PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 2005 -- Part 4

[Amraann]

Continue Here please :)

[christine2448]

Thank you Amra.


More witnessess come forward....http://www.wjactv.com/news/9218826/detail.html

I'm not sure if this is the shop owners we have already heard about in the last few days or if this is in addition.

Could be the same story....just from different news source?

[christine2448]

FINALLY!!!!!!

Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira called Tuesday for an elite state police investigative review team to evaluate Bellefonte Police Department's handling of the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar.

[luthersmama]

A link:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/chester_county/14595740.htm

[christine2448]

A link:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/chester_county/14595740.htmThanks luthermama, I forgot to put link, I did put it in media links only...the article I was referring to, but forget to post here :doh: thanks again :)

Ahhh, the link I had was different...http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14597149.htm

I think close to the same info though

[bykerladi]

I just want to say

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU MODS
for making this a spotlight!! You rock!!

This case really bothers me - its bad enough that as a state worker you get paid bubkus, but then to go missing any maybe hurt because of your job... its horrible. I'm a state employee and a few of my corworkers have been threatened - one even had a bomb put under her car. We honestly don't get paid enough to deal with that stuff.

And if he disappeared by choice, I think his butt needs a good whupping for making people worry unnecessarily about him.

[Lili]

News this evening stated that Tony Gricar was in Centre County today to meet with police/investigators. He stated that he has spoken with police and with Patty Fornicola about the "sighting" in the Tyrone area antique shop and they feel it was definately Patty who was with Ray in that shop.

Tony Gricar feels that his uncle is dead, but wants all avenues investigated.

There will probably be a link available later this evening at wjactv.com.

[christine2448]

News this evening stated that Tony Gricar was in Centre County today to meet with police/investigators. He stated that he has spoken with police and with Patty Fornicola about the "sighting" in the Tyrone area antique shop and they feel it was definately Patty who was with Ray in that shop.

Tony Gricar feels that his uncle is dead, but wants all avenues investigated.

There will probably be a link available later this evening at wjactv.com.
Did he state exactly what makes him believe he is dead lili? Foul play, suicide?

[Lili]

No Cristine, in fact a news brief was just on during commercials and the morning girl again repeated that Tony Gricar was in Bellefonte to discuss new leads, etc. and that Tony is convinced that Ray is deceased. No addition explaination.

Now that I am able to have a tv running in my background, I keep it turned to this local channel most of the time. This is a link to the videos available, but it isn't the evening news that gave an interview with Tony Gricar. If you scroll down to the play bar on the right side, click play and I think you can watch it. http://www.wjactv.com/video/9236609/index.html

[christine2448]

Thanks Lili...keep us posted....thanks for everything you do on here for us who are so far away, yet, still so very concerned and confused!

[lymom3]

He stated that he has spoken with police and with Patty Fornicola about the "sighting" in the Tyrone area antique shop and they feel it was definately Patty who was with Ray in that shop.
I continue to be curious about this statement. The woman in the shop sure didn't match Patty's description in the least. She might want to believe it was her just to save face or not to want to believe or admit that there might have been something else going on, but I'm not sure about Tony though. I'd like to know why he is so convinced that it was her also. Seems like there must be a piece missing...

[christine2448]

WOULDN'T you have loved to be a little bird in the room when Tony Gricar met with investigators yesterday in Bellefonte?

Tony Gricar, the nephew, was stunned like the rest of us when new information came out in the CDT about "missed leads" in the Ray Gricar probe.

centerdaily.com

[Lili]

This evening's News at 6: Today Tony Gricar traveled to Lewisburg....

Another tidbit: A book left on Gricar's desk was left open to Vacancy of District Attorney. :eek:

That was about it! :confused:

[christine2448]

This evening's News at 6: Today Tony Gricar traveled to Lewisburg....

Another tidbit: A book left on Gricar's desk was left open to Vacancy of District Attorney. :eek:

That was about it! :confused:
Get outta here!

[Lili]

Get outta here!
No shlt!! They showed a picture of the book (like a legal type book) with the page open...right page the words "District Attorney" was the title. Talk about cryptic! This was planned...

[christine2448]

No shlt!! They showed a picture of the book (like a legal type book) with the page open...right page the words "District Attorney" was the title. Talk about cryptic! This was planned...
Can you find this info somewhere on web Lili, so I can show my sis and mom, they won't believe it!!!!

[Lili]

Can you find this info somewhere on web Lili, so I can show my sis and mom, they won't believe it!!!!I will keep checking, but this was just on, minutes ago...I keep checking wjactv.com and centredaileytimes.com

Edited to add: I wonder if this is the reason Tony is convinced that he is dead!

[christine2448]

I will keep checking, but this was just on, minutes ago...I keep checking wjactv.com and centredaileytimes.com
Thanks, cause they won't believe me...this is very personal for them...I mean for me too, but more for them...they were more heavily involved with the dealings with him...my sister is very upset by this whole thing.

[christine2448]

I will keep checking, but this was just on, minutes ago...I keep checking wjactv.com and centredaileytimes.com

Edited to add: I wonder if this is the reason Tony is convinced that he is dead!
You know lil, I wonder if this is part of a cover up, cause of everything that is going on....ya know? Maybe now, to stop the investigating team from uncovering something, this is coming out...to MAKE IT LOOK like he left on his own accord??

[Lili]

You know lil, I wonder if this is part of a cover up, cause of everything that is going on....ya know? Maybe now, to stop the investigating team from uncovering something, this is coming out...to MAKE IT LOOK like he left on his own accord??
I have thought about that. There was a search, but not as extensive as I would have thought being that he was the DA. Then there was the big drug bust that he was involved with shortly before he disappeared. Then this week:
"STATE COLLEGE -- Local and state police nabbed 10 people early Tuesday morning, capping a 17-month investigation into an alleged Centre County crack cocaine distribution network.

But State College resident Michael Wright, whom police call the kingpin of the ring, remains at large.

Conducted by State College police, the state police Troop G Vice and Narcotics Unit and the Centre County District Attorney's Office, the investigation produced arrest warrants for 15 people who face 116 felony charges and 32 misdemeanor charges. Most are residents of Centre County.

Most ... face multiple counts of delivery of crack cocaine, conspiracy to deliver crack cocaine and other charges. They were arraigned before District Judge Carmine Prestia, who set bail in amounts ranging from $2,500 to $125,000. Some could face federal prosecution."
Read the full story: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/local/14597150.htm

Names/bail: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/local/14597141.htm

Sometimes, when I think about the Luna case, I think maybe he is under protection, or under cover. The sightings with "mystery woman" may have been to aid in his "disappearance." There is always HOPE. But I just can't imagine how it would feel to leave your loved ones thinking you are dead!!

I hope he's sitting in some comfortable chair somewhere, reading all the forums on the internet about him. :cool:

[Hbgchick]

First of all, THANK YOU MODS for spotlighting this case! It's been near and dear to many of us since day one.

And WHAT is this about a book left open on his desk to "Vacancy of District Attorney"? What's that mean? What kind of book? Can someone describe that more fully?

I also believe that the woman seen with Ray Gricar was not Patty Fornicola. Men (and women too, probably - don't mean to sound sexist here) often take their wives/SOs and their mistresses that they're cheating with to the same places, so it would not surprise me if Patty were with Ray one day, and this mystery woman was with him the next in the same shop.

Patty has a very distinctive appearance and the description of the other woman is nowhere near Patty's. I feel terribly for Patty - not only does the man she loves disappear, but now all of these rumors about another woman. But I also know (from experience, unfortunately) that no matter how much you think you know someone things are not always as they seem.

[Lili]

.....And WHAT is this about a book left open on his desk to "Vacancy of District Attorney"? What's that mean? What kind of book? Can someone describe that more fully?All I can tell you is that on the news as the newscaster was talking about the case, he said that in Ray's office, there was an open book on his desk, turned to a section about "vacancy in the DA's office." They showed an open book. The title on the right page was "District Attorney." It was the way it was left from his visit to his office the night before, according to the news article.

It was Johnstown's WJAC-TV's 6:00 p.m. news. I have not found a link that shows that clip...

[Usher737]

I know some people have been critical of the Dateline piece on Ray. I watched it last night and I thought it was alright. I think any national attention on this case is wonderful and can be potentially helpful. They could not put all the details in their segment. I liked seeing the area he vanished from especially the river. I hope this generates some new leads.


He also was featured on the CBS show "Without A Trace" and then The Early Show on Friday morning. Here is a link to The Early Show.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/31/earlyshow/main1458699.shtml

[gatetrekker44]

because they showed the actual laptop that was retrieved as well as the hard drive that was found SEPARATE from the actual laptop. And what struck me about it was the the fact that the hard drive appeared to be in much better shape than the laptop itself(like maybe someone removed it and used it in another computer to see what was on it). The hard drive just didn't appear to have been in the water as long as the laptop. And I found it hard to believe that LE was not able to retrieve ANY info from it(like maybe it had been deliberately erased?).
I believe more than ever that Ray met with foul play-and I am stil not discounting a link with the murder of Jonathan Luna-especially since CBS recently did a piece about witness intimidation where drug and murder cases are involved-and Philadelphia(my original home town) was one of the cities cited as actually doing someting about it. Maybe someone is trying to send a message that if they can't get to the witnesses they're going after the LE persons involved!

[bykerladi]

Its pretty hard to erase a hard drive - you have to have special programs and stuff that aren't available to the general public.

Or were they able to get info off the hard drive but are claiming they got nothing so they don't tip off the perps (whether its him or his murderers)?

[gatetrekker44]

is to simply drill a hole in it-this effectively renders the drive useless. And from what I could see there didn't appear to be any hole drilled into itget rid .
The only other way I know of to get rid of the info would be to expose the drive to a strong magnet. Are there any computer whiz kids out there who know more about this subject? :waitasec:

[izzyB]

thanks for the interesting computer posts. when these were discovered sometime ago i totally took LE at its word that there was no way to get anything from the hard drive. of course this was BEFORE we learned that they had not even interviewed some eye-witnesses and were not monitoring ray's bank account! and i do not believe a pic was made available to the public at the time, but i could be wrong on that. so i just assumed that LE was telling us the truth.

now here come posters that actually know something about hard drives and say "wait a minute".

i am more and more believeing in a LE cover-up of something. new life or drug king hit.

does anyone in the area know if the drug kings ray had just had the "presser" about right before he disappeared have had their trial by now and if so, what was the outcome?

[Lili]

I just posted a new article from the Centre Daily Times in the Media thread. One paragraph states:

"My jurisdiction goes up to the river," Yost said. "All that happened in my jurisdiction is he parked his car here. Now if someone threw (the laptop into the river) from the shoreline, it would be my jurisdiction. If it was thrown from the bridge, then it would be Pennsylvania State Police in Milton. So it kind of moves across jurisdictions pretty quickly."

Well, that laptop didn't just crawl into the river on it's own!

[bykerladi]

The magnet would have the be VERY powerful, a regular little magnet wouldn't work. I found some interesting threads on how to kill a hard drive:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=357507&hl=
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68372
http://www.neowin.net/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t349254.html
http://www.howtofixcomputers.com/bb/sutra158627.html

Needless to say, it appears that in order to destroy the DATA on a hard drive, you need to actively attempt to destroy it.

[Lili]

The trial just started for the dealer involved in the big drug bust just before Ray Gricar disappeared:

Trial opens for alleged leader of drug ring

Prosecutors call N.J. man 'major' dealer

By Pete Bosak

pbosak@centredaily.com (pbosak@centredaily.com)

BELLEFONTE -- The trial of a man prosecutors call a "major" dealer of crack cocaine and heroin throughout Centre County began Monday, the culmination of a years-long investigation of a drug ring allegedly led by 25-year-old Taji J. Lee.

Lee, of New Jersey, was indicted by a state grand jury last year on charges he distributed $1.5 million worth of heroin and cocaine through Centre County. He was arrested after an undercover officer arranged to purchase 400 baggies of heroin, worth about $7,500, from him.

...snip...
Defense attorney Ron McGlaughlin, in his opening statement, attacked the credibility of the prosecution's key informant, Kenyon Ebeling, saying that while she was working with police, she continued to use and sell heroin.

"I believe the jurors have to look at the police conduct in this case, to see if it falls to the level of entrapment," he said. "I believe the evidence shows that while she was working for police, she was dealing and using heroin. The case is in large part about the confidential informant."

The rest of the story:

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14644243.htm

[izzyB]

thanks for the update and link lili. i asked b/c i was wondering if anything "else" had happened to the prosecution team. IF ray's disappearance had been linked to this group, well what did it accomplish in the long-term. they may have gotten the man that indicted them, but they are still on trial now.

i really believe that ray has started a new life.

[christine2448]

does anyone in the area know if the drug kings ray had just had the "presser" about right before he disappeared have had their trial by now and if so, what was the outcome?
There is tons of information about the drug stuff going on and the supposed corruption at yardbird.com

[Lili]

:woohoo:
Ok, I got an email back, about the book open in Ray's office:
"Yes there is some truth to this. For the story, see tomorrow’s Centre Daily Times or read us on-line at www.centredaily.com.
I’ve been researching this and finally have the story ready for publication.

Thanks for reading,
Pete"
Thanks Pete!

[christine2448]

:woohoo:
Ok, I got an email back, about the book open in Ray's office:
"Yes there is some truth to this. For the story, see tomorrow’s Centre Daily Times or read us on-line at www.centredaily.com (http://www.centredaily.com/).
I’ve been researching this and finally have the story ready for publication.

Thanks for reading,
Pete"
Thanks Pete!
Great job Lili!!!!! Can't wait to read. I have been so busy...I could spend hours researching this stuff, just don't have time right now. I appreciate you posting links, contacting people for info, your awesome! Thanks again!:blowkiss:

[christine2448]

In yet another odd twist in the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar, his nephew confirmed Wednesday that a legal book containing information on replacing a district attorney was found on the desk of an assistant district attorney the day after Gricar vanished.

Assistant District Attorney Mark Smith, wondering where the book came from, grasped both covers and turned it upside down, in hopes of finding what page it had last been opened to, Tony Gricar said he was told by police.

The book opened to the statute detailing how to replace a dead or retired district attorney, Tony Gricar said.

With rumors about the book swirling through the courthouse and beyond this week, Tony Gricar said he'd placed a call to borough police to find out why the information, which he's known for some time, is coming out now.

MORE HERE (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/14664993.htmhttp://)

[christine2448]

Snip from Centerdailey.com midday report

NOW there's a book mystery in the Ray Gricar case. Read Pete Bosak's update today on a part of the probe that we're just finding out about.

We asked over the weekend what is next? Who thought it would be a book?

Of course, the police don't have to tell us anything, so they didn't in this case.

[izzyB]

if this indeed the case this just makes me think that ray was engineering his own disappearance.

[Hbgchick]

Well, as much as I hope this may be a clue as to where to find Ray (or his body) I have to say that he WAS planning on retiring at the end of his term. It could be that someone was innocently researching the procedure that they would all be going through anyway very soon.

[christine2448]

Well, as much as I hope this may be a clue as to where to find Ray (or his body) I have to say that he WAS planning on retiring at the end of his term. It could be that someone was innocently researching the procedure that they would all be going through anyway very soon.
Good point! LOL :doh: :doh: :doh: Didn't even cross my mind!

[Hbgchick]

Good point! LOL :doh: :doh: :doh: Didn't even cross my mind!
Lol...yeah. Like I say, I really wish it would turn up something, but am afraid it's unrelated to his disappearance.

[christine2448]

Lol...yeah. Like I say, I really wish it would turn up something, but am afraid it's unrelated to his disappearance.
Well, I was thinking maybe a PLANT now that all this stuff is going on...sometimes I just don't even think at all.

Thanks HB for smackin me in the face with that one :slap:

I just don't know where my head is sometimes! :crazy:

Glad you pointed it out, I agree....I don't think it's related to the disappearence, now that you so nicely reminded me he was retiring anyway...dang, I honestly didn't even piece the 2 together....LOL...that's why I am here sleuthing and not FBI or CIA or anything LMAO!

[Lili]

But it was an election year. A new DA would be elected.

In Pennsylvania our District Attorney is an elected official.

[christine2448]

But it was an election year. A new DA would be elected.

In Pennsylvania our District Attorney is an elected official.
Please, explain more what you mean?

I mean I understand, LOL, but, ok, spell it out, if elected then the book that was there is relevant, or not, or...#$%T, I'm tired! LOL. It's not computing. Give me some more honey LOL~

[izzyB]

But it was an election year. A new DA would be elected.

In Pennsylvania our District Attorney is an elected official.


lili: i had logged on to address this very issue. thank you for answering the first question i was going to ask. DA's are also elected in texas, and therefore if ray was planning to retire, he would most likely do so at the election cycle and just not run again, let someone else have a shot on the ballot. and that is my understanding of what was to happen in his case.

HOWEVER, if a DA left office when there was no election planned, there would be a procedure in place as to what would be done until or IF a special election could be held. i feel this situation is what the book was dealing with.

therefore, i still feel that the book could be a telling clue.

(a day or so before my mother died of a massive stroke, she put all kinds of things out on her dining room table: our dad's obituary, take out menus, family photos, etc....things that would not normally be on her table....but things she must have thought we would need if she were to die suddenly and everyone come into town in a state of shock, etc.....

all i am saying is that sometimes people will send subtle signals.)

[meliss]

Fox News Channel's "The Lineup" will feature another segment on the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar at 9 p.m. Saturday.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14677347.htm

[luthersmama]

lili: i had logged on to address this very issue. thank you for answering the first question i was going to ask. DA's are also elected in texas, and therefore if ray was planning to retire, he would most likely do so at the election cycle and just not run again, let someone else have a shot on the ballot. and that is my understanding of what was to happen in his case.

HOWEVER, if a DA left office when there was no election planned, there would be a procedure in place as to what would be done until or IF a special election could be held. i feel this situation is what the book was dealing with.

therefore, i still feel that the book could be a telling clue.

(a day or so before my mother died of a massive stroke, she put all kinds of things out on her dining room table: our dad's obituary, take out menus, family photos, etc....things that would not normally be on her table....but things she must have thought we would need if she were to die suddenly and everyone come into town in a state of shock, etc.....

all i am saying is that sometimes people will send subtle signals.)


I pulled out the book in question and took a look at it a few days ago.

When the office is vacated to due death, disability etc., the Governor appoints someone to fill the office until the next election.

Nothing exciting popped out. The section is only one paragraph long.

[wondering22]

Is it possible that the Feds put him and his lady friend in a highly secretive Witness Protection Program?

And... if that IS possible, then there'd really be no way to ever find that out, right?

[izzyB]

Is it possible that the Feds put him and his lady friend in a highly secretive Witness Protection Program?

And... if that IS possible, then there'd really be no way to ever find that out, right?


while speculating about this case over the past year, this possibility has been mentioned several times by posters. of course there would be no way to ever know.

[wondering22]

while speculating about this case over the past year, this possibility has been mentioned several times by posters. of course there would be no way to ever know.

You'd think that every LEO in the entire nation, at all levels of law enforcement would be interested in this case, but when you examine the actual investigation, it seems very lax & lazidaisical.

[Louisa]

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I haven't seen it on the threads.

The FBI Missing Persons Flyer for Ray--most of it is the usual stuff: height, weight, hair and eye color, etc.

Under "Remarks," there's this:

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray.

What do you all make of these names? Are they stage names Ray used when involved in community theater productions? Nom de plumes he used while writing some short stories? Something else less innocent?

And with the exception of women who have taken their husbands' names, how many people can say they "may also use the names . . ."?

I'm just fixated on this tonight. If it's old news, I apologize! I'm local to the Gricar case and have followed it with great interest (renewed interest with Bosak getting involved and the "elite"/CIA group's involvement).

I'm also in the process of entirely rethinking my stand on the case--which is to say before I had basically resolved that he'd met with foul play connected to his work. Now I'm having all sorts of doubts, or at the very least, rethinking to do.

This is turning out to be almost as perplexing as the Ramsey case. For Ray's family and friends, I would so much like to see answers.

Would like to hear your thoughts about these names!


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/gricar_rf.htm

[izzyB]

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray.

What do you all make of these names? Are they stage names Ray used when involved in community theater productions? Nom de plumes he used while writing some short stories? Something else less innocent?

And with the exception of women who have taken their husbands' names, how many people can say they "may also use the names . . ."?

I'm just fixated on this tonight. If it's old news, I apologize! I'm local to the Gricar case and have followed it with great interest (renewed interest with Bosak getting involved and the "elite"/CIA group's involvement).

I'm also in the process of entirely rethinking my stand on the case--which is to say before I had basically resolved that he'd met with foul play connected to his work. Now I'm having all sorts of doubts, or at the very least, rethinking to do.

This is turning out to be almost as perplexing as the Ramsey case. For Ray's family and friends, I would so much like to see answers.

Would like to hear your thoughts about these names!


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/gricar_rf.htm

hello louisa! this is the first i have heard of ray possibly using another name! but i have only followed the case here and while i try to read links to articles posted by the faithful in this case like lili and christine, i must confess that sometimes i am unable to. also missed the Dateline show due to a family "emergency", so others that read here may know about this.

i am like you, i have been all over the map on this case, but recently, with the eye-witness accounts some of us are just now hearing about, and the fact that LE seems to have done a half-investigation, and the fact that no body has turned up, i am back to believing that ray has gone off and started a new life.

sometimes people just snap.

[christine2448]

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I haven't seen it on the threads.

The FBI Missing Persons Flyer for Ray--most of it is the usual stuff: height, weight, hair and eye color, etc.

Under "Remarks," there's this:

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray.

What do you all make of these names? Are they stage names Ray used when involved in community theater productions? Nom de plumes he used while writing some short stories? Something else less innocent?

And with the exception of women who have taken their husbands' names, how many people can say they "may also use the names . . ."?

I'm just fixated on this tonight. If it's old news, I apologize! I'm local to the Gricar case and have followed it with great interest (renewed interest with Bosak getting involved and the "elite"/CIA group's involvement).

I'm also in the process of entirely rethinking my stand on the case--which is to say before I had basically resolved that he'd met with foul play connected to his work. Now I'm having all sorts of doubts, or at the very least, rethinking to do.

This is turning out to be almost as perplexing as the Ramsey case. For Ray's family and friends, I would so much like to see answers.

Would like to hear your thoughts about these names!


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/gricar_rf.htmThanks for the post, and obviously we all missed that, great observation.

Could mean something, could be nothin'....I wonder if he did some kinda undercover for something??? Drug cases....wouldn't that be odd for DA to do undercover? I'm not sure bout this, anyone?

I have never looked at this poster! I wonder...I just emailed mom and sis w/link to poster, to get their thoughts...odd indeed...why the 2 aliases?

[Louisa]

hello louisa! this is the first i have heard of ray possibly using another name! but i have only followed the case here and while i try to read links to articles posted by the faithful in this case like lili and christine, i must confess that sometimes i am unable to. also missed the Dateline show due to a family "emergency", so others that read here may know about this.

i am like you, i have been all over the map on this case, but recently, with the eye-witness accounts some of us are just now hearing about, and the fact that LE seems to have done a half-investigation, and the fact that no body has turned up, i am back to believing that ray has gone off and started a new life.

sometimes people just snap.Hi Izzy,
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad I wasn't bringing old news! BTW, you didn't miss anything, really. We were away for the day and hustled to be home by 8 p.m., then were sort of disappointed it was such a brief segment with so little information in it.

Like you, I am also, for a variety of reasons, back to giving more weight to the theory that he may have gone off and started a new life. With some of the new things we've learned lately, it's impossible any more to just accept the "lured to Lewisburg/death by foul play" theory, isn't it?

Have a good day!

[Louisa]

Thanks for the post, and obviously we all missed that, great observation.

Could mean something, could be nothin'....I wonder if he did some kinda undercover for something??? Drug cases....wouldn't that be odd for DA to do undercover? I'm not sure bout this, anyone?

I have never looked at this poster! I wonder...I just emailed mom and sis w/link to poster, to get their thoughts...odd indeed...why the 2 aliases?Hi Christine,

Thanks also for your reply. I'm so glad to see others interested in this case. Your idea about the undercover names is a great one--hadn't thought about that. Wondering though whether Ray's position ever had him doing actual investigative level work like that as opposed to say, a friend of ours who actually worked undercover as a DEA agent. Perhaps informally? It's a good explanation connected to his work. It would also explain how the FBI knows about this, too, perhaps. Would love to know more about those names. It's one of those "little things" that's gonna BUG me, I can tell . . .

Hope your mom and sis have some ideas, too!

[wondering22]

Under "Remarks," there's this:

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray.

What do you all make of these names? Are they stage names Ray used when involved in community theater productions? Nom de plumes he used while writing some short stories? Something else less innocent?

And with the exception of women who have taken their husbands' names, how many people can say they "may also use the names . . ."?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/gricar_rf.htm



omigawd...

[Gozgals]

Thanks for the post, and obviously we all missed that, great observation.

Could mean something, could be nothin'....I wonder if he did some kinda undercover for something??? Drug cases....wouldn't that be odd for DA to do undercover? I'm not sure bout this, anyone?

I have never looked at this poster! I wonder...I just emailed mom and sis w/link to poster, to get their thoughts...odd indeed...why the 2 aliases?
First off, thanks for keeping Ray alive Christine and all of you here. Not a day goes by that he and his family are not in my thoughts, and this case.

I too never noticed the names on the poster. Great observation! Maybe it was part of his job to use the names, I'm not sure either. I'm skeptical about the undercover/ CIA connections though.

I'm starting to go back to one of my theories that maybe Ray is in a Witness Protection Program. This case gets stranger and stranger as it goes on. Originally, I was sure he met with foul play-- (J. Luna) example-- as a case I relate Ray's case too, the drug cases worked on.

My hopes are we can find the answers soon and the media coverage gives us more than the pittance they have as of late.

Good day all,
Goz

[Louisa]

Hello again! It's not much, but I was able to find that Pete Bosak actually responded to a question about the names on the FBI flyer on 5/11 in the CDT Q&A section. Here's the relevant part of his response:

Ray Gricar's aliases are listed on his FBI missing persons file as Ray Lange and Ray Gray. The maiden name of Gricar's first wife is Gray. The maiden name of his second wife, is Lange. The lead investigator tells me that, what he believes happened, is that over the years, Gricar's first name was somehow linked to his wives' maiden names in credit reports, etc. Bellefonte Police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, the lead investigator on the case, tells me he has not found any instances of Ray actually using an alias.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=8

I'm not terribly satisfied with the explanation he's been given by the lead investigator, because if Det. Z has found no instances of Ray actually using an alias, and it was just a paperwork mess up, then why would the FBI flyer just casually state that he "might" be using either of those names? It seems like a sloppy thing for the FBI to do, but them maybe I'm just letting this case drive me nuts when I think about it too much!

[christine2448]

Hello again! It's not much, but I was able to find that Pete Bosak actually responded to a question about the names on the FBI flyer on 5/11 in the CDT Q&A section. Here's the relevant part of his response:


http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=8

I'm not terribly satisfied with the explanation he's been given by the lead investigator, because if Det. Z has found no instances of Ray actually using an alias, and it was just a paperwork mess up, then why would the FBI flyer just casually state that he "might" be using either of those names? It seems like a sloppy thing for the FBI to do, but them maybe I'm just letting this case drive me nuts when I think about it too much!
Good sleuthin there Louisa, thanks for the info, very interesting!

[izzyB]

Hello again! It's not much, but I was able to find that Pete Bosak actually responded to a question about the names on the FBI flyer on 5/11 in the CDT Q&A section. Here's the relevant part of his response:


http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html?forumId=1882&mode=display&action=&type=list&pageNo=8

I'm not terribly satisfied with the explanation he's been given by the lead investigator, because if Det. Z has found no instances of Ray actually using an alias, and it was just a paperwork mess up, then why would the FBI flyer just casually state that he "might" be using either of those names? It seems like a sloppy thing for the FBI to do, but them maybe I'm just letting this case drive me nuts when I think about it too much!


thanks for this report louisa and i agree with you....poor poor explanation. mr. izzyB and i have applied for about 10 house, car, business loans over the lifetime of our 30 year marriage and yet if he went missing today i can promise you that no one would be looking for him under my maiden name. :snooty: ...or his mother's maiden name, or my mother's, etc.

IMHO only, this is a lame excuse for more going on behind the scenes than LE is willing to divulge to the public....could we once again use the phrase cover-up?

[Hbgchick]

Agreed IzzyB! I can't think of any reason my husband would use my maiden name, or even be "linked" to it. What do you think Louisa21? :D

[christine2448]

thanks for this report louisa and i agree with you....poor poor explanation. mr. izzyB and i have applied for about 10 house, car, business loans over the lifetime of our 30 year marriage and yet if he went missing today i can promise you that no one would be looking for him under my maiden name. :snooty: ...or his mother's maiden name, or my mother's, etc.

IMHO only, this is a lame excuse for more going on behind the scenes than LE is willing to divulge to the public....could we once again use the phrase cover-up?
Yep, makes no sense to me either. But was interesting to find out where the names came from, if that's even the truth!

[Louisa]

Agreed IzzyB! I can't think of any reason my husband would use my maiden name, or even be "linked" to it. What do you think Louisa21? :D
You l'il razzer, Chickie. Check your email for an explanation of why I'm not registered here by the name you usually know me as! Too much confusion, otherwise!

Anyway, back to the other folks. Let me admit here that before I found Bosak's 5/11 response, I Q&A'd him about the names, and he answered in today's CDT.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/special_packages/ray_gricar/qa_forum.html



A It has been answered before, but no problem. Ray has aliases listed on his official FBI missing poster. But these are easily explained. In credit reports, his name somehow became tied to the maiden names of his two former wives. This was more of an error by credit bureaus that anything. Ray never used an alias.
Pete Bosak 6/01/06
I appreciate Bosak's response. However, I don't find this "easily explained," and I still believe the FBI has not been careless in its wording or content on the flyer. Local LE may say that RG never used an alias, but the FBI has some reason for choosing to put that particular item on the flyer, and I am not at this point content with thinking it has to do with some paperwork snafu over credit lending issues.

I emailed Bosak privately with these thoughts but haven't received a response to that email and don't really expect I'll hear from him. Sigh.

Just my two cents.

[lymom3]

How long has he been divorced from the 2 ex wives? Credit doesn't stay on your file forever. I work in an industry where I use credit bureaus every day. Names, social security numbers and addresses can easily get cross referenced. I see it all the time. However, even if that was an issue at some point, I have a hard time swallowing that it still could be years later.

[Bobbisangel]

I just wonder if Ray didn't fear for his life and he didn't get the support that he thought he would from the FBI or whoever handles the Witness Protection Program. Maybe he decided on his own to disappear to protect himself. Maybe the lady at the shops was helping him along with the man who came to the car window on her side of his car. I also think that he may have had someone throw his laptop in the river but took the hard drive to copy it into a new computer and then the same person may have held on to it after he was done with it and threw it in the river at a later time.

If he is in a Witness Protection Program they would give him a name and ID that no one would ever connect with him. It wouldn't be his ex's maiden names....that is for sure. Maybe the FBI added those names just to throw people off. If he is in a Witness Protection Program the FBI would have no choice but to go along with an investigation because they wouldn't be able to tell LE or anyone else where Ray really is if his life is in danger. They would just do a half azz job of it.

[izzyB]

well bobbi, the theory you advance is certainly credible and would explain a lot about what appears to be an incomplete investigation by LE.

i am not sure whether or not family is informed when someone enters the witness protection program. and once you are in the witness protection program, what do you owe the government? do you owe them testimony in later court cases, with the protected being in disguise. or does someone enter the program b/c "they know too much" but never owe any testimony to the feds who are spending a bundle to house, feed, protect the witness. is the threat of death from drug kingpins enough to get a DA in the witness protection program? it would seem that kind of thing kind of came with the territory.

[TallCoolOne]

Well, this isn't exactly the same thing but very close and just had to say this. A year ago my husband and I were struggling financially in a bad way and we almost lost our home in foreclosure. The legal paperwork issued during this time was sent out using all the known names I have ever gone under (maiden name, name from first marriage, name from current marriage and also with the last name of an ex-boyfriend from 12 years ago to whom I was never married and there would have been no reason what so ever for my last name to be associated with him. It does happen. I was pretty shocked actually to see my name associated with his. It should never have been, but yet here it was in black and white. For no reason I can figure.

So yes, it is possible. Goofy things can happen with credit bureau reporting.

[Louisa]

How long has he been divorced from the 2 ex wives? Credit doesn't stay on your file forever. I work in an industry where I use credit bureaus every day. Names, social security numbers and addresses can easily get cross referenced. I see it all the time. However, even if that was an issue at some point, I have a hard time swallowing that it still could be years later.
lymom3, I dug around to try to find out how long ago the divorces were. As far as I can tell, the first marriage ended in the early '90's and the second marriage in early 2001. Since you're in an industry where you might know something about this, do you think 4 years (2001-2005) would be sufficient time to have the second ex-wife's name "unlinked" from his? How about 14 years more or less for the first wife's?

[izzyB]

i think this new phychic show on CTV has been mentioned on this thread as one of their up-coming shows will deal with ray.

yesterday on CC (i was watching as she is on verdict-watch in the susan polk case) she talked about this new show with the psychics. at the end of their segment, CC asked one of them about the ray gricar case, as CC saiid she was very interested in the case (for obvious reasons, she was an ADA here in dallas before becoming a judge).

anyway, and this is the point, the female psychic answers did not much make sense to me. she used some adjective to describe her intense feelings when she was i guess at the river....and for the life of me i cannot remember it as by this time i had wandered in the other room and about tripped over myself getting back in front of the TV when i heard the name "gricar". but what i did get was her saying "it is a dangerous place to live" for the people who live there.(?) CC made no follow-up comment to that remark.

so i guess we will have to keep a look-out to see exactly when this show profile's gricar.

[Louisa]

i think this new phychic show on CTV has been mentioned on this thread as one of their up-coming shows will deal with ray.

yesterday on CC (i was watching as she is on verdict-watch in the susan polk case) she talked about this new show with the psychics. at the end of their segment, CC asked one of them about the ray gricar case, as CC saiid she was very interested in the case (for obvious reasons, she was an ADA here in dallas before becoming a judge).

anyway, and this is the point, the female psychic answers did not much make sense to me. she used some adjective to describe her intense feelings when she was i guess at the river....and for the life of me i cannot remember it as by this time i had wandered in the other room and about tripped over myself getting back in front of the TV when i heard the name "gricar". but what i did get was her saying "it is a dangerous place to live" for the people who live there.(?) CC made no follow-up comment to that remark.

so i guess we will have to keep a look-out to see exactly when this show profile's gricar.Hi Izzy,

I believe the "Haunting Evidence" Court TV segment on Ray with psychic Carla Baron is scheduled to run on June 21st at 10:30 p.m.

Now if I were a good little poster, I should probably leave my comment at that, but I feel as if I need to go a step further. Will try to be "fair and balanced" as I'm able to be.

Let me preface this by saying I'm really open to psychic phenomena and a big believer in some psychics. John Edward is one example of someone I really trust. I know that psychics have aided LE in many, many cases.

That said, opinions of CB even among believers are quite divided. There's quite a contingent of CB fans. There are also many pro-psychic people who have some genuine reservations about CB and questions about her motives. I won't go further.

Just wanted to put that out there so that people might do their own investigating before watching Haunting Evidence if they so desire.

[MaGruff31]

This is my first post and I am thrilled to be a part of this amazing website. I have become addicted to this site since the Laci Peterson case and finally deciced to post. I think you all offer so many interesting points of view. I also didnt realize just how many people are missing with so few answers. It breaks my heart everyday but somehow I feel what you all do here truly makes a difference. Also you just never know what can happen.

In regards to the Ray Gricar case, I have felt that he is alive from the beginning. The reason is that he went for a drive that day and if it was a crime from a drug related case how ould they know where he would be that day, so far from the courthouse and his home. I think they would have been following him and he would have suspected something since it is a small antique store he was in. It just doesnt add up to me for some reason. It almost looked to staged.

[christine2448]

This is my first post and I am thrilled to be a part of this amazing website. I have become addicted to this site since the Laci Peterson case and finally deciced to post. I think you all offer so many interesting points of view. I also didnt realize just how many people are missing with so few answers. It breaks my heart everyday but somehow I feel what you all do here truly makes a difference. Also you just never know what can happen.

In regards to the Ray Gricar case, I have felt that he is alive from the beginning. The reason is that he went for a drive that day and if it was a crime from a drug related case how ould they know where he would be that day, so far from the courthouse and his home. I think they would have been following him and he would have suspected something since it is a small antique store he was in. It just doesnt add up to me for some reason. It almost looked to staged.Hiya MaGruff31....welcome to posting at WS!!!! Thanks for your input.

What you say about the drive, I think he went to meet someone, maybe was threatened to meet up with someone, in relation to the drug case he was getting ready to prosecute, or maybe they threatened his gf, coworkers, or family if he didn't meet with them? The ciggy ashes, the construction type worker and the mysterious woman...either were involved in kidnapping/killing him, or with his getaway to start a new life......again, I think if he started a new life, it has to do with this case, I just can't shake that.....maybe he had to disappear?

Ohhhh, so many scenarios, I just wish we could find him. Dead or Alive, his poor family needs answers...unless they really know what's going on?

I am not local to this anymore, and am not sure what kinda fuss they, the family, are putting up...I know Tony was mentioned a few times in articles recently...saying he wants more done, investigation shabby, was it shabby on purpose, does LE know why he disappeared......things started heating up for a few days....new team coming in to investigate....all false? They know where he really is, he had to assume new identity?

Sorry, ya'll, just talking to myself here really....thinking. I started out by saying "I think this"...then went to that and this and that....who knows?

Where are you RAY?????

[tennessee]

Just my personal opinion but think that he is in the WPP. I think that the lady in the antique store might have been providing him with details he needed for his new life. Same with the construction worker.

[christine2448]

Hey ya'll...I started a thread for everyone to post what they think happened to Ray...you can see it here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40396

[Louisa]

Just my personal opinion but think that he is in the WPP. I think that the lady in the antique store might have been providing him with details he needed for his new life. Same with the construction worker.
Just my humble opinion, but I think the best argument against the Witness Protection Program is the huge expenditure of man hours and money that's been put into searching for Ray. I've read some about WPP and saw a great documentary on TLC or Discovery Channel, and it seems as if there are ways the program has to avoid such huge expenditures, such as making it look as if the person has been killed or as if he/she committed suicide.

Who knows? Could be. But I put that one way down my list. My opinion only, of course.

[luthersmama]

Just my personal opinion but think that he is in the WPP. I think that the lady in the antique store might have been providing him with details he needed for his new life. Same with the construction worker.


But what would he have been a witness to? For him to need to go underground, it would have to be something other than the kind of routine cases he prosecuted. Prosecutors are always in danger - it is part of the job. They don't go into protection because of ordinary cases or even big drug cases. He would have to be a witness to some kind of big corruption case involving the law enforcement community or county government or something.

I have heard nothing whatsoever about any such case pending in that area. What could he possibly know? That the county commissioners are stealing money? That the sheriff is crooked? There is no whiff of anything like that.

[christine2448]

He would have to be a witness to some kind of big corruption case involving the law enforcement community or county government or something.

I have heard nothing whatsoever about any such case pending in that area. What could he possibly know? That the county commissioners are stealing money? That the sheriff is crooked? There is no whiff of anything like that.
In earlier posts, somewhere on this forum, I posted pertaining to investigations done by yardbird.com you can see all the corruption that is going on in the areas govt etc. Here is the link, interesting reading IMO. about Jonathan Luna and Ray Gricar http://www.yardbird.com/luna.htm

[luthersmama]

In earlier posts, somewhere on this forum, I posted pertaining to investigations done by yardbird.com you can see all the corruption that is going on in the areas govt etc. Here is the link, interesting reading IMO. about Jonathan Luna and Ray Gricar http://www.yardbird.com/luna.htm


That site seems to insist there is some connection between Luna and Gricar, but doesn't reall tell me anything about why Gricar might have gone into the Witness protection program.

Luna was a federal prosecutor in Baltimore. Gricar a county prosecutor in PA. They didn't work in the same court systems at all. They were hundreds of miles apart.

I still don't have any clue as to why Gricar would need protection from the witness protection program.

[christine2448]

That site seems to insist there is some connection between Luna and Gricar, but doesn't reall tell me anything about why Gricar might have gone into the Witness protection program.

Luna was a federal prosecutor in Baltimore. Gricar a county prosecutor in PA. They didn't work in the same court systems at all. They were hundreds of miles apart.

I still don't have any clue as to why Gricar would need protection from the witness protection program.Hiya Luthersmama, thanks for the post.....

I don't have time to research right now, but here is one of the connections of the 2 cases:



Luna had mysteriously vanished from his desk in the federal courthouse in Baltimore, Maryland, the night before. AUSA Luna had been working late on a troubled plea agreement involving violent, inter-state drug trafficking.

Some sixteen months later, on April 17, 2005, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar vanished without a trace under equally mysterious circumstances outside of Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. Shortly before his death, DA Gricar had announced the biggest inter-state drug investigation in the history of his county. (http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_another_missing_PA_prosecutor_1.htm)

[luthersmama]

Hiya Luthersmama, thanks for the post.....

I don't have time to research right now, but here is one of the connections of the 2 cases:



Luna had mysteriously vanished from his desk in the federal courthouse in Baltimore, Maryland, the night before. AUSA Luna had been working late on a troubled plea agreement involving violent, inter-state drug trafficking.

Some sixteen months later, on April 17, 2005, Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar vanished without a trace under equally mysterious circumstances outside of Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. Shortly before his death, DA Gricar had announced the biggest inter-state drug investigation in the history of his county. (http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_another_missing_PA_prosecutor_1.htm)


Right. I understand the parallels in the two guys' lives, but I don't believe there is a connection.

Either way, though, prosecutors don't go into witness protection programs unless they are witnesses to something. Gricar prosecuted lots of drug cases. Most prosecutors do. That does not lead to a need to go hide out from everybody. The risk of death threats and the like is normal in that job.

Let's say there was a big city official bribery case or something and Ray was in the capacity of a witness. Then maybe there would be a reason to go into hiding. But there is NOTHING. Just his routine drug stuff. Nothing about police corruption, nothing about missing money, politics, mafia...NOTHING.

Prosecutors don't go into hiding because of cases they are prosecuting.

I just can't buy into the witness protection program theory without some evidence that he was a witness to something big.

[tennessee]

It might be hard to find evidence he was witness to something big. We wouldn't be privy to that kind of information.

I once knew a person who went into the witness protection program. This man disappeared in the middle of the night and has not been heard from since. He was single but he did have to end communication with friends and family. He was in a position similar to Gricar's. I only know because I was in a long term relationship with someone who was part of the investigation.

Until we have something concrete, any idea is plausible. We can't prove he is alive or dead.

[christine2448]

Until we have something concrete, any idea is plausible. We can't prove he is alive or dead.
I agree with this statement...I am not at all for the WPP theory, but, having to disappear and assume a new identity, to protect his family, friends, etc...possible...just run away, found love, felt to closed in with Patti, not believable to me....murdered, very possible.

[christine2448]

I just can't buy into the witness protection program theory without some evidence that he was a witness to something big.
I agree with you...I'm not one that is leaning towards this scenario.

I wish I had more time to read, research...it's frustrating when you want so badly to learn information but just don't have the time!

[Louisa]

I agree with you...I'm not one that is leaning towards this scenario.

I wish I had more time to read, research...it's frustrating when you want so badly to learn information but just don't have the time!
On the other hand, if you have the time to research, you'll find that your frustration will grow for other reasons! The minute details--at least the ones you'll be able to gather from the available media--will literally drive you crazy in this case.

Why is there one interview with Det. Z in which he says Ray went to Huntingdon to Lake Raystown on Thursday afternoon, April 14, yet we see that account nowhere else in any press? (Did Ray "play hooky" from work that afternoon or not? That's important.)

Why do some accounts of the cigarette ash say there were such trace amounts that someone might have brought them in on a shoe and that there was a faint smell of smoke in the car, yet another account says the Mini smelled of smoke so much that initially LE thought Ray might have gone off for the weekend on a sort of party/bender?

Why do PF's accounts of Friday morning vary significantly? Sometimes Ray is asleep when she leaves and she leaves him a note saying to call if he's going anywhere so she can come home and take care of the dog. Sometimes they go through their "morning routine together" and discuss the dog care in a conversation.

Why does a man making $129,000 a year, who doesn't own a house, who doesn't owe alimony payments to ex-wives, who lives a frugal lifestyle, who doesn't have investments, have only $100,000 in the bank? Shouldn't there be more money somewhere?

Those are just four right off the top of my head to illustrate that having the time will only drive you crazier, LOL!

[luthersmama]

)


<snip>

Why does a man making $129,000 a year, who doesn't own a house, who doesn't owe alimony payments to ex-wives, who lives a frugal lifestyle, who doesn't have investments, have only $100,000 in the bank? Shouldn't there be more money somewhere?

Those are just four right off the top of my head to illustrate that having the time will only drive you crazier, LOL!


For me, if this financial information is true, it suggests that he had set up an alternate identity long ago and had decided that it was time to take off.
He probably moved money to off-shore accounts over years and years and is now sitting on a beach, far far away from his old life.

[christine2448]

For me, if this financial information is true, it suggests that he had set up an alternate identity long ago and had decided that it was time to take off.
He probably moved money to off-shore accounts over years and years and is now sitting on a beach, far far away from his old life.
As much as I don't want to believe it, it really does make so much more sense then anything else we have come up with so far...IMO anyway.

[Hbgchick]

[QUOTE=Louisa]Why do PF's accounts of Friday morning vary significantly? Sometimes Ray is asleep when she leaves and she leaves him a note saying to call if he's going anywhere so she can come home and take care of the dog. Sometimes they go through their "morning routine together" and discuss the dog care in a conversation.

Why does a man making $129,000 a year, who doesn't own a house, who doesn't owe alimony payments to ex-wives, who lives a frugal lifestyle, who doesn't have investments, have only $100,000 in the bank? Shouldn't there be more money somewhere?[QUOTE]

These are the two that get me. Which version of PF's story is true? Where is all of his money?

This question may have been asked, but does anyone know if PF ever smoked? I know she didn't normally, and she also says that Ray would NEVER, EVER, EVER (she stresses this almost too much, if you ask me) let someone smoke in his car. However, as a reformed smoker myself, I know that sometimes ex-smokers can light up again in times of stress (or maybe panic). And if a person did happen to slip up, perhaps it would be prudent to for that person to be sure that LE knew that they knew that smoking was not permitted in Ray's car, as in "certainly I would never think to smoke in it".?

Louisa - we haven't thought of that one yet! Lol. Just throwing ideas out there, but the smoke thing bothers me too.

[Hbgchick]

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14836948.htm


Gricar probe files turned over to state police

By Mike Joseph

mjoseph@centredaily.com (mjoseph@centredaily.com)

BELLEFONTE -- Borough police this week turned over all their files on missing prosecutor Ray Gricar to a state police team that will investigate their investigation.

The state police Criminal Investigative Analysis team for western Pennsylvania, based in Bedford, took possession of a banker's box full of Bellefonte police paperwork at 9 a.m. Thursday to begin a six-week study of the entire case, police chief Shawn Weaver said Friday.

At the end of July, the state police team will have prepared a PowerPoint presentation and will use it as the basis for question-and-answer session with Bellefonte police and all other Gricar investigators, Weaver said.

"They could give us some possible avenues (of further investigation) or some insight," Weaver said.

Gricar, Centre County's district attorney for 20 years, vanished on April 15, 2005, eight months before he planned to retire, and hasn't been heard from since.

Weaver and detective Darrel Zaccagni said Friday that police in Minnesota and Michigan investigated two supposed sightings of Gricar last month -- a month of extensive national coverage of the disappearance -- to no avail.

In Minnesota on Mother's Day, May 14, a woman thought she saw Gricar dining in a restaurant with a woman, but the man turned out to be a dentist who has been well known to the community for 20 years, Weaver said.

In Grand Rapids, Mich., the following week, someone mistook a greeter in a Wal-Mart store for Gricar and called Bellefonte police. "It was a person that matched Ray's description, but he had been working there several years," Weaver said.

In both cases, Weaver said, Bellefonte took the initial reports from witnesses and relayed the information to Minnesota and Michigan authorities, who found and spoke to the targeted man and came away satisfied he wasn't Gricar.

"It comes and goes in spurts," Weaver said. "It seems that every time there's national coverage, it tends to generate a lot of interest and calls. Unfortunately, they haven't panned out."

[altruist1000]

History rewritten?

Dateline Report indicated that Ray Gricar had been living with his GF for 3 years. My recollection is that this "couple" was dating for 3 years & had been living together for 14 months.

Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him" a few seconds pause "Now I don't know where he is" Really?

Was DNA extracted from the 2 cigarette butts outside the mini van? Were all possibilities considered or only KNOWN criminals?

[Louisa]

History rewritten?

Dateline Report indicated that Ray Gricar had been living with his GF for 3 years. My recollection is that this "couple" was dating for 3 years & had been living together for 14 months.

Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him" a few seconds pause "Now I don't know where he is" Really?

Was DNA extracted from the 2 cigarette butts outside the mini van? Were all possibilities considered or only KNOWN criminals?
Hi Altruist,

When I was digging around trying to firm up for myself the PF/RG timeline, I kept getting August 2001 as a start point for their dating relationship. May or may not be accurate, but I haven't heard any real dispute on that as a starting point. The "living together" timeline seems more fluid and disputable. I've read in an article somewhere (can't remember offhand) that RG had moved in with PF by February (?) 2002. The month may not be exact, but it was late winter 2002. Elsewhere I've heard from posters they lived together 18 months, now from you 14 months. Some of that discrepancy may be that the nature of "living together" can evolve slowly over time as opposed to "getting married" which has a specific date of occurrence. Who knows?

What we do know is that their relationship was less than 4 years old on the day he disappeared.

Per your post above: Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him"

I caught this replayed on Dan Abrams the other night--had just flipped channels and didn't even realize they were replaying. Dang it! But hearing that statement, something in the tone and emphasis of words really struck me. Wish I had that clip on tape to replay and listen to again. . . . Good catch, altruist. What do you make of it?

[altruist1000]

Hi Altruist,

When I was digging around trying to firm up for myself the PF/RG timeline, I kept getting August 2001 as a start point for their dating relationship. May or may not be accurate, but I haven't heard any real dispute on that as a starting point. The "living together" timeline seems more fluid and disputable. I've read in an article somewhere (can't remember offhand) that RG had moved in with PF by February (?) 2002. The month may not be exact, but it was late winter 2002. Elsewhere I've heard from posters they lived together 18 months, now from you 14 months. Some of that discrepancy may be that the nature of "living together" can evolve slowly over time as opposed to "getting married" which has a specific date of occurrence. Who knows?

What we do know is that their relationship was less than 4 years old on the day he disappeared.

Per your post above: Another statement that was interesting was "I just wanted to be with him"

I caught this replayed on Dan Abrams the other night--had just flipped channels and didn't even realize they were replaying. Dang it! But hearing that statement, something in the tone and emphasis of words really struck me. Wish I had that clip on tape to replay and listen to again. . . . Good catch, altruist. What do you make of it?

My initial suspicions pointed in the domestic violence direction & continue to. There is something very wrong in this case & the investigation that ensued. To me this disappearance speaks volumes of vindictiveness. It may be too late but I do have hope that now that outsider's of the area are reviewing the case that the obvious is properly investigated. The person most likely to have committed foul play against Mr. Gricar was very close but due to their employment history & connections was dismissed as the viable suspect, then 3 months later was requested to take a lie detector test. This was a large error as there was time to prepare & as we all know these tests can be fooled even when administered in a timely manner, by a personality that is able to detach & has assistance. My suspicions are based on personal observation of human behavior & there are some personalities that after previous rejections commit to never suffer another one & that is what I believe happened in this case. It is much more appealing to be a victim of suspected crime than a rejected partner & who knows this better than a former victim's advocate. There are some in our society that interpret a mismatch improperly as a statement of personal failings rather than what it is a mismatch. There are many amongst us who have instability issues that go undiagnosed for the ability of those suffering to mask their personal demons.

I will also admit that a personal relationship, IMO should have prevented the transfer into the SO's Department of Responsibility & to me signifies disrespect for Mr. Gricar & importance of self interest to control & be ever present.

All of the above represents my personal opinion & is also contingent upon my belief that the investigation was absent of objectivity by what was released to the public by the investigating authority of Bellefonte.

[christine2448]

OK...I have been thinking today about Ray...and a few things are in my mind..I have an awful memory, can someone help me with this? :confused:


1. Still no sunglasses or Keys found right?
2. Did we ever find out about the cup of flowers found near his car..I don't remember?
3. What about the cassette tape that was found? What came of that?
4. Who all had LDT tests relating to this?
Edit to Add
5. They found a cell phone in the car, county issued...did he have a personal cell phone, if so, still missing?

[Louisa]

OK...I have been thinking today about Ray...and a few things are in my mind..I have an awful memory, can someone help me with this? :confused:


1. Still no sunglasses or Keys found right?
2. Did we ever find out about the cup of flowers found near his car..I don't remember?
3. What about the cassette tape that was found? What came of that?
4. Who all had LDT tests relating to this?
Edit to Add
5. They found a cell phone in the car, county issued...did he have a personal cell phone, if so, still missing?
Hi Christine,

I can't get my mind off Ray today either. Here's what I think I know about your questions:

1. Right--still no sunglasses or keys. (Even early on, that kind of tipped me toward a maybe-not-suicide theory, since it seemed less likely Ray would take his keys and wear his sunglasses to go off and commit suicide. With 14 months and no body/no suicide note found, that seems even more likely to be so.)

2. From a poster on another board with pretty clear evidence he's "inside" the investigation--LE determined the flowers were apparently placed there by a woman Ray had helped in remembrance of him.

3. Can't provide a link for you, but I remember reading in the media that the cassette was determined to have no connection to the Gricar case. I forget what was on it, but media reports at the time were that it was a "nothing."

4. I believe the only polygraphs (at least the only ones we know of in the public) are PF and LG.

5. Help me out here, Christine. I don't remember that it was determined the cell phone was county-issued, but you could be right on that. Is that verified? It would make sense. I do remember PF saying that RG didn't always take it with him physically if they were travelling and stopped somewhere, as in, if they stopped at a restaurant, he might not take it inside and would leave the cell phone in the car while they ate. This was in conjunction with explaining that it wasn't all that odd that the cell phone remained in the Mini when it was found. So, bottom line--I can't answer your question #5! :confused:

On a side note, I pulled into a Sheetz market tonight to pick up some milk, and there was a red and white Mini-Cooper parked in front! What a spooky feeling looking at it shine under the lights in front of the store. . . . I almost half expected Ray to get out of it. If only it were that easy.

[izzyB]

Hi Christine,

2. From a poster on another board with pretty clear evidence he's "inside" the investigation--LE determined the flowers were apparently placed there by a woman Ray had helped in remembrance of him.




this almost certainly cannot be,as those flowers were found within 24 hours of the mini-cooper if memory serves and i will try and go back to our very first thread a year ago. these flowers in a glass "juice jar" were found down by the river the very weekend he disappeared and still looked fairly fresh.

so i doubt that many would even be aware that he was missing by the time these flowers were found by LE, let alone needing a "memorial tribute" b/c early on no one knew how long this would last let alone the outcome.

[christine2448]

Pa. state police start their examination of Gricar case (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14843462.htm)


Borough police have turned over all their files on missing former prosecutor Ray Gricar to a state police team that will probe their investigation.
The state police's criminal investigative analysis team for western Pennsylvania, based in Bedford, took possession of a banker's box full of Bellefonte police paperwork at 9 a.m. Thursday to begin a six-week study of the case, Bellefonte police chief Shawn Weaver said Friday.

At the end of July, state police will discuss their findings with Bellefonte authorities and other Gricar investigators, Weaver said.

[Louisa]

this almost certainly cannot be,as those flowers were found within 24 hours of the mini-cooper if memory serves and i will try and go back to our very first thread a year ago. these flowers in a glass "juice jar" were found down by the river the very weekend he disappeared and still looked fairly fresh.

so i doubt that many would even be aware that he was missing by the time these flowers were found by LE, let alone needing a "memorial tribute" b/c early on no one knew how long this would last let alone the outcome.
Izzy,

Good catch! I was just reporting what this "insider" said regarding LE's take on the flowers. I should clarify, though, that it wasn't necessarily a "memorial" as in "we know Ray's dead" or anything. Maybe "tribute" would have been a more accurate word for me to use. I know that media reports were everywhere by Monday, April 17 that Ray was missing. Do you know for certain that the flowers were placed there that weekend? Does anyone know when the earliest public report of his disappearance was?

Of course, word must have spread via word-of-mouth pretty quickly even without published reports, I would think, from the inner circle outward. If the flowers were truly as LE said, from a woman that Ray helped in a professional capacity, I can envision that word of his disappearance might have reached her ears via the grapevine even before media made the disappearance public. It's not as if Bellefonte is a big city or anything . . .

Just my speculation . . .

[Hbgchick]

Was the juice glass dusted for fingerprints?

Who would put them there? RG himself? If it were him, that would certainly point to suicide or voluntary disappearance, right? Was it a particular sort of flower that could have been a "sign" or "signal" to PF or LG?

Could PF or LG have put them there? Maybe, but if it were either of them why wouldn't they just say so?

Was it simply a tribute from someone who knew RG?

I wonder if somebody did come to LE (when it was reported that the flowers were found) and said "hey, that was me. I put them there as a tribute to RG". That's what I'd do, if I had put a tribute there and LE was wondering why they were there I'd just tell them it was me, you know?

[izzyB]

i had a long and busy day and was not able to get to the first archived thread as i had hoped. i believe these flowers were down by the river that very weekend he went missing. i think (???) that LE discounted these from the beginning, so they were probably not dusted for finger prints. if patti got the car back in barely a week, i doubt they went to much trouble with this jar of fresh flowers. i will try and research this tomorrow. izzyB

[izzyB]

OK. i went back to our very first thread. post no. 23 gives a link to a newspaper article no longer available. in my post, no. 24, i mention the yellow flowers that had been mentioned in that article. websleuths dates this post as 4/18, which is 3 days after ray went missing. for the article to have been published in the paper on that day, the 18th let's say, the reporter would have at least have to have had the info by the 17th.

i will contend that 2 days is too early for any "friend" of ray to put flowers by a river where no one even knows for sure he was at, and just b/c the car was found on the day of the 16th, two blocks from the river, you still will never convince me that those flowers found at the latest on the 17th were from a friend of ray's as a "rememberance tribute".

no, they were probably from a picnic, innocent, or involving ray. my opinions only of course.

[izzyB]

overnight i thought more about the flowers and i now believe this was mentioned in that article published on or before 4/18/05, as something the police came up on when they first searched the river right after ray was reported missing. so those flowers were there even before the police first were on the scene there, and one has to think that very little publicity had gone out about the case.

at the time we wondered if perhaps ray had took some flowers there himself and sat for a while before jumping to his death.

for LE to dismiss this as a friend of ray's if wrong IMHO. it makes more sense that it was someone's picnic.

but the other thing i find interesting is the car that was stolen from the dealership, was it the saturday (24 hours) after ray's disappearance. was that ever solved? i remember that car theft was unusual in that area.

[christine2448]

overnight i thought more about the flowers and i now believe this was mentioned in that article published on or before 4/18/05, as something the police came up on when they first searched the river right after ray was reported missing. so those flowers were there even before the police first were on the scene there, and one has to think that very little publicity had gone out about the case.

at the time we wondered if perhaps ray had took some flowers there himself and sat for a while before jumping to his death.

for LE to dismiss this as a friend of ray's if wrong IMHO. it makes more sense that it was someone's picnic.

but the other thing i find interesting is the car that was stolen from the dealership, was it the saturday (24 hours) after ray's disappearance. was that ever solved? i remember that car theft was unusual in that area.

Ok, Izzy, you are rereading I was the other day, LOL....and I remembered the flowers, but forgot what the outcome was...so we never had an outcome on the flowers on WS? If so, I couldn't find it.

I am going to research this some more, maybe check the Q&A on Center Daily and if can't find there I 'll send this question in.

I remember the car theft too, isn't it amazing, we are on one thing, then move on and forgot about the other things, like the flowers, the car....I guess the cassette tape was resolved....so much information!!!!!

[izzyB]

Ok, Izzy, you are rereading I was the other day, LOL....and I remembered the flowers, but forgot what the outcome was...so we never had an outcome on the flowers on WS? If so, I couldn't find it.

I am going to research this some more, maybe check the Q&A on Center Daily and if can't find there I 'll send this question in.

I remember the car theft too, isn't it amazing, we are on one thing, then move on and forgot about the other things, like the flowers, the car....I guess the cassette tape was resolved....so much information!!!!!


listen, LE thinks they have "solved" the mystery of the flowers, but i do not!!
the timing is all wrong for someone to go down there and leave flowers according to their (LE's) theory b/c ray is missing. how could that be when even the police are just starting to look for the guy??? they found the flowers probably saturday afternoon, sunday at the latest, for it to make it into the papers. who would high-tail it down there that soon, and on top of that know where to go and place flowers??? makes no sense.

this is why i think there is some kind of cover-up.

[christine2448]

I am reading all back through the Q&A, interesting to say the least...I haven't read there in awhile.


I found this answer about the 'open law book', I was under the impression it was found on Gricar's desk..I did NOT know the following:

It was supposedly found on Assistant District Attorney Mark Smith's desk on Monday. I do not know if Smith was in on Friday. But all ADAs can come into the Courthouse on the weekends to work, with the proper identification to get into the building of course. So anyone could have put it there, including Ray. But former Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon told me the book was not fingerprinted. So the book at this point is, to quote Shakespeare, a lot of "sound and fury signifying nothing."

[christine2448]

I wonder if Ray had a LI policy, how much, when taken, who was beneficiary?

[christine2448]

ANother thing that keeps coming up, LARA had and has complete control over Ray's finances...another thing I missed:

Q&A Page 6
Lara Gricar has not reported any unusual activity in Ray's accounts, which she has complete control over.

[christine2448]

The car was NOT Patti's everyone.


It was Ray's. But when he bought the Mini Cooper, in cash, he registered it in Patty's name. His reasoning, as told to police by Patty, was that he wanted his assets protected in case he was ever sued for wrongful prosecution, or something like that. So the car was Ray's, but registered to Patty

[Hbgchick]

The car was NOT Patti's everyone.


It was Ray's. But when he bought the Mini Cooper, in cash, he registered it in Patty's name. His reasoning, as told to police by Patty, was that he wanted his assets protected in case he was ever sued for wrongful prosecution, or something like that. So the car was Ray's, but registered to Patty
Not to mince hairs, but whoever the car is registered to is the technical owner of the car, regardless of who paid for it. We got into this same argument over the weekend with a friend's sister, who STUPIDLY signed her car over to her druggie boyfriend so that it would be in his name (this is a whole other story , but this girl has completely lost her mind). She kept insisting that it was still "her car" but she just wanted him to be able to drive it. But legally, no. It is now his car, just as the mini-cooper was Patty's car. RG may have been the primary (or even sole) driver, but if it's registered to Patty, it's legally Patty's.

[christine2448]

Not to mince hairs, but whoever the car is registered to is the technical owner of the car, regardless of who paid for it. We got into this same argument over the weekend with a friend's sister, who STUPIDLY signed her car over to her druggie boyfriend so that it would be in his name (this is a whole other story , but this girl has completely lost her mind). She kept insisting that it was still "her car" but she just wanted him to be able to drive it. But legally, no. It is now his car, just as the mini-cooper was Patty's car. RG may have been the primary (or even sole) driver, but if it's registered to Patty, it's legally Patty's.
Well, ya yer right, but I was under the impression by stuff I read that people were wondering why he would be driving 'her' car.....now my outlook ont hat has changed...my car is in hubby's name, registered under him, the whole schmoo, but if you were to ask anyone I know who drives the little silver one and who drives the black truck, they'd say the little silver one was Christine's car...know what I mean?

[Louisa]

Christine, Re the cars, I think there would be a difference with a legal marriage in a community property state, so that when you say, "That's Christine's car" even though it's in hubby's name, there's some legal backing to it.

PF and RG were not married and hadn't been living together long enough to be "common law" in Pennsylvania, even if we used the longest possible time frame of the disputed time frames for living together.

Also, I came across a link last night for the tape--it was an aerobics tape according to LE and they dismissed any connection to RG.

Izzy, I see what you're saying. LE's story is as Chickie theorized, IIRC--that the person who supposedly put the flowers there came to LE and said, "It was me. I put them there as a tribute to Ray." (made up quote, of course) I'm not saying this is true or not true, just reporting what was reported!

[christine2448]

Christine, Re the cars, I think there would be a difference with a legal marriage in a community property state, so that when you say, "That's Christine's car" even though it's in hubby's name, there's some legal backing to it.

PF and RG were not married and hadn't been living together long enough to be "common law" in Pennsylvania, even if we used the longest possible time frame of the disputed time frames for living together.

Also, I came across a link last night for the tape--it was an aerobics tape according to LE and they dismissed any connection to RG.

Izzy, I see what you're saying. LE's story is as Chickie theorized, IIRC--that the person who supposedly put the flowers there came to LE and said, "It was me. I put them there as a tribute to Ray." (made up quote, of course) I'm not saying this is true or not true, just reporting what was reported!
Ok..just smack me in the head....IZZY..help me out, is the flowers things resolved or do I need to keep diggin'? I have spent my time rereading the Q&A, it's been awhile since I went on there, fascinating.

[Hbgchick]

I see what you mean Christine. But as Louise said, you and hubby are indeed married. PF and RG were not, and I think it is rather odd that RG would buy a car, in cash, and put it in Patty's name if he weren't planning something. That whole story about whatever it was he said is, IMO, made up. Which of course takes me back to the theory that he took off on his own. Sigh.

DID someone actually go to LE and say "I put the flowers there"? For whatever reason? Sorry - I'm missing if someone actually did that or not.

[christine2448]

Which of course takes me back to the theory that he took off on his own. Sigh..After really jumping back into this again...as most of you know I had a baby 7 months ago, I hadn't been following as much, just relying on news and mom and sis...now that I am rereading and looking back into everything, and the Q&A stuff mostly....I am sadly thinking that he planned this...but why?

Here's my take on it.....let's find him if he did just take off and make him face all these people that have been so concerned, scared, hurt, spending $$, resources and time trying to figure out what happened! Do we start in or out of the US? :waitasec:


It's so hard to believe he would do this.

What about the Laura.....the bank acct thing is odd to me, the $$ is really smacking me in the head, this is just not adding up.

WHile preggers, I spent a lot of time researchign the corruption in those parts, the drugs goings on, I was CONVINCED that he was murdered.....but still can find no evidence of that........the money this is INCREDIBLY strange, this is taken the cake right now.




DID someone actually go to LE and say "I put the flowers there"? For whatever reason? Sorry - I'm missing if someone actually did that or not.Still looking or waiting for Izzy to clarify, which ever comes first

[izzyB]

Ok..just smack me in the head....IZZY..help me out, is the flowers things resolved or do I need to keep diggin'? I have spent my time rereading the Q&A, it's been awhile since I went on there, fascinating.


i have found the first mention of the flowers in post #24 (i believe) on the first thread. it was in reference to an article linked in post #23 that is no longer available, but websleuths date these posts 4/18/05.

these flowers first found by LE when they searched the river bank the first time for ray has NOT been resolved to my satisfaction (and was not resolved on the first thread). but LE has given a lame excuse.

[christine2448]

i have found the first mention of the flowers in post #24 (i believe) on the first thread. it was in reference to an article linked in post #23 that is no longer available, but websleuths date these posts 4/18/05.

these flowers first found by LE when they searched the river bank the first time for ray has NOT been resolved to my satisfaction (and was not resolved on the first thread). but LE has given a lame excuse.
:blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss:

[christine2448]

i have found the first mention of the flowers in post #24 (i believe) on the first thread. it was in reference to an article linked in post #23 that is no longer available, but websleuths date these posts 4/18/05.

these flowers first found by LE when they searched the river bank the first time for ray has NOT been resolved to my satisfaction (and was not resolved on the first thread). but LE has given a lame excuse.Just wrote to Pete asking him about the flowers, let's see if he knows anything that we missed.

[luthersmama]

A few minor points:

- Did Lara always have control over his finances or did that come about as a result of his disappearance? My guess is that she had a durable power of attorney that she exercised after he disappeared.

- There is no common law marriage in PA any more.

- Who owns the car is whoever is on the title document

- It would have been a waste of time to fingerprint the law book. The article didn't say whether that copy belonged just to the DAs office or whether other county employees had access to it, but it was most likely covered in years and years worth of prints.

[christine2448]

A few minor points:

- Did Lara always have control over his finances or did that come about as a result of his disappearance? My guess is that she had a durable power of attorney that she exercised after he disappeared.

- There is no common law marriage in PA any more.

- Who owns the car is whoever is on the title document

- It would have been a waste of time to fingerprint the law book. The article didn't say whether that copy belonged just to the DAs office or whether other county employees had access to it, but it was most likely covered in years and years worth of prints.Nope, Pete Bosak said for SOME TIME...not since his disappearance...that is what I think is weird....let me see if I can find the exact words, it was actually said more than once.....brb ;)

[christine2448]

QUESTION: The issue of Gricar's savings may be a lot bigger than you realize. Just doing a back of an envolope calculation using an average salory of 90K a year for 20 years yields some 1.8 Million dollars. Even accounting for taxes and alimony and children's college education expenses, that leaves a huge amount of money not accounted for IMO. An estate comprising 100k, a car, and maybe a house does not add up. Not even close ! Were some funds put into some kind of trust for his children ? Did he give massive amounts of money to charity every year ?

Anonymous, Albany, NY 5/25/06


ANSWER: He only had his daughter, Lara, and Ray had held his checking and savings accounts jointly with her for years. Friends tell me he was a frugle man who did not give away money by the fistfuls to charities. What do you think? Even his closest friends think he should have had more money that that. But that is all police found.

Pete Bosak 5/31/06

HERE's ANOTHER

QUESTION:Do you know, since you seem to know more than anyone else, WHEN Ray put his finances in joint name with his daughter. For instance, did he used to keep his money and accounts in his own name and just recently put stuff in joint names or has he always kept accounts in joint names with his daughter? Also, did he always keep cars titled in someone elses name or his own name or was the Mini Cooper being in Patty's name something new for him?
Anonymous, State College 5/25/06


ANSWER: I do not know specifically when he made his savings and checking accounts joint ones with his beloved daughter, but it was years before he disappeared. By all accounts, he tried to help her in any way he could and she was a student at the time. As for your last question, I'm looking into that as far as whether putting his property in someone else's name was a fairly new development or something he always did as a prosecutor. I'll let you know what I find out. Pete Bosak 5/26/06

[christine2448]

Another one


QUESTION: I say, "follow the money". Where is all of Ray's savings? Until his finances are revealed, I think it looks like he flew the coop. He did not have a particularly good track record in his past relationships with women. It seems to me the police should verify his finances as priority number one in order to rule out Ray's self-imposed disappearance. As is so often the case; 'show me the money'.
pat, weston, FL 5/22/06


ANSWER: Ray's savings and checking accounts were jointly held with his beloved daughter, Lara Gricar. Police are relying on her to tell them if there is any unusual activity in those accounts. Police have indicated there was more than $100,000 combined in those accounts. He had no investments. He paid no alimony to his two past wives. While he was making $129,000 the year he vanished, who knows? Perhaps his divorce settlements were more costly than many would think. Lara Gricar has not reported any unusual activity in Ray's accounts, which she has complete control over. Pete Bosak 5/23/06

[Louisa]

Christine,

First, Happy Baby! Don't know where you're finding to time to do any of this with an infant!

Thanks for digging up all the Bosak references to the finances. I did not realize that the joint accounts pre-dated the disappearance, thought only that Lara had been put in charge of "monitoring" the accounts since Ray went missing. That makes a lot more sense now from LE perspective since she already had half "power" to the account (originally thought it might be a bit like having John Ramsey search the Ramsey house that morning for JonBenet, i.e., just a bit of an ill-advised move).

That said, it also makes more sense that IF Ray is alive, he's going to KNOW Lara has access to his accounts as opposed to merely surmising that LE will be watching his bank accounts and would therefore not touch them if we wants to stay hidden.

Also wanted to say I read the accounts posted regarding your sister's ordeal and I am so sorry and SO glad your sister has been able to piece her life together. I have a young friend going through something similar, and it is heartbreaking.

[Hbgchick]

Another one


QUESTION: I say, "follow the money". Where is all of Ray's savings? Until his finances are revealed, I think it looks like he flew the coop. He did not have a particularly good track record in his past relationships with women. It seems to me the police should verify his finances as priority number one in order to rule out Ray's self-imposed disappearance. As is so often the case; 'show me the money'.
pat, weston, FL 5/22/06


ANSWER: Ray's savings and checking accounts were jointly held with his beloved daughter, Lara Gricar. Police are relying on her to tell them if there is any unusual activity in those accounts. Police have indicated there was more than $100,000 combined in those accounts. He had no investments. He paid no alimony to his two past wives. While he was making $129,000 the year he vanished, who knows? Perhaps his divorce settlements were more costly than many would think. Lara Gricar has not reported any unusual activity in Ray's accounts, which she has complete control over. Pete Bosak 5/23/06
I'm sure that there has not been unusual activity in the referenced bank accounts. But what if there was one BIG account elsewhere that Lara was not aware of? A seasoned prosecutor would know that the first thing that LE would look into would be his finances. That's what I keep coming back to also - he had been in law enforcement for years and years and years, and knew lots of tricks of the trade, I'm sure.

[Hbgchick]

HOLY CRAP. You don't think that, with RG being a prosecutor and all, that he has been planning this for years and Lara AND PF and who knows who else are involved as a little trick on LE, do you? As in, let's see if we can fool our own people?

[christine2448]

HOLY CRAP. You don't think that, with RG being a prosecutor and all, that he has been planning this for years and Lara AND PF and who knows who else are involved as a little trick on LE, do you? As in, let's see if we can fool our own people?
Naaaahhhh.

[Hbgchick]

HOLY CRAP. You don't think that, with RG being a prosecutor and all, that he has been planning this for years and Lara AND PF and who knows who else are involved as a little trick on LE, do you? As in, let's see if we can fool our own people?
Sorry guys. My lame attempt at humor. My brain has been working overtime with every possible scenario, just thought I'd throw that in the mix. Bad taste, I apologize. :o

[luthersmama]

Having his accounts made joint with Lara makes some sense from the estate planning standpoint. This way, all the money goes directly to Lara without passing through Ray's estate.

Very strange about the amounts. I have to say that it really sounds to me like he has been moving money to an off-shore account all along. He lived in Patty's house, drove Patty's car, and Lara is joint owner of all the known money. Very tidy.

I suspect an alternate identity and that he has taken a powder. He was interested in New England, antiques, old cars. I would check the coast of Maine first, but I would not be at all surprised if he is on a Caribbean island. Maybe Abaco.

[christine2448]

Sorry guys. My lame attempt at humor. My brain has been working overtime with every possible scenario, just thought I'd throw that in the mix. Bad taste, I apologize. :o
I don't think it was bad taste, or apology needed, IMO...I think that any and every single solitary thought should be brought up....anything.....someone in the Anna Water thread cracked me up, said he couldn't believe that he read alllllll that is being posted on there and that noone said UFO or aliens!

My nahhhh, was a funny nahhhhhh...hehe. Like, get outta here, no way...but you never know kinda nahhhhhh. I'm from Jersey, if you could here me say it!

[christine2448]

Here's my take on it.....let's find him if he did just take off and make him face all these people that have been so concerned, scared, hurt, spending $$, resources and time trying to figure out what happened! Do we start in or out of the US? :waitasec:

OK...so...let's get his picture on news stations in the Caribean, who wants that task? LOL....I'll take Maine.....who else?

The way to find him is for someone to recognize him...who thinks he is further then US...anyone else? Where do you think he went? Uht oh...feel another thread coming on. The search for Ray....the walkaway?

EDIT TO ADD THE SEARCH FOR RAY WALKAWAY (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40548)

[Hbgchick]

I don't think it was bad taste, or apology needed, IMO...I think that any and every single solitary thought should be brought up....anything.....someone in the Anna Water thread cracked me up, said he couldn't believe that he read alllllll that is being posted on there and that noone said UFO or aliens!

My nahhhh, was a funny nahhhhhh...hehe. Like, get outta here, no way...but you never know kinda nahhhhhh. I'm from Jersey, if you could here me say it!
Lol...didn't realize you were from Jersey christine. NOW I know how you say it! :blowkiss: I guess you're right though, ANY theory should be brought up.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

It took me a while to realize that this thread was here. I was wondering why it's been so quiet - didn't realize the old thread was locked! :doh:

Anyway, it's very odd to me that Ray and Lara shared accounts. Wasn't it said that he and Lara had just mended their relationship shortly before he went missing? So how is it possible that they were sharing an account(s?) for years? And honestly, as much as I love my kids, I would not share an account with them that held every single cent of mine. I wouldn't trust anyone, even my kids, not to drain my account. I firmly believe that this could have been done by Ray intentionally so that LE thinks that this is his only account, and that it can be verified by his daughter.

Secondly, I think that it's ridiculous that Lara is responsible for reporting any activity on the account to LE. Until Ray is found, they can't be sure that Lara isn't involved.

About the flowers, I don't have any of the old links or anything but from what I remember, LE said that the flowers were discovered to be unrelated to Ray's case.

There was a fourth thing but I can't remember what it was. I'll be back to edit as soon as I remember. lol.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Copied from an old post by Christine:

What about the daffodils placed near a bridge in Lewisburg?

http://www.centredaily.com/images/common/spacer.gif
By Erin L. Nissley
http://www.centredaily.com/images/common/spacer.gif
enissley@centredaily.com
http://www.centredaily.com/images/common/spacer.gif


Q: An article published soon after Gricar’s car was found in Lewisburg April 16 said daffodils appeared to have been placed near a bridge just beyond the parking lot.

One reader asked if the CDT had any other information about the flowers.

A: Neither police nor Gricar’s family think the daffodils found near the bridge had anything to do with Gricar or his disappearance.

Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said the flowers appeared to have been there for several days and there were even older flowers on the ground nearby.

Gricar’s nephew, Tony Gricar, also visited the site near where Gricar’s car was found and said the area where the flowers were found “looks as if it’s someone else’s shrine where they dump the old flowers off the bridge and replace them with new.”

Zaccagni said different flowers were placed near the Street of Shops in Lewisburg about a week after Gricar disappeared. At least two people said they saw Gricar at the antique mall on April 16.

Zaccagni said those flowers were traced to a victim in a case Gricar had prosecuted.

“She said she put them there to remember him,” Zaccagni said.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ray Gricar- Central Pennsylvania (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=728673&postcount=595)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I've been looking through some old articles and the one thing that keeps jumping out at me is that there really wasn't much that tied Ray to his life and home as we know of it. His child is a grown woman, he was due to retire, and he didn't seem to have many close relationships outside of Patty:

"In Bellefonte, courthouse workers and several neighbors of Gricar described the prosecutor as friendly, though he did not socialize much outside of work.

"I don't think anybody knows Ray well around here," said Ted Ranio, 69, a retired police officer and factory worker who has lived in Gricar's neighborhood since 1964."

Family of missing prosecutor keeps vigil as police look for clues (phillyBurbs.com) | Pennsylvania News (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Edym80BjJYAJ:www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-04192005-478333.html+%22ray+gricar%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8)

[Hbgchick]

Anyway, it's very odd to me that Ray and Lara shared accounts. Wasn't it said that he and Lara had just mended their relationship shortly before he went missing? So how is it possible that they were sharing an account(s?) for years? And honestly, as much as I love my kids, I would not share an account with them that held every single cent of mine. I wouldn't trust anyone, even my kids, not to drain my account. I firmly believe that this could have been done by Ray intentionally so that LE thinks that this is his only account, and that it can be verified by his daughter.
FWIW, my father-in-law has his daughter (my hubby's sister) on his checking account, at least her name is on the checks along with his. I still think it's weird mind you, but at least know of someone else who has done that. I'm assuming it has something to do with taxes or what have you. BUT, I'm also reasonably sure that it's not the ONLY account my father-in-law has. He is, like Ray, very frugal (might go so far as "cheap") and makes a good deal of money, so I could venture to guess he's got quite a bit in the bank.

I too believe that Ray had at least one other account somewhere.

[englishleigh]

I was just thinking...with all this flooding in PA of the Susquehanna River, I wonder if RG has been in the river, if they might find him now, or more clues, at least?

[bykerladi]

I live on the Delaware, and I can tell you that the flooding has dredged up TONS of debris. As the water receeds, the debris is left behind. I know the Susquahana is the same. News states it will crest sometime tonight in that area, so if he's in there and is dredged up, we'll know by tomorrow.

However, the Susquahana also flooded last year (the 100 year storm). I think if rain and flooding was going to bring up new evidence, it would've been then.

[izzyB]

I was just thinking...with all this flooding in PA of the Susquehanna River, I wonder if RG has been in the river, if they might find him now, or more clues, at least?


i had the identical thought earlier today when i heard about the flooding!!!

[Louisa]

These are some pretty chilling thoughts about what the rivers might give up with the flooding this summer . . . not sure I want to go there!

On the other hand, 14 months have passed, with a dry summer last year, extensive river searches after Ray's disappearance, hikers, hunters, etc. combing the woods and river banks, and all we've found is the computer and the hard drive. I'm inclined to think if we haven't even found a piece of clothing by now, we're unlikely to find Ray's remains along or in the river at this point.

And finding his remains in or along the river would assume he went to Lewisburg (or nearby), stayed there, and met with foul play there. Not everyone is 100% sure of that, especially with Carolyn Fenton's claim that she saw him from 15-20 feet away parked in the courthouse parking lot in Bellefonte at 3 pm on Friday afternoon of April 15th. I know that LE hasn't changed their timeline because of that sighting (see Pete Bosak's Q&A, June 27), but I wonder whether the new task force looking at the case will see things differently.

Just my opinion, of course . . .

[christine2448]

Got a nice email from Pete Bosak of centre daily news. Asked me if I think he has missed any angles......anyone have any suggestions on this?


Thanks for reading Christine. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I had been out sick for a bit. I’m trying to keep new developments coming, but I must admit, they are becoming few and far between. I think of Ray every day and hope to do some kind of follow-up in the near future. Perhaps a story about how everything has gone cold again after renewed interest following the anniversary of his disappearance.
Do you know of any possible angles I have missed? I’m always looking for ideas.
Thanks again for reading and please, keep in touch.

Pete

[Hbgchick]

And finding his remains in or along the river would assume he went to Lewisburg (or nearby), stayed there, and met with foul play there. Not everyone is 100% sure of that, especially with Carolyn Fenton's claim that she saw him from 15-20 feet away parked in the courthouse parking lot in Bellefonte at 3 pm on Friday afternoon of April 15th. I know that LE hasn't changed their timeline because of that sighting (see Pete Bosak's Q&A, June 27), but I wonder whether the new task force looking at the case will see things differently.

Just my opinion, of course . . .
I'm with you Louisa. I am one who really is not sure he went to Lewisburg and if he did that he met with foul play there.

I wrote to Pete Bosak asking why the sightings by Carolyn Fenton and the men in Wilkes-Barre were totally dismissed by LE. I have not recieved an answer yet, but Christine, that's something I would definitely push with him. I am just not comfortable with the explaination that they discount these sightings because it "doesn't fit their timeline". I certainly hope that the new task force will take these sightings more seriously.

I also have a question - I heard somewhere that the gentlemen in Wilkes-Barre viewed a video and indentified Ray as Ray. Do we know where that video is now?

[Louisa]

Got a nice email from Pete Bosak of centre daily news. Asked me if I think he has missed any angles......anyone have any suggestions on this?


Thanks for reading Christine. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I had been out sick for a bit. I’m trying to keep new developments coming, but I must admit, they are becoming few and far between. I think of Ray every day and hope to do some kind of follow-up in the near future. Perhaps a story about how everything has gone cold again after renewed interest following the anniversary of his disappearance.
Do you know of any possible angles I have missed? I’m always looking for ideas.
Thanks again for reading and please, keep in touch.

Pete
Hi Christine,

Well, the last I checked Pete's column was late last night so there's always the chance he answered my question today:D , but you could email him and tell him that I wrote him three or four weeks ago asking him about an angle I think is worth checking into! I asked whether LE had done anything to try to connect the dots between the reported sighting of the tan car which was following a red and white Mini-Cooper on route 80 on Friday, April 15, 2005 and the tan metallic or silver metallic car Carolyn Fenton reported seeing Ray in in the Bellefonte parking lot on Friday, April 15, 2005.

Twice I saw Pete say, "For those of you who haven't had your questions answered, be patient. I don't want to rush answers to questions that require research" or something to that effect. So I waited patiently. And I still haven't had an answer.

I thought it was a pretty danged good question, but then what do I know?

Maybe it's because LE has dismissed CF's sighting and he doesn't want to go there? Of course, he answered the Billy Joe Leathers question for about the third time, so I don't know why he wouldn't at least use his classic, "Food for thought" response to mine.

Sigh.

[Louisa]

I'm with you Louisa. I am one who really is not sure he went to Lewisburg and if he did that he met with foul play there.

I wrote to Pete Bosak asking why the sightings by Carolyn Fenton and the men in Wilkes-Barre were totally dismissed by LE. I have not recieved an answer yet, but Christine, that's something I would definitely push with him. I am just not comfortable with the explaination that they discount these sightings because it "doesn't fit their timeline". I certainly hope that the new task force will take these sightings more seriously.

I also have a question - I heard somewhere that the gentlemen in Wilkes-Barre viewed a video and indentified Ray as Ray. Do we know where that video is now?
Chickie,

Did you give Pete the whole "beer" explanation we went through?

As for the video, I got the impression from the article that it might have been either home movie video or court video they viewed. Is there a reason you're asking? I don't know where the video is--just wondering what line of thinking you're pursuing.

[Hbgchick]

Lol...I didn't, only because I didn't have time and wanted to get that question out!

Well, just wondering where it was cuz I'd sure like to see it! And I also wonder how closely it was analyzed, or was the whole concept just thrown out the window? Would also like to see if he's actually wearing a "suit" or a sportcoat.

[Louisa]

Chick,

We don't have much to go on with photos for Ray, but if you go to raygricar.com and look at the photo of him posed with the Mini, he's there in a sports coat and slacks. Put a nicer shirt under that sports coat, and your typical unobservant male could mistake that for a suit. Or, conversely, LE's report could transpose sports coat for suit by the time it makes the press. You know how "faint smell of cigarettes" sometimes shows up as "reeks of cigarette smoke." I still don't know whether it was faint smell or reeking, to tell you the truth. So, sport coat or suit, it's hard to tell what the actual people a) saw and b) reported to LE and c) LE reported to the press and d) the press actually decided to print, if you know what I mean. So much in this case gets twisted and turned around. Orange juice, sleeping, not sleeping . . . Just my opinion . . . but a great idea, if we could somehow see the actual tape. AS IF "they" would let a couple of WS'ers take a look, lol!

[Hbgchick]

Chick,

We don't have much to go on with photos for Ray, but if you go to raygricar.com and look at the photo of him posed with the Mini, he's there in a sports coat and slacks. Put a nicer shirt under that sports coat, and your typical unobservant male could mistake that for a suit. Or, conversely, LE's report could transpose sports coat for suit by the time it makes the press. You know how "faint smell of cigarettes" sometimes shows up as "reeks of cigarette smoke." I still don't know whether it was faint smell or reeking, to tell you the truth. So, sport coat or suit, it's hard to tell what the actual people a) saw and b) reported to LE and c) LE reported to the press and d) the press actually decided to print, if you know what I mean. So much in this case gets twisted and turned around. Orange juice, sleeping, not sleeping . . . Just my opinion . . . but a great idea, if we could somehow see the actual tape. AS IF "they" would let a couple of WS'ers take a look, lol!AND, could be interpreted wildly differently between a smoker and a non smoker. To you, a non-smoker..."Ugh! It reeks of smoke in here!!" and me, a smoker "Hm. Smells like someone's been smoking recently".

To anyone who's wondering what Louisa's on about :D - she's addressing the question I sent to Pete B. Here is the (unedited before I had to cut out 400 characters) version:

Hi Pete,


Just curious about the video that showed a man in a suit sitting at a bar drinking a Heineken and smoking. This was discounted as "not Ray" because he typically drank Guinness beer, he did not smoke, and if he were "getting away" he would not be wearing a suit. I can easily address all of these issues.


Non-beer drinkers (or American beer drinkers) might not understand this, but I have been known to drink both Heineken AND Guinness beers depending on what I may be eating, the mood or ambiance of the establishment, etc.. They're VERY different beers, we're not talking Coors Light and Miller Light here.


Also, he was smoking. RG did not smoke...usually. However there was an odor of cigarette smoke in the MINI and traces of ash on the floor. Did RG ever smoke previously? As a reformed smoker, I have been known to still light up occasionally when under stress.


The suit. Are we SURE it was a suit? Or maybe just a sport jacket? Even if it WAS a suit, so what? What time of day or evening was it? I know many men (especially older, well groomed ones) who dress for dinner, thought that might sound foreign to some people it certainly happens. My step-dad for example, is so ingrained to wear a suit when he goes out for dinner, even at age 83 and with advanced Alzheimer’s disease, he STILL wants to put a suit on if we go out.



Anyway…could you address why the video was so easily explained away based on these three seemingly unimportant details?

[christine2448]

What's goin on everyone? I haven't heard a peep about Ray in a good bit.

He is still missing...

[christine2448]

The reward previously offered to anyone with information regarding the disappearance of Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar has expired.

The $10,000 reward -- initiated by Gricar's family about a month after his disappearance in April 2005 -- had a 12-month deadline. The family had hoped that during that time, someone would come forward with timely information.



News Link (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/09/09-06-06tdc/09-06-06dnews-01.asp)



Where is Ray??????

[Hbgchick]

Hi Christine. We're still here, just no new info!

[christine2448]

A state police team of investigators looking into Bellefonte Police Department's handling of the Ray Gricar disappearance now is not scheduled to meet until the middle of October.

While he had hoped the team of elite criminal investigators would have met by now for an in-depth review of the investigation into the disappearance of the former district attorney, Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira said he is not concerned about the time the troopers' review is taking.

"I'm willing to let it take whatever time it takes," said Madeira, who requested the review.

NEWS LINK (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/15513643.htm)

Seems everyone is OK with the butt draggin' goin' on here. Let's do it right they say. Dag gum it's only been a year and 1/2 since Ray has gone missing! Let's get it together people!!!!! JMO.

[christine2448]

A meeting of state police investigators looking into the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar has been delayed by two weeks.

State police troopers studying the investigation into Gricar's disappearance now are not scheduled to meet until Oct. 31 and Nov. 1-2 at an undisclosed location, Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver said. The panel of seasoned investigators from across the commonwealth were slated to meet in mid-October to determine whether anything was missed or overlooked during the investigation into what happened to the career prosecutor.

"The delay is due to scheduling conflicts with the state police," Weaver said. "There are going to be quite a few troopers at this meeting."

Short article (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/15558073.htm)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

News in brief (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/09/09-21-06tdc/09-21-06dnews-13.asp)

State police investigators are scheduled to meet Nov. 15 to Nov. 17 to review the case of missing Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar...
"They're going to do a pretty thorough review of what's been covered and what hasn't," Madeira said.

He added that only law enforcement personnel will be permitted to attend. The meeting will take place outside of Centre County, but the location is confidential.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Bump.

[Pandora]

There is a MAJOR meeting today(?) or within the next few days w/ everyone involved in the case discussing it and trying to brainstorm new leads. (It was announced on the local radio station.)

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Let's pray that this meeting will turn up something. This must seem completely endless to those that love and are missing Ray.

[christine2448]

Let's pray that this meeting will turn up something. This must seem completely endless to those that love and are missing Ray.
Yes, Pray. Thanks Jersey!

[Pandora]

Case review delayed until November 15.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/15904503.htm

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Centre Daily Times | 11/01/2006 | State police delay Gricar case review -- again (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/15904503.htm)

The much-anticipated meeting of Pennsylvania State Police criminal investigators reviewing the investigation into the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar has been postponed until the week of Nov. 15.

The meeting had been scheduled for Tuesday, Wednesday and today at an undisclosed location...

They have scheduled, and then postponed, their meeting three times now.

************************************************** **********

One of the articles posted a while back stated that it would take place November 15 so I'm not sure why this is written as if it's a new & sudden decision.

ETA: Hmm, maybe it wasn't posted before - I can't seem to find any post about it now. But I could swear that a long time ago, someone in an article had mentioned November 15th as the date for this meeting. :waitasec:

[christine2448]

************************************************** **********

One of the articles posted a while back stated that it would take place November 15 so I'm not sure why this is written as if it's a new & sudden decision.

ETA: Hmm, maybe it wasn't posted before - I can't seem to find any post about it now. But I could swear that a long time ago, someone in an article had mentioned November 15th as the date for this meeting. :waitasec:
I am sure you are right, I had read more than once that the meetings would be held Nov 15-17. I can't find it either, but your not crazy, I read that too!

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Thanks so much, christine! I was beginning to think that the kids had finally driven me over the edge!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Pandora]

News briefing conclusion: "We are no closer to solving this case."
"Local investigators have no new clues. . . ."
They are considering re-interviewing "persons of interest."
Recent tips have turned out to be "non-credible."
"Federal and state investigators are involved w/ Bellefonte PD running point."

Just a few quotes from the locat WTAJ channel 10 news story at 5:00.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

*SIGH* :( :banghead:

[Lili]

Disappointing isn't it. I was hoping something...anything...might have been overlooked. Maybe if persons involved are requestioned someone might remember something helpful.

[altruist1000]

Would be happy if "persons of interest" are reinterviewed.

IMO, there was a serious conflict of interest & BPD should never have been the primary investigating authority.

God Bless Ray Gricar & his family.

[izzyB]

i think the lady from the courthouse who saw ray gricar leave in a car from the courthouse that friday afternoon should be hypnotized (sp) if she would allow it. to me she is the crucial witness who could turn this whole investigation in a new direction.

i think this is a serious sighting since she remembers so clearly saying as she scooted out of work early the friday in question, "well there is ray leaving the parking lot, and if the DA can leave early than i can too"....or words to that affect. if she is correct, and i believe she is, this places ray back at home and not miles away in those hours immediately before patti reports him missing.

i also think there should be some sort of independent review of his finances. i was shocked to learn that they had been letting his daughter handle them without even an audit etc. i don't care what personal feelings are, they should be looked at with new eyes, and not anyone associated with the prior investigations of this mystery.

[AlwaysShocked]

I have been interested in this case from the beginning but didn't follow it as closely as some of you have. I've taken the time to read many of the threads here. So I guess I am a "fresh eye" on things?

Some thoughts and questions:

1.) Bodies don't just "disappear". It was mid-April. Not a time of year when a river would freeze over or anything like that. I live near Pittsburgh. Lots of rivers. Bodies wash up. What are the "official" thoughts as to why no body has ever surfaced?

2.) How far from the bridge was the laptop found? How far from the laptop was the hard drive found? How does one remove a hard drive from a laptop? Need a tool such as a screwdriver? Anything like that found?

(Okay, I am going to kill myself. But first I am going to disassemble this computer somehow and throw the pieces into the river somewhere. Then I am going to jump off the bridge. ??)

3.) Having daughter's name on bank accounts, suposedly for years, and paying cash for a car that you title into someone else's name is suspicious behavior IMO. And this was supposedly explained away by he was "afraid someone might sue him"? No way. (Somebody might sue me and take my car?) How many DAs live in fear of being sued to the point of this type of behavior? Not many, I would bet. Something else was going on here. (Car in the name of another = car insurance in the name of another. Poor driving record or a DUI on driving record causes people to put their car into someone else's name sometimes - not "fear of lawsuit".) Having a second person listed on a bank account allows the Social Security Number of either to be used by the bank for IRS reporting purposes. So if you have money in a bank and you DON'T want info on that account reported, and thus available for subponea from, say, a soon-to-be-ex wife, you add your child and report on their SSN.

4.) Does anyone else here remember the original interviews on TV with the girlfriend and the daughter? Right then and there I thought something was very strange! The wording from BOTH of them was "We'll wait for you as long as it takes" (or words very, very close to that). Nothing about "Oh, we hope nothing bad has happened" or "We want him back and beg whoever has taken him to return him to us". I thought it was extremely strange wording under the circumstances. And still do.

5.) Three different stories from girlfriend is suspicious. Bad reporting by media or something else?

6.) Who stood to gain what from the disappearance of this man? The daughter got his money? Who got his life insurance, if any? What did the girlfriend get? What about the guy who got his job?

Just some thoughts!

[AlwaysShocked]

Here are some answers from the CentreDaily.com forum maintained by reporter Pete Bosak:

"Experts tell me, including the Lewisburg police chief, that if Ray threw himself into the nearby Susquehanna River, his body would have turned up by now."

"As for interviewing Ray's closest friends, co-workers or neighbors, police did not do so in depth. As I reported several weeks ago, Assistant District Attorney Steve Sloane said he never was interviewed by lead investigator and Bellefonte Police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, nor was his other dear friend, Ed Walker. As for their direct neighbors, I'll find out for sure. Courthouse employees also complained to me they never were interviewed by police, all the while relating stories to me about "strange" behavior by Ray in the week's leading up to his disappearance.
Pete Bosak 6/06/06"

"But you are right, Ray took Thursday, April 14, 2005 off during the afternoon. But security cameras found Ray entering the courthouse later that evening wearing his blue jacket, blue jeans and tennis shoes. Those are the same things he was reported to be wearing the Friday he disappeared too. As to why he took that Thursday afternoon off, that was never explained to me in detail. I'm not sure he even told Patty, other to say he was "playing hooky." I'll see what else I can find out.
Pete Bosak 6/05/06"

"The river was rather low at the time of year Gricar disappeared. Parts of it can reach as deep as 15 to 20, or so I'm told by Lewisburg police. But during the spring and, especially the summer, you can walk across it in some places. The river was searched literally for perhaps a 100 miles. Fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters from Pennsylvania State Police went up and down the river looking for a body. But Lewisburg Police Chief Yost has told me the river is heavily used for recreation and by fisherman. If a body was in that river, Yost said, it would have been found by now. As to Gricar's cell phone, it was in the car. And no unusual calls were found on the phone.
Pete Bosak 5/22/06"

"But the hard drive, found separately from the laptop itself, was too badly damanged to retrieve any data from it. Zaccagni also said the hard drive was taken from the computer by "a clean pull," meaning it was not broken or pried from the computer itself. It was intentionally taken out of the computer. Both hard drive and laptop were then found at different points of the Susquehanna River."

"I'm not computer expert, but I'm told it's fairly easy to remove the hard drive from the machine. Investigators can't discount the theory that the hard drive popped out on its own before, during or after it was found in the Susquehanna River. They also can't discount that the hard drive was removed from the machine on purpose. Since experts can't access information on the hard drive found in the banks of the Susquehanna several months ago, the mystery of what was on the hard drive (and whether it was even the one that belonged to Gricar's county-issued laptop) remains."

"After the car was found by a passing state trooper, police dogs were brought to the parking lot but lost the scent very close to the car. According to Bellefonte police Officer Darrel Zaccagni, one of the K-9 handlers said that could mean Gricar got into another car. "

The above have answered almost all of my questions. Here is my theory:

Ray took off for a new life.
Ray met up with someone, probably a woman (2 prior marriages, current live-in relationship, several former girlfriends) got out of his car and got into another car. (Dogs lost scent close to car) Ray led his life in a manner which would allow him to "just disappear" some day if he felt like it. No real estate to tie him down, sufficient funds in a joint account to take care of his daughter - and set up in a manner that she would have no trouble getting the money.
Above average salary for years not reflected in bank accounts - the man accumulated cash, as evidenced by purchasing a fairly expensive vehicle for cash. (Know how unusual this is? Very!) No house payment. Nothing in his name. Gave the girlfriend a monthly sum to help out?
No body ever turns up in a river that is not all that deep (or wide).

Ray knew the computer would "add to the mystery". He threw it out of the car window as he and the new girlfriend drove across the bridge on their way out of town. The divers missed it during their search.

The daughter lives in California. She rarely ever calls the police to inquire about the case. She "gets her information from Patty", the girlfriend.

Ray was already through two divorces. The second divorce "may have cost him a pretty penny" according to the friend and co-worker listed above who was never inteviewed by investigators.

After being burned twice, he wanted his life to be organized in such a way that if he wanted out, he could get out at any time.

An interesting case!

[christine2448]

The Rivers Edge : Homicide? Suicide? Hoax? A Prosecutor Vanishes, And The Clues Point Everywhere And Nowhere At Once.the River’s Edge

http://www.freetimes.com/story/3739

[christine2448]

Gricar case review dispirits family
Nephew says detectives rehashed old files, failed to look for missed leads


Centre Daily (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/16226511.htm)

It was the first glimmer of hope the family and loved ones of Ray Gricar had had in a long time.

The Pennsylvania State Police Criminal Investigation Assessment Unit was asked in June to review Bellefonte Police Department's investigation into the April 15, 2005, disappearance of the former Centre County district attorney. After five months of review and several delays, the unit finally met last month for three days to discuss the case with District Attorney Michael Madeira and Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver.

When it was over, the family's hopes were dashed again.

"To go that many months with it being put on hold, delay after delay, and not get anything out of it is frustrating," said family spokesman Tony Gricar, the missing prosecutor's nephew. "I'm definitely disappointed we didn't see anything come out of the CIA review."

Tony Gricar, despite a conference call last week involving himself; the missing prosecutor's daughter, Lara; Gricar's former live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola; and Madeira, still is at a loss to understand what the CIA unit did.

"We didn't get any specific details on it other than they assessed it," Tony Gricar said.

The state police criminal investigation assessment team was expected to go over the case from top to the bottom and perhaps find missed leads or new avenues to pursue. According to Weaver and Madeira, the unit found no new evidence or missed leads.


This is what really gets me.....

The state police unit did not speak with Assistant District Attorney Carolyn Fenton, who said she saw Gricar in a parking lot behind the Centre County Courthouse at 3 p.m. April 15, 2005. She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car. She said she remembered because she felt better going home early knowing that the district attorney was doing the same. She was working as a law clerk for Judge David E. Grine at the time.

Police discounted Fenton's sighting because it did not fit their timeline of Ray Gricar being in Lewisburg.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The state police unit did not speak with Assistant District Attorney Carolyn Fenton, who said she saw Gricar in a parking lot behind the Centre County Courthouse at 3 p.m. April 15, 2005. She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car. She said she remembered because she felt better going home early knowing that the district attorney was doing the same. She was working as a law clerk for Judge David E. Grine at the time.

Police discounted Fenton's sighting because it did not fit their timeline of Ray Gricar being in Lewisburg.This part irks me every time I read it. Someone needs to really look into this.

[izzyB]

i agree that ADA Fenton is KEY in establishing a new timeline for ray's disappearance! i do not discount her in any way, and i wish some new eyes on this case would pursue this sighting. frankly i put a lot more stock in her sighting of ray than i do the owner of the antiques store who says he saw ray standing around outside the next day! this woman worked with ray for crying out loud!!!

[christine2448]

i agree that ADA Fenton is KEY in establishing a new timeline for ray's disappearance! i do not discount her in any way, and i wish some new eyes on this case would pursue this sighting. frankly i put a lot more stock in her sighting of ray than i do the owner of the antiques store who says he saw ray standing around outside the next day! this woman worked with ray for crying out loud!!!
She said he was in a different car, remember? That could be a huge clue.

[izzyB]

She said he was in a different car, remember? That could be a huge clue.


oh absolutely!!! i find it incredible that LE has practically ignored this woman.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

She said he was in a different car, remember? That could be a huge clue.IMO, if he was in a different car, then it changes everything. To me, it would mean that he likely left on his own.

[christine2448]

IMO, if he was in a different car, then it changes everything. To me, it would mean that he likely left on his own.
She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car.

From one of my above posts, she has said this from the beginning, I need to go back and see if I can find what kinda car she said it was.

[christine2448]

She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car.

From one of my above posts, she has said this from the beginning, I need to go back and see if I can find what kinda car she said it was.Here it is:

Fenton said she was about 15 to 20 feet away. Gricar was driving a gold or silver, metallic-colored car, not his Mini Cooper or Fornicola's Honda, she said.

Found in post #92, Ray Gricar Discussion #3.

[izzyB]

agree that him in a different car means he (probably with help) arranged his own disappearance. and considering that would mean he is likely alive today, i hope that is the case.

i also think i would recognize a co-worker in a car, albeit a different car, if i saw them at a distance of 15 feet.

for LE to ignore this MAJOR clue: could it mean that ray is in the witness-protection program as some here have speculated???

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Here it is:

Fenton said she was about 15 to 20 feet away. Gricar was driving a gold or silver, metallic-colored car, not his Mini Cooper or Fornicola's Honda, she said.

Found in post #92, Ray Gricar Discussion #3.Oh, I know that this has been discussed before. I was just agreeing that this is a HUGE detail to not look into. Being in a different car, to me, means that he chose to leave.

ETA: Good point, izzyb, that if LE is not looking into this woman's account of things in spite of it being such a bombshell then maybe that tells us something. And then we're supposed to believe that the FBI, CIA, etc., "reviewed" this case and couldn't solve it yet STILL didn't interview this woman. Beyond odd.

[christine2448]

Oh, I know that this has been discussed before.
LOL, I was more talking to myself, trying to recall if any specific info was actually given about the car. I was hoping for a make/model!

[izzyB]

maybe we should try and figure out WHY LE did not interview this woman, who is an ADA, by the way.

i will start with: maybe they do not believe her b/c eye-witness accounts are usually "wrong" or subject to interpretation. i think i have heard that there will be many different accounts of the same event when viewed by many people.

but if that is the case, using that logic, then the "eye-witness" accounts placing him at the antiques store should be held to the same standard. maybe the difference for LE is that his mini-cooper was at the antiques store.

still does not pass the smell test for me.

do we know where cell phone records place him over that weekend? has that ever been made public?

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

maybe we should try and figure out WHY LE did not interview this woman, who is an ADA, by the way.

i will start with: maybe they do not believe her b/c eye-witness accounts are usually "wrong" or subject to interpretation. i think i have heard that there will be many different accounts of the same event when viewed by many people.While witness accounts do vary, LE would still be obligated to take their statements nonetheless, IMO. The fact that the statements made by this woman that knew Ray well were ignored is insane. Either there's a reason for it or it's an extreme dereliction of duty.

[izzyB]

While witness accounts do vary, LE would still be obligated to take their statements nonetheless, IMO. The fact that the statements made by this woman that knew Ray well were ignored is insane. Either there's a reason for it or it's an extreme dereliction of duty.

Exactly!!! let's assume there is no dereliction of duty. why would there be among a LE agency that worked with this guy daily? what would be the reason? none. and what would be the reason for not tracing his financials? they usually do in almost every crime i read about. i think someone knows something...i hate to use the word "cover-up". but maybe he has gone in the witness protection program.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I think that you might be right, izzyb. Either witness protection or an inside job of some sort. Because even if the local LE dropped the balll, no one will ever be able to convince me that the FBI wouldn't have been interested in hearing that ADA's account of things.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

State College, PA - Local News (http://www.statecollege.com/news/local/article.php?cat=4&id=11027)

According to a Daily Collegian report, former assistant district attorney Karen Arnold has filed an age-discrimination complaint against Centre County after not being reappointed by the newly elected district attorney in January 2005. Arnold is 57-years-old, and worked as an assistant district attorney for 18 years under former District Attorney Ray Gricar. She was the only personnel member not reappointed by District Attorney Michael Madeira.

Arnold filed her complaint with the U.S. Equal Opportunity Commission early last week for reinstatement or payment for the time she has not been employed by the district attorney's office.

[curious1]

Wow, this case still fascinates me. Good to see there is still some discussion going on....now to just read and catch up on it all. Well, I'll get a lot done at work today. hee

[EdinburghLass]

Any updates? This is such a baffling case.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Centre Daily Times | 01/24/2007 | Officer to monitor school halls in Bellefonte (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/16530815.htm)

... With intentions of retiring later this year, Detective Darrel Zaccagni said he has decided to accept a part-time position as the school district's first school resource officer, a job the school board created for the first time Tuesday night.

But Zaccagni, who has been with the police department for 28 years, has just one regret.

"If things continue to go the way they go, I am not going to be able to see the Ray Gricar case closed and solved," he said. "That is always going to be a regret, if I am not going to be able to see closure on that before I leave..."

[christine2448]

Centre Daily Times | 01/24/2007 | Officer to monitor school halls in Bellefonte (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/16530815.htm)

... With intentions of retiring later this year, Detective Darrel Zaccagni said he has decided to accept a part-time position as the school district's first school resource officer, a job the school board created for the first time Tuesday night.

But Zaccagni, who has been with the police department for 28 years, has just one regret.

"If things continue to go the way they go, I am not going to be able to see the Ray Gricar case closed and solved," he said. "That is always going to be a regret, if I am not going to be able to see closure on that before I leave..."
Very sad, so sad. Can anyone say cover up? I just can't understand how and why Ray just vanished, this whole case doesn't make a lick of sense!

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

New investigator chosen to head missing DA case (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2007/01/01-26-07tdc/01-26-07dnews-03.asp)

... Because of Zaccagni's approaching retirement, Bellefonte police have been prepping a new point person for the case -- Bellefonte Police Det. Matt Rickard.

Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn Weaver said the transfer will not affect the investigation "whatsoever."

"Rickard has been working with the case since the beginning," he said. "I envisioned this happening in the future so I made [Rickard] more involved in the case."

Rickard has followed up on leads for the duration of the investigation and was involved at a November meeting with Pennsylvania State Police, assessing the investigation thus far, Weaver said...

(Patty) Fornicola declined to comment on Zaccagni's retirement from the police force and the investigation...

[Bobbisangel]

It is pretty clear to me that Ray didn't commit suicide or his body would have been found by now. I doubt that he would have gone off somewhere so that he couldn't be found for a long time. He had a daughter and because of his brother's suicide he would have known how that would have affected her...especially if he had never been found or not for a long time anyway.

Did he just take off or was foul play involved? His body has never been found. His laptop was found without the hard drive...I think...and then the hard drive was found later...is that right? That doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense that he would have gotten rid of the laptop like that or that someone else would have either. LE found his car so if he just took off why would he leave his car behind unless he bought another car because he didn't want to be tracked down. But why would he want to just disappear? Would he do that to his daughter? It doesn't seem that he would have.

This whole thing is a big puzzle and I wish LE would find out some answers.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

But why would he want to just disappear? Would he do that to his daughter? It doesn't seem that he would have.There are a couple of key things here, IMO. 1) His daughter lived on the other side of the country. 2) She was an adult. 3) They had recently reconnected. What this says to me is that this wasn't a Daddy's Little Girl situation - this was an adult woman that was living independent of (and quite far from) her Dad. It seems that they must have had some falling out at some point and had patched things up shortly before Ray went missing. Due to the above, I think that it is indeed possible that Ray would deliberately leave without his daughter knowing.

[Pandora]

Ray's picture and details were featured on this week's episode of "Without A Trace" Sunday night, March 25. Perhaps some leads will come of that.
Here's hoping!

[Bobbisangel]

In earlier posts it was said that LE hadn't questioned neighbors...co-workers or friends of Rays. So who in the world did they question anyway? It just sounds like they didn't do much of anything. I wonder if anyone ever talked to the co-worker who say Ray in a different car. Did she see him on friday when LE think he had already left town? I don't think LE has done much with this case. It is as if they already knew where he was. Maybe he is in a witness protection program but LE had to make it seem that they are looking for him to pacify the family and friends. It really is a mystery.

If he was seen in the parking lot of his office in a different car then when did he ditch his own car in another town? I thought someone saw him talking to a woman in his car there and there were cig butts outside the passenger door. Wasn't he caught on tape in a store with a woman in the town his car was found in?

[izzyB]

without going back to the earliests posts of this case, i believe the store owner of the shop where ray was headed did indeed recall seeing him shopping that day with a woman.

another shop owner in the strip of shops claim they saw ray saturday afternoon, the day after he was missing, standing in front of his store and it looked like he was waiting for someone.

additionally, back home, a young woman attorney who worked in ray's office claims to have seen ray driving out of their work parking lot in a different car as she left work early on friday. she remembers thinking if ray can leave work early, then i don't need to feel quite so guilty for doing the same.

but of course at this very time, other reports have him miles away!

i have always thought the woman was credible, but now i wonder if she worked in ray's office, why didn't she know that he had not been to work that day at all? that would have been my surprise, not that he was leaving early, but that he was in the parking lot after having not been there all day.

part of me wants to believe that ray has not been found b/c he does not want to be. but another part suspects foul play.

i am certain that for whatever reason LE did not do a full investigation on this case. i think we learned month and months after his diisappearance that LE had not checked his financial records, but were allowing his daughter to handle his finances. what is that about????

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

i have always thought the woman was credible, but now i wonder if she worked in ray's office, why didn't she know that he had not been to work that day at all? that would have been my surprise, not that he was leaving early, but that he was in the parking lot after having not been there all day.
I guess that might depend on how big the office is, how many people work there, what each person's duties are, etc. We've heard that Ray wasn't very sociable so perhaps she only saw Ray when there was need to do so. He may have stayed in his office and she in hers.

[Louisa]

Web site on Gricar case seeks to engage public

By Pete Bosak - pbosak@centredaily.com

A former prosecutor who worked almost 19 years with former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar broke her silence Monday on the investigation into his disappearance by launching a Web site in which she questions the investigation, the behavior of the Gricar family and the press coverage.

http://www.centredaily.com/116/story/148022.html

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Odd and interesting. Karen Arnold is the one that saw Ray leave early that day in a different car, right?

I don't know what it is but something's striking me weird with all of this right now. Ray disappears with a book left on his desk about replacing a DA. She sees him in a different car but no one interviews her or many other people that worked with Ray, including his best friend. Michael Madeira becomes DA and chooses not to reappoint Arnold. Arnold then launches a website critical of the investigation.

Why would LE not interview these people? Why did Arnold not launch this site before now?

So much time has passed and no one seems to be doing anything. I'm hoping that Arnold's site will do some good but I couldn't even find it while searching just now. This case is so frustrating. I wonder if we'll ever know what happened to Ray.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Here it is:

gricar.disappearance - LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY: The Ray Gricar Disappearance (http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/)

The first line on the page under the heading is:

“It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.”

--US Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson (1950)

and part of the closing paragraphs:

It would be great if something in this site, some minor detail, proves to be of assistance to those officially charged with finding answers. But its primary goal is to motivate ordinary Centre Countians to stand and demand the answers to which they are entitled.

Ray worked hard and long to make the voices of victims heard. It seems only somehow fair that at least one would be raised on his behalf.

[christine2448]

Ray worked hard and long to make the voices of victims heard. It seems only somehow fair that at least one would be raised on his behalf.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

I wish there were something I could do..I just don't know what.

[Gina_M]

Odd and interesting. Karen Arnold is the one that saw Ray leave early that day in a different car, right?


I was wondering that too, but then I found this on the previous page. It was Carolyn Fenton who saw him leave early:


The state police unit did not speak with Assistant District Attorney Carolyn Fenton, who said she saw Gricar in a parking lot behind the Centre County Courthouse at 3 p.m. April 15, 2005. She noticed he was not in his Mini Cooper or his girlfriend's car. She said she remembered because she felt better going home early knowing that the district attorney was doing the same. She was working as a law clerk for Judge David E. Grine at the time.

Police discounted Fenton's sighting because it did not fit their timeline of Ray Gricar being in Lewisburg.

Hopefully we will get some answers in this case soon!

[Gina_M]

From this article from last year:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3802.html

Fenton said she was about 15 to 20 feet away. Gricar was driving a gold or silver, metallic-colored car, not his Mini Cooper or Fornicola's Honda, she said.

...

This always bugs me too:

Centre County Criminal Court Administrator Cheryl Spotts was never interviewed by police. But she has long been struck by what she says was odd behavior by Gricar about a month before his disappearance.

"I remember distinctly a meeting we had, March the 9th," Spotts said. It was a meeting in the chambers of Centre County President Judge Charles C. Brown Jr. They were there to talk about a potential death-penalty case and set a trial date.

"It just seemed that Ray wasn't with it," Spotts said. "He was just looking around, which kind of shocked me because this was a death-penalty case."

At one point, Brown told Gricar he had two weeks available in October for the trial.

"Ray just turned and looked at the bookcases," Spotts said. "He didn't even look at the judge when he said it.

"He just said, 'I won't be here,' " Spotts said.

What he meant is not known. That was a time of year Gricar sometimes would vacation in Vermont, Sloane said. Other sources also speculated that Gricar was referring to vacation plans. Gricar's 60th birthday was Oct. 9.

But his behavior left Spotts unsettled enough that she remarked on it to several co-workers at the time.



And now on Karen Arnold's page, she states that something seemed to be bothering Ray in the week before his disappearance. That she and her co-workers had all noticed it. :waitasec:




I have no doubt that Ray was deeply distraught about something the week of his disappearance. It went well beyond simple busyness or preoccupation.


Ray was always extremely busy, with people constantly in and out of his office running situations by him for input, preparing his own cases, and dealing with contacts by the public, police and media. He was sometimes abrupt in his answers, particularly when he was especially busy. But his mood during the week preceding his disappearance was of a different order of things. The very fact that it showed was unusual. Ray was normally good at keeping his 'game face' on regardless of what was occurring.



I was asked if I had noticed anything unusual about Ray's behavior that week, and told him that Ray had seemed distraught about something earlier that week. I was told that he had already talked to various other staff members before calling me and that "everyone is telling me the same thing". That response has stood out for me on each occasion when I have read media statements attributed to police that there was nothing unusual about Ray’s conduct that week.


http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/gricardisappearance

[luthersmama]

I just visited Lewisburg for the first time yesterday as I was driving back from Williamsport. I forgot to check for the name of the antiques mall that he was last seen in, so I couldn't find the exact place.

However, my impression of Lewisburg was much different than I had imagined. It is a really nice town with lots of shops, rehabbed victorian houses etc. Very busy place. Lots of places you could walk to from any place else in town. Kind of a classic Victorian era factory town that has remained very active and vital.

It struck me that Ray might have been coerced by someone into walking to their house. Maybe someone that he had prosecuted? Someone who lured him there for blackmail purposes? In any event, Ray could be in someone's freezer in Lewisburg at this point and the killer threw the computer in the river in hopes that it would lead to a presumption of suicide.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Sorry for the late notice but I'm watching Greta van Susteren on FOX News right now and on the bottom of the screen was a box saying that the Jonathan Luna case is coming up next. If anyone's out there reading, it might be an interesting segment that'll probably be on any minute.

[christine2448]

So sad....

HAVE you sent in your "7 Wonders of Centre County" choices?

There's plenty of time, with the deadline Sept. 2, but hundreds of readers are making their picks.

And dozens of things are being picked -- Grange Fair, the Nittany Lion shrine, those grilled stickes, and many, many more.

There's even a vote or two for Ray Gricar.

So much time remains, so many potential "Wonders" are out there.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/179176.html

[christine2448]

FYI...Ray's forum is now in Past Spotlight cases, you can view it here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=112

[izzyB]

FYI...Ray's forum is now in Past Spotlight cases, you can view it here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=112

this move was inevitable, but sure sad. i wish for a break in this case!

[SeriouslySearching]

This case needs to be solved. I read the entire site the assistant DA who worked with him put up and there were so many red flags there. It doesn't sound as if it were investigated as adamantly as it should have been, but then we don't know what they did or or didn't actually do. It is troubling.

How does a high profile person like Ray G. disappear with very few clues?!

[christine2448]

This case needs to be solved. I read the entire site the assistant DA who worked with him put up and there were so many red flags there. It doesn't sound as if it were investigated as adamantly as it should have been, but then we don't know what they did or or didn't actually do. It is troubling.

How does a high profile person like Ray G. disappear with very few clues?!

I agree, the investigation was botched, can't say whether it was intentional or not. If you read back to Ray's brother's comments and the fact that to this day LE/Investigators have not said a word about Carolyns (IIRC that is her name, the coworker) siteing of Ray which blows their original timeline, something is wrong with this, very, very wrong.

I am still convinced this is drug case related, whether he was taken out because he was getting ready to blow something wide open, someone retaliated that he pissed off, get in line, a lot of people in the drug world with prior dealings and prosecutions, again, IIRC, something fairly recent happened and someting fairly recent, like that coming Monday things were comign up, all drug related. Or he had to dissappear for some reason.

One other thing maybe....there is always the option that some abuser got him, he did A LOT of work for victims of abuse.

I still really lean towards paragraph one.

I don't think he just walked away....at times I have seasoned the idea, but I just can't get it to sit.

[twinkiesmom]

I was disappointed to see the thread gone from the CourtTV boards on her manuscript.

I think she was eloquent about Ray's character...I understand her point of view regarding the lack of leadership displayed after Ray's disappearance but think she took the internet message board thing too seriously. Any nationally renowned case generates its own wacko followers who try to insinuate themselves inside the investigation via the internet...Imagine if an investigator on the JonBenet case took the Bennett woman seriously...Oops that really happened!

After reading Karen's manuscript (and it is a manuscript because it is published on the web), I am more inclined to believe the murder theory. She made a big point about him not throwing county property (the laptop) into the river.

Likewise an honest, forthright, concerned with the victim type prosecutor is not going allow the waste thousands of dollars (if not more) on an investigation into his own fake disappearance or suicide. Frugal people (honest ones) are also frugal with other people's money entrusted into their care.

The one thing that makes me scratch my head is her near constant use of the word "paramour." What's her bone to pick with Ms. Fornicola to use such a word that has a lurid connotation over and over?

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

After reading Karen's manuscript (and it is a manuscript because it is published on the web), I am more inclined to believe the murder theory. She made a big point about him not throwing county property (the laptop) into the river.

Likewise an honest, forthright, concerned with the victim type prosecutor is not going allow the waste thousands of dollars (if not more) on an investigation into his own fake disappearance or suicide. Frugal people (honest ones) are also frugal with other people's money entrusted into their care.
These are very good points however if Ray did orchestrate his own disappearance or commit suicide, he wasn't necessarily thinking the way one would expect. Whatever would drive someone to do either of those things would probably be enough to cause that same person to disregard the responsibility he has to others' money or county property. Some things are big enough and/or powerful enough to make us behave completely out of character.

[dark_shadows]

this move was inevitable, but sure sad. i wish for a break in this case!

My dear IzzyB,:blowkiss:
I hold a great amount of Respect for you.
All of my Love and Respect,
dark_shadows

[izzyB]

My dear IzzyB,:blowkiss:
I hold a great amount of Respect for you.
All of my Love and Respect,
dark_shadows


Hello friend!!! thank you for your kind words. the feeling is mutual, i assure you. i have returned to a 50 hour work week and have not been posting much, but to try to read threads to "keep up with everyone". best regards to you. love, izzyB

[nappy2]

I believe this case has not been solved because the police and the FBI dont want it solved the question is why? I think there are people with a great deal of power that dont want this case solved. I believe the people who are supplying the drug dealers with their drugs are also the same people who dont want this case solved . I do believe the mafia have the power to pull the strings to make sure this case is never solved. Ray isnt just some guy off the street this he is a very important person and after all this time this case is no closer to being solved.:(

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

All of this time later, I still don't know what I personally believe but I don't think that you're alone in your beliefs, nappy. Something's seemed awry regarding the investigation of this case from very early on.

[christine2448]

I believe this case has not been solved because the police and the FBI dont want it solved the question is why? I think there are people with a great deal of power that dont want this case solved. I believe the people who are supplying the drug dealers with their drugs are also the same people who dont want this case solved . I do believe the mafia have the power to pull the strings to make sure this case is never solved. Ray isnt just some guy off the street this he is a very important person and after all this time this case is no closer to being solved.:(


:clap: :clap: :clap: yep

[nappy2]

Its so nice to see Ray hasnt been forgotten!

I believe someday maybe not today or even a year from now but this case will be solved .I truly believe what I write is pretty close to the way things
happend and why this case is not solved yet.

[Bobbisangel]

I haven't forgotten Ray. It is hard to believe that nobody has found even a little clue as to what happened to him. Did he really run into someone that knew him at that mall? Didn't someone see someone sitting in his car talking with him that day at the mall before his car was spotted? Someone who was smoking and there were cig butts on the ground on the passenger side? If that was the truth did LE take the butts and check them for DNA?

I don't believe that he committed suicide. Not after the affect his brother's suicide had on the whole family. It's hard to believe that he just walked away to start a new life too. Unless maybe he was afraid for his life then I could understand him walking away and not telling anyone where he was going for the safety of his family and girlfriend. I don't know how often that happens though. If he feared for his life why not go to LE and ask for protection and let them handle whoever he feared?

I hope that he is in hiding and will surface someday. My heart goes out to his family and how they must suffer everyday not knowing what has happened to Ray.

[Talisman]

I haven't forgotten Ray. It is hard to believe that nobody has found even a little clue as to what happened to him. Did he really run into someone that knew him at that mall? Didn't someone see someone sitting in his car talking with him that day at the mall before his car was spotted? Someone who was smoking and there were cig butts on the ground on the passenger side? If that was the truth did LE take the butts and check them for DNA?

I don't believe that he committed suicide. Not after the affect his brother's suicide had on the whole family. It's hard to believe that he just walked away to start a new life too. Unless maybe he was afraid for his life then I could understand him walking away and not telling anyone where he was going for the safety of his family and girlfriend. I don't know how often that happens though. If he feared for his life why not go to LE and ask for protection and let them handle whoever he feared?

I hope that he is in hiding and will surface someday. My heart goes out to his family and how they must suffer everyday not knowing what has happened to Ray.

Bobbisangel,

IIRC, there were unconfirmed reports that a man was seen leaning into the passenger side of the mini cooper while parked by the mall. If that truly happened that would explain the ashes and smell of cigarette smoke coming from the car. Ray was an avid non-smoker. Patty Fornica has said that Ray would not allow anyone to smoke in his car.
The cigarette butts you refer to were found outside of the car, initially police felt they had nothing to do with Ray Gricar's case.

This case has always stuck with me, also. I wish his disappearance would have been investigated more thoroughly in the beginning. IMO the police either had it planted in their heads it was a suicide or walk a way, they then stuck with that theory. Meanwhile, all the viable leads dried up. A blueprint for a cold case in the making. It's a shame because Ray Gricar deserved so much more.


Because this case will be 3 years old this April, much of the information that used to be readily available has been moved to newspaper archives.
The Collegian (Penn State student paper) actualy has quite a few articles about Ray Gricar archived.

I agree with you. Suicide just doesn't seem to fit Ray's character, from all that I have read about him.

JMO

[nappy2]

I just wanted to say one thing that really bothers me is that LE found five readable finger prints , Ray drove this car everyday and they only found that many? Just think of all the places you touch in your car everyday .

I think what ever happend to Ray was well thought out and I also believe who ever did this has done this kinda thing before . I also believe this was a dummy investigation and what I mean is to put on a good show for the public and that way there isnt a whole lotta questions asked and it look like they did thier job.

My guess is ray was taken care of before the car even got to where they found it, so who was driving the car and where are their finger prints? maybe they were wearing gloves or maybe the le didnt want to find the prints I dont know but one thing I do know is this case was a done deal before it even happend!

[nappy2]

What happend to Ray Gricar ?

[Bobbisangel]

I just wanted to say one thing that really bothers me is that LE found five readable finger prints , Ray drove this car everyday and they only found that many? Just think of all the places you touch in your car everyday .

I think what ever happend to Ray was well thought out and I also believe who ever did this has done this kinda thing before . I also believe this was a dummy investigation and what I mean is to put on a good show for the public and that way there isnt a whole lotta questions asked and it look like they did thier job.

My guess is ray was taken care of before the car even got to where they found it, so who was driving the car and where are their finger prints? maybe they were wearing gloves or maybe the le didnt want to find the prints I dont know but one thing I do know is this case was a done deal before it even happend!


Why wouldn't LE want to find Ray? What kind of person would have wanted him dead and then LE not really bother to do a through investigation? Could he be in that program where he changes his name, etc because his life was in danger or until they arrest a certain person? When they are in that program they aren't allowed to even contact their family. Did they ever check those cig butts for DNA? Did someone that knew Ray actually see him at that mall on that date? If someone that Ray put in prison murdered wouldn't LE want to catch the killer? This is such a mystery to me.

[nappy2]

Why wouldn't LE want to find Ray? What kind of person would have wanted him dead and then LE not really bother to do a through investigation? Could he be in that program where he changes his name, etc because his life was in danger or until they arrest a certain person? When they are in that program they aren't allowed to even contact their family. Did they ever check those cig butts for DNA? Did someone that knew Ray actually see him at that mall on that date? If someone that Ray put in prison murdered wouldn't LE want to catch the killer? This is such a mystery to me.

I believe LE was ether bought off or scared off by the organization who carried out Rays death and I believe LE did a quick investigation to make it look good before they swept Ray's case under the rugg and I think the people who killed ray was the people suppling drugs to the dealers. . They say they checked the cig butts but did they really? The protection program is a possible idea . There are somedays I think I got it figured out and other days I dont. This is such a strange case in the way everything happend I just hope Ray is okay or they catch who ever did this!

[christine2448]

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/crime_courts/story/356858.html

Human remains found in Bald Eagle State Park

Sara Ganim

The skeletal remains of a human were found Wednesday in Bald Eagle State Park.
State police at Rockview said the bones were found in Howard Township about 3:25 p.m. Wednesday. A forensic anthropologist determined the bones were human remains.
Centre County Coroner Scott Sayers said he and the anthropologist’s team sifted through the gravel and dirt and found remains, which Sayers’ office will attempt to identify in the next several months.
“They basically had somebody eye it up,” District Attorney Michael Madeira said. “As I understand it, it’s more bones and bone fragments than it is an actual body.”
Madeira said preliminary indications are the bones had been in Howard Township for a “long, long time.”
“More than five years, but that’s very preliminary,” Madeira said.

There are a number of unsolved missing persons cases in the county, most notably former District Attorney Ray Gricar, who has not been seen since April 15, 2005.

[Taximom]

It would be nice if this case could be resolved for his family and friends. Does anyone know how close this park area is to where he was last seen?

Thanks for the update, Christine.

[Pandora]

[QUOTE=Taximom;1938553]It would be nice if this case could be resolved for his family and friends. Does anyone know how close this park area is to where he was last seen?
QUOTE]

Total Est. Time: 1 hour, 1 minute
Total Est. Distance: 55.37 miles

[christine2448]

[quote=Taximom;1938553]It would be nice if this case could be resolved for his family and friends. Does anyone know how close this park area is to where he was last seen?
QUOTE]

Total Est. Time: 1 hour, 1 minute
Total Est. Distance: 55.37 miles

Thanks Pandora.

Is that time/dist. calculation from Lewisburg?

How about from court house where he worked(didn't his coworker/friend Carolyn see him at courthouse which would have thrown LE's timeline way off...they never investigated this IIRC)

[christine2448]

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/358768.html

Found bones at least 20 years old

Pete Bosak

Human skeletal remains found Wednesday at Bald Eagle State Park are old — so much so that state police said Friday they are unlikely to be connected to any missing person cases of the past 20 years, including that of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar.

The discovery of remains, found by people out for a walk along the lake, sparked speculation Thursday and Friday as to whether the remains could be those of Gricar, missing since April 15, 2005; Penn State student Cindy Song, who disappeared Oct. 31, 2001; or bartender Brenda Condon, who was last seen at the former Carl’s Bad Tavern in Spring Township on Feb. 26, 1991.
“We are fairly certain, and all of our preliminary reports from the anthropologist indicates these remains are not going to relate to any of those cases,” said state police Cpl. David Montresor. “The anthropologist believes they are much older. We are fairly certain they have nothing to do with any recent cases.”

[christine2448]

Skeletal remains likely not related to missing persons cases

Human skeletal remains found Wednesday at Bald Eagle State Park are older, so much so that state police said Friday they cannot be connected to recent missing person cases — including the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar.
(http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/356858.html)
The discovery of remains, found by people out for a walk along the lake, sparked speculation Thursday and Friday whether the remains could be those of the missing former prosecutor or two other Centre County missing persons, Penn State student Cindy Song and Spring Township bar tender Brenda Condon.
“We are fairly certain, and all of our preliminary reports from the anthropologist indicates these remains are not going to relate to any of those cases,” said state police Cpl. David Montresor. “The anthropologist believes they are much older. We are fairly certain they have nothing to do with any recent cases.”
The bones and bone fragments were found in an area that is under water most of the year, Montresor said, but became visible when water levels were drawn down during the winter. Investigators are looking into the location of cemeteries that were moved to make way for the dam and lake.
Condon, a mother of two, disappeared from the former Carl’s Bad Tavern in Spring Township, where she was working as a bartender, the night of Feb. 26, 1991. The next morning, her car still was parked outside and her cowboy boots were found in the men’s room.
Hyun Jong “Cindy” Song went out with friends the evening of Oct. 31, 2001, and was dropped off at her apartment at about 4 the next morning. She was never seen again, her purse, driver’s license and credit cards gone with her.

http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/mi.cdt00/News/Local;dcove=d;pl=story;lvl6=BreakingNews;loc=bts;p os=NTL3;sz=300x250;tile=3;ord=123456789? (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/mi.cdt00/News/Local;dcove=d;pl=story;lvl6=BreakingNews;loc=bts;p os=NTL3;sz=300x250;tile=3;ord=123456789?)
Gricar was months away from retirement when he took off work on April 15, 2005, and told his girlfriend he was taking a drive towards Lewisburg, where his Mini Cooper would be found abandoned, his laptop computer in the nearby Susquehanna River.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/358264.html

[christine2448]

Human bones found in a local state park last month have been determined to be those of two Native American individuals buried between 100 and 700 years ago.
The bones were found Jan. 23 in Bald Eagle State Park, about 40 minutes from Penn State. Although the discovery sparked discussion that the bones may have belonged to past high-profile disappearances, including former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar and Penn State student Cindy Song, authorities were quickly able to determine the bones were much older.
The bones were sent to forensic anthropologist Dennis Dirkmaat, of Mercyhurst College in Erie, for analysis.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/02/14/bones_discovered_of_ancient_in.aspx

[abstr]

I am so disturbed by this....I hope he is in WPP because otherwise he's being ignored

[christine2448]

Since Bellefonte police Detective Matt Rickard became lead investigator in the disappearance of former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar last year, he's read and re-read boxes of case files, police reports, witness accounts and forensic analyses.
http://media.centredaily.com/smedia/2008/02/26/08/513-022608gricarBust9.embedded.prod_affiliate.42.jpg (http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/v-story_images/story/426195.html?KeepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=400&width=600)
District Attorney Ray Gricar speaks at the Attorney General's office in State College Thursday. March 31, 2005



He's reinterviewing anyone who knew Gricar, or may have some idea of what could have happened to him. He's pondering whether there's any significance to the disappearance in Gricar’s apparent interest in the case of an Ohio police chief who vanished in 1985. At least two of Gricar's co-workers recall him talking about it a decade or more later.
He's considered the implications of there being no fingerprints identified as Gricar's found inside his abandoned Mini Cooper the day after he disappeared on April 15, 2005.
He's even, in the last month or so, read an out-of-print science fiction murder mystery, after its author pointed out what she said were eerie similarities to aspects of Gricar's disappearance.

After reading "20/20 Vision" by Pamela West, formerly Pamela Kraske, Rickard tends to agree.
"What does it mean?" Rickard said. "I don't know."

Very long but interesting article.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/426195.html

[SeriouslySearching]

Wish I could find a copy of that book myself. Interesting!

Glad someone is taking a fresh look at his case. I think it can and should be solved.

[curious1]

Still interested in this case. Still bugged by the fact that LE seemed to ignore or write off to many possible clues in the beginning.

As far as him being the WPP. At this point I would have to say no. Usually if it's someone high profile they make it look like a definite death I would think otherwise people, like us, would go around plastering his photo all over the place and someone would recognize him/her. LE found out about his brothers suicide years earlier and made up their minds that is what Ray did so they did not put much effort into the investigation. Then after public pressure they had to go back to the case and try to make themselves not look so incompetent. JMHO

[christine2448]

I have been thinking about this case a lot, the new guy, Matt Rickard...he seems interested in re-working this case.

I am going to call him. I am going to just ask him about the sighting of Ray by Caroline (yes?, is that her name?) at the office that no one would listen to. I am going to try and find all that info back on Ray's threads and gather it then ask him if he knew about this and if so, ok...lol, but, what if he doesn't know, forgot..remember this y'all?
Dumb idea?

[christine2448]

Awesome site with info/links to everything about Ray's case.

http://politigal.googlepages.com/


What was the girls name that saw him in the parking lot at work??

[christine2448]

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2008/04/15/gricar_missing_for_3_years.aspx


Former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar was going to retire at the end of his fifth term in December 2005.
"I have always wanted to retire at 60; that has been my plan from the start," Gricar told The Daily Collegian in 2004. "I want to get used to life without an alarm clock, not having to wake up and just enjoying things that I haven't had time for."
But three years ago today, Gricar disappeared.
"It's a daily struggle for everybody. We are three years out, and we recognize that it starts to get away from the public," nephew Tony Gricar said. "The difficulty is we never know when new evidence will pop up again, so it's really hard to get on with your daily life."
Tony Gricar and his family created a Web site, raygricar.com, for those who may want to provide information informally rather than directly to law enforcement.
"We are trying to move on, and we still have hope," Barbara Gray, Ray Gricar's ex-wife and the mother of their daughter, Lara, wrote in an e-mail. "Speaking for myself, Ray's disappearance has provided a lesson in acceptance. It has taught me again that nothing is certain in life."

[Mysteries Bother Me]

http://www.standard-journal.com/news/x833723656/Something-new-on-Gricar

"LEWISBURG — Montour County District Attorney Robert Buehner Jr. has scheduled a press conference for 2 p.m. today in Lewisburg concerning missing Centre County district attorney Ray Gricar."

Interesting this is not Centre County. This newspaper serves Lewisburg, PA.

[Talisman]

Thank you! Thank you for posting this information!

Interesting that Montour County's District Attorney scheduled this news conference and Centre County's DA knew nothing about it.

Hopefully there is something new about Ray Gricar's case.

[gaia227]

That is interesting - they wouldn't hold a presser if there was nothing to report, right? I have kept up with Gricar's case for the last couple years.
The re-run of the TruTv Show Haunting Evidence show was on the other night and they profiled Ray's case......of course that show must be taken with a boulder of salt and a chaser of lemon but it was still nice to see people are still interested and it is still getting publicity.

[T-Rex]

OMG--that's such good news!
Sadly, though, could it be to say they found his body?

[christine2448]

Lewisburg is where the antique shop was I believe. Anything?????

[T-Rex]

Hmmm, Tony Gricar, his nephew, posted a heads up about the news conference on InSessions, so I guess they didn't find Ray, or he would have said more.

[christine2448]

I just emailed Centre Daily News and reporter Pete Bosak and news desk asking them 'what's up'...I didn't get anything from them relating.

[T-Rex]

Oooh--I'm so glad other people are here on this thread watching!
Sometimes I think there should be a pager for breaking news!
MBM, thanks so much for posting that, and Christine, you rock for contacting the reporter!

[Mysteries Bother Me]

Do you use Google Alerts? http://www.google.com/alerts

You enter a search term in it (like District Attorney Ray Gricar missing), and it sends you an email with a link whenever it finds something new. I have this one setup as Type = News, and How often=as-it-happens, and I get an email whenever something new is found.

[christine2448]

Do you use Google Alerts? http://www.google.com/alerts

You enter a search term in it (like District Attorney Ray Gricar missing), and it sends you an email with a link whenever it finds something new. I have this one setup as Type = News, and How often=as-it-happens, and I get an email whenever something new is found.


Yes, that is why I came here to check on Ray's thread and saw you had posted. Thanks! :blowkiss:

[Talisman]

Any news about the press conference?

[christine2448]

Any news about the press conference?

Nothing, I can find nothing. No answer from paper yet either. :(

If we can't get anything, I'll see about making some calls when I get home. My family still has connections w/advocates in his office. They contact us every time step dad tries to get paroled or pardoned :rolleyes::bang:

[christine2448]

Bonner, Teresa <tbonner@centredaily.com> Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:00 PM To: Christine <christine2448@websleuths.com>
There’s a story on our Web site now, and more details to come later.

I can't find it still. I asked her for link and showed her what comes up when I search his name, nothing recent :(

[christine2448]

This just went up on TV news

http://www.wjactv.com/news/16761843/detail.html

Two officials said they believe a former Centre County district attorney was murdered and claim the case has been mishandled.

The current Montour District Attorney Robert Buehner and former Clinton County District Attorney Ted McKight said they believe Ray Gricar was murdered.

On Tuesday, Buehner and McKight said the case has been mishandled by Attorney General Tom Corbett and current Centre County DA Mike Madeira.

The pair claims that eyewitnesses were not talked to and the hard drive recovered in the Susquehanna River should be analyzed further. They also said they would like to see a larger agency take over the investigation.

[PrayersForMaura]

wow. Well that is not good :(

[gaia227]

Thanks Christine! We already knew the case was mis-handled! Having public officials come out and say it and call for action is a postive step.

[T-Rex]

Wow! But that's it, just They think? No particular evidence?

I think it was suicide, mainly because he didn't bring his laptop case to protect it; he had been sleeping a lot lately (possible depression); and there was a history of suicide in his family (his brother). Oh, and the page open to how to replace a DA.

[Talisman]

This just went up on TV news

http://www.wjactv.com/news/16761843/detail.html

Two officials said they believe a former Centre County district attorney was murdered and claim the case has been mishandled.

The current Montour District Attorney Robert Buehner and former Clinton County District Attorney Ted McKight said they believe Ray Gricar was murdered.

On Tuesday, Buehner and McKight said the case has been mishandled by Attorney General Tom Corbett and current Centre County DA Mike Madeira.

The pair claims that eyewitnesses were not talked to and the hard drive recovered in the Susquehanna River should be analyzed further. They also said they would like to see a larger agency take over the investigation.


christine,

Thank you for the link!

I am among the group of people that believe Mr. Gricar was murdered. Maybe something will finally change the investigation into the right direction.