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View Full Version : VA VA - Annandale - White Female 245UFVA, ~60, "NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin", Dec'96


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PonderingThings
02-20-2006, 07:00 PM
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

Unidentified White Female

* Discovered on December 18, 1996 in Annandale, Fairfax County, Virginia.
* Estimated Date of Death: December 17, 1996
* Cause of death was suicide

Vital Statistics

* Estimated age: 60 years old
* Approximate Height and Weight: 5'0"; 157 lbs.
* Distinguishing Characteristics: Auburn/red, curly hair. She had an 8 inch scar on her abdomen, probably from C-section. Fingernails painted red.
* Dentals: Dental chart is available.
* Clothing: Teal, all weather Eddie Baur hooded jacket, (size M). Navy blue Classiques Entier sweater (size L); red Classiques Entier sweater (size XL), red Classiques Entier sleeveless silk shirt (size Petite L), navy blue Classiques Entier knit wool pants (size L). Black loafers (size 7M), knee high stockings, white support bra, white "Fruite of the Loom" underpants (size 6). Her clothes may have come from an upscale store such as Saks Fifth Avenue. She also had a green knapsack.
* Jewelry: She wore bifocals with translucent frames, two clip-on earrings, a small gold women's Guess watch with mesh band and a 14 karat gold ring with 4 jade stones, a metal bead chain with medic alert "NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin."
* Other: Fingerprints/DNA available

Case History
This unidentified woman committed suicide on December 18, 1996. She left two 50$ bills one for the coroner and one for the cemetery with the same typed note:
Deceased by own hand...prefer no autopsy. Please order cremation with funds provided. Thank you, Jane Doe
She was located inside Pleasant Valley Memorial Park, a small cemetery in Annandale, Virginia. There was a clear plastic sheet on the ground. Next to the sheet was an 8" Christmas tree, adorned with gold balls and red ribbons.
In addition to drinking brandy (she had a 0.14 blood-alcohol level) and swallowing Valium, the victim had two empty juice bottles and a new roll of masking tape in her knapsack. She had no receipts in her pockets to enable police to trace her movements. She had a portable tape player, the headphones over her ears and had listened to a recording of comedians Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner doing their "2000 year old man" routine. She had placed a plastic bag over her head and tied it off with tape. This made her suffocate.
The site she chose, Pleasant Valley, probably wouldn't be known to a drifter. She lay down near the section of the cemetery where infants are buried, but not near any particular grave, and most of the stones nearby were fairly recent.

PonderingThings
02-20-2006, 07:15 PM
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1699dfca.html

Susan J. Bernier
Missing since August 19, 1996 from San Diego, San Diego County, California
Classification: Missing

Vital Statistics

* Date Of Birth: December 26, 1931
* Age at Time of Disappearance: 64 years old
* Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'3"; 90 lbs.
* Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Black hair; hazel eyes.
* Marks, Scars: Discoloration on her left ankle.
* Clothing: Black windbreaker jacket, white shoes.
* Dentals: Not Available.

Circumstances of Disappearance
Bernier was last seen in San Diego, California on August 19, 1996.

******************
Possible match?
1. There is a pretty close resemblence between Susan and Jane Doe - especially if you think of Susan with a little more weight on her.
2. Susan was only 90lbs in August of 1996 - Jane Doe was 156 pounds in December 1996 This, and the hair color, are the biggest descrepancies


This is my theory. Jane Doe did not want to be identified. Disappear 6 months before, put on weight, change your hair color, go to an unknown location on the other side of the country, dress differently (no info if this is true).

Its possible that someone with either saved money, or selling of jewellery might have been able to travel in comfort for 6 months......

Unfortunately the profiles of the other missing women don't give much to compare to.

docwho3
02-20-2006, 09:39 PM
http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/245ufva.html (http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/245ufva.html)

Unidentified White Female. . . The short hair, as it is pictured, makes me think of a recovering cancer patient. I wonder if it is possible that she was a patient who had a relapse?

Mr. E
02-20-2006, 10:19 PM
What if she were Marjorie West?

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/799dfpa.html

Sorry, but 60-ish red-haired ladies make me think of Marjorie West.

gardenmom
02-21-2006, 02:21 AM
The short hair, as it is pictured, makes me think of a recovering cancer patient. I wonder if it is possible that she was a patient who had a relapse?
YOu may be right. I notice she had a DNR medic alert braclet. Sounds like she was tired of fighting the fight. She seems like someone who would have been missed by someone. I wonder how she got there if she wasn't from the area. How close was a bus station, railroad. She reminds me so much of a favorite aunt, who passed away a couple of years ago.

docwho3
02-21-2006, 02:50 AM
YOu may be right. I notice she had a DNR medic alert braclet. Sounds like she was tired of fighting the fight. She seems like someone who would have been missed by someone. I wonder how she got there if she wasn't from the area. How close was a bus station, railroad. She reminds me so much of a favorite aunt, who passed away a couple of years ago.When I saw her face I felt sorry for her. I wished there was a way to have given her a hug and made everything alright for her. Sadly there are just times when it doesn't work out that way in this life.

Richard
02-21-2006, 11:43 AM
.....This is my theory. Jane Doe did not want to be identified. Disappear 6 months before, put on weight, change your hair color, go to an unknown location on the other side of the country, dress differently (no info if this is true).
Its possible that someone with either saved money, or selling of jewellery might have been able to travel in comfort for 6 months.......
Both are intriguing cases. While they might match, given your theory, I would tend to doubt that anyone would plan a suicide so far into the future. I am not a psycholigist, and do not have any definite statistics on suicides, but from what I have seen of them, I would think that the majority of them take their own lives within a short time of the onset of a bout of depression, and that the act is almost a "spur of the moment" type thing.

I agree that the dead woman did not want her identity known, for some reason. It was probably related to factors which contributed to her depression - perhaps a feeling of abandonment by family or friends. As such, she may have simply chosen a place totally unrelated in any way to her past. On the other hand, could she have perhaps been seeking the grave of a baby which she gave birth to many years earlier?

PonderingThings
02-21-2006, 04:08 PM
Both are intriguing cases. While they might match, given your theory, I would tend to doubt that anyone would plan a suicide so far into the future. I am not a psycholigist, and do not have any definite statistics on suicides, but from what I have seen of them, I would think that the majority of them take their own lives within a short time of the onset of a bout of depression, and that the act is almost a "spur of the moment" type thing.

I agree that the dead woman did not want her identity known, for some reason. It was probably related to factors which contributed to her depression - perhaps a feeling of abandonment by family or friends. As such, she may have simply chosen a place totally unrelated in any way to her past. On the other hand, could she have perhaps been seeking the grave of a baby which she gave birth to many years earlier? Richard I have had 3 people, who were in my family, who committed suicide, who CAREFULLY planned every step. One kept a diary and it took them 2 years to "stage" the perfect exit. So... based on my own personal experience, I have to disagree with you about the possibilities. However, you might be right about this particular woman.

P.S. In case any of you are wondering these were "in-laws" (from various families who married into my family).

PonderingThings
02-21-2006, 04:13 PM
What if she were Marjorie West?

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/799dfpa.html

Sorry, but 60-ish red-haired ladies make me think of Marjorie West.
Mr. E awesome find! Side by side comparison of the photos DOES show some resemblence! Imagine if this IS her and she staged the picnic scene from her memory of being abducted at a picnic!

The Christmas tree that she placed in the corner could have represented the upcoming Christmas... or perhaps a "family event"?

Richard
02-21-2006, 10:45 PM
Richard I have had 3 people, who were in my family, who committed suicide, who CAREFULLY planned every step. One kept a diary and it took them 2 years to "stage" the perfect exit. So... based on my own personal experience, I have to disagree with you about the possibilities. However, you might be right about this particular woman....
I am sorry to hear of the tragedies suffered by your family. Suicide is something which I find hard to understand, usually. It so often comes as a surprise to people who knew the person, yet it is usually the result of a deep depression or mental illness.

A friend of mine committed suicide about ten years ago. He had been in a downward spiral of mental illness (schizophrenic) in which he had delusions of people chasing him, "saw" people and things which did not exist, and alternated between being a jovial, friendly guy one minute, and a screaming madman the next. He was committed twice to an institution, but each time released with medications - which he subsequently refused to take. Whether or not he "planned" his death well in advance, or simply reached his final breaking point and went on the spur-of-the moment, is debatable.

I think that the Annandale woman did do at least some planning for her death. She had probably bought her clothes specially for her last night. She had carefully removed any kind of identification, composed a note, laid down plastic to keep from soiling her clothing, went to a remote place, and brought with her a small decorated Christmas tree. The brandy, vallium, plastic bag and tape were all part of her plan, as was the CD player, headphones, and recording.

Those things all meant something to her. I therefor think that the location also meant something special. Did she have a relative, or perhaps a baby buried in that cemetery? Had she visited it before? Was the small Christmas tree actually meant to be placed on a grave? Or had it been given to her by someone special? The description of her clothing would indicate that she had good taste in dress and grooming. The choice of CD recording would indicate that she had a sense of humor and wanted to go out laughing - perhaps at those who would be growing older.

marylandmissing
02-22-2006, 10:09 AM
The short hair, as it is pictured, makes me think of a recovering cancer patient. I wonder if it is possible that she was a patient who had a relapse?
Virginia requires suicide victims to have autopsies and this would have been revealed with this...

PonderingThings
02-22-2006, 03:58 PM
MarylandMissing I thought the same thing as you... and since they didn't mention an illness I figured she didn't have one.

Its not impossible that she didn't "go through" a recent loss of a loved one, with them, hand in hand. The DNR chain could have belonged to the loved one who recently passed away?

************
Richard thank you for your kind words. When my sister in law (latest one) died there was so many great things that were happening... my brother and her had just celebrated their 6th anniversary and were very much in love.

About 4 months earlier they had bought their dream home and had many plans for it. Her beloved daughter was about to enter jr. high, the next month, and they had already gone shopping for new school clothes... she was on an "up".

A mean spirited move by her boss though made her realise the "the pits of depression", which she had suffered from for years, was just around the corner - she couldn't face another down, so she hanged herself while she was still up.

Logical... yes... in a sad, tormented way. She was loved by many, and still is missed terribly http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

docwho3
02-22-2006, 04:38 PM
Virginia requires suicide victims to have autopsies and this would have been revealed with this...I guess I had just not been sure how detailed an autopsy was done. Ok so physical health is ruled out as cause of suicide. That seems to leave depression,grief or other mental/emotional trouble.

annemc2
02-24-2006, 09:51 PM
I thought the same thing when I read about the DNR on the medic alert bracelet - that the woman was terminally ill. Are the results of the autopsy report posted somewhere? The Doe Network site lists cause of death as suicide, but autopsy findings wouldn't necessarily be on the site, perhaps because of privacy issues. And the suggestion about the hair resembling that of a cancer patient was interesting - very observant! Then again, the suggestion about the medic alert bracelet (or was it a necklace?) being a deceased loved ones' is valid also. I also thought that maybe she made sure to wear it (if it was hers) in case she was found before she died, to ensure that she was not saved with heroic measures.

docwho3
02-24-2006, 10:43 PM
I thought the same thing when I read about the DNR on the medic alert bracelet - that the woman was terminally ill. Are the results of the autopsy report posted somewhere? The Doe Network site lists cause of death as suicide, but autopsy findings wouldn't necessarily be on the site, perhaps because of privacy issues. And the suggestion about the hair resembling that of a cancer patient was interesting - very observant! Then again, the suggestion about the medic alert bracelet (or was it a necklace?) being a deceased loved ones' is valid also. I also thought that maybe she made sure to wear it (if it was hers) in case she was found before she died, to ensure that she was not saved with heroic measures.I don't know but there are times with illnesses like leukemia that if someone had been in remission but was just starting to relapse it would not necessarily show up in normal blood work and would require an expensive bone marrow biopsy test to show up. One tell tale sign if this were the case might be a very small scar on the lower back at about hip level where a long instrument was inserted into bone to draw bonemarrow but the scar might easily be missed.

This is why I had wondered if a standard autopsy would find the disease. I don't know what is done in an autopsy or how thorough they would be. I know that in our small area I would be really surprised if they were that thorough.

shadowangel
02-24-2006, 10:59 PM
It may also be possible (even probable) that the med-alert was not hers. For someone to go to the lengths she did to hide her identity, it makes no sense that she would keep something which could probably be traced...Maybe she had just lost someone, maybe her husband of many years, to a disease? She then made the decision that she no longer wanted to go on by herself?

I wonder if the cemetary was checked for (fairly) recent burials of men of approximately the same age as the Jane Doe.

Her choice of listening material may be symbolic of her life at that point, too. "The 2000 Year-Old Man" was a sketch that Reiner and Brooks developed in the late '50s after Brooks had had surgery, and made the comment that he felt like a 2000 year old man. Overhearing this, Riener launched into an interviewer role and began asking Brooks questions about what it was like to be 2000 years old. The skit was first recorded around 1961 and evolved from there. It is still funny today...But the underlying theme is of a complaining old man, thrown aside by a society that has passed him by. One of the lines from the skit is Brooks' "I have 25,000 kids, and not a one writes..."

awagner
02-27-2006, 01:24 AM
I recently contacted VA LE with a possible match and this missing woman did have had a hysterectomy for cancer at a point in her life. I presumed that they Did not do an autospsy because the note requested not and because the case description said the abdominal scar was probably a c section. An autopsy would have shown for sure what type of abdominal scar it was and not a Probably or possibly. So do we know for sure an autospsy WAS done?

I am not going to post my match sent in because in the case of this woman and for instance the "Mary Anderson" case it was their own wish to not be identified. I feel a little different about these cases where they made every effort to not be identified. Their family I feel still has a right to know what happened if they are looking but I just feel these cases should be a bit more private as to their wishes. Do you know what I mean?

PonderingThings
02-27-2006, 05:12 AM
A Wagner although I know what you mean, I disagree totally.

Although they did everything to cover who they were, the question is why? What were they trying to cover up - besides their identity.

Personally I find it hard to believe that LE would give in to no autopsy because it was requested. The law is the law, request or not.

I do believe you are entitled to your opinion however and I respect your position.

Maybe So
02-27-2006, 05:48 AM
This person was in the world for 60 years. How can it be that no one looked for her and no one knows who she is? She must have had some friends, she must have had a doctor, neighbors, someone who wondered where she went or who would at least recognize her.

Probably people who knew her don't even know about this case. Most likely relatives or friends think she is still alive somewhere.

Gosh I wish they would get a national TV channel going that showed these peoples faces. The number of lost, missing and unidentified people is just so inconceivable to me.

JusticeForAll
02-28-2006, 09:41 AM
She wore bifocals. Is there some way to trace where this particular frame came from, let's just say Lenscrafters, and start by contacting all the Lencrafter stores in the area and see it they have any prescriptions on file that match the bifocals she wore.

anthrobones
07-16-2006, 09:28 PM
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html



Unidentified White Female



Discovered on December 18, 1996 in Annandale, Fairfax County, Virginia.
Estimated Date of Death: December 17, 1996
Cause of death was suicide




Vital Statistics


Estimated age: 60 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'0"; 157 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Auburn/red, curly hair. She had an 8 inch scar on her abdomen, probably from C-section. Fingernails painted red.
Dentals: Dental chart is available.
Clothing: Teal, all weather Eddie Baur hooded jacket, (size M). Navy blue Classiques Entier sweater (size L); red Classiques Entier sweater (size XL), red Classiques Entier sleeveless silk shirt (size Petite L), navy blue Classiques Entier knit wool pants (size L). Black loafers (size 7M), knee high stockings, white support bra, white "Fruite of the Loom" underpants (size 6). Her clothes may have come from an upscale store such as Saks Fifth Avenue. She also had a green knapsack.
Jewelry: She wore bifocals with translucent frames, two clip-on earrings, a small gold women's Guess watch with mesh band and a 14 karat gold ring with 4 jade stones, a metal bead chain with medic alert "NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin."
Other: Fingerprints/DNA available


Case History
This unidentified woman committed suicide on December 18, 1996. She left two 50$ bills one for the coroner and one for the cemetery with the same typed note:
Deceased by own hand...prefer no autopsy. Please order cremation with funds provided. Thank you, Jane Doe
She was located inside Pleasant Valley Memorial Park, a small cemetery in Annandale, Virginia. There was a clear plastic sheet on the ground. Next to the sheet was an 8" Christmas tree, adorned with gold balls and red ribbons.
In addition to drinking brandy (she had a 0.14 blood-alcohol level) and swallowing Valium, the victim had two empty juice bottles and a new roll of masking tape in her knapsack. She had no receipts in her pockets to enable police to trace her movements. She had a portable tape player, the headphones over her ears and had listened to a recording of comedians Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner doing their "2000 year old man" routine. She had placed a plastic bag over her head and tied it off with tape. This made her suffocate.
The site she chose, Pleasant Valley, probably wouldn't be known to a drifter. She lay down near the section of the cemetery where infants are buried, but not near any particular grave, and most of the stones nearby were fairly recent.

Richard
11-04-2006, 12:26 PM
This December will mark the ten year anniversary of this woman's death.

anthrobones
12-26-2006, 04:40 PM
Bumping up post.

christine2448
03-28-2007, 09:18 AM
Someone sent me a tip on my Myspace page www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me (http://www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me)

They said they think they know who this woman is:

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?U200500025S


they believe it may be her

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200301575W


They are contacting reporting agencies.......what do you all think?


This body would have been discovered 6 yrs after Carmella's disappearance....

I'd like to know #1...did Carmella have an 8 inch scar on her abdomen? #2 were her ears pierced? #3 how accurate are heights and weights on this particular reporting site? (I have found many sites with many errors) the height is off by 4 inches, weight is off by 37 lbs (this could be possible in 6 yrs missing).

christine2448
03-28-2007, 09:29 AM
Question to sleuthers who have 'been around awhile'....these 2 women are listed on the same website...what are the chances this would be missed?

Secondly, they both have NCIC #'s, does that mean they have DNA and it's in a database?

Want to know if we are wasting our time.

concernedperson
03-28-2007, 09:44 AM
Question to sleuthers who have 'been around awhile'....these 2 women are listed on the same website...what are the chances this would be missed?

Secondly, they both have NCIC #'s, does that mean they have DNA and it's in a database?

Want to know if we are wasting our time.

The first lady found in 1996 wasn't skeletal and she appeared to be in her mid to late 60's. I dunno Chris this doesn't seem to be a fit. It is possible the lady that went missing in 1990 traveled to the other coast to leave everything behind but I'll bet that husband knows she is closer to Riverside, Ca.

christine2448
03-28-2007, 09:51 AM
The first lady found in 1996 wasn't skeletal and she appeared to be in her mid to late 60's. I dunno Chris this doesn't seem to be a fit. It is possible the lady that went missing in 1990 traveled to the other coast to leave everything behind but I'll bet that husband knows she is closer to Riverside, Ca.

I think it was Riverdale, GA. Which is a hop skip and jump from me.

Thanks for your input concerned, I value your points of view!

concernedperson
03-28-2007, 11:25 AM
I think it was Riverdale, GA. Which is a hop skip and jump from me.

Thanks for your input concerned, I value your points of view!

Boy, did I get that wrong. Riverdale,Ga. puts it much closer. Reading skills this AM aren't too good. Sorry.

Julessleuther
03-28-2007, 05:02 PM
Sorry, she does not look like a match to me either. Did anyone happen to notice the clothing she was wearing? Fruite of the Loom? Classique? This is French. Could she be from another country? I will look at Canada and European missing to see if I find anything. I would love to know where in the cemetary she was found--maybe she was "visiting" a grave and was heartbroken and could not deal with the fact that that "someone" was gone. If we could find a record of all burials within a certain time frame before she as found, maybe we would find a family member.

Trino
03-28-2007, 05:06 PM
Just chiming in here.

The eyes and nose do seem similar, but the weight is off. Of course, we all know how easy it is to put on those pounds.

hoppyfrog
09-09-2007, 11:29 PM
Any news on this one?

Hoppy

BirdieBoo
09-09-2007, 11:40 PM
I don't think so, because Jane Doe is 4 inches shorter than the other lady.

christine2448
09-10-2007, 12:02 AM
I don't think so, because Jane Doe is 4 inches shorter than the other lady.

are you serious.....how did I miss that????

There are just too many...I am rushing too much...I need to slow down! I am not helping anyone if I am rushing!

FLMom
09-10-2007, 01:05 PM
are you serious.....how did I miss that????

There are just too many...I am rushing too much...I need to slow down! I am not helping anyone if I am rushing!

But you're out there looking, and that's what matters! I'd rather see a thousand "I'm not sure" matches than to not see one posted at all.

You go girl!

annemc2
10-11-2007, 11:43 PM
Bump...


Reconstruction, images of Personal Effects added 10/11/07

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

outofthedark
10-12-2007, 12:04 AM
Might she be a Jeff Foxworthy fan, given the tape of his that was found with her?

rmf
10-12-2007, 12:33 AM
Classiques Entier clothing is an exclusive brand of Nordstrom stores.

Debbie Miller
10-12-2007, 12:49 AM
I believe an autopsy was done.

Teresa Larson
10-12-2007, 01:24 AM
Has any one ever sent a picture of this lady to the churches in the area or the doctors offices? I wonder if she worked for someone near by. It appears to me that there are a lot of wealthy people in Annandale. I think she looks Puerto Rican. IMO :twocents:

Al_B
10-12-2007, 02:03 AM
I found an article in a paper
http://www.nbc4.com/news/14200719/detail.html?rss=dc&psp=news
I know it's no more then we know already

Al_B
10-12-2007, 02:11 AM
I found the juice mentioned in video it's made in Belgium by Tropicana
http://shopuncleharrys.dukestores.duke.edu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_46&products_id=3167
any one know where any international sellers would be in that area?
it's a popular european product

rmf
10-12-2007, 03:23 AM
I wonder if there was a Nordstrom store close to where she was found. Nordstrom is headquartered in Seattle where I live, and so I've been shopping there for years. Many of the longtime Sales Associates keep detailed records of customers and what they buy. Many of the SAs at Nordstrom have worked for the company for decades, so it makes me wonder if there is a store nearby, if there is a SA there that might remember this lady. The reason I knew about that clothing brand is because in the 90s I used to buy quite a bit of it from Nordstrom too. They still sell it to this day.

Babyslims
10-12-2007, 03:35 AM
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/geurin_judith.html

grr lost last post..... anyways someone put this missing person on here the other day.....and my first thought was this UID lady.....but height is off... and somthing about a broken collar bone/wrist....but *just* incase it was overlooked, or not mentioned for jane doe

Debbie Miller
10-12-2007, 07:42 AM
I found the juice mentioned in video it's made in Belgium by Tropicana
http://shopuncleharrys.dukestores.duke.edu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_46&products_id=3167
any one know where any international sellers would be in that area?
it's a popular european product

That has been looked into. When I did a search for it I came up with online purchasing only.

Al_B
10-12-2007, 07:55 AM
That has been looked into. When I did a search for it I came up with online purchasing only.
:confused: Sorry I had no idea as it wasn't in any post's and I only found out the juice name through the article.

pardilia
10-12-2007, 08:20 AM
I found the juice mentioned in video it's made in Belgium by Tropicana
http://shopuncleharrys.dukestores.duke.edu/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_46&products_id=3167
any one know where any international sellers would be in that area?
it's a popular european product

I can find Looza now in my local grocery store(s) - and have been able to do so for several years now.

However, at the time it could have been bought in DC, Fairfax, or Alexandria. They are all large/popular areas with a varified population - and many of the local stores reflect that (then and now). There have always been eclectic "gourmet" shops that sell a variety of international products and local country/ethnic-specific markets.

I seriously doubt it would have been *too* difficult to find in that area at that time - its more likely that the police hadn't heard or seen it before because its more of a specialty drink and is usually sold in the European or ethinic section of grocery stores.

Al_B
10-12-2007, 08:30 AM
OK was wondering as the investigator in the news seemed to not know or even have heard of it and I wouldn't know where I live not many international marts around without a drive anyhow. Video is only from last month so I ask.
As far as vending though I don't know how that works.To me it would be novelity to purchase forigen products as I am not going to make a special trip for something they don't sell at the local market or circle K ( unless it happens to be sold there for that market)

Richard
10-12-2007, 12:48 PM
I wonder if there was a Nordstrom store close to where she was found. Nordstrom is headquartered in Seattle ...

There are two Nordstrom stores somewhat close to where she was found. The closest would be the one located at 1400 South Hayes, in Arlington, VA. The other is located at 1961 Chainbridge Road in McLean, VA.

There are also some Nordstrom stores in Maryland: Bethesda and Potomac Mills.

The Arlington Store would seem to me to be the best bet, since Arlington is just east and north of Annandale, and the Bus routes and taxis would be readily available between the two.

pardilia
10-12-2007, 02:25 PM
There are two Nordstrom stores somewhat close to where she was found. The closest would be the one located at 1400 South Hayes, in Arlington, VA. The other is located at 1961 Chainbridge Road in McLean, VA.

There are also some Nordstrom stores in Maryland: Bethesda and Potomac Mills.

The Arlington Store would seem to me to be the best bet, since Arlington is just east and north of Annandale, and the Bus routes and taxis would be readily available between the two.

The one in Potomac Mills (which is in Woodbridge, VA - not in MD), is a "Nordstrom Rack" which is an outlet version of Nordstrom that might not necessarily have the clothes she was wearing - plus it isn't the most easily accessible place via public transportation.

Depending on which direction she came from, my guess would be either the Bethesda or Arlington locations. Since both cities are accessible through the metro and there are stops near Annandale. Both paths would have allowed her ample time to do a little shopping and placed her in areas that would have been likely to have stores that would have carried "Looza" at the time.

Although I'm not really sure if she would have bought the clothes the same day - she could have bought them weeks or months previously and decided that was the outfit she wanted to wear when she passed. It could have been an outfit that a loved one purchased for her or otherwise had 'meaning'. With her laying out the sheet, and being careful about setting everything up, I don't think that it would be improbable for the other items she had with her to also have some importance - or 'meaning'.

rmf
10-12-2007, 05:49 PM
It would be interesting to see if those Nordstrom stores were there 10 years ago. Nordstrom has undergone quite an expansion over the past decade, so it is possible those stores are newer and may post-date this case?

Richard
10-12-2007, 08:29 PM
It would be interesting to see if those Nordstrom stores were there 10 years ago. Nordstrom has undergone quite an expansion over the past decade, so it is possible those stores are newer and may post-date this case?

I got those addresses from a November 2002 (5 years old) Verizon White Pages book. So they were around 6 years after her death.

If I find an older book, or if someone else has one, perhaps we can get a closer snapshot of that time.

rmf
10-12-2007, 09:17 PM
Out of curiosity I called Nordstrom corporate and asked about the Bethesda and Arlington stores. The Arlington store has been open over 20 years. The Bethesda store is newer, approx. 10-15 years old. Hope this helps.

Angie4b1g
10-12-2007, 09:28 PM
What a sad story. It breaks my heart that she was in such a dark place. And that no one has come looking for her.

Teresa Larson
10-13-2007, 02:15 AM
I think she had a reason for dying in the cemetery. She seemed to be very meticulous about everything concerning her death. A person would have to take the correct amount of drugs in order to die. Most people that OD take too much of the drug(s) and just end up getting sick.

pardilia
10-13-2007, 09:51 AM
I think she had a reason for dying in the cemetery. She seemed to be very meticulous about everything concerning her death. A person would have to take the correct amount of drugs in order to die. Most people that OD take too much of the drug(s) and just end up getting sick.

I agree. I also have a feeling that she probably 'cleaned house' before doing this - most people who commit suicide leave *something* behind - unpaid rent on an apartment, a car, other unclaimed belongings. I'm wondering if she was diagnosed with something terminal (maybe even something like alzhiemer's which wouldn't show up on an autopsy - if one was performed)...and perhaps her family/loved ones were aware and supported her decision. Maybe not knowing where she was going to go to commit suicide, but still knew that was her choice. (Or they didn't know she was going to commit suicide, they just knew she wasn't coming back.)

Debbie Miller
10-13-2007, 11:37 AM
I feel she chose the cemetary for seclusion, (not to be found.) She mostlikely went there after dark or dusk. Who is going to be walking around a cemetary at night? The DNR bracelet, in my belief was for the purpose of incase someone stumbled upon her before she was deceased. This was her communication "Don't save me"

This was a self deliverance suicide. That is what it is referred to. This was definately a planned event, she researched it thoroughly.

coco
10-13-2007, 11:57 AM
With the medic alert, is there any particular reasons someone would have "DNR"? Why does one usually have that on a medic alert? Sorry I don't know anything about this.

Bluecat
10-13-2007, 12:08 PM
Looza juices and nectars have been sold in Giant Food grocery stores for as long as I can remember, so unfortunately I don't think that will give us much to go on. I wonder if she was from the area, and came back from wherever she was living in order to die? She doesn't seem homeless. If she was living with someone, they most likely would have been looking for her. Unless she told them she was moving out, but the disposal of all of her stuff would have garnered some attention, surely? There would have been an autopsy done - a death investigation is mandated in case of suicide in the Commonwealth of Virginia and it would have gone to the Fairfax district medical examiner. I think that if she was ill they would have released the info since it does sound like they ruled suicide. Maybe she had financial problems? Of course we could speculate forever but major depression has a strange effect on a person's thinking.

Coco, DNR means "do not resuscitate." It means that they do not want anyone to perform CPR or to be hooked up to any machines that will prolong their life. You usually only see this instruction if the person has an incurable disease, such as an organic dementia like Alzheimers disease, or a fatal cancer.

Debbie Miller
10-13-2007, 02:10 PM
I read somewhere there was an autopsy done only to find "the cause of death" I think it was valium.

Teresa Larson
10-18-2007, 02:22 AM
There is a Giant Food Store very close to the cemetery where she was found at. I wonder if it carried the Looza brand juice at that time.

Babyslims
10-18-2007, 03:25 AM
Mattie L Zabel

some things are off but thought i'd throw this up just in case

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/z/zabel_mattie.html

Bluecat
10-18-2007, 04:55 PM
I dont' think that the Iowa woman survived the day that she disappeared, much less another 18 years. Part of the problem that you have in Northern Virginia, and the Washington DC area in general is that there is such a transient population, in a way. You have a lot of visitors, and a lot of professionals who are here for just a couple of years until either someone loses a Congressional seat, or they get their next posting. I could totally see that someone could cut their professional ties and just walk away from their life without having anyone look for them.

Babyslims
10-18-2007, 08:11 PM
I wouldn't think the Iowa lady would still be alive, but just in case I put her up here!

I could see how easy it could be to not to be missed by anyone! Especially someone who's really wanting to disappear.. I wonder if Jane doe chose this date for a certain reason? or it just happened to be when she felt like leaving this world.. :confused:

Teresa Larson
10-29-2007, 01:56 AM
Bumping this up. I hope we can find out who this poor lady was. :angel: It's very sad to think she laid there and died alone.

anthrobones
03-15-2008, 12:21 PM
Bumping this up.

tigger3z
03-15-2008, 01:36 PM
I have looked for information on this case with little success.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2425dfva.html (http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2425dfva.html)I am trying to find her height and weight:

I think that Margarett Marion may be http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

Margarett Marion disappeared in March 1994 the Jane Doe in the cemetery died in December 1996. Look at their noses, glasses, lips,

Jane Doe has She had an 8 inch scar on her abdomen, probably from C-section. Jane doe has auburn hair but it looks died and it says curly possibly a perm. Very few people have orginial hair color at 60. But I can't find out any more info on Margarett Marion than what is below. Margarett Marion lived in Virginia Beach VA. A distance of maybe 3 hours. I tried to find the cemetery Jane Doe died in to see if there were any children buried there why Jane Doe picked there if she was indeed Margarett Marion but it does not list graves. Anyone have any ideas?

Margarett Marion 
Missing since March 8, 1994 from Virginia Beach, Virginia 
Classification: Missing


Vital Statistics
Age at Time of Disappearance: 52 years old
Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Glasses.


Circumstances of Disappearance 
Margarett Marion was last seen on March 8, 1994. 
Marion's vehicle, a red two door, Isuzu Mark I, was found running and abandoned a

Teresa Larson
03-15-2008, 11:47 PM
I don't think these 2 ladies look at all alike. The lady found dead in the cemetery looks like she could possibly be Puerto Rican. I see no resemblance at all IMO

rhyno1974
03-16-2008, 11:45 AM
I think that Margarett Marion may be http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html


I think that is a great match. They have very similar facial features, as well as the glasses. It was two years later that the UID was located so the hair, etc. could have changed in that time and the it is a only a reconstruction that we are comparing to. The only thing is, that you would think that this would have been checked out prior to now because of the location, age, resemblance. I definately think it is worth checking out.

Debbie Miller
03-16-2008, 10:35 PM
Margarett Marion was turned in to the detective in Va. on Jan. 8, 2008 as a possible match.

tigger3z
03-17-2008, 12:35 AM
Debbie thank you. I am praying she is a match. Do you know how long it takes before they rule a person in or out?

Teresa Larson
04-04-2008, 04:03 AM
Bumping this up Has anybody found out anything new? This case really bothers me. I keep wondering why this poor woman ended her life in the cemetery. I also wonder why nobody has been missing her. Hopefully some day soon we will know who she is and where she was from.

Eire
04-04-2008, 09:58 AM
Has anyone read the thread for her at Porchlight? My memory is a bit foggy this morning due to migraine, but I seem to remember somebody there saying the glasses and juice came from Belgium. I doubt she came here from Belgium just to commit suicide, she may have been here for decades or years or months. My research skills have been lackluster as of late, I've wanted to explore this more, but I"m stuck for a starting point.

christine2448
04-04-2008, 10:15 AM
I have this woman on my UID myspace page


www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me (http://www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me)

kygal
04-04-2008, 01:50 PM
With the medic alert, is there any particular reasons someone would have "DNR"? Why does one usually have that on a medic alert? Sorry I don't know anything about this.


She also had "No penicillin" on it (forgive the spelling). Perhaps she was allergic to it, and that is something that docs like to have on a medic alert bracelet (my mother has one). A lot of times people with "living wills" that specify no ventilators or recussitation would also have one. "No Code, DNR" means that they don't want to be "coded" -- heart defibed and such or resucitated (opened airways, ventilated). Basically, if her heart stopped and she stopped breathing, let her go. Sounds like something she'd have long before -- and if she were seriously ill.

She was also found near the area where babies and young children were buried. Does anyone think that perhaps she lost a baby/young child/young grandchild through code/vents and just couldn't handle it? Or sat through the pain for all those (possible) years and with a terminal illness diagnosed decided to end it all? A look at the graves around where she was found might give some details as well.

Eire
04-04-2008, 02:07 PM
She also had "No penicillin" on it (forgive the spelling). Perhaps she was allergic to it, and that is something that docs like to have on a medic alert bracelet (my mother has one). A lot of times people with "living wills" that specify no ventilators or recussitation would also have one. "No Code, DNR" means that they don't want to be "coded" -- heart defibed and such or resucitated (opened airways, ventilated). Basically, if her heart stopped and she stopped breathing, let her go. Sounds like something she'd have long before -- and if she were seriously ill.

She was also found near the area where babies and young children were buried. Does anyone think that perhaps she lost a baby/young child/young grandchild through code/vents and just couldn't handle it? Or sat through the pain for all those (possible) years and with a terminal illness diagnosed decided to end it all? A look at the graves around where she was found might give some details as well.

Somebody at another site looked in to the possibility of her having a child/grandchild buried there and they found out the cemetary was mostly an ethnic cemetary. I believe it was African-American. If I recall correctly, they don't think she chose it based on a loved one being buried there. The theory was she chose it for the remote location.

I have a question about medic alert jewelry. Maybe somebody can educate me a bit. I know to get a bracelet or necklace one needs to fill out a form and I believe have a doctor sign off on it. Are these researchable at all? I'm guessing no since HIPPA would most likely prohibit that. Could LE try and find out how many DNR/no penicillin ones were issued in that area?

kygal
04-04-2008, 06:48 PM
You know, they may be subject to serial numbers like watches and implants. If one could find out what company made it (which should be on the bracelet), they may be able to tell who it was for. You are right that a medic bracelet requires some sort of form -- and I'm pretty sure mom's doctor had to sign it. I don't know that HIPPA would regulate matching serial numbers to a form.

The reason I suggested children grandchildren was that perhaps she had a racially mixed child or grandchild. You never know, and while it might not have been common or popular then, it could have happened. I know it's a far reach, but one never knows what the story of an unidentified person was until it is found who they are.

ETA: It might be worth seeing if any attorneys or notaries public in the area would recognize this woman. Usually the No Code/DNR would require a filed "living will" that usually has to be done through an attorney (or would have been at the time) but at the least would require a notary public to stamp it for a doctor/hospital to use it.

Teresa Larson
04-04-2008, 09:42 PM
Somebody at another site looked in to the possibility of her having a child/grandchild buried there and they found out the cemetary was mostly an ethnic cemetary. I believe it was African-American. If I recall correctly, they don't think she chose it based on a loved one being buried there. The theory was she chose it for the remote location.

I have a question about medic alert jewelry. Maybe somebody can educate me a bit. I know to get a bracelet or necklace one needs to fill out a form and I believe have a doctor sign off on it. Are these researchable at all? I'm guessing no since HIPPA would most likely prohibit that. Could LE try and find out how many DNR/no penicillin ones were issued in that area?

Anybody can buy a medical alert bracelet. I have one myself. I doubt that will be of any help. You can buy them at most jewelry stores too if you want a nice one. Someone could have also made the bracelet for her. My daughter has a rosary bracelet that someone made for her. The one JD had was a beaded one.

Eire
04-05-2008, 09:42 AM
So there's more than one way to get one then, correct? I'm going by memory when my aunt got hers. She sent away for it and I do remember her doctor filling out or signing off on part of the form. I've seen the fancier ones you're talking about as well. Slightly off topic, but I always thought the nicer ones were a great idea. Is there a pic of JD's somewhere that you're aware of? I've seen pics of her other personal property, but I can't remember seeing the medic tag.

christine2448
04-05-2008, 10:40 AM
I haven't looked back yet to see how much info has been discussed about the cemetary and 'who' she was found near....thinking, may be stupid, I wonder how much LE took notes on surrounding grave sites? I wonder if it'd be worth a phone call to investigator and ask? Another idea, get someone from the area to go and research, take pics for us. And, get a list of who was buried there at the time of her death from the owners of the lot?

Thoughts?

KarlK
04-06-2008, 05:05 PM
Bumping this up. I hope we can find out who this poor lady was. :angel: It's very sad to think she laid there and died alone.

It was her own choice though. To some people being alone in such a moment is synonymous with being in peace.

KarlK
04-06-2008, 05:16 PM
I don't think these 2 ladies look at all alike. The lady found dead in the cemetery looks like she could possibly be Puerto Rican. I see no resemblance at all IMO

I don't see much of a resemblance myself but I don't see prominent Hispanic features in the cemetery lady either. Of course she could still be Puerto Rican but she could be Mrs Smith-next-door as well. All that we know is that she was likely middle-class and certainly not a transient.

Babyslims
04-07-2008, 02:31 AM
http://www.nbc4.com/crime/14200719/detail.html sorry zoomed over to see if it was posted really quick

KT Can
04-13-2008, 12:20 AM
What do you think? I see a strong resemblance between this lady and the drawing of Jane Doe.

Penny Lee Earlywine
Missing since May of 1989 from El Cajon, California
www.doenetwork.org (http://www.doenetwork.org)
Case File 2471DFCA

Picture is of better quality on the website below:
http://www.elcajonpolice.org/OpenCases/MissingPersons/index.html (http://www.elcajonpolice.org/OpenCases/MissingPersons/index.html)

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/earlywine_penny.html (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/earlywine_penny.html)

Teresa Larson
04-13-2008, 01:54 AM
What do you think? I see a strong resemblance between this lady and the drawing of Jane Doe.

Penny Lee Earlywine
Missing since May of 1989 from El Cajon, California
www.doenetwork.org (http://www.doenetwork.org)
Case File 2471DFCA

Picture is of better quality on the website below:
http://www.elcajonpolice.org/OpenCases/MissingPersons/index.html (http://www.elcajonpolice.org/OpenCases/MissingPersons/index.html)

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/earlywine_penny.html (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/earlywine_penny.html)


I see no resemblance what so ever This lady is younger than JD IMO

Meyahna
04-13-2008, 02:12 AM
I have a tiny post-mortem of her if anyone wants it. Just email me.

Teresa Larson
06-19-2008, 01:01 AM
Bumping this up for this poor lady I hope some day we can find out who you were.

Teresa Larson
07-10-2008, 09:33 PM
I am still bothered by who this lady could be and why she ended her life the way she did. Can anyone think of anything? I would think she is from the area but if she is then why hasn't somebody looked for her or have they?

Julessleuther
07-11-2008, 03:27 AM
Yes, Theresa, I wonder too if she is from the area. I think this poor woman should have a proper burial with her name.

Three things:

1. Is there public transportation near the cemetary? If not, how did she get there? Taxi? Abandoned car left somewhere near?

2. I found out the juice is from Belguim, but is sold at many stores in the US. It is not cheap, so I am guessing she did have money. I will research more and see if we can find local VA stores that may carry it.

3. I would like to know what mausoleum she was found near. Even if it is an ethnic cemetary, she may have been bi-racial or been married to someone of another ethnic background. I think there is a reason she picked that cemetary, that place.

Teresa Larson
07-11-2008, 04:48 PM
I agree Jules there has to be a reason why she chose that cemetery even if it was an African American one. She could of had a grandchild buried there. I know the juice was sold near there. I'd have to read back through the posts to see what store carried it. She could have walked there too.

Julessleuther
07-11-2008, 10:55 PM
I found this about the cemetary:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&GSvcid=26114&CRid=51693&pt=Pleasant%20Valley%20Memorial%20Park (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&GSvcid=26114&CRid=51693&pt=Pleasant%20Valley%20Memorial%20Park)&


Pleasant Valley Memorial Park
Also known as: Pleasant Valley Jardines de Recuerdos

I did a spanish/english translation, and it is known as the Garden of Memories. Interesting about the spanish wording...


I also found on another site that the cemetary was established in 1968.

Also found out that one of the Virginia Tech victims was buried here!!
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-french25apr25,0,6635596.story?coll=la-home-headlines


Ok--it appears that that there was another cemetary, the Guinea Rd cemetary that was a slavery cemetary. VA wanted to widen the road near that cemetary, archealogists got involved, and the bodies found were re-buried at the Pleasant Valley Memorial Park.
http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=600&sid=1353846


Some interesting burial info:

http://www.usgwarchives.org/va/vastones/frederick/pleasantvum/pleasantvum.htm

Aphra
07-11-2008, 11:47 PM
Here's an interesting match:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1310dfnor.html

She disappeared from Norway a year before Jane Doe turned up in Dec. 1996. Maybe she found out she had some terminal illness and decided that she wanted to live out the rest of her life traveling and go out on her own terms. The ages match somewhat, as does the height (2 inches off, maybe she shrank as a result of illness)

ETA: English not being her first language would explain the weird wording in her suicide note.

Julessleuther
07-12-2008, 01:41 AM
I just checked to see how far the closest metro station was from the cemetary, and it is 4.51 miles. She may have traveled by metro, and if so, could have come from anywhere, as there are even metro stops for the DC area airports and train station.

Also, the clothing brand that she was wearing Classiques Entier is a Nordstrom exclusive, not Saks(as noted on Doe Network). It is trademarked by Nordstrom. I wonder if she purchased the clothing just prior to her suicide.

Julessleuther
07-12-2008, 01:59 AM
There are so many questions I have about this woman--has anyone ever contacted the Fairfax police about her?

What color were her eyes?

Her hair was curly--was it natural or a perm? Was her hair colored? Perhaps she colored it red on purpose to make it harder to find her identity?

Was there an autopsy done?

She sounds like she liked comedians, or was listening to those tapes because it reminded her of someone--maybe her husband or a child who also listened to comedians? All those tapes are comedies.

What brand was her tape player and headset?

Was there a brandy bottle found, or just brandy in her system? If it was just found in her system, how do they know it was brandy? Was brnady residue found in one of the juice bottles? If not, perhaps she was drinking somewhere nearby, like a bar or restaurant. What where the other contents of her stomach?

What kind of plastic bag was it--a ziploc kind of bag, or a grocery store bag?

Where there any fingerprints on the money? After Sept 11th, bank security has gotten tighter. Perhaps there are fingerprints on the money that lead back to a particular bank teller/bank?

The type print on the suicide note--was it an old fashioned typewriter, or was it a computer?

What brand of masking tape and can it be traced back to a store?

If she was carrying a Christmas tree, ornaments, a backpack, etc she must have needed some kind of transportation help to get there--did the police check taxi companies?

Teresa Larson
07-12-2008, 02:37 AM
There are so many questions I have about this woman--has anyone ever contacted the Fairfax police about her?

What color were her eyes?

Her hair was curly--was it natural or a perm? Was her hair colored? Perhaps she colored it red on purpose to make it harder to find her identity?

Was there an autopsy done?

She sounds like she liked comedians, or was listening to those tapes because it reminded her of someone--maybe her husband or a child who also listened to comedians? All those tapes are comedies.

What brand was her tape player and headset?

Was there a brandy bottle found, or just brandy in her system? If it was just found in her system, how do they know it was brandy? Was brnady residue found in one of the juice bottles? If not, perhaps she was drinking somewhere nearby, like a bar or restaurant. What where the other contents of her stomach?

What kind of plastic bag was it--a ziploc kind of bag, or a grocery store bag?

Where there any fingerprints on the money? After Sept 11th, bank security has gotten tighter. Perhaps there are fingerprints on the money that lead back to a particular bank teller/bank?

The type print on the suicide note--was it an old fashioned typewriter, or was it a computer?

What brand of masking tape and can it be traced back to a store?

If she was carrying a Christmas tree, ornaments, a backpack, etc she must have needed some kind of transportation help to get there--did the police check taxi companies?

Her death happened before 9-11 I hope the LE took finger prints off of the bills. I thought the note was written? It was typed? If it was I doubt it would have been on a computer since it was in 1996. It's possible but not likely. The Christmas tree was a small one. I think all of the things she had fit into the book bag. I also do not think we would be able to find the cab company or driver that dropped her off there IF she took a cab since it was so long ago. I am more concerned with why she chose that cemetery because I think that is the key to identifying her. I also think this woman is Puerto Rican - Hispanic.

txsvicki
07-12-2008, 04:31 AM
Does anyone know where the woman's remains were put? One hundred dollars doesn't seem like much for a cremation. One thing that struck me about the woman's belongings is that she could have brought the tapes on a fairly long busride from another town or had recently been discharged from a hospital since she had the tapes and a little XMAS tree. I wonder if there are any missing retired nurses? It almost seems as if the woman had a clinical idea of her suicide and knew how much medication to take, to mix it with alcohol, how to put the bag over her head to make sure her life ended, and even did it on plastic sheeting. She was dressed nicely so must have had a decent retirement or income at least up until awhile before her death. A nurse who had no family to take care of her could also have an adversion to ever growing old alone in a nursing home.

Debbie Miller
07-12-2008, 11:58 PM
The last article out concerning this lady, the detective states they are in his office.

Teresa Larson
07-26-2008, 05:31 AM
This lady defiantly knew what she was doing. She made sure that she would die. I think she had this well planned out. I also wonder if she had any family some place. The thing that bothers me the most about this case is what was so horrible in this poor woman's life that she wanted to be dead. Did her husband die or leave her? Maybe somebody she loved died? Her heart and spirit had to be broken if she didn't want to live any longer :-(

Teresa Larson
08-24-2008, 02:35 AM
Bumping this up for the Annandale Va Jane Doe

christine2448
08-24-2008, 02:53 AM
Ty...this is one that IMO media exposure would solve, national.

She was est in 60s or close IIRC, someone in this world has crossed her path.

I have posted her and featured her on UID myspace pages...nothing. Honestly, and sadly, haven't had the time to delve in....but would like to.

Teresa Larson
08-25-2008, 01:13 AM
Ty...this is one that IMO media exposure would solve, national.

She was est in 60s or close IIRC, someone in this world has crossed her path.

I have posted her and featured her on UID myspace pages...nothing. Honestly, and sadly, haven't had the time to delve in....but would like to.

I agree Christine this one is solvable. We need more national coverage/pictures put out there for the public to see. I wouldn't hate to bet there was a screw up - mistake made in this case too.

Seifsister
08-25-2008, 01:30 AM
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=51693

Here is the link to this cemetery. There are allot of babies and children burried there.

Betty

StealthTheory
08-25-2008, 03:41 PM
This one made me very sad also.
I seriously doubt it's Margaret Marion. Her care was found at the two mile mark on chesapeake bridge. I think MM probably threw herself off the bridge.

The Green Hornet
09-06-2008, 06:16 PM
Bumping this up.

Although it's disturbing to some, I think the post-mortem picture might go a long way in helping this case out. I know someone in the thread previously mentioned they had it. Perhaps if it's posted, this case can get closure.

Teresa Larson
03-08-2009, 01:32 AM
Bumping this up for the Annandale Va Jane Doe. Somebody has to be missing this poor woman. I still think she looks Puerto Rican.

pearly
05-13-2009, 01:48 AM
Hi Guys,
stumbled upon this Jane Doe whilst looking at the Doe Network UID's and thought I might as well put another Jane on my to solve list :).

I found 2 missing persons that I thought could be JD but when I look at my side by side's i am no longer so sure but will post anyway

Barbara Lee Elms missing since Aug 25 1993
Doe Network Case File 767DFIA

pearly
05-13-2009, 01:53 AM
This missing person looks closer to Jane Doe then the other IMO however let me know what you think!
Evelyn L Piper
Case File 1133DFAL

MadeaBecBec
05-15-2009, 02:02 PM
Julessleuther & Seifsister; Thanks for those links!
I am going through each person on those that are listed as being buried there to see when they passed or if a DOB is given, so far I have found 3 children that are buried there that passed close to the date of Janes passing! The one that really stood out for me (my instinct kicked up a bit) is this one: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSsr=161&GScid=51693&GRid=21535876& I believe she may have been named after a grandmother, I'll not put her name here, out of respect. (The first name is also the name of a plant) Y'all may think I'm way out there, in a way you are right, I do think differently than most folks :crazy: I am, however, quite sane, I promise!!
Now, I'm back to searching records starting at 241.....
Oh!! And the area that Jane was found at is called Babyland, I'm with others here in thinking that is a significant clue! Here's a photo of the entrance there:

maureen
11-11-2009, 12:14 AM
Hello, I was coming here to suggest Evelyn Piper as a match, but, I see it was already mentioned. EP disappeared 2 years earlier, saying she was going on a worldwide adventure? Very strange, not too far from GA/AL to VA...Any thoughts...Maureen

maureen
11-13-2009, 12:35 AM
Hi everybody, I submitted Evelyn Piper to VA LE. Keep your fingers crossed, I will let you know when I hear back....Maureen

maureen
12-05-2009, 06:13 PM
Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know that I still haven't heard back from the ME. Maybe that is a good thing-maybe that means they are really looking into it...Maureen

RubyRed
08-17-2010, 10:25 AM
Her Doe page.


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaANcmpQ19o


Just came across this video on this Jane Doe.

badhorsie
08-17-2010, 11:09 AM
This case just breaks my heart, someone must have loved this woman

starmushrooms
08-19-2010, 11:24 PM
Bump...


Reconstruction, images of Personal Effects added 10/11/07

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

Interesting. When I was younger and living in New Hampshire I had a friend who's mother bares a striking resemblance to this woman. She certainly wasn't 60 though, just strange how much they look alike.

starmushrooms
08-19-2010, 11:38 PM
Something about the graves, or the location of where she was found keeps getting to me. I wonder if maybe she was a nurse who delivered babies? I don't know, just a theory I was thinking of. Maybe she had a particular love for babies. It's sad though.

With the DNR on the bracelet I wonder if maybe she was in the medical field and saw what trying to save a persons life looked like and decided that wasn't for her.

When I was looking at the Christmas tree I thought maybe there was a connection to children in that also. Maybe the two (location and tree) have something to do with each other. Maybe Christmas meant something to her as a child or with a child of her own.

starmushrooms
08-19-2010, 11:42 PM
I am still bothered by who this lady could be and why she ended her life the way she did. Can anyone think of anything? I would think she is from the area but if she is then why hasn't somebody looked for her or have they?

She may have killed herself in a place she had no real connection to just so no one could find her.

Teresa Larson
08-20-2010, 01:29 AM
Something about the graves, or the location of where she was found keeps getting to me. I wonder if maybe she was a nurse who delivered babies? I don't know, just a theory I was thinking of. Maybe she had a particular love for babies. It's sad though.

With the DNR on the bracelet I wonder if maybe she was in the medical field and saw what trying to save a persons life looked like and decided that wasn't for her.

When I was looking at the Christmas tree I thought maybe there was a connection to children in that also. Maybe the two (location and tree) have something to do with each other. Maybe Christmas meant something to her as a child or with a child of her own.

That's something I never thought about. Her possibly being a nurse. That could be why she had the bracelet on. I would have never thought about that and I am sure nobody else would either UNLESS they were a nurse or in the medical field in some way. She could have even worked with elderly people. I wonder if someone took her picture around to the hospitals in the area and asked if she was ever employed there. Of course it would have to be an employee that has been there for a long time to recognize her. :waitasec: She had this all planned out.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 09:32 PM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs392.snc4/45501_125369920843695_100001120622920_139343_18490 72_n.jpg


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs277.snc4/40165_125371070843580_100001120622920_139348_37393 38_n.jpg

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 09:41 PM
Is there a second hand on her watch?
Most medical professionals are sure to have second hands for taking a pulse.

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 09:43 PM
She reminds me of a teacher, maybe it is the poetry.

Forgive me if this has been addressed, but is it possible to run the numbers on her prescription glasses. The frames might have a model number (mine do) and then search for optometrists that filled her particular prescription grind? Long shot, I know.

Also, I wonder if it would help to puff out her hair some and then compare to Mp's?
The reason I say this is because, if she had a bag on her head, aspirated, choked etc her hair was wet when she was found and then possibly washed by the ME, so perhaps her hair when styled was a lot more puffy or softer curls???

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 09:54 PM
I think there is a connection to the infant graves she was near and Christmas. Perhaps a baby born near Christmas that passed away. Not necessarily that her child is in that cemetery but a connection to an infant in some way and sometime around December 17 is significant.

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 10:15 PM
Exactly 7 days before Christmas... Maybe it is her OWN DOB?

Maybe in and out of the world on her 50th? Like the $50 bills?
Just a thought...

She was poetic...

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Is there a second hand on her watch?
Most medical professionals are sure to have second hands for taking a pulse.

When I watched it in the video it looked like there was a second hand.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 10:19 PM
Exactly 7 days before Christmas... Maybe it is her OWN DOB?

Maybe in and out of the world on her 50th? Like the $50 bills?
Just a thought...

She was poetic...


Yes, could be. I just feel December 17 has some significant meaning.

Doe network says a possible c-section, so we know she had a baby.

Who would take the time to decorate a Christmas tree if there wasn't some special meaning behind it.

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 10:19 PM
I think it may be possible she laid in that particular spot as a way of "rebirth" or back to infancy. Full cycle, No pain etc...

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 10:22 PM
The day her child was born or died perhaps?

Gosh, where we would even begin to trace deceased children with only that date, no year and no location if the baby is not in that cemetery?
Do you think the cemetery holds significance, other than it is a cemetery?

Could the tree be a nod of sorts to Christians, born again?

Just brain storming.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 10:30 PM
Exactly 7 days before Christmas... Maybe it is her OWN DOB?

Maybe in and out of the world on her 50th? Like the $50 bills?
Just a thought...

She was poetic...

I wonder how she got to the cemetery and taking a tree at that?

Her clothes were possibly from Saks Fifth Avenue, so I don't think she was homeless, she had also drank brandy.

They said the cemetery wouldn't have been known to a drifter.

I find it ironic she listens to comedy tapes while she takes her life.

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 10:32 PM
The tree looks like one of the pre-decorated ones. Those lil' red bows and gold balls.
It was only 8 inches tall.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 10:34 PM
The day her child was born or died perhaps?

Gosh, where we would even begin to trace deceased children with only that date, no year and no location if the baby is not in that cemetery?
Do you think the cemetery holds significance, other than it is a cemetery?

Could the tree be a nod of sorts to Christians, born again?

Just brain storming.


I think somehow it does. Also all the stones nearby were fairly recent. Grandchild maybe?

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 10:36 PM
I am familiar with the "Redneck" tape but not the Monty Python, Holy Grail tape. What was that about, if you know, please?

ETA: I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python_and_the_Holy_Grail

This woman left lots of clues, a puzzle. IMO she did it on purpose.
She seems to have had a sense of humor.

Her poetry just screams English teacher to me, idk.

Or...perhaps she was in or just loved the Theater?

Quote from the wiki article:
Dentist on the Job was a 1961 comedy starring Bob Monkhouse. Its alternate title is Get On With It, a phrase spoken multiple times throughout Holy Grail.) Endquote

"Get on with it" ? Strange.

This lady is a puzzle that will bug me now.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 10:46 PM
Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner doing their "2000 year old man" routine.

This is the one she listened to as she passed away.


ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Year_Old_Man

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 11:04 PM
2000 Years with Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks (1961)
2000 and One Years with Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks (1961)
Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks at the Cannes Film Festival (1962)
2000 and Thirteen (1973)
The 2000 Year Old Man in the Year 2000 (1998)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Year_Old_Man


I wonder which of those earlier tapes she had?

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Thanks RubyRed.

I am going to try to match her to a few MP's and then crash.
Work tomorrow, ugh. lol.

Meet back here soon!

TY again!
G'night.

ETA: It shows a pic of the tape, can you tell by that?

It couldn't be the last one as she died in 1996.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 11:20 PM
I'm not sure if that is the Monty one, I enlarged it but still couldn't read it. lol

On e-bay it shows the others but in cd, not cassette, and the pic isn't the same.

Still looking.

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 11:27 PM
The tree looks like one of the pre-decorated ones. Those lil' red bows and gold balls.
It was only 8 inches tall.

That's right, thanks for reminding me. Do you think it could have been meant for placing on a grave?

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 11:28 PM
https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1200/38/
NamUs Mp #1200 went missing two years earlier.

Margarett Marion.

Could she have faked her death jumping off the Chesapeake Bridge, spent two years somewhere and then really commit suicide in the graveyard? The glasses look similar but I can't see the arms on the glasses in the UID pic. In two years she could have cut her hair much shorter.

ETA, I am sure others before me have thought of this.

LOL! Yes, now reading the thread, she has been looked at before.

dsntslp
08-20-2010, 11:30 PM
That's right, thanks for reminding me. Do you think it could have been meant for placing on a grave?Well, she wanted to be cremated, so yes, it would be small enough for cremated remains burial?

RubyRed
08-20-2010, 11:40 PM
Well, she wanted to be cremated, so yes, it would be small enough for cremated remains burial?


I was thinking more along the lines of one of the other graves that were there.
One of the infant ones maybe?

carbuff
08-20-2010, 11:49 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of one of the other graves that were there.
One of the infant ones maybe?

It seemed more like she surrounded herself with pleasant things -- the pretty tree, her favorite tapes, some good brandy.

Re: the upscale clothing -- while those are high end brands, those are also brands you can get at places like Filene's Basement, Frugal Fannie's, and the like.

dsntslp
08-21-2010, 12:00 AM
This missing person looks closer to Jane Doe then the other IMO however let me know what you think!
Evelyn L Piper
Case File 1133DFALI think this one looks most like the UID. The artist who did the pic of the UID even tried to capture the flat part of the bottom lip.

dsntslp
08-21-2010, 12:01 AM
I would think if the tree were meant for a baby's grave she would have placed it there or marked the name on the tree, but that does not coincide with not wanting to be ID'd.

carbuff
08-21-2010, 10:22 AM
A neonatal or children's ICU nurse who made a mistake and caused a baby's death?

A woman who lost contact with her own child and tried to reconnect by dying among children?

Something about her looks like teacher rather than nurse to me. But she could be almost any profession.

RubyRed
08-21-2010, 02:23 PM
You don't get to this age without some type of friends, relationships, family and work past. I think if her face were put out there more someone would recognize her.

dogperson
08-22-2010, 02:32 PM
According to the Find A Grave website, this cemetery is ethnic & African American. There is a record on the website of the grave markers for the babies and they are mostly what I'd call, "foreign-sounding names" for lack of a better word. I think it's unlikely that any of the babies were blood related to the UID unless there was a mixed marriage in her family because this lady couldn't look any more Caucasian. Has anyone followed up on whether this could be Evelyn Piper? Someone mentioned her and I see a resemblance if the UID's hair was fluffed up.

masnitram
08-22-2010, 11:43 PM
I saw a creepy resemblance between Linda Carol Taylor and the depiction of the deceased. While Linda disappeared in 1983 and is listed a little tall and a little "lightweight" and a little young; for what its worth here is a link to Linda...
http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/mpccn/ltaylor.html

fmw63
09-07-2010, 04:31 PM
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200301575W

Teresa Larson
09-08-2010, 01:30 AM
I saw a creepy resemblance between Linda Carol Taylor and the depiction of the deceased. While Linda disappeared in 1983 and is listed a little tall and a little "lightweight" and a little young; for what its worth here is a link to Linda...
http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/mpccn/ltaylor.html
Sorry in my opinion there is no resemblance at all. I believe the woman found at the cemetery could be Puerto Rican.

hollye
12-01-2010, 02:59 PM
Sorry in my opinion there is no resemblance at all. I believe the woman found at the cemetery could be Puerto Rican.


I have read through this entire thread and have seen you repeatedly state that you feel the woman is Puerto Rican. Can you please describe why you believe this, as she does not strike me as so? In fact, she reminds me of my grandmother, who was definitely not Puerto Rican. I am just curious.

ThePhantom
12-01-2010, 03:25 PM
It's tragic to think one can die in a cemetary and no one will ever coming looking. Geez...this case has bothered me for years. I wonder what her ethnicity is -- on another board, there was a sleuther who was convinced she was part African American. This is the first time I've heard Puerto Rican as being a possibility. I wish we knew for sure what her ancestry is. To me, she looked like someone who probably lived alone for many years, had a good job at one time, had no family (at least locally), and clearly had no friends who would miss her, because her picture was in the paper a lot at the time she was found. Wierd -- you'd think someone at the drycleaners, grocery store, bank, restaurant, gas station, doctor's office, hair salon, neighborhood would recognize her, but no -- apparently not. Just plain sad.

carbuff
12-01-2010, 03:56 PM
If this is the cemetery, I don't know whether I agree about it being a place that a traveller or drifter wouldn't find. It appears to be right on the Little River Parkway just off the Capital Beltway:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Pleasant+Valley+Memorial+Park,+Annandale,+VA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.902929,93.779297&ie=UTF8&hq=Pleasant+Valley+Memorial+Park,&hnear=Annandale,+Fairfax,+Virginia&ll=38.838371,-77.235786&spn=0.006418,0.011448&t=h&z=17

I notice there are several schools in the immediate area, too. Hmm.

She looks a lot like one of my junior high English teachers. Hm, wonder what ever became of her?

hollye
12-01-2010, 04:33 PM
If this is the cemetery, I don't know whether I agree about it being a place that a traveller or drifter wouldn't find. It appears to be right on the Little River Parkway just off the Capital Beltway:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Pleasant+Valley+Memorial+Park,+Annandale,+VA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.902929,93.779297&ie=UTF8&hq=Pleasant+Valley+Memorial+Park,&hnear=Annandale,+Fairfax,+Virginia&ll=38.838371,-77.235786&spn=0.006418,0.011448&t=h&z=17

I notice there are several schools in the immediate area, too. Hmm.

She looks a lot like one of my junior high English teachers. Hm, wonder what ever became of her?


You are correct about the location. I hadn't looked it up on a map, but knew location sounded familiar. This is on a very heavily traveled road and is directly across form a large community college. Wakefiled Chapel Road is also a very popular cut through from another major road to Little River Turnpike. I doubt that I can get there this week or this weekend, as I have family coming into town. It may be possible that I could go and take pictures of the area at some point, so that you all can get a better feel for the area.

Julessleuther
12-01-2010, 07:22 PM
I like this theory--maybe she was a nurse, and witnessed one of the babies deaths or something. Maybe we should research how the babies died that were close to her death date? Personally I think she looks European. She actually looks german to me. She has similar features to my own grandmother. Something about the graves, or the location of where she was found keeps getting to me. I wonder if maybe she was a nurse who delivered babies? I don't know, just a theory I was thinking of. Maybe she had a particular love for babies. It's sad though.

With the DNR on the bracelet I wonder if maybe she was in the medical field and saw what trying to save a persons life looked like and decided that wasn't for her.

When I was looking at the Christmas tree I thought maybe there was a connection to children in that also. Maybe the two (location and tree) have something to do with each other. Maybe Christmas meant something to her as a child or with a child of her own.

Julessleuther
12-01-2010, 07:37 PM
The clothes were actually from Nordstrom. I agree with you--how did she get the tree to the cemetery? The one thing that nags at the back of my head is the typed note, not hand-written. I wonder if there is any chance at all that she was actually murdered, maybe by a husband, boyfriend, family member, or a stalker. With a typed note, there is no chance of handwriting comparison. I could be way off base, but I wonder if LE checked for fingerprints on the bag and tape, or did they just automatically rule suicide? I wonder how she got to the cemetery and taking a tree at that?

Her clothes were possibly from Saks Fifth Avenue, so I don't think she was homeless, she had also drank brandy.

They said the cemetery wouldn't have been known to a drifter.

I find it ironic she listens to comedy tapes while she takes her life.

carbuff
12-01-2010, 10:58 PM
The clothes were actually from Nordstrom. I agree with you--how did she get the tree to the cemetery? The one thing that nags at the back of my head is the typed note, not hand-written. I wonder if there is any chance at all that she was actually murdered, maybe by a husband, boyfriend, family member, or a stalker. With a typed note, there is no chance of handwriting comparison. I could be way off base, but I wonder if LE checked for fingerprints on the bag and tape, or did they just automatically rule suicide?

According to the data, the tree is small, about 8" tall, and she had a backpack with her, so getting it there wasn't an issue.

The typed note makes sense if she didn't want to be identified. And even if she had handwritten it, there's nothing to compare the writing to.

Where did you see that the clothes are from Nortstrom? The Doenet entry suggests Saks. If it's Norstrom, that might be a clue -- they had only just begun to move into the east in 1996.

Julessleuther
12-02-2010, 01:21 AM
Back in the earlier remarks about this (entry #80) I indicated that I had researched and found that the clothes were a Nordstrom exclusive brand/label. I believe someone else also found them to be a Nordstrom exclusive label. Also, I used to do corporate travel for Nordstrom, and they were east and in the VA area by 1992-several years before she died. In entry #40, RMF contacted Nordstrom corporate, and they indicated that Nordstrom's were in the area for at least 20 yrs. (RMF called them in 2007.)

There was a bunch of research done on the cemetery and the items found with her back in 2007-although the juices are European, they can be purchased in the United States. The closest metro station is about 4 miles (I believe) so she would have had to walk a distance. Perhaps she was dropped off by a taxi or there is a bus stop near the cemetery. She had to get there some how.

A typed note just seems so odd. Where did she type it? She either had to live near by, where she had access to a typewriter, or she carried it with her from where ever, until she needed to use it? She has to be local, at least for a reasonable amount of time to understand the logistics of transportation to the cemetery. So if she was local-why did no one realize that she was missing?

Has anyone been in contact with LE personally for her? I would love to know if she was lying on someones grave, or the exact graves she was near. Those who have seen the post-mordem--is the artists rendering fairly accurate?

According to the data, the tree is small, about 8" tall, and she had a backpack with her, so getting it there wasn't an issue.

The typed note makes sense if she didn't want to be identified. And even if she had handwritten it, there's nothing to compare the writing to.

Where did you see that the clothes are from Nortstrom? The Doenet entry suggests Saks. If it's Norstrom, that might be a clue -- they had only just begun to move into the east in 1996.

Julessleuther
12-02-2010, 02:50 AM
Height is slightly off, as is hair color (but that can be changed) Glasses are so similar though, as is curly hair!

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200705321S

Teresa Larson
12-02-2010, 06:37 AM
I have read through this entire thread and have seen you repeatedly state that you feel the woman is Puerto Rican. Can you please describe why you believe this, as she does not strike me as so? In fact, she reminds me of my grandmother, who was definitely not Puerto Rican. I am just curious.
I think she looks Puerto Rican or even Swedish because of her skin color and her hair although I know she could have died it too. She did have expensive clothes on however she could have bought them at a second hand store too. I am German and personally do not see any resemblance to German people. She definitely knew what she was doing to keep someone from identifying her. Which also makes me think that she didn't want her friends and family to know what happened to her. She might have been mad or upset with them. I think there was a reason she chose that specific place to die. All of this is just my personal opinion. IF I lived close to that area I would take a picture of her to the places, schools, churches etc to see if anybody recognized her. I know her picture was in the newspaper but not everybody reads the paper especially if you are from a different country and don't know English very well Which could have been the situation in this case. :twocents:

OnlineInstructor
12-02-2010, 03:06 PM
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200301575W

Another link with more pictures

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/126/39/

hollye
12-02-2010, 03:17 PM
Another link with more pictures

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/126/39/

The only problem that I see with Carmella is that it states that she had pierced ears, while the UIP wore clipon earrings, if I am not mistaken. However, depending on who is doing the reporting, they may have assumed that she had pierced ears based on the fact that she wore earrings, instead of knowing what type.

Both women had abdominal scars, though it does not indicate whether or not the UID had a hysterectomy.

Puglover
12-02-2010, 05:16 PM
I really did not read all of the posts. So pardon me if someone already stated my concerns. How does LE know that this woman committed suicide instead of being murdered. A DNR bracelet could have been put on her by someone else. The suicide note could have been written by someone else. Someone else could have suffocated her and placed her body in the cemetery. I do hope that they did an autopsy on her and considered that this woman might have been murdered.

IDK maybe I have read too many murder stories.

I am hoping that LE looked further into this case early on when they found her as now it is probably too late if she had been murdered.

Just my :twocents:

carbuff
12-02-2010, 09:19 PM
Back in the earlier remarks about this (entry #80) I indicated that I had researched and found that the clothes were a Nordstrom exclusive brand/label. I believe someone else also found them to be a Nordstrom exclusive label. Also, I used to do corporate travel for Nordstrom, and they were east and in the VA area by 1992-several years before she died. In entry #40, RMF contacted Nordstrom corporate, and they indicated that Nordstrom's were in the area for at least 20 yrs. (RMF called them in 2007.)

There was a bunch of research done on the cemetery and the items found with her back in 2007-although the juices are European, they can be purchased in the United States. The closest metro station is about 4 miles (I believe) so she would have had to walk a distance. Perhaps she was dropped off by a taxi or there is a bus stop near the cemetery. She had to get there some how.

A typed note just seems so odd. Where did she type it? She either had to live near by, where she had access to a typewriter, or she carried it with her from where ever, until she needed to use it? She has to be local, at least for a reasonable amount of time to understand the logistics of transportation to the cemetery. So if she was local-why did no one realize that she was missing?

Has anyone been in contact with LE personally for her? I would love to know if she was lying on someones grave, or the exact graves she was near. Those who have seen the post-mordem--is the artists rendering fairly accurate?

I'm sorry, I was thinking I was in a different thread. OMG, I feel like such a donkey's behind now...:blushing:

JupiterAmmon
12-19-2010, 12:13 AM
Bump.

I always think of this case when it is xmas time, yesterday was the anniversary of her death. May she rest in peace.

reasypeasy
01-04-2011, 10:14 AM
I was looking through doenet trying to find a match for a different doe, and was reminded of the Annandale Jane Doe when I saw a photo of Magdelena Chindris. She went missing from Italy about a year and a half prior to Ms Doe being found. She too had attempted suicide, but her attempt is thought to have been unsuccessful.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1770dfita.html

Donjeta
02-27-2011, 03:11 PM
The victim's Namus page
https://identifyus.org/cases/6279

The only one in the rule out list is Iva Foss. Namus says DNA samples exist but the tests are not complete so apparently there are no Codis ruleouts by default.

VictoriaVictoria
05-12-2011, 11:16 AM
I too wonder if she were possibly murdered. :( I hope Dateline or some news show, shows some interest!

Teresa Larson
05-13-2011, 11:54 PM
There is no indication that she was murdered. She committed suicide. She mixed alcohol and Valium and had a do not resuscitate necklace or bracelet on. A murderer isn't going to go through all of the steps she did before she laid down to die. IMO This case has bothered me for a long time.

webrocket
05-16-2011, 08:19 AM
this is my take on this UID. first of all she knew exactly what she was doing. the DNR bracelet would prevent any medical person from interfering with her in the event she was found still alive.

I assume she was well educated and had a professional or semi-professional career. for whatever reason suicide was her final decision. she made it not only as painless as possible but with the tapes she made her exit as comfortable as possible.

it is more curious why she wanted to be unidentified. even so, that is what she opted for so part of me says leave well enough alone and maybe people should just respect that.

you'd think that somewhere there was an apartment left vacant, but if she went through this much planning, she probably vacated her last address prior to her suicide to minimize any possibility of someone putting 2 and 2 together. there is an outside chance she was a patient somewhere and that facilities might be unwilling to release that kind of information for patient privacy purposes. for that matter, she might have been in a care facility and voluntarily checked herself out and proceeded to do this. thus she might not have had a last home address in the classic sense.

JupiterAmmon
06-23-2011, 10:59 PM
Bump, thinking of this doe....someone out there must know who she is!!!!

RubyRed
09-02-2011, 04:07 PM
I had forgotten about this part,,

She had placed a plastic bag over her head and tied it off with tape.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

Donjeta
09-03-2011, 03:20 PM
According to the Find A Grave website, this cemetery is ethnic & African American. There is a record on the website of the grave markers for the babies and they are mostly what I'd call, "foreign-sounding names" for lack of a better word. I think it's unlikely that any of the babies were blood related to the UID unless there was a mixed marriage in her family because this lady couldn't look any more Caucasian. Has anyone followed up on whether this could be Evelyn Piper? Someone mentioned her and I see a resemblance if the UID's hair was fluffed up.

https://identifyus.org/cases/6279
Evelyn Piper is on the Namus ruleouts list, along with Iva Foss.

CarlK90245
10-12-2011, 06:17 PM
http://www.weespernieuws.nl/getpdf/2008/wn09jan08.pdf

This article, written in Dutch tells about Johanna Atalia Gersina De Haas, and how her daughter (who she gave up for adoption) is in search of her. The article mentions this UID Case.

http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Missing%20Persons%20Photos/2622443110045078242S600x600Q851.jpghttp://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/245UFVA.jpg
Johanna Atalia Gersina De Haas https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/12580/0
DoeNetwork Case 245UFWA http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html


Jane Doe
In 1985 she appealed to TROS Missing. Thanks to this TV program many children have already been reunited with their parents.

The investigators, after wanderings via Germany and Canada went to the United States to look into the case of an unknown woman who died in 1996. The approximately sixty year old woman had committed suicide on a children's graveyard. This 'Jane Doe' (as they call unidentified deceased in America) wore at the time of her death Dutch-made glasses and shows a resemblance to Johanna de Haas. Currently there is genetic research to compare her Black Jopie.

Rose: "When I look at the pictures, the likeness is so apt that I think that this woman is indeed my mother. I hope of course that it is not. I have yet so many questions which remain unanswered. I still would prefer to find a living mother. But if it is my mother, the least I can do for this unknown woman in that tomb is to give her a name. "

marycarney
10-12-2011, 06:27 PM
I don't think this was a cancer patient at all - I think she was a NURSE. We always joke about having NO CPR or DNR tatooed on our chests. And if you've ever witnessed an autopsy (which many, many nurses have during their training) would make you not want one. A nurse would have this put on their medic alert bracelet, along with their drug allergy.

The detailed planning, the careful hiding of her identity. It screams NURSE to me.

What say you?

CarlK90245
10-12-2011, 06:37 PM
I don't think this was a cancer patient at all - I think she was a NURSE. We always joke about having NO CPR or DNR tatooed on our chests. And if you've ever witnessed an autopsy (which many, many nurses have during their training) would make you not want one. A nurse would have this put on their medic alert bracelet, along with their drug allergy.

The detailed planning, the careful hiding of her identity. It screams NURSE to me.

What say you?

Sounds plausible.

Perhaps she was a nurse who felt guilt over the death of a child who she might have been able to save. (or who died as a result of her self-percieved negligence).

Teresa Larson
10-13-2011, 04:44 AM
I don't think this was a cancer patient at all - I think she was a NURSE. We always joke about having NO CPR or DNR tatooed on our chests. And if you've ever witnessed an autopsy (which many, many nurses have during their training) would make you not want one. A nurse would have this put on their medic alert bracelet, along with their drug allergy.

The detailed planning, the careful hiding of her identity. It screams NURSE to me.

What say you?

I agree totally. A normal every day person wouldn't realize to have that bracelet on. She wanted to make sure that if she was found they wouldn't try to resuscitate her. Sadly she definitely wanted to die. I have always wondered if the LED took a picture of her around to the hospitals in the area. There are a few of them near by. Somebody has to be missing her. She had to of lived some place. I have studied a lot of these cases over the years on here but this one has stuck in my mind for a long time. Another thing I thought of too was you have to take the correct amount of Valium and alcohol to kill yourself. If you take too much your body would reject it and you'd vomit. She knew how much to take....something a nurse would know too!

Teresa Larson
10-13-2011, 05:02 AM
this is my take on this UID. first of all she knew exactly what she was doing. the DNR bracelet would prevent any medical person from interfering with her in the event she was found still alive.

I assume she was well educated and had a professional or semi-professional career. for whatever reason suicide was her final decision. she made it not only as painless as possible but with the tapes she made her exit as comfortable as possible.

it is more curious why she wanted to be unidentified. even so, that is what she opted for so part of me says leave well enough alone and maybe people should just respect that.

you'd think that somewhere there was an apartment left vacant, but if she went through this much planning, she probably vacated her last address prior to her suicide to minimize any possibility of someone putting 2 and 2 together. there is an outside chance she was a patient somewhere and that facilities might be unwilling to release that kind of information for patient privacy purposes. for that matter, she might have been in a care facility and voluntarily checked herself out and proceeded to do this. thus she might not have had a last home address in the classic sense.


Most people that try to commit suicide and fail will tell you that they were glad they got a second chance at life. She might have felt the same way However she was drugged up and had alcohol in her system so it would have been almost impossible for her to change her mind or to think logically. I am sure somebody has been missing her from some where. Because she made sure that she couldn't be identified wouldn't stop me from trying to find her family. Maybe she didn't want to hurt them because she killed herself She might have thought that it would be easier on them if they thought she just disappeared. It's hard to know what goes through a persons mind

TxJan1971
04-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Could this possibly be Margaret M. Kilkoyne?

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kilcoyne_margaret.html

Age: Margaret went missing in 1980; she was 50. The UID was found in 1996, 16 years later. If Margaret had been alive in 1996, she would have been 66 in 1996, which does fit with the estimated age of the unidentified per NAMUS - 50-70 years old.

Height: The UID is reported to be 5'0". Margaret is reported to be 5'0".

Weight: The UID is reported to be 157 pounds. Margaret is reported to have weighed 140 back in 1980 when she first went missing. She could have gained 17 pounds in 16 years.

Hair: The UID is reported to have Red/Auburn hair. Margaret is reported to have red hair and blue eyes.

Eyes: The UID shows a photo of eyeglasses in NAMUS; Margaret is reported to have worn Horn rimmed eyeglasses back in 1980.

I also think that Margaret does resemble the UID.

NOTE: Margaret was a nurse who then went onto become a cardiologist. She is reported to have been experiencing severe mental stress and depression and/or mania at the time of her disappearance. She felt that people at work were spying on her.

She apparently was very educated and wealthy, as it is reported on Charley Project that she left behind an estate of $200,000. Her financial status and her education could account for her having the means to travel for 16 years or having the means to find other employment during those 16 years until perhaps her mental state overcame her and she committed suicide.

She was declared legally dead in 1989.

Anyone think this is worth a shot? I'd like to see the UID be identified. Anyone want to submit, please feel free to.

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/6279

CherBearSTL
04-01-2012, 02:15 PM
Could this possibly be Margaret M. Kilkoyne?

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kilcoyne_margaret.html

Age: Margaret went missing in 1980; she was 50. The UID was found in 1996, 16 years later. If Margaret had been alive in 1996, she would have been 66 in 1996, which does fit with the estimated age of the unidentified per NAMUS - 50-70 years old.

Height: The UID is reported to be 5'0". Margaret is reported to be 5'0".

Weight: The UID is reported to be 157 pounds. Margaret is reported to have weighed 140 back in 1980 when she first went missing. She could have gained 17 pounds in 16 years.

Hair: The UID is reported to have Red/Auburn hair. Margaret is reported to have red hair and blue eyes.

Eyes: The UID shows a photo of eyeglasses in NAMUS; Margaret is reported to have worn Horn rimmed eyeglasses back in 1980.

I also think that Margaret does resemble the UID.

NOTE: Margaret was a nurse who then went onto become a cardiologist. She is reported to have been experiencing severe mental stress and depression and/or mania at the time of her disappearance. She felt that people at work were spying on her.

She apparently was very educated and wealthy, as it is reported on Charley Project that she left behind an estate of $200,000. Her financial status and her education could account for her having the means to travel for 16 years or having the means to find other employment during those 16 years until perhaps her mental state overcame her and she committed suicide.

She was declared legally dead in 1989.

Anyone think this is worth a shot? I'd like to see the UID be identified. Anyone want to submit, please feel free to.

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/6279


I don't believe this is her, and here's why:
*UID had a c-section scar. Margaret's info lists nothing about children, and doesn't mention a husband or being previously married.
*I don't believe that Margaret was mentally stable enough to have enough money for 15 years to buy those types of clothing that the UID was found wearing.
* I don't see a resemblance, specifically in the eye spacing.

This lady was probably not homeless for very long...just my opinion. I would bet that Margaret is either deceased or homeless.

Fin
04-01-2012, 02:26 PM
The biggest problem with Margaret Kilkoyne is the 16 year interval from 1980 and 1996. I do not think her a hidden/underground lifestyle for 16 years would have satisfied her personality.

I also think the UID did not have much money. $50 is a joke towards cremation costs. She did not want to die at home, or address estate issues.

Although it is possible this is a nurse, I dismiss this theory about lying down among the graves of infants due to being bothered by previous patient circumstances or mistakes. The likelihood of that scenario could be applied to any female who dealt with a loss in their lifetime and not necessarily applicable to a nurse not coping well in her profession. What I do see is a person very intent on suicide, who has meticulously planned its execution,and who wanted to insure that she was not revived. This was someone who was mentally ill/depressed who was focused on ending her life.

CherBearSTL
04-01-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't believe this is her, and here's why:
*UID had a c-section scar. Margaret's info lists nothing about children, and doesn't mention a husband or being previously married.
*I don't believe that Margaret was mentally stable enough to have enough money for 15 years to buy those types of clothing that the UID was found wearing.
* I don't see a resemblance, specifically in the eye spacing.

This lady was probably not homeless for very long...just my opinion. I would bet that Margaret is either deceased or homeless.

Here's a side-by side:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/245UFVA.jpghttp://charleyproject.org/images/k/kilcoyne_margaret.jpg

necco
04-01-2012, 05:55 PM
A nurse would know that suicide is against the law in every state (or was in 1996) and that the DNR would not be honored in the case of an attempted suicide. I don't believe her wearing the bracelet is necessarily linked to her suicide. If it was, why would it list a drug allergy? The drug allergy listing shows forward thinking, indicating it was not acquired while she was suicidal. A suicide attempt invalidates a DNR because a) it is a crime (or was at the time, I know some states are in the process of implementing doctor assisted suicide) and b) the patient is deemed to be not of sound mind so unable to make those decisions herself.

That being said, I think her being a nurse is entirely possible. A nurse friend of mine talked about all the suicides gone wrong she had treated and described this particular manner as the best way to go. Benzos, alcohol and a plastic bag... you just go to sleep.

wintermute
04-01-2012, 06:16 PM
Another thing I thought of too was you have to take the correct amount of Valium and alcohol to kill yourself. If you take too much your body would reject it and you'd vomit. She knew how much to take....something a nurse would know too!

I think she took the Valium and alcohol to relax and make her passing go smoother. The case information indicates that she died from suffocation due to having the plastic bag over her head, not from a Valium and alcohol overdose.

Anon1976
04-03-2012, 11:37 PM
I believe the main reason this case isn't complete is because there was not a ton of media reports on it in the area. I have lived next to the cemetery since the mid 80's and only found out about this case a few years ago while looking at FFX Co PD's cold case info on their site. Assuming that this cemetery has always been ethnic is a big mistake (I have seen a lot of people saying that is is hispanic or african american). Currently it is primarily funerals for African Americans and I have never seen a funeral for anyone who is hispanic at the cemetery. It used to have a lot of Caucasians but as the ethnic diversity in the area changed so did it's clientele. Yes, it was once owned by a hispanic company but that was for maybe about a year then it went under new management again. There are also a lot of firefighter's, EMT's and Police Officer's who have been buried there over the years (their funerals are hard to miss with all the trucks being brought out for them).

If I had to guess her ethnicity by just looking at the picture I would have to say she is German or from somewhere in Europe. I do hope that this case gets resolved soon as I would be surprised if there wasn't someone out there looking for her. If I'm correct the manager of the cemetery at that time passed away recently and I'm not sure if her husband is still around or not (he was not doing too good the last time I saw him a few years ago, he was the maintenance guy at the cemetery until the mid-late 90's). I'm not sure where the baby section is at the cemetery but would have to assume it's towards the back as during that time they had someone living at the cemetery to keep an eye on the place at night due to kids going back there to party and get drunk.

Sallust
04-04-2012, 09:13 AM
I wouldn't say the UID was poor, more likely she gave away her belongings and money prior to her suicide. I'd go with the "being a nurse" suggestion. I reckon she worked as a children's nurse or midwife earlier in her life. For me it explains why she'd want to die there but then again it's pure speculation.

The degree of planning that has gone into this suicide puts it on a par with Lyle Stevik. This poor woman, whether she aimed to or not, has left us with quite a mystery to remember her by.

VictoriaVictoria
05-24-2012, 06:32 PM
I wouldn't say the UID was poor, more likely she gave away her belongings and money prior to her suicide. I'd go with the "being a nurse" suggestion. I reckon she worked as a children's nurse or midwife earlier in her life. For me it explains why she'd want to die there but then again it's pure speculation.

The degree of planning that has gone into this suicide puts it on a par with Lyle Stevik. This poor woman, whether she aimed to or not, has left us with quite a mystery to remember her by.


I wish they would have a TV series based on all these stories! I think about this case. How sad that no one can find out who she is!!

mamashawn
05-26-2012, 06:11 PM
I was looking through doenet trying to find a match for a different doe, and was reminded of the Annandale Jane Doe when I saw a photo of Magdelena Chindris. She went missing from Italy about a year and a half prior to Ms Doe being found. She too had attempted suicide, but her attempt is thought to have been unsuccessful.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1770dfita.html

https://identifyus.org/en/medias/show/4725http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/MChindris.jpg

They height and age are right. Hair is very close. I think the ears and dmouth are very similar. Nothing about a scar or glasses for Chindris.

pearly
05-27-2012, 07:06 PM
https://identifyus.org/en/medias/show/4725http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/MChindris.jpg

They height and age are right. Hair is very close. I think the ears and dmouth are very similar. Nothing about a scar or glasses for Chindris.

They do look similar....are you going to submit as a potential match?

P

astridxx
09-25-2012, 01:06 PM
No updates on the case?

JupiterAmmon
09-25-2012, 03:43 PM
There is another thread for this case on this board. Here is the link:

VA VA - Annandale - White Female 245UFVA, 60, Dec 1996 - "NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin"

astridxx
09-26-2012, 11:37 AM
Has anyone mentioned where she got the Brandy from?

There is a shopping center not far from that memorial park -- maybe 5-10 miles. The shopping center had a Loehmann's (in fact the center is called Loehmann's Plaza, it's in Falls Church). There is a Giant brand grocery store down the street from LP, which is probably where she got the juice from as earlier stated. Last, there is an ABC store up the road where Bailey's Crossroads is. Actually, there was also a grocery store (that has since been closed down though I don't think it was a Giant.. I think it was a Super Fresh) there a LONG time ago and a upper-end off-rack clothing store, too., that may or may not still be there.

So, our Annandale, VA JD must have been around that area or centralized to that area the day of or the day before her disappearance. There's a Guitar Center over there, too, and a HUGE Asian stripmall/super market. Annandale is known to have a high Asian population, and a high Hispanic population.


I'm gonna be honest, I think she chose the cemetery because it was a secluded spot, not heavily trafficked like everywhere else in northern VA, and maybe, if she was poetic, it was her way of "returning to whence she came"... you know, a time/life cycle symbolic thing.


Anyway, just my .02.

Oh, and there's a Nordstrom in Tyson's Corner Mall and has been for a LONG time. TCM is only about 5-10 minutes down 495 or Rt 7 (which would be more direct in her line of grocery store/abc store shopping trip).

carbuff
09-26-2012, 11:57 AM
Has anyone mentioned where she got the Brandy from?

There is a shopping center not far from that memorial park -- maybe 5-10 miles. The shopping center had a Loehmann's (in fact the center is called Loehmann's Plaza, it's in Falls Church). There is a Giant brand grocery store down the street from LP, which is probably where she got the juice from as earlier stated. Last, there is an ABC store up the road where Bailey's Crossroads is. Actually, there was also a grocery store (that has since been closed down though I don't think it was a Giant.. I think it was a Super Fresh) there a LONG time ago and a upper-end off-rack clothing store, too., that may or may not still be there.

So, our Annandale, VA JD must have been around that area or centralized to that area the day of or the day before her disappearance. There's a Guitar Center over there, too, and a HUGE Asian stripmall/super market. Annandale is known to have a high Asian population, and a high Hispanic population.


I'm gonna be honest, I think she chose the cemetery because it was a secluded spot, not heavily trafficked like everywhere else in northern VA, and maybe, if she was poetic, it was her way of "returning to whence she came"... you know, a time/life cycle symbolic thing.


Anyway, just my .02.

Oh, and there's a Nordstrom in Tyson's Corner Mall and has been for a LONG time. TCM is only about 5-10 minutes down 495 or Rt 7 (which would be more direct in her line of grocery store/abc store shopping trip).

BBM -- I agree with you one hundred percent. She had a Christmas tree and presumably her favorite comedy routines. Sipping brandy and listening to music. She did everything she could to make it as pleasant and painless as possible.

I keep not coming up with reasons why she'd want to check out of life. She seems to be a woman who had enjoyed it right up to the end. I wonder if her husband/partner had recently died and she felt like she couldn't go on without him?

astridxx
09-26-2012, 12:34 PM
https://identifyus.org/en/medias/show/4725http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/images/MChindris.jpg

They height and age are right. Hair is very close. I think the ears and dmouth are very similar. Nothing about a scar or glasses for Chindris.


I don't see it. The one on the right -- her lips are a little too plump and nose too bulbous.

I understand the reconstruction of JD has a broader, flatter nose which may imply some sort of Hispanic (at some point) or African-American ancestry. But, as far as I can see she's white/Caucasian. If there's anything but white in her in dated way back in her line.

carbuff
09-26-2012, 12:52 PM
A nurse would know that suicide is against the law in every state (or was in 1996) and that the DNR would not be honored in the case of an attempted suicide. I don't believe her wearing the bracelet is necessarily linked to her suicide. If it was, why would it list a drug allergy? The drug allergy listing shows forward thinking, indicating it was not acquired while she was suicidal. A suicide attempt invalidates a DNR because a) it is a crime (or was at the time, I know some states are in the process of implementing doctor assisted suicide) and b) the patient is deemed to be not of sound mind so unable to make those decisions herself.

That being said, I think her being a nurse is entirely possible. A nurse friend of mine talked about all the suicides gone wrong she had treated and described this particular manner as the best way to go. Benzos, alcohol and a plastic bag... you just go to sleep.

I've been meaning to look this up for a while -- and it isn't true. *Assisted* suicide is illegal, but by early 1990's only two states still criminalized individual suicide attempts. Even before that, the laws were rarely enforced (see Wikipedia, Suicide legislation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). It sounds like Virginia still criminalizes suicide, which can have some bearing on inheritance and liability.

It may have had some bearing on the location, however -- a place where she was unlikely to be found in time for any medical measures to be applied.

carbuff
09-26-2012, 01:12 PM
I don't think so, because Jane Doe is 4 inches shorter than the other lady.

Women past menopause can shrink this much over a few years if they have osteoporosis. I don't know whether that applies to either woman, but I thought I'd mention it for future searches.

astridxx
09-26-2012, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure how ABC laws were back in the day but I'd be willing to bet this woman was familiar with the area. Maybe she had family here at some point? You don't just plan a suicide like this without knowing the area, you know? You don't just make a shopping beeline and happen upon a graveyard. IMO she, like I stated earlier, stop in a straight line down rt 50 in Falls Church. ABC Store, Giant (for the juice and maybe a prescription refill pick up) and Loehmann's for the outfit. We'd better be able to tell WHEN she purchased the outfit she was wearing if we knew how faded the clothes were. Obviously newly bought clothes will still be bright and of good quality.

Now, I have NO clue what ID checking technology was like back in 1995 because I was only 12 then. But, maybe there is a list of ABC stores in Falls Church / Annandale somewhere from the mid-90s. She didn't find the brandy on a street corner -- she had to have purchased it. I know she's an older woman, but let's just hope for law's sake the clerk at the ABC store ID'ed her. I know NOW they scan and record every ID to every purchase... think they had something similar back then???


For those who don't know, brandy is only attainable through the ABC stores here. VA does not have stand alone liquor stores. All liquor sales are controlled by the state.

astridxx
09-26-2012, 02:13 PM
I've emailed VABC public relations to see if they can provide a list of stores near rt 50/rt 7 from 1995 - 1996. I'll let you know what I found out.

carbuff
09-26-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm not sure how ABC laws were back in the day but I'd be willing to bet this woman was familiar with the area. Maybe she had family here at some point? You don't just plan a suicide like this without knowing the area, you know? You don't just make a shopping beeline and happen upon a graveyard. IMO she, like I stated earlier, stop in a straight line down rt 50 in Falls Church. ABC Store, Giant (for the juice and maybe a prescription refill pick up) and Loehmann's for the outfit. We'd better be able to tell WHEN she purchased the outfit she was wearing if we knew how faded the clothes were. Obviously newly bought clothes will still be bright and of good quality.

Now, I have NO clue what ID checking technology was like back in 1995 because I was only 12 then. But, maybe there is a list of ABC stores in Falls Church / Annandale somewhere from the mid-90s. She didn't find the brandy on a street corner -- she had to have purchased it. I know she's an older woman, but let's just hope for law's sake the clerk at the ABC store ID'ed her. I know NOW they scan and record every ID to every purchase... think they had something similar back then???


For those who don't know, brandy is only attainable through the ABC stores here. VA does not have stand alone liquor stores. All liquor sales are controlled by the state.

That's a plausible scenario. I don't know about Virginia, but in New England she probably wouldn't have even had to show an ID. There was a lot of personal freedom to move around and not have every move monitored back then.

As carefully as she planned everything, I imagine she picked out a favorite outfit -- or bought it a day or two before. Am I remembering correctly that you said there's a Nordstrom's nearby?

astridxx
09-26-2012, 02:40 PM
That's a plausible scenario. I don't know about Virginia, but in New England she probably wouldn't have even had to show an ID. There was a lot of personal freedom to move around and not have every move monitored back then.

As carefully as she planned everything, I imagine she picked out a favorite outfit -- or bought it a day or two before. Am I remembering correctly that you said there's a Nordstrom's nearby?



http://i48.tinypic.com/14nlhep.jpg

From the top:

1.) Tysons Corner (that has a Nordstrom's)
2.) Giant (brand) Grocery Store
3.) Loehmann's Plaza (Loehmann's sells out of season top-designer names at discount prices)
4.) ABC store (current day) down at the bottom near rt 620

The marker "A" is the memorial garden.

astridxx
09-26-2012, 02:44 PM
Actually, present day there stands both an ABC store AND a Giant at the very bottom purple circle.... I'm not sure if it was there in 1996 though.

traacker13
09-26-2012, 02:58 PM
I apologize if this has already been posted, but do you think there is any relevance to her laying down next to where the infants were buried? Do you think it's possible that she may have lost an infant? Just putting it out there - not sure there is any relevance, but wondering if there might be???

traacker13
09-26-2012, 03:01 PM
I also wonder too that if she has gone through the trouble of trying not to have people identify her if her hair color/cut may have been altered in an attempt to throw people off as well...

carbuff
09-26-2012, 03:06 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/14nlhep.jpg

From the top:

1.) Tysons Corner (that has a Nordstrom's)
2.) Giant (brand) Grocery Store
3.) Loehmann's Plaza (Loehmann's sells out of season top-designer names at discount prices)
4.) ABC store (current day) down at the bottom near rt 620

The marker "A" is the memorial garden.

Thank you, that makes everything much clearer.

I asked about Nordstrom because she's wearing Classiques Entier, which is a Nordstrom line.

astridxx
09-26-2012, 03:31 PM
I apologize if this has already been posted, but do you think there is any relevance to her laying down next to where the infants were buried? Do you think it's possible that she may have lost an infant? Just putting it out there - not sure there is any relevance, but wondering if there might be???

Yep, it's been brought up.

I personally don't think it has anything to do with an infant. I think she picked a quiet, serene place to retire. Northern VA is SO busy and there are few quiet places around here. It makes perfect sense that someone from this area would choose a cemetery.

astridxx
09-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Okay the VABC Public Affairs people wrote back and said

"I'm sorry we would not have that information."

I'm going to reply and ask how they kept track of sales back in the day. *tee hee* I lied and said "I'm doing ~research for a ~college paper" :) Let's see if that works...

astridxx
09-26-2012, 03:57 PM
http://www.vermistepersonen.info/vermistepersonen/60261105.asp

Someone says she may be JOHANNA ATALIA GERSINA DE HAAS

Not sure if this has been brought up before

LunaticFringe
09-26-2012, 04:07 PM
http://www.vermistepersonen.info/vermistepersonen/60261105.asp

Someone says she may be JOHANNA ATALIA GERSINA DE HAAS

Not sure if this has been brought up before


Maybe I am off base here but I don't see her being a Jeff Foxworthy fan.

astridxx
09-26-2012, 04:12 PM
Maybe I am off base here but I don't see her being a Jeff Foxworthy fan.

LOL yeah I kind of see the resemblance of her and the picture but not really.

Might I note a lot of buzz on the fairfax underground board that people think she's related to the Gooding / Seaton family which has a person cemetery nearby PV. However, the last person buried there died in 1902 or so...

Also, might I note there is a community college right across the street from PV. Probably not related but who knows. Maybe she got an F in Physics and was depressed?

astridxx
09-26-2012, 04:24 PM
<modsnip>

So, this case/dna thing is still being worked out, I assume? Almost a year later? I'll go google her ;)

astridxx
09-26-2012, 07:39 PM
What if she picked the cemetery for its name? Like an homage to a family members home town or her birth place? Aren't there several "pleasant valley, USA"s???

micheleonelonly
09-26-2012, 11:33 PM
What if she picked the cemetery for its name? Like an homage to a family members home town or her birth place? Aren't there several "pleasant valley, USA"s???

We have a Pleasant Valley here in NV, just between Reno and Carson City, in the Washoe Valley area. Your idea got me thinking, so I looked through women missing from that area and found one questionable possible. Mary Carter.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/carter_mary.html

There doesn't seem to be much information about her. Not sure if she lived in Washoe Valley or if she was perhaps hitchhiking from Reno or something. I see a similarity in the noses, and if Mary gained a bit of weight,the wrinkles in her face may have smoothed out.

It's not great though: the height is off by 3", large time discrepancy, no mention of scars on Mary, and Mary's story (sparse as it is) leads me to believe that she was murdered back in 1984.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 08:40 AM
@mich -- I can see it... I wonder if maybe they "found" her wallet because she was shedding her identity and wanted to just leave it all behind.

The biggest thing that irritates me about Jane Doe of Annandale is that I haven't seen her eye color mentioned. Anywhere. Maybe I missed it?

Anyway, I may stop by PV at some point next week (I work right down the road) and maybe take some pics, look at the stones in the cemetery.

dogperson
09-27-2012, 12:58 PM
Just a thought and forgive me if its been mentioned before, but there is always the possibility that her family knows who she is and chose not to claim the body. It wouldn't be the first time and there could be a great deal of reasons why. She could be their estranged mother and there could have been a lot of bitterness in the family and no desire to claim her. Or the family could have been unable to afford to deal with her remains. Just because she was wearing expensive clothing does not necessarily mean she was comfortably off. She could have spent the last money she had on the clothing and the articles that were with her. If she were well off and her family knew she committed suicide, then that would throw out my idea that they just didn't claim the body, because that would deny them access to her estate. It's puzzling and it does seem as if she knew the area somewhat. You would think if a woman went missing in the area she would have left behind an abandoned home or apartment, a bank account, friends, something! Although in the case of her being a tenant, I will say that my husband and I used to own a fair amount of rental properties and folks would often move out secretly before the next month's rent was due, sometimes leaving nearly all their possessions behind. Never once did it occur to us that they may have gone missing, we just assumed they didn't have the rent money. After 30 days we simply disposed of their abandoned belongings and rented the property to a new tenant. So I am not sure a landlord would think something was amiss, especially if she had not lived there long, and most especially if she were staying in a hotel/boarding house/efficiency apartment where tenants come and go all the time.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 01:29 PM
@dogperson - thank you for shedding light on the renter/rentee aspect. I always wondered how landlords wouldn't notice/get suspicious.

Couple of things: ABC did not record license to purchase back then like they do now. There would be no record of her name attached to the brandy. There may be a purchase record but it was over 10 years ago, I doubt anyone has that.

Also, I was thinking, maybe she DIDN'T know the area because, if she did in fact go to the places I pointed out on the map, they're all lumped pretty closely together. Or maybe it was an impulse and convenient, IDK.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 01:33 PM
Pleasant Valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

here's the list of PV's all across the US -- I still would like to think maybe she picked this particular one because of it's name and the possibility it's associated with her home town.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 01:42 PM
http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_and_Missing/Missing/view.cfm?ID=32528dc2-ba47-45d9-ad3e-4d1c7214594d Judith Guerin

http://i49.tinypic.com/ao15bs.jpg

Basic Information
Race: White
Sex: Female
DOB: October 6, 1945
Height: 5' 2"
Weight: 180 pounds
Eyes: Hazel
Hair: Blonde



Jane Doe
Estimated age Adult - Pre 70
Minimum age 50 years
Maximum age 70 years
Race White
Ethnicity
Sex Female
Weight (pounds) 157, Measured
Height (inches) 60, Measured (5'0")




It wouldn't work with my theory though -- the woman missing from NY lived up near Buffalo... and the only Pleasant Valley, NY is near NYC.

carbuff
09-27-2012, 06:01 PM
This certainly looks like a possibility. The glasses match. Charley Project indicates Judith Guerin does have a c-section scar. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/geurin_judith.html

It also says her life was a mess and she may have left voluntarily to avoid prosecution. She worked as a cook in a restaurant, so she could have found work almost anywhere.

There is a Pleasant Valley Road just south of Sodus Point. I doubt this is more than coincidence, however; Google maps turns up 313 Pleasant Valley Road, Lane, etc. in addition to places named Pleasant Valley, so most anyplace we look is going to have Pleasant Valley Something nearby.

Here's an interesting article about Ms. Guerin: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/22/nyregion/22search.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

And here's a thread for Ms. Guerin on websleuths: NY NY - Judith A. Geurin, 45, Sodus Point, 28 Jan 1991 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community. Our UID was proposed as a match there, but nobody seems to have followed up.

carbuff
09-27-2012, 06:33 PM
@dogperson - thank you for shedding light on the renter/rentee aspect. I always wondered how landlords wouldn't notice/get suspicious.

Couple of things: ABC did not record license to purchase back then like they do now. There would be no record of her name attached to the brandy. There may be a purchase record but it was over 10 years ago, I doubt anyone has that.

Also, I was thinking, maybe she DIDN'T know the area because, if she did in fact go to the places I pointed out on the map, they're all lumped pretty closely together. Or maybe it was an impulse and convenient, IDK.

As carefully as the rest of the suicide was planned, it's entirely possible she cleared her lease, etc. before she went to the cemetery.

I have wondered whether the cemetery was a place she saw as she went to and from work -- from a bus window, perhaps.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 06:51 PM
I've emailed the NY State police and left a message for the head of the fairfax county cold case division. We shall see.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 07:44 PM
I've contacted Amy Kusaywa, too, via Facebook. I'll keep you all abreast of any developments.

astridxx
09-27-2012, 07:47 PM
Also, I've noticed Jane Doe was wearing matching pants/sweater.... And Judy was said to always wear matching pants/sweaters too..

carbuff
09-27-2012, 08:54 PM
Also, I've noticed Jane Doe was wearing matching pants/sweater.... And Judy was said to always wear matching pants/sweaters too..

Yeah, lots and lots of things match, don't they? It even makes sense that a woman who had abandoned her kids and grandkids would seek solace among the children.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 10:21 AM
Yeah, lots and lots of things match, don't they? It even makes sense that a woman who had abandoned her kids and grandkids would seek solace among the children.

See and that's why this is such a strong match. It says she started disappearing slowly and then just was gone one day. I don't believe her ex-bf murdered her. It would have been easy for her to come down here to northern VA and set up a new life -- Annandale is a very, very mixed community so she would have blended right in. I also don't think it was hard to set up fake SSNs back in the mid 90s (as far as Judy's tax returns and her never filing another one was concerned). She probably worked odd jobs around the DC area and no one ever questioned her. She may have quit her job before she killed herself -- and heck, she might have even been employed at a restaurant owned and operated by foreigners, therefore making the possibility of her being identified even slighter, etc etc

Her typed suicide note shows that she had a lot of problems in her life; Judy spiraled out of control when her husband died.

The only, and biggest thing that bothers me is her DNR bracelet. I think Judy's husband was a cop -- so why would he have one of those? It must have been purchased by and belonged to Annandale JD and her only.

Judy is our Annandale Jane Doe, and our Annandale Jane Doe is Judy. Now we just need someone to get finger prints, DNA and dental records to prove it. I'm like 110% sold on this match. I hope others are too -- and if not, I hope they point out problems with it.

dogperson
09-28-2012, 01:14 PM
Are there any religions which would prohibit resuscitation? I kept thinking of DNR orders in the case of terminal illness, but then I wondered if maybe her religion prohibits efforts to resuscitate under any circumstances. So you would wear the bracelet even though you weren't expecting to die soon in order to make your wishes known. Having DNR and penicillin allergy on the same bracelet is odd. If you are terminal and do not want any efforts made to save you, why list a drug allergy?
I can see the possibility of this being Judy, especially a few years older and weighing less. It appears Judy's ears are pierced in her photos and the UID is wearing clip-ons. Do we know if her ears were pierced also? Some women will still wear a nice pair of vintage clip-ons even if they have pierced ears, but I personally wouldn't as they are uncomfortable.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 01:39 PM
Do not resuscitate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I was curious as to what "No Code" stood for. Now I know.

I wish there was some way to research jewelry from the mid 90s and how readily available it was. I wonder where you could buy it back then... this may give us some insight.


"no code
Etymology: AS, na, not; L, caudex, book
a note written in the patient record and signed by a qualified, usually senior or attending physician instructing the staff of the institution not to attempt to resuscitate a particular patient in the event of cardiac or respiratory failure. This instruction is usually given only when a patient is so gravely ill that death is imminent and inevitable. Also used is DNR ("do not resuscitate)." See also code, def. 5." (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/no+code)

astridxx
09-28-2012, 01:40 PM
http://www.uwhealth.org/healthfacts/B_EXTRANET_HEALTH_INFORMATION-FlexMember-Show_Public_HFFY_1126649946755.html

"Who can have an Out of Hospital DNR bracelet?

By law, you can choose to wear a DNR bracelet if:
You are an adult (18 years or older).
You have a terminal disease.
You and your doctor decide that CPR would not work in your case.
You and your doctor decide that the pain and suffering of resuscitation/CPR would be greater than the benefits.

How do you get an Out of Hospital DNR bracelet?

Talk with your doctor, nurse or social worker. They will get you information you need to make the decision. You and your doctor will need to sign a form which allows the DNR order to take effect. You will then receive a bracelet which you must wear at all times. "

astridxx
09-28-2012, 01:46 PM
"7. HOW LONG IS A SPECIAL DNR ORDER VALID?
The order is valid for only one year after it is issued. If a patient still wants the order to continue after a year has passed the attending physician must issue a new one.
8. HOW WILL THE EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES KNOW IF I HAVE A SPECIAL DNR ORDER?
The EMS personnel are instructed to look for special Do Not Resuscitate orders in specific designated places such as the back of the patient's bedroom door, in the patient's wallet, on the refrigerator, and on the patient's bedside table.
Also, the EMS personnel will look to see if you are wearing a valid bracelet issued by your doctor. If the EMS personnel find a valid order or see that you are wearing a valid bracelet they will not attempt to revive you if your heart stops or you stop breathing.
However, if there is no order form or bracelet the EMS must start CPR in order to revive you."


"11. WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFORMATION ABOUT SPECIAL DNR ORDERS?
Since only physicians are authorized to issues special DNR orders, you should talk to your attending physician if you want more information or think you may need a special DNR order."

www.lsnv.org/_literature.../Do_Not_Resuscitate_Orders_-_English



Also see this for info on how to obtain a DNR bracelet: http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/OEMS/Files_page/DDNR/HowToOrderDDNRBracelets_Necklaces.pdf




". Fortunately, DNR identification jewelry can be obtained through the non-profit 45-year-old MedicAlert Foundation. Once you have filled out your DNR document, you send MedicAlert the last sheet of your DNR. For a small fee, you can join MedicAlert. Then they will inform you about the choice of necklace or bracelet that clearly states your wishes to Do Not Resuscitate. In some states, this jewelry and/or official papers (which you might not have on your person) are the ONLY methods honored by emergency medics. If such a notification is not present, you WILL be resuscitated - meaning you will be denied your paradise. "

http://near-death.com/experiences/suicide10.html

astridxx
09-28-2012, 01:54 PM
All this DNR info seems to me that she obtained that bracelet from someone else or was involved in the medical field. I don't think you could just walk into a store in the 90s and buy a DNR/NC/NP bracelet.


OK apparently during the 90s you could get allergy bracelets but most states' EMS workers for the most part could only honor valid/authorized DNR bracelets and all of them should have come with personal info. I think I'll research state DNR laws from the mid 90s -- that could be our key as to which state she was from.. you know, if she lived in a state where DNR bracelets could be worn and honored WITHOUT a legal contract.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 06:22 PM
I'm literally the only person who posts in this thread -_-; sorry guys...

Anyway, a friend over on another site suggested maybe this woman was a lit teacher. The death note she typed up is said, by my friend, to be similar to a Wordsworth poem entitled "INTIMATIONS OF IMMORTALITY FROM RECOLLECTIONS OF EARLY CHILDHOOD". (http://www.bartleby.com/145/ww331.html)


Also, my friend suggested our JD may have referred to the book "Let Me Die Before I Wake" (Let Me Die Before I Wake: Hemlock's Book of Self-Deliverance for the Dying: Derek Humphry: 9780960603008: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Xxqc3mv0L.@@AMEPARAM@@41Xxqc3mv0L)

Just two interesting suggestions :)

Final Exit: The Practicalities of Self-Deliverance and Assisted Suicide for the Dying,3rd Edition: Derek Humphry: 9780385336536: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NS0KES03L.@@AMEPARAM@@51NS0KES03L

Another one of the authors works originally written in 1992, more of a how to manual about how to kill yourself. Parallels a lot of the stuff our JD did (bag over head, drugs, "by my own hand," leave money for funerary costs)

Snufamonbobball
09-28-2012, 07:01 PM
I own an old copy of Final Exit and she did follow many of the "suggestions" in the book. I've always thought she'd read it and "used" it.

ThePhantom
09-28-2012, 07:03 PM
I've always cared about this lady too. She must've felt like life had no meaning or purpose for her anymore. But surely there is someone who misses her, or could at least recognize her. I kind of feel she wasn't from the area, just because her picture was in the local media for a while, and I would think *someone* would have seen it -- a cashier at the grocery store, a hair dresser, a dry cleaner employee, a restaurant worker, a dept. store employee, a neighbor/co worker/bus driver/manicurist/doctor/lawyer/repair person.....but then, I think about "Mall Man" who went unidentified for years -- and his family members who lived in the next county over never saw his picture in the paper...

I feel like this lady knew she would not be recognized in that cemetary in Annandale, VA. She wanted to just disappear, possibly thinking it wouldn't matter to anyone. Oh how I hope she was wrong.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 08:16 PM
Yeah see that's the thing -- this woman's story comes and goes every 5 years, and it's only covered on the news... for a couple minutes (ie; easily missed)...

I'd be interested to see excerpts from the Final Exit that she may have modeled her suicide off of. I'd get a copy but it could be a trigger for me.

It would be good to know if it was sold in all stores, in book stores, in specific regions of the US, if it was banned anywhere, etc.

carbuff
09-28-2012, 09:11 PM
It might have been banned in a couple of places, but it was generally available. Also, the information in it was widely discussed and it was pretty easy to find out about what it said without directly reading the book.

It would be interesting to know whether the DNR braclelet is discussed in the book.

Snufamonbobball
09-28-2012, 09:28 PM
I brushed off my copy of Final Exit, and it was as I remembered. She seems to have followed the steps outlined very closely.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 09:32 PM
I brushed off my copy of Final Exit, and it was as I remembered. She seems to have followed the steps outlined very closely.

Eep! Just when it comes to the pills, brandy and bag? Or does it mention a cemetery? Printed note? Comedy tapes? No receipts? DNR bracelets?

Snufamonbobball
09-28-2012, 09:36 PM
It might have been banned in a couple of places, but it was generally available. Also, the information in it was widely discussed and it was pretty easy to find out about what it said without directly reading the book.

It would be interesting to know whether the DNR braclelet is discussed in the book.

My copy is from 1991, I didn't see anything regarding DNR braclets, but it does mention having a living will with you at the time. There is a chapter devoted to the use of a bag. I don't want to go into any specifics, but she followed the steps in the book closely.
There is a "sample" note which mentions something like a DNR. It goes something like this: If you find me and I'm still breathing, I forbid anyone to attempt to revive me. I'll sue you if you do.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 09:37 PM
Jeez just seeing a diagram of the suicide bag brought tears to my eyes.. :(


Now I'm beginning to think maybe JG isn't our JD.

I wonder if they list the brand of watch she was wearing... Maybe we could single out the region by what retailers sold that specific brand?

Snufamonbobball
09-28-2012, 09:54 PM
Jeez just seeing a diagram of the suicide bag brought tears to my eyes.. :(


Now I'm beginning to think maybe JG isn't our JD.

I wonder if they list the brand of watch she was wearing... Maybe we could single out the region by what retailers sold that specific brand?

I believe it was a Guess watch.

astridxx
09-28-2012, 10:01 PM
I believe it was a Guess watch.

Well forget that theory. I guess all we can do is keep looking for matches with the MPs.

astridxx
09-29-2012, 07:23 PM
I think this has been mentioned before but there's a lot of really good pics of the evidence found over on Porchlight.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=24550

And it was also stated on Porchlight that the Belgian woman (Haare?) was ruled out thanks to DNA (I never really saw the comparison anyway)

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=7074&st=0&

the link above is a link to pix (including ones not seen on any DOE website -- the user was able to get pix of the Jooza bottle, a scarf, the tape player, the med alert necklace)

carbuff
09-29-2012, 08:15 PM
Interesting, I hadn't heard about the small "fanny pack" before.

The REI backpack is almost certainly mail order; it's the kind of backpack popular among teens as a book bag.

That's not the kind of medical alert bracelet I was picturing.

astridxx
09-29-2012, 09:25 PM
As far as the backpack goes... If I remember correctly there was an outdoors store (if not an REI itself) in Fairfax near Vienna back in the early 90s. I remember taking a trip there with my dad when I was 8 or 9 (so 1991 or 92) and being all amazed at all the hiking/camping stuff. Anyway my point is, she may have obtained it at that store, which was only about 15-20 minutes away (driving) from PV. Seeing as how it was beat up she may have got it in the early nineties which means she may be from or familiar with this area. But that's why it's so baffling to me -- if she was familiar why doesn't anyone know her???

I'm going to follow up with the lieutenant who oversees the cold case dept in FFx co next week (he gets back Tuesday). When I spoke to the operators at the station they said they had never heard of the case. Maybe it would be easy for a familiar to overlook this, you know?

astridxx
09-29-2012, 09:27 PM
Oh and there is a Disney store at Tyson's (where there is a Nordstrom too). Pretty much always has been if I remember correctly. It's possible she picked it up with the clothes. Despite the tape and pin it looks new.

carbuff
09-29-2012, 10:10 PM
As far as the backpack goes... If I remember correctly there was an outdoors store (if not an REI itself) in Fairfax near Vienna back in the early 90s. I remember taking a trip there with my dad when I was 8 or 9 (so 1991 or 92) and being all amazed at all the hiking/camping stuff. Anyway my point is, she may have obtained it at that store, which was only about 15-20 minutes away (driving) from PV. Seeing as how it was beat up she may have got it in the early nineties which means she may be from or familiar with this area. But that's why it's so baffling to me -- if she was familiar why doesn't anyone know her???

I'm going to follow up with the lieutenant who oversees the cold case dept in FFx co next week (he gets back Tuesday). When I spoke to the operators at the station they said they had never heard of the case. Maybe it would be easy for a familiar to overlook this, you know?

You can't get REI brand stuff anywhere but REI, but there is an REI store in Fairfax, so it could be. It's not a new backpack, though, so there's no reason to assume she bought it locally.

There are hundreds of reasons why people don't recognize an unidentified person. With somebody who committed suicide in a cemetery, it's even possible her family DID recognize her and said to themselves, "Well, if that's the way she feels, we'll just leave her there" or "We can't admit we had a suicide in OUR family." Or, "It can't be Aunt Jane. She moved to Florida, didn't she?" Even if they realize nobody's heard from Aunt Jane in the last ten years, they'll be looking for her in Florida.

I mean, pictures of missing people is just not something most people run into every day. Even when the local newspaper does an update article, if that's the day you happen to be too busy to read the paper, you'll miss it. Even if you're looking, if it's a news outlet that's not near your area, you're liable to miss it.

maureen
09-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I think she is an excellent match for Judith Geurin- her daughter Amy is on facebook with a pic of her missing Mom - I wonder if she has seen this UID

Julessleuther
09-30-2012, 12:07 AM
Sodus is actually between Rochester and Syracuse. I remember this case, and being a former local, I know that there was fairly compelling evidence that her boyfriend (?) was involved. http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Wanted_and_Missing/Missing/view.cfm?ID=32528dc2-ba47-45d9-ad3e-4d1c7214594d Judith Guerin

http://i49.tinypic.com/ao15bs.jpg

Basic Information
Race: White
Sex: Female
DOB: October 6, 1945
Height: 5' 2"
Weight: 180 pounds
Eyes: Hazel
Hair: Blonde



Jane Doe
Estimated age Adult - Pre 70
Minimum age 50 years
Maximum age 70 years
Race White
Ethnicity
Sex Female
Weight (pounds) 157, Measured
Height (inches) 60, Measured (5'0")




It wouldn't work with my theory though -- the woman missing from NY lived up near Buffalo... and the only Pleasant Valley, NY is near NYC.

astridxx
09-30-2012, 08:31 AM
I think she is an excellent match for Judith Geurin- her daughter Amy is on facebook with a pic of her missing Mom - I wonder if she has seen this UID


I have sent her a FB message, yes. No response yet -- I sent it probably last Thursday or Friday.

astridxx
09-30-2012, 08:33 AM
http://i49.tinypic.com/9jnpmx.jpg

The circle at the top was the outdoors store (possibly an REI) and the one at the bottom is PVMG.

I know there's an REI now in a DIFFERENT location in Fairfax -- but in the 90s I'm pretty sure it was located there where that circle is on the map.

astridxx
09-30-2012, 08:59 AM
Sodus is actually between Rochester and Syracuse. I remember this case, and being a former local, I know that there was fairly compelling evidence that her boyfriend (?) was involved.

I'd be interested to see the evidence against him. Of course I'm local to our PVMG JD so I know nothing about Judy's story other than what I've read. Would you share some things you learned about Judy's story when you lived there?

I'll keep checking the missing networks. And yes, now I'm struggling with "do we keep trying or do we keep her anonymous like she wanted?" :(

astridxx
09-30-2012, 09:28 AM
Ok Judy's husband died of a heart attack and she received $250k worth of his pension. She disappeared gradually from life. People say Pucci beat her (which is maybe why she disappeared -- to escape him). Also, at some point she registered to go to school to become a respiratory therapist....

All this according to NY Times article from 2007. I overlooked alot of that when I first read the article.

The husbands pension explains the clothes. The fact that her daughter Amy gained custody of her three younger brothers may explain the baby land aspect of the cemetery. The DNR/No Code bracelet may be explained by the nursing classes (she must have had access or maybe it was her husbands).

carbuff
09-30-2012, 10:38 AM
Ok Judy's husband died of a heart attack and she received $250k worth of his pension. She disappeared gradually from life. People say Pucci beat her (which is maybe why she disappeared -- to escape him). Also, at some point she registered to go to school to become a respiratory therapist....

All this according to NY Times article from 2007. I overlooked alot of that when I first read the article.

The husbands pension explains the clothes. The fact that her daughter Amy gained custody of her three younger brothers may explain the baby land aspect of the cemetery. The DNR/No Code bracelet may be explained by the nursing classes (she must have had access or maybe it was her husbands).

Besides the abusive relationship, the article also mentions a drinking problem and says she had gone through all that money.


There's nothing about a bracelet that says DNR that implies a nurse or requires particular acccess. Anybody can have one; I've seen cash-register displays at drugstores with the more common alerts including DNR (and the porchlight photo of the UID's bracelet looks very much like them.) If you just grab a bracelet off the rack and don't do the accompanying paperwork, it's anybody's guess whether it will be honored; at the time, laws were inconsistent and interpretation mostly rested with the emergency room people. But if she did the paperwork, that would have led back to her identity, so it wouldn't have been an option for her.

astridxx
09-30-2012, 12:58 PM
Okay I wrote REI customer service who said there was a location in Bailey's Crossroads, VA that opened in 1990.

http://i50.tinypic.com/30931fo.jpg

It's really a crap shoot as to whether or not she was familiar with the area. I mean, ANYONE can find these stores and Tyson's... ugh, such a mystery.

The thing with her husband's pension -- maybe she bought all that nice stuff BEFORE she blew it all out

carbuff
09-30-2012, 01:03 PM
Okay I wrote REI customer service who said there was a location in Bailey's Crossroads, VA that opened in 1990.

http://i50.tinypic.com/30931fo.jpg

It's really a crap shoot as to whether or not she was familiar with the area. I mean, ANYONE can find these stores and Tyson's... ugh, such a mystery.

The thing with her husband's pension -- maybe she bought all that nice stuff BEFORE she blew it all out

Entirely possible. It sounds like she had a comfortable happy life up until he died.

I'm also thinking that, you know, alcoholism, on a downhill slide, but manages to pull herself out of the abusive relationship and maybe pull herself together for a year or two, but then starts to slide again, maybe loses her job, gets depressed because she's made such a mess of her life, and goes out and spends her last money on nice clothes to die in.

Makes me want to cry thinking it might have been like that for her...