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View Full Version : Theory #3: Other Stranger Abduction


Dr. Doogie
03-09-2006, 04:17 PM
This thread will be for discussing alternate theories of stranger abduction. I will copy forward the relevant material from the previous thread and re-post it her in a condensed form.

Annasmom
03-31-2006, 08:05 PM
This thread will be for discussing alternate theories of stranger abduction. I will copy forward the relevant material from the previous thread and re-post it her in a condensed form.
Today I had the idea of making up a little flyer saying that we were looking into Anna's disappearance again and giving contact information. I thought I'd put one in each mailbox along Purisima Creek Road, asking the residents if they remember anything or have ever observed anything which might relate to the case. I'll let you know what happens. Annasmom

kyresearcher
03-31-2006, 08:35 PM
Annasmom, that is a great idea, we want to keep interest in her case. Who knows, someone may just remember something that didn't seem important then and have been wondering about it all these years. There is nothing like a true mothers love-

itsreenw
03-31-2006, 09:46 PM
Today I had the idea of making up a little flyer saying that we were looking into Anna's disappearance again and giving contact information. I thought I'd put one in each mailbox along Purisima Creek Road, asking the residents if they remember anything or have ever observed anything which might relate to the case. I'll let you know what happens. AnnasmomGreat idea. I don't know which Cable provider there is in that area, but in Solano County we have Comcast Cable. They have a local channel that is for local ads, birthday wishes, notices of city hall meetings, Solano County's most wanted., etc... the "page" changes every 10 seconds or so. I am wondering if you might want to contact the Cable company and see if they have the same thing there. They may even do it free considering the reason, but I don't think its very expensive anyway. Just a thought.

Edited to add:
You may want to contact the local newspaper also and talk to someone in Classifieds. Tell them you are considering purchasing some space in the Personals to look for your missing daughter that is now a cold case and you need their help in deciding what info to include to keep costs at a minimum since you do not have LE assistance or a financial backing from a Missing Persons Organization (Polly Klaas, Carol Sund, etc)
I can betcha the person that assists you will transfer you to a reporter to do a story. It can't hurt to try.

Dr. Doogie
04-02-2006, 12:18 AM
Today I had the idea of making up a little flyer saying that we were looking into Anna's disappearance again and giving contact information. I thought I'd put one in each mailbox along Purisima Creek Road, asking the residents if they remember anything or have ever observed anything which might relate to the case. I'll let you know what happens. Annasmom
That seems like a great idea. Much in same way that Annasbro remembered new information, someone else may have info that they assumed we already had that could add to our investigation. Good thinking!

SherlockJr
04-12-2006, 02:43 AM
Any updates on running ads on cable television or the flyers?

Annasmom
04-12-2006, 08:50 PM
Any updates on running ads on cable television or the flyers?Sherlock, I'm trying to get the flyer together. Meanwhile, Kelly has included Anna's story in a trucking magazine and other places and the San Jose organization has put out their own flyers. Thanks for the reminder, though!

itsreenw
07-17-2006, 02:04 AM
I have been behind the scenes trying to find anything/anyone that may have been involved. While my heart tells me it was George & George, I want to remain open minded. Has the serial killer, Phillip Joseph Hughes, Jr been considered? His victims were all from the bay area. The timeline fits but the ages are off (9-25). I believe Anna is alive and well. I hate to even consider anything different but we have to be realistic.

Dr. Doogie
07-17-2006, 11:30 AM
I have been behind the scenes trying to find anything/anyone that may have been involved. While my heart tells me it was George & George, I want to remain open minded. Has the serial killer, Phillip Joseph Hughes, Jr been considered? His victims were all from the bay area. The timeline fits but the ages are off (9-25). I believe Anna is alive and well. I hate to even consider anything different but we have to be realistic.
All things must be considered and the possibility that Anna was a victim of a predator is something that requires examination. I have not specifically looked at Hughes (though I will now).

Early on (before evidence led us to focus on George Waters and Brody), I stated that if Anna's disappearance was a stranger abduction, we needed to take a closer look at Cynthia Sumpter who was missing out of San Jose about a year after Anna went missing. Sumpter was a six year old who went missing from her front yard, never to be found. Little information is available about the Sumpter case beyond the usual missing posters at the various websites. If anyone has a desire to take a look at her case and report anything that seems to relevant, that may be a worthwhile persuit.

I also recieved a 1974 article from a poster concerning a six year old who was abducted by a predator (she was released later that day) in Santa Clara. The article references a third young girl who was kidnapped and murdered in San Jose a couple of weeks earlier. Police believed that the two cases were related. The article is pdf file (which I cannot post on my usual sight for downloads) - if anyone wants to read it, please email a request to drdoogief@earthlink.net and I will forward it to you.

What all of this means is that there was probably a serial kidnapper/murderer of young girls operating in the year following Anna's disappearance about forty miles from Half Moon Bay. If we had not found the evidence pointing toward the two Georges, this would be the most likely (yet horrific) scenario for investigation.

I do not believe that this is what happened. I believe that Anna was alive for (at least) a significant period of time after her abduction, and I have faith that she is alive today. The evidence is too strong for Waters' and Brody's involvement, and I deduce that they would not have knowingly physically harmed her.

Dr. Doogie
07-17-2006, 11:45 AM
I just did a prelimanary search concerning Phillip Joseph Hughes Jr. My immediate reaction was that this is not related. His known victims were older and had brown hair. His apparent motivation was revenge against a former girlfriend, so his victims shared common physical characteristics with her.

His name is mentioned in the disappearance of a nine-year-old, but that is the only child mentioned (and the location is in a different area then where he was known to operate, so I have my doubts concerning his involvement with that case).

SherlockJr
07-17-2006, 11:48 AM
I have been behind the scenes trying to find anything/anyone that may have been involved. While my heart tells me it was George & George, I want to remain open minded. Has the serial killer, Phillip Joseph Hughes, Jr been considered? His victims were all from the bay area. The timeline fits but the ages are off (9-25). I believe Anna is alive and well. I hate to even consider anything different but we have to be realistic.
I looked into Phillip Hughes several months back. I remember the timeline fit. Is he the one who was found guilty of 12 people and confessed there were more? He kinda got put on the back burner when the "plan" was discovered in the BFH.

SherlockJr
07-17-2006, 11:56 AM
Early on (before evidence led us to focus on George Waters and Brody), I stated that if Anna's disappearance was a stranger abduction, we needed to take a closer look at Cynthia Sumpter who was missing out of San Jose about a year after Anna went missing. Sumpter was a six year old who went missing from her front yard, never to be found. Little information is available about the Sumpter case beyond the usual missing posters at the various websites. If anyone has a desire to take a look at her case and report anything that seems to relevant, that may be a worthwhile persuit.
This reminds me of something Kyresearcher sent to me a couple months ago. She found a woman living in Texas who's pic was a dead ringer for Sumpter. We conversed back and forth with e-mail and after showing her a pic of Sumpter, she was shocked to see the resemblance also. However this woman was born several years earlier. And this woman didn't go ballistic! Good work by Kyresearcher!

Dr. Doogie
07-17-2006, 12:06 PM
I looked into Phillip Hughes several months back. I remember the timeline fit. Is he the one who was found guilty of 12 people and confessed there were more? He kinda got put on the back burner when the "plan" was discovered in the BFH.
I believe that he was convicted of three murders. I don't think he has confessed to any additional. The timeframe does fit, but the M.O. seems different.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_news/H/HUGHES_phillip_joseph_jr.php

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 03:54 PM
I know alot of thought and work has gone into the theory that Brody/Waters had something to do with Anna's disapperance and I really don't see that as a bad avenue to explore. However, I have to share some doubts I have on this and push this 3rd theory back to the top.

I really am not feeling that Brody/Waters were involved in the actual disapperance, although they certainly are strange bedfellows. I don't know if it is just the recent event with John Karr coming forward and being so weird or what seems to me to be quite a few missing showing up close to home lately, but I had a dream about this. I will preface this by saying I'm not a psychic or anything or hold much faith in such things. I'm more inclined to believe my dream came because I have Anna so much in thought and events of late are starting to wrap themselves around her and this is how it comes out.

I was, in the dream, researching this case and came upon the information that one of the men was overheard to say, "Glad the tot is dead" .. not sure if this is rumor or exactly correct but I've read it here obviously and incorporated it into my subconcious enough for it to start a dream. From there, I'm a private eye (haha yeah, right) and spying on them and it dawns on me that they are clueless what happened to her. Somehow, my private eye self knows she is still alive and if they believe she is dead; then there can be no connection.

Next, I'm hiking out in your area. I have actually walked the beach all along that stretch and others when I was younger (Santa Rosa resident here). This time I was not on the beach though and more around the area you live and in the woods. I decide to look for clues to her (no longer a private eye but now a concerned citizen). As I search, I come to the creek and realize that I'm wasting my time. She is not here. She wasn't brought here and there are no clues to her here.

So, I go right up to your house. (Dreams are great for getting around fast). I am now a spirit type person and can't be seen or knock on your door, but I don't need to. As a spirit, I know you already know this and I don't have to tell you what you already know. I travel down the road a bit and I realize with crystal clarity that Anna is nearby. Just like so many others found near home, she is also near home.

My spirit self becomes torn between rather to go back to tell you this or to move next to where Anna actually is. It then becomes one of those kinda dreams where you are looking for something but can't find it and I wake up as is typical in that type of dream without ever having found what I was seeking.

I could interpret this as meaning I have nothing to tell you and no way to help you and this is how it immediately feels when I think about the dream. Just that hopeless feeling you get when you are not in control and can't do anything. Yet, I have this nagging feeling that I was given something to tell you.

I don't know if she is still alive or what happened to her, but she is near. Have you moved since she disappeared? She is near where she disappeared from. I ask about moving because I feel she is near you too (as though these are seperate nearness) which makes me worry she might not be alive. Yet, due to recent news perhaps, I just strongly feel she is very much alive. Do you work near where you used to live or visit someone/something there? Did maybe just one of you (like the brother) move, but one is still there? This is what confuses me and I'm sure you probably already answered this and I have read it and it is just lost in the storage of my brain (bad place to be lost as it is a mess in there!)

I think this 3rd theory is closer to the truth then the Brody/Waters theory. I'm sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear or doesn't fit with what you know. I strongly believe the message from my dream is:

You need to look closer to home.

Her disappearance doesn't feel strange (Brody/Waters strange), but typical of what we see in the news today.

I could just be spending too much time thinking about her in light of recent events too and totally wrong. I did feel it would be wrong not to share this with you. Please file it as you feel appropriate. You have my support whatever you do and wherever you look. I wish I was younger again and didn't have arthritis in knees so badly. I would be out there doing some walking again. I do miss that. I probably wouldn't be looking in same places you do though. I feel a need to visit stores, shops, etc. Local stuff. Maybe the beach too. Collecting flowers, driftwood, shells, pieces of colored glass. I think I would run right into her if I did.

I wonder if I would know it.

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 04:05 PM
**Quite a few of the current residents of Purissima Creek Road lived there in 1973, but others have continued to live in the HMB area, yet have moved from the place on the road (Annasmom is one example). **

Ok, just found this in the Brody/Waters thread. Hope it isn't too invasive for me to ask you how far away you moved and if anyone still lives at the old place (family or otherwise). Do you visit someone back there or go back there for some reason? Like do you still have family or other friends who live out there?

Dr. Doogie
09-20-2006, 05:30 PM
As Annasmom and I drove up Purissima Creek Road, she was identifying who lived in each house in 1973 and whether they still lived there. Half Moon Bay is a small community and the odds of Anna being raised there without being seen by someone who knew her are nill. (There is even a member here who was in Anna's kindergarten class and still follows the case to this day.) Your thoughts and even dreams are welcome here, but I doubt that in this case they are true.

There is always still the possibility that Anna fell into the creek, though I doubt that occured since it has been thoroughly explored numerous times without any evidence uncovered. Also, the fact that even if a body had eluded discovery in the immediate aftermath of Anna's disappearance, it would have undoubtedly been found sometime in the subsequent 33 years by a rancher or a fisherman along the creek. This also holds true if Anna were abducted by a predator and was killed in the immediate area - on the day that Annasmom and I travelled the road, there were at least two dozen cars parked at the trailhead near the farm with hikers swarming over a lot of different territory. Surely someone would have come across a body during this long period of time if it was there. (Just to be clear before any theories pop up about the hikers - the park and trails were not there in 1973. They are a relatively recent addition to the area.)

Concerning "I am glad the tot is dead" comment by George Waters to Brody: I am not sure what to make of it. It could mean that they had nothing to do with Anna's disappearance and just assumed that she was dead after a period of time, or it could mean that they were involved and knew that she was dead. Between the two choices, it makes me want to hope that they did not have anything to do with it (which would leave open the possibilty that Anna is alive). There are other, more esoteric possibilities such as "Anna" was dead, but the girl we know as Anna was alive under a different identity - one never knows for sure what these loons meant when they spoke. I personally have just set that statement aside for the moment to allow myself the freedom to let my mind consider any possible solutions.

While we have concentrated our research on Waters and Brody, I try to remain open to other possibilities. Since the couple in the car seem to have played some role in the disappearance, we know of at least two people that were involved (four, if you believe that Waters and Brody had a hand in it). Brody and Waters are dead, but chances are that the couple in the car are still alive. Hopefully, some clue will lead us to discovering their identities which may lead us to an answer about Anna.

There is always the possibility that someone else besides these four were responsible and I have tried to explore any possibilties that arise that do not fit the Waters/Brody theory. I have received names and reports of incidents that may be related to the case from various researchers here and have tried to slueth out any connections to Anna. I have quietly looked into the Church of Satan, the Temple of Set, and the People's Temple as possibile places that may have had motivation to abduct a little girl. I have looked at the Zodiac Killer and other serial killers who operated in the same general time and space as Anna's disappearance. I have examined other missing children from this same era and any sexual predators who may have been in the area. While anything is possible, nothing makes as much sense to me as an abduction orchestrated by Brody and Waters for some sort of financial gain.

Annasmom
09-20-2006, 05:47 PM
**Quite a few of the current residents of Purissima Creek Road lived there in 1973, but others have continued to live in the HMB area, yet have moved from the place on the road (Annasmom is one example). **

Ok, just found this in the Brody/Waters thread. Hope it isn't too invasive for me to ask you how far away you moved and if anyone still lives at the old place (family or otherwise). Do you visit someone back there or go back there for some reason? Like do you still have family or other friends who live out there?

Elberethe, I have read your dream posting twice now and will read it again. Our family moved from the place Anna disappeared about a year later. I am the only one from the nuclear family still close by, and I now live maybe 14 miles away from Purisima Canyon. I do still know one family which lives in Purisima, and as I said in the other thread, Doogie and I drove up and down the road several times last Saturday. We also drove down the canyon road which joins up with Purisima. There is yet another canyon roughly parallel with Purisima which is much more rural and spread out and which connects at one end with Highway 35 (Skyline) and at the other end with the Coast Highway. Doogie and I had no reason to travel down this long, winding road, since we were mostly collecting post office box numbers for the mailing of the flier informing neighbors that the search for Anna was still on, and giving them contact information. These were mailed Monday.
I am very touched that Anna's case is so much on your mind that you dreamed about it. I appreciate your insight.

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 06:11 PM
Hi Doogie.

Hope I didn't offend you. It certainly was not my intention and I see how much work and how much leads you have followed. No one can question how hard you have worked on this. I sure hope you aren't missing time with Annasmom to talk to me! HAH! I should just drive out there if that is the case. Seriously, though, it was just a dream and while it left some very strong impressions on me (as such dreams would do), it doesn't equate to any real information.

I will be honest with you, and say I have always (since first reading about this) believed she fell in the creek and just wasn't found. It is possible, however unlikely it may be. Mud could have covered her .. slides .. covered by debris and she never be found. The earth is unforgiving in this way. It gives up only what it wants to give up.

After the dream, I'm certain she is not there though. I can't explain why or offer any logical reasons such as you do. It did make me start to think in other directions more seriously, however. I'm also just as certain the Brody/Waters team didn't have anything to do with it. I know that goes against your gut feeling and so much work and I'm very sorry for that. I mean no disrespect to what you have done. None at all.

I also don't think they could purposely hurt/kill her either from what I have read here. Do you feel different? Kidnap, yes. I just strongly believe they are clueless. Did Waters really say that about being glad the tot was dead? He is a weird one, but honestly, Doogie, I can't see him feeling that way. I could see him saying more to the effect of being glad he doesn't have to pay child support, but that is way different then being glad someone (your own child) is dead. Not doubting you; just find it very hard to wrap myself around that really being said.

I also have been to Half Moon Bay. I lived there for a bit in the mid 80's and no one knew it. Care to know how? Yes, it is a small community and I agree if she was in school someone would recognize her. However, I strongly disagree that if she is there that someone would notice and know who she was. While not heavily populated (when I was there) it is very spread out and has very remote areas. The community may be close, but I assure you that not everyone living there is part of that community. (Unless an aweful lot changed in 10 years .. it sure did here in SR). At that time, I believe transients (farm workers for 1) were common there. It has also been a bit of a "touristy" area (even then). I mean there were visitors to the area who didn't stay long.

Besides, even in the closest of communities, we don't really know everyone. People are often not who they appear to be. How often, lately, have you heard neighbors of some community exclaim to the effect "he/she was so nice. I can't believe they would do such a thing?!"

How does that tie in to her still being in area? I have my ideas. Again, no proof though. I just think this needs to be explored more and I know you are doing all you can. I'm not questioning your efforts at all. You have done an amazing job. :clap: :dance: I'm only thinking in another direction .. as a woman, I will call that my perogative. ;)

Dr. Doogie
09-20-2006, 06:21 PM
One more quick example of the highlights (lowlights?) of what has been looked into: the musician Neil Young lives in the area not far from the place were Anna disappeared. Somewhere, in the back of this dustbin I call a mind, I recalled that a member of the band Crazy Horse (whom Neil records with frequently) was denied entry into the United States due to legal troubles and thought I remembered that it was for statutory rape. Letting my mind go to the possibilty that the bandmember could have been in the area in January 1973, I checked the discography of Neil to see if he could have been recording an album at his ranch at that time with Crazy Horse. I could never locate any information about the nature of the bandmember's legal troubles, so eventually I gave up this pursuit. (Annasmom, sometimes ya' just gotta look for zebras too.)

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 06:26 PM
Thankyou for answering that question Annasmom. That makes sense to me that you are still in the area but not the exact same place. I don't want to give you any false hopes or such, but it does make sense with what I dreamed and believe.

Also, I think anyone who reads your story and comes to know Anna through your eyes, is going to always have you both on their mind. All the more reason to get that book out there. You can never have too many eyes watching. If I touched you at all then it is only because you (and Anna) have touched me.

If there is anything I can do, please don't hesitate to ask. I realize I get on odd tangents at times. I have a tendency to approach things from a different perspective then other people. Sometimes seems a curse, but I have also seen it have good results for others. I'm Native American so please forgive my awkward way of approaching problems. Most is cultural differences.

By the by, you can kick the AC out there anytime now .. it is getting kinda warm inland here ;)

Dr. Doogie
09-20-2006, 06:27 PM
Hi Doogie.

Hope I didn't offend you. It certainly was not my intention and I see how much work and how much leads you have followed. No one can question how hard you have worked on this.
I am not offended at all - I just wanted to demonstrate that other theories were being looked at in addition to the Waters/Brody theory. I appreciate any input that people can offer.

Annasmom
09-20-2006, 06:29 PM
One more quick example of the highlights (lowlights?) of what has been looked into: the musician Neil Young lives in the area not far from the place were Anna disappeared. Somewhere, in the back of this dustbin I call a mind, I recalled that a member of the band Crazy Horse (whom Neil records with frequently) was denied entry into the United States due to legal troubles and thought I remembered that it was for statutory rape. Letting my mind go to the possibilty that the bandmember could have been in the area in January 1973, I checked the discography of Neil to see if he could have been recording an album at his ranch at that time with Crazy Horse. I could never locate any information about the nature of the bandmember's legal troubles, so eventually I gave up this pursuit. (Annasmom, sometimes ya' just gotta look for zebras too.) Couldn't agree more, my friend, especially when you've looked at most of the horses. But our dream author has a legitimate point. Lots of Coastside kids are home-schooled and don't really circulate in the community. I just ran into a piano parent a couple of days ago and said I couldn't believe how seldom I saw any one of my hundreds of (I'm not exaggerating) former piano students, some of which still live here. I accused them of hiding when they saw me, still feeling guilty about not practicing.

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 06:34 PM
One more quick example of the highlights (lowlights?) of what has been looked into: the musician Neil Young lives in the area not far from the place were Anna disappeared. Somewhere, in the back of this dustbin I call a mind, I recalled that a member of the band Crazy Horse (whom Neil records with frequently) was denied entry into the United States due to legal troubles and thought I remembered that it was for statutory rape. Letting my mind go to the possibilty that the bandmember could have been in the area in January 1973, I checked the discography of Neil to see if he could have been recording an album at his ranch at that time with Crazy Horse. I could never locate any information about the nature of the bandmember's legal troubles, so eventually I gave up this pursuit. (Annasmom, sometimes ya' just gotta look for zebras too.)

I didn't know he lived near there! Yes, a very strange angle to pursue. You are certainly looking at things I would not think much of. I suppose that is possible, but I like your "Occums Razor" thing and really think this is as simple as abduction by someone wanting a child. No one famous or terribly weird involved. No cults or such. Just someone desperate and selfish. Someone who doesn't feel any empathy for others; who puts their own needs above those of others. Someone you wouldn't know because you would never run in those circles. Make sense?

Annasmom
09-20-2006, 06:34 PM
If there is anything I can do, please don't hesitate to ask. I realize I get on odd tangents at times. I have a tendency to approach things from a different perspective then other people. Sometimes seems a curse, but I have also seen it have good results for others. I'm Native American so please forgive my awkward way of approaching problems. Most is cultural differences.

By the by, you can kick the AC out there anytime now .. it is getting kinda warm inland here ;)
Elberethe, it's 50 degrees where we are! One of my sons (Annasbro) was adopted by a Lakota tribe in North Dakota and given the name Plays the Earth. He did some recordings with them. I have always believed that Native Americans are more open to dream messages than some of the rest of us.

Dr. Doogie
09-20-2006, 06:36 PM
Elberethe and your point is well taken. I guess that I may have been hasty in saying "nill" - a more thoughtful answer would have been "unlikely" (but this case gets more unlikely everyday!). This makes the article in the HMB Review even more important. Annasmom, have you seen any hard-copies of the new edition yet?

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 06:37 PM
Couldn't agree more, my friend, especially when you've looked at most of the horses. But our dream author has a legitimate point. Lots of Coastside kids are home-schooled and don't really circulate in the community. I just ran into a piano parent a couple of days ago and said I couldn't believe how seldom I saw any one of my hundreds of (I'm not exaggerating) former piano students, some of which still live here. I accused them of hiding when they saw me, still feeling guilty about not practicing.

We are so on the same wavelength, I don't have to tell you much. My dream told me that too .. this is stuff you already know. I think maybe just kinda put on a back burner. Yes, homeschooling is what I thought as one possibility. If any schooling at all (depending on how low life this person is and face it .. anyone stealing a child is pretty low life). In and out of the community is another possibility. I'm sure you can think of just as many other possibles.

Please don't feel hopeless though. There is a link somewhere. Something that connects this person to you. I don't believe for a minute this was a random abduction. They had opportunity. Just my gut there.

Dr. Doogie
09-20-2006, 06:41 PM
One of my sons (Annasbro) was adopted by a Lakota tribe in North Dakota and given the name Plays the Earth.I was chased off tribal land once in Nevada and was given the name "Plays with Self", but thats a different story...:liar:

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 06:43 PM
Elberethe, it's 50 degrees where we are! One of my sons (Annasbro) was adopted by a Lakota tribe in North Dakota and given the name Plays the Earth. He did some recordings with them. I have always believed that Native Americans are more open to dream messages than some of the rest of us.

Oh what a wonderful name! You must be very proud of him (I am)! I never had an American Native name. What an honor. My son just got home from school (15 years) and saw your post and now he wants a Native American name. Hahah. I will be busy now, as you can imagine. Glad we got to talk some.

Again, keeping you in my prayers and thoughts. I really feel a new hope for the return of Anna. Maybe your son can ask the Lakota to give her a name. I would love to know what they come up with. I bet it would be beautiful!

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 06:45 PM
I was chased off tribal land once in Nevada and was given the name "Plays with Self", but thats a different story...:liar:

:doh: /comfort Doogie. :blowkiss: Funny guy.

Annasmom
09-20-2006, 06:49 PM
Elberethe and your point is well taken. I guess that I may have been hasty in saying "nill" - a more thoughtful answer would have been "unlikely" (but this case gets more unlikely everyday!). This makes the article in the HMB Review even more important. Annasmom, have you seen any hard-copies of the new edition yet? I'm printing it off the web page at this very moment (www.hmbreview.com). WebSleuthers, I have to tell you that both Doogie and I are MUCH better looking than that picture. It looks like a good story to me. What do you think?

Dr. Doogie
09-20-2006, 06:54 PM
Here is a direct link to the story:

http://hmbreview.com/articles/2006/09/20/news/local_news/story02.txt

I haven't read it yet, but the fact that they cropped the picture to remove the top of my head - what they missed is a full, flowing head of hair that would make Sampson envious. :liar:

Elberethe
09-20-2006, 07:25 PM
awww Doogie. /comfort It makes it look like you are bald! It is a good picture though and it is so good to put a face to the people I feel such a connection to. The story is great! They put alot of information in there! This writer really cares.

I'm going to read it again. Have to start dinner though~ haha.

Congratulations on getting the story posted! Wonderful job! :dance: :dance:

Elberethe
09-21-2006, 03:05 PM
Doogie is going to get me more information on Craig when he gets home. I will forward that info to anyone who wants it or I'm sure you can get it from Doogie too. I like to continue any discussion of Craig on this thread so as not to interfere with what others are doing.

I also think it would be a very good idea to explore any other people who were in the area or on the property around the time of the disappearance. I am in no way saying to stop checking out Brody/Waters. That needs to be done. I just think we have enough people interested that we can pursue other ideas at the same time.

My apologies in advance if I'm stepping on any toes. I'm more amateur then any one here, but I just strongly feel that this theory (other stranger abduction) needs to be explored a bit more.

Thanks for understanding,
Elbe

Elberethe
09-29-2006, 01:27 PM
Anyone who wants to see the info Doogie sent me, just drop me an email at elberethe@sbcglobal.net and I will forward it to you.

I will say this much. My hinky meter is still pointing at Craig, but it did drop a couple of volts. Meaning, I can see a bit better now why he is being dismissed as involved. A bit.

I could be interesting to get everyone's thoughts on it, but I get the feeling this is not something Doogie wants discussed in a public forum? I still have my reservations and others may too, but how do you discuss them without offending someone who might be innocent?

I do appreciate Doogie forward the info to me and it did give me reason to pause. Thankyou Sir.

Btw. my hinky meter is very sensitive so don't fret too much about it. :crazy:

Dr. Doogie
09-29-2006, 02:03 PM
Anyone who wants to see the info Doogie sent me, just drop me an email at elberethe@sbcglobal.net and I will forward it to you.
The info that I sent includes phone numbers and addresses that we have obtained for him through Zabasearch and other public databases. This is info that any of you could access on your own, but I would request that nobody contact him directly. When it becomes time to make contact, I would like to do that myself - I don't want to scare him off with numerous strangers contacting him all at once. Thanks!

Elberethe
09-29-2006, 02:07 PM
The info that I sent includes phone numbers and addresses that we have obtained for him through Zabasearch and other public databases. This is info that any of you could access on your own, but I would request that nobody contact him directly. When it becomes time to make contact, I would like to do that myself - I don't want to scare him off with numerous strangers contacting him all at once. Thanks!

hahaha! Me contact him!? I'm chicken! :chicken: :chicken: No, I'm looking for something that might make YOU want to contact him. I do all my work behind the scenes. hehe. :p

Dr. Doogie
10-30-2006, 05:41 PM
Ronald Middleton is a man who was convicted of murdering an acquaintance over a monetary dispute in the 1990's while living on Purissima Creek Road. He buried his victim under an earthen dam on the creek.

This occured just down the road from where Anna disappeared twenty years earlier. Because this put a murderer in the neighborhood and since Middleton disposed of his victim's body in the creek, I wanted to take a closer look at him as a possible perp in Anna's case.

The questions centered around: 1) Was he a resident of PC Road in 1973?, and 2) Did his rap sheet contain any sexual offenses or crimes against children?

I received the following email from the San Mateo County Sheriff Detective assigned Anna's case:

"I was not able to determine where Middleton lived in 1973 and there is
nothing suggesting he would be involved with crimes against children."

It looks like this angle is not worth persuing any more.

Dr. Doogie
02-13-2007, 04:30 PM
Shortly after Anna’s disappearance, Joe Ford and Annasbro visited every house on Purissima Creek Road to see if anyone had seen anything that may be of help in the search. Everyone was as helpful as they could be, until the visited a ramshackle residence at the corner of PC Road and Verde Road. There, they were met by a man wielding a hatchet and was told to leave the property immediately. Evidently, the man moved out shortly afterwards.



Prior to Anna’s disappearance, if something bizarre had happened on the road, most people would have at first suspected this man. This overall suspicion, coupled with the violent reaction to visitors, has bothered Joe all of these years and leads him to wonder if this “Wild Man” may have had some involvement in Anna’s case. As far as we know, he was never questioned by authorities.



The following is a bit confusing (and hopefully Joe and Annasbro can clarify the timeline): Joe and Annasbro returned to the shack after the man moved and gathered some items that had been left behind. There was roll of film negatives (nothing suspicious on them) and some mail and paycheck stubs for a Richard Speder. What is confusing are these items were all dated in January and February of 1980, but Joe had indicated that he gathered them shortly after the man vacated the shack. The timeframe does not match up – if the man moved out within weeks of the disappearance and these items were collected shortly after that, they should be dated 1973. Another couple of possibilities are that the man stayed there until 1980, then moved out, or that he left in 1973, then someone else resided there until 1980 when the materials were discovered.



As a result of the time frame confusion, we do not know if the “Wild Man” and Richard Speder are one in the same. One of the pictures on the roll of negatives shows a young man with long hair and a beard, but Joe Ford does not believe that he is the “Wild Man”. The picture may be of Richard Speder (if Speder is not the Wild Man) or it may be of an acquaintance of Speder. One way to nail this question down is to find someone who knew Speder and see if the man in the picture is him – I am working on that angle now.



I have googled and zabaed the name Richard Speder and found some hits, but nothing that immediately jumps out as suspicious (not an RSO, etc.) If anyone wants to take a shot at researching him, be my guest. If you do find anything, please email me first before posting.

Dr. Doogie
02-13-2007, 04:32 PM
The paycheck stubs for Richard Speder indicate that he worked part time for an organization located in Montara (about ten miles north of Half Moon Bay) named “House of Affirmation”.

The HOA was a live-in treatment facility for defrocked Catholic priests who had been accused pedophilia. The HOA originated in Massachusetts and the Montara branch served all of California. The organization shut down in 1987 due to financial improprieties and lawsuits over molestations. The accusations were that the organization either did not do enough to protect children (releasing supposedly “cured” pedophile priests back into society) or actually helped cover-up molestations by its patients. The founder himself was accused of molestation and fled to Mexico to avoid prosecution. I have not found any record of molestaton accusations concerning the Montara facility.

When I first started looking in to Anna’s case, I found an article in the San Jose Mercury News that mentioned Anna’s name in connection with a Catholic priest named Stephen Keisle who was accused of molestation (he has since been convicted) in the Bay Area. The article specifically linked Keisle to the abduction of Amber Swartz-Garcia from Pinole, CA. His homes in Pinole and Truckee, CA were being searched with “cadaver-sniffing” dogs and ground-penetrating radar for possible burial sites of his victims. No bodies were ever found and he was never charged concerning Swartz-Garcia or any other possible murders. The mention of Anna was in the context of a listing of girls that went missing in the area during the time he lived there. Frighteningly, Keisle specifically mentioned that his preference in victims was “little blond girls”.

There are many gaps in connecting all of this disparate data into a plausible theory. In particular:

1) Is Speder the same as or have connections to the “Wild Man”?

2) Is there any evidence that Speder’s connection to the HOA is anything other than as an employee? Did he maintain any relationships with any of the pedophiles residing there?

3) We know that HOA treated pedophile priests in the area and that Keisle was a pedophile priest in the area – did he have any actually connection to HOA as a patient or to other pedophile priest who were patients?

Needless to say, this is not a development that we hoped to find, but honesty in our search dictates that we must follow the dark leads as well as the positive ones. This is the first possible connection of Anna’s case and pedophilia, so I would ask that everybody be judicious in your postings and questions. I believe that this is worthy of examination, but we also must be careful when discussing this delicate issue. If you have any questions concerning the appropriateness of a post, please email me and I can offer my opinion. Forgive me if I am stating the obvious here, but I would rather say too much up front than try to clean up problems afterward.

smile22
02-13-2007, 04:39 PM
Shortly after Anna’s disappearance, Joe Ford and Annasbro visited every house on Purissima Creek Road to see if anyone had seen anything that may be of help in the search. Everyone was as helpful as they could be, until the visited a ramshackle residence at the corner of PC Road and Verde Road. There, they were met by a man wielding a hatchet and was told to leave the property immediately. Evidently, the man moved out shortly afterwards.



Prior to Anna’s disappearance, if something bizarre had happened on the road, most people would have at first suspected this man. This overall suspicion, coupled with the violent reaction to visitors, has bothered Joe all of these years and leads him to wonder if this “Wild Man” may have had some involvement in Anna’s case. As far as we know, he was never questioned by authorities.



The following is a bit confusing (and hopefully Joe and Annasbro can clarify the timeline): Joe and Annasbro returned to the shack after the man moved and gathered some items that had been left behind. There was roll of film negatives (nothing suspicious on them) and some mail and paycheck stubs for a Richard Speder. What is confusing are these items were all dated in January and February of 1980, but Joe had indicated that he gathered them shortly after the man vacated the shack. The timeframe does not match up – if the man moved out within weeks of the disappearance and these items were collected shortly after that, they should be dated 1973. Another couple of possibilities are that the man stayed there until 1980, then moved out, or that he left in 1973, then someone else resided there until 1980 when the materials were discovered.



As a result of the time frame confusion, we do not know if the “Wild Man” and Richard Speder are one in the same. One of the pictures on the roll of negatives shows a young man with long hair and a beard, but Joe Ford does not believe that he is the “Wild Man”. The picture may be of Richard Speder (if Speder is not the Wild Man) or it may be of an acquaintance of Speder. One way to nail this question down is to find someone who knew Speder and see if the man in the picture is him – I am working on that angle now.



I have googled and zabaed the name Richard Speder and found some hits, but nothing that immediately jumps out as suspicious (not an RSO, etc.) If anyone wants to take a shot at researching him, be my guest. If you do find anything, please email me first before posting.


so if annasbro and joe ford took his stuff after he vacated what year was that? was it in the 70s and what was on those papers? and why the date of 1980 did it hold a connection to this man was something suposed to happen in the 80's? if we can find out the year the stuff was found it might shed some light on things but if it was found in the 70s then the date of 1980 is very strange

Dr. Doogie
02-13-2007, 04:44 PM
so if annasbro and joe ford took his stuff after he vacated what year was that? was it in the 70s and what was on those papers? and why the date of 1980 did it hold a connection to this man was something suposed to happen in the 80's? if we can find out the year the stuff was found it might shed some light on things but if it was found in the 70s then the date of 1980 is very strange
The items were clearly from Jan/Feb 1980, so they were collected sometime after that. They question is: did the Wild Man move out in 1980 (and the idea that he left a few weeks after Anna disappeared is wrong), or did someone else reside in the shack after the Wild Man left (perhaps Speder, if he is not the WM)?

Dr. Doogie
02-13-2007, 06:52 PM
I forgot to mention that this above information was presented to LE and they felt it was too weak and speculative for them to investigate, but they did say it seemed worthy of our looking into it. We would need to fill in the gaps enough to warrant their involvement. My prayer is that we do not find those links, but our ultimate goal needs to remain uncovering the truth of Anna's disappearance.

julianne
02-13-2007, 07:05 PM
Hmmm...interesting. I have found some information on the House of Affirmation (you may already have all this, Dr Doogie). I will just post a link instead of copying some of the contents.

http://www.worcestervoice.com/House.htm

Annasmom
02-13-2007, 07:57 PM
I forgot to mention that this above information was presented to LE and they felt it was too weak and speculative for them to investigate, but they did say it seemed worthy of our looking into it. We would need to fill in the gaps enough to warrant their involvement. My prayer is that we do not find those links, but our ultimate goal needs to remain uncovering the truth of Anna's disappearance. We may be dealing with nightmares here, or even with two different locations. It seems to me that the location of the "shack" pointed out by Annasbro was near our neighbors, the Scholls, and not near the cemetery on Verde Road. I still have not seen a shack near the cemetery, though I suppose there could be one somewhere in the thicket. But my real question is: If this "wild man" and his shack were supposed to have some significance, why was it never even mentioned to me in 30-something years? I first heard of it from Doogie a couple of years ago. If there are any other scenarios from the nightmare realm, I would rather hear about them than to think meaningful evidence is not being brought to my attention.

Dr. Doogie
02-14-2007, 02:45 PM
I spoke with Annasbro last night and he confirmed that the shack in question was located at the corner of Purissima Creek and Verde Roads, next to the Purissima cemetery. He clarified that the "Wild Man" did not "chase" the two of them off the property - it was more a situation of him making it clear that they were not welcome (all the while holding a hatchet in his hand).

He was not able to clarify the seven year gap between when Anna disappeared (1973) and when they searched the shack (1980).

GraceBlue
02-14-2007, 05:35 PM
Thank you Doogie for clarifying that he didnt chase Annasbro and Joe off his property.You know its weird but I had a nightmare last night about that "Wild Man" I dont really remember the dream but I woke up really disturbed and asked my husband to hold me. The image of a crazy man with a hatchet in his hand chasing someone just freaked me out. :eek:
I really think this should be looked into even if Richard Speder isnt the "wild man" Are you going to contact Richard Speder Doogie? You said there was mail in the shack, did the post office deliver mail there? If so, is there any way to get records of people who had mail delivered there? Is the shack still there?

mfmangel1
02-14-2007, 05:48 PM
I don't mean to make light of Richard Speder; however his name reminds me of "Mr. Richard Feder of Fort Lee, New Jersey" from the Roseanne Roseannadanna skits on SNL (my love to Gilda Radner :blowkiss:).

Dr. Doogie
02-14-2007, 05:49 PM
I really think this should be looked into even if Richard Speder isnt the "wild man" Are you going to contact Richard Speder Doogie? You said there was mail in the shack, did the post office deliver mail there? If so, is there any way to get records of people who had mail delivered there? Is the shack still there?
If Speder is not the "Wild Man", then that means he probably moved into the shack after the WM left (after Anna's disappearance) and would not be of any interest to us. I am reluctant to contact Speder at this point until I have a better feel for how he fits in to the whole picture (if he fits in at all).

The mail was addressed to a Post Office Box, so there would be no way to trace who resided at the shack by it.

mysteriew
02-14-2007, 05:56 PM
Can we find who owned the property in 1973? As landlord, they should be able to give info on who the tennants were.

AnnasMom, I know hearing this now is probably upsetting. But I am guessing that with the chaos that probably occurred after she disappeared, and the grief that all were going through....most likely this was probably mentioned to LE and when they dismissed it, it was probably forgotten. After all, why upset you more with what was thought to be useless information? After all they had not found anything concrete. Looking back now, with her disappearance still unsolved it stands out more than it would have then.

julianne
02-14-2007, 05:57 PM
Dr. Doogie--Do you have the actual address of this home? I'm not asking you to put it here, but I'm just wondering. The actual address of the home can give us a history of homeownership & names since it was first built up until the present. That way we can determine if the wild man was or was not Speder.

mysteriew
02-14-2007, 06:14 PM
I am wondering also if the cemetary and the house could possibly be connected....like a caretakers cottage or something.

Dr. Doogie
02-14-2007, 06:17 PM
Can we find who owned the property in 1973? As landlord, they should be able to give info on who the tennants were.
The property was owned by Bank of America at the time. It is unknown if the WM was a renter or a squatter. The condition of the shack was such that it may not have been a legitimate rental property.

AnnasMom, I know hearing this now is probably upsetting. But I am guessing that with the chaos that probably occurred after she disappeared, and the grief that all were going through....most likely this was probably mentioned to LE and when they dismissed it, it was probably forgotten. After all, why upset you more with what was thought to be useless information? After all they had not found anything concrete. Looking back now, with her disappearance still unsolved it stands out more than it would have then.
This is plausible. I also think that time has added weight to this possibility in Joe Ford's mind - remember (in the same way that the case was first investigated as a drowning), the focus of the possible abduction probably focused rightly on George Waters and Brody. With prime suspects such as those two, it was easy to ignore an oddball who lived down the street. It is the discovery of his possible affiliation with a treatment center for pedophiles (not known at the time of the disappearance) that elevates the WM's profile.

mysteriew
02-14-2007, 06:23 PM
I don't know how to use census records. Is there a way to track who lived there through the census?

Do you know who owned the property before Bank of America? Other than development property banks get their property through forclosures- and it sounds as though this might be a the way they acquired this one. When banks take over a property they sometimes allow the previous owners to stay there until a determination to sell is made.

julianne
02-14-2007, 06:33 PM
The property was owned by Bank of America at the time. It is unknown if the WM was a renter or a squatter. The condition of the shack was such that it may not have been a legitimate rental property.


This is plausible. I also think that time has added weight to this possibility in Joe Ford's mind - remember (in the same way that the case was first investigated as a drowning), the focus of the possible abduction probably focused rightly on George Waters and Brody. With prime suspects such as those two, it was easy to ignore an oddball who lived down the street. It is the discovery of his possible affiliation with a treatment center for pedophiles (not known at the time of the disappearance) that elevates the WM's profile.
Thanks, Dr. Doogie. It might still be worth checking out. You can look up San Mateo property records online. I can post a link if you like.

Dr. Doogie
02-14-2007, 06:45 PM
I don't know how to use census records. Is there a way to track who lived there through the census?Specific Census records are confidential for 75 years (which is why 1930 is the most current info you can access today). Property deeds on file is the best we can do, and that is how Joe Ford found that B of A owned the property then. If the WM was the previous owner and was forclosed on, this would at least give us a name to work with.

Dr. Doogie
02-14-2007, 06:47 PM
Thanks, Dr. Doogie. It might still be worth checking out. You can look up San Mateo property records online. I can post a link if you like.
Please!

Annasmom
02-14-2007, 08:57 PM
Can we find who owned the property in 1973? As landlord, they should be able to give info on who the tennants were.

AnnasMom, I know hearing this now is probably upsetting. But I am guessing that with the chaos that probably occurred after she disappeared, and the grief that all were going through....most likely this was probably mentioned to LE and when they dismissed it, it was probably forgotten. After all, why upset you more with what was thought to be useless information? After all they had not found anything concrete. Looking back now, with her disappearance still unsolved it stands out more than it would have then. Thank you, Mysteriew: the voice of sanity. It might be worth noting that the farm where we lived was also being administered by Bank of America, since it was in probate. I don't know if there was a connection.

SherlockJr
02-15-2007, 01:35 AM
Please!

http://www.sanmateocountytaxcollector.org/SMCWPS/pages/secureSearch.jsp

Joe Ford
02-15-2007, 10:31 AM
The items were clearly from Jan/Feb 1980, so they were collected sometime after that. They question is: did the Wild Man move out in 1980 (and the idea that he left a few weeks after Anna disappeared is wrong), or did someone else reside in the shack after the Wild Man left (perhaps Speder, if he is not the WM)?
DRDOOGIE, I strongly support your discretion in this delicate and sensitive inquiry. It must be remembered that the tenant of the property in 1973 is simply a "person of interest".

In hopes of clarifying the time line:

Annasbro and I questioned the neighbors, including the subject of interest, within three weeks of Anna’s disappearance. Except for the disturbing response from that person there was little to note.

In subsequent years, while continuing our search for Anna in other directions, I often drove the Higgins-Purissima Rd. seeking clues or inspiration. It must have been on one of these occasions in 1980 that I noticed the property in question seemed abandoned. It would have been then that I collected the material that ended up in Annasmom’s file. I cannot recall whether Annasbro was with me at that time.

While the person who lived on the property in 1980 may or may not be the same person who lived there in 1973, it seems to me likely that there would be some connection. As noted previously, BofA was the title holder. Because of the relative remoteness and squalid condition of the property it seems unlikely that the bank would have advertised for tenants. More probable would be a direct connection with the previous tenant.

Dr. Doogie
02-15-2007, 11:31 AM
Thanks, Joe. Now it makes sense.

You are correct in your caution. We do not know if the Wild Man has any connection to Anna's disappearance or if the Wild Man is Richard Speder. Because of this, Speder's employment by a treatment facility for pedophiles is (as of now) nothing more than an "interesting" bit of information. We have a few "dots", but will need to connect them together to make a plausible theory. Until that point, Mr. Speder needs to be treated respectfully.

Dr. Doogie
02-15-2007, 08:14 PM
I just recalled something that becomes more important within the new context of focusing on the Wild Man and his shack: Anna's school bus driver contacted me after the HMB Review article and stated that she recalled seeing "a couple" of white vehicles parked near the interesection of Purissima Creek and Verde Roads on the day that Anna disappeared. This is exactly where the Wild Man's shack was located. And recall that Craig Barrick saw two men travelling westbound on PC Road (away from the farm) in a white van. Craig then saw Anna playing in the front yard when he arrived, so Anna was not in the van when Craig saw it.

The Timeline of Relevant Events

12:20 pm - Anna arrives home by bus

Approximately 12:25-12:40 pm - School bus driver sees "a couple" of white vehicles parked near the Wild Man's shack

Approximately 1:45-2:05 pm - Craig sees two men heading away from farm in white van

2:10 pm - Craig arrives at farm and sees Anna playing in front yard

2:15-2:20 pm - Anna is discovered gone

Could the white van have been one of the vehicles parked near the shack that the bus driver saw? That would mean that the van travelled east (away from the shack and toward the farm) for some reason, then west when they were seen by Craig. Could this have been a "scouting run" and they immediately returned and abducted Anna?

I am just thinking out loud here - it is primarily speculation. However, it is curious that the bus driver identified some white vehicles parked at this suspicious location four months ago (I know that this location wasn't of interest at the time she mentioned it, and I do not believe that a "white vehicle" was mentioned in the Review's article - there are an awful lot of things matching up independently with this hypothesis.)

Dr. Doogie
02-15-2007, 08:23 PM
Here is a map to show the relationship between the farm where Anna disappeared and the Wild Man's shack. The school bus was heading southwest (away from the farm) when the driver saw the vehicles near the shack.

InterestedNHelping
02-15-2007, 08:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, where is the cemetery in relation to "The wild man's" house?

mysteriew
02-16-2007, 01:40 AM
The paycheck stubs for Richard Speder indicate that he worked part time for an organization located in Montara (about ten miles north of Half Moon Bay) named “House of Affirmation”.


We may have missed the most obvious source of information on Speder. That is a Catholic organization right? What is the closest Catholic church to there? Does anyone have any contacts there? And would they be able to find out if Speder was on the church roll or if the priests know anything about him?
Many times the Catholic org. would give preference to hires of their own religion, esp. in sensitive positions- even if it was for lower level employment.
I don't know how forthcoming the priests would be if they knew why the inquiry was being made.

rideforfun
02-16-2007, 10:35 AM
Can we find out if Stephen Keisle is still alive? It sounds like he was at one time in prison. Is he still there? If so, I think we need to talk to him. If he has said he liked little blonde girls maybe he'd be willing to say if he ever had contact with Anna. Depending on his health and prison status he might not have much to loose.

Dr. Doogie
02-16-2007, 11:14 AM
A clarification: I spoke again to the bus driver last evening. She said that she saw one white car (not a van) parked on Purissima Creek Road. She recalled it because seeing cars parked on the road was rare. The location was not exactly at the Wild Man's shack, but was west of the farm on PC Road about half way between the farm and the intersection with Verde Rd.

Annasmom mentioned last night that she believes that George Waters owned a white car in 1973.

Dr. Doogie
02-16-2007, 11:26 AM
Just out of curiosity, where is the cemetery in relation to "The wild man's" house?It was between the shack and Hwy. 1 (Cabrillo Highway). The property that the shack was on is next door to the cemetery.

mfmangel1
02-16-2007, 05:23 PM
A clarification: I spoke again to the bus driver last evening. She said that she saw one white car (not a van) parked on Purissima Creek Road. She recalled it because seeing cars parked on the road was rare. The location was not exactly at the Wild Man's shack, but was west of the farm on PC Road about half way between the farm and the intersection with Verde Rd.

Annasmom mentioned last night that she believes that George Waters owned a white car in 1973.
Was it previously discussed what model car GW had at that time? For some reason I am thinking we discussed a VW or Volvo or I am just not thinking clearly? I am too tired to go searching out threads right now. I will check the threads a bit later. Sorry.

Is there any possibility there was any kind of insignia or writing on the car the bus driver saw?

Annasbro
02-16-2007, 05:32 PM
It was a mid sixties, white vw squareback

MagicRose99
02-16-2007, 06:33 PM
It was a mid sixties, white vw squareback
In other words... a white car like the bus driver saw?!?!

Dr. Doogie
02-16-2007, 06:43 PM
It was a mid sixties, white vw squareback
In talking with Annasmom about this, she confirmed that he had a white VW squareback when the family still lived together. She was not sure what model he had in 1973 (Mazda?), but she knows that it was white also. The bus driver cannot recall what make and model she saw (it is an amazing feat of memory that she remembers as much as she does!).

Dr. Doogie
02-16-2007, 06:46 PM
It just dawned on me: when Joe Ford tried to provoke GW and Brody into saying something about Anna (while Joe was listening from the room next door in the hotel), he sent GW a letter saying that someone had seen a white car similar to his in the area around the time Anna disappeared. This was made up, just to get a reaction. Funny thing is... it was also true, it just wasn't known at the time.

Annasmom
02-16-2007, 07:39 PM
It just dawned on me: when Joe Ford tried to provoke GW and Brody into saying something about Anna (while Joe was listening from the room next door in the hotel), he sent GW a letter saying that someone had seen a white car similar to his in the area around the time Anna disappeared. This was made up, just to get a reaction. Funny thing is... it was also true, it just wasn't known at the time.
Actually, I don't think it was made up. It was just that lots of similar cars were seen around that time, and nobody saw the driver of the car Joe mentioned. I have in an early report which we took to LE that GW was driving a grey 1970 VW with the license plate ARH..had he traded in the white 60s VW squareback? Joe Ford would know, since he followed GW's car. Also, I thought that keys to a Mazda were among GW's things found at the hotel after his death.

mfmangel1
02-16-2007, 11:30 PM
It was a mid sixties, white vw squareback
Happy I had not just imagined the VW! :D

mfmangel1
02-16-2007, 11:40 PM
Actually, I don't think it was made up. It was just that lots of similar cars were seen around that time, and nobody saw the driver of the car Joe mentioned. I have in an early report which we took to LE that GW was driving a grey 1970 VW with the license plate ARH..had he traded in the white 60s VW squareback? Joe Ford would know, since he followed GW's car. Also, I thought that keys to a Mazda were among GW's things found at the hotel after his death.
So now we need to know if, when and why he perhaps traded/sold the white VW...Exactly what he was driving at the time of Anna's disappearance...Did he trade cars immediately after Anna's disappearance?

A lot of questions!

I assume the car he was driving at the time of his death was taken by his family.

I also wonder if the Wildman or Richard Speder drove a vehicle regularly and parked it at the shack. Speder had to have a vehicle to go back and forth to work unless someone picked him up and returned him to the shack. What type of vehicle would they have driven?

Annasmom
02-17-2007, 02:23 AM
So now we need to know if, when and why he perhaps traded/sold the white VW...Exactly what he was driving at the time of Anna's disappearance...Did he trade cars immediately after Anna's disappearance?

A lot of questions!

I assume the car he was driving at the time of his death was taken by his family.

I also wonder if the Wildman or Richard Speder drove a vehicle regularly and parked it at the shack. Speder had to have a vehicle to go back and forth to work unless someone picked him up and returned him to the shack. What type of vehicle would they have driven?I don't have the answer to these questions, and I don't know if it is possible to get the answers...except that GW's brother probably took care of the car and whatever else (including expenses) was around at the time of George's death. He gave away the clothing and gave the files and personal papers to us.

mfmangel1
02-17-2007, 02:36 AM
I don't have the answer to these questions, and I don't know if it is possible to get the answers...except that GW's brother probably took care of the car and whatever else (including expenses) was around at the time of George's death. He gave away the clothing and gave the files and personal papers to us.

Annasmom, I also doubt if it's possible to answer these questions.
I guess I was just thinking out loud or typing "out loud". :( Sorry.

Annasmom
02-17-2007, 07:55 PM
Annasmom, I also doubt if it's possible to answer these questions.
I guess I was just thinking out loud or typing "out loud". :( Sorry.
Omigosh, don't apologize! I am so grateful that you're putting your thinking to work on this big mystery.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-05-2007, 11:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, where is the cemetery in relation to "The wild man's" house?

I was just reading an interesting article on the Purissima Cemetery. It seems that the Shack is actually an old school house. The cemetery and the school house are the last remains of the small town. Read here:
http://www.sfgenealogy.com/sanmateo/smcempu.htm

We have some property that has an old run down cemetery & an old school house in the middle of the acreage. It has been rumored that our school house, used to attract run-a-ways in it many years ago. (Not important to the case, but interesting)

Also, here is a link of some pictures of the cemetery.
http://purissimacemetery.shutterfly.com/action/

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-05-2007, 11:35 AM
One other thing. It appears that the woman who wrote the above referenced article did most of her research in 2005, though she collaborated with previous research of the cemetery. I wonder if any of the genealogist mentioned remember anything about someone who would have lived there. Her e-mail is listed. Maybe she's heard stories of the "Wild Man" from others who researched the cemetery before her. What do you think? Yes? No?

Dr. Doogie
04-05-2007, 11:58 AM
Sounds like a good idea to me!

Annasbro
04-05-2007, 12:34 PM
The school house was still standing when we lived in the canyon. I believed it burned down after we moved away. I dont recall it being suspicious and I think the people that were living there or owned it stayed there in the rebuilt shack or humble house. I remember the structure being non-descript. The original School was a nice building with big south facing windows. We were sad when it burned. It was the last real structure from the original town of Purissima I believe. The town had an interesting history as one of the last stops on the Ocean Shore Railroad that never connected to Santa Crruz, causing the town to decline and eventually go away. Maybe someone could dig up the story in the Half Moon Bay Review from when it burned down.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-05-2007, 12:54 PM
So the school house and the shack where 2 seperate buildings? :doh:

Dr. Doogie
04-05-2007, 01:34 PM
Among the photos that were found by Joe Ford and annasbro in the abandoned shack was a picture that showed what appears to be part of the shack's entrance. I will hunt down those pictures and post them tonight (hopefully).

Annasbro
04-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Joe can verify this but to my knowledge - the shack and the school house are two different structures. There was a humble house built on the foundation of the burned down school house. The shack where the "wild man" lived was across the street and west of the cemetery in the grove of eucalyptus trees. The school house structure was directly north of the cemetery. Here are a couple of images of the layout

169

170

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-06-2007, 09:09 AM
Wow, Joe Ford is Good, he was way ahead of everyone on this one! Here is the response I received from the cemetery lady:



Hi L.,
I know about Anna Waters because I've been in contact with her step-father (Mr. Ford). He emailed me soon after I transcribed the cemetery and we had a nice long email chat about local history and his step-daughter. Nice guy.
I'm only 36 years old, and I've lived here on the coast for about 4 years, I'm defintely a "newcomer"
around these parts. So aside from the knowledge of the case that I got from Mr. Ford and what I was able to find on the internet, I know nothing of an old man or what might have occurred back in the 1970s (I was just a kid then myself, about Anna's age).
The 1930s listing of graves in the cemetery were done by a woman who today is very likely dead (If you figure she was about 30 when she did the transcribing, she would have been born about 1900, even with a date of birth in the 1910s, she's likely dead today). Her transcription is in the San Mateo County archives, which is how I came into posession of it, so I had no contact at all with her or her descendants. The folks who turned me on to the location of her work also visited the cemetery around 2005. No one else helped me with the transcription.
However, there are many, many old timers here in Half Moon Bay who have lived here their whole lives, and belong to families that have been here for generations. These folks have some serious stories to tell if you give them half a chance. I have run into many of them around town while at the other old cemeteries here and have learned some very interesting things about the history of HMB. I don't know if anyone has tried talking to any of them about this mysterious old man, but I wonder if any of them would know anything. Half Moon Bay is like many other small towns, and I imagine it was more so in the 1970s...
there are folks who know things and they're usually not too hard to find. So that's the only word of assistance I can offer you.
I'm a mother of young ones myself, and Anna's story just breaks my heart for her poor mother and step-father and the others who loved her and don't know what happened to her. I very much wish I had some good information to offer you.
D.

InterestedNHelping
04-10-2007, 01:16 PM
While looking at Anna's story, I was also researching my own family history and found that many of my relatives were buried in that cemetery by the 'wild man'. I know many of the old bay area families as they married each other and the lines cross throughout our histories. I have asked some very old relatives (98yrs) that might know something, but no luck so far. My particular line of people had moved to the east bay area from the 1860's on. I am currently looking into finding anyone that may still live in the area, and if I find anyone I will be sure to let you all know. I also know decendants of the line of people who owned the farm where annasmom lived, but I cannot seem to find anyone who is directly related or knows anything at all, none of them that I could find live anywhere near there, they have all moved east, and the history is lost to some of them. I will keep trying, I have good connections, but nothing that comes close enough to the area to do any good at this time.
(ps. I am Anna's age, so I do not know many of the 'old-timers" :-)

Dr. Doogie
05-24-2007, 03:12 PM
This thread will be for discussion for possible involvement by various cults. If you have a theory that concerns organizations such as Synannon or the People's Temple, please post them here.

Cubby
05-24-2007, 03:33 PM
OT- Doogie, did you ever contact the guy who blogged about Zim's? I realize it is a long shot, but wonder with his narcissim if he ever shared comments or theorys about bad parents, adoption........

Also, was wondering if you were going to start a new topic with a "recap". Possibly indicating/bullet pointing previous theorys and what has been eliminated.

Doog, you are doing a fantastic job! I know we were all surpised, the dna results were not what we expected, but we need to persevere.....

Anna is out there somewhere, and something is telling me we need to keep figuring out how to get this info accessible to where she might be. A way for her to see it......... We are exploring the adoption sights..... Would like more idea's for expansion........

big hugs....... (there is a smiley I see on another board with a happy face which just wraps arms around..... wish it were here...... pretend you see it.)

Dr. Doogie
05-24-2007, 04:49 PM
OT- Doogie, did you ever contact the guy who blogged about Zim's? I realize it is a long shot, but wonder with his narcissim if he ever shared comments or theorys about bad parents, adoption...

I am attempting contact and will try again tonight (I don't want to leave a "bizarre" message on his answering machine that would frighten him away). I am pessimistic that he will have anything of value, but I do want follow this through to its conclusion so we can know for sure.

Cubby
05-24-2007, 05:08 PM
I am attempting contact and will try again tonight (I don't want to leave a "bizarre" message on his answering machine that would frighten him away). I am pessimistic that he will have anything of value, but I do want follow this through to its conclusion so we can know for sure.


I was a realtor at one time, it amazed me how much people spilled. I recall some guy pulling up his pant leg to show me his ankle bracelet and talking about his previous drug dealings while I was waiting on a client for a showing.

You really never know, and showing interest,..........

Gossip like vanity never goes out of style.

In my circle, I ran into John Fecarrota, I'll never forget trying to engage him in conversation......when I was dumb and a teenager. ( mobster gunned down - supposedly botched the spilatro bros hit...... which was supposed to have happened in Bensenville and Not Indiana......) and a few others...... Grace and John Marcantante...... DV issue, Melky Terry.....and a few other locals -

Don't discount anything...... My old roomie spent 2 yrs in prison, and it wsa his arrogance, not getting caught and 20 or so years of trouble.... that lead to my sitting and listening.........

InterestedNHelping
05-24-2007, 06:33 PM
I cannot seem to understand that over 200 people (mostly children) could be buried in Oakland, with absolutely no documentation of who any of them were. Someone, somewhere, that escaped Jonestown, or the FBI or someone, must have some sort of records that belonged to all those people. ESPECIALLY if they were receiving state monies for SS or disability. How can we research this avenue further?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-24-2007, 07:02 PM
Here is a little snippet from an e-mail I received from Fielding McGehee III:


There was very little information taken from the bodies in Jonestown. It's been a frustration since the first week, and here we are 29 years later, paying the price again. There were no tissue samples taken, no autopsies of any meaning (only seven performed out of all the bodies, and most had been previously embalmed, making the autopsies meaningless), no fingerprint records, nothing. Photos did not/would not have helped either. That's the reason there ARE so many unidentified. In other words, in terms of preserving a record for future technology to take another crack at, it just plain wasn't done.

Annasmom
05-24-2007, 07:17 PM
Here is a little snippet from an e-mail I received from Fielding McGehee III:




Maybe someone could remind me why we're considering the Jonestown victims in our search for Anna.

Dr. Doogie
05-24-2007, 07:41 PM
Maybe someone could remind me why we're considering the Jonestown victims in our search for Anna.

It is because of the perceived resemblence between Georgianna Brady and Anna (both in name and in looks). You had commented earlier that you did not believe that Georgianna was Anna based on her picture.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-24-2007, 09:41 PM
Maybe someone could remind me why we're considering the Jonestown victims in our search for Anna.

Below is a post I made in February. I need to clear up a few things that I have learned since then. First there where 408 UID (mostly children) from Jonestown, and not the 234 I first reported from a different source. Secondly, I'm not positive Georgiann Brady is Anna, but still, there are so many coincidences that she could have very well still been there. With all due respect, I know this is not an angle anyone would like to explore, but there are 300+ kids buried in Evergreen Cemetery who where thought to be originally from the area, (that's why the SF/Oakland area was chosen as a final resting place) None of them have been identified. There is so much more I have previously posted, but was rarely commented on.

Jones moved his congregation to the San Fransisco Area in 1965, and by 1972/73 his socialist views where becoming very wide known, and spread to the LA area. At this point the Peoples Temple was running nursing homes which was also rumored to house up to 150 foster children. Jones was excepting anyone into his "Temple" who would benefit him, (ie. social security benefits, welfare, insurance policies (?)...) As early as 1974 a small group of "pioneers" moved to Guyana to begin the building of the compound. By 1977 there where around 1000 followers living on the Guyana Compound, about 1/3 children. After the mass suicide/murder by drinking Cyanide poison mixed in a grape drink, (11-18-78), over 900 bodies where left to decompose in the blistering sun of Guyana for several days. After it was all said and done, 234 unidentified people, (mostly children) where buried in a mass grave at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland, CA

In the "Plan" the L's could be the Laytons (Several members of this family where devote followers of Jones as well as his Benefactors & Mistresses) - I have yet to tie them to GW/GB Though the setting up a life insurance policy with Anna as the beneficiary and later changing it to ?? (Jones/Layton/Peoples Temple) to secure her place there seems possible.

Brody & Waters supported the socialist society

Interestingly Brody was cremated/funeral was at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland. Why there with all the hundreds of other options?

Waters committed suicide by drinking Poison. A gun to the head, overdose of drugs or jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge would all be popular options, but he drank poison. I wonder what kind of poison it was?



PS: I have since learned that it was cyanide Waters drank, but someone said he was mimicking someone else, not Jonestown. I have also wrote to Debra Layton 4 times with no response.

Cubby
05-24-2007, 09:56 PM
Below is a post I made in February. I need to clear up a few things that I have learned since then. First there where 408 UID (mostly children) from Jonestown, and not the 234 I first reported from a different source. Secondly, I'm not positive Georgiann Brady is Anna, but still, there are so many coincidences that she could have very well still been there. With all due respect, I know this is not an angle anyone would like to explore, but there are 300+ kids buried in Evergreen Cemetery who where thought to be originally from the area, (that's why the SF/Oakland area was chosen as a final resting place) None of them have been identified. There is so much more I have previously posted, but was rarely commented on.

PS: I have since learned that it was cyanide Waters drank, but someone said he was mimicking someone else, not Jonestown. I have also wrote to Debra Layton 4 times with no response.

If I recall, the GW cyanide connection had to do with some interest in Hitler and GW wrote to someone inquiring about the "recipe"/concoction.

I, like Doogie and Annasmom saw no resemblence between Georgieanne, her siblings and Anna.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall any reference mentioned in the BFH with any cults other than GW's interest in " investing " or some kind of interest in synanon.

Shadow205
05-25-2007, 08:34 AM
In reference to the discussions that we have had in the past concerning Synanon and the picture of the little girl there. I was reading the guest book for the Synanon Museum this morning and came across what I think is an interesting statement.


"I was not a Synanon kid, but a child who my parents dropped off there."

http://www.synanon.org/synanon/Museum/GuestBook.cfm

I have said it before and I will say it again. I think Anna could have been taken there by the 2 Georges and blended right in. I just can't get past the picture of the little girl who looked so much like Anna. The name "Christian" on the box was just icing on the cake.
I have emailed the person who posted that remeark in the guest book. I will post the reply if I get one.

christine2448
05-25-2007, 08:38 AM
In reference to the discussions that we have had in the past concerning Synanon and the picture of the little girl there. I was reading the guest book for the Synanon Museum this morning and came across what I think is an interesting statement.


"I was not a Synanon kid, but a child who my parents dropped off there."

http://www.synanon.org/synanon/Museum/GuestBook.cfm

I have said it before and I will say it again. I think Anna could have been taken there by the 2 Georges and blended right in. I just can't get past the picture of the little girl who looked so much like Anna. The name "Christian" on the box was just icing on the cake.
I have emailed the person who posted that remeark in the guest book. I will post the reply if I get one.

I am right there with you on this. I just want to know who the girl is..that's all, then I can move on from it. Great find Shadow, and excellent theory, IMO, FWIW.

MagicRose99
05-25-2007, 10:09 AM
If I recall, the GW cyanide connection had to do with some interest in Hitler and GW wrote to someone inquiring about the "recipe"/concoction.

I, like Doogie and Annasmom saw no resemblence between Georgieanne, her siblings and Anna.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall any reference mentioned in the BFH with any cults other than GW's interest in " investing " or some kind of interest in synanon.

I agree Cubby... while Synanon may be a possibility, I just cannot get into the Jonestown theory.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-25-2007, 10:13 AM
If I recall, the GW cyanide connection had to do with some interest in Hitler and GW wrote to someone inquiring about the "recipe"/concoction.

I, like Doogie and Annasmom saw no resemblence between Georgieanne, her siblings and Anna.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall any reference mentioned in the BFH with any cults other than GW's interest in " investing " or some kind of interest in synanon.

I know that many didn't Cubby, but Doogie did at first as well as a few others. I was not convinced until I made contact with several (6)ex-Peoples Temples members who assured me they are not the same girls. I just don't feel comfortable dismissing a gut feeling until I know for sure.

It's kind of like the Synanon Picture. It's brought up every few months, people look it over, 10 post are made on it and then it goes away and then it comes back up.......I wanted to make absolutely SURE that Georgiann was not Anna, so we, (well, I guess just me) wouldn't have to rehash it every few weeks. I posted here a few days ago that I am pretty much convinced that Georgiann is NOT Anna.

With that said, there are 408 unidentified (mostly children) still without a name. Even though Georgiann is not Anna, that doesn't mean that one of the other 408 are not her.

As I said before, last week I sent another letter to my contacts with pictures of Anna attached with detailed information of her disappearance, including info on the Georges. No one replied until Today.

InterestedNHelping
05-25-2007, 10:43 AM
Quite some time ago I commented that "children were "Dropped off" at Synanon, but heard no response or comments about it. I still wonder about the same thing, and not just about Anna, but about lots of other missing children. I want to know how that was possible, dropping off, and 400+ children with no identity...someone, somewhere, knows how, why and who...
I hope I am wrong and none of these are Anna, I never thought the Synanon girl pic was Anna, but it takes alot of viewpoints to find out the truths, so everyone should explore what they feel is important. I think there must be a way to know more about the UID's at Evergreen, and possibly whom GB was buried next to, or near, or associated with possibly...

SherlockJr
05-25-2007, 10:58 AM
This is an e-mail I received last year from a woman who lived at the Synanon and identified both girls in the picture.

The school was for the children of residents it was not a boarding
school. It would have been highly unlikely a child would be there who
didn't have both or at least one parent in Synanon, no matter who the
parent was or how much they could 'afford.' The school was an integral
part of the community

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-25-2007, 10:59 AM
I agree Cubby... while Synanon may be a possibility, I just cannot get into the Jonestown theory.

Yes, it's a grizzly thought especially knowing the outcome of the majority of the Peoples Temple members.

This is why I believe there is a connection:

GB/GW lived a few blocks from the Peoples Temple Head Quarters
PT members walked the streets daily passing out literature & news letters to every nearby residents
PT was a Socialist movement - GB/GW had ties to/interested in the Socialist movement
(Rumored)PT had strong political ties - Brody claimed to be into politics
In 1973 PT had several "homes" they ran for elderly and foster children
408 UID buried in mass grave in Evergreen Cemetery - GB is cremated at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland when there where many facilities closer to where he lived.
900 PT members committed suicide drinking a cyanide poison concoction - GW committed suicide drinking a cyanide poison concoction.

With all due respect to Cubby, Hitler took a cyanide PILL and shot himself in the head. If Waters was mimicking him, he would have killed himself much differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-25-2007, 11:05 AM
...t Evergreen, and possibly whom GB was buried next to, or near, or associated with possibly...


Brody was cremated and supposedly his ashes where with Waters...I wonder where they are now?

ETA: Just found the post that Annasmom stated that the facility disposed of the ashes

MagicRose99
05-25-2007, 11:08 AM
Yes, it's a grizzly thought especially knowing the outcome of the majority of the Peoples Temples members.

This is why I beleive there is a connection:

GB/GW lived a few blocks from the Peoples Temple Head Quarters
PT members walked the streets daily passing out literature & news letters to every nearby resident
PT was a Socialist movement - GB/GW had ties to/interested in the Socialist movement
PT had strong political ties - Brody claimed to be into politics
In 1973 PT had several "homes" they ran for elderly and foster children
408 UID buried in mass grave in Evergreen Cemetery - GB is cremated at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland when there where many facilities closer to where he lived.
900 PT members committed suicide drinking a cyanide poison concoction - GW committed suicide drinking a cyanide poison concoction.

With all due respect to Cubby, Hitler took a cyanide PILL and shot himself in the head. If Waters was mimicking him, he would have killed himself much differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler

You're definitely entitled to your opinions and theories and I wish you luck in your endeavor.

But, personally, I just cannot get into it. I believe that other possibilites are more probable.

christine2448
05-25-2007, 11:22 AM
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49785

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-25-2007, 11:39 AM
You're definitely entitled to your opinions and theories and I wish you luck in your endeavor.

But, personally, I just cannot get into it. I believe that other possibilites are more probable.

Would you mind sharing what possibilities you think are more probable? I personally think that every theory should be totally researched until proven right or wrong. Thanks.

Shadow205
05-25-2007, 12:14 PM
This is an e-mail I received last year from a woman who lived at the Synanon and identified both girls in the picture.

The school was for the children of residents it was not a boarding
school. It would have been highly unlikely a child would be there who
didn't have both or at least one parent in Synanon, no matter who the
parent was or how much they could 'afford.' The school was an integral
part of the community


Not according to this former member:
"I was not a Synanon kid, but a child who my parents dropped off there."

http://www.synanon.org/synanon/Museum/GuestBook.cfm

I remember hen you were told that but if it is the child of "George" which I think that is what you were told. I don't think I can agree with that. Would you please pm me who the little girl is supposed to be and maybe I can get off of that theory.

MagicRose99
05-25-2007, 01:01 PM
Would you mind sharing what possibilities you think are more probable? I personally think that every theory should be totally researched until proven right or wrong. Thanks.

I believe in the possibilities:
1) accident: falling in old well, creek, etc.
2) abduction for nefarious purposes
3) abduction because someone wanted a child
4) Synanon is a possibility to me, because, no matter how "sick" the George's were, I can see them giving Anna to Synanon... but I cannot see them having anything to do with Jones/Jonestown, because Jones would have conflicted with GB's self-delusioned image that HE was a "guru" himself.

christine2448
05-25-2007, 02:15 PM
This is an e-mail I received last year from a woman who lived at the Synanon and identified both girls in the picture.

The school was for the children of residents it was not a boarding
school. It would have been highly unlikely a child would be there who
didn't have both or at least one parent in Synanon, no matter who the
parent was or how much they could 'afford.' The school was an integral
part of the community


I believe we may have been speaking to the same person, but NOT 100% on that...anyhow...I don't see anywhere where she says she knows who this specific child is, name, something. I'm just not willing to toss this to the side until we have something concrete telling us who this child is. Do you have something that you can share with us? THanks Sherlock, I so much admire all the work you have done on Anna's case.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-25-2007, 02:56 PM
I believe in the possibilities:
1) accident: falling in old well, creek, etc.
2) abduction for nefarious purposes
3) abduction because someone wanted a child
4) Synanon is a possibility to me, because, no matter how "sick" the George's were, I can see them giving Anna to Synanon... but I cannot see them having anything to do with Jones/Jonestown, because Jones would have conflicted with GB's self-delusioned image that HE was a "guru" himself.

These are all very good possibilities, though I have to wonder why you would think Brody/Waters would turn Anna over to Charles Dederich, but not Jim Jones. These 2 groups are almost synonymous with each other. It is stated in many web sites that CD was a brain washer, practiced in mind control, a murderer, believed in commune living and was mentally ill. The Synanon ultimately became a cultishChurch of Synanon in the 1970s. He forced married couples to break up and take new partners. They severely beat children who misbehaved or ran away.

These facts and many, many more are true of both "cults" Jim & Chuck where 2 of a kind. They where made from the same mold. Actually the treatment of children appeared to be much better in PT, they where only locked up for a few days as apposed to face beatings and slamming against walls as in Synanon.

Thanks for answering, your theories are all very possible but as respectfully as I can say it, If one feels that Brody would feel superior or had conflicting interests to Jones, he would most definitely have to feel the same way about Dederich. Dederich was just as bad as Jones. If the IRS would not have shut the Synanon down, there is no doubt in my mind that many would have died there too.

The following quote comes from:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/synanon/synanon5.html


Nonetheless, most news coverage of Synanon compared it with People's Temple and Dederich with Jim Jones. With Dederich barred by the court from running Synanon, and with the Internal Revenue Service taking away its tax exemption, the last of the cult died out in the 1990s. However, as late as 1996, two or three former members tried to resurrect a version of the group at the old Badger facility, but that land ultimately was taken over by the government as well.

Annasmom
05-25-2007, 03:01 PM
Yes, it's a grizzly thought especially knowing the outcome of the majority of the Peoples Temple members.

This is why I believe there is a connection:

GB/GW lived a few blocks from the Peoples Temple Head Quarters
PT members walked the streets daily passing out literature & news letters to every nearby residents
PT was a Socialist movement - GB/GW had ties to/interested in the Socialist movement
(Rumored)PT had strong political ties - Brody claimed to be into politics
In 1973 PT had several "homes" they ran for elderly and foster children
408 UID buried in mass grave in Evergreen Cemetery - GB is cremated at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland when there where many facilities closer to where he lived.
900 PT members committed suicide drinking a cyanide poison concoction - GW committed suicide drinking a cyanide poison concoction.

With all due respect to Cubby, Hitler took a cyanide PILL and shot himself in the head. If Waters was mimicking him, he would have killed himself much differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler

I have a question and a few clarifications: Didn't the Jonestown victims have to have passports? George Waters and George Brody had no sympathy for or connection to Socialism, and there is no reason at all to assume this. Dr. Waters was not emulating Hitler. Without going into this any further, I will just say that there was correspondence in his files which proves otherwise. Both Brody and Waters were against organized religion, which makes the Peoples Temple hypothesis extremely remote. I agree with you that no possibility should be dismissed until disproved, but there are some unfounded assumptions in this case.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-25-2007, 04:30 PM
I have a question and a few clarifications: Didn't the Jonestown victims have to have passports? George Waters and George Brody had no sympathy for or connection to Socialism, and there is no reason at all to assume this. Dr. Waters was not emulating Hitler. Without going into this any further, I will just say that there was correspondence in his files which proves otherwise. Both Brody and Waters were against organized religion, which makes the Peoples Temple hypothesis extremely remote. I agree with you that no possibility should be dismissed until disproved, but there are some unfounded assumptions in this case.

Yes, they did need passports. I'm sorry to say I assumed that you didn't know if she was ever granted one when your wrote this:

1st Thread on Theory # 2 dated 11-13-06 Post # 630


Annasmom wrote:
If the lady was aware of the case, she wasn't saying anything. They had told me previously that they could not give me any information on a passport for Anna, not even if she had one. Though she has been missing for such a long time, privacy laws prevent their giving out information about her. I had to send a death certificate for George, along with other documentation, to get this far. It has taken a long time, but at least we'll have that bit done before too long. The thing I find curious is that they found SEVERAL applications, not just renewals. I don't know what that means, but I'm intrigued.


I sorry that I assumed that the Georges where involved with the socialist movement. I see now that GW sister was involved, and she was the only one who Brody didn't bash. I must have gotten confused when you wrote this:

1st thread Theory #2 dated 1-7-07 Post #733


Annasmom wrote:
wanted to add this: Though none of the occult terms and fields mentioned in this post ever came up to my knowledge, GB did claim he could "read the akashic records" (he pronounced this ah-kay-shic) and he used this claim to "authenticate" his predictions and analyses. An interesting thing which comes up with regard to this post is that GW's sister, a member of the Socialist Workers Party, was the only member of the family who didn't come under fire from Brody.


I think you misunderstood what I wrote, I never said/thought GW was emulating Hitler, "Cubby" posted she thought that. I think he was emulating Jonestown. Cubby might have assumed that when you posted this:

1 Thread Theory #2 dated: 1-7-07 Post #731


Annasmom wrote:
This all makes sense to me. Brody did refer to Hitler a number of times in my hearing, and GW actually wrote two letters to the widow of a famous Nazi, asking her specifics about poisons. This post seems significant, and I need to read it several more times.


As far as religion, the Peoples temple was more of a commune than that of a religion. In your book, near the end of Chapter 6 you wrote that George had mentioned you joining a commune with 2 single men and 2 single women. Again I was under the assumption he was into communal living, not particularly a religion.

I'm sorry if I have offended you in anyway. I can't imagine the pain you have gone through for so many years. After more discussion with Mr. McGehee today, the world will never know who is buried in that mass grave of children anyway. It will never be allowed to be excavated. It is pointless even if someone from the Peoples Temple did possibly recognize Anna's picture. It can never be proven.

I wish you only the very best in your search.

Annasmom
05-25-2007, 07:08 PM
Yes, they did need passports. I'm sorry to say I assumed that you didn't know if she was ever granted one when your wrote this:

1st Thread on Theory # 2 dated 11-13-06 Post # 630

read Theory #2 dated: 1-7-07 Post #731[/U]

I'm sorry if I have offended you in anyway. I can't imagine the pain you have gone through for so many years. After more discussion with Mr. McGehee today, the world will never know who is buried in that mass grave of children anyway. It will never be allowed to be excavated. It is pointless even if someone from the Peoples Temple did possibly recognize Anna's picture. It can never be proven.

I wish you only the very best in your search.

No, no! You have not offended me, not at all!!! You have done all this research, and we need you here! Don't leave us! I just wanted to clarify a couple of points. My question about passports had to do with identifying the children in that mass grave. If they all needed passports to get to Jonestown, I don't know why there's still any question about the identities. I did not see any family resemblance with the little girl you were looking at, but certainly I DID look. Anything is possible. I am guessing that the seemingly callous method of their burial had to do with public health concerns, but surely there is a record...I briefly considered whether Anna might have been involved at the time we learned of the Jonestown tragedy, but it seemed so unlikely, given the secrecy of the two Georges and the way they avoided any connection with any established groups...if Brody couldn't be the top gun, he didn't want anything to do with it.

mfmangel1
05-26-2007, 04:13 AM
After having contact with LE and spending a great deal of time together recently, perhaps Dr. Doogie and Annasmom have better suggestions as to what direction they would like for us to follow in the investigation now.

We don't want to waste our resources in a million different directions or travel over the same old territory.

I am sure there are numerous viable and legitimate theories for us to follow.

Annasmom
05-26-2007, 11:39 AM
After having contact with LE and spending a great deal of time together recently, perhaps Dr. Doogie and Annasmom have better suggestions as to what direction they would like for us to follow in the investigation now.

We don't want to waste our resources in a million different directions or travel over the same old territory.

I am sure there are numerous viable and legitimate theories for us to follow.
Mfangel1, I'll post on the General thread regarding Detective Gilletti's visit yesterday.

Cubby
05-26-2007, 04:11 PM
Interested woman, Thank you for finding the following old post:


I think you misunderstood what I wrote, I never said/thought GW was emulating Hitler, "Cubby" posted she thought that. I think he was emulating Jonestown. Cubby might have assumed that when you posted this:

1 Thread Theory #2 dated: 1-7-07 Post #731


Quote:
Annasmom wrote:
This all makes sense to me. Brody did refer to Hitler a number of times in my hearing, and GW actually wrote two letters to the widow of a famous Nazi, asking her specifics about poisons. This post seems significant, and I need to read it several more times.


Too clear this up, since it appears to have been misunderstood. I never meant to imply GW was emulating, or even had an obsession with Hitler. I should have been more clear and I had assumed he had an interest based on the letter(s) he wrote. I don't know why he wrote that, could have been for his work in medicine........

Annasmom,
I am very sorry if I offended you in any way. If I did, it was certainly unintended. I have the utmost admiration for you, your family/friends and perseverance. I can only imagine what you have and continue to go through.

Annas case weighs on my mind daily. I think about it often, and sometimes even dream about trying to find ways for answers. It's frustrating, at least for me I can't do more........ But know we/I am here for you, all you or doogie or anyone needs to do is say the word, and I'll do my best to help in any way I can.

Annasmom
05-26-2007, 06:22 PM
Annasmom,
I am very sorry if I offended you in any way. If I did, it was certainly unintended. I have the utmost admiration for you, your family/friends and perseverance. I can only imagine what you have and continue to go through.

Annas case weighs on my mind daily. I think about it often, and sometimes even dream about trying to find ways for answers. It's frustrating, at least for me I can't do more........ But know we/I am here for you, all you or doogie or anyone needs to do is say the word, and I'll do my best to help in any way I can.
Cubby, of course you have not offended me in any way. Now I am wondering if my schoolteacher-ish way of writing makes people think I'm mad all the time (no, I'm not!) I am grateful for the time and energy you and other Sleuths have put into trying to find answers to this mystery. I'm feeling stumped, too. I know there are several ways we could go, but it's hard not to feel let down after the DNA results. Never mind, I'll have a go at that dreaded BFH in the next few days.

mjak
05-26-2007, 06:47 PM
I think it is very important that we stick to deductive reasoing when following leeds in the search for Anna. As if we do not do this there are no parmaters for our search and our chance for success decreases greatly. I think the work on Jonestown being done is admirable in that I feel it is important that these unknown children are given back to their families. However, I have yet to see a link upon which one can reasonable deduce that Anna may have been involved with Jonestown. Unless that link is found I would recommend we not spend a lot of time prusuing this theory. There is a link to synonm although a remote one, but neverless a link so that theory is worth persuing. What other theories can we come up with?

mjak

Cubby
06-14-2007, 11:39 AM
Is anyone still researching that picture of the child from synanon that we thought resembled Anna?

Cubby
04-29-2008, 10:45 PM
I'm bumping this because I still see a strong resemblence between the little girl in the synanon photo and Anna's younger half brother in the 1967 Family Christmas photo in the book. Does anyone else see this resemblence or is it just me?

Were we ever able to id exactly who the parents were to the little girl in the synanon pic?

Dr. Doogie
07-03-2008, 12:33 PM
After the abduction and murder of Polly Klaas, Annasmom requested that the San Mateo County Sheriff Department look into the possibilty that Richard Allen Davis be reviewed for possible involvement in Anna's disappearance. Davis was a resident of the very small community of La Honda, which is just south of where Anna and Annasmom lived. The SMCSD determined that he was incarcerated on the day that Anna was taken.

According to the Wikipedia article on Davis, this may be incorrect. It shows:

"Arrest record

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Allen_Davis&action=edit&section=2)] 1960s


March 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_6), 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967): At age 12, Davis has his first contact with law enforcement when he was arrested for burglary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary) in Chowchilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chowchilla%2C_California), where he lived with his grandmother.
May 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_24), 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967): Arrested again for forging a $ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar)10 money order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_order). He stayed briefly in juvenile hall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_detention_center) before his father moved him and his siblings to La Honda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Honda%2C_California).
November 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_15), 1969 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969): Arrested for the burglary of a La Honda home.
November 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_16), 1969 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969): The first of several occasions when Davis' father turns Davis and his older brother over to juvenile authorities for incorrigibility.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Allen_Davis&action=edit&section=3)] 1970s


September 15 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_15), 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970): Arrested for participating in a motorcycle theft. A probation officer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probation_officer) and judge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge) accept his father's suggestion that he enlist in the Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) to avoid being sent to the California Youth Authority.
July 1971 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971#July): Entered the Army. His military record reflects several infractions for AWOL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWOL), fighting, failure to report, and morphine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine) use.
August 1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972#August): General discharge from the military.
January 16, 1973: Anna disappears. (added by Dr. Doogie)
February 12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_12), 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973): Arrested in Redwood City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redwood_City%2C_California) for public drunkenness and resisting arrest. Placed on one-year summary probation.
April 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_21), 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973): Arrested in Redwood City for being a minor in possession of liquor, burglary and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Charged with trespassing, later dismissed.
August 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_13), 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973): Arrested in Redwood City leaning against hedges extremely intoxicated. Released upon sobriety.
October 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_24), 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973): Arrested in Redwood City on traffic warrants. Between April and October, he was implicated in more than 20 La Honda burglaries, leading a probation officer to report that residents were so angry at him, he might be in danger if he returned to La Honda. He pleaded guilty to burglary and was sentenced to six months in county jail and placed on three years' probation.
May 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13), 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974): Arrested for burglarizing South San Francisco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco%2C_California) High School. He was sent to the California Medical Facility, Vacaville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacaville%2C_California), for a 90-diagnostic study. A county probation officer recommended prison, but proceedings were suspended when Davis enrolled in a Veterans Administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Administration) alcohol treatment program. He quit on the second day.
September 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_16), 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974): Sentenced to one year in county jail for the school burglary. He was allowed to leave jail to attend a Native American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States) drug and alcohol treatment program. He failed to return, leaving behind two angry fellow inmates who had given Davis money to buy drugs and bring the contraband back to jail.
March 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_2), 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975): After being released, the two inmates tracked Davis down and shot him in the back. He was rearrested on a probation violation for failing to return to jail. Later, he testified against the inmates, earning him the epithet of "snitch" from fellow inmates. He was placed in protective custody.
April 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_11), 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975): Arrested for parole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parole) violation.
July 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_11), 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975): Arrested for auto theft and possession of marijuana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29). Received 10-day jail sentence.
August 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_13), 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975): Probation revoked after arrest for San Francisco burglary and grand theft. He was sentenced to a term of from six months to 15 years in prison.
August 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2), 1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976): Paroled from Vacaville.
September 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_24), 1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976): Abducted Frances Mays, a 26-year-old legal secretary, from the South Hayward BART (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit) station and attempted to sexually assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault) her. She escaped and hailed a passing car in which California Highway Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Highway_Patrol) Officer Jim Wentz was riding. Wentz arrested Davis."
According to this timeline, Davis was free on January 16. (I recognize that this timeline may be incomplete, but it was compiled from evidence entered into testimony during Davis's trial so I tend to give it more credence than your usual Wiki information.)

As you can see from the highlighted sections, Davis was very active in burgalizing homes very near Purisima Creek Road as early as April 1973. Since he was living in the area, it is certainly possible and likely probable that he was active in January 1973 in the same crimes in the area.

Map: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=la+honda,+ca+to+purisima+creek+road,+half+moon+b ay,+ca&sll=37.351601,-122.259293&sspn=0.343875,0.735397&ie=UTF8&ll=37.361971,-122.291222&spn=0.171914,0.367699&t=h&z=12

Two things that point away from Davis as a suspect are (1) he doesn't seem to have started crimes of sexual nature until late 1976, and (2) all of his sexual victims were adults or, in the case of Polly, at least post-pubescent. Nothing indicates that he was attracted to girls the age of Anna.

Lucy's mom
07-03-2008, 02:25 PM
Hi Dr. Doogie!

I don't think I've posted on here before but I have been a lurker for a few months. I admire you (and everyone else) for helping Anna's mom locate her daughter. :clap:
I just had one comment to make about RAD. Since he was obviously familiar with the area, he very easily could have been Anna's abductor but like you said, it doesn't match the profile of his other victims. However, he could have realized that after the Anna abduction and that's why he chose older victims later. Just my two cents...but for some reason, I tend to lean more toward the two George's over anything else. I also think Anna is alive but just has no idea who she is and where she came from. GB's obsession over her could have led them to kidnap her and then place Anna with a woman friend of his where this woman would take over as Anna's mother and still allow GB and GW to have contact with her. This woman could be the same woman Anna's brother saw try to lure her in the car.

SeekingJana
10-13-2008, 05:51 PM
I was a bit startled when I read the outline of what happened at your family home on the day that Anna disappeared.
Could you tell me if you lived on some type of communal property?

These are the people you have noted as being on your premises who are NOT family members on the day Anna disappeared:
1) Horsewoman #1- attacked by rooster
2) Horseperson #2
3) Horseman #3- killed your rooster and threw him in the creek ( hmmm)
4) Friend #1 ( with baby from SF)
5) Friend #2 ( arrived with #4 and baby).
6) Person described as " Ranch Resident", apparently not a family member
7) Carpenter friend of your husband Joe's- said he stopped to look at the view and saw an old van with 2 men in it near your residence.


Annasmom, we have SEVEN non-family adults in your home on the day that Anna disappeared. Was this amount of activity normal for your home?
If so, have you made mental notes of every person in and out of your residence for perhaps a 4-6 month time before Anna disappeared?

If this amount of activity is or is not normal for your home, how likely is it that someone would be casing your house and snatch a verbal 6 year old with all of these people in and out all day long? Was Anna friendly with GeorgeW or not at this point?
Have you checked out the people who were in your house that day? The resident? The horsepeople?

I know that George is the focus, and I know why, of course. But.. I had no idea that you had this amount of activity going on where Anna was exposed to many people, if this was a usual type of day for you.
I know it was a different time in our history, and I know you lived on a farm which may have been a working farm with items sold or land parceled out, but 7 non- related people in one day alone makes me wonder who else might have seen Anna from the age of 5-6... maybe a couple who couldn't have children, and saw her briefly, and took her.

It SEEMS obvious that she probably went with someone she knew, because you never heard her scream or protest.
However, she could have been gagged or drugged with something like a Chloroform soaked cloth over her nose and mouth. I believe Chloroform was easy to obtain back then. Also, GeorgeW had a friend at one point who was an anestheiologist. The friend would have had access to fast acting inhalant anesthetics especially for children's anesthesia.

Annasmom
10-14-2008, 09:50 AM
I was a bit startled when I read the outline of what happened at your family home on the day that Anna disappeared.
Could you tell me if you lived on some type of communal property?

These are the people you have noted as being on your premises who are NOT family members on the day Anna disappeared:
1) Horsewoman #1- attacked by rooster
2) Horseperson #2
3) Horseman #3- killed your rooster and threw him in the creek ( hmmm)
4) Friend #1 ( with baby from SF)
5) Friend #2 ( arrived with #4 and baby).
6) Person described as " Ranch Resident", apparently not a family member
7) Carpenter friend of your husband Joe's- said he stopped to look at the view and saw an old van with 2 men in it near your residence.


Annasmom, we have SEVEN non-family adults in your home on the day that Anna disappeared. Was this amount of activity normal for your home?
If so, have you made mental notes of every person in and out of your residence for perhaps a 4-6 month time before Anna disappeared?

If this amount of activity is or is not normal for your home, how likely is it that someone would be casing your house and snatch a verbal 6 year old with all of these people in and out all day long? Was Anna friendly with GeorgeW or not at this point?
Have you checked out the people who were in your house that day? The resident? The horsepeople?

I know that George is the focus, and I know why, of course. But.. I had no idea that you had this amount of activity going on where Anna was exposed to many people, if this was a usual type of day for you.
I know it was a different time in our history, and I know you lived on a farm which may have been a working farm with items sold or land parceled out, but 7 non- related people in one day alone makes me wonder who else might have seen Anna from the age of 5-6... maybe a couple who couldn't have children, and saw her briefly, and took her.

It SEEMS obvious that she probably went with someone she knew, because you never heard her scream or protest.
However, she could have been gagged or drugged with something like a Chloroform soaked cloth over her nose and mouth. I believe Chloroform was easy to obtain back then. Also, GeorgeW had a friend at one point who was an anestheiologist. The friend would have had access to fast acting inhalant anesthetics especially for children's anesthesia.
Again, sorry for the late answer. I was lost without my computer. We lived on a 640-acre ranch which had three private residences. Nos. 1, 2, and 2 were never in our house, but were questioned by police. Our friends with the baby were a married couple who came for a brief visit. The other person was our neighbor and someone who came looking for her when he didn't find her in his own house. This person, the last person to see Anna that we know of, has been questioned extensively and forum members have even spoken to him by telephone.

In answer to your question, our house did not usually have so many visitors, but the farm itself was used by horse boarders, hunters and a motorcycle club, so there was lots of traffic from Purisima Creek Road down the private road of the farm (I have a drawing posted some time in the past couple of weeks which shows how things were laid out.)

SeekingJana
10-14-2008, 03:44 PM
Again, sorry for the late answer. I was lost without my computer. We lived on a 640-acre ranch which had three private residences. Nos. 1, 2, and 2 were never in our house, but were questioned by police. Our friends with the baby were a married couple who came for a brief visit. The other person was our neighbor and someone who came looking for her when he didn't find her in his own house. This person, the last person to see Anna that we know of, has been questioned extensively and forum members have even spoken to him by telephone.

In answer to your question, our house did not usually have so many visitors, but the farm itself was used by horse boarders, hunters and a motorcycle club, so there was lots of traffic from Purisima Creek Road down the private road of the farm (I have a drawing posted some time in the past couple of weeks which shows how things were laid out.)

Wow, so there was a lot of traffic in and around your property most of the time, with the horse boarders, hunters and motorcyclists. That's a huge parcel of land.

It's amazing that you had several people coming and going that day in your home, yet Anna still managed to be snatched right out from under your eyes. This gives a lot of weight to someone she knew being the abductor, IMO.

One thing I thought about and don't mean any disrespect in bringing this up, knowing that there probably is no definitive answer except that no remains were found in or near the creek: About the rooster which was killed earlier in the day and thrown into the creek. Is there any chance that Anna would have seen the dead rooster caught on brush or debris and gone into the creek after it? I remember how I was at that age.. We lived on a farm with creeks and animals, and I would not have had fear about going into a deep or fast moving creek at the age of 6, because I had played in and around it all my life. I also would not have recognized the bird as being " dead" and might have gone right in for it to try to save it.

Dr. Doogie
10-14-2008, 10:41 PM
...One thing I thought about and don't mean any disrespect in bringing this up, knowing that there probably is no definitive answer except that no remains were found in or near the creek: About the rooster which was killed earlier in the day and thrown into the creek. Is there any chance that Anna would have seen the dead rooster caught on brush or debris and gone into the creek after it?...

The body of the rooster was found later farther downstream than the area of the stream that Anna had access to. It is conceivable that the bird's body hung up near the farm, but later broke loose and got hung up farther downstream for a second time.

But the fact that a 5-10 pound rooster's body was not able to be washed out to sea or to be lost in a raging stream is rather convincing evidence that Anna's 40 pound body would have also not disappeared into the creek not to be found for 35 years. The vegetation on the creek may be more plentiful today than in 1973, but my visit to the area a couple of years ago showed too many natural "snags " of trees for Anna to have been washed to sea.

SeekingJana
10-15-2008, 12:06 AM
Thank you for the added info, DD.
I respect you and Annasmom and all that the two of you have done for Anna so much. I hate to ask questions, even, but it's the only way I know to learn things and maybe us all see something differently.

My best,
Maria

Joe Ford
10-16-2008, 07:00 AM
The body of the rooster was found later farther downstream than the area of the stream that Anna had access to. It is conceivable that the bird's body hung up near the farm, but later broke loose and got hung up farther downstream for a second time.

But the fact that a 5-10 pound rooster's body was not able to be washed out to sea or to be lost in a raging stream is rather convincing evidence that Anna's 40 pound body would have also not disappeared into the creek not to be found for 35 years. The vegetation on the creek may be more plentiful today than in 1973, but my visit to the area a couple of years ago showed too many natural "snags " of trees for Anna to have been washed to sea.

While much has been done to tame Purissima Creek since then, it is worth mentioning this occurence that took place circa 1860, described by June Morrell in her excellent book, "Half Moon Bay Memories".

"In 1862, on the banks of Purissima Creek, the Village of Purissima rivalled Spanishtown (Half Moon Bay). That year a series of heavy storms caused the Purissima to overflow, flooding the valley, and two to three acres of land slid into the creek. Trapped in their recently completed home, the Lane family barely escaped with their lives before the rushing water claimed the house, sweeping it away.

When all was quiet again, only a piano lay undisturbed, high atop a huge redwood log. The flood washed out roads and bridges. In the aftermath, the debris of dwellings, orchards, fences, redwood trees and logs were violently hurled 70 feet over Purissima Falls and into the Pacific Ocean."

Annasmom
10-16-2008, 08:10 PM
While much has been done to tame Purissima Creek since then, it is worth mentioning this occurence that took place circa 1860, described by June Morrell in her excellent book, "Half Moon Bay Memories".

"In 1862, on the banks of Purissima Creek, the Village of Purissima rivalled Spanishtown (Half Moon Bay). That year a series of heavy storms caused the Purissima to overflow, flooding the valley, and two to three acres of land slid into the creek. Trapped in their recently completed home, the Lane family barely escaped with their lives before the rushing water claimed the house, sweeping it away.

When all was quiet again, only a piano lay undisturbed, high atop a huge redwood log. The flood washed out roads and bridges. In the aftermath, the debris of dwellings, orchards, fences, redwood trees and logs were violently hurled 70 feet over Purissima Falls and into the Pacific Ocean."

June Morrall in her blog Half Moon Bay Memories has been strongly supportive of the search for Anna the past two years and has a number of links to Lulu for ordering the book Searching for Anna. I think it is probably important to point out to those who have not seen the Purisima setting in person that the terrible-sounding storm of 1862 was not the situation in January of 1973, when no houses were swept away and the pianos remained safely in their places.

Joe Ford
10-17-2008, 03:34 PM
June Morrall in her blog Half Moon Bay Memories has been strongly supportive of the search for Anna the past two years and has a number of links to Lulu for ordering the book Searching for Anna. I think it is probably important to point out to those who have not seen the Purisima setting in person that the terrible-sounding storm of 1862 was not the situation in January of 1973, when no houses were swept away and the pianos remained safely in their places.
You are right, of course. The comparison may be an unfair exaggeration. I use it only to illustrate the terrifying and almost unimaginable power of rushing water and its capacity for destruction and upheaval.

Joe Ford
10-19-2008, 12:35 PM
This might be a good time to point out that it is not my opinion that Anna fell into the creek and drowned. I am in complete agreement with Annasmom and the rest of you dedicated sleuthers that it is imperative the search be pursued on all fronts.

The perplexing mist surrounding Anna's vanishing has become less dense through all of your relentless researching efforts.

I think that I tend to overreact to what I sometimes feel are dismissive comments or speculations regards the creek as a viable possibility to Anna's disappearance. It is my fear that, if construed as such, no future effort will ever be expended in that direction.

I must admit that I harbor, maybe foolishly, a scenario in which someone with the wherewithal and resources, overwhelmed with compassion, steps forward to say "By Golly, I can help you there. I just happen to have a team of divers, dogs, trackers and volunteers that would just love to give the creek a go!" Maybe not likely...but not impossible.

However, please do not interpret my wishes to keep this path of exploration open as, in any way, discordant with the concurrent investigations. Our goal is to find Anna...in that we are resolute.

Once again, I am deeply indebted and grateful to all of you sleuthers and well-wishers.

Thank you.
Joe

raf
10-19-2008, 12:54 PM
I wish to ask -since it seems that the Anna's abduction has not been an extemporaneous fact, but a precise plan- if in the days or months, before of abduction, Annasmom and Joe had the sensation that someone spied the house.....or the kindergarten....
thanks,
raf

Annasmom
10-19-2008, 02:32 PM
I wish to ask -since it seems that the Anna's abduction has not been an extemporaneous fact, but a precise plan- if in the days or months, before of abduction, Annasmom and Joe had the sensation that someone spied the house.....or the kindergarten....
thanks,
raf
Raf, perhaps we were naive, but we paid very little attention to the constant traffic around the farm. It was possible and even probable that any number of people could have been watching either the kindergarten or the farm or both. Unfortunately, we have not been able to single out an individual which this might have been. We did establish early on, in the company of a sheriff's department employee, that it would have been possible to watch the farm from a vantage point on Higgins Canyon Road where one would not have been seen, and to time the schedule of the school bus from that point to our house.

Also, thank you so much, Joe, for clarifying your position on the search. Of course the person in the best position to assist us lives right at the place from which Anna disappeared, but she has neither come forward nor responded to several messages we have sent her, including a flyer taped to her mailbox last year.

Cubby
10-19-2008, 02:48 PM
This might be a good time to point out that it is not my opinion that Anna fell into the creek and drowned. I am in complete agreement with Annasmom and the rest of you dedicated sleuthers that it is imperative the search be pursued on all fronts.

The perplexing mist surrounding Anna's vanishing has become less dense through all of your relentless researching efforts.

I think that I tend to overreact to what I sometimes feel are dismissive comments or speculations regards the creek as a viable possibility to Anna's disappearance. It is my fear that, if construed as such, no future effort will ever be expended in that direction.

I must admit that I harbor, maybe foolishly, a scenario in which someone with the wherewithal and resources, overwhelmed with compassion, steps forward to say "By Golly, I can help you there. I just happen to have a team of divers, dogs, trackers and volunteers that would just love to give the creek a go!" Maybe not likely...but not impossible.

However, please do not interpret my wishes to keep this path of exploration open as, in any way, discordant with the concurrent investigations. Our goal is to find Anna...in that we are resolute.

Once again, I am deeply indebted and grateful to all of you sleuthers and well-wishers.

Thank you.
Joe


Thank you for the honest post Joe, I understand your point completely. I too do not believe Anna went into the creek, but given the opportunity...
I have a question, and a comment. First, how much of the creek is on private property since the owner will most likely not agree to access? It was 4 miles from the farm to the ocean correct? Second, my thoughts on any volunteer who might be able to search with current technology would be Tim Miller with TES. If he and his organization were conducting a search in the area, I would by all means contact him and determine if he has equipment which might benefit an additional search of the area and was available to help. Technology has come a long way in 35+ years and his organization just recently helped locate a missing woman for which divers were unable to find her previously. (more at thread here:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72616)

SideKick
10-19-2008, 05:18 PM
Thank you for the honest post Joe, I understand your point completely. I too do not believe Anna went into the creek, but given the opportunity...
I have a question, and a comment. First, how much of the creek is on private property since the owner will most likely not agree to access? It was 4 miles from the farm to the ocean correct? Second, my thoughts on any volunteer who might be able to search with current technology would be Tim Miller with TES. If he and his organization were conducting a search in the area, I would by all means contact him and determine if he has equipment which might benefit an additional search of the area and was available to help. Technology has come a long way in 35+ years and his organization just recently helped locate a missing woman for which divers were unable to find her previously. (more at thread here:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72616)


Hi Cubby,

There really isn't a reason NOT to conduct an additional search in creek, and you are right, technology has indeed come a long way since the 70's. Tim Miller is so successful and I think this is a fabulous idea to have his search team help out with Anna's search. Here is his url for those not familiar with Tim Miller, Texas EquuSearch.

http://www.texasequusearch.org/about_us.html

He may not find anything in the creek, but the farm land itself was vast, you never know.:blowkiss:

I can't wait!

Joe Ford
10-19-2008, 05:35 PM
Thank you for the honest post Joe, I understand your point completely. I too do not believe Anna went into the creek, but given the opportunity...
I have a question, and a comment. First, how much of the creek is on private property since the owner will most likely not agree to access? It was 4 miles from the farm to the ocean correct? Second, my thoughts on any volunteer who might be able to search with current technology would be Tim Miller with TES. If he and his organization were conducting a search in the area, I would by all means contact him and determine if he has equipment which might benefit an additional search of the area and was available to help. Technology has come a long way in 35+ years and his organization just recently helped locate a missing woman for which divers were unable to find her previously. (more at thread here:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72616)
Hot damn, Cubby !!! Yours is just the kind of dust-stirring, boots-on-the-ground response that I have been hoping to hear. Bless you. Until now I had never even heard of Tim Miller or TES. I have just come from their website http://www.texasequusearch.org/ and am simply overwhelmed and impressed with their mission statement, technical capabilities, and recent successes in the field.

I sure hope that someone from the Searching for Anna team will contact them regards the possibility of becoming involved in our search. Maybe include one of Mikie's books? If I can assist financially or in any other capacity, I hereby volunteer.

Great idea, Cubby.

The acreage along the creek is primarily privately owned, with a section near the ocean in trust to a conservation organization as far as I know. I am fairly certain that the owner of Rancho Canada Verde, from whence Anna disappeared, would bow to public pressure if approached that way. It wouldn't hurt to try.

Cubby
10-19-2008, 06:54 PM
You're welcome Joe. I first learned about TES simply by reading here at WS. It's my understanding they will conduct a search if contacted by family or LE. IMVHO, it would be worth someone from the Searching For Anna team to make an initial contact with details of the previous search efforts and the information obtained regarding the flow patterns of the creek etc. I don't know his schedule, or what kind of equipment he has, but it would be worth finding out more.

ETA: I agree the current owner would bow to a bit of pressure if TES was out.

I know someone here at WS who works with Tim as a volunteer and if this is something which will be pursued please let me know and I will be happy to put someone in contact with her via PM or ask she contact you via PM.

MagicRose99
10-19-2008, 08:24 PM
This might be a good time to point out that it is not my opinion that Anna fell into the creek and drowned. I am in complete agreement with Annasmom and the rest of you dedicated sleuthers that it is imperative the search be pursued on all fronts.

The perplexing mist surrounding Anna's vanishing has become less dense through all of your relentless researching efforts.

I think that I tend to overreact to what I sometimes feel are dismissive comments or speculations regards the creek as a viable possibility to Anna's disappearance. It is my fear that, if construed as such, no future effort will ever be expended in that direction.

I must admit that I harbor, maybe foolishly, a scenario in which someone with the wherewithal and resources, overwhelmed with compassion, steps forward to say "By Golly, I can help you there. I just happen to have a team of divers, dogs, trackers and volunteers that would just love to give the creek a go!" Maybe not likely...but not impossible.

However, please do not interpret my wishes to keep this path of exploration open as, in any way, discordant with the concurrent investigations. Our goal is to find Anna...in that we are resolute.

Once again, I am deeply indebted and grateful to all of you sleuthers and well-wishers.

Thank you.
Joe

Joe, any of us who have been here and read thru all these threads and the book (even when it was still being written) know how hard you searched the creek and the area around the creek. We know how hard you tried to find Anna.

When you say you believe the creek did not claim her, I have to agree. Nobody would know more about this than you.

I say Annasmom is my hero... well, I gotta point out that YOU are my hero too. No father could love that little girl more than you do.

KivaSupporter
10-19-2008, 09:33 PM
My gut feeling is that Anna is alive and well.

But I believe the search is an excellent idea. It would eliminate drowning as a possibility and bring the very much needed publicity to this case.

JMHO
You're welcome Joe. I first learned about TES simply by reading here at WS. It's my understanding they will conduct a search if contacted by family or LE. IMVHO, it would be worth someone from the Searching For Anna team to make an initial contact with details of the previous search efforts and the information obtained regarding the flow patterns of the creek etc. I don't know his schedule, or what kind of equipment he has, but it would be worth finding out more.

ETA: I agree the current owner would bow to a bit of pressure if TES was out.

I know someone here at WS who works with Tim as a volunteer and if this is something which will be pursued please let me know and I will be happy to put someone in contact with her via PM or ask she contact you via PM.

Annasmom
10-19-2008, 11:07 PM
My gut feeling is that Anna is alive and well.

But I believe the search is an excellent idea. It would eliminate drowning as a possibility and bring the very much needed publicity to this case.

JMHO

Sorry to say that I'm under the weather and won't be able to do much the next few days, so hopefully someone else will be able to get started on this. Thank you!

SideKick
10-20-2008, 07:27 AM
Sorry to say that I'm under the weather and won't be able to do much the next few days, so hopefully someone else will be able to get started on this. Thank you!


All in all, I too believe Anna is alive and out there waiting to be found. I wonder if TES could possibly come up with anything at all, any ideas people may have overlooked ... once he reads her story?

Cubby
10-20-2008, 09:42 AM
Joe, any of us who have been here and read thru all these threads and the book (even when it was still being written) know how hard you searched the creek and the area around the creek. We know how hard you tried to find Anna.

When you say you believe the creek did not claim her, I have to agree. Nobody would know more about this than you.

I say Annasmom is my hero... well, I gotta point out that YOU are my hero too. No father could love that little girl more than you do.


I second this!

Here are my thoughts regarding TES. (Bluntfully honest... ) I have no clue about their equipment, technology, or how succesful they may be on a case as old as Anna's. My intial thoughts with my suggestion, was if they were in CA working on another case, I would then suggest or inquire about their technology and Mr. Millers thoughts on the matter.

If I may suggest Joe contacting them via email or phone as you Joe, have the most detailed info on what was done... the info on the silting and flow patterns of the creek. Then depending on Mr. Millers response, if he believes it is a possibility pursuing it further with Annas family and or LE.

I would love to see a go at it, if Mr. Millers belief is his equipment could be of benefit.

Am I making sense? I had 3 hours of sleep last night and am not quite awake here....

SideKick
10-20-2008, 10:53 AM
Of course the person in the best position to assist us lives right at the place from which Anna disappeared, but she has neither come forward nor responded to several messages we have sent her, including a flyer taped to her mailbox last year.[/QUOTE]

Uhmm... If we can find an email I will glady write to her. I think her new website should be up in November of this year....

Annasmom
10-20-2008, 04:07 PM
Of course the person in the best position to assist us lives right at the place from which Anna disappeared, but she has neither come forward nor responded to several messages we have sent her, including a flyer taped to her mailbox last year.

Uhmm... If we can find an email I will glady write to her. I think her new website should be up in November of this year....[/QUOTE] Thanks, SideKick. It should be possible to write her through her Producer, but I don't know who that is. Another thought occurred to mw: When she bought the farm, wouldn't the seller (Mickles) have had to disclose that a child would have been lost on the premises? I know you have to disclose all sorts of things in a sale of this sort. I am supposed to be on a week's bed rest and can barely type, so I'd better leave it at this. Thank you so much for all your help. Love.:blowkiss:

SideKick
10-20-2008, 07:04 PM
....Another thought occurred to mw: When she bought the farm, wouldn't the seller (Mickles) have had to disclose that a child would have been lost on the premises? I know you have to disclose all sorts of things in a sale of this sort. I am supposed to be on a week's bed rest and can barely type, so I'd better leave it at this. Thank you so much for all your help. Love.:blowkiss:[/QUOTE]

About informing a current owner of a residence about legal and media happenings I'm not really sure what the laws are. Great question! One would think so tho, afterall, they should know about anything everyone else does.

I sent an email to a woman who owns a film, music company today, hopefully I will get a quick reply. If anything I would be simply interested in hearing what TES would indeed have to say about Anna's case. Getting another pro'opinion with his team to boot and their experience, I feel would be of help to us to hear another point of view.

:heart:

Joe Ford
10-20-2008, 07:20 PM
Sorry to say that I'm under the weather and won't be able to do much the next few days, so hopefully someone else will be able to get started on this. Thank you!
I would be happy to initiate contact with Mr. Miller and his organization on the Family's behalf. I will also send him the book with our request for advice and information. I will, of course, stipulate that any forthcoming plans or procedures be directed to Annasmom and Dr.Doogie for consideration or approval while my role will remain as a laison.

Hopefully we will hear from them quickly. Having just come off oral surgery this morning, please allow me a few days to get reorganized before my head clears and I can get started.

Fingers crossed and breath held...

Cubby
10-20-2008, 10:53 PM
Annasmom and Joe I hope you both feel better soon.

As for the question Annasmom asked regarding Mickles disclosing Anna's disappearance from the property I am 98% certain that would not be required. I had an IL RE license until about 2 years ago. Anna's disappearance would have fallen under disclosing an accident or a crime. The disclosure is essentially to provide the buyer information on material defects in the home and land. In Illinois and most states accidents occuring on or possible crimes, crimes are not currently required as it falls too closely to steering. We were never to decide what crime factor was acceptable for a buyer and were always advised to suggest a potential buyer contact the local police for that information.

I did try to find a CA sellers disclosure online and was unable to. What I did see, was that a seller must currently advise a buyer of the availablity of a registered sex offender list. My best educated guess is this is at most what is required when disclosing any criminal, potential crime, or accident. I did try a few offices to ask to be certain.. and was unable to reach anyone as it was after 5 CA time. I will try again tomorrow during regular business hours just to confirm with an agent licensed in CA.

I am certain the current owner is aware of the fact through the locals, news media and the flyers and contact attempts.

MagicRose99
10-21-2008, 07:18 AM
I think JBean is into real estate... she may have the answer to these questions...

Cubby
10-21-2008, 09:07 AM
I think JBean is into real estate... she may have the answer to these questions...


Thanks I will pm her first. If not, I will try reaching an agent in a few hours.

Cubby
10-21-2008, 12:11 PM
I reached someone and got the answer I expected... that is a touchy subject and he refered me to the California Department of Real Estate, which must be who oversee's licensing law. They are most likely not going to answer a question so specific.... For liability purposes, we did not answer them either..

I did get to mention Anna's case to a local agent in half moon bay.

off to try the Ca dept of RE....

ETA:
Mr Kelly McKnight was kind enough to answer my questions. I found him by searching Half Moon Bay realtor. He was familiar with the area... and hopefully he might look into Anna's story. Please no one bother him! unless of course you are interested in buying in the area. He was very nice, very professional and exactly what I would have expected both as a realtor and a client.

http://www.aprhmb.com/

MagicRose99
10-21-2008, 03:03 PM
I reached someone and got the answer I expected... that is a touchy subject and he refered me to the California Department of Real Estate, which must be who oversee's licensing law. They are most likely not going to answer a question so specific.... For liability purposes, we did not answer them either..

I did get to mention Anna's case to a local agent in half moon bay.

off to try the Ca dept of RE....

ETA:
Mr Kelly McKnight was kind enough to answer my questions. I found him by searching Half Moon Bay realtor. He was familiar with the area... and hopefully he might look into Anna's story. Please no one bother him! unless of course you are interested in buying in the area. He was very nice, very professional and exactly what I would have expected both as a realtor and a client.

http://www.aprhmb.com/

Keep trying JB too... she's in CA so she most likely would know the answer...

Annasbro
10-22-2008, 11:40 AM
It will be good to use current technology for searching the creek. I must point out however for those of you that are not totally up to speed on the creek - It was searched at least 10 times (I lost count)by Joe and me from the farm all the way down to the ocean. This was done both in high flood type conditions as well as in low water conditions in the summer. The rooster that was tossed in the same day that Anna went missing was found on one of the first searches a day or two afterward. These first searches had groups of at least 10 -20 canvasing the whole width of the creek and taking apart any log jambs that might have snagged a body as well as divers in the area closer to the farm. As has been said, better to feel that no stones have been unturned but I feel this avenue has been pretty thoroughly explored.

Dr. Doogie
10-22-2008, 01:20 PM
I believe that the creek issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, but as long as there is any question about this possibility, it provides an "easy answer" for those to whom the other possibilities are too difficult to consider.

Yesterday I spoke to a detective involved with an unrelated missing child case in the SF Bay Area not in San Mateo County. It was apparent that he had done some research into me prior to his return of my inital phone call (probably suspecting some nefarious reason as to why I would have some possibly relevent information about his case). I explained that I had become involved with researching Bay Area missing children because of my friendship "with a family whose daughter disappeared in 1973 from Half Moon Bay" (no names or other details). His immediate response was "it appeared that the daughter had fallen into the creek"! Obviously, he was (for some reason) familar with the case and that was his snap judgement.

I do not believe that a further examination of the creek will yeild any answers to what happened to Anna - its value will be in finally and definitely eliminating this as a possibilty so that people will be forced to look elsewhere for answers.

Annasbro
10-22-2008, 02:21 PM
Well said Dr Doogie. I guess it still amazes me how some people continue to latch on to the creek theory so strongly, despite all of the work we have done here.

Dr. Doogie
10-22-2008, 02:31 PM
I believe that all of the principals such as the family along with the people here who have closely followed the case are all in agreement that Anna did not fall into the creek. It is the people who have a casual interest but have not immersed themselves into the case like we have that may embrace the easy answer of the creek. Sometimes, law enforcement falls into that catagory (like the detective that I spoke to) and, ultimately, we need LE to be "on-board" with the other, more believable, alternatives.

raf
10-22-2008, 03:54 PM
Personally I think that Anna was abudcted from a person by GB and GW order....no GB and GW in person made the abduction but they used another person for this ...
No car noise in the few minutes... no Saturn barking... nothing of nothing... but no much time passing from last Anna voice ( with cat??) and the Anna silence.... just some minute... the abducter had no much time for escaping with a child... it is no easy escaping with a child... in so little minutes...
No, no.... if I was a abducter ... I made this... : I narcotized the child and put in some part/area near immediately .. a car... or what was helpful for abduction... and when all searching the child I back and I took and carried ....
The house was watched during the first search??? I believe of not... also, just by abduction's stories, normally the guilty follow the event, the investigations.... it are not the pictures of Anna search in the 16 Jan 1973?
Nobody searched in the houses of neighbors.... yes it is impossible, but always better to search....

"the assassin always returns on the place of the crime"
and for "assassin" I mean the abductor....


I think not that Anna fall in the creek... otherwise the body would have been found... sooner or later... near or far... but found...
raf

Annasmom
10-22-2008, 08:52 PM
Personally I think that Anna was abudcted from a person by GB and GW order....no GB and GW in person made the abduction but they used another person for this ...
No car noise in the few minutes... no Saturn barking... nothing of nothing... but no much time passing from last Anna voice ( with cat??) and the Anna silence.... just some minute... the abducter had no much time for escaping with a child... it is no easy escaping with a child... in so little minutes...
No, no.... if I was a abducter ... I made this... : I narcotized the child and put in some part/area near immediately .. a car... or what was helpful for abduction... and when all searching the child I back and I took and carried ....
The house was watched during the first search??? I believe of not... also, just by abduction's stories, normally the guilty follow the event, the investigations.... it are not the pictures of Anna search in the 16 Jan 1973?
Nobody searched in the houses of neighbors.... yes it is impossible, but always better to search....

"the assassin always returns on the place of the crime"
and for "assassin" I mean the abductor....


I think not that Anna fall in the creek... otherwise the body would have been found... sooner or later... near or far... but found...
raf
Raf, your clear thinking is alway reassuringl Yes all the houses of the near neighbors as well as the farm buildings were carefully searched the day Anna disappearedl. Some time later, I was baby-sitting a young girl who may or may not have known about Anna's disappearance. She said "the lady made the little girl hurry so much that she dropped her doll." When I asked the little girl if this was a dream she had or something she imagined, she could not say. But because the tracker dogs turned UPSTREAM before they quit , always imagined that someone hid in the dense vegetation near the creek and made off with Anna that way, east and toward Higgins Canyon road, possibly even on horseback. Sorry for my bad typing. I am wearing a sling on the left arm and it makes it hard to type.

raf
10-23-2008, 04:34 AM
very interesting! Thanks, raf

SideKick
10-23-2008, 08:27 AM
Raf, your clear thinking is alway reassuringl Yes all the houses of the near neighbors as well as the farm buildings were carefully searched the day Anna disappearedl. Some time later, I was baby-sitting a young girl who may or may not have known about Anna's disappearance. She said "the lady made the little girl hurry so much that she dropped her doll." When I asked the little girl if this was a dream she had or something she imagined, she could not say. But because the tracker dogs turned UPSTREAM before they quit , always imagined that someone hid in the dense vegetation near the creek and made off with Anna that way, east and toward Higgins Canyon road, possibly even on horseback. Sorry for my bad typing. I am wearing a sling on the left arm and it makes it hard to type.

Well, this is interesting too! I would love to have the opportunity to travel that area, east near Higgins Canyon Rd., if Anna was taken on horseback....maybe her rubber boot/s fell off? Uhmm. I am trying to clarify in my mind who this little girl was she may have been talking about. The little girl with the doll?:rolleyes:

SideKick
10-23-2008, 08:28 AM
Also, Annasmom, I hope your arm is OK!
xox

Cubby
10-23-2008, 09:25 AM
FWIW, I have always thought someone took Anna eastward from the yard. I am not convinced it would have been difficult for someone to gain Anna's trust easily and to have simply walked off with her to a location far enough away the sounds of a car would not have been heard. Especially with the many horse people, farm hands, motorcycle club who used area's of the farm. Even more so after having seen the following video survellience of the young 5 yr old boy who was abducted (and has since been recovered safely) from a Grocery store in VA. http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=7677824&version=11&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

You can clearly see this child had no fear and walked out of this store holding this womans hand. I don't beleive Anna would have recognized the danger she was in when she was abducted. I don't know that many, or any 5 year old would understand. I know when my son was 5, it was difficult to ascertain his understanding of a stranger. He often thought if we said hello to someone in passing, that person was no longer a stranger.

I'm still concerned, uncertain, curious, about anyone who had any business on or near the farm, with the family, or with neighors who was unaccountable during the immediate days, weeks, months after Anna went missing. Whoever took Anna probably could not have gone back to their previous life and explained the presense of a child. Especially in the first days weeks and months.... Anna would have insisted to any other adults present she was not a child of this person and did not belong there. I wish we knew more about any adults who just 'fell off the face of the earth' following Anna's disappearance.

Joe Ford
10-23-2008, 10:22 AM
FYI:


Dear Mr. Miller:

I am contacting you on behalf of the family of Anna Waters who disappeared from a ranch in California and has never been found. My name is Joe Ford and I was Anna's stepdad at the time and there the day she vanished.

Firstly, I want to offer my sincerest condolences regards the tragic fate of your own daughter. I share that wretched emptiness that comes with having a loved one snatched from your life.

I would also like to applaud the generous help and hope that you and your organization have provided to so many distressed familles.

Despite many years of searching, no trace of our Anna has ever been discovered. I learned of you and your organization while monitoring a website dedicated to searching for Anna and other missing children, http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2853569#post2853569.

I am contacting you in the hopes that you can offer advice, suggestions, or help of any kind regards our search. The details of Anna's disappearance and case history, too lengthy to be put forth here, can be found online at www.searchingforanna.com (http://www.searchingforanna.com/)

Thanking you in advance, Mr. Miller, we are indebted to you. If you would be so kind, please respond to Anna's mother at <removed email address> or myself at <removed email address>.

Sincerely,
Joe Ford

Cubby
10-23-2008, 10:34 AM
Great letter Joe! I hope you or Annasmom hear back from Mr. Miller soon. I'm looking forward to hearing his suggestions and praying he might be able to offer a go at the creek.

SideKick
10-23-2008, 11:17 AM
Great letter Joe! I hope you or Annasmom hear back from Mr. Miller soon. I'm looking forward to hearing his suggestions and praying he might be able to offer a go at the creek.

:takeabow:

Joe, way to go, very nice letter to Tim Miller. If anything at all, gaining insight or suggestions to move forward is exactly what we need. I look forward to hearing his reply. Thanks for writing to him!

JBean
10-23-2008, 12:25 PM
hi guys. we usually disclose murders, suicides and violent crimes when selling property here in CA. I am not familiar with this case.. so if she disappeared from the premises, I do not believe that would be required to be disclosed..but most realtors would probably disclose it anyway.

IIRC there is a time limit that you are required to report a death. Say 3 or so years. Death can negatively affect a resale property so always best to disclose.

MagicRose99
10-23-2008, 03:04 PM
hi guys. we usually disclose murders, suicides and violent crimes when selling property here in CA. I am not familiar with this case.. so if she disappeared from the premises, I do not believe that would be required to be disclosed..but most realtors would probably disclose it anyway.

IIRC there is a time limit that you are required to report a death. Say 3 or so years. Death can negatively affect a resale property so always best to disclose.

Thanks JB!

Joe Ford
10-23-2008, 04:55 PM
Dear Mr. Ford,

Thank you for contacting Mr. Miller. I will pass this info on to him when
I get a chance. Right now, we are in North Carolina working on several
cases, and then back to Florida for the search for Caylee Anthony. I'm
not sure when I can get a response for you from Tim, but please be patient
and Tim or I will respond.

Thank you again.

Sincerely,
Barbie Tarr
Executive Assistant
to Tim Miller
Texas EquuSearch (http://www.games.com/?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)

JBean
10-23-2008, 11:59 PM
Thanks JB!
you are welcome MR99. Funny, I asked an agent that does a lot of resale. she said she never discloses unless asked.

Joe Ford
10-24-2008, 11:04 AM
A copy of Searching For Anna has today been ordered from LULU and sent to Barbie Tarr at Texas EquuSearch.

Cubby
10-27-2008, 10:27 AM
Glad you are sending Barbie the book Joe. Maybe we should add that to the books sent to area..... ( I will, if you don't mind me copying and pasting. :) )

I did get another reply from a Realtor- through my old contacts here in Dupage, John Vertnik with Prudential Starck in Bloomingdale, IL.

Mr. Keeter was kind enough to send the following reply. I have included his business info as well...... and replied back to him with the links here at WS, to searchingforanna.com and half moon bay memories. Can't hurt to get the word out.

thank you Mr. Keeter! And thanks John Vertnik!


I took a little time to check out the question you asked regarding the disclosure of someone going missing from a property. The conscience of opinion is that if this is a potential crime it should be disclosed (as opposed to someone wandering off). There is no special document that addresses this issue but it could be included on the “Real Estate Transfer Disclosure Statement” (DTS) which is part of the standard package of documents filled out by the seller and reviewed by the buyer. This is the document that is used to disclose if someone has died on the property in the past three years. (The statute for death on the property only runs for the three prior years.) The TDS has space to include information not specifically listed on the document.

As I said before there is no specific requirement however if you know something it is best to disclose it. Someone will know and is bound to tell the buyer so when in doubt disclose.

Hope this helps, let me know if I can do anything else for you.

It's a great life!
Bryan M. Keeter
Personalized Not Franchised Real Estate Service
Lyon Real Estate
851 Pleasant Grove Blvd., Ste 150
Roseville, CA 95678
(916) 749-2215 Cell
(916) 787-7739 Ofc.

Dr. Doogie
01-29-2009, 06:16 PM
I came across a new article that mentions the "House of Affirmation" in Montara (a retreat for "recovering" pedophile Catholic priests). Please read the earlier posts in this thread to understand why they are of interest.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090125/NEWS02/901250403/1007/LIVING

Dr. Doogie
07-14-2009, 03:49 PM
I received an email today from Rich Speder, the man whose name was found on some mail in the shack circa 1980. Here is his message:

"dr doogie, my sympathy goes out to anna's mom and all involved. i am richard speder, the person that is mentioned on websleuth and i guarantee you i had nothing to do with her disapearance and know nothing about this case. i tried to register on web site and never got a confirming email back and it won't let me sign in to contact anyone. i did live in this shack for a year and a half. please get back to me with any questions.
rich speder"

I have sent Mr. Speder some questions about ownership and previous tenants that may lead us back to the "Wild Man" (Speder is not the WM based on when he lived there.) It was honorable that Mr. Speder contacted me and I hope that this message clears up any question about his involvement - he did not live in the shack until several years after Anna's disappearance. Hopefully, he can also answer some lingering questions about the shack and the Wild Man.

Dr. Doogie
07-14-2009, 10:32 PM
BINGO! We have a winner.

Rich Speder has provided a name for the Wild Man - Alex Turner. But Speder rented the shack from the Wild Man and ended up suing for his deposit back when he was evicted by the true owners of the property, so there would be a small claims court case on file in San Mateo County with Speder as the plaintiff and the Wild Man as the defendant.

Evidently, the property was owned by a family nearby and was the subject of a dispute between the father and his sons and Speder ended up being caught in the middle.

He also asked to clarify the nature of the House of Affirmation where he worked as a handyman. He described it not as a "dark" place for pedophile priests, but as a place for defrocked priests and nuns with various addictions to recuperate - pedos made up only a small portion of the residents. And since he was the only thing connecting the HoA to this case, then it is a non-factor in Anna's disappearance.

I want to repeat so that the record shows that Mr. Speder did not reside at the shack when Anna disappeared (he lived hundreds of miles away) and did not met the Wild Man until the late 1970's. He has been gracious enough to come forward and I want to make sure that any previous speculation of his possible involvement is put to rest. He is being very helpful and I am grateful.

Dr. Doogie
07-15-2009, 01:22 PM
The Wild Man's name is Alexander (Alex) Turner. He evidently trained Dobermans for a living and built the shack by hand from scratch on land that he had been given permission by the owner. Around 1979, he moved to Chico, CA and rented the shack to Richard Speder. Once the land's owner and his sons became aware that Turner was no longer living in the shack, they evicted Speder and ultimately tore the shack down.

Speder sued Turner in small claims court in Chico (not San Mateo County as previously reported). Turner was living in Chico as of 1980, but his current whereabouts are not known...yet.

I found a post by a person who was also trying to locate Turner (apparantly in reference to his dog training). This person noted that Turner also used the following aliases: Alejandro Turner, George Turner, or Alejandro De la Torre.

Here is where it gets scary: There is an "Alexander David Turner" who is a RSO who lives in Los Angeles County. He is about the right age and appears to possibly be hispanic. Speder has yet to be able to open the picture from the Megan's List site to see if this could be the same man, but I will send a link to the site to help him evaluate the pic.

Please remember: At this point, Turner is only a person of interest, not a suspect. He may have nothing to do with Anna's disappearance, but is certainly worthy of a deeper look.

BTW: I am working on getting Richard Speder approved as a member of Websleuths so that he can post here directly.

SherlockJr
07-15-2009, 01:57 PM
The Wild Man's name is Alexander (Alex) Turner. He evidently trained Dobermans for a living and built the shack by hand from scratch on land that he had been given permission by the owner. Around 1979, he moved to Chico, CA and rented the shack to Richard Speder. Once the land's owner and his sons became aware that Turner was no longer living in the shack, they evicted Speder and ultimately tore the shack down.

Speder sued Turner in small claims court in Chico (not San Mateo County as previously reported). Turner was living in Chico as of 1980, but his current whereabouts are not known...yet.

I found a post by a person who was also trying to locate Turner (apparantly in reference to his dog training). This person noted that Turner also used the following aliases: Alejandro Turner, George Turner, or Alejandro De la Torre.

Here is where it gets scary: There is an "Alexander David Turner" who is a RSO who lives in Los Angeles County. He is about the right age and appears to possibly be hispanic. Speder has yet to be able to open the picture from the Megan's List site to see if this could be the same man, but I will send a link to the site to help him evaluate the pic.

Please remember: At this point, Turner is only a person of interest, not a suspect. He may have nothing to do with Anna's disappearance, but is certainly worthy of a deeper look.

BTW: I am working on getting Richard Speder approved as a member of Websleuths so that he can post here directly.


I thought he looks more Indian than hispanic.

Dr. Doogie
07-15-2009, 05:18 PM
I thought he looks more Indian than hispanic.

True, but I am assuming the Hispanic angle based on the aliases. He DOES look like somebody who could go by the name "Alejandro" or "De La Torre".

However, I have found a "Alexander G. Turner" who lived in Chico and also Riverdale, CA (which is near Fresno). This same man may also have lived or is living in Coalinga, CA (close to Riverdale). The middle initial of "G" may be the source of the "George" alias. (Just what we need - another George in the mix! LOL!)

Cubby
07-15-2009, 06:14 PM
Awesome work Doogie! I have no clue how I missed this earlier. Must have just seen rafs current posts. Thank you Mr. Speder for contacting Dr. Doogie and providing us the additional information into the search for Anna! It means the world to us!

:blowkiss:
Cubby

Cubby
07-15-2009, 06:19 PM
Doogie, the RSO 'AGT' who lived in Chico, does the California site indicate the age- or age range- of the victim by chance? Can you link his info from the registry here? I ask, because if his victims were adults, or he was convicted due the age limit just outside stat. rape, that would indicate his MO was not children.

I had reason outside this case to look up the age of consent for California a few weeks back. Unlike some other states, it is currently 18, so even a 19 yr old dating a 17 yr old could technically be charged with stat. rape and listed as an RSO, (if CA lists all teirs of SO's). I think it's important we clarify that with regards to AGT.

Dr. Doogie
07-15-2009, 06:32 PM
The Alexander Turner who is an RSO has a middle name of David and lives in West Covina, Los Angeles County. The Alexander G. Turner who lived in Chico is a different person and is not an RSO. He apparantly now lives near Fresno. I have found two court records for a "Alexander Turner" in Fresno County - a 1984 charge of domestic violence (somehow involving children but I think it is a "wife-beating" in front of the children) and a 1997 family court issue that I cannot decipher. Also, there is a small claims case involving a Alejandro De La Torre who sued, then dropped a claim against Liberty Mutual Insurance Company.

I do not know if this is the same guy as the Wild Man.

Annasmom
07-16-2009, 11:37 AM
The Alexander Turner who is an RSO has a middle name of David and lives in West Covina, Los Angeles County. The Alexander G. Turner who lived in Chico is a different person and is not an RSO. He apparantly now lives near Fresno. I have found two court records for a "Alexander Turner" in Fresno County - a 1984 charge of domestic violence (somehow involving children but I think it is a "wife-beating" in front of the children) and a 1997 family court issue that I cannot decipher. Also, there is a small claims case involving a Alejandro De La Torre who sued, then dropped a claim against Liberty Mutual Insurance Company.

I do not know if this is the same guy as the Wild Man.
This is some amazing rock-turning, Doogie. And I am stunned by the information regarding the shack. I never could quite picture where that shack was. Was it down by the Purisima cemetery?

Dr. Doogie
07-16-2009, 12:24 PM
I spoke with Annasbro last night and he confirmed that the shack in question was located at the corner of Purissima Creek and Verde Roads, next to the Purissima cemetery.

I found this posted a couple of years ago with the answer to where the shack was. Evidently, when Speder was evicted from the shack by the property owners, they quickly demolished it to prevent Turner from returning to occupy the cabin. Joe and Nonda must have timed it just right to obtain the letters and paystub - a week or two later and the shack would have been gone.

I have also made contact with somebody else who knew Turner during this period (mid-to-late 1970's) who may be able to supply more info about him as I gain this person's trust.

Dr. Doogie
07-19-2009, 03:54 PM
The person who I have found who knew Turner in the late 1970's says that he had a temper, but that it was unlikely that he would have kidnapped or harmed a child.

Dr. Doogie
07-19-2009, 03:58 PM
Here is the info about Turner's domestic violence charge in Fresno County:
(If this is undecipherable, go to http://banweb.co.fresno.ca.us/cprodsnp/ck_public_qry_main.cp_main_idx , then search by name of Alexander Turner.)

Report Selection Criteria

Case ID: 0307805 Docket Start Date: Docket Ending Date: <A name=description>

Case Description

Case ID: 0307805 - WILLIE TURNER VS ALEXANDER TURNER ET AL - -NON JURY-
Filing Date: Thursday , February 16th, 1984 Type: 53 - Domestic viol prev children Status: none <A name=related>

Related Cases

No related cases were found. <A name=events>

Case Event Schedule

No case events were found. <A name=parties>

Case Parties

Seq #AssocExpn DateTypeIDName1 Defendant<A href="http://banweb.co.fresno.ca.us/cprodsnp/ck_public_qry_cpty.cp_personcase_details_idx?backt o=P&soundex_ind=&partial_ind=&last_name=&first_name=&middle_name=&begin_date=&end_date=&case_type=&id_code=@777011">@777011TURNER, ALEXANDER Address:unavailable Aliases:none 2 Attorney000000 (http://banweb.co.fresno.ca.us/cprodsnp/ck_public_qry_cpty.cp_personcase_details_idx?backt o=P&soundex_ind=&partial_ind=&last_name=&first_name=&middle_name=&begin_date=&end_date=&case_type=&id_code=000000)Unrepresented, Unrepresented Address:unavailable Aliases:none 3 Defendant@777012 (http://banweb.co.fresno.ca.us/cprodsnp/ck_public_qry_cpty.cp_personcase_details_idx?backt o=P&soundex_ind=&partial_ind=&last_name=&first_name=&middle_name=&begin_date=&end_date=&case_type=&id_code=@777012)TURNER, ROBERT Address:unavailable Aliases:none 4 Attorney000000 (http://banweb.co.fresno.ca.us/cprodsnp/ck_public_qry_cpty.cp_personcase_details_idx?backt o=P&soundex_ind=&partial_ind=&last_name=&first_name=&middle_name=&begin_date=&end_date=&case_type=&id_code=000000)Unrepresented, Unrepresented Address:unavailable Aliases:none 5 Plaintiff@777013 (http://banweb.co.fresno.ca.us/cprodsnp/ck_public_qry_cpty.cp_personcase_details_idx?backt o=P&soundex_ind=&partial_ind=&last_name=&first_name=&middle_name=&begin_date=&end_date=&case_type=&id_code=@777013)TURNER, WILLIE Address:unavailable
unavailable
unavailable
unavailable Aliases:none

Docket Entries

Filing DateDescriptionNameMonetary16-FEB-1984
08:00 AMDomestic Violence OSCTURNER, WILLIE Entry:Fee Amount : 0000009000 Text : FILED ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE & TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER (DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) MARRIED: YES CR: 25737 DATE 03/12/84 TIME 02:30 DEPT. 07 12-MAR-1984
08:00 AMMinute orderTURNER, WILLIE Entry:Fee Amount : 0000000000 Text : FILED MINUTE ORDER: OSC DEPT 07 PETNR'S CHILDREN VACATE RESIDENCE 05-NOV-2005
10:07 AMFL / FS Inactive FinalTURNER, WILLIE Entry:none.

Cubby
09-02-2009, 02:12 PM
In the comments sections of the link I posted regarding Phillip Garrido residing in Reno in 1970 or so, I ran across the name Lisa Marie Bonham, who was abducted and murdered by a pedophile in Reno in 77. The person who was eventually convicted of her murder had a criminal history since 1969.

This got me wondering..... Unless one recalls a specific case how would one research sex offenders prior to the state sex offender registries?

Did LE working on Anna's case ever looking into anyone convicted of crimes against children for the time period? I know Dr. Doogie has mentioned searching for similiar crimes, but not sure if a list exists of rule outs? Or pedo's in the area for that time era have ever been searched.

I don't think this perp who killed Lisa had anything to do with Anna's disappearance as he appears to have been in Reno. It just got me thinking. (I hope that is not what happened to Anna, but it got me thinking and wondering.

Dr. Doogie
09-04-2009, 02:43 AM
The news today reports that Garrido was arrested for a rape of a 14 year old in Antioch in April 1972. That puts him in the Bay Area uncomfortably close to January 1973. So far, that only means that he was a pedophile in the general region that Anna disappeared from - probably just one of a thousand or so, but this is too close to home for me.

Dr. Doogie
09-04-2009, 03:57 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,546761,00.html?test=latestnews

From the article: "The 1976 victim — Katherine Callaway Hall — told police after that attack that Garrido said he had abducted two other girls, one from the San Francisco Bay area and one possibly from Las Vegas."

So by 1976, Garrido had kidnapped another girl in the Bay Area. And the 1972 arrest for the 14 year old does not seem to have been a kidnapping, but a "date-rape" and statutory rape.

KivaSupporter
09-04-2009, 05:36 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,546761,00.html?test=latestnews

From the article: "The 1976 victim — Katherine Callaway Hall — told police after that attack that Garrido said he had abducted two other girls, one from the San Francisco Bay area and one possibly from Las Vegas."

So by 1976, Garrido had kidnapped another girl in the Bay Area. And the 1972 arrest for the 14 year old does not seem to have been a kidnapping, but a "date-rape" and statutory rape.

I surely hope this has nothing to do with Anna but I am glad for the publicity this case is bringing to abductions.

Pink Panther
09-13-2009, 08:00 AM
I don't know a great deal about Synanon but while doing a bit of googling I found this article:

"Child Rearing and Education in the Synanon School"
http://hum.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/28/2/95

The summary states :

"A detailed description of the Synanon School is presented, including its history and development, organization, and census data on its 200 resident children by age, sex, race, and time in Synanon."

The article was written in 1975 and can be purchased.

Cubby
09-13-2009, 10:13 AM
It would be great to get census data on those who were at Synanon!

SherlockJr
09-13-2009, 10:27 AM
It would be great to get census data on those who were at Synanon!

This would be the perfect job for our kids and/or grandchildren. I'm pretty sure I won't be here in this life to see the 1970 census.

Cubby
09-13-2009, 10:36 AM
This would be the perfect job for our kids and/or grandchildren. I'm pretty sure I won't be here in this life to see the 1970 census.

From Pinks post.



"A detailed description of the Synanon School is presented, including its history and development, organization, and census data on its 200 resident children by age, sex, race, and time in Synanon."



I read this to mean the census info is in the article Pink linked. :waitasec:

Pink Panther
09-13-2009, 10:41 AM
From Pinks post.



I read this to mean the census info is in the article Pink linked. :waitasec:
If you read the summary of the article is says that there is census information in the document.

:)

ETA - It's so nice to see you guys posting! I was getting very lonely. : (

SideKick
09-15-2009, 02:48 PM
Recalling that George Waters was trying not to pay child support, I was wondering if his lawyer was ever suspected or questioned by LE at the time Anna disappeared? It wouldn't seem unlikely that perhaps they had a 'deal'...
Do we know the lawyers name? Is he still around the Bay area?

Thanks

Cubby
09-15-2009, 02:54 PM
Recalling that George Waters was trying not to pay child support, I was wondering if his lawyer was ever suspected or questioned by LE at the time Anna disappeared? It wouldn't seem unlikely that perhaps they had a 'deal'...
Do we know the lawyers name? Is he still around the Bay area?

Thanks


IIRC, Sherlock had phoned him. I think about the time we went through the box from hell. He had no recollection of dealings with GW.

SideKick
09-15-2009, 03:01 PM
IIRC, Sherlock had phoned him. I think about the time we went through the box from hell. He had no recollection of dealings with GW.


UGH!

Was this the fellow who took the 5th? If so, I do recall something aggravating about that. Doesn't that mean, he knows more than he should but NOT talking!?

SK

Cubby
09-15-2009, 03:02 PM
yep, that was the guy who Sherlock described as taking the 5th.

SideKick
09-15-2009, 03:09 PM
yep, that was the guy who Sherlock described as taking the 5th.


I find that very very suspicious!

Cubby
09-15-2009, 03:19 PM
I find that very very suspicious!

Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure he dealt with many clients over the years and doesn't remember them all. Now if he handled adoptions that might be diffeent.

SideKick
09-15-2009, 03:42 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure he dealt with many clients over the years and doesn't remember them all. Now if he handled adoptions that might be diffeent.

Very true indeed, but Anna is a missing child, why not just say 'I don't recall' rather than taking the 5th? I am not American we don't have this option. It just comes across harsher than .. hey, I don't remember.

Thanks Cubby!!


SK

Cubby
02-15-2010, 07:55 PM
While looking for something else, I found this older post regarding the picture of the girl from Synanon who resembles Anna.

I thought it was worth repeating.
(link to original post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Searching for Anna )

On May 17, 2006, I received the following email from Gerry Nance of the NCMEC:

"My contact has shown the pictures of Anna to three members (former) who
lived in the Oakland facility during the 70s. None recognized the
photograph of Anna and all said that there were very few young children
there, and everyone would make a fuss over them, so the chances of one
being secreted into the facility would be nil. One member said there
were some children in the Santa Monica facility, but they were kids of
single parents who had no where else to leave them.

Although not officially a cult, they meet enough criteria in my mind
that I am looking at them from a cult standpoint: In the 70s and early
into the 80s, they had folks flocking to the door. That is also the
time when isolation started and continued. To isolate, you must first
isolate the member from family, but you also have to put a moat around
the member and the community, nothing that would give authorities reason
to rock your boat was allowed. The practice of kidnapping young
children when there are so many women in the facility of child bearing
age would be a high risk. I am not saying that this is not still a
possibility, but the odds of it are beginning to change."

Other sources within WS at the same time came to the same conclusion. The WS sources also supplied the name of the girl who the Synanon members identified as the girl in the picture. We were able to locate a family website where pictures of the family were posted (including girl in the picture as an adult). These pictures did not resemble the age-progressed pictures of Anna, and the girl showed a definite family resemblance to her siblings.

Because of this, I concluded that the girl in the picture was not Anna. Remember that the the possible Synanon connection only came about because of someone researching the Synanon archives during the hunt for Rose Cole came across this picture and recognized the resembance between Anna and the girl - no concrete evidence was every uncovered that would point us to believe that Synanon had any involvement in Anna's case (other than the general location and George Waters's employment in a drug-treatment facility).

Because the Synanon member's all came to the same conclusion independently and because they were not aware of why they were being asked about the girl in the picture, it is unlikely that they were being anything other than truthful in their responses. As much as I would have loved to concluded otherwise, I felt that we were attempting to fit the "square peg" of Anna's disappearance into the "round hole" of the Synanon cult.

OzzieMum
02-16-2010, 02:58 AM
While looking for something else, I found this older post regarding the picture of the girl from Synanon who resembles Anna.

I thought it was worth repeating.
(link to original post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Searching for Anna (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1164902&postcount=532) )

On May 17, 2006, I received the following email from Gerry Nance of the NCMEC:

"My contact has shown the pictures of Anna to three members (former) who
lived in the Oakland facility during the 70s. None recognized the
photograph of Anna and all said that there were very few young children
there, and everyone would make a fuss over them, so the chances of one
being secreted into the facility would be nil. One member said there
were some children in the Santa Monica facility, but they were kids of
single parents who had no where else to leave them.

Although not officially a cult, they meet enough criteria in my mind
that I am looking at them from a cult standpoint: In the 70s and early
into the 80s, they had folks flocking to the door. That is also the
time when isolation started and continued. To isolate, you must first
isolate the member from family, but you also have to put a moat around
the member and the community, nothing that would give authorities reason
to rock your boat was allowed. The practice of kidnapping young
children when there are so many women in the facility of child bearing
age would be a high risk. I am not saying that this is not still a
possibility, but the odds of it are beginning to change."

Other sources within WS at the same time came to the same conclusion. The WS sources also supplied the name of the girl who the Synanon members identified as the girl in the picture. We were able to locate a family website where pictures of the family were posted (including girl in the picture as an adult). These pictures did not resemble the age-progressed pictures of Anna, and the girl showed a definite family resemblance to her siblings.

Because of this, I concluded that the girl in the picture was not Anna. Remember that the the possible Synanon connection only came about because of someone researching the Synanon archives during the hunt for Rose Cole came across this picture and recognized the resembance between Anna and the girl - no concrete evidence was every uncovered that would point us to believe that Synanon had any involvement in Anna's case (other than the general location and George Waters's employment in a drug-treatment facility).

Because the Synanon member's all came to the same conclusion independently and because they were not aware of why they were being asked about the girl in the picture, it is unlikely that they were being anything other than truthful in their responses. As much as I would have loved to concluded otherwise, I felt that we were attempting to fit the "square peg" of Anna's disappearance into the "round hole" of the Synanon cult.



I did a post just recently about the little "girl" in a photo taken in the bathroom of the Synanon compound and I think it was Annasmom that posted that this actually turned out to be a little boy with long hair. Is this the same photo that you are talking about?

Cubby
02-16-2010, 03:21 AM
Yes, it is the same photo. It was a little girl, not a little boy.

FWIW, I was looking for a different post regarding Jerry Nance and ran across this in my search. Since the topic has on occasion been brought up again, (myself included after this post I am repeating, but when I was newer to the forum). I thought it would be worth the repost so fresh eyes could see why that picture/person was ruled out way back.

OzzieMum
02-16-2010, 05:37 AM
Yes, it is the same photo. It was a little girl, not a little boy.

FWIW, I was looking for a different post regarding Jerry Nance and ran across this in my search. Since the topic has on occasion been brought up again, (myself included after this post I am repeating, but when I was newer to the forum). I thought it would be worth the repost so fresh eyes could see why that picture/person was ruled out way back.

I think Annasmom can clear this up.

Annasmom
02-16-2010, 12:29 PM
I think Annasmom can clear this up.
All I remember is that we ruled out this child; at some point, we decided that we had to have something besides physical resemblance in order to seriously consider a candidate as being a possible Anna candidate, and in this case there was nothing except a close resemblance. The information is here on the Forum somewhere.

Reels
05-29-2010, 02:15 PM
I'm sorry if I'm asking this in the wrong place. I'm trying to read all the threads, but there are a lot of them.

Have you ever heard back from Texas Equusearch (however it is spelled)?

Then, I was thinking about the little girl you were babysitting (Annasmom). Now that she is older, do you think she would remember saying that? Maybe she saw something and was trying to tell you? Even if it's nothing, or she doesn't remember it now, would it be worth asking?

There was something else...oh, raf's post of what he would have done, and I was thinking the same thing. I would never kidnap a child, but in trying to think like a kidnapper I came up with the same idea. I'd drug the child somehow, and then either hide her under the house (if possible, like in a crawlspace) or I'd move quickly towards the creek, go up the bank somewhat, then cross through the water and make an escape that way. It's interesting that the scent dogs turned that way and then stopped. I hadn't known that before, and I admit it made me sit up a little straighter when I read it.

It bothers me the man killed the rooster, but maybe that's just because I am so against animal cruelty, and I think there are other ways to deal with an angry rooster. That said, I have been bitten by a Peking duck more than once and I can understand reacting. Not that it matters, but that is one fact that just keeps standing out to me. Did you know this man who did it?

I was going to say I didn't think that GB must have been a socialist, because he considered himself a kind of messiah, and in socialism, the idea is that we are all equal (basically). On the other hand, I can see how he would talk about Hitler often, because of the charisma Hitler had (NOT that I approve in ANY way of that evil man). Though people who hated him even admitted he exuded charm and confidence and could command attention and frenzy crowds like no one else. And I agree that I don't think they would have given Anna to any "group" or "cult" like Peoples Temple or Synanon. GB would not have been able to control anything about Anna if she were sent there, and if he truly believed she was the incarnation of MK, he would want that control. At least in my opinion.

Annasmom
05-29-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm sorry if I'm asking this in the wrong place. I'm trying to read all the threads, but there are a lot of them.

Have you ever heard back from Texas Equusearch (however it is spelled)?

Then, I was thinking about the little girl you were babysitting (Annasmom). Now that she is older, do you think she would remember saying that? Maybe she saw something and was trying to tell you? Even if it's nothing, or she doesn't remember it now, would it be worth asking?

There was something else...oh, raf's post of what he would have done, and I was thinking the same thing. I would never kidnap a child, but in trying to think like a kidnapper I came up with the same idea. I'd drug the child somehow, and then either hide her under the house (if possible, like in a crawlspace) or I'd move quickly towards the creek, go up the bank somewhat, then cross through the water and make an escape that way. It's interesting that the scent dogs turned that way and then stopped. I hadn't known that before, and I admit it made me sit up a little straighter when I read it.

It bothers me the man killed the rooster, but maybe that's just because I am so against animal cruelty, and I think there are other ways to deal with an angry rooster. That said, I have been bitten by a Peking duck more than once and I can understand reacting. Not that it matters, but that is one fact that just keeps standing out to me. Did you know this man who did it?

I was going to say I didn't think that GB must have been a socialist, because he considered himself a kind of messiah, and in socialism, the idea is that we are all equal (basically). On the other hand, I can see how he would talk about Hitler often, because of the charisma Hitler had (NOT that I approve in ANY way of that evil man). Though people who hated him even admitted he exuded charm and confidence and could command attention and frenzy crowds like no one else. And I agree that I don't think they would have given Anna to any "group" or "cult" like Peoples Temple or Synanon. GB would not have been able to control anything about Anna if she were sent there, and if he truly believed she was the incarnation of MK, he would want that control. At least in my opinion.

Reels,
I was amazed by your descriptions in the "What do you remember" thread. Yes, I would hope Anna would have memories of her early life. The little girl I was baby-sitting lived far away; I don't think she ever even knew Anna, and she wasn't around when Anna disappeared. Her remark was very strange, considering this (I don't remember her exact words, but it was something like "the lady made the little girl hurry so much, she dropped her doll.")

The man who killed the rooster was the blacksmith the bird made the mistake of attacking. He was questioned very extensively at the time by the police. In fact, I think they made the poor man very miserable. But they were satisfied that he had nothing to do with Anna's disappearance.

I don't remember anything about Texas Equusearch, but neither do I have anything in my files about this (or at least I can't find it), so I doubt we had an answer. There was no crawl space under the house and I can't quite figure out how they might have crossed the creek unless they used the bridge. The dogs ran along the near side of the creek and then headed upstream before they stopped. The neighbor out on horseback on the road above the house said that she heard rustling in the trees along the creek and thought that somebody was stealing something...another remark which was impossible to ignore. She was questioned and did not actually SEE anything; she only heard the rustling and then heard the siren when the sheriff's people arrived.

I agree with you about GB and socialism, and also about the unlikely connection with a cult or group. Thank you so much for your insights.

Reels
05-30-2010, 02:53 AM
Reels,
I was amazed by your descriptions in the "What do you remember" thread. Yes, I would hope Anna would have memories of her early life. The little girl I was baby-sitting lived far away; I don't think she ever even knew Anna, and she wasn't around when Anna disappeared. Her remark was very strange, considering this (I don't remember her exact words, but it was something like "the lady made the little girl hurry so much, she dropped her doll.")

The man who killed the rooster was the blacksmith the bird made the mistake of attacking. He was questioned very extensively at the time by the police. In fact, I think they made the poor man very miserable. But they were satisfied that he had nothing to do with Anna's disappearance.

I don't remember anything about Texas Equusearch, but neither do I have anything in my files about this (or at least I can't find it), so I doubt we had an answer. There was no crawl space under the house and I can't quite figure out how they might have crossed the creek unless they used the bridge. The dogs ran along the near side of the creek and then headed upstream before they stopped. The neighbor out on horseback on the road above the house said that she heard rustling in the trees along the creek and thought that somebody was stealing something...another remark which was impossible to ignore. She was questioned and did not actually SEE anything; she only heard the rustling and then heard the siren when the sheriff's people arrived.

I agree with you about GB and socialism, and also about the unlikely connection with a cult or group. Thank you so much for your insights.

Ok, so that makes it particularly strange, since the little girl was far away. hm.

Ok, so the man that killed the rooster was probably more of a distraction then. Though I'm glad they questioned him because it seems like a pretty big reaction. I was thinking about it last night, and the rooster's body actually ended up helping when you searched the river, because you could see how far he travelled, and know that if something that relatively small would get snared on something, surely a little girl would.

I keep picturing the river/creek near my house that was randomly deep and shallow, but I have to stop doing that. It is very interesting that the lady heard rustling in the bushes, and I was thinking about it while I was sleeping, and I woke up thinking this:

So this person who kidnapped Anna must have either been closer to 6' tall than 5', and/or had long legs, and/or was in very good shape. I think long legs, because I am 5'8" and I can take some pretty big steps when I am in a rush to arrive somewhere, and I leave my husband, who is 5'6" in the dust. Even though he's in better shape than I am, he has to take twice as many steps as I do, and twice as fast as I do, if he wants to keep up, and it always leaves him out of breath. He can't keep it up for long. If you add our little boy who's not yet 20 pounds and it's basically a futile effort. So even though technically someone shorter could have kidnapped Anna, they would have had to put forth a LOT more effort to get to the creek before anyone noticed her missing, and they would have had to keep their pace upcreek in foliage carrying a 5 year old, which could not have been easy. If there are enough bushes/trees/vines to interfere with the flow of the creek, there are bound to be tree roots and other things on the banks, no? I might be picturing it wrong. A shorter person would encounter more of the low-to-the-ground growth, a taller person would encounter it, but not have as much difficulty stepping over it. At least in my head it would work that way.

Ok I am more than convinced that GW and GB had something to do with this. The two men in the vehicle going west on the road, after being seen going east? There was something there that indicated they had to have turned around somewhere to go west on the road. I think they must have met whoever took Anna, or else the older man dropped the younger one off a bit away from the farm, he approached on foot, and the older man drove up the road to meet the younger man after he kidnapped Anna. That's just my opinion, but that makes more sense to me than anything else, especially with the creek being too deep to cross on foot.

I have to read the BFH threads yet, but I saw reference to a plan.

If you want, I could email Texas Equusearch. I saw that someone contacted them a year or two ago, but I never saw any follow-up to that. Maybe they need a reminder. After Haleigh Cummings went missing (also in Florida), I think a lot of things might have gotten pushed back.

Dr. Doogie
07-18-2010, 02:55 AM
In the early 1970's, there was a series of kidnap/murders in the Santa Rosa area (roughly 75 miles to the north of Half Moon Bay). Here is a link to a website that has several contemporary news articles about a possibly related incident:

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/kursa.html

Here are my thoughts (both pro and con about a possible link):

Pro
* A witness saw three men in a white van abduct the girl.
* The kidnapping occured about five week before Anna's disappearance.
* It is suspected that the perp/perps in the Santa Rosa kidnap/murders was also responsible for the murder of Linda Uhlig whose body was found on Purissima Creek Road about eight months before Anna's disappearance.

Con
* The Santa Rosa victims and Uhlig were all early teens and older - usually hitch-hikers. There are no known victims in Anna's age range.

I have no idea if these are related, but I wanted to put this out for others to give their thoughts about.

OzzieMum
07-19-2010, 04:51 AM
In the early 1970's, there was a series of kidnap/murders in the Santa Rosa area (roughly 75 miles to the north of Half Moon Bay). Here is a link to a website that has several contemporary news articles about a possibly related incident:

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/kursa.html

Here are my thoughts (both pro and con about a possible link):

Pro
* A witness saw three men in a white van abduct the girl.
* The kidnapping occured about five week before Anna's disappearance.
* It is suspected that the perp/perps in the Santa Rosa kidnap/murders was also responsible for the murder of Linda Uhlig whose body was found on Purissima Creek Road about eight months before Anna's disappearance.

Con
* The Santa Rosa victims and Uhlig were all early teens and older - usually hitch-hikers. There are no known victims in Anna's age range.

I have no idea if these are related, but I wanted to put this out for others to give their thoughts about.

Hi Dr Doogie,

I agree about the age difference. Most criminals (any criminal, be it sexual predator, child molester etc) has an MO and this doesn't seem to fit with Anna's disappearance.

I believe it was the 2 Georges, someone that wanted a child to raise as their own, someone that wanted a child that they could illegally adopt out for money or someone that wanted to sell a child on the black market. My bet is still the on 2 Georges.

JMO

Cubby
07-19-2010, 11:34 AM
I agree with the age difference too. Just doesn't fit the MO.

jmo

Cubby
07-19-2010, 11:53 AM
[
quote=Annasmom;5232243]
The neighbor out on horseback on the road above the house said that she heard rustling in the trees along the creek and thought that somebody was stealing something...another remark which was impossible to ignore. She was questioned and did not actually SEE anything; she only heard the rustling and then heard the siren when the sheriff's people arrived.

quote]


Respectfully snipped. I don't know why I didn't think of this before and don't recall this being posted previously, so will ask now.

Where did the neighor who was horse back riding hear this? Where was she riding if anyone recalls. Was she riding on the paved street, a trail?

Is it possible to add the area where she heard this rustling in the trees near the creek onto the drawing of the map of the house and area Anna was last seen by CB when he came to visit that afternoon?

Also, there was discussion about foot prints near the creek when the search was going on. Was there ever evidence of tire tracks near the woods and the creek? Something that looked fresh at an odd spot along the road? In an area that didn't appear as if it were one of the visitors you had that day? I imagine if someone parked even slightly off road when they abducted Anna, if the ground was wet a quick getaway, the tire tracks may have looked different than someone just parking and not gunning it or giving it more gas than one normally would.

I'm not sure why, but maybe that info would help brain storm some more.

tia

Dr. Doogie
07-19-2010, 01:56 PM
My bet is still the on 2 Georges.

Mine too. I just wanted to put this forth for consideration of all possible leads.

The youngest known victim in this series was twelve which, to me, is a big variance from a five-year-old. It was the other factors that concerned me like the van, multiple perps, location, etc.

SideKick
07-19-2010, 04:21 PM
Mine too. I just wanted to put this forth for consideration of all possible leads.

The youngest known victim in this series was twelve which, to me, is a big variance from a five-year-old. It was the other factors that concerned me like the van, multiple perps, location, etc.

~ I'm glad this was mentioned, the old 'leaving no stone unturned'. We really don't know what happened but of course there is a strong indication of who..... took Anna and yes, I feel they made some money removing her from her family to another. UGH. We will find her, I believe strongly that we will find Anna.

OzzieMum
07-20-2010, 04:49 AM
Mine too. I just wanted to put this forth for consideration of all possible leads.

The youngest known victim in this series was twelve which, to me, is a big variance from a five-year-old. It was the other factors that concerned me like the van, multiple perps, location, etc.

Definitely worth putting out there. You just never know if one of these cases might turn up a lead or an idea when one of us goes to research them.

OzzieMum
07-20-2010, 07:25 AM
[
Respectfully snipped. I don't know why I didn't think of this before and don't recall this being posted previously, so will ask now.

Where did the neighor who was horse back riding hear this? Where was she riding if anyone recalls. Was she riding on the paved street, a trail?

Is it possible to add the area where she heard this rustling in the trees near the creek onto the drawing of the map of the house and area Anna was last seen by CB when he came to visit that afternoon?

Also, there was discussion about foot prints near the creek when the search was going on. Was there ever evidence of tire tracks near the woods and the creek? Something that looked fresh at an odd spot along the road? In an area that didn't appear as if it were one of the visitors you had that day? I imagine if someone parked even slightly off road when they abducted Anna, if the ground was wet a quick getaway, the tire tracks may have looked different than someone just parking and not gunning it or giving it more gas than one normally would.

I'm not sure why, but maybe that info would help brain storm some more.

tia

One thing I have never understood is the foot prints near the creek were explained by a neighbour swapping gum boots (sorry, can't remember what you call them over there) with Anna and I can't understand how an adult could fit into a 5 year old child's shoes. I know adults with small feet but not that small.

Annasmom
07-20-2010, 09:14 AM
One thing I have never understood is the foot prints near the creek were explained by a neighbour swapping gum boots (sorry, can't remember what you call them over there) with Anna and I can't understand how an adult could fit into a 5 year old child's shoes. I know adults with small feet but not that small. That is what happened, however. The neighbor had small feet, and of course her boots were big for Anna. The fact that the boots were never found anywhere in or near the creek is one of the main reasons for thinking Anna did not go into the creek, since the boots would have come off and would not break down or be carried away by animals.

Annasmom
07-20-2010, 09:18 AM
[
Respectfully snipped. I don't know why I didn't think of this before and don't recall this being posted previously, so will ask now.

Where did the neighor who was horse back riding hear this? Where was she riding if anyone recalls. Was she riding on the paved street, a trail?

Is it possible to add the area where she heard this rustling in the trees near the creek onto the drawing of the map of the house and area Anna was last seen by CB when he came to visit that afternoon?

Also, there was discussion about foot prints near the creek when the search was going on. Was there ever evidence of tire tracks near the woods and the creek? Something that looked fresh at an odd spot along the road? In an area that didn't appear as if it were one of the visitors you had that day? I imagine if someone parked even slightly off road when they abducted Anna, if the ground was wet a quick getaway, the tire tracks may have looked different than someone just parking and not gunning it or giving it more gas than one normally would.

I'm not sure why, but maybe that info would help brain storm some more.

tia

No tire tracks were noticed; fields adjacent to the driveway were fenced. The neighbor was riding her horse on (paved) Purisima Creek Road, just east of the house. She asked what was going on when she heard the siren and all the commotion and said that she had heard rustling in the bushes down by the creek and thought someone was stealing something.

Cubby
07-20-2010, 12:57 PM
No tire tracks were noticed; fields adjacent to the driveway were fenced. The neighbor was riding her horse on (paved) Purisima Creek Road, just east of the house. She asked what was going on when she heard the siren and all the commotion and said that she had heard rustling in the bushes down by the creek and thought someone was stealing something.


Thank you for clarifying this Annasmom. I don't know that I remember it being posted the neighbor on the horse heard this noise east of the creek. (Could be my brain isn't holding everything I have read here :) ) To refresh our memory can you tell us approximately how many feet are between the road and the creek?

I'm not sure if I think the noise the neighbor heard was the person who abducted Anna or it was possibly a noise from an animal.

If someone took Anna from near the creek, IIRC the bridge and access to a road or path was on the west side of the house. Is that correct? Was there easy access or a path between the road and the creek on the east side of the house? You said the fields surrounding the driveway where fenced. I'm trying to create a picture of where someone could escape with Anna from near the creek to the road. I'm sorry for so many questions and sorry if this was answered some time ago. I am just trying to create enough of a picture so I and possibly others can see this in our mind.

Annasmom
07-20-2010, 01:47 PM
Thank you for clarifying this Annasmom. I don't know that I remember it being posted the neighbor on the horse heard this noise east of the creek. (Could be my brain isn't holding everything I have read here :) ) To refresh our memory can you tell us approximately how many feet are between the road and the creek?

I'm not sure if I think the noise the neighbor heard was the person who abducted Anna or it was possibly a noise from an animal.

If someone took Anna from near the creek, IIRC the bridge and access to a road or path was on the west side of the house. Is that correct? Was there easy access or a path between the road and the creek on the east side of the house? You said the fields surrounding the driveway where fenced. I'm trying to create a picture of where someone could escape with Anna from near the creek to the road. I'm sorry for so many questions and sorry if this was answered some time ago. I am just trying to create enough of a picture so I and possibly others can see this in our mind.
Here's a sketch with a guess as to the distance from the road to the creek (I am not good at estimating distances, however.) There wouldn't have been any animals in the brush beside the creek during daylight. Another point is that the tracking dogs turned east (upstream) before they gave up. Do ask me anything which isn't clear on this drawing.

Cubby
07-20-2010, 02:32 PM
Thank you Annasmom. 400' is good. IIUC (making up a new abbv, if I understand correctly) the neighbor would have heard this withing appx 400' of wherever along the creek she heard this. I assume it was fairly close to the house. and she probably heard it pretty clearly if the 'brush' was dry enough which it sounds like it likely was.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the possibility she heard an animal. While it is very infrequent I have seen coyote, deer and red fox all during daylight and even between 1-3pm.

While it is also possible what she heard was a branch falling, especially if she did not hear what sounded like running or movement for a distance but rather in a single spot or limited area.

I'm not confirming or disputing so much but rather thinking outloud.

hth and JMO

Annasmom
07-20-2010, 07:04 PM
Thank you Annasmom. 400' is good. IIUC (making up a new abbv, if I understand correctly) the neighbor would have heard this withing appx 400' of wherever along the creek she heard this. I assume it was fairly close to the house. and she probably heard it pretty clearly if the 'brush' was dry enough which it sounds like it likely was.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the possibility she heard an animal. While it is very infrequent I have seen coyote, deer and red fox all during daylight and even between 1-3pm.

While it is also possible what she heard was a branch falling, especially if she did not hear what sounded like running or movement for a distance but rather in a single spot or limited area.

I'm not confirming or disputing so much but rather thinking outloud.

hth and JMO

These were not tall trees, more like overgrown shrubs, and they were wet from the rain that day, so hearing a branch falling would be unlikely. We had gophers, birds and various domestic animals, but in all the time we lived there I never saw fox, coyote, deer or any other wild animal anywhere near the farm. I would think that there were raccoons, skunks, etc., about at night, but we never saw them. The only dog on the farm at that time was Saturn, and he did not go exploring by himself (besides which, he was at the house.) The horses and cows were all in fenced areas. The brush was very dense, so that if a person were trying to walk on the bank alongside the creek, there would have been a rustling noise. There was only an open field between the neighbor on horseback and the creek.

GraceBlue
07-21-2010, 07:07 PM
Ok, Anna was wearing oversized boots...if someone had picked her up, would they come off right away?

Several thoughts come to mind:

-There were no footprints at the creek and no boots were found up or downstream.
-She disappeared in such a short time (a span of 15 mins?) and she was wearing oversized boots. She couldnt have walked far that fast without a boot falling off, especially upstream/uphill.
-If someone on horseback or hiding behind some bushes snatched her, would the boots have fallen off?


How fast could Anna walk with these oversized boots on in the mud after all the rain.

OzzieMum
07-22-2010, 04:58 AM
Ok, Anna was wearing oversized boots...if someone had picked her up, would they come off right away?

Several thoughts come to mind:

-There were no footprints at the creek and no boots were found up or downstream.
-She disappeared in such a short time (a span of 15 mins?) and she was wearing oversized boots. She couldnt have walked far that fast without a boot falling off, especially upstream/uphill.
-If someone on horseback or hiding behind some bushes snatched her, would the boots have fallen off?


How fast could Anna walk with these oversized boots on in the mud after all the rain.

Good questions Grace.

GraceBlue
07-22-2010, 01:06 PM
One more question...wasn't Purisima Creek Rd higher up in elevation than the house? I vaguely remember this being mentioned. So if Anna went to get the mail in the oversized rainboots, she would've had to walk up a 'hill' Correct? So when CB arrived at the house at 2:10pm Anna was playing in front of the house...she was discovered missing around 2:15-2:20 pm. How long would it have taken Anna to walk up the hill in the mud, in oversized boots to the mailbox? Or did she already get the mail?

Annasmom
07-22-2010, 10:19 PM
One more question...wasn't Purisima Creek Rd higher up in elevation than the house? I vaguely remember this being mentioned. So if Anna went to get the mail in the oversized rainboots, she would've had to walk up a 'hill' Correct? So when CB arrived at the house at 2:10pm Anna was playing in front of the house...she was discovered missing around 2:15-2:20 pm. How long would it have taken Anna to walk up the hill in the mud, in oversized boots to the mailbox? Or did she already get the mail?
We had a gravel driveway leading to the hard-packed farm driveway which came off Purisima Creek Road, so she wouldn't have walked in mud and it would only have taken a few seconds to go from the house to the road. I think I have misled you about the boots. They were actually Anna's boots, inherited from her brother, somewhat oversized, but not so much it would have impeded her walking. She and the neighbor had jokingly exchanged boots, but then went back to their own. The reason this was mentioned was that when tracks were noticed near the creek, the neighbor said she thought they were her tracks...she had been down there, looking for Anna, before the police came; she explained that her feet and Anna's were nearly the same size. Anna had not already gotten the mail. She may have been on her way to get it when she greeted the visitor.

GraceBlue
07-23-2010, 09:14 AM
Thank you for clarifying that Annasmom. I dont know why I thought she was still wearing the adult boots, I feel silly :o

Annasmom
07-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Thank you for clarifying that Annasmom. I dont know why I thought she was still wearing the adult boots, I feel silly :o
I really described the boot-trading as if Anna were still wearing Suzy's boots, but when I thought about it a bit, it became more clear in my mind. I'm the one who should feel silly, GraceBlue! But the more I think about it, the more problematic it becomes about how the visitor could have seen Anna out in front of the house minutes before she went missing--versus placing her near the brush. Oh, and I didn't answer your question about the road being higher than the house. Yes, it was a very steep little grade and there was only one small window and also a large wild rose bush on the street side of the house, so we couldn't see the road from the living room.

SideKick
07-24-2010, 07:42 AM
Was the mailman checked out?
How convenient for Anna to run up to the mailbox just in time for the mail truck....
The last visitor apparently did not see anyone parked near the house if I am recalling correctly?


Sorry my question is short but to the point, yesterday we were at the hospital with my motherinlaw for 11 hours, she underwent a leg amputation, poor 90 yr old woman, such a trooper. I'll be back most of today as well if I don't reply or contribute over the weekend. Needless to say we are more than exhausted.

much love

Annasmom
07-24-2010, 10:02 AM
Was the mailman checked out?
How convenient for Anna to run up to the mailbox just in time for the mail truck....
The last visitor apparently did not see anyone parked near the house if I am recalling correctly?


Sorry my question is short but to the point, yesterday we were at the hospital with my motherinlaw for 11 hours, she underwent a leg amputation, poor 90 yr old woman, such a trooper. I'll be back most of today as well if I don't reply or contribute over the weekend. Needless to say we are more than exhausted.

much love
That day's mail had not yet been delivered. Our neighbor was looking at her previous day's mail, which is why we thought maybe Anna thought the mail had come. The mail delivery person (a woman) came somewhat later and was questioned. I had lunch with her a couple of weeks ago. The visitor did not see anyone parked near the house.

I'm sending hugs and good thoughts for recovery for your mother-in-law...get some rest!

Cubby
10-04-2010, 05:28 AM
bump ....

Cubby
01-14-2012, 10:33 PM
:bump:

bumping the theory threads back to the top of the page.

SideKick
08-20-2012, 12:02 PM
I know we've hacked this thought two and fro, high and low but it nags at me because I don't feel (in my gut) that the thought of Bill Sharp (the handyman in San Mateo) didn't have contact with Anna. Bill's daughter? was approached and SherlockJR and Dr. Doogie spoke with her but she was hesitant and giving information out and they felt she was holding something back. This daughter may have had her own issue's at the time however, I still feel more investigative should take place with this family. What if Bill Sharp had contact with Anna, changed her name to Anna Sharp? Is there an Anna Sharp in San Mateo County? Did Anna give birth - would it be on the California Birth Index?
Sorry... but I need clarification that there is NO WAY Sidekick!! We're done with that avenue. Are we really done with that avenue?

Hugzz.. SK.

Annasmom
08-20-2012, 08:11 PM
I know we've hacked this thought two and fro, high and low but it nags at me because I don't feel (in my gut) that the thought of Bill Sharp (the handyman in San Mateo) didn't have contact with Anna. Bill's daughter? was approached and SherlockJR and Dr. Doogie spoke with her but she was hesitant and giving information out and they felt she was holding something back. This daughter may have had her own issue's at the time however, I still feel more investigative should take place with this family. What if Bill Sharp had contact with Anna, changed her name to Anna Sharp? Is there an Anna Sharp in San Mateo County? Did Anna give birth - would it be on the California Birth Index?
Sorry... but I need clarification that there is NO WAY Sidekick!! We're done with that avenue. Are we really done with that avenue?

Hugzz.. SK.

Maybe I am just having a senior moment, but I can't think for the life of me who Bill Sharp is.

Cubby
08-20-2012, 10:23 PM
Bill Sharp/William Sharp is mentioned in the following thread. He is not the person who was mentioned by the tipster. He was discussed as a perp in the area for a similiar abduction/crime.

Santa Clara girl abducted & similiar abductions time/area to Anna's disappearance. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

SideKick
08-21-2012, 10:47 AM
Bill Sharp/William Sharp is mentioned in the following thread. He is not the person who was mentioned by the tipster. He was discussed as a perp in the area for a similiar abduction/crime.

Santa Clara girl abducted & similiar abductions time/area to Anna's disappearance. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68449)

~~ My apologies for not setting his name straight.

SideKick
08-21-2012, 10:53 AM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Santa Clara girl abducted & similiar abductions time/area to Anna's disappearance.

A post from Dr. Doogie in regards to the tipster.

SideKick
08-21-2012, 11:00 AM
I just find the conversation with the tipster very interesting. Why would she comment on Bill and Anna at all? Would she have been that mentally ill and perhaps confused? Can we find out this Bill's last name?

Cubby
08-21-2012, 11:05 AM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Santa Clara girl abducted & similiar abductions time/area to Anna's disappearance. (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2469547&postcount=21)

A post from Dr. Doogie in regards to the tipster.


Thank you for finding this, SideKick. I was pretty tired last night when I was searching for the area where this info was posted.

(thinking outloud) .... so the tipster has the same last name as this person who was charged with abducting another child, but she remembers Bill as a possible tenant. Her memory was 3 years after Anna was abducted, and also after the William Sharp (Jack someone or other, haven't had enough coffee yet) mentioned in the thread I linked had been charged with kidnap.


As others, I'm not sure where we can go with this to answer any further questions. Do you have any idea's how we might pursue further exporation of this area, because I'm stumped on this one as far as the tipster.

I did notice it appears we did not uncover where this William Sharp that was mentioned was in 73 nor did I see where his sentencing was found after his charges. Perhaps that might be an area to pursue?

Real life has been pretty hectic lately so I won't be able to spend much time delving into this area again, if anyone else is able to please do so!

Cubby
08-21-2012, 11:19 AM
~~ My apologies for not setting his name straight.


No worries. He is mentioned as both Bill and William elsewhere in the forum which is why I added both names. I just wanted to make the search easier for anyone wishing to search back within the forum for this info.

SideKick
08-22-2012, 03:30 PM
http://www.californiabirthindex.org/

If you put last name only in. ie: Sharp .... first names of children come up. If you click on the names, the info of when they were born comes up along with the mother's maiden name and if the child is still alive, how old she would be now.

So... searching if Anna had a child and Anna's last name is was/is Sharp.... Have fun, and Good Luck!
Need help with this huge list!!

SK

MissMarple
09-28-2012, 03:43 PM
http://www.californiabirthindex.org/

If you put last name only in. ie: Sharp .... first names of children come up. If you click on the names, the info of when they were born comes up along with the mother's maiden name and if the child is still alive, how old she would be now.

So... searching if Anna had a child and Anna's last name is was/is Sharp.... Have fun, and Good Luck!
Need help with this huge list!!

SK

Please correct me if I am wrong but seems to me that it has been mentioned that this person was giving similar names to rhyme? Name can be similar to Anna....

They just need additional field mother's maiden name