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View Full Version : Theory #1: Stranger Abduction by the "Couple in the Car"



Dr. Doogie
03-09-2006, 05:10 PM
This thread will be to discuss the couple that attempted to get Anna into their vehicle approximately one month before she disappeared. I will copy forward the relevant material from the previous thread and re-post it her in a condensed form.

Dr. Doogie
03-10-2006, 04:12 PM
On 2/04/06, Annasbro posted the following:

"As far as I remember it here is the accounting of the incident with the car luring Anna towards it: It seemed like the middle of the day. Maybe it was a Sat. or Sunday. We used to like to walk towards the end of the canyon down the road heading east. The house where we lived was about 1.5 miles from the end of the canyon. We were approximately 1/4 mile from our house when a car passed us and pulled infront of us about 25 ft. Saturn the dog barked at the car as a woman wearing a loose fitting white shirt with embroidery on it and long dark hair opened up the back door. She spoke to us from within the car, a 4 door american sedan that was a dark green or gold. Somehow I remember it as a chevy impala late 60s - it was not new. I know cars pretty well. I thought it had the old style washington plate - white with green letters - I can't be sure about that.

When we got the dog settled down she made small talk and addressed Anna primarily - I believe . I answered for her but she continued to address Anna with small talk and questions - do you live here?, where do you go to school?, do you walk down the road often? at that point she asked if she wanted her (us - I can't remember) to ride to the end of the road with her. This creeped me out sufficiently to turn our party around and head back home. The woman closed the door and the car scooted off quickly towards the end of the canyon. I don't remember if and how I relayed the story at the time to my parents.

I didn't think much of it. I knew some creepy people would travel down that road every once in a while. A body was dumped closer to the entry of the canyon earlier that year. I just knew there was no way any of us was going to get into a car with people we didn't know and kind of put it behind me. I wish now I had played closer attention to everything."



The significance of this event cannot be overstated. This means that one month before Anna disappeared, a couple attempted to get Anna to get in their car. It would be reasonable to assume that they returned at the later time and successfully abducted Anna. This scenario raises the possibilty that Anna was taken by a family that would raise her as their daughter. And that she could be alive today, looking for her real family...

gardenmom
03-13-2006, 12:05 AM
Doogie,
have you considered showing this to Delia Cly to see if she recognizes the description of this car? I know we don't think she is Anna, but their stories may somehow be related as far as abducting a young girl.

Dr. Doogie
03-13-2006, 11:59 AM
Doogie,
have you considered showing this to Delia Cly to see if she recognizes the description of this car? I know we don't think she is Anna, but their stories may somehow be related as far as abducting a young girl.I have discussed this with Delia. She does not recognize the description of the car, but she was going to confer with a relative to see if they remember a similar vehicle.

There may be a possible link to Delia's case. Delia has a sister by the name of "Annie Kaye Davis" who is listed as being born in 1967, the same year as Anna. If Delia is correct in her suspicion that she was stolen, it is conceivable that other of her siblings were stolen also. The time line and details of Delia's story dove-tail nicely into what we know or suspect about Anna's disappearance. The family can be placed in Northern California in the early 1970's (Modesto, which is about three hours away from Half Moon Bay). Prior to them living in Modesto, the family had been in Washington state (green and white license plates?).

Delia has seen pictures of Anna and says that she cannot rule out Anna and Annie Kaye being the same, though she does not see a direct resemblence. She is going to scan some pictures of Anna Kaye for Annasmom and family to review to see if there might be a match.

Dr. Doogie
03-13-2006, 02:05 PM
I have received the pictures from Delia Cly. Unfortunately, there are many pictures of the several different family members, so I am not sure which ones are of Annie Kaye. I will sort it out with Delia and then forward the relevant pics to Annasmom.

Dr. Doogie
03-13-2006, 07:20 PM
The pictures of Annie Kaye Davis have been identified and are being reviewed by Annasmom. Results to follow...

Dr. Doogie
03-13-2006, 09:33 PM
Annasmom has reviewed the pics and Annie Kaye Davis is not Anna. There are very distinct differences in the two sets of features. I will be posting the pictures of Delia's family up soon (tonight?) on her thread. I hope to also get Annie Kaye's pics up here for you to compare for yourselves.

deliacly
03-13-2006, 10:22 PM
THANKS, DR.DOOGIE, I SORRY FOR ANNSMOM, I'M SORRY ANNIE KAY WASN'T ANNA.... I FEEL THE SAME KIND OF PAIN AS ANNSMOM.... IT'S HELL TO LIVE THE KIND OF LIFE THAT WE DO.... WAITING, WONDERING AND ALWAYS SEARCHING!!!!! GOD WILL SEE US THROUGH!!!!!!
Annasmom has reviewed the pics and Annie Kaye Davis is not Anna. There are very distinct differences in the two sets of features. I will be posting the pictures of Delia's family up soon (tonight?) on her thread. I hope to also get Annie Kaye's pics up here for you to compare for yourselves.

deliacly
03-14-2006, 12:41 AM
i ask darla about the car and it didn't sound like any cars that she remembered... sorry....
Doogie,
have you considered showing this to Delia Cly to see if she recognizes the description of this car? I know we don't think she is Anna, but their stories may somehow be related as far as abducting a young girl.

Dr. Doogie
03-14-2006, 12:34 PM
Delia:

Thanks for joining our discussion. As you can see, we are looking under every possible stone for the answer to what happened to Anna. Good luck in your search.

Dr. Doogie
03-15-2006, 03:02 PM
One important aspect about this couple: If they returned one month after the inital abduction attempt and did take Anna (which is the most logical explaination for Anna's disappearance), then they either lived somewhere within a half-day's drive of Half Moon Bay or were in the area for an extended stay between December 1972 and January 1973. It would make sense that they were close enough to make two trips a month apart, but lived far enough away that the local media coverage of would not raise suspicion as to why they sudden had a daughter. The San Francisco media market would cover the entire Bay Area from Santa Rosa to the north, San Jose to the south and Livermore to the east. This is why (in my mind) the central valley of California is the most likely area that they would be from (from Sacramento to the north, down to Fresno or Bakersfield to the south). The central valley would be within either the Sacramento market or their own media markets, and an abductor would thus avoid the glare of public scrutiny.

Dr. Doogie
04-11-2006, 01:30 PM
Another find from the Box from Hell: when GW died, he had two phone numbers in his wallet - one of which was a number from Washington State (remember that the couple in car may have had Washington State license plates). I have contacted Joe Ford concerning this because he did a very thorough analysis of Waters' phone records after GW's death and may recall who held this number. Unfortunately, this was twenty-five years ago and whoever holds that number now is very unlikely to be the same person as in 1981.

PonderingThings
04-11-2006, 01:58 PM
One important aspect about this couple: If they returned one month after the inital abduction attempt and did take Anna (which is the most logical explaination for Anna's disappearance), then they either lived somewhere within a half-day's drive of Half Moon Bay or were in the area for an extended stay between December 1972 and January 1973. It would make sense that they were close enough to make two trips a month apart, but lived far enough away that the local media coverage of would not raise suspicion as to why they sudden had a daughter. The San Francisco media market would cover the entire Bay Area from Santa Rosa to the north, San Jose to the south and Livermore to the east. This is why (in my mind) the central valley of California is the most likely area that they would be from (from Sacramento to the north, down to Fresno or Bakersfield to the south). The central valley would be within either the Sacramento market or their own media markets, and an abductor would thus avoid the glare of public scrutiny.
Dr. Doogie how much publicity was there in Anna's case? Did it get beyond the local area?

I'm asking because that time period was marketed by some pretty serious serial killers and Santa Cruz (just down the road) was dubbed the "Murder Capital". Seems to me the press would only mention Anna's disappearance in passing... although I could be wrong....

Dr. Doogie
04-11-2006, 02:25 PM
Dr. Doogie how much publicity was there in Anna's case? Did it get beyond the local area?

I'm asking because that time period was marketed by some pretty serious serial killers and Santa Cruz (just down the road) was dubbed the "Murder Capital". Seems to me the press would only mention Anna's disappearance in passing... although I could be wrong....
Annasmom can probably give a more definitive answer on this, but here is what I know:

There was coverage most heavily in the Half Moon Bay Area and San Mateo County. It did receive some coverage in the Bay Area newspapers for a couple of days (initial story and a few followups) - I do not know about TV or radio coverage. Annasmom published an article in the SF Chronicle/Examiner Sunday Magazine a couple of years after Anna's disappearance that reached a good portion of Northern California. There has never been any national exposure beyond the "milk carton circuit" - postings on various missing persons sites, "Have You Seen..." mass mailings by advertisers (the type of stuff that we all here on WS pay attention to, but the general population usually ignores). The recent post about Anna's case being listed in a giveaway trucking magazine is probably the most exposure that has occured in twenty-five years. Anna has never been featured on any national newscasts or crimestopper shows like AMW or Unsolved Mysteries.

The main motivation behind Annasmom publishing her manuscript (we are working on it!) would be to create new media interest in the case. Media coverage creates more media coverage and the book will hopefully be the spark that ignites the flame.

kyresearcher
04-12-2006, 01:26 AM
One important aspect about this couple: If they returned one month after the inital abduction attempt and did take Anna (which is the most logical explaination for Anna's disappearance), then they either lived somewhere within a half-day's drive of Half Moon Bay or were in the area for an extended stay between December 1972 and January 1973. It would make sense that they were close enough to make two trips a month apart, but lived far enough away that the local media coverage of would not raise suspicion as to why they sudden had a daughter. The San Francisco media market would cover the entire Bay Area from Santa Rosa to the north, San Jose to the south and Livermore to the east. This is why (in my mind) the central valley of California is the most likely area that they would be from (from Sacramento to the north, down to Fresno or Bakersfield to the south). The central valley would be within either the Sacramento market or their own media markets, and an abductor would thus avoid the glare of public scrutiny. DrDoogie, you stated in earlier post that GW and GB had another room rented in the motel, could this room have been used by the abductors before, during and after the abduction? They may have even used it after just to keep Anna close to GW in case there was any need for him to be of assistance, such as keeping her sedated until she became familiar with her abductors, so not to call any attention to them. Do you know what time frame this extra room was rented? Just wondering........

kyresearcher
04-12-2006, 01:37 AM
Another find from the Box from Hell: when GW died, he had two phone numbers in his wallet - one of which was a number from Washington State (remember that the couple in car may have had Washington State license plates). I have contacted Joe Ford concerning this because he did a very thorough analysis of Waters' phone records after GW's death and may recall who held this number. Unfortunately, this was twenty-five years ago and whoever holds that number now is very unlikely to be the same person as in 1981. DrDoogie, I have had the same phone # for 24 years. Have you done a reverse phone # lookup to see who it belongs to? I know you can't post the # on the forum but maybe you could pm some of the good researchers and let them see what they can find out about the person who has the #. :crazy:

Dr. Doogie
04-12-2006, 01:47 AM
DrDoogie, you stated in earlier post that GW and GB had another room rented in the motel, could this room have been used by the abductors before, during and after the abduction? They may have even used it after just to keep Anna close to GW in case there was any need for him to be of assistance, such as keeping her sedated until she became familiar with her abductors, so not to call any attention to them. Do you know what time frame this extra room was rented? Just wondering........
They had two rooms in the same hotel (650 Geary Street) - one registered to Brody and one for Waters, though they usually stayed in the same room together. Evidently, Brody also kept the room he had in a different hotel (1153 Sutter) prior to moving in with Waters a few blocks away. Evidently, they had all three rooms in January 1973, but the existance of the Sutter Street room was not known at the time when LE investigated them shortly after Anna's disappearance.

Dr. Doogie
04-12-2006, 01:49 AM
DrDoogie, I have had the same phone # for 24 years. Have you done a reverse phone # lookup to see who it belongs to? I know you can't post the # on the forum but maybe you could pm some of the good researchers and let them see what they can find out about the person who has the #. :crazy:
I have access to some reverse search engines - I'll give it a shot.

SherlockJr
04-22-2006, 08:26 PM
If you visit the public library, they have the "Polk Directory". This directory is published often (if not yearly, than every other year). You can find a directory for 1972 at the library. However, this may have to be done in Washington state in the city where the area code is from. Many times a person working in the library are helpful and will look it up if a you call them. You may have to look into all years after 1973 up until 1981.




I have access to some reverse search engines - I'll give it a shot.

kyresearcher
04-22-2006, 10:47 PM
If you visit the public library, they have the "Polk Directory". This directory is published often (if not yearly, than every other year). You can find a directory for 1972 at the library. However, this may have to be done in Washington state in the city where the area code is from. Many times a person working in the library are helpful and will look it up if a you call them. You may have to look into all years after 1973 up until 1981.Sherlock, I have looked on all reverse phone lookups I can find and have looked for old phone books for the Seattle, Washington area, since that is where the area code is from. I can't find any listing of the #. Joe Ford had called it sometime after Anna's disapperance and it was no longer in service. Right now I am looking on ebay for a 1970 phone directory for the Seattle, Washington area and even have a post in the Want It Now on ebay. I am going to find one and I will go throught each listing, individual and business. I am thinking this is one link that may take us to Anna. If anyone reading has one of these phone directories please pm me and if you will send it to me I will get it back to you after I search for this #.

kyresearcher
04-22-2006, 11:09 PM
I meant to say I am looking for a 1972 phone directory for Seattle, Washington altho it could be listed in a later book.

SherlockJr
04-22-2006, 11:16 PM
Another idea Kyresearcher, you and I can leave KY and pull a Thelma and Louise and go cross country ourselves.

kyresearcher
04-22-2006, 11:33 PM
Another idea Kyresearcher, you and I can leave KY and pull a Thelma and Louise and go cross country ourselves. Ha Ha, neither one of them has white hair, so who would I be?

Shadow205
04-23-2006, 10:19 AM
I meant to say I am looking for a 1972 phone directory for Seattle, Washington altho it could be listed in a later book.
How about contacting the phone company directly. Maybe they keep old copies of the phone directories. I was trying to help find you one and came across this site http://www.bcgs.ca/TEL_DIR.htm#Miscellaneous%20Directories%20(%20Unit ed%20States%20)

Directories held at The British Columbia Genealogical Society's Resource Centre in Surrey, B.C. Canada
They listed several in both Canada and USA including:
Seattle, Washington1980-1981, 1982, 1993-1994

Maybe check with other Genealogical Society's in the Seattle area, maybe they would have what you are looking for.

Shadow205
04-23-2006, 10:24 AM
Here you go Kyresearcher, everything you could ever want to know about old phone books plus tons of links on where to find them!

http://www.oldtelephonebooks.com/pblink.html

kyresearcher
04-23-2006, 11:54 PM
Here you go Kyresearcher, everything you could ever want to know about old phone books plus tons of links on where to find them!

http://www.oldtelephonebooks.com/pblink.html Thanks Shadow, I will see what I can find.

SherlockJr
05-17-2006, 12:54 PM
[Quoted from page 1]When we got the dog settled down she made small talk and addressed Anna primarily - I believe . I answered for her but she continued to address Anna with small talk and questions - do you live here?, where do you go to school?, do you walk down the road often? at that point she asked if she wanted her (us - I can't remember) to ride to the end of the road with her.


Does anyone recall where Saturn was when Anna disappeared? Sounds like if Saturn would go crazy when a car stopped on the road while they were walking, he/she would have been barking if a stranger entered the yard. Would Saturn bark at anyone?

SherlockJr
05-17-2006, 01:05 PM
[again quoted from page 1] ...a woman wearing a loose fitting white shirt with embroidery on it and long dark hair opened up the back door. She spoke to us from within the car...


Annasbro, can you try to guess the age of this woman? Do you remember any accent when she spoke?

Annasmom
05-17-2006, 01:27 PM
[Quoted from page 1]When we got the dog settled down she made small talk and addressed Anna primarily - I believe . I answered for her but she continued to address Anna with small talk and questions - do you live here?, where do you go to school?, do you walk down the road often? at that point she asked if she wanted her (us - I can't remember) to ride to the end of the road with her.


Does anyone recall where Saturn was when Anna disappeared? Sounds like if Saturn would go crazy when a car stopped on the road while they were walking, he/she would have been barking if a stranger entered the yard. Would Saturn bark at anyone? Saturn was a very young dog and definitely not a watch dog (he once let a female dog into the chicken yard, where she feasted on our laying hens.) To my recollection, he was in the back yard when Anna disappeared, though when we started looking for her, he followed us back and forth.

SherlockJr
05-17-2006, 01:36 PM
Saturn was a very young dog and definitely not a watch dog (he once let a female dog into the chicken yard, where she feasted on our laying hens.) To my recollection, he was in the back yard when Anna disappeared, though when we started looking for her, he followed us back and forth.
My guess would be Anna was taken from the front yard and was not in Saturn's sight. It was mentioned she may have gone up to get the mail. Do you remember if you had any mail that day? Could she have gotten the mail and then taken afterwards? Would Anna normally go fetch the mail?

Annasmom
05-17-2006, 03:03 PM
My guess would be Anna was taken from the front yard and was not in Saturn's sight. It was mentioned she may have gone up to get the mail. Do you remember if you had any mail that day? Could she have gotten the mail and then taken afterwards? Would Anna normally go fetch the mail? Yes, we are thinking that Anna saw our neighbor (who was visiting in the house) opening her mail from the previous day and thought the mail had come (it had not), went out the back door, around to the front, up the road, and may have been taken from there. The mail deliverer came after Anna had disappeared, and she assured us that she had followed her regular route, over Higgins Canyon road, on to Purisima Creek Road. (Some people questioned whether this road would have been open due to the storms.) If, as we speculate, an abductor was watching the house and continued driving the shorter lap of the road to the Coast Highway, the mail woman would not have seen the vehicle. I drove over the road myself only a few days ago and could see the farm from many wooded places along the way. Yes, Anna often went up to the mailbox to get the mail.

Dr. Doogie
09-27-2006, 07:27 PM
We are attempting to verify corraborating evidence that this tip is legitimate, but we have a report that Anna was seen and spoken to by a woman in 1976. The information that we received corresponds with the theory of Anna being abducted by a childless couple who sought a daughter.

There are many aspects of this new tip that require verification that we are attempting to do, so I am holding back any additional details until we have a better feel about the truthfulness of the lead. I do not want to send everyone out "chasing gooses" when this could be a hoax or a fraud. Once (and if) we qualify this legit, all of the details will be posted for your assistance in following up.

Needless to say, if this does turn out to legit, this is the break that we have been praying for.

GraceBlue
09-27-2006, 07:50 PM
We are attempting to verify corraborating evidence that this tip is legitimate, but we have a report that Anna was seen and spoken to by a woman in 1976. The information that we received corresponds with the theory of Anna being abducted by a childless couple who sought a daughter.

There are many aspects of this new tip that require verification that we are attempting to do, so I am holding back any additional details until we have a better feel about the truthfulness of the lead. I do not want to send everyone out "chasing gooses" when this could be a hoax or a fraud. Once (and if) we qualify this legit, all of the details will be posted for your assistance in following up.

Needless to say, if this does turn out to legit, this is the break that we have been praying for.

Oh my gosh. I have tears in my eyes. I know I know its too early to say but I am soooo hoping that this is true.

Did the person who gave you the info say where they saw her? How did they 'remember' it was actually 1976?

SherlockJr
09-27-2006, 11:56 PM
We are attempting to verify corraborating evidence that this tip is legitimate, but we have a report that Anna was seen and spoken to by a woman in 1976. The information that we received corresponds with the theory of Anna being abducted by a childless couple who sought a daughter.

There are many aspects of this new tip that require verification that we are attempting to do, so I am holding back any additional details until we have a better feel about the truthfulness of the lead. I do not want to send everyone out "chasing gooses" when this could be a hoax or a fraud. Once (and if) we qualify this legit, all of the details will be posted for your assistance in following up.

Needless to say, if this does turn out to legit, this is the break that we have been praying for.

I'm burning the candles on both ends for Anna. Our prayers are with Anna's family at this time.



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/message.cfm?l=eng&cid=1786817

itsreenw
09-28-2006, 01:09 AM
I know you can't tell us much but can you tell us who was contacted and when?

Is this a new tip or something that was just discovered from old notes?
Everybody reading here that prays, let's ALL pray that this will lead us to our Anna. It's time for her to come home.

Doogie, I'm back at work. You know how to contact me if you need to.

smile22
09-28-2006, 05:06 AM
this is really good news hopefully the tip pans into something and not a person mistaking someone looking like her.

Dr. Doogie
09-28-2006, 11:37 AM
I received a phone call Tuesday evening from a resident of the Half Moon Bay area. She identified herself by name and also gave a phone number and a description of where she lives.

She stated that in 1976 when she was 17 years old, she was visited by a man and an 8 year old girl at her house. The woman's father owned several "low-income" rental properties in San Mateo county and she believes that this man was a tenant and there to pay his rent. The father was not there, so she engaged the man and child in conversation.

When the man was in another room, the girl identified herself as "Anna" and that the man was not her father. Anna stated that the man had taken her because his wife couldn't have children and she wanted a daughter. Anna asked the teenager to "Tell my mother that I am okay", but didn't want to do anything that would get her new parents in trouble. Anna's hair had been died dark brown.

When the man returned to the room, he realized what had been discussed and stated that he didn't want to "live the rest of his life in a cage". The teenager interpeted this as a veiled threat to keep quiet about what she had heard. As the man and Anna were leaving, the teen told the man that "You are in your forties - you're old enough to know better than to do this!". The man stopped, turned to her and replied, "I am forty-seven." She described him as stocky, about 5' 8" or taller with light brown short hair. She stated that he was a construction worker and that Anna referred to him as "Bill".

There are several parts of this story that seem fantastic, but this case has some parts that are fantastic that are also true. As a result, I am employing the old Ronald Reagan adage: "Trust, but verify". We have been able to establish that the phone number that she gave is hers and is in the area the matches up with area that she said she lived in. It also seems that her name is true also. The fact that she has given her real name and number to me increases the believability of the rest of the story.

If this new info is true, that means that Anna was alive three years after her disappearance. She would have been living in eastern San Mateo county (San Mateo or Redwood City?) and possibly attending public schools there. Her abductor would most likely have been employed in construction in the same area.

If we can establish that more of her story proves true, then we may have enough to get LE involvement. There remains the possibility that this new information is a hoax or the sincere beliefs by a deluded person. But there is also the possibility that it is the truth and that we have the outline of what happened to Anna and a direction to finding her alive.

Dr. Doogie
09-28-2006, 12:27 PM
One additional bit of information: It dawned on me that the woman's father who had the rental properties may have been able to identify the abductor from the woman's description, but she stated that he was quite old now and has Alzheimers, so any information that he might supply would be questionable. What I have not established yet is if any rental records from 1976 are available that would narrow our search down to a handful of possible suspects - I will try and establish this the next time I speak to her.

Shadow205
09-28-2006, 12:54 PM
Did this woman come forward after the newspaper article? Did she say that she had read about Anna?

I hope that this is legit and not just one of those people who sometimes "remember" something after a story appears in the media.

I will be anxiously awaiting more details and pray that this is true.

Dr. Doogie
09-28-2006, 01:10 PM
Did this woman come forward after the newspaper article? Did she say that she had read about Anna?

She called as a result of the article. She stated that she was unfamiliar with Anna's disappearance prior to getting the visit from Anna and the man.

GraceBlue
09-28-2006, 02:23 PM
Wow! That is one bizzare story. I hope it is true.

I've read that Anna was called with a long A as in swan. Did the woman say the little girl said her name that way? How did the woman know the little girl's hair was actually dyed or it was just naturally brown? Did she say the little girl had a mole like Anna's?

Is there anything I can do to help in related to searching for this "Bill"? I know I am on the east coast but please do not hestitate to PM or email me if you need help!

Dr. Doogie
09-28-2006, 02:31 PM
I've read that Anna was called with a long A as in swan. Did the woman say the little girl said her name that way?
I believe so.


How did the woman know the little girl's hair was actually dyed or it was just naturally brown? Did she say the little girl had a mole like Anna's?
I believe that she mentioned that because she knew that Anna was blond (after reading the article) and the girl she meet had dark hair, so she assumed that the hair had been dyed. She did not mention the mole, but the mole is not a pronounced feature on her face.


Is there anything I can do to help in related to searching for this "Bill"? I know I am on the east coast but please do not hestitate to PM or email me if you need help!
I am still working on confirming details about the caller and her life - the more details about herself that she mentioned that can be confirmed lends creedence to other parts of the story. So far, everything about herself that I have investigated has been true.

smile22
09-28-2006, 03:48 PM
hopefully this new evidence will pan out to be ligit. that we dont have to foucus on the creek anymore.hopefully records will exsist for the rentals and we can find the person we are looking for

mfmangel1
09-28-2006, 05:10 PM
Would this source have access to records showing addresses of the properties her father owned at that time or does the family still own the properties?

Perhaps we could check census records for that time period....?

itsreenw
09-29-2006, 12:35 AM
After reading the woman's statements at least 10 times I am inclined to believe that this woman is not truthful. This woman seems to recall details that are too specific.

She remembered:
his name was Bill

his occupation

exactly how old she and Anna were at the time and somehow knew the man was in his 40's.

that Anna told her she was abducted because the man's wife wanted a daughter.

Things I find questionable:

She recalled the specifics of the conversation but she didn't remember exactly why he was there-she thought he was there to pay his rent.
Was anyone else home with her? Why let a strange man in the house that came asking for her father who was not home at the time?

What other room was he in when this conversation took place? Was he just wandering around the house while she and Anna were talking? Was he in the restroom? Kitchen? Where were she and Anna in the house?

After hearing Anna's story why not tell her dad immediately if she didn't feel comfortable calling the police.

Is it common to anyone's knowledge, that abductors that intend to keep the child alive would tell her the truth? Seems the abductor would've told Anna her parents were dead, moved away, didin't love her, etc as their reason for taking her. Not simply because his wife couldnt get pregnant-she would have been crying to go home all the time.

What made the year stand out in her mind? She somehow knew the man was in his 40s. How? Then he conveniently provides his exact age. She feels the man's statement that he didn't plan "to live his life in a cage" as a veiled threat but she went on to chastise him about abducting Anna.

If Anna spoke so freely to this girl, surely in 3 years Anna had come in contact with other people. There should be others coming forward that had similar conversations with Anna.

Those are my observations. Sorry if I sound pessimistic. Just don't want to experience another Delia Cly fiasco.

Dr. Doogie
09-29-2006, 11:42 AM
After reading the woman's statements at least 10 times I am inclined to believe that this woman is not truthful... Sorry if I sound pessimistic. Just don't want to experience another Delia Cly fiasco.
Your observations are valid, and I also do not want a repeat of the Delia Cly fiasco. I will state that, so far, the details of her story about herself have proved true: Her name and phone number, where she lives, the names and ages of her brother and father, and the fact that her father owned rental properties in the area have all been verified. Had any of these facts proved false, then I would have dismissed this info as fraudulent. However, that these were true lends creedence to the truthfulness of her information about Anna. A Delia Cly situation is still possible (and there are a couple of more things that I want to confirm before we move forward with this info).

Concerning the specific info about the woman's encounter with Anna: some of the questions that you have may be because of my re-telling of her words. I didn't go into great detail about why the man was there at her house, so there may be obvious holes in the story, not because it isn't true as much as I didn't ask the questions to fill in those holes (yet). I also have a lot of questions that will either make this more believable or shoot it down.

SherlockJr
09-29-2006, 12:11 PM
[QUOTE=itsreenw]After reading the woman's statements at least 10 times I am inclined to believe that this woman is not truthful....QUOTE]

You have a right to your opinion. I would believe this person has already visited this website along with many other residents of HMB. Why would a person give their real name, address, etc, make something up fearing falsifying a police report? If I were a resident and something about this story triggered a memory I had, I would now almost be afraid to call in the tip realizing that someone would shoot down my credibility so quickly.

The community is reaching out to us on our request. If there are any other residents who want to offer information, they can certainly request Dr Doogie not to post that information on this forum.

Annasmom
09-29-2006, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE=itsreenw]After reading the woman's statements at least 10 times I am inclined to believe that this woman is not truthful....QUOTE]

You have a right to your opinion. I would believe this person has already visited this website along with many other residents of HMB. Why would a person give their real name, address, etc, make something up fearing falsifying a police report? If I were a resident and something about this story triggered a memory I had, I would now almost be afraid to call in the tip realizing that someone would shoot down my credibility so quickly.

The community is reaching out to us on our request. If there are any other residents who want to offer information, they can certainly request Dr Doogie not to post that information on this forum.
Here are some things to consider: The story may be true, false, or partly true. Some of the parties to this story may be dead. The informant's life or Anna's life may have been threatened if the story was divulged before now. The informant may have known the purported abductor. He may have been an itinerant carpenter, not necessarily a licensed contractor. He may have worked for her father and may have been doing work on the property. He may have lived in a motor home or trailer.

Elberethe
09-29-2006, 12:52 PM
The first tip from the newspaper article! :woohoo: I believe there are people out there who know something, who may not even know they know something. The publicity is going to shake something loose. We need more of these and the BOOK!! Not to put pressure on you or anything. /snicker

Great work Doogie. Can you verify if her father actually has alheizmers (sp?) because that one struck me weird for some reason. I'm not sure there would be much in the way of records, like most people are thinking. Low income properties tend to be very loosely rented. Seldom even having leases or rental agreements. Often to transient types (farmers, pickers). Construction? Doesn't that usually pay pretty good? Coincidence that Bill is same line of work as Joe Ford and Craig Barrick? Then again, there has been alot of growth so I suppose it isn't too remarkable a coincidence.

I don't want to throw a damp rag on anyone's hopes either, and I'm sure Doogie will get to the bottom of it. I too find it odd that Anna would be telling her story and not have told it to others. I do seriously doubt she was in the school system however (teachers are great confidants to kids and she would have hooked up with one if she knew the truth of her situation). Then, I'm not so sure she knows the truth of her situation. She was young enough she could easily be led to believe something else happened to her. People don't usually have alot of recollection from that age. I suppose the abductor could have told Anna the truth and Anna was sharing that info, but I really kinda doubt she would have stayed missing long if that was true. =*( I think it more likely she was told a lie or threatened.

The "veiled threat" the teenager remembers. I don't get it. How is that a threat? What does it mean? If a person doesn't want to live caged, they usually move. I don't understand how that was a threat. I also find it odd the teenager didn't at least tell her dad about the man/threat/stolen child. She never told any of her friends in all that time? She never told anyone? For me as a teenager to keep quiet about something like that, I would have to be very heavily into drugs/booze (couldn't care less) or the threat would have had to be more implicit (You say anything and I will KILL YOU and your little dog!)

As for remembering the exact year. That isn't hard to do. You aren't a teenager for long. Depending on circumstances in your life, it is pretty easy to pin down a year (or at least would be for me). I do find it odd the man volunteered his age (to confirm that yes, he is in his 40's)? I don't see him as having anything to prove. Here you have an abductor who just got caught and he doesn't make any *real* threats? Maybe, by saying he didn't want to be caged, he meant he would just move far from the area. He would still have Anna telling her story at every possible moment though. She really didn't tell her dad because of a threat he didn't want to be caged? Something not working for me there.

It could be a bad lead. That is always a possibility. It could also be someone who knows something, but doesn't want to be completely honest about what they know. Consider this scenerio. Bill is a family member. Not her dad, but say an uncle or even very close friend of the family. Someone you wouldn't want to get in trouble (no threats needed). Someone you might have wished would do the right thing, but someone you really don't want harm to come to. Maybe even someone you can half way sympathize with.

Suffice it to say, given the info we have so far, my gut reaction is the person isn't being honest. The better question would be WHY aren't they being honest. Either way, good work checking the story out Doogie. I also think you should let the police know about the tip. They have more resources to determine the credibility and follow up on any further leads. Besides, this isn't really a closed case. I think you are kinda obligated to let the police know (hint, hint).

Will be keeping a candle lit that this turns up something useful. I can so see Anna trying to tell her story. Makes me seriously wonder how she has stayed hidden. I still go for homeschooling and keeping her pretty disconnected from anyone she could tell. Eventually, she forgets or is led to believe another truth? Still, unless she was kept locked in a basement or upstairs room (couple of recent cases) and no one knew about her, then there should be family members/friends who know something is amiss. How willing would be they be to come forward? How much would Anna still remember of her ordeal? If she was trying to talk to people, she would remember that much. It would still be there in her memory even if it was locked away.

I think the publicity is going to shake something loose. :woohoo:

Elberethe
09-29-2006, 12:53 PM
Here are some things to consider: The story may be true, false, or partly true. Some of the parties to this story may be dead. The informant's life or Anna's life may have been threatened if the story was divulged before now. The informant may have known the purported abductor. He may have been an itinerant carpenter, not necessarily a licensed contractor. He may have worked for her father and may have been doing work on the property. He may have lived in a motor home or trailer.

Hehe, we cross posted. See my thoughts on why I believe this person isn't being honest. You got it. She may know the abductor.

Good job.

Elberethe
09-29-2006, 01:10 PM
He may have worked for her father and may have been doing work on the property. He may have lived in a motor home or trailer.

Annasmom, I keep thinking of my dream too and this is more the reason why. You and I think so much alike that I doubt there is much I could tell you that you don't already know. Remember when I said it is possible to live in HMB and not be known? This is how I did it. I worked for someone there and lived on their property in a trailor (with my boyfriend). We also stole all their booze and they never did figure out what happened to it! ~laughs~ I was a mess in my younger days, but suffice it to say, alot can happen in HMB that the community is not aware of. ;)

Dr. Doogie
09-29-2006, 01:52 PM
The first tip from the newspaper article!
Actually, this would be the third call as a result of the article. The first was from Anna's bus driver CK who we had been trying to locate. She stated that she did recall seeing some white vehicles parked on PC Road, near where it ends at Hwy. 1, but nothing suspicious beyond that. The second call was from a current resident of PC Road who stated that the previous owner of her house had been convicted of murder and buried his victim on his property (about a mile or so from where Anna disappeared). I am working on exploring his history and his possibility of involvement in Anna's disappearance (coincidently, he was a construction contracter also, but other details about him do not match this new information, so I doubt that the two tips are related).


I believe there are people out there who know something, who may not even know they know something. The publicity is going to shake something loose. We need more of these and the BOOK!! Not to put pressure on you or anything. /snicker
Non-pressure duly noted - LOL!


Can you verify if her father actually has alheizmers (sp?) because that one struck me weird for some reason.
The father is 90 years old, so this is believable to me. I will admit that him being unavailable to verify parts of this story is somewhat suspicious, but does not seem too out of the question.


I'm not sure there would be much in the way of records, like most people are thinking. Low income properties tend to be very loosely rented. Seldom even having leases or rental agreements. Often to transient types (farmers, pickers).
It would depend on how thorough the father was in his record-keeping. The infamous Box from Hell contains every bank statement and every correspondance that GW ever wrote since 1967 (mostly because GW was compulsive about record keeping). If the father was as thorough, he may still have records. I, on the other hand, keep nothing on file from even last month.


Construction? Doesn't that usually pay pretty good? Coincidence that Bill is same line of work as Joe Ford and Craig Barrick? Then again, there has been alot of growth so I suppose it isn't too remarkable a coincidence.
I had considered, that since construction was specifically mentioned, that perhaps there was a tie-in to perhaps a co-worker of Joe's that had overheard a conversation about Anna and "chose" her as a result. Joe does not recall any co-worker who fits that description and says that he was an apprentice and kept to himself for the most part and wouldn't have discussed his family with any co-workers.

The pay for construction workers varies quite a bit: a journeyman union worker would have made a pretty good wage, while a non-union general laborer would have made substantially less.

About the coincidence of the abducter, Joe and Barick all being in construction: the fact that Joe was a construction worker was not mentioned in article. Unless the tipster came to this website and read the entire thread to glean that fact before making her call, there is no way that she would have known this.


...I too find it odd that Anna would be telling her story and not have told it to others...Then, I'm not so sure she knows the truth of her situation. She was young enough she could easily be led to believe something else happened to her. People don't usually have alot of recollection from that age. I suppose the abductor could have told Anna the truth and Anna was sharing that info, but I really kinda doubt she would have stayed missing long if that was true...
I am also uncomfortable with this detail of the story, but I cannot dismiss it outright. Anna's statements seem to display an unusually mature and deep understanding of her situation for an eight year old. However, enough of this case is illogical, yet true (How many people would believe that an Ivy League educated physician making $75,000 a year in the 1970's would be living in a sleazy hotel with a crazy guru as his mentor?).


The "veiled threat" the teenager remembers. I don't get it. How is that a threat? What does it mean? ...
The tipster did not specifically call the statement about "living in a cage" a threat. I used that term based on reading between the lines of what she was saying - and I could be wrong in that interpetation.


It could be a bad lead. That is always a possibility. It could also be someone who knows something, but doesn't want to be completely honest about what they know. Consider this scenerio. Bill is a family member. Not her dad, but say an uncle or even very close friend of the family. Someone you wouldn't want to get in trouble (no threats needed). Someone you might have wished would do the right thing, but someone you really don't want harm to come to. Maybe even someone you can half way sympathize with.
I got the distinct feeling that there is more to the story than I was being told. I probed as much as I could without driving her away, but there are more details to be discovered in future conversations.


...I also think you should let the police know about the tip. They have more resources to determine the credibility and follow up on any further leads. Besides, this isn't really a closed case. I think you are kinda obligated to let the police know (hint, hint).
There are a couple of things that I want to accomplish before we turn this over to LE: First, I want to establish in my mind that this is most likely true (I don't want to publically state what means are being used to confirm this presently). Secondly, I want to be sure that the tipster is willing to tell her story to LE. I have tried hard to have a good working relationship with the local LE - if I brought them a hot tip that fell apart upon any review, it would damage whatever trust we have been able to build with them.

Dr. Doogie
09-29-2006, 01:59 PM
...Remember when I said it is possible to live in HMB and not be known? This is how I did it. I worked for someone there and lived on their property in a trailor (with my boyfriend). We also stole all their booze and they never did figure out what happened to it! ~laughs~ I was a mess in my younger days, but suffice it to say, alot can happen in HMB that the community is not aware of. ;)
Interestingly, the meeting between the tipster and Anna (if true) occured only about four blocks from where Annasmom lived (and about one and a half blocks from where I lived at the time).

Elberethe
09-29-2006, 02:20 PM
Interestingly, the meeting between the tipster and Anna (if true) occured only about four blocks from where Annasmom lived (and about one and a half blocks from where I lived at the time).

Ok, 3rd tip then! Wow, that is alot! The guy who murdered and buried in his yard is terrible though. I wonder if his victim was random or known to him. There must be some news account of that too, I would think. I don't remember anything like that, but I wasn't into true crime as much back then as I am now. Still, think something like that one would remember it. How long ago did this happen? The murder/burial?

Yah, it is close. I dreamed it was, but since I have often wondered how they kept it hidden. I see other cases where it is, but I guess I just don't want to believe Anna lives or ever lived under those conditions. Glad you picked up on the "there is more to the story" from the teenager. I can understand only wanting to give credible tips to the police. I can also understand wanting to make sure you have someone willing to cooperate. Still, isn't all tips suppose to go to the police? They can't loose faith over bad tips ... they are suppose to take all. Not your fault if one is bad. Just don't want you to get in trouble for something stupid like "impeding an investigation" even tho there isn't much of one going on. Know what I mean?

Well, I have to be off now. Talk to you all later. You won't be far from my thoughts. :blowkiss:

Dr. Doogie
09-29-2006, 02:33 PM
The guy who murdered and buried in his yard is terrible though. I wonder if his victim was random or known to him. There must be some news account of that too, I would think. I don't remember anything like that, but I wasn't into true crime as much back then as I am now. Still, think something like that one would remember it. How long ago did this happen? The murder/burial?This occured in the early 1990's. We have been able to trace this guy living on PC Road as far back as 1981, but not farther. Also, the murder was over money between acquaintances. I should have more info by the beginning of next week concerning this guy, but for now it is just a known bad-guy who lived near where Anna disappeared at a much later date. Absent any additional incriminating info, it is most likely unrelated.

The murderer in question was named Ronald R. Middleton. The victim's name was Henry Olson.

Gina_M
09-30-2006, 05:12 PM
When the man was in another room, the girl identified herself as "Anna" and that the man was not her father. Anna stated that the man had taken her because his wife couldn't have children and she wanted a daughter. Anna asked the teenager to "Tell my mother that I am okay", but didn't want to do anything that would get her new parents in trouble. Anna's hair had been died dark brown.

When the man returned to the room, he realized what had been discussed and stated that he didn't want to "live the rest of his life in a cage". The teenager interpeted this as a veiled threat to keep quiet about what she had heard. As the man and Anna were leaving, the teen told the man that "You are in your forties - you're old enough to know better than to do this!". The man stopped, turned to her and replied, "I am forty-seven." She described him as stocky, about 5' 8" or taller with light brown short hair. She stated that he was a construction worker and that Anna referred to him as "Bill".

OMG...when I read this post, I must say my jaw dropped wide open and my heart started racing! After reading some of the replies I can see why we should be cautious...but I still think there is a good possibility that it's true. Anna, if this girl was Anna, did seem to display a very mature and deep understanding of the situation for her age. But from everything I've read about Anna (Annasmom can verify this :) ), she was very mature for her age.

Oh, and it is easy (for me) to remember the exact year something happened, especially when I was young. We often tie significant events in our memory with what grade we were in school, or something else significant. For example, "I know xxx happened in 1993 because it was right before I graduated from high school". So that part seems very credible to me :)

Dr. Doogie
09-30-2006, 06:39 PM
I have discovered new information that raises questions about the reliability of our witness. Her sincerity is not in question, just the truthfulness of her testimony.

Her information may still be of value, but it certainly means that much more needs to evaluated before any involvement by LE or the media is considered.

Annasmom
10-02-2006, 11:48 AM
I have discovered new information that raises questions about the reliability of our witness. Her sincerity is not in question, just the truthfulness of her testimony.

Her information may still be of value, but it certainly means that much more needs to evaluated before any involvement by LE or the media is considered. It seems as if Doogie's caution was justified in this case, which should come as no surprise. Our responses told a lot about us, actually, whether hopeful, optimistic, pessimistic. Curiously, my reaction was fear...and it has taken all weekend to get over it. Planting five of the baby ferns from the Birthday mother fern helped.

mfmangel1
10-03-2006, 01:12 AM
It seems as if Doogie's caution was justified in this case, which should come as no surprise. Our responses told a lot about us, actually, whether hopeful, optimistic, pessimistic. Curiously, my reaction was fear...and it has taken all weekend to get over it. Planting five of the baby ferns from the Birthday mother fern helped.

Annasmom-

I believe we all had our guards up regarding this lead. I am so saddend that you were actually experiencing fear over this source of info.
Perhaps you knew best.
However, I know that no one here wishes to put you through any more negative emotions, so for that, I apologize. There has already been too much pain.
Hopefully we can move forward and the next lead will be a more positive
step toward finding Anna.

Annasmom
10-03-2006, 01:54 AM
I know that no one here wishes to put you through any more negative emotions, so for that, I apologize. There has already been too much pain.Hopefully we can move forward and the next lead will be a more positivestep toward finding Anna.Mfangel1, anything that might give us information is not painful, and I was afraid because I'm just a wimp. However, I have to tell you that knowing I have you all behind me makes me much braver (though still not as brave as Doogie.)
:blowkiss:

gardenmom
10-03-2006, 07:17 AM
Annasmom, I just wanted to let you know I still read here and think of you often. You are braver than you know, although I think Doogie is your Knight in Shining Armour.

SherlockJr
10-18-2006, 11:41 AM
I can't help but think that if Anna were taken by a couple that she would suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. As Annasmom quoted in an earlier post regarding the tipster from the newspaper article, some of the people involved may be dead. I also think Anna will come forward sometime after her captors have passed on if she still has memories from the age of 5.

In regards to the e-mail Dr Doogie received from woman who attended the Tulsa Community College, is there maybe a message board for graduates. Can we try and locate any teachers from the college who taught the art of massage? If this was taught at this school.

The person we are searching (Anna) could fit the description of someone dealing with issues of her identity.

Annasmom
10-18-2006, 12:38 PM
I can't help but think that if Anna were taken by a couple that she would suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. As Annasmom quoted in an earlier post regarding the tipster from the newspaper article, some of the people involved may be dead. I also think Anna will come forward sometime after her captors have passed on if she still has memories from the age of 5.
The person we are searching (Anna) could fit the description of someone dealing with issues of her identity.

We have spoken again at some length to the woman who believes she saw and spoke with Anna in fall of 1976 at a house barely 14 miles from where Anna disappeared. Although there are some discrepancies in the story, we believe this person is truthful and cannot entirely discount her belief. She says she never saw the little girl or the man who accompanied her after this one instance, but that she remembered the names and the scenario because it was so strange. She telephoned Doogie in response to the story in the Half Moon Bay Review. Much of what she says is found in the storyand there is no new hard evidence which we can follow to track Annaís whereabouts after this time. This witness believes a couple (possibly named ďBillĒ and ďMichelleĒ) took Anna from her home because they wanted a child. We have asked her to contact us if she remembers anything else which might help us, but we probably now have all she remembers, and then some. She seems to be a shy woman who wants to help and who has no agenda of her own in this matter. SherlockJr and Doogie are tracking two different time periods and situations related to the womanís story. Hope for the best.

Dr. Doogie
10-18-2006, 01:10 PM
The parts of the woman's story that can be verified have all proved to be true: who she is, the names of her relatives, where she went to high school, that she and her family owned many rental properties in San Mateo County. SherlockJr has also discovered that the woman is a licensed nurse with no disciplinary action against her, so that also tends to point out to her not being just some crazy person "jerking our chain". (It should be pointed out that George Waters was a doctor, yet he was still crazy, but his record showed a history of erractic behavior and ended with his license being revoked.)

One thing that she mentioned in this most recent conversation was that her father had also rented a house to Lawrence Singleton who was infamous as a rapist who kidnapped and chopped off the arms of a fifteen-year-old hitchhiker named Mary Vincent in the late 1970's. This is not related to Anna's disappearance (Singleton is not "Bill"), but this is another bit of data that can possibly be verified. I have not been able to locate any information on the internet that Singleton resided in San Mateo County in the 1970's - can any out there come up with this information? He would have probably lived in the cities of San Mateo, Redwood City or Mountain View. If we can verify this, it will add to the believability of other parts of her story that are not as easily verifiable.

Another part of her story that should be able to be confirmed is that there was a rash of home burglaries in her neighborhood during the the timeframe that she saw Anna (she believes that "Bill" was actually at her home to burglarize it). She mentioned at least one specific break-in on her street that should be easy to confirm. We are looking into verifying this rash of burglaries with local media/police records and should have an answer soon.

SherlockJr
10-18-2006, 01:13 PM
... This witness believes a couple (possibly named ďBillĒ and ďMichelleĒ) took Anna from her home because they wanted a child. We have asked her to contact us if she remembers anything else which might help us, but we probably now have all she remembers, and then some. She seems to be a shy woman who wants to help and who has no agenda of her own in this matter. SherlockJr and Doogie are tracking two different time periods and situations related to the womanís story. Hope for the best.
Another thing that is digging inside of me is that if this was Anna that was seen and spoken to in 1976, the person who took Anna somehow knew, or was an aquaintance of Anna's family.

rideforfun
10-18-2006, 01:48 PM
This woman sounds like she wants to be helpful. I think we should ask her if she would be willing to under go hypnosis with the objective of remembering additional detail. I'm not sure how much that would cost but I know there are experts who do this type of hypnosis and I would personally find the way to raise the money. It is our best lead and we should go for it from every angle. And, if Bill was stealing perhaps he might have been questioned by the police at some point and be in the sytem in some capacity.

SherlockJr
10-18-2006, 02:05 PM
This woman sounds like she wants to be helpful. I think we should ask her if she would be willing to under go hypnosis with the objective of remembering additional detail. I'm not sure how much that would cost but I know there are experts who do this type of hypnosis and I would personally find the way to raise the money. It is our best lead and we should go for it from every angle. And, if Bill was stealing perhaps he might have been questioned by the police at some point and be in the sytem in some capacity.
This certainly can be a direction to take after we can confirm the robberies and other information that she offered.

Mr. E
10-18-2006, 05:49 PM
This is certainly a long shot, especially as to the "how," but if a photograph or sketch of the woman in question ("Michelle") could be procured, perhaps Anna's brother could see if it resembles the woman who approached them on the road that day, the woman who seemed to be so interested in Anna.

Dr. Doogie
10-18-2006, 06:52 PM
Another part of her story that should be able to be confirmed is that there was a rash of home burglaries in her neighborhood during the the timeframe that she saw Anna (she believes that "Bill" was actually at her home to burglarize it). She mentioned at least one specific break-in on her street that should be easy to confirm. We are looking into verifying this rash of burglaries with local media/police records and should have an answer soon.
I was hoping that Marc Longpre (the reporter who wrote the article about Anna for the HMB Review) would be able to access the newspaper's archives to check the "Police Log" section of the paper to verify a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood in question. Unfortunately, the paper does not maintain archives that far back. He suggested that the local library probably has those papers on file. Sounds like another trip to HMB may in the near future...

Gina_M
10-18-2006, 10:45 PM
One thing that she mentioned in this most recent conversation was that her father had also rented a house to Lawrence Singleton who was infamous as a rapist who kidnapped and chopped off the arms of a fifteen-year-old hitchhiker named Mary Vincent in the late 1970's. This is not related to Anna's disappearance (Singleton is not "Bill"), but this is another bit of data that can possibly be verified. I have not been able to locate any information on the internet that Singleton resided in San Mateo County in the 1970's - can any out there come up with this information? He would have probably lived in the cities of San Mateo, Redwood City or Mountain View. If we can verify this, it will add to the believability of other parts of her story that are not as easily verifiable.
I've been searching the internet for info about Lawrence Singleton...so far all I can find is that he lived in Contra Costa County (city of San Pablo) at the time he kidnapped and tortured Mary Vincent (1978). After serving just 8 years in prison, he was paroled, but several counties refused to let him live within their borders. Eventually he moved back to Florida.

I'll keep searching...

ETA:

Singleton also had a residence in Nevada at the same time he lived in San Pablo. He was a retired merchant seaman, so maybe he moved around a lot. Perhaps he had multiple residences that no one knew about :waitasec:

mfmangel1
10-19-2006, 02:39 AM
Another thing that is digging inside of me is that if this was Anna that was seen and spoken to in 1976, the person who took Anna somehow knew, or was an aquaintance of Anna's family.
Hi Sherlock-

Have I missed something of great importance? What leads you to this conclusion?

SherlockJr
10-19-2006, 02:47 AM
Hi Sherlock-

Have I missed something of great importance? What leads you to this conclusion?
Hi Mfm, just from the conversation with the person who claims to have seen Anna. Really just a gut feeling. ;)

Dr. Doogie
10-19-2006, 11:22 AM
I've been searching the internet for info about Lawrence Singleton...so far all I can find is that he lived in Contra Costa County (city of San Pablo) at the time he kidnapped and tortured Mary Vincent (1978). After serving just 8 years in prison, he was paroled, but several counties refused to let him live within their borders. Eventually he moved back to Florida.

I'll keep searching...

ETA:

Singleton also had a residence in Nevada at the same time he lived in San Pablo. He was a retired merchant seaman, so maybe he moved around a lot. Perhaps he had multiple residences that no one knew about :waitasec:
It dawned on me after I made my initial post about Singleton that he may have resided in one of the father's rental homes after he was paroled. Singleton settled and then was run out of several towns after his release from prison, and the woman stated that her father had no problem with renting to parolees.

Gina_M
10-19-2006, 09:43 PM
Singleton attempted to rent a room at the Burlingame Hotel, which has rooms for short- and long-term residents, in 1987. The owner turned him away. Burlingame is in San Mateo County. All the other places he lived or attempted to live, that I can find, are in Contra Costa County. But, if he tried this hotel, he probably tried other places in San Mateo County too.

Annasmom
10-19-2006, 10:49 PM
Singleton attempted to rent a room at the Burlingame Hotel, which has rooms for short- and long-term residents, in 1987. The owner turned him away. Burlingame is in San Mateo County. All the other places he lived or attempted to live, that I can find, are in Contra Costa County. But, if he tried this hotel, he probably tried other places in San Mateo County too.Burlingame is virtually next door to the rental properties which came up in our tipster's statement. But why are we looking for this Singleton?

SherlockJr
10-20-2006, 12:01 AM
Burlingame is virtually next door to the rental properties which came up in our tipster's statement. But why are we looking for this Singleton?
Annasmom, I believe someone was trying to establish if Singleton lived in the area in the 1970's.

SherlockJr
10-20-2006, 12:07 AM
This is certainly a long shot, especially as to the "how," but if a photograph or sketch of the woman in question ("Michelle") could be procured, perhaps Anna's brother could see if it resembles the woman who approached them on the road that day, the woman who seemed to be so interested in Anna.
The woman today, who saw Anna, was in her teens 30 years ago. She only mentioned seeing "Bill" and "Anna" in her home.

Dr. Doogie
10-20-2006, 01:27 PM
...But why are we looking for this Singleton?
I am looking into Singleton only because the tipster mentioned that her father had rented to Singleton as an example of how he would rent to people of questionable character. Since this should be a verifiable fact (where Singleton lived), confirming it will help convince me in the truthfulness of the tipster.

Annasmom
10-20-2006, 05:23 PM
I am looking into Singleton only because the tipster mentioned that her father had rented to Singleton as an example of how he would rent to people of questionable character. Since this should be a verifiable fact (where Singleton lived), confirming it will help convince me in the truthfulness of the tipster.

Doogie, you and Sherlock are going to be proud of me. I just got home from a marathon reading session at the Half Moon Bay Library. I read all the 1976 issues of the Half Moon Bay Review, looking for burglaries in particular, and in fact the paper reported many burglaries from May to September of that year (the informant believes she saw a 47-year-old man with an eight-year-old girl some time between September and November of 1976.) No names of suspects in these cases were given, and there was no follow-up on the stories.
In the June 17 issue, Assistant Sheriff John Barker of the San Mateo County Sheriffís Department, commenting on Coastside burglaries, said ďI realize that police protection over there isnít as good as it should be, but getting more protection costs big bucks. We are working with the people on the north coast and are hoping to improve the protection over there."
In August, 1976, an important story appeared in the Review: ďFollowing an outcry by many residents of the coastside about Ďunsolved burglary cases,í the sheriffís office of San Mateo County on Monday opened a branch office at the Half Moon Bay Airport. The office has direct radio and telephone communication to sheriffís headquarters at Redwood City and is headed by Lt. Gerald Moerman, who served for many years as a detective and has worked on a number of coastside cases...Ē
ďThe greatest number of burglaries in the past two years have occurred on the coastside in the communities of El Granada, Montara and Moss Beach.Ē These are all unincorporated communities. The informant who believes she saw Anna in 1976 lived on a rural road between two of these communities. Her belief that the intruders with a little girl may have been burglars is justified (if not confirmed) by these news stories.
The August Review story continues, ďWith the new office on the coastside, some observers said that the number of Ďunsolved burglariesí will decrease because the sheriffís men can move more quickly to the scene of a crime from their new local base; also less time will be spent riding Ďto and fromí Redwood City.Ē
Only two other burglaries, both in El Granada, were reported in the Review in 1976 after the substation opened. Each burglary story in 1976 ends by stating that no suspects have been found.
I made copies of stories about burglaries which occurred near where our informant lives (from a microfiche machine probably as old as the tapes I was reading), but they add very little information to the above. The main point is that this aspect of the informantís story is credible.

rideforfun
10-20-2006, 05:42 PM
Excellent searching Annasmom. This is starting to really come together!! Any chance we can talk to some retired policemen who might be able to offer some personal insight into any suspects they had but couldn't charge???? Some of the police from that time must still be around!

Way to go. I believe we are getting closer to Anna everyday.

Dr. Doogie
10-20-2006, 05:46 PM
...The main point is that this aspect of the informantís story is credible.So far, every detail of her story that we have been able to verify one way or the other has proved factual. I am to the point that I believe we have to take her report of seeing Anna as truthful until we find specific evidence otherwise. (I still believe that some aspects of her story are embellished, but are built upon a foundation of the truth).

If this is truthful, that means that we are on the right track with the theory that Anna was abducted by a stranger and raised as his daughter. And that means that, at least in 1976, Anna was alive and healthy, which eliminates the possibilty that she was taken by a predator and was killed shortly after the abduction. No, she was alive, which means that she probably is still alive out there, ready to found.

Let's find her!
:woohoo:

Dr. Doogie
10-20-2006, 05:47 PM
Any chance we can talk to some retired policemen who might be able to offer some personal insight into any suspects they had but couldn't charge???? Some of the police from that time must still be around!
Great idea! I'll look into it.

SherlockJr
10-20-2006, 05:53 PM
Let's find her!
:woohoo:


We're all here with you Doogie & Annasmom!

SherlockJr
10-20-2006, 05:57 PM
Doogie, you and Sherlock are going to be proud of me. I just got home from a marathon reading session at the Half Moon Bay Library. I read all the 1976 issues of the Half Moon Bay Review, looking for burglaries in particular, and in fact the paper reported many burglaries from May to September of that year (the informant believes she saw a 47-year-old man with an eight-year-old girl some time between September and November of 1976.) No names of suspects in these cases were given, and there was no follow-up on the stories...
Burlaries reported between May to September. I find it odd they ended in September. (the time the witness saw Anna) Could they have left town soon after?

Annasmom
10-20-2006, 06:19 PM
We're all here with you Doogie & Annasmom!
I just love you guys.

I was in such a hurry to post the Review material that I neglected to include this story from June 10, 1976.
"Thieves who have been trucking away thousands of dollars worth of loot from isolated Coastside ranches during recent weeks hit the ranch of a San Francisco mortician and trucked away more than $6,300 worth of shop equipment. James L. Taylor, 53, who said he works several days at a time in San Francisco and then returns to his ranch on Lobitos Creek Road, reported to Sheriff's Deputy David R. Vogt that not only was his ranch burglarized, but a neighbor's as well."
Lobitos Creek Road is a stone's throw from Purisima Creek Road, where Anna disappeared.
The story continues: "Ranchers reported they have seen a blue flatbed truck in the area during the past few days when the burglaries took place. Vogt said Taylor's barn and ranchhouse were entered by burglars wearing gloves and using bolt cutters. He said they apparently knew exactly what they wanted."

itsreenw
10-20-2006, 08:49 PM
Doogie, can you get in touch with the tipster and ask if she'd be willing to meet with a sketch artist to do a composite of the man and girl?? Anybody know where we'd find a sketch artist if she says yes????

itsreenw
10-20-2006, 09:37 PM
excerpt from article about Lawrence Singleton:
Link http://www.salon.com/march97/news/news970305.html


on a cloudy Wednesday, Feb. 19, now 69-year-old Lawrence Singleton began his day by installing a drainpipe alongside his newly renovated home in the Orient Park neighborhood of east Tampa, Fla. He'd transformed the abandoned barracks his brother Herb bought him into a showplace. His yard was perfectly preened. He fastidiously wiped his cat's paw prints off neighbors' cars. "Bill," as Singleton called himself these days, brought steaks to neighbors and happily watched their kids play with Kala, his Rottweiler puppy. Down at the Brandon Crossroads Bowl, where Singleton was a regular in the Monday afternoon league, his fellow Golden Agers found him "a friendly guy," a good bowler, who'd stop by the snack bar for a midday beer.
Some of his bowling buddies heard he had a past -- a rape in California. "Bill" insisted he'd been "framed." Singleton seemed no more ominous than any other aging native son who returns to spend his last years at home and at peace.

I know it was determined that Bill and Michelle was not Lawrence Singleton and a companion but I just saw the name Bill and thought it was a coincidence.

Annasmom
10-20-2006, 10:02 PM
excerpt from article about Lawrence Singleton:
Link http://www.salon.com/march97/news/news970305.html

I know it was determined that Bill and Michelle was not Lawrence Singleton and a companion but I just saw the name Bill and thought it was a coincidence.That would have made him 47 or 47 in 1976, unless my arithmetic is completely off (which it sometimes is.) Our informant said Bill said his age was 47. Have we for sure ruled out this man?

gardenmom
10-20-2006, 10:23 PM
That would have made him 47 or 47 in 1976, unless my arithmetic is completely off (which it sometimes is.) Our informant said Bill said his age was 47. Have we for sure ruled out this man?
I sure hope so, Annasmom.

itsreenw
10-20-2006, 10:39 PM
I will try to find a picture of Singleton from the 70's but I'd really like the tipster to have her description of the pair Man/girl drawn as a composite before she sees the pic of Singleton so her memory isn't distorted.
I am also trying to find his CA addresses.
One thing to note-Singleton did have a van. I don't think it was him though. Seems he wouldn't be interested in little girls although he did tell Mary Vincent he had a daughter named Debra when he picked her up. He does not have a daughter named Debra. It could have been a lie to make her feel comfortable about riding with him. I think he told Mary his daughter was around her age.

SherlockJr
10-21-2006, 12:27 AM
I will try to find a picture of Singleton from the 70's but I'd really like the tipster to have her description of the pair Man/girl drawn as a composite before she sees the pic of Singleton so her memory isn't distorted.
I am also trying to find his CA addresses.
One thing to note-Singleton did have a van. I don't think it was him though. Seems he wouldn't be interested in little girls although he did tell Mary Vincent he had a daughter named Debra when he picked her up. He does not have a daughter named Debra. It could have been a lie to make her feel comfortable about riding with him. I think he told Mary his daughter was around her age.
If the tipster gave us the information that Singleton rented from her father, I would guess she would know what he looked like.

I found he did have a daughter.

SherlockJr
10-21-2006, 02:58 AM
That would have made him 47 or 47 in 1976, unless my arithmetic is completely off (which it sometimes is.) Our informant said Bill said his age was 47. Have we for sure ruled out this man?
According to SSDI, Lawrence Singleton was born on July 28, 1927 and died on Dec. 28, 2001. He would have been 49 years old in the fall of 1976.

Dr. Doogie
10-21-2006, 03:39 AM
Have we for sure ruled out this man?
I do not believe that Singleton is the same "Bill", but when I saw the same article that Itsreenw posted, I started looking into him. He did have a daughter named Debra Ann who is alive and well, working as pyschiatric nurse in Seattle, WA. Some of the facts that we know about her line up with what we suspect happened to Anna, but there appear to be legitimate birth records showing that Debra Ann was born in 1963 (which would be too much of a stretch to pass Anna of as this age, especially in her younger years). However, I would be more confident in this conclusion if we could find a picture of Debra Ann for comparison, but I have not located one yet.

Dr. Doogie
10-24-2006, 02:40 PM
It dawned on me that we have two potential areas of followup investigation on the tipster's information:

1) See if the SMC Sheriffs have any information about suspects in the rash of burglaries around HMB in 1976. If they questioned anyone named "Bill" or "William", then that may be a match.

2) The tipster thought that Bill may have been a tenant of her father. We know what houses he currently owns and it appears that they are the same addresses that he owned in 1976. I would like to see who lived in these houses in 1976 and see if there is a Bill and Michelle renting one of them in 1976. I have been trying to locate a Polk's City Directory for that area and time, but have not had any luck. The local San Mateo libraries do not have any. Anybody have any suggestions on how to find one?

Annasmom
10-24-2006, 03:29 PM
Doogie, can you get in touch with the tipster and ask if she'd be willing to meet with a sketch artist to do a composite of the man and girl?? Anybody know where we'd find a sketch artist if she says yes????
I just realized nobody had responded to this good idea. Sherlock found software which lets you create a mug shot, and at some point we might ask the tipster to try this. Two things: We don't want to burn her out, since she is under family pressure not to get involved. Second, we're still trying to check out things she has already said. To date, every little thing she has said checks out completely.

Shadow205
10-24-2006, 03:40 PM
It dawned on me that we have two potential areas of followup investigation on the tipster's information:

1) See if the SMC Sheriffs have any information about suspects in the rash of burglaries around HMB in 1976. If they questioned anyone named "Bill" or "William", then that may be a match.

2) The tipster thought that Bill may have been a tenant of her father. We know what houses he currently owns and it appears that they are the same addresses that he owned in 1976. I would like to see who lived in these houses in 1976 and see if there is a Bill and Michelle renting one of them in 1976. I have been trying to locate a Polk's City Directory for that area and time, but have not had any luck. The local San Mateo libraries do not have any. Anybody have any suggestions on how to find one?
This might be a good place to start http://www.oldtelephonebooks.com/pblink.html

itsreenw
10-26-2006, 11:44 PM
If the tipster gave us the information that Singleton rented from her father, I would guess she would know what he looked like.

I found he did have a daughter.I was trying to say that IMO, it would be best to do a composite based solely on what she visualzes from her memory rather than for her to see a picture now that may confuse her actual memory recall with what she sees in a picture. Good find on the daughter. I can't find much on him except the FL trial info.

SherlockJr
11-11-2006, 01:11 PM
I was trying to say that IMO, it would be best to do a composite based solely on what she visualzes from her memory rather than for her to see a picture now that may confuse her actual memory recall with what she sees in a picture. Good find on the daughter. I can't find much on him except the FL trial info.
Itsreenw has found a couple artists in California who has agreed to help us on Anna's behalf. I spoke with the tipster a few nights ago and she has agreed to meet with the artists to see if a composite can be made of both Bill and Anna.

Gina_M
11-11-2006, 05:47 PM
Itsreenw has found a couple artists in California who has agreed to help us on Anna's behalf. I spoke with the tipster a few nights ago and she has agreed to meet with the artists to see if a composite can be made of both Bill and Anna.
Yay!! That's good news :woohoo:

SherlockJr
11-28-2006, 01:35 PM
The woman today, who saw Anna, was in her teens 30 years ago. She only mentioned seeing "Bill" and "Anna" in her home.
The last conversation I had with the newspaper tipster corrected me and told me that she heard a woman's voice but never seen the woman appear at her bedroom door.

Annasbro
11-29-2006, 07:30 PM
Does anyone have access to Michigan plate designs from the late 60s? It would be interesting to compare those to what I remember from the sedan back before Anna's disappearance. Also - The white van. I keep thinking about that. It was mentioned by several people and in the original article from the 70s A white van would be typical for a construction person.A friend of ours that lived on the farm had purchased a van around the same time - he was a carpenter. I cannont remember the color. I think it might have been white. I would like to rule that out as the van in question. If the a white van was the vehicle of abduction however, and not the van of our friend, can we connect the prospective step father of C with a any particular vehicles - including a white van (he was a construction worker)?

MagicRose99
11-29-2006, 07:39 PM
Here's one from the late 50s early 60s...

http://www.ricksplates.com/LPimages/mi59pass.jpg

RobinH
11-29-2006, 07:41 PM
Does anyone have access to Michigan plate designs from the late 60s? It would be interesting to compare those to what I remember from the sedan back before Anna's disappearance. Also - The white van. I keep thinking about that. It was mentioned by several people and in the original article from the 70s A white van would be typical for a construction person.A friend of ours that lived on the farm had purchased a van around the same time - he was a carpenter. I cannont remember the color. I think it might have been white. I would like to rule that out as the van in question. If the a white van was the vehicle of abduction however, and not the van of our friend, can we connect the prospective step father of C with a any particular vehicles - including a white van (he was a construction worker)?
Annasbro, check out this website, it might help.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1151/SAMPLE-MI.html

Dr. Doogie
11-29-2006, 07:43 PM
Does anyone have access to Michigan plate designs from the late 60s? It would be interesting to compare those to what I remember from the sedan back before Anna's disappearance. Also - The white van. I keep thinking about that. It was mentioned by several people and in the original article from the 70s A white van would be typical for a construction person.A friend of ours that lived on the farm had purchased a van around the same time - he was a carpenter. I cannont remember the color. I think it might have been white. I would like to rule that out as the van in question. If the a white van was the vehicle of abduction however, and not the van of our friend, can we connect the prospective step father of C with a any particular vehicles - including a white van (he was a construction worker)?
I looked at Michigan plates and there is only one year that the colors matched up with what you saw: 1962. This would be unlikely since an 1962 vehicle would be substantially different from a late 1960's-early 1970's model.

This is new information about the van that the friend had - can you email or PM me any info about the friend (such as his name and how long he was there at the property)?

The construction worker in C's family is her "step-father". We are not sure of her "father's" profession, but she thinks it may have been as a truck driver.

MagicRose99
11-29-2006, 07:44 PM
OH! Here you go... check out THIS link; it has all the plates for 1960s Michigan:

http://www.worldlicenceplates.com/jpglps/USA_MI_GI6_1960's.jpg

Dr. Doogie
11-29-2006, 07:50 PM
I looked at Michigan plates and there is only one year that the colors matched up with what you saw: 1962.
In reviewing the site that MagicRose99 linked, the 1962 plate was also used through 1964 with a different tag designating 1963 or 1964.

Annasbro
11-29-2006, 08:06 PM
I can not rule out that the green and yellow plate was not the one. The white with green letters and the green with yellow letters both look like they could be the ones. It was a long time ago.

Dr. Doogie
11-29-2006, 08:17 PM
I could not tell you with 100% certainty what color the lettering is on my license plates right now, so the fact that you recall as much as you do is amazing.

Gina_M
11-29-2006, 09:18 PM
It is also possible that they could have already had the plates for a number of years, and then switched them onto a newer vehicle later. In California the plates seem to come with the vehicle, but in other states (at least the one I grew up in) you get the plates separately and can keep the plates if you sell your old car and buy a new one.

ETA:

As an example, my dad inherited a 1970s Buick from his grandfather, along with the vanity plates. When the car would no longer run, my dad sold it but kept the old plates. He then bought a 1990s model car and put his grandfather's old vanity plates on the new car. (This was in Illinois.) So a car and its plates can definitely be from different eras.

SherlockJr
12-19-2006, 01:37 AM
I got to thinking, which sometimes can be dangerous, whoever took Anna may not have gone back to their hometown and family. How would you explain having custody of a child especially one who is 5 yrs old? Just throwing in another idea, suppose the family had not seen the couple who took Anna and reported him/her missing. A woman was last seen by her father on June 1, 1972 is listed in the Doe network. http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1665dfca.html
Not sure if the link will bring up her page, you may have to do a search and use the number 1665dfca. This woman seems to fit Annasbro's description of the woman in the car. What all can we find out about this mystery woman?

mfmangel1
12-19-2006, 02:28 AM
There are two Antoinette Marinos in Cali:

ANTOINETTE MARINO (http://www.intelius.com/redir.php?qf=ANTOINETTE&qn=MARINO&qmi=&qc= LAKEWOOD&qs=CA&qa=&refer=1198&adword=background+check&searchform=background)
4638 VANGOLD AVE
LAKEWOOD, CA (http://www.zabasearch.com/redirects/addresslink_redir.php?a=4638 VANGOLD AVE&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA&z=90712) 90712 (http://www.zabasearch.com/frames/zaba_web_search.php?engine=zip-code&linktype=zipcode&zipcode=90712&sn=ANTOINETTE++MARINO&fn=ANTOINETTE&ln=MARINO&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA)


ANTOINETTE MARINO (http://www.intelius.com/redir.php?qf=ANTOINETTE&qn=MARINO&qmi=&qc= LAKEWOOD&qs=CA&qa=&refer=1198&adword=background+check&searchform=background)
5919 PEARCE AVE
LAKEWOOD, CA (http://www.zabasearch.com/redirects/addresslink_redir.php?a=5919 PEARCE AVE&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA&z=90712) 90712 (http://www.zabasearch.com/frames/zaba_web_search.php?engine=zip-code&linktype=zipcode&zipcode=90712&sn=ANTOINETTE++MARINO&fn=ANTOINETTE&ln=MARINO&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA)

It's a fairly unusual name.

I have to wonder if "C" would recognize her. I have been thinking of her so often lately. I am hoping she is happy in her new marriage and enjoying the holiday season.

SherlockJr
12-19-2006, 02:31 AM
There are two Antoinette Marinos in Cali:

ANTOINETTE MARINO (http://www.intelius.com/redir.php?qf=ANTOINETTE&qn=MARINO&qmi=&qc= LAKEWOOD&qs=CA&qa=&refer=1198&adword=background+check&searchform=background)
4638 VANGOLD AVE
LAKEWOOD, CA (http://www.zabasearch.com/redirects/addresslink_redir.php?a=4638 VANGOLD AVE&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA&z=90712) 90712 (http://www.zabasearch.com/frames/zaba_web_search.php?engine=zip-code&linktype=zipcode&zipcode=90712&sn=ANTOINETTE++MARINO&fn=ANTOINETTE&ln=MARINO&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA)


ANTOINETTE MARINO (http://www.intelius.com/redir.php?qf=ANTOINETTE&qn=MARINO&qmi=&qc= LAKEWOOD&qs=CA&qa=&refer=1198&adword=background+check&searchform=background)
5919 PEARCE AVE
LAKEWOOD, CA (http://www.zabasearch.com/redirects/addresslink_redir.php?a=5919 PEARCE AVE&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA&z=90712) 90712 (http://www.zabasearch.com/frames/zaba_web_search.php?engine=zip-code&linktype=zipcode&zipcode=90712&sn=ANTOINETTE++MARINO&fn=ANTOINETTE&ln=MARINO&c= LAKEWOOD&s=CA)

It's a fairly unusual name.

I have to wonder if "C" would recognize her. I have been thinking of her so often lately. I am hoping she is happy in her new marriage and enjoying the holiday season.
I found an exact match to her dob:

MARINO, AGNES (http://www.veromi.net/order.asp?1=AGNES;;;;MARINO;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;52227 7125;;&2=name&3=people&4=1&5=;;;;marino;;;;;;10;;18;;1942;;)64 AvailableAvailable(1)Available CLEARFIELD, PA


Almost choked on the street name

Dr. Doogie
12-19-2006, 12:40 PM
This is all very interesting. According to the missing poster, Antoinette Marino spent time in Big Sur in the late 1960's (about one hundred miles away from Half Moon Bay on the same highway).

Dr. Doogie
12-19-2006, 05:03 PM
We are finding some very interesting information concerning Antoinette Marino - stuff that fits nicely with the theory about the couple in the car, the information from the CA tipster and Mystery Woman C. Nothing concrete (yet), but we are moving forward quickly on this!

Dr. Doogie
12-19-2006, 08:43 PM
I have been in contact with a friend of the daughter of Antoinette Marino who is assisting the daughter in the search for her mother. The daughter was placed for adoption at age one (circmstances unknown at this time).

Here is where things get very interesting: "C" and the daughter share the same first name. C's middle name is "Antoinette", the same as the missing woman Marino. I am awaiting a response from the friend to discover if the middle name of the adoptee is also "Antoinette", which would mean that both C and the adoptee share the same first and middle name. On the adoption reunion site where we discovered the adoptee, the birth father's first name is listed as "Bill" (it turns out that subsequent to the posting on the reunion site, a DNA test was done between "Bill" and the adoptee and was negative, so Bill is not the adoptee's father).

We do know that Antoinette frequented the Salinas and Big Sur areas of Northern California (approximately 100 miles from Half Moon Bay on Highway 1). Annasbro says that Antoinette looks like what he remembers the woman in the car looking like (but cannot positively identify her). And that Antoinette has not been seen by her family since about seven months prior to Anna's disappearance which would fit into a scenario where she and a male accomplice were on the run with an abducted child.

My working hypothesis (based currently on speculation and coincidences) is that Marino may have felt that society "owed" her a daughter and took Anna as a replacement, giving her the same first and middle names as her actual daughter. It is possible (but unlikely) that Antoinette Marino is the same woman as C's "mother" (I am awaiting to hear if C recognizes the pictures of Marino). If she is not the same woman, it is still possible that somehow C was transfered from Marino's possesion to C's "parents". (Remember: The above paragraph is my speculation and is not based on any verifiable evidence. It is only presented so that we have an idea of one avenue of exploration!)

Hopefully, we will have additional information shortly that will help bolster or shoot down this hypothesis.

LinasK
12-20-2006, 04:36 AM
I have been in contact with a friend of the daughter of Antoinette Marino who is assisting the daughter in the search for her mother. The daughter was placed for adoption at age one (circmstances unknown at this time).

Here is where things get very interesting: "C" and the daughter share the same first name. C's middle name is "Antoinette", the same as the missing woman Marino. I am awaiting a response from the friend to discover if the middle name of the adoptee is also "Antoinette", which would mean that both C and the adoptee share the same first and middle name. On the adoption reunion site where we discovered the adoptee, the birth father's first name is listed as "Bill" (it turns out that subsequent to the posting on the reunion site, a DNA test was done between "Bill" and the adoptee and was negative, so Bill is not the adoptee's father).

We do know that Antoinette frequented the Salinas and Big Sur areas of Northern California (approximately 100 miles from Half Moon Bay on Highway 1). Annasbro says that Antoinette looks like what he remembers the woman in the car looking like (but cannot positively identify her). And that Antoinette has not been seen by her family since about seven months prior to Anna's disappearance which would fit into a scenario where she and a male accomplice were on the run with an abducted child.

My working hypothesis (based currently on speculation and coincidences) is that Marino may have felt that society "owed" her a daughter and took Anna as a replacement, giving her the same first and middle names as her actual daughter. It is possible (but unlikely) that Antoinette Marino is the same woman as C's "mother" (I am awaiting to hear if C recognizes the pictures of Marino). If she is not the same woman, it is still possible that somehow C was transfered from Marino's possesion to C's "parents". (Remember: The above paragraph is my speculation and is not based on any verifiable evidence. It is only presented so that we have an idea of one avenue of exploration!)

Hopefully, we will have additional information shortly that will help bolster or shoot down this hypothesis.
Doesn't that seven moths prior also fit into the time frame of C's "birth announcement" as I recall?

Dr. Doogie
12-21-2006, 01:50 PM
C has reviewed the pictures of Antoinette Marino and does not recognize the woman. This means that AM is not the woman that C knows as her mother.

The feedback that I am getting from the adoption search angel who is assisting AM's daughter is that AM is exactly the sort of person who could have taken a girl to replace her daughter. AM abandoned her daughter an the hospital at birth, then later was upset that CPS had placed the girl in foster care. AM made threatening phone calls to the foster parents about the daughter while in prison.

SherlockJr
12-21-2006, 02:36 PM
C has reviewed the pictures of Antoinette Marino and does not recognize the woman. This means that AM is not the woman that C knows as her mother.

The feedback that I am getting from the adoption search angel who is assisting AM's daughter is that AM is exactly the sort of person who could have taken a girl to replace her daughter. AM abandoned her daughter an the hospital at birth, then later was upset that CPS had placed the girl in foster care. AM made threatening phone calls to the foster parents about the daughter while in prison.
If Antoinette Marino had a history of drug and alcohol abuse, a
question to ask the adoptee's search angel if they have found any connection with the Synanon.

Dr. Doogie
01-24-2007, 02:17 PM
Just a quick note (I cannot say more than this): We have a possible lead on the "Bill" (the abductor) that the tipster spoke of. Needless to say, this is an exciting development!

smile22
01-24-2007, 06:18 PM
omg what an exciting lead i am on the edge of my seat waiting for any news i hope alot pans out from this

suzannej
01-28-2007, 01:18 PM
The lady whom was 17 at the time when she said she saw Anna with a Bill said that Anna was prononced more with an A , I have listened to your Radio broadcast and noticed that you pronounce Anna differantly to that of the English .Could Bill be from another state? and if so what state ?She obviously remembers this very clearly to remember it .
The other thing is Anna stated that the women (bills wife ??)couldnt have children , could there be any connection with the georges being docters and fertility treatment ?
Hope there not stupid questions .

Annasmom
01-28-2007, 02:39 PM
The lady whom was 17 at the time when she said she saw Anna with a Bill said that Anna was prononced more with an A , I have listened to your Radio broadcast and noticed that you pronounce Anna differantly to that of the English .Could Bill be from another state? and if so what state ?She obviously remembers this very clearly to remember it .
The other thing is Anna stated that the women (bills wife ??)couldnt have children , could there be any connection with the georges being docters and fertility treatment ?
Hope there not stupid questions .Suzanne, welcome to the forum. It's great to have someone from the other side of the Atlantic looking at the case. We have always pronounced Anna's name with a broad A (as in "Swan"), but it's a good catch that the woman who believes she saw Anna in 1976 pronounced it the way we do. I am not sure whether this informant had heard DrDoogie say the name. I don't think there's any connection with fertility treatment, which is pretty specialized. GW just worked in emergency rooms and never specialized beyond being a general practicioner. However, the idea that a woman who wanted children might have been involved in Anna's abduction comes up again and again. Thanks for the invitation for a cuppa!

Dr. Doogie
03-23-2007, 12:14 PM
An interesting synchronicity has been uncovered that may or may not be related to Anna's disappearance. There is another thread on WS concerning Rose Cole, a sixteen year old girl who disappeared out of the Synanon organization about the same time as Anna's disappearance. It is unknown if she ran away from the drug treatment facility or met with foul play.

Of particular interest is the postmark of her last correspondence with her family: January 16, 1973, sent from San Francisco. The letter had been written in December 23, 1972 and was sent on this later date. The December date would align with the first sighting of the "couple in the car", while the postmark matches the date that Anna disappeared. Recall that SherlockJr hypothesised that the abducter could also be listed as a missing person - this would allow them to avoid explaining how they "added" a new daughter to the family. Also, the description of the woman could match Rose's description (except that Rose was younger than Annasbro's recollection).

There is a possible link to George Waters two ways: GW was attempting to work in the drug/alcohol rehab sector at a time when Synanon was the largest player in that fiels, and Rose had been treated for a kidney infection at a free clinic in San Francisco shortly before she disappeared - exactly the sort of place where GW worked (it is unknown which facility she went to).

This is probably just coincidence, but seems worthy of further examination. Any thoughts that you all have would be appreciated.

SherlockJr
03-23-2007, 12:49 PM
This is certainly an unexpected discovery you found here connecting Rose Cole to Anna's case. I'm sure Rose's last letter to her family is posted somewhere either here or at MySpace. I think I've come across it at one time. Several months back, I received a PM from a member requesting that I join in the search for Rose. I declined only for the reason that Anna's case is so complicated and being involved in other cases would confuse my cluttered mind. Perhaps spending the time to read the Rose Cole thread might find a connection. Has Annasbro seen a picture of Rose?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
03-23-2007, 01:08 PM
The letter from Rose was dated 12-23-72, but not mailed until 2-73 because she didn't have a stamp. There was a postcard also sent, but the dates are unclear. At one point Roses step sister said it was dated 1-18-73 (I found from doing a thread search a few minutes ago) and a few days ago when I inquired she said the date was 1-16-73. Also, there must have been one more letter written later in 73 that said she was in China town and had a kidney infection. This info was not on the post card, nor the letter dated 12-23-72 but in another letter the step mom remembers receiving a few months later in 73, (no one seems to know what happened to it). Hope that clears things up, though I'm still not convinced these 2 girls didn't fall into the same hands. Could very well be one of those Steve Stayner abduction stories where an older abducted helps to abduct a younger child.

Dr. Doogie
03-23-2007, 01:43 PM
Has Annasbro seen a picture of Rose?

Not yet.

Shadow205
03-23-2007, 07:17 PM
Well now that you have brought the possibilty up that brings the whole Synanon thing back into the picture again. It also IMO brings the little girl in the picture back to the forefront again. Sorry, but I was never convinced that the little girl was not Anna. Everyone else seemed to accept whoever it was that said that they knew who that little girls parents were. I didn't but since the majority did I just let it drop.


http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_AWaters2.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_Croppedlittlegirl.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_boxes.jpg

:truce:

Annasmom
03-23-2007, 07:38 PM
Well now that you have brought the possibilty up that brings the whole Synanon thing back into the picture again. It also IMO brings the little girl in the picture back to the forefront again. Sorry, but I was never convinced that the little girl was not Anna. Everyone else seemed to accept whoever it was that said that they knew who that little girls parents were. I didn't but since the majority did I just let it drop.


http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_AWaters2.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_Croppedlittlegirl.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_boxes.jpg

:truce: That child does look a lot like Anna, but I thought someone actually identified her (him) as a little boy named Christian whose parents were in Synanon.

Dr. Doogie
03-23-2007, 07:41 PM
Well now that you have brought the possibilty up that brings the whole Synanon thing back into the picture again. It also IMO brings the little girl in the picture back to the forefront again. Sorry, but I was never convinced that the little girl was not Anna. Everyone else seemed to accept whoever it was that said that they knew who that little girls parents were. I didn't but since the majority did I just let it drop.


http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_AWaters2.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_Croppedlittlegirl.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_boxes.jpg

:truce:

You are right, it does raise that possibility again. With some of the suggestions that we have received, if nothing quickly comes up to help support it, we have let them drop by the wayside and moved on to other possibilities. This may have been a mistake.

I hope no one has been offended if a suggestion seems to get the "short shrift" - it is only that at certain points something comes up that is judged more promising at that time, only to be forgotten by the time we can get back to it. Everybody please understand: I value each suggestion and hope that each of you continue to add your ideas.

InterestedNHelping
03-23-2007, 08:00 PM
I read on the Synanon site, in the guestbook, that someone was "dropped off" as a kid, not actually a member there...why did they take-in' kids that were "dropped off'? Just curious if a child could be 'left' there.

Shadow205
03-23-2007, 08:05 PM
You are right, it does raise that possibility again. With some of the suggestions that we have received, if nothing quickly comes up to help support it, we have let them drop by the wayside and moved on to other possibilities. This may have been a mistake.

I hope no one has been offended if a suggestion seems to get the "short shrift" - it is only that a certain points something comes up that is judged more promising at that time, only to be forgotten by the time we can get back to it. Everybody please understand: I value each suggestion and hope that each of you continue to add your ideas.

Oh dear me, I think I came accross all wrong in that last post. We often have different views which makes this whole thing work. I just meant that I wasn't going to beat a dead horse about the little girl at Syananon if no one else thought that it could be our Anna. I didn't give up on my thoughts that it could be her but I wasn't going to keep harping on it.

SherlockJr
03-24-2007, 01:14 AM
Well now that you have brought the possibilty up that brings the whole Synanon thing back into the picture again. It also IMO brings the little girl in the picture back to the forefront again. Sorry, but I was never convinced that the little girl was not Anna. Everyone else seemed to accept whoever it was that said that they knew who that little girls parents were. I didn't but since the majority did I just let it drop.


http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_AWaters2.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_Croppedlittlegirl.jpg



I went back to read my e-mails from last April from people who lived at Synanon. They had several people look at the photo of this girl and all believe her name is that of the name on her overalls. Looking up the birth of this child, she was born in 1971. If I remember, the Synanon listed this picture from 1974 which would put this child at the age of 3. She looks older than 3 yrs old.

SherlockJr
03-24-2007, 01:30 AM
I found a marriage record for the teenager. She was married in San Rafael, Marin County in March 1975.

mfmangel1
03-24-2007, 03:19 AM
This is certainly an unexpected discovery you found here connecting Rose Cole to Anna's case. I'm sure Rose's last letter to her family is posted somewhere either here or at MySpace. I think I've come across it at one time. Several months back, I received a PM from a member requesting that I join in the search for Rose. I declined only for the reason that Anna's case is so complicated and being involved in other cases would confuse my cluttered mind. Perhaps spending the time to read the Rose Cole thread might find a connection. Has Annasbro seen a picture of Rose?

I recall reading Rose's letter, too.
I remember there were many troubling things in it. That poor child just wanted to be at home with her family.
What I didn't remember were the many references to "the baby".
I am posting the letter below....I don't think it will fit in here!

mfmangel1
03-24-2007, 03:22 AM
3:00 AM December 23, 1972

[Itís almost been a whole stinking, lousy year!]


[Sorry but I just got a stamp! ~ Feb 3, 1973]



Dear Mom,

I love you, oh mom what am I going to do! I canít sleep no more at nites, I wake up from dreams, that leaves me frights.

I dream of you, and Daddy and Billy and Pose, and Jesse and Norma, I know its weird and sounds silly! I dream of being home, but wake up, and what happens, Iím all alone!

I am so scare out here,
I donít like the atmosphere!
I walk the streets,
Oh God, if you knew the people I met.
Mom, I wanna come home,
Please understand, please!

If I thought you loved me, it would
put me being uptight, to ease!
Mom, I donít know what to do!
All I can think of is you!
Mom, have you ever been lonely,
didnít have no family to go to,
because they all hate you! Walk
streets, wondering what street to
take, know you donít care, because
at least youíll be going
somewhere, and whatever street
what difference does it makes.

I listen to different songs,
most make me feel like I donít
belong. I feel so sad and blue,
I just want to make you guys
love me, as much as I love
you. I wish I could make you
see. Love me! Please, Mom,
Please love me! Oh God
love me, love me! please
love me! I can even go
to sleep at nites no-more. I
dream of one time, I was
walking down the street with my
suitcases, and Jesse and James
Hamilton was getting ready to
Get on the bus to Michigan and
I saw him, and I dropped my
suitcase, and I was so happy to
see him, and was crying, and
ran up to just hug him, and
I yelled Jesse, and he turned
Around and saw me, and I
Was getting ready to hug him, and
He said I hate you, Rose , I
hate your guts. He said donít
ever come home again,
youíve caused enough trouble,
and we all hate your guts so much,
we donít ever want to here from you.

Then he got on the bus and looked
out the window, and I just stare at
him, and cried so hard, I didnít think
I had anymore tears, and he just sat at
the window and cracked up laughing,
then mudged James and said something,
and James and Jesse waved there hand,
like get away you no Ė good Brad, and
they laughed and laughed.



I have a lot dream of the baby. I dream
of playing with him. I dreamed one time,
that I have to come home and Daddy was
the only one there, you guys was at Billyís
and me and Daddy hugged, and kiss and stuff.
I was so glad to see him, and he took me where
you guys were at and I couldnít wait to get inside.


I got out of the car and ran inside, and Pose was
looking out the door, and he opened it, and said
Rose youíre home finally, and we hugged and
Pose yelled, Rose is home and you came running
out and we hugged and hugged and we cried. And
then Norma came and said Rose I missed you so
much, I canít wait to call Claire, and we hugged,
and then I said whereís Billy, because heís who I
wanted to see so much. And you said he went to
pick up the baby, so then sat, and I never, felt so
good in my life, never. To bad it was only a dream.


Too bad, then I heard the car outside. I looked
out the window, and I saw Billy carry a big fat
baby in a bunch of blankets, then I donít know
why but I was so happy, I mean righteously happy,
tears just poured and poured, and then I ran to the
door, and you said, Rose, take it easy, sit down in
the kitchen, and donít let him know youíre here.
He came in and took the baby and said whereís Rose?
I ran to him and hugged and he said your finally home.
I didnít want to let go and I heard the baby cry. I reached
out to him and he wanted me. It was like he loved me
and as I held him he smiled. We had dinner and I
never wanted to leave. I love everyone so much.


I woke up and then I tried to get back to sleep. But it was gone, what I wouldnít do to have another dream like that. Now all I ever dream is you guys laughing at me. If you guys hate me all I can say is I donít blame you. I understand but I just want you to know I love you. Iím used to going off by myself and crying, and itís not hard for me.

Hereís a poem for you.


Stars! Stars are bright,
Stars give off light.
Stars make your love scene bright.
Stars shine and look brand new.
They refuse to come out when the skyís blue!
They must like the night black.
Must bring good memories back.
I love the stars.
They get attention even though they are so far.


With all my love, your daughter, R. L. C



Itís not much, I know, but itís a little.
Mom I wish I could get you guys to love me.
Give a hoot, donít pollute!


Todayís my birthday,
so what is all I can say.


Iím 16 but Iím the same sad and cold.


Iím to blame I look like I did before.


Like I got hit in the face with a door.


I walk like I did before inherited it, my Momís to blame.


I donít yet have strength,

my feet have the same length.


My legs are long, my stomachís in outer space.


They need to belong, same old neck and ears.


Lonely tears and I live the way it appears.


In this funky big atmosphere.


God why canít anyone see Iím not living.


Iím dying.


Thereís all kinds of people mean and cruel.


Too bad we canít combine.


Understanding and kindness would keep you happy.


Never push you from behind.


Lonely people I respect,


I consider myself a lonely aspect.


Black and white wanting to fight.


High class trip disrespect.


Might consider themselves one of us.


Why canít they make one more friend?


Here I am in here, feeling sad and blue.

Drinking water wondering what to do.


Feel the walls creep close to me?


They donít want me to be.


Iím the only one there,


roomís full of chatter and laughter.


Why does it always have to happen to me?


Maybe itís something in me that you see and hate.


Why canít they see I want to be understood.


Push me away because Iím shy.


Thatís what they think,


donít understand why.


Rose Cole

Cubby
05-01-2007, 08:13 PM
Quote:


Originally Posted by Shadow205 http://websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1395892#post1395892)
Well now that you have brought the possibilty up that brings the whole Synanon thing back into the picture again. It also IMO brings the little girl in the picture back to the forefront again. Sorry, but I was never convinced that the little girl was not Anna. Everyone else seemed to accept whoever it was that said that they knew who that little girls parents were. I didn't but since the majority did I just let it drop.


http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_AWaters2.jpghttp://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/shadow205/th_Croppedlittlegirl.jpg




I've been thinking about this synanon picture while we've been waiting the last few weeks. Not only comparing the above photo, but several of the others posted in various places of Anna. After looking at them closer, I tend to think this little girl from Synanon is not Anna. In all the pictures I have seen of Anna, it appears she has a larger right earlobe than the girl in the synanon picture. jmo..... though.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-01-2007, 10:46 PM
Quote:


I've been thinking about this synanon picture while we've been waiting the last few weeks. Not only comparing the above photo, but several of the others posted in various places of Anna. After looking at them closer, I tend to think this little girl from Synanon is not Anna. In all the pictures I have seen of Anna, it appears she has a larger right earlobe than the girl in the synanon picture. jmo..... though.

I feel the same way about "C" but in regards to the eye orbits. Anna appeared to have a "puffy" top eye lid. "C" does not. I've known a few people from birth with the same type of eye orbit, and neither ever lost that puffyness into adulthood. That's why I don't feel "C" is Anna. I'm also surprised that such a charctoristic was not prevalent in the age enhanced photo of Anna. That is pretty much an inherited thing, (In the case of my friends it was distant relatives who shared the common eye orbit.)

Cubby
05-01-2007, 11:00 PM
I feel the same way about "C" but in regards to the eye orbits. Anna appeared to have a "puffy" top eye lid. "C" does not. I've known a few people from birth with the same type of eye orbit, and neither ever lost that puffyness into adulthood. That's why I don't feel "C" is Anna.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the area directly beneath the eyebrow extending down to the lid directly over the eye? I took a look at the pics again after reading your post, and wonder if difficulty seeing that would be due to eye makeup. I know makeup, especially in the eye area can really change the way the eyes look. I think the hardest thing I notice with the pic of C and pictures of Anna is the shape of the upper cheek bones. That area on Anna seems to be more recessed, for a lack of a better word and it's difficult to tell if C's eyes have the same downward slant as the outside of Anna's eyes. You can see what I am talking about seeing it in GW's pic with Anna as a newborn in Annasmoms manuscript. He has that same set of cheekbones.

dbradford04
08-14-2007, 02:48 PM
I guess I could ask him directly, but has Annasbro ever offered to go under hypnosis to try and revisit this scene?

SherlockJr
08-21-2007, 07:42 AM
This is new information about the van that the friend had - can you email or PM me any info about the friend (such as his name and how long he was there at the property)?

This is interesting. Did anyone follow-up with this information?

Dr. Doogie
02-10-2008, 03:52 PM
In the late 1970's, Anna's family hired a private investigator named Josiah "Tink" Thompson to investigate the two Georges and the possibility of their involvement. As with LE, he concluded that they were odd enough to have done this, but no evidence could be found link them to Anna's disappearance/abduction. In our recent investigation, we have uncovered personal papers that seem to indicate both a motive for Anna to disappear (removing her as a potenial heir to Water's estate) and seemingly a foreknowledge of events that occured in January 1973 (the "Plan" note). Both LE's and Tink's analyses were qualified based on a lack of evidence, but that lack of evidence has been overcome by what we have discovered recently, so what we are left with is that the two Georges were odd enough to have done this AND evidence does exist linking them to her disappearance.

I am currently reading a non-fiction book authored by Tink about his early adventures as a private investigator titled "Gumshoe". Though the events in the book take place during the period that he was working for Anna's family, it does not mention any of the events involving Anna.

In the book, he does detail a case where he was involved in the "snatching" of a young girl who had been illegally taken from her mother by the non-custodial father. He refers to this sort of case (where a P.I. snatches a child back from a parent who does not legally have custody) as a "seam" job. He explains that the P.I. must determine that when a child is not in the immediate control of the parent or some other adult, then time his snatching to occur during this "seam" between two "fabrics" of adult supervision. He uses the example of a child who is dropped off by a driver in front of a school, who then walks into the school building and into class. That brief period between when the child leaves the bus and before the child is in the classroom as the "seam" - where the child is most vulnerable to being snatched.

If the above information makes you a little squeamish, remember that Tink is referring to cases that he was involved with returning a child to the proper custodial parent. Obviously, this is not the case when it comes to Anna. But, the technique used by whoever took Anna seems to echo what Tink describes. There was only a small window of opprtunity to find Anna outside of the immediate control of a parent or an adult (the "seam") and the abductor(s) found it. Even the incident with the couple in the car somwewhat fits this pattern: Anna, away from her parents, but with her two teenage brothers may have seemed to be the closest that the couple could find and they attempted to exploit this seam. When the brothers did not fall for the ruse, the couple left - likely to wait for a better seam to occur.

Which raises a possibility: were the couple in the car merely a couple searching for a daughter for their family, or could they have been professionals utilizing the same techniques that Tink describes? Tink expresses the moral quandries and outlines the legal and ethical rationalizations that he went through prior to becoming involved in such activities. Other professionals may not have been so ethical. Waters certainly earned enough to afford hiring a team to accomplish this task and Brody had plenty of cash stuffed away in a safe-deposit box to pay for such a endeavor. Brody may have viewed this as an investment necessary to secure the greater payoff of fully receiving Waters's inheritance.

smile22
02-11-2008, 08:42 AM
if they both had outside help like the couple in the car or some other people if they were young at the time then someone must be alive and knows this info but wont come forward with it. Are they scared? were those people just helping brody and waters so they eventualy anna would be placed in a childless couples home?. didn't his book that he have said he logged in so many miles at one point if we assume he was in California at the time. did anyone look into where he would have ended up traveling those milles if he was doing it in 1-2day period?

InterestedNHelping
02-11-2008, 10:34 AM
Question here, if Annasbro saw these folks, has he ever looked at photos like Tim Binder, or like suspect couple drawings similar to the ones on DoeNetwork, of missing children around that time? There are pics of couples there, and maybe something would jog his memory?

InterestedNHelping
02-11-2008, 10:49 AM
Another (harder) but also relevant idea, is that of the 'missing women' from that time on the california DOJ site. It is entirely possible that IF Anna was taken, this person or people, might also have disappeared into oblivion, and their families are also looking for them. I have seen a couple of women pics in the past, of these missing women, and any one of them could be the 'woman', but how to trace them is another story.

InterestedNHelping
02-11-2008, 11:09 AM
I was rereading this thread from the beginning, and found that the tipster who may have seen Anna with 'Bill', was GOING TO DO a sketch with an artist, but then the "C" issue came up, and it seems as though this never happened. Did the tipster actually do the sketch with the artist, or did the idea get dropped? It seems that if all of her story was credible, this needs to be done.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
02-11-2008, 11:12 AM
...snipped ...

Which raises a possibility: were the couple in the car merely a couple searching for a daughter for their family, or could they have been professionals utilizing the same techniques that Tink describes? Tink expresses the moral quandries and outlines the legal and ethical rationalizations that he went through prior to becoming involved in such activities. Other professionals may not have been so ethical. Waters certainly earned enough to afford hiring a team to accomplish this task and Brody had plenty of cash stuffed away in a safe-deposit box to pay for such a endeavor. Brody may have viewed this as an investment necessary to secure the greater payoff of fully receiving Waters's inheritance.

Sounds like an interesting book Doogie. I'll have to see if our Library has it. I just have a few general comments...mosty thinking out loud.

If I remember correctly, several months ago we were having an active discussion about where the couple of the car fit into Anna's disappearance. It was this discussion that ultimately lead to Annasmoms memory of Waters phone call to Evelyn Wanek after Brody had died. (which was so awesome!) In that discussion I was offering another theory that possibly the couple in the car where just holiday makers sight seeing while home for Christmas break. Possibly just an innocent friendly gesture to give the kids a lift to the canyon. Times where different in 1973, and people in my area would regularly offer rides without a second thought...(Just an idea, nothing to back it up)

With that said, there could be several possibilities with this couple, (or 3 people, Annasbro is not totally positive how many people were in the car according to previous posts).

1. Childless couple randomly looking for a young daughter, then moved on. (split seam)
2. Childless couple randomly staking out the area and spotted a child to abduct later.
3. Professional kidnappers hired by the Georges. (What did they do with her?)
4. Innocent, friendly college students offering kids a ride.
5. Childless, (or Daughterless) couple who PAID the Georges for a child. (Cash hidden in a safe deposit box(?), :waitasec: )

1 & 2 seem highly unlikely considering this was a remote area, unless it was someone who knew of the family. 3. is hard for me to grasp because of the money hoarding personality of Brody, (but you never know). 4. is a 50/50 chance either way. 5. Seems like a pretty possible scenario.

I wonder if the unclaimed property of Brody is the original cash? (probably not) Finger prints can be lifted off paper money & coins.

ETA: The couple in the car could have been #5, but the plan was carried out by #3 (men in the van) when #5 were unable to pursade Anna into the car. #5 might have been responcible for paying #3 and the Georges.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
02-11-2008, 11:21 AM
I was rereading this thread from the beginning, and found that the tipster who may have seen Anna with 'Bill', was GOING TO DO a sketch with an artist, but then the "C" issue came up, and it seems as though this never happened. Did the tipster actually do the sketch with the artist, or did the idea get dropped? It seems that if all of her story was credible, this needs to be done.

Good idea INH, I had forgotten about that. A sketch could prove to be very helpful. Annasmom also met a "Bill" which she recalled in her personal diary. No one is sure if they are one in the same. If both Bills could be sketched, and then compared that might just answer many questions!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
02-11-2008, 11:27 AM
if they both had outside help like the couple in the car or some other people if they were young at the time then someone must be alive and knows this info but wont come forward with it. Are they scared? were those people just helping brody and waters so they eventualy anna would be placed in a childless couples home?. didn't his book that he have said he logged in so many miles at one point if we assume he was in California at the time. did anyone look into where he would have ended up traveling those milles if he was doing it in 1-2day period?

This might answer part of your question. The miles put on Waters car were logged in 1971, and stopped about a year before Annasmom and Joe and children actually moved to the farm. Annasmom said prior to their bus trip, they lived fairly close to Waters.

Cubby
02-11-2008, 01:42 PM
Great idea about the sketch of the "Bill's" and reviewing suspect sketches from Doenetwork. Also, it's been suggested a few times that Annasbro undergo hypnosis. I recall a few months ago his schedule was pretty overloaded, where might things stand on this now?

Also, regarding Doogie's post. I've given this thought frequently. It's my opinion whoever took Anna was familiar with the family or familiar with the daily going ons in the immediate area. Someone had to know Anna attended morning kindergarten and some idea of the family schedule, when the boys got home from school. The area and weather that rainy Tuesday, especially if the weather in other immediate area's where much worse the farm, they had to know... Why else pick this particular rainy Tuesday to take Anna? Presumably they may have known Joe Fords schedule and assumed he would have worked a full day and he had work in the immediate area? A random stranger abduction seems out of place, at least for me, due to the weather.

I have no idea how to check this, but I have often wondered if the George's may have come upon a family for Anna through is medical profession. Are any of GW's coworkers known and if so, have any of them ever been interviewed? Perhaps they recall something that just didn't sit well.

Annasmom
02-11-2008, 02:41 PM
Great idea about the sketch of the "Bill's" and reviewing suspect sketches from Doenetwork. Also, it's been suggested a few times that Annasbro undergo hypnosis. I recall a few months ago his schedule was pretty overloaded, where might things stand on this now?


Cubby, I tried to send you a PM and was told that your inbox is full.

Cubby
02-11-2008, 03:19 PM
Cubby, I tried to send you a PM and was told that your inbox is full.


Cleared out some of my old PM's. Should be good now Annasmom.

Cubby
04-15-2009, 10:21 PM
In light of the recent case briefing on Anna's case in the Astro forum pointing to the couple in the car I am bumping this thread.

What immediately struck me as odd, was why would the couple initially approach Anna while she was with her two older brothers? It makes no sense to me-unless they were planning on abducting all three children- which still makes no sense to me.

However, I do vaguelly recall a post from Dr. Doogie answering a question from another poster if Annasbro had seen a pic of a female suspect on a missing persons case listed at Doe. I can not recall who the missing person was, or where that reply from Dr. Doogie was. Anyone else remember this? Can we find it and possibly do some more research on that mystery woman who Annasbro said was a dead on sketch of his memory of the female from the couple in the car? I also recall from Doogies reply the decision was made not to pursue that angle because there was no proof that the mystery couple in the car were involved in Anna's disappearance.

Someone has to remember this beside me.

Julessleuther
04-16-2009, 01:46 AM
I don't know where to find it, but wasn't it Rose Cole?
In light of the recent case briefing on Anna's case in the Astro forum pointing to the couple in the car I am bumping this thread.

What immediately struck me as odd, was why would the couple initially approach Anna while she was with her two older brothers? It makes no sense to me-unless they were planning on abducting all three children- which still makes no sense to me.

However, I do vaguelly recall a post from Dr. Doogie answering a question from another poster if Annasbro had seen a pic of a female suspect on a missing persons case listed at Doe. I can not recall who the missing person was, or where that reply from Dr. Doogie was. Anyone else remember this? Can we find it and possibly do some more research on that mystery woman who Annasbro said was a dead on sketch of his memory of the female from the couple in the car? I also recall from Doogies reply the decision was made not to pursue that angle because there was no proof that the mystery couple in the car were involved in Anna's disappearance.

Someone has to remember this beside me.

Cubby
04-16-2009, 02:16 AM
I don't know where to find it, but wasn't it Rose Cole?


No, it wasn't Rose Cole. IIRC it was a sketch of an (unknown?) female suspect-or wanted for question- in relation to a missing persons case. Annasbro had described the females shirt/blouse and said she had long black hair. When shown the sketch he said it was a dead ringer or something like that. IIRC there were sketches for both a male and female suspect.

SherlockJr
04-16-2009, 08:38 AM
I think you may be referring to Antoinette Marino. A woman who went missing in CA the summer of 72. If I remember right it was after we brought up Antoinette's name that we found an adoptee who claimed to be the daughter of the missing Marino. Actually all e-mails were exchanged with her search angel and not with the adoptee. Our theory was... when Marino was released from prison, she could not find her daughter who had been adopted out while she was incarcerated. The adoptive family moved. Marino made her way north to HMB found Anna who resembled her daughter with blonde curly hair and the right age and took her. I found Marino married a couple times and last was living in Florida. We never heard back from the search angel if contact was ever made.

Dr. Doogie
04-16-2009, 01:58 PM
SherlockJr is correct - it was Marino.

What made the theory all that more interesting is that it was being looked at similtanuously as things were heating up with "Mystery Woman C". C's first name is "Christina" - the same name as Marino's daughter and C's middle name is "Anntoinette" - the same as Marino's first name. Marino disappeared about six months prior to Anna's disappearance.

As Sherlockjr described above, our theory was that Marino may have felt that society "owed her a daughter" and grabbed Anna to replace her own. Then at some later time, she may have dumped Anna with someone else but left her with the names "Christina Antoinette" and that was C.

When the DNA tests showed that C was not Anna, the Marino angle was abandoned.

Cubby
04-16-2009, 08:00 PM
thank you Sherlock and Dr. Doogie. I did find the info on Marino very late last night and saw that angle was abandoned. Maybe I am mixing this up with the sketch of the possibile perp from the Michaela G missing persons case. Was there not a sketch of a man and woman who were seen around a missing child that Annasbro looked at and said the sketch resembled the woman in the car? Again, I could be completely mixing up the two as I read them so long ago.

thanks!

raindrops300
04-17-2009, 12:09 AM
........ However, I do vaguelly recall a post from Dr. Doogie answering a question from another poster if Annasbro had seen a pic of a female suspect on a missing persons case listed at Doe. I can not recall who the missing person was, or where that reply from Dr. Doogie was. Anyone else remember this? Can we find it and possibly do some more research on that mystery woman who Annasbro said was a dead on sketch of his memory of the female from the couple in the car? I also recall from Doogies reply the decision was made not to pursue that angle because there was no proof that the mystery couple in the car were involved in Anna's disappearance.

Someone has to remember this beside me.

I do remember this also. And IIRC it wasn't the Marino photo. It involved sketches of a couple and I remember the part about the woman's shirt collar and black hair looking familiar to Anna's brother. But I don't know where in this forum it was. I'm going to go look for it.
Also it seems like the sketch was of a couple that was suspected in a child abduction in another case about the same time, but was brought onto this forum because of the 'couple' thing.

Cubby
04-17-2009, 01:22 AM
I do remember this also. And IIRC it wasn't the Marino photo. It involved sketches of a couple and I remember the part about the woman's shirt collar and black hair looking familiar to Anna's brother. But I don't know where in this forum it was. I'm going to go look for it.
Also it seems like the sketch was of a couple that was suspected in a child abduction in another case about the same time, but was brought onto this forum because of the 'couple' thing.


Exactly. I'm glad someone besides me remembered. I also recall that Doogies reply indicated something like they never pursued it because there was no evidence the couple in the car had anything to do with Anna's disappearance. Though, now I really can't recall if that was posted here in Anna's forum, or did Doogie reply to that question in another forum where the question arose?

I'm looking too but haven't found it. Please post, or bump the old post if it is not in a locked/closed thread. (or copy it here) Thanks!

Cubby
04-17-2009, 01:24 AM
I think you may be referring to Antoinette Marino. A woman who went missing in CA the summer of 72. If I remember right it was after we brought up Antoinette's name that we found an adoptee who claimed to be the daughter of the missing Marino. Actually all e-mails were exchanged with her search angel and not with the adoptee. Our theory was... when Marino was released from prison, she could not find her daughter who had been adopted out while she was incarcerated. The adoptive family moved. Marino made her way north to HMB found Anna who resembled her daughter with blonde curly hair and the right age and took her. I found Marino married a couple times and last was living in Florida. We never heard back from the search angel if contact was ever made.


OT- but if she is married and living in FL why is she still listed as missing? does LE have her info in FL? If not someone should pass it along to the investigator working on the case, which is still active at doenetwork.

SideKick
04-17-2009, 09:48 AM
OT- but if she is married and living in FL why is she still listed as missing? does LE have her info in FL? If not someone should pass it along to the investigator working on the case, which is still active at doenetwork.

Morning!
This was my question to Sherlock too... if she is indeed alive and living in Florida, why still on the Doe missing? Unless she figured she got married, no one would put two and two together, and if she RAISED Anna in Florida.... I can't believe she would kidnap Anna and then discard her, what's the point in that? Is there a Social Insurance database?

Dr. Doogie
04-17-2009, 12:39 PM
Exactly. I'm glad someone besides me remembered. I also recall that Doogies reply indicated something like they never pursued it because there was no evidence the couple in the car had anything to do with Anna's disappearance. Though, now I really can't recall if that was posted here in Anna's forum, or did Doogie reply to that question in another forum where the question arose?

I'm looking too but haven't found it. Please post, or bump the old post if it is not in a locked/closed thread. (or copy it here) Thanks!

I do not recall ever saying that, but I have often been surprised when I have reviewed old threads at some of the things that I have posted. (Nothing is worse then reading something and thinking "Who is this idiot?", then discovering it was one of your own posts. LOL)

I believe that the couple in the car are a very important lead that should continue to be explored. If I have ever stated anything different, please slap me. :slap:

Dr. Doogie
04-17-2009, 12:55 PM
At the time that we were looking into Antoinette Marino, we found someone by that name living in Florida who appeared to be about the same age. We shared this info with the adoptee's search angel.

The angel was going to extraordinary levels to protect the adoptee from psychological trauma and was not sharing much info with her. All contact that we had was with the angel. We never heard back so we do not know if this lead was eventually shown to not be the same woman or not.
The angel and the adoptee were convinced that Marino had pissed off the wrong person, had been killed and was buried in the desert somewhere.

Cubby
04-17-2009, 01:55 PM
Am I mixing this up? Michaud Binder Daveggio
This is not the sketch I recall- as my recollection is a drawing/sketch and not actual photographs. I found these while searching, were these three ever researched as possibilities with Anna's case? -or- is the timeline way off? Interestingly there is a Facebook acct with someone with the same name as Michaud, unknown if there is any relation.

I've been looking and looking both here at WS and at Doenetwork for that sketch and I am still unable to locate the case.

Just throwing this out here incase anyone can recap before I spend a whole bunch of time digging. (Not to mention my son hid my keys and I STILL can not find them, argh! )

Dr. Doogie
04-17-2009, 03:01 PM
I do not believe that Daveggio or Machaud have ever been seriously discussed here. From the Charley Project website:

"James Daveggio has been considered as a possible suspect as well. He
and his former girlfriend, Michelle Michaud, were charged with the
1997 abduction, rape and murder of Vanessa Swanson. Swanson's
remains were discovered approximately five miles from the site of
Jaycee Dugard's 1991 California abduction. Photos of Daveggio and
Michaud are posted below this case summary. They were also charged
with additional counts of sexual assault in unrelated cases in the
mid-1990s. Michaud claims that she met Daveggio in 1996 and
therefore was not involved in Dugard's abduction. There are striking
similarities between Michaud and the female suspect in Dugard's
case.
Daveggio is also considered a possible suspect in Swartz-Garcia and
Misheloff's disappearances. Neither he nor Michaud has been charged
in connection with any of the cases. Garecht remains missing and her
case is unsolved"

If this timeline is true, then these two could not have been the couple in the car in late 1972/January 1973. And I am pretty sure that Annasbro's comment about someone looking exactly like his memory was in relation to Antoinette Marino.

Cubby
04-17-2009, 03:34 PM
Thank you Dr.Doogie. I'm really wondering if I have this sketch mixed up with another case for which you may have posted. Now I am unsure if the sketch was both a female and male, or just a female. I'm recalling a black and white sketch/drawing and the woman was wearing some kind of puffy blouse. Mayeb it will come to me. There are times I've thought about remembering something from a 10-20 years ago and usually it comes back to memory within a few weeks.

raindrops300
04-17-2009, 03:35 PM
Exactly. I'm glad someone besides me remembered. I also recall that Doogies reply indicated something like they never pursued it because there was no evidence the couple in the car had anything to do with Anna's disappearance. Though, now I really can't recall if that was posted here in Anna's forum, or did Doogie reply to that question in another forum where the question arose?

I'm looking too but haven't found it. Please post, or bump the old post if it is not in a locked/closed thread. (or copy it here) Thanks!

I cannot find it anywhere... I have searched the forum for 'sketch' 'composite' 'drawing'. Found a lot of interesting things, but not what i was looking for. I'm not 100% sure that the sketches Dr Doogie posted are the same ones I'm looking for that I remember. Could be, but not positive about it. Maybe we are thinking of another forum and Anna was mentioned in relation to the sketches?
Anyway I'm going to keep looking. Can you think of any other 'keywords' to search?

What I remember is a pencil drawing and it was a man and a woman. But I'm beginning to think it may have been in another forum and someone mentioned Anna and the 'couple' in the other forum.

smile22
04-17-2009, 05:19 PM
I cannot find it anywhere... I have searched the forum for 'sketch' 'composite' 'drawing'. Found a lot of interesting things, but not what i was looking for. I'm not 100% sure that the sketches Dr Doogie posted are the same ones I'm looking for that I remember. Could be, but not positive about it. Maybe we are thinking of another forum and Anna was mentioned in relation to the sketches?
Anyway I'm going to keep looking. Can you think of any other 'keywords' to search?

What I remember is a pencil drawing and it was a man and a woman. But I'm beginning to think it may have been in another forum and someone mentioned Anna and the 'couple' in the other forum.


i found it it was not a sketch that i could find but i found a refrence to a posting by annas bro if u go go to user names click on someones name u can find any and every posting they had saves u time from searching the threads anyways here it is http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1256718&postcount=671

he talks about the women wearing some indian style clothing

SideKick
04-17-2009, 05:40 PM
i found it it was not a sketch that i could find but i found a refrence to a posting by annas bro if u go go to user names click on someones name u can find any and every posting they had saves u time from searching the threads anyways here it is http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1256718&postcount=671

he talks about the women wearing some indian style clothing

~~~

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1665dfca.html Antoinette Marino

Cubby
08-28-2009, 12:29 AM
I do not recall ever saying that, but I have often been surprised when I have reviewed old threads at some of the things that I have posted. (Nothing is worse then reading something and thinking "Who is this idiot?", then discovering it was one of your own posts. LOL)

I believe that the couple in the car are a very important lead that should continue to be explored. If I have ever stated anything different, please slap me. :slap:


Now that Jaycee has been found, and the suspects sketch and perps have been found, it was that sketch I couldn't recall and had wondered if Annasbro had seen that sketch and did she resemble the woman he recalls from the car.

I don't know enough yet about the Garrido's. Where he was at the time of Anna's abduction. What year the car is ( now that they are saying the car- which does not match Anna's bro's description- is still in the back yard), or what kind of car he was driving in Jan 73. Was he with Nancy, his wife, in 73? What ages did Annasbro think this woman was, could she have been in her late teens as Nancy would have been about Jan 73 if she is currently 54.

I find it odd, I guess, that that was the sketch I was trying to recall, and there they are in Antioch, so close to HMB.

ETA: Phillip Garrido was not married to his current wife, the female in the sketch I was thinking of, in 1973. He was married to his first wife and former HS Sweetheart at the time so she could not be the female Annasbro saw in the car shortly before Anna went missing.

Dr. Doogie
08-28-2009, 02:48 AM
It is not confirmed yet, but it appears that Garrido was in jail during 1973. I am working on nailing this down.

I don't want to clog up Anna's thread with pictures from unrelated cases, but compare the picture of Philip Garrido to the composite of Michaela Garecht's kidnapper. Except for the length of hair, it is stunning. And he was not in prison in 1989 when Michaela disappeared... :eek:

Annasmom
08-28-2009, 09:59 AM
I don't know enough yet about the Garrido's. Where he was at the time of Anna's abduction. What year the car is ( now that they are saying the car- which does not match Anna's bro's description- is still in the back yard), or what kind of car he was driving in Jan 73. Was he with Nancy, his wife, in 73? What ages did Annasbro think this woman was, could she have been in her late teens as Nancy would have been about Jan 73 if she is currently 54.

I find it odd, I guess, that that was the sketch I was trying to recall, and there they are in Antioch, so close to HMB.

ETA: Phillip Garrido was not married to his current wife, the female in the sketch I was thinking of, in 1973. He was married to his first wife and former HS Sweetheart at the time so she could not be the female Annasbro saw in the car shortly before Anna went missing.

Cubby, in the press conference, the sheriff's man said "Nancy", Phillip's present wife, was present at the original kidnapping. Is this not the case?

Cubby
08-28-2009, 10:53 AM
Cubby, in the press conference, the sheriff's man said "Nancy", Phillip's present wife, was present at the original kidnapping. Is this not the case?

Phillip has a conviction in 1977 for a 1976 rape and kidnapping in NV. (though it did say he lived on Market street, but Market street where/what state?) His then wife Christine P (his HS sweetheart) had stated in one of the news articles I found, that she divorced him as a result of/after his convictions in the 1970's. Since the conviction was in 1977, I am assuming Christine, not Nancy, was married to him in 1973. Their marriage and divorce records for Phillip and Christine are listed at Ancestry.com, but I do not have a membership to view the actual dates. Anyone have an ancestry membership that could verify the exact dates?

I'll presume, it is a long shot that Phillip was having a relationship with Nancy during his marriage to CP..... Thus, I do not think Nancy G was the woman Annasbro saw in the car in 1973. But yes, Nancy was married/with Phillip when Jaycee was kidnapped. (I hope this make sense)

hth

Dr. Doogie
08-28-2009, 02:08 PM
In the press conference, it was said that he was convicted in 1971. Evidently, there are also news reports that it was 1976. The 1971 may be incorrect. Somewhere, last night in the whirlwind of webpages I viewed, I saw a news article from a Reno paper from the time of and about the earlier conviction - I need to refind that and check the date.

Annasmom, the mention by LE of the "original kidnapping" was in reference to the original kidnapping of Jaycee, not the Nevada one.

The arraignment is today at 1pm PST. I hope to go to it.

Dr. Doogie
08-28-2009, 02:16 PM
I found this posted elsewhere on Websleuths:

"This case brings to light Garrido's criminal past. Garrido was arrested in Reno on Nov. 23, 1976 on charges of kidnapping a South Lake Tahoe, Calif., woman.

unit had rugs on the floor and walls, pornographic magazines, a movie projector, marital aids, a spotlight, wine and hot water.

In 1977 Garrido was sentenced to 50 years in federal prison for kidnapping and five years to life on a state charge of sexual assault for crimes in Nevada. He started his federal prison term on June 30, 1977 and then was transferred to Nevada authorities on Jan. 22, 1988 to serve state time. He was then paroled in Nevada on Aug. 26, 1988 and then later paroled to California.

Article:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...090828_3213263 (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/dpgo_Phillip_Garrido_Prison_Parole_History_fc_2009 0828_3213263) "

Looks like this idiot is still in play as a POI for us.

John Curry
08-28-2009, 02:23 PM
It is not confirmed yet, but it appears that Garrido was in jail during 1973. I am working on nailing this down.

I don't want to clog up Anna's thread with pictures from unrelated cases, but compare the picture of Philip Garrido to the composite of Michaela Garecht's kidnapper. Except for the length of hair, it is stunning. And he was not in prison in 1989 when Michaela disappeared... :eek:

I grew up in Hayward Ca and lived down the street from Rainbow Market where and when Michael Joy Garecht was kidnapped, someone had tried to kidnap me months prior in front of Barnard White Middle School just 1/8 of mile down the street. Michaela has always been in the back of my mind, hoping that one day she is found as has happened with Jaycee. After reading articles on the particulars of Jayceeís case and her abductor I have noticed some similarities and hope they are investigated. Phillip Garrido has a prior conviction for kidnapping and rape; he was originally sentenced in 1977 to 50 years in federal prison for kidnapping and from five years to life on a state charge of sexual assault in South Lake Tahoe. He was paroled from the Northern Nevada Corrections Center in Carson City on Aug. 26, 1988. From there, he was paroled to California. Michaela Joy Garecht was kidnapped 11/19/1988 3 months later from Hayward California, if Garrido resided in Antioch at that time it would only be 50 miles away, much less then the 150 he traveled to pick up Jaycee.

Per the media Garrido was driving around in a Ford Granada when Jaycee was kidnapped (grey sedan). In the description of the vehicle in Michaelaís case the abductor drove a large older model American-made sedan. It was possibly a four-door vehicle and was cream, gold, or tan in color. While the colors donít match the descriptions are very similar. Another similarity has to do with the 1976 South Lake Tahoe case, according to a Nevada State Journal story published the next day, Reno detectives said the victim, a 25-year-old casino worker from South Lake Tahoe, was forced into a car at a market parking lot. Michaela was in a market parking lot and after being tricked that her scooter was around the corner she was grabbed and forced into the vehicle.

Again, I am only mentioning these similarities with hopes that they will be investigated and possibly bring closure to another case.

Dr. Doogie
08-28-2009, 02:25 PM
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb282/skov_album/PhilipG.jpg

This sounds like the crime occured in 1976. I wonder if there was a second (third?) earlier kidnapping in 1971 or if the 1971 date is just a mistake.

John Curry
08-28-2009, 02:26 PM
Double post...oops

Dr. Doogie
08-28-2009, 02:30 PM
I grew up in Hayward Ca and lived down the street from Rainbow Market where and when Michael Joy Garecht was kidnapped, someone had tried to kidnap me months prior in front of Barnard White Middle School just 1/8 of mile down the street...

John, have you ever presented this info to Hayward LE or Michaela's mother? I spoke to Sharon Murch (the mom) yesterday prior to the press conference and she asked me to let her know if any relevant info came to light - this certainly qualifies! Thanks for posting it.

John Curry
08-28-2009, 02:38 PM
I sent an email to Hayward PD and about 5 mins ago it kicked it back saying it was no longer valid. I had looked up Hayward PD on google and found 3 detective names and emails. I plan on calling here in a few minutes.

Dr. Doogie
08-28-2009, 02:42 PM
John:

The detective handling Michaela's case is Robert Lampkin. His contact info can be found at Sharon Murch's webpage http://www.missingmichaela.com/

John Curry
08-28-2009, 02:42 PM
I guess I should have called in the first place but I was unsure if I was overthinking this. I can tell you my attempted kidnapping and Michaela's has scarred me for life. I have a daughter of mine own and I never let her out of my sight. I use to go to school with Michaela's Best Friend's brother. It was her BF who was with her at the time this all happened.

Cubby
08-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Welcome to WS John!
Thank you for your input.

Cubby

John Curry
08-28-2009, 02:49 PM
Dr. Doogie, I just sent an email to the detective, Michaela's Mom and you detailing what we discussed above.

John Curry
08-28-2009, 03:07 PM
Just got a response from the FBI

"John:

Thank you very much for the information. We are definately investigating whether Garrido could be involved in any of the other missing children cases in the Bay Area, including Michaela's case. I appreciate you getting in touch with us!"

Marty Parker
FBI - Oakland

John Curry
08-28-2009, 03:20 PM
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb282/skov_album/PhilipG.jpg

This sounds like the crime occured in 1976. I wonder if there was a second (third?) earlier kidnapping in 1971 or if the 1971 date is just a mistake.

Where do you see 1971. In that case the crime happened in 1976 and he was sentenced in 1977. Or so I have read.

Annasmom
08-28-2009, 04:35 PM
Where do you see 1971. In that case the crime happened in 1976 and he was sentenced in 1977. Or so I have read.

John, welcome and thanks for your input. Regarding the 1971 date, see Post 441 on the next thread: The man's brother, according to an interview in this morning's San Francisco Chronicle, says he was convicted of kidnapping and rape in 1971.

Cubby
08-28-2009, 05:50 PM
I heard 1971 on the radio this afternoon also. I'm unsure if that is an incorrect date or he has an additional conviction prior to the conviction in 1977. It could be his brother got the years mixed up?

OzzieMum
08-28-2009, 08:59 PM
Hi Cubby,

Here's the info you wanted from Ancestry.

Phillip Craig Garrido, married Christine Marie Perreira 11 March 1973 in Navada (interesting year ?) and divorced 20 October 1980 in CA. No record of any children from the marriage.

The Market St address is 1855 Market St, Reno.

Their are also a couple of public records that appear to be for him. If you want me to post them or look up anything on Ancestry, just let me know

Cubby
09-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Additional 'timeline' information for Phillip Garrido. The above marriage record Ozzie was so kind to provide us places PG in NV in March of 1973. Found the following link over in the Dugard forum in the 'other victims' thread. (thanks to new WS member snappingturtle for the link and info!)

http://www.rgj.com/article/20090831/NEWS/90831044/1321/news (http://www.rgj.com/article/20090831/NEWS/90831044/1321/news)

From the article: "Garrido’s relatives, contacted Monday, said Phillip Garrido moved to Reno from California when he was about 19 years old. That places him in the area when Lass disappeared in 1970."

Ron Garrido, the suspect’s brother, told the San Francisco Chronicle this week that the brothers grew up in Brentwood, Calif., with their parents, Manuel and Pat Garrido. Their childhood was relatively unremarkable, he said, until Phillip Garrido began acting out, using LSD and dealing drugs.

Phillip Garrido graduated from Liberty High School in 1969 and moved to Reno shortly afterward, his brother said. He fled California after learning that fellow drug dealers “had a contract out on him,” Ron Garrido said.


This pretty much puts Garrido in the Reno/NV area from 70 until his arrest in 76 and incarceration in 77. Unless he was 'vacationing' in the Bay area in Jan 73, this makes it unlikely, not impossible, but unlikely he was involved in Anna's disappearance. (IMO).

I've yet to see any information that he was travelling between CA and NV in the early 70's. If I happen to see any info substanciating that possiblity will add it.

ETA: Hmmmm... I wonder if Garrido's relatives would 'welcome' a call or email? from Dr. Doogie inquiring if Garrido had visited the family for holidays in the 70's. Especially since Anna's disappearance occured shortly after the holidays ended. Dr. Doogie would you be up for this if we can find a way to make contact? How far is Brentwood from HMB?

thanks......

OzzieMum
09-05-2009, 12:23 AM
Hi Cubby,

Just to clarify, the marriage record states his place of residence as California (see below).

Name: Phillip Craig Garrido
Gender: Male
Residence State: California
Spouse: Christine Marie Perreira
Spouse residence state: California
Marriage Date: 11 Mar 1973
Marriage City: Carson City
Officiant type: Religious celebrant
Recorded Date: 16 Mar 1973
Recorded city: Carson City

As I mentioned in my previous post, ther are also 2 public records that appear to be for him too (see below).

Name: Phillip C Garrido
Birth Date: 1956
Address: Rr 1 Pob 397e, Antioch, California 94509-0801 (1993)
[Rr 1 Pob 396e, Antioch, California 94509-0701 (1989)]
[1554 Walnut Av, Antioch, California 94509]

Name: Phillip C Garrido
Address: 490 04597jr4 Nca #09189, Antioch, California 94509-0801 (1993)
[1554 Walnut Av, Antioch, California 94509-1101 (1992)]
[Rr 1 Pob 397e, Antioch, California 94509]

These mean nothing to me but maybe someone can check them out to see if they are relevent.

OzzieMum
09-06-2009, 12:51 AM
I have read a lot about this monster Girrido and Jaycee is the youngest of his confirmed victims. He was accused of raping a 14 year old, convicted of raping a 25 year old and picked up 2 14 year olds from a library. However, there is nothing to really indicate that he had any interest in very young children apart from one comment that stated, when he was working at a school he seemed to watch girls between 7 and 10 years old. Is he a pedo or another a sicko rapist. Did Jaycee look her age or older when she was abducted?

I am certainly not a criminalogist but from all the reading I have done on crime, these creeps normally have an MO and Anna doesn't seem to fit his.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Annasmom
09-06-2009, 03:20 AM
I have read a lot about this monster Girrido and Jaycee is the youngest of his confirmed victims. He was accused of raping a 14 year old, convicted of raping a 25 year old and picked up 2 14 year olds from a library. However, there is nothing to really indicate that he had any interest in very young children apart from one comment that stated, when he was working at a school he seemed to watch girls between 7 and 10 years old. Is he a pedo or another a sicko rapist. Did Jaycee look her age or older when she was abducted?

I am certainly not a criminalogist but from all the reading I have done on crime, these creeps normally have an MO and Anna doesn't seem to fit his.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
OzzieMum, it's great to find your posts when it is very late here. I wonder what the time difference is. Gerry Nash, Anna's caseworker at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, says that when children under the age of about six are abducted, it is usually by someone who wants a child to raise and not to exploit. I have found this heartening.

OzzieMum
09-06-2009, 03:44 AM
Hi Annasmon,

It's 5:36 pm Sunday here, so we are 17 hours ahead.

That is really good info to hear from Gerry Nash and you should definately be heartened by it.

I just hope that people don't get too sidetracked by Garrido, like I said, Anna doesn't seem to fit his MO.

I think viewing Jaycee's return as a good opportunity to highlight Anna's case and the many other missing children is the main thing to look at.

Dr. Doogie
09-06-2009, 08:55 AM
Ozziemum:

I generally agree with your assessment. I was much more interested in Garrido when the possibility existed that he and Nancy may have been "The Couple in the Car". Now that we know that he was in the general area - but not operating with a woman accomplaice - at that time, he was just one of far too many RSO's walking the streets. He may have been involved, but so could hundreds or thousands of other RSO's been responsible.

And the renewed interest in missing children by the media is something that we need to use to our advantage. We can build on this interest to further spread word about Anna's case.

Pink Panther
09-06-2009, 06:35 PM
And the renewed interest in missing children by the media is something that we need to use to our advantage. We can build on this interest to further spread word about Anna's case.

Yes Dr. Doogie - The Duggard case is what brought me here and I definitely think that you and Anna should make the most of the renewed interest that this case has brought! I hope that many people do come here with a renewed sense of HOPE!

MOO

Pink Panther
09-10-2009, 12:07 PM
This are some images on this thread of the cars that Garrido was driving:

Vehicles owned or used by Garrido - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


So, far he had three vehicles (old and run down) that we know about.

OzzieMum
09-12-2009, 11:46 PM
Ozziemum:

I generally agree with your assessment. I was much more interested in Garrido when the possibility existed that he and Nancy may have been "The Couple in the Car". Now that we know that he was in the general area - but not operating with a woman accomplaice - at that time, he was just one of far too many RSO's walking the streets. He may have been involved, but so could hundreds or thousands of other RSO's been responsible.

And the renewed interest in missing children by the media is something that we need to use to our advantage. We can build on this interest to further spread word about Anna's case.

Hi Dr Doogie,

I know there is a photo of Garrido's first wife when she was at school, but has anyone seen a photo of her around the time she married Garrido in March 1973 and compaired it to the scetch of the stranger in the car?

Just thinking out loud here, but Garrido talked NG into helping abduct Jaycee and in her own words his first wife said;

"Phil's a good manipulator," Murphy says in the interview. "He could talk you into pretty much anything." Murphy says it was not long before he began to physically abuse her.

Has she been interviewed in relation to Anna?

Cubby
09-13-2009, 10:07 AM
Hi Dr Doogie,

I know there is a photo of Garrido's first wife when she was at school, but has anyone seen a photo of her around the time she married Garrido in March 1973 and compaired it to the scetch of the stranger in the car?

Just thinking out loud here, but Garrido talked NG into helping abduct Jaycee and in her own words his first wife said;

"Phil's a good manipulator," Murphy says in the interview. "He could talk you into pretty much anything." Murphy says it was not long before he began to physically abuse her.

Has she been interviewed in relation to Anna?

Thanks Ozzie Mum. I'm not Doogie, but those are some good idea's. It is possible that PG's first wife could have been in the car and been unaware of PG's intentions of abducting a child..... and riding along with him innocently thinking he was only interested in giving a child a ride in a car. Especially since she didn't realize what kind of an animal he really was until she divorced him in the later 70's.

There are some pic's floating around of what PG's first wife looked like in HS. But unsure if any have been found about the time they married.

If possible, I think it is a fantastic idea for Doogie to see if he can make contact with PG's first wife regarding Anna's case, and ask her if PG was ever around the coast aka Coastside or the HMB area.

How about trying Doogie?

Thanks for the fantastic idea OzzieMum!

Mystic
09-15-2009, 11:16 PM
OzzieMum, it's great to find your posts when it is very late here. I wonder what the time difference is. Gerry Nash, Anna's caseworker at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, says that when children under the age of about six are abducted, it is usually by someone who wants a child to raise and not to exploit. I have found this heartening.

Annasmom, I've just started reading thru these threads and haven't wanted to post anything so that I wouldn't repeat anything that has already been said or looked at. I agree, my first impression was that Anna's age seemed more like taking a child to raise. I also wondered about the couple in the car a month previously... my thoughts were they may have been around the school picking out a child...followed the bus to where the child was let out. Then watched off and on for an opportune moment.

At this time I'm not discrediting the George's which I need to read more up on, as they could have led this couple to Anna. They would still need to watch the routine for a time to take her. From what I read so far it does not seem that the George's would have that information.

I wonder if LE discussed with any of the staff or older children at the school or the bus driver of any cars that seemed to be out of place, like unusal?

Also, as I read I think of things like cross border crossing. I was born in 62, a Canadian and my parents were turned away at the border when I was around 4 yrs old because I did 'not' resemble them in the least and they didn't have my id.. yet that was it. Just turned them around. Yet less then starting a couple of years later my brothers American girlfriend (now my sister-in-law) took me over a number of times without any issues. Just said I was her boyfriends sister. Guess I'm getting at that in those day's it wasn't that difficult depending on which Customs Officer you got and what your story was and if the child remotely resemble you. Annasbro mentioned Michigan plates as a possibility and that's one of the borders I'm speaking of.

All this may have been brought up, yet I'd like to see the public awareness of Jaycee's case work for you in getting Anna's picture out again, maybe info about the this car and couple. A picture of Anna when taken and a age-progressed (perhaps with varying lengths of hair & hair colour) There's always a good chance someone may recall a young couple with a child visiting or moving into their neighborhood.

Is there any possibility to have Dateline or other to do an episode with this case. I have no idea how you could go about it... but it sure would be an avenue. There are so many people that may not be aware of Anna's case still for many reasons. Someone knows something out there even after all this time. I pray for you to find your daughter.

LinasK
09-16-2009, 01:06 AM
Phillip has a conviction in 1977 for a 1976 rape and kidnapping in NV. (though it did say he lived on Market street, but Market street where/what state?) His then wife Christine P (his HS sweetheart) had stated in one of the news articles I found, that she divorced him as a result of/after his convictions in the 1970's. Since the conviction was in 1977, I am assuming Christine, not Nancy, was married to him in 1973. Their marriage and divorce records for Phillip and Christine are listed at Ancestry.com, but I do not have a membership to view the actual dates. Anyone have an ancestry membership that could verify the exact dates?

I'll presume, it is a long shot that Phillip was having a relationship with Nancy during his marriage to CP..... Thus, I do not think Nancy G was the woman Annasbro saw in the car in 1973. But yes, Nancy was married/with Phillip when Jaycee was kidnapped. (I hope this make sense)

hth
No, Nancy met him after Christine divorced him, while he was doing his time at Leavenworth. She visited him while visiting her uncle doing time there!:eek::eek::eek:

Tripmap
09-16-2009, 03:03 PM
No, Nancy met him after Christine divorced him, while he was doing his time at Leavenworth. She visited him while visiting her uncle doing time there!:eek::eek::eek:


Ancestry.com says Phillip and Christine were divorced 10/20/1980.

Cubby
09-18-2009, 10:35 AM
Ok, this is an awful thought, but it was known when PG was with his first wife, she was unable to get pregnant by him due to a low sperm count. It has been said that PG kidnapped Jaycee so he could give his wife, Nancy children. (I've read both of these in the Jaycee forum, backed with links-not sure if I could find them again....but they are there somewhere) . It is possible, imo, that PG would have abducted Anna to give his first wife- or a mistress- a child to raise. I wouldn't put anything past PG, he's one sick man. I'd also like to know if other woman involved with PG, aside from his first wife and the early 70's rape victim have come forward regarding being involved with him. IF he had taken Anna for his mistress( if he had one) it is possible, his first wife knew nothing of this.... or his relationship with someone else. Unlikley, but not impossible.

also, someone shared this theory with me via pm.... and was uncertain about posting it here, so I decided to go ahead and do so myself. (adding, because I cant take credit for the theory.)

I hope that is not the case, but I think we need to absolutley rule out PG's being in or near HMB when Anna went missing.

Is the detective working Anna's case doing ANY investigation himself regarding PG? In the HMB article, it did NOT indicate he was, he only stated the OTHER departments/jurisdictions investigating that possibility.

Cubby
09-18-2009, 10:45 AM
Ok, here's another far out there thought. As goofy as this PG is, with his odd and unsual beliefs, can anyone else 'see' GW manipulating PG in any way? (or do you think PG was far too whatever to be manipulated by GW. Is it possible that PG had ANY contact with GW medically? What if GW met PG as his physician? I know PG did not get medical treatment for Jaycee and the two girls, but that does not mean he never had medical treatment himself. GW's working in a 'walk in' clinic might just be the kind of place PG would have sought treatment. Especially if he was trying to 'lay low' so to speak.

Doogie, uh, this might be a question to ask PG's first wife, or brother ( IIRC, one of his brothers was interviewed). Doogie, I wonder what your thoughts are on possibly making contact with PG's brother and/or first wife yourself? especially regarding the possiblity of PG having a child 'from a previous relationship' as that is what he told his mther to explain the presence of Jaycee and her girls.

I hope that makes sense.... not always good at expressing myself in writing.

Dr. Doogie
09-18-2009, 11:24 AM
SherlockJr and I have been discussing possibilities concerning PG. I don't want to give specifics "in forum", but we are working on a plan of investigation. (We don't want to announce in advance what we are looking at in case any "bad guys" are monitoring the site.)

All of these thoughts are good ideas. I had not considered a possible connection between PG and GW. I had thought about the similarities between Garrido and Brody as far as being kooks who seem to have created their own religons.

Cubby
09-18-2009, 11:45 AM
Thanks Doogie. I understand keeping details off forum. IMO, if GB had an 'agenda' I think he would be the type of person to 'agree' simply to get what he wanted accomplished. PG was certainly close enough to the area to have come in contact with GW as a patient.

phylliyum
09-18-2009, 04:54 PM
I can't find the thread now, but I think it was in the Jaycee threads where someone (Doogie?) mentioned that Anna's brother said NG looked like the woman in the car. We know that she wasn't with Garrido at the time, but do we know where she was and who she was with? Is it possible that she was involved in abductions before ever hooking up with PG?

Pink Panther
09-18-2009, 05:09 PM
SherlockJr and I have been discussing possibilities concerning PG. I don't want to give specifics "in forum", but we are working on a plan of investigation. (We don't want to announce in advance what we are looking at in case any "bad guys" are monitoring the site.)

All of these thoughts are good ideas. I had not considered a possible connection between PG and GW. I had thought about the similarities between Garrido and Brody as far as being kooks who seem to have created their own religons.

I've missed this one entirely Dr. D! What "religion" did GB invent? I haven't been able to discern much about his religious beliefs! Can you please post a link or point me in the direction that I might find out more about this!!!

Skully
01-01-2010, 03:03 PM
I was wondering if a composite drawing was ever done of the woman that tried to lure Anna into the car in 1972. It is a long shot, but if she was friends of GB or GW, she may have lived by or work with GW. Are there any people still living in the area that could be asked about her? I know it over 35 yrs but she is huge connection to this case.

Cubby
03-23-2010, 02:51 PM
bumping to the front page.

Cubby
03-23-2010, 03:23 PM
I was wondering if a composite drawing was ever done of the woman that tried to lure Anna into the car in 1972. It is a long shot, but if she was friends of GB or GW, she may have lived by or work with GW. Are there any people still living in the area that could be asked about her? I know it over 35 yrs but she is huge connection to this case.


bumping the post since this was lost in another thread and moved here earlier today. This is a great question, and I don't know if a composite sketch of the woman who tried to lure Anna in the car was ever done. If it is possible, it is a great idea so she can be compared to other composite sketches or persons convicted of abducting or attempted abduction of a child.

Cubby
10-04-2010, 05:29 AM
bump ...

yosande
10-04-2010, 08:03 AM
I just finished reading through this thread and wonder if I missed the post of the sketches of the man and 8 year old girl that the nurse saw when she was 17 years old.

What became of this investigation which I thought was a wonderful lead, but seemed to have been dropped when another idea came to the thread.

An update on the lead would be appreciated. tia. :)

Skully
10-04-2010, 06:17 PM
I can't find the thread now, but I think it was in the Jaycee threads where someone (Doogie?) mentioned that Anna's brother said NG looked like the woman in the car. We know that she wasn't with Garrido at the time, but do we know where she was and who she was with? Is it possible that she was involved in abductions before ever hooking up with PG?

Wow, I missed this post too! I say this about all the cases, but I will say it here too, things don't happen in a void. Someone has seen something, or knows something. I think about all the steps it takes to take a child and get them from point A to point B. She had to have been taken by a car or some kind of transportation. Someone had to drive, someone had to go get her, someone had to taken her to an airport if she was taken abroad, someone had to record something about a flight, a child, a name of the couple, something. So the sportsmen club may have a unaware witness, the airport, the records of a flight, a passerby, some body. She went missing in broad daylight, and we suspect people known to her. I am just throwing stuff out there, I do that some times to jog an idea or memory. I will go back to my corner now..... think about my letter to the FBI guy that yelled at me the last time..... :furious:

Cubby
10-04-2010, 06:23 PM
SherlockJr and I have been discussing possibilities concerning PG. I don't want to give specifics "in forum", but we are working on a plan of investigation. (We don't want to announce in advance what we are looking at in case any "bad guys" are monitoring the site.)

All of these thoughts are good ideas. I had not considered a possible connection between PG and GW. I had thought about the similarities between Garrido and Brody as far as being kooks who seem to have created their own religons.


Any updates or rule outs on the possible theories? :angel:

yosande
10-06-2010, 06:34 AM
I just finished reading through this thread and wonder if I missed the post of the sketches of the man and 8 year old girl that the nurse saw when she was 17 years old.

What became of this investigation which I thought was a wonderful lead, but seemed to have been dropped when another idea came to the thread.

An update on the lead would be appreciated. tia. :)

bump, b/c I really want to know. tia

Annasmom
10-06-2010, 12:43 PM
bump, b/c I really want to know. tia
The individual we have called "the informant" telephoned Doogie about four years ago after reading an article about Anna in the local newspaper. SherlockJr and I spoke with her at some length and I read all the 1975 and 1976 local newspapers on microfilm, trying to pin down some information about robberies the woman mentioned. SherlockJr investigated rental properties belonging to the woman's father, looking for a tenant named "Bill", which was the only name the informant could give. The woman was not able to provide a description of the tenant (or robber; she was not sure which). This heartening but vague report really gave us nothing else to follow up on.

Cubby
01-14-2012, 11:35 PM
:bump:

bumping the theory threads back to the top of the page.

Chicken Hawk
01-20-2012, 11:06 PM
FWIW, I have always believed that she was abducted by the couple in the car. I just think it's too much of a coincidence that they tried to lure her into the car a week before she went missing (IIRC). I mean what are the odds, ya know?

SideKick
01-21-2012, 07:11 PM
FWIW, I have always believed that she was abducted by the couple in the car. I just think it's too much of a coincidence that they tried to lure her into the car a week before she went missing (IIRC). I mean what are the odds, ya know?


You know, in my heart of hearts I do think she was abducted, either by some plan with the folks in the car or what I don't know. But what is bugging me now is 'The Plan' the G's wrote with the date January, 16, 1973. If Anna fell into the creek that day, what a coincidence for dates!

smile22
01-21-2012, 08:32 PM
You know, in my heart of hearts I do think she was abducted, either by some plan with the folks in the car or what I don't know. But what is bugging me now is 'The Plan' the G's wrote with the date January, 16, 1973. If Anna fell into the creek that day, what a coincidence for dates!



what if things did not go as they had planned that day and she did fall into the creak, then there would have been no plan
i believe that she was taken, and is still alive.

Dr. Doogie
01-23-2012, 09:26 PM
You know, in my heart of hearts I do think she was abducted, either by some plan with the folks in the car or what I don't know. But what is bugging me now is 'The Plan' the G's wrote with the date January, 16, 1973. If Anna fell into the creek that day, what a coincidence for dates!

Your point is valid, but one correction: the "Plan" note indicated that something involving "ACE" (undoubtedly Anna) was to occur in January 1973 - not specifically the 16th.

October
01-23-2012, 11:03 PM
Your point is valid, but one correction: the "Plan" note indicated that something involving "ACE" (undoubtedly Anna) was to occur in January 1973 - not specifically the 16th.

I don't remember much about this note and searching "The Plan" gives too many results. Is there a link to it? Thanks!

Cubby
01-23-2012, 11:34 PM
I don't remember much about this note and searching "The Plan" gives too many results. Is there a link to it? Thanks!



When you searched, did you search this forum only? There is lots of discussion on the plan, but in which thread I'm not sure.

The actual photo of the doc is in the flickr link at this post:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Images only - No Discussion



Also, if one clicks on the paper clips (on the right after thread titles) a list of attachments comes up. That's another easier way to find things.

hth


ETA: I did a quick search and the majority of the discussion on the plan appears to be in the BFH or Box from Hell threads. hth

SideKick
01-24-2012, 10:56 AM
Your point is valid, but one correction: the "Plan" note indicated that something involving "ACE" (undoubtedly Anna) was to occur in January 1973 - not specifically the 16th.

~~ Dr. Doogie, thanks for correcting me on the specifics of the date for the plan. I think I have that entire date stamped in my brain. ;-):seeya:

SideKick
01-24-2012, 11:45 AM
Youtube containing outline and The Plan:

Anna Waters - abduction suspects - YouTube

SideKick
02-24-2012, 05:40 PM
http://classiccars.com/listing/172545.html

I located this site today. They have Chev Impala's dating from any year. I put 1965 - 1969. If I recall Anna's bro said the car was a 4 door? But maybe this is the colour, sort of a green/gold.
You can also pick the State/Province in which generates where the cars are.

I tried to save as - to my pictures however the pictures are blank hence the link.

Thx.

tyroneous1
06-10-2012, 04:14 AM
Hey....I'm new to the site but a longtime follower of Anna's case. I would love to get some feedback about this idea I've had for a while now. It seems that the online matches have been exhausted, regarding profiles of Jane Does. Anyhow, this is just an idea that is based on loosely connected evidence. I think Annasbro's account of the couple is substantial and think they abducted Anna. Long story short, I think her abduction is connected to Jeffrey Bratcher's abduction from a Washington park. And that based on appearances and locale, Anna and Jeffrey could be the Mendocino County John and Jane Does. I can expand on that but I'm typing on my phone and it is terribly slow. Anyhow, I would love to get some feedback. Good luck on your sleuthing.
T

tyroneous1
06-10-2012, 04:29 AM
Sorry. My dumb phone changed the name in the previous post. I intended to write that Anna's case could be related to JEFFREY MICHAEL BRATCHER. Anyhow, hope that helped.
T

smile22
06-10-2012, 09:39 AM
Hey....I'm new to the site but a longtime follower of Anna's case. I would love to get some feedback about this idea I've had for a while now. It seems that the online matches have been exhausted, regarding profiles of Jane Does. Anyhow, this is just an idea that is based on loosely connected evidence. I think Annasbro's account of the couple is substantial and think they abducted Anna. Long story short, I think her abduction is connected to Jeffrey Bratcher's abduction from a Washington park. And that based on appearances and locale, Anna and Jeffrey could be the Mendocino County John and Jane Does. I can expand on that but I'm typing on my phone and it is terribly slow. Anyhow, I would love to get some feedback. Good luck on your sleuthing.
T

both the jane and john doe were both around 13-14 male was believed to be 13 and female not over 14 and the hight of the girl would have been to tall to be Anna

Annasmom
06-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Hey....I'm new to the site but a longtime follower of Anna's case. I would love to get some feedback about this idea I've had for a while now. It seems that the online matches have been exhausted, regarding profiles of Jane Does. Anyhow, this is just an idea that is based on loosely connected evidence. I think Annasbro's account of the couple is substantial and think they abducted Anna. Long story short, I think her abduction is connected to Jeffrey Bratcher's abduction from a Washington park. And that based on appearances and locale, Anna and Jeffrey could be the Mendocino County John and Jane Does. I can expand on that but I'm typing on my phone and it is terribly slow. Anyhow, I would love to get some feedback. Good luck on your sleuthing.
T
Thank you for your input. Anna's DNA has been compared to that of all unidentifieds in the national database and there has been no match. We are waiting on DNA results from a bone fragment found about seven miles from where she disappeared, but the local coroner seem to think it is unlikely that there will be a match.

Cubby
06-10-2012, 02:51 PM
Hi and welcome to WS tyroneous1 :welcome:

I think Anna would be too young to be the Mendocino Jane Doe. smile22 started the thread for the Mendocino John and Jane Doe. Mendocino Jane Doe was believed to be 14. Anna would have been 11 in July of 1979 when this jane was found. I'd have to look again, but my guess would be Anna would have only been 9 or 10 at the time it is believed Mendocino Jane Doe died.

Going to look now to confirm.

Cubby
06-10-2012, 03:03 PM
Date of death is believed to be December 78. Which would have made Anna 11.

CA CA - Mendocino County - Male 111UMCA and Female 131UFCA, teens, July 1979 - *merged* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



I didn't find Mendocino County Jane and John doe in NamUs. Still trying to find out if dna is available for the two.

Though, I still think 5'5' would be far too tall for an 11 year old female. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Cubby
06-10-2012, 03:08 PM
From memory. I think I recall reading they initially thought these two were siblings, but dna proved they were not related. So, I think dna exists. Since both cases are in CA, I think we are safe to assume dna has been compared or would have on a database run of some sort. I'm not really sure how they do that.... but I'm fairly certain Mendocino Jane Doe is not Anna.

tyroneous1
06-10-2012, 04:19 PM
That's really cool. Good to know they've compared her DNA to others. I had no idea.
Also, the Mendocino Doe DNA sounded like they only had mitochondrial DNA. I would be interested what technique they used. Anyhow, intriguing none the less. Wish I could do more.

Cubby
06-10-2012, 04:42 PM
I believe the dna on file for Anna is also mitochondrial dna. the samples taken from her mother and half brothers. From the research I've done, mt-dna is less degradable than nuclear dna. I'm not an expert, so my knowledge is layman only...

Some of Anna's personal items were submitted to see if nuclear dna could be obtained, from memory they were not able to obtain any nuclear dna from her personal items.

smile22
06-22-2012, 11:36 AM
just thought of something pertaining to the stranger couple in the car. its been so long since that attempted kidnapping happened. I am wondering if annas brother remembers if the stranger called anna by her name or asked her name at any point when they saw them.? did she mention anything that was something anna had, and only the Georges would have known to tell this women and man.?

SemmesMom
07-03-2012, 10:28 PM
First off I know that Anna's family checks in here, now and then. Please know that y'all are in my thoughts and prayers.

Someone questioned why the couple may have first spoke to Anna when she was with her brothers, if their thoughts were kidnapping her. Many moons ago, when I was around 11 (in the early 90s) someone approached me and a friend at the bus stop. They were specifically speaking to my friend, but were engaging me in the conversation to a certain degree. I've felt for years that maybe they were trying to gain trust to then get her in the car. At the point that attempted to lure her in the car I grabbed her arm and pulled her into a neighbor's yard. By this time my mom realizes what is going on (as we lived across the street) and starts out the door and towards the car. They take off down the street and stop at the next bus stop (with a 11 y.o. male, another friend of mine) and attempt to lure him in the car using a different method (my mom started running that way, as it was just a block down the road and within our ability to see what was happening) and they took off again. Possibly the couple was attempting to gain Anna's trust by addressing her when others were around, whom she trusted.

Also, while I personally do not believe that the Mendocino Jane Doe is Anna, 5'5" is not necessarily impossible for an 11 y.o. girl. My 10 y.o. is 5'3". Yes, it is uncommon, as she towers over girls her age, it is not impossible.