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Jeana (DP)
06-02-2006, 10:41 AM
Now, I will try and respond to specific inquiries. I think justice2 brought up whether Darlie and Darin knew each other was serious on the night of June 5th/morning of June 6th, 1996. My opinion is that Darlie had been pressing him for money, so that she could buy the tickets that they soon would need, at least since June 1st (but probably since late May) because that is when Darin first went to the bank for a loan. I think she kept pressing him in the days thereafter until the whole matter came to a boil in the early morning hours of June 6th. Thus, I think they were both taking each other seriously that morning. On another issue, one person thought that it was interesting that I would look at multiple cases in order to come to my conclusions. The fact of the matter is that this technique is not new with me: profilers use it all the time to narrow down the type of person that they might be looking for. It is very useful because a criminal defendant, even a emotionally-disturbed, garden-variety sociopath like Darlie, simply will not be able to successfully manipulate what we have seen in several intruder cases, the pattern that can be distilled from those cases, and that pattern applied to the facts of a particular case. Indeed, it is also true that the State of Texas can't manipulate the pattern for its own uses, and, thus, if we detect a good pattern, then it should be fair to both sides, which is what I want. It also works in reverse because I have taken the focus off several suspects because they did not fit any of the "phantom killer categories" (financially troubled, emotionally conflicted, emotionally troubled). In this case, Darin is financially troubled, but I was able to put him aside as the killer because the killing itself does not appear to be for money and the physical evidence does not indicate that he is the killer, although he appears to be an accessory after the fact.

In regard to Dr. Sam Sheppard, I thank Mary 456 for bailing me out on that one. Dr. Sheppard is an emotionally-conflicted killer. Some people still want to exonerate him, but I donít think there is anyone who can explain why the other suspects would have to stage the crime scene, as Dr. Sheppard quite clearly did. Anyone who is interested should read Gregg McCrary's analysis of the case at www.crimelibrary.com. The reason that attorney Terry Gilbert and the son, Samuel Reese Sheppard, got to the wrong conclusion is because they started with the theory that Dr. Sheppard did not commit the crime. McCrary did crime scene analysis for a living and, thus, had a good idea about what he was looking at; Gilbert and Sheppard the son did not do it for a living and, thus, were discredited.

Another question that was asked was: does the Valerie Percy case belong on the intruder list? To me, that depends on your view of things. I think the authorities concluded that it was an "interrupted burglary," but it doesn't look like that at all when you closely analyze the evidence. The upscale location, a Chicago suburb, where that crime occurred was founded around 1891. Her murder was the first murder in the place in 75 years, the murder having occurred in 1966. I don't believe that there has been another murder there in the nearly 40 years that have passed. Valerie was struck in the head, apparently with a hammer, in order that the killer could stab her multiple times about the body. That indicates a specific intent to kill; the blows to the head likely occurred first and kept the victim from struggling with the assailant. Burglars are not usually that violent and like to keep their hands free to steal stuff, so it seems odd to me that the "burglar" was supposedly carrying a hammer, a knife, and the flashlight the stepmother described seeing. The coroner in the case concluded that the attack was personal and I agree. I also think from what we have seen in other cases that the killing did not involve financial troubles or emotional conflicts, and, thus, the killer is somebody who had a personal argument with Valerie that boiled over. The nightgown ending up around Valerie's shoulders, which one reporter said showed that the crime had "sexual overtones," is instead classic staging and, thus, the assailant was somebody who was afraid that if investigators took a look at the crime scene without that staging, they would have a pretty good idea of the killer's identity. Since the crime has never been solved and no trial has ever taken place, all I am saying is that the stepmother is a suspect. I believe that this case should stay on our list of "intruder cases" unless Jeana overrules me.

Finally, I think sharkeyes asked whether I would like to write a book about "phantom killer cases." Actually, if time ever permitted, I would like to write something much shorter, like a law review or law journal article, just to get the idea out there so that it could be expanded upon later on. My article would probably be called--and I am serious--"Tired of the Phantom" because I must have seen 25 or so cases involving the phantom. I am sure that we have not seen the last of the phantom or intruder. I haven't thought seriously about writing a book about the Darlie Routier case, but if I ever did, I would call it--and I am serious here, too--"Correct Killer, Wrong Reason." That title for some reason has been rattling around in my head.

I hope I answered most of the questions people had because I tried not to overlook anybody. As I indicated, I am not adamant about the solution I proposed, but I certainly felt we need to discuss it now, whether or not people accept it. I think your comments have been very intelligent and I look forward to reading even more responses, especially when the fourth and final section is published. Too, if anybody thinks that a case was wrongly included on the intruder list, which believe me was the tip of the iceberg, then don't hesitate to say so.

Goody
06-03-2006, 09:39 PM
Now, I will try and respond to specific inquiries. I think justice2 brought up whether Darlie and Darin knew each other was serious on the night of June 5th/morning of June 6th, 1996. My opinion is that Darlie had been pressing him for money, so that she could buy the tickets that they soon would need, at least since June 1st (but probably since late May) because that is when Darin first went to the bank for a loan. I think she kept pressing him in the days thereafter until the whole matter came to a boil in the early morning hours of June 6th. .........
You seem to let Darin completely off the hook. I don't see how any man could walk blindly into the carnage he did and then lie to protect a woman he wanted to leave. Most would be so horrified that any forgiveness at all
would be a long time coming and lying about it just wouldn't have been an option.
Why do you feel so comfortable labeling Darlie as a sociopath? Do you think all murders are sociopaths?

Goody
06-03-2006, 09:52 PM
There was am FBI profiler who testified at the trial. Brantley, I think he name was. Have you read his testimony?

Mary456
06-04-2006, 01:07 AM
[QUOTE=Jeana (DP)Dr. Sheppard is an emotionally-conflicted killer. Some people still want to exonerate him, but I donít think there is anyone who can explain why the other suspects would have to stage the crime scene, as Dr. Sheppard quite clearly did.[/QUOTE]

Or why Sam would be so vague about the intruder that he didn't even want to admit it could be human. My favorite part of his testimony:

Q. What did you do immediately upon hearing Marilyn's cry?

A. It awakened me and I initialized the attempt to gather enough sense to navigate up the stairs. (Sam had more than a touch of arrogance, and he was exploiting it to the hilt with this answer.)

Q. What happened?

A. I was engaged or grappled and hit from behind. ("Engaged" isn't an appropriate word, even by 1954 standards).

Q. What did you grapple with?

A. Something in front of me. (Uh oh, another Sam Screw-up...he was hit from behind, but the intruder was in front of him.)

Q. And what part of this something did you grapple with?

A. I can't say, again, definitely. I would say the upper part...I felt that I could visualize a form...a being...a biped."

Sam thought his big, fancy words & convoluted sentences would impress, even intimidate, the jury. Back in 1954, doctors were "gods" who could do no wrong, and he counted heavily on that sentiment.

Greg McCrary says it best, though: "Deceptive persons are approximately six times more likely to provide evasive answers than are truthful persons." That fits Sam and Darlie to a T.

Goody
06-04-2006, 07:09 AM
[QUOTE=Jeana (DP)
////////////Greg McCrary says it best, though: "Deceptive persons are approximately six times more likely to provide evasive answers than are truthful persons." That fits Sam and Darlie to a T.
You can say that again|! Anything that doesn't fit must have come to her in a dream and most conclusions are made by others so she can safely say she was not the one who came up with it, in case it later proves to be wrong. I think she also thought it would make her appear more innocent if she was not the one drawing conclusions so she put out just enough to point direction and let others come up with the conclusions. Like a wide eyed high school kid being questioned about where Daddy's wine has been disappearing to.

Jeana (DP)
06-13-2006, 07:21 PM
MORE REPLIES:

I have continued to look at the feedback and, although, I can't remember every comment, I can address some of the more interesting ones. A comment I saw more than once was that I was probably off base when I said that Darlie Routier had a miserable childhood. Well, I am willing to live and learn, and I suppose that I have to concede that maybe her childhood was not as miserable as I thought. I did not think it was very happy and I got the distinct impression that she was running away from it. I had to adjust my thinking that maybe it was merely the poverty of it, rather than general misery of it, that was causing her problems. I think the bottom line is this: there was something regarding that childhood that she absolutely did not want to return to. She engaged in the extreme behavior at that party when she was 16-years-old where she made up the phony attempted sexual assault story to get Darin's attention. Too, approximately one month before the murders, she apparently addresses her sons and writes in her diary, "I hope that one day you will forgive me for what I am about to do. My life has been such a hard fight for a long time, and I just can't find the strength to keep fighting anymore." (Quoted from Skip Hollandsworth, " Maybe Darlie Didn't Do It, Texas Monthly, July 2002). That entry occurred when the couple's money problems must have been very evident and indicates to me that she has spent a long time trying to escape from something and now she is afraid that whatever she was trying to escape is catching up with her again.

I am also willing to back off my claim that Darlie suddenly snapped after having her argument with Darin, and then went and stabbed the two children. That certainly was my initial feeling, but I agree with Jeana who said that it is more likely that Darlie fought with Darin, became angry for a little while well contemplating her argument with Darin, and then went and stabbed the boys. I agree that there was premeditation and also that it was not very lengthy.

One claim that I am not willing to back off, which was challenged by Beesy and Goody, is that she is a garden-variety sociopath because it is quite clear that she is one. I think there is some misunderstanding in this regard. Goody essentially asked whether I thought the incident at the party when she was 16 made her a sociopath or whether I thought all murderers are sociopaths (in other words, whether the act of murder makes a person a sociopath.) My response is that being a sociopath is more of a process. I indicated that I thought that Darlie was developing into one in her high school years; no later than that party did she start acquiring the one and only skill she had before she graduated from high school, the skill of manipulating people. She then ran off and married Darin, and continued to manipulate him by "pushing his buttons" every time she needed money and he wouldn't come across with it ("I think we need a separation, I'm going to go stay with my friend so-and-so.") After the murders, when her defense attorney, Doug Mulder, tells her not to take the stand and what will happen if she does, she ignores his sage advice and takes the stand because she knows that she will be able to manipulate her way past the jurors. (Too bad it didn't work.) She is still manipulating people today (Anne Good is one prime example) because I have seen her do interviews where she says things to the effect of, "I think some day I am going to wake up from this terrible dream" (translation: this could happen to you, too, folks) and "Why can't people see the truth?" (sorry Darlie, but too many of them can and that is why you are where you are at.) In her own mind, she is a world-class manipulator. I think both Goody and the State of Texas misunderstand sociopaths because the State of Texas said after the Randall Dale Adams "Thin Blue Line" case (prosecuted by Doug Mulder) that Adams was a violent sociopath. The problem is that people don't kill solely because they are sociopaths and not all killers are sociopaths; they kill because they are sociopaths and life spins horribly out of control, as it did in Darlie's case. One of my favorite books, Plain Speaking, by Merle Miller, is a biography of Harry Truman. Truman was discussing his relationship with General Douglas MacArthur, but he could have been talking about Darlie as well: "The American people always see through a counterfeit. It sometimes takes a little time, but eventually they can always spot one."

Darlie simply can't relate to another human being without manipulating that person to her own benefit. This pattern of behavior has been going on for at least 20 years. Feel free to conclude that she is not one, but I believe that she is and that the question is not close. I do acknowledge that it would be nice to get a psychological evaluation done of her, but I don't see that it will happen.

justice2
06-13-2006, 07:42 PM
Garden-variety psycopath. That's funny but a very good description. Not somebody that sits around trying to figure out how to murder everyone in their path.

And I agree. She is a psycopath. A psycopath that has no feelings and/or conscious and is always trying to figure out how they should act or feel, looking at others to see if they have succeeded. You can see it in her eyes in all her interviews. Trying to be one step ahead. Someone you might not figure out for years and years if she was part of your family or a good friend.

beesy
06-14-2006, 12:48 AM
One claim that I am not willing to back off, which was challenged by Beesy and Goody, is that she is a garden-variety sociopath because it is quite clear that she is one. I think there is some misunderstanding in this regard .
I have been after these people for months trying to talk them into believing she has one or many personality disorders, but it's not sociopath. I understand exactly what you are saying. Firstly, may I say that Sociopath in now referred to as Antisocial personal disorder. Here is the definition:

Antisocial personality disorder is a psychiatric condition characterized by chronic behavior that manipulates, exploits, or violates the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
Personality disorders are chronic behavioral and relationship patterns that interfere with a person's life over many years. To receive a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder,a person must have first had behavior that qualifies for a diagnosis of conduct disorder during childhood.The cause of antisocial personality disorder is unknown, but genetic factors and child abuse are believed to contribute to the development of this condition. People with an antisocial or alcoholic parent are at increased risk. Far more men than women are affected, and unsurprisingly, the condition is common in prison populations.Fire-setting and cruelty to animals in children are linked to the development of antisocial personality.
Symptoms: A person with antisocial personality disorder:

Breaks the law repeatedly
Lies, steals, and fights often
Disregards the safety of self and others
Demonstrates a lack of guilt
Had a childhood diagnosis (or symptoms consistent with) conduct disorder
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm

This is not Darlie at all. It's more common in men. Usually a habitual criminal, abuse to animals(NO) Darlie was a nice girl growing up. I don't see symptoms of early antisocial PD. Yes, she has some of the symptoms, but not enough to diagnose her with this very serious PDDarlie simply can't relate to another human being without manipulating that person to her own benefit. This pattern of behavior has been going on for at least 20 years. Feel free to conclude that she is not one, but I believe that she is and that the question is not close(what do you mean here: I think you left out a letter. Are you saying the question is closed or not closed). I do acknowledge that it would be nice to get a psychological evaluation done of her, but I don't see that it will happen
Agreed, which is why I and many others think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder
Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one's self.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
The cause of this disorder is unknown. Personality disorders are long-lasting patterns of behavior that cause problems with relationships and work. Narcissistic personality disorder usually begins by early adulthood and is marked by disregard for the feelings of others, grandiosity, obsessive self-interest, and the pursuit of primarily selfish goals.
Symptoms: A person with narcissistic personality disorder:

Reacts to criticism with feelings or rage, shame, or humiliation
Takes advantage of others to achieve own goals
Has feelings of self-importance
Exaggerates achievements and talents
Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love Darlie wanted to be an actress or model
Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
Requires constant attention and admiration
Lacks empathy
These are so obviously Darlie-like that I don't even need to provide examples.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm#Symptoms (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm#Symptoms)


Histrionic personality disorder involves a pattern of excessive emotional expression and attention-seeking, including an excessive need for approval and inappropriate seductiveness. It usually begins in early adulthood.
Causes, incidence, and risk factors: The cause of this disorder is unknown, but childhood events and genetics may both be involved. It occurs more frequently in women than in men, although some feel it is simply more often diagnosed in women because attention-seeking and sexual forwardness is less socially acceptable for women. People with this disorder are usually able to function at a high level and can be successful socially and at work. They may seek treatment for depression (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm) when romantic relationships end.They often fail to see their own situation realistically, instead tending to over dramatize and exaggerate. Responsibility for failure or disappointment is usually blamed on others.
Symptoms

Constant seeking of reassurance or approval house in perfect order
Excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotions Screaming like a banshee and collapsing at her sons' wake when she had not so much as shed a tear anywhere else
Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval
Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior While being interviewed by Frosch she pulled her knickers to the halfway down so he could see her belly button ring and her tattoo. Wearing a thong to a neighbor's garage sale got her lots of attention, so did mowing the lawn in it!
Excessive concern with physical appearance: The pounds of makeup and gallons of bleach she uses and her bought boobs make her hard to ignore
A need to be the center of attention (self-centeredness (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm)) again, the boobs, the makeup, the big hair. Crying rape when Darin didn't pay attention to her for probably about 10 minutes, if that long.
Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification getting annoyed with boys alot, doing things like shoving a cake in a child's face and that was in public.
Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear shallow to others again, perfect home, upset when home isn't perfect..very upset...shoes aren't allowed inside.
Opinions are easily influenced by other people, but difficult to back up with details
Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are I think that happened with Basia, a guess only though.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001531.htm#Symptoms
Darlie, the Drama Queen, everything is over the top with her. From her furniture to Popsicle stains.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I fail to see that she CLEARY has antisocial PD
It would help your point if you posted a definition just so people could read it at the same time they read your post.

Dani_T
06-14-2006, 01:39 AM
Agreed, which is why I and many others think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder
Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Behavior or a fantasy of grandiosity, a lack of empathy, a need to be admired by others, an inability to see the viewpoints of others, and hypersensitive to the opinions of others
Were you aware Darlie always wanted to be an actress or somehow famous? I think Darlie did feel for people, unlike a sociopath but had a hard time connecting with them. Darlie was very insecure. She was nothing if people did not look up to her. If she and Darin had gone broke, she would have lost her position(as the ones who made it) in the family. Darlie did not grow up in poverty.
and we can't forget
Histrionic Personality Disorder: Exaggerated and often inappropriate displays of emotional reactions, approaching theatricality, in everyday behavior. Sudden and rapidly shifting emotion expressions
http://www.focusas.com/PersonalityDisorders.html

Darlie, the Drama Queen, everything is over the top with her. From her furniture to popsicle stains. Screaming like a banshee and collapsing at her sons' wake when she had not so much as shed a tear anywhere else. While being interviewed by Frosch she pulled her knickers to the side so he could see her belly button ring and her tattoo. Crying rape when Darin didn't pay attention to her for probably about 10 minutes, if that long. The pounds of makeup and gallons of bleach she uses and her bought boobs make her hard to ignore. Wearing a thong to a neighbor's garage sale got her lots of attention!
I'm open for proof that I'm wrong.
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Hey Beesy,

I can see why you would tag Darlie with this label (though at the same time I think we have to recognise it is arm-chair pyschology at best). But what I don't get is how you go from saying she has a Narcissistic and Histrionic personality disorder to saying 'and so she is a murderer'. Is there evidence that this type of personality disorder often leads to violence on the part of the sufferer? What she did to those two boys is almost unimaginable. She killed her own children in cold blood. Whilst she might have been narcissitic and a drama queen I don't see how there is a direct link between that and the murders.

beesy
06-14-2006, 02:01 AM
Hey Beesy,

I can see why you would tag Darlie with this label (though at the same time I think we have to recognise it is arm-chair pyschology at best). But what I don't get is how you go from saying she has a Narcissistic and Histrionic personality disorder to saying 'and so she is a murderer'. Is there evidence that this type of personality disorder often leads to violence on the part of the sufferer? What she did to those two boys is almost unimaginable. She killed her own children in cold blood. Whilst she might have been narcissitic and a drama queen I don't see how there is a direct link between that and the murders.I've been editing my post for about 30 mins. go back and read it again I have never said she killed her children because she has these personality disorders. But, there are killers who have been diagnosed with them. It doesn't mean if someone has either or both they will kill. I would never consider myself knowledgeable enough to diagnose anyone. Jeana's friend is making a diagnosis which I believe to be incorrect. Do you believe Darlie is a "garden variety sociopath"? I don't so I am providing quotes, websites, and my interpretation of Darlie to show that I think she has NPD and HPD, not APD. OPINION ONLY! giving my opinion and backing it which is what I was taught to do on here. Cool?

Goody
06-14-2006, 02:22 AM
.
I have been after these people for months trying to talk them into believing she has one or many personality disorders, but it's not sociopath. I understand exactly what you are saying. Firstly, may I say that Sociopath in now referred to as Antisocial personal disorder. Here is the definition:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm


This is not Darlie at all. It's more common in men. Usually a habitual criminal, abuse to animals(NO) Darlie was a nice girl growing up. I don't see symptoms of early antisocial PD. Yes, she has some of the symptoms, but not enough to diagnose her with this very serious PD
Agreed, which is why I and many others think she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm#Symptoms (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000934.htm#Symptoms)




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http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001531.htm#Symptoms









Darlie, the Drama Queen, everything is over the top with her. From her furniture to Popsicle stains.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I fail to see that she CLEARY has antisocial PD


It would help your point if you posted a definition just so people could read it at the same time they read your post.

Yeah, but these definitions are not enough information to leap from a handful of examples to a label, esp since there are no real patterns. I would think an anti-social personality would leave behind all sorts of patterns leading to the killing of a loved one;

beesy
06-14-2006, 02:38 AM
an anti-social personality would leave behind all sorts of patterns leading to the killing of a loved one;
You're right, which is why I do NOT believe Darlie is a sociopath. Her only known criminal act is murder. The other symptoms are habitual criminals, sleeping around, that sort of thing. Jeana's friend is saying she is"clearly" a sociopath, but I don't believe it. He/she directly addressed us, Goody and I'm simply explaining why I think his/her diagnosis is wrong. I thought you'd address her friend's statement as well since you and I were singled out.
[QUOTE=Goody]Yeah, but these definitions are not enough information to leap from a handful of examples to a label, esp since there are no real patterns. I would think As for this, I never said she did have NPD or HPD. I would never diagnose someone like that. She presents with many of the symptoms. I am only providing examples of the symptoms I believe she fits.
I do NOT believe she is a sociopath, not at all. And I said "think" "might" "opinion" for NPD and HPD

beesy
06-14-2006, 01:33 PM
Garden-variety psycopath. That's funny but a very good description. Not somebody that sits around trying to figure out how to murder everyone in their path.

And I agree. She is a psychopath. A psychopath that has no feelings and/or conscious and is always trying to figure out how they should act or feel, looking at others to see if they have succeeded. You can see it in her eyes in all her interviews. Trying to be one step ahead. Someone you might not figure out for years and years if she was part of your family or a good friend. That's not a description, it's a diagnosis. Look at this list of symptoms for sociopath/antisocial/psychopath...it's called all 3 which is helpful(NOT)

A person with antisocial personality disorder:

Breaks the law repeatedly
Lies, steals, and fights often
Disregards the safety of self and others
Demonstrates a lack of guilt
Had a childhood diagnosis (or symptoms consistent with) conduct disorder
Far more men than women are affected
She obviously demonstrates lack of guilt, but do you see Darlie in the others? Are there rumors I don't know about of her sleeping around, stealing, "acting out" as a child? Fire-setting and cruelty to animals..... fire setting????? BAH!
There are other disorders in which the sufferer wears a mask. Disorders which fit her more than sociopath. Narcissism: selfish, look at me, able to function in society, I posted the symptoms in post #8. I am NOT saying she has NPD or HPD. but I am saying she does NOT have antisocial PD. To diagnose her with any of these, one must include Darlie's entire life, not just the murders and after.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/000921.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000921.htm)

justice2
06-14-2006, 02:10 PM
Well, debate definitions here all you want.

But Darlie is not socially normal. I stand by what I said.

beesy
06-14-2006, 03:03 PM
Well, debate definitions here all you want.

But Darlie is not socially normal. I stand by what I said. Those are symptoms, not definitions. The word "antisocial" does not have anything to do with being socially normal. If you are going on the broad statement of socially normal, then you are saying she has all of the personality disorders. None of those are socially normal either. You cannot pick one of the symptoms and say she has antisocial PD. We're not talking about a broken arm here. The symptoms I posted are symptoms of APD. Those are the symptoms given by experts who have studied all sorts of people over the years.

justice2
06-14-2006, 06:46 PM
Those are symptoms, not definitions. The word "antisocial" does not have anything to do with being socially normal. If you are going on the broad statement of socially normal, then you are saying she has all of the personality disorders. None of those are socially normal either. You cannot pick one of the symptoms and say she has antisocial PD. We're not talking about a broken arm here. The symptoms I posted are symptoms of APD. Those are the symptoms given by experts who have studied all sorts of people over the years.Symptons, definitions, diagnosis. Can't follow what you are saying here.

Goody
06-14-2006, 09:05 PM
an
You're right, which is why I do NOT believe Darlie is a sociopath. Her only known criminal act is murder. The other symptoms are habitual criminals, sleeping around, that sort of thing. Jeana's friend is saying she is"clearly" a sociopath, but I don't believe it. He/she directly addressed us, Goody and I'm simply explaining why I think his/her diagnosis is wrong. I thought you'd address her friend's statement as well since you and I were singled out.
[QUOTE] As for this, I never said she did have NPD or HPD. I would never diagnose someone like that. She presents with many of the symptoms. I am only providing examples of the symptoms I believe she fits.
I do NOT believe she is a sociopath, not at all. And I said "think" "might" "opinion" for NPD and HPD
Jeana's friend has made it clear that he isn't going to change hiis mind so I didn't see any need to address his comments again. You have changed your mind about this in the last few months, haven't you? I thought you were of the mind that she was sociopathic. Sorry if I misunderstood your position.

beesy
06-15-2006, 12:01 AM
Jeana's friend has made it clear that he isn't going to change hiis mind so I didn't see any need to address his comments again. You have changed your mind about this in the last few months, haven't you? I thought you were of the mind that she was sociopathic. Sorry if I misunderstood your position. No apologies luv
No, never sociopath. I have always felt she presents with Narcissistic and Histrionic PD. She has many of the symptoms of each. I am not saying she has one or both, but she does have symptoms. So you misunderstood which personality disorder I think she leans towards. No one will ever convince me she is a sociopath.
You're right about Jeana's friend, no need to wrestle with it, is there? I'm glad you see what I've been trying to say..thank you

beesy
06-15-2006, 12:04 AM
Symptons, definitions, diagnosis. Can't follow what you are saying here. Are you saying you don't understand the meaning of these words? I'm following Goody's suggestion to just leave it be.

beesy
06-21-2006, 09:21 AM
I'm glad you see what I've been trying to say..thank you by beesy


In case you took my sarcasm as beesy being a smart butt, I meant thanks for letting me clear it up!

Goody
06-24-2006, 01:11 AM
by beesy


In case you took my sarcasm as beesy being a smart butt, I meant thanks for letting me clear it up!
No problem

txsvicki
06-24-2006, 05:58 AM
Just adding my occasional opinions and questions. I also agree that Darlie has lots of the symptoms of a personality disorder. Has anyone seen any data on whether these things show up as a child or not? It would seem that the really dramatic and odd behavior would show up as a teen and on into adulthood where more and more stress of living happens. On the other hand, couldn't Darlie also be a psychopath since she dared to go ahead and plan the murders of the kids and also has everyone in her family believing her? I am sort of a differing opinion because I believe that Darlie planned the murders for at least a month and that the diary entry did not necessarily mean that she planned to kill herself but was going to kill the boys. I think she purposely allowed them to sleep on the floor downstairs and got them to sleep first. If Darlie were going to kill herself also, she could have done it easily and surely wouldn't have stabbed her arm to make it look like an assault. It could have been planned down to the necklace being on her neck to stop the knife from going in too deeply to the bad arm bruising and missing panties. Of course, being so dramatic, Darlie really did mess up with her staging and statements because she couldn't help herself.

beesy
06-24-2006, 05:08 PM
Just adding my occasional opinions and questions. I also agree that Darlie has lots of the symptoms of a personality disorder. Has anyone seen any data on whether these things show up as a child or not? It would seem that the really dramatic and odd behavior would show up as a teen and on into adulthood where more and more stress of living happens. On the other hand, couldn't Darlie also be a psychopath since she dared to go ahead and plan the murders of the kids and also has everyone in her family believing her? I am sort of a differing opinion because I believe that Darlie planned the murders for at least a month and that the diary entry did not necessarily mean that she planned to kill herself but was going to kill the boys. I think she purposely allowed them to sleep on the floor downstairs and got them to sleep first. If Darlie were going to kill herself also, she could have done it easily and surely wouldn't have stabbed her arm to make it look like an assault. It could have been planned down to the necklace being on her neck to stop the knife from going in too deeply to the bad arm bruising and missing panties. Of course, being so dramatic, Darlie really did mess up with her staging and statements because she couldn't help herself. I think most people begin showing signs of PD's during their late teens to early 20's. They are difficult to diagnose because of the overlapping symptoms and because most of us have some of the symptoms of every PD. But it's how many symptoms one has that tips the scales. And people can have PD's and not be killers or even criminals. They might have a hard time keeping friends, jobs, romantic relationships, etc. Darlie began showing symptoms of NPD and HPD around that period. :twocents:
I think Darlie had been thinking that her life and marriage would be better without the boys for a long time. But I don't think she actually planned it out, just maybe thought it'd be nice. She might have thought of stabbing them while they slept, but I think everything came together that night for her to stop fantasizing about it and really do it. I don't think she meant to be a victim though. I'm not even sure if that crossed her mind, but once she was injured she had to be.
The other symptoms of sociopath are why I don't think she is. Unless, there are stories about Darlie stealing and whoring around, stuff like that, I don't think she fits enough of the symptoms. I also think she has some capacity to care about a few others besides her self. Sociopaths are not always killers either. A ruthless business person who hoards every cent and steps on or sleeps with whoever is in his way, could be a sociopath.

txsvicki
06-25-2006, 06:22 AM
Thanks Beesy.

Jeana (DP)
06-26-2006, 06:01 PM
I would like to get back to focusing on what I believe caused the murders of the two children. I think to understand the two murders, we have to know: (1) what we are looking at and (2) what we are looking for. As I have indicated previously, I believe that what we are looking at is a jealous rage killing, which is a killing that will have less stab wounds than the more common type of rage killing, a homicidal rage killing. I say that because of all the murders I have read about, this one has about the fewest stab wounds I have ever come across. I think I have also indicated that the overturned vacuum cleaner, the smashed wine glass, and the sock in the alley were all done to try and make the crime look like it had an economic motive (an "interrupted burglary") and is staging, while the real crime had a personal motive, the stabbing of the two boys.

That brings us to what we are looking for. Given the relatively few number of stab wounds and the fact that despite a homicidal maniac allegedly being lose, there are no shots to the heads of either Damon, Devon, or Darlie, I have concluded that the assailant did not specifically intend to kill the murder victims, but was in a great deal of emotional pain and was trying inflict pain upon them. I believe rage is involved here, but a much more transient sort of rage than you find in a homicidal rage, which usually involves a large number of stab wounds. That is one of the most puzzling aspects of this case: if the assailant was so angry, why did that anger dissipate relatively rapidly? My conclusion on that point is that we are looking for a rage trigger (or as the former FBI crime scene analyst John Douglas called it "a stressor") that is not centered around the two children, but is somewhere else. In this regard, I think we need to understand two things about Darlie: she believes in her own mind that she is a world-class manipulator and her greatest fear was returning to that impoverished childhood. I also believe that on the morning of June 6, 1996, having pressed Darin for a week over getting money for the tickets to travel in the upcoming days and weeks, Darlie brought out the atomic bomb in her arsenal of manipulation: "I think we need to separate." Although that almost always worked, this time it backfired on her because Darin, who could not get the money and who had his back to the wall financially told her, "fine and don't come back." I think Darlie did a slow burn thinking about how her best manipulative trick blew up in her face and how she was going to have to go back and live with her mother. I believe that is when the emotional pain overwhelmed her--we have to remember that she has no coping skills since her parents never taught her any and she never developed any on her own outside of manipulating people to get what she wants--and exploded on to the two happy residents of Nintendo House.

Other people have indicated that they believe the motive was money, which I think was a backdrop but not the reason for the murders themselves, that Darlie got tired of raising the children, or I guess what would be the official reason, listed on her death penalty information sheet, that the two children were interfering with her lifestyle. My opinion is that none of those reasons would have caused the explosion of knife thrusts we see here because they are too general and are not reasons that one person would thrust a knife into another person four times and a second person six times (according to the autopsy reports). Instead, I was looking for some unexpected bombshell that fell on a person with no coping mechanism and the only thing I could find was the argument that Darlie and Darin had shortly before the two children were stabbed.

In any event, if people disagree, that's fine, but what I am curious to understand is the contradiction we see here: an obviously angry assailant who nevertheless had that anger dissipate rather rapidly to the point of only stabbing the children only a total of ten times. Don't get me wrong, I would not like to be stabbed like that, but in Illinois they are considering parole for a woman, who, with her lover, stabbed the woman's brother in 1976 a total of 87 times (the Patricia Columbo case). If Darlie meant to kill the two children, why do we see so few stab wounds and none to the head, so that she could have finished them off relatively easily?

sharkeyes
06-26-2006, 06:22 PM
....there are no shots to the heads of either Damon, Devon, or Darlie, I have concluded that the assailant did not specifically intend to kill the murder victims, but was in a great deal of emotional pain......

......If Darlie meant to kill the two children, why do we see so few stab wounds and none to the head, so that she could have finished them off relatively easily?IMO - she was aiming right where she knew she would do the most damage with the fewest number of stabs (chest/lungs/heart) and, she did not want their faces disfigured - looks mean A LOT to Darlie - the boys' wounds are easily covered by clothing in the casket; but, her neck would is easily seen, almost "displayed" - "look at me, I am a victim..."; there are times when I think she started out with the intent of only harming them - to manipulate and get attention as she had done in the past...but once she started she realized it is not easy to stab a sleeping child and not have that child wake up and see who is doing the stabbing - her own plan backfired on her.

I am interested in reading your thoughts/theories on whether Darin had any involvement.

Jeana (DP)
06-26-2006, 06:26 PM
IMO - she was aiming right where she knew she would do the most damage with the fewest number of stabs (chest/lungs/heart) and, she did not want their faces disfigured - looks mean A LOT to Darlie - the boys' wounds are easily covered by clothing in the casket; but, her neck would is easily seen, almost "displayed" - "look at me, I am a victim..."; there are times when I think she started out with the intent of only harming them - to manipulate and get attention as she had done in the past...but once she started she realized it is not easy to stab a sleeping child and not have that child wake up and see who is doing the stabbing - her own plan backfired on her.

I am interested in reading your thoughts/theories on whether Darin had any involvement.


Just wanted to reiterate that I'm not writing these opinions, but am posting for someone who cannot. I'll send along your post and will definately post any reply given.

sharkeyes
06-27-2006, 06:52 PM
Just wanted to reiterate that I'm not writing these opinions, but am posting for someone who cannot. I'll send along your post and will definately post any reply given.Thanks! I am very interested in his thoughts on Darin.....

Jeana (DP)
07-12-2006, 07:18 PM
Thanks! I am very interested in his thoughts on Darin.....


Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed. Some people have asked why Darin didn't turn Darlie in after the two murders. My thought is that he only had a matter of a few moments to decide what he was going to do and he chose to stand by Darlie for whatever reason. To me, the goal of "Team Routier" (Darlie and Darin) the whole time has been to walk away from this mess and get on with their lives. As for the location of the stab wounds, we may never know exactly why the two children were stabbed where they were stabbed, but to me, the goal appears to have been to inflict pain rather than specifically to kill. I don't think Darlie was doing enough thinking to decide how to stab them so they would look good in their caskets; rather, I think she was on emotional pain overload from some unexpected bombshell and that this is a "why don't you feel my pain" type of stabbing. The stabbing was just barely enough to kill the second child and there are some times I wonder how Darlie would have responded if he had survived and said, "Mommy stabbed me."

sharkeyes
07-14-2006, 02:18 PM
Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed.

I wonder how Darlie would have responded if he had survived and said, "Mommy stabbed me."
Would you consider the possibility that Darlie initially wanted this to be a "murder/suicide" in which she chickened out?

I am convinced that had one of those boys survived to tell the tale, Darlie would have implicated Darrin.

Goody
07-15-2006, 12:23 AM
[QUOTE=Jeana (DP)]Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed. Some people have asked why Darin didn't turn Darlie in after the two murders. My thought is that he only had a matter of a few moments to decide what he was going to do and he chose to stand by Darlie for whatever reason. To me, the goal of "Team Routier" (Darlie and Darin) the whole time has been to walk away from this mess and get on with their lives. As for the location of the stab wounds, we may never know exactly why the two children were stabbed where they were stabbed, but to me, the goal appears to have been to inflict pain rather than specifically to kill. I don't think Darlie was doing enough thinking to decide how to stab them so they would look good in their caskets; rather, I think she was on emotional pain overload from some unexpected bombshell and that this is a "why don't you feel my pain" type of stabbing. The stabbing was just barely enough to kill the second child and there are some times I wonder how Darlie would have

I see it entirely different, Jeana. I see the stabbings as a deliberate, methodical attack meant to kill. I don't think she ever considered their pain. I think she was so detached emotionally that she just did what she had to do to get the job done. The question for me is what motivated her to do it. I have a hard time seeing either one of these people in the emotional throlls you describe. Patsy Ramsey fell apart emotionally. Guilty or not, the reality of JB's death tore her up. I just don't see any of that in the Routiers and that tells me that they feel justified or have come to some kind of terms with it long before it actually went down.

Jeana (DP)
07-15-2006, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=Jeana (DP)]Here's the answer:

My opinion is that Darin was an accessory after the fact, that he helped with the staging. I don't know that Darin knew that Darlie would explode like she did. Let's remember that after that "suicidal thoughts" episode in early May, Darin sat with her and talked to her, but did not get her the professional help she obviously needed. Some people have asked why Darin didn't turn Darlie in after the two murders. My thought is that he only had a matter of a few moments to decide what he was going to do and he chose to stand by Darlie for whatever reason. To me, the goal of "Team Routier" (Darlie and Darin) the whole time has been to walk away from this mess and get on with their lives. As for the location of the stab wounds, we may never know exactly why the two children were stabbed where they were stabbed, but to me, the goal appears to have been to inflict pain rather than specifically to kill. I don't think Darlie was doing enough thinking to decide how to stab them so they would look good in their caskets; rather, I think she was on emotional pain overload from some unexpected bombshell and that this is a "why don't you feel my pain" type of stabbing. The stabbing was just barely enough to kill the second child and there are some times I wonder how Darlie would have

I see it entirely different, Jeana. I see the stabbings as a deliberate, methodical attack meant to kill. I don't think she ever considered their pain. I think she was so detached emotionally that she just did what she had to do to get the job done. The question for me is what motivated her to do it. I have a hard time seeing either one of these people in the emotional throlls you describe. Patsy Ramsey fell apart emotionally. Guilty or not, the reality of JB's death tore her up. I just don't see any of that in the Routiers and that tells me that they feel justified or have come to some kind of terms with it long before it actually went down.

Goody, remember those are not my opinions. I'm merely posting them for our buddy who can't. :blowkiss:

Goody
07-15-2006, 04:10 PM
Goody, remember those are not my opinions. I'm merely posting them for our buddy who can't. :blowkiss:
Oops. :blushing: Sorry. I did forget.

Jeana (DP)
08-07-2006, 09:53 PM
Jeana--here are some more responses. I am sorry it has taken me so long, but I am having to fight to keep up with my work. In any event:

Sharkeyes asked whether I would consider the possibility that Darlie initially wanted the killings to be a "murder/suicide" in which she chickened out. I actually did consider that exact scenario; indeed, I think I have looked at the killings from every angle I could think of. The reason I don't think she specifically intended to kill them is the wounds on the one victim, Damon. Of course, one could make the argument that she specifically intended to kill based on the wounds to Devon, which include two knife wounds to the chest. However, as to Damon, I simply can't conclude that six stab wounds to the back is a good way to kill a person if that is what you have in mind. We don't see any of the obvious "intent-to-kill" wounds on Damon, such as shots to the head (to soften up the victim to be killed) or the relatively large number of wounds that we see in other cases. There are wounds in other cases where there aren't head shots or large number of wounds, but the inference of an intent to kill is fairly unmistakable: Nicole Brown Simpson having her throat cut and Joel Kirkpatrick being killed in Lawrenceville, Illinois in October 1997 by 11-13 stab wounds, two of which were planted right in his aorta. His mother, Julie Harper, was acquitted by a jury in a second trial a few days ago and explained that an intruder broke into her house--she was a single mother--grabbed a knife from a butcher's block and started wailing on 10-year-old Joel for no reason at all. By contrast, stabbing a person six times in the back does not seem to be a good way to kill a person although it was enough to cause Damon's death.

Now, on to what Goody had to say: she says she sees the stabbing as a deliberate, methodical attack meant to kill. I have to respectfully disagree for a few reasons. As I indicated above, the stab wounds to Damon just are not a good way to kill a person. Also, if the assailant meant to kill the boys, why do we see only 10 stab wounds total on the boys and no more than six on either victim? That is about the most limited number of stab wounds on any victims I have ever come across and the assailant likely would not have run out of the physical energy to stab them more times if that is what the assailant had in mind. I think that is the great puzzle in this case: if the assailant was so angry, as is especially indicated by the devastating wounds to Devon, why did the assailant stop stabbing the boys after only 10 stab wounds? The only conclusion I can get to regarding "great anger" and "limited attack" is that the attack was being fueled a less intense rage, a jealous rage, not a more intense rage, a homicidal rage, and the rage dissipated fairly quickly because the rage trigger is centered around Darlie's argument with Darin and not around the two boys. If Darlie meant to kill them, I can't for the life of me figure out why, and explanations that it was for money or because they were interfering with her lifestyle are too general (she was already well aware of these problems) to produce the explosive anger we see in this case.

On another subject, I agree that the DNA testing should be conducted, but this is merely the fourth attempt to manufacture the intruder, the first three being Darlie on the 911 call ("we have to find the person who did this"), the staging to suggest that there was a struggle with the intruder, and the Bob Kee affidavit filed two years after the conviction in which he states that Darin talked to him about a burglary scheme shortly before the killings. Of course, Darlie is not in a position to oppose such testing, but even Darlie is going to have trouble explaining how testing could show the existence of what never existed in the first place.

mollymalone
08-07-2006, 10:50 PM
I could see where Darlie might dream up a possible, albeit stupid reason to kill the two boys as her motive that has nothing to do with insurance money.

They've finally admitted that they argued that night right? There was talk about a separation? Okay, what if in that arguement Darin decides he wants to take it further into divorce? Darlie has been able to dazzle or manipulate Darin since she met him. That she can't right at this moment makes her angry.

Perhaps the arguement did involve talking/yelling about divorce. Unkind things said on both sides. Perhaps Darin wanted custody of the boys. After all, he's very attached to them. Neither makes any effort to be civil, she stays downstairs and he goes on up to bed.

What if Darlie decides that if there's to be a divorce, she'll hurt him good. She'll take away something he has pride in, these two boys, his oldest sons. At the same time, she doesn't want to divorce, she wants him to be like he was before, and if someone attacked her and the boys, he'd realize he can't let her go, he loves her, needs her, their grief would draw them back together etc..

There have been crimes committed for reasons like these in the past, and not always in the throes of anger. Darlie could have acted on the spur of the moment with just that kind of lame reasoning, expecting everyone to just... believe her. She didn't have to be angry, she could have just coldly and calculatingly, murdered.

silentrose
08-08-2006, 10:01 PM
After eading this it all makes sense! You always want to beleive that there is no way a mother could do something like that to her children but after reading your post it seems so right on. Thanks! So many questions answered and the truth really rings true in it.

silentrose
08-08-2006, 10:03 PM
sorry......replying to Jeana's post

sharpar
08-08-2006, 11:29 PM
[QUOTE=txsvicki]Just adding my occasional opinions and questions. I also agree that Darlie has lots of the symptoms of a personality disorder. Has anyone seen any data on whether these things show up as a child or not?
[quote]

This is the voice of experience by proxy - I have several NPD 's in my family. Its a fairly new kid on the block, it was just included in the DSM ( the bible for dignosis used by mental health professionals ) in the late 80's even though Freud discussed it at lenght . Generally speaking N's & H's develop the framework of N or H in childhood, display the traits as a teenager or young adult and the traits become more pronounced as they age. Histronics have irrational fear of abandonment and make frequent sucidal gestures or self mulitate themselves ( the cutters) . There are varying degrees of N traits and prognosis is not good. N's never think anything is wrong with them. I also think Darlie has strong N traits but dont think she is full blown NPD. N's also are pathlogical liars, never accept any responsibility, devoid of empathy. N's are addicted to the reflection of their false self by others reactions. Its called narcissist supply and they need it like any other drug addict and will go to extreme measures to obtain it . Without that reflection back to them they dont feel they exist. N's see people as objects and objects are interchangable. Narcissism is a defense mechanism to keep the narcissist from experiencing his true self. Being out of touch with their true selves, not able to empathize makes all types of appalling horrific behavior possible. NPD is all prevasive it governs every aspect of their lives. Personality disorders are set rigid patterns of behavior that never change. N's never seem quite right, you feel uncomfortable around them, things dont add up - they dont react as other people would to simliar situations - because they are pretending to be someone else than who they really are. The N who wants to be famous will settle for infamy not knowing the difference. N's rarely commit sucide, as their real self died in infancy . It is no longer a functioning part of their personality.
There are many other traits as well but this give a very simplified primer on NPD and HPD.

There is a theory that these and the other disorders included in the Cluster B personality disorders are on a continum .
narcissism --------histronic--------psychopath

In no way is N a dimished capacity, they make the choice and know right from wrong they just dont think you are important enough to curb their
actions towards you.

mollymalone
08-10-2006, 09:49 PM
[QUOTE=Jeana (DP) As for the location of the stab wounds, we may never know exactly why the two children were stabbed where they were stabbed, but to me, the goal appears to have been to inflict pain rather than specifically to kill. I don't think Darlie was doing enough thinking to decide how to stab them so they would look good in their caskets; rather, I think she was on emotional pain overload from some unexpected bombshell and that this is a "why don't you feel my pain" type of stabbing. The stabbing was just barely enough to kill the second child and there are some times I wonder how Darlie would have responded if he had survived and said, "Mommy stabbed me."[/QUOTE]

If someone is intent on stabbing the three persons they encountered in the room, two of them children, and they repeatedly stab the children, they're not going to worry about where they stab the adult.

Note that Darlie had a boob job which she was proud of. None of her injuries were in the torso. They were on the arms and on her neck area. Whereas the injuries to the children were mostly in the torso.

We're supposed to believe that the attacker stabbed her in areas that would avoid her pride and joy?

cami
08-11-2006, 08:03 AM
We're supposed to believe that the attacker stabbed her in areas that would avoid her pride and joy?
__________________

Hysterical...you guys er gals kill me...aaaaaahahahahaha

mollymalone
08-13-2006, 09:01 PM
Hysterical...you guys er gals kill me...aaaaaahahahahahaI couldn't help but phrase it that way. :o

Wasn't there also an expensive arrangement of flowers that had been on the coffee table or somewhere that were "arranged" on the floor? Yet the coffee table was turned over? The flowers weren't spilled or mussed up? But the children were. It all reeks.

cami
08-14-2006, 08:49 AM
I couldn't help but phrase it that way. :o

Wasn't there also an expensive arrangement of flowers that had been on the coffee table or somewhere that were "arranged" on the floor? Yet the coffee table was turned over? The flowers weren't spilled or mussed up? But the children were. It all reeks.

There was an expensive silk flower arrangement but I don't think I ever read where they were arranged on the floor. They were knocked over but the stems of the flowers were not bent. I think that was the first red flag to the investigators....that this was a personal crime...the lack of property damage, no theft of the jewellery and wallet that was lying right out in plain site....just the murder of two sleeping boys.

Jeana (DP)
08-14-2006, 12:09 PM
"Expensive" flower arrangement????? It looks to me like it would cost about $40 at most to buy something like that. Nothing in Darlie's house looks like it costs too much money. Everything looks pretty cheap to me.

sharkeyes
08-14-2006, 04:30 PM
"Expensive" flower arrangement????? It looks to me like it would cost about $40 at most to buy something like that. Nothing in Darlie's house looks like it costs too much money. Everything looks pretty cheap to me.
I agree, there doesn't seem to be anything that could not be purchased at regular retail outlets - or flea markets - which is fine, I love flea market hopping and get some great deals (I think!). But what gets me is the boys bedroom, very sparse from the photos I have seen - the furnishing/decorating done in the rest of the house (including the master bedroom) does not carry over to the boys' room, IMO it looks "thrown together" rather than decorated, as though it did not mean as much to her as the rest of the house.

Jeana (DP)
08-14-2006, 05:26 PM
But what gets me is the boys bedroom, very sparse from the photos I have seen - the furnishing/decorating done in the rest of the house (including the master bedroom) does not carry over to the boys' room, IMO it looks "thrown together" rather than decorated, as though it did not mean as much to her as the rest of the house.


You noticed that too, huh? :(

Mary456
08-14-2006, 07:21 PM
But what gets me is the boys bedroom, very sparse from the photos I have seen - the furnishing/decorating done in the rest of the house (including the master bedroom) does not carry over to the boys' room

It's difficult to tell what Devon's room looked like from the angle of the photos, but Damon's was beautifully decorated...panelling, wallpaper with a border, nice headboard, coordinating comforter, etc. Very nice.

Here's a thought, though. If Drake was keeping Darlie awake at night (yea, right :crazy: ), why didn't they move his crib into Damon's room? Damon almost always slept in Devon's bedroom anyway, in the bunkbeds.

Jeana (DP)
08-14-2006, 07:51 PM
It's difficult to tell what Devon's room looked like from the angle of the photos, but Damon's was beautifully decorated...panelling, wallpaper with a border, nice headboard, coordinating comforter, etc. Very nice.

Here's a thought, though. If Drake was keeping Darlie awake at night (yea, right :crazy: ), why didn't they move his crib into Damon's room? Damon almost always slept in Devon's bedroom anyway, in the bunkbeds.


Didn't the two boys share a room? :confused:

sharkeyes
08-14-2006, 10:16 PM
It's difficult to tell what Devon's room looked like from the angle of the photos, but Damon's was beautifully decorated...panelling, wallpaper with a border, nice headboard, coordinating comforter, etc. Very nice.

Here's a thought, though. If Drake was keeping Darlie awake at night (yea, right :crazy: ), why didn't they move his crib into Damon's room? Damon almost always slept in Devon's bedroom anyway, in the bunkbeds.
I have only seen the photo of the boys' bedroom with the cheesy bunkbeds, little or nothing on the wall, etc. I will revisit my books to find a picture of Damon's bedroom; the photo I reference is marked "the boys' bedroom" and is located in MTJD. Do you have a link/reference to the photo of Damon's room?

Yes, there was enough room for Drake to have slept in a bedroom other than D&D's, how probable is it that Darlie preferred that Damon and Devon slept in and played in "Devon's room" so that she could decorate the room she "called" Damon's room knowing the likelihood of the boys 'making a mess' in it would be minimal....seeing as how she appeared to be compulsive about things being in place, cleaning....IMO

sharkeyes
08-14-2006, 10:18 PM
Didn't the two boys share a room? :confused:
I thought so too...I'll have to go back and research a bit.

Mary456
08-14-2006, 11:20 PM
Didn't the two boys share a room? :confused:

Hey, Jeana. Page 319 in MTJD shows Damon's bedroom. I wouldn't normally trust CWB to get anything right, but both "Precious Angels" (pp. 63-64) and "Flesh and Blood" (pp. 73-74) support it being Damon's room...although he was apparently too scared to sleep alone. He slept in the bunkbeds with Devon in another room.

I guess we really don't know which bedroom belonged to which boy, but there were two children's bedrooms on the second floor, one with bunkbeds and one with Disney characters.

Jeana (DP)
08-15-2006, 09:08 AM
Hey, Jeana. Page 319 in MTJD shows Damon's bedroom. I wouldn't normally trust CWB to get anything right, but both "Precious Angels" (pp. 63-64) and "Flesh and Blood" (pp. 73-74) support it being Damon's room...although he was apparently too scared to sleep alone. He slept in the bunkbeds with Devon in another room.

I guess we really don't know which bedroom belonged to which boy, but there were two children's bedrooms on the second floor, one with bunkbeds and one with Disney characters.


Thanks Mary~!!

cami
08-15-2006, 10:22 AM
"Expensive" flower arrangement????? It looks to me like it would cost about $40 at most to buy something like that. Nothing in Darlie's house looks like it costs too much money. Everything looks pretty cheap to me.


and tacky. I can't believe how tacky her rooms look, LOl, too overdone...

mollymalone
08-15-2006, 11:19 AM
Why was the child too scared to sleep in his own room?

I'd read somewhere, someone said it was an expensive flower arrangement, I don't recall seeing a pic of it or anything, hence my query. That's what really struck me about the crime at first. Staged, very little broken or knocked over.

You have two adults "fighting" supposedly, one following the other out through the room, into the kitchen and the perp goes out the door, and there's so little damaged, nothing missing and two children dead or dying, and the adult only injured.

mollymalone
08-15-2006, 11:26 AM
IMO Darlie was into acquiring the trappings of what she perceived as wealth. There didn't seem to be any forethought for sustaining that perceived wealth.

sharkeyes
08-15-2006, 01:57 PM
Thanks Mary~!!
Ditto! :D

Jeana (DP)
08-15-2006, 02:01 PM
IMO Darlie was into acquiring the trappings of what she perceived as wealth. There didn't seem to be any forethought for sustaining that perceived wealth.


Well, that's just it. She bought cheap stuff she thought looked "fancy" or whatever you want to call it. I liken it to very inexpensive bed and breakfast type stuff. You want it to look half way decent, but its probably that partical board quality furniture that you won't care too much if the guests destroy it. The most expensive "silk" flower arrangement I've ever seen was a few hundred bucks, and I wouldn't call that "expensive."

Mary456
08-18-2006, 10:11 PM
Thanks Mary~!!

You're welcome, Jeana and Sharkeyes. But don't give me too much credit. I had to look it up through thousands of notes which, I swear, will be organized some day. Maybe :)

StellaTravers
08-19-2006, 11:48 PM
I wonder if people with NPD share similar early childhood experiences. I have always heard the descriptions of NPD but never if anything influences its development

sharpar
08-20-2006, 12:07 PM
I wonder if people with NPD share similar early childhood experiences. I have always heard the descriptions of NPD but never if anything influences its development


NPD is a defense mechanism constructed by the person against childhood abuse frequently before the age of reason. One of the reasons why treatment is not very successful , its deeply rooted and an intregrated part of every aspect of their behavior and personality. All N's experience abuse either from parents or caregivers , peers even excessive bullying. N's choose this maligant self love , other children in identical circumstances may develop other disorders to cope with the trauma. Keep in mind that abuse is not always beatings and cigarette burns excessive attention and idealization withdrawal and smothering of the child are also abuse. See My post #38 for more on NPD. For in dept analysis google Sam Vankin who has written extensively on the subject and is a Narcissist. Its tragic, the narcissist is a predator and the victims often suffer post traumatic stress disorder and spend years getting over the abuse at the hands of the narcissist . You are unlikely to ever forget your interactions with one.

Jeana (DP)
11-20-2006, 03:41 PM
Darlie is in a most interesting position now--apparently the DNA testing is going to be conducted, but in my opinion that will merely slow the case down and is not going to produce evidence of an intruder. Previously, I had stated that there were four attempts to manufacture the intruder, but I think we can now add a fifth attempt because the business about the bloody fingerprint was also an attempt to convince people there was an intruder, although I think it was determined that Darlie could not be ruled out as the source of the print. In any event, all this shows me is that the defense understands the importance of the intruder because Darlie's case is sunk without one.

Unfortunately for Darlie, we have seen the approach she is taking now and I doubt it is going to work. I think we can call her approach the "two-track" approach. The first track involves a "stack the chips" approach. The defense is trying to get people so afraid that an innocent person will be executed that those people out of fear will suggest Darlie is innocent. The courts, however, will not overturn her conviction out of fear; they need evidence. Jeffrey MacDonald is taking the same approach, as his website says, "A wrongfully convicted man, an egregious miscarriage of justice." That is simply an attempt to instill fear, and it won't work for MacDonald, either. The second track I like to refer to as the "key that unlocks the door" approach. With that approach, the defendant, be it Darlie Routier, Jeffrey MacDonald, or whoever, keeps suggesting that the evidence is "out there, out there." This is an attempt to be released without ever having to produce the evidence that is, well, "out there." What I'm sure Darlie's defense team is aware of, but unwilling to admit, is that since Darlie has been convicted, she is presumed guilty on appeal and the burden of producing evidence is now on her. In order for Darlie to have a shot of going free, she has to produce the evidence that will exonerate her, namely, the intruder, but she isn't going to be able to produce it because it doesn't exist. The same goes for MacDonald; he is never going to be able to produce the necessary exculpatory evidence because it doesn't exist. A court is not going to overturn Darlie's conviction, or MacDonald's convictions for that matter, based on evidence that will always be "out there." That is why it is called the "burden of production."

Although there are some other cases where defendants have done similar things, the only one worth mentioning right at the moment is the Frances Newton case, which involved the woman executed in Texas in September of 2005 for shooting her husband and two children many years earlier, allegedly for insurance money. Frances Newton kept asserting that her husband, who allegedly had a long-time drug habit, was shot by a shadowy drug dealer named "Charlie" who was attempting to collect a drug debt from the husband. Frances Newton also tried to make people afraid that an innocent person was being executed and that "Charlie," who I don't believe was ever shown to exist, was, well, "out there." In my opinion, she was executed because she could never produce the evidence that would exonerate her. What I am trying to say is that Texas has been down this road before. I don't think I can fault Darlie's attorneys for trying the "intruder" approach, but let's keep in mind that without Darlie producing evidence, which can't be produced because it doesn't exist in the first place, Darlie likely will be executed.