers do not think the way you or I do, in spite of Capote's efforts to make it seem like they are just regular citizens.

kline
09-06-2013, 12:00 PM
To Kline:

I agree with most of what you say, except the part about "the fact remains it wasn't Dick and Perry".

We still can't say that, after all this time and testing. The testing did not rule them out, any more than it ruled them in:

"Authorities said they were unable to match the DNA because only partial profiles could be taken from the exhumed bodies in December, and the Walker crime scene samples were old and degraded."

When they say there is no DNA match, that is true, but also it does not rule them out. I know I am beating a dead horse here, and I tend to agree with you (all other things being equal) that the most likely suspect would be someone who knew the Walkers, except for two things:

1) What are the odds that a family is murdered at the same time two killers who have done the same thing in another jurisdiction happen to be passing through (frankly, it sounds like some Hollywood murder mystery where the local sheriff picks on some poor schmuck who happens to be covered in blood and holding the murder weapon and some hero private detective or lawyer figures out who really committed the murder. In real life, the obvious explanation is usually the correct one), and

2) I don't believe the statement that "the Walker crime scene samples were old and degraded". They had already been used to eliminate a bunch of suspects, so either that testing was no good, and everyone they eliminated should be back on the suspect list or (and this validates your other point) there is some other agenda at work here.

I can believe that (1) is a coincidence, however unlikely. I find it impossible to believe that the samples were no good.

Years ago, I worked on a capital murder case and it taught me that in prison everyone lies to you. In fact, they lie so often and so well that eventually they start to believe the lies as reality. I can believe quite easily that Hickock and Smith (if they killed the Walkers) could have gone to the gallows denying that fact, just like Hanratty did with the murder he committed. They would do so even if they were already condemned for another murder. Killers do not think the way you or I do, in spite of Capote's efforts to make it seem like they are just regular citizens.Yeah one would think the viabilty of their crime scene DNA would be the FIRST thing they would establish before they started winnowing down their suspect list based on DNA, eliminating virtually all of them.
Because if it is in such a state that it cant 'include or exclude Smith and Hickock' then the same would have to be true for all of their original primary suspects.
As far as them being in the area when the Walker murders happened it is truly weird but the Clutter Killers covered ALOT of ground in the month after the Kansas murders.
Passing through many States.
Im sure crime occured in every major city they passed through while they were there and obviously they werent responsible for all of it.
I think its admirable that the investigators took a long shot to break the stasis of this case by thinking outside the box but I notice the worthiness of the crime scene DNA wasnt even an issue until AFTER it didnt match Hickock and Smith.
Perhaps they didnt anticipate all of the publicity but by the time the results finally came back I think many had alot invested in it being them for alot of different reasons.

December
09-07-2013, 01:09 AM
Maybe there are degrees of matching or something... and the people they excluded didn't match at all while the Clutter murderers matched a little. But, not enough to say it was or wasn't them because there are thousands of other people who'd match just as much?

This being said, I don't know why those two guys would be interested in the marriage license or the majorette uniform. But, I still wonder if the murderer is even the one who took that stuff.

The bloody bootprint turned out to belong to a "careless deputy". Maybe someone else got careless and those two items disappeared after the murders.

kline
09-07-2013, 02:39 AM
Maybe there are degrees of matching or something... and the people they excluded didn't match at all while the Clutter murderers matched a little. But, not enough to say it was or wasn't them because there are thousands of other people who'd match just as much?

This being said, I don't know why those two guys would be interested in the marriage license or the majorette uniform. But, I still wonder if the murderer is even the one who took that stuff.

The bloody bootprint turned out to belong to a "careless deputy". Maybe someone else got careless and those two items disappeared after the murders.Entirely possible.
I wish I knew more about DNA analysis,im afraid my knowledge is about CSI miami level.

Eagle
09-08-2013, 01:58 AM
This being said, I don't know why those two guys would be interested in the marriage license or the majorette uniform. But, I still wonder if the murderer is even the one who took that stuff.

Personally, I think that's probably the case .. "unless" .... as suggested it was a person who knew her well, had a fantasy about her related to the days she wore the outfit, etc. And, I think the odds of that are as high as other theories on it.

My information was that Perry & Smith spent more than a few months in the same cell, and more like a couple of years. If you've been around prisons at all, your cellie has your back and you theirs, and .. well, close bonds of all types do develop. The info. that I referred to, refers to those that were in prison with them and what they had said about their relationship, not some detective. Either way, don't know that any of it had anything to do with they did or didn't do.

What I keep going back to is the .22 rifle that was found years later nearby buried in the dirt (over time or intentionally, don't know).... that goes with that they were convinced it was a .22 rifle used to shoot them. But, it still might not be the 'same' rifle.. but is suspect to me when it was found 1/2 mile from their house. I've wondered due to today's technology even sn#'s that seem gone, can be lifted ... and who this gun would track back to , if it could be tracked back to anyone at this point (doubtful).

kline
09-08-2013, 02:47 AM
Personally, I think that's probably the case .. "unless" .... as suggested it was a person who knew her well, had a fantasy about her related to the days she wore the outfit, etc. And, I think the odds of that are as high as other theories on it.

My information was that Perry & Smith spent more than a few months in the same cell, and more like a couple of years. If you've been around prisons at all, your cellie has your back and you theirs, and .. well, close bonds of all types do develop. The info. that I referred to, refers to those that were in prison with them and what they had said about their relationship, not some detective. Either way, don't know that any of it had anything to do with they did or didn't do.

What I keep going back to is the .22 rifle that was found years later nearby buried in the dirt (over time or intentionally, don't know).... that goes with that they were convinced it was a .22 rifle used to shoot them. But, it still might not be the 'same' rifle.. but is suspect to me when it was found 1/2 mile from their house. I've wondered due to today's technology even sn#'s that seem gone, can be lifted ... and who this gun would track back to , if it could be tracked back to anyone at this point (doubtful).You know thats a good point,one would think they would still have that rifle and wouldnt they be able to determine if it was one used as the murder weapon via balistics?
Of course im sure in a rural hunting/gator infested community like that a .22 caliber rifle was pretty common to most house holds...it may have nothing to do with the crime but still its something.

December
09-08-2013, 02:49 AM
Eagle, I think it is more than likely someone who knew Christine and recalled seeing her marching in parades. But, if it does turn out to be those other two then I do not believe they took the majorette uniform or the marriage license.

And I agree about the .22 rifle. Not too many people would bury a rifle without a good reason. Now, whether it could be traced to anyone is another story entirely. But, who knows, someone might recall who once had a .22 like that one particularly if that person suddenly no longer had it. Hmmm... wasn't their one suspect who sold his rifle and could not remember who he'd sold it to?

scriptgirl
03-21-2014, 07:49 PM
I still say it was someone who knew and was obsessed with Christine that did this.

Backwoods
03-22-2014, 02:31 AM
I still can't consider Hickock and Smith out of the picture on this one.

Some interesting stuff in the third installment of a series, linked below -- we may have already had the first two installments, not sure...but anyhow there are links to those as well at this link (blue bbm):


Sunday Favorites: What Really Happened to the Walkers?

Part 3



...This connection is unfounded to some degree, but other pieces of evidence discovered within the killers' vehicle strongly suggests they had come into contact with the Walker family.

According to the SCSO, a pocketknife bearing a fruit tree design, children's socks and a greasy toddler's undershirt were found in the car.

Items taken from the Walker home after their murders included children's clothing, Christmas presents and a pocketknife with a fruit tree design that belonged to Cliff Walker, a report states. ...


...Investigators later found some of the Walker's stolen clothing in a field a mile from their home, a detail similar to the Clutter murders (http://www.gcpolice.org/History/Clutter/Cutter_Family_Murders.htm) where investigators found personal items buried in a Kansas field. Hickock later admitted to authorities he sold two baby dolls wrapped in Christmas paper to a preacher in Louisiana.

The investigation stalled a couple years later when a serial killer named Emmett Monroe Spencer admitted to the Walker murders, but the confession was discredited by the then-Sarasota County Sheriff Ross Boyer ...


Yet details on Spencer indicate he and his girlfriend went on a crime and killing spree throughout the country and along the East Coast and into Florida, which one court record referred to as an “orgy of drunkenness, robbery and murder.” ...


...Sarasota County Sheriff’s detectives submitted Christine Walker’s underwear, which was found with semen on it, to the Florida Department of Investigation in 2004; four years later a complete DNA profile was obtained from the underwear, while a second partial DNA profile was also discovered. ...


more at: http://www.thebradentontimes.com/news/2013/09/08/law_enforcement/sunday_favorites_what_really_happened_to_the_walke rs/

scriptgirl
03-25-2014, 06:59 PM
Whoever did this was local. I wonder, if all the men who went to high school with Christine were investigated and if Cliff ever knew of anyone fancying Christine.

Eagle
03-30-2014, 08:21 PM
Eagle, I think it is more than likely someone who knew Christine and recalled seeing her marching in parades. But, if it does turn out to be those other two then I do not believe they took the majorette uniform or the marriage license.

And I agree about the .22 rifle. Not too many people would bury a rifle without a good reason. Now, whether it could be traced to anyone is another story entirely. But, who knows, someone might recall who once had a .22 like that one particularly if that person suddenly no longer had it. Hmmm... wasn't their one suspect who sold his rifle and could not remember who he'd sold it to?

I would have to do some digging again, but there was one person who they said had a rifle "like it", but when asked about his rifle.... he said he had 'sold it' but couldn't remember they guy's name he sold it too. Which I found odd, since he had supposedly sold it near the time of the killing. Don't take my word on it, but it seems like I remember .. this person lived only a couple of miles away from them.

justthinkin
04-07-2014, 01:42 AM
I still can't consider Hickock and Smith out of the picture on this one.

Some interesting stuff in the third installment of a series, linked below -- we may have already had the first two installments, not sure...but anyhow there are links to those as well at this link (blue bbm):



more at: http://www.thebradentontimes.com/news/2013/09/08/law_enforcement/sunday_favorites_what_really_happened_to_the_walke rs/


I agree. There are indeed some similarities between this and the Cutter case that can't be ignored, in particular, circumstantial evidence. I also wonder if police failed to extract dna from the teeth of Perry and Hickock? I don't know much about dna either, but recently read that dna can be extracted from teeth even if it is no longer viable from bone.

Eagle
05-31-2014, 03:36 PM
How many suspects .... are even still alive ? If some were talked to when they were older, etc... some times they want to clear their conscience / minds before they are gone, about things they have done.

Eagle
07-08-2014, 04:38 AM
How many suspects .... are even still alive ? If some were talked to when they were older, etc... some times they want to clear their conscience / minds before they are gone, about things they have done.

And sometimes, they forget what they've said in the past.... and the truth or other clues then come to the surface as well. That's happened in numerous cold cases. Also, they may have said things to some people along the way..... and then sometimes, like you said..... they've lived with it so long and just want to get it out and said.

December
07-10-2014, 04:02 AM
I still say it was someone who knew and was obsessed with Christine that did this.

She was beautiful.

This case upsets me so much. They seemed like a nice family minding their own business in their little house. And the children were so small...