JonBenet's education

[K. Taylor]

Hello everyone-

This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for awhile. I used to visit regularly but forgot about the case until JMK hit the news. As someone who always thought Patsy did it, I was not surprised to see JMK revealed as krank.

Anyway, I did a search but haven't seen this mentioned, so forgive me if it's been discussed before. I was on ForumsforJustice and was reading Sylvia's review of DOI. Something caught my eye: on page 3 of the book she quotes John as writing that at Christmas -

"JonBenét asked for Burke’s assistance with the name tags, since he could read and she couldn’t.”

That seemed odd to me. The average kindergartener is 5 and can definitely read and write. They won't be writing novels, of course, but should be able to handle simple words and sentences - and certainly their own names. I would say the average kindergartener would also be able to handle the simple task of other people's names, especially those in their family. They might need prompting, but John stated quite unecquivocally that JonBenet couldn't read, not that she needed some spelling help.

Lest we forget, JonBenet was no ordinary 6 year old. From Patsy's Christmas newsletter which someone in another thread kindly linked to:

JonBenet is enjoying her first year in 'real school.' Kindergarten in the Core Knowledge program is fast paced and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead to first grade math.

So why was a 6 year old in a supposedly intensive kindergarten program - and supposedly an above average student - not able to read, according to her own father?

[southcitymom]

Hello everyone-

This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for awhile. I used to visit regularly but forgot about the case until JMK hit the news. As someone who always thought Patsy did it, I was not surprised to see JMK revealed as krank.

Anyway, I did a search but haven't seen this mentioned, so forgive me if it's been discussed before. I was on ForumsforJustice and was reading Sylvia's review of DOI. Something caught my eye: on page 3 of the book she quotes John as writing that at Christmas -

"JonBenét asked for Burke’s assistance with the name tags, since he could read and she couldn’t.”

That seemed odd to me. The average kindergartener is 5 and can definitely read and write. They won't be writing novels, of course, but should be able to handle simple words and sentences - and certainly their own names. I would say the average kindergartener would also be able to handle the simple task of other people's names, especially those in their family. They might need prompting, but John stated quite unecquivocally that JonBenet couldn't read, not that she needed some spelling help.

Lest we forget, JonBenet was no ordinary 6 year old. From Patsy's Christmas newsletter which someone in another thread kindly linked to:

JonBenet is enjoying her first year in 'real school.' Kindergarten in the Core Knowledge program is fast paced and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead to first grade math.

So why was a 6 year old in a supposedly intensive kindergarten program - and supposedly an above average student - not able to read, according to her own father?
My very bright 6-year-old is in private school and he can read and write a bit. He's not terribly interested in reading and writing. He will always ask for help from someone who reads and writes more easily than he does.

So I have never found the fact that JBR couldn't read and write well particularly interesting. Different kids just learn stuff at different ages. I know 5 year olds who are great at reading and writing and 6 year olds who are just starting - depends on the child and their level of interest.

[Nehemiah]

I have always viewed DOI as the Ramseys' (et al) attempt to speak to any of the "evidence" (real or perceived) out there.

Maybe they were trying to paint a happy picture of B/JB working together on projects, so as to squelch the BDI theorists.

[i_dont_chat]

Sometimes children can read printing, but not cursive. Gift tags could have been hand-written, and JonBenet couldn't read them.

IMHO

[jubie]

I have always viewed DOI as the Ramseys' (et al) attempt to speak to any of the "evidence" (real or perceived) out there.

Maybe they were trying to paint a happy picture of B/JB working together on projects, so as to squelch the BDI theorists.


Exactamondo! But when I finished the book I realized I hadn't read about them explaining away the pineapple like they had every other aspect of their possible guilt. Did I miss it or am I right in that they didn't mention it at all?

[Love_Mama]

Lots of kids can't read and write at age 6. Every kid learns at a different speed. For Instance . I have two grandson's born 3 weeks apart and when they were six........one couldn't read at all and the other one was reading at 3rd. grade level. See? Doesn 't mean anything. The one who couldn't read now reads very well and the other one (both age 9) now is reading college level!
Go figure.........all kids are different.

xxxxxxxxxxxxooooooooo
mama (feeling old cause I just cleaned the whole dang house and I AM old!
WHERE is that maid! ;)


WELCOME TO WEBSLEUTHS and keep posting..................... :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

xxxxxxxxoooooo
mama

[Lauren]

There are alot of kids who cannot read at that age. Esp. names that may be different. Someone could read and help her though. But you can't imagine how many can't even spell their own names.

[wenchie]

Sometimes children can read printing, but not cursive. Gift tags could have been hand-written, and JonBenet couldn't read them.

IMHO

But John Ramsey clearly stated that Jonbenet couldn't read.

Apparently, she couldn't even read her own name or the names of her family.

[K. Taylor]

My very bright 6-year-old is in private school and he can read and write a bit. He's not terribly interested in reading and writing. He will always ask for help from someone who reads and writes more easily than he does.
But he can read. If she simply needed help the normal thing would be to write, "Burke helped his little sister with the cards." But emphasizing that she couldn't read seems odd to me.

When I taught kindergarten, only one of the kids couldn't read at all - including her own name - and she was severely developmentally disabled. The above average kids could read picture books. The average kids could write the alphabet, their own names, and simple words. Below average kids could write and read their own names but struggled with other words. I nannied for a 4 year old and she also could write her own name and the names of immediate family members - those are the first things kids learn.

The Core Knowledge program at that level really does stress reading and language. Patsy claimed JB was above average in that program: so she at least should've been able to read and write the names of her family members, I would think. Even if JB needed spelling help for anything beyond "Mom" "Dad" "JonBenet" and "Burke," that's not how John worded it. He said couldn't read, period. If it was in cursive, I would expect he would've noted "Burke helped JB because the tags were written in script."

[bertajo]

I would like to know more about the context of the quotation because I firmly believe JonBenet would fully have the capacity to read the names of her immediate family regardless of her reading skills. Names are typically sight words; kids learn to recognize the shape prior to developing any understanding of letters, sounds, syllabication, etc. In theory, she would have been exposed to Burke's name hundreds of times. Were others in the present when gifts were being exchanged?

[twinkiesmom]

Unless you have a school district that has full day kindergarten, they're just teaching very basic skills in kindergarten...reading and writing letters, small words, maybe some phonics.

It would be unusual (but not unheard of) if she was an experienced reader at age 6 (and only half a year of kindergarten).

Reading cursive is a much more advanced skill.

[ljwf22]

I would like to know more about the context of the quotation because I firmly believe JonBenet would fully have the capacity to read the names of her immediate family regardless of her reading skills. Names are typically sight words; kids learn to recognize the shape prior to developing any understanding of letters, sounds, syllabication, etc. In theory, she would have been exposed to Burke's name hundreds of times. Were others in the present when gifts were being exchanged?
Good point. I also taught kindergarten for a long time and everyone could recognize their own name. In this case, the tags could've been in cursive (as someone pointed out previously), or in 'Santa' writing (my dad tried to disguise his handwriting) OR to avoid arguments, someone suggested that Burke help JonBenet or vice-versa.

[panthera]

I do understand the differing reports between John and Patsy regarding JonBenet's abilities. I believe Patsy had her on a pedestal and she could do no wrong. Naturally, she would brag about her in a Christmas letter, and quite possibly fabricate what JonBenet was able to do. Who's going to know the difference, right? JonBenet had to be perfect and be older than she actually was. There obviously was something wrong, as evidenced by the continued bedwetting. John, it seems, was being more honest regarding JonBenet's reading abilities. If Patsy weren't so busy enrolling JonBenet in beauty pageants and having her memorize song and dance routines, maybe the poor little girl would've been able to read.

[Malapoo]

Or it could be a "man statement" - Patsy might have been more specific in saying "she can't read cursive or she still needs some help with reading" where a man might just make a broader statement of she can't read when that's not really accurate. I think some people just tend to make the shortest statement possible rather then elaborating.

[dingo]

Jonbenet was also said to be learning french......the poor child was proberly totally confused.

[southcitymom]

But he can read. If she simply needed help the normal thing would be to write, "Burke helped his little sister with the cards." But emphasizing that she couldn't read seems odd to me.

When I taught kindergarten, only one of the kids couldn't read at all - including her own name - and she was severely developmentally disabled. The above average kids could read picture books. The average kids could write the alphabet, their own names, and simple words. Below average kids could write and read their own names but struggled with other words. I nannied for a 4 year old and she also could write her own name and the names of immediate family members - those are the first things kids learn.

The Core Knowledge program at that level really does stress reading and language. Patsy claimed JB was above average in that program: so she at least should've been able to read and write the names of her family members, I would think. Even if JB needed spelling help for anything beyond "Mom" "Dad" "JonBenet" and "Burke," that's not how John worded it. He said couldn't read, period. If it was in cursive, I would expect he would've noted "Burke helped JB because the tags were written in script."
Well, I still think that plenty of 6-year-olds don't read yet and that doesn't make them developmentally disabled. That said, I am curious to know why you think this might be important to the case. I look at it as a throwaway fact and don't have a hard time accepting it. But why do YOU think it stands out as important or pertinent?

[K. Taylor]

I don't think it's necessarily important to the case, but might be a clue to the Ramseys' characters. In reading Sylvia's analysis she didn't really focus on anything the Rams said (they said nothing new of course) in DOI but the way they said it. And this was a thing that stuck out to me: most parents, IMO, would try and disguise any deficiencies like that. Instead of saying your 6 year old couldn't read, period, you'd try to gloss over by saying "she's learning" or "still needs a bit of help." For John JB to say "she couldn't read," flat out, and not try to sugarcoat it with, "JB couldn't read cursive, so Burke helped her," or "Burke was older so he helped JB, who was still learning, with the cards" seems odd. Burke helped JB with the cards because "he could read and JonBenet couldn't." Even with cards that were just the names of friends and family members? It seems like a harsh sentence.

I'm wondering if, in that sentence, we get a bit of John's anger at resentment at the way Patsy was dealing with JB, in emphasizing the pageant crap above schooling? If Patsy had written that, I'm sure the scenario would've been, "Burke and JonBenet lovingly worked together on the gift tags, oh, how JonBenet sparkled when she handed out those presents. Her teacher always said how JonBenet was wonderful when she helped hand out things in school," etc.

[julianne]

Jonbenet was also said to be learning french......the poor child was proberly totally confused.
Actually, the best time to learn another language is in early childhood. Studies show it is much easier to grasp the concepts of another language as a child, versus an adult trying to learn a new language. Although, I do agree that she had too much on her plate--especially with those ridiculous beauty pageants.

[ljwf22]

Jonbenet was also said to be learning french......the poor child was proberly totally confused.
I think that was Patsy padding JonBenet's resume. ;)

[openminded1]

Many kinders come to school not able to recognize all the letters of the alphabet. The goal now is to have them reading by the end of Kindergarten- and by that I mean very simple Dr. Seuss stuff.

When my daughter did Kindergarten, it was very similar to the Core Knowledge program. She was already a good reader, so she didn't do much of the phonics, only parts of it to help her learn spelling skills, but it was very phonics intense. I can not see how a child with no disability wouldn't be reading after completing that program.

That being said, there are kids who are both gifted (even profoundly gifted) and learning disabled. So, it is possible that she was great at math, but had some issue that was making it hard for her to click with reading.

As for the French- many, many kids learn a foreign language early. That's the best time to teach them. If she were attending the day school here in my town, she would have French in Kindergarten there also.

[michelle]

My 5 year old can write his name and thats it, he recognizes it too but he cannot read yet at all. He starts Kindergarten tomorrow, his first day...:eek:

[southcitymom]

I don't think it's necessarily important to the case, but might be a clue to the Ramseys' characters. In reading Sylvia's analysis she didn't really focus on anything the Rams said (they said nothing new of course) in DOI but the way they said it. And this was a thing that stuck out to me: most parents, IMO, would try and disguise any deficiencies like that. Instead of saying your 6 year old couldn't read, period, you'd try to gloss over by saying "she's learning" or "still needs a bit of help." For John JB to say "she couldn't read," flat out, and not try to sugarcoat it with, "JB couldn't read cursive, so Burke helped her," or "Burke was older so he helped JB, who was still learning, with the cards" seems odd. Burke helped JB with the cards because "he could read and JonBenet couldn't." Even with cards that were just the names of friends and family members? It seems like a harsh sentence.

I'm wondering if, in that sentence, we get a bit of John's anger at resentment at the way Patsy was dealing with JB, in emphasizing the pageant crap above schooling? If Patsy had written that, I'm sure the scenario would've been, "Burke and JonBenet lovingly worked together on the gift tags, oh, how JonBenet sparkled when she handed out those presents. Her teacher always said how JonBenet was wonderful when she helped hand out things in school," etc.
I see your point.

Still, it might be seen more as John Ramsey's disconnect from his daughter. I mean - he was at work all the time - I get the feeling he just wasn't around a lot - I would assume that Patsy was in charge of schooling and education and knew more about it. Maybe JR just assumed JBR couldn't read and it didn't seem like a big deal to him because she was just a little girl.

My husband is very involved in both of our son's lives but I certainly know more details as to what they know and are capable of doing academics-wise. Like many Moms, I drop them off and talk to their teachers every day, read all the notes that come home and review all the work. Maybe JR just didn't have a clue because that's not an area of the household he handled.

[dingo]

Hi Michelle...I hope your son has a wonderful first day..I think its harder on the mums than it is on the child:D

[Jessiebell]

I agree that a six year old generally can read their own name. My three year old knows the difference between her name and my six year old's name. They also know Mommy and Daddy. That is weird - I never thought about it.

[michelle]

Hi Michelle...I hope your son has a wonderful first day..I think its harder on the mums than it is on the child:DHi Dingo, It is harder. I think I will sit outside his classroom tomorrow and wait, lol...

[Jessiebell]

Oh good luck from me too, Michelle! My oldest is in 1st grade this year - so I recall the first day very well!

A reporter from the local paper was there and she tried asking me questions about how I felt about her first day and I couldn't talk because I was so closeto crying - I answered her very quickly and moved on - I probably seemed rude, but I was just so embarassed to be in tears! The worst thing is - she had done Pre-K so it wasn't even as if it were new to me to drop her off- it just seemed so BIG that she was in REAL school.


Best of LUCK!

[michelle]

Oh good luck from me too, Michelle! My oldest is in 1st grade this year - so I recall the first day very well!

A reporter from the local paper was there and she tried asking me questions about how I felt about her first day and I couldn't talk because I was so closeto crying - I answered her very quickly and moved on - I probably seemed rude, but I was just so embarassed to be in tears! The worst thing is - she had done Pre-K so it wasn't even as if it were new to me to drop her off- it just seemed so BIG that she was in REAL school.


Best of LUCK!I know how you feel, my son was in pre-k last year too, he only went 3 days a week though and this is everyday now, big boy school I tell him.

[txsvicki]

Unless you have a school district that has full day kindergarten, they're just teaching very basic skills in kindergarten...reading and writing letters, small words, maybe some phonics.

It would be unusual (but not unheard of) if she was an experienced reader at age 6 (and only half a year of kindergarten).

Reading cursive is a much more advanced skill.

I agree. I don't think that many kids can read at all until the end of Kindergarten and then some of them still don't read very well. If Kindergarten teachers don't teach kids to read, if the parent doesn't or has so many activities like Patsy, then I can see how JonBenet couldn't read yet.

[CaliKid]

And haven't we heard that Patsy regularly took JB out of school to participate in her pageants? Missing days of school at kindergarten level would easily cause her to fall behind the other children.

[wenchie]

This might be off-topic, but I don't think the Ramsey's were especially close.

Did anyone here see their first TV interview when John was running for House Of Representatives?

The news head asked Patsy how she felt when John told her he was going to run.....and she said, "well, I didn't know. He didn't tell me."

They hadn't even talked about it! In fact, it sounded like she'd heard about it shorty before the interview (but with enough time left over to pack on the makeup).

I was stunned. Patsy didn't even seem to notice how weird it sounded.

[Jessiebell]

I agree. I don't think that many kids can read at all until the end of Kindergarten and then some of them still don't read very well. If Kindergarten teachers don't teach kids to read, if the parent doesn't or has so many activities like Patsy, then I can see how JonBenet couldn't read yet.
Oh that's true - we have full day 5 day a week kindergarten. We do also read to them every day.

I think that's what was raising an alarm for the OP, if I am correct, that if she couldn't read her name or recognize it, it may say a lot about how much adult attention she got and if she was taken to school enough.

[LinasK]

My 5 year old can write his name and thats it, he recognizes it too but he cannot read yet at all. He starts Kindergarten tomorrow, his first day...:eek:
Scarier yet, my 5-year-old who started Kindergarten today, can read my posts on this forum as I type them over my shoulder! She did that twice the other day as I was typing the phrases, "Makes no sense", and "my brother"!:eek:

[LinasK]

I think that was Patsy padding JonBenet's resume. ;)I think so too!

[openminded1]

Scarier yet, my 5-year-old who started Kindergarten today, can read my posts on this forum as I type them over my shoulder! She did that twice the other day as I was typing the phrases, "Makes no sense", and "my brother"!:eek:
I had a very early reader, and we never could spell things out the way most parents do with their kids. Makes life interesting to say the least. She's 5 now too, and I have caught her trying to read posts here before when I'm on here. She thinks it's neat that people want to "play detective". Nope, sorry hon- wait about 10 years and you can be a websleuther too.

[newtv]

babies in the family are always behind and they especially like someone else to do stuff for them..its not unusual at all

[michelle]

Scarier yet, my 5-year-old who started Kindergarten today, can read my posts on this forum as I type them over my shoulder! She did that twice the other day as I was typing the phrases, "Makes no sense", and "my brother"!:eek:Holy Cow, that is scary, lol....Watch what you write. Your child is pretty dang smart.

[UKGuy]

I don't think it's necessarily important to the case, but might be a clue to the Ramseys' characters.


K. Taylor,

It may become important if its required to explain why JonBenet was wearing Wednesday Day Of The Week underwear, and if this was normal practise for her.

.

[PagingDrDetect]

>>>>"babies in the family are always behind and they especially like someone else to do stuff for them..its not unusual at all"<<<<

Not at all. I was the youngest of six kids and read and wrote at a much younger age than any of my siblings. And no, I definitely didn't want others to do things for me. That was always a sticking point with me and probably because of my position in the family. I've always wanted to do everything myself, and I'm still like that. I think most kids with older siblings WANT to do things themselves because of jealously that their older siblings CAN.

Having older siblings is an advantage to learning that the oldest doesn't have... they learn from not only their parents but their older siblings. I very much recall learning to read with my oldest brother and doing flash cards with my sister and other brothers. I also recall my oldest brother helping me to learn to write the alphabet on that special lined paper that helped kids to learn lower case and capital letters. Actually, since both my parents worked, most of what I learned throughout my young life I learned from my siblings (and some of that was stuff my parents wouldn't have wanted me to know... like learning to drive a stick-shift at the age of 9 :D ).

[angelmom]

I don't think this has any relevance whatsoever, and making broad generalizations about being the youngest or not being read to is useless.

Kindergarteners of all intelligence levels have a broad range of reading skills. My daughter started kindergarten a few weeks ago. Some kids don't know all of the sounds the letters make, and some are reading chapter books. This is at a private school with above average test scores. At open house, the teacher assured all of us that any of these were considered "normal" in kindergarten.

One of the ones who doesn't know his letters is a friend's child. He is far from stupid, but not really interested in reading. His mom is an at-home mom whose life is all about her kids, a former teacher, and an Usborne books rep. I hardly think his reading ability signals her lack of attention, failure to read with him, or a severe developmental delay - they are screened for admission purpses.

When I was teaching 1st grade I also had a 2 students who didn't recognize all of their lowercase letters at the start of the year. They are now sophomores in college, and must have overcome their incredible disability somehow. :D

As for claiming that JBR is learning French, my kids have all had foreign language since 3 year old preschool. That's the best time to teach them. I would feel perfectly comfortable saying they were learning Spanish or French without thinking it was a lie. They were. "Learning" doesn't mean "fluent"!

Trash the Ramseys if you will - I don't know if they did it, but they very well might have - but save your resentment for stuff they actually did. Implying that JBR was retarded or neglected is a little extreme, don't you think?

[julianne]

Neglected is the last thing JonBenet was. As far as I can tell, Patsy doted on her two children. They were in no way neglected, IMO.

[southcitymom]

Neglected is the last thing JonBenet was. As far as I can tell, Patsy doted on her two children. They were in no way neglected, IMO.While I do not know the status of things in the Ramsey's household regarding this issue (I don't think anyone who didn't spend a lot of time around that family can really know), I DO think children can be doted on and neglected at the same time.

And I do think that a case can be made that a father who is rarely home (a fact Burke talked about in his statement and a fact that seems well-dcoumented in this case) is a neglectful father. In this regard, workaholism can be just as damaging to the whole family as alcoholsim - or other issues that take a parent out of the picture.

[southcitymom]

I don't think this has any relevance whatsoever, and making broad generalizations about being the youngest or not being read to is useless.

Kindergarteners of all intelligence levels have a broad range of reading skills. My daughter started kindergarten a few weeks ago. Some kids don't know all of the sounds the letters make, and some are reading chapter books. This is at a private school with above average test scores. At open house, the teacher assured all of us that any of these were considered "normal" in kindergarten.

One of the ones who doesn't know his letters is a friend's child. He is far from stupid, but not really interested in reading. His mom is an at-home mom whose life is all about her kids, a former teacher, and an Usborne books rep. I hardly think his reading ability signals her lack of attention, failure to read with him, or a severe developmental delay - they are screened for admission purpses.

When I was teaching 1st grade I also had a 2 students who didn't recognize all of their lowercase letters at the start of the year. They are now sophomores in college, and must have overcome their incredible disability somehow. :D


Thank you for this excellent post which sums up my feelings on the subject exactly.