Another drowning in La Crosse, WI - 8th since 1997

[Ang50]

Is anyone else keeping up on this?

21 year old Luke Homan, also a standout athlete, also a UW La Crosse male, attractive, good guy drowns in river after being out at the bars.

http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/9976647/detail.html

Jared Dion, also originally from Waukesha County, drowned in 2004. And possibly Matt Kruziki, Waukesha County, was a victim in a different city. I hope that the parents start talking with each other.

See vanceholmes.com and crimelibrary.com under serial killers for theories.

[reb]

<I hope that the parents start talking with each other.>

or...... maybe they should have been talking to their kids about the dangers of alcoholism.

[Ang50]

I'll admit that drinking is a problem, but I don't believe it accounts for the deaths. The campus was wilder in the 80's, and 18 year olds could legally drink, and they didn't have these deaths. Other colleges are on the river, and they don't have these deaths.

Jsonline.com has a balanced article on the situation today.

[CyberLaw]

What about all of the students who go out each night, drink, binge drink, leave the bars very drunk and make it back to their home or dorm.

8 deaths in 9 years. Look at all of the students who make it home safe.

Binge drinking, inexperienced drinkers, young age, darkness, not familiar with the area, did I mention extremely intoxicated, staggering around in the darkness, near the lake.........

Tragic accident, tragic circumstances.........

I very much doubt that a "serial" killer is "combing" the bars once a year for the last 9 years and targetting "lone" victims.

Because he/she would have to "know" on that particular night that "a particular" type of person who would fit "their particular" idea for a "victim" would be in that particular bar that particular night and that particular person would "binge" drink and "become lost from "his friends".

Some how I very much doubt it...........especially when it appears that serial killers take "pride" in the fact that they "personally" kill their victims, as in stabbing, gun, strangulation. It is for "personal satisfaction", not pushing a "drunk" college student into the water........no thrill in that........

At least the school is "taking" proactive education in regards to "education" and "awareness" in both school and the bars....

Oh by the way.... a heck of a lot has "changed" in the world in the last 18 years.........a lot........you cannot compare students today in University to students 18 years ago... let me see that was 1986, the internet was not even available......

[Sherlockmom]

>I'll admit that drinking is a problem, but I don't believe it accounts for the deaths. The campus was wilder in the 80's, and 18 year olds could legally drink, and they didn't have these deaths. Other colleges are on the river, and they don't have these deaths.

Jsonline.com has a balanced article on the situation today.<


Well maybe kids are dumber today than they were back then :( You may have seen some of these taverns on the riverfront. You can very easily stumble into the water.

What solid evidence do you believe points to foul play besides the numbers of deaths? I don't think autopsy found any indication of foul play on these victims whatsoeveer.

How many have died driving home from taverns in car accidents? Foul play?

Sometimes bad things happen when you get drunk. No one to blame but Mr. Stupidity. Sad that a life was wasted this way.

I would be very surprised that the Milw. Journal had a balanced article on anything but I'll check it out and see what they have to say. I'm open to any theories if they have strong enough evidence.

[Sherlockmom]

Well the JS article was pretty good. And most of what I read there led me to believe that indeed, alcohol is to blame for these incidents. Other victims who had fallen in and survived reported that it was alcohol that caused them to be disorientated and fall into the water. Indeed, the funniest part of the story was one guy who thought there was something fishy (no pun intended) to these drownings but admitted that he himself had fallen in.

One quote from the article:

>In one drowning, a young man fell through the ice. Another was chased into the river by a crowd. Still another young man hopped three fences, stripped naked, removed his wallet and wound up in the river, he said. <

When we drink and act stupid bad things can happen.

Despite the comments that this didn't happen years ago the fact show that

"Homan is the eighth young man pulled from the dark waters of the Mississippi River since 1997 and the 24th since 1974. "

I found little to point to foul play. The sanest advice is from the last paragraph of the article :

"Kondracki said one young man went through the ice on the river and scrambled back to safety, only to blame alcohol. He said he has seen reports of another young woman found by Minnesota police crossing a bridge that spans the river. The woman was so intoxicated, she thought she was going to campus, he said.
"We need to get past the denial and the anger and come to grips with that," he said.

I think as a society we've lost the ability to accept death in a reasonable way. There always has to be someone else to blame or someone to sue. Sometimes it's just that someone made a dumb choice and paid a heavy price for it". I can understand how it is hard to accept such a harsh consequence for a bit of youthful folly."

[reb]

MAYBE kids are dumber today than they used to be...??? uh, hello-- america-- they ARE, beyond the shadow of a doubt,, and getting dumber by the day.

what could account for more deaths recently in this particular situation? think about the other possibilities (besides a serial killer)--
are there MORE college students than there used to be?? yes.
are there MORE bars in that area (and in all college towns) than there used to be? yes.
are all those extra students, who are drinking at more bars, drinking more, and more often? yes.
so... you're gonna have more deaths. it's hard for me to feel sorry for them- no one put a gun to their head and forced them to be nominated for a darwin award.

alcoholism is an unbelievable epidemic with college students-- (it's a wonder they ever get any schoolwork done at all... and i guess many of them don't!)
but, no one seems to notice or care-- everyone thinks it's just a 'normal right of passage' and of course tons of businesses are dependent on these kids & their booze addiction for their profits... so everyone turns a blind eye. but it's very alarming that it seems to be a lifestyle for these pampered kids, killing off their brain cells in record numbers at such a young age... and these are the leaders of tomorrow.......???? scary.

i wonder if they'd be such boozehounds if they had to actually work and PAY for their OWN college education?

answer: most likely, no.

[Sherlockmom]

>i wonder if they'd be such boozehounds if they had to actually work and PAY for their OWN college education?

answer: most likely, no.<


Ding ding ding ding!! Give this gal a prize!

I believe that you do your kids no favor paying 100% of their way through school.

[Ang50]

Most college kids I know work, and are taking out large student loans as well. This in the face of rising tuition and lower and lower state support for schools while we keep building prisons... WI has a direct relationship, but it's off topic.

Here's what I know: My parents are both UW-L graduates, and they were dorm parents back in the 70's. I was actually born at Gundersen Lutheran, and my brother is also a graduate of UW-L. So close ties... needless to say.

Anyone who knows that area knows that, unlike other campuses or towns, the bars are NOT on the river. It's a number of blocks from the bars to the river. Even if someone got turned around, the area is not residential. It would require a walk, and it just seems odd that no one would see these guys. Not to mention, this is not the only WI college town near a body of water, and yet the drownings are generally only happening in LaX. (there was one or two at UWEC - and I think they may be connected anyway...)

These are young men - but all 21. Not freshmen, and not likely to be totally inexperienced drinkers. And they live in the town, so not unfamiliar with the area.

What I think causes further investigation is this: Jared Dion's hat was found next to the edge of the river. If my aunt's info is true (a LaX resident) she said that one of the nurses at Gundersen Lutheran stated that Luke's clothes were found folded at the edge of the river.

I'm not gung ho going for a serial killer theory. What I think is that the situation deserves more than a dismissive theory blaming "irresponsible" kids for getting drunk and dying. It upsets me that the police give the matter short shrift while kids die.

[Ang50]

Should also add my belief is due to anecdotal evidence as well. FWIW - my brother's roommate fit the same profile. (wrestler and football player, 21, out drinking at bars at UW-L, etc.) The guys were all out one night, and in line for the bus (ala Jared Dion) and when they turned around, Roomie wasn't there. Just vanished...

It turned out that a couple guys had started an altercation with Roomie, and he got separated while he dealt with these guys. His size, being known on campus, being drunk may have all made him a target. In this case, though, he didn't become a victim. He kicked the crap out of the two guys and found his way home.

However, I think that the outcome could have easily been different. We might have been searching for him and consoling his parents. You just don't know for sure...

[Sherlockmom]

>However, I think that the outcome could have easily been different. We might have been searching for him and consoling his parents. You just don't know for sure...<



But then you would have found bruises or marks on his body if he had been beat up or in an altercation of some type. Yet none of this type of evidence was found on any of the victims. Most guys would fight back if someone was trying to push them into the river.

The anecdotal evidence about the clothes neatly folded is just that. Anecdotal and hearsay. I haven't heard anything of that sort reported. And perhaps he went for a swim? Drunk people do dumb things. We had a young male relative that had too much to drink and didn't want to drive drunk so decided to try and swim home and drown.

You must have a very dim view of law enforcement to believe that the police would deliberately ignore evidence of a crime. Why? This is a small town. A serial murderer would be big news and something out of the ordinary for these cops. Something that they would be more likely to be interested in pursuing. not ignoring. What motive do you think there would be for them to do so?

[AlwaysShocked]

Yes, young drunks do incredibly stupid things at times. At an out-in-the-country home where I used to live the 19 yr. old son of a neighbor had a drinking party while the parents were out of town. For whatever reason this highly intoxicated young man went outside and laid down on the road that ran past the front of the house. Apparently he fell asleep there.

Another local man was coming home after working the 4-12 shift and ran over and killed the young man.

This was a terrible tragedy for both families. The man who was driving the car was so upset that he was never the same after that incident.

[BhamMama]

I very much doubt that a "serial" killer is "combing" the bars once a year for the last 9 years and targetting "lone" victims.

let me see that was 1986, the internet was not even available......I agree, I don't think there is anyone hunting anyone else out there either.

On the other hand, there was internet in 1986 ;-) Life has certainly changed though since then.

[Ang50]

I guess it's just simpler to believe that men in La Crosse are more stupid, more drunk and less balanced than anywhere else in the U.S. rather than to entertain the thought that something sinister could be going on.

Why don't women fall in? Why aren't accidents prevalent like this near the Landing in St. Louis, or Baltimore's Inner Harbor or Milwaukee's Water Street where the bars are actually ON the water?? Why are an overwhelming number of the young men prominent athletes?

I just can't think it's acceptable in any community to lose one outstanding young man a year, year after year, and blame him entirely instead of looking further into the problem. It's certainly not acceptable when 1/2 the community is of the opinion that foul play is involved.

[Sherlockmom]

>>I guess it's just simpler to believe that men in La Crosse are more stupid, more drunk and less balanced than anywhere else in the U.S. rather than to entertain the thought that something sinister could be going on. <<

No, but at other campuses young men die after drinking and falling off balconies, getting in cars and driving etc. I haven't checked but I wonder if you look into the statistics at any college campus and do not find at least one alchohol related death in the community a year.

Wasn't there an incident in Whitewater years ago where there was a party and they left candles burning and burned down the place and students died? It's been awhile so I don't remember all of the details of the story but I thought it was alcohol related.

I had 3 kids go through college and it seemed just about every year some kid died from alcohol poisoning or some other related alcohol event.

>>Why don't women fall in? Why aren't accidents prevalent like this near the Landing in St. Louis, or Baltimore's Inner Harbor or Milwaukee's Water Street where the bars are actually ON the water?? Why are an overwhelming number of the young men prominent athletes? <<

Now these points I do find would warrant further investigation. However keep in mind that binge drinking is more common in young males than females. Males may be more likely to walk home alone than a female. As for the athlete part? That too is curious but two of my daughter's were RA's in college one of them at a dorm that was just for athletes. Believe me, these guys like to drink. More so than let's say a music major. They can be some of the most obnoxious, overbearing entitled students at the college. Many of them are there on scholarships and get the best of everything and get away with alot more than other students would.

>>I just can't think it's acceptable in any community to lose one outstanding young man a year, year after year, and blame him entirely instead of looking further into the problem. It's certainly not acceptable when 1/2 the community is of the opinion that foul play is involved.<<

Well our LE shouldn't be driven completely by what 1/2 of the population thinks. Many of them think some pretty outrageous things but aside from that what makes you think that LE hasn't looked further into it and found nothing? Without something solid to go on what else would you have them do? Do you have knowledge that they haven't followed through on leads?

There is no evidence on the bodies, no leads to follow at all. So, what are they to do? Just start arresting people willy nilly and strong arm someone into confessing so that 1/2 of the population is satisified? Maybe they can have a public lynching and pacify the masses?

I haven't heard of one shred of evidence that points to anything else but accident. No solid leads whatsoever. They probably interviewed everyone and found nothing to go on.

Apparantly at least some of these guys aren't worried as they seem to still get pretty drunk regularly and try to walk home. If 1/2 of the population thinks there is foul play by the same river tosser over 20 years then why are more male students not heeding the warning and drinking responsibly and not walking off alone?

Well there is hope. It takes some strength to toss a big footballer player into a river drunk or not. It's been like what, 24 years now? Let's say the killer was 21 himself when he started hating athletes. Probably something to do with him not making the team or something. But I digress. By now he's 48 years old. No longer the spring chicken he once was. The serial killer is getting older. Sooner or later it will take it's toll on him. He'll pull a muscle, slip a disc or fall and break a hip while trying to play toss the athlete. This will be obvious to the police and they can arrest him. Case closed. Or not. LE will most likely try to cover this up to hide their lack of interest in the case for the past 24 years.

[Sherlockmom]

Blood alcohol came back .32 About 4 times the legal limit.

I'm surprised the guy could walk at all.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=509902

[reb]

OK,, from what i've read of the 'drowning in coincidence' website-- it seems that these deaths are occuring all over the place.

you're wondering why it's always men, and prominent athletes?? think about it... young men, and prominent athletes are the ones most likely to be drinking themselves to death and doing idiotic things.

it still seems to me to be alcohol-related and just that. perhaps it's just that young college kids are drinking more and more every year, and finally we are starting to see the results of people turning a blind eye to that.
it would be one thing if there was a one single shred of evidence that pointed to someone else doing it to them, but there doesn't seem to be. there may be a few 'odd' things, like the one guy being found on his back instead of on his chest- but that still doesn't seem to be evidence of anything to me. i think the parents want to bame someone else-- a boogeyman if you will, because they just can't believe that their own beloved son would take themselves out of the gene pool like that.

there also could be other things-- trends in drinks or drinking practices-- that are making these young men disoriented quicker. i think until parents, colleges, and society in general takes a good hard look at college drinking excess,, this kind of thing is going to happen. it's really not that unbelievable to me that someone would drink themselves into oblivion, go walking towards the nearby river & end up dead in it. i think what's happening is that it's just becoming more & more common.. as there are more & more kids, more bars, more alcohol, more excess.

[Ang50]

Young women drink too, they drink a lot, particular in WI, and particularly in La Crosse. They get disoriented and separated from friends, too, but in all the years, no drownings. Just men.

Federal Marshall Bill Kruziki is calling for a federal investigation - his sentiments are mine exactly -

"I just can't stand to see another incident like this happen and everybody sits back and 'Well, there's just another kid that went out drinking and died,'" Kruziki said.

Kruziki is the U.S. Marshal in Eastern Wisconsin and the former Waukesha sheriff. After 30 years in law enforcement, he said he sees a pattern in this string of deaths.After months of grieving, he said Homan's death sparked him to act.

Now, Kruziki is calling for a federal task force to review the entire string of drownings."Something has to be done other than just saying it's an accidental drowning because of alcohol. That's too easy. Something else has to be done," Kruziki said.

See http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/9982786/detail.html

[reb]

also another reason there have been so many student drownings in lacrosse (24 since 1974) could be: the fact that we are talking about the mississippi river here.. which is extremely deceiving. it looks calm on the outside but those currents can suck you under in a heartbeat... combined with, the area's relative proximity to the river. perhaps the way the roads are located near the bars make it very easy to just take a walk and & then end up in the river. and maybe something about the area where they go in is making them more likely to drown- how the current moves or pulls in that particular location, or it just happens to be very strong or deep in that area.
i bet a ton of students end up in the water all over the country after binge drinking, but many don't drown because it's not the mississippi.

btw, here's a question- how many college town drinking areas ARE right on the mississippi? i imagine there are a lot.. but if lacrosse were the only one-- then there's your answer.

[reb]

yes, but you have to remember that men are physcially (in general) able to drink far more than women.
and from observing young drunk women (while sober), the women are more likely to stay together, or just pass out or go home. it's just something about the way the male brain works-- they're just more likely to go off on their own and do something stupid. whenever you hear of someone getting high on drugs and thinking they can fly, and then jumping off a blacony-- 9 times out of 10, it's a guy. guys are more likely to get crazy, get violent, think they are invincible; more likely to try to do stunts from 'jackass'. it's the testosterone, that makes them do such stupid things, i would imagine.

[Ang50]

btw, here's a question- how many college town drinking areas ARE right on the mississippi? i imagine there are a lot.. but if lacrosse were the only one-- then there's your answer.

Well, there's Winona - a college town practically right across the Mississippi, and their bars are much closer, or right on the river. No deaths that anyone can remember. Farther down is an IL college town with bars on the water where Kruziki did drown. Farther up is the St. Croix - and I used to live in one of the towns on it, Hudson. Bars and a big park on the river. No deaths. Stillwater on the other side - no deaths. U of M has the river running right through it - there have been deaths. Other towns have had deaths in small amounts of water, creeks, lakes, etc. See Vance Holmes for the stats.

La Crosse, though, is way out of wack for number of deaths in the number of years. And while the Mississippi would be harder to get out of once you were in, the falling in part is what I can't understand. UW-Madison has the Terrace right on the water (beer drinking) and a TON of frat houses with docks and all right on the lake. Plus Lakeshore Path and a number of dorms on teh lake. I can't remember a single soul ever falling into the lake, yet there's so much more opportunity for it. State Street is just as close to the lake as Third Street, and more residential, so people would be more likely to get disoriented. It just doesn't add up.

[Sherlockmom]

>And while the Mississippi would be harder to get out of once you were in, the falling in part is what I can't understand.<


I can. They were skunk drunk!

There isn't much to go on as far as any evidence aside from coincidence that points to a crime being committed.

I thought that I saw a news segment after the drowning before this last one that showed how easy it was to fall into the river. I thought I saw video of some of these bars that backed up almost right onto the river and if you walked out the wrong door you were right there. And it didn't look like there were any railings or anything that would stop someone. But I've never been there and perhaps you have so you would know better than I.

Some of the cruise ship dissappearances were obviously crimes but there were a couple of other mysterious ones until video showed one of the victims, skunk drunk, falling overboard. It must be really hard for the parents to face up to reality in cases like these. A total waste of a life for such a stupid act. I think it is easy for these parents to believe that someone else, a psychological boogey man so to speak, stole their child's life from them rather than believe that they got so drunk that they just simple fell in the river and drown.

Where would you start an investigation Ang50 if you were in charge? I find this an interesting case and if I was a police officer I guess I'd be anxious to try and solve the mystery. My mind isn't closed to other possibilities with this one so I would start with a map of all of the drownings in the area in the past 24 years. I would also look at each victim and where they were last seen and with whom. Did anyone see someone they didn't recognize with the victim? I find it surprising that over the years and all of the drownings that no one saw anyone in the area of the drownings that looked suspicious. Do the victims have any common link? So far all we have heard is that they all were very intoxicated. Since the incidents have happened over such a long time I would look at any businesses in the area that have been in existance for the entire time. Also look at owners and employees and who has been there consistently over those years working there or owning a business who would have had opportunity.

In reading up on some of the cases not all of them were in the same area. One was a student from MN who fell in a different body of water, the other fell in a lake. However he was last seen drinking in a bar in Eau Claire. One of the boys had been drinking at a Halloween party. They all were drinking.

Another one was found in a river in Indiana. He was attending Notre Dame U. So far there was not found any evidence of foul play on the bodies. All had died of drowning and this one too had a very high blood alcohol level 3 times the legal limit.

If I was a LE officer I would notice that these did not all occur in the same town nor in the same state. The victims were found in different bodies of water. The only commonality is extreme drunkeness and that they are all male.

After reading the Vance site I found nothing there to indicate that these cases are related except for college guys getting too drunk and drowning. There are so many different bodies of water that these victims were found in from rivers, creeks and lakes and across several states and different schools that I don't see a connection there except again the drinking.

This kind of thing has been going on for centuries most likely. In doing some family genealogy I was reading some very old newspapers and ran across a story of a man drinking in the taverns one winter evening and leaving late in his horse and buggy. Apparantly his driving skills left much to be desired and it was winter. He overturned the buggy and drown in the creek. In fact I ran across many drownings in my research. It was quite a common cause of death.

I didn't see anything there to point to a serial drowner and perhaps the police haven't either.

[Sherlockmom]

And if this doesn't say it all.


"Last seen "highly intoxicated" by an elderly woman who said he mistakenly walked into her house near the Chippewa River."

[reb]

could it be that there are college student drownings in other cities that just don't make the news as much? perhaps this particular town has really jumped on this issue as media hype. and in other cities, students drown & the papers don't pick up on it. i know in our town we have several drunken college-age drownings every year- it's just a blip in the news & then it's gone.
or maybe in this town they happen to have more lax drinking laws (meaning, no program to monitor drunks in bars, or refuse to serve after intoxicated, etc.-- like we have in TX- it's called the TABC, you have to be certified to be a bartender.)

and i have no problem believing someone with a 4x legal amount alcohol limit can walk, run, or fall into the river. maybe there's some other reason why it's happening more in this town, but so far nothing points to a serial killer.

[Sherlockmom]

>could it be that there are college student drownings in other cities that just don't make the news as much?



If you read the Vance site it was students from other places. It occurred in MN, MI, IN too. It's happening more there because there is a large body of water within walking distance. MN has the river right near campus also and they have had drownings as well.

There were several things that caught my eye on that site. At least a few places where it contradicted itself and had made incorrect statements. And glaringly it appeared that alot of this speculation is from grieving parents that can't come to grip with the facts that they lost a child in such a pointless stupid way. I have alot of empathy for them.

There is alot of emotional thinking there and little logical thinking. They keep mentioning that these were good students or that they had a high GPA. What does that have to do with anything? Most smart people get really stupid when they drink too much. And at least when my kids were in HS the smart kids had just as much trouble with alcohol and drug abuse as the less scholarly did. In fact the jocks were among the worst of all of them.

The repeated statements by the parents about what a good student they were or how active or well liked etc. they are trying to reason through this in their minds and just cannot accept that they are gone and all because of a stupid decision to go on a drinking binge.

As I said, I can understand the parents but I have a real hard time figuring out why anyone else would fall behind a theory like that with absolutely no evidence whatsoever other than their "gut feeling". Gut feelings are all well and good for a starting place but eventually you have to come up with some cold hard facts to support your theory. Otherwise, you have to change your theory.

Some people see a conspiracy theory behind every rock. The government and police are always in cahoots against the people and someone is always out to get them. We sometimes call these people the "glass half empty" type.

[Ang50]

And if this doesn't say it all.


"Last seen "highly intoxicated" by an elderly woman who said he mistakenly walked into her house near the Chippewa River."
This was not Luke - this was Michael Noll, a UW-Eau Claire student who drowned in the Chippewa.

My point with the falling in is that there are plenty of other bodies of water, with drunk students and bars closer to the water, yet drunk people don't fall in. What is it about the Mississippi that is such a draw to make drunk men go 2 blocks, cross a park and then just fall in?

Yes, I've been to Third Street, been drunk on Third Street, stayed at the Radisson overlooking Riverside Park, jogged in Riverside Park and been out quite late in Riverside Park. The popular bars, and the ones mentioned in connection with Luke, are not on the water. There's one near the water - Piggy's or Hogs - but it's a townie bar, not for students. All others require a walk of at least 3 or more blocks to get to the river.

[Sherlockmom]

>This was not Luke - this was Michael Noll, a UW-Eau Claire student who drowned in the Chippewa.<


I know but I quoted it because it illustrated how disorientated one can be when that intoxicated. The blood alcohol levels in many of these cases was so high that they were almost to the point where a human being loses consciousness. Which could explain why they were unable to save themselves.

>>My point with the falling in is that there are plenty of other bodies of water, with drunk students and bars closer to the water, yet drunk people don't fall in. What is it about the Mississippi that is such a draw to make drunk men go 2 blocks, cross a park and then just fall in? <<

It wasn't just the Mississippi that people are falling in. As I mentioned there were other bodies of water, rivers, creeks, lakes that intoxicated males were found drowned. It happens all over. In WI in the past few years there have been several cases of bodies being found on RR tracks. Investigation led to the conclusion that these people too were very drunk. What attracted them to walk to a RR track and lie down? Who knows? They are drunk. You are looking for logical thinking processes from an intoxicated person. They most likely think they are on their way home and going in the wrong direction.

[Ang50]

I don't know what the police know, so I can't say as easily where I would start an investigation.

However, I will tell you that there are some prevailing rumors that I would investigate. Although I recognize up front that in writing them, all I do is set myself up for everyone to criticize... but in the interest of discussion...

1. A bartender is involved. Everyone goes to the same bars - Coconut Joe's, the Library, Brothers. GBH is slipped into a drink, and the bartender watches at bar time for the victim.

2. A cop is involved. Offers the intoxicated a ride home, or says that he's going to detox.

3. The clothing issue. It's confirmed that Dion's hat was neatly placed on a post near the river. There's rumors about Luke's clothes being folded neatly. It does not fit with falling in - and cannot be summarily dismissed.

4. There is another site where a self proclaimed family friend has stated that Luke is on video at a fast food restaurant at 2:34am and is clearly not stumbling, drunk, etc. Also, same friend states that Luke was seen by numerous eyewitnesses after bar time heading towards his home, in the opposite direction of the river.

5. I would re-interview every person in the park that night. There were patrols going on until after 3:30am, and the police just said that Luke must have gone in the river after. So what was he doing in between for 1 1/2 hours? Presumably he'd be wandering around - but then why didn't anyone see him?

6. Then the usual suspects - homeless, gang initiation, etc.

7. I've done some reading on drowning as well. Drowning is often the default diagnosis when a victim is found in water. Occasionally trauma to the body is dismissed as coming after death and not before. So "no foul play" does not actually mean no injury was found on the body. Water in the lungs should be tested for diatoms. "Dry" drowning may account for lack of water in lungs, esp. if vic was intoxicated. However, it may also indicate that victim died prior to being placed in the water. (Source: Forensic Examiner Magazine - Fall 06)

I'm willing to believe drunkenness as a theory too. But all of them require some fairly large assumptions, and if you knew the geography, the patterns, the culture, it just doesn't add up.

[Sherlockmom]

>Although I recognize up front that in writing them, all I do is set myself up for everyone to criticize... but in the interest of discussion...<


Well I would call it more of debating or hashing it out. It is an interesting case.

>>1. A bartender is involved. Everyone goes to the same bars - Coconut Joe's, the Library, Brothers. GBH is slipped into a drink, and the bartender watches at bar time for the victim. <<

Wouldn't GBH be detected during the autopsy? They haven't found evidence of any drug but the alcohol blood levels have come back very high in all of these victims. But your thought about a bartender as a suspect I think is a good one and I would look into that as well. Perhaps someone who selects his victims because of their intoxication and follows them? Profilers however have said that this type of crime would not fit any profile of a serial killer that they are aware of. But I did think of someone who perhaps lost a family member to a drunk driver and is taking revenge. As there was no sign of assault on the body either sexual or otherwise I would opt for a revenge motive.

>>2. A cop is involved. Offers the intoxicated a ride home, or says that he's going to detox. <<

Now, now. We know how you feel about the cops :( My comments would be that there would have been signs of some type of struggle. And what satisfaction is the cop as a serial killer getting out of this crime? And what cop stays with a dept. for over 20 years? Not many.

>>3. The clothing issue. It's confirmed that Dion's hat was neatly placed on a post near the river. There's rumors about Luke's clothes being folded neatly. It does not fit with falling in - and cannot be summarily dismissed.<<

Someone may have found the hat on the ground, picked it up and put it on the post. I'd follow up on the clothing rumor but again, it's a rumor. I don't recall did the reports say the body was found nude? None of the others were found nude as far as I know. DOes a murderer remove the clothes before shoving someone in the river? How would they accomplish this without a struggle. And you'd want to get out of there as fast as possible afterwards so as not to have someone see you. Not sit around folding clothes. You are in the open here.

>>4. There is another site where a self proclaimed family friend has stated that Luke is on video at a fast food restaurant at 2:34am and is clearly not stumbling, drunk, etc. Also, same friend states that Luke was seen by numerous eyewitnesses after bar time heading towards his home, in the opposite direction of the river. <<

I would certainly interview these people and review the video but blood alcohol readings don't lie. But as yet, this is the strongest evidence that supports your theory, esp. the eyewitnesses that saw him heading in the opposite direction.

>>5. I would re-interview every person in the park that night. There were patrols going on until after 3:30am, and the police just said that Luke must have gone in the river after. So what was he doing in between for 1 1/2 hours? Presumably he'd be wandering around - but then why didn't anyone see him? <<

I don't know how many people were out at that time of night but perhaps he was passed out under a bush or something.

>>6. Then the usual suspects - homeless, gang initiation, etc. <<

Yep.

>>7. I've done some reading on drowning as well. Drowning is often the default diagnosis when a victim is found in water. Occasionally trauma to the body is dismissed as coming after death and not before. So "no foul play" does not actually mean no injury was found on the body. Water in the lungs should be tested for diatoms. "Dry" drowning may account for lack of water in lungs, esp. if vic was intoxicated. However, it may also indicate that victim died prior to being placed in the water. (Source: Forensic Examiner Magazine - Fall 06)<<

They can tell whether the water entered the lungs before or after death and also any injuries as well. It's not difficult for them to know if an injury was either prior to death or after. They can even analyze the fluid in the lungs and see if it was from the same body of water in which they were found.

>>I'm willing to believe drunkenness as a theory too. But all of them require some fairly large assumptions, and if you knew the geography, the patterns, the culture, it just doesn't add up.<<

Well I am certainly aware of the culture as I live in WI. This college campus is a huge party orientated campus and well known for it's drinking. Alot of kids choose this campus so they can party. Any assumptions made were made after reading the evidence and lack thereof of anything solid that pointed to foul play.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoints with me. It made me think and I hope my ideas made you think too!! It was fun :)

[Ang50]

Thanks for playing - this is interesting to get your comments. Here's some of my followup thoughts...

>Wouldn't GBH be detected during the autopsy?<
According to what I have read, GBH is not detectable after a certain time, or is often not tested for. However, toxicology will be in in 6 weeks, and I think that the family was fairly proactive and would have requested some extra tests.

>>My comments would be that there would have been signs of some type of struggle. And what satisfaction is the cop as a serial killer getting out of this crime? And what cop stays with a dept. for over 20 years? Not many.<<

I expected much more of a tongue lashing from you over this theory. :) Here's why I think it's somewhat viable - Dion's friends said they were all standing in line for the drunk bus and then when they turned around he was just gone. Similar stories in other drownings. Just gone. IMHO, there's two types of people that could draw someone out of a line quickly and without comment. 1 - a cop and 2 - a woman, esp. one in need. However, a female serial killer is statistically so unlikely...

>>Someone may have found the hat on the ground, picked it up and put it on the post. <
Stuff magazine reported that this was the police explanation. But the jogger that found the hat said they did not move anything - just reported it. Of course, someone could have come along prior to that.

> don't recall did the reports say the body was found nude? None of the others were found nude as far as I know.<
No reports with the clothing, you're right. There was a UW-Eau Claire man whose clothes were also found folded in the nearby park.

>DOes a murderer remove the clothes before shoving someone in the river? How would they accomplish this without a struggle. And you'd want to get out of there as fast as possible afterwards so as not to have someone see you. Not sit around folding clothes. You are in the open here.<

Agreed. If rumor is true, I would be looking at sexual motives. That's all I could think of. If the killer is a woman, this would fit.

>>I would certainly interview these people and review the video but blood alcohol readings don't lie. <

BAC doesn't lie, but what it may mean is that Luke found another place to drink after bar time, or was forced to have more alcohol, or given GHB and more alcohol. If he was not stumbling and slurring on the video, then there's no way he could be .34. Certainly college kids have more tolerance than average people, but he would still be showing severe effects at that BAC.

>>So what was he doing in between for 1 1/2 hours? Presumably he'd be wandering around - but then why didn't anyone see him? <<

>I don't know how many people were out at that time of night but perhaps he was passed out under a bush or something.<

Maybe. I guess again that when you blame alcohol so quickly, you deter people from coming forward who might have seen him after bar time. You stifle your leads. There had to have been an interval of time between bar time and the falling in. How long is the question...

>>They can tell whether the water entered the lungs before or after death and also any injuries as well. It's not difficult for them to know if an injury was either prior to death or after. They can even analyze the fluid in the lungs and see if it was from the same body of water in which they were found. <<

If you want, google for "Forensic Examiner" and read the Fall 06 article. When a victim is found in the Mississippi, any body trauma can be attributable to injury from the fall, boats, rocks, etc. The article states it can sometimes be hard to tell if it's a before or after injury. Diatoms are what they use to determine same body of water (there are some bathtub serial killer theories floating around, but this would clear them up) The point of the article is that drowning as a cause of death is not as accurate as say a gunshot as cause. And even if drowning is the cause, the trauma is not certain.

For instance - what injuries would be sustained if someone had held Luke's head under the water? Possibly none, possibly some marks from rocks, sand, etc. Same marks could have been sustained once Luke was in the water.

[lostfaith]

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2006/10/31/510673.html


I know some dont agree, but I am glad they are at least looking into this.

[cheko1]

Thanks for the update lostfaith.......

Its about time someone goes the extra step it takes to find out what is going on. To many strange deaths of college kids. Makes no sense with as many that they've found.

[Sherlockmom]

>Its about time someone goes the extra step it takes to find out what is going on. To many strange deaths of college kids. Makes no sense with as many that they've found.<



They probably have had it and hope that this will finally shut people up about it. Do you think it will work? Good thing we have all that extra taxpayer money sitting around doing nothing just for foolishness like this.

[Ang50]

I don't consider extra investigation into the deaths of college age men foolishness. I think it's warranted, especially since it is such a statistical anomaly.

I'm certain happier to contribute my tax dollars for the FBI to profile these cases, then say to continue to pay the salaries of fired Milwaukee police officers after they'd been convicted of raping women or covering up their own crimes ala Frank Jude.

The article's spin is very interesting, too. The official story looks like the police spontaneously asked for the review, which I also find hard to believe considering Chief Kondracki's dismissive attitude. However, I think the Homan's connections and U.S. Marshal Kruiziki, plus further Waukesha County outcry got the ball moving.

[cappuccina]

...there is a lot of water around LaCrosse, as people have already said...combine this with hilly terrain, tons and tons of bars, and some still very isolated areas, and you have the potential for drowning cases, especially among college students, for whom this is the first time on their own....I went to the University of WI in Madison, and we also had drownings in Lake Mendota....Not only were some kids drunk, some were NOT drunk, but DID NOT KNOW HOW TO SWIM, or became disorented after deciding to swim off of a rowboat at night. That's why I don't think there is any "mystery" here...

However, I do think that UW-LAX should put out bulletins to students reminding them of the dangers of water, offering more visible swimmer's/boater's safety classes....That's what UW did after a couple of drownings happened close together....

And, for God's sake, parents, make sure your kids know how to swim....Not just the strokes, but lifesaving things too, like learning the "survival float", etc. Ideally, kids should know how to swim (in a rudimentary way) by Kindergarten, but if your kid doesn;t know how to swim, and about water safety by high school, then do something about it! There was a real problem at UW-Madison with kids who had NEVER been around any water, or who had only experienced pools. One kid died after he panicked and sunk because he got caught in some lake weeds, which he could have easily gotten out of if he had kept a level head...Obviously alcohol does not help this problem...

Sorry, but I just don't think there's a mystery here...

[CyberLaw]

How about also:

The Bars have very cheap booze and cater to college kids. To binge drink, to be very drunk on little money.

When there is demand there is supply. The kids are the demand and the bars are the supply. Awareness is the key, kids often do not appreciate that their risky behavior is a) risky b) dangerous and c) can end their lives.

When a kid has a BAL of above .08 or more, no amount of "swimming lessons" are going to help, as they would be overcome with a)booze and b) the temperature of the water which can over come even a sober person quickly.

For analysis you would have to compare the number of kids over the years that have attended the college, who go out and binge drink and compare that to the number of kids of have died due to "falling" in the lake.

You just cannot say 9 men have died...you have to say 9 men out of 250,000 students who have attended this college since 1986. For example........

I don't see a mystery here, irresponsible behavior, bravado of youth, jock and macho college culture, binge drinking, away from home, no parental restriction or Mommy and Daddy seeing you come home drunk and misadventure.

All of those factors add up to a situation that could easily lead to the death of a young person.

Booze is a known to be a problem in a lot of Colleges, it is pervasive, and often leads to death without drowning.

Education is the key.....and preventative measure to "have lights in the park or near the water that will "warn" a person when they are close to the water, then the lights may, startle them and they can see how close they are to the water. Falling in the water is not going to "suddenly" sober a person up, they are still drunk, but in a position that they cannot help themselves.

As long as cheap booze is available, binge drinking is not "frowned" upon, there is still going to be a problem.

Heck I almost walked into a lake and I was not even drinking. I just could not see where the land ended and the water started.

It is not like a person has better judgement and co-ordination when they are drunk

[eve]

I am reading this with interest partially because I have a son at UW - Madison (called the number "one" party school in the nation last year). The kids do their share of drinking, that's for sure, but most are quite aware of safety issues, at least the kids I talk with, when I visit. For instance, my son and his housemates have SOP check-in with each other each night, etc., and really do not walk alone at night, esp. when partying. They do know predators are out there, whether they are boys or girls.

I am glad to say my own kids are water-savvy and being able to swim is very important for anyone. Still, if a kid is dead drunk...who knows what can happen? Lakes and rivers are hazardous and kids don't always use common sense or prepare for problems. A few years ago a local kid drowned retrieving a fishing lure - he got tangled up in the weeds and the more he struggled the worse it got. When my kids fish they always keep a leatherman tool on their belts to cut weeds if necessary and they know not to bother with lost lures - not worth it.

It occurs to me that many campuses with which I am familiar are virtually built around water, or along rivers. I went to the Univ. of Iowa - the river divides the campus. The Univ. of Mn. is along the Mississippi, St. Cloud State Univ. is also (there was a drowning last year - a student who had been bar-hopping ended up being found drowned in the river).

Drinking and water have never been a good combination, add foul play and it's even worse.

If there are clues that make these deaths stand out from the usual accidents, I hope they follow up.

Eve

[Sherlockmom]

>I'm certain happier to contribute my tax dollars for the FBI to profile these cases, then say to continue to pay the salaries of fired Milwaukee police officers after they'd been convicted of raping women or covering up their own crimes ala Frank Jude.<


Then contribute your own money and stop supporting actions that steal it out of my pocket. I'm NOT happy to contribute to this type of nonsense any more than I'm happy to contribute to pay salaries of fired police officers or teachers who have molested their students or politicians who abuse their office etc. And as an aside, what does fired Milw. police officers have to do with this case? We're talking about spending tax payer money to fund an FBI lookie look on a case that has no evidence to provide to them that a crime has been committed. This is not a wise use of taxpayer dollars.

These cases have been looked over again and again by the local LE and NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE pointing to a crime has been unearthed. While the statistics of it may be interesting I do not find them surprising considering that the river there is particularly dangerous and the amount of binge drinking that goes on there. I'm surprised more of them don't drown.

[CyberLaw]

Apparently drinking for most inhabitants in this city is the norm, not the exception.

Other people who have had "excessive" levels of booze in their systems have been found in the water also.

A lot of students "drink" to excess before they go to the bars, cheaper that way. I did a search of BAL for a man who is 180 lbs.

Well if he did drink say for example: I5 drinks in say two hours his BAL would still be .12. That is far above legally drunk. Add to that "binge" drinking at a bar for a few or a couple of hours and the BAL rises quite quickly.

One man that they did pull out of the lake had a BAL of .34 but "apparently" he was not staggering or appearing drunk. I find that hard to believe.

Another person had a BAL of .27.

Now if stone cold sober students were being pulled from the lake, I would question why. But we all know that booxze impairs the the minds ability to appreciate the consequences of your action.

Apparently Ice Cream places want to sell booze, there is a statute of a beer person, students are welcomed with free drinks. The "Golden Beer Keg" at Octoberfest.

So there has to be a cultural shift, I guess people would rather believe a "serial killer" is on the loose then admit that their past time of drinking is the problem and that it will continue to be a problem.

Booze is a "contributing" factor is all of the deaths, that is the pattern.

[Sherlockmom]

>So there has to be a cultural shift, I guess people would rather believe a "serial killer" is on the loose then admit that their past time of drinking is the problem and that it will continue to be a problem.<


I agree with you. Couple that with a young person's lack of the reality that life is short and they are not invincible and you have a recipe for disaster.

I think another reason is that the families of these young men are having a difficult time coming to terms with the fact that the loss of life here was for a completely stupid and preventable reason. I feel for them. I really do and I think it is a shame that an evening of youthful stupidity resulted in death for these people but I don't think that the taxpayers should have to foot the bill for a pointless FBI examination of the case so that the bereaved families can delay facing the truth a little while longer. If there was any evidence to convince me that there was good reason for further investigation I would be all for it but I just do not see it anywhere. And this does happen on other campuses in the country. It's not just happening here.

I also do not believe that attacking the local LE because they haven't been able to find a scapegoat to hang for these accidents is going to solve anything either. Instead of attacking the real reason for these accidents people are looking to point the finger at anyone instead of looking in the mirror.

Alot of money is made off of the selling of alcohol to college kids in this town. But for some reason the tavern owners are not receiving quite the disdain that the evil police are.

Bartenders have the legal right and the moral responsibility to deny service to anyone that they think has had too much to drink.

And people have to learn that the responsibility for stupid behavior belongs with the person who is being stupid. Spending money on a wild goose chase so that some people can feel like something is being done isn't going to save any future lives. Parents need to talk to their kids seriously before they go away to school. It seems to be too much freedom for some of these kids to handle.

[Ang50]

From either perspective (except SherlockMom's tax $$) it is a good thing for the FBI to look at. First, they don't have a vested interest as LAX PD does. People will accept their verdict one way or another. Additionally, if another student does fall in, public outcry will be lessened (unless of course it is a serial killer that has not been caught...) and the PD will not be blamed.

Kondracki made his conclusion about Luke Homan and how he died before Luke was even found. That's not an open-minded investigation - he started from his conclusion and worked backwards to support it. The FBI will start with an open mind and look for a conclusion.

[Sherlockmom]

Do not be confused about what the FBI is doing with this case. All they are doing is reviewing the evidence presented to them by the LAX PD. They are not launching their own investigation into the case.

"MADISON, Wis. - The FBI said Tuesday it will review evidence in the drowning deaths of eight young men in La Crosse-area rivers over the past nine years."

But the last sentence of the article said this:

"Krieg said the FBI has not mounted its own investigation into the drownings."

The FBI is only going to be looking at the same thing that the PD looked at. The PD asked for suggestions as to something they may not have seen in that evidence or perhaps a new direction to pursue. Hardly something they would do if they were trying to cover something up, be incompetent or have some vested interest in not being proved wrong.

I'm sure that they were pressured into doing this hoping to put an end to the belief of a serial killer on the loose but I'm sure that the reason they hadn't done so up to now is because they were confident that they had done all they could do and there just wasn't anything there. Isn't that what a good police force does? Should we have the FBI review every unsolved case or review a case every time someone has a conspiracy theory?

[lostfaith]

Do not be confused about what the FBI is doing with this case. All they are doing is reviewing the evidence presented to them by the LAX PD. They are not launching their own investigation into the case.

"MADISON, Wis. - The FBI said Tuesday it will review evidence in the drowning deaths of eight young men in La Crosse-area rivers over the past nine years."

But the last sentence of the article said this:

"Krieg said the FBI has not mounted its own investigation into the drownings."

The FBI is only going to be looking at the same thing that the PD looked at. The PD asked for suggestions as to something they may not have seen in that evidence or perhaps a new direction to pursue. Hardly something they would do if they were trying to cover something up, be incompetent or have some vested interest in not being proved wrong.

I'm sure that they were pressured into doing this hoping to put an end to the belief of a serial killer on the loose but I'm sure that the reason they hadn't done so up to now is because they were confident that they had done all they could do and there just wasn't anything there. Isn't that what a good police force does? Should we have the FBI review every unsolved case or review a case every time someone has a conspiracy theory?



Sorry, Sherlock, ya know I luv' ya, and I love my nephew, who I think is the "bestest" most honest, policeman in the whole world, but I do not carry the same blind faith for all the rest. For every good cop there is a bad, lazy one out there. Sorry, that is just they way I feel, just like with teachers, preachers or whatever. I am not saying there is a coverup or a conspiracy here, maybe just laziness. Maybe it really is as it seems, drunkeness, which is not far fetched at all. I just dont see that it is a bad thing to take another look. They have used my tax dollars for much worse.

Now...if they would rather use that money to give people in wisconsin who dont have health insurance some health insurance, I would be all for that. :blowkiss:

[CyberLaw]

You know what the problem is going to be:

The FBI is only going to review the evidence. They will not in essesence come up with anything new, I put money on that. BUT, people will say: Well the local PD did not hand over all of the evidence, a cops is involved, they with held evidence, the FBI could only rely on the PD evidence put forth. Therefore the FBI did not have all of the evidence, the local PD is "covering up" or they do not want to be "shown" up by the Feds.

The ultimate: The FBI did not do their own investigation, if they did, they would have found the "serial killer" so it is the fault of the PD and the FBI.

I also feel for the parents big time, I do. Their wonderful, kids who have their whole life ahead of them, who are in a higher learning facility, who love their families and their families love them, are gone because of a combination of booze, macho bravado, youth and inexperience.

No one ever expects it will happen to them and it is very hard for a parent to accept the "tragic" facts, it is easier to 'deny" that their child had any responsibility in their own death, it is sooo much easier not to face reality and blame an "unknown" person and to scapegoat the local PD.

More comfortable to "face fiction" then the "pain" of facts.

[lostfaith]

You know what the problem is going to be:

The FBI is only going to review the evidence. They will not in essesence come up with anything new, I put money on that. BUT, people will say: Well the local PD did not hand over all of the evidence, a cops is involved, they with held evidence, the FBI could only rely on the PD evidence put forth. Therefore the FBI did not have all of the evidence, the local PD is "covering up" or they do not want to be "shown" up by the Feds.

The ultimate: The FBI did not do their own investigation, if they did, they would have found the "serial killer" so it is the fault of the PD and the FBI.

I also feel for the parents big time, I do. Their wonderful, kids who have their whole life ahead of them, who are in a higher learning facility, who love their families and their families love them, are gone because of a combination of booze, macho bravado, youth and inexperience.

No one ever expects it will happen to them and it is very hard for a parent to accept the "tragic" facts, it is easier to 'deny" that their child had any responsibility in their own death, it is sooo much easier not to face reality and blame an "unknown" person and to scapegoat the local PD.

More comfortable to "face fiction" then the "pain" of facts.


well, it is not ONLY the parents of these children who are questioning. So, while what you say makes sense in relation to the parents of these kids, there are others who are questioning also. I just dont think it is gonna hurt to check it out a little further. I dont question kids who kill themselves in drunk driving accidents, but these drownings, to me, are wierd. I admit, there may be nothing to it, but what is the harm in taking another look?

[Sherlockmom]

>For every good cop there is a bad, lazy one out there. Sorry, that is just they way I feel, just like with teachers, preachers or whatever.<


Well it just seems that way sometimes because the good ones don't get the press that the bad ones do. But it is the truth that you will find immorality in all occupations but it shouldn't reflect on ALL teachers, ALL cops or ALL priests. You will find scumbag plumbers too LOL!! I'd like to think that corruption, immorality and sin doesn't discriminate. It's an equal opportunity employer. If I truly believed that it was split 50/50 I'd be pretty depressed. I don't think that is the case.

I think we are more horrified when it is a person to whom we have put our trust like a police officer or a teacher. I think we expect more of them than a plumber and we should. However the bad ones aren't always weeded out and detected until they are caught abusing their power. No one should have blind faith in any human being as we are all fallible. As has been said before, trust but verify. Trust but keep an eye open for signs that your trust may be misplaced.

[Sherlockmom]

>I admit, there may be nothing to it, but what is the harm in taking another look?

Because as someone else said before me. I don't think that it will satisfy these people. I don't think some of these people can emotionally handle the reality of the truth. They HAVE to have some kind of bogey man out there to blame. I think that it will be a waste of money and there will be all kinds of whacko accusations as to why the "truth" wasn't found.

There are alot of cold cases out there and unsolved crimes that LE is sure a crime was committed but haven't been able to solve. The evidence clearly points to foul play. Wouldn't the money and resources be better spent on cases where we KNOW a crime was committed? This is diverting resources away from real crimes where we KNOW the death was not accidental or from natural causes. If we had unlimited resources I wouldn't see the harm either but the truth is that we do not. I think we need to use some common sense and discretion before we call in the FBI to help with cases that have no evidence to point to a crime being committed.

There are thousands of people who have gone missing, some unidentified bodies and unsolved crimes that these resources would be better spent on IMO.

It will be interesting to hear the results of this. But I don't think I'll be surprised.

[CyberLaw]

There is and has not been to date any evidence of any crime, even the FBI has admitted that this is not nor will be a "criminaL" investigation. The "motive" of this, is that the local PD wants to make sure as in 100% sure that they did not miss anything. So they are asking for another "set" of fresh eyes.

Gossip and rumors are not facts.

The fact is: Everyone of these men had double digit BAL in their blood. No one forced booze down their throats. There was no indication ever that there was any "bruising" or physical marks on their bodies. All died of drowning. All had been binge drinking.

The people of this town will not accept anything except a "serial" murderer is in their midst, all the while not accepting the fact that the common conduct here is booze.

By the way: Serial killers like to get "up close" and personal with their victims. Most want to cause the most pain. That is their high, so this does not fit the profile of a serial killer.

Nothing new is going to show up, but I do hope, really I do, that even if one student "thinks" twice about binge drinking, they may hopefully use common sense as in: Well maybe I should not "get so drunk" with a double digit BAL, that I might fall into the Lake and die. But "reflective" forethought is not "as common" among people who are young, like to party and do not think that it can happen to them

Occam razor applies here..........All things being equal, the simpliest solution tends to be the best one. All things unfortunately are not equal, as there again is no "basis" for a serial killer.

So far I have yet to see any evidence of a) a crime being committed b)evidence of a crime c)a serial killer d) a person who murders college students or e) any differences in all of the cases.

You have to use logic and reasoning to look at all of the factors........you just cannot "add" in factors" that have no basis in evidence and fact. You would be "adding" fiction that has no basis in reality.

The Police know this, the FBI knows this, now it is up to the citizens of this town to "stop the" the mob mentality and do something about this that is a problem and it will be a problem until it is adressed and preventative measure or means are in place. The problem is not going to be addressed, no means are going to be taken as long as "this unknown" stranger is in the midst. Blaming some one else, deflects all personal responsibility, individually and as a town.

[Sherlockmom]

>The Police know this, the FBI knows this, now it is up to the citizens of this town to "stop the" the mob mentality and do something about this that is a problem and it will be a problem until it is adressed and preventative measure or means are in place. The problem is not going to be addressed, no means are going to be taken as long as "this unknown" stranger is in the midst. Blaming some one else, deflects all personal responsibility, individually and as a town.<


:clap:

[Ang50]

[QUOTE=Sherlockmom]>There are alot of cold cases out there and unsolved crimes that LE is sure a crime was committed but haven't been able to solve. The evidence clearly points to foul play. Wouldn't the money and resources be better spent on cases where we KNOW a crime was committed? This is diverting resources away from real crimes where we KNOW the death was not accidental or from natural causes. If we had unlimited resources I wouldn't see the harm either but the truth is that we do not. I think we need to use some common sense and discretion before we call in the FBI to help with cases that have no evidence to point to a crime being committed.
[QUOTE]

This is a good point. However, like any other crimes/missing people/etc. these are relatively wealthy, well-known, well-liked, white normal college boys. Possible criminal activity against them is more likely to be investigated and raise further public outcry then say, the young black men murdered on Milwaukee's streets every day - and those crimes remaining unsolved. And I have to say - I'm guilty of that too - my son, brother, etc. are more like the La Crosse boys than the Milwaukee ones, so I am more concerned about LaX.

Regardless, the FBI's review will be helpful b/c they deal with nationwide, wide-ranging crimes. LaX PD probably investigates less than 20 suspicious deaths a year. The exposure and experience, education level, etc. even when looking at static, reported evidence, is going to make the FBI's report much more credible.

I'll of course believe the FBI's outcome until the next boy drowns. At which point I'm likely to become suspicious again. But at least I, and the rest of the public, won't be able to claim that the LaX PD isn't responsive.

[Sherlockmom]

>This is a good point. However, like any other crimes/missing people/etc. these are relatively wealthy, well-known, well-liked, white normal college boys. Possible criminal activity against them is more likely to be investigated and raise further public outcry then say, the young black men murdered on Milwaukee's streets every day - and those crimes remaining unsolved. <


How do you know these boy's family's financial situations? I would think that it would be the lower income families that would send their kids to college in LaCrosse. If they were relatively wealthy, believe me, most of them would be going to private schools. And well-known? It's not like these boys were famous or anything. What they were is just the average American college boy. That is probably what catches the media and public attention not the color of their skin or their income levels. It's the fact that these were average all-American boys and if it could happen to them it could happen to your child too. This scares people because it hits really close to home and I think that is why it has so much attention paid to it. I don't even know if the victims were all white but are you saying that no one would question these accidents if all other things equal, they were black?

I do not agree that possible criminal activity is more likely to be investigated if someone is white. As for the young black men murdered on Milwaukee's streets every day I do not believe those are ignored. First of all, although even one shooting is one too many it's not happening every day. And secondly, a good portion of those shootings are involving young black men who are either involved in gang, drugs or other illegal activity. While their murder is still murder and a senseless waste of life, it is more easily explained as a consequence of their lifestyle than let us say someone murdered by a serial killer. The media leaves out alot of details about some of these cases. I don't know if it is on purpose or not but I know that if all of the details were known about some of the shooting victims they probably wouldn't garner much public sympathy.

Remember that in Milwaukee right now there is a serious shortage of police officers. Most officers are putting in alot of overtime. You only have so many man hours. Is it too suprising to find that priorities are given to cases? It's like triage in an emergency room. I do not believe that skin color or income is used to put priorities on cases. All of them have to be investigated but not all of them can be investigated at once.

Many of these cases are already solved and you probably do not hear about it when the perpetrators are arrested. I think they arrested someone in the shooting of the teenage girl a few weeks ago. It was pretty apparant what happened in that case. A young girl sitting out on her front porch late at night while a gang fight is going on in front of her home. I don't think they suspected a serial killer in that case. It was clear what happened. There were witnesses and the police were pretty sure they knew who did it. They shortly arrested a suspect.

And despite that fact, a woman running for the DA's office in Milwaukee speaking at a NAACP forum suggested that a cop may have shot the girl. If someone running for the DA position in the city of MILW was so uninformed and biased with her opinions how can we expect the average citizens of the city to be informed about which cases are being pursued and which are not. It works for the media and some running for office to exploit racial issues and be divisive in order to stir up public emotion and brainwash people into thinking that one's skin color denotes how much attention the police will pay to crimes committed against you. If the news media is the only place people can get their perceptions about our criminal justice system it is no wonder that their viewpoints are so skewed and inaccurate and suspicious. This is mostly media-fueled and I believe that if the media did it's job ethically and fairly and just reported the news the public would be less suspicious and paranoid.


I well remember how the community came out strongly and got heavily involved in the two black children that went missing almost a year ago and were found drown. No one ignored it because they were black. The police also put alot of hours into the Alexis Patterson child case. And there was a public outcry when the good samaritan was shot during an attempted burglary some months ago and I believe that victim was black too.

I think the media is more guilty of picking and choosing the cases that they cover extensively. The media gives people certain perceptions. I know there are lots of cases the media drops the ball on and that is why I come to WB.

[Ang50]

>This is a good point. However, like any other crimes/missing people/etc. these are relatively wealthy, well-known, well-liked, white normal college boys. Possible criminal activity against them is more likely to be investigated and raise further public outcry then say, the young black men murdered on Milwaukee's streets every day - and those crimes remaining unsolved. <

>How do you know these boy's family's financial situations? I would think that it would be the lower income families that would send their kids to college in LaCrosse. If they were relatively wealthy, believe me, most of them would be going to private schools. And well-known? It's not like these boys were famous or anything. What they were is just the average American college boy. That is probably what catches the media and public attention not the color of their skin or their income levels. It's the fact that these were average all-American boys and if it could happen to them it could happen to your child too. This scares people because it hits really close to home and I think that is why it has so much attention paid to it. I don't even know if the victims were all white but are you saying that no one would question these accidents if all other things equal, they were black?< I know Luke's and Jared's financial situations because I know their towns, their schools, and know of the families. Jared was a buddy of my brother. Additionally, Waukesha County is the second-wealthiest county in the US, and Brookfield East and Arrowhead are the two wealthiest high schools in Waukesha County. They were well-known because they were both college athletes, and had been standout high school athletes as well. It's safe to say "relatively wealthy and well-known" vs. the anonymous african-american boy in Milwaukee that is shot on the street.

Luke's and Jared's family have more access to keep this story going. And the serial killer angle is simply more interesting than a gang shooting. If all other things were equal, except black victims, (all the victims have been white) I couldn't say that it would get the same attention. However, if the black young men were well-known athletes, from these wealthy communities, and their families had access like Luke's and Jared's, then yes, I would say that it would be as likely to get investigated. Unfortunately, African-Americans are less likely to be wealthy and well-connected, so the scenario is not easily translatable.

As far as Milwaukee, it is interesting that the white student delivery driver's murder was solved very quickly, and of course, was widely reported. Most murders this year have not gotten the attention, and I haven't heard about their resolution. Lifestyle may be part of it, skin color and social status is a big player too.

[packerdog]

I know Luke's and Jared's financial situations because I know their towns, their schools, and know of the families. Jared was a buddy of my brother. Additionally, Waukesha County is the second-wealthiest county in the US, and Brookfield East and Arrowhead are the two wealthiest high schools in Waukesha County. They were well-known because they were both college athletes, and had been standout high school athletes as well. It's safe to say "relatively wealthy and well-known" vs. the anonymous african-american boy in Milwaukee that is shot on the street.

Luke's and Jared's family have more access to keep this story going. And the serial killer angle is simply more interesting than a gang shooting. If all other things were equal, except black victims, (all the victims have been white) I couldn't say that it would get the same attention. However, if the black young men were well-known athletes, from these wealthy communities, and their families had access like Luke's and Jared's, then yes, I would say that it would be as likely to get investigated. Unfortunately, African-Americans are less likely to be wealthy and well-connected, so the scenario is not easily translatable.

As far as Milwaukee, it is interesting that the white student delivery driver's murder was solved very quickly, and of course, was widely reported. Most murders this year have not gotten the attention, and I haven't heard about their resolution. Lifestyle may be part of it, skin color and social status is a big player too.

I can vouch to that. I grew up in Brookfield and my sister still lives there to this day. Hartland is also very nice, where Arrowhead HS is.

[Sherlockmom]

>Additionally, Waukesha County is the second-wealthiest county in the US, and Brookfield East and Arrowhead are the two wealthiest high schools in Waukesha County. They were well-known because they were both college athletes, and had been standout high school athletes as well. It's safe to say "relatively wealthy and well-known" vs. the anonymous african-american boy in Milwaukee that is shot on the street. <


You seem to have alot of biases and pre-conceived notions. Not everyone who lives in those areas is wealthy. I lived in one of the richest counties in WI for years and I wasn't anywhere close to rich. And my husband and I and our children had fewer opportunities available to us because we WERE white.

I wonder about people who try to turn everything no matter what it is into a white versus black thing. Your viewpoints are about 25 years behind the times. Black people in general are not mostly poor and they are not being victimized. A large portion of them are educated, middle to upper middle class and recent statistics show that more than ever before are homeowners.

The only reason this case is getting so much attention is because a bunch of people will not accept the fact that getting skunk drunk and trying to walk home along a dangerous body of water can get you killed. It has nothing to do with being white or black. Maybe black college kids in LaCrosse aren't stupid enought to do that and maybe that's why it's only white kids drowning LOL!

[Ang50]

>Additionally, Waukesha County is the second-wealthiest county in the US, and Brookfield East and Arrowhead are the two wealthiest high schools in Waukesha County. They were well-known because they were both college athletes, and had been standout high school athletes as well. It's safe to say "relatively wealthy and well-known" vs. the anonymous african-american boy in Milwaukee that is shot on the street. <


You seem to have alot of biases and pre-conceived notions. Not everyone who lives in those areas is wealthy. I lived in one of the richest counties in WI for years and I wasn't anywhere close to rich. And my husband and I and our children had fewer opportunities available to us because we WERE white.

I wonder about people who try to turn everything no matter what it is into a white versus black thing. Your viewpoints are about 25 years behind the times. Black people in general are not mostly poor and they are not being victimized. A large portion of them are educated, middle to upper middle class and recent statistics show that more than ever before are homeowners.

The only reason this case is getting so much attention is because a bunch of people will not accept the fact that getting skunk drunk and trying to walk home along a dangerous body of water can get you killed. It has nothing to do with being white or black. Maybe black college kids in LaCrosse aren't stupid enought to do that and maybe that's why it's only white kids drowning LOL!Your selective editing excluded the part where I stated personal knowledge of both of those boy's families, in addition to my general knowledge of their towns and schools. Who has the bias here??

Quit making this personal - sometimes you have good points, but they get lost when you directly attack other posters.

[Shadow205]

The FBI will review the investigative work done by local police in the numerous drowning deaths in La Crosse.

more at the link http://www.wkbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=5614309&nav=menu239_1

Found more information at another link:

Nov 20, 2006 7:38 pm US/Central
Police: Jenkins Was Thrown From Bridge

Minneapolis University of Minnesota student Chris Jenkins died after he was thrown off a bridge in downtown Minneapolis four years ago, police said Monday, and they apologized for first suspecting his death was a suicide or accident.

A "suspect/witness" is in custody in another state on an unrelated charge, said Sgt. Pete Jackson, the lead homicide investigator on the case. Jackson said he also wants to talk to another eyewitness who's not in custody. He was deliberately vague on what their roles might be, but said they have pointed the finger at each other.

Jackson declined to say when any charges might be filed.

more at this link http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_324070118.html

[Shadow205]

I have not followed these cases so I don't know if this has been posted before

http://www.myspace.com/commonalities

[mssheila]

This news is pretty big. They're calling the drowning in Minneapolis/St Paul a "Homicide". Which makes the drownings in LaCrosse suspect. I'm glad that the investigators have contacted the FBI. Too many coincidences

[CyberLaw]

You cannot compare one case to the others, without knowing all of the facts and underlying motive in the Jenkins case.

It is akin to saying that a women was found in water in LA who is a victim of a homicide, and a victim was found in New York who fell in while she was very drunk, and saying because one is a homicide the other one is too.

There are a lot of facts in the Jenkins case that are unknown to the public, this young man was specifically targeted for what ever motive, reason, past actions.

Why don't we compare apples and oranges also and see if they are both fruits, and then convince someone that since they are fruit, they are both the same colour, taste, texture.

One case is in Minn. the other one is in Wisc. Oh of course they are both states in the midwest.

They have no relevance to each other.

[Shadow205]

I also find this statement very interesting:

The Jenkins case was one of several in the Midwest of college students and other young adults who disappeared in recent years, often after nights out that involved drinking. Some of them were found dead in rivers, and there's been speculation that there might be a link.

But Jackson said they had nothing to connect Jenkins' death with any of the others, though he didn't rule it out.

"Chris' death at this time is not linked to any of these other deaths, especially there's quite a few involving college students," Jackson said. "I have been contacted today quite a bit by other agencies from around the Midwest. We've had several deaths involving college students. But there's nothing at this time to connect Chris' death between the others."

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_324070118.html

[Ang50]

This news is pretty big. They're calling the drowning in Minneapolis/St Paul a "Homicide". Which makes the drownings in LaCrosse suspect. I'm glad that the investigators have contacted the FBI. Too many coincidencesHi MsSheila! I'm in Madison for classes today!!

This is huge - his family has sought justice for a long time. I wonder if the FBI La Crosse investigation spurred the eyewitnesses to come forward in the MN area.

[Ang50]

Feds rule no serial killer -

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/9288126.html

http://www.wkbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=6935111

However, no serial killer doesn't mean that some of the deaths weren't homicides - like Chris in MN.

See Vance Holmes site for more tracking on young Midwest men drowning -
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

[SeriouslySearching]

Bumping up!

[angela]

I guess I am in the minority on this subject. I have been reading alot about the drownings and I believe that there is something sinister going on here. There are cases that extend far from La Crosse. I found an article about a profiler who followed a man who waslked into a police station and claimed to be obsessed with drowning men between the ages of 16 and 30. Unbeliveably, it is a fetish. This article is very interesting:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

[Ang50]

I don't know that I believe this John Doe guy is the culprit, but I do believe that something is very, very, very wrong in La Crosse.

My opinion has changed slightly since a U.S. Marshal's son drowned in Iowa. The Marshal really influenced the feds to look into things closer and the feds did not substantiate a serial killer. But I do not believe simple binge drinking is at work either.

This is a very good collection of info on the topic as well. Holmes, V. (2005). Drowning in coincidence: Midwest student mystery. Retrieved May 8, 2006, from http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

[angela]

Ang,
I had read that article the other day. It is a good one. I just cant believe that all of these were accidents. Sure these men were all very intoxicated but unless I hear that they were all carrying divining rods on them, I just can't believe that many just fell in the water by accident. There are alot of men missing that have not been found..
Justin Gaines
Kyle Fleishman
Brian Shaffer are a few.

[fran]

I guess I am in the minority on this subject. I have been reading alot about the drownings and I believe that there is something sinister going on here. There are cases that extend far from La Crosse. I found an article about a profiler who followed a man who waslked into a police station and claimed to be obsessed with drowning men between the ages of 16 and 30. Unbeliveably, it is a fetish. This article is very interesting:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

A couple of years ago I had made a list by year and school. I agree with you, I too believe there is something sinister going on here. There are too many to be a coincidence, IMO.

JMHO
fran

[MCDRAW]

I think the feds may be wrong.

[eve]

This series of cases was being discussed here on a Mpls. radio station this a.m. with several tv newscasts being broadcast on it as well, one scheduled for for tonight at 10 pm on KSTP TV. It has always caught my interest, partially because I have a son in college at UW in Madison, WI. I am very intrigued by what I heard and feel these are all connected and that we will hear much more about them. The working theory apparently is that they are serial killings and that a group or network of some sort is responsible. There have been suspected homicide drownings in many states, WI, MN, IA, NY and more. In LaCrosse LE is rejecting that they are more than accidents but a group of detectives, led by one named Gannon (I think, I may be wrong) are pursuing these deaths across the U.S. on their own and plan to hang in there until they can get a prosecutor or the FBI to act. The reporter said they are keeping much info on the cases close to the vest, including the motive of this group for killing young men, but that there definitely IS a theory about the motive. She also said those investigating the murders think the killers are both brilliant and lucky and are getting more and more bold. They leave identical grafitti (smiley faces) at the site of the murders and also wrote a word at one site where a body was recovered (can't remember which state) and the word turned out to be the street name of another body recovery site in Dubuque, Iowa.

Eve

[SeriouslySearching]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s421846.shtml?v=1

Could there be a calculated, cross-country plot to kill young college men, including some in Minnesota? It seems a little hard to believe, but two New York detectives say, they can prove it.

[CyberLaw]

I do think when the FBI did their investigation, they did not come to the same conclusion.

I still do feel that these deaths maybe except for one are all accidental.

If these two detectives have so much evidence and "just know" that these deaths are not homicides, then who are the suspects, what "direct" evidence do they have.

I don't see much here that would change my mind.

[SuziQ]

There are three threads going now. I've sent a request to the mods for a merger or forum since some of the vics are missing, missing and found and one ruled a homicide.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63890

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63931

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43709

[SeriouslySearching]

I always thought the FBI was wrong about these young men walking into the river due to drinking. One thing that I noticed was the lack of summer "accidents". I don't know if it holds true with the other cases, but in WI they were during the school session.

I don't think this would have been released if the Detectives and Professor don't have plenty to substantiate their claim. They say they already know some of the players and I think the FBI will have to come to terms with them being totally wrong and admit their failure on these cases.

[eve]

I always thought the FBI was wrong about these young men walking into the river due to drinking. One thing that I noticed was the lack of summer "accidents". I don't know if it holds true with the other cases, but in WI they were during the school session.

I don't think this would have been released if the Detectives and Professor don't have plenty to substantiate their claim. They say they already know some of the players and I think the FBI will have to come to terms with them being totally wrong and admit their failure on these cases.

The reporter I heard said they do indeed have a lot of real evidence and in fact are almost prepared to move on an identified suspect/s in one of the cases. She said they are keeping much of the substantiation secret for that reason. I also think everyone was too quick to blame all these deaths on drinking. There were weird indicators that something else was going on but LE and other took the easier way out and blamed it on drinking.

I also requested the threads be merged.

Eve

[MistyM]

i always believed it was hokey.

[SeriouslySearching]

I am so happy and yet so angry. I want the families...ALL the families to learn what happened...with that I have to hold the anger that the Law Enforcement community gave them nothing. I am just so angry.

Tonight, I am so delighted that someone DID see it. We were not the only ones that were taking issue with those murders. THANK GOD~

[MistyM]

i'm kind of mad at the police, who, according to the news videos i looked at, aren't interested in the NY cops 'theories'.

[SeriouslySearching]

They messed up...they need to find what happened.

[SuziQ]

Hey SS, check your pm's thanks!

[SuziQ]

I've requested this thread be locked.

Please continue here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64034