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CW
01-23-2006, 01:24 AM
Continue on with Maura thread.

Peabody
01-23-2006, 11:05 PM
Continue on with Maura thread.
I am hoping that you websleuthers will not give up on discussing Maura's case. Maura's family believes that the numerous "hits" here on websleuths has been a help in convincing the media to feature Maura.

Also, there is very interesting reading and a time line on www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com/)

For you new comers many photographs of Maura can be found at www.spbowers.com\mauramissing.html (http://www.spbowers.com/mauramissing.html)

hydemi
01-24-2006, 10:10 AM
While we wait for various developments to play out--Judge Vaughn's ruling in Grafton County on Mr. Murray's suit, the 20-20 program to air, the new PI & retired police team to dig into Maura's case--I have been sifting backing through posts and news articles.

1) DocWho wonders in his 11/13/05 post if Maura's "death in the family" excuse in leaving UMA was really just to buy time, and how she could have returned to campus without someone questioning this lie or her family finding out.

2) In the CNN interview with Soledad O'Brien on 2/17/04 Lt Rausch is adamant and totally certain that the "chilling voice mail" he received on 2/11/04 on his cellphone at the Okla City airport (sic--he says Tuesday morning which was 2/10 ) "what I believed to be Maura whimpering and crying in the background."

3) Other than the $280 from the ATM withdrawal, did Maura have more money or could she have sold her jewelry or schoolbooks etc to raise cash?

Her Father in the AP/Globe interview of 2/21/04 says "to take a break or start a new life, she would need money...she hasn't used her ATM card (again)...she hasn't spent a dime" implying that she did not have any more money than the ATM withdrawal.

4) Two years later and all we have are unanswered questions.

docwho3
01-24-2006, 11:37 PM
Often, even though it may be hard for some to understand, people leave:
Such cases as the one below are why it is not inconceivable that a nice young lady might choose to leave. Note that the time involved is 16 years. That is why in a previous post I mentioned that Maura has not been gone all that long in terms of this type of case, even though I am sure it seems like forever to her family.


. . . An Angels Camp mother of three who vanished nearly 16 years ago has been found alive and living a new life in Colorado, an investigator said yesterday.

Patricia Lea Whaley disappeared April 20, 1990, after telling her family she was headed to a doctor's appointment in Lodi, causing family and law enforcement in Angels Camp to speculate whether Whaley had been kidnapped or killed.

Whaley's van was found in a Lodi parking lot, along with her purse and identification. But no trace of where Whaley had gone was discovered until last Thursday when Calaveras County Senior District Attorney's Investigator John Crawford plugged Whaley's name and Social Security number into the department's new Accurint computer search program . . .
. . . The investigator contacted law enforcement in Colorado, who assisted in locating Whaley.

Crawford said the find was bittersweet.

Whaley, he said, does not want to see or be contacted by her family . . . http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=951074&postcount=1

Thread located at:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35484

Peabody
01-26-2006, 04:57 PM
According to www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com) Maura's case will be featured on the Nancy Grace Show Friday January 27




We have been advised that Nancy Grace will be airing a story on Maura, which is scheduled for this Friday, January 27th, 8-9PM ET. Please check your local listings for more information and viewing times. Nancy's website (listed below) does not contain information about the show, but several people that are to appear live advised us of Friday night's show (thanks!).

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/nancy.grace/ (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/nancy.grace/)

dark_shadows
01-27-2006, 01:18 PM
This is the answer the father got from law enforcement about the files;
http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/6495654/detail.html

SewingDeb
01-28-2006, 01:27 AM
Nancy Grace Transcript Jan. 27, 2006:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/27/ng.01.html

bykerladi
01-30-2006, 10:30 AM
Its very ununsual for a Judge to decline to order the release of documents, especially when they could be turned over redacted if there was a concern of injury to the investigation. I don't think Maura's family had anything to do with her disappearance, but the decision from the Judge sounds like the police suspect them.

KatherineQ
01-30-2006, 01:16 PM
So. There IS something in the records he doesn't know. That much seems certain.

Someone, or some piece of physical evidence, something that he doesn't know about.

All along I kind of thought there wasn't anything - but there is.

What a frustration for him.

armywife210
01-30-2006, 04:54 PM
I have numerous questions about this case, and I am wondering if perhaps the answers are out there and I just haven't located them. Some of them may not seem that important to you, but they may be. Perhaps someone can help me answer them.

What is with the letter that is said to have been left in her room? The one ?TO? or
?FROM? her Bill Rausch? I have found conflicting accounts of this. It's a pretty black and white question, doesn't seem like there should be conflicting accounts about it. If there was a letter from him, what did it say? I read somewhere that all letters found in her room to and from Bill were just of the mushy variety.

What was her reason for transferring from West Point and how long before her disappearance did she do that? West Point is a very elite school, one that is outstanding to have graduated from. GO ARMY BEAT NAVY!

Where is Bill Rausch now? Still at FT Sill Oklahoma or has he been stationed elsewhere? Is he seeing anyone else? This may seem like a nosey he said she said sort of question, but I think it may be important to know if he has moved on.

Those are my starting blocks.

I don't think that Maura disappeared on her own accord. There is something very wrong here, and it has nothing to do with her family.
I know she lied about why she took off for a week, but to think that her family would have automatically found out about that is crazy. She had her cell phone with her so she was reachable by her family. She was 22, it's not like she needed a note from her dad to miss class. Perhaps she just needed time away alone to think. It seems to me that she was losing her way. I think she was confused about what she wanted out of life, and she was scared of that. So why did she pack up her room? Maybe she wasn't sure what was going to happen when she got back. Maybe she didn't think that she would opt to stay at UMass. and just wanted to have everything ready for when she got back. Honestly it sounds like she was "stir crazy" just before she left because she knew she had to get away and think FOR A WEEK, and just wanted to have everything set for whatever her week of decisions led her to choose to do. In the end, I don't think she had that choice.

These are some of my rantings, I am sure I will have more.
Pray for Maura

tuppence
01-30-2006, 06:23 PM
Help - question: Has it ever been confirmed that she packed up her room before she left? I thought that people close to her said her room looked packed up because she had just moved in a couple weeks before and hadn't unpacked yet.

This seems like an important point to clarify.

armywife210
01-30-2006, 08:25 PM
I was wondering the same thing! Most Cadets, graduated or not, have it drilled into their heads to be neat freaks (I am married to a class of 99 graduate, and dated a class of 02 Cadet while he was still a Cadet, he transferred out). If she hadn't had the time to unpack and put things on her walls, etc, then I can easily see where her room might look as though she had packed before leaving.


Help - question: Has it ever been confirmed that she packed up her room before she left? I thought that people close to her said her room looked packed up because she had just moved in a couple weeks before and hadn't unpacked yet.

This seems like an important point to clarify.

docwho3
01-31-2006, 12:09 AM
The point of packing or unpacking was discussed quite a bit.
One set of exchanges on the subject are found
Starting at post #186 of the part 2 discussion of Maura Murray
and going to about post #198
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26673&page=3&pp=40

Also some of my remarks in that exchange refer back to some posts
that start at post #120 going to post #128
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26673&page=4&pp=40

Whether or not anyone agrees with my own particular thoughts on the case:
In the posts 120-128 I cite sources and provide links for the facts used in the posts and
the underlined links may prove helpful in discussions about various asects of the case.

hydemi
01-31-2006, 12:36 AM
Dear AW210,

your questions are crucial.

Sharon, Lt Rausch's Mother, did detail and rebut the early stories in the papers that Maura left a suicide note on top of her stuff in her room--there were only letters from Lt R to her.

See her note as a link to an article in the Daily Collegian late (Sept?) 2004.

Peabody on this site in November replied to me & DocWho about her leaving West Point in Jan 2002 because she did not want to do the five years of regular army duty required upon graduation.

Lt Rausch graduated from the Academy in summer 2002 and is still stationed at Ft Sill doing his regular duty.

I have questioned both on this site and on the MauraMurray site whether she in fact really wanted to be an "Army wife" if you know what I mean. Her sister Julie graduated in summer 2002 as well, and had introduced her to Lt R, so Maura certainly understood that if she stayed with Lt R she would in some way be continuing with Army life even if she was not herself RA.

I have supposed she was having a crisis about these issues and wanted to get away for a few days after cracking up her Dad's car--but was in conflict and had ambivalent feelings about returning to or leaving UMA.

But we don't know after two years what really happened to her, and her reasons for leaving UMA or her state of mind may be unrelated to whatever happened to her after the accident with her 96 Saturn in NH.

armywife210
01-31-2006, 02:04 AM
ok so Maura left in January of 02. I can understand not wanting to finish out her WP career, it's a big commitment. Also, as my husband says, West Point is an Excellent school to have come from but it's not always an Excellent school to be grinding your way through. And he is a die hard optimist who believes that life is what you make of it and everything can be either good or bad, depending on what you want it to be. Not only are the academics very high standard, the honor code is high, very strict, and very expected. Also you are doing full time training to become an officer of the United States Army. Those coming from WP are expected to be the best of the best. Because her boyfriend got through WP, he had to have a high level of integrity. I don't believe that if there was anything "shady" about her that he would have wanted to be with her. I also don't believe that he could not have known. If he made it through West Point, he is not lacking intellectually.
I checked through my AKO account and he is still stationed here at Ft Sill, just in a different unit than my husband.
I don't believe, for the life of me, that Maura just up and left on her own accord.
The girl had nothing, barely any money, etc. AND she had a strong sense of responsibility. Because she didn't graduate from West Point, she would automatically owe them money for the time that they had educated her. This can easily be deferred until which time she finished school elsewhere and could pay it so that wasn't a pressure point, but it is a responsibility that I don't believe that she would just walk away from.
I don't see anything being wrong with her father just assuming the worst. I mean he knows her better than most people do and knows she wouldn't just flee. Some people refuse to let go to someone who has disappeared, but there are some that are just realists. Their form of functioning is to just grasp at the realistics of the situation.
What do you guys think?

hydemi
01-31-2006, 09:07 AM
Actually it is not known how much money she had above the $280 from the ATM--she might have had more we just don't know.

If you look on the MauraMurray website at posts by mickeyg162, a girl named Megan who was a mate of Maura's and Julie's at WP, she too asks about Maura having more money and possibly a plan to get away and keep going.

I was totally unaware that the cadets who leave early have a loan or debt to repay--could you elaborate or steer us to the usma website for details?

That would make a difference to me in terms of her psychology--she is doing two jobs, financially independent, on full scholarship at UMA, paying her own way including plane fares to Okla City, about to get help from her Dad for another car and then cracks up his car doing an estimated 10K in damages perhaps worrying about the insurance claim & coverage feeling guilty and responsible for the new financial liability. By all accounts she was very frugal and all this money worry on top of everything else she was feeling?

BTW I did my advanced training in artillery school at Ft Sill way back in 1971.

docwho3
01-31-2006, 10:18 AM
. . .I don't believe, for the life of me, that Maura just up and left on her own accord. . . You are entitled to your belief of course but she had faced a really tough schedule in WP and then even trying to switch careers and schools which only made that load worse or, at the very least, the same amount of hard work due to the uninterrupted load she took to make the switch. That is enough by itself to make one consider taking other measures to reduce pressures, such as leaving the way she did. And if she had already decided to leave while at WP she at least knew that she could not do so without going through the legal procedures. She did that and,according to peabody, even tried hard to do extra studying beyond her WP schedule to be able to switch to nursing & all this was, according to peabody, mostly uninterrupted work.

You yourself have mentioned how hard that work can be at WP without doing extra as she attempted to do and I have not mentioned any possible track activities she was involved in on top of that. In short, although many people are quick to say they don't see her just up & leaving without really stating what facts support that view, there seem to be many facts that point towards her having left of her own will, from the pressures she was under, to her lies to the school and employers, as well as failing to notify her relatives or her boyfriend of her plans to leave or to at least explain to them about the fake "death-in-th-family" excuses or to even inform them about it at all to her having taken most of her money out of her account, to her having taken some things with her, and according to L.E. she left her room packed up ready to leave, including having taken down pics from the walls (altough that point has been in some dispute on this forum.) And then there is the book being marked in the chapter about life or death decision, marked with a pic of her little brother and a halmark card. It seems the signs of willful leaving are everywhere in this case so if it should turn out that foul play was done (as unlikely as that seems)then Maura herself muddied the waters with her death-in-the-family leaving stunt.


. . .I don't see anything being wrong with her father just assuming the worst. I mean he knows her better than most people do and knows she wouldn't just flee. . . I wish I had a dollar for every time I have read that having been said by family of a missing person and then the missing person turns up, sometimes years later and is fine. I recently posted about a case that took 16 years to resolve. (I added the bolding to the quoted material.)


. . .Some people refuse to let go to someone who has disappeared, but there are some that are just realists. Their form of functioning is to just grasp at the realistics of the situation.
What do you guys think? I am not so sure that it is "grasping the realisitics of the situation" to assume she is dead in this case. It may actually be more comforting in this instance to not have to think your loved one might have decided to leave but I can't say it strikes me as being "realistic", especially given that by far statistics show that most of the time a missing person has not been abducted or been the victem of foul play. So unless we see some forensic evidence of foul play I would think they would want to hold on to the very real possibility that she is alive, especially given the facts that she seems to have planned to disappear for at least some amount of time.

I do think that the possibility of foul play should not be ruled out unless or until she is found but willful leaving should not be ruled out either without some actual evidence pointing to foul play.

You asked "what do you guys think?" and that's what I, for one, think. I hope it helps.

armywife210
01-31-2006, 11:11 AM
I have no idea where to find info that if you leave WP you owe for the time you attended. However, my husband who graduated from WP told me that you can leave West Point anytime before your first class of your junior year, after that you are committed. If you do choose to leave before your junior year you owe money for the time you attended. At the time that he was there, he stated, it was something like 50,000 a year. However all credits transfer easily to other schools, as West Points credits are beyond standard, and when you transfer out you can defer that debt until at which time you graduate elsewhere and can pay it. It is charged in very low monthly payments with little to no interest. It is certainly nothing to break a sweat over. While 50,000 is a lot, it's comparable to all elite colleges and it's not as though she owed it immediately. She wouldn't even start paying until she graduated and then she would pay it off just as everyone else pays off their student loans. The time at West Point was not wasted, nor was the money. Her core classes that she would have taken at UMASS would have been simply done at WP, thus leaving her less at UMASS.
I am wondering though how it is perfectly legal to just leave on your own accord when you have any kind of debt. Also, a person cannot legally just up and change their identity and leave their old life and identity behind without leaving a paper trail unless they are in some kind of witness protection program. So for this reason alone I do not understand why LE is not putting forth more energy to find her. I don't believe that she left on her own accord, but even if it did this is reason for LE to be searching.

As a side note, my husband just told me that he does know LT Rausch, in fact, he works with him. Due to so many changes within the Army system lately (battallions joining other brigades, etc) I didn't even realize this. Apparently they hold the same position except my husband is at a higher level. Because their current positiions have to do with finances and budget within the unit, they work together.

.


I was totally unaware that the cadets who leave early have a loan or debt to repay--could you elaborate or steer us to the usma website for details?

That would make a difference to me in terms of her psychology--she is doing two jobs, financially independent, on full scholarship at UMA, paying her own way including plane fares to Okla City, about to get help from her Dad for another car and then cracks up his car doing an estimated 10K in damages perhaps worrying about the insurance claim & coverage feeling guilty and responsible for the new financial liability. By all accounts she was very frugal and all this money worry on top of everything else she was feeling?

BTW I did my advanced training in artillery school at Ft Sill way back in 1971.

hydemi
01-31-2006, 03:17 PM
your posts have added some new life to this discussion.

While the 75K or whatever she owed was deferred for another year or two, it was till there as a future liability however easy the terms.

What a coincidence that your husband works with Lt Rausch.

I see you have registered on the MauraMurray website--good luck trying to make sense of those heated debates most of which point accusing fingers at all the neighbors in the area especially the busdriver who tried to help her.

I believe she probably left the scene on foot (no evidence whatsoever that she was picked up by a passing motorist) and may very well have been seen by the construction worker four miles east or somewhere in the vicinity.

He is the "last" person to see her in this view of the case, and is therefore in my view the leading "person of interest" in any ongoing investigation.

And I believe that the mysterious Wed am phone call received by Lt Rausch on his cellphone while he was going through security at the Oklahoma City airport was most likely from Maura, not from the American Red Cross unit in Ohio as stated by police--see Sharon's posts on the Maura website.

Many have asked about checking her social security number for usage--we assume it has not been used--but I personally think (many will disagree) that in this day of the internet and online "anything goes" she could have obtained new documents for a new identity.

armywife210
01-31-2006, 04:02 PM
Yes, it is a future debt, however what student doesn't have that debt????? Unless ofcourse they do finish WP, in which case they do still have that debt through a 5 yr commitment to the United States Army.
How many students have turned up missing? We certainly cannot say that they all fled due to stressors in their lives and a student loan. I am still paying my student loan off, I pay 58 bucks a month. If I had to pay that for the rest of my life it certainly wouldn't stress me out. Even 100 dollars a month would be nothing to sweat even WITHOUT a college education.
I respect all of your ideas, and certainly am not meaning to come of as though I dont.
This is what I think happened..
Maura, for whatever reason, decided to go on a little self discovery trip by herself. She needed to refocus her life. She felt as though she was letting her father down with all of her recent problems, and that was weighing on her. I think she was an overachiever and expected only the best of herself and that can be stressful as well. She took her cell with her so she certainly wasn't cutting off communication. She had just gotten a triple A membership and maybe that gave her a bit more confidence about driving a car that wasn't mechanically sound. She lied to her professors about why she was needing to leave. Come on, the oldest excuse in the book is that a relative died. She only took enough clothes for a week, and she took her books. She had to have known that if she were going to get money for the books that the best place to do it was at the university that teaches with those books. That is where she would get the most money for them. She took them to study so she wouldn't get behind. She took her favorite book because to some a favorite book can be read and reread. She thought she might want it.
I believe that she tried to tell Bill because she had tried to call him a few times. She didn't want to email it. She was checking her voicemail, waiting for a return call I am sure.
When she rounded that corner and got into that accident, she didn't panick, hiding and trying to avoid LE. If you reread what the bus driver said, he said that he offered to have her come in to his home and warm up while he called for help. Well a big ol scary looking guy might unnerve me a bit too. She said she already called triple A because she didn't want to go inside with him and was trying to give him the message that someone is going to be here any minute so don't get any ideas. A more clean cut type person came around that corner and she got in with him. She didn't know that the bus driver had already called for help anyway. I don't know if it was farther down the road that she got a ride, or right at the accident scene. She wasn't hiding from LE, she was afraid of the big guy. She locked her car when she left. She didn't trust that big guy. Why would she lock her car if she wasn't coming back for it? Would it really matter to her if something got stolen? I think she was just going to get a bit farther down the road until she got a cell signal, that might mean the next town, where she could call for help.

nnglas
01-31-2006, 04:29 PM
I think that your posts are very interesting. To me, this story really is an unsolved mystery. I still think that someone may have been with her. I'm wondering if she told the bus driver that she had already called for help because the other person with her had already gone for help. The reported amounts and types of alchohol bother me. It makes me think she was buying for more than herself. Also, the fact that the car was not in good enough shape to drive long distances, makes me think that someone else could have been with her.


I also have a question about LE. I read that they told the family that they didn't know that a girl was associated with the car because it was registered to her father. But, if they talked to the bus driver that night, and they they went looking for her, how could they not know a young woman was involved. If anybody could shed some light on this I would greatly appreciate it.

hydemi
01-31-2006, 05:20 PM
I agree with most of what you say.

The new stress financially speaking was not the student loan, of course, but the two car accidents and the cost of repairs & claims etc.

Again we do not know how much money she had with her.

Everyone has assumed from the get-go that she got a quick ride except, it seems, her Dad initially and SearcherMe on the Maura site who spent endless hours investigating the roads for evidence of her travelling on foot.

and of course she was on foot if the contractor sighting story is true.

And it appears the temperature that evening was in fact in the 30's not ten or twelve as reported--so her going on foot would be more credible

There really is no evidence of her planning to leave UMA before that weekend after the first accident with her Dad's car.

She was mapquesting that night (Sunday, 2/8/04) right when she talked to her Dad at 11.26pm to ask about him getting home to Weymouth.

Please keep digging and posting! I only care about finding out the facts which will ultimately lead to finding her.

armywife210
01-31-2006, 06:09 PM
The new stress financially speaking was not the student loan, of course, but the two car accidents and the cost of repairs & claims etc.

Everyone has assumed from the get-go that she got a quick ride except, it seems, her Dad initially and SearcherMe on the Maura site who spent endless hours investigating the roads for evidence of her travelling on foot.

and of course she was on foot if the contractor sighting story is true.

And it appears the temperature that evening was in fact in the 30's not ten or twelve as reported--so her going on foot would be more credible

There really is no evidence of her planning to leave UMA before that weekend after the first accident with her Dad's car.

She was mapquesting that night (Sunday, 2/8/04) right when she talked to her Dad at 11.26pm to ask about him getting home to Weymouth.

Please keep digging and posting! I only care about finding out the facts which will ultimately lead to finding her.
As badly as I am sure Maura felt after those car accidents and that added expense, I can't see that being much of a significance in some emotional breakdown that would lead to disappearing on her own accord. I can see the first accident being a stressor for her crying at work, but not for disappearing. This girl is a very level headed girl, even in the midst of crisis I dont think she would make such a rash and thoughtless move as to leave her life and loved ones behind wondering endlessly.
The reason that people have assumed that she was picked up at the scene was because the dogs were unable to track her beyond the bus drivers driveway.
Whether she was picked up there or down the road, my scenerio still stands. And I think that the weather wasn't much of an issue either way because she was probably dressed somewhat warmly, she was an avid runner and ran for miles daily regardless of the temperature.
I agree with you about the planning of the trip completely.

Thanks for taking my thoughts into consideration!

docwho3
01-31-2006, 08:02 PM
Before I comment further let me say welcome to the recent posters. I am glad to read your thoughts. I may at times argue a different view but I respect you and your thoughts and thank you for posting them.

My main problem with the theory of a stranger abduction of Maura is that it requires that a murderous stranger happen along at just the narrow 10 minute (or less) slot of time from when she was sighted to when the cops got on the scene. He or they nab Maura and drive off quickly, thanking their lucky rabbits foot all the way for their good fortune.

The odds against that happening would seem to me to be higher than would be the odds that she already had someone following the same route with the idea of helping her leave and to be there following the same route in case the car should break down. Also the stranger abduction theory requires that we pretty much ignore the money she withdrew from her account and the other things she did that were indicative of her going away.

Side note: It is entirely because her death-in-the-family excuse is the "oldest trick in the book" that she knew it would not work but it might just mislead/lull investigators into thinking this was only a temporary outing and that she would soon return. They might not look so hard for her and she might have had time to complete her disappearance. Everything I have read about Maura indicates she was not the least bit stupid and certainly would have figured a better lie to tell about taking time off if she felt it was needed.
In this case the "stupid" lie suited her purpose.

However, I can't completely rule out a stranger abduction so I think it is good to look at all possible angles of the case.

hydemi
01-31-2006, 09:08 PM
Actually the "crying at work" occurred Thursday night after midnight, which would be around 1am on 2/6/04 at Maura's dorm security job. She was said to be so upset that she was escorted back to her dorm Kennedy Hall by a supervisor. At first police thought the cause of her being upset was a cellphone call Maura had with her sister Kathleen who described a big fight she had had with her boyfriend, and Maura urged Kathleen to stick it out & stay with him. This occurred around 10pm according to Maura's cellphone bill received for Feb 04 by Sharon Rausch whose son Bill shared a cell account with Maura.

So this account of her being upset is another mystery (some even think it was staged or faked).

Yes, she could have been picked up by a passerby including the construction worker or an accomplice as Doc supposes somewhere down the road from the accident scene in Woodsville.

Yes, she ran all the time in cold weather so temperatures in the 30's should not have bothered her. She left brand new gloves on the front seat of her car, evidently little worn, which were used for the scent dog on Wednesday possibly not doing the trick very well because she hadn't worn them much.

While I agree with Doc that the greater odds still favor the original police theory of her running away of her own accord--the main argument that she was harmed has been that everyone just knows she would never go away without contacting her family or Lt R or anyone else in her life for two years--
we still are just theorizing as to her plans for leaving UMA for good and where she might have gone and how she pulled off starting a new life.

armywife210
02-01-2006, 02:02 AM
Ok, I inadvertently gave you guys false information. I talked to my husband more in detail and it seems that we misunderstood eachother. Maura didn't owe West Point any money. The way it works is once you attend the first class of your Junior year you are committed. At that time if you opt out you owe 50,000 for every year attended. If you opt out before than you owe nothing. SO sorry about giving you guys false information, and I am so glad that I talked more to my husband tonight about it so I could set the record straight. Normally I don't go blabbing my mouth without first knowing for certain that the information I am putting out is accurate, but I definately set you all wrong this time! Again, sorry.

hydemi
02-01-2006, 09:52 AM
Dear AW,

at the very least it shows that Maura knew she had to leave WP when she did--she had completed three terms--otherwise she would be in the pickle of owing if she started a fifth term after summer 2002.

If you read Peabody's posts back in November on her leaving West Point, I would be interested in any comments or impressions you have.

The obvious thought is that if she left West Point because she did not want to do the five year required service after graduation...did she have similar second thoughts about whatever was ahead for her staying at UMA?

armywife210
02-01-2006, 06:19 PM
This is the post with the questions about WP that I found. Were there more?

First of all, I have verified that LT Rausch did graduate in 02.

WP isn't for everyone, and people do transfer out. Also, the commitment to the Army after graduation isn't for everyone. I don't think that it was a quick decision at all to leave. I think she had thought about it for awhile. It isn't something that you discuss with instructors because if you decide to stay in, you really don't want them thinking less of you or your desires to be an officer of the US Army. West Point takes those desires very seriously. They don't want half hearted officers graduating from there. The educate and train the best of the best. It is a school that goes far beyond the norm in every category, but especially when it comes to belief and integrity in what you are doing. Their honor code is probably the strictest thing protected there.
I think she thought about it a lot, and perhaps kept it totally to herself until she realized that her true desire was to leave.

were there more questions that I didnt get to?
I would have read more but my kids came home from school.

hydemi
02-01-2006, 09:15 PM
Dear AW,

thanks again.

just to be sure the specific post I am mentioning is quite long as a response to me, dated 11-28-05 on this site written at 12.59 am by Peabody who is a friend of the Murray family and a prolific poster & advocate for Maura.

It strikes me that if Maura thought so long and hard (keeping things to herself) about transferring from WP she probably did the same in considering her taking off from UMA even if it has seemed that she just suddenly left, somehow triggered by her weekend during which she wrecked Dad's car.

I doubt this--she seems such a careful deliberate person.

Anyway this is the post I meant--the most information I have seen to date about Maura's time at West Point including how she met Lt Rausch.

armywife210
02-01-2006, 10:27 PM
Dear AW,

thanks again.

just to be sure the specific post I am mentioning is quite long as a response to me, dated 11-28-05 on this site written at 12.59 am by Peabody who is a friend of the Murray family and a prolific poster & advocate for Maura.

It strikes me that if Maura thought so long and hard (keeping things to herself) about transferring from WP she probably did the same in considering her taking off from UMA even if it has seemed that she just suddenly left, somehow triggered by her weekend during which she wrecked Dad's car.

I doubt this--she seems such a careful deliberate person.

Anyway this is the post I meant--the most information I have seen to date about Maura's time at West Point including how she met Lt Rausch.
Peabody is completely right about the way WP works.
As far as her taking off from UMA, I don't believe she packed up anything that she wasn't taking. I don't believe she unpacked. She was a busy girl and hadn't been back long. Her weekends since she got back had been busy. If you don't have time to totally unpack, unless you can live in an incredibly unorganized room with comfort, you just opt NOT to unpack until you have time.
I am also in complete agreement about not staying in the same dorm room. Sometimes you move every semester, other times just every year. When the holdays come and school is out, the dorms close and everything has to leave because nobody will be there to make sure all is secure....a perfect time for someone to come and steal everything.
My opinion is that she didn't choose to leave UMA. She chose to take a week off. She went on an adventure to clear her mind. I don't even think that she had much soul searching to do because she was doing what she loved, she wasn't far from graduating, she loved her boyfriend, her parents weren't overbearing, etc. I think she just needed to blow some steam, she was running on overload. I don't believe it was some big secret that she was taking off. She was probably going to call her dad that night, as was planned. She was checking messages to see if her boyfriend called her back. When she stopped for the night I am positive that both of those calls would have been made. Something stopped that.
I wanted to say too that I am willing to bet that her boyfriend paid all of her plane tickets to come see him. I know my husband did, as a 2nd LT just out of WP. While the pay isn't that outstanding yet, he was single. In addition to his pay, he also receives his housing allowance (BAH basic housing allowance) which more than covered my husbands rent even when he was a 2nd LT. This was before we were married, he had a corvette at that time, that isn't cheap upkeep, he paid atleast 200 dollars in long distance phone bills monthly because we talked so much, he paid all of my expenses for coming down there, and he still was saving money from his paycheck. Also, when you become a junior at west point you get a substantial loan from USAA with very very low interest. The cadets don't pay on this until they graduate. Most cadets invest this right away and by the time they get out of WP they have substantially more money than their loan was that they can get to at any time. With all that my husband spent monthly, he still didn't have to touch that. Oh, and he wasn't just buying 1 plane ticket but also one for my 4 year old daughter...

hydemi
02-02-2006, 09:45 AM
Very helpful, thanks.

To summarize:

Maura had not unpacked yet, as she was too busy the last ten days

She took just what she needed (running clothes, stuff for 3-4 days) and the jewelry because she was concerned about room security?

She was only taking a break to blow off steam after the accident with Dad's car,
was not seriously upset about anything, pretty much ok & normal

She was planning to call Lt R and her Dad that night as promised, had both her cellphone chargers as needed (my addition from another Peabody post)

She would have returned and resumed at UMA after 3-4 days after her little adventure break in the White Mtns, no one the wiser and did not worry about the "death in the family" excuse causing any problems

Is this a fair summary?

I wonder:

Was she upset about something else on the Thursday night when she had to be escorted back to her dorm room from her security job?

Was there something else she was upset about which she did not tell Lt R during the 4.59am phone call to him on Sunday morning?

Was she concealing how upset she was from her Dad that weekend?

Why didn't she return Lt R's calls or answer his messages on Sunday and Monday till the early afternoon when she was leaving UMA--she did get her cellphone back at 8.30pm Sunday from Sara Alfieri's room, yet she says in her email to Lt R around 1pm Monday "I didn't feel much like talking to anyone."

She calls him after 2pm Monday as she is planning to leave, and doesn't mention her plans for departure--why not?

If she was the caller to Lt R's cellphone on Wed am as he believes, why didn't she leave any message or call back?

Obviously I believe there was more going on than her just taking a break for a few days, but I am asking these questions which I have puzzled over for many months as I think they hold the key to her disappearance--and the last one is really the most important as her being alive and calling Lt R on Wed am is the most baffling and crucial clue in figuring out what happened after she left the Woodsville NH accident scene.

See Sharon's notes on 2/11 in the Case Info section timeline dated 10/22 on the Maura site for the best account of the Wed am phone call and her disputing the statement by NH police that it came from the ARC, also her post just a few days ago on the Maura site clarifying that this phone call definitely did not come from the ARC office in Ohio as claimed by NH police.

T-Rex
02-02-2006, 01:59 PM
I've been reading for hours, catching up on this case.

To me, the simplest explanation is she continued toward Woodstock on foot. She was headed east; her footprints led east; she knew the area to the east; and the police, who came from the west, didn't pass her.

Somewhere along the way, she either froze to death, or someone picked her up.

I mapped the accident site, plus the place she was supposedly seen an hour later. She should have reached the next town at midnight. The first things she would come to, according to Google Earth, would be the Carriage Motel and Truants' Taverne.

It would be good for someone to follow her footsteps on a similar night. Is it doable? At what point would you give up and start looking for a ride? An empty cabin? A shortcut through the woods?

One more clue would be how she dealt with her previous accident. Did she call AAA from the scene? Did she call police at the scene? Did she knock on someone's door nearby to use their phone? Accept a ride from a passing stranger? Or did she walk to a "safe" place, and only then, after calling her boyfriend, or someone she trusted, start dealing with the accident?

armywife210
02-02-2006, 06:48 PM
Very helpful, thanks.

To summarize:

Maura had not unpacked yet, as she was too busy the last ten days

that would be my assumption.

She took just what she needed (running clothes, stuff for 3-4 days) and the jewelry because she was concerned about room security?

Yes, maybe she took her jewelry for security reasons, I would never leave anything of value in a dorm room. Maybe she took it because she always took her jewelry that her boyfriend gave her when she went away for any amount of time. It meant a lot to her. I do that very same thing when I go anywhere. My husband gave me a 7000 diamond tennis bracelet (I know how much only because we insured it) and I wear it every day, even when I wear jeans. ESPECIALLY when he is deployed or away.

She was only taking a break to blow off steam after the accident with Dad's car,
was not seriously upset about anything, pretty much ok & normal

She was upset about the accident, and she was stressed out from school and the busy holiday that had been far from relaxing. She needed time to herself. But that certainly didn't mean that she intended to permanently flee. She worked things out on her own, it was her nature. She was probably more stressed than she had ever been, again this isn't a reason to permanently flee but it is a good reason to just go away for a bit and be alone. She tried working her problems out in other ways... just doing things like drinking irresponsibly which led to driving... which only led to more stress. I am sure she tried to run it off quite a bit but it was just more than she was used to dealing with. Not to the point of fleeing. It takes a different kind of person to do that I think.


She was planning to call Lt R and her Dad that night as promised, had both her cellphone chargers as needed (my addition from another Peabody post)

Yep. But I think she wanted to hold off telling them where she was going UNTIL she got there so they wouldn't worry about her. She would have called them both that night.

She would have returned and resumed at UMA after 3-4 days after her little adventure break in the White Mtns, no one the wiser and did not worry about the "death in the family" excuse causing any problems

As far as her professors were concerned yes. I mean how would they find out there was no death in the family? I went to a major university and I didn't have to provide proof for any kind of excused absence as long as I informed them ahead of time. Especially when I excelled in my classes anyway. And how would her employers find out? I have never heard of an employer requesting proof of a death in the family. Her family and Billy would have known, she was going to talk to them later that evening.

Is this a fair summary?

I wonder:

Was she upset about something else on the Thursday night when she had to be escorted back to her dorm room from her security job?

Even the least emotional woman in the world has times when everything builds up. She was probably just thinking about all of the stressors in her life and just became emotional. If you were a very down to earth girl who didn't want people to think that you were an emotional time bomb, and you began to cry at work, then someone asked you what was wrong, would you tell them that you are an emotional basketcase at the moment?

Was there something else she was upset about which she did not tell Lt R during the 4.59am phone call to him on Sunday morning?

I don't believe so, just on emotional overload and she wasn't comfortable feeling as though she was feeling sorry for herself....which only makes this type of person feel more stressed.

Was she concealing how upset she was from her Dad that weekend?

While I don't think she was trying to CONCEAL anything, I also don't think she wanted him to worry about her.

Why didn't she return Lt R's calls or answer his messages on Sunday and Monday till the early afternoon when she was leaving UMA--she did get her cellphone back at 8.30pm Sunday from Sara Alfieri's room, yet she says in her email to Lt R around 1pm Monday "I didn't feel much like talking to anyone."

She was a private person as far as emotion and dealing with it on her own. She cared about people tremendously, especially Billy, and didn't want him to worry about how stressed she really was. I'm also leaning toward thinking that she didn't want to tell anyone she was leaving until that night when she got there... thus eleviation the worry factor.

She calls him after 2pm Monday as she is planning to leave, and doesn't mention her plans for departure--why not?

Same answer as above.

If she was the caller to Lt R's cellphone on Wed am as he believes, why didn't she leave any message or call back?

LT Rausch's mother stated that his cell wasn't working right. At times she would call him and it wouldn't even ring, but rather it would go through like she hadn't dialed correctly. I don't think she realized that it rang, or that his voicemail picked up. I believe that she was abducted by that time and her phone had been taken. However maybe in her pocket were her phone cards that she had gotten for Christmas. Perhaps when she left her room she had just shoved them in her pocket as a last minute thought. She could have had a very narrow window of oppertunity to use one and make that call... unfortunately Billy couldn't answer. I am sure that haunts him.

Obviously I believe there was more going on than her just taking a break for a few days, but I am asking these questions which I have puzzled over for many months as I think they hold the key to her disappearance--and the last one is really the most important as her being alive and calling Lt R on Wed am is the most baffling and crucial clue in figuring out what happened after she left the Woodsville NH accident scene.

See Sharon's notes on 2/11 in the Case Info section timeline dated 10/22 on the Maura site for the best account of the Wed am phone call and her disputing the statement by NH police that it came from the ARC, also her post just a few days ago on the Maura site clarifying that this phone call definitely did not come from the ARC office in Ohio as claimed by NH police.
Honestly I see this as far more likely than any scenerio involving her willfully disappearing. The reasons just weren't there for her to flee. She had decided to devote her life to helping people. To do that she had to deeply care about people.
She loved her family and her boyfriend. She wanted nothing more than to spend her life with him.
I am positive that she was affected emotionally by the accident. She loved her dad, and she felt that she let him down, I am sure. She was so close to her dad, and no matter what a "daddys girl" does wrong she always knows her daddy is still loving her and would be lost without her. I speak from experience.

KatherineQ
02-02-2006, 09:29 PM
I've been reading for hours, catching up on this case.

To me, the simplest explanation is she continued toward Woodstock on foot. She was headed east; her footprints led east; she knew the area to the east; and the police, who came from the west, didn't pass her.

Somewhere along the way, she either froze to death, or someone picked her up.

I mapped the accident site, plus the place she was supposedly seen an hour later. She should have reached the next town at midnight. The first things she would come to, according to Google Earth, would be the Carriage Motel and Truants' Taverne.

It would be good for someone to follow her footsteps on a similar night. Is it doable? At what point would you give up and start looking for a ride? An empty cabin? A shortcut through the woods?

One more clue would be how she dealt with her previous accident. Did she call AAA from the scene? Did she call police at the scene? Did she knock on someone's door nearby to use their phone? Accept a ride from a passing stranger? Or did she walk to a "safe" place, and only then, after calling her boyfriend, or someone she trusted, start dealing with the accident?


They found footprints? I thought they found nothing, not a trace, of what happened to her next except some scent dogs appeared to trace her a short distance to the next road.

If they found her footprints leading away from her accident, then surely the bus driver is "off the hook" - but so many have suspicions of him.

hydemi
02-02-2006, 11:04 PM
Yes, Sharon's notes in the Case Info timeline section on the Maura site for 2/11 quote officer Cecil Smith as saying that there was "one set of footprints" leading from her car up next to the snowbank.

Yes, AW has offered the same explanation the Rausches offer for the missed phone call--that she was being "held" and only had a limited opportunity to try to make a call. This is why Lt R describes the call as a "chilling voicemail" in his CNN interview with Soledad O'Brien on 2/17/04.

Sharon did say on the Maura site in reponse to me in the last few days that she believes one of the cards she gave Maura for prepaid calls back in November was an ATT card,and investigating the call done for the family did determine that the call was made using an ATT card--but no pin number or code to further identify & trace the call.

Yes busdriver Atwood and the construction worker have been touted as the likely suspects on the Maura site for months now--all I can say is that two years later no real evidence of abduction has been presented or found.

That doesn't mean there isn't any, which may be known to the "ongoing investigation" by NHSP but we simply don't know.

KatherineQ
02-03-2006, 09:56 AM
Thanks, Hydemi. I'm dense here - what's AW?

Why did Lt. Rausch erase the voice mail, do you know?

I also don't understand how there could be two different opinions as to where the phone call came from. It was Rausch's phone, surely he is entitled to the information on the whereabouts of the call placed to his phone. Why is there an argument over that, do you know? It seems quite black and white, it came from the Red Cross or it didn't, how hard can that be to nail down?

hydemi
02-03-2006, 11:14 AM
sorry, AW is ArmyWife who has been posting here.

The difficulty tracing the phone call as Sharon explains on the Maura site is that without the pin & card number these prepaid card calls cannot be traced.

I believe that Sharon has demonstrated that the call did not come from ARC in Ohio--she gave them info, not Lt R's cell number; he already had the leave, no further contact was needed; she called them back, they had no record on file of any other contact than 2/10; why would they use a prepaid card and why would ARC be sobbing-breathing-crying into the phone?

Why NHSP would make such an error? Why did they make all the other errors in this case?

As to the Rausches believing from the start that the call was from Maura, all one can say is they have never wavered.

Sharon had given prepaid cards to Maura a month or two earlier to help save on bills (remember Maura and Lt R shared a cellphone account together), and
the call was determined by private investigation to be from an ATT card. She says in a post this week that she thinks one of the cards given to Maura was an ATT card.

I believe he had deleted the message which had to be refreshed every two weeks on his phone sometime within the first two months or so, as he said according to Sharon that he could not stand listening to it and found it too upsetting and "chilling" (his word).

KatherineQ
02-03-2006, 11:24 AM
Thanks, Hydemi.

I read through some of that site case information this morning, and found it intruiging that with Rausch's phone, often you couldn't tell that the message recorder was on. So if she were trying to call him, and felt like the call didn't get through, she could be sitting there waiting for it to connect and sniffing and crying waiting to leave a message.

Which makes 1000 times more sense, to me, than thinking she intended to leave a crying message with no words. But to not know she's being taped and is just waiting to connect, I get that completely. It's a surprise to me, though, that Rausch didn't have the message professionally copied on to some other source, because that's all the evidence they had of what happened to her. That's it. To erase that message, when a grown man would know it could probably be enhanced to provide clues and compared to other recordings of her voice, and perhaps background sounds could be enhanced - frankly this is a stumper why he erased it.


EDITED TO ADD: I keep thinking about the tracing of this call to the red cross. That would have been a landline - a much easier call to confirm. Does LE have both the trace from Rausch's cell phone, and do they claim they have corresponding phone records from the Red Cross land line that confirm that a call was made at that minute to his cell phone? Does anyone know? This is bugging me because this one piece of information seems like it wouldn't be that hard to confirm for sure, yes or no, did it come from the Red Cross.

T-Rex
02-03-2006, 02:02 PM
One interesting post from the MM web site:

"The elevation at the accident scene is 883 ft. above sea level. About 6 winding miles later at the intersection of Rte. 118 the elevation is 1141 ft. 4.5 miles beyond this intersection is the height of land beneath Mt. Moosilauke, with an elevation of 1,875 ft. The run from there to Woodstock brings you to an elevation of 732 ft."

Maura wouldn't have passed many roads after leaving the accident scene. By Rte. 118, she would have been going uphill for a little while, and would see that she was about to have to really go uphill. In my opinion, this is where she would start having second thoughts about walking. There are three roads she could have turned off on there, Kingman Ridge Dr., Russell Farm Rd., and Mountainside Rd. I think those would be really good places to look.

T-Rex
02-03-2006, 02:24 PM
Here's a map that shows topography. (Ignore the red.)
The accident would have been on Route 112, a little after where it says "Swiftwater" on the map.
http://www.portlandvelo.com/Moosilauke_tour.jpg

Peabody
02-04-2006, 01:36 AM
Here's a map that shows topography. (Ignore the red.)
The accident would have been on Route 112, a little after where it says "Swiftwater" on the map.
http://www.portlandvelo.com/Moosilauke_tour.jpg

T-Rex - thanks for the map

As you look at the map, Maura's accident occured approximately 3/4 of an inch south of Swiftwater on the road marked in gray (rt 112) at the south point of the "V". This is a very sharp, hairpin turn

Peabody
02-04-2006, 01:50 AM
Thanks, Hydemi.

I read through some of that site case information this morning, and found it intruiging that with Rausch's phone, often you couldn't tell that the message recorder was on. So if she were trying to call him, and felt like the call didn't get through, she could be sitting there waiting for it to connect and sniffing and crying waiting to leave a message.

Which makes 1000 times more sense, to me, than thinking she intended to leave a crying message with no words. But to not know she's being taped and is just waiting to connect, I get that completely. It's a surprise to me, though, that Rausch didn't have the message professionally copied on to some other source, because that's all the evidence they had of what happened to her. That's it. To erase that message, when a grown man would know it could probably be enhanced to provide clues and compared to other recordings of her voice, and perhaps background sounds could be enhanced - frankly this is a stumper why he erased it.


EDITED TO ADD: I keep thinking about the tracing of this call to the red cross. That would have been a landline - a much easier call to confirm. Does LE have both the trace from Rausch's cell phone, and do they claim they have corresponding phone records from the Red Cross land line that confirm that a call was made at that minute to his cell phone? Does anyone know? This is bugging me because this one piece of information seems like it wouldn't be that hard to confirm for sure, yes or no, did it come from the Red Cross.

The only thing NH LE claimed was that they traced the prepaid calling card call FROM Rausch's cell phone to a prepaid calling card owned by the Red Cross.

Of course, the Rausches and Murrays later learned that prepaid calling card calls cannot be traced even by LE unless one has the card number and the pin

I emphasize that Sharon told me that NH SP traced the mysterious prepaid calling card call while she, her husband and now Cpt Rausch sat in a room with the NH SP in the Haverhill Police Station; that she immediately disputed that the call was from the ARC because they would not have had her son's phone number (because she was the only one that had spoken with ARC and she knew that she had not given them his cell and cell phones do not have directory assistance; also the ARC had her cell and had not called her; her thinking was IF there was any reason they needed to correspond, they would have contacted her).

When the Rausches insisted the call was not ARC, then they were all told that the police believed that Maura was upset with her family and that she was already in Kenton OH on her way to the Rausch residence (again the Rausches disputed this because Kenton is Northwest of them and they asked if they perhaps meant Canton and the officer became hostile and said there was no Canton OH - fyi Canton is Northeast of the Rausches and would have made some sense)

Hope this provides you with some clarification.

KatherineQ
02-04-2006, 11:42 AM
Thank you Peabody, it does clear it up a little. So often in cases like this there are these roadblocks - either the phone company can verify the type of card used, or they can't, and why there is any dispute about this is beyond me.

That phone call is such a huge clue, I'm still ruminating on it.

Another frustrating part for her family is it appears pretty clear LE has turned up information among her friends that she either intended to escape her family, or she intended to commit suicide, which may be misinformation. It seems so cruel that the Murrays aren't allowed access to all the information.

Thanks again for your clarification.

Peabody
02-04-2006, 12:55 PM
Thank you Peabody, it does clear it up a little. So often in cases like this there are these roadblocks - either the phone company can verify the type of card used, or they can't, and why there is any dispute about this is beyond me.

That phone call is such a huge clue, I'm still ruminating on it.

Another frustrating part for her family is it appears pretty clear LE has turned up information among her friends that she either intended to escape her family, or she intended to commit suicide, which may be misinformation. It seems so cruel that the Murrays aren't allowed access to all the information.

Thanks again for your clarification.


Fred and investigators have spoken with all of Maura's known friends, co-workers, acquaintances. **ALL** of them say that Maura had her nose to the grindstone for work and school and was very much enjoying looking forward to spending her life with Cpt Rausch.


Therefore, unless someone is being "two-faced", **ALL** of her friends are as confused as her family, which leads everyone to believe that some harm has befallen Maura.....they have made no suggestions or implications of her being suicidal or of possible reasons to runaway.


As to the earlier discussion regarding Maura's not wanting to be an army wife: it only makes sense that she would just break up with her army boyfriend/fiance......she would have no need to start a new life. As it stands now, Maura and Cpt Rausch would have been married last fall and he would only have 2 years left in the service if he would choose to pursue civilian life........not even long enough for it to affect their having children and them moving to different schools. I am sure if army life was a roadblock for her, he would not stay in the army.

KatherineQ
02-04-2006, 01:50 PM
Her friends would have a much clearer perspective on her than strangers like me, and as Marc Klaas said, (paraphrasing) taking a snapshot of a family's life at any given time can be a confusing picture. Something like that.

To a stranger like me on the internet just reading the hard facts of the case, she seemed to be on a complete downward spiral. She had wrecked a couple cars, was apparently drinking heavily, secretly left school and packed up her belongings and lied to her professors about where she was going. Withdrew money out of the bank, bought a LOT of alcohol for one person to drink, and was drinking fairly heavily while trying to drive away in the dark.

That behavior, of drinking WHILE driving in the dark is almost suicidal, and could be considered pre-suicidal, it think. It's not like someone who drinks in a bar and then needs to get home so he drives drunk. Drinking on a long car trip in the dark on curvy snowy roads is so dangerous that it is alarming.

Prayers for her, and for her family, this is so confusing that it appears the cops have decided something suspicious is going on besides the obvious of stranger abduction.

nnglas
02-04-2006, 08:55 PM
The different types of alcohol are strange. It just makes me think she was with someone or going to meet someone. And if she was with someone, then they could have been drinking the alcohol while she was driving. It could also explain why she went out of town in that car when it wasn't in the best of shape. She would feel safe if someone was with her. Have they established that some of the alchohol was missing, as if someone was drinking it. Oh yeah, that's right, they haven't established anything to the family.:(

KatherineQ
02-04-2006, 10:09 PM
The different types of alcohol are strange. It just makes me think she was with someone or going to meet someone. And if she was with someone, then they could have been drinking the alcohol while she was driving. It could also explain why she went out of town in that car when it wasn't in the best of shape. She would feel safe if someone was with her. Have they established that some of the alchohol was missing, as if someone was drinking it. Oh yeah, that's right, they haven't established anything to the family.:(

nnglas - I thought the family had all the information available about how much alcohol she bought, and what types, and how much was consumed that afternoon and how much was spilled, and how much was taken from the car by her when she wrecked and left on foot.

KatherineQ
02-04-2006, 10:20 PM
I just went back and read some of the site again, and this stuck out:

Caledonian 7/10/04 - Scarinza also said when Murray left the Amherst campus, she had with her a box of wine, and bottles of vodka, Kahluha and Bailey's Irish Cream.

The box of wine, of which most had been spilled, was found in the car. But some of the other bottles were not found.


Later, there are comments where police call her endangered and possibly suicidal.

I'm thinking this one backwards and forwards. If you were in a wreck, and had been drinking that day, and set out on foot in the dark freezing night, why would you take several bottles of alcohol that you had to carry with you?

I can see why it would be under consideration that she intended to commit suicide. The more and more I read of this story, her behavior seems suicidal. Why was it important to her to take several bottles of alcohol with her to carry on her back?

armywife210
02-05-2006, 04:38 AM
As to the earlier discussion regarding Maura's not wanting to be an army wife: it only makes sense that she would just break up with her army boyfriend/fiance......she would have no need to start a new life. As it stands now, Maura and Cpt Rausch would have been married last fall and he would only have 2 years left in the service if he would choose to pursue civilian life........not even long enough for it to affect their having children and them moving to different schools. I am sure if army life was a roadblock for her, he would not stay in the army.I haven't found where this was said and by whom so I am just quoting peabody, perhaps I wasn't reading close enough. I have a really REALLY hard time with the scenerio about her not wanting to be an army wife....
First of all, she knew what Army life was about. They do learn about that stuff at West Point. Second of all, she began dating Billy at West Point. She allowed herself to become serious with him. Someone who doesn't want to be an Army Wife does not put herself in that situation. Besides, she was a very independent person. If a woman can be independent, Army life can be really fun. Especially when you are a "find the positive" type of person.

nnglas
02-05-2006, 04:47 AM
I just went back and read some of the site again, and this stuck out:

Caledonian 7/10/04 - Scarinza also said when Murray left the Amherst campus, she had with her a box of wine, and bottles of vodka, Kahluha and Bailey's Irish Cream.

The box of wine, of which most had been spilled, was found in the car. But some of the other bottles were not found.


Later, there are comments where police call her endangered and possibly suicidal.

I'm thinking this one backwards and forwards. If you were in a wreck, and had been drinking that day, and set out on foot in the dark freezing night, why would you take several bottles of alcohol that you had to carry with you?

I can see why it would be under consideration that she intended to commit suicide. The more and more I read of this story, her behavior seems suicidal. Why was it important to her to take several bottles of alcohol with her to carry on her back?

You are right KatherineQ. I read about the spilled wine, I just didn't realize that apparently she other bottles that were missing as if she took them with her. If this is true, it does seem kind of odd that she would take them with her. Did they find her cell phone in the car?

armywife210
02-05-2006, 05:39 AM
The different types of alcohol are strange. It just makes me think she was with someone or going to meet someone. And if she was with someone, then they could have been drinking the alcohol while she was driving. It could also explain why she went out of town in that car when it wasn't in the best of shape. She would feel safe if someone was with her. Have they established that some of the alchohol was missing, as if someone was drinking it. Oh yeah, that's right, they haven't established anything to the family.:(sounds to me like she wanted to make some good mudslides. As for the Baileys irish cream, I have been told that she liked it in her coffee.

hydemi
02-05-2006, 11:11 AM
I think ArmyWife is right about the mudslides, a favorite drink of Maura's.

The better question about alcohol is evidence of it at the crash scene.

The bottles of Bailey's, Kahlua, & vodka were gone.

The box of red wine had cracked and spilled evidently during the accident.

There was a beer bottle inside the car (see Fred Murray's first letter to NH Gov. Benson in May 04).

Whether she had been drinking or not, she was probably concerned about alcohol in the car knowing that police were going to arrive soon, as Atwood the schoolbus driver had just told her he was going to call police despite her saying she had called AAA and asking him not to call police, which he said he was going to do anyway.

The previous day in Amherst Ma, she had been in her Dad's car also in an accident around 3.30am near Hadley Ma, after a night of drinking with friends who had urged her not to be driving. She avoided any charges in that incident evidently because the road was icy and slippery, and the policeman gave her a break (no testing?), and presumably there was no evidence of alcohol in her Dad's car as there was in the Saturn on Monday night.

I think she was worried about the insurance claim for her Dad's car already, which was in the Saturn with her, as she had promised her Dad to call him night and to get it filled out. Now here she is in another accident in the Saturn with at least some indisputable evidence of alcohol.

KatherineQ
02-05-2006, 11:21 AM
Hydemi, you write this as if you don't think Atwood should have called the police.

It sounds like he was trying to get her help, and perhaps he knew there isn't cell phone service out there, and knew she was lying about calling AAA. Not wanting her to freeze to death or meet up with some other problem, he called the police. It seems.

Is it possible the reason the police didn't see her when they came is she was hiding from them?

edited to add: I had read somewhere that the box of wine was open, and also spilled.

Have you ever used a box of wine? You have to pull and twist the tap to open it, and once you've done that if the box falls or something falls against it, it can cause it to squirt out. I didn't think her car was in bad enough shape to actually puncture that bag and cause the wine to come out of the box if it wasn't already opened - is that documented - that the box of wine had in fact not been opened already when the crash occurred? It seems quite possible that the crash could crush the box - but to split that bag?

hydemi
02-05-2006, 06:22 PM
While Atwood has been criticized on this site and on the Maura site, I am not suggesting that he should not have called police. On the contrary!

I only mean to suggest that his mention of police worried Maura, it would seem to me because like most youthful drivers she was most probably extremely aware of the risks of alcohol being found in her car--opened or unopened, whether or not she had been drinking.

We do not know what happened to the "Mudslide" bottles but it seems likely to me that she took them to dispose of them to get rid of some of the alcohol she had with her in the car.

I actually think her car slid off the road because of the thawing re-freezing that was probably going on with the temps in the low 30's, not because she was drinking or speeding or driving badly.

The big question is why she did not just sit and wait for the police, who in turn would have called a tow truck etc.

Thus Atwood's mention of the police, I mean to suggest, created a bit of panic on her part--she had avoided being charged the night before, would she be as lucky this time?

armywife210
02-06-2006, 03:27 AM
I think ArmyWife is right about the mudslides, a favorite drink of Maura's.

The better question about alcohol is evidence of it at the crash scene.

The bottles of Bailey's, Kahlua, & vodka were gone.

The box of red wine had cracked and spilled evidently during the accident.

There was a beer bottle inside the car (see Fred Murray's first letter to NH Gov. Benson in May 04).

Whether she had been drinking or not, she was probably concerned about alcohol in the car knowing that police were going to arrive soon, as Atwood the schoolbus driver had just told her he was going to call police despite her saying she had called AAA and asking him not to call police, which he said he was going to do anyway.

The previous day in Amherst Ma, she had been in her Dad's car also in an accident around 3.30am near Hadley Ma, after a night of drinking with friends who had urged her not to be driving. She avoided any charges in that incident evidently because the road was icy and slippery, and the policeman gave her a break (no testing?), and presumably there was no evidence of alcohol in her Dad's car as there was in the Saturn on Monday night.

I think she was worried about the insurance claim for her Dad's car already, which was in the Saturn with her, as she had promised her Dad to call him night and to get it filled out. Now here she is in another accident in the Saturn with at least some indisputable evidence of alcohol.As I find out more about this case, I am sort of stepping back to reflect on past experiences with things, and things that I may do in her situation. I realize that my theories have changed a bit as I find out more information.
I have a really likely theory about the alcohol. I posted it on mauramurray.com earlier tonight but I will go at it again. First of all have you ever attempted to drink from a box of wine? Unless she had a nice little wine glass with her (not a normal thing to carry in your emergency pack) I cannot see her opting to open a wine box in a vehicle, not to mention while trying to navigate the vehicle... with any intent whatsoever of drinking from it. Have you ever tried to open one of those suckers? In my experience those things can very difficult. However, I did discover while attempting to open the derned thing that if it was to drop out of ones hands, it is more than happy to open as it hits the floor or any other solid object. So that leaves me with two slightly different scenerios, but not enough to make a difference really. She crashes into a snow bank. I dont think she was going fast or driving irresponsibly, I do think that it was icey. Did the wine bottle break during the impact? Or did she decide quickly to put all of the CLOSED containers (including the wine) of alcohol into her backpack to move to the trunk. Not to hide it, but even though its legal to have closed containers in your car it might look a bit better for her if they were in her trunk. THEN while she was tossing the bottles in she dropped the box inside or out of the car and it broke? Does it matter which? Not really, either way I can see it happening. So she locks the door to her car, walks back to put the rest in her trunk with the plan to then walk back to the busdrivers house when she is taken. OR perhaps she HAD it in her backpack from when she purchased it (she wouldnt have put the wine in because a box of wine could break open in there) and she decided to take the busdriver up on his offer of help. However, her bottles never made it to the trunk because she didn't get that far. OR she wasnt trying to put anything in her trunk, the wine box had broken on impact, and she had just decided to walk back to the busdrivers house because it was AFTER she had last talked to him that she tried to call AAA and discovered no signal. She grabbed her backpack because her wallet was in it and the police, upon arrival, would immediately ask for her license. She locked the car because her jewelry was in there.

hydemi
02-06-2006, 09:45 AM
I would go for your last scenario after your last OR.

She could have continued trying to get a cell signal as she walked toward Atwood's about 80-100 yards ahead, she might have noticed the road marker near Atwood's driveway across from Bradley Hill Rd which shows distances as 7 miles back west to Wells River VT and as 16-17 miles east to North Woodstock and Lincoln, she might have then spooked and taken off if Atwood had been coming out his front door to his porch or if she had heard/seen the police cruiser driven by Cecil Smith approaching behind her, and lastly she might have jumped into a car going east or west (probably more vehicles going west from what I can surmise from the mentions of cars on the road by Atwood & Smith).

Another possibility is that she found someplace to hide at that general area by Atwood's residence where the dog (it was only a single search dog on 2/11) lost the scent taken from her new gloves--from which she could have waited and watched a while to see what Atwood & Smith were doing.

The puzzle about her being picked up at the scene is that most of the drivers were locals heading home at that time of night, people living nearby like the contractor who belatedly said he saw her perhaps 30-40 minutes later.

I just am not into believing that one of these locals was an opportunistic killer, so if one of them picked her I think we would know about it.

And lastly there are the helper/accomplice theories which explain her quick getaway but not her being seen (if she was) by the contractor.

armywife210
02-06-2006, 02:08 PM
Why hide from the police though? I mean truly, in your theory is the she totally wasted? I cannot see any intelligent person hiding from the police over this. If she was drinking or if she wasnt... There is red wine spilled in the car, sooner or later they would find out that she was driving it. It makes no sense to me that someone was following her aiding in her getaway. The reason is because of the old K.I.S.S. ... There is NOTHING in her past to lead one to believe that she would run away from her old life. To the contrary. There is nothing in her past to lead one to believe that she would hide from LE.
Yes, taking off like she did seems to be out of character, but it you really look at it, is it? She was very independent. She liked to work out her stressors on her own. She had never done this before, true. But I cant see that it is out of her character to just get away for a few days.
Again, she had recently gotten triple A, a false sense of security perhaps, so she wasnt worried about her car anymore.

docwho3
02-06-2006, 02:14 PM
Just 2 examples on my recently started list of people who leave even when it seems unusual for them to do so:
***************************
Olga Khaleel

. . .Olga Khaleel was last seen Jan. 10 after dropping off her two children at a relative's home.
Davie police said Monday that a man visiting South Florida for a family reunion saw the missing persons flyer at local store and recognized Khaleel. He then notified police.
Officers interviewed Khaleel, who said she left her home of her own accord and was never held against her will. She told police that she had personal problems and needed to get away and did not want to be found.
Police said they are glad that Khaleel is OK, but frustrated that they spent so much time trying to find her.
"What concerns us is that we spent hundreds of man hours and we spent weeks looking for her," Lt. Bill Bamford said. "Not that we would have spared any cost looking for Mrs. Khaleel, but we took investigators off other cases. We had at least five police agencies involved. ... A lot of man hours went into finding her. We wish she would have just contacted someone here locally." . . .http://www.nbc6.net/news/6781167/detail.html

. . ."She said she was at the bank, when she gets out from making the deposit, she will return the call. That is the last we heard from her," Andre Khaleel said.. . .
. . .Andre Khaleel, who has been married to Olga for 12 years and known her for 14, said that in the past, his wife has always been in the right place at the right time.
"I'm just so distraught at this moment. I just don't have words to describe to you what I'm going through at this time," Andre Khaleel said. "The kids are asking questions at this point. They're tearing up. They know something is wrong. Obviously, they've never gone four hours without their mother. Today's the eighth day.". . .http://www.nbc6.net/news/6191705/detail.html
***************************
Patricia Lea Whaley

. . . An Angels Camp mother of three who vanished nearly 16 years ago has been found alive and living a new life in Colorado, an investigator said yesterday.
Patricia Lea Whaley disappeared April 20, 1990, after telling her family she was headed to a doctor's appointment in Lodi, causing family and law enforcement in Angels Camp to speculate whether Whaley had been kidnapped or killed.
Whaley's van was found in a Lodi parking lot, along with her purse and identification. But no trace of where Whaley had gone was discovered until last Thursday when Calaveras County Senior District Attorney's Investigator John Crawford plugged Whaley's name and Social Security number into the department's new Accurint computer search program . . .
. . . The investigator contacted law enforcement in Colorado, who assisted in locating Whaley.
Crawford said the find was bittersweet.
Whaley, he said, does not want to see or be contacted by her family . . . http://www.uniondemocrat.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=19488
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpo...074&postcount=1
Thread located at:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35484
****************************

Peabody
02-06-2006, 02:31 PM
Just 2 examples on my recently started list of people who leave even when it seems unusual for them to do so:
***************************
Olga Khaleel
http://www.nbc6.net/news/6781167/detail.html
http://www.nbc6.net/news/6191705/detail.html
***************************
Patricia Lea Whaley
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=19488
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpo...074&postcount=1
Thread located at:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35484
****************************DocWho,

I don't mean to be "in your face", but truly, listing those people who have run away is not any supporting evidence in Maura's case any more than listing those who have vanished without a trace to only be found dead years later supports that she has been harmed.

I specifically mention this because, although I have not researched the statistics, sadly the "daily news" seems to support that the vast majority of missing females are found murdered, not living a new life.

hydemi
02-06-2006, 05:17 PM
One or the other happened.

At the point she left the scene on her own, she was no longer just getting away for a few days. We just don't know why she did that if that's what occurred.

Nothing about Maura has ever seemed "totally wasted" to me, everything I have learned about her suggests a deliberate and purposeful highly motivated individual who did not always choose to share what she was thinking or what she was intending even with those closest to her.

If she was somehow grabbed in those ten minutes, probably by a local even a neighbor as the posters have inveighed, this was a criminal case from the get-go as argued by family members although in truth they did not urge a criminal investigation until about ten days had passed from what I can tell in the early media reports.

I have seen nothing at all to support the various helper/accomplice theories.

So I have pursued the question of why she would have left the scene on her own as that makes the most sense to me--was she afraid of Atwood? did she want to avoid police because of the alcohol evidence or some other reason? was she determined already just to keep going and not stop and not let the car accident prevent her from leaving?

The early suggestion from Lt Rausch that her reason or reasons for leaving Amherst and what happened to her after the second accident in Swiftwater may be two different unrelated things seems a good insight to me. What started out as a three-four day sabbatical, perhaps, turned into something other than a little holiday, we just don't know which of the the two leading theories (abduction or runaway) is the truth.

docwho3
02-06-2006, 05:34 PM
DocWho,

I don't mean to be "in your face", but truly, listing those people who have run away is not any supporting evidence in Maura's case any more than listing those who have vanished without a trace to only be found dead years later supports that she has been harmed.

I specifically mention this because, although I have not researched the statistics, sadly the "daily news" seems to support that the vast majority of missing females are found murdered, not living a new life.Well, as you know, I have previously posted links an to L.E. site that says the majority of those missing persons are actually not victems of foul play and that most are found so the fact that you interpret the "daily news" items that you read to be of more statistical import is more in the realm of opinion than fact.

My posting those few posts about people who go willfully missing is relevant in that it goes to the point that people keep making again and again that Maura would not just leave. And I haven't pointed this out nearly as many times as that opposite view has been said. No offense but I feel I have the right to point out, and provide examples to support the fact, that people can & do willlfully leave even when you would think it not a likely thing for that person to do. We have all read many statements, both recently and ealier in the case posts, saying that in some posters opinions Maura had no reason to leave and/or would never do such a thing. My providing responses that point out that people do often leave without having what you or I might think of as a valid reason to do so or when it looks like it would be totally out of character for the missing person seems to me to be a legitimate point that goes to the heart of this case particularly due to the circumstances immediately prior to her leaving.

Quite frankly it seems to be that some people feel that it is somehow dirtying Maura's name to post the possibility of her having left on her own and that sort of reaction, if allowed to take over case discussion and shut down posts contrary to that opinion, simply blinds the investigation to one possibiility of finding the truth.

It harms nothing to see all the possibilities.

WholeLottaRosie
02-07-2006, 03:49 AM
Does anyone know if Maura had with her her birth certificate and social security card? Her old tax forms ? Or did she leave these behind? Has LE checked her credit report? I assume only they could, I don't think a family member could get one, although maybe they did?

Has anyone checked vital records where Maura was born to see if she got a new copy of her birth certificate? I don't know if they keep records of requests, but, they might. I read somewhere, can't recall where, that someone checked her Soc Sec record and her number has not been used. I again assume LE did that? Does anyone know if someone does succeed in changing their SSN - difficult but not impossible - what record is on the old one? Just shows no activity at all, or would SSA tell someone that the account is closed out?

Thanks.

docwho3
02-07-2006, 06:13 AM
About getting new SS #'s in general: I did a quick simple web search and found at least one book that claims to list

. . .Chapter 4 - How To Get a New Social Security Number
Instructions on how to get a new, useable real social security number.
Two effective ways to get a new SSN. . .Also :

. . .How to Get a New Social Security Number (Separate Website)
If you are a victim of domestic violence and need to relocate and establish a new identity, it may be helpful to get a new Social Security number. Social Security does not routinely assign new numbers, but will do so when evidence shows you are being harassed or abused or your life is endangered.
By: Social Security Online. . .http://www.coloradolegalservices.org/CO/StateChannelResults.cfm/County/%20/City/%20/demoMode/%3D%201/Language/1/State/CO/TextOnly/N/ZipCode/%20/LoggedIn/0/sTopicImage/familyJuvenile.gif/iTopicID/725/faction/viewAll/bAllState/0/ichannelid/108


. . . Although Social Security does not routinely assign new numbers, we will do so when evidence shows you are being harassed or abused or your life is endangered.
Applying for a new number is a big decision. It may impact your ability to interact with federal and state agencies, employers and others. This is because your financial, medical, employment and other records will be under your former Social Security number and name (if you change your name). If you expect to change your name, we recommend you do so before applying for a new number. . . .http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10093.html

My question then becomes:"How do we know what Maura's SS# really is now especially if she also changed names?" So far I have only considered the legal ways to switch names and numbers but what about identity theft?

On the first try I found 3 pages of search results about getting a new SS#.

docwho3
02-07-2006, 06:19 AM
Does anyone know if Maura had with her her birth certificate and social security card? Her old tax forms ? Or did she leave these behind? Has LE checked her credit report? I assume only they could, I don't think a family member could get one, although maybe they did?

Has anyone checked vital records where Maura was born to see if she got a new copy of her birth certificate? I don't know if they keep records of requests, but, they might. I read somewhere, can't recall where, that someone checked her Soc Sec record and her number has not been used. I again assume LE did that? Does anyone know if someone does succeed in changing their SSN - difficult but not impossible - what record is on the old one? Just shows no activity at all, or would SSA tell someone that the account is closed out?

Thanks. Some of the same questions as yours were answered at the forum at http://mauramurray.com/phpBB2/

When you get there click the link to "Discuss Maura's Case" and once there, look at the last 8 pages or so.

Mygirlsadie
02-07-2006, 06:37 AM
armywife- I don't know if anyone answered you yet but if you log onto AKO under the white pages you can look up Bill Rausch and it will tell you exactly where he is and what unit he is with etc..




I have numerous questions about this case, and I am wondering if perhaps the answers are out there and I just haven't located them. Some of them may not seem that important to you, but they may be. Perhaps someone can help me answer them.

What is with the letter that is said to have been left in her room? The one ?TO? or
?FROM? her Bill Rausch? I have found conflicting accounts of this. It's a pretty black and white question, doesn't seem like there should be conflicting accounts about it. If there was a letter from him, what did it say? I read somewhere that all letters found in her room to and from Bill were just of the mushy variety.

What was her reason for transferring from West Point and how long before her disappearance did she do that? West Point is a very elite school, one that is outstanding to have graduated from. GO ARMY BEAT NAVY!

Where is Bill Rausch now? Still at FT Sill Oklahoma or has he been stationed elsewhere? Is he seeing anyone else? This may seem like a nosey he said she said sort of question, but I think it may be important to know if he has moved on.

Those are my starting blocks.

I don't think that Maura disappeared on her own accord. There is something very wrong here, and it has nothing to do with her family.
I know she lied about why she took off for a week, but to think that her family would have automatically found out about that is crazy. She had her cell phone with her so she was reachable by her family. She was 22, it's not like she needed a note from her dad to miss class. Perhaps she just needed time away alone to think. It seems to me that she was losing her way. I think she was confused about what she wanted out of life, and she was scared of that. So why did she pack up her room? Maybe she wasn't sure what was going to happen when she got back. Maybe she didn't think that she would opt to stay at UMass. and just wanted to have everything ready for when she got back. Honestly it sounds like she was "stir crazy" just before she left because she knew she had to get away and think FOR A WEEK, and just wanted to have everything set for whatever her week of decisions led her to choose to do. In the end, I don't think she had that choice.

These are some of my rantings, I am sure I will have more.
Pray for Maura

CyberLaw
02-07-2006, 12:19 PM
Peabody: Please cite your source for the following information:

I specifically mention this because, although I have not researched the statistics, sadly the "daily news" seems to support that the vast majority of missing females are found murdered, not living a new life.

I guess the "daily" news prints or reports stories that will sell papers or have someone "tune" into their newsbroadcast. Saying that a missing person(who never made the news) has been found alive and well after 16 years is just not going to sell papers or is newsworthy. By the way: You are subject to whatever the "daily news" decides to play that day, your whole perspective is formed by the "daily news".

The researched stats reach a far different conclusion about the "real" story about "missing persons". These stats are based on facts and stats, not what some editor or producer decides to run that day to sell more papers or increase rating for the news cast.

May I bring your attention to the "How to disappear in America" site.

One of the "tips" they offer is never, ever use any ATM, Credit Cards or any other cards with a 'mag" strip as it can be traced. Take out most if not all of your money from your bank account and never access it again.

How about this: Maura ran away from her unhappy life and started a new life where she makes decision for herself, she is under no "pressure" to continue school or a relationship. She is a free person, not constrained by family "obligations". She left everyone behind. She was looking out for her own happiness both in the present and future. She was putting herself first, she was putting what she wanted first and foremost over what others wanted for her. She is free to make her own choices in every aspect of her life.

Have you ever heard an adult child say to their parent: Don't treat me like a child, don't make decisions for me, don't tell me what to do. I am 21 and I am an adult. I can run my own life and do what I want with my own life. I am an adult.

But the reply from the parents: "Well I am your parent, older and wiser and you are still my child. So of course it is up to me to make decisions for you that I feel are right for you, all I want is the best for you.

So that "young man" that you have choosen to "date" is just not right for you. I know that you say you love him with all your heart, but after all I am the parents and I just know what is the best for you. Therefore tell him to hit the road.

Well I am not going to do that because I really love him and I am not going to be "dictated" to. I am an adult, I know what is best for me.

What you are not doing what I say: I am THE PARENT, how dare you go against my wishes, how dare you feel that you can make decisions for yourself, how dare you think that you know "better" then me. You are a mere child. Power and control at the best here, domination, lack of respect, lack of seeing your child as an adult.

Also the parent "fully" expect you to abide by their "wishes" and if you don't, they will make you life a "living" hell.

Maura is now the "master of her own destiny", she is an adult, she can make her own choices, free from any outside influence. She can do what ever she wants as she is 21 and an adult.

Well now no one has power and control over Maura. People don't seem to understand one thing: Behavior follows intent. Words are just words.

What a person says and what they display in their behavior are two different things.

So when I read all of the "hearsay" that is attributed to Maura. I look at her actions instead, because the actions are much, much more telling. Actions don't lie, words do.

Like telling her former B.F. that everything is just fine, all the while her actions are that she is packing up her room to leave for good.

The words were meant to "not tip" off anyone to her intent and to placate and not arouse suspicion. Even if the words are written, you still look at behavior.

But her behavior was that she was planning to leave......and not tell anyone. That again is one of the tips in "How to disappear in America" gives.

Actually Maura's "disappearance" follows quite a few of these tips given on this site.

If someone has no intention of drinking booze while they are driving, they lock the booze up in their trunk. They don't keep it beside them in the front seat. The reason for that is that it is "too tempting" to reach over and open it up as it is "readily" available.

I saw a wine box one time. All it took to open it up was(it was a long time ago)either by cutting the top(like a juice box) or seperating the top to allow a type of triangle to pour(like a milk carton)either way, wine boxes just "dont open up themselves and spill on the front seat if it was not opened up first. They are designed this way.........

Also if ones person is "challenged" in opening up a "wine box" that does not mean that everyone is. Trust me if that was the case, then the wine box makers would change the design to make it easier. Because who would buy a wine box by a specific company if is is "impossible" to open up. Consumers would never by that wine box more then once and the company would soon be out of business.

If you have been drinking, you have booze in the front seat of your car, several bottles, you are involved in a single car accident along a road, you "display" signs of having consumed booze and you know the cops are on the way. Anyone who wants to avoid "scrunity" and some "pretty hard questions", not to mention a "breathalyzer" by LE is going to flee to avoid the consequences of their actions.

Now the one thing that LE would look for: They would give you a breathalyzer test and record the reading. A short time(I think an hour or two) they would give you another breathalyzer. If the reading goes up on the second test, you were drinking while you were driving. If the reading goes down, then you were drinking before you started driving.

So when you flee from an "accident" it is called "saving your own skin" or in other words, avoiding responsibility for your actions with the "resulting criminal consequences".

I mean it is a no brainer that people flee accident where booze is involved. Happens everyday.......

Maura did not have a high tolerance to booze as she was not a long term experienced drinker. She had bought the type of booze that was very easy going down. Sweet booze.........she had a low level of tolerance so she could easily get drunk on much less booze then someone who drank everyday.

There was a "significant" amount of time between her buying booze and the "accident" especially given the fact that all of the booze was in the front seat.

I have seen someone drink 5 glasses of wine and "seem" fine and I have seen a person drink one glass of wine and "appear drunk".

The differences is: The former drinks five glasses of wine everyday, while the latter drinks a glass of wine a week.

I guess no one knows if the other bottles of booze that Maura bought had been opened and consumed while she was on the road. She took those bottles with her. At least with bottles of sweet booze and Vodka, they can be closed for transportation in a knapsack.

Again, I have no doubt that Maura ran away and has no intention of contacting people from her "old life". Why bother, that would be just a reminder of how unhappy she was with her old life and the people that were in it. Out with the old, in with the new.

KatherineQ
02-07-2006, 12:57 PM
Cyberlaw - I think you're half right. I think that was her intent, to leave and never return.

But there's the other half - then what happened? Then what happened to her, and is there a murderer out there who is waiting to grab someone else and make them a victim?

I have spent so much time thinking and thinking of her case, and trying to put myself in her shoes. Here's what I come up with.

Everyone says she's strong, responsible, capable, not flighty, dependable, etc. (I know whenever someone goes missing there's always someone who pops up and declares it's not in their character to do that, and they're totally wrong, it IS in their character and they do weird stuff all the time, but in Maura's case, I believe her reputation was really sound.)

She is extremely close to her father, who holds an image of her that's she's tough and rugged and dependable. She seems to really like that opinion of herself and worked fairly hard to keep that reputation in his eyes. Children in a family dymanic often subvert their true personalities to fit a parent's image when that image is positively rewarded.

That's how it seems in Maura's case. When push came to shove, she really isn't made of steel, she isn't "totally responsible", she's in fact uncertain, a little flighty and irresponsible. Much more so than your average 21 year old.

She pretends to be tough enough for military school, but it appears she really didn't want that at all. Her desire to maintain her father's opinion of her seems all-encompassing, but she can't live that way, because that isn't actually what she is.

Her last couple weeks are marked by very bizarre and irresponsible behavior, and kind of a desperate attempt to keep touching base with her father. Going to his home at 3 a.m.? What's that about, except a red flag that she keeps needing positive reinforcement from him, even while she's messing up a lot.

Where is her mother? I know her mother lives with her siblings, but "where" is she in this? Has she ever made a single comment to anyone about Maura? Does Maura have any relationship at all - did they even communicate ever? Sharon Rausch seems to be functioning as Maura's mother, giving her a cell phone, continuing to search for her and speak out for her. Sharon Rausch and Fred Murray are the ones searching.

Her family dynamic - of caring SO DEEPLY what her father thinks of her, and appearing to have not much of a relationship with her mother, is very enlightening.

She left the military academy. She left nursing school. She was leaving her life, it seems, from pressure to be something she wasn't. The world needs poets AND bricklayers, but it appears she didn't know how to get out of the reputation of being a bricklayer, and couldn't face people not viewing her that way.

VERY long winded, sorry.

So. She left, packed up all her stuff to run away, and then what happened? Prayers she is, as you say, living elsewhere, but the last clues don't point that way.

docwho3
02-07-2006, 02:11 PM
. . .Prayers she is, as you say, living elsewhere, but the last clues don't point that way.Note:I added the bolding.

Before I continue let me comment on your post:Very eloquent.

So what clues are you referring to that you believe point to her being dead? I have looked and read much material about this case and I have not yet found anything at all that suggests she was kidnapped. There was no sign of struggle, no bloody weapon left behind, in fact no blood that I recall (although a car windshield was "spidered" if I remember right and I would have expected there might have been some blood from that but I don't recall reading anything in the news reports that mentioned any blood.) There was never a ransom call reported, and multiple searches of the area turned up nothing. The only witnesses in the case all said she was alive when they saw her.

Only one witness ever placed himself on the road alone with maura and even then we seem to have no evidence of wrongdoing on his part. The other two witnesses were sort of in sight of each other enough to have made a kidnap an extremely risky and nearly impossible thing to accomplish.

The school bus driver drove around looking for her after the police arrived (and they had arrived within 10 minutes of being called according to news reports.) She could not have gotten too many miles down the road in under 10 minutes so if she was not found by the driver looking for her then she was either already gone or she wanted to hide.

At some point down the road she had to be picked up or hike out or die on foot. Searches seem to have ruled out dying on foot although I realize that probably can't be said with any finality.

So I ask again, What evidence, what clues point to her being dead? I really want to know because if there is evidence or actual clues to indicate her being dead I want to know.

docwho3
02-07-2006, 02:16 PM
. . .Again, I have no doubt that Maura ran away and has no intention of contacting people from her "old life". Why bother, that would be just a reminder of how unhappy she was with her old life and the people that were in it. Out with the old, in with the new.You make some very good points. It is good to read your words again.

KatherineQ
02-07-2006, 02:42 PM
Thanks, Doc.

The "clues" I'm referring to aren't really solid clues - more like hunches and ruling out things.

I think you're right, there is a possibility she died of exposure within 10 miles or so of where she crashed. There have been a lot of searches, though, as you say, but it could still be possible she's there.

I can't see how she could have been picked up by a friend. She had no cell phone service, no way to contact anyone, the chances that a very close friend happened along and has kept her secret this whole time seems out of the realm of possibility.

Her only hope of having gotten out of there safely is that a stranger gave her a ride, and then didn't report it despite massive publicity and a large reward. That possibility seems very slim.

So that's it - getting from the crash site to somewhere safe - I just can't think how she could do it, without leaving a trace.

docwho3
02-07-2006, 03:01 PM
I can't see how she could have been picked up by a friend. She had no cell phone service, no way to contact anyone, the chances that a very close friend happened along and has kept her secret this whole time seems out of the realm of possibility.

Her only hope of having gotten out of there safely is that a stranger gave her a ride, and then didn't report it despite massive publicity and a large reward. That possibility seems very slim.

So that's it - getting from the crash site to somewhere safe - I just can't think how she could do it, without leaving a trace.
I have had times where I had to go somewhere in a car that was not running dependably and so I had asked in advance to have a friend or relative follow my route. They didn't have to follow directly behind me but just drive the route some amount of time later and watch for my car to be at the side of the road in case I got stranded. That way if it broke down I would know I had help on the way if I just waited.

I think this might be what happened with Maura that night. I admit that so far I have no actual evidence to prove that's what happened but to me it sounds more likely to have been the case than for a homicidal maniac happening along at just that tiny window of time to see and kidnap her.
I think at one time L.E. perhaps expected something similar since one of the last things I read of quotes from that state police person. . . scarazina? (can't remember his exact name at the moment) said something like he was waiting for someone from her college to come forth with info.

As to the person not reporting it:some people won't report an adult friend who is running away. They might even consider it a point of honor.

armywife210
02-07-2006, 04:47 PM
armywife- I don't know if anyone answered you yet but if you log onto AKO under the white pages you can look up Bill Rausch and it will tell you exactly where he is and what unit he is with etc..
yep, found him and my husband knows him.

docwho3
02-07-2006, 09:52 PM
Even though that isn't my favorite thought, I share this news item just because it harms nothing to look at all possibilities. For those that think she may have hiked out on foot :

. . .Published 2/19/04
Fred Murray and his son returned to the motel last night after spending much of the day combing the snowy woods in the White Mountains National Forest not far from the Haverhill site where Maura was last seen. Her father said he followed boot prints over about a half-mile of rugged terrain before he saw a clear enough print to determine that they had been made by boots larger that his daughter's size 8è shoes. . .http://www.vnews.com/02192004/1598142.htm

Thought:Ever wear overshoes in snow or maybe wear large shoes with more layers of socks in snow?

Mygirlsadie
02-07-2006, 10:08 PM
Oh ok! I found his info. and was going to post it here but thought I better not since its coming from AKO i'm not sure of the rules on that ...




yep, found him and my husband knows him.

armywife210
02-08-2006, 04:53 PM
Does anyone know if Maura had with her her birth certificate and social security card? Her old tax forms ? Or did she leave these behind? Has LE checked her credit report? I assume only they could, I don't think a family member could get one, although maybe they did?

Has anyone checked vital records where Maura was born to see if she got a new copy of her birth certificate? I don't know if they keep records of requests, but, they might. I read somewhere, can't recall where, that someone checked her Soc Sec record and her number has not been used. I again assume LE did that? Does anyone know if someone does succeed in changing their SSN - difficult but not impossible - what record is on the old one? Just shows no activity at all, or would SSA tell someone that the account is closed out?

Thanks.
none of that stuff. her drivers license, a couple of credit cards and thats it. Her social security number has had no activity what so ever, same with her credit report.

armywife210
02-08-2006, 05:00 PM
Oh ok! I found his info. and was going to post it here but thought I better not since its coming from AKO i'm not sure of the rules on that ...no dont ever post anything anywhere that you got off AKO.
They have such high level of security on that site for a reason.
I thought of going on AKO and finding it immediately but ... you know how your account expires if you dont keep changing your password. I hadnt gone on that site for awhile and wasnt really paying attention. My husband would send reminders to our home email to redo my password but I just didnt even pay attention. I had to get him when he had time to reactivate my account, which he did for me. That is when I found out that he knows CPT Rausch. I had no idea because of all of the changes that have been going on recently with merging units and things like that.... but right now they do the same job, just on different levels.

Mygirlsadie
02-08-2006, 06:25 PM
I kinda thought that..thanks! Don't want Uncle Sam knocking on my door! Anyway it's funny you said about your password because when i logged on to check for Rausch I couldnt get on due to I needed to update my password also so I just logged into hubby's account and got the info from there. So this guy is the fiance but has no involvement whatsoever right? I am just starting to get into this case...




no dont ever post anything anywhere that you got off AKO.
They have such high level of security on that site for a reason.
I thought of going on AKO and finding it immediately but ... you know how your account expires if you dont keep changing your password. I hadnt gone on that site for awhile and wasnt really paying attention. My husband would send reminders to our home email to redo my password but I just didnt even pay attention. I had to get him when he had time to reactivate my account, which he did for me. That is when I found out that he knows CPT Rausch. I had no idea because of all of the changes that have been going on recently with merging units and things like that.... but right now they do the same job, just on different levels.

Peabody
02-08-2006, 06:34 PM
LEDGER UPDATE: WHERE IS MAURA? 2 YEARS LATER, MISSING HANSON WOMAN’S FAMILY CLINGS TO HOPE, WAITS FOR ANSWERS

http://www.southofboston.com/conten...news/news02.jpg (http://www.southofboston.com/content/articles/2006/02/08/headlines/news/news02.jpg)
Family photo of Maura Murray as a teenager. (Courtesy The Murray family)




By JOE McGEE
The Patriot Ledger



Laurie Murray has had the same bedtime ritual every night for the past two years. She prays to the Catholic patron saint of lost things, hoping that she’ll awaken to good news. ‘‘What I do every night is pray to St. Anthony,’’ Murray said. ‘‘I have a statue right here.’’

It will be two years tomorrow since Laurie’s daughter, Hanson native Maura Murray, a student at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, disappeared after a minor traffic accident in Haverhill, (http://www.southofboston.com/articles/2006/02/08/headlines/news/news02.txt)

<snip>

Murray’s boyfriend, Army Capt. William Rausch, said he still has a special place in his heart for Maura, the girl he planned to marry.

Still single, Rausch, 25, said he finds strength by dedicating himself to his job at Fort Sill, Okla., and staying close with friends from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, where he and Murray met. Some of his colleagues knew Murray from the year she spent at West Point and have fond memories of her, Rausch said.

‘‘It seems evident that whatever happened is concrete,’’ Rausch said, ‘‘but I still love her like many others do, and I feel lucky to have had what we had.’’

Complete story at Link:

http:// (http://www.southofboston.com/articles/2006/02/08/headlines/news/news02.txt)N.H.www.southofboston.com/articles/2006/02/08/headlines/news/news02.txt (http://www.southofboston.com/articles/2006/02/08/headlines/news/news02.txt)

Peabody
02-08-2006, 09:30 PM
Cyberlaw - I think you're half right. I think that was her intent, to leave and never return.

But there's the other half - then what happened? Then what happened to her, and is there a murderer out there who is waiting to grab someone else and make them a victim?

I have spent so much time thinking and thinking of her case, and trying to put myself in her shoes. Here's what I come up with.

Everyone says she's strong, responsible, capable, not flighty, dependable, etc. (I know whenever someone goes missing there's always someone who pops up and declares it's not in their character to do that, and they're totally wrong, it IS in their character and they do weird stuff all the time, but in Maura's case, I believe her reputation was really sound.)

She is extremely close to her father, who holds an image of her that's she's tough and rugged and dependable. She seems to really like that opinion of herself and worked fairly hard to keep that reputation in his eyes. Children in a family dymanic often subvert their true personalities to fit a parent's image when that image is positively rewarded.

That's how it seems in Maura's case. When push came to shove, she really isn't made of steel, she isn't "totally responsible", she's in fact uncertain, a little flighty and irresponsible. Much more so than your average 21 year old.

She pretends to be tough enough for military school, but it appears she really didn't want that at all. Her desire to maintain her father's opinion of her seems all-encompassing, but she can't live that way, because that isn't actually what she is.

Her last couple weeks are marked by very bizarre and irresponsible behavior, and kind of a desperate attempt to keep touching base with her father. Going to his home at 3 a.m.? What's that about, except a red flag that she keeps needing positive reinforcement from him, even while she's messing up a lot.

Where is her mother? I know her mother lives with her siblings, but "where" is she in this? Has she ever made a single comment to anyone about Maura? Does Maura have any relationship at all - did they even communicate ever? Sharon Rausch seems to be functioning as Maura's mother, giving her a cell phone, continuing to search for her and speak out for her. Sharon Rausch and Fred Murray are the ones searching.

Her family dynamic - of caring SO DEEPLY what her father thinks of her, and appearing to have not much of a relationship with her mother, is very enlightening.

She left the military academy. She left nursing school. She was leaving her life, it seems, from pressure to be something she wasn't. The world needs poets AND bricklayers, but it appears she didn't know how to get out of the reputation of being a bricklayer, and couldn't face people not viewing her that way.

VERY long winded, sorry.

So. She left, packed up all her stuff to run away, and then what happened? Prayers she is, as you say, living elsewhere, but the last clues don't point that way.
The story in this link should answer the questions which have highlighted in both bold and red.

http://www.southofboston.com/articles/2006/02/08/headlines/news/news02.txt

Laurie Murray had a broken foot/leg when Maura first went mentioned - this was published along with photographs at the beginning. Soon after she was diagnosed with cancer.......these physical ailments alone are enough to prevent her from being in the public eye "looking" for her daughter.

Aside from that, there are always personalities to be considered. Because Fred and Sharon are in the public eye does not mean that others are not looking. Just as it takes each member of a successful team in any sport or work envirionment to fulfil their role, I know first hand that there are many "players" working in their role to bring Maura home.

Also, there are those who love Maura who, because of their occupation (i.e. Julie and Billy, Captains in the army) are prevented from taking an active role in searching for her. Does this mean they love her less? Absolutely not. In fact, they may even have a more difficult time because of their limitations.

From my perspective, it is insensitive to judge what a loved one may be doing or not doing in the case of the missing person in their family.

With prayers for Maura and all those who love her.

KatherineQ
02-08-2006, 09:36 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting, I'm really just trying to read between the lines and sometimes guesses are wrong.

This is a confusing story, with people saying confusing things like that Maura was the picture of stability when all that seems to be reported of her last few weeks were someone who was completely unstable, and maybe depressed.

It seems the closer people are to someone they love who is missing, the more they may believe the person would never purposely leave, and yet that does happen.

prayers from me, also, that she is found alive although the possibility seems remote.

Peabody
02-08-2006, 10:00 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting, I'm really just trying to read between the lines and sometimes guesses are wrong.

This is a confusing story, with people saying confusing things like that Maura was the picture of stability when all that seems to be reported of her last few weeks were someone who was completely unstable, and maybe depressed.

It seems the closer people are to someone they love who is missing, the more they may believe the person would never purposely leave, and yet that does happen.

prayers from me, also, that she is found alive although the possibility seems remote.
KatherineQ,

I did not find your remarks insulting, only misinformed. Thank you for your interest in Maura's case.

Her case is certainly a confusing story.

However, when it comes to facts regarding Maura personally being unstable and depressed, the only facts are: (1.) that she was crying uncontrollably at work one night before she went missing (2.) that she had 2 accidents in 2 nights/three days - and both were sliding on icy roads - most unfortunate, but not indicators of her being unstable (3.) that she decided to take a few days off of school and not tell anyone

In my review of these facts, I do not find them to be indicators at all of her being unstable or depressed.

No doubt, somthing had her feeling overwhelmed - but I think armywife said it very well on www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com/) and most likely, she was physically tired from working 2 part time jobs and maintaining Dean's List grades while being across the continent from the man she loved.

Being female, having 4 sisters and several daughters, I know it is not unusual to just have emotional meltdown and NOT BE UNSTABLE......there are times that are short lived when everything just seems to be too much.

Most of what is "published" on the internet about Maura being depressed or unstable is theory.........just as the police had a theory that she was suicidal and running away.

If you read Sharon's report on www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com/), you will see that the police had a theory that she was both suicidal and a runaway at the same time. I know that is one of the reasons the family begged them to look for her: The family told the police "IF you believe she is suicidal, then don't you have the obligation and responsibility to be looking for her to prevent her from harming herself." Their answer was that Maura was 21 and had the right to do as she pleased.

From this theory of the police, many have "assumed" that Maura was unstable and depressed. There is no coborating (sp) evidence that any family, friend or investigator can find.

Thank you for joining me in prayer for Maura and her loved ones.

KatherineQ
02-08-2006, 10:28 PM
Peabody - I don't know her, so I'm kind of at a disadvantage here compared to you and others who do know her.

I'm only speaking as a stranger, but with some experience with depression.

To cry uncontrollably when there is no apparent external source of the upset is a big red flag. To pack up her room and not tell her fiance, her family or her friends that she was leaving, and to email her teachers with a lie that she had a family death and had to leave, really, these are huge red flags. To pretend to be cheerful through all of this and then quietly sneak off . . .

Stable people don't do this. They might tell friends I really need to get away, see you in a few days. Or they may pack a few things and head off for a few days of solitude. But to pack up her room and buy a LOT of alcohol and leave quietly is something entirely different.

To do the planning that Maura did, searching for a place to stay days ahead, and emailing professors, and then concealing her leaving from her friends, family and fiance, are all enormous steps.

I don't mean to sound hurtful. Have you consulted suicide prevention and support groups and talked about Maura?

Masterj
02-08-2006, 10:52 PM
Peabody - I don't know her, so I'm kind of at a disadvantage here compared to you and others who do know her.

I'm only speaking as a stranger, but with some experience with depression.

To cry uncontrollably when there is no apparent external source of the upset is a big red flag. To pack up her room and not tell her fiance, her family or her friends that she was leaving, and to email her teachers with a lie that she had a family death and had to leave, really, these are huge red flags. To pretend to be cheerful through all of this and then quietly sneak off . . .

Stable people don't do this. They might tell friends I really need to get away, see you in a few days. Or they may pack a few things and head off for a few days of solitude. But to pack up her room and buy a LOT of alcohol and leave quietly is something entirely different.

To do the planning that Maura did, searching for a place to stay days ahead, and emailing professors, and then concealing her leaving from her friends, family and fiance, are all enormous steps.

I don't mean to sound hurtful. Have you consulted suicide prevention and support groups and talked about Maura?
I don't believe it has been confirmed that her room was packed up. It could just have easily been that she hadn't unpacked yet from break. Additionally, the amount of alcohol is not necessarily a lot.

Maura does not sound like the type to tell her friends she is going away for a few days. In my opinion she is someone who keeps to herself as she appears to trust herself to make the right decisions.

KatherineQ
02-08-2006, 11:01 PM
I don't believe it has been confirmed that her room was packed up. It could just have easily been that she hadn't unpacked yet from break. Additionally, the amount of alcohol is not necessarily a lot.

Maura does not sound like the type to tell her friends she is going away for a few days. In my opinion she is someone who keeps to herself as she appears to trust herself to make the right decisions.

I don't know what you'd consider a "lot" of alcohol.

Masterj
02-08-2006, 11:15 PM
I don't know what you'd consider a "lot" of alcohol.
We know she bought a bottle of baileys, one of kahlua and one vodka. I don't believe we have any idea what size these bottles are. In my opinion, the size of the bottles would help me determine whether or not it was a lot.

KatherineQ
02-08-2006, 11:18 PM
And a box of red wine. And I've always read "bottles of vodka" although that might not be right.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 12:33 AM
KatherineQ,

I did not find your remarks insulting, only misinformed. Thank you for your interest in Maura's case.

Her case is certainly a confusing story.

However, when it comes to facts regarding Maura personally being unstable and depressed, the only facts are: (1.) that she was crying uncontrollably at work one night before she went missing (2.) that she had 2 accidents in 2 nights/three days - and both were sliding on icy roads - most unfortunate, but not indicators of her being unstable (3.) that she decided to take a few days off of school and not tell anyone. . . Oh, I don't know but how about adding to the list that she had 2 single car wrecks within a few days of each other at least one of which had alcohol involved. Could those have been suicide attempts? Many suicides have early attempts that fail before doing the real thing. Would L.E. have considered that as a possible red flag item? Probably. The day she left she was reported to have been seen on security camera footage, alone, buying a significant amount of alcohol and tylenol (which might have been another one of the reasons the L.E. thought she might have been suicidal since alcohol and tylenol is often a combo used in suicide attempts.) L.E. reported in the news reports that her room was packed up, even taking the pics off the walls, even though some have disputed that without any real proof of that I might add, and piled all her letters from her boyfriend on the bed along with other things(and there had been past problems between Maura & her boyfriend according to boyfriends moms news statement), again according to news reports quoting L.E. She left West Point possibly to change from a school where leaving improperly would have been illegal to attend Umass with a killer schedule in effect the whole time, according to you peabody, and then lies to her employer & to her college profs about her reasons
to leave (not typical for a level headed stable person of West Point type of character.) Then Maura lied to her boyfriend and failed to let him know what she was planning. She also failed to let her family know. (Yes I have heard the claims that she surely would have done so but the fact is that she did not do so and there is not one shred of evidence that she ever would have.)

I could go on and on but I mentioned all this, not to somehow dirty the name of the missing person but because I am getting tired of posters from the maura murray.com site coming over to this thread and browbeating posters for daring to follow the evidence to a logical conclusion (and a conclusion I might add that seems to be what L.E. came to long ago.) It is getting old to have people act as if we are all somehow being blind to be willing to look at the facts at their face value. When a fact might indicate Maura is alive and thus gets in the way of Maura being dead that fact is summarily dismissed as being a misquote or just plain wrong almost always without any supporting proof at all and if a poster persists in looking at facts he/she is spoken of as if they are somehow being unreasonable or are "assuming" things not in evidence. This smacks of spin control and it is unworthy of this forum.


. . .No doubt, somthing had her feeling overwhelmed - but I think armywife said it very well on www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com/) and most likely, she was physically tired from working 2 part time jobs and maintaining Dean's List grades while being across the continent from the man she loved. . .Yes army wife said what she thought when she said
. . . With that being said I am going to post my theory next, though it is not completely done. I would love to hear what you guys have for input. I am a bit reluctant to post it on websleuths in fear of a lynching.... talk about determined to believe that this is a shiny happy world with all shiny happy people holding hands! Some of those folks are in serious denial! . . .
Actually I was the only person even hinted at (by peabody) not to post certain posts so the only real pressure or lynching on this thread has really come from the other side of the aisle so to speak. If you all want to believe that Maura is dead (as was the case for some from the time she had been gone only 10 days) at least allow others to view the evidence independant of pressure or accusations and without calling us a lynch mob in denial. As for me, I will continue to look in on this thread but I will not try to look into her willful leaving further as I think we have come close to violating Maura's privacy and don't want to cause her to be found against her will. I will continue to look into possibilities of foul play if any turn up.


. . .Most of what is "published" on the internet about Maura being depressed or unstable is theory.........just as the police had a theory that she was suicidal and running away. . . That's a possible state of mind during a "meltdown."


. . .Their answer was that Maura was 21 and had the right to do as she pleased. . . That seems to have been the right answer.


. . .From this theory of the police, many have "assumed" that Maura was unstable and depressed. There is no coborating (sp) evidence that any family, friend or investigator can find. . . See the list of reasons above. Not sure "assumed" is the right description there. They looked at the evidence and came to a conlusion. You might think it was the wrong conclusion but no one just jumped to that conclusion without looking at things about the case that make that seem a reasonable conclusion.


. . .Thank you for joining me in prayer for Maura and her loved ones. I too earnestly hope for a happy conclusion for Maura and her family. Before we split into name calling sides I think everyone should remember we really are all supposed to be here to attempt to help a hopefully happy conclusion take place. This is not a personal attack on you peabody or anyone but it is a cry for a more reasoned and careful approach to this discussion.

nnglas
02-09-2006, 01:09 AM
DocWho,

I must admit, in the beginning I was totally against your theory. But the more I ponder this case, I am starting to agree with you.

There are still certain aspects of your theory that I just can't grasp. I just don't think someone she knew was following her to make sure she was safe. So I have to go with the thought that she either walked or hitchhiked out of there.

Another thing that makes me think that Maura may have disappeared is the call to her boyfriends cell phone. Ok, if the family thinks that it was her calling, she must have left the accident site ok. So going on that theory alone she must have willingly dropped out of sight. I don't buy that she had like 3 seconds to make a call, and she called him, and the cell phone wasn't working correctly, I mean all of that seems a little far fetched. If in fact she was being held against her will and she had like seconds to make a call from a phone booth or something, why call him with a calling card? I mean my experience with calling cards is that that is alot of numbers to dial, when she could have simply called 911, or the operator.

So, with that I am going to jump on your bandwagon, and hope that wherever she is she if safe and sound, and didn't hurt herself. Also, I pray that she at least contacts someone, anyone who knows her and lets them know that she is indeed ok. I know, I know, that is not likely, but I can still pray.

BTW, she could have hitchhiked and told the person who picked her up that she was leaving some sort of danger so she asked them not to report seeing her.

Another short point is that I think that while I believe that her family misses her very much, and I sympathize with them, I have to agree that from published reports, it seems that Maura was very much controlled by people around her. I am only saying that to say that it could very well be why she decided to disappear, if she decided to disappear.

JMO

docwho3
02-09-2006, 01:29 AM
. . .BTW, she could have hitchhiked and told the person who picked her up that she was leaving some sort of danger so she asked them not to report seeing her.

Another short point is that I think that while I believe that her family misses her very much, and I sympathize with them, I have to agree that from published reports, it seems that Maura was very much controlled by people around her. I am only saying that to say that it could very well be why she decided to disappear, if she decided to disappear.

JMO You make some good points there. Even though I posted my own theory that does not mean it is all set in concrete. It is certainly possible that she hiked out or even hitchhiked. In fact there are several possibilites and my personal theory is always subject to change as evidence surfaces. Thank you for the kind words. I hope that someday Maura and her family's troubles have a happy ending. Whatever happens, I am convinced that there are some intelligent people working hard on the case.

Peabody
02-09-2006, 01:43 AM
Fred Murray is appealing the decision by the judge in Grafton County Superior Court to the New Hampshire State Supreme Court

Father Appeals To N.H. High Court For Missing Daughter's Records



POSTED: 12:16 pm EST January 31, 2006


CONCORD, N.H. -- The father of a Massachusetts woman missing for two years in New Hampshire is pressing his attempts to get police files.

Last week, a Superior Court judge rejected Fred Murray's request for investigative files, so he is appealing to the state Supreme Court.

Murray's daughter, Maura, of Hanson, Mass., disappeared in northern New Hampshire after a minor car accident in February 2004.

Link: http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/...015/detail.html (http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/6625015/detail.html)

Rachael
02-09-2006, 01:44 AM
My feeling is this.. IF someone picked Maura up near the scene of the accident and dropped her off unharmed they would have reported it to the police (provided that they heard about this case on the news or radio). The only way this would make sense would be if the person was not from the area (as in a truck driver making his/her way through the state ect). :waitasec: I would like to think that she took off on her own and I know that would be very hurtful to the family but I don't think that is the case. I wish it were.

armywife210
02-09-2006, 03:23 AM
Ok DocWho, here I am. Don't get all bent at poor Peabody if it's me you have something against. I haven't had much time lately to spend online as I might like as my husband is getting ready to deploy. The time I do spend online has been spent gathering information and answering PMs on mauramurray.com as well as my theory at this point. I did that because I was requested to.
I will admit that I am totally bewildered by the thought that she just up and left on her own. I do have a bit of a sarcastic side to me which I admit, at times I need to curb. If I got a bit sarcastic, I do apologize.

That being said, I am still bewildered.
She had no reason to leave. She had no personality disorder. She had no legal problems. She had very good grades. She had a very close relationship with her family. She was not being controlled by anyone. She had no reason to fear if she really did want to leave UMass. There was nothing shady about her time at West Point, she never had a single honor violation. She didn't owe money. She wasn't involved in drugs. She drank lightly, and she carried tylenol. She got into two accidents. Well one of them was minor and most likely due to road conditions. No one was upset with her about the accidents.

The girl was stressed out and missed her boyfriend. Good gosh, I was in nearly the same situation that she was in when I was engaged. In fact, when I was a university student up in northern MN my fiance' was here at FT Sill. I was working like a maniac with school, going back and forth from MN to OK. I was so incredibly stressed. I have been in three car accidents in my life. One was when I was 16, just learning about MN ice and 4 wheel drives not being invincible. The other two were within a three week time period when I was completely stressed out from school and missing my fiance'. Did I think about taking off? Yea, I did think about taking off, but to Oklahoma. TO the one I love, not away from him. Have I gone on crying jigs when I am stressed? I am a woman, need I say more?

I see no evidence what so ever of her having to run from anything or anyone. A few days away by herself were in order though. When you are 21, you have a cell phone and a triple A card (both of which she had just gotten), what else do you need to feel safe?

It seems that it's just nicer to believe that she left on her own rather than that she was taken. The family wishes and prays that is true. But the family knows that it isn't. The vast majority of girls that go missing are abducted. Few do show up years later living a new life, but it's very few and in those cases deep down the family knew something was a bit off. So many girls go missing every year, some are found a few months later dead. Some are found years later dead, some are never found. There are even cases where they are abducted and kept against their will for years.

Certain family members don't even post on here anymore because it hurts them to see how people that don't even know Maura are coming to believe things that are not even close to being within her character. This hinders the public cry for answers. The publics insistence is what motivates authorities to put more effort into investigating, thus solving, crimes.

A family knows when something is deeply wrong. True she was a private person and liked to deal with things on her own. She was stressed out, but she was not ready to flee. There is a huge difference between having a heart of gold and not wanting people to worry about you, and having a heart of steel and taking off.

Maura's boyfriend knows she loved him and wanted nothing more than to be his wife. His mother remembers her talking with so much love about getting married to her son and having "little Billy's".

These people live with this pain every single day of their lives. They KNOW that she didn't just leave. They NEED answers. They need public support.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 05:34 AM
. . .That being said, I am still bewildered.
She had no reason to leave. . . Actually, as I used examples in previous posts to show, a missing person does not have to have what you or I would see as a valid reason to decide willfully leave. I know that may sound hard to believe but it is so and it is one reason that I went to the trouble to post examples. I did that to help people understand and not to intimidate anyone from posting contrary opinions. Sometimes the missing person goes missing for reasons known only to themselves, sometimes due to mental breakdown. We may not know the intimate details of their life but that does not stop them from leaving anyway.

Let me take a moment to say that I recognize your right to believe that she was the victem of foul play even though I see no evidence to support that so far and I do not mind in the least to try to point out any possible points about the case, as they occur to me, that might bear investigation and thus possibly yield the proof of foul play that you seek.

I don't require it be one way or the other. I tend to go by evidence. What little facts are known in this case lend to her being alive and having left on her own and the known statistics according to L.E. sites, so far, tend towards her being alive. That having been said, if evidence turns up to indicate otherwise I will quickly change my mind. I go by evidence.

If I take issue with some of your points it is not meant as an insult to you:

. . .She had no personality disorder. . .Actually, you can't know her psychiatric health without having had access to her psych records or without having seen her professionally as her psychiatrist.

. . .She was not being controlled by anyone. . . There are some hints in news reports that to my mind hint otherwise and I don't see how you can know that without living in the family. And again, I previously posted examples of family of a missing person saying there was no abnormal control even when the missing person was found and said there certainly was control. So don't feel badly if I and some others hesitate to take the family word about such things as being gospel.

. . .She had no reason to fear if she really did want to leave UMass. . . Again we do not know that to be true. It is an assumption you make.
. . .There was nothing shady about her time at West Point, she never had a single honor violation. . . . Ummmm no comment at this time. (Keeping my word.)

. . .She didn't owe money. She wasn't involved in drugs. She drank lightly, and she carried tylenol. She got into two accidents. Well one of them was minor and most likely due to road conditions. No one was upset with her about the accidents. . .You are still looking for her to have what you would consider valid reasons to leave and, as I have learned in my time at websleuths, that is not how it works. Sometimes they just leave. As to the facts about her owing or not owing money, I doubt we would know that. (I have known friends to loan $1000 to each other only on their word.) As to the accidents I see you are already making excuses for her by mentioning possible road conditions when you,again, don't know for sure. I admit it is possible the two accidents weren't suicide attempts and I mentioned them in a previous post to point out that, in the total of the evidence known, it is easily understandable for L.E. and others of us to see Maura as being possibly unstable and/or suicidal and running away. For those of you that believe Maura is the victem of foul play I think you would serve your cause far better by finding some actual evidence of foul play than to continue to try to defend her actions as being pure as the driven snow. I doubt she was that pure just as I doubt she was evil but she was human with strengths & weaknesses. I am more concerned with learning if there was in fact any foul play. This was not a little girl. This was a woman with the right to leave in privacy if she wants but also with the right to not be murdered.


. . .It seems that it's just nicer to believe that she left on her own rather than that she was taken. The family wishes and prays that is true. . . Ten days after she was gone family had evidently already been speaking of foul play rather than safe return:

(Published 2/19/04) . . .But he did say, although there were no new developments yesterday, he was not ready just yet to go along with the fears of family members that Maura Murray has been the victim of foul play. . .http://www.vnews.com/02192004/1598142.htm

I mention that to respond to your point and also because that article says something to me about the psychology involved in some angles of this case, something that I had to learn about over time in reading cases here at Websleuths. Since I think most likely Maura left on her own I see no need to go into that point indepth now.


. . .The vast majority of girls that go missing are abducted. Few do show up years later living a new life, but it's very few and in those cases deep down the family knew something was a bit off. So many girls go missing every year, some are found a few months later dead. Some are found years later dead, some are never found. There are even cases where they are abducted and kept against their will for years. . . As I said Maura was/is a woman, not a little girl.
According to L.E. websites the majority of missing persons are not the victem of foul play. You need to check your facts or see some of my previous posts. One of them has a link to an L.E. website which speaks to that subject. It may be in the locked thread but it is still readable.

In conclusion, Even though I presently think Maura left willfully, I would rather we all work towards making sure if there was or was not foul play instead of "being sarcastic". As a sort of peace offering let me point out some things that might bear looking into. I know some are just now being gone over in Mauramurray.com but some of these were already brought up in the past here at websleuths.

1. Only one person has admited to being on the road alone with Maura that night, the construction worker. That means we have only his word and no others as to his actions that night. I never like uncorroborated statements.
Did he make it up? Maybe, but it bears investigation to rule out if nothing else.
2. There was mention made of a possible fake police car having been on the scene. This was never confirmed to my knowledge and in fact I think I read in past posts on the murray site that it had been discredited, but even so at the time it was brought up here I found a few listings of people using such a ploy and posted them and another poster mentioned even more instances.
3. If Maura did plan to leave and if she infact did have a helper as I have posited then that person could have decided to double cross her so finding such person if he/they exists could provide info you seek but take care because it could also violate her privacy.
4. I already posted about the footprints in the snow. If they were hers they might point to where she went. . . .perhaps to remains in the snow somewhere?

There is one other possibility which I do not yet mention as there is no basis.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 06:29 AM
One extra little point: The Mauramurray.com website lists her stats this way:

Missing Since: February 9, 2004
Age: 22
Gender: Female
Race: Caucasian
Height: 67 inches
Weight: 120 pounds
Hair Type: Curly
Hair Color: Brown
Eye Color: Blue-Green
Clothing: Possibly wearing a dark colored coat and jeans, carrying a black backpack.
I suppose that means she was 22 when she disappeared in case anyone wondered.

Gabby
02-09-2006, 07:03 AM
Prayers for Maura and her loved ones... Come home soon Maura

armywife210
02-09-2006, 09:56 AM
And a box of red wine. And I've always read "bottles of vodka" although that might not be right.vodka was not true. There were 3 bottles of alcohol and one box of wine.
Two of those types are used to make a favorite drink. One of those bottles are used in her coffee.
If she were planning to drink them all in one inhale, I would agree that it is a bit much alcohol. If she were planning to consume from each bottle in the next few days, I would say she were on a relax and chill mission.
I have no idea how large the bottles were, but I do know that it's less expensive to by in a regular size bottle than in a small bottle, and for a casual drinker who will eventually consume it, why not by bigger. You can bring it back with you.

armywife210
02-09-2006, 10:23 AM
Docwho,

I have been asked by the family to represent Maura, so I do know some things.

Why do you suppose that all those closest to her, who know her character and her future plans, her loves, would start to lean toward foul play from the getgo? I certainly dont think that it's because they want her gone. I certainly dont think its because they have a plan to use LE to track down that silly girl.

A controlling family certainly does not send their offspring to West Point where they will have no control over them for the next 9 years, four at WP and atleast 5 following.

There is nothing controlling about her boyfriend, so I am not sure what kind of control that there might be.

As for the supposed honor violation, or something of the sort, at WP that you hint of. Forgive me, but I happen to know that once anyone there has a violation of any sort the whole place knows your buisness. It's not that the place is a rumor mill but it's hard to keep a secret like that when you are given added details and you suddenly have no privilages. Especially when you are involved in things (track). Then when you leave after all of this, it's sort of a tip off.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 01:13 PM
Docwho,

I have been asked by the family to represent Maura, so I do know some things. . . At least you are now honest about being here as their rep., which you had not said until now.


. . .Why do you suppose that all those closest to her, who know her character and her future plans, her loves, would start to lean toward foul play from the getgo?. . . That question used to nag at me a bit but I think I gained some insight into it recently so it is not necessary for me to go into it indepth here.

. . .I certainly dont think that it's because they want her gone. I certainly dont think its because they have a plan to use LE to track down that silly girl. . . Well, actually, Fred was quoted on a news report as saying he didnt feel he should have to bear the expense of looking for her when he felt it was L.E.'s job, so I could think that is partly behind it if I wanted to take that remark as it was spoken and I have known other people that certainly would have meant it that way. Knowing that L.E. is unlikely to do much with the case as long as its considered a willful adult runaway might give one reason to continue to want the case painted as foul play because as an adult runaway it can get expensive for the family to have to do their own tracking down of the missing person. And you yourself said ". . .This hinders the public cry for answers. The publics insistence is what motivates authorities to put more effort into investigating, thus solving, crimes. . ."
Let me hasten to add though, that I have,as I said before, gained some insight which I think goes beyond that and it seems to me unnecessary to argue the point between us now.


. . .A controlling family certainly does not send their offspring to West Point where they will have no control over them for the next 9 years, four at WP and atleast 5 following. . . I might disagree with you about that point and other things involving controling behavior but since I am no longer looking into her willful disappearance (to avoid violating her privacy) I don't feel the need to argue the point in depth at this time.


. . .As for the supposed honor violation, or something of the sort, at WP that you hint of. Forgive me, but I happen to know that once anyone there has a violation of any sort the whole place knows your buisness. It's not that the place is a rumor mill but it's hard to keep a secret like that when you are given added details and you suddenly have no privilages. Especially when you are involved in things (track). Then when you leave after all of this, it's sort of a tip off. Remember that you were the one who brought the subject up, twice now. I have said publicly for the second time now, "No comment at this time." (keeping my word.)" In any case the point only lightly touches upon the overall case and so is not worth arguing over. And in case someone might therefore think that I know some great and terrible damning black hearted thing about Maura the answer is "no". I say that much because I don't want to dirty Maura's name by not answering your question publicly and yet I need to keep my word to someone else.

On another note: You may have noticed I have not posted on the Maura Murray.com site at all. This is partly because I understand that it is mostly (although not 100%) populated with people who strongly believe in only the foul play theory and I actually think that it is important to not disturb that thought process. There needs to be one online place that does all that can be done to rule out foul play without splitting their efforts into considering willful leaving as well and I think that site will pretty much do that.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions or comments. After all,if we both wish for the happiest conclusion possible for Maura & her family then we are on the same side in the end.

CyberLaw
02-09-2006, 02:48 PM
Unless you were in Maura mind, in her life, in her own relam of reality, you do not know MAURA"S resons for leaving, what was going on in her life that you or anyone else was not "privvy" to. Maura was the person who owned her emotions and thoughts. She obviously had her own reasons for "ditching" her family and boyfriend and "running away".

The statement "she had no reason" to leave, can be and is applicable to many, many case of "voluntary" missing adults.

Of course that is not the perspective of the "voluntary missing person", they feel they have "plenty" of reasons to leave and they do. They just choose not to share those reasons or tell anyone they are planning on "go missing". Therefore to an "outside person" they had "no reason to leave"

If you don't think that a women is not "troubled" greatly and may not be "emotionally" unstable just because she ONLY: Breaks down "emotionally" and is "too emotionally distraught" to the extent that she needs help to return to her dorm room ad is crying "hysterically", and ONLY gets into one accident where alcohol may be a factor and then ONLY in almost as many days, gets into another car acccident where alcohol again may be a factor, in addition to packing up her dorm room, draining her bank account and then buying booze while she is "on the road", is not troubled, then please review your logic and facts.

Look at the behavior.........

Since that person is not concerned with their own safety,(let alone the safety of others) I would think this would be a very, strong sign that person is "unstable,". After all, they are showing signs of "self destructive" behavior.

That person is "in emotional pain" and needs help so they do not hurt themselves or other people.

Some people just don't want to attend University, just because their parents want them to, some people want to live their life, experience the world, learn new things, work a job or a career that their parents don't want them to, after all they are 21 and an adult.

They have now learned that there is a whole world out there and they are free as the adult they are, to explore it, even if it means not finishing school, becoming a nurse, becoming an Army Wife, moving all over the place every few years, and then to top it all of, to be a Mom.

Before or if they step into that life, many people want to experience a different life other then the one their parents mapped out for them, especially if the adult child sees that they have a choice for their own life and they do not have to do "everything their parents want, just to please them, and avoid any family conflict".

The regret of looking back on your life and saying: What if....why did I not, I should have, I had the opportunity, I wish I did, especially when you could "see the writing" on the wall, is not the way a lot of people "wished" they had lived their lives.

So instead of: I should have.......they did, because they are young, have no husband and children. They are single..........an adult and 21.

Sometimes "adult children" have to be loyal and true to themselves, their own wants and wishes for their own life over and above what their adult parents "want them and expect" them to do.

Adult parents cannot control adult children, some parents learn that the hard way.............

Again, I have no doubt, what so ever, that Maura left on her on and is living the life that she wants to. Not the life anyone else wants her to, her life, according to Maura Murray.

Also I just have to add: I agree with the reason that Doc gave for "the Murray's family" quick "assumption" that Maura is dead.

LE said in essence this is not a "criminal case" it is now up to you to find your daughter as it is very evident that she planned and did run away. This is now a civil case, a private case, and not a case that involves public safety or any "breaking of the law", nor should you expect the "taxpayer" to pay for LE to find your daughter as no law has been broken and there is no evidence of a crime being committed.

So now, Fred Murray thinks: Well if Maura "has been a victim of foul" play then LE has to look for her..........I will tell anyone who will listen that Maura is a victim and that LE is not doing enough in finding my daughter who is a victim of a crime. So if LE finds her alive and well, they have found her just like I want them to, at least I "made" them look for her by "saying that she is a victim of a crime" .

So the way I am going to "force" LE to do their job and find my daughter is to tell everyone that will listen is that Maura is a victim and LE is just sitting back and do nothing to "solve" this crime and find her.

Most parents of missing adult children would" be "tickled" pink" and "extremely relieved" to be told that there is no evidence of foul play and it appears that their adult son/daughter has run away.

I would rather if I was a parent of a 'voluntary" missing adult child not assume that my child meet with a violent, painful, horrible, terror induced end to her life at the hands either of a stranger or strangers. I would not even consider "entertaining" this thought as it is just too horrible to consider without any evidence supporting same. Let alone lead the public to believe this.

If there is no evidence to the contrary, I would take the sitaution at face value and accept the fact that my adult child ran away and knows what they are doing and how to take care of themselves. After all I raised them to be a self sufficient adult.........

That is why Doc's theory makes perfect sense..........I included in my previous post that I always thought that it was 'odd" to assume foul play so shortly after Maura "ran away" and to put forth this "only theory of foul play" in the media when it is evident from behavior and evidence that this is clearly not the case.

Wasn't this the technique that the Federal Government used with the American people to "sell the Iraq War" and the invasion of Iraq. Manipulation, lies and propaganda, all in the "guise" of protecting the people from WMD. Which never did exist...........talk about a "con".

mocity
02-09-2006, 03:10 PM
I have been reading these posts and it makes me sad. Making points and having an adult discussion about what may or may not have happened is what people should be focused on and what others are interested in. As I read through these posts it sounds like everyone is just trying to outdue the other person on their posts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one here knows for sure what happened no matter what their "source" is. I am sure everyone here just wants to get Maura home so can't we stop with the bickering and move forward?

armywife210
02-09-2006, 03:36 PM
It wasn't until two days ago that I was even asked to speak for the family. I haven't lied or hidden information, I haven't really even posted since then until last night. That being said, let's move on and find her.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 04:46 PM
It wasn't until two days ago that I was even asked to speak for the family. I haven't lied or hidden information, I haven't really even posted since then until last night. That being said, let's move on and find her. I take your word for it. Thanks for clearing that up.

CyberLaw
02-09-2006, 04:48 PM
How about, if and when Maura wants to "re-surface", and/or contact her family or initiate contact in any way shape for form, we will then give Maura the choice if she wants to return home or not and if she wants "anything" to do with "her loved" ones.

Remember it is what Maura wants it is of no concern to anyone else.

I would be very surprised if anyone in the general public "just happens" to locate Maura.

I wonder if she had a Passport..........in the USA alone it would be akin to locating one gold nugget out of 300 million nuggets spread across the whole country.

Again, I have no doubt that Maura is of the school of thought: Out of site, out of mind when it comes to her "loved ones". They are part of her old life, and are not in her new life.......she left them behind.

So with no evidence as to where Maura may be or has been, with no new leads, with no evidence that Maura is a victim of foul play, where exactly are people going to look to "find her", especially if she does not want to be found and is taking measure to ensure that end is realized.

It is "rare" to actually find a "voluntary" missing person, they have left and started a new life..........and do not want to be found. Even the Runaway Bride, was not found, and her picture was 'all over" the TV. She had changed her look, she called LE. No one found her..........

So the chances of "finding Maura" without her wanting to be found, are slim to none.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 05:02 PM
How about, if and when Maura wants to "re-surface", and/or contact her family or initiate contact in any way shape for form, we will then give Maura the choice if she wants to return home or not and if she wants "anything" to do with "her loved" ones.

Remember it is what Maura wants, not what her family wants which is important here.

I would be very surprised if anyone in the general public "just happens" to locate Maura.

I wonder if she had a Passport..........in the USA alone it would be akin to locating one gold nugget out of 300 million nuggets spread across the whole country.

Again, I have no doubt that Maura is of the school of thought: Out of site, out of mind when it comes to her "loved ones". They are part of her old life, and are not in her new life....... You are absolutely right as to it being her choice and hers alone. It is also why I am no longer pursuing the willful leaving side of this case. I don't want to find her or cause her to be found if she left willfully as that would violate her privacy. I will still look in on this thread but I am moving along unless or until something indicates foul play. Thanks for reminding us that it's her choice to make.

You have demonstrated some keen insight in many parts of this case and I look forward to reading your posts on other cases as well.

armywife210
02-09-2006, 08:57 PM
I dont think that anyone will argue with that. However, lets keep in mind that the "facts" about her ditching her family and boyfriend are speculation. The "facts" about her packing up her room are speculation. "facts" about her drinking that day are speculation. With 280 dollars in an account, any amount of emergency money you take out to bring on a little trip would seem to be draining it. Many of the "facts" that have been stated are purely speculation by some and have no cooberation. Let's not make this out to be one big "fact". We would all love to find that to be true, but this theory is no more proven than foul play.

armywife210
02-09-2006, 11:09 PM
One extra little point: The Mauramurray.com website lists her stats this way:

I suppose that means she was 22 when she disappeared in case anyone wondered.Maura's birthday is May 4, 1982. At the time of her disappearance she was 21, just short of her 22nd birthday. Most likely when the particular missing fliers were made it was after her 22nd bday.

docwho3
02-09-2006, 11:16 PM
Maura's birthday is May 4, 1982. At the time of her disappearance she was 21, just short of her 22nd birthday. Most likely when the particular missing fliers were made it was after her 22nd bday.Could be or maybe someone just rounded up the age a few days. Either way its nice to know. I think what threw me was that many missing person sites have an "age at time of disappearance" so I got used to reading the age as that stat.

armywife210
02-09-2006, 11:19 PM
I don't want to get into some big ol brawl here, I just dont want to discount this as a runaway when we have no facts to cooberate it. We have atleast just as many facts to cooberate an abduction.

KatherineQ
02-10-2006, 12:05 AM
I dont think that anyone will argue with that. However, lets keep in mind that the "facts" about her ditching her family and boyfriend are speculation. The "facts" about her packing up her room are speculation. "facts" about her drinking that day are speculation. With 280 dollars in an account, any amount of emergency money you take out to bring on a little trip would seem to be draining it. Many of the "facts" that have been stated are purely speculation by some and have no cooberation. Let's not make this out to be one big "fact". We would all love to find that to be true, but this theory is no more proven than foul play.

ArmyWife - so she cleaned out her checking account completely? Did she have any other accounts that she left any money in?

KatherineQ
02-10-2006, 12:25 AM
Taking a fresh perspective on this.

Some things ARE speculation, like what her complete intent was - did she intend to run away for just a week, or for the rest of her life. What isn't speculation is whether she cleaned out her room - she did or she didn't, it's one or the other and her family and the police know which answer is correct. Yes or no. There's no speculation to it.

Looking at this, it seems more and more certain that she intended to leave forever, but that's only my perspective.

What is more important than what her intent was - whether it was to leave for just a week and then suddenly come back, or whether it was to start a new life elsewhere, is did she meet with foul play in that first couple days? Did she survive beyond the couple days after she wrecked the car into the snowbank and left with just a few things in a backpack?

That seems like that's the focus that everyone needs to be looking at, and put aside the different ways we view her intent.

I know several on the board believe an adult should have no responsibility to at least let their family know that they're leaving for good and don't ever want to be contacted again, but I don't feel that way. In the case of severe abuse, where the parents can be charged with a crime and imprisoned for their treatment of a family member, then okay. You can leave and don't say bye.

Otherwise, if you just leave and never let anyone know where you went, they waste their whole lives searching for you. That's just a stupid, unfair and cruel waste.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 12:41 AM
ArmyWife - so she cleaned out her checking account completely? Did she have any other accounts that she left any money in?
She didn't clean it out completely, no. There was no other account that anyone has ever known of. She was a full time student, she paid her own way. Her dad was helping her find new transportation but beyond that she took care of herself. She worked part time, but I cannot fathom it being much more than enough to pay for necessities.
After her boyfriend graduated from WP in 2002, he paid for every single trip for her to come see him. Before he graduated, his parents paid for every trip for her to come to Ohio with him to see them. She had no money, she was a poor college student like most other college students are.
I was in precisely the same situation before my husband and I were married. I was in Northern MN, he was stationed down here at Ft Sill. He paid for everthing because I was a poor college student.
She was frugal with her money because she didn't have much of it. However, I can see why she took 280 dollars (again she didnt completely clean it out, though she didn't have much more) with her for emergency purposes. She could always put it back in when she returned. She had a couple of credit cards as well. That was it.

docwho3
02-10-2006, 12:51 AM
. . .I know several on the board believe an adult should have no responsibility to at least let their family know that they're leaving for good and don't ever want to be contacted again, but I don't feel that way. In the case of severe abuse, where the parents can be charged with a crime and imprisoned for their treatment of a family member, then okay. You can leave and don't say bye.

Otherwise, if you just leave and never let anyone know where you went, they waste their whole lives searching for you. That's just a stupid, unfair and cruel waste. I agree with parts of what you said but I also believe an adult has the legal right to willfully leave. However, I wish we could get a law passed requiring them to fill out a paper at the local police office or sherrifs office so that once they left police could produce the paper and save everyone including L.E. so much wasted time and money.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 12:55 AM
Taking a fresh perspective on this.

Some things ARE speculation, like what her complete intent was - did she intend to run away for just a week, or for the rest of her life. What isn't speculation is whether she cleaned out her room - she did or she didn't, it's one or the other and her family and the police know which answer is correct. Yes or no. There's no speculation to it.

except for had she packed her belongings, or not unpacked them from Christmas Break. She had only been back a couple of weeks, both of those weekends were extremely busy for her. If it were me, I would just take things out as I was using them until I had time to completely unpack. Her boyfriends mom stated that often times she just unpacked as she needed things. If she took with her what was unpacked, what exactly had she packed? Those closest to her have stated that it didn't look packed to them.

Looking at this, it seems more and more certain that she intended to leave forever, but that's only my perspective.

That's the problem with so many speculating and stating it as truth if they don't know her habits. I am not saying that to be mean, but it is just fact.



What is more important than what her intent was - whether it was to leave for just a week and then suddenly come back, or whether it was to start a new life elsewhere, is did she meet with foul play in that first couple days? Did she survive beyond the couple days after she wrecked the car into the snowbank and left with just a few things in a backpack?

That seems like that's the focus that everyone needs to be looking at, and put aside the different ways we view her intent.

I know several on the board believe an adult should have no responsibility to at least let their family know that they're leaving for good and don't ever want to be contacted again, but I don't feel that way. In the case of severe abuse, where the parents can be charged with a crime and imprisoned for their treatment of a family member, then okay. You can leave and don't say bye.

There is no abuse. There is no controlling factor coming from any of them.

Otherwise, if you just leave and never let anyone know where you went, they waste their whole lives searching for you. That's just a stupid, unfair and cruel waste.And I completely agree with you. And I point out that this sort of behavior is in no way, shape, or form within her personality. She wrote to her grandma every week. She couldn't wait to be married to her boyfriend and have his children. She looked forward to being an Army Wife. Even at West Point there was no shady behavior.
I cannot tell you how badly I broke down when I was in school. It is just really stressful, especially when you are as serious about your grades as she was (and no her grades weren't falling) and the love of your life is in another state!.
Look at her father's face in his pictures. He has lost massive amounts of weight. He searches actively for his daughter. You can see the pain and agony. Maura loved her father completely. How could anyone say that she would cause that much pain? And her boyfriend.... he is not dominating at all. No one can even fathom what he is going through, two years after the love of his life disappeared. She loved people, she cared so deeply about everyone. She would never cause that kind of pain. She was free to make her own choices, she didn't need to run to do that.

docwho3
02-10-2006, 01:27 AM
. . . The "facts" about her packing up her room are speculation. . . Actually that was not speculation in the post. It was based on a news report quote made by one of the N.H. state police. You might think he was speculating but as far as I know you would yourself be speculating on that.


. . ."facts" about her drinking that day are speculation. . . I don't remember whether she was actually seen drinking but alcohol was involved in that it was with her when she had her wreck, according to News reports. Also I seem to remember reading that a cup of alcohol beverage was found at the scene of the accident but I would need to reread the reports to state that here as an absolute fact tonight. Also I believe one news report said one of the witnesses said she appeared to have been drinking. That does not make it a fact but neither is it rank speculation for someone here to post about drinking based on such a report.


. . .With 280 dollars in an account, any amount of emergency money you take out to bring on a little trip would seem to be draining it. . . If you have a certain amount in an account and you remove nearly all that money it is not unreasonable to say the account was nearly "drained" or "emptied". The fact that you interpret that to mean she only needed some money for her trip does not change the facts that the account was basically emptied.


. . .Many of the "facts" that have been stated are purely speculation by some and have no cooberation. . . When someone posts links to news reports citing the source for what they say, that does not make their post speculation. It is in fact an example of using the best most verifiable sources of info we have available.

gatetrekker44
02-10-2006, 01:28 AM
that were unfortunately lost when they were being merged/moved on this website.

1. That Maura had not one but TWO accidents within a relatively short period of time-and even if she didn't hit the windshield in either case, the whiplash action caused by a violent stop(s) and/or airbag deployment could cause some brain trauma-especially in someone who is 5'5" or less. Even if Atwood stated Maura seemed lucid at first glance, there is still a good possibility that she suffered a cumulative brain trauma akin to a concussion. The cracked windshield is one of the main reasons I continue to be thoroughly ticked off at the local LE for not immediately searching for her since the cracked windshield in and of itself is evidence that this person may have been seriously injured!

2. That if Maura had truly intended to "disappear" WHY would she contact an establishment that day about the availability of rooms-another lead that the Murray family themselves discovered and that LE TOTALLY missed?

3. The call to Bill Rausch-which he swears was Maura sounding scared-or possibly disoriented. I have never seen a reasonable explanation as to why this call could not be traced to a certain area-I mean, how many cell towers are there in that part of NH?

Finally-if what Cyberlaw states in post about this not being a criminal case-then WHY will LE and the courts NOT give Fred Murray the info they are withholding? If there is no crime, then they should be more than happy to give him their info so he can continue to investigate at his own expense. The fact that the info is being withheld is telling in that no matter how hard LE is pushing the "runaway" theory to the public, in private there must be something more...especially since Maura's effects were returned to her family and then requested back by LE FIVE MONTHS LATER for "forensic testing", which at that point would have been totally useless considering by that time how many people had handled them.

Bottom line-it just doesn't add up to a runaway scenario in my book!

petra
02-10-2006, 01:40 AM
can some one help me out here pls. i read the threads on her today and do not recall seeing anything about Maura being upset about her mom being ill. were her mom and dad together two yrs ago? was here mom sick then? thanks

petra
02-10-2006, 01:44 AM
did maura take "time out" for herself before? why would she feeel the need after just coming back from winter break- the second week of school to do so?

during winter break was she taking classes, working, was she home with family?

did maura live in a dorm- single room or have roomate?

what were the financial arrangements for school? did she get money from parents?

docwho3
02-10-2006, 01:59 AM
The only piece of evidence I have read to date that even implies a possible foul play outcome is
. . .Vaughn wrote. “Release of the records could jeopardize the investigation and lead to, among other things, destruction of evidence, intimidation of witnesses and loss of communications with entities providing confidential information.” . .
Note: I added the bolding.

Above that it had also said

. . .“(The state) maintain(s) that release of the records could result in the destruction of evidence, chilling and intimidation of witnesses and the revelation of the scope and nature of the investigation,” Vaughn wrote. . . . http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Dad+denied+access+to+records +on+daughter&articleId=aa79b4ba-1064-48d3-83ec-4d23727040df

armywife210
02-10-2006, 02:55 AM
Actually that was not speculation in the post. It was based on a news report quote made by one of the N.H. state police. You might think he was speculating but as far as I know you would yourself be speculating on that.
Well we all know that a complete stranger would have more of an idea about her habits than anyone else. To me, that is speculation on anyones part. And I certainly dont think that was ever stated to anyone as fact, but as how it appeared to the officer.

I don't remember whether she was actually seen drinking but alcohol was involved in that it was with her when she had her wreck, according to News reports. Also I seem to remember reading that a cup of alcohol beverage was found at the scene of the accident but I would need to reread the reports to state that here as an absolute fact tonight. Also I believe one news report said one of the witnesses said she appeared to have been drinking. That does not make it a fact but neither is it rank speculation for someone here to post about drinking based on such a report.

She was not seen drinking alcohol at all that day. She had a box of wine that was busted open at the scene. The impact could have just as easily done that.

If you have a certain amount in an account and you remove nearly all that money it is not unreasonable to say the account was nearly "drained" or "emptied". The fact that you interpret that to mean she only needed some money for her trip does not change the facts that the account was basically emptied.

I, myself, carry cash on me every time I go anywhere as a safe gaurd. Why not close it out if you aren't returning? Coverup, a big coverup.

When someone posts links to news reports citing the source for what they say, that does not make their post speculation. It is in fact an example of using the best most verifiable sources of info we have available.
Media... it most certainly doesn't make it gospel though, and most of it IS speculation on someones part. You can quote an officer as having said that it appeared anyway he thinks it appeared, but that doesn't make it fact.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 03:00 AM
that were unfortunately lost when they were being merged/moved on this website.

1. That Maura had not one but TWO accidents within a relatively short period of time-and even if she didn't hit the windshield in either case, the whiplash action caused by a violent stop(s) and/or airbag deployment could cause some brain trauma-especially in someone who is 5'5" or less. Even if Atwood stated Maura seemed lucid at first glance, there is still a good possibility that she suffered a cumulative brain trauma akin to a concussion. The cracked windshield is one of the main reasons I continue to be thoroughly ticked off at the local LE for not immediately searching for her since the cracked windshield in and of itself is evidence that this person may have been seriously injured!

Quite possible.

2. That if Maura had truly intended to "disappear" WHY would she contact an establishment that day about the availability of rooms-another lead that the Murray family themselves discovered and that LE TOTALLY missed?

Here here.

3. The call to Bill Rausch-which he swears was Maura sounding scared-or possibly disoriented. I have never seen a reasonable explanation as to why this call could not be traced to a certain area-I mean, how many cell towers are there in that part of NH?

The call to CPT Rausch (then LT Rausch) was not made from a cell phone, but from the same kind of phone card that his mother had given her a couple of months prior. They could not adequately trace that call to a particular place because they did not have the number and pin on the particular card in which the call was made with.

Finally-if what Cyberlaw states in post about this not being a criminal case-then WHY will LE and the courts NOT give Fred Murray the info they are withholding? If there is no crime, then they should be more than happy to give him their info so he can continue to investigate at his own expense. The fact that the info is being withheld is telling in that no matter how hard LE is pushing the "runaway" theory to the public, in private there must be something more...especially since Maura's effects were returned to her family and then requested back by LE FIVE MONTHS LATER for "forensic testing", which at that point would have been totally useless considering by that time how many people had handled them.

Good point.

Bottom line-it just doesn't add up to a runaway scenario in my book!
You have good points!

armywife210
02-10-2006, 03:02 AM
can some one help me out here pls. i read the threads on her today and do not recall seeing anything about Maura being upset about her mom being ill. were her mom and dad together two yrs ago? was here mom sick then? thanks
Hi Petra. Her mom wasn't ill when Maura disappeared. Her parents divorced long ago but Maura remained extremely close to her father and they spent massive amounts of time together right up until two days before she disappeared. She had a good relationship with her mom as well.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 03:11 AM
did maura take "time out" for herself before? why would she feeel the need after just coming back from winter break- the second week of school to do so?

during winter break was she taking classes, working, was she home with family?

did maura live in a dorm- single room or have roomate?

what were the financial arrangements for school? did she get money from parents?Maura was an extremely bright person. She had a full scholarship from the time she left West Point from what I understand. She also had two part time jobs, but even with that she still wouldn't have much money to survive on.
Her dad was helping her find a new car but I am not sure what the financial arrangements would have been. I could find out for you if you need me to.
She had a lot of good friends there and back home. Ofcourse, there was her boyfriend.
Her Christmas Vacation was far from that. She did a huge amount of travelling around to see everyone and just hearing about it makes me tired.
Maura liked to take charge of her own life, and her own problems. She had free reign to do so. She didn't like to worry other people. She had never really taken off to take time out before... but she had other ways that she dealt with stress.

CyberLaw
02-10-2006, 11:08 AM
A reporter is required to verify the "facts" he reports, so as not to spread gossip, libel and slander. So not to be sued also.

A paper can and will be sued. big time, if they cannot verify that the information they "printed" was "factual" and prove that it is based in fact and not a "figment" of someone's imagination.

Before a reporter prints a story, he will have to prove to his editior the "credible" sources and usually more then one source. The "facts" are required to be "stringently" verified. If there was an "innocent" mistake made, then of course a correction is issued.

So if it was reported that Maura "cleaned" out her 'bureau" and emptied all of her drawers of clothing and removed the artwork from the walls. Then that is a fact, not a myth.

I hope this clarifies the difference between "fact" and "fiction". Just because this "fact" does not fit in with the 'story put forth my the Murray family" and is disbelieved by the Murray family does not make it any less factual and true. They chosse to disbelief fact that do not support their "myth" so as to hold on to that "myth" then that is their choice.

I also recall at the time of the accident when LE came upon the "accident" scene that alcohol had been poured out in the snow right at the accident. This again was reported as fact.......based in fact and reality. Actually If I recall, the reporter was at the scene.

Please don't try my patience or intellegence with some "myth" and "speculation" about raccoons coming upon the cup and pouring it out in the snow, or a dog wondering the roads of New Hampshire taking the cup out of the car and then for reasons unknown pouring the "alcoholic beverage" out in the snow as to avoid LE. Please......

Why would LE be concerned about Fred Murray knowing whom these witness are and why also would they be concened about the "intimidation" of witness by Fred Murray et al.

Of course Fred Murray would disagree and "have problems" with anyone who reported to LE the facts supporting "running away from your "loved ones"" as opposed to the "fictional" theory of foul play put forth by the Murray family.

He may feel that he has to "advise" them to support his "myth" and question them as to what they reported to LE.

I find that very, very telling, as the Judge and LE seem to know first hand what Fred Murray is like and what he is capable of doing.

tuppence
02-10-2006, 11:25 AM
Cyberlaw - you are joking right? You've been here awhile and followed a lot of cases. The papers have printed statements in almost all cases I have seen that have later turned out to be false and I can't remember a single correction. In many cases there were comments made by the police that later turned out to be wrong. In most cases there turns out to be a lot of misinformation out there. Often much of it is innocent and sometimes the police is planting information. More often papers just get things wrong in their hurry to get a story printed.

Already in this case there have been several things the police have said (or the papers/media have said they said) that later turned out to be untrue(about the letters, call etc.) -




A reporter is required to verify the "facts" he reports, so as not to spread gossip, libel and slander. So not to be sued also.

A paper can and will be sued. big time, if they cannot verify that the information they "printed" was "factual" and prove that it is based in fact and not a "figment" of someone's imagination.

Before a reporter prints a story, he will have to prove to his editior the "credible" sources and usually more then one source. The "facts" are required to be "stringently" verified. If there was an "innocent" mistake made, then of course a correction is issued.

So if it was reported that Maura "cleaned" out her 'bureau" and emptied all of her drawers of clothing and removed the artwork from the walls. Then that is a fact, not a myth.

.

KatherineQ
02-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Cyber - I don't think there's any dispute all of Maura's things were in boxes, and the pictures were not on the walls.

I think the point of dispute is whether Maura had just not unpacked anything since returning from Christmas. The point of dispute is, had she packed up all her stuff to leave, or had she just not unpacked it in the weeks since she had returned.

To me, that's also telling, living out of boxes. No one is too busy to dump a box of clothing in a drawer, given a couple weeks time.

And it also points to no one had been in her dorm room in weeks who could help solve this fairly simple question -

Peabody
02-10-2006, 01:07 PM
Cyberlaw - you are joking right? You've been here awhile and followed a lot of cases. The papers have printed statements in almost all cases I have seen that have later turned out to be false and I can't remember a single correction. In many cases there were comments made by the police that later turned out to be wrong. In most cases there turns out to be a lot of misinformation out there. Often much of it is innocent and sometimes the police is planting information. More often papers just get things wrong in their hurry to get a story printed.

Already in this case there have been several things the police have said (or the papers/media have said they said) that later turned out to be untrue(about the letters, call etc.) -Tuppence,

Well said about the "state of affairs" as to media reports, not only in Maura's case but in most.

Steve Huff, a most highly respected blogger and mystery solver, wrote these words:

Published Thursday, January 05, 2006 by Steve Huff.
The Harvey Family Murders... Rumors, Revenge...
Rumors. Damned lies and rumors. I can't think of a crime that has been covered in this weblog in the past year that didn't have a plethora of rumors swirling all around it -- frequently even after trials are over and bad people locked away.

<snip>

the mainstream media, with that story, Tuesday night, did precisely the thing many mainstream journalists constantly lambaste bloggers for doing. They reported rumor as if it were fact.

More at Link: http://darksidesteve.blogspot.com/

Truly, only those who knew Maura well know about her; and many questions regarding her missing are only known by Maura: ie why and where and for how long did she plan to be gone.

IF she has been harmed, the key to that question is held by the person(s) involved.

Sadly, because LE chose not to look for signs of foul play in Maura's case, IF there is foul play, it most likely will not be determined unless someone comes forward (because LE saw no evidence at the scene where Maura vanished, they said "no foul play" instead of questioning neighbors and looking for evidence until it is probably too late; however in the case of Brooke Wilburger, the only evidence of foul play, aside from her absence, was her remaing sandals; there would be some websleuthers and LE that would say that was not evidence of foul play, only the remainder of a sensible decision to wash lamp posts in warm weather without ones shoes - thankfully for the Wilburger family, LE chose to interpret Brooke's absence as evidence of foul play.)


With special prayers for Maura and her loved ones at this difficult time - 2 years to the day that they learned of her missing.


.

KatherineQ
02-10-2006, 01:16 PM
Peabody, I think sometimes people are too close to the situation to see it clearly.

Like with Olga Khaleel, who ran off from her husband a couple weeks ago. He couldn't see it, he honestly couldn't see that she probably left, but everyone at a distance could see it, who didn't know her, and just had the benefit of reading newspaper articles. They could see it. He couldn't.

It seems like people can be too close to the person missing to have real perspective, and look at real facts.

No one thinks that of Brooke Wilburger, and no one ever thought that. Those close to her, those reading about her, no one thought she just up and decided to leave everyone behind. THe clues and the facts weren't there, and the personality wasn't there.

With Maura, all the clues that you can see from the distance of a stranger point clearly to her leaving on purpose. Prayers for her return.

Peabody
02-10-2006, 01:48 PM
Peabody, I think sometimes people are too close to the situation to see it clearly.

Like with Olga Khaleel, who ran off from her husband a couple weeks ago. He couldn't see it, he honestly couldn't see that she probably left, but everyone at a distance could see it, who didn't know her, and just had the benefit of reading newspaper articles. They could see it. He couldn't.

It seems like people can be too close to the person missing to have real perspective, and look at real facts.

No one thinks that of Brooke Wilburger, and no one ever thought that. Those close to her, those reading about her, no one thought she just up and decided to leave everyone behind. THe clues and the facts weren't there, and the personality wasn't there.

With Maura, all the clues that you can see from the distance of a stranger point clearly to her leaving on purpose. Prayers for her return.
Thanks KatherineQ -


But Not ONE person who knows Maura believes that her personality in any way conforms to running away or commiting suicide. None of her family, not her fiance or his family, none of her life long friends from childhood, not her few friends at UMass.

That is why I referenced Steve Huff's article: there are so many printed rumors and mis-statements in Maura's case. Combined with the little factual knowledge and the truly many unanswered questions, her case is a deep mystery. It is a deeper mystery for strangers - they do not have the benefit of facts.

For Maura to have run away, she would have needed to get away from both family and fiance. I don't know if it was in print, but I know the fiance said he could understand Maura falling out of love with him, but he could never understand her leaving her family. And after all of this time, there is no evidence to support that she had another relationship with any other man; therefore, it seems difficult to believe that she could not have ended ONE relationship, ie fiance or family, and kept the other, and living somewhere with people that she knows and enjoying life with being loved and supported in return. Has it crossed your mind, how difficult it would be for anyone to start a new life without the benefit of companionship as well as financial resources? Could not be easy at any time in life, especially at 21, when one is so vibrant and passionate about life.

The police did not have the benefit of any clues about Maura when they announced to the family that she was a runaway and suicidal other than their deducement from the alcohol and across the counter medications left in her car. This is Fact - this is what they told the family on the evening of 2/11. It took a few days for them to learn of the email about "the death in the family" and to tie in the "Without Peril" book.

Also, RC Stevens, a highly respected pi, retired from MA SP who worked the Molly Bish case worked with the Murrays in the beginning. He was privy to most of the case information and it was his determination that foul play was involved.

The current group of private investigators also believe that foul play is the most likely cause for her missing.

Therefore, it seems unlikely to me, that the "distance of strangers" that sees clues pointing to Maura's running away is is more reliable than those who are close to the situation. It is my opinion that many read the rumors and theories and accept them as fact.

I would like to add that I know for certain that the family hopes with all of their heart that Maura is indeed a runaway.......why would anyone think they want otherwise?

I have determined that the reason my blood boils over regarding posts in support of her running away is that the majority of them end with the conclusion that everyone must stop searching for her. IF she wants to live a new life, fine. But, in addition to the heartache created by her missing, Maura should not, nor anyone that is deliberately missing, be allowed to cost the taxpayers as well as to instill fear in the hearts of those citizens living in the area of the disappearance. I have heard from citizens in NH who believe there is likely a serial killer and that the police are either not concerned or can not catch him.

KatherineQ
02-10-2006, 02:03 PM
Peabody - I do think foul play was involved, and I don't think people should stop searching for her.

I also think at some point LE should be compelled to turn over what they know to the family, so they can make the best of whatever information is available. There seem to be so many in her circle who are being robbed of a normal life because they are dedicating their waking hours to worrying what happened to her, when LE knows critical information. That just seems wrong.

I've been depressed in my life several times, never so severely I had to be medicated, but no one ever would have guessed. No one. I carry on cheerfully, and except for taking stupid risks and sleeping too much and eating too little and pacing, no one would ever have had any idea I was depressed. I'm a stiff upper lip kind of person who would be very ashamed to say I'm sad, I'm depressed, I'm weak, I need help. I don't do that and I have kind of a disgust for people who DO do that. Even though that's irrational. ;D

Anyway, from the heart, Peabody it looks to me like her intent was to drive to her favorite place in the world, and rent a bed and breakfast room for the weekend and drink herself to death. And she wrote the professors to tell them she'd be back in a week just in case . . in case she chickened out, she'd still be able to come back. That's what I think happened.

And then, while she was trying to execute the plan something awful and unplanned happened to her.

I hope I haven't overstepped. I just think so often family is COMPLETELY surprised by suicides, no one knew the person was depressed, and then it happens. And they never knew. But the signs were there, they just didn't pick up on it because the person always acted cheerful and didn't complain.

docwho3
02-10-2006, 02:51 PM
Well we all know that a complete stranger would have more of an idea about her habits than anyone else. To me, that is speculation on anyones part. And I certainly dont think that was ever stated to anyone as fact, but as how it appeared to the officer. . . What a reasonable person can do is expect that if the state police investigate and make a pronouncement that they didnt just walk in and make assumptions but instead they investigate and ask question such as asking those other students if Maura had always kept her room like that or if she had ever unpacked. Maybe in some circles it is popular to act as if all L.E. are just keystone Cops from the old comedy movies but in actuality that is almost always far from the truth especially in the case of state police and up.



. . .
I, myself, carry cash on me every time I go anywhere as a safe gaurd. Why not close it out if you aren't returning? Coverup, a big coverup. . .
Cover up? Ummm what are you talking about? Have you had your morning coffee? . . and was it decaf?



Media... it most certainly doesn't make it gospel though, and most of it IS speculation on someones part. You can quote an officer as having said that it appeared anyway he thinks it appeared, but that doesn't make it fact. No news reports aren't gospel but when you call a post pure speculation when it goes to the trouble to cite a news source that is incorrect and attacks the honesty and credibility of the posting person. If you believe that a news report was wrong you should say that you believe the news report itself was wrong.

Having said all that, one thing about this case is that any one part of it taken by itself might seem to be an innocent action but in the totality all the pieces of the puzzle that have been released to the public seem to give at least a strong picture of likelihood that Maura willfully left.

For instance: I might read a book and happen to mark a chapter and that seems innocent enough by itself.

Then you learn the book chapter I marked was one about choices that determine whether you live or die. Hmm still nothing really wrong with that by itself either.

But then you learn that the book mark I used was a pic of my younger brother and a halmark card. Oh Oh it is beginning to sound like I am planning to do away with myself. Still there is a certain amount of doubt about that. Maybe it is all coincidence.

Now you learn that I nearly cleaned out my bank account. That is innocent by itself but in conjunction with the book info it would make anyone concerned.

You learn that I had received a phone call that brought me to tears and in fact required me to be escorted home from work. Anyone can receive a phone call and be upset right? But if you take my being upset with all the other info you might get worried about my state of mind.

Now you add in that I lied to my boss at work and gave a false reason to be missing a few days. Not a terribly evil or dangerous fact by itself but combined with all the other facts it begins to form a picture of probability in the mind of the reasonable person.

Now you add in that I bought a significant quantity of alcohol. Nothing so bad about that by itself but taken with the other facts it might be worrisome.

Now you learn that I bought some tylenol when I bought the alcohol. Tylenol is not bad to purchase by itself and not necessarily wrong to purchase at the same time you purchase alcohol, but don't be surprised if the clerk looks at you funny since it is known to be used in suicide attempts. But this fact taken in conjunction with all the other facts might be very worrisome to an observer.

Now you back up and at the top of this list of facts add that I went missing and that you uncovered this chain of facts in your reading of news reports of the investigation.
*************
I could go on and on but I think you should by now get the point. This case has been full of things that, although innocent enough in single separate doses, taken together would be a huge red flag in the mind of anyone looking into the case. In Maura's case all those things and several more besides came together all in one case.

When you or others belittle the posts of those of us that looked at that amazing chain of facts and then you dare to say it is all rank speculation with no corroborating facts you should not be shocked to find that we take that amiss. The facts are that, yes, we have news reports and nothing else to go on but we didn't make up those news reports and calling a post pure "speculation with out corroborating facts" implies that the facts were made up from whole cloth. The facts and news reports exist and we (most of us) provide links so that you can go read for yourself. But what did you think those on this forum had to work with, a crystal ball?
****************
On to another point: It seems that people often assume that someone looking at this case has to choose one view or the other and that isn't really true. For me, my understanding is always subject to revision as facts surface. And I have always realized that several possibilities were never completely ruled out in this case. Thats why in my original postings of my own theory included the possibilities of Maura's death and pointed out some things that needed looking into. It is also why I have since posted some of those things again.

When I did that workup on the case and posted it I was, at first, looking for some way to explain the mysterious facts as they were reported, including what she took or did not take with her when she left. Once I felt I had explained how she got to the point of the wreck and a possible way she disappeared I came to the realization that I still did not know for sure whether she was alive or not. Just because I felt there was probably a helper who had picked her up did not rule out that the helper might have decided to do her harm.

But I noticed that since so many people were so desperately trying to defend against any thought that Maura might have left on her own they were in danger of totally ruling out the possibility of her having the helper and that might mean a killer,if one existed, might escape.

So why do I say in posts that Maura is most likely alive according to the evidence made public so far? Because so far there is no evidence that she is not alive. . no blood traces, no sightings made public of her being abducted, no security camera footage showing her being with someone when she made her purchases when she started out on her trip, no one using her credit card or her possessions but that does not mean that I think it impossible for such information to surface. I am just being conservative and careful in saying, that unless or until such info does in fact surface the L.E. stats on such cases say that she is likely alive and a willful runaway.

I think that until we have more evidence made public I can't justify saying more than that. To date I know of a few things in the case that make it possible for foul play to have happened and I have posted some of them.

But saying that there was an opportunity for someone to have acted does not make it so. Without tangible evidence that something of foul play was done I fall back to the most conservative outcome, one that has precedent and is supported by stats as a probable outcome. As I said when I posted the original theory, in the absence of evidence to go on I play the odds as supported by real stats of cases because until we have more evidence to go on thats all we can do. And the public facts as currently known do not yet contradict that. I stand ready to believe she is dead when evidence comes forth to indicate that. I am not married to the current theory.

So Maura may be alive, or she may be dead. I can't jump up and shout that she is dead if I have nothing to back that up. One thing that should encourage you as to her being dead is that, in the denial of Fred's case, the wording from the judge made it sound as if this case is being pursued as a criminal case with people providing confidential information to L.E. abut that case. If that is true perhaps Maura's killer and her remains will someday be recovered.

Until that day of new evidence coming forth I have to be careful not to possibly help breach someones right to privacy whether I think they should have left a note or not.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 04:38 PM
Ok, the "coverup" that I referred to was that darn sarcasm of mine.
I would like to point out that I have never said that any one individual is responsible for anything. Though I do find questions regarding actions. As far as anything I have said regarding the police, I recant. While I find conflicting statements made, I do not believe that any of them had anything to do with her disappearance, though I do think things have been done differently. Hindsight is 20/20, though I do think at some point that one should fix his earlier mistakes.
Just please understand that I will state facts from the point of view of those closest to her, and point out inconsistencies made by the very people who you are basing your evidence on.
That being said, let's drop the gloves, exit the ring, and get back to what is important. I fear that this has gone on too long and is hindering the outcome.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 04:42 PM
Cyberlaw - you are joking right? -
I was about to ask the same thing

nnglas
02-10-2006, 04:46 PM
I am wondering if someone can help me with a question. The point of whether Maura's room was packed, or not unpacked. I saw reports that the pictures were taken down from her walls. I don't understand, if she had just went on break and visiting people prior to her disappearance why would she take the pictures off the walls if she was returning after the holidays. Did she perhaps change rooms from the time that she was visiting family members and came back? Or is it that the reports speculate that she never unpacked anything from the time she moved in the room? I am asking because the reports say pictures were removed from the walls. So is there evidence that she ever put them up?

armywife210
02-10-2006, 04:48 PM
To me, that's also telling, living out of boxes. No one is too busy to dump a box of clothing in a drawer, given a couple weeks time.
-
The problem with that is that Maura was a neat person. If I dont have time to completely unpack, I save the unpacking until I do. The fact is that no one had been around for weeks, the dorms were closed because of Christmas break. When they opned back up she didn't have time to unpack completely, so many would opt to wait until they did.
Also we have to take into account that many dorms have policies about anything that is not taken with them for breaks must be boxed up and placed on beds, this includes when they will be gone for a few days, in order for standard housecleaning to come in to vaccuum. I dont know if this is the way it worked at her dorm, but it was in my dorms!

czechmate7
02-10-2006, 05:57 PM
:twocents:
I have been following Maura’s thread for a while and take in everyone’s "ideas" about what they think happened to Maura.

Docwho...well said. I too believe Maura has decided to voluntarily disappear from the facts that I've read.

I was just wondering if Armywife knew Maura because the way she post it sounds like they go way back. Just because your husband went to the same school as Maura and Cpt Rausch that doesn't give you more "insight" on how Maura felt, handled her problems,etc....

I also agree with a point Katherine has made; sometimes you don't truly know a person unless you are inside of their mind. The outside could be simply a charade.

And one more thing...Armywife, you have made several comments about how YOU have handled different situations that Maura had been in; but you need to realize that people handle situations differently; just because you handled them without breaking down doesn't mean Maura was able to.

mocity
02-10-2006, 06:01 PM
This whole thread is really annoying. I know I should just stop reading it. I hope Maura's family doesn't read it. Everyone is so staunchly acting like their view is the right one. No one knows for sure here. At least the ones thinking she was a victim of foul play seems to be listening to the others points of view. The ones that think she ran away seem to just think they are right. No one here knows. I would tend to think the people that have some sort of relationship or connection with her would know better than others that have no idea of the person she was. AND why wouldn't you place some credit with her family. I am pretty sure her Dad knows the kind of person she was better than any of us. This whole thing is annoying and non-productive.

Masterj
02-10-2006, 06:04 PM
This whole thread is really annoying. I know I should just stop reading it. I hope Maura's family doesn't read it. Everyone is so staunchly acting like their view is the right one. No one knows for sure here. At least the ones thinking she was a victim of foul play seems to be listening to the others points of view. The ones that think she ran away seem to just think they are right. No one here knows. I would tend to think the people that have some sort of relationship or connection with her would know better than others that have no idea of the person she was. AND why wouldn't you place some credit with her family. I am pretty sure her Dad knows the kind of person she was better than any of us. This whole thing is annoying and non-productive.
I agree.

docwho3
02-10-2006, 07:08 PM
As to Maura's dorm room having been repacked or just never unpacked:
It might prove helpful for some to read posts 186 to 195 in Maura Murray Part 2-merged
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26673&page=3&pp=40

In summary, we really don't know for sure. Only L.E. and her boyfriend were ever in the room after she left while her things were still there so far as I am aware. L.E. has been quoted in news reports with their version and thats what I personally am working with so far, but we don't have any way to verify how the State Police investigators came to that conclusion to prove them as being right or wrong.

Note to newcomers:Getting up to speed:
I recommend newcomers read the whole thread of Maura Murray Part 2-merged
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26673&page=1&pp=40

It may take a long time but there is a wealth of info there.

docwho3
02-10-2006, 07:38 PM
This whole thread is really annoying. I know I should just stop reading it. I hope Maura's family doesn't read it. Everyone is so staunchly acting like their view is the right one. No one knows for sure here. At least the ones thinking she was a victim of foul play seems to be listening to the others points of view. The ones that think she ran away seem to just think they are right. No one here knows. I would tend to think the people that have some sort of relationship or connection with her would know better than others that have no idea of the person she was. AND why wouldn't you place some credit with her family. I am pretty sure her Dad knows the kind of person she was better than any of us. This whole thing is annoying and non-productive.More than one of us has taken the time to explain why some of us don't take family assessment that a missing person would "never runaway" as an absolute fact. They even provided examples of parents and family being wrong in thinking their loved one would "never do that" and yet you post asking why we don't. That sounds like your mind is just made up, end of story.

Ok, that's your right. No one is calling you a name over it or telling you you can't post. And since I now see you have your mind made up I probably won't even bother responding to any of your similar posts in future.

As to the disagreements that seem annoying to you: People do disagree and this thread includes case discussion. It is in the nature of things we won't all always agree on things. At least no one is being called names here and people get to post their points about the case. I might disagree with some posters very much but there isn't anyone yet that I would,if I could, push a button and ban them from posting. I might agree with others very much but I would not want only those to be posting either. The world needs diverse thoughts.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 08:13 PM
:twocents:
I have been following Maura’s thread for a while and take in everyone’s "ideas" about what they think happened to Maura.

Docwho...well said. I too believe Maura has decided to voluntarily disappear from the facts that I've read.

I was just wondering if Armywife knew Maura because the way she post it sounds like they go way back. Just because your husband went to the same school as Maura and Cpt Rausch that doesn't give you more "insight" on how Maura felt, handled her problems,etc....

I have recently been asked to speak for her family and friends as they are just worn out and hurt by the light she has been put in by some. My answers have come from those closest to her. I have stated that before, and before an attack is launched, perhaps the past few days posts should be read.
I never knew her, but I was also asked to state what I know as fact as far as WP is concerned. When I dont know I ask my husband and the many others I know that graduated from there and that opted to transfer from there that I know very well, some of whom knew Maura well.

I also agree with a point Katherine has made; sometimes you don't truly know a person unless you are inside of their mind. The outside could be simply a charade.

I am sure a complete stranger who only has news reports to rely on would have some better view???

And one more thing...Armywife, you have made several comments about how YOU have handled different situations that Maura had been in; but you need to realize that people handle situations differently; just because you handled them without breaking down doesn't mean Maura was able to.This is precisely what I am saying. I am pointing out that while some view her actions suspicious, others who know her don't.

docwho3
02-10-2006, 08:15 PM
Ok, the "coverup" that I referred to was that darn sarcasm of mine.
I would like to point out that I have never said that any one individual is responsible for anything. Though I do find questions regarding actions. As far as anything I have said regarding the police, I recant. While I find conflicting statements made, I do not believe that any of them had anything to do with her disappearance, though I do think things have been done differently. Hindsight is 20/20, though I do think at some point that one should fix his earlier mistakes.
Just please understand that I will state facts from the point of view of those closest to her, and point out inconsistencies made by the very people who you are basing your evidence on.
That being said, let's drop the gloves, exit the ring, and get back to what is important. I fear that this has gone on too long and is hindering the outcome. Let me try one last time: I too don't have any desire to agrue with you just for the sake of argument and I hope you feel the same. I think part of the problem was that when I wanted to also reach out to connect in freindship I was at the same time responding to points made about the case and I think that muddled things a bit.

First, I am not against looking into possibilities that could end in the conclusion of a dead Maura. However, I do think that one might overlook a possible line of investigation leading to the perp if you overlook that she might have been running away and had a helper.

To help support your ideas I previously have posted some things I think bear looking into. If I only wanted my own ideas looked at I would never have done that for you. I loose nothing by supporting your looking into the possibility of Maura having been the victem of foul play. The truth is the truth so if she was the victem of foul play it will come out in time and if she is alive somewhere there is always the hope that someday a healing will take place between Maura and her family.

However I reserve the right to post a disagreement about a case point. Just know that when I do so I am not your mortal enemy and I desire no hostility between us.

Instead of trying to prove what she was or wasn't capable of, maybe we need to be looking for any possible combo of facts that could lead to her having been a victem of foul play. It does not hurt to look for such evidence. If evidence isn't there to find we won't find it, but if it is then maybe it will be found. I am already familiar with the case discussion on the Mauramurray.com thread up to & including page 98 & will soon read more.

If I think of anything not already discussed either there or here, that I think might interest you I will certainly post it.

armywife210
02-10-2006, 08:28 PM
That being said Docwho, I declare a truce...
I hope cyberlaw is down with that too.
I hope and pray that she is alive and well, we all do.
I will defend what I know is true to be in Mauras character though as without knowing her habits we really have no hope in finding truth. Same with the way WP works, I also know cadets who are now officers that served on the honor board during that time so I am privy to some information in that light.

petra
02-10-2006, 09:17 PM
That being said Docwho, I declare a truce...
I hope cyberlaw is down with that too.
I hope and pray that she is alive and well, we all do.
I will defend what I know is true to be in Mauras character though as without knowing her habits we really have no hope in finding truth. Same with the way WP works, I also know cadets who are now officers that served on the honor board during that time so I am privy to some information in that light.
After reading a post by Peabody last week asking for people to continue posting on Maura's board, I spent hours reading all the threads and posts. I did this in good faith, feeling that input was truly wanted and also to keep Maura@s case in the forefront. My first post on this board was yesterday.

I found most of the input very helpful towards different ways of looking at this scenario. I appreciated the time and thought many posters gave to this case.

As a parent of a 20 yr old student at unni in Boston, and an 18 yr old son in boarding school in Sweden... I was interested in how this could come about.

I have to say, I am very leery of posting anything here for fear of being shot down or tricked by other posters with an invested interest or agendas.

It is so sad because the focus should be Maura...

I have a hard time seeing that true opinion and input is wanted on this or any of other Maura's threads. That is probably why posters shy away.

docwho3
02-11-2006, 06:21 AM
. . .Docwho...well said. I too believe Maura has decided to voluntarily disappear from the facts that I've read. . . .Please forgive my not stopping sooner to say Thank You for the kind words. I appreciate your comments.

petra
02-11-2006, 07:26 AM
AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.

very impressed by thoughts and analysis by doc, katherine, chez and several other posters...i have learned alot about human nature, once again and as a parent and person it only reinforces my believe in staying open minded to all possibilities of behavior.

thank you.

May Maura's family and friends get the answers they seek. I truly wish them the best.

michelle
02-11-2006, 07:48 AM
I have watched a few things on tv about maura but i really dont know much about the case. I need to read the whole threads, i am too lazy right now to do it though. This case is quite fascinating, i must say though. My first thought when i heard about this was that maybe someone impersonating a cop took her, these things happen alot. Its scary. I wish she would be safe somewhere i feel horrible for her poor father and family.

hydemi
02-11-2006, 11:56 AM
You have been able to help us on this site with posts based on personal knowledge and connection to the family, which I have always accepted.

Yesterday you said that RC Stevens the PI originally hired by the Murrays in 2004 as well as the current PI team "determined" that foul play was involved or that foul play was the "most likely" cause of Maura' disappearance.

Are you holding something back which can be discussed?

I have never questioned the statements of belief by the family & Maura's friends after about a week of searching for her had passed two years ago that her being missing and not having contacted them since Feb. 9 (or 2/11 if she was the caller to Lt Rausch) were in and of themselves strong indications if not evidence that Maura had been harmed or abducted.

And I totally respect Lt Rausch for saying that he can understand why Maura might have chosen to break up with him but not why she would break off all contact or relations with her family.

But your statements about the PI team and RC Stevens seem to hint at some deeper knowledge of facts or suspects than the rest of us have access to.

CyberLaw
02-11-2006, 01:10 PM
You know Doc, I am still in "awe" of your posts. I especially liked when you said you were not "married" to a particular idea, considering what evidence may prevail.

Of course I am open to new evidence in this case that may "sway" my opinion also, but none yet has been forthcoming.

I am awaiting further developments in this case.....hopefully to a positive resolution.

ArmyWife: Truce? Why don't we just agree to disagree......to be reasonable. After all we are "neighbours".........

When I read this, Maura came to mind for some reason. For those of you who may think that I have an "alt.motive", for the post , I was reseaching information regarding "different personalities", "control and power" "family members"

From: http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Personality_Disorders/Site/Transcripts/narcissism.htm

I allowed my father much control over my life. I'm thirty-eight now and realize his narcissism. How do I limit his control without disowning him? Is it too late?

Dr. Vaknin: It is never too late to set oneself free. But liberty always has a price. Sometimes you can make peace with your oppressors, sometimes you can't, and YOU have to let go. It is a tango - you are BOTH engaged in this macabre dance. Stop the music. Set boundaries. Declare independence. Legislate. Fight for your rights. And if he persists, say goodbye.

If the "opressor" does not give up their "perceived" and "demonstrated" power and control over your life, you have to "save yourself", because the opressor is not going to save you from him.

After all a person may think and "feel" they have power and control over someone as they "feel or think" they are your "superior" (as in being the parent)" or have "authority" over you as in you are the child.

When that child is not a child anymore, and the "opressor" still feels a need for power and control over the adult child, problems arise.

The "opressor" sees nothing wrong with his behavior.........which is his personality.

All through your childhood you were dependent on your parents, but now you are not dependent, now you can take care of yourself, you are now an adult.

It may take years to get to the point of "escaping", but once you are an adult, the thought crosses your mind as to how to "escape" from this unhappy situation.

You can't speak up, they won't listen, or if you do, they look at your like "you should know your place" or "what is your problem".

You become depressed because you cannot express your anger, so you turn your anger inwards............you are forced to accept that this situation is not going to change for the better at least. That makes you angry, as you are left helpless with no choice.

The "family" members refuse to listen to you, you are unhappy, anytime you try to "exert your independence" you are shot down in a flash. You learn not to do that....or suffer the reprecussions. You keep thing to yourself. You keep secrets.

You don't want to run, but there is just no other choice. Trust me when I say" until you have walked" in "their shoes".........

You either "admit" defeat and nothing is going to change, or you walk.

Black or White, the family does not recognize any shades of grey.

Loyalty to the family plays no part in your decision, as loyalty would have to be put above your happiness for the rest of your life,

I strongly am of the opinion that Maura was not "free" totally without any "personal contraints" until that day in Mass when she packed her car and left.

She made that decision, on her own for herself. She was asserting her final act of absolute independence.

Maura may have been able to make "minor" decisions of no consequence, but when it came to other "major' life decision she was not free to do so as she wished.

But LE is still "hedging" their bets and keeping all options open, because you never know with one piece of evidence, cases and investigation turn on a dime. But I do not agree that evidence of foul play is forthcoming.

I think once she left and settled down from the "trauma" of escaping, that she now realized that she is the "master" of her own destiny, has her life to look forward to, without anyone "opressing" her and she can be happy. No one will tell Maura what to do, no on will make her feel that she is not in control of her own life.

I do feel that Maura came across or had "conversations" with people that told her that she does not have to live her life this way under her "opressors" thumb, that she is an adult, that she had choices. That gave her the encouragment to "live her own life".

When a peson has a sence of "new found" freedom, they want to enjoy it and experience it..

Maybe she picked up the alcohol to celebrate, in addition to "calming her nerves" because of the decision she just made, as there was no turning back, she was on the road......

Just a thought........

.

armywife210
02-11-2006, 04:09 PM
AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.


May Maura's family and friends get the answers they seek. I truly wish them the best.
[QUOTE=petra]AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.
QUOTE]

I have, in no way misrepresented myself. I have told everyone the truth about myself from the getgo as it happened. I have not betrayed anyone.

When I first came into the Maura case I had no idea of anything other than the fact that she went to WP, her boyfriend graduated from WP in 2002 (my husband graduated in 99 so I wouldnt guess that he knew him from WP. I know a lot of people that went to WP but I had no reason to go poking around), and at one point he was stationed in Oklahoma... I assumed that at one point he was at Ft Sill but I had no idea he was still here (or that if he was, my husband would even know him). My husband has been stationed here at Ft Sill since 1999 except for Aug of 2003 to Aug 2004 when he was stationed in Korea. During that time I went home to MN to be with my family. We came back here in Aug of 04, my husband was assigned to 75th brigade headquarters. I know a lot of the people tha my husband works with however I had no idea that he knew CPT Rausch because it wasn't until the past few months that my husband even knew him. He didn't work with him until that point because CPT Rausches unit was not attached to 75th Brigade until recently. In fact, formally they arent even attached yet but because they will be within the next couple of months my husband has been working with him. My husbands job is to handle finances and budget for the entire brigade. CPT Rausch's job is to do the same, but for his battalion. Because of the recent attachment, he has recently began reporting to my husband.
I dont know if that is part of the problem in this betrayal or not, as you havent elaborated... until recently, sometime last week I think, I had no idea that my husband even knew him.

I began emailing certain members of the family to offer my prayers before I found out the connection between my husband and CPT Rausch. Other people figured it out before I did. I think a lot of trust was gained through those closest to Maura because of who my husband is, and the kind of man and officer that he is. It wasn't until just a few days ago that I was asked to represent them on this site. When I did begin representing them I was forthcoming about it. In no way did I try to do some sort of shady cover to get the inside scoop or something. What would be the point of that?
Whether or not you believe me, or anyone else does, really doesn't make a difference to me because I know what my goal and purpose is, I know the truth about my honesty. I was taught from a young age that really nothing else matters. Stay true to yourself and God and beyond that it's all soap opera. However for certain people to sling mud around in here to put me in a negative light certainly doesn't do justice for Maura and her family.

So really, please, let's put emphasis on what's important rather than seeing what color the mud in different parts of the country will make me when it makes contact.

docwho3
02-11-2006, 06:48 PM
AW..just have to say i feel quite betrayed.
i am very disappointed in how you first presented your self.
i must say i am a sucker and will certainly be more aware in the future.
......must say i forgot about that honor system and how that works.

very impressed by thoughts and analysis by doc, katherine, chez and several other posters...i have learned alot about human nature, once again and as a parent and person it only reinforces my believe in staying open minded to all possibilities of behavior.

thank you.

May Maura's family and friends get the answers they seek. I truly wish them the best. Thank you for the kind words. I look forward to your posts.

docwho3
02-11-2006, 07:29 PM
You know Doc, I am still in "awe" of your posts. I especially liked when you said you were not "married" to a particular idea, considering what evidence may prevail.

Of course I am open to new evidence in this case that may "sway" my opinion also, but none yet has been forthcoming.

I am awaiting further developments in this case.....hopefully to a positive resolution. . .Thank You for the kind words. I found your source link, the article piece, and your insights very interesting (and educational as well.) Thank you for posting them. I had not thought of any possible celebratory angle of the alcohol. Thank you again for your thoughts.

docwho3
02-11-2006, 07:50 PM
. . .maybe someone impersonating a cop took her, these things happen alot. . . I agree with you that it is a thing that should not be overlooked as a possibility and I believe that L.E. would look into that and I would bet they already have since that possibility has been posted on websites for some time now including this site and the mauramurray.com boards.
Still, I would not be a bit sad to see more attention given to that angle of the case just to be sure nothing has been overlooked.

Peabody
02-11-2006, 10:43 PM
You have been able to help us on this site with posts based on personal knowledge and connection to the family, which I have always accepted.

Yesterday you said that RC Stevens the PI originally hired by the Murrays in 2004 as well as the current PI team "determined" that foul play was involved or that foul play was the "most likely" cause of Maura' disappearance.

Are you holding something back which can be discussed?

I have never questioned the statements of belief by the family & Maura's friends after about a week of searching for her had passed two years ago that her being missing and not having contacted them since Feb. 9 (or 2/11 if she was the caller to Lt Rausch) were in and of themselves strong indications if not evidence that Maura had been harmed or abducted.

And I totally respect Lt Rausch for saying that he can understand why Maura might have chosen to break up with him but not why she would break off all contact or relations with her family.

But your statements about the PI team and RC Stevens seem to hint at some deeper knowledge of facts or suspects than the rest of us have access to.

No, I do not believe they have any deeper knowledge than has been shared publicly. Or If they do, I am not aware of it.

When I said that RC Stevens "determined", I should have said "deduced". His decuction that Maura was harmed was based on his many years in law enforcement combined with the personal profile of Maura created by interviews of family, friends, professors, coaches, etc that knew her.

Same goes for the group of PI's.

Again, sorry, for using the word *determined*......deductions are based on the knowledge at hand........that is what these professional used.

michelle
02-11-2006, 10:57 PM
I wish they would find something out about her disappearence, since i dont know much about the case is there a website that breaks it down, I dont know if i should just read the threads here from the beginning?? Thanks..

Peabody
02-11-2006, 10:59 PM
You know Doc, I am still in "awe" of your posts. I especially liked when you said you were not "married" to a particular idea, considering what evidence may prevail.

Of course I am open to new evidence in this case that may "sway" my opinion also, but none yet has been forthcoming.

I am awaiting further developments in this case.....hopefully to a positive resolution.

ArmyWife: Truce? Why don't we just agree to disagree......to be reasonable. After all we are "neighbours".........

When I read this, Maura came to mind for some reason. For those of you who may think that I have an "alt.motive", for the post , I was reseaching information regarding "different personalities", "control and power" "family members"

From: http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Personality_Disorders/Site/Transcripts/narcissism.htm

I allowed my father much control over my life. I'm thirty-eight now and realize his narcissism. How do I limit his control without disowning him? Is it too late?

Dr. Vaknin: It is never too late to set oneself free. But liberty always has a price. Sometimes you can make peace with your oppressors, sometimes you can't, and YOU have to let go. It is a tango - you are BOTH engaged in this macabre dance. Stop the music. Set boundaries. Declare independence. Legislate. Fight for your rights. And if he persists, say goodbye.

If the "opressor" does not give up their "perceived" and "demonstrated" power and control over your life, you have to "save yourself", because the opressor is not going to save you from him.

After all a person may think and "feel" they have power and control over someone as they "feel or think" they are your "superior" (as in being the parent)" or have "authority" over you as in you are the child.

When that child is not a child anymore, and the "opressor" still feels a need for power and control over the adult child, problems arise.

The "opressor" sees nothing wrong with his behavior.........which is his personality.

All through your childhood you were dependent on your parents, but now you are not dependent, now you can take care of yourself, you are now an adult.

It may take years to get to the point of "escaping", but once you are an adult, the thought crosses your mind as to how to "escape" from this unhappy situation.

You can't speak up, they won't listen, or if you do, they look at your like "you should know your place" or "what is your problem".

You become depressed because you cannot express your anger, so you turn your anger inwards............you are forced to accept that this situation is not going to change for the better at least. That makes you angry, as you are left helpless with no choice.

The "family" members refuse to listen to you, you are unhappy, anytime you try to "exert your independence" you are shot down in a flash. You learn not to do that....or suffer the reprecussions. You keep thing to yourself. You keep secrets.

You don't want to run, but there is just no other choice. Trust me when I say" until you have walked" in "their shoes".........

You either "admit" defeat and nothing is going to change, or you walk.

Black or White, the family does not recognize any shades of grey.

Loyalty to the family plays no part in your decision, as loyalty would have to be put above your happiness for the rest of your life,

I strongly am of the opinion that Maura was not "free" totally without any "personal contraints" until that day in Mass when she packed her car and left.

She made that decision, on her own for herself. She was asserting her final act of absolute independence.

Maura may have been able to make "minor" decisions of no consequence, but when it came to other "major' life decision she was not free to do so as she wished.

But LE is still "hedging" their bets and keeping all options open, because you never know with one piece of evidence, cases and investigation turn on a dime. But I do not agree that evidence of foul play is forthcoming.

I think once she left and settled down from the "trauma" of escaping, that she now realized that she is the "master" of her own destiny, has her life to look forward to, without anyone "opressing" her and she can be happy. No one will tell Maura what to do, no on will make her feel that she is not in control of her own life.

I do feel that Maura came across or had "conversations" with people that told her that she does not have to live her life this way under her "opressors" thumb, that she is an adult, that she had choices. That gave her the encouragment to "live her own life".

When a peson has a sence of "new found" freedom, they want to enjoy it and experience it..

Maybe she picked up the alcohol to celebrate, in addition to "calming her nerves" because of the decision she just made, as there was no turning back, she was on the road......

Just a thought........

.




And, since her fiance was 1/2 a continent away, why did she not just flee to him?

Are you saying she was so misfortunate to have both a contolling family and a control freak for a fiance???

Waiting for your explanation of how you know/think either the family or the fiance are controlling?


****2 years ago today/this evening that the Murrays and Rausches met in the Haverhill Police Station and were told of 1.the runaway/suicide theory and 2. the dog scent ended at the SBD driveway 3. there were no footprints found relating to Maura 4. there was no evidence of foul play at the site of the abandoned car - at which time Maura's loved one begged for LE to continue a search for her because IF she was suicidal she needed help and IF she had succumbed to the elements, they wanted her home; yet were denied for more than a week until a cadaver dog was used in the second search at which time Scarinza announced something along the lines "we just wanted to make sure we did everything twice so we didn't miss anything" - in my opinion, reality was that they did the second search to shut the media up and herd the Murrays and Rausches out of town. Initially the Murrays and Rausches DID NOT/COULD NOT believe that someone had harmed Maura*****

Peabody
02-11-2006, 11:01 PM
I wish they would find something out about her disappearence, since i dont know much about the case is there a website that breaks it down, I dont know if i should just read the threads here from the beginning?? Thanks..
There is a timeline, video of Montel Show, and much discussion at
WWW.Maura.Murray.COM (http://www.Maura.Murray.COM)

There are also photos and links at www.spbowers.com/mauramissing.html (http://www.spbowers.com/mauramissing.html)

michelle
02-11-2006, 11:03 PM
I am on her website now, and it says that a person driving by seen her and called the police? Did they say if she was hurt, or hit her head, anything?

KatherineQ
02-11-2006, 11:34 PM
Peabody, I am so curious about this case. And I have evil, evil thoughts running through my head about how I would somehow get that information from the police department that they are withholding. Thinking along the lines of hiring someone to infiltrate the police department and get access, or offering like 500K for anyone who can smuggle xeroxed files out of the police station. Or anyone from the court clerk's office who had court transcripts of the hearing to release the file, etc. I keep thinking, how can they get that information.

So. What is your BEST GUESS about what is in that information? Clearly LE has some information that either 1. would be destroyed if released to the family (seems like the unlikely option) or 2. a witness would be harrassed if the files were turned over to the family (this looks like the clear winner).

It appears to me that someone knows where Maura is, or at least knew where she was headed, and why, and has not told the family and doesn't want to be identified. Remember the friend who said the first week Maura was missing that she didn't want to get Maura "in trouble"?

So what's your best guess about what this information that both LE and the court agrees should not be released to Fred Murray?


edited to add: this is a long way off, but at 7 years of her absence, can her family attempt to declare her legally dead to force LE's hand in proving she is still alive?

michelle
02-11-2006, 11:38 PM
who wont they let the family have the police reports and info? Are they afraid something is going to make them look bad?

KatherineQ
02-11-2006, 11:41 PM
who wont they let the family have the police reports and info? Are they afraid something is going to make them look bad?

Michelle - clearly, they have some information. I thought at first they were withholding because they were in a snit with Fred Murray, but when the court agreed that they had evidence that would either be destroyed by being public or a witness would be intimidated if the files were turned over, I changed my mind completely. The court's findings indicate that in fact, there is information the Murray's don't have.

michelle
02-11-2006, 11:48 PM
Michelle - clearly, they have some information. I thought at first they were withholding because they were in a snit with Fred Murray, but when the court agreed that they had evidence that would either be destroyed by being public or a witness would be intimidated if the files were turned over, I changed my mind completely. The court's findings indicate that in fact, there is information the Murray's don't have. Man they need to let this family know something!

KatherineQ
02-12-2006, 12:14 AM
I think Fred Murray has so put off the LE that they don't care how much he's suffering. And that's really sad, but I kind of get it. Fred Murray is as off-putting as Jug Twitty, Natalee Holloway's stepfather.

I think in cases like this there needs to be a mediator. A victim/law enforcement mediation agency that can serve as a buffer for LE so that they don't have to deal with such abrasive personalities, and families of victims can have some rest.

I have empathy for Fred Murray and Jug Twitty, and I have empathy for LE who are just trying to do their job everyday without dealing with the threat of violence.

There should be a mediator. You, the family of the victim sit over here and stop being threatening, and you, the cops, sit over here and understand what pain the family is in.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 01:02 AM
There are at least a couple reasons I can think of to not allow a family to know about the full details of an investigation:
1. A member of the family might lose it and go after any "person of interest" mentioned in the report. It has been known to have happened in other cases. That would only add to the tragedy.
And family (any family in such a position) might begin to pester witnesses and their family members in order to help prod them to spill more info.
2. If any of the family are considered "Persons of Interest" in the case it might reveal parts of the case to them that would allow the investigation target to realize there was evidence that needed to be destroyed or talking witnesses to be silenced to prevent arrest & conviction.

There may be other reasons also but those 2 reasons jumped out easily.

gatetrekker44
02-12-2006, 01:10 AM
Fred Murray or Lt. Rausch(and for the record, I have not), I simply don't get where KatherineQ or CyberLaw make inferences to them being off-putting(KatherineQ about Fred Murray) or controlling(CyberLaw about both Fred Murray & Lt. Rausch). And since this has come up before on this forum, specifically in Maura's case discussions, please remember that family-bashing is NOT something that will be tolerated on this site. While I defend to the limit the rights of ANYONE to post their theories about a particular case, I do draw the line at thinly veiled insults intended to smear family members whose only "crime" is desperately wanting answers in the disappearances of their family members. So can we PLEASE stick to the case discussions, and unless the family members are suspected of criminal participation, leave their "supposed" involvement out of the discussions? :banghead:

KatherineQ
02-12-2006, 01:25 AM
Gatetrekker - no, we can't dismiss family personalities when we discuss in this forum.

It sounds as if you haven't followed this case from the beginning. Maybe you should go back and do that now.

I am TOTALLY in Fred Murray's court, and pleading with LE to release information regarding Maura's disappeance.

On the other hand, he is abrasive. It is perhaps his caustic personality that has caused LE to not release information to him. CLEARLY they have information that they are unwilling to share.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 05:40 AM
Fred Murray or Lt. Rausch(and for the record, I have not), I simply don't get where KatherineQ or CyberLaw make inferences to them being off-putting(KatherineQ about Fred Murray) or controlling(CyberLaw about both Fred Murray & Lt. Rausch). And since this has come up before on this forum, specifically in Maura's case discussions, please remember that family-bashing is NOT something that will be tolerated on this site. While I defend to the limit the rights of ANYONE to post their theories about a particular case, I do draw the line at thinly veiled insults intended to smear family members whose only "crime" is desperately wanting answers in the disappearances of their family members. So can we PLEASE stick to the case discussions, and unless the family members are suspected of criminal participation, leave their "supposed" involvement out of the discussions? :banghead: I am very surprised at your outburst. It seems very unbecoming for a nonmoderator to threaten attempt to use rules to shut down a line of investigation because he doesn't like the direction it seems to him/her to be going. And for the record I have seen enough mentioned in the news reports to warrant the posts I have seen made so far,but thats' my opinion. And for the record I, as another member of websleuths, do not feel anyone was going out of their way to trash the family. People are working the case as best they can as far as I can tell. Do you have anything to contribute to members understanding of the case about the disappearance of Maura?

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 09:39 AM
I have a few questions about this case - can anyone answer?

1. All activity, since February 9, 2004 stopped on Maura's bank account, cell phone, etc.. So this is a confirmed date/time of disappearance - its not just the date the witness said they saw Maura and called police... right?

2. Was Maura's hair frosted or did it have blonde streaks?

3. Did Maura bite her nails or keep them very short?

4. Were Maura's ears pierced?

Thanks

docwho3
02-12-2006, 09:59 AM
There has been mention of Maura and her possibly drinking before the wreck or not, as well as other questions about her. I only found one article that mentions much about what she was like from the perspective of other students that knew her for any length of time. While I don't know if she drank anything during her drive the evening she disappeared it was reported she had been drinking into the wee hours the night before one of her wrecks. Even forgetting the drink angle the farther down the page you read the more interestng it seems to get. Pay close attention to the dates and times. I am not sure there aren't some inconsistencies in the article.
http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2004/03/09/news/news02.txt

Also there was a quote that caught my eye, saying Maura was
. . .someone who could be ‘‘somewhat flirtatious'' when she drank. . . and that was described as being a recent change in her behavior.

And another bit from the same article caught my Eye:
. . .Alfieri said Markopoulos, Murray and a few friends were drinking into the late-night hours of Feb. 8. Fred Murray was staying in a hotel on Route 9 that weekend. He was in town to help his daughter find a new car.
Father and daughter ate dinner at the Amherst Brewing Co., a popular watering hole, that night. Then Markopoulos showed up for a drink. After about an hour, they left, the girls dropped Fred Murray at his hotel, and headed to Alfieri's dorm. . .

petra
02-12-2006, 09:59 AM
First, I must say that if one of my children, close relative or friend was missing-I would do everything in my power-emotionally,financially,legally,perhaps illegally.etc. to find that missing person if they were 10, 20 or 50 years old.

From my point of view--selfish as it may be-- I would push every boundary and beyond. As a parent, I would not care about their legal right to privacy. I would want something, anything to know...whether abducted, imprisoned, murdered or runaway. The not knowing would be sure hell for me.

I understand fully Mr Murrray's quest and the horrible toll it must take on him and the family in hitting all these different roadblocks. Frustration and total disgust trying to work within a system and hitting brickwalls would drive me over the edge.

Two years now is way too long for any person to bear. I wish the Murray's the best in their pursuit and support them in doing so.

Having said that, from what I have gleened in the posts,articles etc....I would like to add some of my own thoughts...

But would like to know if a discussion is really welcome here OR is it support wanted so Mr Murray can pursue his legal appeals with LE????

docwho3
02-12-2006, 10:17 AM
I have a few questions about this case - can anyone answer?

1. All activity, since February 9, 2004 stopped on Maura's bank account, cell phone, etc.. So this is a confirmed date/time of disappearance - its not just the date the witness said they saw Maura and called police... right?

2. Was Maura's hair frosted or did it have blonde streaks?

3. Did Maura bite her nails or keep them very short?

4. Were Maura's ears pierced?

Thanks My understanding from a planet huff article (I think that was where I read it) was that there was actual security cam footage showing her buying the alcohol and tylenol before leaving the day of her disappearance and that she seemed to be alone at that time. You might want to go to his website and read to make sure of those facts though. I haven't read the article in months now so my memory might be off.

But you do raise an interesting point. We have Maura's car showing up at the side of a road and No Maura. But we have 3 witnesses who claim she was there but none have ever seen her before that I know of (School bus driver, a neighbor, and a construction worker who was passing through and who only remembered seeing her after it came out in the papers.) Howewver, it does seem far fetched to think these people are all somehow connected to her disappearance when they did not know her before this time (or at least no connection has surfaced.) So did someone other than Maura, but resembling her a little, drive the car out there and then wreck and leave it to create a mystery that leads away from the truth of what happened?

That too is possible but to have packed up stuff that Maura loved and would always have taken with her in the car (such as her stuffed monkey and such) would have taken someone with very intimate knowledge of Maura's habits. I don't yet see her college chums at the new school knowing enough about her to do that. And it doesn't seem to explain her death-in-the-family excuse to be gone a few days.

Still, I am not entirely meaning to shoot down any of those possibilities. Everything bears looking into.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 10:26 AM
. . .Having said that, from what I have gleened in the posts,articles etc....I would like to add some of my own thoughts...

But would like to know if a discussion is really welcome here OR is it support wanted so Mr Murray can pursue his legal appeals with LE???? (Welcoming smile)
I can only speak for myself but you are most welcome to speak your thoughts as far as I am concerned. I know you posted when you thought we were wrong in something said, so I believe you will speak what you believe to be true and not just for scoring points.

petra
02-12-2006, 10:28 AM
i have tried to find a timeline of maura before feb 9 2004

how long was she at WP?
seems she started Umass in Jan 2002 and attended to the start of her 5th semester, missing feb 9 2004...which would be about 2 wks into the 5th semester....is this correct??

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 10:35 AM
Docwho thanks for the information about 3 people claiming to have seen Maura at the accident site. I had only read about 1 person - the person who called it into 911.

I did not have any theory that someone who resembles Maura might have staged the accident. I simply was trying to determine the confirmed time of her disappearance. So it appears to be February 9, 2004 at 7-7:30 pm.

I am still interested in my other 3 questions, if anyone can answer them.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 10:36 AM
i have tried to find a timeline of maura before feb 9 2004

how long was she at WP?
seems she started Umass in Jan 2002 and attended to the start of her 5th semester, missing feb 9 2002...which would be about 2 wks into the 5th semester....is this correct?? Peabody once posted some timeline info in a response to me. You can read it at http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=892987&postcount=189

Its post number 189 in the "Maura Murray Part 2-merged" thread.
I hope the info helps you.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 10:45 AM
Docwho thanks for the information about 3 people claiming to have seen Maura at the accident site. I had only read about 1 person - the person who called it into 911.

I did not have any theory that someone who resembles Maura might have staged the accident. I simply was trying to determine the confirmed time of her disappearance. So it appears to be February 9, 2004 at 7-7:30 pm.

I am still interested in my other 3 questions, if anyone can answer them. Sorry, I misworded my response. I meant your question raised that possibility to my mind, not that you had stated any such theory yourself. I was preparing to go back and edit my post to that effect when I saw you had already responded. If you go back and read the posts starting at number 121 in the "Maura Murray Part 2-merged" thread I made a post that has links in it to news reports about the accident. I hope they help you. Also there are links to new reports at http://mauramurray.com/news.html

murraydwyer
02-12-2006, 10:45 AM
A few days ago somebody complained about the people from Maura's website coming over to Websleuths and posting. I can't find it now and don't know whether I just don't have the patience to read closely enough or it was edited, but I did some research. Most of the posters on Maura's website that I know (from usernames) to be from Websleuths went to Maura's site from Websleuths...not the reverse....I have actually been on Websleuths since long before Maura's website went up. Along the same lines, there was a comment made (the reason I decided to interject) about Gatetrekker

Gatetrekker - no, we can't dismiss family personalities when we discuss in this forum.

It sounds as if you haven't followed this case from the beginning. Maybe you should go back and do that now.

Gatetrekker was very active in posting on Maura's thread...unfortunately in February of 2005 with about 500 replies and over 35,000 views a thread on Maura was lost...As to the Gatetrekker's comments about family bashing, it was, I'm sure, reminding posters of the following:


Victims and family members will no longer be bashed here at WS.

I am disturbed with the attacks on the victims and their family on this forum. Websleuths may not be a victims advocate forum but the attacks are ugly and I would like to see them stopped. It is not acceptable to be slamming them on the forum.

Posters should be reminded that the Murray family have a child missing , trashing them on Websleuths should not be occurring. We are not going to participate in victim bashing

That being said, I have revised my signature...a disclaimer in effect...If you choose, you can completely ignore my input as biased. I have not posted in quite a while, because it became too frustrating to attempt to get a discussion going about anything other than the 'voluntarily missing' theory.

As I've posted, I have no problem with theories...I have a problem when theories become presented as fact...and will occassionally come back to ask for a poster to cite the article the received information from or point out that a comment is not a known fact. For instance, the other day a poster implied that Maura was seen on tape buying alcohol and tylenol the day she disappeared. I have literally hundreds of articles and news broadcasts saved...I have never seen this statement. In point of fact, since the tylenol bottle was left in the car, I know for a fact that it was not a new bottle.

As to Maura's dad's personality traits or any of Maura's family for that matter, I have never seen anything in print or on the news from which I could determine that he was abrasive...I have on Websleuths (which is why the warning above was posted) and on CN2000 which was why a poster appears to have disappeared, and I might add the discussion stopped. Obviously, interpretations of personality is very subjective, but I might be abrasive if it were my daughter who was missing and the bottom line is what does it matter? Somebody mentioned that they thought perhaps that's why the police were withholding information from Fred...Consider this, in December before or after the Court hearing, someone from the Attorney General's office told a reporter that the police had conducted a search a couple of weeks before based on a tip (this did not appear in the online version of the paper). Fred and the family found out because the article was sent to the attorney a week later. Now, I for one would not expect the police or the Asst. Attorney General or even the victim's advocate to tell Maura's father who gave them the tip, or even where the search took place, but if it is information that can be given to the press, basic human kindness or whatever would require that the family be told first.

To answer a couple of questions...although as my signature states I have never met Maura, I have seen probably a 100 or more pictures and her hair might be sun streaked, but I don't believe she ever colored it...perhaps someone else can answer more clearly. This is the only picture where Maura's hair appears streaked...since she was a runner, she spent a lot of time outdoors and it seems reasonable to believe that the sun bleached it a bit:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/MauraMurray00120copy.jpg
I've been told that her nails were short. As to her ears being pierced...I don't know. I just looked at the picures I have and she doesn't appear to be wearing earrings, but it is hard to tell. That is an interesting question, I hope you will explain why you ask...since it is a question that has come up before.

petra
02-12-2006, 10:47 AM
thanks doc..here i go

i see Maura on a personal downward spiral.
goes to WP, decides not for her- transfers to UMass

this may sound quite snobby or elitiest- but UMass is basically a big leap backwards.
(I have checked out stats on both schools and have links)
I am also familiar with this area unnis see we did the two week college trip with D two years ago.

Maura began as a transfer major in chem enginering...than transfering to nursing. i see this as a step back.

It is repeated been said she was on full scholarship. UMass is a state school and for in state residents tuition (and room and board) is circa 15,000 USD a year for 2005-2006.

Financial packages are provided...possible small merit circa 3,000 but most based on financial need combined with grants,loans, work study etc.

I am not by any means pointing fingers.
I bring this up because everything I have read talk about stellar student, full scholarship, difficult subjects, two part time jobs.
To me this seems a bit overstated...Maura is human and seems like a very nice person. There is no need to harp on her super achievements to make her special. Maura is special and unique just because she is Maura.

Does anyone get my drift??
So much is overstated from the beginning.
More on what I see as unusual behavior on Maura's part and her possibly slipping into some self-dobt and depression.

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 11:00 AM
To answer a couple of questions...although as my signature states I have never met Maura, I have seen probably a 100 or more pictures and her hair might be sun streaked, but I don't believe she ever colored it...perhaps someone else can answer more clearly. This is the only picture where Maura's hair appears streaked...since she was a runner, she spent a lot of time outdoors and it seems reasonable to believe that the sun bleached it a bit:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/MauraMurray00120copy.jpg
I've been told that her nails were short. As to her ears being pierced...I don't know. I just looked at the picures I have and she doesn't appear to be wearing earrings, but it is hard to tell. That is an interesting question, I hope you will explain why you ask...siince it is a question that has come up before.
Thank you for attempting to answer my questions. I asked because these details are sometimes given to describe someone who has been found either dead, or alive but medically unable to respond.

Although the most likely cause of Maura's disappearance is an abduction, I have not ruled out an accidental traffic accident, a medical collapse, a loss of memory, etc.. As a result I'm looking for her in "other places".

1. As you mentioned (thanks for the pic) Maura's hair does appear to be sun streaked in some of her photos. Since most of the published photos that I've seen have her hair pulled back its hard to say if it is just sun streaked. Do you have a pic that shows her with her hair down? I seem to recall one early on but can't locate it now.

2. I have not noticed a photo of Maura wearing earrings. So I'm assuming that her ears are NOT pierced.

3. I have not seen a photo where Maura's nails are long. Also, as a nursing student she would likely keep then short. Again, my assumption.

Basically I'm trying to confirm some identifying details about Maura. I don't like to assume anything that can easily be clarified by someone who knows her.

petra
02-12-2006, 11:01 AM
Peabody once posted some timeline info in a response to me. You can read it at http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=892987&postcount=189

Its post number 189 in the "Maura Murray Part 2-merged" thread.
I hope the info helps you.
thanks doc...i had read that. but was wondering about WP? How long did she attend- 6 months, 1 1/2 yrs?? before starting UMass in Jan 2002

murraydwyer
02-12-2006, 11:19 AM
I am not by any means pointing fingers.
I bring this up because everything I have read talk about stellar student, full scholarship, difficult subjects, two part time jobs.
To me this seems a bit overstated...Maura is human and seems like a very nice person. There is no need to harp on her super achievements to make her special. Maura is special and unique just because she is Maura.

Does anyone get my drift??
So much is overstated from the beginning.

This post appeared while I was posting mine above...You are absolutely right...from all that I have read and heard from friends and friends parents, Maura is special and unique. "Overstated"....should those who mentioned her achievements have left it to the police to present information about Maura...about the only details they released had to do with Maura being suicidal, buying alcohol and having had two car accidents. And I repeat I have never met Maura...but I have talked to family members and her friends parents and read what they said...do you expect them to trash talk her...of course her family and friends countered what the police where saying and implying??? If she was drinking and driving, shame on her. If she lied to professors, shame on her. She had two accidents....if the media is to be believed the roads were icy in both and could have played as much a part as alcohol...she was not cited in the first accident she's never been seen again by anybody who knows her in the second...Was Maura upset by something...it is a logical conclusion, but really....'does anybody get my drift'.

She changed majors....so. I went to the orientation for parents when my son entered UMass they made a huge deal about not being surprised if your child changed majors within the first few months...so much so that I was surprised that my son didn't until the end of his junior year... While chemical engineering may have presented Maura with more options for higher paid positions, perhaps she decided nursing would be more rewarding...but lets face it nurses have a much harder time paying of student loans and from what I've heard UMass has a good nursing program...How this could be conceived as a step backward is beyond me...

Pondering...there are very few pictures of Maura with her hair down...this is the only one I could scan:

Maura - not sure how old she was (http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/MauraFriends2.jpg)

petra
02-12-2006, 11:45 AM
i see what you are saying about countering LE statements. i did not personally take this into consideration mainly because i basically discount what LE says in the beginning..

by step backwards...guess that phrasing is incorrect.

she would need to do at least additional two yrs in nursing program to get BA.











































l

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 11:49 AM
Thanks for the hair down pic - its a good one because its "natural". There is also a formal photo of her, with her hair down, on her site... it shows her beauty but not her "everyday" appearance.

Again, thanks!

docwho3
02-12-2006, 11:49 AM
. . .
At 3:40 p.m. that afternoon, Maura Murray withdrew $280 from an ATM and later made a stop at a local liquor store in Amherst, where she was attending the University of Massachusetts. Surveillance cameras recorded her movements at both locations and she appeared to be alone. . .http://huffcrimeblog.com/?p=223

I am still looking for the quote about the tylenol. It has been months since I read it and not all the online news reports are still there. It seems it was a quote of one of the female family members who said she knew why the police thought maura was suicidal and that it was becaise of the tylenol she bought.

When and if I find it again I will post a link to it. However, the existence of the tylenol is not in question wherever she bought it. She took it with her and that much is known and when considered with the other things known as I said in previous post it could make one concerned about Maura's state of mind.

petra
02-12-2006, 12:04 PM
WOW---just saw that most of my post went POOFFFF!!!:confused:

Guess just as well.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 12:40 PM
And I would like to take a moment to remind those nonmoderators who have been threatening all with banning: It is not family bashing solely because it is a post that you yourself as a nonmoderator don't like. A moderator has to make that determination.

Compared to the comments I read on the Christine Rudy thread what minor thing KatherinQ alluded to in her post was in no way family bashing in my opinion. And quite honestly this "bashing warning" stuff seems to be getting out of hand. Maybe one of us other posters should drop a line to the moderator and ask if that banning threat can be used as a silencing tactic by those nonmoderators who just dont happen to like a post.

Since coming to this thread I have read peabody's posts and he speaks for the family although I am not certain to what extent and now we have Armywife210 and she speaks for the family at their request, so she tells us. And Murray dwyer has spoken with such authority in responses in the past that I finally asked if Murraydwyer was speaking for the family officially also. (And was told no, if I remember correctly and was asked what would it matter - something like that.) And gate trekker says gatetrekker "draws the line at . . ." as if he/she speaks for the family although not making that claim outright, but still in effect,threatening banning.

I have seen no one in here post anything like calling the family scumbags or any such things as I saw people routinely get by with in other threads. (Go read the Christine rudy threads.) No one is calling the murray family all drunks or liars and so far no one has said they murdered anyone. No one appears to me to be dragging the family through the mud and, given the posts I have read, only someone who was being ultra picky would say so.

What is it with you nonmoderator people needing to control this forum? Are you that afraid L.E. will stop searching for Maura just because of something one of us might post on this tiny website or are you just needing the ego trip of threatening everyone so you can pontificate?

Even if you win this weird battle that you seem to be waging, you still lose in the end. The truth can't be stopped forever. Eventually we will all know what did or did not happen to Maura. Whether she was a victem of foul play or is still alive and a runaway will not change one bit just because you run spin control on all the posts here.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 12:42 PM
WOW---just saw that most of my post went POOFFFF!!!:confused:

Guess just as well. That seems to happen to people sometimes. Not sure what causes it.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 12:46 PM
thanks doc...i had read that. but was wondering about WP? How long did she attend- 6 months, 1 1/2 yrs?? before starting UMass in Jan 2002You might have to ask peabody for that info or possibly armywife for that info.

murraydwyer
02-12-2006, 01:12 PM
WOW---just saw that most of my post went POOFFFF!!!

Glad to here it is not just me that it happens to...wondered about all the blank spaces.

Sorry if I came off as defensive...but last night I was researching what information the police had actually released and I guess I was still in that frame of mind....along those lines there is an interesting report released by the VTSP. It was comments made at a joint press conference by NH and VT State police about Maura's case and Brianna Maitland's. It has been removed from the VTSP website (I can't find it any longer at any rate), but is on Maura's website at this page VTSP/NHSP joint press conference June 8, 2004 - edited July 2004 (http://www.mauramurray.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26)
At one point I took the two different statements and put them side by side...no comparison as to the investigation...perhaps it was just details not included...who knows. Keep in mind, that Maura and Brianna appear to have disappeared under similar circumstances (whether or not there is a connection) just over a month apart. To that point, drugs were being played up in Brianna's case...later, one of the news papers actually printed something of a retraction. As you read the 'synopsis' on Maura's case carefully notice the statements made about Maura. Don't think there was any mention of the fact that Maura had made the Dean's list the prior semester. Didn't see mention of the fact that she had a full load of classes in addition to having started nursing clinicals, or worked two part time jobs. Honestly, I don't even know why they mentioned the amount of damage to the car in Maura's prior accident...they didn't mention that she was not cited at that accident. Did they perhaps also eat dinner at the "local brew pub"...we don't know because it doesn't say???


She went on the Internet and looked up directions and overnight accommodations in the Bartlett, NH area as well as Burlington, VT area. Notice the word overnight...I don't recall having seen that anywhere else and since the police have the computer I can't verify that statement...but I know that even when I have inquired about reservations, I have to put in the nights that I want to stay. Now there are some here who theorize that Maura ran away...trust me I have never discounted the possibility...we just don't know, but if you were running away while you might leave false clues on your computer...why would you also call a number presumably to find out about availability...the number was a Massachusetts exchange which Maura would have known. Somebody mentioned the possibility that they had in the past asked others to follow them because of car trouble........would you really ask a friend to follow you for 2 1/2 to three hours??? While there is nothing in any media, nor does the family know of anybody Maura knew in NH...there is always a possibility. My son, because of the sport he is involved with, knows people all over the country and UMass attacts a lot of out of state students...even students from out of the country, but it would seem that anybody she knew through track or school would also have been in school at that point, not in NH. We were informed at a website for Maura that UMass had a cabin in NH...it was checked.

If any of you have 'information' as alluded to...please send it to Maura's email address Info2@mauramurray.com or if you prefer to the P.O. Box at
Mauramurray.com, P.O. Box 466, Humarock, MA 02047
I can assure you that all information has been given to the detectives. Whether Maura choose to run away as some of you on this website insist or whether Maura has met with an unfortunate fate...her family needs to know. If she ran away and you have evidence of it and don't want the family to know then you could contact the New Hampshire State Police...I am quite certain that they will not tell the family...but will be relieved to have the case closed and the Murrays back in MA. Not only that, but it will relieve the financial and emotional burden for those going to NH all the time to try to find any shred of information to help find out what happened to Maura.

DocWho, I don't know what you read about the alcohol and tylenol...I do know that the tylenol bottle was not new...I've seen it and I seriously doubt that she was even able to buy both in the same store...in MA unlike many other states, there are few places where you can buy alcohol and tylenol in the same store. Something I have been guilty of at times is reading to fast and misreading something...I have learned to be careful and have a word document up with what I am responding to...often, we see what our thinking predisposes us to see...not what was actually there. I've also learned that when I reread articles, I see information I missed before...frequently it is because information takes on new meaning when you learn other information at a later date. In fact, the statement made at the joint press conference above, never penetrated until I just looked it up to find the link.......

Peabody
02-12-2006, 01:33 PM
You might have to ask peabody for that info or possibly armywife for that info.
Docwho,

I was never asked by the family to speak for them or for Maura.

Because I know family members and friends of Maura who were hurting over much of what was being said here which was theory, not fact, I CHOSE to speak for Maura and her family. I can honestly say that to my knowledge the Murrays and Rausches HAVE NEVER been upset about any of the facts regarding Maura's missing that have been reported or posted. It is the theories and the misinformation that is upsetting to them because it prevents an accurate investigation and misleads the public.

The factual evidence on this chat board supporting the need for the Murrays to have someone "speak for them" was contained in the thread that was accidentally deleted when the moderator attempted to "merge the thread" - to which murraydwyer referred. I am sure that the 'oldtimers' here recall how Maura as well as Fred Murray were constandly being defamed. In fact, the mudslingging and victim and family bashing posted (almost entirely by ONE poster) on Maura's thread played a huge part in rules being changed here for ALL THREADS at Websleuths and the creation of the different threads: Missing Persons Info and Support; Located Info and Support; Missing but Not Forgotten; and this thread Missing/Located Forum Discussion.


I have a few questions about this case - can anyone answer?

1. All activity, since February 9, 2004 stopped on Maura's bank account, cell phone, etc.. So this is a confirmed date/time of disappearance - its not just the date the witness said they saw Maura and called police... right?

2. Was Maura's hair frosted or did it have blonde streaks?

3. Did Maura bite her nails or keep them very short?

4. Were Maura's ears pierced?

Thanks
1. There has been no activity on Maura's debit card, credit cards, cell phone, etc since 02/09/04 - this is the date that she was witnessed being in and out of car along Route 112 in Haverhill NH

2. No one has any knowledge of her artifically streaking her hair. Her hair would lighten some in the summer; and it had red highlights (sister Kathleen actually has red hair) which if viewed in bright sunlight was most visible.

3. Maura bit her fingernails. A habit that she was always trying to break.

4. Maura had pierced ears. She did not always wear earrings. All of her jewelry - not a great deal as she was not into lots of material things - was found in her abandoned car. According to my source, Maura was wearing the diamond stud earrings as well as the diamond necklece, gifts from her fiance, in this photo taken the Christmas before she went missing at this link: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/MauraNana.jpg

docwho3
02-12-2006, 02:01 PM
. . .Notice the word overnight...I don't recall having seen that anywhere else and since the police have the computer I can't verify that statement...but I know that even when I have inquired about reservations, I have to put in the nights that I want to stay. Now there are some here who theorize that Maura ran away...trust me I have never discounted the possibility...we just don't know, but if you were running away while you might leave false clues on your computer...why would you also call a number presumably to find out about availability...the number was a Massachusetts exchange which Maura would have known. . .
Well, you ask a valid question. Currently my thought about the "overnight" part of it is thats all that was really needed if she was only using the room to stage a scene for others to find once she was away and had phoned in a tip. If her real destination was somewhere else that had already been set up in advance she only needed a one night room sort of thing.




. . .Somebody mentioned the possibility that they had in the past asked others to follow them because of car trouble........would you really ask a friend to follow you for 2 1/2 to three hours??? . . .
You are right to ask the question. Yes I would ask if I felt I really needed the help and if I knew the trip in that car was to be a one way trip. But I would certainly not do it routinely. In the past when I had someone follow me it was at times such as taking the car to be repaired and I was not sure it would make it all they way, or like when I had it jump started due to a dead battery and wanted to be sure I made it home alright. To go on a trip of 2 1/2 hours would seem to me to be very much a once-per-lifetime request of someone and they would likely require to be reimbursed in some way, for their gas at the very least. Young men of College age and up will often go to great lengths to help a young lady in distress of some kind. I suppose you might look for someone who had reason to be going the way you wanted to go anyway . . .maybe someone going to mardigras or to visit family of their own etc.


. . .DocWho, I don't know what you read about the alcohol and tylenol...I do know that the tylenol bottle was not new...I've seen it and I seriously doubt that she was even able to buy both in the same store... You may be right about the bottle not being new. I see no reason to argue the point at this time, especially since I don't remember exactly where I saw those words. I am human and it is possible I made a mistake. But the bottle exists and it was taken with her and I suppose L.E. had cause to be concerned, all things considered. Even with that having been said I make note that in my posted theory I said I did not believe that she actually meant to really suicide but that she possibly meant to show that she could have done so. I figure a nursing student would normally know how bad a choice that particular method would be to choose and would choose anything but that method if they really intended to suicide.

I did find this quote on the murray website:

. . .I questioned them regarding their theory: it was based on us not knowing that she was leaving school; that she had stated in her emails to profs and employer of "a death in the family"; the alcohol she purchased and the fact that she had aspirin and tylenol pm in her bag. . .http://www.mauramurray.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1763&sid=99eb206265f4eeae087894ae0be52e35
Note: I add that if you read the entire post on the website you will see that the poster (Sharon) is disputing the L.E. theory of Maura having been suicidal.

She was carrying aspirin and tylenol in her bag according to the poster.
I hope this helps to clear things up.

murraydwyer
02-12-2006, 02:17 PM
This is becoming more like a chat than a forum, but here goes:


But the bottle exists and it was taken with her and I suppose L.E. had cause to be concerned, all things considered. Even with that having been said I make note that in my posted theory I said I did not believe that she actually meant to really suicide but that she possibly meant to show that she could have done so. I figure a nursing student would normally know how bad a choice that particular method would be to choose and would choose anything but that method if they really intended to suicide.

The bottle does exist and I would agree that a nursing student would know how bad a choice that particular method would be and you are also very correct that L.E. should have been concerned....perhaps more concerned and not waited from Monday night until Wednesday to bring in one dog (from what I have been told by someone who saw the dog on TV it was not a bloodhound) when in fact there was a search and rescue organization not far from the crash site.

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 02:19 PM
Thank you Peabody for all the answers! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

docwho3
02-12-2006, 02:40 PM
http://www.nampn.doenetwork.us/cases/murray_maura.html
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200401157S

crypto6
02-12-2006, 02:59 PM
perhaps more concerned and not waited from Monday night until Wednesday to bring in one dog (from what I have been told by someone who saw the dog on TV it was not a bloodhound) when in fact there was a search and rescue organization not far from the crash site.

Herein is my quandary: Why wouldn't LE put on a full SAR for a young girl on foot probably exposed to lethal low temperatures with nightfall coming?? Either they are incompetent and uncaring beyond belief, or had some strong indication that she was not wandering in the woods or down a snowy road. If they somehow found she was picked up and was safe but not wanting to be located, why not say so? If LE immediately ascertained this as a criminal investigation (she was transported away in a criminal act) and local SAR was not warranted, they appear more inept, as real activity and investigation began well after she disappeared, long enough for vital evidence to be lost or further criminal acts to take place. So either they intentionally left her to freeze, knew she got away safe from the scene, or sat on their thumbs while a predator took her. ANY logic or factual flaws??
Thoughts??

Peabody
02-12-2006, 03:07 PM
If one looks closely enough in this link at the National Center for Missing Adults, one can *barely* see Maura's diamond stud earrings.

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/g...php?A200401157S

This photo is a "cropped" version of the photo found at http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/MauraNana.jpg



Now back to the questions posed by Crypto6 - anxious to hear your thoughts


.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 03:08 PM
. . .So either they intentionally left her to freeze, knew she got away safe from the scene, or sat on their thumbs while a predator took her. ANY logic or factual flaws??
Thoughts??And this helps us how in understanding what happened to Maura? Or are you leading up to a conclusion of one of the three that will actually point to where she might be?

michelle
02-12-2006, 04:01 PM
This case is Mind Boggling!!

crypto6
02-12-2006, 04:02 PM
And this helps us how in understanding what happened to Maura? Or are you leading up to a conclusion of one of the three that will actually point to where she might be?
It helps us by focusing on immediate peri-accident period free of the prior encumberances. The departure from usual procedure of immediate search and rescue if LE thought she was on foot is too great to accomodate any answer except they had reason to believe she had been picked up and was safe at the time. Why would they think that, and why would they still be unwilling to reveal it??

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 04:20 PM
The case of Maura and Brianna Maitland happened geographically about 2.5 hrs apart. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=montgomery,+vermont&daddr=haverhill,+new+hampshire

Maura disappeared first, then Brianna about a month later.

The authorities say the two cases are NOT linked.

In Brianna's case there has been the same kind of "obstruction" or "noncooperation" from authorities, that has occured in Maura's case.

Brianna's family, at one time, had Texas Eccusearch all ready to search the area and authorities wouldn't allow it citing "new evidence".

This was a news article that was posted on August 10, 2005 on another site:




http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/4831162/detail.html

Police Claim New Leads In Maitland Case
Infamous Search Team Told To Stay Home

BURLINGTON, Vt. -- Brianna Maitland has been missing for more than a year, and her family was hoping a specially trained search team from Texas would uncover new clues to their daughter's disappearance.

It's the same group that has been in Aruba helping in the high-profile search for Natalee Holloway --- a teenager from Alabama who vanished on the island.

The Texas Equusearch team was planning to arrive in Vermont on Tuesday, but were told not to come by local police who said they have new leads in the case. The Maitlands want to know why police have "turned away one of the best search organizations in America."

"If they give us the word that they need us and they feel as though what we have to offer is going to be valuable in this case, we won't even second-guess it, we'll be on the first flight out," said Miller.

The Maitlands said they dealt with a similar situation last year when the national organization called Klaas Kids wanted to come to town.

State police weren't available to elaborate on their supposed leads, but said they are doing everything they can to crack this case.

This was the second time a search team was turned away. Months later, volunteers did do a search and came up with nothing. As far as I'm aware there was no "new evidence" revealed.

Brianna's car was located where it looked like she had tried to back away, or turn around.

Its hard to believe that both the State of Vermont, and the State of New Hampshire authorities would involved in a cover up to protect a suspect. So, is it possible that all the secrecy is because they are onto one suspect and don't want to reveal too much? Or don't want to publically admit the cases are linked?

***********
The above is speculation on my part based on only superficial knowledge of the two cases.

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 04:30 PM
http://www.bringbrihome.org/Contac1.jpg
How Brianna's car was found.

Peabody
02-12-2006, 04:40 PM
Check out this link:

http://mauramurray.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=135

Click on Maura (http://patriciaviolamissing.homestead.com/Maura_Murray_on_Montel_Williams_Nov_29_2004.wmv):

If you watch the entire video, you will see interviews with Maura's best friends since grade school, her sister Kathleen, her fiance, and her father Fred.

You will also be able to view Maura with her hair down.

Hopefully, too, some of you can determine how "abrasive" Fred Murray truly is.

A picture is worth a thousand words!


Perhaps this will provide some insight?????




.
For those of you wanting to view photos of Maura with her

docwho3
02-12-2006, 04:41 PM
It helps us by focusing on immediate peri-accident period free of the prior encumberances. The departure from usual procedure of immediate search and rescue if LE thought she was on foot is too great to accomodate any answer except they had reason to believe she had been picked up and was safe at the time. Why would they think that, and why would they still be unwilling to reveal it?? If they felt it would violate her legal right to privacy perhaps they would have considered that reason enough to not reveal it. And thanks for explaining what you meant.

murraydwyer
02-12-2006, 04:49 PM
Crypto...I don't know what either the Haverhill police believed nor the NHSP...I have spent a lot of time looking at statements made on Maura's case and can only offer you the following quotes that I have found about what they had to say about the possibility that Maura was picked up. Notice the last two which appeared in the paper on the same day:

PICKED UP

2/18/04 Caledonian Record – Jeffrey Williams Chief Haverhill Police - "We don't know if someone picked her up," Williams said. "We are certainly concerned about that (possibility).
2/20/04 Brockton Enterprise - Investigators say Murray probably left in another vehicle… Police say they have considered that someone whom Maura Murray knew was traveling with her in another vehicle, but that remains unknown. She is a junior at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst.

2/20/04 Caledonian Record - While he was talking on his phone on his front porch, Atwood could see the road, but not Murray's disabled car. He saw several vehicles drive by, but couldn't tell any makes or models because it was so dark. Atwood believes one of the vehicles which had passed his house could have stopped and picked her up.

2/20/04 Seacoast Online - After the accident, witnesses said she asked them to call a wrecker….Scarinza said. "We are reasonably confident that she did not enter the woods near the accident scene. That area was searched several times."
The accident scene was in sight of several homes, although the area becomes remote after that. Scarinza said she did not seek help from any of the homeowners, so it may be that she accepted a ride somewhere, but, he said, "there is no indication that anyone picked her up." There is no evidence of foul play either, he said.

2/21/04 Caledonian Record - Lt. John Scarinza,NHSP: "There is no indication someone picked her up," Scarinza said. "At this point, I have no reason to believe that (she was taken against her will)."

2/21/04 – Daily NH Gazette –Scarinza said police believe Murray got a ride from the accident scene. But Scarinza said searchers found no sign of a struggle at the scene or any other evidence that she has been harmed.

crypto6
02-12-2006, 04:58 PM
It helps us by focusing on immediate peri-accident period free of the prior encumbrances. The departure from usual procedure of immediate search and rescue if LE thought she was on foot is too great to accommodate any answer except they had reason to believe she had been picked up and was safe at the time. Why would they think that, and why would they still be unwilling to reveal it??
My rank order of possibilities would be:
1. She was picked up by someone she knew who was following her per plan, as you posit. This is far more likely than predator abduction, unless that area is a predator nexus so every third car has one or two. Since we don't know how events unfolded after the posited pickup, more likely than not her judgment in cohorts was good, and she made safely away.

2. She was picked up by someone she did not know who was following her or happened upon her and this person assisted her in getting safely away.

3. She was picked up by someone she knew who was following her per plan, as you posit. This turned unfortunate, and she was harmed.

4 She was picked up by someone she did not know who was following her or happened upon her and this person led to her harm. This could be LE, any of the persons claiming to have seen her, or others.

5. She walked out and perished due to the elements.

6. She walked out to safety.

Favoring scenarios 3 and 4:

A Superior Court judge saying this in ruling against Fred Murray's application to examine records: Considering that it sometimes takes several years — even decades — for the state to prosecute major crimes, a lapse of two years is not a long period of time,” Vaughn wrote. “Release of the records could jeopardize the investigation and lead to, among other things, destruction of evidence, intimidation of witnesses and loss of communications with entities providing confidential information.” .
If my analysis is correct, the reason the judge is allowing this large amount of time without releasing the records is that a major crime investigation is underway.
Whether this is a criminal investigation of LE or of others is unclear.

crypto6
02-12-2006, 04:59 PM
If they felt it would violate her legal right to privacy perhaps they would have considered that reason enough to not reveal it. And thanks for explaining what you meant.
That's a question for our lawyers here, and a good one.

crypto6
02-12-2006, 05:01 PM
Crypto...I don't know what either the Haverhill police believed nor the NHSP...I have spent a lot of time looking at statements made on Maura's case and can only offer you the following quotes that I have found about what they had to say about the possibility that Maura was picked up. Notice the last two which appeared in the paper on the same day:

PICKED UP

2/18/04 Caledonian Record – Jeffrey Williams Chief Haverhill Police - "We don't know if someone picked her up," Williams said. "We are certainly concerned about that (possibility).
2/20/04 Brockton Enterprise - Investigators say Murray probably left in another vehicle… Police say they have considered that someone whom Maura Murray knew was traveling with her in another vehicle, but that remains unknown. She is a junior at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst.

2/20/04 Caledonian Record - While he was talking on his phone on his front porch, Atwood could see the road, but not Murray's disabled car. He saw several vehicles drive by, but couldn't tell any makes or models because it was so dark. Atwood believes one of the vehicles which had passed his house could have stopped and picked her up.

2/20/04 Seacoast Online - After the accident, witnesses said she asked them to call a wrecker….Scarinza said. "We are reasonably confident that she did not enter the woods near the accident scene. That area was searched several times."
The accident scene was in sight of several homes, although the area becomes remote after that. Scarinza said she did not seek help from any of the homeowners, so it may be that she accepted a ride somewhere, but, he said, "there is no indication that anyone picked her up." There is no evidence of foul play either, he said.

2/21/04 Caledonian Record - Lt. John Scarinza,NHSP: "There is no indication someone picked her up," Scarinza said. "At this point, I have no reason to believe that (she was taken against her will)."

2/21/04 – Daily NH Gazette –Scarinza said police believe Murray got a ride from the accident scene. But Scarinza said searchers found no sign of a struggle at the scene or any other evidence that she has been harmed.

Thanks. I got this after I posted my theories. I'll mull these over.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 05:21 PM
My rank order of possibilities would be: . . .You are a reasoning person and seem to be clear headed. I appreciate your thoughts and look forward to reading your next posts.

crypto6
02-12-2006, 05:30 PM
Crypto...I don't know what either the Haverhill police believed nor the NHSP...I have spent a lot of time looking at statements made on Maura's case and can only offer you the following quotes that I have found about what they had to say about the possibility that Maura was picked up. Notice the last two which appeared in the paper on the same day:

PICKED UP
...........

2/21/04 Caledonian Record - Lt. John Scarinza,NHSP: "There is no indication someone picked her up," Scarinza said. "At this point, I have no reason to believe that (she was taken against her will)."

2/21/04 – Daily NH Gazette –Scarinza said police believe Murray got a ride from the accident scene. But Scarinza said searchers found no sign of a struggle at the scene or any other evidence that she has been harmed.

Certainly nuancing there. Put the two from the Gazette together: she got a ride and was not harmed at that time. Then Scarinza says in the Caledonian Record there's no evidence to believe the Haverhill police's supposition which forms the first contention of the combo.
I think he's trying to be clever in saying "The NHSP and Haverhill police assume she got a ride and was not harmed at that time, but there’s no solid evidence to back that up", or possibly there is evidence they are withholding that even confirming or denying such would compromise the investigation.

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the video! Unfortunately I can't see videos on my computer (some kind of conflict) but I can hear them. I've listened to this twice.

I have another question.....

Why would Maura turn down the ride/assistance from the bus driver that lived right there, yet accept a ride from another stranger that happened down the road? This does NOT compute for me.

Personally I think there was someone in the car with her that "hid" when the guy stopped.... did the man go around the car? Could he really tell if she was alone?

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 05:34 PM
Also I specifically read that Maura had told the bus driver that stopped, that she had called AAA - did she really? Was there any record on her phone?

crypto6
02-12-2006, 05:46 PM
Crypto...I don't know what either the Haverhill police believed nor the NHSP...I have spent a lot of time looking at statements made on Maura's case and can only offer you the following quotes that I have found about what they had to say about the possibility that Maura was picked up. Notice the last two which appeared in the paper on the same day:

PICKED UP

.................snip

2/21/04 Caledonian Record - Lt. John Scarinza,NHSP: "There is no indication someone picked her up," Scarinza said. "At this point, I have no reason to believe that (she was taken against her will)."

2/21/04 – Daily NH Gazette –Scarinza said police believe Murray got a ride from the accident scene. But Scarinza said searchers found no sign of a struggle at the scene or any other evidence that she has been harmed.
Putting all of these, plus the judge's ruling in a context where all the statements are true, or if not true, have been falsified to protect the investigation, here's what I come up with:
LE knows she was picked up and that some criminal activity has occurred. The fact that she was picked up was falsified and the case was being falsely classified as "Missing Person" in order to protect the knowledge that LE had evidence of the criminal activity. This was unmasked at the judge's ruling.

Opinions??

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 05:56 PM
Maybe the reporter(s) got the info wrong? Sadly sometimes they can't even spell the victim's name right!

murraydwyer
02-12-2006, 06:13 PM
The bus driver did say that Maura said she called AAA...her cell phone had no service in that spot and no, as far as we've been able to determine there is no record of a call to AAA.

The bus driver also said that Maura refused help...


Butch and Barbara Atwood are from Raynham and Taunton, respectively. They consider Haverhill much safer than where they grew up in Southeastern Massachusetts.
‘‘I might be afraid if I saw Butch. He's 350 pounds and has this mustache,'' Barbara Atwood said. Patriot Ledger 2/28/04

One of the things we've found in our research is that you never know what you will find online:


Major incidents in 2003 included 31 felony cases sent to the County Attorneys office; there are 11 registered sex offenders living in our Town, 18 inactive files. Town of Haverhill Budget Committee minutes 1/19/04 - Chief of Police Jeffery Williams (these minutes don’t appear to be available online any longer)

There are still 11 registered sex offenders in the three zip codes I found for the area in close proximity to where Maura disappeared. In Wells River about five or six miles away there are 5 registered offenders (remember these are only the known sex offenders). While these numbers are not staggering, according to a former policeman I know, they are very high when you consider that these two towns combined have a population of just over 5,000. I honestly am not sure whether MA and NH lists are similar in the composition of their lists, but I just checked all of the zip codes in my town which has a population of about 54,000 plus...it is a very diverse town with a broad socio economic base....there are 12 registered (level three) sex offenders....and I have no idea what 18 inactive cases means....so it would appear that Maura's chance of being picked up by someone who was less than desirable would appear to be possible. Registered sex offenders within 10 miles of Haverhill, NH population 5,000 plus/16...my town population 54,000 plus/12.

docwho3
02-12-2006, 07:27 PM
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=849167&postcount=76

This might help. Evidently someone ran a test to see if coverage was available.

petra
02-12-2006, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the video! Unfortunately I can't see videos on my computer (some kind of conflict) but I can hear them. I've listened to this twice.

I have another question.....

Why would Maura turn down the ride/assistance from the bus driver that lived right there, yet accept a ride from another stranger that happened down the road? This does NOT compute for me.

Personally I think there was someone in the car with her that "hid" when the guy stopped.... did the man go around the car? Could he really tell if she was alone?
Do you mean someone she knew or stranger threatening her?

As I understand, the car was found locked when LE got there..is that still the current believe?

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 07:46 PM
Ok... You're Maura. You've had an accident and driven your car off the road. You try to call and there is no cell service. Its 7-7:30pm on February 9th. It has to be cold and getting dark.

A big scary guy stops and asks if you need help. He scares you so you tell him no, that you've called AAA. He leaves and you see him pull into the driveway just ahead.

Now you are really scared (you didn't know he lived there). You decide to quickly gather your things and take off and look for help (or get a cell signal). You are a runner, in pretty good shape, so off you trot. Not in the direction you just came from, but forward.

Although you are familiar with the area for some reason (maybe disorientated because of the accident) you head off into an unpopulated area... its cold, its now dark, and you are in the middle of nowhere.

Someone, in the dark, sees you clear enough to recognise you later (I'm sorry I have my doubts about this ID but I'm going with it).

You see a light across a field and decide to head towards it. Problem is, in the dark, you fall into a creek/hole/other hazard and can't get out.
or
Do you accept a ride from a stranger?
or
Is it possible there was a hit and run accident and Maura was hit by a passing car?
or
Could Maura have knocked on someone's door and that led to a "bad thing" happening?
or
Maura made good her "planned" escape. (personally I think this is very unlikely)

All the possibilities are still open

*****************
The above is purely speculation on my part.

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 07:50 PM
Do you mean someone she knew or stranger threatening her?

As I understand, the car was found locked when LE got there..is that still the current believe?
Its my understanding that it is assumed that Maura was alone in the car when she had the accident. What if she wasn't? What if she did it on purpose because someone was in the car with her? What if they hid behind the car when the bus driver stopped?

Could this be someone she knew... yes... could it be a hitchhiker she picked up... yes (unlikely though)... could she have been abducted and forced to drive somewhere... I think its possible. Although there is no indication that she stopped maybe she did to go to the bathroom, or to buy a drink, and someone got in the car with her then?

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 08:12 PM
Docwho can you use your sleuthing abilities and find out what the weather was like in Haverhill, New Hampshire on the night of February 9, 2004. Was it clear? Was there a full moon? What time was sun set? What was the temp?

The next day what was the weather like?

Please http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

docwho3
02-12-2006, 08:38 PM
Docwho can you use your sleuthing abilities and find out what the weather was like in Haverhill, New Hampshire on the night of February 9, 2004. Was it clear? Was there a full moon? What time was sun set? What was the temp?

The next day what was the weather like?

Please http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gifI think the person you need to speak to on that one is hydemi who I believe has looked into that one already.
. . .And it appears the temperature that evening was in fact in the 30's not ten or twelve as reported--so her going on foot would be more credible . . .http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=957424&postcount=22

Edited to add:Try these two info pages:
http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KNHLISBO1&month=2&day=9&year=2004

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KNHLISBO1&month=2&day=10&year=2004

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 08:43 PM
Thanks Docwho! Hopefully Hydemi will pop by the thread and also tell us if it was clear.... and moonlit.

I've been on New Hampshire road at night and they are DARK. Unless the contractor almost ran her over, and she was in the bright lights of his vehicle, I honestly don't see how he can be sure it was Maura.

petra
02-12-2006, 08:49 PM
Thanks Docwho! Hopefully Hydemi will pop by the thread and also tell us if it was clear.... and moonlit.

I've been on New Hampshire road at night and they are DARK. Unless the contractor almost ran her over, and she was in the bright lights of his vehicle, I honestly don't see how he can be sure it was Maura.
check this out, i was trying to find out for you at looked what popped up
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=439438

:woohoo:

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 08:55 PM
Petra awesome find!


I can't find records for Haverhill, but at the nearby town of Benton,
NH, the weather on February 9, 2004 was as follows:

13 -- Hi temperature

-2 -- Low temp

overcast

no precipitation

7 inches of snow/ice on the ground


It was a nearly full moon as well.

No info on windspeed, windchill, and the like, however.
Ok it was probably bright out, cold but not bone chilling. It is possible that the contracter could see her, and identify her.

petra
02-12-2006, 08:59 PM
suprised myself...easiest 30 second research i have ever done..also has good info below ad, if ever needed again.

PT-i like were you are going with some of your ideas!

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 09:07 PM
I'm actually not going anywhere Petra... I've just been in New Hampshire, in the dark, in the winter.

I've been a young woman in a car that was disabled on the side of a lonely road.

I've made some of the decisions Maura had to have made.

I find it laughable that anyone would think she would try to kill herself with Tylenol and alchol. I'm not even a nursing student and I know how painful that would be, I also know how long it would take, and the likelihood of completing it before rescue... there are street drugs, available on every campus, that would do the job quicker and easier.

Run away? Maybe... but more likely run TO someone... except its been 2 years so if that's what she was doing she never got there.

As for her parents... I admire their persistence. I understand that LE can't reveal everything but these are her PARENTS and they should know a little more about the investigation than the public does! IMO

Anyway that's just how I'm looking at the details....

docwho3
02-12-2006, 09:11 PM
Thanks Docwho! Hopefully Hydemi will pop by the thread and also tell us if it was clear.... and moonlit.

I've been on New Hampshire road at night and they are DARK. Unless the contractor almost ran her over, and she was in the bright lights of his vehicle, I honestly don't see how he can be sure it was Maura.Unless he stopped . . .for some reason. . . It is one thing I have always thought needed a close look by L.E. But I would be surprised if they have not looked into it already.

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 09:14 PM
I'm sure the contractor has been interviewed many times. Now that we know it was almost a full moon, clear, with snow to reflect the light, I can believe he could see her clearly.

petra
02-12-2006, 09:15 PM
Unless he stopped . . .for some reason. . . It is one thing I have always thought needed a close look by L.E. But I would be surprised if they have not looked into it already.
does anyone have the name of the contractor??

has anyone seen if LE gave poly's to anyone??

thanks

petra
02-12-2006, 09:19 PM
I'm sure the contractor has been interviewed many times. Now that we know it was almost a full moon, clear, with snow to reflect the light, I can believe he could see her clearly.
i was thinking of the report of no footprints..knowing snow (norway, as you know)..in those temps,icy and hard snow...usually easy to walk,jock quick without leaving footprints..esp since she was agile and only 125 ibs.

petra
02-12-2006, 09:21 PM
also, what about taking refuge in the barn until early morn or sometime next day?

PonderingThings
02-12-2006, 09:25 PM
Yes and considering that Maura was a runner, in good shape, she probably wouldn't think twice about setting out on a trek.

It bothers me that the bus driver didn't see her walking on the road - he said he could see the road, and the cars, so wouldn't he see her?

She could have slipped by... or went the other way?

What if she "bumped into" the tow truck driver and he was a "bad guy"? Without a lead there is nothing but "what ifs"

I'm also surprised that the cars that went by, according to the bus driver, didn't come forward and report they saw her. Although the cars could be from anywhere, going to anyplace, they are likely to have been within the surrounding area... you'd think ONE of them would remember seeing Maura on the road? Especially with all the publicity? That one boggles me.

KatherineQ
02-12-2006, 09:43 PM
Yes and considering that Maura was a runner, in good shape, she probably wouldn't think twice about setting out on a trek.

It bothers me that the bus driver didn't see her walking on the road - he said he could see the road, and the cars, so wouldn't he see her?

She could have slipped by... or went the other way?

What if she "bumped into" the tow truck driver and he was a "bad guy"? Without a lead there is nothing but "what ifs"

I'm also surprised that the cars that went by, according to the bus driver, didn't come forward and report they saw her. Although the cars could be from anywhere, going to anyplace, they are likely to have been within the surrounding area... you'd think ONE of them would remember seeing Maura on the road? Especially with all the publicity? That one boggles me.

That really boggles me, too, that more people didn't see her. At night, a young woman walking alone down a lonely very cold stretch of highway would have been memorable. Very memorable. The fact that no one except ONE guy claims to have seen her makes it very suspect that she walked any real distance along that highway, certainly not the miles to get to the next town.

Masterj
02-12-2006, 10:11 PM
I'm sure the contractor has been interviewed many times. Now that we know it was almost a full moon, clear, with snow to reflect the light, I can believe he could see her clearly.
I'm still not convinced he could see her clearly. I've traveled this road at night and even with the bright moon, it is extremely dark. Don't forget, this is a heavily wooded, mountainous area.

hydemi
02-12-2006, 11:38 PM
we have been through this on the Maura site.

While some don't believe it, Anne who lives nearby in Vermont has confirmed on the Maura site that the temperatures warmed up in N Country on 2/9/04 and I checked wunderground finding the same pattern in all the area towns.

The Google link is inadequate--sorry Google isn't right about everything any more than Wikipedia is.

The wunderground.com site provided by SearcherMe on the Maura site on, I believe, 12-18-05 (you can look it up) shows that it was really cold on 2/8 in the area, still cold on the morning of 2/9 but warmed up twenty degress in the afternoon. By the time the family got there on Wednesday it was brutally cold again with huge wind chill, and Sharon (Lt now Cpt Rausch's Mother) wrote in her notes that it was 12 degrees.

Anne says a light snow had fallen and that it was clear. i think the big issue at road level is that with snowbanks piled up against the dark forest background you can see the road pretty well on foot.

The contractor sighting describes Maura as avoiding his car and ducking down a side road, hurrying at a fast clip--near the 112 and 116 merge and split four to five miles east of the Swiftwater crash scene.

Both Mr. Murray and Lt Scarinza initially believed and accepted his story (see the news articles in May 2004 and Fred's letter to NH Governor Benson posted on the Maura site).

Obviously there is suspicion of the contractor's story now, but it is two years later and he still hasn't been charged with anything if he is a suspect.

CyberLaw
02-12-2006, 11:57 PM
For starters: You usually require evidence of a crime has been committed before an criminal complaint can be laid. You can't just "assume" that a crime has been committed, or "think" or "feel" a crime has been committed, you have to know from the evidence.

There has been convictions without a body, but with a lot of "circumstantial" and forensic evidence.

So before someone like a "contractor or bus driver can be charged with anything, you need evidence of a crime being committed and evidence to prosecuate with.

So, since no crime has been committed, I find it "odd" that some people want others to be charged with a crime. Or that LE has any "evidence" that a crime has occurred and what evidence that supports a "charge" and meets the "charging" provisions.

Usually when LE charges someone with a crime, they have a " all of their ducks" in a row and most likely have "consulted" with the "State" as to the veractiy of the evidence.

So until there is a crime, or evidence of a crime, and evidence against person or persons unknown, it sitll is a missing person case.

As it should be.........

May I remind people, that with the "Runaway" Bride, her picture was all over the place and there was not even one sighting of her.

I do think that Maura made it to the other town I think it is called Lincoln.

Not a hard trek for a runner.....not at all.

I am sure there is a bus station there in addition to a phone......so Maura could take the bus and/or use the phone to have some one pick her up.

BTW, if Maura was such a neat person, I cannot under stand why, if someone is as neat as her that they would not have time during two weeks to put away clohtes People who are neat want things in order....not all over the place for the sake of a bit of work.

She did party the Saturday before she left, so if she had time to party and socialize, she had plenty of time to put away a few boxes and clothes in a small dorm room. It is not like she moved a house and it would take a week or two to put away "all of the rooms" in the house.

College students take what they need, so it would not be that much.

hydemi
02-13-2006, 12:01 AM
If you read the Case Info section on the Maura website you realize the onus of this failure has to lie first on officer Cecil Smith who showed up at scene at 7.46pm, found the empty car, went to Atwood's and knocked on the bus door where Atwood says he was completing paperwork.

Atwood told him that a young girl had been in the car, and they both according to Atwood drove around the local roads mostly back west toward Haverhill looking for her.

So Smith at least knew from Atwood that a girl was missing, even though the car was registered to Fred Murray.

He evidently didn't do anything about it the next day, Feb 10th, until later in the day someone from Haverhill PD called Fred Murray in Weymouth and got Fred Jr. the first family member to learn of Maura being missing--not until after 4pm the following day nearly twenty four hours later.

Cecil Smith initially denied knowing or did not acknowledge to the family that he knew Maura had been driving the car, towed to a local garage, LaVoie's.

There is currently some puzzlement on the Maura site about another report heard on scanner radio closer to 7pm that evening (back to 2/9) which was heard both by a local person/poster using the screen name Anne & her husband, which said the driver left the accident scene on 112 in a "private vehicle." No one is sure when this happened or if Cecil Smith had heard it and justified not doing any full scale search on 2/10 because of it.

PonderingThings
02-13-2006, 06:40 AM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif <<<This is how I feel when I read that some of you want to have the witnesses who have come forward charged! All they did, as far as we know, is get involved. Is there a shred of evidence that any of them did anything to Maura?

I was surprised that others didn't call in to say they saw Maura... now I suspect I know why they didn't.

Peabody
02-13-2006, 08:39 AM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif <<<This is how I feel when I read that some of you want to have the witnesses who have come forward charged! All they did, as far as we know, is get involved. Is there a shred of evidence that any of them did anything to Maura?

I was surprised that others didn't call in to say they saw Maura... now I suspect I know why they didn't.
PonderingThings,

I suspect <no pun intended> that there is some confusion regarding your statement. I have never read that anyone, be it family, friend, or poster WANTS any WITNESS CHARGED.

I am quite certain that what they WANT is INVESTIGATION, and in line with your screen name, they have 'pondered' why it isn't so.

Please feel free to direct me to any post that shows me to be mistaken.

KatherineQ
02-13-2006, 10:33 AM
Hydemi - I've pondered one of your points a lot - about the police being unaware that the car was being driven by a "young girl" until much later.

Words are so tricky!! ;D

Is it possible that the cop knew the car was being driven by a young woman, (who is in fact the age to graduate from college, and is tall), but it was the "young girl" terminology that is the sticking point and caused his initial reaction of surprise?

I would be surprised to hear she was a young girl, too, and would probably react that way. What?? It was driven by a young girl? We were looking for a woman in her early 20's - something like that?

Sometimes when you look so closely at each conversation they seem to take on a different meaning than intended.

Or not, just a thought.

czechmate7
02-13-2006, 10:54 AM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif <<<This is how I feel when I read that some of you want to have the witnesses who have come forward charged! All they did, as far as we know, is get involved. Is there a shred of evidence that any of them did anything to Maura?

I was surprised that others didn't call in to say they saw Maura... now I suspect I know why they didn't.
PonderingThings... I think I understand what your saying...can you imagine if someone came forward and said they helped Maura get away? Look at the SBD...some people have posted their suspicions about him because he was "the last person to see Maura". Nowdays they can charge a person with murder w/o a body....being a witness can have very serious conseqences!

Peabody
02-13-2006, 11:48 AM
Hydemi - I've pondered one of your points a lot - about the police being unaware that the car was being driven by a "young girl" until much later.

Words are so tricky!! ;D

Is it possible that the cop knew the car was being driven by a young woman, (who is in fact the age to graduate from college, and is tall), but it was the "young girl" terminology that is the sticking point and caused his initial reaction of surprise?

I would be surprised to hear she was a young girl, too, and would probably react that way. What?? It was driven by a young girl? We were looking for a woman in her early 20's - something like that?

Sometimes when you look so closely at each conversation they seem to take on a different meaning than intended.

Or not, just a thought.
Although SBD accounts in the media are not consistent - do not know IF this is due to the media accounts or the reports from the SBD - ONE CONSISTENT ITEM that he reported to police, media and family is the driver was "a young girl about 20 years old"

Therefore, there should have been no confusion as to the gender and age of Maura Murray.

According to Sharon's post on www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com/), she spoke extensively with Sgt Smith on 2/10 (24 hours after he found the abandoned car). He told her that he assumed the car was driven by Fred Murray because it was registered to him (as determined when he ran the plates); that he also assumed that Fred Murray had left the area in another vehicle because the area is a tourist/sking resort and often when autos break down or slide off of the road, the driver leaves with another party traveling in the same group. She states that she questioned him extensively and that he made no mention of knowing a female was the driver (note: according to SBD, he did know the driver was Maura). She also reports that he told her there was only one set of footprints leading from the driver's side of the car, confirming the driver was alone.

That Fred Murray was the driver and alone may indeed have been Sgt Smith's initial/original assumption/deduction. However, according to Sharon, he also told her that he went to SBD's home and inquired about the driver; that he and SBD drove around looking for the driver and because they found no one, that confirmed his assumption that the driver had left in another car traveling in a group. Therefore, based on SBD's reports, it is only logical to assume that by the time they were doing their drives up and down the road, he knew to look for a "young" female, not 61 year old Fred Murray.

Because the SBD has repeatedly said he knew the driver was "a young girl about 20 years old" and alone, then Sgt Smith, while perhaps not lying to Sharon on 2/10, certainly was not forthcoming, even if it was only because he knew that he and his department had made an error in judgement in not looking for Maura and putting a BOL for her immmediately.

Therein lies MY CRITICISM: we are all subject to mistakes and errors. But to intentionally continue errors (by not investigating) for weeks, months, and now years is inexcusable. Why not admit to the first mistake and do what is necessary to admit/correct the beginning unintentional error?

It is my opinion that Sgt Smith did not intentionally intend to be a party to Maura's missing, but the decision(s) of his police department have played a huge role in the inept/negligent investigation .

Websleuthers, what do you think?

czechmate7
02-13-2006, 12:11 PM
I have a question; maybe Cyberlaw can answer (since he is in the legal profession) or anyone with the knowledge, regarding Fred Murray's not being able to review or obtain documents...Is this a standard practice (or law) that family is not privileged to such information? Does it matter if LE believes foul play is involved? Or is every missing person case treated equally ?? I guess I'm just trying to figure out why he can't have access vs another missing persons family having access??

KatherineQ
02-13-2006, 12:37 PM
Although SBD accounts in the media are not consistent - do not know IF this is due to the media accounts or the reports from the SBD - ONE CONSISTENT ITEM that he reported to police, media and family is the driver was "a young girl about 20 years old"

Therefore, there should have been no confusion as to the gender and age of Maura Murray.

According to Sharon's post on www.mauramurray.com (http://www.mauramurray.com/), she spoke extensively with Sgt Smith on 2/10 (24 hours after he found the abandoned car). He told her that he assumed the car was driven by Fred Murray because it was registered to him (as determined when he ran the plates); that he also assumed that Fred Murray had left the area in another vehicle because the area is a tourist/sking resort and often when autos break down or slide off of the road, the driver leaves with another party traveling in the same group. She states that she questioned him extensively and that he made no mention of knowing a female was the driver (note: according to SBD, he did know the driver was Maura). She also reports that he told her there was only one set of footprints leading from the driver's side of the car, confirming the driver was alone.

That Fred Murray was the driver and alone may indeed have been Sgt Smith's initial/original assumption/deduction. However, according to Sharon, he also told her that he went to SBD's home and inquired about the driver; that he and SBD drove around looking for the driver and because they found no one, that confirmed his assumption that the driver had left in another car traveling in a group. Therefore, based on SBD's reports, it is only logical to assume that by the time they were doing their drives up and down the road, he knew to look for a "young" female, not 61 year old Fred Murray.

Because the SBD has repeatedly said he knew the driver was "a young girl about 20 years old" and alone, then Sgt Smith, while perhaps not lying to Sharon on 2/10, certainly was not forthcoming, even if it was only because he knew that he and his department had made an error in judgement in not looking for Maura and putting a BOL for her immmediately.

Therein lies MY CRITICISM: we are all subject to mistakes and errors. But to intentionally continue errors (by not investigating) for weeks, months, and now years is inexcusable. Why not admit to the first mistake and do what is necessary to admit/correct the beginning unintentional error?

It is my opinion that Sgt Smith did not intentionally intend to be a party to Maura's missing, but the decision(s) of his police department have played a huge role in the inept/negligent investigation .

Websleuthers, what do you think?

Peabody - I read your post, and agree that there were mistakes and errors made initially. If I had the energy I could go back and do what the family and you have done, which is to painstakingly pick apart every shred of evidence of what happened from the moment she crashed the car on Feb. 9.

To me, I'm in the here and now, and that seems more important.

Here and now, LE has information that is relevant, and a judge has ruled it can be withheld.

This case doesn't appear necessarily an unsolved mystery. It's quite possible LE knows EXACTLY what happened, and they are withholding it and a separate court has agreed that's appropriate.

That's what makes me pull my hair out, not whether someone knew or admitted they knew Maura was driving the car, etc.

Peabody
02-13-2006, 12:40 PM
I have a question; maybe Cyberlaw can answer (since he is in the legal profession) or anyone with the knowledge, regarding Fred Murray's not being able to review or obtain documents...Is this a standard practice (or law) that family is not privileged to such information? Does it matter if LE believes foul play is involved? Or is every missing person case treated equally ?? I guess I'm just trying to figure out why he can't have access vs another missing persons family having access??
I am no attorney;

Like Helena Murray, I have worked in the legal profession for many years.

FYI: I also find it interesting that Sharon, the mother of Maura's fiance also worked (works?) for attorneys.

While Sharon does not post here, perhaps Helena will offer her insight.


While there are laws that dictate what must be released, what is often disclosed or kept secret by prosectors/LE offices is often as a decision based on their individual personalities - not necessarily dictated by law. They will make decisions to keep information private UNLESS CHALLENGED in court. Most times, the challengers are the media in high profile cases because the average person just does not have the funds to pursue information through legal channels. One attorney that I worked for who is now a Common Pleas Judge told me at the end of the OJ Trial, "If you want justice, do not depend on the American jucidical system. There are too many factors: ability of judges, attorneys - both defending and prosecuting - as well as the bias of the jurrors." While I agreed with him, I have never truly gotten over the fact that a seasoned and reputable attorney would have the same opinion. Quite unnerving and scary - hope I never find myself in court! Sorry, I ramble.

The prosecutors I have worked with often share info with victims and or their families; occasionally, they do not. I do not know what motivates their decisions.

Of course, once charges are filed, all evidence must be shared with the defendant.

Therefore, I am not sure your question has a clear cut answer. But, the superior court of Grafton Co NH is backing NH LE for withholding info from Fred Murray, although he has appealed the decision to the NH Supreme Court.

However, there are certain documents and information that are public record: specifically, 911 calls, and emergency time logs.

Do you recall listening to the OJ and Kobe Bryant 911 calls?

This is what amazes me - even this information has not been released to Fred Murray, and was denied in his recent law suit. I do not understand how the court could have refused this information.

I have read the entire law suit by Fred Murray, the subsequent answer to his suit by NH Attorney General and the complete decision by NH Judge.

I do not have a link for these documents, and I do not currently have the time to type them, but if any are interested, please let it be known by a public post, please no PM's; If enough are interested, I will see what I can do........after all these are PUBLIC DOCUMENTS, just as the 911 calls and emergency time logs that NH WILL NOT RELEASE to Fred Murray. He still does not know if the time that Maura's accident was first reported by 911 was 7:00 PM or 7:30 PM - meaning that instead of vanishing in 10-15 minutes, she may have been on the side of the road for 40-45 minutes.


Also, a year ago, when Fred met with the governor and subsequently the Attorney General and other LE officials, they promised him a Victim's Advocate to answer any of his questions.

He indeed was assigned a victim's advocate. I was priviledged that a family member shared an email with me in which she (the Victim's Advocate) told Fred Murray that LE would not answer any of his questions. The questions that I was privey to were such things as "have you followed up on this tip" "did you follow up on the reporting there was a sighting of Maura?" Granted, IF they are of the opinion that Maura was/is a runaway, they would not report to Fred if they had confirmed a sighting, but to refuse to say if they followed up on a tip regarding foul play blows my mind and seems most callous, especially when they are telling the media they are spending 1000's of man hours on this case.

Also, on the day of the law suit, the representative from NH Attorney General's Office announced to the press that there had been a recent search for Maura which had not produced any results.

Fred Murray learned of this information through his attorney who happpened to read the article.

Please explain to me why they cannot tell Fred Murray, or Maura's mother or someone in her family that they did a search instead of telling the press first?

Perplexed as to the actions of NH LE

Supportive of the Murray Family

Praying for Maura

.

czechmate7
02-13-2006, 12:51 PM
Peabody,
Thanks for the explanation.... I was under the impression that the answer was black or white , but evidently there seems to be a lot of grey matter involved!!

Peabody
02-13-2006, 01:31 PM
Peabody,
Thanks for the explanation.... I was under the impression that the answer was black or white , but evidently there seems to be a lot of grey matter involved!!
I am sure that some matters regarding the releasing of info are black and white; however, as you say, may are also in a very gray area.

I hope that an attorney who has passed the bar in the USA will offer their legal expertise.


.

mocity
02-13-2006, 03:19 PM
More than one of us has taken the time to explain why some of us don't take family assessment that a missing person would "never runaway" as an absolute fact. They even provided examples of parents and family being wrong in thinking their loved one would "never do that" and yet you post asking why we don't. That sounds like your mind is just made up, end of story.

Ok, that's your right. No one is calling you a name over it or telling you you can't post. And since I now see you have your mind made up I probably won't even bother responding to any of your similar posts in future.

As to the disagreements that seem annoying to you: People do disagree and this thread includes case discussion. It is in the nature of things we won't all always agree on things. At least no one is being called names here and people get to post their points about the case. I might disagree with some posters very much but there isn't anyone yet that I would,if I could, push a button and ban them from posting. I might agree with others very much but I would not want only those to be posting either. The world needs diverse thoughts.
I could care less about whether or not you "even bother responding to any of my similar posts in the future". I didn't ask you to. As you said the world needs diverse thoughts. I have NOT made up my mind either way and didn't say that I have. I tend to believe she met with foul play but as I pointed out I have no idea what happened and neither do you. I was merely pointing out that the tone to this discussion seems to be disrespectful.

nnglas
02-13-2006, 05:33 PM
For all of the posters who think that Maura met with foul play.....I am curious as to what you make of the phone call to her boyfriends cell phone. I just wonder how that jives with the foul play theory.

Masterj
02-13-2006, 06:12 PM
For all of the posters who think that Maura met with foul play.....I am curious as to what you make of the phone call to her boyfriends cell phone. I just wonder how that jives with the foul play theory.
I am not sure if she met with foul play or fell victim to the elements after becoming disoriented and possibly injured in the accident. As for the call to her boyfriend's cell phone, I am not sure. He swears it was her, but the call cannot be traced. We can only tell it came from a calling card, but it is impossible to trace beyond that. If she disappeared under foul play, there is the possibility someone kidnapped her and she made a quick call to him. Or if she was lost and disoriented maybe she called him, although I know cell coverage is pretty nonexistent up there.

I know he is certain Maura called him, but there is also the possibility it wasn't her at all. Of course if you believe her purposely disappearing theory, maybe she called him out of regret if she missed him and was second guessing herself.

Here is my question that perhaps the Murray family or someone close to them can answer - did Maura typically use the calling cards with her cell phone or were those for her dorm room or pay phones?

Peabody
02-13-2006, 08:57 PM
I am not sure if she met with foul play or fell victim to the elements after becoming disoriented and possibly injured in the accident. As for the call to her boyfriend's cell phone, I am not sure. He swears it was her, but the call cannot be traced. We can only tell it came from a calling card, but it is impossible to trace beyond that. If she disappeared under foul play, there is the possibility someone kidnapped her and she made a quick call to him. Or if she was lost and disoriented maybe she called him, although I know cell coverage is pretty nonexistent up there.

I know he is certain Maura called him, but there is also the possibility it wasn't her at all. Of course if you believe her purposely disappearing theory, maybe she called him out of regret if she missed him and was second guessing herself.

Here is my question that perhaps the Murray family or someone close to them can answer - did Maura typically use the calling cards with her cell phone or were those for her dorm room or pay phones?
Please understand that this prepaid calling card call had to have originated on a land line such as a pay phone, or perhaps from a phone in a motel/hotel room where she was staying, or even from a residence where she was being held against her will.

It is a fact that the mystery call WAS NOT MADE FROM A CELL PHONE - the fiance's cell phone bill notes all calls as cell or land. The call in question is listed as a call from a certain ph # which when called gives one a recording something similiar to: "You have reached the number for a pre-paid calling card service. This number does not accept incoming calls."

It is certainly a possibility that the call was not from Maura.

But, in regards to your theory about her having regrets, it is my opinion that IF she was missing him and regretting her decision after only 36 hours [which was the approximate time frame from her missing until Lt (now Cpt) Rausch received the mystery call], she more than likley would have called again by now.

His description of the call was "chilling" - and also described as being very soft in volume; very short call with muffled sobs, labored breathing and deep, wet sniffs. This description could fit both a disoriented Maura holed up in an abandoned home OR an abducted Maura with only a few minutes to try for help who mistakenly called her fiance instead of 911.

The only thing is that considering the weather conditions on the day this call came through - the temps were very cold - and that she would have been in the wilderness, why has there been no body found?

This leads us back to either she was deliberately running away; she was suicidal (again no body - seems unlikely she would not want her loved ones to be able to bury her) or some harm has befallen her.



.

hydemi
02-13-2006, 09:16 PM
Is important to those of us who have followed the unfolding tale of Maura's disappearance for two years now.

Peabody has given here the best account of the puzzling frustrating experience endured by the family on Feb 11 when told that the delayed search for Maura had to do with mix-ups or screw-ups or who knows what kind of error or perhaps just plain confusion on the part of the Haverhill police.

While Sgt Smith was the primary actor, there were others who had some idea that a young girl or young woman had gone missing on Monday night 2/9/04--
the police chief Jeff Williams and a NHSP officer named Monahan.

We are waiting on mauramurray.com to hear more from a local & poster named Anne about a scanner radio message of someone leaving "in a private vehicle" from an accident scene on 112 near Haverhill between 7pm and 7.30--a half an hour earlier than the timeline in the Case Info section of the Maura Murray website--which could explain the failure of local & state police to mount a full scale search for the missing woman on Tuesday 2/10/04.

So the questions posed here are quite valid.

Also one explanation for Maura not being seen on foot on 112 until the alleged sighting by the contractor is that she might have gone on Bradley Hill Rd to 116 which merges back to 112 about four to five miles east of the accident site (see your Mapquest maps) right near where the sighting occurred.

The contractor's name is known but being kept out of the media.