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View Full Version : The psychology of the day: Christmas gifts and other considerations



Hyatt
08-27-2006, 12:32 PM
I remember in the OJ trial, I was interested in the prosecution's recreation of the mental state of OJ on that day: child's recital, being excluded for dinner at the restaurant etc.

In this case too, I was most interested in the Ramseys' own book's narrative of the events of the day preceding JBR's death. I believe that the better clues come straight from the horse's mouth, not because of the truthfulness of this and that assertion but because of what may be inadvertently given away.

Since I also believe that JonBenet's death was the result of an uncontrollable anger blow-up within the family (although I recognize that what I am about to write makes it difficult to say WHO could have had a fit of temper) I was particularly interested in WHAT events would stick out in the adult Ramsey's memory from that day so much that they would include them in a book - after all if a picture is a thousand words - then a day offers zillions of possibilities. Okay gonna post the second part of this separately cause this is getting too long.

JMO

Hyatt
08-27-2006, 12:52 PM
So here is what I found to be thought-provoking.

Though I'm sure that those kids received more than one present, there were two that seemed to stand out in the narrative, . (I think a third one of a bicycle (I forget to whom) was also mentioned.)

One of these was the life-sized doll of a replica of JonBenet dressed in one of her costumes which, apparently Patsy had gone to great trouble to order and thought a lot of, whereas JonBenet was apparently not impressed by it. The remark is made that it's funny that gifts that the parents think will be a big deal - turn out to not be for the kids and it is either stated or implied that Patsy was disappointed by JonBenet's reaction.

We know that Burke, on the other hand, received that year's latest Nintendo set, which my then 8 year-old also wanted and got, and which he was so nuts about that I had a hard time separating him from that thing most of his waking hours. We know this because when Burke leaves the house, he takes it with him, which also points to his interest (and might be considered a bit strange to think of it if his sister has just been found dead but whatever ... maybe not).

Not much was said about the Nintendo set in the Ramsey book but those of you familiar with the gadget know that it was a huge hit with kids. The doll, however, received a fair amount of attention. I remember posts commenting on what a strange idea this gift was and I admit that I side with them. I think that the varying interest of these two gifts on the part of JonBenet could well have been the issue of a spat between brother and sister. On the other hand, it is also possible that Patsy, on that particular day, may have seen her daughter as an ungrateful little brat and not feeling much patience towards her. If memory serves, someone recalls JonBenet looking glum and when asked why, answering that she didn't feel pretty. Was this incited by a mother who was resenting her ungratefulness on that day?

I know some of you will think this is all meaningless, but I think the answers to this death lie on the state of mind of the Ramseys on that particular day - just like the OJ case - and fatal blows arising out of anger because someone lost it rely on the psychology of the moment.

JMO

P.S. What was Patsy thinking in making such a big deal about that gift? What was the child supposed to DO with it - as opposed to the brother's gift which was all about new and inventive interaction? I also think that this shows that the mother was much more obssessed with the pageant thing than the daughter may have been. Personally I think that the gift of a life-sized doll is somewhat creepy.

Edited to add: it also shows that the mother was out of touch with the child's interests and not happy with the daughter's behaviour not corresponding to her expectations.

Omega
08-27-2006, 08:01 PM
Do we know if JBR ever showed any interest in the Nintendo? It has often been said on the forum that it's surprising that Burke should be given the Nintendo for Christmas and, without getting a chance to play it, went straight to bed that night. Some people have the theory that JBR went to Burke's room to secretly play with him on the Nintendo with him and Burke eventually killed her.

Was JBR perhaps jealous that she didn't get a decent present, envied Burke for his Nintendo and sneaked off to his room to share in his more interesting present? Or maybe she wasn't interest in Nintendos at all???

Anngelique
08-27-2006, 08:32 PM
I just don't find the reasoning behind this as anything but reaching for straws. I know LOTS of girls that thought it was the best gift in the world to get those life-sized Barbies and then dress like them. They also have American Girls that you can dress like. I made my step-daughters dresses that matched their dolls for Christmas one year. So I don't think it's a strange gift. It sounds like she went through a lot of trouble to do this gift for her and she was hurt that it was not such a big hit afterall. This has definitely happened to me. I remember feeling so horrible for not getting it right and my child not as excited about a gift that I was. You might hear more about that gift because it was foremost in her mind. If she was like me then she probably felt like she let her daughter down by not having that exciting gift for her. I still remember the disappointment I felt over the gift like that I gave my daughter and she didn't like. I will never forget it either. I think it's because I LOVE giving so much and I always want Christmas to be very special for my children. But that one gift was a real clunker and it ruined almost the entire celebration for me even though my other three were very excited.

Now I'm not saying this to back up the Ramsey's. I am totally a fence sitter and watching to see what happens.

southcitymom
08-27-2006, 08:47 PM
I agree wholeheartedly that the Ramsey's state of mind that Christmas is absolutely key.

While many 6-year-old girls would love to receive a lifesize doll to dress and play with, it was stated in the Ramsey's book that JBR wasn't really into it. I would assume she received other gifts from her parents (and I only assume that because we always got Santa gifts AND a few gifts from our parents), but if the doll was the big one and was built up as the big one and then it was a flop, I'm sure Patsy would have been disappointed.

I've seen no evidence that JBR would have had any interest in a Ninetendo either.

Christmas is a day charged with high emotions for most families. I've had Christmas Days spent with young children and I'll admit that by the end of many of those Christmases, I couldn't WAIT to get them in bed and out of my hair. Maybe JBR threw a big 6-year-old hissy fit (those are always fun!) about that doll. Or maybe her Mom said it was just for display and not play and that made her angry.

I'm feel that this was an inside job - and I don't think it was Burke - so I do believe that one of the adults snapped that Christmas.

Hyatt
08-27-2006, 09:54 PM
Do we know if JBR ever showed any interest in the Nintendo? It has often been said on the forum that it's surprising that Burke should be given the Nintendo for Christmas and, without getting a chance to play it, went straight to bed that night. Some people have the theory that JBR went to Burke's room to secretly play with him on the Nintendo with him and Burke eventually killed her.

Was JBR perhaps jealous that she didn't get a decent present, envied Burke for his Nintendo and sneaked off to his room to share in his more interesting present? Or maybe she wasn't interest in Nintendos at all??? As far as I know, nothing has been written about whether or not JBR was interested in the Nintendo. I haven't read anything to that effect and the parents never commented on that in their book, if memory serves. I started thinking about this because I was simply trying to recreate people's mental state and I know for a fact that not only was that the big seller that Christmas but all the kids in my extended family were positively nuts about that machine and the accompanying Mario game that came with it. So, when I read that Patsy was disappointed at the daughter's reaction to the life-size doll in spite of all the trouble she had gone throug, it got me thinking about that game.

The game unfortunately was for just one player and, not only that, it was one of these level jobs where the whole "saving" the game issue was inherently important to the logic of the game. It certainly fascinated not just little boys in my extended family but also little girls AND adults because , for the time, it was graphically well made. Now I can't shake the idea that perhaps a rough scuffle ensued over that game because in our house, everybody was dying to get their hands on it. I doubt that the Ramsey kids were any different. So the brother could have gotten angry because she was wanting to take it from him, or maybe she got to it and erased everything he had accomplished it ... who knows. But it's out of these seemingly insignificant details that kids' anger arises, though Patsy could also have been feeling some re: this whole gift thing.

A word to the poster who spoke of the life-sized Barbie. I also once gave a gift of a huge Dora doll to a child who was roughly the same size of the doll, though she loved it. I think the issue here that posters in 2000 found creepy is not the "life-size" aspect of the doll but rather the true-to-life replica of it. I think that could have been unsettling.

Insofar as Christmas for many kids is mainly about gifts, on Christmas day, it wouldn't be surprising if this was on both on the kids' minds AND the mom. It clearly mattered enough for it to be mentioned in their book. However, like I said earlier, this issue could lead to an outburst of anger from Burke but also of an outburst of anger from Patsy. I just wish I knew more about their respective tempers.

JMO

Hyatt
08-27-2006, 10:10 PM
I just don't find the reasoning behind this as anything but reaching for straws. I know LOTS of girls that thought it was the best gift in the world to get those life-sized Barbies and then dress like them. They also have American Girls that you can dress like. I made my step-daughters dresses that matched their dolls for Christmas one year. So I don't think it's a strange gift. It sounds like she went through a lot of trouble to do this gift for her and she was hurt that it was not such a big hit afterall. This has definitely happened to me. I remember feeling so horrible for not getting it right and my child not as excited about a gift that I was. You might hear more about that gift because it was foremost in her mind. If she was like me then she probably felt like she let her daughter down by not having that exciting gift for her. I still remember the disappointment I felt over the gift like that I gave my daughter and she didn't like. I will never forget it either. I think it's because I LOVE giving so much and I always want Christmas to be very special for my children. But that one gift was a real clunker and it ruined almost the entire celebration for me even though my other three were very excited.

Now I'm not saying this to back up the Ramsey's. I am totally a fence sitter and watching to see what happens.Oh, I absolutely agree with what you are saying and I understand the possible feelings too. But like you say, a gift issue "ruined almost the entire celebration for" you, so I don't think it is immaterial on Christmas day.

However, what if the child's rejection of the gift was not particularly gracious and one HAD put so much effort into it (which I am sure that Patsy did) and then "clunk" as you more or less said. The book states that Patsy was disappointed - it might be John's narration that mentions that. (Wasn't it? I don't feel like digging the book up now, but maybe will later.)

Okay, well so much for the morning. Now, according to their account, John leaves for a good part of the afternoon between the gifts and the party they went to. (I actually found THAT a little bit odd when I read it but ... whatever). So off they go to the party. Was it at the Whites'? Can't remember. Now it is important to know (as most of you do) that JonBenet's toilet issues were a little bit more severe than the norm. She would not just urinate in her sleep and in her pants during the day, she also was known to soil her pants and, according to Patsy's mom "not wipe properly". Why did even the grandma bring this up to the LE people during their conversations?

Could it be that "she was not feeling pretty" because an accident of this nature had happened and she had been told that "it was not pretty" to do that?

Then, upon getting home, I thought that Patsy had to prepare her and her things for some pageant. Everyone is no doubt tired and there has been disappointment earlier, maybe an accident at the party. So, I think that Thomas comes to a good conclusion which fits the mental state of the day: Patsy is probably feeling like she's had it up to here - hubby gone all afternoon, maybe kids fighting over a game, maybe with all the excitement an accident or two from the part of JonBenet who may have acted bratty and ungrateful about her big gift. Now Patsy has to prepare everything for a pageant and for the trip early the next morning. So maybe all there was was failure to cooperate on the part of JonBenet and an additional toileting incident would have been the straw that broke the camel's back and ... snap.

I say that either Thomas is right within the framework of something like the above scenario OR the kids sneak to the game and a fight over it ensues in accidental death.

JMO

dingo
08-27-2006, 10:15 PM
I dont know much about the my Twinn Dolls..but Im gathering that they are specially made to look like the reciever of the gift.
If so could that have been the reason JB was still upset that night...she thought the doll wasnt pretty therfore neither was she.
The dissappointment with this gift could have carried on all through the day and into the night.
JB was also said to be feeling ill Christmas morning and spent time in her bedroom....could this have been a case of the sulks?

angelwngs
08-27-2006, 10:29 PM
So here is what I found to be thought-provoking.

Though I'm sure that those kids received more than one present, there were two that seemed to stand out in the narrative, . (I think a third one of a bicycle (I forget to whom) was also mentioned.)

One of these was the life-sized doll of a replica of JonBenet dressed in one of her costumes which, apparently Patsy had gone to great trouble to order and thought a lot of, whereas JonBenet was apparently not impressed by it. The remark is made that it's funny that gifts that the parents think will be a big deal - turn out to not be for the kids and it is either stated or implied that Patsy was disappointed by JonBenet's reaction.

We know that Burke, on the other hand, received that year's latest Nintendo set, which my then 8 year-old also wanted and got, and which he was so nuts about that I had a hard time separating him from that thing most of his waking hours. We know this because when Burke leaves the house, he takes it with him, which also points to his interest (and might be considered a bit strange to think of it if his sister has just been found dead but whatever ... maybe not).

Not much was said about the Nintendo set in the Ramsey book but those of you familiar with the gadget know that it was a huge hit with kids. The doll, however, received a fair amount of attention. I remember posts commenting on what a strange idea this gift was and I admit that I side with them. I think that the varying interest of these two gifts on the part of JonBenet could well have been the issue of a spat between brother and sister. On the other hand, it is also possible that Patsy, on that particular day, may have seen her daughter as an ungrateful little brat and not feeling much patience towards her. If memory serves, someone recalls JonBenet looking glum and when asked why, answering that she didn't feel pretty. Was this incited by a mother who was resenting her ungratefulness on that day?

I know some of you will think this is all meaningless, but I think the answers to this death lie on the state of mind of the Ramseys on that particular day - just like the OJ case - and fatal blows arising out of anger because someone lost it rely on the psychology of the moment.

JMO

P.S. What was Patsy thinking in making such a big deal about that gift? What was the child supposed to DO with it - as opposed to the brother's gift which was all about new and inventive interaction? I also think that this shows that the mother was much more obssessed with the pageant thing than the daughter may have been. Personally I think that the gift of a life-sized doll is somewhat creepy.

Edited to add: it also shows that the mother was out of touch with the child's interests and not happy with the daughter's behaviour not corresponding to her expectations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Very Interest Post! Several of my adult cousins have had these large dolls made to look like their children. I can't remember the name of the dolls, but they came from New York and were terribly expensive. I always thought they were stupid, but then I was never into dolls that were meant to look at and virtually never play with.

In my opinion, JBR's reaction to the doll facimili of her was similar to the tiff the night of the party when she verbalized that she did not want to wear a sweater similar to her mother's. (PR wanted her to wear a red sweater and black velvet pants so that they would be dressed alike.) My mother always had dresses made for me which matched hers when I was young. (Actually, until I was in about the 5th gade...:eek: ( I always knew there was some reason why I am such 'damaged merchandise'!!) My extended family all dresses alike at Christmas. Each female of each individual family wears the exact same outfit as her closest female relatives. (and to make it even sicker the males wear coordinating colored shirts!) Extremely Corny!!!!!!!!!! I know! I thought it was fun for a few years and I went along, but I quit doing it many years ago and got poo-pooed on by my family for it. I also am guilty of buying matching shirts for my two sons who are three years apart in age... This came to an abrupt halt when they grew up enough to exert their own independance. (I highly respected them for it.)

The issue with JBR that most concerns me about this is her saying she was not pretty. Wasn't it said that some lady saw her crying on the steps and asked her what was wrong....and that was the reason she gave???

Was this a comment from a child who was damaged by being made-up and paraded around as if she were an object rather than a person with feelings at such a very young age that it had totally warped her internal value system by the age of SIX??? Were her reactions to the doll because it was suppose to look like her and she felt unpretty but no one bothered to notice these !!!!!! signs!!!!! of a kid needing much different forms of parenting than she was receiving????

Or were they the remarks of a child who had been molested? From personal childhood experience, I can tell you nothing in my life made me feel less attractive or less worthy....

As for the bedwetting and soiling...why were common sense solutions such as setting an alarm to go during the night to get them accustom to awakening tried? What about spending some cash on the little sensor belts which alarm at the first sign of wetness? These are prescribed by doctors for heavens sake... Were there alternative methods reported that showed PR ever interveined as a Mother and tried to help her cope or fix JBR's issues with wetting and soiling? All I have read were the reports that JBR was scolded for soiling and wetting and those reports from the housekeeper which said JBR seemed to feel that the bathroom as the place of punishment and that she often heard her crying from the bathroom.

In my opinion this child viewed herself in a very negative light and would have benefited greatly from a day of making mudpies in the backyard with her mother and then over and over agin with some friends her own age... (but then I was just an elementary school teacher... What do I know?...)

openminded1
08-27-2006, 10:33 PM
My Twinn website: http://www.mytwinn.com/

As for the Nintendo being a one player game, etc. I was in college in 1996 and there were definately 2 player games out back then. I think there was even Playstation then- the 1st version.

dingo
08-27-2006, 10:39 PM
Thanks for the link Openminded...I dont know why but the movie Chuckie keeps entering my head:eek:

Hyatt
08-27-2006, 10:47 PM
I dont know much about the my Twinn Dolls..but Im gathering that they are specially made to look like the reciever of the gift.
If so could that have been the reason JB was still upset that night...she thought the doll wasnt pretty therfore neither was she.
The dissappointment with this gift could have carried on all through the day and into the night.
JB was also said to be feeling ill Christmas morning and spent time in her bedroom....could this have been a case of the sulks?Your theory about why she wasn't feeling pretty also makes sense to me. Regarding your last point, the kids opened up their gifts on that very day, Christmas morning.

One thing that strikes me about the Ramseys' book was that I don't remember Burke being mentioned very much. Can someone who read the book confirm that?

JMO

Hyatt
08-27-2006, 10:56 PM
My Twinn website: http://www.mytwinn.com/

As for the Nintendo being a one player game, etc. I was in college in 1996 and there were definately 2 player games out back then. I think there was even Playstation then- the 1st version.
But Burke got the Nintendo not the Playstation. Also I know that there were a few multiplayer games too - not many but the one that came with the set was a one-player, which I realize, need not, in of itself, be meaningful. But I do think that toys were important on that day.

JMO

wenchie
08-27-2006, 10:57 PM
Of course she didn't feel "pretty" when she had to be ordinary Jonbenet.

She started wearing heavy makeup at 4, had her hair styled in elaborate coifs for the pageants....wore feathers and satin high heels.

Then she went home and was supposed to be a little kid again.

Most women who regularly wear makeup don't feel "pretty" when they don't have it on.

It's a learned thing.

angelwngs
08-27-2006, 11:06 PM
Of course she didn't feel "pretty" when she had to be ordinary Jonbenet.

She started wearing heavy makeup at 4, had her hair styled in elaborate coifs for the pageants....wore feathers and satin high heels.

Then she went home and was supposed to be a little kid again.

Most women who regularly wear makeup don't feel "pretty" when they don't have it on.

It's a learned thing.
Since the title of this thread is "The Psychology of the day" I personally think that Freud would peer a little deeper than just the single issue of JBR's constant pagent life from age 4 to 6 in analyzing why she said that she didn't feel pretty....especially if she had been murdered and he was trying to confirm suspecions that she had cronic evidence of vaginal issues inappropoiate for that of a six year old...

...but then I tend to be very analytical. ('anal' being the operative abbreviated characteristic)

wenchie
08-27-2006, 11:09 PM
Since the title of this thread is "The Psychology of the day" I personally think that Freud would peer a little deeper than just the single issue of JBR's constant pagent life from age 4 to 6 in analyzing why she said that she didn't feel pretty....especially if she had been murdered and he was trying to confirm suspecions that she had cronic evidence of vaginal issues inappropoiate for that of a six year old...

...but then I tend to be very analytical. ('anal' being the operative abbreviated characteristic)


True; but it could be something as simple as Jonbenet thinking that if she wasn't all done up and having people oooh and aaah over her, she wasn't "pretty".

Personally, I don't feel that she was being molested, although I do feel that there were huge "issues" going on in that house.

dingo
08-27-2006, 11:16 PM
But Burke got the Nintendo not the Playstation. Also I know that there were a few multiplayer games too - not many but the one that came with the set was a one-player, which I realize, need not, in of itself, be meaningful. But I do think that toys were important on that day.

JMOBurke got the fun toy that year and JBR got the silly doll...could have caused conflict..who knows.
JBR also got a new pushbike...but Daddy was to busy with other things to help her learn how to ride it
That Christmas day started bad for JBR and got a hell of a lot worse.

angelwngs
08-27-2006, 11:17 PM
True; but it could be something as simple as Jonbenet thinking that if she wasn't all done up and having people oooh and aaah over her, she wasn't "pretty".

Personally, I don't feel that she was being molested, although I do feel that there were huge "issues" going on in that house.
Really? Please expound. What do you think of the experts reports about the condition of her vagina? Do you think as I am beginning to... that if you fill a room with 10 exerts you will most likely get 10 differing opinions and that most of what we call 'evidence' is questionable at best? That is sure the direction I am headed.......... It is sad to me that we now are resorted to feel that if there is no DNA evidence to convict, then any judgement is highly questionable given the existance of so many differing 'opinions' from experts..........

wenchie
08-28-2006, 12:10 AM
Really? Please expound. What do you think of the experts reports about the condition of her vagina? Do you think as I am beginning to... that if you fill a room with 10 exerts you will most likely get 10 differing opinions and that most of what we call 'evidence' is questionable at best? That is sure the direction I am headed.......... It is sad to me that we now are resorted to feel that if there is no DNA evidence to convict, then any judgement is highly questionable given the existance of so many differing 'opinions' from experts..........

Going back for quite a few years (since I first started following the news and reading the books about this crime) I have not believed that John Ramsey was molesting his daughter.

I don't think the man was even home very often - and I doubt if he ever spent much time alone with his daughter.

He seems to me like a typical workaholic who only comes home when he has to.

His mother-in-law seemed to be around a lot, as well as the many housekeepers and nannies, and I feel confident in saying that he didn't have much interest in hearing about pageants and costumes and dance routines. I've never heard any report of him even attending one of the pageants.


I do think that both John and Patsy have antisocial tendencies, and I wouldn't be surprised if their many break-ins and robberies were insurance scams.

BirdieBoo
08-28-2006, 12:53 AM
Those My Twinn dolls were all the rage back then, I remember my mom wanted to give ME one and I was in my 20's. She thought better of it and gave me a gift certificate to a grocery store instead, which was VERY appreciated by me:) They seem like one of those gifts that is targeted to please the giver more than the receiver.

kazzbar
08-28-2006, 03:19 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Very Interest Post! Several of my adult cousins have had these large dolls made to look like their children. I can't remember the name of the dolls, but they came from New York and were terribly expensive. I always thought they were stupid, but then I was never into dolls that were meant to look at and virtually never play with.

In my opinion, JBR's reaction to the doll facimili of her was similar to the tiff the night of the party when she verbalized that she did not want to wear a sweater similar to her mother's. (PR wanted her to wear a red sweater and black velvet pants so that they would be dressed alike.) My mother always had dresses made for me which matched hers when I was young. (Actually, until I was in about the 5th gade...:eek: ( I always knew there was some reason why I am such 'damaged merchandise'!!) My extended family all dresses alike at Christmas. Each female of each individual family wears the exact same outfit as her closest female relatives. (and to make it even sicker the males wear coordinating colored shirts!) Extremely Corny!!!!!!!!!! I know! I thought it was fun for a few years and I went along, but I quit doing it many years ago and got poo-pooed on by my family for it. I also am guilty of buying matching shirts for my two sons who are three years apart in age... This came to an abrupt halt when they grew up enough to exert their own independance. (I highly respected them for it.)

The issue with JBR that most concerns me about this is her saying she was not pretty. Wasn't it said that some lady saw her crying on the steps and asked her what was wrong....and that was the reason she gave???

Was this a comment from a child who was damaged by being made-up and paraded around as if she were an object rather than a person with feelings at such a very young age that it had totally warped her internal value system by the age of SIX??? Were her reactions to the doll because it was suppose to look like her and she felt unpretty but no one bothered to notice these !!!!!! signs!!!!! of a kid needing much different forms of parenting than she was receiving????

Or were they the remarks of a child who had been molested? From personal childhood experience, I can tell you nothing in my life made me feel less attractive or less worthy....

As for the bedwetting and soiling...why were common sense solutions such as setting an alarm to go during the night to get them accustom to awakening tried? What about spending some cash on the little sensor belts which alarm at the first sign of wetness? These are prescribed by doctors for heavens sake... Were there alternative methods reported that showed PR ever interveined as a Mother and tried to help her cope or fix JBR's issues with wetting and soiling? All I have read were the reports that JBR was scolded for soiling and wetting and those reports from the housekeeper which said JBR seemed to feel that the bathroom as the place of punishment and that she often heard her crying from the bathroom.

In my opinion this child viewed herself in a very negative light and would have benefited greatly from a day of making mudpies in the backyard with her mother and then over and over agin with some friends her own age... (but then I was just an elementary school teacher... What do I know?...)Excellent Post Angelwngs. I agree a day of mud pies would have done JBR the world of good.could it be that the poor kid suffered from a lack of confidence and low self esteem? Could be the case. It sounds like the bed wetting thing was very badly managed by Patsy but how do we really know. I think the whole pageant thing was more of a kick for Patsy.Everything was for Patsy. Of course, Mums push their kids into things that interest them initially but if the kids do not want to do it then as they grow they will rebel. Haveing said this there is'no' way my daughter would wear clothes like me or be happy with a doll for Christmas.In fact , I bought her one once when she was 2 and she would not have it.She gave it to our huge poodle!
How sad that the housekeeper said that the little girl cried in the Bathroom.Surely the Ramsay's could have got professional help for JBR and her bedwetting. My heart really goes out to Poor JBR.

jeena
08-28-2006, 09:54 AM
Is there any evidence an intruder was in JBR's bedroom? How do we even know JBR was abducted from her bedroom, besides John and Patsy's statements to that effect. It was reported that JBR did not feel well Christmas Day, so maybe she was in bed before the Ramsey's went to Fleet White's house for 5:00 p.m. Chistmas dinner, which could account for the wet bed sheets that were found later. Maybe she never returned to her bedroom that evening.

After the Ramsey's left Fleet White's house, they delivered presents and returned home at 10.00 p.m. One of the gift recipients stated the JBR was sleeping in the car and never go out. I was wondering if someone at one of those stops the Ramsey's made, either by accident or intentionally, caused JBR's head injury. When the Ramsey's arrived home, her condition could have worsened and the Ramsey's thought she was dead, and then took her to the basement and staged the garote and wrote the ransom note to protect someone.

The scream the next door neighbor heard could have come from Patsy as they were staging, not JBR.

It's been reported that Patsy doesn't know where JBR ate the pineapple, it could have been at Fleet White's, and not at the Ramsey house after they got home.

I can't understand why an intruder would hit that child over the head which such force to make her scream and possibly wake people in the house and/or neighbors, it doesn't make sense. The only way an intruder makes sense is if he was carrying or molesting her, and she fell on her head
accidentally on a hard surface, like the basement floor.

SpongeBathHotPants
08-28-2006, 10:32 AM
Here is my interjection…. Patsy seemed like a “everything is perfect” kind of mom and so the smallest thing could have set her off. I know personally that with the stress of Christmas and everything that has to get done and then it all end with a big anticlimactic 30 minutes of unwrapping, add in a whine from a kid and poof, the calmest person can snap.



Example, I am a real laid back kind of mom and usually don’t get mad very easily but one year with all the stress and crap that goes on at Christmas my kids opened their gifts and the older one actually whined at me that they only got 7 presents each. Well, I had to go outside and drink a glass of wine or I would have wrung their little necks.



With all the other stuff that Patsy was going through I can imagine JB comment about not liking the doll or why did Burke get such a cool gift and I didn’t, add in her messing up her pants at a party and maybe some tension between PR and JR and poof, mommy snaps!!!

Just my :twocents:

jeena
08-28-2006, 11:25 AM
My niece used to wet her bed and she just turned 11 years old last week and still wears pull-ups to bed, just in case. My brother and his wife were never upset with the child because of her problem, and they have the same stressors as most middle class families. I know because I live in the same house as them. Just once, my brother made the comment that all the sheets had to be washed over again because they were wet, and seemed a little annoyed. The Ramsey's didn't have the additional problem of washing the sheets, they had a housekeeper.

I know Patsy had the added stress of living with cancer, but I can't imagine her harming her child over bed-wetting or stressing over Christmas gifts.

I have been around kids almost every Christmas, and every year one of them voices their disappointment about gifts, I think it's a nomal part of Christmas and most of the gift givers accept it without hurt feelings. Last year I gave my niece fewer presents than her brother, even though hers were the same dollar value as his, and she made the comment that I didn't give her many gifts. like the year before.

Just a note: I read one very interesting post on another message board where the poster claimed she went to see the Ramsey home in Boulder about a year after the murder, and she was shocked to see many transients in the neighborhood. She said there was a Catholic Mission somewhere near the home and the Ramsey children rode their bikes near it.
She feels JBR could have come in contact with the transients in the neighborhood who gained her trust, and one of them could have been the intruder.

Old Broad
08-28-2006, 11:28 AM
I'm wondering if JonBenet had ever told Santa before Christmas what she'd wanted for that year? Didn't they have Santa at the party on the 23rd?
I'm thinking that if there was any certain thing JonBenet was wanting for Christmas, well she would have gotten it!! The bike also was a big gift and I'm sure there were many others. Christmas also wasn't over for her either, she was still going to be seeing other members of the family and getting more presents. I'm thinking she was already starting to look forward to the next step rather than brooding about not really liking the doll. After the busy day she had it just doesn't seem to me that she would have had the energy to want to be up and having any kind of hissy fit after getting back from the Whites, she was 6 years old and would have been very tired and ready to be put in bed.

OB

tamfish
08-28-2006, 12:17 PM
Hyatt, I think you could be onto something with the Nintendo vs. Doll idea. We always have the entire family at our house for Christmas Day (its a tradition!) so that means 8 kids who, in 1996, ranged in age from infants to 8 years old. The years my boys got video game systems (and there have been many - they always want the latest, greatest one) those kids would fight to be the ones playing. And it didn't matter how little they were! Even the toddlers will scream and stomp their feet for a turn on the controller.

So -- you may be onto something, yes. I have no problem believing that JonBenet would have wanted to play the Nintendo -- and might have made a bigger deal over it than her own doll.

As far as the "I'm not pretty" comment she made, I imagine a situation such as this: Patsy wants JB to wear a similar outfit so that they are dressed alike. JB fusses about it, and Patsy, trying to cajole her into the idea says something like, "But don't you want to be pretty like Mommy?"

Just my .2 cents.

jeena
08-28-2006, 12:43 PM
It's possible that after the Ramsey's returned home from the White's, Burke wanted to play Nintendo and JonBenet could have played with him, or Burke wanted to play alone. Either way, maybe a fight broke out and Burke hit JBR in the head with the Nintendo control, and then the Ramsey's staged the garote and ramsom note. The Nintendo control is made of very hard material (plastic?), and it would be easy for a child to wrap his small hand around one side of the control and hit someone in the head with the other side of it.

I know my 5 year old nephew would want to play Nintendo until 1:00 a.m. in the morning and have arguments with his parents about it. The Ramsey's say they arrived home at 10:00 p.m. Chirstmas night, which would have been early enough for Burke to want to play new video games that he was excited to receive for Christmas.

My only reservation about this scenario is: Would the Ramsey's incur millions of dollars in legal expenses, forcing them to eventually have to sell their remodeled home in Atlanta, to protect their son for being blamed for an accidental death? Even if it was determined Burke committed murder, he still would not have been jailed in Colorado because of his age, and he probably wouldn't have been charged with murder because of John Ramsey's connections.

wenchie
08-28-2006, 01:06 PM
You couldn't do that kind of damage to a skull with a remote control from a Nintendo.

The Nintendo set was intact and not broken, also.

Brains & NoBull
08-28-2006, 01:30 PM
Regarding the "psychology of the day", these are just a few things that popped into my head while reading this thread:


Now, according to their account, John leaves for a good part of the afternoon between the gifts and the party they went to. I know that John has previously admitted to having an affair (of which, I believe, Patsy was aware). Was he having this affair in December of 1996 and perhaps went to his mistress' house to spend a portion of Christmas with her? That would account for his leaving in between the present opening and the party. Perhaps, knowing that he would be on vacation for a number of weeks, he also spent time with his mistress after the party. If he left Patsy with sole care of Burke and JonBenet that night, it is possible that tensions were running even higher than the disappointment over the doll and one more accident on the part of JonBenet pushed Patsy over the edge.

Had John been with his mistress when JonBenet was killed, and then came home to find himself in a situation in which he had to "stage" his daughter's murder, it would be one more thing for a family so focused on appearances to remain tight lipped about. Also, I find it odd that JonBenet's headstone states that her death was on Christmas day when the official documents state that her death was on the 26th. I don't think that is by accident. I think that the Ramsey's (at least one of them) knew exactly when she died and the headstone reflects that.


All I have read were the reports that JBR was scolded for soiling and wetting and those reports from the housekeeper which said JBR seemed to feel that the bathroom as the place of punishment and that she often heard her crying from the bathroom. JonBenet's crying in the bathroom could be a "chicken or the egg" situation. Was she crying because she would wet herself and then be punished while in the bathroom as is stated or were her accidents because the bathroom was where the abuse happened and she was fearful to go in there? Perhaps she was abused while having a bath? In my opinion, it seems like something so traumatic happened in the bathroom that she no longer wanted to enter it in order to relieve herself or clean properly. Most children do not cry in the bathroom unless they are traumatized by something.

jeena
08-28-2006, 01:53 PM
There are several posts on a video game web-site (see below) referring to the console boxes being hard enough to crack a skull, not the controller, but I don't know how hard the Nintendo console from ten years ago was when JBR was killed:


" Bust a PS2 over some hobo's head. Then, find a second hobo and bust an XBox over his head. Drag the bodies side-by-side and see which, if either, is bleeding out the ears. THAT is the superior console. "


"My money's on the xbox, that thing can crack a skull. "


It's scary that anyone would even think of committing a violent act with an X-box console! Would the modern console boxes be damaged if they were used to crack someone's skull open?

Unfortunately I looked at the autopsy picture of JBR's cracked skull, it makes me sick to think someone inflicted so much damage on that poor child, accident or not.

jeena
08-28-2006, 01:58 PM
I know that John has previously admitted to having an affair (of which, I believe, Patsy was aware). Was he having this affair in December of 1996 and perhaps went to his mistress' house to spend a portion of Christmas with her?

I read John Ramsey admitted to having an affair during his first marriage, not during his second one to Patsy.

lannie
08-28-2006, 02:20 PM
Burke got the fun toy that year and JBR got the silly doll...could have caused conflict..who knows.
JBR also got a new pushbike...but Daddy was to busy with other things to help her learn how to ride it
That Christmas day started bad for JBR and got a hell of a lot worse.

She could not ride her bike, since she was being groomed for another pageant in a few weeks ,Pats could not take the chance of her skinning her knees,if you had been watching OPRAH she had Pageant moms on there telling the world that was one of the things their daughters could not do ,or roller skate ,also don't forget Gramps had just been fired, from access (john's co.)that must of changed the family dynamic in a big way ,also john had expressed to friends that he wanted to divorce Pats, so a lot was going on in that family at that time,

Brefie
08-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Also, I find it odd that JonBenet's headstone states that her death was on Christmas day when the official documents state that her death was on the 26th. I don't think that is by accident. I think that the Ramsey's (at least one of them) knew exactly when she died and the headstone reflects that.


I think the date on the headstone is to generate sympathy. I know that if I sat a headstone that claimed a child of 6 had died on Christmas day, I would immediately want to cry for the parents.

PR tactic, IMO.