PDA

View Full Version : Cheerleader in Hawaii - accident my arse!


gsquared
01-15-2004, 12:39 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040115_132.html

Accident??!! An 18 year old girl falls naked from the balcony of two men whom she had never met before and it's an accident? The evidence shows no sign of sexual assault? Probably because she managed to wriggle away from her tormentors for a moment and chose to jump rather than be raped - or she was pushed or thrown.

Casshew
01-15-2004, 12:47 PM
What do you want to bet those two young men beat it back to California ASAP?

Her family back home in NJ are in shock... so far away and helpless to do anything but sit by the phone :(

This is a very sad story

IdahoMom
01-15-2004, 02:16 PM
OK. My hinky meter's going with this one:

Young women are vain, she certainly would not commit suicide in the nude in a public place so far from home. Suicide is out for me.

These young men claim they fell asleep early in the night??? Excuse me, I have PARTIED in my time, and I stayed up until no more fun was to be had. Well into the wee hours of the morning! What young men will fall asleep with a night of partying ahead of them while on vacation in Hawaii with some cute girl in their room? And BOTH of them fall asleep? No way!! Absolutely not!!!!

This girl's parents must be devastated. Think of the trust they placed in others when their daughter flew across the ocean on that fateful trip. I hope some fur flies on this one!

bluehawaii25
01-15-2004, 03:39 PM
I don't believe this was an "accident" either. The police need to continue investigating these "young men". I hope they haven't released them to leave the state! Sounds like probably partying that got "out of control" and these guys had plenty of time to come up with a "cover up story" to tell the cops. Wonder if anyone in any of the adjoining rooms heard anything? I, too, feel very sad for the girls parents being so far away and thinking their daughter was going to be going away for a week and having a great time in Maui. The Hyatt in Maui is a wonderful hotel (I have been there many times over the years) and I am sure the owner and employees are also very saddened by this very tragic event.

gardenmom
01-16-2004, 04:01 PM
Do you think this was an accident like what if she had to puke and leaned her head over the balcony and got dizzy and fell? Doesn't explain why she was naked with two "sleeping" boys. I'd be curious to know where the clothes were found, were the ripped, stretched out, etc. Who else partied with them that night. Girls usually travel in at least twos. This is such bull. Who served them alcohol? Did the boys also consume alcohol. Were date rape drugs involved. ARen't there some that cannot be detected? Hmmm.....

nanandjim
01-16-2004, 04:25 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040115_132.html

Accident??!! An 18 year old girl falls naked from the balcony of two men whom she had never met before and it's an accident? The evidence shows no sign of sexual assault? Probably because she managed to wriggle away from her tormentors for a moment and chose to jump rather than be raped - or she was pushed or thrown.
You are right on target with my thoughts. Sorry, but you can't get me to believe that this was an accident with the girl being naked...

nanandjim
01-16-2004, 04:27 PM
What do you want to bet those two young men beat it back to California ASAP?

This is a very sad story
I bet they left pronto. It would not surprise me if the girl passed out, to awaken to see that her clothes had been removed, and she was trying to escape. Unfortunately, I just don't see how they are going to be able to prove anything--unless one of the guy turns on the other. However, I highly doubt this will ever happen.

Toth
01-18-2004, 07:31 PM
I've been concerned about this case. After all, rails are there; very few people fall off those hotel floors. She is young, she voluntarily went to their room, it was undoubtedly for sex.
I doubt anything happened. If she changed her mind, the two men might simply have told her ''too late to say no, now'' but they would have been unlikely to throw her off the balcony. And I can't quite imagine that even a slightly inebriated 18 year old girl not knowing its best to just lie there and stare at the ceiling while waiting for them to finish with her than to go traipsing around a hotel balcony.
Its very disturbing, but I don't see it as suicide and I can't quite see two young men tossing her out the window without having had sex with her first. Can't see any reason for tossing her out the window anyway. Hotels have cameras police would know which room she was in, the two boys are registered at the hotel. Doesn't seem a sensible murder plot.

nanandjim
01-18-2004, 08:57 PM
I've been concerned about this case. After all, rails are there; very few people fall off those hotel floors. She is young, she voluntarily went to their room, it was undoubtedly for sex.
I doubt anything happened. If she changed her mind, the two men might simply have told her ''too late to say no, now'' but they would have been unlikely to throw her off the balcony. And I can't quite imagine that even a slightly inebriated 18 year old girl not knowing its best to just lie there and stare at the ceiling while waiting for them to finish with her than to go traipsing around a hotel balcony.
Its very disturbing, but I don't see it as suicide and I can't quite see two young men tossing her out the window without having had sex with her first. Can't see any reason for tossing her out the window anyway. Hotels have cameras police would know which room she was in, the two boys are registered at the hotel. Doesn't seem a sensible murder plot.
Couldn't the young girl have gone up to the hotel room to continue the party and have more drinks? What if she was already drunk when she entered the room? What if she passed out on the bed, only to wake up with her clothes removed and she panicked? Being disoriented and trying to get away, couldn't she have run out on the balcony while being chased by the boys? There is no way that I believe this is an accident or suicide. The boys know more, but I highly doubt the true story will ever come to light.

bluehawaii25
01-18-2004, 10:45 PM
Heres an update as an attorney has now joined the investigation.

http://www.mauinews.com/news/story/0117202004_news04Attorney0117.asp

bluehawaii25
01-18-2004, 10:55 PM
I am not sure how to make that link show up so if anyone wants to read an update on this you can go to www.mauinews.com and click under local news and there are a couple of articles. One states an attorney has joined the investigation into the cheerleaders death. It provides a recent update.

CurrerBell
01-18-2004, 11:19 PM
The news article said those rails were so high one would have to climb over them. There's something very strange going on here; it doesn't add up. I wonder if she was drugged--some of those date rape drugs leave the body very quickly.

jat
01-18-2004, 11:42 PM
Just speculating here...but if this girl had been drinking, is it possible she could have been showing off by climbing onto the rails to do some type of pyramid type stunt. It would be stupid, I know, but I also know I was a pretty stupid teenager.

Casshew
01-18-2004, 11:45 PM
Just speculating here...but if this girl had been drinking, is it possible she could have been showing off by climbing onto the rails to do some type of pyramid type stunt. It would be stupid, I know, but I also know I was a pretty stupid teenager.

But naked??? This is one really disturbing death, I hope those boys cough up some real answers.

IdahoMom
01-18-2004, 11:52 PM
Here's another link:

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/15715.htm

and another, newer one:

http://starbulletin.com/2004/01/15/news/story7.html

Toth
01-19-2004, 05:58 AM
Couldn't the young girl have gone up to the hotel room to continue the party and have more drinks? What if she was already drunk when she entered the room? What if she passed out on the bed, only to wake up with her clothes removed and she panicked? She was not drunk, she was not 'tipsy'; she merely had been drinking.

I doubt that she would have panicked at waking up naked; she didn't go to that room for any purpose that involved not getting naked.

Toth
01-19-2004, 06:11 AM
Somehow, it seems VERY strange that two young men would notice that the naked girl is gone but fail to notice that she left behind her clothing and her handbag.

I'm sure most forum members are aware that the two young men were more interested in her body than her clothing, but its a bit hard to understand their having been so unconcerned with the departure of the girl in the first place much less her departure while naked. It appears they had several hours during which they could have altered the crime scene.

Perhaps this is the "entertainment" that they really had in mind for her all along?
Seems strange to do it from their own room though. And why would two weirdoes want to throw her off the balcony without her having been used first.

Toth
01-19-2004, 11:15 AM
Just speculating here...but if this girl had been drinking, is it possible she could have been showing off by climbing onto the rails to do some type of pyramid type stunt. It would be stupid, I know, but I also know I was a pretty stupid teenager. I don't think she intended to demonstrate her abilities while naked and vertical on a ninth floor railing; she went there to demonstrate her abilities while naked and horizontal on a ninth floor bed.

I think what may have happened is that she was not sufficiently skilled in such a situation and did not realize that once she had enjoyed the attentions of one of the young men she was not able to decline the attentions of the other young man. Alcohol, exhaustion or inexperience may have all combined to induce her to make an unwise decision regarding the attentions of the second man and he may have reacted more violently and in a different manner than would normally be expected in such circumstances. Rather than rape, he threw her out!

Toth
01-19-2004, 11:42 AM
Rather than rape, he threw her out! I know there are forensic techniques to determine with some degree of certainty if she were thrown outward from the balcony or toppled off it, but I imagine that takes time and there is a zone of uncertainty about such things anyway.

I just can't come up with any other scenario. The two men may have decided to 'hang together' on this. It appears she only had sex with one of them and may have been too inexperienced to know that in such a situation her consent to one is a consent to each of them or there may be trouble.

I can't see her geting out of the bed and 'thinking the balcony was the way to the bathroom' or 'taking her own life because one of them just told her he has aids'. She went with two men to their hotel room but had sex with only one of them. Thats risky behavior. She may not have known that. Or she may have thought the risk was solely sexual. It appears she may have had seven seconds to regret her decision to say no to the second man.

nanandjim
01-19-2004, 02:00 PM
...I doubt that she would have panicked at waking up naked; she didn't go to that room for any purpose that involved not getting naked.
I remember when I was a teenager. I was very trusting and naive. I could see this young girl being invited to the boys' room. Perhaps, she was just going to have fun and did find one of the boys cute. However, I just can't see this girl going to the room, thinking that she would have sex with one of them in front of the other one. Sorry, I just don't buy it. I can believe that they did slip something into her drink which made her pass out. Then, they undressed her. I just don't believe this girl is going to willingly get naked in front of two strangers.

Or, maybe she went to the room after being invited there by one guy, without knowing that another guy was already in the room. I might be afraid to go to a room alone with two guys, unless I brought a friend along. Now that I think about it, I would probably be afraid to go to a hotel room alone with one guy. But they were in Paradise, which may have caused her to let her guard down.

cole
01-19-2004, 02:40 PM
This is on one of the linked pages bluehawaii found

Preliminary testing showed traces of alcohol in Crossan's blood, Faaumu said, but don't show her level of intoxication.

According to this article, the toxicology reports won't be available for another week or two. This will tell the investigators the level of intoxication in the girls' blood. This may, or may not, provide an important clue. It's importance IMV rests upon what her habits are with respect to alcohol. If she's not used to consuming alcohol at all then any amount would make her more than a little tipsy. A large amount, particularly if she isn't a 'drinker', could definitely make her disoriented. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that she leaped off the balcony in a highly intoxicated state if it's shown she's not used to alcoholic beverages. It wouldn't have to be a conscious state of suicide but be an intoxicated state of not knowing what the hell you're doing.

That said, however, I'm suspicious that there may be another or even several others who were in that room that these two guys are not telling about. All 3 of these were underage to buy alcohol. Who supplied it? Was that somebody in the room? Are they protecting that somebody for a reason? Could that somebody really be the key to the mystery of what happened?

CurrerBell
01-19-2004, 03:47 PM
I'd like some background information on those two fellas. Does either have a record? Has either been involved in any kind of suspicious activity before? They were in Hawaii "on vacation." Where did they get the funding for this trip? How do they know one another; what is their past history together?

Toth
01-19-2004, 04:27 PM
All good questions, particularly the financial part. Are they on vacation from the violent world of drug dealing or from Seminary School? It makes a difference. From their ages, I assume they are merely from the town of Folsom and not from the prison there.
Most young men in a situation like that would rape the woman who tried to say 'no' to the second man after having said 'yes' to the first one. She may not have understood what was to happen or she may have tried to change her mind. If necessary, some men would have first made her fearful of some real damage to her face, but even with some of that happening, I don't think an 18 year old slightly tipsy girl is going to be unaware that its better to just lie there and stare at the ceiling while she waits for them to be finished taking turns with her. Maybe they tried some "creative persuasion" ie, threatened to drop her off the balcony and things went too far? I doubt such a 'creative persuasion' would have been necessary though. Most girls would know that the only way out of that hotel room without getting hurt would be to say 'yes' to whatever they wanted for as long as they wanted it, but the "hurt" would have been something like a fist to her face and the fear of it being more than just wearing heavy make-up for a few days. I don't think any 18 year old girl is going to realize its either "horizontal on the bed" or "horizontal on the ground floor cement".

nanandjim
01-19-2004, 05:14 PM
I thought that I read that one of the boys "tagged" along with his father for some kind of work-related convention.

Toth
01-20-2004, 01:04 AM
I've not seen that, but it sure makes sense. After all, they were in Hawaii. It was a resort hotel. There were parties going on. She met the two guys and phoned from their room, but apparently did not say which room she was in. She apparently intended to leave that room fairly soon and may not have intended any sex or atleast any further(?) sex. She was not alarmed in any way during the phone call and did not seem the least bit apprehensive. So how if that was her view did she get naked voluntarily if she was on her way back to her friends. I think when she tried to leave they decided it was time to 'party' with her and she may have had other views on that point.
However, it appears that there was no bruising indicative of a recent rape.

Toth
01-20-2004, 12:26 PM
I have an unconfirmed report that her alcohol test was twice the legal limit for driving an automobile in Hawaii. Even if this turns out to be correct, I see no way such a state of inebriation would have made the girl want to go waltzing along a ninth floor railing while naked.
It ofcourse calls into question the state of her ability to consent to the sexual activity and may indicate why there were no signs of forcible rape; she may have been too drunk to resist.

According to early reports the alcohol consumption was prior to entering that room.

Toth
01-21-2004, 10:56 AM
I can't believe the media inattention to this case and lack of further developments.

Nova
01-21-2004, 02:54 PM
Most young men in a situation like that would rape the woman who tried to say 'no' to the second man after having said 'yes' to the first one. (Emphasis added.)

Huh? Most? How do we could we possibly know this?

jat
01-21-2004, 02:59 PM
Most young men in a situation like that would rape the woman who tried to say 'no' to the second man after having said 'yes' to the first one.

Man, Toth, I'd hate to be your date!

Toth
01-21-2004, 03:03 PM
Man, Toth, I'd hate to be your date!Yes, I'm sure you would.
However, what I meant was that most men who are going to do anything improper are going to rape, not murder, her.
Very few men would murder in such a circumstance particularly with hotel cameras all over the place and being in their own room at the time. It just seems strange that they would throw her out the window.

Casshew
01-21-2004, 03:16 PM
We have to know a bit more about the girl too...
I am not trying to blame this girl.. but I want to share a story with you.

We had a "friend of the family" stay here for a month when she was taking a course nearby.. (she is 18) what a Drama Queen she was... and truly a bit of a headcase if you asked me.

She was obsessed with guys... and what they thought of her, she wanted them all to want her, and would not rest if one seemed not interested... she would call and bug and try to do things to make them interested, then when finally they wanted to date her... she would stand them up.

She would come home wailing and throwing tantrums because some guy in her typing class didn't say hi to her at lunch.. she was totally self absorbed changing her clothes several times in the afternoon, evening, primping for any mirror she came across.

She was here for about 6 weeks (LONG weeks) and pretty well had a date every night of the week, (sometimes 2 in the same night!)

She would complain if they didn't buy her gifts, bring her flowers, or call her.. she was constantly on her cell phone - I don't know how she kept them all straight.

If I had heard this story and it was about this girl.(the one who stayed with us) I would be thinking she went up to the room and had sex with the boys and then they told her to get lost and she freaked with a temper tantrum and dramatics... "I will kill myself" drama queen for bring rejected and maybe they were laughing at her... and something happend that she fell.

Maybe she was murdered? Maybe she was drunk and fell... but we need to know more about the girl's character as well as the boys.

Nova
01-21-2004, 05:21 PM
Sorry - didn't mean to nit-pick. I though you were expressing a dark view of men (unusually dark even for this forum)! :)

Toth
01-21-2004, 07:00 PM
Maybe she was murdered? Maybe she was drunk and fell... but we need to know more about the girl's character as well as the boys.True, but they are the ones who are alive and she is the one who fell 80 feet to cement. I don't think even a drunk girl would go out on a balcony naked and step up onto the railing. Trouble is, I don't think two guys who picked up a slightly tipsy girl in a hotel and took her to their room for sex would throw her off the balcony when she changed her mind. And if they did, I sure can't see them leaving her clothes and pocketbook in plain sight in their room.

turbosleuthing
01-21-2004, 07:39 PM
Toth I believe you said something along the lines of them joking around with her about if she didn't have sex w/them they would throw her over the balcony.

What if they were goofing around and they accidently did drop her........ Yikes........

Toth
01-21-2004, 08:43 PM
What if they were goofing around and they accidently did drop her. She bounces just as high as if they did it intentionally.

Particle_Beam
01-22-2004, 03:30 PM
just some quick things to throw in.

1) several people have fallen to their deaths at college hotel parties
(see the bans on rail climbing at daytona beach hotels for more info)

2) the darwin awards website has several stories about people who fall while
trying to get freaky on the balcony.

3) most people who plunge to their death cry out, no one in the whole hotel was up partying when this girl fell ? C'MON.

my guess would be this...girl gets drunk, meets a couple guys, they go up to the hotel room, more drinking and then it starts to get crazy. people head outside, checking out the balcony scene, maybe everyone takes thier clothes off and starts flashing the people below, and someone falls.

thats my guess.

Toth
01-22-2004, 04:39 PM
Seems inconsistent with the phone call she made in which she did not sound plastered and indicated an intent to rejoin her group shortly.

Particle_Beam
01-22-2004, 04:46 PM
i just searched about ten news sites, and looked at the same article represented across most of them, where do you get the source of that phone call ? any links ? im not seeing it anywhere....

corrected..

Police said Crossan met a male guest at the hotel and ended up in his ninth-floor room Sunday night.

Another guest found Crossan's nude body below the hotel's Lahaina Tower at about 7:45 a.m. Monday a little more than six hours after the teen had called a chaperon in her group, said acting Lt. Jamie Becraft. Nothing in the phone call indicated there was trouble, he said.



that leaves 6 hours of time, plenty of time for my scenario to have happened.
im going to stick with that. its still horrible, but another interesting point is that both men were arrested after they found inconsistencies in their stories, that is going to help the cops get to the bottom of this.

bluehawaii25
01-22-2004, 05:06 PM
Here's a new article today.

http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=2304

Toth
01-22-2004, 06:21 PM
I know there are forensic techniques to determine with some degree of certainty if she were thrown outward from the balcony or toppled off it, but I imagine that takes time and there is a zone of uncertainty about such things anyway.
It seems the coroner determined that she struck something on the way down and has concluded that since a suicide or murder victim would have cleared the obstructions, that she fell.
Therefore it is likely to be 'death by mis-adventure while intoxicated'.
Accident.

Toth
01-23-2004, 06:07 AM
Combination of jet lag and .17 alcohol from seven or more cocktails is considered to have impaired judgment and depth perception. All injuries consistent with a fall. No indications of date rape or forcible rape.

Particle_Beam
01-23-2004, 11:47 AM
i still can't help but feel that with inconsistencies in the two men's stories,
that they know something. maybe they were playing a drinking game or something and told her to go out there...there still could be some circumstance to cause her to be out there to fall.

im sure this will come out during any civil trial, where the burden of proof is not 'beyond reasonable doubt'

Toth
01-23-2004, 12:20 PM
im sure this will come out during any civil trial, where the burden of proof is not 'beyond reasonable doubt'Its highly unlikely that there will be any civil action. The deep pockets would be the hotel in Hawaii, the tortfeasors that you imagine engaged in drinking games or the like are young kids from Central California. There is no evidence of anything having happened in the hotel room other than sex and she may still have been sober enough to consent to that at the time it took place. No way to prove she was passed out at the time and no forensic indications of forcible sex.

Sunnmoon
01-23-2004, 03:00 PM
I don't know about you guys, and call me a lush, but I can remember times I have been so absolutely polluted, and tripped, fallen, fell off the toilet, fallen into walls. Said to myself (I promise God, I'll never drink like this again, get me out of here) Yes, I partied with the best of them.

I have been in this predicament in my 20's. I went home with 2 guys. Yep, did the naughty with 2 of them, and when I woke up....was terribly ashamed of what I had done! Only one would have shown up as having sex with me...if you get the picture. It could have been what happened to her.

Maybe she ran to the balcony realizing what she had done, (maybe she was going to get sick)....and inadvertently fell off. It could happen. I seriously don't imagine those guys threw her off the balcony for not wanting to have sex with them. The alibi of falling asleep sounds more like it after drinking. She awoke and for only reasons's God knows went out onto the balcony and for some reason ended up falling over.

IMO only - I think it was an accident.

:doh:

LadyLuck
01-23-2004, 03:41 PM
Sunnmoon, I think maybe you are correct. Maybe she went outside because she felt sick and leaned over to throw up and passed out. I have never been that drunk so not sure if this could be what happened but maybe.

Toth
01-23-2004, 03:58 PM
I could accept most of it, but still have problems with waking up drunk as a skunk and feeling sick so therefore heading to the balcony rather than the bathroom.

It seems strange to think that two guys would toss her off the balcony rather than just raping her. Its also strange to think that she decided to go naked onto the balcony and then decided to climb the railing and then fell off.

Sunnmoon
01-23-2004, 04:04 PM
When you're drunk, do you care if it's the bathroom or the balcony. What's ever closest, or most convenient, perhaps she didn't want them to hear her getting sick (vanity at that age you know).

I have ventured out onto the balcony drunk and naked on more than one occasion. I think kids nowadays, are less modest. Maybe the situation was one of desperation. She could not find her clothes, or was so drunk just needed some fresh air to sober up.....not trying to defend anyone. Just trying to figure out what happened.

I just feel sorry for her, her family, everyone involved. Alcohol is the cause of many such accidents.

After having been through this a time or two, I know my limits. And not every type of alcohol affects me the same. Tequila, gin and wine affect me in a totally different way than a beer or two......

Toth
01-25-2004, 12:15 PM
I would wonder one thing about this 'accidental death': would a drunken naked girl be traipsing along the balcony railing if the two guys were not there to watch her?
Why would she want to walk along the railing if no one could see her do it?

MsBee
01-25-2004, 01:30 PM
Twice as drunk for the driving laws in Hawaii. We are 0.8 in Illinois. 1.6+ might be super drunk for someone. Haven't we all wondered *Where are my shoes?* the next morning--or *How did we get home?*--or my favorite *I climbed a tree?* This poor girl may have staggered into the railing and plummeted over the edge. That is more palatible to me than being murdered. Then again if she started yelling and threatening but no one heard yelling.

I am just glad not to be that young any more.

Toth
01-25-2004, 02:39 PM
I do not think it is possible to go over the railing by simply staggering or falling against it; I think it takes some degree of climbing up onto it to go over it. Balcony railings tend to be rather high and this one looks like it would be hard to 'topple over' but easy to 'topple from'.

MsBee
01-26-2004, 11:33 AM
You are right, Toth. My mind has a low railing which makes no sense at all for a balcony.

I woke up thinking about the scenario in the middle of the night.

I don't buy the conclusion that if she jumped or was pushed she wouldn't have hit whatever. I am guessing she was already dead which is why she didn't scream and why her *dead weight* didn't allow her to go far enough away from the building to miss whatever she hit.

Toth
01-26-2004, 12:57 PM
There are no indications of any injuries inconsistent with the fall. No evidence of prior rape. No date rape drugs.
Apparently no one heard a scream, but that does not mean she didn't scream.

Toth
01-28-2004, 03:35 PM
Its official!!
Prliminary tests had indicated an absence of any drugs in her system. More complete toxicology testing has confirmed: no drugs, no date rape drugs, nothing. Just alcohol.

The Alcohol Control Board is attempting to determine who served the alcohol, it is not likely they will be successful in thier inquiries.

poco
01-28-2004, 06:01 PM
We have to know a bit more about the girl too...
I am not trying to blame this girl.. but I want to share a story with you.

We had a "friend of the family" stay here for a month when she was taking a course nearby.. (she is 18) what a Drama Queen she was... and truly a bit of a headcase if you asked me.

She was obsessed with guys... and what they thought of her, she wanted them all to want her, and would not rest if one seemed not interested... she would call and bug and try to do things to make them interested, then when finally they wanted to date her... she would stand them up.

She would come home wailing and throwing tantrums because some guy in her typing class didn't say hi to her at lunch.. she was totally self absorbed changing her clothes several times in the afternoon, evening, primping for any mirror she came across.

She was here for about 6 weeks (LONG weeks) and pretty well had a date every night of the week, (sometimes 2 in the same night!)

She would complain if they didn't buy her gifts, bring her flowers, or call her.. she was constantly on her cell phone - I don't know how she kept them all straight.

If I had heard this story and it was about this girl.(the one who stayed with us) I would be thinking she went up to the room and had sex with the boys and then they told her to get lost and she freaked with a temper tantrum and dramatics... "I will kill myself" drama queen for bring rejected and maybe they were laughing at her... and something happend that she fell.

Maybe she was murdered? Maybe she was drunk and fell... but we need to know more about the girl's character as well as the boys.


Right Cass, the old "friend of the family" story. I am glad to see though that you straightened your life out and have settled down. :clap:

Casshew
01-31-2004, 12:00 PM
Right Cass, the old "friend of the family" story. I am glad to see though that you straightened your life out and have settled down. :clap:

LOL Poco! it really was a friend of the family!!

She came home one day and said she was invited swimming at a boys house... she proceeded to have a 30 minute shower, and blowdry and curl her hair, full makeup and then her bikini with a little skirt... all to go swimming!

This girl drove me nuts! http://www.casshew.com/2spineyes.gif

Toth
01-31-2004, 01:09 PM
What's her phone number?

Casshew
01-31-2004, 01:13 PM
What's her phone number?

Men!! http://www.casshew.com/1bash.gif http://www.casshew.com/2confused.gif http://www.casshew.com/2rolleyes.gif

Imon128
01-31-2004, 01:19 PM
Some young girls, (and even old ones, from what I read) make a fool of themselves for a sexual circumstance and validation of their looks and/or money. SH's. One day they will grow up, hopefully, and get some new priorities and quit being judgemental of teenage circumstances/women/men. That is, give them a chance to grow up.

Casshew
01-31-2004, 01:25 PM
Sounds like Imons is talking from personal experience.. at lots of it at that! http://www.casshew.com/2roflmao.gif

LinnieB
01-31-2004, 01:26 PM
Sounds like Imons is talking from personal experience.. at lots of it at that! http://www.casshew.com/2roflmao.gif


:clap: Bahahhahahaaaaaaaa ! No doubt, No doubt !! :loser: :bang: :bang:

Babcat
02-01-2004, 01:54 AM
No way!!

Struck WHAT during the fall?

She most likely parties with the boys and gets good and drunk because she isn't used to drinking often. She's ready to call it a night and calls the room to tell her chaperone she is on the way back to her room. The boys get pissed because she is getting ready to leave and neither of them got "lucky"... so one of them rapes her... but her autopsy shows no signs of rape because alcohol is a depressant and relaxes the body. (Also ...more than one third of known sexual assaults show no physical proof of anything other than sexual intercourse.) Muscles that would normally tighten up and result in injury would be less likely to do so if she is drunk... especially if a pillow is held over her face to prevent others from hearing her scream and lack of oxygen makes her pass out for a few minutes.

She comes to, and starts fighting and screaming again. This time one of them gets scared and hits her in the head with an object, such as a lamp etc. Or perhaps she gets away for a moment and one tackles her and she strikes her head on a desk or nightstand as she goes down. She is knocked out cold, and unresponsive. Both boys now completely panic because they are in deep doodoo ...or maybe they even think she is dead. They might be able to convince the police she had sex voluntarily, but she is unlikely to voluntarily strike herself in the head. But if she fell off the balcony ...hmmm ...that would explain the head injury ...right? Most likely such a long fall would destroy her skull and render the first injury undetectable.

So the young criminal flunkies make the decision to cross the line to the ultimate final level. They hoist her unconscious body atop the balcony and push her over. Since it has to look like an accident and the hotel can now tell where her phone call to her own room had come from (if she used the room phone and didn't use a cell phone) ...they leave her clothes in the room, maybe even folded nicely as if she had voluntarily removed them. Then the boys either fall asleep, or pretend to, and play stupid the next morning.

Toth
02-01-2004, 02:06 AM
I like your style, but think there are some problems.
I too wonder about that phone call: she said she would be right there and I think that is what the boys did want to hear.
However, I think at best they would simply have told her it was too late to say 'no' and that she could simply stare at the ceiling until they were through with her. I do not see any sudden plan to drop her off the balcony even the boys had been drinking.
Her clothes were on the floor but were not neatly arrayed and that is troubling because even drunk girls with intense desires tend to take good care of their clothes particularly if they are going to be heading back to their room and possibly encountering a chaperone or a sister or friends.
This case is troubling.
I wonder if the sex was consentual, but have to rely on the reports that there were no obvious indicia of forcible sex.
I wonder if the voice indicated severe intoxication over the phone? Calm manner could be someone carefully fighting to avoid revealing her intoxicated state.
Most men who are going to do anything that is improper would just want the sex, not some weird thrill of watching a naked girl take a dive. Presumably they had other, more normal, things they would have preferred to do with a naked 18 year old girl's body than throw it out the window.

Toth
02-01-2004, 02:12 AM
Also ...more than one third of known sexual assaults show no physical proof of anything other than sexual intercourse. You got one of them citation thingies for that? It would still be rape if the woman decided to stop resisting. In a case like that, there might not be obvious signs. Perhaps situation like that contribute to the one third?

Babcat
02-01-2004, 06:09 AM
Hi Toth,

I read everything I could find on this on the net (instead of going to bed, so tomorrow will be a late morning :D ) and there are BIG problems with this case.

I personally think the biggest problem with this case is the ME. His original report states that there is "no sign of ANY sexual contact." Apparently the ME was unaware of the claim by one of these boys that he DID have "consensual" sex with Lauren. So there is one big detail he apparently missed. Even consensual sex with condom use will be evident mere hours after the act. And somehow I just don't see one of these boys fabricating sex with a girl who has just been found naked underneath his hotel window in a crumpled heap.

So... what else did this idiot miss? It must have been accidental or she would have cleared the building? Not if she were deliberately dropped over the balcony... conscious or unconscious. And that wouldn't be any accident.

And what is wrong with these investigators?? If they are indeed dealing with two innocent young men who really do not know what happened to this girl, did the police fail to impress upon them the importance of their full cooperation? Why are these boys back in CA while the Hawaiian police continue to search for the source of the alcohol consumed by these three kids that night?? What's wrong with this picture?

If you were clueless about this death, and scared because you are being questioned, and you knew...
1) you were suspected of second degree murder...
2) a girl you last saw naked in your bed was found dead... and still naked... eighty feet directly below your room...
3) her clothes and purse were still IN your room...
... ahem ...now, tell me you wouldn't be singing like a canary about everything the police wanted to know.

These boys were there on vacation. They knew NO ONE there, according to the one boy's father... nobody to whom they owed some sort of long term loyalty. The boys were nineteen and twenty, both underage to drink in Hawaii, just as the girl was. They both made statements to the police claiming that all three of them were drinking. (Hell... one was quick to offer up the "consensual sex" story even though the ME down the hall was telling the police no such sexual contact had even taken place!) And during this time, no one thought to ask these boys where they got the alcohol? I don't believe that for a minute. A statement was even made by one of the investigators that Lauren had not consumed her alcohol as "cocktails". If they KNOW that is the case, why are still looking for the SOURCE of her alcohol, and making the boneheaded assumption it was a DIFFERENT SOURCE than that used by the underaged boys?

Are we supposed to believe the boys REFUSED to tell the police where they had obtained the alcohol, a misdemeanor, when they couldn't have had any close personal relationship with this "source"? Are we to believe they would put their credibility in doubt, while answering to a MURDER CHARGE, for someone they couldn't have even known more than a few hours? And the boys did not say in their statements that they had been drinking earlier in the evening before meeting Lauren. They didn't say that Lauren told them she had also been drinking earlier in the evening. They said "we were drinking" referring to themselves and Lauren. Was Lauren walking around in the hotel, just hours after arriving from New Jersey, with a bottle of Jack in her pocket when she bumped into these two stellar gentlemen who coincidently had bottles stowed on their person? I don't think so. And even if that ridiculous story were believable in the least... are we to then believe the boys pass out in the room, and Lauren, still naked from consensual sex, manages to collect every bottle, every glass, every can that could possibly indicate alcohol was ever in that room and discards the containers OUTSIDE the room?? Now they have her walking around naked in the hallways of the hotel somewhere. And no one notices the nude woman in the hall? And she manages to pull off this stunt even though she is so disoriented from drunkeness that she accidently falls from a balcony, just minutes afterward, where the railing stands five feet tall.

Toth
02-01-2004, 07:42 AM
I do think the ME may have unwisely adopted a 'finding' that is least damaging to the tourism industry. A drunken girl falling is sad but not particularly bad for tourism, a girl being murdered on vacation in Hawaii is bad for tourism.

One point: its is GOOD that the ME did not know of the consentual sex statement. His findings should not be tainted by knowledge of witness statements.

Babcat
02-01-2004, 04:01 PM
Toth,

You are right... he shouldn't be privy to statements made by the boys before he does his examination. My remark about him being apparently unaware that his finding directly contradicted the truth was simply a quip meant to be sarcasm. I was pointing out that if the ME is seeing no signs that any sex occurred... and at the same time one of these boys is spilling that potentially damaging tidbit to police... it is an indication that this ME missed something that should have been obvious. And if he missed that, then all of his findings are tainted, IMO. His ability to make the right assessments is very much in question right now. It is not stated anywhere that this is a forensic pathologist serving as ME. It may be very questionable whether this ME has the qualifications to give an opinion on whether or not this young girl struck the building on the way down, or whether any of her injuries could have happened before the "fall".

Most MEs are NOT qualified to make those assessments. They conduct autopsies and tell whoever needs to know HOW the person died. It takes further qualifications to forensically piece together the events of an act. He can say there is an injury consistent with blunt force impact located at point X. But is he qualified to say that this injury is consistent with striking the building on the way down and consistent with NOTHING ELSE? This ME goes even further to surmise that had she jumped or been pushed she would NOT have struck the building... something that even a qualified forensic pathologist cannot say with certainty. This wreaks of cover-up to protect the hotel and the reputation of the area.

CurrerBell
02-01-2004, 07:14 PM
Excellent questioning, Babcat and Toth. I'm not at all satisfied with the way this case has been hastily concluded and hushed up. There has to be more here than we've been told so far.

Toth
02-01-2004, 11:27 PM
Tourism is big there... and the official finding is one that favors the tourism industry. Coincidence? Perhaps.

I find it strange that the police are not searching for the providers of the alcohol, only the ABC guys.

If that one guy who fessed up to having had sex with her used a condom, there might be some reason for the M. E.'s opinion.

I don't think its really going to be resolved. There is no one who wants the case to be continued, the hotel and the tourism industry generally want it to end.

It does seem a bit extreme to throw a girl who says 'no' off the balcony. Anyone inclined to doing anything improper would be more interested in getting some than in punishing the naysayer. And is sure seems strange that if they had tossed her off the balcony that they would leave her clothes and purse there and just sleep it off until the cops knocked on the door.

Could she have been disoriented? Its hard to stumble and fall over a railing. If anything happened she probably was ontop of that railing for some reason. However, despite what you may think about jet lag and alcohol, its not too likely that an 18 year old girl was traipsing along a hotel balcony's railing in the dead of night while naked. And if she got up to greet the dawn then she would have slept most of it off and merely been hungover. So if it happened in the dark, just how long were those two boys sleeping if off?

Toth
02-01-2004, 11:32 PM
His ability to make the right assessments is very much in question right now.Not by the Hawaiian Board of Tourism and Trade its not! An accident can happen anywhere. Such a tragedy. But a murder of an 18 year old girl who had just arrived at a Hawaiian Resort Hotel would be a very bad event to take place. Real bad for business. So I think a great many people on the Islands feel that he made the right assessment.

Toth
02-02-2004, 10:51 AM
You are right, the rather wimpy investigation into the alcohol seems to indicate that they don't really want to find out anything about the alcohol.

Also it does seem strange that the girl's clothes would be on the floor but all the booze containers would be discarded and discarded elsewhere. Now we don't know for certain what was consumed and what containers were involved, alot of conventions involve free flowing alcohol from various rooms. There might not have been any 'bottles' brought back to the room.

But it sure seems to be a dumb stunt to pull: get up on a railing while naked but when not even the boys in the room are watching you? Was she trying to get out of the room?

Jade
02-02-2004, 12:38 PM
My heart breaks for her parents.
I feel kinda bad speculating but do things like acid or ecstasy show up hours after consumption? Maybe acid & heights is an urban legend more often than reality [Art Linkletters daughter?]. Both of these drugs are popular with all types.
The call to the chaperone must have been a cover up. Who is going to call to say "I just met a hot guy and plan to get drunk" ? I have a teenager and I know some innocent looking girls are anything but innocent.
The no signs of sex may depend on how you define sex. They are much more creative these days and sex isnt always intercourse.

This also reminds me of a article I read on I think it was Gloria Vanderbilt's son who at first seemed to have committed a suicide jump from a balcony but may have been sleep walking.

Toth
02-02-2004, 01:38 PM
I believe Art Linkletter's daughter died as a result of a bad acid trip and more properly the ignorance of how to deal with someone on a bad trip.

I'm quite sure the girl would not have said 'I'm going to swill a whole lot of booze and be very creative in certain matters'.

Somnambulism is rather rare but usually does not involve lack of perception of dangers. Climbing over a ninth floor balcony and climbing over an obstacle that was in your way might however be viewed somewhat similarly.

Babcat
02-02-2004, 02:07 PM
Sleepwalking?? That is an interesting twist I hadn't considered. I have two nieces, one on my side and one on my husband's side, that were sleepwalkers. It can be a very real and dangerous problem for kids (and adults I hear) who are affected by it.

My sister's daughter, at the age of four, actually wandered from her upstairs bedroom, down the steps, through the house, and out the back door into the yard. Once there she preceeded to attempt to climb a four foot chain link fence, managing to get to the top before freezing in fear and screaming one blood curdling scream after another! It was 3:52 am... my sister says she will never forget the terror of waking to the distant sound of her four-year-old screaming and the image of the digital clock next to the bed. She thought her child was being abducted from the home. My niece, who was very verbal and communicated quite clearly at that age, remembered only "waking up" at the top of the fence and being terrified of how she could possibly have gotten there. She is twenty now and still remembers the event clearly. It may have been the scariest incident of her sleepwalking, but it wouldn't be the last.

The other niece, (my husband's brother's daughter) is one of identical twins. Her sister never had an incident of sleepwalking. I think that is curious. However this twin was the smaller, and weaker twin at birth, and also suffers from a hearing loss her sister does not have. I don't know if that is at all related to her sleepwalking. But when she was five, in 1991, we were visiting them in Pittsburgh. The girls had been in bed for hours when she walked out of her bedroom right past all of us adults talking in the kitchen late at night and straight to the steep stairway that led to the basement. No one realized, at first, that she was actually asleep. Her mother thought she had gotten up to get a drink in the kitchen. Only at the last minute did my brother-in-law realize she was going to tumble right down those steps and he caught her before she did. I thought my heart would stop. She was still not awake after he jerked her away from the stairs! He had to shake her somewhat to wake her up and she became very combative and talked nonsensically for a moment. When she actually became fully awake she started crying. It was bizarre... just like my sister's girl.

I'd love to know whether this girl who fell from that balcony has a history of sleepwalking. It could explain how it happened. But I still find it odd that she would call the chaperone and say she is on her way, only to change her mind and stay the night without calling back. Maybe she thought the chaperone would go to bed once she knew the girl was on her way to the room. I think it is odd that she wouldn't think they would look for her, though.

Lilybug1
02-05-2004, 03:58 PM
She is young, she voluntarily went to their room, it was undoubtedly for sex.
I doubt anything happened. If she changed her mind, the two men might simply have told her ''too late to say no, now'' but they would have been unlikely to throw her off the balcony. And I can't quite imagine that even a slightly inebriated 18 year old girl not knowing its best to just lie there and stare at the ceiling while waiting for them to finish with her than to go traipsing around a hotel balcony.
Its very disturbing, but I don't see it as suicide and I can't quite see two young men tossing her out the window without having had sex with her first. Can't see any reason for tossing her out the window anyway. Hotels have cameras police would know which room she was in, the two boys are registered at the hotel. Doesn't seem a sensible murder plot.

I have to say that this post is eerily reminiscent of the idea of that a girl asked for it she dresses or behaves a certain way. I whole-heartedly disagree with the notion that bc she voluntarily went to the room it was for sex. She may have been interested in one of them, but I hardly think she signed on for a gang-bang. I maybe she wanted to continue the party upstairs, continue hanging out, drinking or even kiss/hook up with one of the guys (and stop short of having sex). Or maybe to have sex - but you really can't know that just by the fact that she went to their room. I often find that the people who make these statements are older and have been long removed from the dating scene. Going with someone into their apt. or room does not mean you're going to have sex and find that most young people actually udnerstand that to think otherwise can result in criminal behavior.

Also, that statement that she should been smart enough to lie there and wait until they were done with her absolutely disgusting. Maybe she was smart enough to yell or try to get out of there. After all, if she did lie there and let them be done, and then she reported the rape. I imagine some would find it incredible that she didn't try to escape, run or yell. And they panicked and cornered in the balcony and then threw her over when she wouldn't give in. I sure it wasn't part of the plan and they would preferred to have their way with her, but maybe she didn't just lay back and take it as they expected.

I find it really unbelievable that they fell asleep with a young naked girl in their room and well she was bored bc they were sleeping instead engaging in the threesome she was looking forward to, so she decided to jump off the balcony to spite them. I don't know think so.