NY NY - WhtFem Photo in the possession of John Smith, convicted killer [Archive]

q64ceo

03-30-2006, 12:10 AM

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1569dfpa.html
Is Anne Riggin.

http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase3.html
Is an unknown female.

Download the unknown womens pic, and zoom over her right eye. You can see the same scar that Anne Riggin has. Plus, the unknown women meets the eye/hair requirement, and the hairstyles are extremely similar.

http://izeus.8m.com/12.htm (http://izeus.8m.com/12.jpg)
My photo comparison of the two.

http://izeus.8m.com/11.jpg
A blow up of Hot Case #3 photo

PonderingThings

03-30-2006, 05:43 AM

They do look a lot alike. I think its an excellent match.

inquiringmindz

03-30-2006, 01:04 PM

Excellent sleuthing! :clap: Turn this info in as you may have just made a match!

q64ceo

03-30-2006, 01:39 PM

Already did yesterday. Dunno what will come of it. I have a problem. There is no FBI office in Maine, and when I tried Penn. FBI office, they told me to call the FBI office in Maine. I told the NY FBI office.

PonderingThings

03-30-2006, 03:35 PM

If you'd like you can follow it up by submitting a tip via the FBI tip web page. That way you can include links

https://tips.fbi.gov/

annemc2

03-30-2006, 10:04 PM

NICE! Boy, oh boy I hope this one pans out - your sleuthing abilities are most righteous! The photo of this unidentified woman has always given me the creeps, probably because something horrible most likely happened to her. Thanks for posting!

lostfaith

03-30-2006, 10:18 PM

The Doe network page says the scar is above her left eye. But on your side by sides you have her right eyes circles.

That confuses me, or am I reading it wrong.

Other than that, I think they look alot alike and is worth checking out.

Good job!

q64ceo

03-31-2006, 08:23 AM

The Doe network page says the scar is above her left eye. But on your side by sides you have her right eyes circles.

That confuses me, or am I reading it wrong.

Other than that, I think they look alot alike and is worth checking out.

Good job!

Could it be her left/our right?

awagner

04-01-2006, 03:16 AM

Did you call and ask for the contact person on this case or did you just call the number and try to give the information? Those hot cases state that they are there at the request of LE so the person listed with the case should be who you talk to.

(F.B.I. : Special Agent Robert Hilland NY Office. (518) 431-7205 )

I think the noses are remarkably similar...

q64ceo

04-01-2006, 06:37 AM

Did you call and ask for the contact person on this case or did you just call the number and try to give the information? Those hot cases state that they are there at the request of LE so the person listed with the case should be who you talk to.

(F.B.I. : Special Agent Robert Hilland NY Office. (518) 431-7205 )

I think the noses are remarkably similar... I did talk to him, and when the Col. from Penn comes back from vacation on the 4th, i will call him too.

I also have added a transparent photo of the women. I am 100% sure it is her because the scar is the exact lenght width and height

http://izeus.8m.com/riggin.htm

Check it out and see for yourself!

awagner

04-04-2006, 03:42 AM

I dont actually see a scar. The photo is too low resolution. but I see a strong resemblence in the side by side photos..

I am confused though (guess you are too) as to why this agent would be listed as the contact person for this case and then he pushes you off to another agency .. for crying out loud. Would it be that hard for him to make that PA contact? This is how leads get lost I believe. People get tired of a run around when they have tips.

MistyM

04-04-2006, 06:37 AM

what got me, and this may be quite insignificant, is how her hair naturally falls over (our) right side of her forehead. it's like she has a little cowlick or something. and it's similar in both pictures.

mom3dd

04-04-2006, 07:44 PM

Have you heard anything yet?

q64ceo

04-05-2006, 08:29 PM

I dont actually see a scar. The photo is too low resolution. but I see a strong resemblence in the side by side photos..

I am confused though (guess you are too) as to why this agent would be listed as the contact person for this case and then he pushes you off to another agency .. for crying out loud. Would it be that hard for him to make that PA contact? This is how leads get lost I believe. People get tired of a run around when they have tips.
Actually, I want to contact him to make sure the tip goes somewhere. Check the last photo on my page, the inverted color one...get about 20-40 inches away from your monitor. Does that help?

inquiringmindz

04-27-2006, 11:55 PM

Any updates?

kitty

04-28-2006, 12:04 AM

How observant! I really hope this goes somewhere. Any updates?

q64ceo

04-28-2006, 05:12 AM

no, unfortunatly.

englishleigh

04-28-2006, 09:35 AM

The resemblance is startling!! The nose is what got me...they are identical. I think you are definitely onto something, I can't wait to hear an update.

fran

04-28-2006, 09:57 AM

no, unfortunatly.

Don't give up. I think you're right.

Good job!

fran

txsvicki

04-29-2006, 05:14 AM

I went to the Doe site and looked through some missing and found case photos. There's so many. It's depressing. It's great that you found this. I've heard of people on the internet who search this type of thing to help match found victims with pics of the missing. Does anyone know if there is a certain group or forum that is dedicated to doing this?

WholeLottaRosie

04-29-2006, 01:05 PM

I went to the Doe site and looked through some missing and found case photos. There's so many. It's depressing. It's great that you found this. I've heard of people on the internet who search this type of thing to help match found victims with pics of the missing. Does anyone know if there is a certain group or forum that is dedicated to doing this?You are already on the best site on the net - Websleuths!!!! Welcome.

Medusa

txsvicki

04-30-2006, 02:28 AM

You are already on the best site on the net - Websleuths!!!! Welcome.

Medusa

Lol, yes I know. I caught the end of a program on TV that was talking about people on the internet matching up found victims and the missing. I just wondered if they meant crime sleuthers in general or if there is a specific group or forum that does this all the time.

ttrachel04

07-01-2008, 02:25 PM

I thought this was interesting ... I found it this morning on the DoeNetwork. One of the 'hot cases.'

A photograph was found in possession of a convicted killer. The killer, John Smith, was convicted of killing his ex-wife. To top if off, his second wife is also missing (and I'm guessing he was a suspect).

Smith also had skull fragments and teeth in his possession. So I'm guessing that there is concern for the safety of the girl in the photo!!!

Here's the link!!!

http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase3.html

pixies

07-01-2008, 02:51 PM

She looks like his missing wife in her younger days.
Could it be his wifes daughter or some kin to her?

thefragile7393

07-01-2008, 03:32 PM

That's along the lines of what I was thinking too......

T-Rex

07-01-2008, 03:59 PM

That picture looks like it was taken in the 1970s. Like 1979.

Julessleuther

07-01-2008, 06:49 PM

Here are some other pictures:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/smith_betty.html

NJshrink

09-15-2008, 01:36 AM

I have been following Fran Smith's case and have spoken to West Windsor, NJ police. They have identified this woman as Katherine Ross. She is alive.

Filly

09-15-2008, 01:57 AM

I have been following Fran Smith's case and have spoken to West Windsor, NJ police. They have identified this woman as Katherine Ross. She is alive.

Oh Bless Katherine Ross. No doubt she is one fortunate woman to be alive.

Teresa Larson

09-15-2008, 04:50 AM

If Fran is alive and well then why is her picture still on the Doe Network? I am confused.

NJshrink

09-15-2008, 06:41 AM

Fran disappeared in 1991 from NJ. It is believed that she is not alive. Her husband John Smith III is convicted of murdering his first (?) wife in 1974 and is serving time in prison. Some pictures were found in his possession when he was arrested in CA and not identified. Fran Smith's remains have still not been located. John had ties to MA, FL, CT, NJ, OH, TX, CA and possibly a few more states. He may be a serial murderer. The case is well documented in the book MY SISTER IS MISSING: Bringing a Killer to Justice by Sherrie Gladden-Davis.

kline

09-15-2008, 07:37 AM

Ditto for me on the photo looking circa 1979.

Reannan

09-15-2008, 08:09 AM

You would think if the picture of the UID girl was Betty Smith, her family would have recognized it. Something looks different about the eyes to me. John apparently had a thing for women that looked similar, however.

teonspaleprincess

09-15-2008, 08:28 AM

I have been following Fran Smith's case and have spoken to West Windsor, NJ police. They have identified this woman as Katherine Ross. She is alive.

Has Doe Network been notified so they can remove the pic of the now identified girl?

BeavisMom62

09-16-2008, 08:06 AM

If Fran is alive and well then why is her picture still on the Doe Network? I am confused.
Fran is dead but Katherine Ross is still alive. But it's confusing that they still have her pic on the Doe Network. TL. They should take it down.

Tom Friendly

09-23-2008, 12:36 PM

I thought this was interesting ... I found it this morning on the DoeNetwork. One of the 'hot cases.'

A photograph was found in possession of a convicted killer. The killer, John Smith, was convicted of killing his ex-wife. To top if off, his second wife is also missing (and I'm guessing he was a suspect).

Smith also had skull fragments and teeth in his possession. So I'm guessing that there is concern for the safety of the girl in the photo!!!

Here's the link!!!

http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase3.html

Hey for those following this case I've come across a movie about it. It's called "Murder On Pleasant Drive" and was made in 2006.

Synopsis is:
After Fran Smith disappears one day in mysterious circumstances, Fran's daughter Deanna and Fran's sister, Sherrie endlessly search for her with enduring hope. The most likely suspect in Fran's disappearance is her husband John, but without a body, neither Deanna or Sherrie can prove that murder, much less a crime, has even been committed. With the support of Sherrie, Deanna embarks on an eleven-year search to trace John's past, eventually uncovering a 25 year-old case of a missing person that involved John's first wife, who too, disappeared under suspicious circumstances. Using this lead, Deanna and Sherrie must use all their evidence to bring John to justice.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493361/

mel36

11-04-2008, 04:43 PM

The black and white one looks like a senior class pic..

jodierenee

07-09-2009, 01:33 PM

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3945070&posted=1#post3945070

Did anyone ever hear anything back about Hot Case #3?

Mazama

07-09-2009, 01:56 PM

The Doe network page says the scar is above her left eye. But on your side by sides you have her right eyes circles.

That confuses me, or am I reading it wrong.

Other than that, I think they look alot alike and is worth checking out.

Good job!

Although the two women look similar, Anne's scar is above her left eye as per the Doe network page. The picture submitted by q64ceo has the right eye circled. Sadly, I don't think it is a match. :(

Cymro

07-09-2009, 03:32 PM

I've adjusted the photos so that they resemble each other some more...

http://i25.tinypic.com/2h31ueb.jpg

I agree the resemblance between the scars (if that is what they are and not JPG artefacts) is startling - but we would need better quality originals.

JulieR

07-09-2009, 10:12 PM

Is there a working link to the unknown female?

Fairy1

07-09-2009, 10:23 PM

Is there a working link to the unknown female?

http://www.njsp.org/miss/ui_morris_u786215594.html

This looks like a great possible match. The geographics are right on. I just wonder about the time difference.

ASU2USC

07-10-2009, 05:07 PM

For some reason, I believe I read somewhere that the unknown female had been identified and found safe. Let me see if I can dig up where I saw that.

ASU2USC

07-10-2009, 05:12 PM

Girl in the photo - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

That's where someone said that the person was Katherine Ross - I haven't been able to find an article or anything verifying that. Maybe someone can PM NJShrink and see what their basis is for the assertion that the person is Katherine Ross.

JulieR

07-12-2009, 10:19 PM

http://www.njsp.org/miss/ui_morris_u786215594.html

This looks like a great possible match. The geographics are right on. I just wonder about the time difference.

I really think it looks like her, you should call it in. Maybe she was being held against her will for a few years.

NJshrink

09-30-2009, 02:35 PM

In researching the West Windsor, NJ missing case of Fran Gladden-Smith, I spoke to the local West Windsor police. I believe the picture was found among John David Smith III's possessions when he was arrested for the murder of his first wife, Janice E. Hartman. The local police said this woman was identified as Katherine Ross and she had no idea why her picture was among his possessions.

believe09

12-14-2011, 10:35 AM

I am re-opening this thread so that we can continue to sleuth this Jane Doe. Let's at least dig in an see if she has been id'd yet.

q64ceo

12-14-2011, 10:36 AM

I am re-opening this thread so that we can continue to sleuth this Jane Doe. Let's at least dig in an see if she has been id'd yet.

Thank you for accepting my appeal

q64ceo

12-14-2011, 10:56 AM

Ok, now that this is reopened again, I still think Riggin could be a possibility.

You cannot ignore the scar.

I will give you a little update.

I called the FBI with this tip 5 years ago. I have not heard anything at all back. That kinda ticks me off.

I never called the Cold Case division in PA. I will give them a call and get back to you guys.

Edit: I lost two years over this premature dismissal. I can't get them back, but what I can do is do my best to ensure that when Paula Zahn's program airs that they will be able to confirm or not that this is Riggin.

q64ceo

12-14-2011, 12:02 PM

Waiting on a phone call from the police to take my statement.

In other news, this case is still open.

Hotecase 3 has been assigned a Doe Network case file

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/812ufus.html

CarlK90245

12-14-2011, 02:06 PM

http://www.njsp.org/miss/ui_morris_u786215594.html

This looks like a great possible match. The geographics are right on. I just wonder about the time difference.

The Morris County UID was a victim of serial killer Joel Rifkin.

q64ceo

12-14-2011, 02:21 PM

I got some fresh eyes on my possible match. These people are uninvolved in this community. They are from a different internet community that I am part of.

They honestly told me they don't think that its her.

Its nice to have an honest perspective. But, the image quality is very poor, and that is what is keeping to see if that is a scar above JD's eye or not.

OnlineInstructor

12-14-2011, 02:32 PM

Possible?

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/9089/29

q64ceo

12-14-2011, 02:34 PM

Possible?

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/9089/29

That one does get mentioned a lot. The biggest problem that I see is that John David Smith had no connection to Texas, the state where she is missing from.

q64ceo

01-22-2012, 01:18 AM

Paula zahn program aired last night. It will air at 3am again tody for those interested (on investigations discovery)

Lera213

01-22-2012, 01:34 AM

to me the OP original photo's while they do look similar I don't think they are. The mouth..one has a smaller mouth and the other is a much bigger lip span.

q64ceo

01-22-2012, 01:36 AM

to me the OP original photo's while they do look similar I don't think they are. The mouth..one has a smaller mouth and the other is a much bigger lip span.

Th picture quality is terrible. I am gonna grab a screenshot of th pix when it airs at 3am, it will be of better quality

CarlK90245

01-22-2012, 01:37 AM

Waiting on a phone call from the police to take my statement.

In other news, this case is still open.

Hotecase 3 has been assigned a Doe Network case file

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/812ufus.html
I got some fresh eyes on my possible match. These people are uninvolved in this community. They are from a different internet community that I am part of.

They honestly told me they don't think that its her.

Its nice to have an honest perspective. But, the image quality is very poor, and that is what is keeping to see if that is a scar above JD's eye or not.

I don't think she's Anne Riggin either. The bridges of their noses are much different. The low point of the bridge of Anne's nose falls above eye level. The low point of the mystery woman's nose bridge falls below eye level. Also, The mystery woman has a pointier chin and narrower jawline.

Cubby

01-22-2012, 01:42 PM

:bump:

bessie

01-22-2012, 03:30 PM

Riggin's eyes are narrow-set, while the UID woman's eyes are distinctly wide-set. That's the first thing that jumped out at me. There's an obvious difference in the distance between the inner corners of the eyes in the two women, and it relates to what Carl pointed out about the nose bridges being higher or lower than the eyeline.

I also agree with Lera that Riggin's mouth appears much narrower than the other woman's. FWIW, I don't put a lot of weight into the scar as a determining factor because I know a woman with a similar large scar on the right side of her forehead from an injury she sustained in an automobile accident. JMHO But if the Doe does have a scar, I'd love to see higher quality images to compare the finer details.

traacker13

07-11-2012, 03:13 PM

Does anyone think that these three cases may be linked?

UID found in Texas in 1982:

https://identifyus.org/cases/4601

Jeanette Drzewiecki:

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/9089/29

And the photo of the girl that John Smith took:

http://doenetwork.org/cases/812ufus.html

CarlK90245

07-11-2012, 06:20 PM

http://www.charleyproject.org/images/d/drzewiecki_jeannette.jpghttp://doenetwork.org/cases/images/hotcase3.jpg

Jeanette sure does look like the woman in the photo (812UFUS).

I'm not seeing the resemblance to NamUs UP 4601, though.

nola

07-22-2012, 06:25 PM

I just stumbled on to this thread via Janice Younger's thread... and, while I had heard about (tv show) the lady found by the brother-in-law in a box, I never knew that there were unknowns associated with John Smith.

You all have been involved in this case for a good time so I wondered if someone could share with me information about Smith's whereabouts from 1974 or so until 1980. Are there any records to show where he lived, worked or traveled during that time? And again for the period after his second wife went missing 1991 through 1998?

Also, which lady/photo was identified as K Ross? Young one or older lady?

Sorry for all my questions, just trying to play catch up.

I sort think that the young girl looks like Arroyo Grande Jane Doe (Henderson, NV), but wonder if there is any connection for Smith with the Vegas area. Travel, work, or live there or near?
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Facial%20Reconstructions%20002/2578205470045078242S600x600Q851.jpghttp://doenetwork.org/cases/images/hotcase3.jpg
Thanks so - I am glad this thread is here!