Dan Abrams - Don't Blame the Victim

[tipper]

Usually I agree with Dan Abrams but I get the feeling he's setting up a straw man in this editorial.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6308419/

Don't blame the victim (Dan Abrams)

Many people have been writing in effectively blaming Imette St. Guillen for her own murder. Imette was out drinking until 4:00 a.m. in New York City the night—about a week ago. She was abducted and killed and so it seems many believe that she has no one to blame but herself for being brutally raped and killed. I just read a number of e-mails to that effect.

As I said last night, I just will not let it go unanswered. I was stunned how many people wrote in saying I'm not blaming the victim, but what was she doing out that late or I'm not blaming the victim, but why is a single woman out drinking so much? Well I hate to break the news to you but you are blaming the victim. You're only asking the question to suggest she could have, maybe should have prevented her own murder.

That's despicable. There's only one person to blame and that is the brutal killer. If you want to use this case to provide a morality lesson in your own home, fine, tell your kids what can happen to them if they're not careful, great. But to suggest that this lovely young woman somehow brought this on herself is unacceptable. Was it the smartest decision to let her friend go home without her? No.

In retrospect, should she gone on to a second bar alone? No. But should she or anyone else have expected that she might likely be raped, mutilated and suffocated, her head wrapped in duct tape, her naked body dumped on the side of the highway if she did? Absolutely not.

Thousands of women do it every day in this country, many of them in New York, and it does not get them killed. I'm sure some of you believe that young women should never be drinking at bars late at night no matter you know where they are.

Others probably think young women shouldn't be drinking at all. Fine. You're welcome to those opinions. But it's just downright insulting to this family for you to provide a morality lecture on how Imette could have saved her own life. Blaming the victim, particularly female victims, has become an all too common practice in this country and I for one don't intend to sit on the sidelines and watch it happen to Imette or to anyone else.

[…]

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[concernedperson]

I totally agree. And if you younger gals want to wear short skirts go for it. This is not a crime. Never blame the victim for someone else's urges. Psychopaths are not normal and their fantasies are their own. We can't protect ourselves from every known human phenomenom. We have to live our lives.

[tipper]

Is this blaming the victim?

"The most basic bit of advice given to women who have to walk alone at night is, “Look alert. Be aware of your surroundings and walk briskly. You will be safer if you know where you are going, and if anyone who observes you senses that.”

Had the man who approached these young women divined somehow that he had come upon his victim at a time when they were particularly vulnerable, when they were not thinking as clearly as they usually did? It would almost seem so. The stalking predatory animal cuts the weakest from the pack and then kills at his leisure."

[Details]

Usually I agree with Dan Abrams but I get the feeling he's setting up a straw man in this editorial.

...I don't think so - I've seen exactly the type of behavior he's talking about in so, so many cases. And it's always directed towards women - anything other than perfect nunlike modesty, celibacy and behavior is mentioned, with an unpleasant scent of 'she kinda deserved it'.

It's all over the place, on many forums I've been to, many news articles - not even opinion articles, letters to the editor, etc. - the attitudes towards Brenda VanDam (she played with sex, she must have been responsible for her daughters death), the resistance towards any idea that Natallee Holloway was partying and drinking, and a million other rapes and murders like this one. Not that long ago, "she was asking for it" was an acceptable defense. The attitudes around that don't go away this quickly.

[PonderingThings]

I guess the woman who was raped by the fake taxi cab driver shouldn't have taken a taxi as that's what made her vulnerable. :confused:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/doh.gif But wait a moment... she shouldn't walk down the street alone....

I guess the only solution is to have woman escorted everywhere, by men, or locked up behind closed doors because some "people" (not just men) can't control themselves? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/bang.gif Mmmm what about the predators that are in the family???? Husbands, boyfriends, neighbors.... :confused:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/hand.gif is what I have to say to that!

[Details]

So many things women aren't supposed to do that are considered normal and unremarkable when done by men....

[LvsAMystry]

I completely agree with Dan Abrams. I would've been surprised by any opinion otherwise from him. In fact, I almost fainted seeing the title of this thread -- I took it literally that Dan Abrams is blaming the victim. Glad to see that isn't the case.

[tipper]

I don't think so - I've seen exactly the type of behavior he's talking about in so, so many cases. And it's always directed towards women - anything other than perfect nunlike modesty, celibacy and behavior is mentioned, with an unpleasant scent of 'she kinda deserved it'.

It's all over the place, on many forums I've been to, many news articles - not even opinion articles, letters to the editor, etc. - the attitudes towards Brenda VanDam (she played with sex, she must have been responsible for her daughters death), the resistance towards any idea that Natallee Holloway was partying and drinking, and a million other rapes and murders like this one. Not that long ago, "she was asking for it" was an acceptable defense. The attitudes around that don't go away this quickly.I expect he has received letters from some real venomous nut cases. I remember the days of "she was asking for it" and in a perfect world young girls (and boys) would be able to walk stark naked and remain safe. But we don't live in that world. So how does one reconcile the standard safety advice given to young women with with her choices. Abrams said: Was it the smartest decision to let her friend go home without her? No. In retrospect, should she gone on to a second bar alone? No. So how is it blaming the victim to say she didn't make the best decisions that night?

For example - My brother was killed in a motorcycle accident. He was driving without a helmet or a headlight and he ran a red light. A nurse on her way to work hit him and broke his neck. He died within minutes. I don't think less of him or "blame" him, but I know the choices he made that night contributed to his death. I have on occasion used him as an example to my kids how a bit of thoughtless behavior can end up costing or changing your life forever.

[tipper]

I completely agree with Dan Abrams. I would've been surprised by any opinion otherwise from him. In fact, I almost fainted seeing the title of this thread -- I took it literally that Dan Abrams is blaming the victim. Glad to see that isn't the case. You're right - the title did give that impression. I've changed it.

[Details]

I expect he has received letters from some real venomous nut cases. I remember the days of "she was asking for it" and in a perfect world young girls (and boys) would be able to walk stark naked and remain safe. But we don't live in that world. So how does one reconcile the standard safety advice given to young women with with her choices. Abrams said: Was it the smartest decision to let her friend go home without her? No. In retrospect, should she gone on to a second bar alone? No. So how is it blaming the victim to say she didn't make the best decisions that night?

For example - My brother was killed in a motorcycle accident. He was driving without a helmet or a headlight and he ran a red light. A nurse on her way to work hit him and broke his neck. He died within minutes. I don't think less of him or "blame" him, but I know the choices he made that night contributed to his death. I have on occasion used him as an example to my kids how a bit of thoughtless behavior can end up costing or changing your life forever.I'm sorry for you, and your brother - but that's a lot different than going out to a bar, or wearing a short skirt, making less than smart, but more than legal and reasonable decisions.

When you blame the victim, you say that these places are not somewhere you should go, it's your own fault if something happens. Odd that you never hear it about that for a guy who is attacked by, for instance, Dahlmer, and even less so for non-sexual items -a guy who goes to a bad part of town (for a party, or for a job) and robbed and murdered - is he to blame as well? You won't hear that, people will shout down suggestions that he was out of his neighborhood and shouldn't go there. Going to a bar, having a drink, wearing whatever clothing is going to make some rapist nutcase decide you are flirting with him - I think it's wrong to say that those are bad actions, that you are just asking for it, and you should know and accept that you take your life into your hands when you do that. It's accepting some places as the property of criminals - not something I want to do.

[txsvicki]

Wasn't it said that Imette walked to the second bar or at least was seen leaving the Pioneer with another woman? Supposedly there are lots of people walking bar to bar on those streets and Imette wouldn't have been a lone woman walking late in the night down a deserted street. Imette was going to leave the bar and get a cab home. She wasn't putting herself into much danger at all. Who would think about getting attacked and abducted by an employee of a business or while trying to leave a business before even getting out the door. The freak that got her was posing as LE and didn't even live in NYC. He's the one that shouldn't have been out on the streets that night. No women were safe from him.

[docwho3]

. . .When you blame the victim, you say that these places are not somewhere you should go, it's your own fault if something happens. . .That is a misdirection to try to turn common sense into a blame game.
I know the thread this topic started in and I saw the flame wars that sprang from it being introduced and saw that the moderators had to edit some posts. Yes there are some places one should not go at certain times because it is not a perfect world. Yes you can go anywhere that its legal to go but you take risks in doing so. I am a guy but I would not go to a bar alone and certainly not in the wee hours of the morning because that makes me have higher risk of becoming a victem. And if I was a female you would not even catch me going to a Walmart alone at 4 am much less a bar. If you want to go places alone at such late times like that its your choice and if you get murdered I will cheer them on when they convict the killer but I will also post saying that you took an unnecessary risk, much like walking out across a busy road and expecting all the drivers to do the right thing and avoid hitting you.

[txsvicki]

When I was underage I frequently went to one of the biggest dives on the outskirts of town all alone and was very safe but I've been a victim at a doctor's office! It was unbelievable. Women and children are really not safe anywhere at all. We have to be on guard everywhere from church in the daylight to bars late at night. Predators are everywhere and on the prowl for victims. Now, I am afraid of my own shadow and would be afraid to even set foot in a bar or go out at night alone or to even walk alone in a neighborhood during the day.

[docwho3]

. . .But to suggest that this lovely young woman somehow brought this on herself is unacceptable. Was it the smartest decision to let her friend go home without her? No.

In retrospect, should she gone on to a second bar alone? No. But should she or anyone else have expected that she might likely be raped, mutilated and suffocated, her head wrapped in duct tape, her naked body dumped on the side of the highway if she did? . . . The simple and unadorned truthful answer is "yes". And yet this is not a blame game. It is just the plain unvarnished, unpleasant truth of the way the world is. Anytime you place yourself alone with a few strangers while you are under the influence of alcohol and you arrived alone and you are out of sight of police or security cameras your risks of becoming a victem go up. I am a guy and I try to avoid such situations.

I saw the Abrams interview and I think he was just milking an awful tragedy to make ratings for his show by bringing this misdirection topic into play.

Long ago people used the she-asked-for-it defense in court to try to sway a jury in rape cases but that was only a courtroom tactic. In the current situation no sensible person wants to try to dirty the victem by saying she "asked" for anything and she ceratinly did not "deserve" what happened to her but that does not mean she did not decide to gamble her life and safety in taking certain risks and unfortunately for her she lost the gamble. That may seem unacceptable to Dan Abrams and to others as well but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world . . . . and that's the way it is. It also does not excuse the killer one little tiny bit and when a jury convicts the killer I will cheer them on.

[cappuccina]

No one in their right mind would ever say that anyone who has been brutally murdered the way Imette was "deserves their fate"....However, I think it is unconscienable to ignore the FACT that this young woman was in a situation THAT PUT HER AT A HIGHER PROBABILITY OF BEING IN DANGER ,for a variety of reasons...

It is paternalistic and absurd to continue not face the facts that bad things can happen to women and men when they PUT THEMSELVES IN POSITIONS WHERE THE PROBABILITY IS, IN FACT HIGHER, that something bad can happen...

Campus police and other LE have lectured young people for years, NOT just women, BTW to:

1. Not go out or return home alone or with a stranger(s).

2. Not to lose control through the use of alcohol or drugs, but if you plan to, be with a trusted friend who will take you home or to their home.

3. Not to be out alone at night.

4. Not to give out personal information to strangers.

5. If you do insist on going home with someone you have never met, do not do it while drunk, and give the person's name and phone number to the friend who you came with.

6. Not to put yourself in a position of vulnerability, e.g., going to an area where no one can hear/see you with someone you have never met.

All of this is holds especially true when you are in an urban environment you are unfamiliar with...NYC, for example...

I am familiar with the parts of NYC they are referencing....I've been out at night in various parts of NYC, many times, WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE, thank you very much...(East New York where she was found, BTW is one of the most ****ing dangerous places on the planet, and was even thirty years ago...)...She should not have chosen to stay out alone in SoHo, either...

Also, excuse me, but....why would a smart young woman believe a mofo bouncer who told her he was a federal agent? The man is a bar bouncer covered with prison tattoos...No way you'd get me to believe this when I was in my twenties...

What happened to Imette is unspeakeable...unfortunately, she chose to put herself at higher risk...

For more information on exacly what I am talking about, see:

http://www.securityoncampus.org/students/tips.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10386635/
http://dede.essortment.com/personalsafety_rkbl.htm

From the MSNBC site - snippet:

"Take your time in getting to know your companion or “date.” Don't spend time alone with someone who makes her feel uneasy or uncomfortable. This means following your instincts and removing herself from situations that you don't feel good about.

Stay with a group of people. Avoid risky areas, such as deserted areas.

Avoid excessive alcohol. According to the Journal of Studies on Alcohol, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 have been victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape. (DUH! My comment, added...)

Be alert for possible use of “date rape drugs” such as Rohypnol, which is illegal in the United States. Someone can slip it into a drink. It causes drowsiness, a loss of coordination, dizziness and memory loss. Never take drinks from other people and don’t leave your drink unattended.

Tell someone you trust your date’s name, destination and planned time of return.

Take money for a phone call and taxi fare with you."

Need I say more?


And please do not tell me that "anything can happen aywhere"...I'll agree with you! Rememebr, what I am talking about is NOT blaming the victim, but rather TEACHING people to NOT put themselves in positons WHERE THEY ARE, IN FACT, AT HIGHTER RISK...NOW NEEDS TO GET OFF THEIR AZZEZ, AND INSTEAD OF CROWING ABOUT HOW WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRESS/WALK/GO OUT ANYWHERE, SHOULD BE PUTTING THEIR RESOURCES TO EDUCATING WOMEN ABOUT HOW TO HAVE SELF-ESTEEM AND MAKE SMART CHOICES. For God's sake we all agree that in utopia, we could all walk anywhere at three a.m., but that ain't the reality...

IT'S A PROBABILITY AND PERSONAL SAFETY THANG, Y'ALL...

__________________
"Don't make me get my flying monkeys!"

[Hbgchick]

I expect he has received letters from some real venomous nut cases. I remember the days of "she was asking for it" and in a perfect world young girls (and boys) would be able to walk stark naked and remain safe. But we don't live in that world. So how does one reconcile the standard safety advice given to young women with with her choices. Abrams said: Was it the smartest decision to let her friend go home without her? No. In retrospect, should she gone on to a second bar alone? No. So how is it blaming the victim to say she didn't make the best decisions that night?

For example - My brother was killed in a motorcycle accident. He was driving without a helmet or a headlight and he ran a red light. A nurse on her way to work hit him and broke his neck. He died within minutes. I don't think less of him or "blame" him, but I know the choices he made that night contributed to his death. I have on occasion used him as an example to my kids how a bit of thoughtless behavior can end up costing or changing your life forever.
Bravo.

[Hbgchick]

That is a misdirection to try to turn common sense into a blame game.
I know the thread this topic started in and I saw the flame wars that sprang from it being introduced and saw that the moderators had to edit some posts. Yes there are some places one should not go at certain times because it is not a perfect world. Yes you can go anywhere that its legal to go but you take risks in doing so. I am a guy but I would not go to a bar alone and certainly not in the wee hours of the morning because that makes me have higher risk of becoming a victem. And if I was a female you would not even catch me going to a Walmart alone at 4 am much less a bar. If you want to go places alone at such late times like that its your choice and if you get murdered I will cheer them on when they convict the killer but I will also post saying that you took an unnecessary risk, much like walking out across a busy road and expecting all the drivers to do the right thing and avoid hitting you.
And bravo to you, too.

I'm not blaming the victim either, nobody deserves what was done to Imette. But, as with the earlier poster's brother (God bless for posting that, btw) not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, if you're alone and drunk in a not-so-nice part of town, you have not made a safe choice. Should some upstanding citizen tried to help her home, call a cab, whatever? Sure, that'd be great. Unfortunately she ran into an entirely different sort.

I'm also not saying brutal rapists and murderers ONLY appear in areas like this, they're walking among us every day. This is why I protect myself, I don't go places alone at night or that I'm not familiar with. Am I still at risk? Sure, we all are. But it's prudent to exercise caution.

[Hbgchick]

No one in their right mind would ever say that anyone who has been brutally murdered the way Imette was "deserves their fate"....However, I think it is unconscienable to ignore the FACT that this young woman was in a situation THAT PUT HER AT A HIGHER PROBABILITY OF BEING IN DANGER ,for a variety of reasons...

It is paternalistic and absurd to continue not face the facts that bad things can happen to women and men when they PUT THEMSELVES IN POSITIONS WHERE THE PROBABILITY IS, IN FACT HIGHER, that something bad can happen...

Campus police and other LE have lectured young people for years, NOT just women, BTW to:

1. Not go out or return home alone or with a stranger(s).

2. Not to lose control through the use of alcohol or drugs, but if you plan to, be with a trusted friend who will take you home or to their home.

3. Not to be out alone at night.

4. Not to give out personal information to strangers.

5. If you do insist on going home with someone you have never met, do not do it while drunk, and give the person's name and phone number to the friend who you came with.

6. Not to put yourself in a position of vulnerability, e.g., going to an area where no one can hear/see you with someone you have never met.

All of this is holds especially true when you are in an urban environment you are unfamiliar with...NYC, for example...

I am familiar with the parts of NYC they are referencing....I've been out at night in various parts of NYC, many times, WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE, thank you very much...(East New York where she was found, BTW is one of the most ****ing dangerous places on the planet, and was even thirty years ago...)...She should not have chosen to stay out alone in SoHo, either...

Also, excuse me, but....why would a smart young woman believe a mofo bouncer who told her he was a federal agent? The man is a bar bouncer covered with prison tattoos...No way you'd get me to believe this when I was in my twenties...

What happened to Imette is unspeakeable...unfortunately, she chose to put herself at higher risk...

For more information on exacly what I am talking about, see:

http://www.securityoncampus.org/students/tips.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10386635/
http://dede.essortment.com/personalsafety_rkbl.htm

From the MSNBC site - snippet:

"Take your time in getting to know your companion or “date.” Don't spend time alone with someone who makes her feel uneasy or uncomfortable. This means following your instincts and removing herself from situations that you don't feel good about.

Stay with a group of people. Avoid risky areas, such as deserted areas.

Avoid excessive alcohol. According to the Journal of Studies on Alcohol, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 have been victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape. (DUH! My comment, added...)

Be alert for possible use of “date rape drugs” such as Rohypnol, which is illegal in the United States. Someone can slip it into a drink. It causes drowsiness, a loss of coordination, dizziness and memory loss. Never take drinks from other people and don’t leave your drink unattended.

Tell someone you trust your date’s name, destination and planned time of return.

Take money for a phone call and taxi fare with you."

Need I say more?


And please do not tell me that "anything can happen aywhere"...I'll agree with you! Rememebr, what I am talking about is NOT blaming the victim, but rather TEACHING people to NOT put themselves in positons WHERE THEY ARE, IN FACT, AT HIGHTER RISK...NOW NEEDS TO GET OFF THEIR AZZEZ, AND INSTEAD OF CROWING ABOUT HOW WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRESS/WALK/GO OUT ANYWHERE, SHOULD BE PUTTING THEIR RESOURCES TO EDUCATING WOMEN ABOUT HOW TO HAVE SELF-ESTEEM AND MAKE SMART CHOICES. For God's sake we all agree that in utopia, we could all walk anywhere at three a.m., but that ain't the reality...

IT'S A PROBABILITY AND PERSONAL SAFETY THANG, Y'ALL...

__________________
"Don't make me get my flying monkeys!"
And TRIPLE Bravo. :clap: :clap:

[nanandjim]

It's so scary to think about all of the mistakes that I have made in life. I'm sure that they are far more than Imette. Who knows how close to rape or murder that I may have come in years past? I can well imagine that perhaps only one minor thing happened to save me on many occasions.

Unfortunately, that one minor thing didn't happen for Imette that night. I think about all of the "what if's" that could have changed her fate.

*What if she had gone home at the same time as her friend?
*What if she had met up with another friend that evening and shared a cab with him/her?
*What if Imette had left when the others had left the bar?
*What if Imette was the next-to-last person to leave the bar, instead of being the last person to leave?
*What if a cab had been at the curb, waiting for a fare?

There are so many things that could have happened, and we never would have known how close a call it could have been for Imette. Unfortunately, none of them happened. May God be with Imette and may she rest in peace.

We all need to be vigilant and be aware of our surroundings. We just never know how close we may be to danger at any given point in time.

[txsvicki]

Poor Imette. She must have thought that she was in a really trendy area frequented by yuppies in a town where people walk at all hours of the night with constant access to cabs. People need to remember also that many of the people who might own places or do the work are not high class people like the patrons. Some employees might have certain jobs because that's all they can get due to a prison record. The ex con probably even had access to credit card receipts and women's names. He could have started looking them up. In my opinion now that I'm older, even going to a bar or drinking alcohol is putting a person at risk for many things to happen and not good for anyone.

[nanandjim]

...People need to remember also that many of the people who might own places or do the work are not high class people like the patrons. Some employees might have certain jobs because that's all they can get...
This is such a good point! We are members of our local country club, where almost all of the members are wealthy. However, the people who work there are minimum-wage employees who would most likely be working elsewhere for more money if they could be. It is sometimes hard to remember this fact.

[Masterj]

Poor Imette. She must have thought that she was in a really trendy area frequented by yuppies in a town where people walk at all hours of the night with constant access to cabs. People need to remember also that many of the people who might own places or do the work are not high class people like the patrons. Some employees might have certain jobs because that's all they can get due to a prison record. The ex con probably even had access to credit card receipts and women's names. He could have started looking them up. In my opinion now that I'm older, even going to a bar or drinking alcohol is putting a person at risk for many things to happen and not good for anyone.
While cabs might not have been around that evening, she was in a fairly trendy bar frequented by many yuppies and young people around her age.

Your second statement "People need to remember..." concerns me. Someone who works in a restaurant or bar isn't necessarily low class. Just like patrons aren't necessarily "high class." I know you said many and not all, but I just wanted to point that out because of the implications. I was a bartender for several years and some of the patrons I encountered were far worse than any of my coworkers. Criminals can come from all walks of life as we have all seen especially in the cases featured on this forum.

As for the credit card receipts, most restaurants and bars only list the last four digits of your card number along with your name in some cases.

[mocity]

This case has really scared me. When I was younger I did some really stupid things and put myself in some bad situations. I just got lucky and didnt run into a monster like this. I am sure many of the posters on this board have put themselves into situations that weren't the safest. I think that unfortunately she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Masterj]

This case has really scared me. When I was younger I did some really stupid things and put myself in some bad situations. I just got lucky and didnt run into a monster like this. I am sure many of the posters on this board have put themselves into situations that weren't the safest. I think that unfortunately she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Same here. I find myself thinking often about Imette's friend who she was out with earlier and the pain she must be experiencing. I've been in her situation before with friends who were drunk and wouldn't listen to reason. In fact, after arguing several times with a friend and roommate in college about her drinking being out of hand, I woke up once to her bringing home 4 random strangers to continue the afterhours drinking at our place. That was the final straw for me as I did not want strange, drunken men in my house.

I understand that it is not a good idea to leave your friend along in a bar, but sometimes the friend just can't comprehend the danger when their judgement is impaired. The whole thing is heartbreaking.

[Jeana (DP)]

As for the credit card receipts, most restaurants and bars only list the last four digits of your card number along with your name in some cases.

I believe that's the law everywhere as recently changed.

[dark_shadows]

Wasn't it said that Imette walked to the second bar or at least was seen leaving the Pioneer with another woman?
Imette apparently left the bar alone.Her friend visiting from Boston apparently argued with Imette because Imette did not leave with her.It was time to stop drinking and go home.


Supposedly there are lots of people walking bar to bar on those streets and Imette wouldn't have been a lone woman walking late in the night down a deserted street. Imette was going to leave the bar and get a cab home. She wasn't putting herself into much danger at all.
If lots of people were walking down those streets at 3:30 am,it would not be labled as a deserted street with a lone person.

[marly56]

I totally agree. And if you younger gals want to wear short skirts go for it. This is not a crime. Never blame the victim for someone else's urges. Psychopaths are not normal and their fantasies are their own. We can't protect ourselves from every known human phenomenom. We have to live our lives.
i agree with you .a women is not'' asking for it'' because she wears a short skirt, just as a man is not asking to be robbed simply because he carries a wallet!

[concernedperson]

i agree with you .a women is not'' asking for it'' because she wears a short skirt, just as a man is not asking to be robbed simply because he carries a wallet!

I like that and I never thought of it that way as being conditioned for being female.We need to use that phrase more often.

[marly56]

That is a misdirection to try to turn common sense into a blame game.
I know the thread this topic started in and I saw the flame wars that sprang from it being introduced and saw that the moderators had to edit some posts. Yes there are some places one should not go at certain times because it is not a perfect world. Yes you can go anywhere that its legal to go but you take risks in doing so. I am a guy but I would not go to a bar alone and certainly not in the wee hours of the morning because that makes me have higher risk of becoming a victem. And if I was a female you would not even catch me going to a Walmart alone at 4 am much less a bar. If you want to go places alone at such late times like that its your choice and if you get murdered I will cheer them on when they convict the killer but I will also post saying that you took an unnecessary risk, much like walking out across a busy road and expecting all the drivers to do the right thing and avoid hitting you.
a very logical well thoughtout post [good CRITICAL thinking]... i would like to add my own thoughts here. like it or not... men OWN the streets especially after dark. i know this INFURIATES women but this is a fact of life. this issue is NOT about equality it,s about REALITY. men are bigger and stonger.even your average good guy knows to look over his shoulder when he is out at night...so we can all sit around and debate this issue about women being free to do their ''own thing'' because they have ''equal rights'' but read the newspapers ''any newspaper'' see the THOUSANDS OF WOMEN RAPED AND/OR MURDERED..women WANT to be free and able to walk the streets safely at any hour but even though we have laws ''in place'' to protect women [and children] we must remember ...predators do NOT abide by the laws. a predator is like an animal and sees the streets as an open field.

[marly56]

No one in their right mind would ever say that anyone who has been brutally murdered the way Imette was "deserves their fate"....However, I think it is unconscienable to ignore the FACT that this young woman was in a situation THAT PUT HER AT A HIGHER PROBABILITY OF BEING IN DANGER ,for a variety of reasons...

It is paternalistic and absurd to continue not face the facts that bad things can happen to women and men when they PUT THEMSELVES IN POSITIONS WHERE THE PROBABILITY IS, IN FACT HIGHER, that something bad can happen...

Campus police and other LE have lectured young people for years, NOT just women, BTW to:

1. Not go out or return home alone or with a stranger(s).

2. Not to lose control through the use of alcohol or drugs, but if you plan to, be with a trusted friend who will take you home or to their home.

3. Not to be out alone at night.

4. Not to give out personal information to strangers.

5. If you do insist on going home with someone you have never met, do not do it while drunk, and give the person's name and phone number to the friend who you came with.

6. Not to put yourself in a position of vulnerability, e.g., going to an area where no one can hear/see you with someone you have never met.

All of this is holds especially true when you are in an urban environment you are unfamiliar with...NYC, for example...

I am familiar with the parts of NYC they are referencing....I've been out at night in various parts of NYC, many times, WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE, thank you very much...(East New York where she was found, BTW is one of the most ****ing dangerous places on the planet, and was even thirty years ago...)...She should not have chosen to stay out alone in SoHo, either...

Also, excuse me, but....why would a smart young woman believe a mofo bouncer who told her he was a federal agent? The man is a bar bouncer covered with prison tattoos...No way you'd get me to believe this when I was in my twenties...

What happened to Imette is unspeakeable...unfortunately, she chose to put herself at higher risk...

For more information on exacly what I am talking about, see:

http://www.securityoncampus.org/students/tips.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10386635/
http://dede.essortment.com/personalsafety_rkbl.htm

From the MSNBC site - snippet:

"Take your time in getting to know your companion or “date.” Don't spend time alone with someone who makes her feel uneasy or uncomfortable. This means following your instincts and removing herself from situations that you don't feel good about.

Stay with a group of people. Avoid risky areas, such as deserted areas.

Avoid excessive alcohol. According to the Journal of Studies on Alcohol, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 have been victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape. (DUH! My comment, added...)

Be alert for possible use of “date rape drugs” such as Rohypnol, which is illegal in the United States. Someone can slip it into a drink. It causes drowsiness, a loss of coordination, dizziness and memory loss. Never take drinks from other people and don’t leave your drink unattended.

Tell someone you trust your date’s name, destination and planned time of return.

Take money for a phone call and taxi fare with you."

Need I say more?


And please do not tell me that "anything can happen aywhere"...I'll agree with you! Rememebr, what I am talking about is NOT blaming the victim, but rather TEACHING people to NOT put themselves in positons WHERE THEY ARE, IN FACT, AT HIGHTER RISK...NOW NEEDS TO GET OFF THEIR AZZEZ, AND INSTEAD OF CROWING ABOUT HOW WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRESS/WALK/GO OUT ANYWHERE, SHOULD BE PUTTING THEIR RESOURCES TO EDUCATING WOMEN ABOUT HOW TO HAVE SELF-ESTEEM AND MAKE SMART CHOICES. For God's sake we all agree that in utopia, we could all walk anywhere at three a.m., but that ain't the reality...

IT'S A PROBABILITY AND PERSONAL SAFETY THANG, Y'ALL...

__________________
"Don't make me get my flying monkeys!"
you go girl!

[tipper]

a very logical well thoughtout post [good CRITICAL thinking]... i would like to add my own thoughts here. like it or not... men OWN the streets especially after dark. i know this INFURIATES women but this is a fact of life. this issue is NOT about equality it,s about REALITY. men are bigger and stonger.even your average good guy knows to look over his shoulder when he is out at night...so we can all sit around and debate this issue about women being free to do their ''own thing'' because they have ''equal rights'' but read the newspapers ''any newspaper'' see the THOUSANDS OF WOMEN RAPED AND/OR MURDERED..women WANT to be free and able to walk the streets safely at any hour but even though we have laws ''in place'' to protect women [and children] we must remember ...predators do NOT abide by the laws. a predator is like an animal and sees the streets as an open field.Yes! And how often must it be said - Rape is not about sex. Rape is about power. It doesn't matter what you are wearing. What matters is does the rapist think you are vulnerable.

[strach304]

The way it started out for Imette she used good judgment
was with a friend, then imo what happened next was a bad decision made by both girls. Even my daughter said she knows her friend that left her will have to live with this the rest of her life. They both had been drinking therefore weren't thinking on a normal capacity made one bad decision and Imette paid the ultimate price. The predator looks for opportunities like this and acts on them. Everyone makes a bad decision every now and then me included so any one of us at any time could become a victim. Alcohol makes a genius into a dummy.

[shellbee]

It's so scary to think about all of the mistakes that I have made in life. I'm sure that they are far more than Imette. Who knows how close to rape or murder that I may have come in years past? I can well imagine that perhaps only one minor thing happened to save me on many occasions.

Unfortunately, that one minor thing didn't happen for Imette that night. I think about all of the "what if's" that could have changed her fate.

*What if she had gone home at the same time as her friend?
*What if she had met up with another friend that evening and shared a cab with him/her?
*What if Imette had left when the others had left the bar?
*What if Imette was the next-to-last person to leave the bar, instead of being the last person to leave?
*What if a cab had been at the curb, waiting for a fare?

There are so many things that could have happened, and we never would have known how close a call it could have been for Imette. Unfortunately, none of them happened. May God be with Imette and may she rest in peace.

We all need to be vigilant and be aware of our surroundings. We just never know how close we may be to danger at any given point in time.Well said. There but for the grace of God, or just plain old dumb luck, goes any one of us.

[txsvicki]

Imette apparently left the bar alone.Her friend visiting from Boston apparently argued with Imette because Imette did not leave with her.It was time to stop drinking and go home.



If lots of people were walking down those streets at 3:30 am,it would not be labled as a deserted street with a lone person.



Did the witnesses at the other bar say that the streets were deserted or do you think I'm saying it? I know that I've read accounts of it being a busy area even late at night but not any accounts of that particular night, I think. Sorry to be confusing.

[txsvicki]

While cabs might not have been around that evening, she was in a fairly trendy bar frequented by many yuppies and young people around her age.

Your second statement "People need to remember..." concerns me. Someone who works in a restaurant or bar isn't necessarily low class. Just like patrons aren't necessarily "high class." I know you said many and not all, but I just wanted to point that out because of the implications. I was a bartender for several years and some of the patrons I encountered were far worse than any of my coworkers. Criminals can come from all walks of life as we have all seen especially in the cases featured on this forum.

As for the credit card receipts, most restaurants and bars only list the last four digits of your card number along with your name in some cases.

I was comparing the types of trendy places in Manhattan that would serve professionals, and like the other poster mentioned, maybe a country club. Patrons who think they are really in a swanky place might really be in a snake pit of ex cons, con men, or those who can't find better jobs due to a prison record. I guess women can not take for granted that they will be safe going into a small shop, bar, or any place near closing time or when not very busy due to being in danger of the employees. I saw one program on tv where a beautiful young mother took her baby to a little baby clothes shop in a good part of town. The young man working there, the owner's son, decided to kill them both.

[Bobbisangel]

I think most of us can look back and say "I'm really fortunate that nothing bad happened to me" because of risks that we took at one time or another.

I think what had Dan Abrams so upset was the personal attacks that were made towards Imette. I think it really got to him because what most people were saying without saying it out right was.... "she was drinking at a BAR...ALONE...at 4:00 A.M. and should have known better.....so it was HER OWN FAULT.

I think that most of us on this board are more than aware of how careful women have to be no matter where they are at any time of the day or night. We've seen how woman can disappear into thin air from their homes, on the street walking somewhere, in their vehicles, leaving for work in the morning, etc. It is a scary day and age and there are so many sick people out there just waiting to grab some gal and commit horrible acts. If we are of the dating age we have to be careful who we date and how we meet people that we date. We just have to be aware of our invironment at all times and try and stay as safe as possible.

Regardless, a crime victim never asks for it and should never be blamed for their own rape or murder. No one would choose for that to happen to them.

[tipper]

I think this says it...
http://wizbangblog.com/2006/03/10/the-third-law.php
The third law

The Imette St. Guillen case has yet to yield an arrest, but the argument over the circumstances of her horrific murder continues. It's the main topic of Boston's local talk shows, and one host in particular -- WRKO's John Depetro -- is catching most of the heat for saying that her actions were a partial, contributory factor in her death. The lines are being drawn, with one side saying that she did absolutely nothing wrong and to question her actions is a crass, immoral, vile way of blaming the victim, of providing her killer with some mitigating arguments.

It's a sad argument, because it is so unnecessary. There is absolutely NO conflict between the two positions.

The conflict arises because there are three sets of laws in play here, and one side is only addressing two of them.

Under the laws of man and the laws of morality, Imette Guillen was indeed utterly blameless and the onus for her death lies solely on her killer. He should be caught, tried, convicted, and punished to the fullest extent of the law. He needs to pay, and pay severely. I would have absolutely no problems with him being executed by lethal injection, electrocution, poison gas, decapitation, hanging, impaling, dismemberment, or any other way possible. And then I'd like his head mounted on a pike, with his genitalia stuffed in his mouth, as a warning to future generations that some things are just beyond the pale. I'd wave... sorry, got sidetracked into Babylon 5 there.

But there's a third set of laws at play here, one that the outraged parties simply don't address. And that's the unwritten law, the law of Nature, the law of the world, the law of the jungle. And that law says that if one is careless, if one takes chances, if one engages in risky behavior, sometimes you will pay the price. And sometimes that price will be the ultimate one.

[…]


Under legal and moral laws, that law is utterly unjustifiable. It is despicable. It is completely and utterly wrong -- but it is also completely and utterly immutable. There are no appeals.

To bring back my favorite, less emotionally charged example, I give you crosswalks. Under the legal and moral laws, the pedestrian has the absolute, immutable right of way. Cars MUST yield to a pedestrian. Under every legal and moral law, a pedestrian is completely in the right if they walk up to the curb, step into the crosswalk, and walk forthrightly and unhesitatingly across the street, without looking in either direction, fully confident in their legal and moral right to do so. And they will get away with it most of the time.

But if they do get hit, what will be the first question people ask? "Why didn't they look?"

That's not blaming the victim. The driver of the car was clearly going too fast for the circumstances, because the law demands that they pay close attention for them and be driving slow enough to stop in time. The pedestrian has no legal or moral responsibility at the crosswalk beyond staying within the markings.

But they have a duty to themselves to look out for themselves, because the legal and moral laws are not the only laws in play.

Those who ignore those laws will get away with it most of the time. But not every time. And I hope it's some comfort that they went to their graves having done absolutely nothing illegal or immoral or unethical.

[mbkstep]

I come out on this notion that she put herself at risk soundly on the side of the obvious......of course she did.

I also know.....young people do just that.

Blame? No, there's not anything she did that many of us haven't also done. We just didn't lose our lives.

Risk? Oh yeah...different matter altogether. She's just not at the age that I am, where risk management is honestly more appealing than fun!

I honestly think that unprotected sex is an invitation to disease, getting drunk in public bars is an invitation to self-harm, and believing what you read on internet dating sites is an invitation to disappointment.

I'm also not in my 20s and trusting. :)

[PrayersForMaura]

I was comparing the types of trendy places in Manhattan that would serve professionals, and like the other poster mentioned, maybe a country club. Patrons who think they are really in a swanky place might really be in a snake pit of ex cons, con men, or those who can't find better jobs due to a prison record. I guess women can not take for granted that they will be safe going into a small shop, bar, or any place near closing time or when not very busy due to being in danger of the employees. I saw one program on tv where a beautiful young mother took her baby to a little baby clothes shop in a good part of town. The young man working there, the owner's son, decided to kill them both.
Oh my gosh, that is sickening. :(
You just never know who you are dealing with anywhere you go.
That's a darned shame.

[tompettyfan]

The way it started out for Imette she used good judgment
was with a friend, then imo what happened next was a bad decision made by both girls. Even my daughter said she knows her friend that left her will have to live with this the rest of her life. They both had been drinking therefore weren't thinking on a normal capacity made one bad decision and Imette paid the ultimate price. The predator looks for opportunities like this and acts on them. Everyone makes a bad decision every now and then me included so any one of us at any time could become a victim. Alcohol makes a genius into a dummy.
Your post is so close to what I was trying to formulate into words. What's that saying..There but for the grace of God go I?? At Imette's age, I was constantly out with friends at clubs. Looking back, I am so thankful that I never went out alone or ended up alone on any of these occassions, because from time to time, I did absolutely have too much to drink to be in my normal state of mind. I was blessed with good friends who cared. We should of course always be vigilant for our own safety, men and women, but I'd still be willing to bet that more women are harmed inside their own homes than out.

[txsvicki]

Imette may have been out late at night and alone but she was at a place of business, and then was snatched off the street or even the hallway before getting out to the street. Any woman at any time can be snatched out of a parking lot, home, or business if some physically stronger freak zeroes in on them. Even if Imette's friend had went with her, littlejohn could have somehow gotten their names and followed her to school or something later if he were really determined. It's ridiculous to blame Imette because rapists and murderers will find a way to do their evil. I think this whole forum shows examples of just that.

[mic730]

Maybe I have spent too much time in the real world but sometimes people do things that are not the best choice at that moment in time. Hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking don't change the fact that it was littlejohn with his criminal record that should not have been working at that bar and never exposed to Imette as opposed to a long list of things that Imette should have/could have done.

Sometimes I just shake my head at all the things people should do to protect themselves. Great advice, wonderful insight, nuggets of wisdom but sometimes you just have to be a human and live your life. Living and enjoying yourself will not always agree with every safety tip listed. I bet the odds of being killed in an auto accident perfectly sober are higher than the odds of going to bar w/out a friend at 3 AM and being drunk and getting killed by a predator.

Also, excuse me, but....why would a smart young woman believe a mofo bouncer who told her he was a federal agent? The man is a bar bouncer covered with prison tattoos...No way you'd get me to believe this when I was in my twenties...

Excuse me but I understood they were joking about him being a federal agent and her being with the FBI. Joking.

WHERE THEY ARE, IN FACT, AT HIGHTER RISK...NOW NEEDS TO GET OFF THEIR AZZEZ, AND INSTEAD OF CROWING ABOUT HOW WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRESS/WALK/GO OUT ANYWHERE, SHOULD BE PUTTING THEIR RESOURCES TO EDUCATING WOMEN ABOUT HOW TO HAVE SELF-ESTEEM AND MAKE SMART CHOICES

Women can have self esteem, dress in a way others may not approve of, go where they want making the right choices and still end up dead. The problem is not women - it is those that have a sick desires and impulses. I believe our resources should go to keeping criminals like littlejohn behind bars. Call me crazed but I think the felon should be impeded in how he lives his life not a productive citizen like Imette.

Take money for a phone call and taxi fare with you."

Need I say more?

I will say more on the subject. I lived the bar life in my 20's and the most frightening experience I had was a night after 1 drink I called for a taxi. The taxi driver got weird with me - I was not drunk and following all the 'rules' for going out and to this day I shiver when I think of how the taxi driver acted and the things he said. I feel lucky that I got away with no harm other than than feeling creepy from the cab driver.

What I have learned thus far in life is that I don't have all the answers to assure safety because I am human and imperfect.

[txsvicki]

I've had my worst and frightening experiences from men who were supposed to be doing their job, not from being out alone drinking at a bar which I did when I was a teenager. I've had horrible experiences with a doctor, cab driver in Houston on the scary I-45, potential employer during an interview, a business owner, bail bondsman, restaurant patrons where I worked as a teen, a fellow restaurant worker with a dying wife, a friend's Uncle, a friend's Dad, and my daughter thought that a substitute teacher was about to abduct her from the back of the high school. It's the men who are freaks and if a woman happens to end up in the place where they are and they can make their move, they will do it. Imette was in a busines about to get a cab home. She had every right to think she was as safe there as when walking across her campus or riding a cab around town. But, if mine and other women's experiences are an example, maybe women should never ever be alone with men anywhere at anytime of day no matter who they are or what profession.

[fran]

I don't think there's any one situation that is more dangerous than another. You can be in your front yard and be abducted by a mad man, or as Imette and enjoying a night on the town. IMO, the only way to try to keep one safe without completely closing yourself off from the world, is to plan on what you would do should such a situation come forth on you.

Knowledge is power and especially for a woman. Face it, most men are physically stronger than most women. IMO, that's the main reason they go after women, because they can and have a better chance of winning.

IMO, you just need to know what you would do if you need to. Whether it's screaming 'fire!' or kicking him in the chins or if car-jacked, driving your car into a building rather than where the perp wants you to go.

I've talked to my girls to try to not put themself in a situation where something bad can happen. But it can come at anytime without a warning. I just talked to them about what they should try to do. Of course, they're getting older now with the youngest just turning 18, so I don't have complete control of what they do, but they know what they would do if need be.

As a final thought, sometimes it doesn't matter how prepared you are, you may not even see it coming. IMO, that's what happened to Imette that fateful night. :(

God rest her soul.

JMHO
fran

[panthera]

Your post is so close to what I was trying to formulate into words. What's that saying..There but for the grace of God go I?? At Imette's age, I was constantly out with friends at clubs. Looking back, I am so thankful that I never went out alone or ended up alone on any of these occassions, because from time to time, I did absolutely have too much to drink to be in my normal state of mind. I was blessed with good friends who cared. We should of course always be vigilant for our own safety, men and women, but I'd still be willing to bet that more women are harmed inside their own homes than out.
Your last sentence is very true, except, lest we forget Natalee Holloway...who left her friends behind and rode off with three 'strangers'.

[mic730]

i agree with you .a women is not'' asking for it'' because she wears a short skirt, just as a man is not asking to be robbed simply because he carries a wallet!


What a great point! Thanks for sharing that.

[Insomniac]

I was comparing the types of trendy places in Manhattan that would serve professionals, and like the other poster mentioned, maybe a country club. Patrons who think they are really in a swanky place might really be in a snake pit of ex cons, con men, or those who can't find better jobs due to a prison record. I guess women can not take for granted that they will be safe going into a small shop, bar, or any place near closing time or when not very busy due to being in danger of the employees. I saw one program on tv where a beautiful young mother took her baby to a little baby clothes shop in a good part of town. The young man working there, the owner's son, decided to kill them both.
You can go into a snake-pit of a place even with educated/wealthier customers. Andrew Luster comes to mind when thinking about someone who would go to nice places and prey on women.

[docwho3]

The fact that there are exceptions to most rules does not make it wise to do things that dramatically increase your risks. You have the right to take those risks and gamble your life but you will have to pay the price if you lose the gamble. That does not in any way excuse a murderer or mugger or rapist or other wrongdoer, but if you took unnecessary chances and lost your gamble and fell victem to an evil doer you will likely not think of your rights to go anywhere and do anything. You will likely be terrified and in more pain than you ever knew possible until your life ends . . . . . . .so my advice is to do all you can to avoid taking unnecessary chances that increase your chances of getting harmed.

Do you know what a murderer calls a young enlightened woman who read these posts about being able to go anywhere and do anything she wants when he finds her alone at night? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lunch.

[newtv]

The fact that there are exceptions to most rules does not make it wise to do things that dramatically increase your risks. You have the right to take those risks and gamble your life but you will have to pay the price if you lose the gamble. That does not in any way excuse a murderer or mugger or rapist or other wrongdoer, but if you took unnecessary chances and lost your gamble and fell victem to an evil doer you will likely not think of your rights to go anywhere and do anything. You will likely be terrified and in more pain than you ever knew possible until your life ends . . . . . . .so my advice is to do all you can to avoid taking unnecessary chances that increase your chances of getting harmed.

Do you know what a murderer calls a young enlightened woman who read these posts about being able to go anywhere and do anything she wants when he finds her alone at night? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lunch.I was going to say that while it isnt right and it isnt even true or remotely true that if attacked it would be my fault for being there, I would be afraid to walk around late into the morning anywhere-especially drinking..I am 48..when I was younger I pply would have done the same thing..and I realize how I put myself at risk..Its not a womans fault..not at all..its a reality in society that we are not as free in this way because of physical size..men can overtake us and hurt us..I always feel like i have to be vigilant when dusk comes ..but a younger person isnt yet jaded or cant imagine it happening to them..
I would not do what I did in my 20's now-dont know why I am alive (just driving fast even)..but unfortunatley we women have to be more careful to survive in th elarger world-day or night.

[docwho3]

I was going to say that while it isnt right and it isnt even true or remotely true that if attacked it would be my fault for being there, I would be afraid to walk around late into the morning anywhere-especially drinking..I am 48..when I was younger I pply would have done the same thing..and I realize how I put myself at risk..Its not a womans fault..not at all..its a reality in society that we are not as free in this way because of physical size..men can overtake us and hurt us..I always feel like i have to be vigilant when dusk comes ..but a younger person isnt yet jaded or cant imagine it happening to them..
I would not do what I did in my 20's now-dont know why I am alive (just driving fast even)..but unfortunatley we women have to be more careful to survive in th elarger world-day or night. You make very good sense.

[cammy-g]

The fact that there are exceptions to most rules does not make it wise to do things that dramatically increase your risks. You have the right to take those risks and gamble your life but you will have to pay the price if you lose the gamble. That does not in any way excuse a murderer or mugger or rapist or other wrongdoer, but if you took unnecessary chances and lost your gamble and fell victem to an evil doer you will likely not think of your rights to go anywhere and do anything. You will likely be terrified and in more pain than you ever knew possible until your life ends . . . . . . .so my advice is to do all you can to avoid taking unnecessary chances that increase your chances of getting harmed.

Do you know what a murderer calls a young enlightened woman who read these posts about being able to go anywhere and do anything she wants when he finds her alone at night? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Lunch.
Ditto

[Details]

A murderer calls just about anyone lunch.

Leaving your house for work bright and early - oops, no one around to see when he grabs you. Leaving work at night and walking to your car during a lull in the number of people leaving. Being a good samaritan just about anytime, anywhere - oops, this guy was just using your generousity to expose you to danger! Living alone! The worst of them all! All alone at home, break one window and he's got you.

All of these are riskier than going to a busy bar, then stepping out on the still fairly occupied sidewalk in front of that business to take a cab. And all of these work for male or female.

[Wuschel]

Given my behaviour in my youth, I probably "deserved" to be raped, robbed and murdered at least 27,5 times.

Tipper, I am sorry about your brother.

[mic730]

A murderer calls just about anyone lunch.

Leaving your house for work bright and early - oops, no one around to see when he grabs you. Leaving work at night and walking to your car during a lull in the number of people leaving. Being a good samaritan just about anytime, anywhere - oops, this guy was just using your generousity to expose you to danger! Living alone! The worst of them all! All alone at home, break one window and he's got you.

All of these are riskier than going to a busy bar, then stepping out on the still fairly occupied sidewalk in front of that business to take a cab. And all of these work for male or female.

Well said Details. :clap: :clap: