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View Full Version : CO CO - White River Natl Forest, WhtMale 789UMCO, 35-65, In Tent @Remote Campsite Sep'04



Rle7
05-06-2006, 04:50 PM
The case is as cold as the bones, which lay bleaching for perhaps five summers and five winters before the man's remains finally were found in remote underbrush in the White River National Forest.



The skeleton was found at what appeared to have been the campsite for a well-provisioned sleep among the pines. The man died in a sleeping bag under a domed tent with $620 in cash, 20 packs of Camel cigarettes and a pair of size 9M Timberland brown-and-black hiking boots, but with no identification. There was no sign of foul play.

"He just didn't leave his name on anything," said Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario.

The sheriff's office hopes that a possible farewell note addressed to someone called "Lib" might lead to the identification of the skeletal remains discovered nearly two years ago in the drainage of No Name Creek at about 9,700 feet elevation. The site is about 6 miles as the crow flies from Glenwood Springs, but 12 miles by the Transfer Trail out of town.

"If somebody says, 'I'm going to drive to the mountains of Colorado and kill myself,' they'll kill themselves in their car or park and walk into the forest and kill themselves," Vallario said. "But this case is not like that."

The man carried currency dated as late as 1999, leading to the conclusion he had been dead for at least five years before his remains were found Sept. 8, 2004.

His final notes, recently deciphered from a deteriorated notebook found with the skeleton, opens something like this: "I should wait in case my situation here doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey."

The pocket-sized, green, spiral notebook has hand-drawn artwork on the cover, including some figures and what may be a cat within a heart.

After the first weathered page, the next four or five pages are increasingly difficult to interpret, but the message seems to be a request for someone to claim the corpse, cremate it and conduct a service.

The bones have offered a few clues: The man was white, about 6 feet tall and probably in his late 40s to late 50s. However, the skeleton also showed evidence of arthritis and degeneration in the bones of the neck and back, which would have caused pain while carrying a pack.

A forensic odontologist's inspection of the teeth provided more clues: The man had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth, suggesting the man had money. So far, the leads and tips to the sheriff's office have been dead-ends. The case remains a mystery, the man's identity a needle in a haystack.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4678855,00.html

websurfer
05-12-2006, 08:53 AM
:)

Greetings friends....I am new here....
my request is for anyone named "LIB" who may know a man who went missing between 1999-2004
He had several items with him including a green spiral 4"x5" notebook.
on the cover he drew a heart inside the heart is a cat+ a bell+a cross

rather than try and explain this to you please look at the two colorado
newspaper articles about it.
Post Independent from April 20,2006 article by: Dennis webb
also you will find an article in the Rocky Mountain News
from may6,2006
local section written by Joe Garner
There is alist of items with him including these:
reading[wire rimmed glasses]
sunglasses
a Sweetwater-water-filtration kit
20[once a carton?] Camel cigarettes packs
8-multi colored butane lighters
pocket sized Battleship game
"4 in 1" Radio Shack Game
Silver[Sharper Image] binoculars
a Bell?[could be cat bell?
was wearing a black belt[don't know type pf buckle]
blue backpack
yellow+green plastic poncho
brown sleeping bag
blue hairbrush
six $100.00
one$10.00
one$5.00
five$1.00
=620.00.........which in his note he asks "LIB" to use to creamate his remains...in the note in the 4"x5" spiral notebook

one pair of SIZE 9 M Timberland hiking boots brown& black[shown in gallery at the newspaper site]

Green Eureka dome tent

Blue & Black Jansport backpack

Green camping pillow


plus other items....which can be seen at the Garfield County police department

If you have any information,call Garfield County Sheriff's Office,970-945-1377
Ext.1025

To call anonymously,call CrimeTips ,970-384-3625

or email at
crimetips@garfield-county.com
I am hoping the word can be passed around and that this man gets a proper
burial thanks!

Melly
05-12-2006, 09:34 AM
This is the Rocky Mountain News article:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4678855,00.html

And this is the Post Independent article:

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20060420/VALLEYNEWS/104200035/0/ARCHIVES

websurfer
05-12-2006, 09:52 AM
:clap:
This is the Rocky Mountain News article:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4678855,00.html

And this is the Post Independent article:

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20060420/VALLEYNEWS/104200035/0/ARCHIVES

websurfer
05-12-2006, 09:59 AM
The case is as cold as the bones, which lay bleaching for perhaps five summers and five winters before the man's remains finally were found in remote underbrush in the White River National Forest.



The skeleton was found at what appeared to have been the campsite for a well-provisioned sleep among the pines. The man died in a sleeping bag under a domed tent with $620 in cash, 20 packs of Camel cigarettes and a pair of size 9M Timberland brown-and-black hiking boots, but with no identification. There was no sign of foul play.

"He just didn't leave his name on anything," said Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario.

The sheriff's office hopes that a possible farewell note addressed to someone called "Lib" might lead to the identification of the skeletal remains discovered nearly two years ago in the drainage of No Name Creek at about 9,700 feet elevation. The site is about 6 miles as the crow flies from Glenwood Springs, but 12 miles by the Transfer Trail out of town.

"If somebody says, 'I'm going to drive to the mountains of Colorado and kill myself,' they'll kill themselves in their car or park and walk into the forest and kill themselves," Vallario said. "But this case is not like that."

The man carried currency dated as late as 1999, leading to the conclusion he had been dead for at least five years before his remains were found Sept. 8, 2004.

His final notes, recently deciphered from a deteriorated notebook found with the skeleton, opens something like this: "I should wait in case my situation here doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey."

The pocket-sized, green, spiral notebook has hand-drawn artwork on the cover, including some figures and what may be a cat within a heart.

After the first weathered page, the next four or five pages are increasingly difficult to interpret, but the message seems to be a request for someone to claim the corpse, cremate it and conduct a service.

The bones have offered a few clues: The man was white, about 6 feet tall and probably in his late 40s to late 50s. However, the skeleton also showed evidence of arthritis and degeneration in the bones of the neck and back, which would have caused pain while carrying a pack.

A forensic odontologist's inspection of the teeth provided more clues: The man had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth, suggesting the man had money. So far, the leads and tips to the sheriff's office have been dead-ends. The case remains a mystery, the man's identity a needle in a haystack.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4678855,00.html
thank you..I am researching this case...also still no leads...

Melly
05-12-2006, 10:16 AM
No problem. :)

SewingDeb
05-12-2006, 10:44 AM
This a very interesting case. Apparently there were no missing persons reports that fit this man....sad. I hope someone is able to find Lib.

outofthedark
05-12-2006, 06:51 PM
The UID's notebook/diary could be a big clue as to who he is if a website had a bigger image and closeup of his diary- a photographed excerpt could be much help as someone could possibly identify his handwriting- depending what shape the diary is in now to possibly do that as the diary could possibly be too aged to try and do that because of how long it would have been sitting out in weather along with the body...

Richard
05-23-2006, 10:53 PM
Here is a recently posted story about an unknown camper found by hunters some five years or so after his death... It is more recent than the "Mr. Bones" case of Bedford, PA. Maybe this one can be solved.
--------------------------------------
Unidentified White Male
The victim was discovered on September 8, 2004 in the Flat Tops, Garfield County, Colorado
Estimated Date of Death: No longer than 5 years prior to discovery
Skeletal remains
Vital Statistics

Estimated age: Late 40s to late 50s, but could have been anywhere from 35 to 65.
Approximate Height and Weight: 6'0"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Forensic examiners say he suffered some discomfort from degeneration in his back and neck.

Possessions: Among other evidence found there were a map of the Flat Tops, numerous packs of Camel cigarettes, a lighter, whistle, bell and some pepper spray.

Other: A pocket-sized, spiral notebook with a green cover with hand-drawn artwork depicting a heart and some figures inside the heart, including what appears to be a cat.

A letter in a recovered page in the notebook starts out with "Dear Lib," possibly a nickname. "I should write in case my situation doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey," the note continues. While increasingly difficult to read, it apparently goes on to ask someone to claim the man's body, and then makes a reference to services and cremation.

Case History

The victim was located September 8, 2004, by bow hunters in a remote area north of Glenwood Springs.
The skeleton revealed no cause of death and the sheriff's office has been assuming it probably was natural.

The man was found in a tent in a wooded, remote location. His trousers had rotted away, but the date of currency found at his campsite indicates he apparently had been there no longer than five years.

The letter leaves open the possibility the man was suicidal, although there is no reason to believe he killed himself. Perhaps he was terminally ill and chose to take his life. The man also could have succumbed to unexpected illness or injury while on an outing in the Flat Tops.

Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
Garfield County sheriffs Office

Source Information:
Glenwood Springs Post Independent
The Doe Network Case File 789UMCO

Link:
http://www.doenetwork.org/

Richard
04-22-2007, 10:09 AM
Bumping case up.

kygal
04-22-2007, 10:49 AM
This one really makes me hope that a forensic anthropologist report was more thoroughly explained. It would be very unlikely to me that a person with "degenerative" issues in his back would be likely to go out that far into the wilderness without realizing that he would be in more pain than anything. He must not have expected to live out this event, because a smoker would take about a month to go through those 20 packs of Camels. (This is my mom's usage -- I am not a smoker.) The packs look like the ones they did around 2000 or '01 when they did "retro". But the pic isn't all that great (and neither is the condition of the pack).

When one looks at a map of the area, you can tell pretty quick that only a rather healthy person would be able to sustain themselves very long up in those mountains. The terrain goes from about 7600 feet to over 10,000 feet in the wilderness area. Thus, he didn't get that far into the area's more scenic routes.

I would think that if he had some sort of serious degenerative disease in his back, that he would have had to have seen a doctor. Especially since it seems like he had some other sort of issue as well that more than likely killed him and not his back. And perhaps, "Lib" knows this and is looking for him to return. I wonder why she has not come forward.

This is also one of those times that I wish Doe or Charley project was a little better about dealing with age or something other than gender. This one seems like there are so many clues to it that it should be solved.

Babyslims
04-22-2007, 04:46 PM
Wow yesterday I was going through the missing and found this guy http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/n/nash_michael.html

and saw this Unidentified you were talking about.. I turned it in.. probably not the same person... But the Missing guy's dissapearance is VERY weird.. Like he left on his own.. but made up an excuse before he went.. I think both stories are so interesting!

Richard
04-22-2007, 08:41 PM
It would seem that this man was at least somewhat experienced in Wilderness hiking and camping. He had a tent and was comfortable in it - brought his ciggarettes and lighter. The whistle may have been part of his survival gear - used for signalling or calling for help.

The bells and pepper spray were probably carried because he was aware of how to survive in bear country. Bells worn on clothing, give bears a warning that you are coming and they have a chance to get out of your way. The pepper spray is used in case they don't.

His writing might indicate that he was planning suicide, or it could also be that he was terminally ill and wanted to die out in the wilderness rather than in a hospital or home. It is also possible that he simply went for his hike and fell ill or had a heart attack while alone. His note could have been about that as well - but probably would have been more specific about his symptoms.

ShurlT
04-22-2007, 09:20 PM
This stricks my heart as so sad. I wonder if he might have been Indian and went off to die by himself. I met a full blooded Cherokee indian man some years ago that said the Federal government came looking for his father because they owned more land than they were supposed to. He told them he didn't know where his father was and I took that to mean his father had gone off to die but as usual, it was one of those questions I should have asked and didn't. I wonder if his camping gear could be traced. Maybe he bought it all at the same time at the same store. I thought he might have charged it but then with the amount of money he had on hand he probably paid cash for it so I dropped that idea. Was he from the local area? I also wonder if he was trying to say, drop his ashes from a glider if Lib choose that option and also if he might have been saying, Eyes or ears are going. So many questions. Would the case be it would cost too much money to find out his race and try to trace all these items?

KarlK
04-22-2007, 11:18 PM
or it could also be that he was terminally ill and wanted to die out in the wilderness rather than in a hospital or home.

That's the impression it left me, the diminishing clarity of his writing would lead to believe he was fading away from an unspecified terminal condition. However his notes could also indicate he was a dying outdoorsman who wanted to go out in the wilderness one last time but overexerted himself in the process, and couldn't make it back. In any case, he knew he was dying but it doesn't feel like suicide, more like resignation in the face of the inevitable.

KarlK
04-22-2007, 11:22 PM
Would the case be it would cost too much money to find out his race and try to trace all these items?

Good question. When LE thinks no foul play is involved, do they spend less resources on ID'ing a body?

websurfer
05-17-2007, 02:25 PM
Wow yesterday I was going through the missing and found this guy http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/n/nash_michael.html

and saw this Unidentified you were talking about.. I turned it in.. probably not the same person... But the Missing guy's dissapearance is VERY weird.. Like he left on his own.. but made up an excuse before he went.. I think both stories are so interesting!


__________________________________________________ ________

I have taken this case as my "Adopted one"
I feel that he would be identified if the Law could find out who the "LIB"
is he addressed his notebook to.
This man had gold dental work including a gold tooth correct?
Surely someone remembers a person gone missing with a gold tooth ha?

I would like it if a forensic artist would do a computer generated or
clay face reconscruction of John Doe #789UMCO
There is also another similar case the man had $6,000.00
with him it is case #551UMOR
this man has not as much gear with him....
somebody once thought he was DB COOPer?

__________________________________________________ ______
About the #789UMCO case:
His map looks as if[ I wish somebody from the area were on here to compare notes with]
ok again...on his notebook are drawings
a Bell + a Cat? below them a cross with Jesus on it? The man drew long hair on the man on the cross?
all this is inside a heart.

Now after doing some awful lousy research yours truely came up with the following info which isn't very helpful..

He could be from a place called MEEKER ,Colorado?
It's near where he was discovered.
He may have stayed at the Sleepy Cat Guest Ranch,,Meeker Colorado
The nearest states to this location are:'
Wyoming [ which can be accessed through the same mountains
Utah [ Again could be gotten to through the same mountains]
Colorado { closer to Denver ] than any other Colorado city
White River National Forest....
Who is Lib?
Lib stands for Elizabeth among other names .
He had a "4 in 1 radio Shack Game" ? date made??2000 ?
He also had a pocket sized battleship game
Now I looked online and found a "radio Shack 4 in 1 Game" at an auction last year
I asked the seller to look on it for me and tell me the date it was made.
She told me it was issued in the year 2000
so i wondered had this man gone missing soon after Christmas?
To have justified buying all the camping equipment without arising suspicion since he wanted to leave?
Also He smoked Camel filterless cigarettes he had a carton of 20 packs with him...
well if everyone reads all the stuff he had with him no way could he have taken it up there ..it says he has a bad back from the description of his remains.
He was 6' probably?
aged 35-65
white male
size 9M Timberland brown & Black hiking boots
Ok so that's all no use listing all his stuff when you can go to the Doe Network and read it yourselves ha ha...
actually they are too numerous to list and take up valuable space with..
Oh he wore wire rimmed glasses too...
you can see all this at the link..

Bluecat
05-17-2007, 05:27 PM
I wonder if he was camping with someone else...the travel-sized battleship game is a 2-person game. And would 1 hiker carry 3 canteens? I don't know the terrain, so I suppose it might be possible depending on the availability of water...

Also, you could read "Lib" to be the person he was hiking with, and the sentence "I should wait in case my situation here doesn't improve" stating his decision to wait for Lib to return with help? I can't imagine writing a note indicating that I wanted cremation, if I went 6 miles out into the wilderness to kill myself. Seems odd. Sounds to me like he got into trouble out there, and tried to leave his last will and testament in that notebook, expecting someone to come looking for him with a reasonable idea where he might be. The glider reference seems to me to be a request to scatter his ashes one of several ways.

I would not take the severe degeneration of back and neck to mean that he was suicidal...apparently there were no prescription bottles found, only an empty Tylenol bottle. So although there may have been bone issues, it sounds like the pain was tolerable. I suspect that the reference to his "situation" was a reference to weather...perhaps he got caught in a cold snap or storm, and did not have the right gear or enough food to survive it?

Marie
05-17-2007, 06:12 PM
I grew up in the area.

Glenwood Springs is right off the interstate (I-76) heading from Denver into Grand Junction an hour further west (this side of Colorado is called "The Western Slope" - the Denver side is called "The Eastern Slope").

Rifle is between Glenwood and Junction - and you have to turn off there and go North to get to Meeker. Craig is even further North of Meeker. If you were to make a circle - Glendwood and Rifle would be on the bottom, Meeker would be on the left and Craig would be up top (really not much to the right, just some very small towns). Flat Top Mountain would be inside that circle - part of the White River Nat. Forest. It's very remote - you'd go there only to hunt or fish, to be left alone, or if you are a serious hiker/camper.

Aside from Grand Junction, none of these areas are heavily populated. And 5 years ago, Junction was just beginning to see a population increase. They aren't typical tourist destinations - people who love the outdoors go to these areas, but otherwise they aren't supported by tourism.

This man had to know the Western Slope - or else he was simply a traveler who decided to head up to the mountains and die alone; he could have bought all the camping supplies right in the area. I'd bet he's either from Colorado, Utah or Wyoming - someone who knows the real west and is comfortable with outdoor sporting - not many people come in from the other surrounding states. If he wanted to die in peace there, then I see no reason why he wouldn't have put up with a lot of back pain to get there. Coming from Wyoming, Meeker would be the most natural and largest place for a rest stop before heading to the Forest - the Sleepy Cat is not in Meeker, it's about 20 miles east, in the valley. It's not an expensive place to stay, but it's not dirt cheap either.

You don't really travel through the same mountains to get to Utah or Wyoming. Junction is a more flat, desert mesa type area leading into a flat area of Utah. Other mountains lead the way into Wyoming - there are routes to avoid the worst of the elevations/twists.

Well I hope that helps you a little with your adopted case. Pretty sad that he wanted his body claimed but we still don't know who he is.

AMF
05-17-2007, 06:58 PM
Marie did a good description of the area. I currently live in Denver, but grew up in Montrose which is farther to the south. Flat Tops Wilderness area is very remote, very rough country, and well known among the hunting crowds. If you have google maps: Type in "Flat Top Wilderness Area, Colorado" then look for a lodge called Trapper's Lake Lodge. Trapper's Lake is on the edge of the wilderness. Glenwood Springs to the south is on Interstate 70, the main East-West Interstate through Colorado. Meeker and Craig are very big with the hunting crowd with record deer and elk coming out of the area.

The story of the Flat tops body is fairly well known around that part of the country. If he was local, I believe that he would have been identified long before now. There is a lot of "drifter" traffic along the Interstate because of the major railroad access. They've always had issues with illegal camping around the Glenwood Canyon area by drifter or homeless travelers. (Used to call them HOBO's in my parent's day.)

What about this: A man who may have known the area from his military days (several bases on the Eastern Slope around Denver and Colorado Springs), may have hunted up in the wilderness areas, may have been hiking and camping in the area, and ends up there in later years. It sounds more like someone who is sick and injuried and unable to get out of their situation and they die alone in the wilderness.

The possibility of the man having been at one of the military bases which means that he might have been hiking or even training up in the mountains at some point is an interesting thought. I know some of the bases do mountain training up in that country, but it's also popular with the crowd wanting to get out of the Denver area (or the military bases) for a long weekend camping and hunting! So maybe he knew the area from back in his military days, and ended up there as a "drifter", became injuried or sick, and just died alone. Hmmm....

I hadn't thought about this story in a long time, glad to see it here.

Marie
05-17-2007, 07:07 PM
Hi AMF - so you grew up in Mo-town, huh? I grew up in Junction/Fruita and my dad's still there.

The military connection is a good idea. This guy seemed to have $, so I don't think he was a hobo, but for sure he's not local.

Hunting season is October & November, if that helps.

websurfer
05-19-2007, 06:44 PM
How did he get all that equipment up there himself?
With a bad back yet?
A man who also was researching the case said that it was very possible and no doubt probable that he rented a donkey to haul all that up there?
Of course the donkey would have had to have anowner and help him I would guess?
The thing is though ..to get to the area to begin his hike
was it by ..bus....car...train....plane?
I did not research the airports or public transportation there.
what do you all think?
If he took public transportation to that spot he could be from very far away ha?
Lots of guys from all over go hunting there.My guess is he used to hunt there at one time?

websurfer
05-19-2007, 06:47 PM
It would seem that this man was at least somewhat experienced in Wilderness hiking and camping. He had a tent and was comfortable in it - brought his ciggarettes and lighter. The whistle may have been part of his survival gear - used for signalling or calling for help.

The bells and pepper spray were probably carried because he was aware of how to survive in bear country. Bells worn on clothing, give bears a warning that you are coming and they have a chance to get out of your way. The pepper spray is used in case they don't.

His writing might indicate that he was planning suicide, or it could also be that he was terminally ill and wanted to die out in the wilderness rather than in a hospital or home. It is also possible that he simply went for his hike and fell ill or had a heart attack while alone. His note could have been about that as well - but probably would have been more specific about his symptoms.


---------------------------------------------------------------

too bad the notebook is in such bad shape?
As I said someplace before....
I was told that a forensic artist is working on getting some type of face put to him that should help a lot crossing fingers and toes ....

Rle7
07-10-2007, 01:28 PM
bump...

AMF
07-10-2007, 05:00 PM
Bumping.... matches another post on body found near Glenwood Springs, Colorado....

Marie
07-10-2007, 05:10 PM
Bumping.... matches another post on body found near Glenwood Springs, Colorado....

It doesn't just match it, it's the same case. :)

Marie
07-10-2007, 05:12 PM
Here's the other thread (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719) on this man.

froggierintexas
10-27-2007, 01:46 AM
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/MPCH/mpdetails.asp?id='M4/1/200410:01:59AM'

Maybe it was this guy. He was headed to Colorado, maybe he was hiking his way home.

SeriouslySearching
10-27-2007, 04:02 AM
This is an interesting case and with everything they have to work with...it really should be solved.

I noticed when I blew up the notebook that it says "Dear ____", but it looks far too long of a name to be just "Lib". Did anyone else notice that? It seems to be at least 5-6 letters or more instead.

This person was well equiped to be out in the wilderness. He was very used to hiking and camping. (I thought it was odd he took foam earplugs tho, so must mean he was a light sleeper.) I think the maps they found were his due to all of the other equipment they found. If he bothered to pack everything else so carefully, including games, notebook, and compass...maps would have been included.

It doesn't sound like a suicide to me at all or one that went into the woods to die. He obviously became incapacitated for some reason and could not make it out. If he were going to end it or know the end was going to come eventually...he wouldn't have gone to such great lengths to bring all that gear. Weather probably became a factor in his demise.

Someone mentioned renting a mule, but they would have records of such activity. It is possible the Lib person went to find help and did not make it out either.

I found it intriguing he would specifically mention a glider. When you are considering ways to dispose of your ashes...this isn't a normal request. It tells me Lib might be quite an adventurer, but obviously...this man didn't care for flying much as he mentioned he wouldn't get sick. (He had a sense of humor.)

If there were a carton (20 packs) of cigs...he probably had already smoked a few packs along the way. For a person to smoke two packs a day is pretty normal if they are a heavy smoker, which I would think this man was. People who are addicted to ciggies ALWAYS make sure they have enough and enough lighters, too. (Nothing worse than having smokes and nothing to light them with!) This would only have been enough for ten more days.

Bluecat
10-27-2007, 09:31 AM
Speaking again about the back pain - my uncle has back issues (I believe a kind of arthritis in the spine), severe enough that his doctors expected him to have surgery by now. He found that, in his case, running actually alleviates the pain. So he makes a point to get his several miles of running in every day and does not have much pain.

It could be similar for our John Doe, or he could simply be the stoic type who will not let a little thing like excruciating pain limit them in any way. I think that if you're a really serious outdoorsman, you have to be somewhat stoic about these things as you're likely to experience discomfort on some level when you're out in the wilderness. The point is that you conquer those obstacles to make your own way.

As far as his belongings go; he definitely was not a minimalist with his gear, but serious hikers who have not bought into the superlight hiking method will often haul up to 100 lbs. on their back.

I agree with those who say that he got into some sort of trouble; perhaps weather or maybe he got sick.

Bluecat
10-27-2007, 10:06 AM
Found a few possibilities -
Riley Norman Hunter - missing August 1992 from Colorado Springs
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200301527W
Joseph William Segur - Missing October 2003 from New Mexico
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200401444S

Meyahna
02-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Made a video for him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UOgHe1IHu4

zinc
08-27-2010, 06:08 PM
The Doe Network: Case File 789UMCO
http://doenetwork.org/cases/789umco.html

Unidentified White Male

The victim was discovered on September 8, 2004 in the Flat Tops, White River National Forest, Garfield County, Colorado
Estimated Date of Death: No longer than 5 years prior to discovery
Skeletal remains

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: Late 40s to late 50s, but could have been anywhere from 35 to 65.
Approximate Height : 6'0"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Forensic examiners say he suffered from severe degeneration in his back and neck and was most likely suffering severe back pain.
Dentals: Available. The man had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth, suggesting the man had money.
Clothing: A pair of size 9M Timberland brown-and-black hiking boots.
Possessions: Located was fragments of sleeping cushion, fragments of blue backpack, a yellow-green plastic poncho, parts of a brown sleeping bag, blue hairbrush, two plastic zipper bags, Six $100 bills, one $10 bill, one $5 bill, five $1 bills , green Eureka dome tent, blue-and-black Jansport backpack, green camping pillow, black belt with clinging long underwear fragments, Slumberjack sleeping bag, empty Tylenol bottle, eight multicolored butane lighters, one magnifying glass, one compass, fingernail clippers, bell, spoon, pepper spray, 20 packages of Camel unfiltered cigarettes, Butane stove with two fuel cans, sweetwater water-filtration kit, pocket-sized Battleship game, round red-and-blue canteen, two green plastic military-style canteens, pair of sunglasses, pair of reading glasses, silver Sharper Image binoculars, "4 in 1" Radio Shack game, two drinking cups, aluminum cooking pot, pair of tweezers, package of foam earplugs, package of razor blades, tent repair kit, pair of blue wool socks with duct tape around the toes, roll of duct tape, two National Geographic trail maps of the Flat Tops.
Other: A pocket-sized, spiral notebook with a green cover with hand-drawn artwork depicting a heart and some figures inside the heart, including what appears to be a cat.
The first page, addressed to "Lib," begins, "I should wait in case my situation here doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey."
"Would like for you to claim the body . . . services or memoreal. Cremation."
The CBI found the next section illegible, although individual words such as "I" and "thought" and "favor" or "flavor" could be made out.
On another page, more text could be discerned, but the CBI analysts said the writer's point is not clear. That sections reads, "Third choice take them up in a glider (I promise not to get sick on you," before becoming illegible. Some common words - "this," "you" and "not" - are identifiable.
On yet another page, the writing apparently goes, "ar on the . . . would you call her...d have it sent...you because I . . . want it to . . . where." Analysts also interpreted a recovered fragment to read, "be . . . er . . . my . . . s are going."

Case History
The victim was located September 8, 2004, by bow hunters in a remote area north of Glenwood Springs. The site is in the drainage of No Name Creek at about 9,700 feet elevation, about 6 miles as the crow flies from Glenwood Springs, but 12 miles by the Transfer Trail out of town.
The skeleton revealed no cause of death and the sheriff's office has been assuming it probably was natural.
The man was found in a tent at a campsite in a wooded, remote location. His trousers had rotted away, but the date of currency found at his campsite indicates he apparently had been there no longer than five years.
The letter leaves open the possibility the man was suicidal, although there is no reason to believe he killed himself. Perhaps he was terminally ill and chose to take his life. The man also could have succumbed to unexpected illness or injury while on an outing in the Flat Tops.
Much about the case is conjecture, including a theory that the man entered the Flat Tops Wilderness at a trailhead on the north and hiked four or five days across elevations of 11,000 feet before setting up his tent on a southern drainage at about 9,700 feet. That theory is supported by two moisture-proof National Geographic trail maps of the Flat Tops with a route drawn across them to the area where the remains were discovered. But it's possible the man picked up the maps someone else had marked and left behind.

Investigators
If you have any information about this case please contact:
Garfield County Sheriff's Office
970-945-1377, Ext. 1025
or
Crime Tips
970-384-3625
You may remain anonymous when submitting information.

Agency Case Number: 04-1656

NCIC Number: Not Entered
Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

zinc
08-27-2010, 06:15 PM
I have added the UID's Doe Network entry in the post preceding this one.


Found a few possibilities -
Riley Norman Hunter - missing August 1992 from Colorado Springs
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200301527W
Joseph William Segur - Missing October 2003 from New Mexico
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200401444S

For reference: Riley Norman Hunter was identified in May 2010 as a body found in Tennessee in 1993.

Joseph William Segur is still missing and had scoliosis that might have explained the UID's back and neck degeneration, although the amount of information in the Doe Network entry makes me believe that we would have been told if the UID had been found to have scoliosis in particular.

Joseph William Segur
NamUs MP #626: https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/626/
Charley Project: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/segur_joseph.html
NCMA: http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmaprofile_all.php?A200401444S

carbuff
08-27-2010, 08:31 PM
I've done some back country hiking, both here and in the west -- this man's equipment strikes me as pretty normal for a few days' hiking. Tent, sleeping bag and pad; water; cooking equipment; safety equipment like compass, maps, whistle, bear spray; and some entertainment. He's not well equipped for cold weather, though, and doesn't appear to be carrying any spare clothing, storm gear, or the like. I also don't see anything in the way of food listed.

Older man, bad back and a heavy cigarette habit, far out in the back country with equipment for good weather -- the signs are all there for somebody likely to get himself into some kind of trouble. The wilderness can be very unforgiving. My first guess would be that he hiked in via the route marked out in the maps -- I see no reason to assume they aren't his -- and ran into an unseasonable snowstorm. Tried to wait it out, ran out of food, eventually died of either exposure or starvation.

A couple of things make me wonder whether somebody was with him: the earplugs, and the two cups. That's not something you usually carry an extra of. Maybe "Lib" or whoever tried to walk out for help. Didn't make it? Didn't come back for whatever reason?

Cymro
08-28-2010, 04:30 AM
Joseph William Segur is still missing and had scoliosis that might have explained the UID's back and neck degeneration, although the amount of information in the Doe Network entry makes me believe that we would have been told if the UID had been found to have scoliosis in particular.

I agree that we probably would have been told about that but apparently scoliosis can be misdiagnosed or undiagnosed, as it may not be noticeable to the patient until later life. If the UID had merely self medicated, calling the UID's condition scoliosis (if that is what it was) might have led family to rule out as curvature of the spine may not immediately have been visible to them.

That said the full post mortem would have identified it, and this could be the basis for an easy rule out - but I wouldn't do so based only on the publicly available information.

That said, I don't think Segur is our guy: he was on food stamps and hadn't touched his bank account. This doesn't fit with a guy who had >$600 in cash. He was wearing shorts with his hiking boots at home - fine in NM, not so much in the Colorado mountains. (Although if he were doing that, crazy as it may be, it would explain why his pants were "rotted" - could rotted pants actually just be frayed shorts?)

Oh and someone posted this on YouTube: sounds very promising, if legitimate.


could the body really been there that long? Someone in GJ dropped my ex off 'in the wilderness' with a backpack spring of 2004.

description very simiular as well as belongings. hee suffered from severe backpain - but he would always pony up to get out in the wilderness. The divorce in spring of 2004 was a surprise - he was distraught and no one knows why - or has seen or heard from him since.

Cymro
08-28-2010, 04:38 AM
Oh and following up the details from the YouTube posting, I'm pretty sure I have

1. A MySpace;
2. A surname;
3. An address;
3. An approximate date of birth indicating that she would have been 52 in early 2004 when her ex was last seen, i.e., the right age to have been in a relationship with the UID.

websurfer
08-28-2010, 07:42 AM
I agree that we probably would have been told about that but apparently scoliosis can be misdiagnosed or undiagnosed, as it may not be noticeable to the patient until later life. If the UID had merely self medicated, calling the UID's condition scoliosis (if that is what it was) might have led family to rule out as curvature of the spine may not immediately have been visible to them.

That said the full post mortem would have identified it, and this could be the basis for an easy rule out - but I wouldn't do so based only on the publicly available information.

That said, I don't think Segur is our guy: he was on food stamps and hadn't touched his bank account. This doesn't fit with a guy who had >$600 in cash. He was wearing shorts with his hiking boots at home - fine in NM, not so much in the Colorado mountains. (Although if he were doing that, crazy as it may be, it would explain why his pants were "rotted" - could rotted pants actually just be frayed shorts?)

Oh and someone posted this on YouTube: sounds very promising, if legitimate.



:woohoo:
So glad a few more people are trying to help ID this fellow besides me .Now if [WE ]could only get a reconstruction done!
We need a face!:dance:

Try and remember[ sometimes] you can dismiss the clothing they were last seen wearing.Some people do not have a exact description and so?
Just try and go by some ,of this, and some of that.
His glasses are pretty common wire frames.
and if you look at their shape?
They are sort of AVIATOR?
opinions please?

carbuff
08-28-2010, 11:15 AM
Oh and following up the details from the YouTube posting, I'm pretty sure I have

1. A MySpace;
2. A surname;
3. An address;
3. An approximate date of birth indicating that she would have been 52 in early 2004 when her ex was last seen, i.e., the right age to have been in a relationship with the UID.

That one does sound promising. They seem to be basing date of death off the currency in his pocket, not anything more concrete.

reasypeasy
08-28-2010, 12:09 PM
Here is a recently posted story about an unknown camper found by hunters some five years or so after his death... It is more recent than the "Mr. Bones" case of Bedford, PA. Maybe this one can be solved.
--------------------------------------
Unidentified White Male
The victim was discovered on September 8, 2004 in the Flat Tops, Garfield County, Colorado
Estimated Date of Death: No longer than 5 years prior to discovery
Skeletal remains
Vital Statistics

Estimated age: Late 40s to late 50s, but could have been anywhere from 35 to 65.
Approximate Height and Weight: 6'0"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Forensic examiners say he suffered some discomfort from degeneration in his back and neck.

Possessions: Among other evidence found there were a map of the Flat Tops, numerous packs of Camel cigarettes, a lighter, whistle, bell and some pepper spray.

Link:
http://www.doenetwork.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercalcaemia

It may be possible his bone calcum had been being forced into his bloodstream due to illness. Happened to my sister when she had cancer, she had two vertebrae bassically collapse. I wonder whether they examined the calcium content of his other bones, or just noted the spinal degeneration?

carbuff
08-28-2010, 12:54 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercalcaemia

It may be possible his bone calcum had been being forced into his bloodstream due to illness. Happened to my sister when she had cancer, she had two vertebrae bassically collapse. I wonder whether they examined the calcium content of his other bones, or just noted the spinal degeneration?

I had wondered about something like that, too. With a heavy smoker, it seemed like something that could happen.

justthinkin
08-30-2010, 07:59 PM
I'd read the info on this UID before, but didn't comment then. Since then, a few things have occurred to me.

For one, I don't believe this guy was the hunter type or at least one gun would've been found in his possessions. The Sharper Image binocs tell me this is a city guy with not a lot of experience as do the Timberland boots which I wouldn't consider serious hiking gear, but then I come from a hunting background, and would choose brands specifically geared to take abuse.

He has a sleeping bag cover that doesn't match the brand of sleeping bag on him. DMH is a tent company in Australia so I'm really wondering if this guy could've been an Australian. One lead would be to find out if any US companies carried DMH Australia products.

That he was camped on a southern exposure also tells me he needed the warmth a southern exposure would offer, unless he picked that spot just by accident.

I am not so sure that whoever Lib was, was a person with whom he'd been hiking and camping. The first line in the letter to Lib puzzles me, "I should" (wait/write) "in case my situation here doesn't improve." Wait for what? I think if he'd needed rescuing at the time of the letter he would have said so, but he hinges this waiting on his situation possibly deteriorating, and if the word is wait. If the word is write, then it does seem to be a letter to convey his last wishes. It seems his mind was wrestling with the fact he might not get out of there alive, but hadn't yet fully wrapped himself around that possibility. Do we know for sure the word is write?

As for him hiking up there with a bad back, my significant other is fond of saying, a person can do most anything so long as he takes enough breaks. So I do believe even with a bad back this guy made it up there, but at what price to his back is the question. He may have just gone as far as he could when his back gave out or he was in so much pain he couldn't go on. Maybe he thought if he went slow enough he could make it back out. Since he was found in his tent, tells me perhaps he was in a lot of pain as does the empty Tylenol bottle.

I don't think he went up there to commit suicide. I think he found himself in a situation that was beyond his capability to cope with physically, and may have frozen to death or died of natural causes or starvation. He was, IMO, a man in over his head, and ill prepared for the conditions he would be facing. The weather could have changed on him, and he may have underestimated the time it would take him to get from point A to point B, and back or wherever he was headed.

Us older people don't like to admit to ourselves we're incapable of doing the things we used to do, but unfortunately, it can be true.

I'm guessing Lib is short for Libby or Elizabeth.

zinc
08-30-2010, 10:22 PM
justthinkin, the more I mull over this guy, the more I'm inclined to agree. I do think, from reading the part of his note where he writes "Third choice take them up in a glider (I promise not to get sick on you," that he was giving instructions on what should be done with his ashes once he was found and cremated.

What I don't understand is why he has pairs of a few things, like the maps, canteens, drinking cups if there weren't originally someone else with him. And if there were someone else with him, presumably when they hiked out (possibly to get help?) they would have alerted the rangers, or (one hopes) filed a missing persons report when the UID never returned. In which cases he should have been identified.

Cymro, I don't know if you are planning to make contact, but I am interested to hear about any outcome from talking with the person who posted on YouTube.

justthinkin
08-30-2010, 10:22 PM
In thinking about the notebook the UID left behind, there was a drawing of a heart, and inside the heart a bell, a cat, and a crucifix. These had to have meant something though the UID may have been a bit delirious when he drew these. It's unknown, but bell and cat together could have this meaning:

"Belling the cat" or "to bell the cat" is an English colloquialism that means to suggest or attempt to perform a difficult or impossible task.[1] The phrase comes from the Aesop's Fable The Mice in Council, in which a group of mice declare that the only way to avoid the dangerous cat is to tie a bell around its neck in order to give warning whenever it is near. One mouse then asks who will perform the dangerous task. The moral of the story, as commonly given, is that it is easy to suggest difficult (or impossible) solutions if the individual giving the solution is not the one who has to implement it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat

Ah, perhaps he meant it was his friend Lib who would have to bell the cat or implement the solution for spreading the UID's ashes or the female he asks Lib to get in touch with or the both of them.

I provided a link to the wiki article on belling the cat, but it isn't coming through with my editing.
So here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat

carbuff
08-30-2010, 10:58 PM
Good points, justhinkin. I hadn't noticed that the sleeping bag cover was a different brand than the bag itself. I had presumed that the brown Slumberjack sleeping bag was this one: http://www.slumberjack.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=14 It would fall in the same category as the Timberland boots and Jansport backpack -- basic stuff, adequate but not what I would
take on a backcountry hike. DMH looks like they might be a cut above -- more comparable to Columbia or LLBean in the US? I can't find any indication they export to the US.

justthinkin
08-30-2010, 11:08 PM
Neither could I, carbuff. I guess we could call them, and ask if they were exporting to the USA in the late 1990s.

The fact that the sleeping bag and cover are two different brands suggests a couple of things. They were bought used or the guy owned more than one sleeping bag which would indicate at least more of an interest in camping and hiking than if all the equip. had been purchased new or heck, he could have borrowed them.

justthinkin
08-30-2010, 11:14 PM
Forgot to add: If that is the correct sleeping bag, it looks too heavy to backpack.

carbuff
08-30-2010, 11:18 PM
Neither could I, carbuff. I guess we could call them, and ask if they were exporting to the USA in the late 1990s.

The fact that the sleeping bag and cover are two different brands suggests a couple of things. They were bought used or the guy owned more than one sleeping bag which would indicate at least more of an interest in camping and hiking than if all the equip. had been purchased new or heck, he could have borrowed them.

Or again an indication somebody else had been in the tent with him, and packed their sleeping bag in the wrong cover by accident? Or grabbed the gear he bought his kids for summer camp?

I'll ask around at some gear stores in my area whether they ever had access to DMH sleeping bags. Sometimes places can get small lots of desirable goods even if they aren't generally exported. We're also close to Canada, which might be an easier trade path.

justthinkin
08-30-2010, 11:24 PM
If the guy was in his fifties, both his parents could've been deceased. Seems he must have been closest to his friend Lib, which could also be shortened version of guy's last name in the event it wasn't a Libby or an Elizabeth. I guess Lib could have been a sibling or sister perhaps. Just doesn't stand to reason though that it was that close of a relationship. A sister would wonder if she hadn't heard from her brother in awhile, so I'm guessing Lib is a friend.


Also, wondering if any progress has been made toward a facial reconstruction. That would sure help.

carbuff
08-30-2010, 11:38 PM
Forgot to add: If that is the correct sleeping bag, it looks too heavy to backpack.

I don't know for sure whether it is the one -- I don't see it in the photos and they don't seem to have any further identification in the description. But it's the only brown one they make. It's a very popular brand around here for the kind of light camping you do for lake fishing, hunting, etc. Yes, it is heavy for backpacking, even if you don't have a bad back.

Wish I knew the dimensions on that backpack. Compared to what seems to be a foot in the top corner, it doesn't look big enough to carry the amount of gear they show.

kemo
08-31-2010, 02:05 AM
This case has interested me for a while. There are plenty of indications that he is middle class and you expect that a middle aged, middle class guy who went off backpacking by himself and never returned would generate a missing person report somewhere.

There are a few things that are a little unusual:
1) The equiptment wasn't cheap; it was solid name brand stuff but not what an experienced back-packer would have. It's more what car campers/day hikers would have.
2) the exact location appears to be down a slop from a ridgetop trail in an area an experienced bgackpaker wouldn't plan as a camp site. I suspect he had some kind of emergency an made his way to the first site he could set up his tent.
3) The route drawn on his map suggested he had made it 35 or so miles over very rough country. He was a easy "all downhill" days' hike out of Greewood Sprs. and he would know it. The only reason he wouldn't be able to try to make it down would be physical imparment of some kind or hypothermia. A storm would have blown over in a day or two and he should have been able to make it out even in heavy snow.
4)He had no medications except one jar of tylenol (which most backpackers would carry). It was empty. This suggests he had no particular medical problem when he went up there, but something was going on that caused him to use up all his pain killer.
5)From what he wrote, he sounds like he expects to die ("end of my journey") but not particularly suicidal. I think he was giving "Lib" instructions on what to do with his ashes (and making a bit of a joke about not getting sick on the airplane)
6)Backpackers usually drive to their destination and leave their car at a trailhead. If they are hiking from one trailhead to another, they have to arrange transportaion between trailheads. There should have been an abandoned car at one of the trailheads. I would think the forest service would be concerned if a car were "abandoned" at a trailhead. There is NO public transportaion in these mountains.
5)Assuming this was a single, old guy who set out on an adventure that was over his head, the big mystery is why no missing person report was filed. Evenidentally this "Lib" was close to him. If there was any estate, life Insurance or Social Security benefits involved, I would think a Missing Persons report would be necessary to get him declared legally dead. There is a possibility that a landlord cleaned out an "abandoned" apartment, an employer wondered why a steady worker just never returned from a vacation and a few people, including a woman named Lib, wondered why a guy they knew suddenly stopped calling. Sad.

RubyRed
08-31-2010, 08:09 AM
Just read this thread this morning. The you tube response does seem like a good lead.

justthinkin
08-31-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't know for sure whether it is the one -- I don't see it in the photos and they don't seem to have any further identification in the description. But it's the only brown one they make. It's a very popular brand around here for the kind of light camping you do for lake fishing, hunting, etc. Yes, it is heavy for backpacking, even if you don't have a bad back.

Wish I knew the dimensions on that backpack. Compared to what seems to be a foot in the top corner, it doesn't look big enough to carry the amount of gear they show.

Exactly. The more I think about it, the more I think something here is not adding up. Bulky sleeping bag, 3 plastic canteens, a regular coffee mug, a too small backpack with no metal bracing for a person's back, a two burner stove with 2 fuel cans: this is all bulky stuff, and not what a backpacker would choose at all. Wish we knew which Eureka tent he had.

I don't think that guy walked in there alone with that set-up.


Had he traveled some distance by snowmobile and abandoned it? By horse? Or like someone said earlier, rented a donkey? And if so wouldn't someone have reported whatever was rented as missing along with the hiker who rented it?

He also has a sleeping bag cover made in Australia, and so far, I haven't found any companies in the US carrying that brand. So how does an Australian made sleeping bag cover wind up in Colorado, found with the remains of someone who is fairly clueless about backpacking?
I could envision an experienced Aussie backpacking the Rockies, but this UID does not appear to be experienced.

He called this a journey. To me that indicates more than just a few days travel, but I suppose he could call it that. Just seems an odd choice of words for someone with equipment that's too heavy to be lugging around any distance.

So we have a guy here with no knives, no whetstone, no fishing hooks, no breathable rain gear, no extra clothes or underwear, no first aid kit, no book, no camera, no food or food wrappers mentioned. He's got $100 bills, $10, $5s and $1s, no $20s or $50s, and no change. It isn't making sense, and I'm wondering if the guy was operating with all his mental faculties intact when he started out.

And about this letter to Lib. It seems to me, if Lib had been in that camp, and gone to get help, that our UID would have started the letter,
Dear Lib, if you don't get back in time....

justthinkin
08-31-2010, 05:03 PM
I know this guy's age is off target, but otherwise, he seems like a possible candidate for this UID. With APD, maybe he stole some of his equipment from other people, taking what he could get. Says he was unemployed, but smoked expensive cigars.
The retinitis pigmentosa seems to fit because one of the sentences our UID wrote was "My ...s are going. Eyes seems like a good choice, and could explain what happened. The guy went blind. Beavers had Marfan's Disease, and one of the complications of that are eye and spine problems.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/beavers_patrick.html

carbuff
08-31-2010, 05:08 PM
Exactly. The more I think about it, the more I think something here is not adding up. Bulky sleeping bag, 3 plastic canteens, a regular coffee mug, a too small backpack with no metal bracing for a person's back, a two burner stove with 2 fuel cans: this is all bulky stuff, and not what a backpacker would choose at all. Wish we knew which Eureka tent he had.

I don't think that guy walked in there alone with that set-up.


Had he traveled some distance by snowmobile and abandoned it? By horse? Or like someone said earlier, rented a donkey? And if so wouldn't someone have reported whatever was rented as missing along with the hiker who rented it?

He also has a sleeping bag cover made in Australia, and so far, I haven't found any companies in the US carrying that brand. So how does an Australian made sleeping bag cover wind up in Colorado, found with the remains of someone who is fairly clueless about backpacking?
I could envision an experienced Aussie backpacking the Rockies, but this UID does not appear to be experienced.

He called this a journey. To me that indicates more than just a few days travel, but I suppose he could call it that. Just seems an odd choice of words for someone with equipment that's too heavy to be lugging around any distance.

So we have a guy here with no knives, no whetstone, no fishing hooks, no breathable rain gear, no extra clothes or underwear, no first aid kit, no book, no camera, no food or food wrappers mentioned. He's got $100 bills, $10, $5s and $1s, no $20s or $50s, and no change. It isn't making sense, and I'm wondering if the guy was operating with all his mental faculties intact when he started out.

And about this letter to Lib. It seems to me, if Lib had been in that camp, and gone to get help, that our UID would have started the letter,
Dear Lib, if you don't get back in time....

I think you're right that Lib wasn't with him at any point.

It's not good backpacking equipment. It's all good sensible car camping stuff, however.

He may have grabbed whatever he had on hand for this trip, not realizing until it was too late that it was too bulky and awkward and that he'd forgotten half his stuff.

One thing about the timeline intrigues me. They say 1999 for the money in his pockets, but what about fall 2001? I don't know about other areas of the US, but in New England, the Twin Towers attack triggered a lot of midlife crises. Happily married women suddenly went into convents. Successful lawyers and computer company execs went "back to the land" or sought out religious retreats. And right after the attack, lots of people were stranded far from home because of flights being grounded, etc.

What if he's a successful businessman in a crisis, stranded in Denver or Colorado Springs or something? Who goes to the nearest REI or Bob Ward or whatever's popular in Colorado, gets what he thinks he needs, and heads out to the mountains to search for his soul?

What makes them think he had already been over those mountains rather than that he was just starting out?

justthinkin
08-31-2010, 05:17 PM
Good points, carbuff. Yes, the equipment he had is what a person would lug in their car to a campground.

I tried to see the soles of his Timberland boots, but I couldn't determine wear. The tops were in poor condition though, and one of the boots had a chunk of rubber? missing from the toe area.

Where can I find a copy of the maps he had? I'm not finding those myself. I've only seen one, and it was too dinky to enlarge with any clarity.

kemo
08-31-2010, 07:56 PM
"mickielou" responded to the you tube and said that it sounded a lot like her ex-husband who disappeared after being dropped of for a wilderness trip in the spring of 2004. I doubt the amount of decomposition could have occured over just that summer and there are no missing person reports for anyone fitting that description at the time. It is possible she is off by a year or two.

"mickielou" has a blog titled "blues fan too" (http://bluesfantoo.blogspot.com/) and now lives in Port San Lucia Fla but lived in Co for many years. I have no idea how to trace her through it. Any ideas?

reasypeasy
08-31-2010, 07:57 PM
A long shot, but I'm posting him because he's Australian (like one of the bits of camping equipment) and he isn't on doenetwork or charleyproject. Just making sure his details are here if a facial reconstruction ever gets done and we start looking at comparisons.

Christopher Colombo
http://www.missingpersons.gov.au/profile.aspx?Id=1345
Personal Details

* Last seen: Thursday, 1 May 1997
* Year of birth: 1963
* Height: 5'11"
* Build: Medium
* Eyes: Hazel
* Hair: Black
* Complexion:
* Gender: Male

Circumstances
Christopher Colombo departed Australia in April 1997 with the intention of travelling to Brazil for a holiday. Christopher contacted his family in the last week of April and once again in early May 1997. As it is out of character for him to go for a long period of time without contacting his family, there are concerns for his safety and welfare



The picture (in case there are any deletions of the link) shows a white guy who appears to me to have dark brown hair. He is dressed in a tux and bowtie and photographed in daylight. Possibly at a wedding?

websurfer
09-01-2010, 06:13 PM
it was made in 1999
so I figure he got it from someone for Christmas?
Also;
his socks...
tried to locate similar ones.
seems they may have been some sort of special made knit ones.
From military/ or some sort of special order/
handmade by someone?
Wool socks....
and the duct tape? everybody knows DUCT TAPE has DNA and fingerprints all over it...
that needs checked as well.Hey?
Is he in NAMUS yet?
Please someone ask that he be in there with all his belongings .

RubyRed
09-03-2010, 09:51 AM
"mickielou" responded to the you tube and said that it sounded a lot like her ex-husband who disappeared after being dropped of for a wilderness trip in the spring of 2004. I doubt the amount of decomposition could have occured over just that summer and there are no missing person reports for anyone fitting that description at the time. It is possible she is off by a year or two.

"mickielou" has a blog titled "blues fan too" (http://bluesfantoo.blogspot.com/) and now lives in Port San Lucia Fla but lived in Co for many years. I have no idea how to trace her through it. Any ideas?

Scroll down to where it says send message ( left side by her profile ). She will get an e-mail telling her that she has a message. You have to be logged into you tube to send one though.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mickielou

Cymro
09-03-2010, 03:50 PM
Okay, I have a name for the missing ex-husband. I have not made contact nor do I think there is any need to do so at this time.

Please therefore do not contact the ex-wife.

Moderators - please let me know if this is inappropriate.


He was born in March 1946 and his name is Xoc L Dlanor (well it's not but I'm sure you can read this backward but no-one is going to be Googling that).

I have also checked SSDI and there is nothing matching those details so he does not appear to have been officially been declared dead or to have died somewhere else in the meantime.

justthinkin
09-03-2010, 04:45 PM
I need to make a couple of corrections from earlier statements by me. First, I said no coinage was found, but that is incorrect. Second, I said the heart drawing contained a bell, a cat, and a crucifix. Scratch the crucifix. I thought I'd read that in the Doenetwork file for this UID, but it was another Websleuther who'd said it was a cross. Looks more like a totem or a poorly executed drawing of an animal of some sort to me. A good close up of the drawing can be found on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UOgHe1IHu4

Looked up No Name Creek Trail, and found it. No Name Creek Trail is described as the Glenwood Springs locals' secret hiking trail. It runs along No Name Creek as would be expected. To get to the trailhead you'd take the first exit north and east of town.

Glenwood Springs is served by rail, Amtrak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness
I'm wondering if this guy wasn't suffering from that, and it killed him? His smoking and his age could have made him a good candidate for a more serious form of altitude sickness.

Has anyone here been in contact with the Glenwood Springs PD? There are some unanswered questions that they could likely clear up, like for instance, extra clothing that might have been in the backpack, other methods of fire starting besides 8 lighters and a magnifying glass. A magnifying glass would be useless without sunshine. I just can't imagine the guy wouldn't have had a magnesium stick or a knife of some kind.

Maybe the guy was used to day hiking, but had little experience in backpacking or else he was suffering mental impairment when he started out.

Mensch
09-03-2010, 05:50 PM
I have talked with Le in the past about this case and the letter and what I think is the letter "R" - not "A". One officer told me he spoke with a linguist who stated the letter is, in his opinion the letter "R".

Instead of reading: " I should WAIT,,,,"
It reads: " I should WRIT....." and the letters become illegible.
Look at all the letters and how the letter R is made throughout the letter. I haven't time to look at it on the video now but will check it out again Sunday.

justthinkin
09-03-2010, 07:07 PM
I agree. Doenetwork.org had it wrong. It's clear the letter is an R in the referenced video.

dsntslp
09-03-2010, 09:33 PM
A lot of his belongings sound like they may have come from a "kit" that might have been sold online. I wonder if they sell these same kits in the area up there? Not the sleeping bag but the small stuff. The ear plugs, magnifying glass and map compass etc are all things that one finds in camping kits online. The ear plugs though...do they come in camping kits or could he have had a gun that just was not there when he was found? Maybe someone else did go up there with him...two cups? Ear plugs might be in a military survival kit? Just thoughts...

angela0040
09-04-2010, 12:14 AM
Another thought for everyone. Cigarette packs usually have a stamp on the bottom with the state where the cigarettes were purchased imprinted on it. The pack in the video wasn't in good shape after being in the elements for so long, but if they still have the packs and they're legible then it could be a clue if they were purchased out of state.

And out of curiosity I looked up "Lib" on wikipedia and the last entry was this-
"Members or supporters of the Liberal Party of Australia, sometimes in a derogatory fashion." I doubt there's any connection but I thought it was interesting since his sleeping bag case has Australia on it.

reasypeasy
09-04-2010, 06:43 AM
Another thought for everyone. Cigarette packs usually have a stamp on the bottom with the state where the cigarettes were purchased imprinted on it. The pack in the video wasn't in good shape after being in the elements for so long, but if they still have the packs and they're legible then it could be a clue if they were purchased out of state.

And out of curiosity I looked up "Lib" on wikipedia and the last entry was this-
"Members or supporters of the Liberal Party of Australia, sometimes in a derogatory fashion." I doubt there's any connection but I thought it was interesting since his sleeping bag case has Australia on it.

I don't really see it so likely that someone would pick up Lib as a nickname based upon party affiliation in Australia.

If the name "Lib" isn't based upon the person's actual name, I'd say the next most probably explanation would be the character Libby in the Life Be in It campaign. Norm was a couch potato, and Libby was Norm's nagging sister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNjEge3Awl8

RubyRed
09-04-2010, 11:55 PM
Possessions:
Located was fragments of sleeping cushion,
fragments of blue backpack,
a yellow-green plastic poncho,
parts of a brown sleeping bag,
blue hairbrush,
two plastic zipper bags,
Six $100 bills, one $10 bill,
one $5 bill,
five $1 bills
, green Eureka dome tent,
blue-and-black Jansport backpack,
green camping pillow,
black belt with clinging long underwear fragments,
Slumberjack sleeping bag,
empty Tylenol bottle,
eight multicolored butane lighters,
one magnifying glass, one compass,
fingernail clippers,
bell,
spoon,
pepper spray,
20 packages of Camel unfiltered cigarettes,
Butane stove with two fuel cans,
sweetwater water-filtration kit,
pocket-sized Battleship game,
round red-and-blue canteen,
two green plastic military-style canteens,
pair of sunglasses,
pair of reading glasses,
silver Sharper Image binoculars,
"4 in 1" Radio Shack game,
two drinking cups,
aluminum cooking pot,
pair of tweezers,
package of foam earplugs,
package of razor blades,
tent repair kit,
pair of blue wool socks with duct tape around the toes,
roll of duct tape,
two National Geographic trail maps of the Flat Tops.
Other: A pocket-sized, spiral notebook

http://doenetwork.org/cases/789umco.html

All these items but no wallet or identification. There is a reason he didn't have those.

justthinkin
09-05-2010, 03:32 PM
He had money on him, but had packed no spare clothing. That makes zero sense as does him not having a knife. No one does that kind of camping without having at least one knife. Multi-purpose tools were available back in 2000.

I really have to wonder if the list of possessions that we're aware of is a complete list. If it is, then he also had no tool to secure tent stakes into the ground.

kemo
09-05-2010, 03:58 PM
Clothing, particularly cotten and wool is often chewed up by small animals and used in their burrows. Any remaining food would have been eaten by animals. I'm surprized that no wallet with identification was found. Perhaps animals had something to do with that but is is a bit of a mystery.

Suicides sometime destroy all id, but that wouldn't be consistant with his letter to "Lib".

carbuff
09-05-2010, 04:34 PM
He had money on him, but had packed no spare clothing. That makes zero sense as does him not having a knife. No one does that kind of camping without having at least one knife. Multi-purpose tools were available back in 2000.

I really have to wonder if the list of possessions that we're aware of is a complete list. If it is, then he also had no tool to secure tent stakes into the ground.

He wouldn't necessarily need one with a dome tent.

angela0040
09-05-2010, 06:40 PM
He also doesn't seem to have a watch or anything to keep time with which seems odd. And I would think that if he had the stove he would have had some canned food of some sort and there would be some evidence of the cans left at least. Although it's possible the cans were taken by animals as kemo said or possibly washed away in the following years of snowfall and runoff if they weren't inside the tent.

kemo
09-05-2010, 07:57 PM
Actually, serious backpackers generally do not carry canned food. It is too heavy. They usually have dehydrated food that comes in foil or plactic wrapping.

carbuff
09-05-2010, 08:17 PM
Actually, serious backpackers generally do not carry canned food. It is too heavy. They usually have dehydrated food that comes in foil or plactic wrapping.

You would think the wrappers would have left some traces even rodents got into it.

angela0040
09-08-2010, 12:21 AM
Couple more thoughts.

1-He's missing some very essential items. With all of the other equipment that he packed it doesn't make sense for him to have not brought these things along. I think he did bring them but lost some of his equipment while he was out there and it was never found.

2. His journal reads "My ...s are going." I know it was suggested earlier that it could be his eyes but what if he meant his legs? This would explain why he was unable to walk out on his own.

tatertot
09-08-2010, 09:16 AM
I think the "pocket-size" Battleship game is actually the electronic version, which lets a single player play against the computer and could be something a lone camper might take with him. There also exists a "travel-size" Battleship with the traditional plastic pegs and ships and does require two players, but it's not small enough to fit in your pocket.

That appears to be the electronic version of the game in the far right of the photo on Doe Network: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/789umco.html

Did the batteries in the Battleship and 4-in-1 game have dates on them? If he put name-brand batteries in the games, they might still have readable expiration dates on them that might give a better idea of when he went missing (i.e. if the batteries expired in 2002 he probably died some time prior since he wouldn't have taken along old batteries that wouldn't work.)

Donjeta
01-25-2011, 05:23 PM
The old links are dead but he's still in Doe Network:
http://doenetwork.org/cases/789umco.html


* The victim was discovered on September 8, 2004 in the Flat Tops, White River National Forest, Garfield County, Colorado
* Estimated Date of Death: No longer than 5 years prior to discovery
* Skeletal remains

Vital Statistics

* Estimated age: Late 40s to late 50s, but could have been anywhere from 35 to 65.
* Approximate Height : 6'0"
* Distinguishing Characteristics: Forensic examiners say he suffered from severe degeneration in his back and neck and was most likely suffering severe back pain.
* Dentals: Available. The man had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth, suggesting the man had money.

He was found in a tent in a remote wooded campsite. He had a lot of camping equipment and apparently was a Camel smoker. I didn't find him in Namus.

carbuff
01-25-2011, 08:39 PM
There's another, much longer thread for this UID: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719&highlight=789umco

MargotKidder
07-05-2011, 07:16 AM
I am curious about a few things. Why would he be carrying butane lighters, as opposed to regular lighters? Maybe a butane lighter would work better, if it were to get wet?

I would assume that if he were experienced, he would have hung a bear bag near his campsite. You would not ever sleep with food in your tent as it would attract wildlife, especially bears, right? Did they look for the existance of a bear bag at all?

And again, if you look at his writing, he goes back and forth between upper and lower case letters, while appearing to try and write in All upper case letters.

LIB is all in upper case--do you think that it would be the initials L.I.B. as opposed to the word Lib. I have friends who have nicknames based upon what their nicknames spell, example Rad, Robert Alex Duchess, it's made up. Maybe it is not a woman at all, maybe a guy named Louis?

Maybe he had prescription pain meds in his tylenol bottle that would have helped manage the pain of a degenerative back disorder, or perhaps he used his butane lighters to smoke weed for pain management?

I am going to attach the first page of the letter here.

Thanks.

vspin
08-22-2011, 06:05 PM
I've considered that this man could be a fugitive. Most people carry their cash in a wallet with their ID, unless maybe the don't want to be identified. This man could be Robert William Fisher.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/robert-william-fisher/view
Robert William Fisher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_William_Fisher)


Known similarities between the two men:

-Age
-6' in height
-Outdoorsman, hunter
-Gold crown
-Back injury
-Tobacco


Some questionables:

-On the Doe Network it is written "The man had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth," could that mean that he has only 1 noticeable (smile) crown and many gold fillings?
-The fugitive chews tobacco, while the unidentified smokes tobacco.
-The unidentified mentions a "Lib". Could "Lib" be someone helping him avoid capture?
-Where's the fugitives weapons? Could he have run out of ammunition (hunting) and ditched them?


This may be a stretch, but I wanted to say it first in case it does turn out to be him. :)

tatertot
08-23-2011, 07:36 AM
That is a very intriguing potential match, vspin. I remember the AMW episode about the murders Fisher is wanted for; how sad for the children's grandfather who was interviewed in the segment. Fisher's house burnt to the ground so any camping gear he might have taken would have been assumed to be lost to the flames and nobody would have noticed it was missing from the house.

The back injury is especially compelling. I'm sure there are plenty of people passionate enough about hiking (or any other hobby) to persevere even if they develop back problems that make hiking and camping less enjoyable, but overall there are a lot of similarities between this UID and wanted man.

Carolyn H.
08-23-2011, 09:36 AM
The thought that this UID might be Fisher (or even another fugitive) makes a lot of sense to me and explains a couple of things, including the 20 packs of cigarettes. A fugitive might simply find an out of the way spot to camp and hide out for a while. So he's got the games to entertain himself and the cigarettes to last for a while. A weekend hiker wouldn't need 20 packs of cigarettes. I've backpacked for years and never took along games of any kind--too tired at the end of the day. But a camper? someone who's staying in one place? Yes, the games then make sense. Also, the money in the plastic bags makes more sense that way (and the amount). I would never take that much money on a backpacking trip or a camping trip.

And the "Lib" that the notes seem to be addressed to, might well be the person who was helping him.

vspin
08-24-2011, 04:19 AM
Very great points!

It was a few years ago I first looked at this case (the unidentified) and I always find myself coming back thinking of new ideas. I discover the Radio Shack "4 in 1" game manual was last written September 18, 2000, but there is no telling if this is a revision. If not, this could push the earliest time of death ahead.

One thing I noticed is that I can no longer find all the larger photos from the news articles. They're gone. The Doe Network has some, but they're small with less detail. :(

JupiterAmmon
11-01-2013, 12:54 AM
bump for this John Doe.

alllads
11-28-2013, 03:11 PM
Bumping for John Doe. I wonder if he originally did have some form of ID with him, but it got taken off by wildlife or something. Otherwise, how else did he want to be identified? He didn't seem to be trying to conceal his identity, and it looks like he meant for "Lib" to get his note. How, if he was not identifiable?

tatertot
11-29-2013, 11:47 AM
Vspin, did you submit the possible match with Fisher? Reading the articles linked from Fisher's Wikipedia page, I saw something I'd missed before:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special22/articles/0404fisher04.html


And although evidence exists that Fisher may have been plotting an escape to the woods by buying a new water purifier the night before the murders...

The UID was found with a "sweetwater water-filtration kit."

killarney rose
11-29-2013, 12:27 PM
Just throwing this in. I've had multiple tests and X-rays on my back. I have scoliosis in my upper back and a couple degenerative discs in my lower back. But it does not prevent me from doing anything I want to do. It looks bad enough for the drs I have seen to recommend surgery. I have occaisional back pain for which I will take Tylenol or a muscle relaxer. But it is no where near as bad as it looks on X-ray. Perhaps this is the case with this Doe.

websurfer
11-30-2013, 12:44 PM
Vspin, did you submit the possible match with Fisher? Reading the articles linked from Fisher's Wikipedia page, I saw something I'd missed before:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special22/articles/0404fisher04.html



The UID was found with a "sweetwater water-filtration kit."

:twocents:
does seem like it could be a match?:seeya:

websurfer
11-30-2013, 12:47 PM
I need to make a couple of corrections from earlier statements by me. First, I said no coinage was found, but that is incorrect. Second, I said the heart drawing contained a bell, a cat, and a crucifix. Scratch the crucifix. I thought I'd read that in the Doenetwork file for this UID, but it was another Websleuther who'd said it was a cross. Looks more like a totem or a poorly executed drawing of an animal of some sort to me. A good close up of the drawing can be found on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UOgHe1IHu4

Looked up No Name Creek Trail, and found it. No Name Creek Trail is described as the Glenwood Springs locals' secret hiking trail. It runs along No Name Creek as would be expected. To get to the trailhead you'd take the first exit north and east of town.

Glenwood Springs is served by rail, Amtrak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness
I'm wondering if this guy wasn't suffering from that, and it killed him? His smoking and his age could have made him a good candidate for a more serious form of altitude sickness.

Has anyone here been in contact with the Glenwood Springs PD? There are some unanswered questions that they could likely clear up, like for instance, extra clothing that might have been in the backpack, other methods of fire starting besides 8 lighters and a magnifying glass. A magnifying glass would be useless without sunshine. I just can't imagine the guy wouldn't have had a magnesium stick or a knife of some kind.

Maybe the guy was used to day hiking, but had little experience in backpacking or else he was suffering mental impairment when he started out.


Decipher....
heart
cat
cross

bell
etc.... your ideas?what does it mean as a unit? Names? places both?


please

websurfer
11-30-2013, 12:49 PM
somebody needs to get a computer generated skull face from the skull..

tatertot
12-21-2013, 07:44 AM
It appears Robert Fisher is a ruleout for this UID. I emailed the Garfield County Sheriff's office on Dec. 12 asking if this possible match had been compared, and received this reply from the Investigations Commander (I'm not sure if it's okay to post his name):


Thank you for your inquiry. I am not at liberty to provide you with details but I will tell you that this lead has been followed up on and exhausted. Thank you for your information.


Vspin, I hope you don't mind that I asked about the possible match you suggested. I was really hoping this WAS a match. Considering how heinous Fisher's crimes were, it would have been a fitting end if he'd died alone in the woods writing to someone who never came back for him. Now we're back with the likelihood that this is an innocent camper who succumbed to injuries, the elements or suicide and was never found by whoever he spent his last days writing to.

It's odd that the UID had two plastic zipper bags and yet he didn't seal the notepad in them to preserve it in case he wasn't found very soon after his death. Was he expecting "Lib" to arrive at the campsite on a specific date, but he wasn't sure he'd make it to that day? Or was he not lucid enough in his final moments to think to seal up the notebook?

tatertot
04-17-2014, 11:12 AM
There's no evidence that this UID committed any crime, but his statistics are similar to another man wanted for the same type of crime as Fisher.

William Bradford Bishop Jr., wanted since 1976 for murdering his family, was recently added to the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list:

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/well-known-murder-suspect-from-bethesda-added-to-fbis-most-wanted-list/2014/04/10/ce2eb390-c0a5-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html

http://www.kjrh.com/news/national/fbi-seeks-family-annihilator-in-1976-murders-suspect-placed-on-10-most-wanted-list

* Bishop was 6 feet 1 inch -- UID was 6 feet 0 inches
* Bishop had a six-inch vertical surgical scar on his lower back -- UID "most likely suffering severe back pain"
* Bishop would have been 63 in 1999 -- the UID was "anywhere from 35 to 65"
* Bishop was an avid camper and hiker -- the UID evidently was also
* Bishop "might keep a journal" -- the UID wrote in a notebook
* Bishop had a Yale education -- the UID wrote in what I'd consider an eloquent style (though he misspelled "memorial")

An extreme long shot, but Bishop is thought to have two items in his possession he'd never part with: his father's Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver and his Yale cignet ring. A portion of the UID's notebook read: "ar on the . . . would you call her...d have it sent...you because I . . . want it to . . . where."

Maybe this was a request to "Lib" to retrieve his favorite belongings? "WITH MY GRADUATION YEar on the ring...would you call her ANd have it sent TO you because I DON'T want it to BE LOST ANYwhere."

tatertot
04-17-2014, 01:19 PM
In the image below, the UID's notebook is on the left and Bishop's passport is on the right. Both printing samples are upper-case with lower-case "i's" and "p's" thrown in the mix.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/Rollerwings/handwriting_zps05dfdae1.jpg

The family passport photo is image #44 on this page: http://www.nbcwashington.com/investigations/series/brad-bishop/Inside-the-Evidence-Room-in-the-Hunt-for-William-Bradford-Bishop-254602021.html

I'm not sure if that is Bishop's printing, though -- would this be something he'd write in his own passport or would an official have written it for him?

Bishop's dental records show many fillings, and Doe Network states the UID "had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth, suggesting the man had money."

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/april/william-bradford-bishop-added-to-fbi-top-ten-list/photo-gallery-dental-records

annemc2
04-17-2014, 04:16 PM
Interesting. Both writing samples use all caps except for "i" and "p."

carbuff
04-18-2014, 08:27 PM
Bishop is an intriguing possibility. He certainly fits a lot of the known parameters.

He's on Doenet as well: http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase78.html

carbuff
04-18-2014, 08:28 PM
somebody needs to get a computer generated skull face from the skull..

Is there a photo of the skull available somewhere?

CarlK90245
04-18-2014, 09:38 PM
Is there a photo of the skull available somewhere?

No, there isn't AFAIK.

Backwoods
04-19-2014, 03:04 AM
Bishop is an intriguing possibility. He certainly fits a lot of the known parameters.

He's on Doenet as well: http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase78.html


I wonder if he has any (surviving) Bishop family members whose initials would be LIB?

carbuff
04-19-2014, 09:29 AM
There's another, much longer thread for this UID: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719&highlight=789umco

Carl, do you have any idea where this thread might have disappeared to? The link gives an error and search doesn't find it either. We had a bunch of research in there about the camping equipment, the maps and the routes he might have followed, etc. I hope it's not lost.

websurfer
04-19-2014, 12:09 PM
Is there a photo of the skull available somewhere?

:seeya:
when this case was first out.I did copy the picture from the website
in the pic was the skull.
That was a while ago.
I will look to see if I still have the pics?
if not/
How would a person go about requesting the pictures from all sides of the skull from the sheriff there?
they now have those 3 d printers I wonder if a picture could be turned into a skull replica of this man?
does it cost anything to have the sheriff get pictures or is it public knowledge now? Public records?
I really want to see a skull of this subject...:seeya:

websurfer
04-19-2014, 12:12 PM
Carl, do you have any idea where this thread might have disappeared to? The link gives an error and search doesn't find it either. We had a bunch of research in there about the camping equipment, the maps and the routes he might have followed, etc. I hope it's not lost.

:please:

I really want to see a resolution to this case
because he did leave a notebook and money and instructions to a "LIB"
who is she/he anyway and where is the person?:banghead:

carbuff
04-20-2014, 03:47 PM
Bishop has his own thread here MD MD - Bradford Bishop killed his family, dumped them 300 miles away - March 1976 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36762)

It's mentioned that he had a female companion when he disposed of the bodies. I wonder if that's Lib?

CarlK90245
04-20-2014, 04:44 PM
Carl, do you have any idea where this thread might have disappeared to? The link gives an error and search doesn't find it either. We had a bunch of research in there about the camping equipment, the maps and the routes he might have followed, etc. I hope it's not lost.

This thread is the product of two merged threads. I am not aware of any third thread on this John Doe. And there no deleted posts other than a couple of "bump to merge" posts that Cubby entered when merging the two threads.

carbuff
04-20-2014, 05:07 PM
This thread is the product of two merged threads. I am not aware of any third thread on this John Doe. And there no deleted posts other than a couple of "bump to merge" posts that Cubby entered when merging the two threads.

Weird. I know the other thread was there when I posted the pointer, and the contents aren't in this thread. I guess I must have been imagining things...

tatertot
05-05-2014, 12:40 PM
What's really unusual is what's omitted from the note.


Dear Lib
I should write in case my situation here doesn't improve. This may be the end of my journey. I would like for you to claim the body. No services or memoreal. Cremation, and

The writer was so certain his death was impending that he left instructions for the dispersal of his remains, yet he never wrote what was about to kill him. Even if he had an overriding health problem that was more certain than anything else to end his life, you'd think he would have written that he was having heart attack symptoms, for example, and not leave Lib forever wondering what had happened. There may be several unreadable pages following this one in the diary, but he should have told Lib what was happening right on the first page, and instead he segued right into what should be done with his remains.

So, did Lib already know he was dying or planned to kill himself, and the note was only a vaguely written farewell, even an afterthought? Had they discussed all of this beforehand? The request for no services or memorial sounds more like a reminder of a past conversation than a first-time request, IMHO. If it was the first time he'd brought it up, he might have at least given a reason why he didn't want any type of funeral. I'm not sure if it's significant that he didn't elaborate on the "cremation," stating where or how he wanted it done.

I wonder how many unreadable pages might have been in the notebook between the first page and the page on which he joked about taking the ashes up in a glider, because if there weren't any then it's strange that he wrote so much about dispersing his ashes but didn't write what he wanted Lib to tell any relatives or friends about his death or that he loved them.

Maybe this guy was just "all business" and preoccupied with practical matters like having Lib call the mystery woman and have something sent to her, but the letter is shockingly unsentimental. Here's where I apologize in advance if this man is someday identified and he had never done anything wrong, but I'm suspicious he might have been a fugitive for years and, knowing he was growing incurably ill, did not want to be identified after his death.

It's an admittedly strange theory, but I think he left Lib with a duplicate copy of those marked maps showing the route he had taken, just in case he didn't make it all the way to the campsite, and he left her with instructions to wait a long time, then retrieve his skeletal remains and clandestinely cremate and disperse them. If this was the case, then both already knew that a coroner couldn't take his remains, nor could he have a funeral that might call into question who he really was. He might have not had many personal connections in his life aside from Lib, either.

But, if this was the case, he probably didn't want her to wait a full five years, so why didn't she come back for him? Did something happen to her in the interim that left her physically unable to make the hike? Was she fearful of being caught transporting his remains and she decided to let him remain in the wilderness?

He seemed certain it would be Lib and not anyone else who would find him, too, or the note would have been addressed to "whoever finds this campsite" and contain the man's name and instructions on how to contact Lib to tell her he had died.

Yet I don't think Lib was camping with him because that would make "I would like for you to claim the body" a strange request. If she was camping with him and had left for a short time, he would have likely written "return to civilization and then have my body brought back by a recovery team" or something similar.

Unrelated, but it would be nice to know what state's tax stamps were on the Camel cigarettes, assuming the stamps were legible.

kemo
05-05-2014, 09:25 PM
This is a sad and perplexing case. If he was a fugitive from justice who didn't want his real identity know, he would have just kept his "new" identity and whatever documents he used if proof of identity was needed. Since he appears to expect his loved ones to be notified of his death, I don't think he was deliberately concealing his identity. I suspect his wallet was carried away by animals.

Good point about the tax stamp. That would narrow the search a little. He did seem to be carrying a lot of smokes and lighters but otherwise rather meager backpacking equipment. He was not in a normal backpackers camping area. I suspect this was an emergency bivouac; probably a result of a health crisis. He wasn't that far from the trailhead. I wonder if he jettisoned some of his food and equipment along the trail in order to lighten his load.

I suspect he was either never reported missing or a missing person report was never taken. The particular trail he was on is a fairly well know route that is mentioned on several "backpacking publications and numerous websites and blogs. It is hardly a "locals only" type trail. It would be a reasonable route that anyone in the world who wanted to "hike in the Rockies" might choose. He could be from anywhere. I'm not so sure what would happen if someone I knew went backpacking and never returned if I didn't know where they went backpacking. It would be pretty vague. I suspect this is what happened.

reasypeasy
05-06-2014, 08:48 AM
The timeframe for this guy is about 10 years wrong for it to be a simple story how he got there, but since the area is one he was obsessed with I'd very much like to see him ruled out in some active way.

Keith R Reinhard

http://doenetwork.org/cases/3835dmco.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/reinhard_keith.html

reasypeasy
05-07-2014, 01:37 AM
I'm just thinking... I couldn't find the Doe on Namus. Is he there? Any chance of getting him there if he isn't?

astridxx
05-07-2014, 12:23 PM
Absolutely fascinating thread.

ForeverAmber806
05-07-2014, 06:15 PM
Just a quick thought regarding the mixed matched sleeping bag and sleeping bag cover...it could have been purchased from a garage sale or thrift store. I used to work in a thrift store and in fact was responsible for the "linens". I saw this type of mixed match stuff all the time!!!

jenstar
05-07-2014, 06:45 PM
https://www.colorado.gov/apps/coldcase/casedetail.html?id=256003

same information, but the pics are easier to see.
This "black logo'd bag" is actually a Surf Board Cover. The "Dartt" is a style of surfboard, and "extra long" refers to 6 1/2 feet in length.. The brand is out of Australia. (confirmed by my friend Gordon, who lives in Australia..) Which quickly leads me to believe that he may or may not be FROM Australia..or had traveled there. Gordz couldn't find the "brand" itself, but said that Most Surf shops are Mom&Pop types that build boards out of their backyards and sell them down on the beach to tourists, so they're not "big time brands".

Finding that out, actually brings me closer in a way to finding out who that guy is, because we know that he loves ALL outdoors activities. And I've never seen anyone go Surfing alone. At least they shouldn't..
JMHO

jenstar
05-07-2014, 06:50 PM
I'm just thinking... I couldn't find the Doe on Namus. Is he there? Any chance of getting him there if he isn't?

Colorado is a bit behind the times..I've looked up a few "missing" people from their website and they're Nowhere in NaMus. It's like we're "on our own" here. Maybe we can send a few e-mails and see if they'll enter that information? MOO

jenstar
05-07-2014, 10:04 PM
I'm on my Tablet right now and haven't figured out the copy paste with other threads yet. But someone theorized that this could be an Alabama man by the name of Willie Leon Brasher. If this hasn't been brought here yet, would someone please link it for comparison? Tia

alllads
05-08-2014, 03:47 AM
I'm on my Tablet right now and haven't figured out the copy paste with other threads yet. But someone theorized that this could be an Alabama man by the name of Willie Leon Brasher. If this hasn't been brought here yet, would someone please link it for comparison? Tia

I don't think Willie Leon Brasher is missing anymore, I will email Charley Project to take him down. Jefferson County have taken him down as missing, he was arrested in Wisconsin in 2001, and according to Wisconsin Courts the case record has an address for him updated in 2008.

jenstar
05-08-2014, 12:02 PM
I don't think Willie Leon Brasher is missing anymore, I will email Charley Project to take him down. Jefferson County have taken him down as missing, he was arrested in Wisconsin in 2001, and according to Wisconsin Courts the case record has an address for him updated in 2008.

Oh ok..cool beans.

astridxx
05-08-2014, 02:41 PM
http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?t=2205&page=2

another forum thread about flat top doe

jenstar
05-09-2014, 02:04 PM
http://www.postindependent.com/article/20060420/VALLEYNEWS/104200035
Here's an article that gives you a close up of the notebook when you click the picture. I'm going to see if I can "blow it up" a bit more so I can see it clearly. Maybe I can pull something from it.
So far, I see that he writes his letters in all capitals, almost a "block-style". My dad used to do this too. He said that they taught people in the Military to do this if they had sloppy handwriting. It could also be a coincidence. But it may be safe to assume this person was a veteran at some time, too. JMO

astridxx
05-09-2014, 02:11 PM
http://www.postindependent.com/article/20060420/VALLEYNEWS/104200035
My dad used to do this too. He said that they taught people in the Military to do this if they had sloppy handwriting. It could also be a coincidence. But it may be safe to assume this person was a veteran at some time, too. JMO

I'd be willing to bet, simply based on preparedness.

My father, as well, was in the Navy and writes in block letters. I picked up the habit from him, but have never been in the military.

Also, where it is assumed to say "WRITE" -- that word doesn't fully look like "write," not that that yields any clues or anything. Just stating an opinion :)

jenstar
05-09-2014, 02:28 PM
I'd be willing to bet, simply based on preparedness.

My father, as well, was in the Navy and writes in block letters. I picked up the habit from him, but have never been in the military.

Also, where it is assumed to say "WRITE" -- that word doesn't fully look like "write," not that that yields any clues or anything. Just stating an opinion :)

Well, this is simply heart-wrenching..to say the least. Deciphering this note seriously shows he was fading in and out of consciousness. His demeanor and outlook changes with every line that was written. These ARE this Man's last dying words. Sad. JMHO

astridxx
05-09-2014, 02:29 PM
Someone previously stated there is technology out there that can pick up words even if erased... I wonder why they haven't employed that yet. I guess UID's are a waste of money to them (that's the only reason I can think of).

jenstar
05-09-2014, 02:34 PM
http://www.protectcoloradosfuture.org/need-identification-any-real-psychics-want-to-help-here/
List of all items found in this article.
Another clue: Two green military canteens. (?) hmm? MOO

jenstar
05-09-2014, 02:38 PM
Someone previously stated there is technology out there that can pick up words even if erased... I wonder why they haven't employed that yet. I guess UID's are a waste of money to them (that's the only reason I can think of).

I think that all the computer does is connect the dots. I'm debating on whether or not to do that..wondering if taking the original image and overlaying it with my own interpretation would mess something up. Or just posting what my mind interprets and see what others think for themselves...debating. Moo

astridxx
05-09-2014, 02:39 PM
Aw man is the Karl who provided his psychic answer about the guy OUR Karl? Or no, our Karl is Carl with a C..

jenstar
05-09-2014, 02:45 PM
Aw man is the Karl who provided his psychic answer about the guy OUR Karl? Or no, our Karl is Carl with a C..

Bah! Naaah. Our Carl is a practical person..very gifted and an artist. But I wouldn't describe him as "touched" :floorlaugh:

astridxx
05-09-2014, 08:15 PM
One of my fave authors (Blake Crouch) lives in Durango. This story reminds me so much of something I would read in one of his books. I passed on the link you posted about the psychic Jen. Maybe he can help!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jenstar
05-10-2014, 12:26 PM
I've decided that I'm going to post the letter and see what you guys think. I poured over it for a few hours. First I traced the original handwriting to "connect the dots to the letters". I then read the note again to see "what made sense". The RED marks indicate my notes and also "fill in" where there weren't any letters at all, also if you've seen the blown up version of the note or saved it to your computer you can see that the headline also shows up more letters than just "Lib." I wish I could do more but this is the best I could come up with. :)

http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/jenstar55/media/libnote2_zps805825bb.jpg.html?filters[user]=134831877&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

Both images are at the same location.

jenstar
05-10-2014, 02:07 PM
You know, I've given this a lot of thought, and wondered if they ever found any hair along with the decedent? Also, I wonder if the whole cateloge of items with him were ever shared with us? Maybe it was dismissed but I wonder if he had a "walking stick"..here's a profile I've found with doenetwork. A possible? (I thought it made him outdoorsey because there was a deer steak waiting for him..) Maybe he'd had hunting experience? He also had clothes out on the line. So maybe he was living "off the grid?" JMHO
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3664dmia.html

astridxx
05-10-2014, 02:36 PM
I've decided that I'm going to post the letter and see what you guys think. I poured over it for a few hours. First I traced the original handwriting to "connect the dots to the letters". I then read the note again to see "what made sense". The RED marks indicate my notes and also "fill in" where there weren't any letters at all, also if you've seen the blown up version of the note or saved it to your computer you can see that the headline also shows up more letters than just "Lib." I wish I could do more but this is the best I could come up with. :)

http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/jenstar55/media/libnote2_zps805825bb.jpg.html?filters[user]=134831877&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

Both images are at the same location.


Excellent work Jen!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

carbuff
05-10-2014, 05:17 PM
You know, I've given this a lot of thought, and wondered if they ever found any hair along with the decedent? Also, I wonder if the whole cateloge of items with him were ever shared with us? Maybe it was dismissed but I wonder if he had a "walking stick"..here's a profile I've found with doenetwork. A possible? (I thought it made him outdoorsey because there was a deer steak waiting for him..) Maybe he'd had hunting experience? He also had clothes out on the line. So maybe he was living "off the grid?" JMHO
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3664dmia.html

OT: Damn. If they didn't have that photo as part of this guy's profile, I'd say it was my brother at that age. Holy crow. My brother is alive and well, btw. But geez. It really looks just like him.

On topic: Your logic is good, but where Stookesbury didn't have a car, that makes it very unlikely he could get to the mountains of Colorado.

jenstar
05-10-2014, 07:17 PM
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13451/0/
Another case. Skilled outdoorsman "took off" never to be seen again. There's no indication of a Lib or Libbey there, but that doesn't mean that he didn't "meet" one. If he decided to "live of the land" for a year or so, there's no reason why he wouldn't travel. The next article states that one day he wanted to do just that..but in Alaska. Maybe his travels didn't take him that far?
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FAMILY,+FRIENDS+HOLD+OUT+HOPE+FOR+MISSING+DEPUTY.-a083615328

Sleuthster
05-10-2014, 08:16 PM
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13451/0/
Another case. Skilled outdoorsman "took off" never to be seen again. There's no indication of a Lib or Libbey there, but that doesn't mean that he didn't "meet" one. If he decided to "live of the land" for a year or so, there's no reason why he wouldn't travel. The next article states that one day he wanted to do just that..but in Alaska. Maybe his travels didn't take him that far?
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FAMILY,+FRIENDS+HOLD+OUT+HOPE+FOR+MISSING+DEPUTY.-a083615328

He disappeared in June 1998 and the doe had money printed in 1999. I'm not saying it's impossible but he would have had to travel far and received money at least 6 months after he disappeared.

zwiebel
05-10-2014, 08:39 PM
I don't think he's asking LIB to claim the body, he's asking Jim/Tim to do so (more likely Tim, in my opinion). And I don't think LIB is LIB - I think it says Liberty.

The page looks as though it has been retouched in places, at a later date. I hope not, because that would render it pretty useless. Maybe it is just chemical reactions to the substances on the notebook tough.

Sleuthster
05-10-2014, 08:49 PM
:)

Greetings friends....I am new here....
my request is for anyone named "LIB" who may know a man who went missing between 1999-2004
He had several items with him including a green spiral 4"x5" notebook.
on the cover he drew a heart inside the heart is a cat+ a bell+a cross

rather than try and explain this to you please look at the two colorado
newspaper articles about it.
Post Independent from April 20,2006 article by: Dennis webb
also you will find an article in the Rocky Mountain News
from may6,2006
local section written by Joe Garner
There is alist of items with him including these:
reading[wire rimmed glasses]
sunglasses
a Sweetwater-water-filtration kit
20[once a carton?] Camel cigarettes packs
8-multi colored butane lighters
pocket sized Battleship game
"4 in 1" Radio Shack Game
Silver[Sharper Image] binoculars
a Bell?[could be cat bell?
was wearing a black belt[don't know type pf buckle]
blue backpack
yellow+green plastic poncho
brown sleeping bag
blue hairbrush
six $100.00
one$10.00
one$5.00
five$1.00
=620.00.........which in his note he asks "LIB" to use to creamate his remains...in the note in the 4"x5" spiral notebook

one pair of SIZE 9 M Timberland hiking boots brown& black[shown in gallery at the newspaper site]

Green Eureka dome tent

Blue & Black Jansport backpack

Green camping pillow


plus other items....which can be seen at the Garfield County police department

If you have any information,call Garfield County Sheriff's Office,970-945-1377
Ext.1025

To call anonymously,call CrimeTips ,970-384-3625

or email at
crimetips@garfield-county.com
I am hoping the word can be passed around and that this man gets a proper
burial thanks!

The thing that stands out to me is this list and specifically the travel size battleship and the Radio Shack 4 in 1 game. I can't see a man this age traveling around with these items unless he planned on disappearing for a long time. First thing that came to mind is that this person isn't "missing" it's possible he was wanted and hiding out as he tried to pass the time with these electronic games.It's also possible that he was planning to end his life if he where to be discovered before LE arrested him. The money makes me consider this possibility even more.

Sleuthster
05-10-2014, 09:14 PM
I've considered that this man could be a fugitive. Most people carry their cash in a wallet with their ID, unless maybe the don't want to be identified. This man could be Robert William Fisher.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/robert-william-fisher/view
Robert William Fisher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_William_Fisher)


Known similarities between the two men:

-Age
-6' in height
-Outdoorsman, hunter
-Gold crown
-Back injury
-Tobacco


Some questionables:

-On the Doe Network it is written "The man had extensive dental work, including gold work, crowns, bridges and fillings in almost all his teeth," could that mean that he has only 1 noticeable (smile) crown and many gold fillings?
-The fugitive chews tobacco, while the unidentified smokes tobacco.
-The unidentified mentions a "Lib". Could "Lib" be someone helping him avoid capture?
-Where's the fugitives weapons? Could he have run out of ammunition (hunting) and ditched them?


This may be a stretch, but I wanted to say it first in case it does turn out to be him. :)

This one is a possibility IMO

jenstar
05-10-2014, 09:20 PM
He disappeared in June 1998 and the doe had money printed in 1999. I'm not saying it's impossible but he would have had to travel far and received money at least 6 months after he disappeared.

It's possible that he cleared out a checking/bank account before he left home, and only went into town when he needed something. JMO

Sleuthster
05-10-2014, 09:30 PM
It's possible that he cleared out a checking/bank account before he left home, and only went into town when he needed something. JMO

Yes, but some of the money was dated a year after he left so it would not have been printed for him to do that in 1998. So he would have had to received some of that money at least a year after he left. I'm not saying it's not possible but it doesn't seem as likely.

jenstar
05-12-2014, 02:46 PM
Okay. About the 4 in 1 Radio-Shack Game. It states on an Owners Manual that it was released September of 2000 (which someone also pointed out in an earlier post). This was the actual Copywrite date of the game as seen on page 2 at the bottom. http://support.radioshack.com/support_games/doc65/65707.pdf

I think it's safe to assume that the Money found dated 1999 was a "base" of LE's finding because they didn't have that information. IMHO, This guy was out there and alive after 1999.

jenstar
05-12-2014, 03:01 PM
What else can we _safely_ assume?
*Possibility to a strong Military background (canteens, supplies)..Army?
*Missing date of: Sept 2000 maybe into early 2001?
*Avid/skilled outdoorsman/ thrillseeker: (Surfboard Cover from Australia, willingness to go camping alone.)
*Love of animals. (cat bell, for safety?, also drawn cat on the front of notebook)
*Has a partner or love interest. (Two player game. Close to someone that he was sure would come looking for him. At least close enough to write a note.)

websurfer
05-18-2014, 12:13 PM
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/shore_raymond.html

someone please turn it on
for dna tests:twocents:

WWXD
07-29-2014, 08:47 PM
A couple of questions:

I can't find this case in NAMUS. Does anyone know if it's in there?

Secondly, I ran across this guy who's been missing since 1979. He was an outdoorsman and had scoliosis, and 20 years later would have been 52 years old. His family thought he'd left on purpose. What do you guys think?

http://charleyproject.org/cases/t/thomson_david.html
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/1890/181?current_page=dna

CarlK90245
07-29-2014, 09:23 PM
A couple of questions:

I can't find this case in NAMUS. Does anyone know if it's in there?

No, this John Doe is not in NamUs.


Secondly, I ran across this guy who's been missing since 1979. He was an outdoorsman and had scoliosis, and 20 years later would have been 52 years old. His family thought he'd left on purpose. What do you guys think?

http://charleyproject.org/cases/t/thomson_david.html
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/1890/181?current_page=dna

Aside from the really long timeline, he does look like a plausible possible match. You have the circumstances, and the Colorado connection. He's a little short, but not that far off.

websurfer
07-30-2014, 09:39 PM
It sure could be the same guy.Time had passed and with only bones and material postions on the area he was found, no body identifa
No, this John Doe is not in NamUs.
Cation.this looks like a match.


Aside from the really long timeline, he does look like a plausible possible match. You have the circumstances, and the Colorado connection. He's a little short, but not that far off.

LucyOso
09-25-2014, 07:32 AM
Do we have photos of the notebook pages?

webrocket
09-25-2014, 10:00 AM
If I am repeating something, please forgive me. I did not review the entire thread.

The only people I've ever heard be named Libby were Jewish and it was an old school name. According to this website, Lib or Libby, is most commonly used as a nickname for Elizabeth.

http://www.babynamegenie.com/polls/38769/results

Elizabeth Dole uses Liddy as a nickname.

justice57
10-11-2014, 10:37 PM
David Bird Thomson just started a web page "Finding Dave". Here is the link: http://www.findingdave.com/. He did serve in Vietnam and was into mountain man living. I couldn't find a forum for David Bird Thomson.

Lizbetbathory
11-14-2014, 05:52 PM
bump!

carbuff
11-21-2014, 05:27 PM
I agree that Libby is an old-school nickname, but none of the Libby's I knew growing up were Jewish. Solidly midwestern, mostly.

grateful1
01-21-2015, 10:24 AM
Sorry if I missed it here, but is there a rule out list for this unidentified?

jjohnston0827
03-13-2015, 01:07 PM
Not much on this guy but it says his wallet was found on a hiking trail. Maybe he disappeared on purpose and ended up in Colorado?

Joshua Best (https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/28001/3/)

baraby1969
04-06-2015, 02:41 PM
Hello guys/gals. I am fairly new to this site and I apologize in advance if I say something that has already been said/discussed, as I have not read this entire thread yet. After quickly reading the Doe Case on this guy it SCREAMS to me that this guy is former military and I believe a Former Marine. Being that I am retired Army and a former Marine, the following thoughts came to mind. First of all, I own several pairs of old government issued glasses that look just like the ones pictured on the Doe Network. When I was in the Marine Corps and for awhile afterward I ALWAYS had a set or two of foam ear plugs in my shower/toilet bag back, I don't know of anyone else who would have them in their shower kit and for what reason. Additionally Marines carry a rolled sleeping mat/cushion called an ISOMAT at the top of their packs. Most infantry Marines used them and in the 18 years I served in the Army, I never saw an Army Soldier use one - ever, it was a Marine thing. For the entire four years I was in the Corps I always carried a small green pocket sized notebook (they were called Memorandum pads) but the kind I used did not have a spiral binding. Also, the fact that he had all that money and large quantity of cigarettes leads me to believe he may have been in hiding for awhile or something and he planned to be up there a long time. I would assume he had been there for a while already and probably would have smoked a carton or two of cigarettes already, so nobody in their right mind would bring 4 cartons of cigarettes ANYWHERE with them unless they knew they were going to be there for a long, long time, so I would rule out suicide, unless he was terminally ill and he just went there to die. What was his food source? I'm pretty sure that this guy owned a motorcycle looking at the hole in one of his boots which could have been caused by shifting of gears with his toe. I think it is very possible that he used a dirt bike or motorcycle to get close to his location (I wonder if any abandoned motorcycles/dirt bikes were found in the area at that time). Although it looks like he had a lot of stuff with him, if packed properly, it really isn't that much. I think all this gear could have been carried in saddle bags or in a pack tied to a sissy bar. I suppose the hole in his boot could have also have been the result of snow shoes/ski clamps, etc, but then it seems it would be on both boots if that was the case. Having that kind of money on him and knowing that he was going to be spending an extended period of time in those mountains make me think that hole happened on the way there. I think he would have bought a new pair of boots had it been there when he left/prepared for his trip. I see that he had two canteens and two canteen cups. When I retired, I had several extra canteens and canteen cups in my possession. I wonder what color the duct tape was that they found? Marines sometimes carry green duct tape when deploying or going to the field. The fact that he smoked non-filter camel cigarettes leads me to believe he was on the older side of the projected age range, maybe 60. I am a smoker and the only people I know who smoke non-filtered cigarettes are older people like my dad, like older than 55/60. Also, I wonder what tax stamp was on the remaining packs of cigarettes. I think each state has their own stamp, including military bases. Although, I don't think packs inside cartons are stamped, but I could be wrong. Additionally I am far from wealthy, but I have an entire mouth full of gold fillings thanks to the Marine Corps. Every time I get my teeth cleaned now the dentist always comments on how much gold I have in my mouth. BTW, I got most of my gold fillings/crowns done while I was stationed in Hawaii, not sure if that matters. With the amount of dental work he had, that means he went to the dentist very often. Marines are required to go to the dentist twice a year and are Non deployable if they have any dental issues. I think that everything that was found with him would be an easy load for a former Marine to carry. I think he was alone because it seems to me there would have been two spoons if not. Now being a smoker of non filter camels and being at that age and altitude, it must have been VERY slow going. The neck/back degeneration is probably a common thing for a Marine who has been in for 20 or more years humping around a 75-100 lb pack. Even with this degeneration and pain I think this would have been an easy load for a Marine to carry, and would be something that he was very used to doing. I'll go back now and read the rest of this thread and throw more thoughts your way, but that's what comes to my mind initially when I read this. I would pursue looking into a military back ground for sure. I think this case is very solvable.

Things I am wondering:
What was his food source? Did he have any weapons or fishing gear? It doesn't seem logical that he would have taken all that stuff and not plenty of food, or a rifle to get food. Any weapons found/turned in from the area over the years? What did the stamp/codes on the Tylenol bottle reveal? What does it say/Logo on his poncho? Which direction was he coming from on the maps? Why would his trousers and long underwear rot away and not everything else? Farfetched thought but is it possible he accidently set himself on fire while filling and lighting his butane stove and burned himself? I'm just trying to understand why his trousers and long underwear rotted away (Bugs?).

Also he spelled memorial wrong (speaks of his education - maybe) just a thought.


William Baraby

baraby1969
04-06-2015, 02:41 PM
Hello guys/gals. I am fairly new to this site and I apologize in advance if I say something that has already been said/discussed, as I have not read this entire thread yet. After quickly reading the Doe Case on this guy it SCREAMS to me that this guy is former military and I believe a Former Marine. Being that I am retired Army and a former Marine, the following thoughts came to mind. First of all, I own several pairs of old government issued glasses that look just like the ones pictured on the Doe Network. When I was in the Marine Corps and for awhile afterward I ALWAYS had a set or two of foam ear plugs in my shower/toilet bag back, I don't know of anyone else who would have them in their shower kit and for what reason. Additionally Marines carry a rolled sleeping mat/cushion called an ISOMAT at the top of their packs. Most infantry Marines used them and in the 18 years I served in the Army, I never saw an Army Soldier use one - ever, it was a Marine thing. For the entire four years I was in the Corps I always carried a small green pocket sized notebook (they were called Memorandum pads) but the kind I used did not have a spiral binding. Also, the fact that he had all that money and large quantity of cigarettes leads me to believe he may have been in hiding for awhile or something and he planned to be up there a long time. I would assume he had been there for a while already and probably would have smoked a carton or two of cigarettes already, so nobody in their right mind would bring 4 cartons of cigarettes ANYWHERE with them unless they knew they were going to be there for a long, long time, so I would rule out suicide, unless he was terminally ill and he just went there to die. What was his food source? I'm pretty sure that this guy owned a motorcycle looking at the hole in one of his boots which could have been caused by shifting of gears with his toe. I think it is very possible that he used a dirt bike or motorcycle to get close to his location (I wonder if any abandoned motorcycles/dirt bikes were found in the area at that time). Although it looks like he had a lot of stuff with him, if packed properly, it really isn't that much. I think all this gear could have been carried in saddle bags or in a pack tied to a sissy bar. I suppose the hole in his boot could have also have been the result of snow shoes/ski clamps, etc, but then it seems it would be on both boots if that was the case. Having that kind of money on him and knowing that he was going to be spending an extended period of time in those mountains make me think that hole happened on the way there. I think he would have bought a new pair of boots had it been there when he left/prepared for his trip. I see that he had two canteens and two canteen cups. When I retired, I had several extra canteens and canteen cups in my possession. I wonder what color the duct tape was that they found? Marines sometimes carry green duct tape when deploying or going to the field. The fact that he smoked non-filter camel cigarettes leads me to believe he was on the older side of the projected age range, maybe 60. I am a smoker and the only people I know who smoke non-filtered cigarettes are older people like my dad, like older than 55/60. Also, I wonder what tax stamp was on the remaining packs of cigarettes. I think each state has their own stamp, including military bases. Although, I don't think packs inside cartons are stamped, but I could be wrong. Additionally I am far from wealthy, but I have an entire mouth full of gold fillings thanks to the Marine Corps. Every time I get my teeth cleaned now the dentist always comments on how much gold I have in my mouth. BTW, I got most of my gold fillings/crowns done while I was stationed in Hawaii, not sure if that matters. With the amount of dental work he had, that means he went to the dentist very often. Marines are required to go to the dentist twice a year and are Non deployable if they have any dental issues. I think that everything that was found with him would be an easy load for a former Marine to carry. I think he was alone because it seems to me there would have been two spoons if not. Now being a smoker of non filter camels and being at that age and altitude, it must have been VERY slow going. The neck/back degeneration is probably a common thing for a Marine who has been in for 20 or more years humping around a 75-100 lb pack. Even with this degeneration and pain I think this would have been an easy load for a Marine to carry, and would be something that he was very used to doing. I'll go back now and read the rest of this thread and throw more thoughts your way, but that's what comes to my mind initially when I read this. I would pursue looking into a military back ground for sure. I think this case is very solvable.

Things I am wondering:
What was his food source? Did he have any weapons or fishing gear? It doesn't seem logical that he would have taken all that stuff and not plenty of food, or a rifle to get food. Any weapons found/turned in from the area over the years? What did the stamp/codes on the Tylenol bottle reveal? What does it say/Logo on his poncho? Which direction was he coming from on the maps? Why would his trousers and long underwear rot away and not everything else? Farfetched thought but is it possible he accidently set himself on fire while filling and lighting his butane stove and burned himself? I'm just trying to understand why his trousers and long underwear rotted away (Bugs?).

Also he spelled memorial wrong (speaks of his education - maybe) just a thought.


William Baraby

baraby1969
04-06-2015, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE= If there were a carton (20 packs) of cigs...he probably had already smoked a few packs along the way. For a person to smoke two packs a day is pretty normal if they are a heavy smoker, which I would think this man was. People who are addicted to ciggies ALWAYS make sure they have enough and enough lighters, too. (Nothing worse than having smokes and nothing to light them with!) This would only have been enough for ten more days.[/QUOTE]

20 Packs of Cigs is two Cartons. Like you I assume he had been there for awhile and probably smoked 1 or 2 cartons already. Who in their right mind would bring 4 cartons of cigs anywhere unless they knew they were going to be there awhile.

RickshawFan
04-06-2015, 09:28 PM
I haven't read the rest of the thread, but now I'm curious....

That's an interesting thought about how the unknown may have caught himself on fire. Alternatively, his bottoms might have been better than his tops as nesting material for marmots and other critters.

The bell is almost certainly a bear bell. You wear them on your pack to signal to animals (e.g. bears) that you're around and to make themselves scarce (which they generally do). However, if Unknown was concerned about bears and a marine, he surely would have had a weapon?

My first thought on reading the initial entry in the green notebook was that he had become snowbound: winter set in earlier than he anticipated, and he got progressively weaker, thus the increasing illegibility in his writing. Sow could have preserved the body through the winter.

I don't believe the lack of food at his campsite would present a problem as far as analyzing his situation: animals would have carted it away a long time before, and backpackers don't generally carry stuff in cans, so animals would have had easy access. Alternatively, site evaluators might have looked around to see if there was a bag hanging between trees a bit away from the campsite. This would have been a food bag, and may have contained other necessities, such as toothpaste, and maybe the ID?

Now, I'll read the thread....

RickshawFan
04-06-2015, 10:07 PM
justthinkin, the more I mull over this guy, the more I'm inclined to agree. I do think, from reading the part of his note where he writes "Third choice take them up in a glider (I promise not to get sick on you," that he was giving instructions on what should be done with his ashes once he was found and cremated.

What I don't understand is why he has pairs of a few things, like the maps, canteens, drinking cups if there weren't originally someone else with him. And if there were someone else with him, presumably when they hiked out (possibly to get help?) they would have alerted the rangers, or (one hopes) filed a missing persons report when the UID never returned. In which cases he should have been identified.

Cymro, I don't know if you are planning to make contact, but I am interested to hear about any outcome from talking with the person who posted on YouTube.

I'm just now getting to this thread, so there may be some answers already, but let me guess at some of this. It is not at all unusual to carry three water bottles in the backcountry. You go down to the stream. You fill two (these are dirty water); you use your pump (I own that pump) to pump from the dirty water into the clean water bottle. You drink from the clean water bottle. Having two dirty water bottles means you have quite a supply before you go down to the water source again.

Alternatively, one of the bottles could have been for whiskey. What is more interesting is that they aren't Nalgenes (which are easier to scoop water into).

Two drinking cups? One for food, so you can eat while drinking coffee/alcohol. May depend on the shape. Sierra cups lend themselves to this purpose. Metal cups can also be used to cook food in and boil water, but he might not have liked to drink out of a metal cup since they burn your lips. Do we know if one of the cups was not metal?

Degeneration could be a minor problem. People of a certain age often have degeneration in their backs. Cartilage wears out. They go backpacking. 12 miles from the trailhead is really not that far. If you were going long distance at 12 miles a day with a heavy pack, then "degeneration" might bother you. I think it's a mistake to focus on "degeneration" in this context and imagine it to be disabling.

If there were photographs of the tent and backpack, it might be possible to determine what year they were produced. This would add to date reliability. Eureka and Jansport are well-known American backpacking companies, still in business. Just a glance, and I might even know.

Pepper spray and bell, definitely for bears.

RickshawFan
04-06-2015, 10:13 PM
Good points, justhinkin. I hadn't noticed that the sleeping bag cover was a different brand than the bag itself. I had presumed that the brown Slumberjack sleeping bag was this one: http://www.slumberjack.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=14 It would fall in the same category as the Timberland boots and Jansport backpack -- basic stuff, adequate but not what I would
take on a backcountry hike. DMH looks like they might be a cut above -- more comparable to Columbia or LLBean in the US? I can't find any indication they export to the US.

Back in the day, the better companies for packs were Kelty and Jansport. They were standouts for external frame packs: what everyone wanted. However, if external frame, UID might have had the pack for some time. LLBean would have been a substantial cut below either of those companies. I don't believe Columbia was in that business then: they made apparel, and aren't really in the gear business now either. They got into the boot business by buying Montrail, but this was only maybe 6 years ago. And now they own the Mountain Hardwear label, but that's way above Columbia in the gear pecking order.

"Sleeping bag cover" is a stuff sack? Could've been a gift. People love to give backpackers stuff sacks, 'cos they're a no brainer gift. He might have just grabbed it because it was the right size. Or, he might have used it for clothes and not the sleeping bag.

RickshawFan
04-06-2015, 11:02 PM
Possessions:
Located was fragments of sleeping cushion,
fragments of blue backpack,
a yellow-green plastic poncho,
parts of a brown sleeping bag,
blue hairbrush,
two plastic zipper bags,
Six $100 bills, one $10 bill,
one $5 bill,
five $1 bills
, green Eureka dome tent,
blue-and-black Jansport backpack,
green camping pillow,
black belt with clinging long underwear fragments,
Slumberjack sleeping bag,
empty Tylenol bottle,
eight multicolored butane lighters,
one magnifying glass, one compass,
fingernail clippers,
bell,
spoon,
pepper spray,
20 packages of Camel unfiltered cigarettes,
Butane stove with two fuel cans,
sweetwater water-filtration kit,
pocket-sized Battleship game,
round red-and-blue canteen,
two green plastic military-style canteens,
pair of sunglasses,
pair of reading glasses,
silver Sharper Image binoculars,
"4 in 1" Radio Shack game,
two drinking cups,
aluminum cooking pot,
pair of tweezers,
package of foam earplugs,
package of razor blades,
tent repair kit,
pair of blue wool socks with duct tape around the toes,
roll of duct tape,
two National Geographic trail maps of the Flat Tops.
Other: A pocket-sized, spiral notebook

http://doenetwork.org/cases/789umco.html

All these items but no wallet or identification. There is a reason he didn't have those.

Now that I see this list, I can add to some of my comments above.

1. This is not car camping equipment (unless the tent was largish). The Slumberjack might have been a mummy bag.

2. This is likely a small backpacking stove. Two canisters of fuel is not very much.

3. There is no way from the photo of the pack to figure out exactly how large it is. However, it looks to be a pack for multiple overnights.

4. This is not bottom-of-the-line equipment (Walmart would be in this category). It is mid-range.

5. A sleeping bag sack with a different brand name on it may have tied onto his pack better and/or the Slumberjack might not have come with a stuff sack....... lots of possibilities.

6. This person is pitifully lacking apparel for "weather". A plastic poncho couldn't even begin to take care of a rainstorm (it blows around and you get the water all over you, and it snags in branches). A person would generally have raingear tops and bottoms unless he was unfamiliar with those mountains.

7. I don't see any "insulation" listed, like a fleece or jacket. It could have been eaten by mice..... Lack of insulation may have been the reason this guy was in his sleeping bag: to keep warm. Was there even any other clothing besides what he had on?

8. Foam earplugs are often used in backcountry shelters/hostels because people snore.

9. This might have been a homeless guy and not from anywhere in particular. You'd be amazed at the number of homeless guys who hang out in the woods even in the dead of winter in New England. They head into town to the homeless shelters for shower/food/used stuff. Sometimes, they have a piece or two of good equipment: some gear stores sell returned items cheaply. The Sweetwater filter here is as good as anything you could get back then in the filter category, though, and replacement filters aren't cheap. In fact, it is noteworthy that he was smart enough to worry about water quality.

10. The mice got his socks and he had to patch them with duct tape.

11. There doesn't seem to be any booze, except maybe that's what one of the flasks is for?

12. You don't take a stake hammering tool backpacking. You use a rock.

13. I'll bet he hung his food/toothpaste etc. in a tree.

14. No headlamp/flashlight/candle lantern.

15. He might not have had Tylenol in the Tylenol container.

Tulessa
04-06-2015, 11:41 PM
If I am repeating something, please forgive me. I did not review the entire thread.

The only people I've ever heard be named Libby were Jewish and it was an old school name. According to this website, Lib or Libby, is most commonly used as a nickname for Elizabeth.

http://www.babynamegenie.com/polls/38769/results

Elizabeth Dole uses Liddy as a nickname.

Web, My niece is named Olivia. They call her Lib or Libby for short. :)

baraby1969
04-07-2015, 10:09 AM
After serving 22 years in the military, I write in all CAPS. I have to mentally force myself not to. I'm going to see if i can dig up a pair of my old glasses and see how they match up to the ones found at the camp site. It seems like there are many items missing from his site that he truly should have like a knife or a gun or a small hatchet or at least and extra pair of socks and a flashlight. I no longer carry a wallet because it aggravates my back problems, but I do carry ID around my neck in a badge holder. Perhaps someone else had came across this site previously thinking it was just abandoned and took some of items that they saw laying around. I wonder if the items in his pack were strewn around as if searched or if everything was packed as it should be. I wonder where they found the money? I initially thought the drinking cups were canteen cups (metal cups that the canteen would slide into), but they are not. I'm sure they did a thorough job searching the area, but I to wonder if there is something else (another bag) still up there. I think the duct tape around his socks was to help keep him warm/dry as the hole in his boot clearly goes completely threw all layers.

ForeverAmber806
04-07-2015, 12:35 PM
I personally think that our John Doe decided to head out on an hike and spend several days camping in the area. Nothing suspicious or a suicide mission...just getting away. I used to live in Colorado and we did this very often. Something happened to cause him to become incapacitated on his camping trip. Expecting that he wouldn't make it out alive he pinned a note not to a person named "Lib" but to his "Liberator". His letter shows a little bit of witty humor and I can totally see him sarcastically (maybe that's not the right word...more like "playful" maybe???) referring to the person that may find him as his liberator. He very well could be equating his situation and the very real possibility of him dying out there in a situation he had no control of as his "prison". I'm sure this felt very imprisoning.

lib·er·a·tor -noun:
a person who liberates a person or place from imprisonment or oppression.

Just my two cents!

ForeverAmber806
04-07-2015, 12:40 PM
Also another quick thought...my ex-husband was in the Army and stationed at Fort Carson. It was VERY common (like every weekend) for him to head out on his own for some hiking or an overnight camping trip for hunting. We did this together, he did it by himself, army buddies would go sometimes...it's a VERY popular thing to do for the out doorsy type soldiers. On one of his weekend trips he was stalked by a mountain lion for a bit. Just adding that in that it's not unusual activity at all!

ForeverAmber806
04-07-2015, 12:50 PM
I'm so sorry for the post after post...now my thoughts are obsessing on this case. Mentioning earlier that something could have "incapacitated" him made me start thinking about what exactly could have done that. I'm not a medical expert by any means but could something like a snake/spider bite or a twisted ankle show up on an autopsy if the body is badly decomposed? I realize this information doesn't really help find out the identity of this person but it just doesn't feel like a suicide or terminal illness situation. Ok, I'll stop posting for now. :)

carbuff
04-07-2015, 02:01 PM
Back in the day, the better companies for packs were Kelty and Jansport. They were standouts for external frame packs: what everyone wanted. However, if external frame, UID might have had the pack for some time. LLBean would have been a substantial cut below either of those companies. I don't believe Columbia was in that business then: they made apparel, and aren't really in the gear business now either. They got into the boot business by buying Montrail, but this was only maybe 6 years ago. And now they own the Mountain Hardwear label, but that's way above Columbia in the gear pecking order.

"Sleeping bag cover" is a stuff sack? Could've been a gift. People love to give backpackers stuff sacks, 'cos they're a no brainer gift. He might have just grabbed it because it was the right size. Or, he might have used it for clothes and not the sleeping bag.

Are we talking about the same Jansport? Company that makes cute backpacks for schoolkids? Tears through in a week if you try to put real gear in it?

mojave_red
04-07-2015, 03:02 PM
Are we talking about the same Jansport? Company that makes cute backpacks for schoolkids? Tears through in a week if you try to put real gear in it?

I used to carry a bright yellow internal-frame Jansport backpack about thirty years ago - very well-made, still usable. It may be that they have different quality levels for different equipment, and that daypacks for students are much less durable than daypacks for, say, rock climbers or other outdoorspeople.

baraby1969
04-07-2015, 03:23 PM
Does anyone have a closeup picture of the maps?

baraby1969
04-07-2015, 04:02 PM
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/buckley_paul.html

Possible match Paul Edward Buckley

Wears Glasses, 72 inches tall, destination unknown.

carbuff
04-07-2015, 04:08 PM
I used to carry a bright yellow internal-frame Jansport backpack about thirty years ago - very well-made, still usable. It may be that they have different quality levels for different equipment, and that daypacks for students are much less durable than daypacks for, say, rock climbers or other outdoorspeople.

Difference between east and west, maybe? I have never seen a sport-quality Jansport pack here in MA.

RickshawFan
04-07-2015, 10:09 PM
Are we talking about the same Jansport? Company that makes cute backpacks for schoolkids? Tears through in a week if you try to put real gear in it?

Jansport got bought out by Vanity Fair, which also owns The North Face and some other brands. In the process, Jansport went down a few notches in quality. TNF went all "urban outdoors" and is almost entirely in the apparel market. It does very little that you'd call very technical. For instance, TNF uses the same tent designs over and over and has done for years; its packs are way behind the times. The high end of the original North Face split off the night before it was going bankrupt and got bought out: one guy started Black Diamond, and another started Mountain Hardwear (now owned by Columbia).

Yes, Jansport was a very reputable pack company. Very. I had one of their travel backpacks in the 1970's. Their packs were very durable, good fabrics, well stitched. Its current products bear no resemblance to those made before the Vanity Fair days. Now, they are sold at places like JC Penneys and not at quality outdoor stores.

From the looks of UID's pack, he had one from the pre-Vanity Fair days. These were not cheap packs. However, he could have bought it from someone else who was upgrading to one of the newer, more high tech, pack companies.

RickshawFan
04-07-2015, 10:24 PM
Can anyone tell from the photos whether the Jansport is an internal frame or external? If it's external, it would have to be a large pack. If internal, the sleeping bag may have had to be tied on the outside.

That's a good thought about the socks needing duct tape because of the hole in the shoe. I wonder if the shoe de-laminated on the trip.

I wouldn't especially expect a spare pair of socks to be found. Socks make great critter nests.

The food bag had to have been hung somewhere. LE might not have thought to look upwards when they did their search.

RickshawFan
04-07-2015, 10:29 PM
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/buckley_paul.html

Possible match Paul Edward Buckley

Wears Glasses, 72 inches tall, destination unknown.

Hmmmm....he would have had to be wandering for at least 2 years after he was reported missing, but he sounds like a wandering type.

Is there any more information on Buckley?

mojave_red
04-07-2015, 10:55 PM
Can anyone tell from the photos whether the Jansport is an internal frame or external? If it's external, it would have to be a large pack. If internal, the sleeping bag may have had to be tied on the outside....


Maybe like this one: Jansport Cascade Internal Frame Backpack, circa 2000
72610

baraby1969
04-08-2015, 09:00 AM
I don't have any more info about Buckley. He was a truck driver at one time and truck drivers are at high risk of developing various degenerative spinal disorders due to the stress that repetitive lifting of cargo can put on the spine. Since Dental records are on filefor both men I went a head and sent it in, seems like it would be an quick way to rule him out. I also asked if there was a list of people who have been ruled out. I'll let you know if they reply.

RickshawFan
04-08-2015, 08:01 PM
Maybe like this one: Jansport Cascade Internal Frame Backpack, circa 2000
72610

Oooh! You're clever! I believe that would be another clue if it didn't come out until 2000. Some stores would have had it in stock into the next season or the season after. It's even possible Jansport knows where those packs got shipped, since I doubt it was stocked in some of the more conspicuous stores, like REI, because it was getting to be a little "old school" by then. There's plenty of room on a pack that size for what the UID had: you can see from the photo that a sleeping bag is strapped to the outside. The photo you provided even gives some ideas about how he would have packed it.

That is a 70 liter pack: biggish, especially if you carry stuff on the outside as used to be common.

That "sleeping bag sack" may have been used for clothing, and not a sleeping bag. Personally, I never squeeze my clothing into a tight sack, since the sack ends up like a big lump and is hard to find a spot for in a pack. I pack my extra clothing (such as I have on a multi-day trip, lol) loosely in a larger bag and then plop it in my pack in the crevices.

It is not that rare these days to not take a whole lot of clothes on a backpack trip —why stink up 2 sets of clothes instead of one?—but it is very noticeable in this case that there don't seem to have been any insulation (e.g. puffy jacket or fleece), rain gear, or spare socks. You just don't go out there without those items in the mountains, even almost on a day hike! If the guy had a good tent and pack and long underwear, not to mention a top notch filter, stove, bear spray, and maps, he would have had the right apparel. I mean, really, he had a "tent repair kit." (I don't even have one of those. Interesting that he had a tent repair kit and no first aid kit.) Even if he were a hobo, he would have been entitled to some kind of warm jacket at a nearby homeless outreach. I don't get this at all.

Either someone stole a down jacket, rain gear, a headlamp, hat (and maybe a pair of socks), or the police missed something on the scene. ( If the money was on the body, it might have creeped out a thief, and was not touchable.) Plus, there will have been food, toothpaste, et al. (maybe a first aid kit), either hung from a high branch some distance away (most likely) or they were in a bear bin tossed on the ground (less likely), also some distance away. These will have been very easy to miss, if the police were not familiar with backpacker protocol.

mojave_red
04-08-2015, 10:13 PM
Oooh! You're clever! I believe that would be another clue if it didn't come out until 2000. Some stores would have had it in stock into the next season or the season after. It's even possible Jansport knows where those packs got shipped, since I doubt it was stocked in some of the more conspicuous stores, like REI, because it was getting to be a little "old school" by then. There's plenty of room on a pack that size for what the UID had: you can see from the photo that a sleeping bag is strapped to the outside. The photo you provided even gives some ideas about how he would have packed it.

That is a 70 liter pack: biggish, especially if you carry stuff on the outside as used to be common.

I don't know the start date for that backpack might be, but the reference I used was some guy's equipment review in 2000. I also found a used Cascade 65 (slightly smaller) on eBay that was sold in Jan 15, so they are still around.

baraby1969
04-08-2015, 10:47 PM
726647266272663726647266272663Wow, I can't tell what color his pack was but the hat sure looks like the kind. He also carried a sleeping roll so it could have looked like one of these. Notice that the roll/may in this picture is wrapped in a waterproof bag. Perhaps he used the surf board bag for that, to keep it dry.

baraby1969
04-09-2015, 09:58 AM
I agree. There is definitely stuff missing. What I wouldn't give to go and spend a day or two in the area looking around one more time. I truly believe his ID/wallet is probably with his jacket/coat either somewhere on the side of that hill or someone found it and took it. He believed he would be found and identified. I think it must have been something very bad that happened, like a heart attack/stroke. Maybe the drawing of the heart is symbolic, Maybe that's a picture of Joe Camel in the middle of the heart, I don't know. He knew he was six miles from freedom, it would have taken something really bad to stop his progress, especially if it was downhill. Maybe it was a combination of both. Maybe he had a heart attack or stroke and couldn't move much, then burned some of his items over time to stay warm/comfortable at night and just didn't wake up one day. If it was snow/cold then he could have turned his sleeping mat into a sled, like the old plastic roll up sleds we had as kids. He had 8 lighters and notebook paper as well as other burnable material to stay warm if he had to. Another thought, why would he go off the trail where no one would see him if he had a heart attack, other than to take shelter? Man this one really fascinates me.

mojave_red
04-09-2015, 12:50 PM
...This "black logo'd bag" is actually a Surf Board Cover. The "Dartt" is a style of surfboard, and "extra long" refers to 6 1/2 feet in length...

I know nothing about surfing.
However, given that the surfboard bag is 6.5' long, do you suppose he might have had plans to use it as a bivouac sack when he didn't want to put up the tent? Is that what is meant by "sleeping bag cover"?

Would a sleeping bag and a person even fit in the surf board cover?
Is it waterproof or even wind-proof?

RickshawFan
04-09-2015, 07:58 PM
726647266272663726647266272663Wow, I can't tell what color his pack was but the hat sure looks like the kind. He also carried a sleeping roll so it could have looked like one of these. Notice that the roll/may in this picture is wrapped in a waterproof bag. Perhaps he used the surf board bag for that, to keep it dry.

Thanks for the photos! Those rolls are sleeping pads. They're made out of "closed-cell foam": think, yoga mat. I have never seen a closed-cell foam mattress wrapped in a bag, since they aren't porous. Come to think of it, the UID didn't have a mattress. That seems very unusual to me. Because some potentially high end pieces of gear are missing from the site, I'm thinking someone stole them.

Closed-cell foam mattress pads provide good insulation, but they're not comfortable unless you're a boy scout, because they're about 1/2 inch thick. If UID was lying down in the tent, he would have been on the pad (you don't go backpacking without a sleeping pad, because you'll freeze your butt). A closed-cell foam pad would not be especially attractive to a thief. However, if it had been a Thermarest (or generic), it might have been worth while to a thief to roll the body over and get it out.

RickshawFan
04-09-2015, 08:05 PM
I agree. There is definitely stuff missing. What I wouldn't give to go and spend a day or two in the area looking around one more time. I truly believe his ID/wallet is probably with his jacket/coat either somewhere on the side of that hill or someone found it and took it. He believed he would be found and identified. I think it must have been something very bad that happened, like a heart attack/stroke. Maybe the drawing of the heart is symbolic, Maybe that's a picture of Joe Camel in the middle of the heart, I don't know. He knew he was six miles from freedom, it would have taken something really bad to stop his progress, especially if it was downhill. Maybe it was a combination of both. Maybe he had a heart attack or stroke and couldn't move much, then burned some of his items over time to stay warm/comfortable at night and just didn't wake up one day. If it was snow/cold then he could have turned his sleeping mat into a sled, like the old plastic roll up sleds we had as kids. He had 8 lighters and notebook paper as well as other burnable material to stay warm if he had to. Another thought, why would he go off the trail where no one would see him if he had a heart attack, other than to take shelter? Man this one really fascinates me.

An experienced backpacker would generally get off a trail somewhat to set up a camp. It's called "leave no trace" camping. Siting a camp this way makes it easier to cover up the location when you're ready to leave. The exception would be if there is a site that has been frequently used that is right near the trail.

This was not an inexperienced backpacker.

A dog with another hiker could easily have found the camp site and the body. However, it really looks to me as though someone has taken the most attractive items, except maybe the Sweetwater filter and the stove, depending on quality.

I wish we had dimensions on that sack.....

RickshawFan
04-09-2015, 08:46 PM
My thoughts are evolving.....

We might want to consider the possibility that someone came upon the scene, stole some items, and left others. For instance, do we know whether those boots fit the feet? Were the socks on? Could the poncho have been left and someone took raingear? (A cheap poncho seems very unlikely to me, unless the weather was projected to be good for several days.) Maybe an intruder left the second map?

Was the bear spray can empty? Bear spray is very expensive, by the way. Maybe $33 around 2000: attractive theft item. And you cannot take it on a plane.

Where was the money? In the guy's underwear? In the shoe? Or in a wallet with no ID in it? (The guy might not have been a driver, so no DL.)

Is there a way to enlarge the photos on the Doe Network?

Is your understanding that the sack has the word Dartt on it? With two T's? AFAIK, the surfboard company has one T. Also, from the photo, the bag looks cylindrical. This, then, would likely belong to a mattress which is the standard width but extra long. 20" x 77". This would correspond to the fairly tall UID. He could have been slender, and not needed the usual Large, which measures 25"x 77" I wish we had a ruler next to the bag so we could get dimensions.

Can anyone read the small print on the bag under the word Dartt?

Now I see that although I thought degeneration in the back might not be that serious, analysis shows the man would have walked with pain. However, he was not that far along the trail. And he might have thought the tylenol would take care of it.

Too bad we don't have the autopsy information. Is there a way to get it?

carbuff
04-09-2015, 08:59 PM
I know quite a few hikers who don't normally carry their ID with them into the mountains. They leave it locked in the glove box of their vehicle, figuring the odds of having it stolen are less than the odds of losing it when they fall in the water on a stream crossing, or whatever.

ETA: afterthought -- some people with chronic pain just try to keep going right through it.

RickshawFan
04-09-2015, 09:13 PM
I Googled this UID, and found several references at other sites. I thought they might be helpful to us here.

http://www.officialcoldcaseinvestigations.com/showthread.php?2205-Unidentified-Male-Colorado-2004

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20060420/VALLEYNEWS/104200035

https://www.colorado.gov/apps/coldcase/casedetail.html?id=256003

Including the story of the hunters who found the body:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=22842&st=0&#last


I wish they had done an analysis of the Tylenol container in case it had contained something else. This might have a bearing on suicide, or, if pain pills how much pain the guy was in.

This case doesn't sound like a suicide 'cos the guy had too much safety equipment! I mean, who takes a tent repair kit and duct tape and games on a suicide mission. No rope? That would be way easier. Speaking of rope, there has to be parachute cord hanging somewhere.

carbuff
04-09-2015, 09:32 PM
Can anyone read the small print on the bag under the word Dartt?


Dart or Dartt (could be a stylized single t, maybe)
Australia underneath

Standard Long.

The rays around the sun look like they could be letters also, but I can't make them out.

RickshawFan
04-09-2015, 10:18 PM
How about:

Robert Scott, from Grand Junction, Colorado, missing 2002, height 72", 160 lbs (slender)
Grand Junction is on same interstate as White River National Forest, west towards Utah, 1 hour 19 mins. drive

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25974/61/

https://www.colorado.gov/apps/coldcase/casedetail.html?id=1485

carbuff
04-10-2015, 12:39 AM
I found an article indicating they're aware of the possibility and don't think it's him: http://www.postindependent.com/article/20041018/VALLEYNEWS/110180005

RickshawFan
04-10-2015, 09:31 AM
I found an article indicating they're aware of the possibility and don't think it's him: http://www.postindependent.com/article/20041018/VALLEYNEWS/110180005

That was a great find!

From what that article reports the police as saying, I can't see real obstacles to matching the UID with Scott. I realize Scott left a suicide note, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence he actually killed himself. Perhaps he just wanted to disappear permanently? And had just gone to the woods to hang out for a while until he could make decisions and move on?

To me, several features of Scott's case complement UID's, e.g. UID's car has never been found, but Scott's car has.

It would help our case if the police had said whether:
-Scott had backpacking experience
-Scott was a heavy smoker
-there was a "Lib" in Scott's life
-Scott had damage to his back, or if he was taking painkillers perhaps not knowing what the problem was
-Scott liked to play games, e.g. Battleships
-Scott owned a pair of Sharper Image binoculars
-Scott had a pair of boots with a hole (although this could have happened on the trip, or these could belong to a thief)
-there was non-backpacking clothing in Scott's car, or other detritus that gets left over while packing for a backpack trip
-if that pack was purchased in Grand Junction (there's an REI there, and other outdoor stores); I'll bet several of the other items (e.g. the filter and bear spray) were bought at the same time
-Scott had credit cards with him, and were credit card purchases tracked to see if backpacking equipment had been purchased (that Jansport pack really sticks out to me)

It's interesting how little information LE seems to have on Scott!

carbuff
04-10-2015, 10:09 AM
It sounds like Scott is the kind of man who would have owned most of this stuff and wouldn't have to buy it just for the trip.

RickshawFan
04-10-2015, 05:35 PM
It sounds like Scott is the kind of man who would have owned most of this stuff and wouldn't have to buy it just for the trip.

Is there a place where it is described what kind of man Scott is? I couldn't find any information.

The backpacking equipment at the UID campsite needn't have been purchased just for the one trip. The UID could have owned a lot of it for some time. That model pack, however, seems not to be older than 2000. The UID was also an experienced backpacker: I can tell from the list of surviving equipment and the fact that everything had a purpose. There was no extraneous stuff (except lighters and cigarettes), for instance, that UID packed "just in case": no street clothes, no extra extra pair of socks, no spare underwear, no coins..... People who aren't experienced pack all kinds of extra crap:their packs weigh twice as much as they should.

When people are heading out on a trip, they often purchase one or two pieces of new gear, either as an upgrade (e.g. a pack) or something they've wanted to have during a prior trip. It wouldn't surprise me if UID did this. Often folks will also make an "anxiety purchase" or two while they're at it. UID might have bought the bear spray and bear bell with this in mind..... Anti-bear stuff is a common "anxiety purchase" for folks preparing for trips, even if there's no history of bear problems at their destination.

carbuff
04-10-2015, 07:29 PM
I was referring to the information about Scott in the article I posted, indicating he liked to hunt and fish in the mountains.

Yeah, I know about purchasing gear for a trip :) I hike too, though as our knees get older, we've been doing less hiking and more canoeing.

He did pack two extras: those electronic games.

RickshawFan
04-10-2015, 11:55 PM
I was referring to the information about Scott in the article I posted, indicating he liked to hunt and fish in the mountains.

Yeah, I know about purchasing gear for a trip :) I hike too, though as our knees get older, we've been doing less hiking and more canoeing.

He did pack two extras: those electronic games.

Oh, okay, now I see. Dang, Scott sounds like a good match for the UID. And the location where he went missing just sounds too coincidental. Two guys about the same age and build, both good outdoorsmen, missing about the same time, in one swathe of forest?

I bet Scott was a smoker: he doesn't look like a health nut.

I don't believe UID was dead several years before he was found, because the tent would have been shredded (I once saw a tent in ribbons, and I don't think it had been abandoned that long), and the report implied it was identifiably tent-ish. 2002 sounds about right, maybe fall. They could have analyzed the leaves under the tent, I suppose.

I wonder if the local sheriff would be willing to provide us with any more information?

Yes, the two electronic games were evidently his "luxury items." I doubt they weighed very much? I was trying to say that I was impressed that the UID didn't set out with random extras or "anxiety-based overpacking", as a neophyte would: this takes a lot of confidence and a great deal of thought. It would be interesting to know where he packed the pack.....'cos he almost certainly eliminated things.

But I still think someone came across the campsite and stole some items and maybe swapped his boots. And there has to be a bag in a tree or a bear bin. IMO. However, he didn't "bear bag" his 20 packs of cigarettes? Maybe mice aren't into tobacco?

Maybe the UID ate water hemlock, confusing it with something edible. This is not a rare occurrence.

I destroyed my legs backpacking (even with just a 22lb load) incidentally, so like you I go boating (and mountain biking and car camping and snowshoeing), but I have also worked in the outdoor recreation industry for years.

Babyslims
04-15-2015, 02:24 AM
Sorry if this is a repeat but found this missing man and it reminded me of this case :) Tried searching the thread but didn't get any results with the last name.

Robert Carl Befort
http://www.missingin.org/reg8552/robert_carl_befort.htm

carbuff
04-15-2015, 09:55 AM
O/T RickshawLover, do you happen to know anything about a company called Mark Pack Works? They apparently made some gear in the 90s. We're trying to locate them in another thread (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?34630-NV-Wellington-WhtMale-574UMNV-35-50-Off-of-Sand-Canyon-Road-Mar-92).

bcf
04-15-2015, 07:00 PM
Sorry if this is a repeat but found this missing man and it reminded me of this case :) Tried searching the thread but didn't get any results with the last name.

Robert Carl Befort
http://www.missingin.org/reg8552/robert_carl_befort.htm

Good find, Babyslims! But I wonder if Mr. Befort had as much experience in hiking as the UID seemed to have?

Babyslims
04-15-2015, 10:54 PM
Good find, Babyslims! But I wonder if Mr. Befort had as much experience in hiking as the UID seemed to have?

Have no clue, wish they had more information on him though.

RickshawFan
04-17-2015, 05:46 PM
Sorry if this is a repeat but found this missing man and it reminded me of this case :) Tried searching the thread but didn't get any results with the last name.

Robert Carl Befort
http://www.missingin.org/reg8552/robert_carl_befort.htm

Well, that's an interesting possibility! I would guess that the White River UID died in 2002 or so, but that doesn't mean Befort didn't go wandering around the US before he died.

carbuff
04-17-2015, 08:00 PM
The timeframe is "No longer than 5 years prior" so 2000 is within the range.

He had back surgery. The UID had spinal degeneration--don't know if it included surgery.

The UID was around 6 feet tall. Befort is a bit taller at 75". Weight unknown.

That's about the end of the objective information to match on. The tattoos would have been gone and apparently they didn't find any hair, either. There's no reconstruction to compare.

And that note is just too weird to be a coincidence. This one should be turned in.

GGE
04-17-2015, 10:28 PM
re: Befort...
first, a reminder that someone a few pages back said they have a relative named Olive who is nicknamed Libby...

anyway I looked up Robert Carl Befort on ancestry.com and his second wife is/was Toni Lillian Olive (I won't put her maiden name for privacy purposes I guess). Just thought that was an interesting coincidence.

carbuff
04-18-2015, 11:26 AM
I forgot to include his Namus link last night:

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20213/15

He seems to have been a biker, judging from his nickname "Biker Bob" and the "Live to Ride" tattoo. Which doesn't preclude being a hiker as well but does make it less likely.

He appears to have been driving a stolen car that has never been located. Silver Springs Nevada to the WMNF area is around 800 miles, a long day of driving.

baraby1969
04-23-2015, 11:39 AM
I'm following another thread in Websleuths of an unidentified man found in Nevada where law Enforcement has asked for help and they even log in here and answer questions regularly. That case is rolling right along. With the help of Sleuthers, LE has been able to answer questions that have gone unanswered for over 20 years. This case reminds me of that one. Both male skeletons found a long time ago in remote locations with various items. With these cases being so old, I honestly don't think either will be solved unless someone comes forward and recognizes the UID, especially if they are not locals. I believe both cases are solvable, but the other case that has law enforcement and Websleuths working together is moving right along nicely and will probably be solved. I wish the detectives working this case could/would answer some of the questions that have been asked.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?34630-NV-Wellington-Unidentified-Remains-Found-Off-Of-Sand-Canyon-Road-Near-Wellington/page12