They need to arrest John Ramsey soon...

[cappuccina]

...while this new investigation is still "hot"; it's cooling off reaallly quickly...

They need to do an "Al Capone" type of arrest and at least arrest him for obstruction, or having a headlight out on his car, anything - jaywalking would be good - I don't give a **** what it is...or initiate some kind of civil wrongful death suit, or find some way to charge this mofo for part of the expenditure that was wasted on Karr, and charge Karr for the rest.

This is friggin' ridiculous, and all of the time smug Mr. Ramsey is complaining about all of the media attention...welll, let's just prosecute him in a courtroom without cameras, and then the media circus will be over...

[narlacat]

Capp, I am as frustrated as you.

They got away with it, it's that simple.

[LinasK]

Agreed, after all he said he wants to leave the country. It's because he knew all along JMK was never a serious suspect, because John is the incestuous sexual abuser and killer of his daughter IMO!:furious:

[michelle]

Look you guys, its no secret that I think the Ramseys are innocent or atleast innocent in JBR's actual murder. I do not however think that they for one minute would not cover for BR. It has been years since I really read all the info regarding her death and murder but I am just wondering what is it exactly have you all convinced of their guilt. I am just really wondering. I dont want to start a heated topic here. I am just really curious. Maybe I am missing something and have not heard what everyone else has.

[deanws]

...while this new investigation is still "hot"; it's cooling off reaallly quickly...

They need to do an "Al Capone" type of arrest and at least arrest him for obstruction, or having a headlight out on his car, anything - jaywalking would be good - I don't give a **** what it is...or initiate some kind of civil wrongful death suit, or find some way to charge this mofo for part of the expenditure that was wasted on Karr, and charge Karr for the rest.

This is friggin' ridiculous, and all of the time smug Mr. Ramsey is complaining about all of the media attention...welll, let's just prosecute him in a courtroom without cameras, and then the media circus will be over...LOL Cap! I thought I was the only one around that used the word "mofo"! :blushing:

[Tristan]

Cappuccina and LinasK .....I echo your sentiments.

John Ramsey is a smug, lying, manipulative killer.

[Show Me]

Cappuccina and LinasK .....I echo your sentiments.

John Ramsey is a smug, lying, manipulative killer.

Me too!

[dottierainbow]

I think they were there.
Amy
Look you guys, its no secret that I think the Ramseys are innocent or atleast innocent in JBR's actual murder. I do not however think that they for one minute would not cover for BR. It has been years since I really read all the info regarding her death and murder but I am just wondering what is it exactly have you all convinced of their guilt. I am just really wondering. I dont want to start a heated topic here. I am just really curious. Maybe I am missing something and have not heard what everyone else has.

[Warof2010]

Look you guys, its no secret that I think the Ramseys are innocent or atleast innocent in JBR's actual murder. I do not however think that they for one minute would not cover for BR. It has been years since I really read all the info regarding her death and murder but I am just wondering what is it exactly have you all convinced of their guilt. I am just really wondering. I dont want to start a heated topic here. I am just really curious. Maybe I am missing something and have not heard what everyone else has.It appears the JonBenet Ramsey forum will very rapidly revert back to exactly the same thing it has been for quite a few years now; a place for the RDI's to hang and comiserate about the Ramseys never having been tried, and convicted. The reason the Ramseys haven't been tried, is for one very simple reason. There isn't any real evidence against them. It's that simple. Hopefully this recent episode drew the real killer back to the surface again, and hopefully he'll stay surfaced for awhile, and maybe some astute LE internet person can make contact with him. That's the best we can hope for.

[luvbeaches]

Capp, I am as frustrated as you.

They got away with it, it's that simple.

I'm afraid you're right... :(

[Chrishope]

It appears the JonBenet Ramsey forum will very rapidly revert back to exactly the same thing it has been for quite a few years now; a place for the RDI's to hang and comiserate about the Ramseys never having been tried, and convicted. The reason the Ramseys haven't been tried, is for one very simple reason. There isn't any real evidence against them. It's that simple. Hopefully this recent episode drew the real killer back to the surface again, and hopefully he'll stay surfaced for awhile, and maybe some astute LE internet person can make contact with him. That's the best we can hope for.


It has brought the killer back to the surface. In fact the killer made a public statement not to jump to conclusions about Karr. He also implied that he might move out of the country because of unwanted media attention.

You're right that there isn't enough evidence to take him to trial.

[SuperDave]

"The reason the Ramseys haven't been tried, is for one very simple reason. There isn't any real evidence against them. It's that simple."

Oh, please! Would you like a list?

[deanws]

It has brought the killer back to the surface. In fact the killer made a public statement not to jump to conclusions about Karr. He also implied that he might move out of the country because of unwanted media attention.

You're right that there isn't enough evidence to take him to trial.Oh, he will get his in the end....everybody does.

[michelle]

"The reason the Ramseys haven't been tried, is for one very simple reason. There isn't any real evidence against them. It's that simple."

Oh, please! Would you like a list?Well that is what I am getting at, I really dont understand if the evidence is there against the Ramseys, what happened? I truly dont understand. What is the evidence? Is is that they acted "Weird" or there were fibers that were on JBR that matched PR sweater? I dont know.:confused:

[Warof2010]

It has brought the killer back to the surface. In fact the killer made a public statement not to jump to conclusions about Karr. He also implied that he might move out of the country because of unwanted media attention.

You're right that there isn't enough evidence to take him to trial.If I was John Ramsey, and the media swarmed me, more than once, let alone my son on his first arrival at his dorm, I would also want to leave the U.S.. I have seen the media in action, and it isn't a pleasant sight, especially if you happen to be in the middle of them, and don't want to be there, and they have hounded you for ten years..

[Warof2010]

"The reason the Ramseys haven't been tried, is for one very simple reason. There isn't any real evidence against them. It's that simple."

Oh, please! Would you like a list?Argue that with the judge, and the Grand Jury. Your peer group.

[michelle]

Well, let's see.
Maybe it has something to do with their lying and their refusal to co operate with LE.
Maybe it has something to do with PR not being able to be eliminated as the writer of the note.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact they were trying to get out of town within the hour of their daughters body being found.
Maybe it has something to do with fibre evidence.
You want more reasons, I got more :)Thank you Narla, I knew I could count on you.:D Now lets back up to the first reason you stated, and understand that I am not being a smart a$$ I am honestly trying to see it your way. I have always heard that the Ramseys did cooperate and that they talked with LE whenever they wanted too.
Second I also thought that I read PR was eliminated as the writer.
Third- Well I am confused a bit on that.
Fourth is this the Fibers from PR's sweater? And if so is it so uncommon that they would be on JBR? I mean she is her mom?
Thanks.

[michelle]

Argue that with the judge, and the Grand Jury. Your peer group.That is exactly why I dont understand. How can they have no evidence against the Ramseys but so many are "sure" of their guilt?

[Warof2010]

Well, let's see.
Maybe it has something to do with their lying and their refusal to co operate with LE.
Maybe it has something to do with PR not being able to be eliminated as the writer of the note.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact they were trying to get out of town within the hour of their daughters body being found.
Maybe it has something to do with fibre evidence.
You want more reasons, I got more :)Maybe's aren't evidence narlacat. The Grand jury, and a separate judge couldn't find reason to indict the Ramseys.

[JBean]

Maybe's aren't evidence narlacat. The Grand jury, and a separate judge couldn't find reason to indict the Ramseys.Hi Buzz. it's because they didn't do it.

[RJML]

That is exactly why I dont understand. How can they have no evidence against the Ramseys but so many are "sure" of their guilt?
Because contrary to what some here imply, the evidence isn't sooooooooo great to point to their guilt.

Do people lhonestly think that if the evidence was there for an almsot certain ramsey hanging that the DA wouldn't have busted one of them by now? COME ON. They arrested a guy based on some emails. If they had this supposed "smoking gun" evidence for ramsey guilt they'd have acted on it.

The longer the case goes on the WORSE they look.

Look, I am not saying the ramseys are 100% but it is common sense to see they arent easily guilty since they'd have been charged by now.

[LinasK]

That is exactly why I dont understand. How can they have no evidence against the Ramseys but so many are "sure" of their guilt?There is evidence that was not presented to Judge Carnes or the Grand Jury that implicates the Ramsey's.

The Ramsey's refused to take a polygraph or talk to LE for 4 months! And then, it was their own selected polygrapher, not one from the police! They tried to board John's private plane for Michigan, despite JB's body just being found- I think that should trump Christmas celebrations, don't you? Kinda like Scott Peterson and his parents still having Christmas dinner with the neighbor instead of looking for the "missing" wife they knew was already dead and by whom.

Patsy was NOT eliminated as the writer of the note, we now know JMK didn't write it!

John's black shirt fibers were found on JB's genitals, that can't be explained except for sexual abuse.

[SleuthingSleuth]

.It appears the JonBenet Ramsey forum will very rapidly revert back to exactly the same thing it has been for quite a few years now; a place for the RDI's to hang and comiserate about the Ramseys never having been tried, and convicted. The reason the Ramseys haven't been tried, is for one very simple reason. There isn't any real evidence against them. It's that simple. Hopefully this recent episode drew the real killer back to the surface again, and hopefully he'll stay surfaced for awhile, and maybe some astute LE internet person can make contact with him. That's the best we can hope for.
There is plenty of evidence to raise eyebrows, questions, and suspicions...but not enough evidence to try a Ramsey and convict.

With this latest debacle...either there was no intruder, or the intruder was absolutely perfect. Though it makes no sense this absolutely perfect intruder chose to leave behind his own handwriting to be examined.

If there was an intruder/killer...he committed the crime flawlessly and has kept his head down for 10 years.
Only way things could point to an intruder is if Karr for instance actually spoke with the real killer. That's unlikely.

In this case things always seem to lead back to the Ramseys...because of what evidence there is...it points towards the Ramseys or raises troubling questions.

[Chrishope]

If I was John Ramsey, and the media swarmed me, more than once, let alone my son on his first arrival at his dorm, I would also want to leave the U.S.. I have seen the media in action, and it isn't a pleasant sight, especially if you happen to be in the middle of them, and don't want to be there, and they have hounded you for ten years..


... and you killed your daughter.

[close_enough]

Capp, I am as frustrated as you.

They got away with it, it's that simple.

they sure did...there will never be any justice for JonBenet

[Warof2010]

Hi Buzz. it's because they didn't do it.JBean, you, and I, and michelle know that, but we don't want to force our opinion, based on existing evidence, on anyone else, do we. If they want to believe, what they believe, for whatever reason they believe, what they believe, who are we to argue with them.

[RJML]

Well, let's see.
Maybe it has something to do with their lying and their refusal to co operate with LE.
Maybe it has something to do with PR not being able to be eliminated as the writer of the note.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact they were trying to get out of town within the hour of their daughters body being found.
Maybe it has something to do with fibre evidence.
You want more reasons, I got more :)Oh come on...first, the fibre evidence thing is silly. THEY LIVE IN THE HOUSE. Fibres will travel.

Second, the hand writing thing doesn't mean much. I bet many people would not be eliminated from it. Because she wasnt totally eliminated is IMO lame evidence to try and support this theory.

Do you really think if they were guilty they'd try and get out of town ASAP when it was OBVIOUS they'd be suspects? Wouldnt you think that would help point to them?


I can see them being stubborn with trying to work with LE since it seems they were being tried and convited by LE and the media 3.2 seconds after the case opened. That'd tick me off too if I was innocent yet people continued to claim i was guilty.

I am not saying they are innocent (I HAVE NO CLUE) but the evidence you listed is IMO silly and points to nothing.

[michelle]

John's black shirt fibers were found on JB's genitals, that can't be explained except for sexual abuse.So the fibers that were on her were definatly JR's? I always thought that was a rumor???? See I am confused, lol...

[JBean]

JBean, you, and I, and michelle know that, but we don't want to force our opinion, based on existing evidence, on anyone else, do we. If they want to believe, what they believe, for whatever reason they believe, what they believe, who are we to argue with them.I won't argue it Buzz. There is no point. I believe it based on all the homework I have done. We all have access to the same information and are drawing different conclusions. so it goes.


ps: I got my phone call from the sea today

[close_enough]

michelle...anything & everything you ever wanted to know about JBR's death is here....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20136

[lilpony]

So the fibers that were on her were definatly JR's? I always thought that was a rumor???? See I am confused, lol...
Michelle, call me confused also. I don't know what is true, or what is false. I do know one thing though. I just can't bring myself to believe, that the Ramseys, murdered their daughter. I can't go there. I would have to have solid proof. No way they did it. If it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt, I will sad and shocked, to say the least.

[michelle]

michelle...anything & everything you ever wanted to know about JBR's death is here....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20136Thanks..

[michelle]

Michelle, call me confused also. I don't know what is true, or what is false. I do know one thing though. I just can't bring myself to believe, that the Ramseys, murdered their daughter. I can't go there. I would have to have solid proof. No way they did it. If it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt, I will sad and shocked, to say the least.I am with you. It makes no sense to me at all.

[Chrishope]

Michelle, call me confused also. I don't know what is true, or what is false. I do know one thing though. I just can't bring myself to believe, that the Ramseys, murdered their daughter. I can't go there. I would have to have solid proof. No way they did it. If it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt, I will sad and shocked, to say the least.


I'm not trying to start anything here - none of us know for sure if your theory is correct, but - Why? Why do you have a hard time beleiving the R's could do this? It wouldn't be the first time parents killed thier child - not by a long shot. Wouldn't be the first time parents sexually abused a child either. There is no reason to eliminate the R's just because they are parents.

[SuperDave]

"I really dont understand if the evidence is there against the Ramseys, what happened? I truly dont understand. What is the evidence? Is is that they acted "Weird" or there were fibers that were on JBR that matched PR sweater?"

Fibers from her sweater were found on the sticky side of the duct tape, the blanket her body was wrapped in, and tied INTO the knots of the cord she was strangled with. That's just for openers!

"Argue that with the judge, and the Grand Jury. Your peer group."

Just what is THAT supposed to mean?

"Second I also thought that I read PR was eliminated as the writer."

Nope, not even close.

"Fourth is this the Fibers from PR's sweater? And if so is it so uncommon that they would be on JBR? I mean she is her mom?"

But they weren't ON JBR. They were on items Patsy claimed she never saw or never went near wearing said sweater.

"How can they have no evidence against the Ramseys but so many are "sure" of their guilt?"

No evidence?! I've got a list I can have up in no time!

"The Grand jury, and a separate judge couldn't find reason to indict the Ramseys."

Much of the evidence wasn't IN when the GJ was in session and a judge who saw none of the police evidence. Dan Caplis talked about that today.

"Do people lhonestly think that if the evidence was there for an almsot certain ramsey hanging that the DA wouldn't have busted one of them by now?"

The DA has PROVEN to be biased toward the Ramseys as far back as 1998. It's a verifiable fact. I can show it to you if you want.

"They arrested a guy based on some emails. If they had this supposed "smoking gun" evidence for ramsey guilt they'd have acted on it."

I can't figure it either.

"There is evidence that was not presented to Judge Carnes or the Grand Jury that implicates the Ramsey's."

YES! Always a pleasure, LinasK!
"
The Ramsey's refused to take a polygraph or talk to LE for 4 months! And then, it was their own selected polygrapher, not one from the police! They tried to board John's private plane for Michigan, despite JB's body just being found- I think that should trump Christmas celebrations, don't you? Kinda like Scott Peterson and his parents still having Christmas dinner with the neighbor instead of looking for the "missing" wife they knew was already dead and by whom."

"Patsy was NOT eliminated as the writer of the note, we now know JMK didn't write it!"

Yep.

"John's black shirt fibers were found on JB's genitals, that can't be explained except for sexual abuse."

And don't they know it!

"If they want to believe, what they believe, for whatever reason they believe, what they believe, who are we to argue with them."

Yeah, we foolishly cling to evidence in the face of adversity! LOL

"Fibres will travel."

To the basement?

"So the fibers that were on her were definatly JR's? I always thought that was a rumor???? See I am confused, lol..."

it's no rumor, michelle.

"It wouldn't be the first time parents killed thier child - not by a long shot. Wouldn't be the first time parents sexually abused a child either. There is no reason to eliminate the R's just because they are parents."

Not by a damn sight!

[close_enough]

Oh come on...first, the fibre evidence thing is silly. THEY LIVE IN THE HOUSE. Fibres will travel.

Second, the hand writing thing doesn't mean much. I bet many people would not be eliminated from it. Because she wasnt totally eliminated is IMO lame evidence to try and support this theory.

Do you really think if they were guilty they'd try and get out of town ASAP when it was OBVIOUS they'd be suspects? Wouldnt you think that would help point to them?


I can see them being stubborn with trying to work with LE since it seems they were being tried and convited by LE and the media 3.2 seconds after the case opened. That'd tick me off too if I was innocent yet people continued to claim i was guilty.

I am not saying they are innocent (I HAVE NO CLUE) but the evidence you listed is IMO silly and points to nothing.

but they weren't......parents/family members are always the first to be suspected/questioned in an investigation where a child has been murdered....parents with nothing to hide, have no reason to be "stubborn"....the R's were treated like royalty pretty much, at the beginning, then it became quite apparent that their 'story' had holes in it....i will always believe that if John or Patsy didn't kill JBR, then they definately covered for someone....

[twinkiesmom]

If you haven't read all the transcripts in this case, don't complain why you don't understand the concept of RDI.

[close_enough]

I'm not trying to start anything here - none of us know for sure if your theory is correct, but - Why? Why do you have a hard time beleiving the R's could do this? It wouldn't be the first time parents killed thier child - not by a long shot. Wouldn't be the first time parents sexually abused a child either. There is no reason to eliminate the R's just because they are parents.

exactly....go read a few threads over at "crimes in the news"....parents kill/abuse their own children....it's nothing new

[lilpony]

I'm not trying to start anything here - none of us know for sure if your theory is correct, but - Why? Why do you have a hard time beleiving the R's could do this? It wouldn't be the first time parents killed thier child - not by a long shot. Wouldn't be the first time parents sexually abused a child either. There is no reason to eliminate the R's just because they are parents.
Well, I am just not sure that they did this. I know parents everyday, murder their children and abuse them. But with this case, the way JBR was murdered. I just do not want to believe that they would do all this to their little girl. I just can't believe it, I just can't go there. It has to be proven to me that they did it. I just don't know how a parent could do this. I can't comprehend it or I just don't want too.
Do you understand what I am trying to say?

[Camper]

Well that is what I am getting at, I really dont understand if the evidence is there against the Ramseys, what happened? I truly dont understand. What is the evidence? Is is that they acted "Weird" or there were fibers that were on JBR that matched PR sweater? I dont know.:confused:



--->>>I for one would like to see ALL of the telephone records for Christmas Day AM, until 2 PM December 26th.

WE would know then who called whom, and what time anyone was called, 10 PM, 11PM, 12PM, 1AM etc etc.

Bank records would be good too, HOW much JR cash receivables the end of 1997 when JR sold his plane at a loss to his private pilot.

WE never knew ANY of this, which leaves wonderment for me.

Plus all of the ODD behaviors that WE have never seen in Marc Klaas, Ms. Runnion, Walsh etc. etc. OR ANY murdered childs parent.

.

[michelle]

If you haven't read all the transcripts in this case, don't complain why you don't understand the concept of RDI.Like I said in my original post, its been awhile but I have read alot on this case. I just want to know what are the reasons people believe in their guilt, I am allowed to ask.

[michelle]

--->>>I for one would like to see ALL of the telephone records for Christmas Day AM, until 2 PM December 26th.

WE would know then who called whom, and what time anyone was called, 10 PM, 11PM, 12PM, 1AM etc etc.

Bank records would be good too, HOW much JR cash receivables the end of 1997 when JR sold his plane at a loss to his private pilot.

WE never knew ANY of this, which leaves wonderment for me.

Plus all of the ODD behaviors that WE have never seen in Marc Klaas, Ms. Runnion, Walsh etc. etc. OR ANY murdered childs parent.

.Well have they ever let known what was on the phone records? And who called who ect.

[LinasK]

Well, I am just not sure that they did this. I know parents everyday, murder their children and abuse them. But with this case, the way JBR was murdered. I just do not want to believe that they would do all this to their little girl. I just can't believe it, I just can't go there. It has to be proven to me that they did it. I just don't know how a parent could do this. I can't comprehend it or I just don't want too.
Do you understand what I am trying to say?
lilpony, I don't want to believe it, but I can! I myself am a molestation victim by a close relative. My own mother chose to believe her brother over me! It happens.

[julianne]

JBean, you, and I, and michelle know that, but we don't want to force our opinion, based on existing evidence, on anyone else, do we. If they want to believe, what they believe, for whatever reason they believe, what they believe, who are we to argue with them.
Hey, Buzz....don't forget about me, too!

[southcitymom]

they sure did...there will never be any justice for JonBenet
There is ALWAYS justice....whether we get to see it or not.

[Peter Hamilton]

linasK--sorry to hear that--must not be easy going thru that experience

[julianne]

lilpony, I don't want to believe it, but I can! I myself am a molestation victim by a close relative. My own mother chose to believe her brother over me! It happens.
LinasK....

I don't think lilpony was saying she couldn't believe molestation could not happen. We all know that happens, and I am sorry your Mother chose to not believe you. That is terrible, and I am sure has affected you for a long time.

As sick, twisted & perverted molestation/incest is...there is a HUGE difference between that and murder.

[ljwf22]

Isn't true that LE didn't obtain they clothes the Ramseys were wearing until almost a year after the crime? I heard a clip where Patsy stated 'They never asked (which I'm not sure I believe)', 'We couldn't even remember what we were wearing' and 'They had to show us pictures (of what they were wearing)'

[ljwf22]

Well have they ever let known what was on the phone records? And who called who ect.
I believe the Boulder DA (ALex Hunter) would not issue a warrant for these records. He wanted to ASK the Ramseys to hand them over!

[lilpony]

lilpony, I don't want to believe it, but I can! I myself am a molestation victim by a close relative. My own mother chose to believe her brother over me! It happens.
LinasK. I am so sorry. If they did this, there should have been something that would have pointed directly to them. And if there was, why wasn't something done about it. I mean how could they cover for this horrible crime. Wouldn't you think they could break one of them? This is so frustrating isn't it? Confusing too!

[Peter Hamilton]

lilpony--what exactly are you saying? that you can't believe the R's killed their daughter? molested their daughter'? the garrote? the paintbrush? which part? or all parts?

[lovebites]

Well, let's see.
Maybe it has something to do with their lying and their refusal to co operate with LE.
Maybe it has something to do with PR not being able to be eliminated as the writer of the note.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact they were trying to get out of town within the hour of their daughters body being found.
Maybe it has something to do with fibre evidence.
You want more reasons, I got more :)
What exactly was their explanation for wanting to leave town immediately following the discovery of their daughter's body? I've never really heard what they gave as their rationale for such an odd reaction.

[lilpony]

LinasK....

I don't think lilpony was saying she couldn't believe molestation could not happen. We all know that happens, and I am sorry your Mother chose to not believe you. That is terrible, and I am sure has affected you for a long time.

As sick, twisted & perverted molestation/incest is...there is a HUGE difference between that and murder.
Julianne, thats correct. I was implying molestation couldn't happen, of course it can and does. I meant that I can't believe JBR parents could murder her in that way, and be able to cover it up, without breaking. Its just unbelieveable.

[Peter Hamilton]

lilpony,you don't think Susan Smith case was worse than this? I do

[Chrishope]

Like I said in my original post, its been awhile but I have read alot on this case. I just want to know what are the reasons people believe in their guilt, I am allowed to ask.

You have to look at it like a crime novel, or a made for TV movie. The reason you have to look at it that way is this - all we can do is speculate from the evidence available to the public. Sort of like figuring it out from clues in a novel or in a movie.

A crime novel where police are called in to investigate a rape/murder, and where on page 2, they find the father's semen in the girl's vagina and his fingerprints on the blody knife would be a very short book, and not much of a thriller.

We aren't going to get iron-clad evidence in this case. Not enough for a conviction anyway. Can fibers innocently get entwined in the garrotte? I don't know. We have to call in fiber experts. Since both sides will do this, there's no doubt the fiber experts will disagree.

If this is ever solved it will be like on TV. The suspect will break down and sob and admit guilt. IOW, this case will never be solved, and will never go to trial.

But we can look at the evidence and ask where it leads us. Many of us think the RDI makes the most sense. We'll never have the sort of proof that will hold up in court, but we're still convinced.

I'll give you a few reasons for a start, then let others continue.


A. The ransom note is staging, there was never an actual kidnapping planned, which later went bad. Why ?

1. Dead bodies left in the house with RNs don’t often result in payment of ransom.

2. It was hand written. Most RN authors would like to avoid it being
traced to them. The R's if covering up, wouldn't have had a choice.

3. 118K points to someone who knows JR’s bonus. No real kidnapper or intruder would point to himself that way.

4. It’s the longest, most rambling RN in history. It just doesn’t seem
like a real RN.

5. It’s written on the R’s paper, with one of their sharpie markers. A real kidnapper would have come prepared with the RN already written.

If it’s staging, who has more reason to write it, an intruder paedo with no intention of collecting ransom, or the R’s to coverup? I think the later.

[Peter Hamilton]

Dr Jeffrey McDonald stabbed his own little kids to death--So did Darlie Routier--what's worse than that?

[lilpony]

Isn't true that LE didn't obtain they clothes the Ramseys were wearing until almost a year after the crime? I heard a clip where Patsy stated 'They never asked (which I'm not sure I believe)', 'We couldn't even remember what we were wearing' and 'They had to show us pictures (of what they were wearing)'

Whaaaaat, your kidding me! Thats crazy! How come the case was fumbled so badly...weird!

[Peter Hamilton]

Chrishope--nice post

[Chrishope]

Well, I am just not sure that they did this. I know parents everyday, murder their children and abuse them. But with this case, the way JBR was murdered. I just do not want to believe that they would do all this to their little girl. I just can't believe it, I just can't go there. It has to be proven to me that they did it. I just don't know how a parent could do this. I can't comprehend it or I just don't want too.
Do you understand what I am trying to say?

No. I don't really care who did it. I don't find the idea of he parents doing it any more disturbing than an intruder doing it. This stuff happens. Parents have done similar things. So have intruders.

[lilpony]

lilpony--what exactly are you saying? that you can't believe the R's killed their daughter? molested their daughter'? the garrote? the paintbrush? which part? or all parts?
Oh boy, I am under pressure, hehe!! I don't preform well under pressure! LOL

Ok, I DON"T want to believe they killed their daughter, its not proven to me yet. I can't believe they would use a garrote, on their little girl, how can they go that far. If they did this, they are twisted and sick!

[michelle]

You have to look at it like a crime novel, or a made for TV movie. The reason you have to look at it that way is this - all we can do is speculate from the evidence available to the public. Sort of like figuring it out from clues in a novel or in a movie.

A crime novel where police are called in to investigate a rape/murder, and where on page 2, they find the father's semen in the girl's vagina and his fingerprints on the blody knife would be a very short book, and not much of a thriller.

We aren't going to get iron-clad evidence in this case. Not enough for a conviction anyway. Can fibers innocently get entwined in the garrotte? I don't know. We have to call in fiber experts. Since both sides will do this, there's no doubt the fiber experts will disagree.

If this is ever solved it will be like on TV. The suspect will break down and sob and admit guilt. IOW, this case will never be solved, and will never go to trial.

But we can look at the evidence and ask where it leads us. Many of us think the RDI makes the most sense. We'll never have the sort of proof that will hold up in court, but we're still convinced.

I'll give you a few reasons for a start, then let others continue.

My theory of the case. JRDI

A. The ransom note is staging, there was never an actual kidnapping planned, which later went bad. Why ?

1. Dead bodies left in the house with RNs don’t often result in payment of ransom.

2. It was hand written. Most RN authors would like to avoid it being
traced to them. The R's if covering up, wouldn't have had a choice.

3. 118K points to someone who knows JR’s bonus. No real kidnapper or intruder would point to himself that way.

4. It’s the longest, most rambling RN in history. It just doesn’t seem
like a real RN.

5. It’s written on the R’s paper, with one of their sharpie markers. A real kidnapper would have come prepared with the RN already written.

If it’s staging, who has more reason to write it, an intruder paedo with no intention of collecting ransom, or the R’s to coverup? I think the later.The RN is the longest one in history I think, It makes no sense at all. It all too me makes no sense, lol. Thats why I am asking, It just seems like if they killed her couldnt they have gone about it differently like writing the note then taking her body somewhere else? Why leave it in the house?

[michelle]

Oh boy, I am under pressure, hehe!! I don't preform well under pressure! LOL

Ok, I DON"T want to believe they killed their daughter, its not proven to me yet. I can't believe they would use a garrote, on their little girl, how can they go that far. If they did this, they are twisted and sick! I know exactly what you are getting at lilpony, its hard for us to comprehend that a parent can do this but they can, and they unfortunatly will continue too. I cant go there either because I am a parent too and it sickens me.

[LinasK]

LinasK. I am so sorry. If they did this, there should have been something that would have pointed directly to them. And if there was, why wasn't something done about it. I mean how could they cover for this horrible crime. Wouldn't you think they could break one of them? This is so frustrating isn't it? Confusing too!Thank-you Lilpony, Peter & others who have responded. It happened over 30 years ago, so I've had time to deal with it.

I believe Patsy stood by her man. That's why she wrote the ransom note and they did all the staging- to make it look like an intruder rather than admit her husband was molesting her daughter and face all the negative PR that would bring. When John saw he strangled her, JB got finished off with a head blow rather than seek medical help.

[Peter Hamilton]

michelle,then neighbors will tell the cops,hey the R's took the car out in the middle of the night--well,it worked for Wayne Williams for a while,he threwa lot of bodies in the river---still its quite risky

[Chrishope]

Another reason.

B. This was a sex crime.

1. Whoever killed JBR was a really pervy paedo. This is true whether it was JR or an intruder.

2. Whoever put the garrotte around her neck knew something of the kinky world of errotic asphyxiation, or wanted to explore it. This isn’t something the parents would do, as staging, if they hadn't known anyting of these kinds of sexual practices.

3. At the same time, the garrotte wasn’t very “professional”. If a ring of Paedos was involved, or even just one paedo who had some “friends” someone would have helped him make a good one. This garrotte was someone’s first go at AE.

4. The garrotte was made at the scene. An intruder pervy paedo would have brought one ready made.

It's not really proveable either way, but to go with an IDI theory you have to believe in an inept intruder, who doesn't really know how to make a garrotte, and doesn't bother to bring one with him, prefering instead to hope that the home will contain the necessary materials. Since it was built on the body, you also have to believe he frittered away the several hours he spent in the house by working crossword puzzles instead of making the garrotte he planned to use later that night. It just makes more sense to me that an R did this.

[close_enough]

3. 118K points to someone who knows JR’s bonus. No real kidnapper or intruder would point to himself that way.

the reason for the $118,000 was to throw suspicion toward JR's co-workers, imo...

[lilpony]

lilpony,you don't think Susan Smith case was worse than this? I do
Hmmmmm, that was pretty horrible as well.

[lilpony]

No. I don't really care who did it. I don't find the idea of he parents doing it any more disturbing than an intruder doing it. This stuff happens. Parents have done similar things. So have intruders.
Do you think both parents did it. Or one of them, and then the other covered for the other?

[Chrishope]

The RN is the longest one in history I think, It makes no sense at all. It all too me makes no sense, lol. Thats why I am asking, It just seems like if they killed her couldnt they have gone about it differently like writing the note then taking her body somewhere else? Why leave it in the house?

Why indeed. Why was it not discovered by FW or the police that morning? Perhaps it wasn't in the room at that time. I'm only speculating here.

JR was down the basement mid-morning. He discovered an unlatched window a few hours after finding out his daughter had been kidnapped. By the time he got to the top of the steps he'd forgotten about it, and so didn't tell the police that were standing in his living room. 4 months later, he remembers. When you look at the actions/statements of the Ramseys it's hard not to be suspicious of them.

[lilpony]

Thank-you Lilpony, Peter & others who have responded. It happened over 30 years ago, so I've had time to deal with it.

I believe Patsy stood by her man. That's why she wrote the ransom note and they did all the staging- to make it look like an intruder rather than admit her husband was molesting her daughter and face all the negative PR that would bring. When John saw he strangled her, JB got finished off with a head blow rather than seek medical help.
If JR strangled her, why would then have to do the head blow. She would have been already dead.

[michelle]

Why indeed. Why was it not discovered by FW or the police that morning? Perhaps it wasn't in the room at that time. I'm only speculating here.

JR was down the basement mid-morning. He discovered an unlatched window a few hours after finding out his daughter had been kidnapped. By the time he got to the top of the steps he'd forgotten about it, and so didn't tell the police that were standing in his living room. 4 months later, he remembers. When you look at the actions/statements of the Ramseys it's hard not to be suspicious of them.Oh I admit that 2 things stand out to me more then anything and that is the window, why not tell right away that is so important and 2 how was her body over looked the first time they went to search the house? I dont get that? I know that they thought they were dealing with a kidnapping but I would rip that house apart looking for my child. But those things can be explained as well.

[Chrishope]

Do you think both parents did it. Or one of them, and then the other covered for the other?

I think it's more likely JR was the sexual molester. It would be more common for a man to do this than a woman. I think Patsy knew what JR was doing to JBR. Why did she go along? Don't know. I only know that women have gone along with this sort of activity in other cases. It's not unusual for a woman to overlook this kind of thing rather than risk loosing a boyfriend. In this case, it's not some looser boyfriend, but a millionaire husband.

I think JR might have been expirementing with AE and it cause JBR to have heart failure. They had to hit her in the head to make it seem she was attacked by an intruder. I think Patsy went along with the coverup.

It's just a theory.

Another reason so many of us on the RDI side sometimes act is if we are certain is that the IDI theory has so many holes in it.

[wenchie]

[/b]

Whaaaaat, your kidding me! Thats crazy! How come the case was fumbled so badly...weird!


Not only that, but LE let Patsy's sister into the house the next day to get "some clothing for them to wear to the funeral", and she took tons of stuff out of the house - including the black pants and black boots that Patsy had worn on Christmas day (and was still wearing the next day).

[julianne]

Chrishope,

I have heard that the reasoning behind some people think that the garrotte was built on her body was because her hair was tangled in it.

Why isn't it possible that the garrotte was built PRIOR to being wrapped around her, and then her hair got tangled in it during the wrapping and/or twisting of the garrotte????

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

I have heard that the reasoning behind some people think that the garrotte was built on her body was because her hair was tangled in it.

Why isn't it possible that the garrotte was built PRIOR to being wrapped around her, and then her hair got tangled in it during the wrapping and/or twisting of the garrotte????

It's possible but not probable. The way that particular garrotte worked -or was suppossed to work, had it been made by someone knowing what they were doing, is that one pulls the handle to tighten the "noose" part. Twisting the handle would do nothing at all.

Pulling on it could catch some hairs, and pull them out, but probably wouldn't twist them.

It is possilbe that her hair got tangle in it somehow, even if it were already built prior to use. It just doesn't seem the most likely explanation -imo.

[Pharlap]

3. 118K points to someone who knows JR’s bonus. No real kidnapper or intruder would point to himself that way.

the reason for the $118,000 was to throw suspicion toward JR's co-workers, imo...
I believe the same thing.
And doing it at christmas....
If the Ramseys did it or someone else, it was planned......
Did the Ramseys have a maid? Not that she did it.
But if they did, what size underwear did she wear?
Didn't Nancy Grace say they weren't JonBenets?

[LaMer]

I won't argue it Buzz. There is no point. I believe it based on all the homework I have done. We all have access to the same information and are drawing different conclusions. so it goes.


ps: I got my phone call from the sea today

Hi JBean! :)

Hung jury is what you are describing. Hunter wanted a 'sure thing'! There is never a sure thing going in to a trial ;)

ps Hope is was a good call. I rec'd a call today too, time to shutter up.Not a good call.

[narlacat]

If I was John Ramsey, and the media swarmed me, more than once, let alone my son on his first arrival at his dorm, I would also want to leave the U.S.. I have seen the media in action, and it isn't a pleasant sight, especially if you happen to be in the middle of them, and don't want to be there, and they have hounded you for ten years..
I can't believe the R's haven't left the US earlier.
You'd think it would have been less stressful for PR in her last years living away from media attention, away from the US.

[close_enough]

I believe the same thing.
And doing it at christmas....
If the Ramseys did it or someone else, it was planned......
Did the Ramseys have a maid? Not that she did it.
But if they did, what size underwear did she wear?
Didn't Nancy Grace say they weren't JonBenets?

here's a good thread about the size 12 underpants :)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41606&highlight=size+bloomies

[SuperDave]

"Hung jury is what you are describing. Hunter wanted a 'sure thing'! There is never a sure thing going in to a trial"

LaMer, you just hit it! Don' believe the movies! There's no such thing as a "sure thing." I've studied true crime for years, and I have YET to find a case where every single puzzle piece fit together as kosher as a movie. It just doesn't happen. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

"Well, I am just not sure that they did this. I know parents everyday, murder their children and abuse them. But with this case, the way JBR was murdered. I just do not want to believe that they would do all this to their little girl. I just can't believe it, I just can't go there. It has to be proven to me that they did it. I just don't know how a parent could do this. I can't comprehend it or I just don't want too.
Do you understand what I am trying to say?"

I do understand. I was there. I felt the same way. But a few years of studying the horrible things parents have done to their children cured me. It might you, in time.

"If they did this, there should have been something that would have pointed directly to them."

The fibers are the best thing against them.

"And if there was, why wasn't something done about it."

Weak DA and million-dollar lawyers.

"I mean how could they cover for this horrible crime. Wouldn't you think they could break one of them?"

They wanted to! They wanted to do what the Brooklyn cops did with Lisa Steinberg's parents.

"michelle,then neighbors will tell the cops,hey the R's took the car out in the middle of the night--well,it worked for Wayne Williams for a while,he threwa lot of bodies in the river---still its quite risky"

Yeah, let's let tiretracks lead right to the body.

"This isn't something the parents would do, as staging, if they hadn't known anyting of these kinds of sexual practices."

They fact that it was staging means they didn't HAVE to know about it.

"I have heard that the reasoning behind some people think that the garrotte was built on her body was because her hair was tangled in it.

Why isn't it possible that the garrotte was built PRIOR to being wrapped around her, and then her hair got tangled in it during the wrapping and/or twisting of the garrotte????"

You don't understand, julianne. The hair wasn't tangled in it, it was tied into the knots!

[Peter Hamilton]

Super dave--that Lisa Steinberg case still haunts me---beat her to death cuz she kept staring at him---isn't that murderer about to be released? Joel steinberg?

[wenchie]

I think Joel was released from prison a couple of years ago.

[SuperDave]

"Super dave--that Lisa Steinberg case still haunts me---beat her to death cuz she kept staring at him---isn't that murderer about to be released? Joel steinberg?"

Already has! And Andrea Yates on top of it!

[Peter Hamilton]

thanks wenchie--I hope a big NYC bus runs him over

[Peter Hamilton]

Yates--the worst ever

[narlacat]

What exactly was their explanation for wanting to leave town immediately following the discovery of their daughter's body? I've never really heard what they gave as their rationale for such an odd reaction.I can't remember their explanation, JR said something like 'I have something important to do'.

It's not really an odd reaction if you look at it from the point of view that the Ramseys were as guilty as hell and they wanted to distance themselves from the scene and the body.

[Hyatt]

That is exactly why I dont understand. How can they have no evidence against the Ramseys but so many are "sure" of their guilt?Do you REALLY want to clear up your confusion? Someone mentioned that the Ramseys did not cooperate with LE. You answered they DID.

How about this: LE (and the then DA) says that the Ramseys did NOT fully cooperate. The Ramseys say they did. Whom do you believe?

But if I had to explain suspicion of Ramsey guilt in the most succint manner, this is what I would say:

A child was found dead with a rope around her neck in her basement. Only three people are known to have been in that house when she was killed: her parents and her brother. No evidence was ever found regarding the presence of anyone else. No break-in traces, no footprints, nothing.

Okay, say YOU'RE the investigator here. Are you going to go around looking for little green aliens from outer space, because, err .... , even if there was NO proof that they stopped by for some human coffee, well ..... they coulda .... and no one has proven that they DIDN'T?

JMO

[narlacat]

Well have they ever let known what was on the phone records? And who called who ect.
I don't know about the land line records but the cell phone records apparently showed no calls for the month of December.
Why didn't JR use his cell phone for the whole month of December?
He's only a CEO and it's only the busiest time of the year.

[SleuthingSleuth]

I don't know about the land line records but the cell phone records apparently showed no calls for the month of December.
Why didn't JR use his cell phone for the whole month of December?
He's only a CEO and it's only the busiest time of the year.
The cell phone records were cleared out before the police were given access.

I don't know if they ever got to check the house phone records.

[narlacat]

Oh come on...first, the fibre evidence thing is silly. THEY LIVE IN THE HOUSE. Fibres will travel.

Second, the hand writing thing doesn't mean much. I bet many people would not be eliminated from it. Because she wasnt totally eliminated is IMO lame evidence to try and support this theory.

Do you really think if they were guilty they'd try and get out of town ASAP when it was OBVIOUS they'd be suspects? Wouldnt you think that would help point to them?


I can see them being stubborn with trying to work with LE since it seems they were being tried and convited by LE and the media 3.2 seconds after the case opened. That'd tick me off too if I was innocent yet people continued to claim i was guilty.

I am not saying they are innocent (I HAVE NO CLUE) but the evidence you listed is IMO silly and points to nothing.
To the paint tote?


Funny that so many other people could be eliminated, but not PR.


JR wanted PR as far away from LE as possible, get her out, think later.

[Maybe So]

What exactly was their explanation for wanting to leave town immediately following the discovery of their daughter's body? I've never really heard what they gave as their rationale for such an odd reaction.

Well (assuming they are innocent) I for one wouldn't want to stay in the house my daughter was murdered in if I was them....I wouldn't feel safe and they had other family, other grown children they may have wanted to be with in that time of grief.....maybe in someplace they felt more comfortable with than say a neighbors house? Perhaps they simply were not thinking and simply wanted to run away from what was happening.

[LinasK]

Well (assuming they are innocent) I for one wouldn't want to stay in the house my daughter was murdered in if I was them....I wouldn't feel safe and they had other family, other grown children they may have wanted to be with in that time of grief.....maybe in someplace they felt more comfortable with than say a neighbors house? Perhaps they simply were not thinking and simply wanted to run away from what was happening.
Staying with a neighbor I could understand, but that was not the case! They were trying to board a plane to get out of the state! Within hours of her body being found! How is this helping LE???:doh:

[SleuthingSleuth]

Staying with a neighbor I could understand, but that was not the case! They were trying to board a plane to get out of the state! Within hours of her body being found! How is this helping LE???:doh:Ramsey actually had to be told by the police he needed to stick around. Otherwise...well, I guess he expected them to call him in Atlanta if they wanted to ask him something. :rolleyes:

[BirdieBoo]

Well (assuming they are innocent) I for one wouldn't want to stay in the house my daughter was murdered in if I was them....I wouldn't feel safe and they had other family, other grown children they may have wanted to be with in that time of grief.....maybe in someplace they felt more comfortable with than say a neighbors house? Perhaps they simply were not thinking and simply wanted to run away from what was happening.

But it makes me think of Scott Peterson : Who wants to stay in a house where your wife was kidnapped from?

[Maybe So]

But it makes me think of Scott Peterson : Who wants to stay in a house where your wife was kidnapped from?

kidnapped isn't the same as dead.

If your loved one is kidnapped you need to stay home in case she or the kidnappers tries to contact you......in the case of a murdered child I think it would be normal to want to get out of the house she died in.

[dingo]

Well (assuming they are innocent) I for one wouldn't want to stay in the house my daughter was murdered in if I was them....I wouldn't feel safe and they had other family, other grown children they may have wanted to be with in that time of grief.....maybe in someplace they felt more comfortable with than say a neighbors house? Perhaps they simply were not thinking and simply wanted to run away from what was happening.Were talking 20 minutes after her body was found...I for one cannot understand their reasoning for wanting to leave JB alone.....there was hardly time for shock to have set in.

[Maybe So]

Staying with a neighbor I could understand, but that was not the case! They were trying to board a plane to get out of the state! Within hours of her body being found! How is this helping LE???:doh:

It isn't helping LE. Maybe that isn't what you think about the same day your child dies. I would not be comfortable at a neighbors house...I would want to head for where my family was...or have them come to me. It's just one explanation. The other explanation is as you say that they were guilty (one of them anyway) and wanted to distance themselves. But wanting to leave in and of itself does not convince me of anyone's guilt in this case.

[SleuthingSleuth]

Were talking 20 minutes after her body was found...I for one cannot understand their reasoning for wanting to leave JB alone.....there was hardly time for shock to have set in.
No idea either...I mean, he just lost his daughter right there. People deal with things differently...but how he was, well, I dunno.

[LinasK]

It isn't helping LE. Maybe that isn't what you think about the same day your child dies. I would not be comfortable at a neighbors house...I would want to head for where my family was...or have them come to me. It's just one explanation. The other explanation is as you say that they were guilty (one of them anyway) and wanted to distance themselves. But wanting to leave in and of itself does not convince me of anyone's guilt in this case.
An innocent person would have their family travel to them, not leave the area. A guilty person leaving is called "flight of conscousness" I believe is the legal term. It's what O.J. did in the White Bronco chase and Scott Peterson also tried to head for the Mexican border, only he stopped to play golf on the way.

[BirdieBoo]

kidnapped isn't the same as dead.

If your loved one is kidnapped you need to stay home in case she or the kidnappers tries to contact you......in the case of a murdered child I think it would be normal to want to get out of the house she died in.

Yes, I realize that they are 2 different things, however, the result was the same in both cases (murder). And in both cases, the living family members (In ISP case, the perpetrator) did not want to go stay with a neighbor or in a hotel nearby, they wanted to get FAR FAR away from the scene of the crime. Which I would think is normal if the "someone" who participated in the crime was also the "someone" who perpetrated it.

Continuing with plans to go on a family vacation only hours after one of the family members has been murdered is strange IMO.

[Maybe So]

An innocent person would have their family travel to them, not leave the area. A guilty person leaving is called "flight of conscousness" I believe is the legal term. It's what O.J. did in the White Bronco chase and Scott Peterson also tried to head for the Mexican border, only he stopped to play golf on the way.


I don't know. If you didn't want to break the news to your older children over the phone you might want to go to them and tell them in person and be with them....

[LinasK]

I don't know. If you didn't want to break the news to your older children over the phone you might want to go to them and tell them in person and be with them....
If that was truly the case, the Ramsey's could well have afforded to have flown them out to Colorado.

[Tristan]

The cell phone records were cleared out before the police were given access.


HOW were the cell phone records cleared out?

Only someone inside the phone company can do that.


Anyone?

[LinasK]

Yes, I realize that they are 2 different things, however, the result was the same in both cases (murder). And in both cases, the living family members (In ISP case, the perpetrator) did not want to go stay with a neighbor or in a hotel nearby, they wanted to get FAR FAR away from the scene of the crime. Which I would think is normal if the "someone" who participated in the crime was also the "someone" who perpetrated it.

Continuing with plans to go on a family vacation only hours after one of the family members has been murdered is strange IMO.
And... both O.J. and Scott were headed for the Mexican border, out of the country! O.J. was traveling down 405 when spotted in Orange County. For both of them, driving was the preferred route rather than flying down there like the guy in Nevada (Darren Mack?) that just murdered his wife.

[SleuthingSleuth]

HOW were the cell phone records cleared out?

Only someone inside the phone company can do that.


Anyone?
Hmm...perhaps it was meant that the records on the cell phones themselves were wiped out, if that's possible...and I guess...the police couldn't get further access than that?

I've been looking for clear info about all of the phone records myself.

[dottierainbow]

Hi Michelle,
Here's some good reading for you. Don't forget to count me in, a Ramsey did not do it. I have not seen evidence only speculation.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html
That is exactly why I dont understand. How can they have no evidence against the Ramseys but so many are "sure" of their guilt?Amy

[marly56]

lilpony--what exactly are you saying? that you can't believe the R's killed their daughter? molested their daughter'? the garrote? the paintbrush? which part? or all parts?
if you ''keyword''- Belinda Schultz Fleet White Ramsey- you will get a wealth of information about this woman Belinda who came forward in the year 2000 and said that fleet white sr [who's son fleet white jr, is a close friend of john ramsey] molested her along with other children at ''holiday parties'', the way she described it as if this was some kind of group that would molest children. she also says that this garroting[choking] was used to make the child appear to be orgasmic.also she says the reason this group held these molestations during the holidays was to give the children time to heal and that this group would hit the children inthe head because the wounds would be covered by their hair to hide the abuse.that the children were hit for noncompliance.,...if belindas story is true.. my question...was KARR there? was it an accident? even if he was not there as a witness, did he hear it through the childporn grapevine? these are very powerful people involved ...and law enforcement refused to ''Believe'' Belinda.

[s_finch]

Because contrary to what some here imply, the evidence isn't sooooooooo great to point to their guilt.

Do people lhonestly think that if the evidence was there for an almsot certain ramsey hanging that the DA wouldn't have busted one of them by now? COME ON. They arrested a guy based on some emails. If they had this supposed "smoking gun" evidence for ramsey guilt they'd have acted on it.

The longer the case goes on the WORSE they look.

Look, I am not saying the ramseys are 100% but it is common sense to see they arent easily guilty since they'd have been charged by now.

Sorry, but unfortunately common sense has not prevailed in this case, if it had, there would have been indictments handed down long before now. Yes, I honestly believe that the evidence could be there to indict the R's and yet they could get away with it. JR has money, clout, connections---"the guy we're not supposed to mention anymore" had none of those. I'm not a complete RDI, but I do believe that if they weren't personally responsible, JR and PR did know/knew who did it. Patsy can't talk anymore, not that they let her talk anyway, and who knows what Burke knows but he won't be talking either. John will take it with him to his grave also and maybe, just maybe, many years from now when it's safe for them to do so, someone who knows the truth will tell it.

[christine2448]

michelle...anything & everything you ever wanted to know about JBR's death is here....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20136
Wow, thanks, a ton of info!

[christine2448]

--->>>I for one would like to see ALL of the telephone records for Christmas Day AM, until 2 PM December 26th.

WE would know then who called whom, and what time anyone was called, 10 PM, 11PM, 12PM, 1AM etc etc.

Bank records would be good too, HOW much JR cash receivables the end of 1997 when JR sold his plane at a loss to his private pilot.

WE never knew ANY of this, which leaves wonderment for me.

Plus all of the ODD behaviors that WE have never seen in Marc Klaas, Ms. Runnion, Walsh etc. etc. OR ANY murdered childs parent.

.
TEETER/TOTTER, TEETER/TOTTER

[less0305]

If that was truly the case, the Ramsey's could well have afforded to have flown them out to Colorado.

Exactly....as in "Plans have changed. We need you to come to Colorado. Something terrible has happened and we all need to be together here right now, so I've arranged for you to fly here at this time on this plane."

[SuperDave]

All I ask is a place to say my piece, and you will see the evidence I can give you.

[emmcee]

What is the latest info on Burke? Is he still in school? I used to think maybe he 'accidently' killed his sister and his parents covered up for him. Now I'm leaning toward John doing it and Patsy covering for him. Either way, I think Patsy's stress of covering for a family member contributed to her fatal illness. If Burke is innocent but suspects that his dad is guilty, would he be likely to 'accidently' 'spill the beans' while out partying some night? (Assuming he parties like most guys his age.) I simply haven't heard much about him, and he was rather in the middle of things there.

[michelle]

Hi Michelle,
Here's some good reading for you. Don't forget to count me in, a Ramsey did not do it. I have not seen evidence only speculation.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html
AmyThanks Amy!! :blowkiss:

[SuperDave]

michelle, almost all of the intruder points can be refuted.

Remember: there's no such thing as a perfect case. Doesn't happen except in Hollywood.

[michelle]

michelle, almost all of the intruder points can be refuted.

Remember: there's no such thing as a perfect case. Doesn't happen except in Hollywood. Oh I know, this case makes me crazy, I just want someone to own up to it and he held accountable. Its so sad.

[SuperDave]

It sure is.