!!!!!!!!!! Patsy did it!!!!!!!!

[Vet4Bush]

Wanna see something real interesting? Count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the ransom note. Now count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the annual Ramsey Christmas letter written by Patsy.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/1996christmasnewsletter.htm

Interesting, huh!

Patsy was a journalism student!!!!

[wenchie]

Yeah, she wrote the note.

That's not much of a letter for a graduate student of journalism, though - is it?

[blonde1]

Yeah, she wrote the note.

That's not much of a letter for a graduate student of journalism, though - is it? But the movie references and the juvenile ransom stuff - is that a socialite writing? Did she ever show a literary side in the interviews?
The note seems like the work of someone whacked out, not a socialite hastily jotting a fake ransom note --
Did you notice her many quotes too? "real school" and "spare time" -- were there any quotes like this in the ransom note?

[wenchie]

But the movie references and the juvenile ransom stuff - is that a socialite writing? Did she ever show a literary side in the interviews?
The note seems like the work of someone whacked out, not a socialite hastily jotting a fake ransom note --
Did you notice her many quotes too? "real school" and "spare time" -- were there any quotes like this in the ransom note?

Personally, I wouldn't call that ransom note "literary" at all.

And (IMO) Patsy didn't act or talk like a "socialite".

The ransom note sounds like a wacked-out person trying to divert attention away from him/herself and onto an imagined kidnapper to me - and that's exactly who I think wrote it.

[aspidistra]

Personally, I wouldn't call that ransom note "literary" at all.

And (IMO) Patsy didn't act or talk like a "socialite".

The ransom note sounds like a wacked-out person trying to divert attention away from him/herself and onto an imagined kidnapper to me - and that's exactly who I think wrote it.
Yeah and how about the exclamation marks in Karr's yearbook writing. And the fact that we now know how feminine Karr really is. Many people thought over the years the note had to be written by a female or an adolescent. Karr has characteristics of both and it would show in his writing even if he tried to disguise it. And there's that lower case d.

The writing in the ransom note matches his way more than Patsy's.

[Lauren]

I will wait till all the handwriting experts come in. I just think it's weird that the same SBTC is in it. And Karr ain't the most masculine looking and appears a little light in the loafersthen. I read that yearbook and thought I don't know of any teenagers (male) that has handwriting like that or yarbles on as long as he did. Most are have a cool summer good being your buddy, short and sweet.

[Shelayne]

I will wait till all the handwriting experts come in. I just think it's weird that the same SBTC is in it. And Karr ain't the most masculine looking and appears a little light in the loafersthen. I read that yearbook and thought I don't know of any teenagers (male) that has handwriting like that or yarbles on as long as he did. Most are have a cool summer good being your buddy, short and sweet.

**chuckle**

I thought the same thing--his writing was way too elaborate. And his e's? The only e's I ever saw like that (and I did them, too!) came off the pen of a GIRL! At least back when I was in highschool. (I sound like my mother. :p)

[hollyjokers]

Next!!!!!!!!!!

[Show Me]

You want to see something shocking....check out Cherokee exemplar's of Patsy's handwriting on FFJ.

You will be amazed.....Patsy wrote the note.

[aussiesheila]

Wanna see something real interesting? Count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the ransom note. Now count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the annual Ramsey Christmas letter written by Patsy.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/1996christmasnewsletter.htm

Interesting, huh!

Patsy was a journalism student!!!!Yes Patsy wrote the note all right, no argument from me on that point. But she did not kill JonBenet, though she knew who did IMO.

[stonewall]

Yeah, she wrote the note.

That's not much of a letter for a graduate student of journalism, though - is it?
Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?

On the other hand, we have John Mark Karr's voice on tape fantasizing openly about having sex with dead children. Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a killer by the toe, which one should we pick? The Better Homes and Gardens variety or the child pedophile variety?

Exclamation points does not a killer make.:waitasec:

[Show Me]

Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?

On the other hand, we have John Mark Karr's voice on tape fantasizing openly about having sex with dead children. Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a killer by the toe, which one should we pick? The Better Homes and Gardens variety or the child pedophile variety?

Exclamation points does not a killer make.:waitasec:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

Stonewall click on the above link and go to page 8.....Patsy has much more in common with the ransom note than one exclaimation point!

[PagingDrDetect]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

A letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E.jpg

Another letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E2.jpg

A letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F.jpg

Another letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F2.jpg

A letter "i"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-I.jpg

A letter "n"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-N.jpg

A letter "p"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-P.jpg

The much discussed letter "q"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Q.jpg

A letter "r"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-R.jpg

A letter "s"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-S.jpg

A letter "t" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2b.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2a.jpg

Another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T.jpg

Yet another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T3.jpg

A letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U.jpg

Another letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U2.jpg

A letter "v"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-V.jpg

A letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y.jpg

Another letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y2.jpg

A letter "z" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Z.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Zb.jpg

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.

[sandraladeda]

good Lord, DrDetect!! That is uncanny! How could PR walk free all these years? How could anyone be vague about the possibility she wrote the RN?

What are the chances that there could be so many similarites to someone's handwriting, and they just happened to be in the house at the time of the murder!!

What can an IDI possibly have to say about this?

[englishleigh]

Between this and Steve Thomas' book, which I'm close to being done with, I'm beginning to lean more towards being an RDI unless they have something indisputable on Karr. Just their behavior alone following the murder....:doh: I mean, I knew there were many things that made the police look so hard at them, but this is unbelievable. Patsy wrote the ransom note!! Even if JMK killed her, I still think Patsy wrote the note!!! :eek: How that's possible, I don't know, but I wonder.... :razz:

[Show Me]

More matches than Karr's few letters.

Even where the letters run together...Patsy has Karr beat as the author of the ransom note.

[joeskidbeck]

I've always leaned toward RDI, but after seeing the handwiting analysis, I believe firmly that Patsy was involved. She may not have killed JB, but she did write that note.

[Old Broad]

Wanna see something real interesting? Count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the ransom note. Now count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the annual Ramsey Christmas letter written by Patsy.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/1996christmasnewsletter.htm

Interesting, huh!

Patsy was a journalism student!!!!

V4B you use quite a few exclamation points yourself!!
I do also by the way!! :)

OB

[joeskidbeck]

Ok, I know this is out there, but, could Patsy have awoke early that morning, went to check on JonBenet, found her dead, and just assumed that Burke or John had killed her? From there it would have been a plan to make sure the police thought it was a kidnapping gone awry. It's possible that Patsy went to her grave believing that her husband or son killed her daughter. Also possible that the 3 of them never really knew which one commited the crime, but stayed true to their story in order to protect the others.

[Mabel]

Wow. I have no idea if Patsy was involved in her own daughter's murder, but the similarity in that writing really can't be denied.

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by sandraladeda
good Lord, DrDetect!! That is uncanny! How could PR walk free all these years? How could anyone be vague about the possibility she wrote the RN?

What are the chances that there could be so many similarites to someone's handwriting, and they just happened to be in the house at the time of the murder!!

What can an IDI possibly have to say about this?
From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory. This link to that ONE handwriting analysis (and there have been plenty) has been posted here over and over again, and the IDI's for the most part have been entirely mum. This is what particularly bothers me about many of the IDI theorists here... they aren't interested in finding out who really killed JBR, they are interested in pointing at anyone who is NOT a Ramsey no matter what convaluted twisting of the facts that requires.

I HATE the idea that the parents had anything whatsoever to do with JBR's murder, but the FACTS are indisputable... your own eyeballs don't lie to you. There is no question whatsoever that Patsy wrote that phoney ransom note and at least SHE (if not JR) had something to do with covering up JBR's murder.

This is also what bothers me so much about the DA and various Ramsey investigators... they've SEEN this stuff and are STILL running off after an "intruder". This case needed a special prosecutor from Day One.

[TexMex]

Yeah and how about the exclamation marks in Karr's yearbook writing. And the fact that we now know how feminine Karr really is. Many people thought over the years the note had to be written by a female or an adolescent. Karr has characteristics of both and it would show in his writing even if he tried to disguise it. And there's that lower case d.

The writing in the ransom note matches his way more than Patsy's.


ITA aspidistra...as does Kobilinsky.

Also Karr was obsessed with the kidnapping of Polly Klass which was in 1993....IMO this also could have drawn him to lines from movies about kidnapping.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../25/lkl.01.html

KING: Dr. Kobilinsky, how much do you put into handwriting analysis if that comes up?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I'll tell you, Larry, handwriting analysis is accepted across the country in every court but being that said you have to understand it's not the same thing as DNA. And I think the reliability strongly depends on the capabilities of the expert of the analyst and what his training is and what kind of information he's looking at.

For example, looking at a yearbook that may have been 20, 25 years old, looking at that writing and comparing it to the ransom note, which was about nine and a half years old, you know, people's handwriting changes. It changes over time. So, you really have to have writing contemporaneous with the document that you're looking at.

But despite that, I have looked at these two documents myself. I have found a number of, a significant number of similarities with some very unusual letters and I've looked at the geometry and it seems to me I would say it's more likely than not that Mr. Karr was the author of that note. Again, I'm not a handwriting expert but I, you know, using various methods that's the way it looks to me.

[aussiesheila]

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory. This link to that ONE handwriting analysis (and there have been plenty) has been posted here over and over again, and the IDI's for the most part have been entirely mum. This is what particularly bothers me about many of the IDI theorists here... they aren't interested in finding out who really killed JBR, they are interested in pointing at anyone who is NOT a Ramsey no matter what convaluted twisting of the facts that requires.

I HATE the idea that the parents had anything whatsoever to do with JBR's murder, but the FACTS are indisputable... your own eyeballs don't lie to you. There is no question whatsoever that Patsy wrote that phoney ransom note and at least SHE (if not JR) had something to do with covering up JBR's murder.

This is also what bothers me so much about the DA and various Ramsey investigators... they've SEEN this stuff and are STILL running off after an "intruder". This case needed a special prosecutor from Day One.I am one IDI who is absolutely certain that Patsy wrote the note. So there.

[Show Me]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

A letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E.jpg

Another letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E2.jpg

A letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F.jpg

Another letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F2.jpg

A letter "i"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-I.jpg

A letter "n"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-N.jpg

A letter "p"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-P.jpg

The much discussed letter "q"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Q.jpg

A letter "r"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-R.jpg

A letter "s"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-S.jpg

A letter "t" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2b.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2a.jpg

Another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T.jpg

Yet another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T3.jpg

A letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U.jpg

Another letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U2.jpg

A letter "v"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-V.jpg

A letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y.jpg

Another letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y2.jpg

A letter "z" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Z.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Zb.jpg

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.

Far more matches than Nancy Grace's disqualified by a judge and not certified handwriting expert.

[stonewall]

More matches than Karr's few letters.

Even where the letters run together...Patsy has Karr beat as the author of the ransom note.
How can we come to the conclusion that Patsy beat Karr as the author of the ransom note when, to my knowledge, he has not been asked to write the ransom note word for word like Patsy was? Maybe the reason more letters match between Patsy and the note is because her sample writing was the exact duplicate and contained the exact words of the ransom note. I do not believe the year book writings did. You are not comparing apples to apples here. They need for Karr to write the note and then compare it like they did Patsy to get a better handle on who beat who.

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?

[TexMex]

How can we come to the conclusion that Patsy beat Karr as the author of the ransom note when, to my knowledge, he has not been asked to write the ransom note word for word like Patsy was? Maybe the reason more letters match between Patsy and the note is because her sample writing was the exact duplicate and contained the exact words of the ransom note. I do not believe the year book writings did. You are not comparing apples to apples here. They need for Karr to write the note and then compare it like they did Patsy to get a better handle on who beat who.

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?

Morning stonewall

I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity
that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.

[stonewall]

Morning stonewall

I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity
that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.
That's good information TexMex. I didn't know that. I suppose this is why most of the experts went with "inconclusive".

[Lurker Steve]

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory.And this doesn't apply to RDI's?

[Maybe So]

Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?

On the other hand, we have John Mark Karr's voice on tape fantasizing openly about having sex with dead children. Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a killer by the toe, which one should we pick? The Better Homes and Gardens variety or the child pedophile variety?

Exclamation points does not a killer make.:waitasec:

Good post. I'd have to vote to take a closer look at Karr before I would look at Patsy again. After all Patsy endured 10 years!!!! of scrutiny and wasn't taken to trial.

I think the writing in the note does resemble PR handwriting but it also resembles a lot of other people's handwriting too including some aspects of Karr's.

I just don't see a distraught mother who just killed her daughter sitting there conjuring up movie quotes to put into the note...... was Patsy known for quoting lines from movies a lot? Karr on the other hand he does speak in a rambling way with lots of fantasy thrown in.

If he wasn't in Boulder it can't be him............but other than that he makes the perfect suspect to my way of thinking. Place him in Boulder and I will be pretty convinced that he killed JBR.

[Maybe So]

Ok, I know this is out there, but, could Patsy have awoke early that morning, went to check on JonBenet, found her dead, and just assumed that Burke or John had killed her? From there it would have been a plan to make sure the police thought it was a kidnapping gone awry. It's possible that Patsy went to her grave believing that her husband or son killed her daughter. Also possible that the 3 of them never really knew which one commited the crime, but stayed true to their story in order to protect the others.

Same thing ran through my head a time or two when I would ponder if a Ramsey could write the note but not be the killer.

I wondered if they found JBR dead in the basement and were afraid police would think one of them did it even if they didn't. So they add the note. Sounds like a stupid thing to do....but who knows? Perhaps each secretly suspects the others...but doesn't really know for sure and they protected each other and screwed up the evidence of who really did it at the same time.

I sit on the fence in this case. Not sure who did it. Some days it seems Ramseys must be involved...other times I just don't think so. I see aspects of both which makes me wonder if what you say could actually be true.

The DNA under JBRs fingernails and on her underwear and what I believe are stun gun marks just piont away from the family to me. I don't buy the garment factory worker leaving DNA on the panties at all, how'd that get under her fingernails too? If a parent killed her I could see the hit on the head but I can't see them garotting JBR or stun gunning her. I also don't see Burke holding up to the questioning all those times if he knew a single thing either.

[Maybe So]

From what I've noticed here, IDI's simply don't look at anything that upsets their theory.

I gotta agree with the person who said that the same holds true of many RDI's. To the point that discussion of other possibilities often becomes impossible. The door is slammed on discussing the DNA, the stun gun marks, the shoe print (definately not Burke's), the palm prints etc.

I am a fence sitter but I believe an intruder is a distinct possibility. I also believe it possible Patsy wrote the note. I am open to almost anything that makes sense though many things do not make sense.

People need to open up to more possibilities. It's ok to have a theory....just don't chisel is in stone.

I think a lot of IDI's will admit that Karr may not be the right guy which is more give that I see from some who think Patsy did it.

[wenchie]

Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?

On the other hand, we have John Mark Karr's voice on tape fantasizing openly about having sex with dead children. Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a killer by the toe, which one should we pick? The Better Homes and Gardens variety or the child pedophile variety?

Exclamation points does not a killer make.:waitasec:

JMK is obsessed with Jonbenet. He talks about her in a romantic way and believes he's in love with her.

The ransom note writer is obsessed with John Ramsey, and with images of violence and death (not love and sex).

Notice how JMK even seems to be in love with the name "Jonbenet", and yet the ranson note writer doesn't use her name once.

The ransom note looks (to me, anyway) like it's got an underlying message to John Ramsey: "I know you're going to figure out that this isn't really a kidnapping, but keep your mouth shut about it, okay?" Patsy practically spells it out for him at the end of the note - that it was written by her, and that he'd better play along with it or his life will be ruined.

If JMK had seem Jonbenet at a pageant and become obsessed with her - he would have seen her with her MOTHER, not her FATHER. Her father would have been an incidental figure to JMK. He would have seen Patsy's attachment to her daughter and played on that, not on John's relationship with Jonbenet (which he would have no knowledge of at all).

Not to even mention that he would have had no reason to write a note at all.......

[openminded1]

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?
As I have been looking at the note of late, I often remark how much it looks like my own handwriting as well. I swear I was nowhere near Boulder Co. at Xmas in 1996!!!!!

Did I hear or read somewhere that the ?1st wife? claims that Karr signed letters to her with SBTC?

[Peter Hamilton]

DrDirect--those links are amazing--I had only seen part of those comparisons before--How can there be any doubt that Patsy wrote that note??--How can anyone refute it?--

[Solace]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

A letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E.jpg

Another letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E2.jpg

A letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F.jpg

Another letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F2.jpg

A letter "i"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-I.jpg

A letter "n"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-N.jpg

A letter "p"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-P.jpg

The much discussed letter "q"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Q.jpg

A letter "r"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-R.jpg

A letter "s"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-S.jpg

A letter "t" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2b.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2a.jpg

Another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T.jpg

Yet another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T3.jpg

A letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U.jpg

Another letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U2.jpg

A letter "v"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-V.jpg

A letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y.jpg

Another letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y2.jpg

A letter "z" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Z.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Zb.jpg

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.
It is incredible!

[rashomon]

I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity
that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.
It would interest me what your opinion is after reading this (and what Solace quoted in the post preceding mine, I just saw her post):

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

To me all this screams that Patsy wrote the note.

SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the rasom note.

[TexMex]

It would interest me what your opinion is after reading this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
To me it screams that Patsy wrote the note.

SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the rasom note.


Hi rashomon

I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury.

There is no motive on the part of the Ramsey's to kill their daughter. There is motive for a pedophile intruder to kill her.

[stonewall]

JMK is obsessed with Jonbenet. He talks about her in a romantic way and believes he's in love with her.

The ransom note writer is obsessed with John Ramsey, and with images of violence and death (not love and sex).

Notice how JMK even seems to be in love with the name "Jonbenet", and yet the ranson note writer doesn't use her name once.

The ransom note looks (to me, anyway) like it's got an underlying message to John Ramsey: "I know you're going to figure out that this isn't really a kidnapping, but keep your mouth shut about it, okay?" Patsy practically spells it out for him at the end of the note - that it was written by her, and that he'd better play along with it or his life will be ruined.

If JMK had seem Jonbenet at a pageant and become obsessed with her - he would have seen her with her MOTHER, not her FATHER. Her father would have been an incidental figure to JMK. He would have seen Patsy's attachment to her daughter and played on that, not on John's relationship with Jonbenet (which he would have no knowledge of at all).

Not to even mention that he would have had no reason to write a note at all.......
Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.

[wenchie]

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.

I don't think she was calm. The thoughts in the note are all over the place, as if the person writing it were under pressure and had to keep pulling themselves back to the thought at hand.

Patsy may have sat there for several hours, distraught, panicked, and confused. I believe there was only one draft of the letter.

I think her survival instinct took over.

She may not have even lain the note there under a few seconds before she started screaming for John.

It never did make any sense that she would step OVER the note on a spiral staircase in the dark or semi-darkness. Why would you think that it was something that shouldn't be stepped on or picked up?

She was making sure that none of her fingerprints got on it once she had wiped it clean, IMO.

[sandraladeda]

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.I doubt a mother could keep her composure as she lies to the police and says her 2 sons have been carjacked by black men when in fact, she has driven them into a lake. Yet Susan Smith managed it.

I also doubt a mother could claim to have been accosted on a deserted road while driving late at night, and being shot, along with her children, when, in fact, she herself shot her children (killing 2, crippling the one survivor) and turned the gun on herself to lend credibilty to her lie. Yet Dianne Downs did manage to do so.

Neither mother exactly came unglued, concocting their lies to cover up ther crimes.

Perhaps Patsy Ramsey would have come unglued had she been questioned thoroughly in the day or 2 after JB's death, instead of being allowed to wait 4 months before sitting for a thorough police questioning session. Who knows?

[LaMer]

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.

Hi Stonewall :)

Maybe she could,---- if she had to, as in if JR had more to do with whatever caused JBR's death than PR. As wenchie stated, 'survival' and survival in the manner of which she was accustomed to living.

[LaMer]

I doubt a mother could keep her composure as she lies to the police and says her 2 sons have been carjacked by black men when in fact, she has driven them into a lake. Yet Susan Smith managed it.

I also doubt a mother could claim to have been accosted on a deserted road while driving late at night, and being shot, along with her children, when, in fact, she herself shot her children (killing 2, crippling the one survivor) and turned the gun on herself to lend credibilty to her lie. Yet Dianne Downs did manage to do so.

Neither mother exactly came unglued, concocting their lies to cover up ther crimes.

Perhaps Patsy Ramsey would have come unglued had she been questioned thoroughly in the day or 2 after JB's death, instead of being allowed to wait 4 months before sitting for a thorough police questioning session. Who knows?

Eggactly! to every thing you posted :) Remember, that evening, in company with their friends, PR said, according to PG, We didn't mean for this to happpen--along that line, and JR said, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, along that line. WHAT???? -strange- What could they both have meant if not what it appears?

[MysteryAddict]

DrDirect--those links are amazing--I had only seen part of those comparisons before--How can there be any doubt that Patsy wrote that note??--How can anyone refute it?--

Evidently some people don't want to believe their own eyes. You don't have to be an expert to see that the writing is identical.

I wonder if the investigators ever tried to confront Patsy
about the note by saying-

"Look Patsy we know you wrote the note but don't believe you killed your daughter.

Now tell us why you wrote it".

[JDB]

Hi rashomon

I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury.

There is no motive on the part of the Ramsey's to kill their daughter. There is motive for a pedophile intruder to kill her.
No motive ??? I think JonBenet and the pagents was for Patsy only.I read somewhere about the Life size doll Patsy got JonBenet for Christmas. I truly think that maybe Jon Benet wanted to be a normal little 6 year old girl. But because Mom wanted otherwise since it was what she did it caused problems.
I know we all heard how JonBenet was happy doing the pagents but that was from Patsy after the murder.Now what would be the chances that JonBenet told Patsy she did not want to go to pagents anymore.
TexMex and since JonBenet murder we have Yates and a few other Moms kill thier children. So we have to look at the side also.
How did Karr even know about JonBenet?

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by TexMex
I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note.Chet Ubowski was the CBI...

"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. (SMF P 197; PSMF P 197.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14). However, it has also been reported that Chet Ubowski of CBI wrote of one of her samples that 'This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.' Ubowski told investigators that the samples she gave 'do not suggest the full range of her handwriting.' Likewise, according to Internet poster ThePunisher, Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued over: 'Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey.' Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

TEN other experts said they were certain Patsy wrote the note... TEN. This lame excuse that the CBI gave Patsy a low probability score when Ubowski said that the only reason he didn't conclude 100% that the note was written by Patsy is because of the DISGUISED letters and bleeding ink from the felt tip pen used to write the note is ridiculous. TEN other experts say they are positive Patsy wrote the note. This is exactly what I mean by many IDI's going in circles trying to deny that Patsy wrote the note.

Originally Posted by LurkerSteve
And this doesn't apply to RDI's?Not that I've seen, no. From what I've seen here RDI's have backed up their assertions with facts... document transcripts, independent expert conclusions, photographic evidence, etc. Anything I've seen from most IDI's is based on an ADMITTED BIASED investigator working for free for the Ramsey's that can't even back up his OWN theories when questioned or presented with evidence that reveals his twisted logic, and even has countered some of his own assertions... Lou Smit.

MOST of what I've seen here in the few days I've even been here is the same arguments going around in circles with the same uninformed opinions cropping up over and over. I only really got interested in this case since the advent of Karr, and just in that small amount of time already have more FACTS about this case than most IDI's that have been here for months or even years. The pineapple, the bear, the size 12 panties, the stun gun, and on and on and on... I'm astonished that most IDI's here have never even LOOKED at any of the handwriting analyses and just yammer the same crap or stay silent. It's absurd.

With ALL the information out there about the ransom note and the handwriting analyses I'm STUNNED to discover that most IDI's have never even SEEN any of it and if they have are carefully refusing to say anything about it. I'm STUNNED to discover that so many of the IDI's that are so stuck on DNA evidence don't know a damn THING about DNA. I'm STUNNED to discover that so many IDI's have no idea what FACTS there are in this case and have absolutely no inclination to find out. I'm STUNNED to discover that even here in this thread there are those that refuse to believe their own EYES.

I just paged back to several months ago, and the same people were arguing the same debunked crap that they're STILL arguing today... PATHETIC.

Originally Posted by TexMex
I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury.Really? Then let's see them. Just in that ONE analysis that I provided a link to there are 62 or 63 (can’t recall which off hand) separate letter comparisons. Do a side by side letter comparison of the letters in the ransom note you believe are a match to Karr's and we’ll see how many you can come up with.... we'll wait.

Originally Posted by TexMex

There is no motive on the part of the Ramsey's to kill their daughter. There is motive for a pedophile intruder to kill her.That's ALL you have? No MOTIVE? How about the fact that many experts concluded that JBR had been not only sexually assaulted recently (within 48-72 hours before her death) but CHRONICALLY??? How about the blow to the head was accidental and the cover up was designed to absolve the Ramsey's from anything to do with the blow to the head? Physical evidence speaks for itself. There is PLENTY of physical evidence that points to an inside job and NOTHING that points to an intruder despite Smit's convoluted attempts to conjure one up.

:banghead:

And hey, if the link I gave doesn't give you warm fuzzies, try these...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7291

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/

[TexMex]

No motive ??? I think JonBenet and the pagents was for Patsy only.I read somewhere about the Life size doll Patsy got JonBenet for Christmas. I truly think that maybe Jon Benet wanted to be a normal little 6 year old girl. But because Mom wanted otherwise since it was what she did it caused problems.
I know we all heard how JonBenet was happy doing the pagents but that was from Patsy after the murder.Now what would be the chances that JonBenet told Patsy she did not want to go to pagents anymore.
TexMex and since JonBenet murder we have Yates and a few other Moms kill thier children. So we have to look at the side also.
How did Karr even know about JonBenet?


Hello to you too, JDB


There is no evidence that JB didn't enjoy pagents. I agree the parents should have been looked at ---and they were. For ten years. No evidence. IMO the chances a sick pervert did this are much more likely than her doting parents.

[JDB]

Hello to you too, JDB


There is no evidence that JB didn't enjoy pagents. I agree the parents should have been looked at ---and they were. For ten years. No evidence. IMO the chances a sick pervert did this are much more likely than her doting parents.
Hey Tex sorry Hello.I agree I do not even want to think the Ramsey's did this. But I do not see Karr doing it. I see a few sick man you has been obsseded with the case.
If he was a CP why was there only 5 pics found on his PC?
If he was seen at the bus station how did he get from the Ramsey's and be seen at 12:30 where the time of death has been stated 1:00 .
Other the this one so called sighting no one has said he was at the open House on the 23rd.

[openminded1]

I read somewhere about the Life size doll Patsy got JonBenet for Christmas.
I was under the impression that it was a My Twinn doll. My daughter has one of these. It is a doll that is made to look just like the little girl. They also sell matching outfits for the girls and dolls to wear.
http://www.mytwinn.com

[LaMer]

Very good post PDrD!

OH and Smit :doh:

[LaMer]

I was under the impression that it was a My Twinn doll. My daughter has one of these. It is a doll that is made to look just like the little girl. They also sell matching outfits for the girls and dolls to wear.
http://www.mytwinn.com

The 'doll' was one of items, PR wanted brought to her while she was resting/staying at the Fernie's home on the eve of the 26th! (your daughter is dead, and she is thinking about a doll?)


If I remember correctly, JonBenet was not real thrilled with the doll.

She loved her new bike tho :)

[TexMex]

Chet Ubowski was the CBI...

TEN other experts said they were certain Patsy wrote the note... TEN. This lame excuse that the CBI gave Patsy a low probability score when Ubowski said that the only reason he didn't conclude 100% that the note was written by Patsy is because of the DISGUISED letters and bleeding ink from the felt tip pen used to write the note is ridiculous. TEN other experts say they are positive Patsy wrote the note. This is exactly what I mean by many IDI's going in circles trying to deny that Patsy wrote the note.

Really? Then let's see them. Just in that ONE analysis that I provided a link to there are 62 or 63 (can’t recall which off hand) separate letter comparisons. Do a side by side letter comparison of the letters in the ransom note you believe are a match to Karr's and we’ll see how many you can come up with.... we'll wait.



Hello PDD


Let's see what the same experts say about Karr's writing...

I have seen TEN experts claim Karr could have written the note.

And there is no proof at all of chronic sex abuse of this child. In fact her pediatrician denies it.


http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

The judge wrote that the ransom note was taken from paper at the Ramseys’ home and written with a pen that belonged to them.

She wrote that both the Ramseys and Wolf agreed the ransom note was not an “ideal specimen” for handwriting analysis because a broad fiber-tip pen was used.

“This type of pen distorts and masks fine detail to an extent not achievable by other types of pens, as for example a ball-point ben,” Carnes wrote.

However, Carnes wrote that the handwriting in the ransom note was consistent throughout the entire writing, contrary to someone trying to hide their handwriting style.

“One of the most common means to disguise one’s handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text,” Carnes wrote.

Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

On a scale of one to five, with five eliminating someone from suspicion as the author of the ransom note, the experts placed Patsy Ramsey at 4.5 to 4.0, Carnes wrote.

[TexMex]

Hey Tex sorry Hello.I agree I do not even want to think the Ramsey's did this. But I do not see Karr doing it. I see a few sick man you has been obsseded with the case.
If he was a CP why was there only 5 pics found on his PC?
If he was seen at the bus station how did he get from the Ramsey's and be seen at 12:30 where the time of death has been stated 1:00 .
Other the this one so called sighting no one has said he was at the open House on the 23rd.

Hi again JDB...was about to edit previous post to add that IMO he could have learned of JB from himself or another pedophile attending a pagent.....I think these sick freaks share photos of young girls and this is how he became obsessed with her. I also think if Karr did it he has embellished his story over the years with facts discussed in books nad message boards about this crime...like the party....I think he'd like to believe he had such innocent fun with JB.....

I'm not totally convinced yet this is THE guy, JDB, but I do not believe the parents did it. If not Karr, it was someone like him. Pedophiles do stalk victims, enter their homes and grab kids.....

[openminded1]

The 'doll' was one of items, PR wanted brought to her while she was resting/staying at the Fernie's home on the eve of the 26th! (your daughter is dead, and she is thinking about a doll?)


If I remember correctly, JonBenet was not real thrilled with the doll.

She loved her new bike tho :)
Yes, I heard that also- that JonBenet didn't like the doll. I could see Patsy asking for it though. Her daughter is dead and she misses her so much. She wants something to hold, something of JonBenet's. She can't hold JonBenet so she wants to hold and stroke the hair of the doll and she remembers her daughter's beautiful face. If it were me, I would want my daughter's favorite stuffed animal, however.

I actually have heard of people having these dolls made *after* losing a child and displaying the doll in their home in rememberance of the child. Creeepy IMHO, but hey, to each their own.

[poco]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.

I agree with ya there - I see so many similarities in PR's handwriting compared to the RN - hardly any similarities when I compare JK's to it... IMO, but, then again, who am I?????

[SuperDave]

"And there's that lower case d."

She wrote them like that, too.

"You want to see something shocking....check out Cherokee exemplar's of Patsy's handwriting on FFJ.

You will be amazed.....Patsy wrote the note."

Cherokee's the best.

"Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?"

Well, a while back, a poster named Sarah had a site where you could SEE for yourself how she had a tendency to use certain phrases found in the note frequently. Too bad it's not up anymore.

"How could PR walk free all these years? How could anyone be vague about the possibility she wrote the RN?"

Because, as that moron Pete Hofstrom put it, "So what if she wrote the note? It doesn't prove she killed her kid." And he's right, from a legal standpoint.

"What are the chances that there could be so many similarites to someone's handwriting, and they just happened to be in the house at the time of the murder!!"

That's the question ST asked!

"your own eyeballs don't lie to you."

No, they don't.

"I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note."

I'll get to that!

"I didn't know that. I suppose this is why most of the experts went with "inconclusive"."

That was what they said officially. Off the record was different.

"SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the ransom note."

Gladly! Sadly, doc has beaten me to it! But to fill in the blanks, the CBI did not rate her "4.5 out of 5." That was cooked up by the two handwriting experts HIRED by the Ramseys! And THEY couldn't give her a clean bill of health!

"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. (SMF P 197; PSMF P 197.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14). However, it has also been reported that "Chet Ubowski of CBI wrote of one of her samples that "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey. Ubowski told investigators that the samples she gave "do not suggest the full range of her handwriting. Likewise, according to Internet poster The Punisher, Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

IOWs, she wrote it, I just can't say so with courtroom certainty.

The rest were of varying strengths. Leonard Speckin said that he couldn't be sure, either, due to the disguised writing, but off the record, he said that the odds of someone breaking into the house and writing with so many similarities was extremely remote. Most of them were like that. What you MUST remember is that it's ALL the other stuff that points to her as the writer. The odds of her being to writer increase dramatically when those factors are taken in.

Let me put it another way: When you eliminate the impossble, whatever remains, however improbable, MUST be the truth.--Sherlock Holmes

"I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury."

We don't know what they saw in that regard.

"However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together."

If you notice, it starts very shaky, then becomes very personal.

"TEN other experts said they were certain Patsy wrote the note... TEN."

Yep. I notice something: many people have challenged the Ramseys to release a handwriting report that clears her. They have never done it. Don't forget, her's was the only writing that changed after the murder.

"This lame excuse that the CBI gave Patsy a low probability score when Ubowski said that the only reason he didn't conclude 100% that the note was written by Patsy is because of the DISGUISED letters and bleeding ink from the felt tip pen used to write the note is ridiculous. TEN other experts say they are positive Patsy wrote the note."

yep, and all of them make Ubowski look like Mr. Magoo.

Thanks, doc!

"Let's see what the same experts say about Karr's writing..."

Fair enough.

"I have seen TEN experts claim Karr could have written the note."

I only know of three.

"And there is no proof at all of chronic sex abuse of this child. In fact her pediatrician denies it."

You mean the pediatrician who didn't see her since August of '96? Who ADMITS he never performed an internal exam?

[TexMex]

The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note. (SMF P 254.)" (Carnes 2003:26). "Defendants' experts base their conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey is not the author of the Ransom Note on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristics of Mrs. Ramsey's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note

"Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note."


"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


"Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.

"Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired : "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."


"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.


"Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Ransom%20Note

[Trino]

And, how much are the people paid who do handwriting analysis?

[rashomon]

Chet Ubowski was the CBI...

"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. (SMF P 197; PSMF P 197.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14). However, it has also been reported that Chet Ubowski of CBI wrote of one of her samples that 'This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.' Ubowski told investigators that the samples she gave 'do not suggest the full range of her handwriting.' Likewise, according to Internet poster ThePunisher, Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued over: 'Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey.' Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

TEN other experts said they were certain Patsy wrote the note... TEN. This lame excuse that the CBI gave Patsy a low probability score when Ubowski said that the only reason he didn't conclude 100% that the note was written by Patsy is because of the DISGUISED letters and bleeding ink from the felt tip pen used to write the note is ridiculous. TEN other experts say they are positive Patsy wrote the note. This is exactly what I mean by many IDI's going in circles trying to deny that Patsy wrote the note.

Not that I've seen, no. From what I've seen here RDI's have backed up their assertions with facts... document transcripts, independent expert conclusions, photographic evidence, etc. Anything I've seen from most IDI's is based on an ADMITTED BIASED investigator working for free for the Ramsey's that can't even back up his OWN theories when questioned or presented with evidence that reveals his twisted logic, and even has countered some of his own assertions... Lou Smit.

MOST of what I've seen here in the few days I've even been here is the same arguments going around in circles with the same uninformed opinions cropping up over and over. I only really got interested in this case since the advent of Karr, and just in that small amount of time already have more FACTS about this case than most IDI's that have been here for months or even years. The pineapple, the bear, the size 12 panties, the stun gun, and on and on and on... I'm astonished that most IDI's here have never even LOOKED at any of the handwriting analyses and just yammer the same crap or stay silent. It's absurd.

With ALL the information out there about the ransom note and the handwriting analyses I'm STUNNED to discover that most IDI's have never even SEEN any of it and if they have are carefully refusing to say anything about it. I'm STUNNED to discover that so many of the IDI's that are so stuck on DNA evidence don't know a damn THING about DNA. I'm STUNNED to discover that so many IDI's have no idea what FACTS there are in this case and have absolutely no inclination to find out. I'm STUNNED to discover that even here in this thread there are those that refuse to believe their own EYES.

I just paged back to several months ago, and the same people were arguing the same debunked crap that they're STILL arguing today... PATHETIC.

Really? Then let's see them. Just in that ONE analysis that I provided a link to there are 62 or 63 (can’t recall which off hand) separate letter comparisons. Do a side by side letter comparison of the letters in the ransom note you believe are a match to Karr's and we’ll see how many you can come up with.... we'll wait.

That's ALL you have? No MOTIVE? How about the fact that many experts concluded that JBR had been not only sexually assaulted recently (within 48-72 hours before her death) but CHRONICALLY??? How about the blow to the head was accidental and the cover up was designed to absolve the Ramsey's from anything to do with the blow to the head? Physical evidence speaks for itself. There is PLENTY of physical evidence that points to an inside job and NOTHING that points to an intruder despite Smit's convoluted attempts to conjure one up.

:banghead:

And hey, if the link I gave doesn't give you warm fuzzies, try these...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7291

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/
OUTSTANDING post, PDD. Keep 'em coming!

[stonewall]

I don't know why such focus is on the handwriting analysis. All I have heard all week from the experts is how unreliable this science is. This is no doubt part of the reason why PR wasn't arrested. If this is all they had, it wasn't enough. If it wasn't enough to convince law enforcement, it's not enough for me. We can't do a comparison of her writing and come to any reliable conclusion at all. It requires training and expertise in the area of handwriting analysis. I think we should rely on the experts' analysis and LE's ultimate conclusion regarding the note.

[PagingDrDetect]

TexMex:

ST pb page 253
"In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation.

We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries
'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse'
'There was chronic abuse'. . .
'Past violation of the vagina'. . .
'Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse.'

In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault, but with a child who was being physically abused."
and:

PMPT hb pg 437
Injury to hymen "dated from an old injury"

Dr. Cyril Wecht

Dr. David Jones
Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics
University of CO Health Sciences Center

Dr. James Monteleone
Professor of Pediatrics
St. Louis University School of Medicine
Director of Child Protection
Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital

Dr. John McCann
Clincial Professor of Medicine
Dept of Pediatrics
Univeristy of California at Davis

So, all of these EXPERTS are liars after viewing the autopsy results and slides of the tissue? When JBR's pediatrician who is NOT an expert NEVER did an internal examination? Is THAT what you're saying?

Where are the handwriting analyses of the 3 supposed experts that have apparently claimed that Karr wrote the note? Or were these people just saying this on talk shows without having DONE any analysis? And just how "expert" are these supposed experts when any expert knows that no valid handwriting analysis can possibly be made from one document that's 20 years old? Hmmm?

I'm waiting on your side by side letter comparison of Karr's handwriting to the ransom note that you claim will show just as many dead ringers as the 60+ ones found in Miller's EXPERT analysis. Any time you're ready...

[TexMex]

TexMex:

ST pb page 253
"In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation.

We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries
'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse'
'There was chronic abuse'. . .
'Past violation of the vagina'. . .
'Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse.'

In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault, but with a child who was being physically abused."
and:


Where are the handwriting analyses of the 3 supposed experts that have apparently claimed that Karr wrote the note? Or were these people just saying this on talk shows without having DONE any analysis? And just how "expert" are these supposed experts when any expert knows that no valid handwriting analysis can possibly be made from one document that's 20 years old? Hmmm?

I'm waiting on your side by side letter comparison of Karr's handwriting to the ransom note that you claim will show just as many dead ringers as the 60+ ones found in Miller's EXPERT analysis. Any time you're ready...


Calm down PDD.

A "panel of experts" may have seen abuse but apparently her pediatrician, Boulder PD/DA and Grand Jury did not.
Isn't Wecht facing criminal charges :doh:


Many experts do not see ANY possibility af Mrs R writing the note or place her at the low end of the spectrum of possibility of being the author

The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note. (SMF P 254.)" (Carnes 2003:26). "Defendants' experts base their conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey is not the author of the Ransom Note on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristics of Mrs. Ramsey's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note

"Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note."


"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


"Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.

"Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired : "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."


"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.

"Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Ransom%20Note

[rashomon]

"And there's that lower case d."

She wrote them like that, too.

"You want to see something shocking....check out Cherokee exemplar's of Patsy's handwriting on FFJ.

You will be amazed.....Patsy wrote the note."

Cherokee's the best.

"Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?"

Well, a while back, a poster named Sarah had a site where you could SEE for yourself how she had a tendency to use certain phrases found in the note frequently. Too bad it's not up anymore.

"How could PR walk free all these years? How could anyone be vague about the possibility she wrote the RN?"

Because, as that moron Pete Hofstrom put it, "So what if she wrote the note? It doesn't prove she killed her kid." And he's right, from a legal standpoint.

"What are the chances that there could be so many similarites to someone's handwriting, and they just happened to be in the house at the time of the murder!!"

That's the question ST asked!

"your own eyeballs don't lie to you."

No, they don't.

"I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note."

I'll get to that!

"I didn't know that. I suppose this is why most of the experts went with "inconclusive"."

That was what they said officially. Off the record was different.

"SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the ransom note."

Gladly! Sadly, doc has beaten me to it! But to fill in the blanks, the CBI did not rate her "4.5 out of 5." That was cooked up by the two handwriting experts HIRED by the Ramseys! And THEY couldn't give her a clean bill of health!



IOWs, she wrote it, I just can't say so with courtroom certainty.

The rest were of varying strengths. Leonard Speckin said that he couldn't be sure, either, due to the disguised writing, but off the record, he said that the odds of someone breaking into the house and writing with so many similarities was extremely remote. Most of them were like that. What you MUST remember is that it's ALL the other stuff that points to her as the writer. The odds of her being to writer increase dramatically when those factors are taken in.

Let me put it another way: When you eliminate the impossble, whatever remains, however improbable, MUST be the truth.--Sherlock Holmes

"I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury."

We don't know what they saw in that regard.

"However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together."

If you notice, it starts very shaky, then becomes very personal.

"TEN other experts said they were certain Patsy wrote the note... TEN."

Yep. I notice something: many people have challenged the Ramseys to release a handwriting report that clears her. They have never done it. Don't forget, her's was the only writing that changed after the murder.

"This lame excuse that the CBI gave Patsy a low probability score when Ubowski said that the only reason he didn't conclude 100% that the note was written by Patsy is because of the DISGUISED letters and bleeding ink from the felt tip pen used to write the note is ridiculous. TEN other experts say they are positive Patsy wrote the note."

yep, and all of them make Ubowski look like Mr. Magoo.

Thanks, doc!

"Let's see what the same experts say about Karr's writing..."

Fair enough.

"I have seen TEN experts claim Karr could have written the note."

I only know of three.

"And there is no proof at all of chronic sex abuse of this child. In fact her pediatrician denies it."

You mean the pediatrician who didn't see her since August of '96? Who ADMITS he never performed an internal exam?
Thanks SuperDave, for your detailed approach in answering questions or responding to mere claims and allegations. This immensely helps clearing things up, although avid Ramsey supporters may not like it if their beliefs are confronted with FACTS. Facts which imo just scream that the Ramseys are involved in JonBenet's death.

[William N]

For the sake of argument, I will assume that one of the Ramseys killed Jon Benet. Why then, did they bother to write a ransom note at all? After all, JB was lying dead in the basement, and would be found. She was obviously not kidnapped and taken away in spite of the note. It would be a logical inference that some sicko had snuck in and killed her. Writing a note with handwriting that could be checked would only bring suspicion onto the Ramseys.

[rashomon]

For the sake of argument, I will assume that one of the Ramseys killed Jon Benet. Why then, did they bother to write a ransom note at all? After all, JB was lying dead in the basement, and would be found. She was obviously not kidnapped and taken away in spite of the note. It would be a logical inference that some sicko had snuck in and killed her. Writing a note with handwriting that could be checked would only bring suspicion onto the Ramseys.
If a child has been found dead in the parents' home with both parents being present in the home, everything will point to the parents being the perps, no matter how the body has been 'handled' for staging purposes. And that is exactly why they wrote the ransom note: to introduce an 'outside' element which should point away from them. It was a desperate attempt of course, in view of the fact that the body was left in the house (it was probably too risky for them to dump it somewhere outside). But the Ramseys had no choice, therefore writing the ransom note was an "any port in a storm" decision on their part.

[SuperDave]

"I don't know why such focus is on the handwriting analysis. All I have heard all week from the experts is how unreliable this science is. This is no doubt part of the reason why PR wasn't arrested. If this is all they had, it wasn't enough. If it wasn't enough to convince law enforcement, it's not enough for me. We can't do a comparison of her writing and come to any reliable conclusion at all. It requires training and expertise in the area of handwriting analysis. I think we should rely on the experts' analysis and LE's ultimate conclusion regarding the note."

I'll tell you what I rely on: my own two eyes.

"A "panel of experts" may have seen abuse but apparently her pediatrician, Boulder PD/DA and Grand Jury did not."

We don't know if the Grand Jury even SAW this!

"Many experts do not see ANY possibility af Mrs R writing the note or place her at the low end of the spectrum of possibility of being the author"

They didn't know she could write with both hands! That was important! An analysis of her left-hand writing was done, and it was an almost perfect match. Cherokee has the side-by-side up if you like.

"Why then, did they bother to write a ransom note at all?"

All part of the staging.

"After all, JB was lying dead in the basement, and would be found. She was obviously not kidnapped and taken away in spite of the note. It would be a logical inference that some sicko had snuck in and killed her."

How do you figure? The Justice Dept. says that a parent is OVERWHELMINGLY the perp in cases like this.

"Writing a note with handwriting that could be checked would only bring suspicion onto the Ramseys."

If ever I kill someone and need a cover-up, I'll tell you how clearly MY mind works!

"Thanks SuperDave, for your detailed approach in answering questions or responding to mere claims and allegations."

It's a rotten job, but someone has to do it.

Remember what the Feds said, rashomon? How each piece by itself was weak, but ALL together, they become a solid wall? That's what I'm saying.

[narlacat]

Hello PDD


Let's see what the same experts say about Karr's writing...

I have seen TEN experts claim Karr could have written the note.

And there is no proof at all of chronic sex abuse of this child. In fact her pediatrician denies it.


http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

The judge wrote that the ransom note was taken from paper at the Ramseys’ home and written with a pen that belonged to them.

She wrote that both the Ramseys and Wolf agreed the ransom note was not an “ideal specimen” for handwriting analysis because a broad fiber-tip pen was used.

“This type of pen distorts and masks fine detail to an extent not achievable by other types of pens, as for example a ball-point ben,” Carnes wrote.

However, Carnes wrote that the handwriting in the ransom note was consistent throughout the entire writing, contrary to someone trying to hide their handwriting style.

“One of the most common means to disguise one’s handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text,” Carnes wrote.

Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

On a scale of one to five, with five eliminating someone from suspicion as the author of the ransom note, the experts placed Patsy Ramsey at 4.5 to 4.0, Carnes wrote.Beuf did not give JBR an internal examination, so his opinion means jack.

And wasn't Carnes the one that was duped?

[narlacat]

Hi rashomon

I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury.

There is no motive on the part of the Ramsey's to kill their daughter. There is motive for a pedophile intruder to kill her.
The motive is sometimes not apparent until after the crime is solved.

[narlacat]

Hello to you too, JDB


There is no evidence that JB didn't enjoy pagents. I agree the parents should have been looked at ---and they were. For ten years. No evidence. IMO the chances a sick pervert did this are much more likely than her doting parents.
Doting parents?
Patsy didn't dote, she pushed.

[TexMex]

The motive is sometimes not apparent until after the crime is solved.

Agree cat.

And I do hope that day arrives.

[SuperDave]

We all do, Tex.

"And wasn't Carnes the one that was duped?"

Yes! I knew I forgot something. Yes, she was. She saw NONE of the police evidence. Wood gave her those sayings from the experts, and since the opposition didn't challenge them, she had to accept them. Doesn't mean that's what they actually told the police.

[narlacat]

Thanks SuperDave, I thought so too.

[openminded1]

At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th? Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect? Especially if we are talking about Patsy here. Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think.

[SuperDave]

"At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th?"

7.

"Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect?"

Because if they were missed, someone would come looking for them.

"Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think."

That's what make-up is for.

[Chrishope]

At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th? Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect? Especially if we are talking about Patsy here. Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think.

The pilot of the private plane would have wondered where they were. He'd have called. They had either to call the pilot and say they weren't going, or call 911.

[SuperDave]

Chrishope, you said it better than I!

[foxbluff]

If a pedophile killed JBR, why would he bother writing that IMO ridiculous ransom letter?

[openminded1]

"At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th?"

7.

"Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect?"

Because if they were missed, someone would come looking for them.

"Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think."

That's what make-up is for.
7:00 explains alot. Thanks! In 1996, I was in college and could have cared less about this or any other case- unless it was a case of Corona!

[stonewall]

If a pedophile killed JBR, why would he bother writing that IMO ridiculous ransom letter?
This is a good point but I honestly don't understand why either an intruder or a Ramsey would write it. It makes NO sense in either way. If PR killed JBR then why would she write a ransom note stating the child was kidnapped when she knew she was dead in the basement and would ultimately be found there?

Further, if an intruder did it then why leave a ransom note if he didn't intend to kidnap her? The only way leaving the ransom note makes sense is if an intruder intended to kidnap her, wrote the note and then, for whatever reason, aborted his plan and killed her there. Maybe the "accident" Karr refers to is that he killed her there. If this is the case, what could have happened to cause him to abort his kidnapping plan?

[openminded1]

Further, if an intruder did it then why leave a ransom note if he didn't intend to kidnap her? The only way leaving the ransom note makes sense is if an intruder intended to kidnap her, wrote the note and then, for whatever reason, aborted his plan and killed her there. Maybe the "accident" Karr refers to is that he killed her there. If this is the case, what could have happened to cause him to abort his kidnapping plan?
Or, as I think has been already stated elsewhere, the note was just a way to buy time. If an intruder was in the basement with JBR, it would take the parents a minute to read that long note and have it sink in. Maybe the suitcase by the window wasn't an entry point, but an escape route just in case?

[foxbluff]

This is a good point but I honestly don't understand why either an intruder or a Ramsey would write it. It makes NO sense in either way. If PR killed JBR then why would she write a ransom note stating the child was kidnapped when she knew she was dead in the basement and would ultimately be found there?

Further, if an intruder did it then why leave a ransom note if he didn't intend to kidnap her? The only way leaving the ransom note makes sense is if an intruder intended to kidnap her, wrote the note and then, for whatever reason, aborted his plan and killed her there. Maybe the "accident" Karr refers to is that he killed her there. If this is the case, what could have happened to cause him to abort his kidnapping plan?Like you, I can't come up with any reason why a kidnapper would have left the body in the house. IMO it would be just as easy to leave the house with her dead as alive!

I tend to accept what I'm reading on the boards that says phedophiles don't kidnap for ransom. Their motive isn't money, so why bother with a ransom note?

I think that the Rams came up w/the ransom note to deflect suspicion from themselves. I think that they needed a way to explain why the coroner was going to discover evidence of sexual abuse.

[stonewall]

Maybe the suitcase by the window wasn't an entry point, but an escape route just in case?
Now that's a thought!

[foxbluff]

Or, as I think has been already stated elsewhere, the note was just a way to buy time. If an intruder was in the basement with JBR, it would take the parents a minute to read that long note and have it sink in. Maybe the suitcase by the window wasn't an entry point, but an escape route just in case?
I see your point, that could have saved time. Now here comes the "but"...LOL

Just think how much time he could have saved by not composing/writing that novelette of a ransom note! LOL

[Lurker Steve]

Like you, I can't come up with any reason why a kidnapper would have left the body in the house. IMO it would be just as easy to leave the house with her dead as alive!

I tend to accept what I'm reading on the boards that says phedophiles don't kidnap for ransom. Their motive isn't money, so why bother with a ransom note?

I think that the Rams came up w/the ransom note to deflect suspicion from themselves. I think that they needed a way to explain why the coroner was going to discover evidence of sexual abuse.But the Ramsey's were in the best position possible to remove the body from the house before calling the police. They could have put the body into their car in the garage, dumped it, then came back and called police.

[openminded1]

I see your point, that could have saved time. Now here comes the "but"...LOL

Just think how much time he could have saved by not composing/writing that novelette of a ransom note! LOL
And here comes the REbutt lol....

If it's true that this guy snuck into the house while the Ramsey's were gone, what better to do than kill time by writing a really long and rambling ransom note.

[aussiesheila]

Very good observations. However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together.I believe Patsy wrote the note in the hours after JonBenet was murdered in the full knowledge that she was already dead. I don't find it highly unlikely at all although I don't think she did it calmly or without assistance. The fact that the letters are very shakily formed at the beginning is an indication of her distraught emotional state IMO. I think also that she was forced to write it by someone who dictated the first five sentences to her, so she was just mechanically transcribing up to that point. I think she was then left to complete the note on her own but with instructions to write stuff that would encourage John to wait around patiently and do nothing and not to call the police, which she did. What I see then happening as her emotions really take hold of her is she then launches into a tirade of raging against John, which I see as deflecting the guilt of her involvement in the murder towards John as being responsible for it, I presume because he was away so often on business trips allowing the sexual predators easier acces to their prey. I see the STBC as standing for Saved by the Cross and included as a last minute veiled and desperate plea by a Christian for her own forgiveness. All very Patsy and all highly believable IMO.

[aussiesheila]

Evidently some people don't want to believe their own eyes. You don't have to be an expert to see that the writing is identical.

I wonder if the investigators ever tried to confront Patsy
about the note by saying-

"Look Patsy we know you wrote the note but don't believe you killed your daughter.

Now tell us why you wrote it".It would have been really interesting if the investigators has done this MysteryAddict. Unfortunately they didn't because IMO, all those who questioned her were absolutely certain that Patsy killed JonBenet in additon to writing the note. They couldn't make the leap and separate the two. And most people still can't.

[SuperDave]

"It would have been really interesting if the investigators has done this MysteryAddict."

Sure would!

foxbluff, pedophiles don't write notes. So, if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

[Juliet10]

Wanna see something real interesting? Count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the ransom note. Now count the number of exclamation points (!) used in the annual Ramsey Christmas letter written by Patsy.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/1996christmasnewsletter.htm

Interesting, huh!

Patsy was a journalism student!!!!
I can't imagine a middle aged woman like Patsy remembering the quotes from the movies Dirty Harry, Ransom, Speed, Ruthless People involving specificly the same subject. The ransom note killer got the quotes pretty close too or changed them a little bit to their liking. She would've had to have been interested in those portions of the movie and kept them in her memory bank to use for a rainy day. I've seen those movies several times, I'm much younger than her and I wouldn't remember those quotes or had any reason for them to stand out from the dialogue in the rest of the movie. I remember quotes from movies but they are usually pretty famous quotes or from a movie I really like and seen 100 times. The quotes usually don't involve basicly the same subject either. The subject being a person making ransom demands in a note or over the phone.

Remember this crime was supposedly an accident so patsy had no time to plan those quotes in advance.

[JDB]

Remember this crime was supposedly an accident so patsy had no time to plan those quotes in advance.
That is what JMK said. Who knows now if it was an accident

[narlacat]

I can't imagine a middle aged woman like Patsy remembering the quotes from the movies Dirty Harry, Ransom, Speed, Ruthless People involving specificly the same subject. The ransom note killer got the quotes pretty close too or changed them a little bit to their liking. She would've had to have been interested in those portions of the movie and kept them in her memory bank to use for a rainy day. I've seen those movies several times, I'm much younger than her and I wouldn't remember those quotes or had any reason for them to stand out from the dialogue in the rest of the movie. I remember quotes from movies but they are usually pretty famous quotes or from a movie I really like and seen 100 times. The quotes usually don't involve basicly the same subject either. The subject being a person making ransom demands in a note or over the phone.

Remember this crime was supposedly an accident so patsy had no time to plan those quotes in advance.But JR was there too remember.

Someone in that house liked true crime, 'hence' the pics in the basement.
Someone in that house also liked to watch movies, 'hence' the home theatre.

[Juliet10]

But JR was there too remember.

Someone in that house liked true crime, 'hence' the pics in the basement.
Someone in that house also liked to watch movies, 'hence' the home theatre.
Did they own those crime movies?

[narlacat]

Who knows, your guess is as good as mine.

I'm thinking surely the BPD checked that out, what movies they owned.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't.

[Vet4Bush]

They would buy the new movies when they came out on DVD, usually a year after release, and they would view them in their home theatre. Don't know if BPD searched the house for movie DVDs. They did question PR about the movie habits of the Ramseys, though.

[Vet4Bush]

Love the allusion to 'hence', since it was used incorrectly, like most American usage, with an 'and' (and hence) in the RN, and also used by both John and Patsy in other writings.

[simplesimon]

I find the comparison between Patsy's writing and the ransom note are uncanny. to me the things that really stand out are the letter q which look like the number 8 and the backward comma's and apostrophe's. After reading this it is hard to discount Patsy.

[deanws]

7:00 explains alot. Thanks! In 1996, I was in college and could have cared less about this or any other case- unless it was a case of Corona!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[SuperDave]

"I find the comparison between Patsy's writing and the ransom note are uncanny. to me the things that really stand out are the letter q which look like the number 8 and the backward comma's and apostrophe's. After reading this it is hard to discount Patsy."

I've never seen anyone write them like that!

"Remember this crime was supposedly an accident so patsy had no time to plan those quotes in advance."

You'd be amazed at what goes through a person's mind!

"Did they own those crime movies?"

Quite a few of them were on tv within a month of the killing, including one that night.

[redbetty]

The behavior of John and Patsy, in the hours following the discovery of their murdered daughter has always baffled me.

The desire to flee just doesn't fit into the personality of a self-made very powerful man. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to want to become ultra-involved with the investigation? It seems to me that he would feel smarter than most of the people in the room, if you know what I mean, and would feel that it was his duty, responsibility as a father to find this killer.
The abandonment of the body by her parents is just not natural. Why wouldn't they stay with her every moment until the coroner's office took her away. It just doesn't fit into the scenerio of doting parents.
Those initial behaviors betray a sense of something unnatural.

[redbetty]

Also, I am a middle aged woman, a little younger than Patsy Ramsey, and not a huge fan of adventure movies, but somehow those phrases from the movies have wormed their way into my vocabulary.

Anyone who has had a teenager around knows full well that if you hear the most ridiculous phrase enough times, you have to fight the urge to use it yourself.

[RJML]

Some of the comments made in this thread are laughable.


Look, I see the obvious similarity between her writing and the note but sheesh, how does a human being see them and jump to the conclusion that she had to have been responsible for her daughter's death? Seriously...i am glad some of you are not in the legal system because many people would probably go to jail over some lame evidence like this.


"oh look, the defendant wears a blue golf shirt. They found blue fibers at the crime scene. lynch him!!!"

Seriously.

People need to look at the facts. Fact is they have had almost 10 years to tie this to the Ramseys and never could despite the fact they seemed to think it was them. If this was such an open/shut case like sooooo many here imply then why on earth wouldn't they have arrested them for it? OBVIOUSLY there is more to it than a freakin' hand writing sample or some fibres or some odd behaviour on Dec 26th.

Hey, people can have whatever opinion they want but some here are just being plain ol stubborn and refuse to think logically. I love the person who implied any IDI person refuses to look at the facts and is biased yet can't see THE EXACT SAME mentality for most RDI people here. PagingDrDetect is as baised as the people he/she harped on about. As someone who is clueless about what happened and isn't going to make some conclusion, I can easily say many of each side are acting the exact way meaning they are being close minded and will strictly stick to whatever evidence they feel fits their opinion. This is a CLASSIC human trait where people refuse to accept they may be wrong. Nobody should feel ashamed to do it but they should admit it.

Anyway, I can see either theory being the truth but I just come back to the fact that if it was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo obvious the ramseys did it then why the heck weren't they ever charged. I've seen people charged for crimes on such minor evidence so if thre is supposedly so much here then it should be a given. Seriously. Logic points to this simple fact. Oh wait I forgot...John supposedly is above the law so could cover it all up. Yep...lets keep diging deeper wiht our theories instead of just face the sad truth that they may....NOT HAVE DONE IT.

BTW I see a lot of my hand writing similarities with the examples given. I guess that I may have written the note!!! Quick, someone come arrest me now!!!

It's funny how people are putting so much weight into hand writing analysis (which has been proven to be useless) and I find it funny that people yesterday went on about Karr's comparisons and totally ignore the fact that he wasn't put into some controlled test where he wrote exact letters/words from the note like the Ramseys went through. To go on about comparing patsy's controlled writing to his from 20 years ago and saying hers are closer to the note is asinine at best. Basically, there is no way to tell who has the closer writing since there are no examples of Karr doing the same examples that patsy had to do.

Why are so many people on this JB forum being so illogical about this case. It is amazing and makes me fearful of the idea of some people here ever being on jury duty and deciding a person's fate with their simplistic and close minded views of things. Yikes.

Oh and the randsom note makes no sense based on the RDI or IDI theory.
I love those claiming it supports the RDI theory saying it gives them something to try and pass of their guilt when in reality it does the opposite. So let me get this straight...you think writing a note in the handwriting of someone living there will help prove their innocence rather than get many to have concerns of their guilt? Okaaaaaaay.

I truly am amazed at the RDI people and the lame evidence they use to try and imply the theory is in stone. I think the IDI theory has many flaws as well but seriously, based on what I read at this forum it sounds more plausible than the RDI theory simply because the RDI people reach for things.

"John wanted to get out of dodge 20 mins after finding her body. He is guilty!!!"

Yep that MUST be it since you have found your child's dead body and know exactly how to act at the time.

Just love how everyone here is projecting what THEY think these people should have done at the time yet people here fail to realize what one can think/know to do in a situation is far diff than WHEN you are IN the situation and have to go on instinct/emotion.

The sad thing that even if there wasn't this supposed mountain of evidence pointing toward their guilt (which again, funny that they never were arrested with this supposed obvious evidence) most here probably still would proclaim them guilty simply because of JB being in pageants as many here feel they exploited their little girl. I also find it funny people here proclaiming JB didn't like takig aprt on the pageants or disputing Patsy when she said JB loved them. Yep, you guys know because you were all friends with JB 10 years ago and knew she hated them and was being forced into them. Uh huh.

I have no clue if JR or PR killed their daughter but I do feel bad for the crap they put up with from many. the evidence tying OJ to killing his ex-wife is far greater than this yet he didnt go through the same stuff the ramseys did...and he was actually charged with the crime!!!!

All I want is justice for that little girl (and IMO many here don't want that and just want to be super case solver and be right) but at least she is in a better place than this world.

[Maybe So]

Great post and all very true.

No matter what our pet theories are we need to remember to keep and open mind and listen to the other possibilities.

I have read that so many people were sick of hearing all the speculation and outlandish theories that newbies were posting. Guess what people....that's what a forum is all about....people stating their ideas and thoughts freely to each other and debating them.

This case isn't solved....it's all speculation at this point....so why do some feel so threatened by any new ideas that they need to shut others down?

[Maybe So]

Can anyone tell me why the Ramseys would not have made their "staging" more consistent?

They staged a sexual molestation in the basement but wrote a ransom note for money from a foreign faction to leave upstairs?

Would it not have made more sense to leave a note that sounded like it was from a child molester type of kidnapper? That way the crime scene and the note would jibe?

[wenchie]

Can anyone tell me why the Ramseys would not have made their "staging" more consistent?

They staged a sexual molestation in the basement but wrote a ransom note for money from a foreign faction to leave upstairs?

Would it not have made more sense to leave a note that sounded like it was from a child molester type of kidnapper? That way the crime scene and the note would jibe?

Why would a child molester type leave a ransom note?

[julianne]

=SuperDave

foxbluff, pedophiles don't write notes. So, if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.SuperDave, ANYONE who is capable of writing can write a ransom note. Whether that person is pedophile, or not, if they can write, they can write a ransom note. It's not impossible---so although I love the "if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" quote, it completely doesn't apply to your statement.

Now, if all pedophiles could not read or write, then YES, you would be correct in stating the pedophiles don't write notes, and you could call it impossible. But that isn't the case, is it?

[Maybe So]

Why would a child molester type leave a ransom note?

To sound like a foreign faction instead of a perv?

or because he was sadistic?

but the original question was why would the Ramseys stage a sexual molestation but leave a ransom note with a totally different angle to it?

They would not necessarily know that child molesters supposedly never leave notes.

They could have written something like. I have your kid, I'm gonna do bad (perverse) stuff to her unless you give me money. If you call the cops I'm gonna torture and kill you daughter....etc etc....without bringing in foreign factions and such.

[wenchie]

Because they didn't plan it out well? I guess for the same reason that Scott Peterson said he was fishing in the bay.

I'm not into theories of elaborate themes in this case: I've always believed that Jonbenet was not previously molested, that Patsy fatally wounded her in a fit of rage (probably over bedwetting), that she staged the coverup and wrote the note, and that John figured that out within the first few hours (or minutes).

Something that really intrigues me, though, is one phrase in the ransom note: "You're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."

The sentence makes no sense, and it sounds like it contains a coded message to John as well as a threat.

Fat Cats are generally men who have both wealth and power - how would that relate to killing?

If it read....."you're not the only killer around, so don't think that killing will be difficult", it would at least makes sense.

It almost sounds like Patsy is reminding John that she knows some dirty secret about him which she will reveal if he doesn't go along with her program.

[Maybe So]

Because they didn't plan it out well? I guess for the same reason that Scott Peterson said he was fishing in the bay.

I'm not into theories of elaborate themes in this case: I've always believed that Jonbenet was not previously molested, that Patsy fatally wounded her in a fit of rage (probably over bedwetting), that she staged the coverup and wrote the note, and that John figured that out within the first few hours (or minutes).

Something that really intrigues me, though, is one phrase in the ransom note: "You're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."

The sentence makes no sense, and it sounds like it contains a coded message to John as well as a threat.

Fat Cats are generally men who have both wealth and power - how would that relate to killing?

If it read....."you're not the only killer around, so don't think that killing will be difficult", it would at least makes sense.

It almost sounds like Patsy is reminding John that she knows some dirty secret about him which she will reveal if he doesn't go along with her program.

Hmmm I dunno, a three page note must have some thought behind it....yet it doesn't match the crime scene at all.

I don't think John had any dirty little secrets that Patsy would have kept for him if he killed JBR.

as for that line about fat cats I interpret it as such: Don't think we need YOUR money so badly we will keep her alive just to get it.....if you screw up we WILL kill her and target some other fat cat without any hesitation or difficulty.

[wenchie]

Patsy was a dramatic person, and she was under stress while she was writing that note. She at knew that pedophile murderers don't leave notes, but maybe she was covering all the bases with her staging.

And I think John Ramsey perhaps had some other secret in his past, and that's what the "fat cat" sentence could have been all about.

IMO

[Maybe So]

Patsy was a dramatic person, and she was under stress while she was writing that note. She at knew that pedophile murderers don't leave notes, but maybe she was covering all the bases with her staging.

And I think John Ramsey perhaps had some other secret in his past, and that's what the "fat cat" sentence could have been all about.

IMO

She knew thta pedophile murders don't leave notes? How would she know that?

[wenchie]

She knew thta pedophile murders don't leave notes? How would she know that?

You asked me why she would leave such a weird note. I gave you my opinion on why. Most people listen to the news and read the papers, and know that pedophiles don't leave ransom notes.

She may have already staged the pedophile crime scene before she sat down to write the note, and was stuck with a conflicting scenario. It's not like it was a premeditated murder, where she had time to play out the "perfect" scenario.


She did the best that she could, under the circumstances.

[Maybe So]

You asked me why she would leave such a weird note. I gave you my opinion on why. Most people listen to the news and read the papers, and know that pedophiles don't leave ransom notes.

She may have already staged the pedophile crime scene before she sat down to write the note, and was stuck with a conflicting scenario. It's not like it was a premeditated murder, where she had time to play out the "perfect" scenario.


She did the best that she could, under the circumstances.

I'm glad you gave your opinion.

But it just sticks with me....and I have to disagree...I don't think that most people know that pedophile kidnappers would never leave ransom notes.....not unless they read this forum and ones like it...which most didn't even exist before JBRs murder. I doubt Patsy would have known that and I think had she left the note herself she would have tried to make it match the crime scene in some way.

Of course I could be wrong.....as I cannot decide who I think killed JBR I can see good reasons why people see it either way.

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by RJML
People need to look at the facts.Ya think? Then I suggest you do that. It takes a lot of damn gall (let alone stupidity) to vilify the people here that DO know them. We already know YOU don't. In another thread here you revealed that you knew nothing at all about the Ramsey's plans to take a trip out of state in their private plane early in the morning of the 26th... and you ripped into Camper's post in that thread calling it "nonsensical" BECAUSE of your own blatantly obvious and serious lack of the FACTS you are now claiming are so important to look at.

Dude, we HAVE looked into the facts... you HAVEN'T.

'Nuff said.

[wenchie]

The ransom note doesn't even match the ransom note.

"We respect your business but not the country it represents."

Well, duh......why are you kidnapping my daughter, then? Why not kidnap the daughter of someone who's business you DON'T respect?

The ransom note starts out political, turns financial, and then ends personal.

[LinasK]

I can't imagine a middle aged woman like Patsy remembering the quotes from the movies Dirty Harry, Ransom, Speed, Ruthless People involving specificly the same subject. The ransom note killer got the quotes pretty close too or changed them a little bit to their liking. She would've had to have been interested in those portions of the movie and kept them in her memory bank to use for a rainy day. I've seen those movies several times, I'm much younger than her and I wouldn't remember those quotes or had any reason for them to stand out from the dialogue in the rest of the movie. I remember quotes from movies but they are usually pretty famous quotes or from a movie I really like and seen 100 times. The quotes usually don't involve basicly the same subject either. The subject being a person making ransom demands in a note or over the phone.

Remember this crime was supposedly an accident so patsy had no time to plan those quotes in advance.
There were pages missing from the writing pad. Practice notes could have been written and discarded by Patsy. The felt pen was also hers. What pedo brings his own pen?

[Peter Hamilton]

the funny thing is,she practiced writing it first,but it still came out rambling,jumbled,confusing,senseless,as many of you have pointed out---she should have practiced more lol

[stonewall]

Can't we let her rest in peace? If she had murdered in daughter she would be in jail. So I think we should presume her innocent. She didn't appear smart enough to outsmart LE. Besides, she's dead. Isn't that what all you RDI's have always wanted?

[TexMex]

SuperDave, ANYONE who is capable of writing can write a ransom note. Whether that person is pedophile, or not, if they can write, they can write a ransom note. It's not impossible---so although I love the "if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" quote, it completely doesn't apply to your statement.

Now, if all pedophiles could not read or write, then YES, you would be correct in stating the pedophiles don't write notes, and you could call it impossible. But that isn't the case, is it?

Exactly julianne,

Obviously Karr is a pedophile and he wrote hundreds of pages of "notes" about his sick thoughts. IMO a sadist, BTK for example or even Jack the Ripper enjoyed writing notes and taunting authorities. Some experts claim Patsy authored the note, others didn't. If any expert at all had proven she wrote it she'd have died in prison. They couldn't.

[IrishMist]

I'm a fence sitter. Can't make up my mind and stick with it when it comes to this case. But after following this case for ten years, and following these forums for alot of that time, I can see where the RDI's are coming from.

People that have been following this case, and know the evidence, get understandably frustrated by alot of the Johnny-come-latelys and their outlandish theories. See, the devil is in the details with this case.

I don't know of anyone who wished Patsy dead. I know of plenty that really, truly believe her to be guilty of this crime, and wished her to be punished. Saying that if she were guilty, she'd have been in jail is just not true in our justice system. Often, it is those with the most money that win...

[TexMex]

I'm a fence sitter. Can't make up my mind and stick with it when it comes to this case. But after following this case for ten years, and following these forums for alot of that time, I can see where the RDI's are coming from.

People that have been following this case, and know the evidence, get understandably frustrated by alot of the Johnny-come-latelys and their outlandish theories. See, the devil is in the details with this case.

I don't know of anyone who wished Patsy dead. I know of plenty that really, truly believe her to be guilty of this crime, and wished her to be punished. Saying that if she were guilty, she'd have been in jail is just not true in our justice system. Often, it is those with the most money that win...


Morning Mist

My point is if it was proven--beyond a reasonable doubt--that she wrote the note, she would have been arrested. For murder, for tampering with evidence, for SOMETHING. This was a brutal killing of a little girl. I realize people with money are better protected but look at Karr--broke--public defender--but he's not been railroaded for this. They took his DNA--no match--and charges not filed. No DNA match for the Ramsey's either--yet the accusations continue...

[tumble]

They took his DNA--no match--and charges not filed. No DNA match for the Ramsey's either--yet the accusations continue...
TexMex, maybe some don't agree that the DNA can be used to exclude. Probably they have NOTHING else on the imaginator.


I don't know of anyone who wished Patsy dead. I know of plenty that really, truly believe her to be guilty of this crime, and wished her to be punished. Saying that if she were guilty, she'd have been in jail is just not true in our justice system. Often, it is those with the most money that win...
Thanks you for your understanding IM, you have a clear mind.

[Nuisanceposter]

About the phrase "fat cats"...Patsy's mother Nedra Paugh was known to tease John and Patsy about their financial status and call them fat cats as a joke.

[Maybe So]

There were pages missing from the writing pad. Practice notes could have been written and discarded by Patsy. The felt pen was also hers. What pedo brings his own pen?

Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home.

[kelly london]

i have reviewed the ransom note more times than i care to admit. it matches nearly identical to patsy's samples given. i cannot get past this - i keep going back to the point that it was an inside job.

[Honibugs]

This might be a stretch, but worth considering. Do you all think that John Mark Karr could be so obsessed with Jon Benet that he was trying to act like Patsy Ramsey, dressing like her and studying her behavior and the way she talks and writes; and then this ransom note appears to be from her because of his obsession?

[kayebee]

Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home.
There's all sorts of ways to destroy paper so that it won't be found. I know this is one of Smits points--why weren't the other practice pages found? Aha! The intruder must have taken them away with him!

What would you do with a paper that you didn't want found? Think about it for a minute. If you really did not want the paper or any evidence of the paper found, how would you get rid of it? I can think of a half dozen ways off the top of my head, but the first one that comes to mind is burning it and washing the ashes down a sink.

Or I could stuff it in a mailing envelope, address it to my attorney, and put it in my briefcase along with other business papers, where it probably would not look out of place at all.

And the fact that the Boulder Police, who bungled every aspect of this investigation, didn't find the practice pages doesn't mean they weren't there the day of the crime and gotten rid of at some later point, to who knows where.

I wanted to get back to your original point about the seeming disparity between the ransom note and the condition of the body. I asked a similar question on another thread (Why bother to write a ransom note that points to an outsider committing the crime and then "discover" the body in the house, which points suspicion right back on the family? Someone answered my question along the lines of "because it was taking the police too long to find it" or something like that and I think that's probably why.) I think the reason why you see such "cognitive dissonance" between the ransom note and the body is because it wasn't done by one person, it was done by two. One person wrote the ransom note and another person staged (or hid and then brought out of hiding) the body. That's why they are so disparate, why they don't feel as though they belong to the same crime: two people, assigned two different "jobs" did them separately.

Karen

[Wrinkles]

Hello Kelly London,

You wrote:
"i have reviewed the ransom note more times than i care to admit. it matches nearly identical to patsy's samples given. i cannot get past this - i keep going back to the point that it was an inside job."

This is one of the most difficult things for me to ignore or try to work around (coupled with other questionable things which can't be ignored or explained away.)

Wouldn't it be curious if the same handwriting expert, who had Patsy write the samples that were compared, asked about 5000 people to write the same samples, with the same instructions, and then they compared all of those samples in the same fashion? Of course, this would have to disclude anyone who had ever studied the ransom note or "practiced" trying to write it out before (as an exact match) - although, it would be interesting to see some of these purposely fed into the study for test analyses.

I'm sure that there are some that are great at plagiarizing, but I just can't imagine, even if I practiced for a long time, that I could pull off all the matches that were found between Patsy's samples and the ransom note.

I looked at JMKs yearbook text and immediately saw the blazing differences, as well as a few understandable similarities (i.e. people who print their a's in one way or another.) Then...there is a consideration of the way in which certain things were phrased or noted, i.e. (fat cat) or SBTC (as pointed out in one of our poster's siglines - something about the "competition", I believe.) I would really like to see the samples that they had Patty write, in order to do the comparison - as well as learn of the instructions for making the samples.

Another thing... What are the statistics/chances that the murderer (and/or person who wrote the RN) could "possibly" have had a writing style found so incredibly close to Patsy's? My guess is that it would have to be millions to 1, but that is merely an uneducated guess, I admit. I would like to hear a true handwriting analyst address that point.

No... I can't get past the RN either. What it means in terms of theory about JBRs death, I don't know exactly, but I can't get past seeing Patsy's hand in that RN. I can't excuse away all of the very strong similarities in the comparisons. On the other hand, if the above 5000 person experiment were done...I'd be very interested to rejudge what I can or can't get past.

The question I have is "Why?" Why "would she" or "did she" write the RN? Did she find her daughter dead, think that they would become suspects, and she felt frantic - thus staged just the RN? OR was this an inside job and total staging?

Someone posted that anyone who thought that Patsy didn't write that note would have to be delusional. Unless I can see a study proving other massive similarities, I have to admit, I feel like I would have to be delusional to cry "coincidence" in this situation. I had no interest in believing Patsy wrote the note or not, but I can't get past the similarities found. Without further "proofs" that could intellectually push me in another direction - I remain thinking Patsy wrote the RN, but, really, "Why?" (the latter question being rhetorical, as we can certainly drum up many reasons why.)

W

[SuperDave]

"Look, I see the obvious similarity between her writing and the note but sheesh, how does a human being see them and jump to the conclusion that she had to have been responsible for her daughter's death? Seriously...i am glad some of you are not in the legal system because many people would probably go to jail over some lame evidence like this."

You're right, legally. I doesn't prove murder. It only proves she wrote the note.

"People need to look at the facts. Fact is they have had almost 10 years to tie this to the Ramseys and never could despite the fact they seemed to think it was them. If this was such an open/shut case like sooooo many here imply then why on earth wouldn't they have arrested them for it?"

Glad to answer! Observe:

1) The DA's office. When this one got dropped on Hunter, he had things pretty good. Status quo for almost thirty years. No one rocks the boat. He spent his time plea-bargaining minor cases. He didn't want this. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that NO ONE could meet! He gave the Ramseys SO MUCh evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool. He was BUSINESS partners with them! And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. He wouldn't do it. Too bad.
He surrounded himself with people who were more like defense attorneys than prosecutors. Trip DeMuth, before ANY evidence was in, decided that the Ramseys couldn't do it. Why? Because he couldn't do it. That kind of thinking has NO PLACE in LE offices. I can forgive the average person for that kind of naivete, but he should KNOW better! One week before Karr's arrest, he said that just because a ten-month-old was dead with 28 fractures, it doesn't mean murder. I KID YOU NOT! This man openly mocked the police presentation of evidence at the FBI meeting. Trip has a thing about "witch hunts." He said the cops were on a witch hunt agianst the Ramseys, a witch hunt against the mother who beat that 10-month-old to death, and now he's afraid of a witch hunt against the DA. That sounds like a DEFENSE attorney talking, like he just stepped out of a Perry Mason episode. None of them had any real expertise with Grand Juries.

Have you read V's Fosterama? It shows that Hunter was undercutting his own WITNESSES! How much worse can you get?

When Keenan (now Lacy took over), it was worse. She had wanted to go after Santa Bill McReynolds from day one. She was biased in the favor of the Ramseys because of their status. She has so much as said so. Lacy is known as a radical feminist who lets her belief in women's innocence cloud her reason. She demonstrated that in the U of CO case. Duke before Duke! She actually chastised Tom Haney for being too tough on Patsy during the '98 interviews. WHAT?! Number one, Haney was using standard techniques. Two, if you look at the tape, he's being perfectly calm! No threats, no intimidation. He's very calmly giving her a chance to explain the evidence. SHE'S the one cursing and jumping around and acting like she's got a scorpion in her panties! What was LACY watching?!
2) Money. Yeah, I know, "Oh, Dave, that's so cheap," but it's true. if this were a regular, blue-collar family like mine, they would be in prison this very day, right or wrong. This was a weak Da's office. No one really disputes that. They were used to handling indigent non-whites with public defenders, not a former Miss West Virginia whose husband is loaded and whose lawyer owns half the state! Who can hire their own experts! How many of us could do that?

COME ON, HOW MANY!?

That was a big part of it: John was able to hire an army of lawyers and PR people and PIs to keep him out of prison. You don't have to take my word for it. Robert Ressler, profiler extraordinaire, said the same. Heck, John Ramsey admitted that he hired them to keep him out of jail! When I was a kid, I was taught the Pledge of Allegiance. That part about justice for all should MEAN something. But there's one set of rules for the rich, one for the rest of us.
3) Specifics. When you have a case where there is evidence that points to both people, you as a prosecutor have to decide who did what. You HAVE to. You can't say "one did it, the other helped, you decide." Can't do that. They never could. One of them (Hofstrom I think) said "So what if she wrote the note? Doesn't mean she killed her daughter." Sad as it is to admit, he's RIGHT! It only proves she wrote the note.
4) The idea that a parent could do this rocks the comfort zone for too many people. Who wants to think that the Girl Scout Den Mother is a murderer? That's what did in the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury looked at the autopsy photos, and despite everything we know about murdering parents and despite all the evidence, they decided, based on NOTHING but emotion and naivete, that no parent could do this. You don't have to take my word for that. I can prove they did that.
Quote:
The pictures were so horrible that the jurors felt it was absolutely inconceivable that any mother on Earth could have been capable of doing such a thing to their own child.


But wait! Here is FBI agent Ron Walker, who was there that morning:
Quote:
Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children.


Is that good enough for anyone?

An arrest was never a question in this case.

Chief Beckner: "Arrest them."

FBI: "Arrest them."

Dream Team Lawyers: "Arrest them."

And on and on. But the DA wouldn't go for it. Do you like the show "Law & Order?" It my favorite. Those DAs work WITH the cops. "Find out this," or "find out that," or "bring me some evidence of this." None of that here.

"So let me get this straight...you think writing a note in the handwriting of someone living there will help prove their innocence rather than get many to have concerns of their guilt? Okaaaaaaay."

How clearly do you think this person was thinking, anyway? Hindsight's 20/20.

"Can anyone tell me why the Ramseys would not have made their "staging" more consistent?"

I can! Staging is NEVER consistent. That's how they KNOW it's staging! The difference between what a real criminal mind knows and what a person THINK a real criminal knows is the difference between night and day.

"SuperDave, ANYONE who is capable of writing can write a ransom note. Whether that person is pedophile, or not, if they can write, they can write a ransom note. It's not impossible---so although I love the "if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" quote, it completely doesn't apply to your statement.

Now, if all pedophiles could not read or write, then YES, you would be correct in stating the pedophiles don't write notes, and you could call it impossible. But that isn't the case, is it?"

You don't understand. Pedophile kidnappers are motivated by lust. Ransom kidnappers are motivated by greed.

"but the original question was why would the Ramseys stage a sexual molestation but leave a ransom note with a totally different angle to it?"

Because that's what people THINK a ransom note sounds like. Too much television.

"Can't we let her rest in peace? If she had murdered in daughter she would be in jail."

I guess OJ must be innocent, then.

"She didn't appear smart enough to outsmart LE."

That's what the lawyers are for.

"Besides, she's dead. Isn't that what all you RDI's have always wanted?"

That was LOW, stonewall.

"If any expert at all had proven she wrote it she'd have died in prison. They couldn't."

Ten experts said she did. The DA didn't want to go for it. That's why she didn't go up.

"Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home."

Actually, they were in the trashbasket.

[lilpony]

What do you guys think of this statement, that my sister said to me?
She said if Patsy or John killed JonBenet. That Patsy would have made that statement, because she was on her death bed. My sister said, that she would not have wanted to take this to her grave. She would have asked for forgiveness, before she died. Whatcha all think?

[wenchie]

I think that Patsy would never have admitted what she did under any circumstances, and she wouldn't have left her son to deal with a deathbed confession.

I'm betting that she probably privately asked God to forgive her immediately after the killing, and that she believes that he did forgive her.

[SuperDave]

We have no idea whether or not she did, lilpony. Towards the end, she did say something like "I can't take it back."

[Peter Hamilton]

lilpony--No Way would she confess--if she did then JR would be implicated and he would go to prison--and her son would then be known as the son of parents who were child killers--she would RUIN their lives if she confessed

[lilpony]

I think that Patsy would never have admitted what she did under any circumstances, and she wouldn't have left her son to deal with a deathbed confession.

I'm betting that she probably privately asked God to forgive her immediately after the killing, and that she believes that he did forgive her.
I don't agree with my sister either. I don't think she would have let that secret slip out, not a chance. Thats of course if Patsy did it.

[lilpony]

lilpony--No Way would she confess--if she did then JR would be implicated and he would go to prison--and her son would then be known as the son of parents who were child killers--she would RUIN their lives if she confessed
I agree!!

I'm a fence sitter though. I do not know enough information, to say who did this. I need to read, read, read!

[wenchie]

Patsy could have easily put the practice note pieces, duct tape roll and other things right in her purse - knowing that they'd eventually be asked to leave the house and that no one would dare search a grieving parent.

[wenchie]

I don't agree with my sister either. I don't think she would have let that secret slip out, not a chance. Thats of course if Patsy did it.


Maybe your sister is assuming that Patsy was a "real" Christian.

[lilpony]

Maybe your sister is assuming that Patsy was a "real" Christian.
She thinks she would tell, so she could die in peace. Her way of asking for forgiveness.

Maybe I will invite my sister over here. I will think about it.:crazy:

[kayebee]

"Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home."

Actually, they were in the trashbasket.
I thought the practice note was found (was it ever revealed what was written on the practice note? I thought this was the possible 'unknown evidence' that might link Karr to the crime). Weren't there also pages missing from the pad, between the practice note and the ransom note that were never recovered?

Not sure where I read that, so unfortunately I can't provide a link.

Karen

[MysteryAddict]

Patsy could have easily put the practice note pieces, duct tape roll and other things right in her purse - knowing that they'd eventually be asked to leave the house and that no one would dare search a grieving parent.

You are right.

I bet Patsy left the house with a good sized purse.

[TexMex]

Patsy could have easily put the practice note pieces, duct tape roll and other things right in her purse - knowing that they'd eventually be asked to leave the house and that no one would dare search a grieving parent.

Hi wenchie

Patsy also could have easily put the body of a six year old in the car, driven to a State park, dumpster at some apartments and disposed of it--then called 911. :confused:

I do think the Ramsey arrogance was viewed as guilty behavior by the police who realized they'd blown protecting the crime scene.

[wenchie]

Hi wenchie

Patsy also could have easily put the body of a six year old in the car, driven to a State park, dumpster at some apartments and disposed of it--then called 911. :confused:

I do think the Ramsey arrogance was viewed as guilty behavior by the police who realized they'd blown protecting the crime scene.


Then she would have been busted for sure. Her husband may have woken up, there would have been footprints in the snow, the neighbors might have seen or heard the car leaving, evidence or cadaver scent could have been left in the car, and LE could have felt the hood of the car and known it had been driven lately.

Besides that.......I don't think that even Patsy could have dumped her daughter in a shallow grave or at the side of the road somewhere. Her actions with the staging (Jonbenet's favorite blanket, the heart in her hand) show that she had affection for her daughter (it just wasn't as strong as her temper was, IMO).

[IrishMist]

I agree!!

I'm a fence sitter though. I do not know enough information, to say who did this. I need to read, read, read!That's funny, Lilpony! I'm a fence sitter because of TOO MUCH information!! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/doh.gif The more I read, the more I can't make up my mind!!

[IrishMist]

Then she would have been busted for sure. Her husband may have woken up, there would have been footprints in the snow, the neighbors might have seen or heard the car leaving, evidence or cadaver scent could have been left in the car, and LE could have felt the hood of the car and known it had been driven lately.

Besides that.......I don't think that even Patsy could have dumped her daughter in a shallow grave or at the side of the road somewhere. Her actions with the staging (Jonbenet's favorite blanket, the heart in her hand) show that she had affection for her daughter (it just wasn't as strong as her temper was, IMO).If RDI, then I agree with this, Wenchie. Well said.

[wenchie]

If RDI, then I agree with this, Wenchie. Well said.

Thanks

[Texana]

That's funny, Lilpony! I'm a fence sitter because of TOO MUCH information!! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/doh.gif The more I read, the more I can't make up my mind!!


Me, too. I annoy even myself with being on the fence. But there I sit. :truce:

[NewMom2003]

These are the letter comparisons from http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf that really jumped out at me. Again, these are JUST the letter comparisons that jumped out at me... there is plenty more in the .pdf document to convince anyone who is unbiased to believe that Patsy did indeed write the ransom note. The letters on the left are from the ransom note, and the letters on the right are from PR's handwriting samples of the ransom note...

A letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E.jpg

Another letter "e"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-E2.jpg

A letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F.jpg

Another letter "f"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-F2.jpg

A letter "i"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-I.jpg

A letter "n"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-N.jpg

A letter "p"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-P.jpg

The much discussed letter "q"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Q.jpg

A letter "r"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-R.jpg

A letter "s"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-S.jpg

A letter "t" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2b.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T2a.jpg

Another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T.jpg

Yet another letter "t"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-T3.jpg

A letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U.jpg

Another letter "u"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-U2.jpg

A letter "v"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-V.jpg

A letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y.jpg

Another letter "y"...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Y2.jpg

A letter "z" (circled)...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Z.jpg

Side by side comparison of those circled letters...
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/MyTwoWings/_handwriting-Zb.jpg

Anyone who truly believes that the yearbook sample of Karr's handwriting 20 years ago more closely resembles the writing in the ransom note than Patsy's writing is clearly deluded.

OMG, I've never seen an actual comparison of her handwriting to the RN, just heard about it. This is pretty unmistakable though (I'm a fence sitter)

[TexMex]

Then she would have been busted for sure. Her husband may have woken up, there would have been footprints in the snow, the neighbors might have seen or heard the car leaving, evidence or cadaver scent could have been left in the car, and LE could have felt the hood of the car and known it had been driven lately.

Besides that.......I don't think that even Patsy could have dumped her daughter in a shallow grave or at the side of the road somewhere. Her actions with the staging (Jonbenet's favorite blanket, the heart in her hand) show that she had affection for her daughter (it just wasn't as strong as her temper was, IMO).

Thanks for your reply wenchie...good points

IMO there's no way a lady having beaten cancer is going to kill her daughter 'cause she wet the bed.....cancer puts life into perspective very quickly. People figure out what is really important and what is not...bedwetting is not. I know families who have gone through it and they are just glad to have one more day...their family, their kids..

JMO

[Juliet10]

Why didn't patsy and john just claim that the big bash in her head was an accident? Writing a note, staging a kidnapping, torture and sexual assault was just about the most riskiest thing they could do. They could've staged it in many ways that would've been much easier. The girl could've fallen down the stairs and bashed her head into a sharp piece of furniture or something. Maybe bouncing on her bed and hit the end of her dresser. That is exactly what many abusive parents do. They say it was an accident. Many parents that abuse their kids get away with it because it's hard to prove that it didn't happen that way. The parents could say they didn't see the accident they just found her injured that way they wouldn' have to get tripped up by their questions. The kid slipped in the bathtub and hit her head on the faucet or whatever. Nobody would've questioned it especially considering it was christmas and the prominent parents involved and it probably would've been swept under the rug just like many suicides are not investigated very thouroughly. By staging an elaborate scene like this they were welcoming an extensive investigation, the FBI that would go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

They could've staged an aisenburg type scenario where the kid is kidnapped from the home. They could've gotten rid of the body and waited until the next night and morning. Nobody would've known she was dead and gone the day before.

I thought most of all the top forensic experts claim the strangulation came before the bash on the head anyway.

I also don't believe Patsy could've done that blow to the head with a flashlight. I don't think she would have the upper body strength. I don't think I could make a gash like that either unless I had a heavy rock and the person's head was on the ground and not standing up.

[Brutal Truth]

Why didn't patsy and john just claim that the big bash in her head was an accident? Writing a note, staging a kidnapping, torture and sexual assault was just about the most riskiest thing they could do. They could've staged it in many ways that would've been much easier. The girl could've fallen down the stairs and bashed her head into a sharp piece of furniture or something. Maybe bouncing on her bed and hit the end of her dresser. That is exactly what many abusive parents do. They say it was an accident. Many parents that abuse their kids get away with it because it's hard to prove that it didn't happen that way. The parents could say they didn't see the accident they just found her injured that way they wouldn' have to get tripped up by their questions. The kid slipped in the bathtub and hit her head on the faucet or whatever. Nobody would've questioned it especially considering it was christmas and the prominent parents involved and it probably would've been swept under the rug just like many suicides are not investigated very thouroughly. By staging an elaborate scene like this they were welcoming an extensive investigation, the FBI that would go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

They could've staged an aisenburg type scenario where the kid is kidnapped from the home. They could've gotten rid of the body and waited until the next night and morning. Nobody would've known she was dead and gone the day before.

I thought most of all the top forensic experts claim the strangulation came before the bash on the head anyway.

I also don't believe Patsy could've done that blow to the head with a flashlight. I don't think she would have the upper body strength. I don't think I could make a gash like that either unless I had a heavy rock and the person's head was on the ground and not standing up.

Why didnt PR do alot of things? Such as cooperate with LE. Take polygraphs administered by the authorites. Keep her stories straight about their innocence.

If you think about it, they didnt go to all this trouble for nothing. Obviously something more happend in the house then a swat on the head and stage the scene. And besides, whether they had said it was and accident or not, it was swept under the rug by the DA. He didnt have the stones to fight the Ramseys tooth and nail to bring JBR justice.

Oh and patsy could easily had the strength to bash the kids head in. She was 6 years old. Her head was still far from being fully developed. Dont be so naive.

[s_finch]

What do you guys think of this statement, that my sister said to me?
She said if Patsy or John killed JonBenet. That Patsy would have made that statement, because she was on her death bed. My sister said, that she would not have wanted to take this to her grave. She would have asked for forgiveness, before she died. Whatcha all think?

I think that possibility is why JR was beside her until her death, to make sure she didn't slip and say something and/or he was there to do "spin control" if she did say something that sounded like a confession. PR died of cancer, right? That's a painful death unless the person is given plenty of narcotics. I would think PR was given enough medication to make her as comfortable as possible. When my own mother was dying of cancer, she was on a lot of pain medication. During this time, my mom mumbled a lot and occasionally said words, she talked out of her head some and sometimes saw things that weren't there.

If the R's were/are in anyway guilty in JBR's death, then her last days must have been especially terrifying for JR. Then again, I feel guilty for typing that so I have to also add, that maybe he loved her dearly and he was there with her for that reason.

[sweetmop]

We have no idea whether or not she did, lilpony. Towards the end, she did say something like "I can't take it back." Where did you hear that she said that?

[LinasK]

Can't we let her rest in peace? If she had murdered in daughter she would be in jail. So I think we should presume her innocent. She didn't appear smart enough to outsmart LE. Besides, she's dead. Isn't that what all you RDI's have always wanted?
No, her death is not what I wanted, now she's taken her dirty little secrets to the grave. The woman is not innocent because she died or even because she wasnt brought to justice (OJ, MJ, Robert Blake come to mind???). A criminal who dies is still a criminal. At best, Patsy was still an accomplice who covered-up her daughter's death!!!

[Anita Richman]

No, her death is not what I wanted, now she's taken her dirty little secrets to the grave. The woman is not innocent because she died or even because she wasnt brought to justice (OJ, MJ, Robert Blake come to mind???). A criminal who dies is still a criminal. At best, Patsy was still an accomplice who covered-up her daughter's death!!!

I agree, LinasK.

[LinasK]

Why didn't patsy and john just claim that the big bash in her head was an accident? Writing a note, staging a kidnapping, torture and sexual assault was just about the most riskiest thing they could do. They could've staged it in many ways that would've been much easier. The girl could've fallen down the stairs and bashed her head into a sharp piece of furniture or something. Maybe bouncing on her bed and hit the end of her dresser. That is exactly what many abusive parents do. They say it was an accident. Many parents that abuse their kids get away with it because it's hard to prove that it didn't happen that way. The parents could say they didn't see the accident they just found her injured that way they wouldn' have to get tripped up by their questions. The kid slipped in the bathtub and hit her head on the faucet or whatever. Nobody would've questioned it especially considering it was christmas and the prominent parents involved and it probably would've been swept under the rug just like many suicides are not investigated very thouroughly. By staging an elaborate scene like this they were welcoming an extensive investigation, the FBI that would go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

They could've staged an aisenburg type scenario where the kid is kidnapped from the home. They could've gotten rid of the body and waited until the next night and morning. Nobody would've known she was dead and gone the day before.

I thought most of all the top forensic experts claim the strangulation came before the bash on the head anyway.

Because an autopsy would have exposed that a Ramsey had sexually abused her, that was the bigger thing they were hiding. Also, Laci Peterson's murder happened at Christmas, her "disappearance" was immediately questioned because it was Christmastime.

[CaliKid]

So do I.

[simplesimon]

I must admit that when I heard a suspect was arrested I was shocked and somewhat relieved! I was surprised how relieved I was that the parents did not do it. I do believe they were involved but still have that little doubt,you know. So in a way I was hoping it was an intruder.I actually felt bad for Patsy because she passed without clearing her name.This case is very confusing that way.The reason I think they are involved is the stupid ransom note,the actions of the R's and Patsy's writing compared to the note ,although I have heard writing analysis called voodoo science. Still their actions are very suspicious. But then I can understand that some people think they could not do that to their daughter especially to cover up something. I ttruly believe that is why the GJ did not indict,just the horrid nature of the crime.

[Camper]

"Super Dave,
"Then where did she discard those extra pages? they were never found in the home."

Actually, they were in the trashbasket.


--->>>Super Dave, WE/I never knew that - HOW'd you know that?

I have a memory like an elephant, but on the other hand an elephant does not have that much to remember, cept where food is, where water is and where another elephant is that 'likes him'.

I am laffin, Dave Letterman had many pictures of a lady that died, she was 116 years old, then showed pictures of her three loving OLD children, the a group of about 5 really olde grandchildren, then a picture of her surviving twin brother Larry, and there was a picture of Larry King. Oh my sides, hee hee.

.

[IrishMist]

We have no idea whether or not she did, lilpony. Towards the end, she did say something like "I can't take it back."I remember reading that, too. "There are some things in life you can't take back."

I'll look for a source.

[Bobbisangel]

How can we come to the conclusion that Patsy beat Karr as the author of the ransom note when, to my knowledge, he has not been asked to write the ransom note word for word like Patsy was? Maybe the reason more letters match between Patsy and the note is because her sample writing was the exact duplicate and contained the exact words of the ransom note. I do not believe the year book writings did. You are not comparing apples to apples here. They need for Karr to write the note and then compare it like they did Patsy to get a better handle on who beat who.

I sat down and wrote some of the words from the note and everytime I wrote a "t" or an "r" or anything with a tail, the tail bled into the next letter. Could it be this is more common than we think?




Wasn't that handwriting gone over with a fine tooth comb back when JonBenet first died? Didn't they check Patsy's writing against the ransom note? I know that the Grand Jury didn't believe that either Ramsey killed JonBenet because there was no evidence that they did it. LE has enough evidence if they could just catch the killer.

As far as I'm concerned they still haven't found the right person. Someone matches that blood/seman on the underwear. When we find out who that is then we will know who murdered JonBenet.

[Nuisanceposter]

I remember reading that, too. "There are some things in life you can't take back."

I'll look for a source.And didn't Patsy also say that one of the first things she would say to JonBenet is, "We need to talk"? WTH?

[southcitymom]

Wasn't that handwriting gone over with a fine tooth comb back when JonBenet first died? Didn't they check Patsy's writing against the ransom note? I know that the Grand Jury didn't believe that either Ramsey killed JonBenet because there was no evidence that they did it. LE has enough evidence if they could just catch the killer.

As far as I'm concerned they still haven't found the right person. Someone matches that blood/seman on the underwear. When we find out who that is then we will know who murdered JonBenet.It remains a fact that when the grand jury heard this case they didn't have nearly the evidence that we have today.

I have never heard that JBR's underwear had semen on it. Is that true? I have heard there is compromised DNA - blood and perhaps (according to Karr) saliva...perhaps some other fluid. Where can I find information regarding semen on her underwear?

[SuperDave]

"Then she would have been busted for sure. Her husband may have woken up, there would have been footprints in the snow, the neighbors might have seen or heard the car leaving, evidence or cadaver scent could have been left in the car, and LE could have felt the hood of the car and known it had been driven lately."

Yeah, it would have been too risky. Remember, Susan Smith was still pretty fresh in people's minds.

"Besides that.......I don't think that even Patsy could have dumped her daughter in a shallow grave or at the side of the road somewhere. Her actions with the staging (Jonbenet's favorite blanket, the heart in her hand) show that she had affection for her daughter (it just wasn't as strong as her temper was, IMO)."

Yes, whomever did this felt very bad about it.

"IMO there's no way a lady having beaten cancer is going to kill her daughter 'cause she wet the bed.....cancer puts life into perspective very quickly. People figure out what is really important and what is not...bedwetting is not. I know families who have gone through it and they are just glad to have one more day...their family, their kids.."

Well, that idea is wrong, Tex. Cancer changes you, makes you feel differently. My father was the greatest guy I knew. When he found out, he was a raging engine of self-destruction, and it bled over to other people in his life.

"Why didn't patsy and john just claim that the big bash in her head was an accident?"

Because that's what they ALL say. Besides, the vaginal injuries would have been a dead giveaway.

"Oh and patsy could easily had the strength to bash the kids head in. She was 6 years old. Her head was still far from being fully developed. Dont be so naive."

Thank you!

"Where did you hear that she said that?"

I think I spotted in in the NE

"No, her death is not what I wanted, now she's taken her dirty little secrets to the grave. The woman is not innocent because she died or even because she wasnt brought to justice (OJ, MJ, Robert Blake come to mind???). A criminal who dies is still a criminal. At best, Patsy was still an accomplice who covered-up her daughter's death!!!"

Yeah, should we let OJ Simpson off the hook when he dies?

"Super Dave, WE/I never knew that - HOW'd you know that?"

Henry Lee has been on TV a lot lately. he said at least one of them was found there.

"Wasn't that handwriting gone over with a fine tooth comb back when JonBenet first died? Didn't they check Patsy's writing against the ransom note?"

Yes, they did. And the consensus was that, out of nearly one-hundred people they tested, only one of them showed evidence of having written it: Patsy.

I quote:

Chet Ubowski (who did the most extensive analysis):

"This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey."

Leonard Speckin was prepared to testify that there was only an infinitestimal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs.

And so on.

Everyone agrees on one thing: whomever wrote the captions in the family photo album wrote the note.

"I know that the Grand Jury didn't believe that either Ramsey killed JonBenet because there was no evidence that they did it."

Wrong. They believed the Ramseys didn't do it because they could believe a parent could inflict those kinds of injuries. Don't take my word for it. They actually said that.

To which FBI agent Ron Walker responded that parents can and have killed their children in every way you can think of.

"It remains a fact that when the grandy jury heard this case they didn't have nearly the evidence that we have today."

Thank you! That's right!

[BloodshotEye]

Try as I may, I can't seem to make the "Patsy Did It" theory stick.
I was open to the possibility, until I read the autopsy report. The report findings lead to the conclusion that strangulation was the cause of death. I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened. The photo of the fracture, suggests that if JBR was alive at the time of the head injury, there would have been a significant amount of blood evidence at the house.

I will provide the link to both below. However, if you prefer not to view these graphic photos, or read the complete report, I totally understand.

The context of this report, is what appeared to be a court hearing on the
Petition for Writ of Certiorari, by the coroner of Boulder County. The respondents were were: ABC, INC.; BOULDER PUBLISHING, INC.; CBS, INC.; DENVER POST CORPORATION; LEHMAN COMMUNICATIONS, INC.; NBC, INC.; AND MCGRAW-HILL BROADCASTING, INC., d/b/a KMGH TV. The petition was denied, and they released the autopsy report, along with "newly released portions" of the autopsy report.

I'll snip some of the most important findings.

"FINAL DIAGNOSIS:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck
B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck
C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage
E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

III. Abrasion of right cheek
IV. Abrasion/contusion, posterior right shoulder
V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg
VI. Abrasion and vancular congestion of vaginal mucosa
VII. Ligature of right wrist" end of first snip

Newly Released Portions of the Autopsy Report:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck

II. Craniocerebral injuries
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage

Note: In the "newly released portions of the autopsy report findings" there are slight difference in the list of injuries related to cause of death and other injuries. The cause of death and injuries are the same.

"CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma."

"REMAINDER OF EXTERNAL EXAMINATION: (text excluded up to this point):
No scalp trauma is identified."

"INTERNAL EXAM: (text excluded up to this point)...
Skull and Brain:
Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of this area of hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area forward to the right frontal area across the parietal portion of the skull. the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures approximately 8.5 inches in length. On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture.

My comments:
The strangulation was effected with a simple cord around the neck. Nothing very complicated. Very simple. The garotte was an "accessory" that was not used to tighten the cord, or othewise effect the strangulation. It was likely an 'accessory', that the perp liked to have, and who knows - maybe use on other occassions, in a fetish sort of way. The perp appeared to have used it in a way that entangled JBRs hair in it; but not to cause strangulation.

Warning: link below is to the CandyRose site, and is the page for the autopsy report and photos.
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

[Wrinkles]

Hello BloodshotEye,

You wrote:
"I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened."

It is almost an absolute that JBR was still breathing, and with her little heart beating, when the head wound was sustained. It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped.

Of course, I defer to an expert per the above.

As per whether Patsy did or did not cause the head blow, that is another story. As per whether the fibers found in the garotted knot had anything to do with Patsy possibly making the garotte, one has to consider based on the evidence.

W

[southcitymom]

Hello BloodshotEye,

You wrote:
"I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened."

It is almost an absolute that JBR was still breathing, and with her little heart beating, when the head wound was sustained. It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped.

Of course, I defer to an expert per the above.

As per whether Patsy did or did not cause the head blow, that is another story. As per whether the fibers found in the garotted knot had anything to do with Patsy possibly making the garotte, one has to consider based on the evidence.

W
Your understanding of the head wound is similar to mine. Most experts agree that it occurred prior to the strangulation.

[Wrinkles]

Hi Southcitymom,

Thanks for responding. I might add "prior to the full affect of a complete strangulation" (i.e. the garotte might have been there, but the child's blood flow and respiration had not yet been stopped by it or as a result of the brain injury yet.)

Bye the way... Do you know if anyone has conjectured whether the small round bruises on little Jon might have been made by someone using the butt end of the paint brush to poke her, i.e. for any reason or to try and break the brush?

Also...do you know if all of those round marks were on her right body?

W

[southcitymom]

Hi Southcitymom,

Thanks for responding. I might add "prior to the full affect of a complete strangulation" (i.e. the garotte might have been there, but the child's blood flow and respiration had not yet been stopped by it or as a result of the brain injury yet.)

Bye the way... Do you know if anyone has conjectured whether the small round bruises on little Jon might have been made by someone using the butt end of the paint brush to poke her, i.e. for any reason or to try and break the brush?

Also...do you know if all of those round marks were on her right body?


I am not much help about the little bruises - I do not recall what side of her body they were on and I have not read any discussion in regards to the little bruises being made by the paint brush. That is very interesting. I may research it a bit later.

[BloodshotEye]

Hello BloodshotEye,
You wrote:
"I.e., JBR was likely already dead, when this massive head injury happened."

It is almost an absolute that JBR was still breathing, and with her little heart beating, when the head wound was sustained. It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped.

Of course, I defer to an expert per the above.

As per whether Patsy did or did not cause the head blow, that is another story. As per whether the fibers found in the garotted knot had anything to do with Patsy possibly making the garotte, one has to consider based on the evidence. W

Hi Wrinkles. Good of you to post. Technically, I think we agree pretty much straight across the board. Unless my eyes have totally dissolved into a blur.

I agree with most aspects of your theory. I agree that JBR's heart may have been beating, to the extent that it was able to pump some blood into vascularized tissue. So we're sort of on the same page, at that point. However, I don't believe it is an "absolute", that the heart had to be physically beating. Maybe consider that the heart is beating, and a cut would result in blood loss. Now consider that the heart beat is stopping or has ceased to beat. The blood flow correspondingly stops. Any cut, may result in some seepage of blood or blood serum (fluid component to blood), but not the gush of blood one would expect when the tissue has blood flow and a beating heart.

According to the autopsy report, no brain swelling was evident, and there was only a very thin layer (7 or 8cc) of hemorage in this area of the fracture. 7 or 8ccs is maybe...2 teaspoons at most (somone feel free to make the exact conversion). This is not the amount of blood loss, one might expect, from such a massive head injury.

I agree, (with a slight clarification) with your expectation that "It is unlikely that there would have been any bleeding or swelling in the brain area, had she been hit on the head after her breathing and heart beating stopped". The autopsy report conclusions suggest exactly that; less then 2 teaspoons of blood into the area of the fracture, and no swelling of the brain.
Quoting Autopsy Report: On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture.

The slight clarification I would make, is that, there could be a very slight amount of bleeding, if JBR was dying, or already dead (for perhaps a minute or so, any ER nurse/dr. out there feel free to adjust time). This amount of seeping or "bleeding" might largely be a function of an individual's coagulation/clotting time.

I agree with your point about the garotte. Who knows who made it. Profilers seem to suggest that the making of a garotte is a "guy" thing. Did a guy make it for Patsy? Who knows. At this point, I'm pretty much open to anything.

Editing: to drop in quote from autopsy re: hemmorage and normal architecture of the brain.

[kelly london]

here is my ONE BIG QUESTION.....


IF and its a BIG IF...there was an intruder, how in the world did he/she KNOW the alarm system was OFF and that the police weren't on their way once they entered the house? just want this answered

[SuperDave]

"According to the autopsy report, no brain swelling was evident"

Look again. It says that the sulci are narrowed and the gyri are flattened. That means the brain had swelled so much it was flat against the skull.

[southcitymom]

here is my ONE BIG QUESTION.....


IF and its a BIG IF...there was an intruder, how in the world did he/she KNOW the alarm system was OFF and that the police weren't on their way once they entered the house? just want this answered
They wouldn't - they couldn't.

[Wrinkles]

Hello SuperDave,

You know, I had read that there was evidence of swelling, but had not confirmed this factually (it would have taken research of documents and terms and asking doctor friends.) You wrote:

"Look again. It says that the sulci are narrowed and the gyri are flattened. That means the brain had swelled so much it was flat against the skull."

Thanks for jogging my memory on this (and for sharing from all of your research and study.) I'm going to assume that the narrowed sulci and flattened gyri are indicative of swelling. Also, it seems to me that I had read that an expert (or maybe more than one) felt that the head injury must have been sustained at least an hour prior to death (probably based on the evidence)?

SuperDave, BloodshotEye brought up an interesting point with a garotte being thought to be a guy kinda thing. Of course, this would depend upon what this particular garotte looked like. I often do guy kinda things (a practical thing to accomplish a task based on some type of science I have learned) without knowing the actual name of them at times i.e. I might use a lever, or a fulcrum and balance, or I might use the handle of a spoon in a loop of rope, twisting it to tighten the loop. Is there a picture of the actual garotte that can be seen? I have heard that whoever made this didn't do a knot quite right to make a good garotte? But was there some type of cubscout or boyscout training on how to make a garotte that this thing was kind of modeled after? I'm not aware of the full thoughts on this?

Ah yes, there are many times when I might "punt" on how to do some practical thing...maybe I haven't put something together quite right, but it performs the same task. As a girlscout, I learned how to make a number of knots many years ago. In fact, I am sure, I learned how to make a hangman's noose at some point (perhaps my brothers showed me?) Was Patsy a Brownie or Girl Scout?

So what do you think SD...might Patsy have known how to make the garotte that was found? Is this a cub scout or boy scout kinda thing that someone might have known?

ALSO, SuperDave... As I look at the autopsy photos, I can't help but think that whoever put that particular rope or twine, or whatever it actually was, around JBRs neck, if they were an adult, did not do so just for a momentary pleasure for they or her and with the intent that she would live afterwards and just scoot off normally in the morning (I just can't buy the erotic asphixia type scenario yet). Surely, an adult would NOT have thought that the rope or twine would NOT have left a mark on her neck (causing someone to question.) I am inclined to believe that whoever put the rope on JBRs neck:

1. was completely clueless about what their use of it would do or show on her neck (and I, so far, cannot buy this was done by a child on a late Dec. 25th)

2. had the intention to kill her (or stage a killing, thinking she was already dead), leaving her body with rope marks, unconcerned.

3. had the intention to do what they wished by use of the rope, then carry her off dead or alive - figuring they would be immune from that which the rope marks would mean.

Has there been a discussion about this particular rope or twine? I understand Patsy bought some things at a hardware store in the weeks prior to JBRs death. Was this rope/twine something she purchased then? I see the pictures and cannot discern if this is a soft but strong kind of nylon product OR if it is a stickery kind of jute twine. I do see scratches on the back of the child's neck, as if little JBR wrestled against the use of the rope or someone wrestled to put it on her. I also see bruises (hemorrhages) from the rope's use. :(

Thanks in advace for your thoughts SD, or for anyone elses's who would like to share.

W

[Juliet10]

All the top experts agree that she was strangled first. Cyril wecht and others. She had broken blood vessels in her eyes a classic and sure sign of strangulation for the cause of death. No ethical expert will dispute long standing forensic facts. If she was bashed on the head first huge blood stains would've been everywhere. There would be no way to clean up all the blood and they didn't have . luminol would've shown a cleanuped crime scene.

The human head has tons of vessels in it. I had a small cut on my head on my head when i bumped my head on table when I picked up my shoes and my skull wasn't even cracked. Blood kept pouring and pouring and pouring out and wouldn't stop and it wasn't a cut that need stitches. I thought it was bad cut that needed stitches because of all the blood. She was definately strangled first.

This doesn't fit with the classic Thomas theory so many feel the need to explain it away.

[Wrinkles]

Hi Juliet10,

As far as I know, there was no scalp laceration, despite the injury to the skull. This was a closed wound, thus there would not have been any bleeding from the scalp.

W

[Jolynna]

The forensic pathologists analyzing the case for Boulder police estimated that between 10 and 45 minutes passed between the time JonBenet sustained her head wound and the time she was strangled, according to author Schiller.

[Wrinkles]

Hello Jolynna,

Thanks for hopping in! I remain a bit unclear... Do you think the forensic pathologists were saying that JBR'S strangulation was complete (i.e. no more breathing or heartbeat) within 10 - 45 minutes after the head wound?

Who is "author Schiller"? Author of what?

Thanks a ton.

W

[Jolynna]

Hi Wrinkles,
Lawrence Schiller, PMPT

My understanding of the conclusion for the blow to the head coming first was that because of the degree of swelling. The pathologists said that JonBenet would had to have been alive for it to have occured. And she would had to have been alive for at least this length of time for it to be to such a degree.

[Jolynna]

Pathologist: No doubt of JonBenet sex assault

Girl was hit on head before she was dead, expert says

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0716jon.htm

[Camper]

Hello Jolynna,

Thanks for hopping in! I remain a bit unclear... Do you think the forensic pathologists were saying that JBR'S strangulation was complete (i.e. no more breathing or heartbeat) within 10 - 45 minutes after the head wound?

Who is "author Schiller"? Author of what?

Thanks a ton.

W



--->>WE are accustomed to so much you may not understand PMPT, is called Perfect Murder Perfect Town. GET it, excellent book for reference to this case!

.

[Wrinkles]

Thank you Jolynna and Camper! :)

Your responses and resources were helpful. Camper, I guess it is time to pick up the book, thanks for the recommend.

The following are a few quotes from the link Camper gave. Perhaps they will help others with information, even as they helped me.

"Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine" had been asked to review JonBenet's autopsy report.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0716jon.htm

>>
The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.

"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''

He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.

The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''

And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.

"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
<<

W

[SuperDave]

"Thanks for jogging my memory on this (and for sharing from all of your research and study.) I'm going to assume that the narrowed sulci and flattened gyri are indicative of swelling."

Specifically, the sulci are the folds of the brain you see in the diagrams. The gyri is the brain matter folded itself.

"Also, it seems to me that I had read that an expert (or maybe more than one) felt that the head injury must have been sustained at least an hour prior to death (probably based on the evidence)?"

Ron Wright, Werner Spitz, Thomas Henry, Henry Lee, etc.

"SuperDave, BloodshotEye brought up an interesting point with a garotte being thought to be a guy kinda thing. Of course, this would depend upon what this particular garotte looked like. I often do guy kinda things (a practical thing to accomplish a task based on some type of science I have learned) without knowing the actual name of them at times i.e. I might use a lever, or a fulcrum and balance, or I might use the handle of a spoon in a loop of rope, twisting it to tighten the loop."

Well, to me, an effective garrote-type device to be used with one hand while molesting her would have the cord wrap completely around her neck and have both ends tied to the handle. That way, one-handed, he can control the pressure as much as he likes.

I"s there a picture of the actual garotte that can be seen?"

Yep.

"I have heard that whoever made this didn't do a knot quite right to make a good garotte?"

That's right. A garrote is a cord with a handle on either end used to strangle. This one was a loop around the neck with a double knot, not a noose knot or a hangman's knot, with a length of cord 1-1/2 feet long that was then mummy-wrapped around the stick. That makes no sense. You'd have to wrap it around your arm to shorten it enough to get any leverage. And if that was the case, there would be NO POINT in putting a handle on it.

"But was there some type of cubscout or boyscout training on how to make a garotte that this thing was kind of modeled after? I'm not aware of the full thoughts on this?"

I've heard it was a Prussik (no idea if I have this right) knot.

"So what do you think SD...might Patsy have known how to make the garotte that was found?"

Michael Kane said that the knot experts they brought in said ANYONE could have made this.

"Is this a cub scout or boy scout kinda thing that someone might have known?"

I never made it to my first merit badge, so I don't know.

"So what do you think SD...might Patsy have known how to make the garotte that was found? Is this a cub scout or boy scout kinda thing that someone might have known?"

The consensus was this was so sloppy, no one with any real knot knowledge did it.

"The forensic pathologists analyzing the case for Boulder police estimated that between 10 and 45 minutes passed between the time JonBenet sustained her head wound and the time she was strangled, according to author Schiller."

That's right.

"Thanks for hopping in! I remain a bit unclear... Do you think the forensic pathologists were saying that JBR'S strangulation was complete (i.e. no more breathing or heartbeat) within 10 - 45 minutes after the head wound?"

That's what they were saying!

[keriekerie]

Ok, I know this is out there, but, could Patsy have awoke early that morning, went to check on JonBenet, found her dead, and just assumed that Burke or John had killed her? From there it would have been a plan to make sure the police thought it was a kidnapping gone awry. It's possible that Patsy went to her grave believing that her husband or son killed her daughter. Also possible that the 3 of them never really knew which one commited the crime, but stayed true to their story in order to protect the others.

hi
why would she assume that?I dont think she would.

[SuperDave]

Good question!

[Solace]

Because an autopsy would have exposed that a Ramsey had sexually abused her, that was the bigger thing they were hiding. Also, Laci Peterson's murder happened at Christmas, her "disappearance" was immediately questioned because it was Christmastime.
Linask,

You've got it. I have been going over and over this and that has to be it. They staged this thing because there was prior abuse. There is a reason I read these Boards. Thank you. Linask. I really believe you have it with this. Why else would Patsy do what she did. She could have said she fell and hit her head in the bathtub even though she might have to explain why she was giving her a bath so late, she could have said because we were leaving early.

There had to be sexual abuse.;)

[Seeker]

Well, to me, an effective garrote-type device to be used with one hand while molesting her would have the cord wrap completely around her neck and have both ends tied to the handle. That way, one-handed, he can control the pressure as much as he likes.

Unless he twisted it...the Thugee cult used to use a scarf and twist it behind the neck of their victim. Often times they would use a stick to twist it with...

[Eagle1]

Unless he twisted it...the Thugee cult used to use a scarf and twist it behind the neck of their victim. Often times they would use a stick to twist it with...

Weren't we discussing the two Ca. guys being in the Kali cult at the time we talked about the Thugee? Do you now remember who started us on that? I certainly don't.

[Seeker]

Weren't we discussing the two Ca. guys being in the Kali cult at the time we talked about the Thugee? Do you now remember who started us on that? I certainly don't.
No, but I do remember the poster implied that they believed JB was strangled with a scarf like that and then the ligature was applied. As for the FW houseguests being in a cult that was just pure speculation to try and make their theory fit IMO.

[SuperDave]

"Unless he twisted it...the Thugee cult used to use a scarf and twist it behind the neck of their victim. Often times they would use a stick to twist it with..."

Right, but they still tied the ends to the stick. This one had one end tied to the stick. Twisting it would have done no good.

[Seeker]

"Unless he twisted it...the Thugee cult used to use a scarf and twist it behind the neck of their victim. Often times they would use a stick to twist it with..."

Right, but they still tied the ends to the stick. This one had one end tied to the stick. Twisting it would have done no good.
I don't know that they had both ends tied or just one end with the other looped through so it would catch (kinda like my shoelaces this morning). You know what I mean? Kinda like a figure 8, but not tied, just looped over a couple of times.

I do know that the Thugee's would also tie a knot in the middle of the scarf for maximum effectiveness.

And for Eagle, Kali is the Hindu goddess of creation and of death. I, like you, find absolutely nothing denoting her as a representation of time.
Thought you'd like this site if you haven't seen it already. Kali (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm)

[Eagle1]

I'm thinking that when we first discussed Kali and The Thugee, there was some kind of connection, or maybe it was the new (?) scarf that JR put in the casket that reminded us of The Thugee.

Websleuths has changed sites quite a lot in the past, Rupert, so I don't think we can depend on finding things archived. You asked for a source about the 2 Ca. guys being members of a Kali cult. Maybe I'll ask around at some other forums if I don't forget, and if nobody else here remembers. I just may come across it in my old printouts, don't know if I'll get to them soon.

Never heard anything specific about Kali and Time, but the followers seemed to want to think she was goddess of just about everything.

To me the question is, does McReyolds-McSanta's "Unity" religion include all the cults like this one? And the Ramseys were confused because whatever was happening was called religion and they were overpowered? They would not want to rat out a false religion for fear of reprisals? Just guessing, obviously. There almost has to be something the friends had in common. Were they maybe all experimenting with this kind of thing?

On LKL about Warren Jeffs, didn't they say the men in that faction of that religion think molesting is religion, just don't know anything else? There were/are all sorts of religions in Boulder, I remember we discussed. Pagans held moonlight ceremonies out in the hills, and there was a rumor about a student rental house by the entrance to the park. Candy provided a list of the students who'd lived there, which list I see I still have, but none of them were there for the following university term. I rather doubt anything happened in that house, but might some Pagans have taken her and brought her back to the Ramsey house??? Not saying I believe that either.

[Seeker]

I rather doubt anything happened in that house, but might some Pagans have taken her and brought her back to the Ramsey house???

No. We can discuss Paganism via PM if you're interested in rites and rituals, none of them include child sacrifice, or molestation.

[SuperDave]

I can vouch for that.