Breaking News 8/27 Sunday

[JBean]

What will happen today??

[angelwngs]

It's 5:00 AM.... and like an idiot I have been here all day and all night Saturday...until these wee hours of Sunday morning...only to spin a yarn of my ideas of how it might have happened... To decide 5 minutes ago that there is no way it could have happened that way.... Geeze... I need sleep...

Good nite JBean and everyone... I'll see you all after the dust clears....from my foggy brain.

[Warof2010]

SNIP

I have a member of my family who is a police officer and she deals with rape and sexual abuse cases.

SNIP
.kazzbar, as I am sure your sister would agree, that a sadistic predator pedophile serial killer, is just about off the charts for depravity. This makes the average rapist look like a saint. This is the lowest form of life in this world.

[Warof2010]

Buzz, you are right it is not something that we could stand.I have a member of my family who is a police officer and she deals with rape and sexual abuse cases. Nothing is really that surprising. Was he going to attend the college as teacher or student? Were things on the 'up' for him?
Do you have any idea whether he was in a good place in his life (!) or not.kazzbar, bear with me, I am going to try to approach this from a little different angle.

In 1996, John Mark Karr, had three boys 3,4, and 6. He was in his first semester at Bevill State Community Colege. John Mark Karr hadn't yet become the type of pedophile that would consider going 1500 miles, each way, to murder a six year old girl. I think on Dec. 26th, or 27th, when John Mark Karr heard about Jon Benet's murder, he was really excited by it. I am certain he followed the Jon Benet case far more than any of us might have. When John Mark Karr truly decided to follow a path was when he moved his family to Petaluma. That was an ouitright statement of where he was headed. Then within six months he had begin to express his fantasies to Wendy Hutchens, and was caught with child porn. The John Mark Karr of today is indeed very capable of murdering a young girl, and by now, he may have actually done it. But I don't think he murdered Jon Benet, it's just too much of a stretch for me to see John Mark Karr, go from a 2, on the pedophile scale, in 1996, to a perfect 10, in December, 1996, as he is now in 2006

[Peter Hamilton]

good post Buzz--I agree

[Eagle1]

It's 5:00 AM.... and like an idiot I have been here all day and all night Saturday...until these wee hours of Sunday morning...only to spin a yarn of my ideas of how it might have happened... To decide 5 minutes ago that there is no way it could have happened that way.... Geeze... I need sleep...

Good nite JBean and everyone... I'll see you all after the dust clears....from my foggy brain.

Hope there's some news today. Bumping this up to the top.

[Show Me]

I expect someone else to come forward and claim they saw Karr in Boulder the night JonBenet was murdered.

Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame....

[aussiesheila]

kazzbar, bear with me, I am going to try to approach this from a little different angle.

In 1996, John Mark Karr, had three boys 3,4, and 6. He was in his first semester at Bevill State Community Colege. John Mark Karr hadn't yet become the type of pedophile that would consider going 1500 miles, each way, to murder a six year old girl. I think on Dec. 26th, or 27th, when John Mark Karr heard about Jon Benet's murder, he was really excited by it. I am certain he followed the Jon Benet case far more than any of us might have. When John Mark Karr truly decided to follow a path was when he moved his family to Petaluma. That was an ouitright statement of where he was headed. Then within six months he had begin to express his fantasies to Wendy Hutchens, and was caught with child porn. The John Mark Karr of today is indeed very capable of murdering a young girl, and by now, he may have actually done it. But I don't think he murdered Jon Benet, it's just too much of a stretch for me to see John Mark Karr, go from a 2, on the pedophile scale, in 1996, to a perfect 10, in December, 1996, as he is now in 2006Yes Buzzm1, I think you are right. So what is your opinion as to how JMK came by the details of the crime that have not been made public by investigators?

[joeskidbeck]

I hope this is the place to post this comment (I didn't see it anywhere else).

Steve Huff is scheduled to be on MSNBC this morning between 9 and 10. He will
probably have some interesting comments!

[mysteriew]

I expect someone else to come forward and claim they saw Karr in Boulder the night JonBenet was murdered.

Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame....

Some guy was on tv the other day, said he was about 13 when Karr was around and he always made him uncomfortable. Said Karr was always patting him on the shoulder. The reporter asked him flat out- did he molest you or anything and the guy said "oh no nothing like that".

[JBean]

I wasn't around yesterday so i do not know if this article was posted. So here it is anyway.

http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4245073


Kin: Letter shows Karr in Ga. in '96
By Kirk Mitchell and Jeremy P. Meyer
Denver Post Staff Writers
A letter John Mark Karr's ex-wife wrote shortly after Christmas 1996 is the latest evidence his family offers that he could not have been in Colorado when he says he killed JonBenet Ramsey.

[kelly london]

here is the best thing i heard last night....

lets say karr was in georgia for christmas 1996 - okay, HOW did he know about Jon Benet Ramey??? Did you or anyone here KNOW about her BEFORE she was killed? Did anyone see pics of her all dressed up on television? She only became famous and known by all thru death. So, how did he know to fly to Boulder, find her house, etc. to assault and kill her???

[JBean]

here is the best thing i heard last night....

lets say karr was in georgia for christmas 1996 - okay, HOW did he know about Jon Benet Ramey??? Did you or anyone here KNOW about her BEFORE she was killed? Did anyone see pics of her all dressed up on television? She only became famous and known by all thru death. So, how did he know to fly to Boulder, find her house, etc. to assault and kill her???I think the thought is that since she was on the beauty pageant type circuit, there may be those pedophiles that follow them and track their business. The thing that makes me stop and think again is that in 1996 the internet, while certainly a large influence, was not "in every home" like it is now. Today it would be a no brainer how he found her, but 10 years ago, it would have been a bit more challeniging to track her whereabouts, IMO.

[Mabel]

here is the best thing i heard last night....

lets say karr was in georgia for christmas 1996 - okay, HOW did he know about Jon Benet Ramey??? Did you or anyone here KNOW about her BEFORE she was killed? Did anyone see pics of her all dressed up on television? She only became famous and known by all thru death. So, how did he know to fly to Boulder, find her house, etc. to assault and kill her???

That's exactly what I've been wondering, Kelly. Why did Karr target JonBenet? How did he even know of her existence let alone know that he'd have the opportunity to abduct/kill her on Christmas night? It just doesn't make sense that he would travel all that way on the off chance that an opportunity might present itself. If he lived nearby and was able to basically stalk her or monitor her parent's routine it might make more sense but otherwise....I just don't get it. And, if his intention was to kidnap JonBenet, where was he planning to keep her? He surely couldn't take her home to his family.

[Yaya]

I wasn't around yesterday so i do not know if this articel was posted. So here it is anyway.
http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4245073 (http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4245073)
Hi JBean,
Good article, thanks for posting it. I don’t claim to have a clue who killed JBR even though I have followed the case since she was murdered. Right now, I am just trying to decide if JMK is a total attention seeking pervert or if he is truly a murderer. That article you posted really makes me wonder who is telling the truth, John or his family.

From article you posted:
To prove their point about Karr's innocence, family members have gone so far as to tell family secrets.
Harris said that Patricia Elaine Adcock, the mentally ill mother of John and Michael Karr, laid out a blanket in their living room, set a guitar and Bible on the blanket and asked the boys to lie down. She then told them she would light the blanket and them on fire. Michael Karr grabbed his brother's hand and took him to a neighbor, Harris said.

John Karr was 4 at the time, and he and his older brother Michael went to Hamilton, Ala., to live with their grandparents. His mother was committed to the Georgia State Hospital in Milledgeville, according to several reports. Harris said John Karr has virtually no recollection of his mother.

From the Wendy Hutchens website Profile:
John was born in Atlanta Georgia and moved to Hamilton Alabama when he was five years old. Although details of John’s childhood are still very sketchy and incomplete the following is what he has said of his up bringing, thus far.
John has one older sibling and one younger half sibling who did not live with him as a child but was there off and on. John describes his childhood as both wonderful and perfect, with him being the spoiled baby of the family who could do no wrong. And as terrifying and abusive with physical and sexual abuse that started as an infant and lasted until he was taken away from his mother at the age of nine.

My questions are:
Who is telling the truth… John or his family?
How much do they have to hide?
How long was the mother in a mental institution?
Did she regain custody of John when she got out and if so how long was he with her?

[kelly london]

of all the pagents across the united states with little girls in them, i find it difficult to believe that KARR found JON BENET and tracked her all the way to her house and hid waiting for her to come home. it just doesn't add up. how did he KNOW the security was OFF?

[JBean]

Hi yaya..I think there are answers in the threads regarding the mother.
But the rest as far`as who is telling the truth? I think they are all nuts, but the printed story about trying to burn the kids seems to be true as far`as I know?
But the chances of it being Karr are really really remote. I do think he probably represents a pretty good idea of what the real murderer may be like.

[Old Broad]

I think the thought is that since she was on the beauty pageant type circuit, there may be those pedophiles that follow them and track their business. The thing that makes me stop and think again is that in 1996 the internet, while certainly a large influence, was not "in every home" like it is now. Today it would be a no brainer how he found her, but 10 years ago, it would have been a bit more challeniging to track her whereabouts, IMO.

Maybe he'd gotten or seen one of those form Christmas letters from Patsy.
Would that have been hand written also so he'd have a good sample of her writing?

OB

[Yaya]

Hi yaya..I think there are answers in the threads regarding the mother.
I've been lurking around most all the threads daily (You know the old saying, "It is better to be thought stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt") I have seen several post about the mother but all that I remember seeing is like you said... she did try to set him on fire... but I don't remember seeing anything about when she got out or if she regained custody of John.

If anyone knows the answer to this please post it :)

[JBean]

I've been lurking around most all the threads daily (You know the old saying, "It is better to be thought stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt") I have seen several post about the mother but all that I remember seeing is like you said... she did try to set him on fire... but I don't remember seeing anything about when she got out or if she regained custody of John.

If anyone knows the answer to this please post it :)I'll start the Q&A thread now

[scarpetta]

My opinions are similar to Buzz’.

Polly Klaas was murdered in 1993, and JonBenet was murdered in 1996. Karr moved his family to Petaluma in 2000 after becoming obsessed with the Klaas murder.


Unless I have my information wrong, there were only 5 photos of child pornography found on Karr’s computer. I believe that one photo is too many, but pedophiles typically have thousands and thousands of files each containing numerous photos of child pornography. Why was Karr content with only 5 photos?

When a pedophile is the type that obsesses about a specific type of little girl, and satisfies that specific obsession by breaking into a home and torturing and murdering the object of his obsession, he does not then become the type that begins to obsess about another young girl who has already been murdered by someone else. If she is already dead, this type of pedophile knows he will never be able to satisfy, or experience in reality, his obsession.

Some murderers like to relive their crimes over and over. They do this by keeping a “souvenir” from the crime scene, or by collecting news articles about their crime as a way to celebrate their “accomplishment” and “notoriety.”

What they don’t typically do is spend years researching the facts of the crime, and gathering information about how the crime may have been committed. Why? Because they are the one who committed the crime, so that means they are also the only living person on the planet that already knows more about how the crime was committed than does anyone else.

Did LE find news clippings? Souvenirs?

What is also common among this type of pedophile that Karr is claiming to be, is that the obsession that gets murdered is replaced with another obsession of the same type. Did LE find any evidence of another obsession? Were all the pornographic photos found on his computer of the same person?

Pedophiles always prefer to keep their activities very hidden, unless they are swapping information with other pedophiles. Murderers also prefer to keep it hidden as well, and they don’t generally like to share information unless they are ready to be arrested or want the notoriety published, or both. I am assuming then that a murdering pedophile is not blabbing his activities to your average Joe. Is there anyone associated with Karr that didn’t know that he was obsessed with the JBR case?

From my armchair this confession looks fishy, but like viruses, weirdo’s seem to be mutating more and more these days. So what do I know, this guy could be a new strain of creepy.

[Warof2010]

I think the thought is that since she was on the beauty pageant type circuit, there may be those pedophiles that follow them and track their business. The thing that makes me stop and think again is that in 1996 the internet, while certainly a large influence, was not "in every home" like it is now. Today it would be a no brainer how he found her, but 10 years ago, it would have been a bit more challeniging to track her whereabouts, IMO.JBean, there was an article where Karr helped a female acquaintaince, in Hamilton, Alabama, set-up, or fix, her computer in the spring of 1997, so he apparently had good computer skills.

[scandi]

Hi Scarpetta,

There might have been a souvenir.

A gold earing belonging to JonBenet was found on the side of the street in front of the Ramsey house. I don't know if it was a match to another gold earing found on the Santa Bear that held the pouch to the bear. I think it was noted the mate to the earing on the bear was not found in JB's bedroom.

It leaves room to ponder that maybe the killer affixed the earing to the bear and took the other earing as a souvenir. The pouch was already on a tie placed around the tummy of the bear, so the earing was not necessary to hold the pouch in place.

It then seems to me that this killer wanted to have a special bond with her, and this could have served his purpose.


Scandi

[scandi]

Morning Buzz,

I also heard the Karr's babysitter interviewed on TV, and she stated the room where Karr kept his computer was always locked and off limits for anone to enter.

Scandi

[JDB]

Hi Scarpetta,

There might have been a souvenir.

A gold earing belonging to JonBenet was found on the side of the street in front of the Ramsey house. I don't know if it was a match to another gold earing found on the Santa Bear that held the pouch to the bear. I think it was noted the mate to the earing on the bear was not found in JB's bedroom.

It leaves room to ponder that maybe the killer affixed the earing to the bear and took the other earing as a souvenir. The pouch was already on a tie placed around the tummy of the bear, so the earing was not necessary to hold the pouch in place.

It then seems to me that this killer wanted to have a special bond with her, and this could have served his purpose.


Scandi
Scandi before the DA can even link the earrings to Karr they have one really huge task. They have to proof Karr was in Boulder that day.I still say this is man man obseesed by the Murder and was there in his mine alone.I think when the dust settles we are going to find the DA can not proved Karr did it.

[lighthouselover]

Scarpetta, I couldn't agree with you more. I have been asking the same questions. Why only 5 DELETED photos?

IMO (which only amounts to as much as the next), Wendy Hutchens emailed those photos to him what could only be considered a "sting" type operation. Remember, she says she was supposed to act like a child molester to gain his confidence. Again, IMO, that's how they knew he had the photos. The reason, I can surmise, is that they could have at least had that conviction (hopefully) which would result in him having to register as a sex offender and at least his teaching days would be over.

All that is just my speculation, of course.

But they didn't find anything else to link him to any other crime. Why?

Where are all his "victims"? Where is his criminal history? Nobody has 'dug up' so much as a traffic ticket.

[Warof2010]

Morning Buzz,

I also heard the Karr's babysitter interviewed on TV, and she stated the room where Karr kept his computer was always locked and off limits for anone to enter.

ScandiScandi, come to think of it, if I had 3, 4, and 6 year old kids running around the house, my computer room would be off limits to everyone too. But in Karr's case, we have have strong suspicions, that he was using it for nefarious purposes. It is strange they only found 5 cp images on his computer in April, 2001, unless he had a separate storage device for his pictures.

[netsleuth]

They have to proof Karr was in Boulder that day.I still say this is man man obseesed by the Murder and was there in his mine alone.I think when the dust settles we are going to find the DA can not proved Karr did it.JORDAN: Well, I think that most people in the criminology community today don't believe that his behavior and his profile as a pedophile is consistent with this crime scene.

He — you would have to be an extraordinarily highly organized killer to — who planned it thoroughly to not leave any DNA at the scene.

And nothing in his background, which is of course a very disturbed childhood, no doubt that he's a fixated preferential pedophile. But those types of pedophiles are rarely killers who bash in the skull of a six-year old girl. This just isn't consistent with what we know about a man like him.

And don't forget he says he loves, present tense, JonBenet.CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210607,00.html

Also good discussion regarding DNA in this interview.

[Hyatt]

Scarpetta, I couldn't agree with you more. I have been asking the same questions. Why only 5 DELETED photos?

IMO (which only amounts to as much as the next), Wendy Hutchens emailed those photos to him what could only be considered a "sting" type operation. Remember, she says she was supposed to act like a child molester to gain his confidence. Again, IMO, that's how they knew he had the photos. The reason, I can surmise, is that they could have at least had that conviction (hopefully) which would result in him having to register as a sex offender and at least his teaching days would be over.

All that is just my speculation, of course.

But they didn't find anything else to link him to any other crime. Why?

Where are all his "victims"? Where is his criminal history? Nobody has 'dug up' so much as a traffic ticket.Lighthouselover, I could have written every word of your post. I have been asking myself exactly those same questions, entertaining the exact same thoughts. And I would like to hear Wendy's part of the conversation which has been excerpted. Excerpts are a problem because they are soundbites without context.

So that is not just YOUR speculation but MINE too. Something doesn't feel right here.

JMO

[Warof2010]

If anyone has any other information for Karr's life in the fall of 1996, please post it.

1996--August–September 1996: Karr served as a substitute teacher at Hamilton Elementary School. In September 1996, Karr was fired from a substitute teaching job in Alabama after parents complained about his classroom etiquette. "Things he would say in my opinion were not needed to be said in a classroom of elementary students," said Marion County School Superintendent Bravell Jackson.

1996 fall, John Mark Karr begins attending Bevill State Community College, in Hamilton, Alabama
During that time he also ran a used car business, according to Marion County Probate Judge Annette Bozeman, who often saw Karr in her office working on car titles

1996 - Gary Williams, assistant superintendent of Alabama's Franklin County School System, confirmed to TIME that John Mark Karr worked as a substitute teacher there on December 17, 18 and 19, of 1996.. He continued as a substitute teacher until May of 1997. While there, the elementary-school principal reprimanded Karr for behaving inappropriately with students. "She suspected some things and confronted him," said Williams. "He made corrections."

[luvbeaches]

I think the thought is that since she was on the beauty pageant type circuit, there may be those pedophiles that follow them and track their business. The thing that makes me stop and think again is that in 1996 the internet, while certainly a large influence, was not "in every home" like it is now. Today it would be a no brainer how he found her, but 10 years ago, it would have been a bit more challeniging to track her whereabouts, IMO.

And why JonBenet? If he was hanging around the pagents, and he really wanted to get to one of the little girls, he surely could have found one much closer to his home.

I think he became fascinated with this after she was murdered, and then has fantasized about it ever since...so much in fact, that he can't separate fact from fantasy. He's sick and he's where he should be...but he's in the wrong jail. He should be locked up in California, not Colorado.

When JonBenet was killed...there was a media frenzy. He gobbled all the little tidbits about her life up in his sick mind. Like with Polly...you'd have to be a nutcake to have a copy of her death certificate.

You couldn't pay me enough to be a cop. The world is full of nuts!

[scandi]

Steve Huff was goinig to be on TV this morning, and I'm wondering if anyone heard him and what did he have to say. Supposedly he had something interesting!

Maybe he'll come here and post it. YaYa


Scandi

[Amity]

JBean,
Just wanted to say thank you for starting these dailies and also thank you for the article. I had read so much about the mother wanting to start a fire but it was always an article that only talked about JK being the one in the center of the fire pit. This article really gives a much more detailed account. The fact that his family are willing to unveil "family secrets" to help prove JK's innocences speaks volumes to me.

[Amity]

Sandi,
I've been watching all morning (or at least listening while I do other things) and because of the Conair Crash Breaking News, I haven't heard anything related to JK but I'll keep my ears tuned.

[Ca-Sun]

If anyone has any other information for Karr's life in the fall of 1996, please post it.
"
Insignificant, probably, but he was posting on the net on March 9, 1996 to the alt.support.loneliness newsgroup talking about powerwurks.com

[scandi]

Oooohhhh, Good Job Cal-Sun! :clap:

And thanks Amity. I had a feeling that would be the case. Guess I'll have to check out his blog.


Scandi

[Eagle1]

Karr's wife wrote a Thank You to Karr's brother, not mentioning Karr specifically, is the way I heard it. He may or may not have been with her and the children.

[dottierainbow]

[Scandi what show?
Amy


QUOTE=scandi]Steve Huff was goinig to be on TV this morning, and I'm wondering if anyone heard him and what did he have to say. Supposedly he had something interesting!

Maybe he'll come here and post it. YaYa


Scandi[/QUOTE]

[scandi]

I don't know Dottie,

I read it when I first got here this morning and all they said was it would be around 9am PT. Well, at that time all that was on any cable news show was the Con Air accident in Kentucky.


Scandi

[Ca-Sun]

Oooohhhh, Good Job Cal-Sun! :clap:

And thanks Amity. I had a feeling that would be the case. Guess I'll have to check out his blog.


ScandiThanks, Scandi. Here is a a little ore information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mark_Karr#Career
In 1996, about the time the powerwurks.com website was created, multiple posts were made to various Usenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet) newsgroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup) by a John Karr. In one post Karr described himself as a 31 year old with 3 young children, and that he planned to attend college and major in elementary education. One post purported to be from a 23-year-old woman named Lara, which coincided in both name and age to Karr's then-wife Lara. The posts were made to newsgroups dedicated to topics like "parents-teens", "personals", and groups frequented by students from elementary through high school. The posts contained references to the powerwurks.com website, and some described the purpose of the site.

[scandi]

Thanks Ca-Sun,

So there is a possibility his wife was involved in powerwurks? Hmmmmm I wonder if she knew what was going through his mind?


Scandi

[panthera]

And why JonBenet? If he was hanging around the pagents, and he really wanted to get to one of the little girls, he surely could have found one much closer to his home.

I think he became fascinated with this after she was murdered, and then has fantasized about it ever since...so much in fact, that he can't separate fact from fantasy. He's sick and he's where he should be...but he's in the wrong jail. He should be locked up in California, not Colorado.

When JonBenet was killed...there was a media frenzy. He gobbled all the little tidbits about her life up in his sick mind. Like with Polly...you'd have to be a nutcake to have a copy of her death certificate.

You couldn't pay me enough to be a cop. The world is full of nuts!I agree with you! Why JonBenet when there were others in the pageants who would've been much more accessable. Even back in 1996, that would've been a lot of money to spend for an overnight airline trip to Colorado. Unless he'd seen her, or knew of the Ramseys, and specifically wanted her.

What I'd like to know, is exactly when did his fascinaton with Polly Klaas begin? Her case was all over the national media, and he could've become so obsessed with her murder that he envisioned himself wanting to be like Richard Allen Davis. Obviously he had so much of an obsession that he moved to Petaluma, several years after her death.

[JBean]

JBean, there was an article where Karr helped a female acquaintaince, in Hamilton, Alabama, set-up, or fix, her computer in the spring of 1997, so he apparently had good computer skills.Hi BUzz..I am back.That's an interesting tidbit. But, I was thinking more along the lines of the pageant information and pictures not being completely available on the internet as they would be now. Today there would be pages of information, background info, addresses, the whole nine yeads. In 1996 I would GUESS that was not the norm.

[JBean]

JBean,
Just wanted to say thank you for starting these dailies and also thank you for the article. I had read so much about the mother wanting to start a fire but it was always an article that only talked about JK being the one in the center of the fire pit. This article really gives a much more detailed account. The fact that his family are willing to unveil "family secrets" to help prove JK's innocences speaks volumes to me.well you are certainly welcome.

[chiquita2]

Since the Ramseys have ties to Atlanta and JMK seems to have ties to Atlanta, is there a possibility that their paths crossed there years ago? I am really pretty ignorant when it comes to this case so I have no idea where JonB lived before Boulder or if she always lived there or what. Just thinking that maybe JMK had scoped her out much earlier than right before she died.

[Warof2010]

Hi BUzz..I am back.That's an interesting tidbit. But, I was thinking more along the lines of the pageant information and pictures not being completely available on the internet as they would be now. Today there would be pages of information, background info, addresses, the whole nine yeads. In 1996 I would GUESS that was not the norm.JBean, the porn industry lead the charge onto the internet, well before any other businesses, and they are way ahead, and they stay ahead, of the federal regulators. I saw a program a week, or so, and the dollar numbers, involved in internet porn, are completely staggering, and they were already staggering in the early 90's.

In JMK's resume, he mentioned that he taught computer skills at some time in his "career." I wonder how many buy computers specifically for accessing porn on the internet.

[Shelayne]

Since the Ramseys have ties to Atlanta and JMK seems to have ties to Atlanta, is there a possibility that their paths crossed there years ago? I am really pretty ignorant when it comes to this case so I have no idea where JonB lived before Boulder or if she always lived there or what. Just thinking that maybe JMK had scoped her out much earlier than right before she died.

Well, I don't know if this is anything. Could be something, maybe nothing, but JonBenet was in the Little Miss Sunburst International finals in on August 13, 2006 and either won or placed second. Apparently they were down there for several days. Atlanta is a large city, but who knows?

[Warof2010]

***************************
Petaluma confidants paint portrait of Karr

In the summer of 2000, after moving across the country from Alabama to Petaluma, John Mark Karr told acquaintances that he stopped in Boulder, Colo., to visit the house where JonBenet Ramsey had been discovered slain four years earlier.

"He said his wife and kids got mad because he diverted the trip," said Dennis Melfa, who got to know Karr in Petaluma at a class for adults joining the Catholic church.

Karr said his family had been upset because he parked them in a motel for a full day "while he went out and walked around the grounds of JonBenet's house, and touched the house and felt things, and got a feel for the place," said Melfa, 59.

"He said it was for research for his book," Melfa said.

Today, Karr, who was briefly a substitute teacher in Petaluma and a student teacher and substitute in Napa, sits in Boulder County Jail, about 5 miles from the former Ramsey home, facing charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping and sexual assault in connection with the infamous 1996 killing.

Arrested in Thailand, Karr has said he was with the former child beauty queen when she died at age 6, but that her death was an accident. People including Karr's family members and his estranged ex-wife, still a Petaluma resident, have publicly doubted his confession.

The recollections of Melfa and others who knew Karr locally shed no new light on whether the 41-year-old Georgia native killed Ramsey.

But they further illustrate the depths of his apparent obsession with young girls and their murders, and they also fill in a few more blanks in the portrait of an enigmatic figure.

Melfa and Karr met in August 2000 in a Rite of Christian Initiation class they attended once a week at the St. Vincent De Paul Catholic Church.

During introductions at the group's first meeting, Melfa mentioned his involvement with a San Francisco barbershop chorus. Karr said he was a singer, too, and not long after Melfa took him to a tryout. Karr, a tenor, did well and was asked to return.

The way Karr presented himself impressed the group, the San Francisco Cable Car Chorus, as much as his voice. "He was the kind of guy who was always, like, on a performance, so they loved him," Melfa said.

"He wanted to be the center of attention," said Camilla Edwards, 74, a former nun and teacher who led the church class.

"In the group, he did a lot of talking. He wanted to make himself known," Edwards said.

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060827/NEWS/608270304

[Wrinkles]

Has anyone posted the link to this article yet?

Calif. lawyers pick young local to represent John Mark Karr (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4946877,00.html)

In the article, Harmon is stated as saying:

>>
Harmon also noted that she does not want Cohen, who is due to give birth in January, to suffer any stress in the coming months.

And, she said, "I'm going to be the captain of the ship, and I don't think there's any question about that with anybody.

"Just because I don't know the specifics of your legal system in Colorado - and believe me I've been learning a lot more about it in the last 24 hours - that doesn't mean I'm going to let you take over. That's not going to happen."
<<

Hmmmm

[TexMex]

JBean, the porn industry lead the charge onto the internet, well before any other businesses, and they are way ahead, and they stay ahead, of the federal regulators. I saw a program a week, or so, and the dollar numbers, involved in internet porn, are completely staggering, and they were already staggering in the early 90's.

In JMK's resume, he mentioned that he taught computer skills at some time in his "career." I wonder how many buy computers specifically for accessing porn on the internet.


Hi Buzz....that is VERY true. I went with a buddy to one of his friends homes. This is in the early 90's....this friend of my friend was always in front of his computer. This is the first place I heard about the "internet". Come to find out this friend of my friend was using his computer to look at child porn and was later accused of luring young boys to his home for sex....after his arrest he blew his brains out--right there in front of his computer....

[MrsMush99]

OOOOOHHHH Harmon isn't pregnant that woman Cohen is. Who the heck is she??? I'm getting more and more confused by the minute. Apparently Harmon has no intention of stepping aside. I wish the media would get it right for once. I'm beginning to feel like I'm misreporting. :(

ETA: This is from the link Wrinkles posted.

[Warof2010]

Hi Buzz....that is VERY true. I went with a buddy to one of his friends homes. This is in the early 90's....this friend of my friend was always in front of his computer. This is the first place I heard about the "internet". Come to find out this friend of my friend was using his computer to look at child porn and was later accused of luring young boys to his home for sex....after his arrest he blew his brains out--right there in front of his computer....Man TexMex, what a story. Only recently have they had much success at catching up with the pedophiles on the internet, and even with the progress, it's still flourishing. To get down to the level of where John Mark karr was, in getting off on a sexual predator pedophile murdered young girls, you would have had to go very low. I'll bet at that level it's one very special club to be in.

[dottierainbow]

Its ok Mrs Mush. It happens more than we think here. :blowkiss:
Amy
OOOOOHHHH Harmon isn't pregnant that woman Cohen is. Who the heck is she??? I'm getting more and more confused by the minute. Apparently Harmon has no intention of stepping aside. I wish the media would get it right for once. I'm beginning to feel like I'm misreporting. :(

ETA: This is from the link Wrinkles posted.

[scandi]

Has anyone posted the link to this article yet?

Calif. lawyers pick young local to represent John Mark Karr (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4946877,00.html)

In the article, Harmon is stated as saying:

>>
Harmon also noted that she does not want Cohen, who is due to give birth in January, to suffer any stress in the coming months.

And, she said, "I'm going to be the captain of the ship, and I don't think there's any question about that with anybody.
"Just because I don't know the specifics of your legal system in Colorado - and believe me I've been learning a lot more about it in the last 24 hours - that doesn't mean I'm going to let you take over. That's not going to happen."
<<

Hmmmm

OMG that was a great article!

What is wrong with that woman? I am all for women being respected and treated fairly but this gal must turn off every man she ever meets! Power is what she wants and control her method. Geeze Louise, she is making a fool of herself I think.

I loved the lawyers comments that were kind :D Thanks Wrinkles.

Scandi

[MrsMush99]

Its ok Mrs Mush. It happens more than we think here. :blowkiss:
Amy
Thank You dear. :blowkiss: I do feel like a fool though. :blushing:

[MrsMush99]

OMG that was a great article!

What is wrong with that woman? I am all for women being respected and treated fairly but this gal must turn off every man she ever meets! Power is what she wants and control her method. Geeze Louise, she is making a fool of herself I think.

I loved the lawyers comments that were kind :D Thanks Wrinkles.

Scandi
Wasn't that a great article?? Seems to me she's not going to let go of her golden goose without a fight.

[Leila]

kazzbar, bear with me, I am going to try to approach this from a little different angle.

In 1996, John Mark Karr, had three boys 3,4, and 6. He was in his first semester at Bevill State Community Colege. John Mark Karr hadn't yet become the type of pedophile that would consider going 1500 miles, each way, to murder a six year old girl. I think on Dec. 26th, or 27th, when John Mark Karr heard about Jon Benet's murder, he was really excited by it. I am certain he followed the Jon Benet case far more than any of us might have. When John Mark Karr truly decided to follow a path was when he moved his family to Petaluma. That was an ouitright statement of where he was headed. Then within six months he had begin to express his fantasies to Wendy Hutchens, and was caught with child porn. The John Mark Karr of today is indeed very capable of murdering a young girl, and by now, he may have actually done it. But I don't think he murdered Jon Benet, it's just too much of a stretch for me to see John Mark Karr, go from a 2, on the pedophile scale, in 1996, to a perfect 10, in December, 1996, as he is now in 2006
Perhaps the trip from Alabama to Petaluma, CA. included a stop in Boulder, Co., where John Karr visited the Ramsey house. Visiting the Ramsey house where JonBenet died, may have been some sort of trigger for John Karr.

Many of us become awestruck when in the presence of a historical place - the memorial of the U.S. Arizona in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii; the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C.; or the battlefield at Gettysburg. We remember the history of those places with reverence.

Perhaps for John Karr, seeing the Ramsey home where the murder happened was the trigger that sent him deeper into his obsession.

[ketel0ne]

Wasn't that a great article?? Seems to me she's not going to let go of her golden goose without a fight.Didn't see this here yet, but the media needs to get their act together. Apparently, Rachel Cohen has *not* agreed to be used for Karr's California Fiona-and-Moonbeam (Harmon & Patience) show. Cohen evidently has also issued a statement detailing such on her website.

http://www.rachelcohenlaw.com/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-26-karr-defense_x.htm

[MrsMush99]

Didn't see this here yet, but the media needs to get their act together. Apparently, Rachel Cohen has *not* agreed to be used for Karr's California Fiona-and-Moonbeam (Harmon & Patience) show. Cohen evidently has also issued a statement detailing such on her website.

http://www.rachelcohenlaw.com/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-26-karr-defense_x.htm
:laugh: Fiona and Moonbeam. I LOVE IT! I'm not reporting anything I hear on the news anymore. They are jumping on anything and everything. They did report the other day that Fiona and Moonbeam would be stepping aside, now I read this today. :banghead:

[JBean]

This is going to tun into a story as good as Karr's. Well maybe not as good, but certainly entertaining.

[Warof2010]

:laugh: Fiona and Moonbeam. I LOVE IT! I'm not reporting anything I hear on the news anymore. They are jumping on anything and everything. They did report the other day that Fiona and Moonbeam would be stepping aside, now I read this today. :banghead:That's an old article frrom Friday that somehow hot snet out again today, so it's old news. No recent word from Jamie Harmon, or Patience Van Zandt. All appears to be quiet on the Western Front.

[BillyGoatGruff]

Hi JBean,
Good article, thanks for posting it. I don’t claim to have a clue who killed JBR even though I have followed the case since she was murdered. Right now, I am just trying to decide if JMK is a total attention seeking pervert or if he is truly a murderer. That article you posted really makes me wonder who is telling the truth, John or his family.

From article you posted:
To prove their point about Karr's innocence, family members have gone so far as to tell family secrets.
Harris said that Patricia Elaine Adcock, the mentally ill mother of John and Michael Karr, laid out a blanket in their living room, set a guitar and Bible on the blanket and asked the boys to lie down. She then told them she would light the blanket and them on fire. Michael Karr grabbed his brother's hand and took him to a neighbor, Harris said.

John Karr was 4 at the time, and he and his older brother Michael went to Hamilton, Ala., to live with their grandparents. His mother was committed to the Georgia State Hospital in Milledgeville, according to several reports. Harris said John Karr has virtually no recollection of his mother.

From the Wendy Hutchens website Profile:
John was born in Atlanta Georgia and moved to Hamilton Alabama when he was five years old. Although details of John’s childhood are still very sketchy and incomplete the following is what he has said of his up bringing, thus far.
John has one older sibling and one younger half sibling who did not live with him as a child but was there off and on. John describes his childhood as both wonderful and perfect, with him being the spoiled baby of the family who could do no wrong. And as terrifying and abusive with physical and sexual abuse that started as an infant and lasted until he was taken away from his mother at the age of nine.

My questions are:
Who is telling the truth… John or his family?
How much do they have to hide?
How long was the mother in a mental institution?
Did she regain custody of John when she got out and if so how long was he with her?



Karr's lying. At least about his mom sexually abusing him. It probably did happen, but she didn't do it. I suspect it was a male pedophile, possibly even a family member or close friend, whose crimes he later projected onto a more suitable villain--his crazy, murderous mother.

[Wrinkles]

Hiya Mabel,

You wrote:
"And, if his intention was to kidnap JonBenet, where was he planning to keep her? He surely couldn't take her home to his family."

Yup.... "xactly!" Nice point Mabel :)

As if it isn't silly enough to think of a kidnapper looking to gain 118K killing his money maker kidnap victim before he even got out of the house, now just what might JMK have thought he was going to do? Hole up somewhere waiting for the big bucks while his family twiddled their thumbs the day after Christmas and New Years Eve or for however long he would have been negotiating?

Silly stuff, isn't it? Surely JMK never thought of how stupid that story would look to people prior to his telling tall tales? My bet is that JMK didn't even know JBR existed before she was murdered.

W

PS. Thanks for clearing up the original date of that Harmon/Cohen article Buzz. I hadn't seen it until today and it was dated the 26th.

[ketel0ne]

That's an old article frrom Friday that somehow hot snet out again today, so it's old news. No recent word from Jamie Harmon, or Patience Van Zandt. All appears to be quiet on the Western Front.
Which article are we referencing here? The one I posted prior was released way early today - and Cohen's statement on her website was released late yesterday afternoon/evening.

[Warof2010]

Which article are we referencing here? The one I posted prior was released way early today - and Cohen's statement on her website was released late yesterday afternoon/evening.The article I saw was released late Friday, and it indicated Harmon and Van Zandt were out. Then the Cohen lady released a statement on Saturday..

[luvbeaches]

:laugh: Fiona and Moonbeam. I LOVE IT! I'm not reporting anything I hear on the news anymore. They are jumping on anything and everything. They did report the other day that Fiona and Moonbeam would be stepping aside, now I read this today. :banghead:

Fiona & Moonbeam...that's good!

"The tug of war is over," Pozner said. "I think the public defenders are firmly in control of the case, and the amateur hour is over. It was sad. It was a low point in the profession."

Van Zandt and Harmon did not return telephone messages and e-mails Friday or Saturday.

I really thought I'd never see the day when I would agree with something Posner had to say...but it arrived, much to my surprise. What a circus...those two chicks were something.

[panthera]

OOOOOHHHH Harmon isn't pregnant that woman Cohen is. Who the heck is she??? I'm getting more and more confused by the minute. Apparently Harmon has no intention of stepping aside. I wish the media would get it right for once. I'm beginning to feel like I'm misreporting. :(

ETA: This is from the link Wrinkles posted.You're not the only one getting confused! I don't think Harmon is going to be involved ~ the public defender is handling the case, Harmon hasn't been cleared or licensed to represent him and there is a court appearance scheduled for tomorrow. I haven't heard, but did she even go to Colorado yet?

[MrsMush99]

You're not the only one getting confused! I don't think Harmon is going to be involved ~ the public defender is handling the case, Harmon hasn't been cleared or licensed to represent him and there is a court appearance scheduled for tomorrow. I haven't heard, but did she even go to Colorado yet?
panthera, some reports say she did go to CO some say she did not. I heard a report where she went to the jail and they wouldn't let her see Karr, and then in the link Wrinkles posted I believe it stated she spoke to him for hours. I'm going to go check it again just to be sure.

[MrsMush99]

Ok, here is what I found:

"She's going to assist us in any way she can, and she's going to help me get admitted (to the Colorado Bar Association)," said Harmon, who traveled to Colorado on Friday.

"I've had a long conversation this morning with Mr. Karr on this very topic."

No wonder why I'm confused.

[Yaya]

Karr's lying. At least about his mom sexually abusing him.
Is this part of your statement something you read some where or just speculation?

[panthera]

Ok, here is what I found:



No wonder why I'm confused.OK thanks! I'd read/heard conflicting reports also and nothing today except some items like a JMK doll being sold online!
:D

[Warof2010]

Experts: Prosecuting Karr May Not Hinge On DNA

BOULDER, Colo. -- The best-case scenario for prosecutors would be slam-dunk DNA evidence linking John Mark Karr to the battered and strangled body of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey.

Without it, experts said, it's still possible -- but much more difficult -- to build a strong murder case against the 41-year-old teacher who has said he was there when the girl died 10 years ago but stopped short of an outright confession.

Karr's first appearance in Boulder County Court is scheduled for Monday, an advisement hearing expected to last only a few minutes. He has not been formally charged in JonBenet's death.

He will be represented by two public defenders, deputy public defender Seth Temin and Steve Jacobson, KCNC-TV and the Boulder Daily Camera reported. Jacobson is a retired public defender and DNA specialist who still has a contractual relationship with the Public Defender's Office, said Carolyn French, spokeswoman for Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy.

One of Lacy's strengths could be Karr himself, who chose not to fight extradition to Colorado.

Authorities in Sonoma County, Calif., who arrested Karr for possession of child pornography in 2001, said he had made "uncertain allusions to placing himself in the killer's role" in talking about JonBenet and 12-year-old Polly Klaas, who was slain in 1993 in Petaluma, Calif.

Richard Allen Davis, 52, was convicted in 1996 of Polly's kidnapping and murder and is under sentence of death.

"From everything I've seen this guy wants to come back to Boulder," said former Denver prosecutor Craig Silverman. "The only question is whether he's coming to Boulder for the first time. I suspect Mary Lacy has some evidence that it's not his first visit."

JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, were initial targets of a grand jury investigation that ended with no indictments. Patsy Ramsey died in June after learning authorities had turned their attention to Karr, who was living in Thailand when he was detained earlier this month.

In a court filing, prosecutors said they have evidence that has not been disclosed despite a decade of public scrutiny of the case.

Investigators have said DNA was found in blood spots on JonBenet's underwear, but a Ramsey family attorney said two years ago it didn't match any of the 1.5 million samples in an FBI database at the time. Other physical evidence includes a ransom note, a boot print found outside the Ramsey house and some indications an intruder could have entered through a basement window.

But mistakes were made early in the investigation. John Ramsey was allowed to roam the house before finding his daughter's body. Friends of the family came to the home, called by the Ramseys after they found the ransom note.

All of this could come back to haunt prosecutors, experts said.

"You need to overcome a lot of things; in order to convict Karr or anyone else, you need to overcome the evidence that seemingly could be interpreted as pointing at the Ramseys and the severely compromised crime scene," said Scott Robinson, a Denver attorney familiar with the case. "If Karr's DNA is linked to the scene, it's all over but the verdict.

"But if in fact there is no DNA match, a defense attorney could argue that the confession means nothing."

Prosecutors can overcome police mistakes with solid work, said Bob Grant, a former district attorney who served as an adviser on the case in the 1990s.

"I've never seen a case in trial where the defense didn't find something to attack the investigation about in terms of technical investigative techniques, and I've never seen an investigation that was perfect," Grant said. "If there's DNA able to be matched to him, then the mistakes are of little or no consequence."

After Karr was detained in Bangkok, Lacy told a news conference that sometimes it becomes necessary to make an arrest before an investigation is complete and that much work remained in the Karr investigation. Since then, prosecutors have asked a judge to keep the arrest warrant affidavit sealed for at least two weeks while they work on a case still in its "very early stages."

"The press conference was not to announce `We got our man,' it was a press conference to manage expectations of the public," said Norm Early, a former Denver district attorney.

He and other experts said Lacy deserves the benefit of the doubt and time to develop her case.

"I presume competence on the part of prosecutors, but that presumption has been put to the test by the Boulder DA's office in this case in the past," Silverman said. "I just can't believe they would have done something without something that made them sit up straight in their chairs and say ‘Oh my God, send a guy to Thailand."'

http://www.nbc11.com/news/9745075/detail.html?rss=bay&psp=news
[/b]

[panthera]

Appreciate the article Buzz! I've been googling for news, but didn't see this one today. I do wonder what evidence the prosecution has so far ~ that could hold up in court. So many mistakes were made early on, especially allowing the Ramseys to have all those people in the house, the police not thoroughly searching the house, and Ramsey himself moving the body!

[Hyatt]

Well, once again we see that justice is not blind. There's a system for the rich and another for the poor. I mean, here they have arrested this guy while "the case is still in its early stages" Read: there is NO case yet.

On the other hand, just try and imagine what would have happened if they had done THIS to the Ramseys - whereas they DID have a case.

This is gettin more and more absurd by the hour.

JMO