who is this unidentified young girl? jumped/thrown from vehicle in AZ, 1999

[reb]

OK,, here's a new puzzle for you sleuthers to chew on:

(link deleted)

(includes photo)
Case Num: 99-0305
Found on: 1/27/1999
Age Range: 13-18
Gender: Female

Circumstances:
This girl either fell, jumped, or was pushed from a moving vehicle in Pinal County. She later died in the hospital in Scottsdale. The people in the vehicle with her have never come forward to identify her.
Description:
She is Caucasian and has blonde hair with brown roots. Her hair is 16 inches long and her eyes are blue. She has a tattoo of a blue heart on her chest and was wearing earrings and a navel ring. She is 5' 4" and weighed 110-130 pounds.
Scientific Information:
Her dental x-rays are available and her DNA has been entered into the national database.

who was she?
is she a runaway, a prostitute, &/or was she a kidnapped child?
is she from another country?
why is no one missing her?
did she jump to try to escape, or did someone kill her by pushing her out? .. and why?
one has to wonder... was she killed because she threatened to go to the authorities?
keep in mind when checking photos of missing children from a few years before that it says that her real hair color seems to be BROWN. did she bleach it in order to not be recognized, or did her captor make her bleach it?

also... if she was pushed from the car, then there must have been a second person in the car. i can't imagine how a driver could push someone out while driving. it seems someone must have been in the back seat with her.
my guess is that she was at the age to rebel & start questioning things and finally decided to make a run for it. she jumped to escape and was hoping she would make it, but didn't.
any thoughts.......???

[kwatson696]

I wish I knew, I have saw this poor girl on other sites, it just seems like someone would miss her, :confused: she seems so young and a pretty girl too....I mean she had to have friends that would notice she was gone. (that is if it may have been one or more of her parents that pushed her from the car) but grandparents brothers sisters some one has to know her....anyway I'm rambling but I do wish someone could or would identify her....:mad:

[reb]

2 things i found interesting about this case (other than what i wrote in the first post):

they found her right away, so her facial features are right there for everyone to see. not as much guesswork as if they had to reconstruct a possible face from a skull.
also, it's slightly unusual to have brown hair with blue eyes.
and, if she is really 18 in the photo, IMO, she looks VERY young for 18. i would guess closer to 13. she even looks like a child of a much younger age. and if she was really older and working in prostitution, then she would appear more worn (by the sun, hard living, smoking, drugs, stress, etc.), right?. somehow she appears very delicate and untouched, almost like a porcelein doll. this leads me to ask, was she being hidden or sheltered by someone?
which leads me to wonder... is this a parental abduction, and the child jumped out of the car & died? what parent would abandon their child on the side of the road not knowing if they were alive or dead? probably none, unless they were incredibly selfish and their fear of being caught was greater than their love for their child.
so.. if it wasn't a parent-in-hiding...... who was it? was it a pedophile who 'bought' her from a prostitute, homeless woman, or some other woman who was pregnant and didn't want her baby,or needed money for a drug habit?did this man kidnap her from her parents as a baby? or perhaps it is her real father- or some other man- who killed her mother? maybe she is even the daughter of a woman who went missing who was pregnant or who just had a child. or an almost-escapee of a pedophile ring.

i thnk what's so incredibly sad about this case is that it seems she *almost* made it to freedom.. and was even alive when taken to the hospital, but died later. and since she never got to tell her story, the perp got away. whoever else was in the car,, they had to be involved in something very bad to not even bother to stop to see if she was alive or dead. perhaps not only abduction but child abuse, murder, drugs.. who knows. and whatever it was, was bad enough for this girl to risk her own life to jump out of the car (IF that is what happened)-- but she didn't make it. and the perp either wanted her dead, or was too terrified to stop. and is this person wanted for kidnapping other children? and who knows what else...?

i've been combing through cases of missing brown-haired (even blond, just to be safe), blue-eyed young children from 1981-86... but no luck so far.

anyone know of a site that features missing/kidnapped babies & toddlers only, with photos? i already checked the NCMEC but no luck.

[kwatson696]

http://p208.ezboard.com/ficaremissingpersonscoldcasesfrm7

This is a good site for missing women and teenage girls,

http://www.coldcasecenter.com/cold_cases.htm

http://www.cyberpages.com/minidb?program=children&year=1998&month=6


http://www.mispers.com/profiles.html

These are a few....LOL I have many more...:D

[reb]

after looking at her page again,, what is interesting is that she was found on 1-10 going EASTbound. (assuming she lay where she fell). for some reason i was picturing the car going west, i don't know why. which means her captor or abductor could have been taking her from LA or somewhere is southern CA? (just a guess),,, and perhaps could have been headed to mexico....???

[Mr. E]

That scar on her cheek looks old and is very prominent. Surely someone would remember seeing a pretty blonde girl with a large scar on her cheek?

[reb]

wow, now that you mention it- it does look like an old scar, and a rather large one. i first thought it was part of her injuries when she fell on the ground, but maybe it's not. i wish this site had a bit more details about her case. she's also in the national center for missing adults, and on the doe network (but no photo).

[Beyond Belief]

She's very pretty. I went thru the National missing, but there is nothing quite like her with the right time frame. Her eyesbrows look like they were done professionally.

[Paradise]

I wonder how they know she fell, jumped or was pushed from a vehicle? I'm wondering because what if she was walking down the road and was hit? What does anyone else think?

[HollywoodBound]

Does anyone know if the people who found her right away saw the vehicle?

[reb]

good questions you guys-- and i was wondering the same thing. it seems as if someone must have seen her fall out of the vehicle- but didn't get a description. either that or they could tell by forensice evidence that she fell/jumped (and didn't get hit).
also, it's interesting they say "the people" in the car with her. how do they know it more than one person? maybe it's just semantics... but it would definitely make a big difference. if one, she most likely jumped, which means she was trying to escape... if more than one, she may have jumped but also may have been pushed, which means someone wanted to kill her... for what? threatening to go to the authorities.... or some other kind of percieved betrayal, i would presume. any other ideas?

[outofthedark]

good questions you guys-- and i was wondering the same thing. it seems as if someone must have seen her fall out of the vehicle- but didn't get a description. either that or they could tell by forensice evidence that she fell/jumped (and didn't get hit).
also, it's interesting they say "the people" in the car with her. how do they know it more than one person? maybe it's just semantics... but it would definitely make a big difference. if one, she most likely jumped, which means she was trying to escape... if more than one, she may have jumped but also may have been pushed, which means someone wanted to kill her... for what? threatening to go to the authorities.... or some other kind of percieved betrayal, i would presume. any other ideas?
I was going to say suicide- but I'm not sure about that

[Mr. E]

How often do people commit suicide by jumping out of a car?? I mean, people jump in front of cars, or they jump off of buildings. But jumping out of a car? That just sounds like an odd method of suicide to me. It seems more likely that she was pushed or jumped in an attempt to live, not die.

[smile22]

what if she was not a runaway or a missing child what if the people in the car are her parents and she was running from them thats why no one came foward? im going to do some checking against some missing children and post what i find. i noticed on her page about her that she had a navel ring and a heart tat. you have to be 18 to get a tat or a navel ring or some places if your parent signs the paper and consents to it knowing the risks could be greater for someone younger. and it said her dna was in the national database. are all missing children entered into the database. no matches showed up so far

[smile22]

ok here are some potential matches

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/178dfmt.html

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/491dfnj.html

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/263dfmi.html


http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/405dfnet.html

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/489dfri.html this one is a way long shot but question on it it says mother who kidnaped the child abductor/mother has now been placed in the National Computer as a missing person/endangered. does that mean the mother was kidnaped with her children ? maybe she went underground

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/283dfin.html

[Paradise]

I don't know, all of these girls seem a little old, the only one I see as being possible is Michelle Willard.

[reb]

i looked at them too, but several had either brown eyes or were a few years too older than her presumed age (oldest being 18, they think).

i never thought of it as a suicide... but possibly more like "i might die if i jump but who acres, can't be much worse than this anyway". ie, whatever she was trying to escape was worth risking death for. just my guess.

i wonder if her tattoo was crude/homemade, or looked as if it was done by a professional? too bad they don't have a photo of it on her profile. her photo could be shown to various tattoo parlors in that part of the country, to see if anyone recognized her.

[pardilia]

What about this one? http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/silver_heather.html


I know its probably not only a longshot, but just plain wrong - but a couple of years with the "wrong crowd" could account for weight loss.

Though, I sort of have the feeling that the girl is a tenager who was probably out joyriding with friends (or acquaintances) and that the kids in the car are just too scared to come forward. She could be missing/deemd a runaway by a local district that hasn't gotten her case "out there".

[kwatson696]

Surely, somebody must be looking for the teenage girl with the tattoo of a blue heart on her chest.

But in the six years since the girl died, no one has stepped forward to identify her. Hers has become one of an increasing number of bodies without names that are stacking up each year in Maricopa County.

Nearly 200 people since 1973, mostly men, have never been identified in Maricopa County. Officials point to the prevalence of immigration, homelessness, mental illness and drug abuse that can separate people from their families and make it harder to identify them when they die.


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0606bodies06.html


Case #99-0305

Female.

Age: 13 to 18 years old.

Found: Jan. 27, 1999.

Location: Pinal County.

Details: The girl either fell, jumped or was pushed from a moving vehicle. She died at a Scottsdale hospital. The people in the vehicle with her never came forward to identify her. The girl was White, 5 feet 4 inches and weighed 110 to 130 pounds. She had 16-inch-long blonde hair with brown roots, and her eyes were blue.

Distinguishing characteristics: She had a tattoo of a blue heart and was wearing earrings and a navel ring.

:banghead:

[kwatson696]

What about this girl

4. Sheila Catherine Egan, DOB Aug. 4,1978 (21). White female, born 1978, 5 feet 7 inches (170 cm), 105 pounds (47kg), blonde shoulder length hair, blue eyes. Is a known drug user and sex trade worker in the downtown east side. Last seen July 1998

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h13/kwatson696/th_egan.jpg (http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h13/kwatson696/egan.jpg)

[Paradise]

What about this one? http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/silver_heather.html


I know its probably not only a longshot, but just plain wrong - but a couple of years with the "wrong crowd" could account for weight loss.

Though, I sort of have the feeling that the girl is a tenager who was probably out joyriding with friends (or acquaintances) and that the kids in the car are just too scared to come forward. She could be missing/deemd a runaway by a local district that hasn't gotten her case "out there".
I actually like this one, I know the age is off a little but the weight isn't that far off. On Heather's Charley Project page it says she has a scar on her right cheek and I think someone above noticed that JD had an old scar on her right cheek. I think this is worth looking into.

[pardilia]

Surely, somebody must be looking for the teenage girl with the tattoo of a blue heart on her chest.
Well, if she was a teenager, if her parents/guardians are looking for her they might not be looking for someone with the belly piercing and the tattoo as they might not be aware that she had either.

I wonder if anyone viewed the body thinking it was their daughter but then ruled it out because of either the tattoo, piercings, or both? Possibly being that it was too painful to admit their child was dead from such a tragic accident AND had kept secrets from them.

[Paradise]

Well, if she was a teenager, if her parents/guardians are looking for her they might not be looking for someone with the belly piercing and the tattoo as they might not be aware that she had either.

I wonder if anyone viewed the body thinking it was their daughter but then ruled it out because of either the tattoo, piercings, or both? Possibly being that it was too painful to admit their child was dead from such a tragic accident AND had kept secrets from them.
I hope you're not upset but I sent this to Gerry Nance at NCMEC. He thinks it's a good match although the hairline isn't quite the same. He said this might've already been ruled out since they went missing in the same county but it's worth a shot.

[Becba]

I hope you're not upset but I sent this to Gerry Nance at NCMEC. He thinks it's a good match although the hairline isn't quite the same. He said this might've already been ruled out since they went missing in the same county but it's worth a shot.
In the pic of the unidentified girl it looks like part of her head had to be shaved and they washed her hair and brushed it to the side to cover the area. That may change the appearance of the hairline a bit.

I think it is a good match too.

[Paradise]

Well Gerry said himself that the picture of Heather was fuzzy (so he couldn't make out a scar on her cheek). I guess that might alter the hairline a little also...and you're right, I bet they did wash her hair.

[pardilia]

I hope you're not upset but I sent this to Gerry Nance at NCMEC. He thinks it's a good match although the hairline isn't quite the same. He said this might've already been ruled out since they went missing in the same county but it's worth a shot.
Oh, I'm not upset at all!! :)

[outofthedark]

I guess when a potential match is found in the same area that probably could help to some degree:twocents:

[MistyM]

okay this post kinda got to me. and i have insomnia.

i was thinking what if they had a different view of her, maybe with her eyes showing and her lips not so swelled. (maybe she has naturally pouty lips maybe it's just swelling)... so i took my own eyes off a picture (i'm a brown haired blue eye) and added them to her, then i took the swelling down, added some color and smoothed everything out.

just for a different perspective. part of me thinks she might not look like herself completely because of swelling. i dunno.

so here is my photoshopped picture. sorry it's amateur. i mean no disrespect to this girl i feel really sad, i just thought maybe this might help. who i don't know. but i felt like i had to do it. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

[crimson3]

I think you did a good job with the photo. The actual photos are much easier to use to try to make an idenification. The fact that she was injured in the accident and had swelling most likely made her look much different than in "real" life. :)

[julianne]

Good thinking, MistyM. I would've never thought about doing that----you did a good job. Your finished product looks like an older JonBenet Ramsey to me---very much so. JMO....

To me, it looks like the injuries to this girls face are as a result of a beating, and not from being thrown/pushed out of a car. Obviously, they must have some evidence to support her being thrown/pushed/fell out of a car, but I think it's highly probable that maybe she was beaten first. Again, jmo.

I spent some time searching for clues online last night...no luck.

[LButler]

Just tuned in to this thread, but julianne gave me a thought....

What if this child was already dead when she was thrown from the car?

For some strange reason, she doesn't look like she was "ejected for whatever reason" and skidded down a concrete road. Wouldn't her face have suffered more trauma, scratches, scrapes?? I know it's possible that her face never came into contact with the road, but I see this as being unlikely?

Were there witnesses to this? Was she actually seen coming out of a moving car?

She does not look like a victim of kidnapping (in ref to those looking back at older cases of younger children). I think of her more as a "recent" runaway.

[reb]

well, according to the info given.. someone (doesn't say who) found her alive & took her to the hospital. doesn't say if she was ever conscious,, but i'm assuming not, otherwise they probably would have gotten some basic info from her (unless she refused to talk). i wrote to the agency where they handled the case & asked a few basic questions... i also told them about this site just in case they wanted to join in (people who work there may not be legally able to do this,, but you never know?).. but no answer, yet.

mistym-- great job on the photoshop, for being an 'amateur'! it's interesting to see an alternative view of the face. i'm very surprised no one has made an official picture of what she may have looked like, since they have a lot to work with, it's not like they have to reconstruct it from a skull, and she wasn't decomposed-- i mean she's right there! come on, people!! even on the doe network,, she has a number and no photo at all. maybe she is on a list of faces they are still working on & haven't released yet.
but, there wasn't even any info about what kind of clothing she was found in, if it was american made, or anything. the clothing could also give an indication if she may have been a prostitute or not.

i keep thinking she was involved in some kind of sharon marshall scenario.. in an abusive situation, kidnapped by (or sold to) a pedophile, perhaps newly forced into prostitution, or maybe she was with her real parent/s who were abusive & on the run, or she was being concealed somehow. then there's the possibility she may have been from canada....? anyone want to check missing young girls from there?

just thought of something.... it's also entirely possible that she had been riding with a trucker and this is why the fall killed her (of course, you can just as soon die from jumping from a car too).

[pardilia]

I really don't get the feeling that this girl was being held by anyone for a long period of time, if at all. Her eyebrows are too well-groomed for me to suggest that. The piercings and tattoo are also a bit 'odd' for a 'kept' person.

My first question would be if they combed the highway for a few miles down for her purse - if she was thrown out of a vehicle or fell on her own, the persons inside would be wanting to get rid of her personal effects.

Given her age, I would think that the parents probably do not know about the tattoo and maybe not the belly button piercing either. They're both in places easy to hide from parents/guardians. Also, given her age, if she was about 16/17, she would have had friends about the same age who were just getting their licenses - what if they were out riding about and she was hanging out of the car and slipped and fell? Or had a friend who pushed her while she was hanging out, not meaning to cause the accident which took her life?

There have been cases in the past where years later the guilt gets to people and they come forward and admit to their role in crimes/accidents. Perhaps they did not come forward because they were doing something illegal at the time and did not want to also get in trouble for that (drugs/alcohol).

I just keep thinking about how easy it would be for a teenager to hang out with some kids after school he/she didn't know well, get into an accident, and never be identified - particularly if they had tattoos or piercings people looking for them might not be aware of or even think "my child would never do that!"

I would be very interested in the time this accident occurred.

[californiacarrie]

Cases like these disturb me so - much like the girl in Pennsylvania who was recently (late this summer) seen being forced into a van, and nobody knew who she was, and there was no missing persons report ever filed. I've worked with at risk teens for several years. Many of them young girls within the foster system who run away from homes frequently and hook up with men...have sex, do drugs, etc. Nobody would notice if some of these girls went missing for extended periods of time. Nobody would file a missing persons report. Nobody would claim them if a body was found somewhere. They are just out there, anonymously...easy targets...rarely missed. I try to tell them but they don't care. They think they're invincible - the "it won't happen to me" syndrome.


Anyway.....

[reb]

well, if this scenario were true it would probably mean that her parents would have a missing persons alert out for her... unless, they are completely clueless, drug-addicts/transients, or have something to hide, are in another country (?), or just don't care.

isn't it possible that her eyebrows are natural?

you brought up a good point-- wonder if they found alcohol/drugs in her system? somehow she doesn't have that 'look' of being drunk or drugged, but you never know. i wish they would reveal more info about the case.

CC-- very good point also-- i hadn't even thought of the foster care system, of course!! aren't there a ton of foster 'parents' out there who couldn't care less if the kid ran away, as long as they keep receiving their check? LE should definitely be checking her with foster care agencies, if they aren't already. although i bet a lot of them are as crooked & chaotic as the families who take them in,,, no?

that's disturbing about the girl forced into a van. i'm sure anyone who knows her is watching out for themselves & doesn't want to report her missing for fear of being 'busted' for their own activities... people living that lifestyle probably just think "oh well, another one gone"... did anyone get a good look at her, the van or the person/people taking her?

[californiacarrie]

Its more the group homes that are the culprits of cases like I was mentioning - not so much foster homes. A missing persons report is usually filed with a "warrant of attachment" when a kid runs away from one of these facilities, but not much effort is made to find them - not much effort is made to find runaways from any situation honestly. Still, with kids in the system, its an "out of sight, out of mind" effect that ripples down. Someone worries for a few days but then that kid gets replaced with a new kid on your caseload and suddenly you've forgotten all about the one out there on the streets somewhere.

[pardilia]

well, if this scenario were true it would probably mean that her parents would have a missing persons alert out for her... unless, they are completely clueless, drug-addicts/transients, or have something to hide, are in another country (?), or just don't care.

isn't it possible that her eyebrows are natural? Well, as we all know, not all missing persons reports are available online and not all LE try to get the information out there to find these people. Particularly if she's from a small county and considered a runaway. =/ Her parents could very well be missing her and just not know what to do to get the information out there. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it wasn't a case of the parents asking LE and being told "she'll turn up eventually."

I really doubt her eyebrows are natural - my guess is she probably had them done around the same time her hair was dyed - to me, it looks like a professional dye job that had maybe a month tops to grow out. They're just too symmetrical and 'clean' to be natural.

ETA: I just keep thinking how easy it would be for a teenager with no ID to go a joyride maybe an hour or so away with kids he/she didn't know well, to have an accident and to remain unidentified because only local media picked up the story and the people looking for the victim are just a few miles out of range.

[reb]

this was posted in another thread by itsreenw... & was exactly what i was looking for.

http://hot-on-the-trail-at.blog-city.com/were_you_abducted_as_a_baby.htm

here's one, maybe?:
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=708328&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

[pardilia]

here's one, maybe?:
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=708328&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_UShttp://www.doenetwork.us/cases/341dfnj.html

The previous link would be for the same child. I find it doubtful that she is still alive given the situation. :(

[reb]

oops, i didn't see her info on the doenet page.

then again, since it was a mentally disabled person... you never know what happened. but,, probably doubtful it's her.

[pardilia]

oops, i didn't see her info on the doenet page.

then again, since it was a mentally disabled person... you never know what happened. but,, probably doubtful it's her.The trouble with cases posted on various sites is that some seem to not include information that would prevent people from thinking it is the child if they were still alive. The Doe Network seems to include the information when people are suspected of having drowned, etc., which is either a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know. :) I usually try searching the names through google to see if any other information not included on webpages can be found. Sometimes you find things, other times you don't.

This girl seems so identifiable, though.

[LButler]

I think she is in the lower range of their age estimate (13 or so), she just looks so young.

I think she possibly has very light brown hair that turns blonder as it grows, maybe not dyed. Her complexion looks so fair, her hair can't naturally be very dark. (I realize people are pale in morgue photos, but she still looks very light skinned).

I'm was a little surprised at the weight estimate for her (110 to 130), she looks much smaller than that.

Has anyone contacted the agency handling this or planning to? IF so,

-What was she wearing when found?
-what size were her clothes and shoes?
-did the scar on her face look old or new?
-had she eaten recently and what?
-what time was she ejected from the car?

I'm guessing runaway for her, but I can't find anyone who matches her. Unless she's been gone for a long time.

[pardilia]

I think she is in the lower range of their age estimate (13 or so), she just looks so young.

I think she possibly has very light brown hair that turns blonder as it grows, maybe not dyed. Her complexion looks so fair, her hair can't naturally be very dark. (I realize people are pale in morgue photos, but she still looks very light skinned).

I'm was a little surprised at the weight estimate for her (110 to 130), she looks much smaller than that.

Has anyone contacted the agency handling this or planning to? IF so,

-What was she wearing when found?
-what size were her clothes and shoes?
-did the scar on her face look old or new?
-had she eaten recently and what?
-what time was she ejected from the car?

I'm guessing runaway for her, but I can't find anyone who matches her. Unless she's been gone for a long time.I don't think anyone has contacted the agency - I know I haven't. :) I haven't a clue of how to go about getting that information from people and whatnot...but I'd be very grateful if someone could!

[Paradise]

Still waiting to hear from Gerry...

[reb]

i still haven't gotten a reply from the mariposa medex office either.. of course that e-mail is probably the least of their worries right now, i imagine all these offices are overburdened, all over the country, all the time!

[pardilia]

i still haven't gotten a reply from the mariposa medex office either.. of course that e-mail is probably the least of their worries right now, i imagine all these offices are overburdened, all over the country, all the time!Perhaps someone on the forums lives near there or has a better way of getting the information if we can't?

[Thwack]

Hi guys.

I was doing some "what-if" scenarios the other day on this case. I wonder if this girl could be Jaycee Lee Dugard (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dugard_jaycee.html). I realize that Jaycee would be on the high end of the estimated age, but...

The hairline and hair color seem close.
Same eye color
Same jawline and chin
Same nose.

Any thoughts?

Mike

[reb]

it's possible,, but she looks different to me. jaycee's lips look a bit thinner, and there's just something different about the face. jaycee looks more german or northern european.. and the AZ girl's skin looks darker, & her features look (to me) as if she has some spanish or mediterranean (french?) heritage. also their hair texture appears different (that's hard to judge though).. and i agree that the girl does seem too young to be jaycee. but hopefully LE has already looked into this?

[JusticeForAll]

What about this missing girl?http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster25.htm

[Paradise]

edited to delete pics

[JusticeForAll]

The height, weight, age, hair and eye color match. Also both had pierced bellybuttons and ears. Kristy had a lazy eye, it doesn't mention that in the JD's description.

[pardilia]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the UID and Kristy Rogers...I think their hairlines look similar.We're not sure if that's actually her natural hairline as it appears her hair was brushed over to cover up injuries on the right side of her head for the picture. Although its possible that they would not be able to note a lazy eye if she never regained conciousness, I doubt its her just based on the circumstances of her disappearance. (What teenager gets up at 5:00a.m. on a Saturday during the summer? I would imagine it would have stated why if she was going a job or another obligation.

Off Topic: I also don't understand why they make her hair so light of a blonde in the age progression drawings - haircolor doesn't get lighter as you get older!!I'm 24 and when I was her age my hair was about the same color...now the only way to get any blonde in is with peroxide! :)

[pardilia]

Any updates?

[kwatson696]

Hi guys.

I was doing some "what-if" scenarios the other day on this case. I wonder if this girl could be Jaycee Lee Dugard (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dugard_jaycee.html). I realize that Jaycee would be on the high end of the estimated age, but...

The hairline and hair color seem close.
Same eye color
Same jawline and chin
Same nose.

Any thoughts?

Mike

I like this match...........Good job Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paradise]

I haven't heard back from Gerry yet, if I don't hear back by Tuesday I'll e-mail him.

[Becba]

It does not say what the unidentified girl was wearing. Kristy has a discription of the clothes she was last seen in. It would be good to know what the unidentified girl had on. I know hospitals cut the clothes and sometimes they get discarded but whoever worked her case may know.

Also Kristy went to see a boyfriend secretly so she may have changed clothes and that would render the point moot.
I think it looks like a good match.

[LisainWV]

becba .... Kristy went missing 8-2-97 and Jane Doe was found 1-27-99. The clothing thing wouldn't be an issue after more than a year?

I do think the match looks good. Kristy's aged picture looks alot like the Doe.

Who did the picture of Jane Doe with her eyes open? It would be cool to see that picture beside kristy's.

Kristy's lazy eye is not real obvious in her picture - some of them are - and may have not been noticeable on the doe with face swelling and so on.

[Tom'sGirl]

Hi guys.

I was doing some "what-if" scenarios the other day on this case. I wonder if this girl could be Jaycee Lee Dugard (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dugard_jaycee.html). I realize that Jaycee would be on the high end of the estimated age, but...

The hairline and hair color seem close.
Same eye color
Same jawline and chin
Same nose.

Any thoughts?

Mike
I've been reading this thread and the posts. Jaycee had this in her description:

~ a gap between her upper front teeth at the time of her 1991
~ a chicken pox scar between her eyes
~ a brown butterfly-shaped birthmark on her right arm below her elbow
~ and moles on her back

None of those would have disappeared. Is there any indication that Jane Doe had any of these identifying features? I would think these would be the first things they would link to one another.

Also, even with her eyes closed, they seem to be set far apart, and the bridge of her nose is wider.

Just my :twocents:

[Paradise]

Which picture are you talking about? Someone from websleuths used the JD's picture and put their own eyes on it and took off the bruises on the side of the JD's face to get a better idea of what she could've looked like.

[LisainWV]

Which picture are you talking about? Someone from websleuths used the JD's picture and put their own eyes on it and took off the bruises on the side of the JD's face to get a better idea of what she could've looked like.
That would be it. And, I realize it wasn't really a picture of her with her eyes open, it was a photoshop job.

[Becba]

becba .... Kristy went missing 8-2-97 and Jane Doe was found 1-27-99. The clothing thing wouldn't be an issue after more than a year?

I do think the match looks good. Kristy's aged picture looks alot like the Doe.

Who did the picture of Jane Doe with her eyes open? It would be cool to see that picture beside kristy's.

Kristy's lazy eye is not real obvious in her picture - some of them are - and may have not been noticeable on the doe with face swelling and so on.
You are right. Must of had one of those dyslexic moments. lol Thanks for keeping me on the right track.

[LisainWV]

becba .... no problem, I'm really bad about doing that and have tried to get in the habit of triple checking before i post. I think we just get "excited" sometimes about a possible match and jump.

[rhyno1974]

They have added some composite photos at the link below.
(link to pictures deleted)


(http://www.maricopa.gov/Medex/Unidentified/search.aspx?caseNum=99-0305)

[Tom'sGirl]

They have added some composite photos at the link below.
(link to medex site deleted)


Sorry, didn't see any more than was there as per the link in post #1.

[rhyno1974]

I know when it was first posted here it only had the morgue photo. Perhaps it was added sometime back. It has been awhile since I have been at that site.

[Tom'sGirl]

To me, it looks like the injuries to this girls face are as a result of a beating, and not from being thrown/pushed out of a car.

That's how it looks to me also. A car could have pulled over to the soft-shoulder and shoved her out, it doesn't look like she was thrown on the asphalt.

Too bad they show no wounds to the body, maybe there were other bruises :confused:

[LisainWV]

Those new composites?? The first drawing shows her eyes and eyebrows very close together with a very thin long face. the second drawing looks more like the morgue photo.


I wonder how she could have bruised her eye and mouth like she did from being thrown from the car, but her cheek, nose and elsewhere looks untouched. I would think there would be a "skidding" effect and there would be lots more scrapes and scratches especially on the cheekbone and nose.

I too think see was beaten.

[annemc2]

And what's with the strange Victorian-looking clothing with the brooch? Is that what she was really wearing?

[LisainWV]

And what's with the strange Victorian-looking clothing with the brooch? Is that what she was really wearing?
No kidding. I wondered about that too but thought I might have missed some info.

I'm surprised we don't have info on her clothes. let's pretend we're LE and we just get called to either the "accident" scene or the hospital and told that a young girl has been "ejected in some manner" from a moving car. Car continues on it's route. Are we not suspicious at this point? Would they not try to get as much info about her as possible, including what she was wearing at the time of the accident?

[pardilia]

No kidding. I wondered about that too but thought I might have missed some info.

I'm surprised we don't have info on her clothes. let's pretend we're LE and we just get called to either the "accident" scene or the hospital and told that a young girl has been "ejected in some manner" from a moving car. Car continues on it's route. Are we not suspicious at this point? Would they not try to get as much info about her as possible, including what she was wearing at the time of the accident?They may be withholding that information if someone she was with when she was pushed out of the car actually comes forward to identify her. If they're able to tell what she was wearing at the time, it would be further proof for LE.

To me, it looks fairly consistent with falling from a car - it appears that part of her lower lip is missing, while the other half is bruised and swollen and the lower lip that appears to be missing is on the side that looks bruised and scratched. She might not have skidded on her face - she could have hit on the right side and skidded a bit but then flipped a few times.

[grievousangel]

Can we get the excellent artist who retouched the photograph of this man http://www.truckingboards.com/trucking/upload/unidentified-deceased/514-unidentified-male-north-charleston-sc.html
to do the same for this girl?

[Dublin]

What about this girl? Eye color is not the same but the nose and eyebrows are almost identical.


www.nampn.doenetwork.us/cases/shcherbakova_ekaterina.html (http://www.nampn.doenetwork.us/cases/shcherbakova_ekaterina.html)

[kwatson696]

http://www.forensicartist.com/doenetwork/bio.html

I think his name is Wesley Neville.

Grievousangel--
QUOTE "Can we get the excellent artist who retouched the photograph of this man http://www.truckingboards.com/truck...rleston-sc.html (http://www.truckingboards.com/trucking/upload/unidentified-deceased/514-unidentified-male-north-charleston-sc.html)
to do the same for this girl"

[annemc2]

Or are you talking about EFXDavid who posts here and did the incredible CGI work with the Grays Harbor John Doe (aka Lyle Stevik)? Maybe he would consider helping on this case, as well.

[outofthedark]

Doe Network has added two composites of her and they changed her case from a hot

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/TMMJD/MJD_ID_TawniLee.jpg

[julianne]

This case is very strange to me...well, stranger than most. I don't know what it is....I can't put my finger on it, but this girl looks has such a "familiar" look to me. Not familiar in way that I think I knew her, because I don't think that. Familiar in a way that I feel I have SEEN this face before. More than once. Possibly in a missing persons bulletin. I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that the answer is hidden right before our very eyes. Something about her face........

I have been looking at her pic almost daily & can't put my finger on it. I don't know what it is....but there's SOMETHING!!! Ever since the very first time I saw the pic, there was definately something..

Does anybody else feel this way or am I just freaking out?

[outofthedark]

Doe Network lists her death as "Undetermined"- I think 9/10 that she died from impact resulting from how she fell out of the vehicle both physically and possibly internally

[julianne]

Doe Network lists her death as "Undetermined"- I think 9/10 that she died from impact resulting from how she fell out of the vehicle both physically and possibly internallyI don't know. I think, by the injuries to her face, that she was beaten. Her facial injuries do not look like they are the result of falling out of the car. No "road rash" on her face, no visible scrapes or cuts. Her bottom lip is fat, like she was hit in the mouth.

It's wierd that her death is listed as "undetermined". That makes me think that the investigators don't believe that her death resulted from being pushed out of a car. I mean, they say she was pushed out of a moving vehicle, and that they know this, but then go on to say he death is "undetermined." Strange.

I think that if they really thought that she died as a result of being pushed or thrown out of a moving vehicle, then it wouldn't be "undetermined".

[pardilia]

I don't know. I think, by the injuries to her face, that she was beaten. Her facial injuries do not look like they are the result of falling out of the car. No "road rash" on her face, no visible scrapes or cuts. Her bottom lip is fat, like she was hit in the mouth.

It's wierd that her death is listed as "undetermined". That makes me think that the investigators don't believe that her death resulted from being pushed out of a car. I mean, they say she was pushed out of a moving vehicle, and that they know this, but then go on to say he death is "undetermined." Strange.

I think that if they really thought that she died as a result of being pushed or thrown out of a moving vehicle, then it wouldn't be "undetermined".Personally, I think part of her bottom lip is missing. If you look at the picture she appears to have full lips - and the bottom lip looks only half swollen...the swelling seems to stop impossibly abruptly. I think its hard to see if she has scratches and other injuries due to the picture. It looks like they tried to make her as presentable as possible - its difficult to even tell that she has the older scar on her face due to the lighting.

Neither of the new composites look too much like she does in the original morgue picture, but maybe that's just me. :)

I wonder if the site has a standard set of "causes of death" and they put undetermined because there's no "complications from being pushed out of vehicle". (It would make sense for them to have streamlined a form for posting these cases online.) Or they could just be withholding it until she's identified. Or it could be that she died from something they aren't sure wasn't a previously existing condition or something that was a direct result of the accident and they're hoping to find that out when she's identified. The possibilities are practically endless. =(

I keep editing argh! I also just thought that maybe since they don't know if she jumped or fell or was pushed they don't know if they can label it a sucide or an accident.

[outofthedark]

I don't know. I think, by the injuries to her face, that she was beaten. Her facial injuries do not look like they are the result of falling out of the car. No "road rash" on her face, no visible scrapes or cuts. Her bottom lip is fat, like she was hit in the mouth.

It's wierd that her death is listed as "undetermined". That makes me think that the investigators don't believe that her death resulted from being pushed out of a car. I mean, they say she was pushed out of a moving vehicle, and that they know this, but then go on to say he death is "undetermined." Strange.

I think that if they really thought that she died as a result of being pushed or thrown out of a moving vehicle, then it wouldn't be "undetermined".
Now that I've read your post, I'm thinking that the people in the vehicle were beating her and she jumped out of the vehicle while it was still moving to escape them and during that, she might have hit the ground at a certian impact and might have sustained even more injuries to eventually cause her death because she definitely hadn't been run over or had anything else happen to her

The injuries in Doe Network Case File 178UFMS are somewhat related to what I meant by other injuries both ways caused by an impact hit

[Lizza]

I think I know how this girl are, I will take the first contact with the investigators but because I am not from U.S.A, I think it is easier for you to handle this case from your country, so I will soon e-mail a photo on this site with some further information about this, at the time, 12-13 years old abducted girl, thane, if you think the girl in the photo is "Pinal county Jane Doe", I hope you will follow up this case. Her family deserves to know what happened to theire loved child. I will be back in a few days.

[reb]

wow. really.....??????? may i ask, what country are you from? and how do you know who she is? please, do tell!

[Lizza]

I´m from Sweden. This girl is a Russian girl who was abducted from Moscow in 1995 or 1996. She was, at the time, 12-13 years old. It makes her to be between 15-17 years in 1999. I don´t really know for sure if she and the unidentified girl are one and the same person, but they are very similar to me and everyone I show the pictures to. I have contacted Maricopa Med.Ex (Suzi Dodt) and they asked for dental records or DNA. I have therefore also contacted the Russian contact person, but the problem is that he don´t seems to speak English at all. Maybe the Russian embassy in U.S or the U.S embassy in Russia will be helpful with information or translating. Because she was found in U.S.A, I think that you are much more qualificated to handle this than me, but I will call the police in Moscow, they probably talk some English and will be helpful. If any of you think the girls are the one and same, speak some Russia, and will contact the Russian contact person, you can call this number:
007-495-158-55-35 or 007-495-157-66-00
E-mail: dim@find.org.ru

[kwatson696]

I´m from Sweden. This girl is a Russian girl who was abducted from Moscow in 1995 or 1996. She was, at the time, 12-13 years old. It makes her to be between 15-17 years in 1999. I don´t really know for sure if she and the unidentified girl are one and the same person, but they are very similar to me and everyone I show the pictures to. I have contacted Maricopa Med.Ex (Suzi Dodt) and they asked for dental records or DNA. I have therefore also contacted the Russian contact person, but the problem is that he don´t seems to speak English at all. Maybe the Russian embassy in U.S or the U.S embassy in Russia will be helpful with information or translating. Because she was found in U.S.A, I think that you are much more qualificated to handle this than me, but I will call the police in Moscow, they probably talk some English and will be helpful. If any of you think the girls are the one and same, speak some Russia, and will contact the Russian contact person, you can call this number:
007-495-158-55-35 or 007-495-157-66-00
E-mail: dim@find.org.ru
I can't get the photo to work...:confused:

[pardilia]

I can't get the photo to work...:confused:As far as I know, hardly anyone can view pictures when they are posted this way. I don't know why this feature is available at all. Hopefully this person will post here again! :)

[mjak]

What about this girl? Eye color is not the same but the nose and eyebrows are almost identical.


www.nampn.doenetwork.us/cases/shcherbakova_ekaterina.html (http://www.nampn.doenetwork.us/cases/shcherbakova_ekaterina.html)

I think this girl bears a very strong resembalnce to Jane Doe. The eye color
does not throw me off because many people have eyes that can
easily be described as green or blue. I think this is a good match.

mjak

[mjak]

And what's with the strange Victorian-looking clothing with the brooch? Is that what she was really wearing?I have been asking myself the same question. If this girl was really wearing That type of clothing and broach this puts a whole different setting on what may have led to her demise. As I do not think any runaway or prostitute or street person is running around wearing a victorian blouse and broach with a Jackie O. hair syle. What is the deal with this sketch? Unless the artist thought he/she was doing a royal portrait instead of a Jane doe composite sketch.

mjak

[Dublin]

I can't get the photo to work...:confused:
I've downloaded the picture from find.org.ru and have a "very loose" translation
of the missing girl's descripton but do not know how to use photobucket and/or if I can post the translation. Can I email both to one of you more experienced websleuths to review?

[grievousangel]

I cannot get Lizza's url to open to the picture either. Mjack, is the picture you posted the same as Lizza's??? It's getting confusing. Dublin, how did you find the picture on the all Russian websites? I was able to get to the site but couldn't make heads or tails of the site.

[kwatson696]

I've downloaded the picture from find.org.ru and have a "very loose" translation
of the missing girl's descripton but do not know how to use photobucket and/or if I can post the translation. Can I email both to one of you more experienced websleuths to review?
You can e-mail it to me and I will see if I can post it....I have
a photobucket acct.

[mjak]

I cannot get Lizza's url to open to the picture either. Mjack, is the picture you posted the same as Lizza's??? It's getting confusing. Dublin, how did you find the picture on the all Russian websites? I was able to get to the site but couldn't make heads or tails of the site.
The picture I posted was put up by Dublin and I do not belive it is the girl LIzza
is referring to. As this girl has a Russian name but was living in the US and dissapeared from the US. I believe LIzza is referring to a girl missing from Russia.

mjak

[annemc2]

Anyone here speak/read Russian by chance? The www.find.org.ru page is difficult to navigate (obviously) and doesn't have many photos. There was a photo in the left margin with a photo of a girl that resembles Jane Doe and the (loose) translation from when you click on the photo is as follows:

Region of search: Stavropol
Date of a birth: 01.01.1979
The birthplace: урож. Апанасенковского Ó-thow Stavropol Territory
The additional information: 12.11.97 примергно at 20 o'clock has left a hostel №2 street Morozova SGU 18 and till now has not returned. Приметы:на a kind of 19-20 years, growth of 160-165 sm, an average constitution, the person oval, eyes green, hair wavy dark (крашеные). Special приметы:на all the length long palms of the right hand a scar from a cut. It has been dressed: a dressing gown

I don't know if this is the one Lizza is talking about or if she is buried in the middle of this (from the front page) somewhere:

Search of people:
Relatives, Friends, Schoolfellows,
Eyewitnesses of events, Missing persons, Another.
Search of the gone animals:
Dogs, Cats, Others.
Search of the lost documents:
The passport, the Certificate, the Miss, the Diploma, Another.
Search of stolen motor transport:
The car, Motorcycle, Moped, Another.
Search of witnesses of road accident

:waitasec:

[kwatson696]

I know, I tried too, very difficult, but if you go to the English
version it takes you here.....
http://www.mavicanet.com/directory/eng/3436.html


I went to google search and typed in find.org.ru and it lets you do
an English version......still can't find a photo from this site
though.

[Dublin]

I cannot get Lizza's url to open to the picture either. Mjack, is the picture you posted the same as Lizza's??? It's getting confusing. Dublin, how did you find the picture on the all Russian websites? I was able to get to the site but couldn't make heads or tails of the site.
When you pull up find.org.ru there are small pictures that flash, if you click on one of the pictures you will be taken to that person's description/information.

I sent a picture and translation to kwatson696 of the girl I believe is being referred to. The web site shows her date of birth as 1-1-1983.

[grievousangel]

still not able to navigate the Russian missing persons website...the only flashing pictures I see are the same 2 over and over again and very obviously not the young girl in question...kwatson, are you able to post the picture Dublin found??

[mjak]

I really want to know more about the odd sketch of the girl in a victorian looking blouse and broach and with her hair done like Jackie O. I have seen many many sketches of J. Does and never ever have seen one like that. Was this girl found wearing this type of clothing? It certanitly is not within keeping of her being a runaway or prostitute or just a
typical teen. Is there reason to believe she would be dressing like this? Prehaps I am putting too much emphasis on that sketch but I am curious about it.

mjak

[rhyno1974]

Greiviousangel,

If you go to the russian site and the picture of the girl is not showing on the side, just refresh the page a few times until it shows her.

[Juliana]

Personally, I think part of her bottom lip is missing. If you look at the picture she appears to have full lips - and the bottom lip looks only half swollen...the swelling seems to stop impossibly abruptly. I think its hard to see if she has scratches and other injuries due to the picture. It looks like they tried to make her as presentable as possible - its difficult to even tell that she has the older scar on her face due to the lighting.

Neither of the new composites look too much like she does in the original morgue picture, but maybe that's just me. :)

I wonder if the site has a standard set of "causes of death" and they put undetermined because there's no "complications from being pushed out of vehicle". (It would make sense for them to have streamlined a form for posting these cases online.) Or they could just be withholding it until she's identified. Or it could be that she died from something they aren't sure wasn't a previously existing condition or something that was a direct result of the accident and they're hoping to find that out when she's identified. The possibilities are practically endless. =(

I keep editing argh! I also just thought that maybe since they don't know if she jumped or fell or was pushed they don't know if they can label it a sucide or an accident.

I think you're right. Manner of death could be homicide, suicide or accident. Cause of death could be/is injuries from "falling" out of the car. So when they say the manner of death is undetermined, they just don't know "how" or "why" she fell out of the car. Just my opinion.

[kwatson696]

Dublin my e-mail has changed to kwatson696@charter.net.

So I did'nt get what you sent, Please send it to this e-mail...

[outofthedark]

And what's with the strange Victorian-looking clothing with the brooch? Is that what she was really wearing?
I was wondering what was behind that

[julianne]

I really want to know more about the odd sketch of the girl in a victorian looking blouse and broach and with her hair done like Jackie O. I have seen many many sketches of J. Does and never ever have seen one like that. Was this girl found wearing this type of clothing? It certanitly is not within keeping of her being a runaway or prostitute or just a
typical teen. Is there reason to believe she would be dressing like this? Prehaps I am putting too much emphasis on that sketch but I am curious about it.

mjak

The clothing is curious to me. IF she was really dressed in those types of clothes, the only thing that comes to mind is one of the characters in the annual Renaissance Festival. I do know that each and every year, there IS a traveling Renaissance Festival that is indeed held in Pinal County (the county where she was found) and it lasts usually from 4-6 weeks.

Now, I know that the clothing appeared to be more along the lines of "victorian", so it could have absolutely nothing to do with the Renaissance Festival, but I just thought I'd post this because the clothing she was depicted in and the clothing worn by the Renaissance Festival workers both stand out as being far from modern attire.

She was found at the end of January, and I believe the annual festival begins in February.

[reportertype]

I've noticed a lot of Victorian blouses and those brooches for sale nowadays, part of the whole vintage-is-cool look. But in the drawing it looks more like a costume of some sort.

[julianne]

Here's a link to the Arizona Renaissance Festival

http://www.royalfaires.com/ARIZONA/

[kwatson696]

Here is what Dublin e-mailed me.....



Name: [MUROMTSEVA] Alice [GEORGIEVNA]
Region: Moscow
Date of the generation: 01.01.1983
Age at missing: 12-13 years
Height: 160 cm
Hair: light-light-brown, to the arms.
Special signs: the indicating finger of right hand is shortened.
Dressed: jacket is cloth of the black color, jeans are signal orange colors, boots on the thick sole with height on the ankle of black color

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/Dublin1955/MissingGirlfromMoscow.jpg (http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/Dublin1955/MissingGirlfromMoscow.jpg)

[LisainWV]

Here is what Dublin e-mailed me.....



Name: [MUROMTSEVA] Alice [GEORGIEVNA]
Region: Moscow
Date of the generation: 01.01.1983
Age at missing: 12-13 years
Height: 160 cm
Hair: light-light-brown, to the arms.
Special signs: the indicating finger of right hand is shortened.
Dressed: jacket is cloth of the black color, jeans are signal orange colors, boots on the thick sole with height on the ankle of black color

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/Dublin1955/MissingGirlfromMoscow.jpg (http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/Dublin1955/MissingGirlfromMoscow.jpg)
Seems like she could be ruled in or out with more details about her finger. I admit, the photo looks alot like her. I don't see info about when she went missing from Russia? Am I over looking that?

[grievousangel]

Thank you for posting the picture from the Russian website! There is a bit of resemblence ...what is remarkable to me is that the morgue photo shows the girl to have a very oval shaped face...and this is consistent with the girl's picture from the website. As to any other similarities, it's difficult to know especially because of the injuries to her face. But with today's DNA testing capabilities, it should be relatively easy to check...dna was taken from the deceased girl and if there are parents or siblings of the Russian girl still living...it would show if they are one in the same.

[mjak]

I blew up the picture of the Jane doe in the morgue and compared it to the Russian girl.
I do not think they are the same person. The Russian girl has a protruding earlobe and the Jane doe has a very different looking left ear lobe. I also think the hair is different.

mj

[rhyno1974]

I tend to disagree MJak. If you look at their chins, they are the same and look at the way both of their lips curl up on the sides. The noses are close.

[grievousangel]

I have to agree rhyno ...altho it's a long shot if for no other reason than the logistics of a young girl from Russia getting to the United States would seem to preclude that happening...but not out of the realm of possibilities. The picture of the deceased girl which was obviously drawn from her morgue photo bears the most resemblence to the Russian girl. I think that possibly her hair was combed in the swept over style to hide some scalp/head lacerations, surgery etc... the photographer wanted to make her look more presentable in case her family were to see it. I doubt that she was actually wearng the Victorian style blouse and brooch...just drawn to make her look more alive...and to be respectful...if she were my child I would be thankful that the artist and photographer tried to make her look presentable and maintain some dignity for her. Just my random thoughts.

[reb]

kwatson-- i think the link to the photo you posted is showing the wrong girl.. and this may be what is confusing people. there is another blonde girl o the site, with big sad eyes and kind of 'pouty' lips, which make her look similar to our girl... BUT.. if you check the 2 side by side i think her eyes are much closer-set than the AZ girl... also AZ girl's face/chin appears to be a little pointier/heart-shaped.
thse sketches are indeed strange. not to knock anyone's talents-- i'm sure forensice sketches & photo reconstruction is a tough job. but i sure wish we has a welsey neville on this one!! also that photo image, IMO, doesn't look like the real photo of her, or the other sketch.
one thing i still believe is that this girl is very young.. definitely closer ot 13. i might even say she was 12 or even 11, since girls are looking more mature for their age these days. there's something very babyish and smooth and unworn about her skin and her face... she just seems very innocent.

i agree about the brooch-- very weird- and not just that, but that almost elizabethan looking collar!! why won't they say what she was wearing?? what, was she a mormon? or in some fundamentalist christian cult living out in the desert somewhere? and she had abusive father or family.. maybe she shamed them or rebelled or threatened to go to authorities about something.. maybe there was sexual abuse.. maybe the father (or someone) took her far away and she ended up dead on the road, and no one reported her missing because they are not internet savvy and they were told she ran away, or they were afraid of their leader... or there is some other reason they are hiding from/don't trust authorities.. or maybe they don't care what happened to her because she 'shamed' or questioned them in some way.. did not go along with their beliefs or tactics... OK- maybe my imagination might be getting away with me here.. but.. i'm just trying to figure out why she would look so pure and unspoiled, as if she was sheltered.. which rules out prostitute theory(?) and the outfit (brooch & collar- very victorian/old-fashioned.. (from what we can tell)- and the fact that no one's looking for her (they are a very secluded group themselves, living off the grid- so no one else has ever seen her, no one misses her and no one's looking for her)

heck, maybe it's even some bizarre thing from out of a movie- where this cult believes she is possessed.. or used her as a scapegoat somehow.. (remember the salem witch trials)-- and so the leader (or someone) made her disappear,, and no one cares that she's gone.

another theory... she could be the illegitimate child that was being cared for by the father & his wife.. from a fling the father had... and the evil stepmother agreed to take the child in but hates her and the father either died or went to prison or is a druggie... and the stepmother killed her... or the girl jumped out of the car and the stepmother was afraid to stop and was hoping she was dead anyway... and was afraid of getting busted for child neglect.

i can't help but think there was sexual abuse of some kind here... and the fact that she was just hitting (or about to hit) puberty, that was very threatening to someone- a male or perhaps even a female. and i really do feel she was trying to escape something of some kind.

[grievousangel]

These situations are so difficult to unravel. I ask myself what is the most likely explanation in a situation such as this...how did a young girl come to jump, be thrown or fall out of a moving vehicle? The possibilities that run through my mind are: 1.that the driver/occupants were involved in illegal activities maybe drugs or stolen goods and quite possibly even the girl herself was involved...if she fell out accidentally (which I think is unlikely) the others could not risk going back for her...if she were pushed or jumped...pehaps she was becoming a liability and had to be gotten rid of...but, by pushing her out of the van, there was no way to know if she would live or die. 2. Secondly, I have wondered if she were in the foster care system in AZ or a surrounding state...after working in related fields, I know just how many older children ''fall through the cracks''...and become involved in various subcultures...drugs, prostitution, goth, punk scene etc. I would like to know if a tox screen was performed ... were drugs of any kind found in her system, was she undernourished etc. She really looks young...I hope her identity is found...everyone deserves that dignity.

[pardilia]

I know I've said it before, but I think the best theory is that they are NOT saying what she was wearing because it is EVIDENCE in case someone comes forward saying "Hey, I was in the car!" and then when they ask "Well, what was she wearing?" LE has something they can sort of check their account against to prevent someone from coming forward and just completely wasting their time with made up stories.

They also must not think she was someone who went missing and would not have had time to have changed her clothes before getting into the car otherwise they probably would have released a general description of what she was wearing and kept the details (such as color, etc.) to themselves.

I personally think the Russian lead makes the most sense. Its not impossible that those girls are trafficked as much as the Chinese, Japanese, Thai...

[reb]

pardidlia, you sure did say that and you very well may be right. interesting that they have taken the pictures off the site, i wonder if they are updating things...

[Lizza]

If the Russian girl "Alice" are "the Maricopa girl", it´s possible that she is a victim
for trafficking. Russian women and children are very popular in both Europe and U.S.A, and there´s lots of money involved. The victims are kept behind close doors, and been controlled by threat, violence and even torture. Maybe it explained the scar in her face. Maybe she took a chance to escape. Maybe it´s why the others in the veichle never came forward, and maybe it´s why not anybody else could, or want, indentify her. At "Maricopa" they say she looks like a scandinavian or east european girl. Even if she not are "Alice", she can still be a victim for trafficking. Many unidentified women and girls around the world can have been in this situation. Anyway, I´ve found a nice guy, who speak some russian. He has promised that he will took care of the contact with Russia. Hopefully we soon can know for sure if she is "Alice" or not. I´ll come back.

[rhyno1974]

Hi Reb,

Which site are you referring to that have removed her pictures?

[julianne]

I definately do not think she was 11, 12 or even 13. I think she was closer to 18, and just a very petite girl. The reasons I don't think she was on the younger side of the age range are:

1. Her eyebrows. The are plucked and shaped...I don't know of any preteens who pluck their eyebrows to this extent. They have lost their "natural" look. I guess it's possible a preteen could pluck her eyebrows this much, I just have never seen it.

2. She has a tatoo on her chest. To me, that indicates that she is on the older end of the spectrum. Not a surety, but a probability. The tatoo also rules out the mormon idea, because strict mormoms believe a tatoo desecrates the body, I think.

3. She had a belly ring. That also indicates to me that she is in the older end of the age range. Again, not a surety, but all these things taken together would make a preponderance of the facts slanted on the older side.

[BAD_BUTTERFLY]

I wonder if the police tried taking her picture into tattoo and piercing shops. If she was under 21 (at least in illinois) you have to have an adult sign for you as well as your name. Otherwise she still would of had to sign a release for herself. My tattoo shop makes copys of ID's and Drivers Lic. As well some of the artists may remember doing that specific tattoo for one reason or another. Just another angle I thought might be helpfull.

[christine2448]

I just noticed this case being discussed here at WS. Wanted you to know I have this Jane Doe on my MySpace.

[reb]

rhyno- the main one in my first post- jane doe's page on the maricopa county forensic unit. i thought maybe her case was being solved or they got some new info, but it seems like all the pictures have been taken off, so i figured maybe they're working on the website..?

[annemc2]

I checked the maricopa site yesterday. The photos were still there - you have to click a link first, though, at the bottom of the page where there's one of those "potentially graphic photo" notices." HTH!

[kwatson696]

I just noticed this case being discussed here at WS. Wanted you to know I have this Jane Doe on my MySpace.





Great site Christine....:woohoo:

[reb]

check it again.. all photos are gone...

[annemc2]

I can still get them - I just clicked on the red "view photos" link. Do you have pop ups disabled or something where the window can't open?

[rhyno1974]

I still get them too.

[Carl]

check it again.. all photos are gone...
I still get them also. If you are having trouble Reb, I have that case and those very photos on my site;
http://missing-and-unidentified.org/pinal_jane_doe.html
Carl

[julianne]

Yup, the photos are still there. Just checked a second ago. reb, it must be something with your computer.

[reb]

weird... must be. and strangely enough, when opening your site (carl), only the upper left-hand quarter of the page shows up.. never seen that happen before. this poor thing is probably tired... lol

[laini]

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1871dfca.html Could this be her? The thing that seems unlikely is the missing girl had a chipped tooth. But they look an awful lot alike to me when looking at jane doe's reconstruction drawing on her doenetwork page, and the death photo of jane doe. I wondered what you all thought.

[Carl]

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/1871dfca.html Could this be her? The thing that seems unlikely is the missing girl had a chipped tooth. But they look an awful lot alike to me when looking at jane doe's reconstruction drawing on her doenetwork page, and the death photo of jane doe. I wondered what you all thought.
Highly Doubtful. Pinal Jane Doe was Blonde to the roots and Blue eyed. The MP is stated as having Brown hair and Brown Eyes. I doubt its her.

[laini]

Highly Doubtful. Pinal Jane Doe was Blonde to the roots and Blue eyed. The MP is stated as having Brown hair and Brown Eyes. I doubt its her.
Good points. thanks Carl. :)

[christine2448]

I have had this UID'd young lady on my MySpace (http://www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me) and someone contacted me with a tip.....

[LisainWV]

Wow, Christine, this looks hopeful. You're doing a great job even if it doesn't turn out to be a match - got people looking!!

[kwatson696]

Good job Christine! I soooo hope it is a match for her. Poor baby.

[teonspaleprincess]

I do see a very strong resemblance!! I am crossing my fingers on this one.

[azure]

Have there been any develoments in this case?


Kelly

[H0NEYWEST]

I realize there is no possible way this woman is Pinal Jane Doe, but as soon as I saw the picture/composite I immediately thought of her. I'm only posting this link because I think Grimm looks more like the photo of Pinal Jane Doe in the morgue than the composite drawing does. Maybe this will give people a better idea of what Pinal Jane Doe might have looked like alive. What do you all think?

http://www.doenetwork.us/cases/881dfca.html

[teonspaleprincess]

The photos at that link remind me of the unidentified jane doe "orange socks"

[Emmie]

has there been any progress in looking into her as Michaela?

[reb]

you mean orange socks girl from TX..? she died & was found in '79, lisa grimm disappeared in '86.

[amazing-sea-monkey]

BUMP for this child

[christine2448]

The MySpacer who gave me this tip has been talking with the family...I am waiting word. Sorry for the delay in updates.

[LisainWV]

OHHHHH, it's terrible that it takes this long to have answers.....

I think the majority personality here is NOW NOW NOW!!

[dhchick04]

That looks like a really great match, you did a wonderful job.

[JusticeForAll]

I still say she looks a lot like the age progression picture of Kristy Jean Rogers. The height, weight, hair and eye color match. Kristy even had a pierced belly button. She might have had a tattoo the noone else knew about or got it done after she was reported missing. http://www3.fdle.state.fl.us/MCICSearch/GetImage.asp?FIN=186677

[christine2448]

I still say she looks a lot like the age progression picture of Kristy Jean Rogers. The height, weight, hair and eye color match. Kristy even had a pierced belly button. She might have had a tattoo the noone else knew about or got it done after she was reported missing. http://www3.fdle.state.fl.us/MCICSearch/GetImage.asp?FIN=186677

I am not sure that I posted it here, but I submitted Kristy Rogers as a possible match and talked to the Det. on Kristy Rogers case and they are not a match...or that is what the Det. said, that it has been compared, it's been so long, I don't remember if by DNA or not. I really thought Kristy a good match too.

[pedinurse]

I hope that this possible match is evaluated by all means. I know that her mom doesn't want to think that this could be her baby, but at least taking this possibility out of the picture might help her in her search.

[christine2448]

I didn't realize I hadn't posted this here, from Destiny:

I heard from Michaela's mom again. She did look at the post-mortem pic and doesn't see a resemblance. I can't imagine how that would be to take a look at someone that might be your daughter.. she has to be pretty strong indeed!

As I said, LE has the DNA and at this point, since she doesn't believe it's her, I am not pursuing this lead. Perhaps something will come out of the efforts by the folks at Attempt to Identify. I just read their update and it appears they've met with some success.


Destiny, thank you for your hardwork.

I really think we should notify LE about this match and let them make the decisions. Not so long ago I spoke to a coroner at length about post mortem pics and he told me that I would be surprised at how many id's are wrong because the parents/family just can not either believe it's them because they look nothing like they did when alive, or the are sure it is them and they are wrong. THis should not be a rule out....I wish I still had the notes from this to explain it as he did to me......basically, he says never rule some one out based only on post mortem pics.


So, what do you all think we should do now?

Here's my problem with letting it go w/the parents of Michaela, there is another person involved here, the doe, we must think of all involved...JMHO....I'd like more input on this.

[christine2448]

Posted by Destiny at another forum, she has had trouble getting accout here:

Hi everyone.. I've been so busy between work and school lately..

I have no idea what LE is doing since I made contact with them in December by phone. My emails have not been answered and I just don't have the ability to call them during the day. I don't want to press Michaela's mom about it either.

Now I have a question.. do you think.. that if LE decided to follow up.. would they contact her first to ask if it could be her? Because if that's what they would do, I can see where they would just stop in their tracks and not pursue the lead. I do know that DNA was collected and should be on file. Would LE just pursue the lead and then notify the family?

Also, I cannot join Websleuths.. they don't allow emails accounts from hotmail or yahoo and I'm not in a situation where I can have a domain based email account. Even if I did, I use a wireless modem through a DSL connection and I understand that my IP address changes each time I get online. So.. I can read the posts on Websleuths, I just can't respond.

[JDB]

Christine you know who this might be is Amber Swartz?I am at work so I can not search for a pic. But being from where both Amber and Michaela went missing. I do recall that Amber and Michaela looked a lot alike. And being old an all my memory might not be as good. but Amber I think did have a chipped tooth also.

[phenolred]

heres a pic of AMBER boy the age progression the hair really seems to fit http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster470.htm

[JDB]

heres a pic of AMBER boy the age progression the hair really seems to fit http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster470.htm

Thank you. And seeing that Amber went Missing in 1988 an was born in 1980 that would make the UID if it is her 19. And from the pics that is the age or close to it. I know Amber and Michaela went missing within a year or two of each other.

[christine2448]

delete pics

[christine2448]

Wow, look at the nose ya'll.

Now...I was asking about Michaela, and you all bring another Doe.

How do the stats line up?

Need to see what the story is, right now I just looked at the pictures.

[christine2448]

OK


Doe- guesstimated age is 13-18
If this IS Amber, she would be 18/19 IIRC

If this IS Amber, she would have been missing 11 yrs at the discovery of the Doe.

The eye color matches.

The hair, I can't say yes or no... I am not educated in hair color. I can tell you that Amber had blonde hair at age 8 ( I don't know her family history and if her parents/siblings have brown/blonde hair) the Doe has blonde hair w/BROWN roots, prolly brown dyed blonde?

[JDB]

Wow, look at the nose ya'll.

Now...I was asking about Michaela, and you all bring another Doe.

How do the stats line up?

Need to see what the story is, right now I just looked at the pictures.

Oh Amber is not a Doe in my heart. Again another one that went missing in my back yard so to speak.Here is what I copied from her pic
ID Info - NCIC #M-305024999. Amber is a white female with straight blond hair and blue eyes. She has a severe hearing impairment and suffers from migraine headaches. She has pierced ears and wears earrings with gold and emerald posts. She was last seen wearing a white short sleeved shirt with pictures of sunglasses on it, purple pants and white LA Gear tennis shoes with pink shoelaces.

Circumstances - Amber was last seen playing in her front yard in Pinole, California. She has not been seen or heard from since. Amber may have a leather jump rope with wooden handles with her.

[christine2448]

Oh Amber is not a Doe in my heart. Again another one that went missing in my back yard so to speak.Here is what I copied from her pic
ID Info - NCIC #M-305024999. Amber is a white female with straight blond hair and blue eyes. She has a severe hearing impairment and suffers from migraine headaches. She has pierced ears and wears earrings with gold and emerald posts. She was last seen wearing a white short sleeved shirt with pictures of sunglasses on it, purple pants and white LA Gear tennis shoes with pink shoelaces.

Circumstances - Amber was last seen playing in her front yard in Pinole, California. She has not been seen or heard from since. Amber may have a leather jump rope with wooden handles with her.

Sorry Sorry, I typed wrong. I mean another missing. Sorry.

[JDB]

OK


Doe- guesstimated age is 13-18
If this IS Amber, she would be 18/19 IIRC

If this IS Amber, she would have been missing 11 yrs at the discovery of the Doe.

The eye color matches.

The hair, I can't say yes or no... I am not educated in hair color. I can tell you that Amber had blonde hair at age 8 ( I don't know her family history and if her parents/siblings have brown/blonde hair) the Doe has blonde hair w/BROWN roots, prolly brown dyed blonde?

It is to close to not see. her father was a policeman who was gunned down.her Mom started a fondation years ago. Let me see if I can find a pic of her mom.

[christine2448]

I have sent out Amber on mailing lables in the past, and I never connected these 2 cases...maybe be onto something JDB.

[christine2448]

It is to close to not see. her father was a policeman who was gunned down.her Mom started a fondation years ago. Let me see if I can find a pic of her mom.

That would be great, pic of mom, prolly can find one on dad too since he was an officer killed in the line of duty, how sad.

[JDB]

I have sent out Amber on mailing lables in the past, and I never connected these 2 cases...maybe be onto something JDB.

I am going to send an e-mail to Kim Swartz now. Asking if they have checked this one for Amber.

[christine2448]

I am going to send an e-mail to Kim Swartz now. Asking if they have checked this one for Amber.

Is that a relative of Amber?? Be very careful JDB, we have a morgue photo here, this can be devasting! Sure you don't want to approach it differently...unless that isn't the family....or if you know them and think it's OK.

[JDB]

Is that a relative of Amber?? Be very careful JDB, we have a morgue photo here, this can be devasting! Sure you don't want to approach it differently...unless that isn't the family....or if you know them and think it's OK.

Not related. Kim was the one who was helping during Laci's case.

[JDB]

Not related. Kim was the one who was helping during Laci's case.

Oops my bad. Kim is her mom. I was thinking of Kim Peterson.

[JDB]

That would be great, pic of mom, prolly can find one on dad too since he was an officer killed in the line of duty, how sad.

Here is the best I could do for her mom Bottom of the page
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/swartzgarcia_amber.html

[JDB]

I have just sent an e-mail to the Carole Sund foundation with this link.. I know kim Peterson and Ambers mom have worked together in the pass. Lets see what happens.

[christine2448]

I have just sent an e-mail to the Carole Sund foundation with this link.. I know kim Peterson and Ambers mom have worked together in the pass. Lets see what happens.

OK, now, back to the Doe, what do you think of Michaela, anyone? Should we pursue? HOw about what the mother said? Wanted some input on what you all thought about all of this.

[JDB]

OK, now, back to the Doe, what do you think of Michaela, anyone? Should we pursue? HOw about what the mother said? Wanted some input on what you all thought about all of this.

I think both are worth having checked out.

[christine2448]

I think both are worth having checked out.

I just hate to 'step' on mom's toes, make sense? This is all so sensitive.

Thanks JDB, I was waiting for someone to come along and give me some input, and you jumped right in! :blowkiss:

[JDB]

I just hate to 'step' on mom's toes, make sense? This is all so sensitive.

Thanks JDB, I was waiting for someone to come along and give me some input, and you jumped right in! :blowkiss:

I just keep thinking that is someones daughter there and they need closure.What I would do is send the comparsion to the Maricopa PD and see what they think. Then it will be thier call as to follow it any farther.

[dhchick04]

I think both are worth having checked out.

Agree completely.

[christine2448]

I just submitted both possible matches to Maricopa. Now, we wait and see if they respond.

[christine2448]

Date: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:52 PM
From: Office of the Medical Examiner
To: caseinvestigator@charter.net
Subject: Unidentified Persons Information
Size: 2 KB

Thank you for your submission.
We will review the information you supplied against our case records. If
neccessary, we may contact you by phone or email.

Thank You Again,
Office of the Medical Examiner

[JDB]

Bumping to see if anyone else has input.

[LionRun]

Hi guys:). Great research, and I hope that this Doe turns out to be either Amber or Michaela. I see some things off when comparing the bone structures, so I do have doubts. But, I am just one skeptical person offering an opinion. And, I would have sent them off to be compared too--just to be sure. I sooo hope one of these girls is a match.

Lion

[mjak]

Hi guys:). Great research, and I hope that this Doe turns out to be either Amber or Michaela. I see some things off when comparing the bone structures, so I do have doubts. But, I am just one skeptical person offering an opinion. And, I would have sent them off to be compared too--just to be sure. I sooo hope one of these girls is a match.

Lion


I agree with you. I think the doe has a very delicate chisled patite bone structure and this does not match up with Amber and Michaela has softer and rounder bone structure. Too me the Doe looks almost like she is of russian or polish decent. She is very distinctive looking and I suspect someone knows exactly who she is and has choosen for whatever reason not to lay claim to her. Very sad.

mjak

[christine2448]

Thanks MJ and Lion...I too was concerned about the roundness of the faces, however, I just don't know enough to judge. I was hoping for much more input before submitting. I guess it doesn't hurt to have them look. The people at the ME's office will be able to determine easier then us just looking at pictures.


Meanwhile, let's keep hunting, someone somewhere knows something!!!!!

www.myspace.com/do_recognize_me

[christine2448]

Date: Thursday, April 19, 2007 4:47 PM
From: Suzi Dodt - MEDEX <dodts@mail.maricopa.gov>

To: caseinvestigator@charter.net

Subject: RE: Case Number 99-0305 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your interest. I will pass this information along to the
proper authorities.

-----Original Message-----
From: caseinvestigator@charter.net [caseinvestigator@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:53 PM
To: Suzi Dodt - MEDEX
Subject: [SPAM:] - Case Number 99-0305 - Sender is probably forged (SPF
Softfail)

Case Number: 99-0305
<http://www.maricopa.gov/Medex/Unidentified/search.aspx?caseNum=99-0305>
Found On: 1/27/1999
Age Range: 13-18
Gender: Female


Comments:
I would like to submit 2 possible matches for this Unidentified Doe.

Please see our discussions here:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43813

Can you please inform us if either of these Does have been submitted and if so the results? If not, do you think maybe they could be matches?

1st possible match
http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster470.htm

2nd possible match http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/garecht_michaela.html

Thank you for taking the time.

Kindest regards,
Christine Jones aka
christine2448
caseinvestigator@charter.net
www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me

[JDB]

Date: Thursday, April 19, 2007 4:47 PM
From: Suzi Dodt - MEDEX <dodts@mail.maricopa.gov>

To: caseinvestigator@charter.net

Subject: RE: Case Number 99-0305 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your interest. I will pass this information along to the
proper authorities.

-----Original Message-----
From: caseinvestigator@charter.net [caseinvestigator@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:53 PM
To: Suzi Dodt - MEDEX
Subject: [SPAM:] - Case Number 99-0305 - Sender is probably forged (SPF
Softfail)

Case Number: 99-0305
<http://www.maricopa.gov/Medex/Unidentified/search.aspx?caseNum=99-0305>
Found On: 1/27/1999
Age Range: 13-18
Gender: Female


Comments:
I would like to submit 2 possible matches for this Unidentified Doe.

Please see our discussions here:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43813

Can you please inform us if either of these Does have been submitted and if so the results? If not, do you think maybe they could be matches?

1st possible match
http://www.find-missing-children.org/Posters/poster470.htm

2nd possible match http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/garecht_michaela.html

Thank you for taking the time.

Kindest regards,
Christine Jones aka
christine2448
caseinvestigator@charter.net
www.myspace.com/do_u_recognize_me

Thank you for doing this. It might be a longshot after what I read. But stranger things have happened.

[timetravel]

it just seems so frustrating and at times, unbelievable - that in today's world of the internet, milk cartons, mass mailings, billboards, cell phone messaging, blackberries - etc. - that not one single person can identify a dead girl's face from a pic. that is almost everywhere - i feel the same about cali, too - surely someone, one person, has seen their pics who knows these girls - here we have those of us who don't know them, aren't related to them, coming up with possible matches.....there's irony here somewhere....

[amazing-sea-monkey]

A couple pages back on this thread, someone thought this could be a girl from Russia. I think it's her, no doubt about it. The facial shape, eyes, hair color, look, etc are all the same. The poster said they were certain it was this girl, and if you go to the website she posted about, you can look the girl up by name. I'd bet the farm it's her, and the poster was supposed to let us know.
I wonder what became of that lead??

[timetravel]

http://truecrimediary.com/home/
I don't know if anyone else has posted this link to the case, but its the first time i read the information that the police know who the couple were in the car with this janedoe, they said they met her in a convenience store, offerred her a ride, and she jumped out of the car....some interesting comparisons there, including the little russian girl, alice....you have to scroll down just a little to get to the post...,.

[reb]

hey thanks for posting that.. that definitely sheds a bit more light on things. i do think the guy might be lying & the woman might be covering for him... and that the girl felt afraid for some reason and jumped. having a criminal record does not put him in a good light here.
i still am not convinced by any of these pictures... i don't see any that match the facial features completely.. (although faces do change as people mature). i still have a strong hunch she is not 100& caucasian... she looks to me to be biracial.. maybe white with 1/4 hispanic or black, or maybe she is mediterranean.. french or french canadian. there is something about her features and skin tone that don't seem to be a 100% match with any of these pics. she has a more olive-y complexion, and her hair isn't light blonde.. it's more a dirty brown-blonde... (assuming that no one has changed their hair color here)...
but i wish LE would have given more information about what she said to the couple. did she talk much? what did she say? what was her mood like? did she seem anxious, upset, innocent, jaded.. did she appear to be trying to escape something, or like she was just drifting? did she have an ACCENT....?? did she seem intelligent?? etc.

[KarlK]

i still have a strong hunch she is not 100& caucasian... she looks to me to be biracial.. maybe white with 1/4 hispanic or black, or maybe she is mediterranean.. french or french canadian.

Lol, I'm from Maine and know many French Canadians, they look no different than other white people from northern European stock, I have yet to meet one who'd have olive skin. The majority of those I know actually have blue eyes and very light skin. Their ancestors came from northern France, especially Normandy and Flanders where people are of Celtic and Germanic stock, not Mediterranean. They have been in North America since the 1600's so occasionally some will have darker features inherited from a distant Native forebear but those are no more or no less common than here.

People from France itself are usually not that dark either but that depends on which area of France they are from or where their family originated from elsewhere in Europe. Since the 1700's France has seen a steady flow of political refugees from all over Europe and has become somewhat of a melting pot (that partially explains why so many French people have German or Italian names, another reason is France having invaded their original homelands) so there is no real physical "French type" (as opposed to Irish type, Nordic type or Mexican type for example), some feature that would be shared by a majority of French people. They are really a mixed bag now, but when the first French people immigrated to North America they came from areas where the ethnic stock was practically the same as that of southern England.

Back to the unknown girl now. Personally I think she is Caucasian but that bruising and swelling on her face gives her the appearance of having more exotic features. This being said there may that hint of Oriental features that is often found on Russian or Ukrainian people, a legacy of Genghis Kahn's armies I assume. This wouldn't necessarily mean she's the missing girl from Russia, after all there are many people of Ukrainian descent in the US.

[ladymemac]

Hi, Michelle here, the writer of the True Crime Diary post. Just wanted to add that when I talked to the detective about this case I asked if there was ever a mention of Jane Doe having an accent and he said no. That said, I did get the feeling that they weren't totally satisfied with the information they got from the couple.

[timetravel]

michelle - when was the last time they spoke with the couple? When you talked to the detective, did he mention anything at all the couple told him that the girl said? She must have said a few words - this is sooooo frustrating!!!!

[phenolred]

this is another one of those cases that is driving me crazy. I just can't believe nobody has claimed this girl. One thing I would like to add is it seems like her lips are swollen from the accident and weren't really that big when she was alive. I wish they could do another compostite with a smaller bottom lip....

[teonspaleprincess]

I think that she is under 18, probably closer to 15. Although it says that she has plucked brows, my sisters brows are gorgeous and perfectly arched and she has never plucked them. Out of the three girls posted at the True crime site, the only one I think she resembles is the Russian girl. The chin and nose are very close.

[christine2448]

Everyone needs to remember this is an autopsy photo. It can be very decieving.

Also, as for her hair (AZ Jane Doe) ....her hair is listed as "blonde hair with brown roots"...so her hair is brown but dyed blonde.

[christine2448]

http://truecrimediary.com/home/
I don't know if anyone else has posted this link to the case, but its the first time i read the information that the police know who the couple were in the car with this janedoe, they said they met her in a convenience store, offerred her a ride, and she jumped out of the car....some interesting comparisons there, including the little russian girl, alice....you have to scroll down just a little to get to the post...,.

Thanks for the link...I have never seen this article.

It mentions Jessie Kay Peters...was her body ever found?? (Off to research that)

[christine2448]

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewPoster&caseNum=817080&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

I found this, through a link, but when I go to missingkids.com I can't find her when searching....also, I am so busy at work today, was out sick yesterday :( Having trouble getting time to research this. I will try to look more into it today, if someone else finds anything on Jessie Peters, please post :)


ETA
The Daily Breeze – July 14, 2006

Former Hermosa girl was 'most innocent of victims'



Jessie Kay Peters was 14 years old when she disappeared in 1996. Recently, her family learned she had been brutally raped and killed.

By Larry Altman
Daily Breeze

For 10 years, Jessie Kay Peters' whereabouts remained a mystery. The blond-haired, blue-eyed girl who spent her first 12 years of life in Hermosa Beach vanished March 29, 1996. She was just 14. "She didn't take any clothes," said her aunt, Charylene McCain. "She didn't take anything with her."

Family members circulated fliers and posted Jessie's photograph on national Web sites. Her mother, convinced that Jessie ran away, held out hope. But some family members suspected the worst. "I thought maybe she might be alive out there somewhere," said her grandmother, Claire Arvanetes. "I always had that hope she would some day come back. (But) I just knew somebody took her against her will."

For a decade, there were no clues in Jessie's disappearance. And then, as a gruesome murder trial unfolded in recent months for a man and a woman charged with killing another teenage girl in Riverside County, Jessie's family learned what happened to her in graphic, horrifying detail.

Prosecutors believe Jessie died the same day she vanished. Evidence revealed that the couple kidnapped Jessie, raped and killed her for sexual gratification, dismembered her body and dumped her remains off Dana Point, Riverside County Deputy District Attorney Michael Rushton said. "The evidence is very compelling that they killed Jessie Peters," Rushton said. "This girl was simply chosen out of the blue. This little girl did nothing. She was essentially lured way from her home under a false pretense and held captive and murdered.

"She is the most innocent of victims." Prosecutors believe Michael Forrest Thornton, 50, and Janeen Marie Snyder, 26, targeted Jessie as part of a sexual obsession with teenage girls. She is believed to be their first victim, at least the first one prosecutors know about, Rushton said.

Convicted pair worked as a team

Thornton and Snyder were convicted in March of torturing and killing Michelle Curran, a 16-year-old girl who disappeared April 4, 2001, on her way to school in Las Vegas. Curran's nude body was found April 22, 2001, in a horse trailer in Rubidoux in Riverside County. Ligature marks on her wrists and ankles revealed she had been strapped to harnesses and equestrian equipment before she was shot once in the head.

Thornton and Snyder, prosecutors said at trial, worked as a team, luring young girls, feeding them drugs and having sex with them. Two young women -- 14 and 15 years old at the time -- testified that the couple also tortured and sexually assaulted them.

Rushton said in an interview that the couple held Curran captive in the trailer for 14 days, then killed her as part of a sexual fantasy. "They are heinous criminals," the prosecutor said. "They are sexual deviants."

Jessie apparently met the same fate as Curran, prosecutors now believe. During the trial's penalty phase, a psychiatric expert who examined Snyder testified the woman told her she lured Jessie away from her Glendora home at Thornton's direction, Rushton said. "They held her at gunpoint and took her up to Lake Arrowhead, where they handcuffed her to a bed," Rushton said. "Thornton raped her, and they drowned her (in a bathtub), dismembered her and disposed of her in the ocean."

Thornton's former wife, Pamela Bibens, testified during the trial that she overheard her husband discussing how to dispose of a young girl's body parts. Bibens said she heard Thornton say he killed the girl and cut up her body. Bibens told the jury she and Thornton lived in a Lake Arrowhead mobile home. Her husband told her to go into her bedroom and "don't come out whatever you hear," according to trial coverage in the Riverside Press-Enterprise.

Bibens said she later heard her husband and Snyder talk about how long it took for the girl to drown, and how to weigh down body parts. The girl was Jessie, whose mother, Cheryl Peters, had worked for Thornton as a beautician in one of his hair salons. Thornton and Bibens owned a chain, The Fixx, with locations in the San Gabriel Valley and the Inland Empire. Snyder, a troubled friend of Thornton's daughter, moved in with the family.

Jessie lived with aunts in the South Bay and attended Hermosa Valley School, but wanted to live with her mother in Glendora. At 12, she moved. Two years later, she was gone. "We were hoping and praying she would call and come home," said her aunt, Candance Garcia. "We couldn't figure out what happened to her. It was so frustrating. I prayed and asked God, 'Bring her home. We want her back.' There was no word."

Time passed. In 2001, prosecutor Rushton and investigator Larry Lansford began looking into the Curran murder. They heard rumors of the death of another girl, one whose mother had worked for Thornton.

'What an evil thing to do'

Jessie's family learned the details about Jessie's slaying toward the end of the five-month trial. "I was shocked. I was mortified. I felt pain in my heart because of what they did to her," said Jessie's grandmother, Arvanetes. "How horrible those people were. What an evil thing to do." "I think if I didn't have God in my life, I don't think I would be able to handle it," said Garcia, Jessie's aunt.

McCain described her niece as a wonderful kid who loved her older brother, Robert, and going to school. "I went to her class at Hermosa Valley. Her desk was separated from all the rest of the kids," McCain said. "She was smiling really big. I said, 'Why are you here?' She said, 'Because I was bugging all the kids.' "

Her grandmother recalls attending church, taking walks and reading the Bible together. "I remember she loved flowers. She loved animals. She loved fireflies. She loved being with me," Arvanetes said. "She was very beautiful and very attractive."

Glendora police Sgt. Ted Groszewski said his department, which took the original missing person report, will meet soon with Riverside County investigators to discuss the evidence against Thornton and Snyder in Jessie's case. Glendora detectives will review the case with the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office to determine whether murder charges will be filed.

Some of Jessie's family members will speak Oct. 24, when Thornton and Snyder are sentenced in Riverside County court. A jury recommended in May that Thornton and Snyder receive the death penalty. Rushton said the testimony about Jessie helped persuade jurors to choose death. "We just feel such sorrow for the family of Jessie Peters," Rushton said. "They were completely victimized. It's obvious they suffered a great deal."

Knowing they will never see Jessie again, her family members Saturday will hold a memorial service at the Covina Assembly of God Church. Charles Biller, the church's pastor, said he will offer encouragement and comfort. "The girl was a Christian. She had been a member of the church two years prior to the incident," Biller said. "They have that assurance and comfort knowing that she is with the Lord."

Family members later will pray and release doves from a boat off Dana Point. "There is some closure in some way," Garcia said. "At least we know now what happened. "For me, I have more peace about it. I know that we are all destined for not this life anyway. We are all going to die and we are all going to be in heaven if we have Jesus in our heart.

"There's no way, without the Lord in our life, I could have a peace like this knowing what happened."


Hermosa Beach News (http://www.hbneighborhood.org/1%20HBNA%20DailyBre2105.htm)




OK, People, does this mean they NEVER recovered her body??????

[JusticeForAll]

After reading this article, I have so many questions. Did the police ever go to the conveniece store to check out the couple's story? Has her picture ever been posted at the store? Surely if it was true, someone would have remembered this girl hanging around. Did they check out the stores surveillance video? Have they interviewed the woman again? Maybe, if she is no longer together with the man, she may be willing to tell the truth. Was there any evidence of the girl being sexually assaulted? Did they check for DNA underneath her fingernails? Did the man have any scratches on his body or any indication that he had been involved in a struggle?

[ladymemac]

All good questions, and I had those and a million more when I talked to the detective. He was really pleasant but to be honest I got the sense that this is a very cold case, meaning it was not at all on his mind and he couldn't recall much without the file in front of him (it was difficult to track him down and when he did call back he didn't have that particular cold case file in front of him). Here's what I can tell you - they are suspicious of the couple but don't have enough to charge them with, man did have a record but detective couldn't remember exactly what for, Jane Doe was alleged to have said very little and did not give her name, no accent mentioned, when I asked if in his opinion she was closer to 13 or 18 he said 18. Where she fell, or was pushed, is very near a large reservation and I asked if they thought there was any connection there and the answer was "no."

I'm waiting for a call back from someone who is allegedly more involved on a day to day basis with the case, so I'll let everyone know if I find out more. Frustrating case.

[rhyno1974]

What about her clothes. There is no mention or pics of what she had on. And the broach that it shows in the composite, was she actually wearing that?

[timetravel]

if they call you please find out even what little the girl said - whatever few words it may be......hopefully this person willhave the case file in front - is there anyway to get anything from the file sent to you? emailed - faxed, anything? when he thought she was closer to eighteen does that mean he saw her while she was still alive or right after she died? what about the hospital where she was taken? questions questions.....and never any answers....grrrr...

thank you so much though for sharing what you do know...its more than we've found anywhere else!!!!

[reb]

Karl K. you are right about the French in Canada.. I just thought it might be a slight possibility. And I also agree that a person's looks in the post-mortem state- and autopsy photos- can be deceiving. Justice-- Great question, did they check the girl for signs of a struggle (including her fingernails?) probably hard to tell since she fell from a moving vehicle... but you never know. Also.. great idea about trying to talk to the woman to see if she is still with the guy. If she is not, it would be VERY interesting to see what she has to say now! It could be very different...

[KarlK]

Karl K. you are right about the French in Canada.. I just thought it might be a slight possibility.

It remains a possibility, she could be French Canadian just as well as from anywhere in North America. Unfortunately it is often impossible to tell if someone is from Canada unless they tell you because they have no obvious accent, they talk like Kiefer Sutherland or Dan Ackroyd. Some French Canadians have an accent but it can be mistaken for a regional North American English accent, it doesn't sound like a European French accent at all.

Even if she didn't talk that much to the couple I think they would have noticed a foreign accent, so I tend to think she was either from the US or Canada.

[christine2448]

POST 190 OK, People, does this mean they NEVER recovered her body??????

Please read my post #190...it's like y'all just 'stepped right over it'..am I misunderstanding this article? The body was not found? Could this doe be her? Or am I just missing something?????

[KarlK]

Please read my post #190...it's like y'all just 'stepped right over it'..am I misunderstanding this article? The body was not found? Could this doe be her? Or am I just missing something?????

If you're referring to Jessie the article seems to be saying that her body was cut up and disposed of in the ocean.

[christine2448]

If you're referring to Jessie the article seems to be saying that her body was cut up and disposed of in the ocean.

That is what the criminals said. How can it be known for sure? That is what I was asking did I miss something? Did they recover her body/parts/any evidence?

[LionRun]

I don't think that Jessie Peters is the unidentified Princes Doe from Pinal County. But, the descriptions are extremely similar. In addition, it was reportedly a couple who had Princess Doe in their car. Michael Forrest Thornton, 50, and Janeen Marie Snyder, 26 committed known murders of girls with very similar descriptions in both 1996 and April of 2001. What were they doing in between, I wonder? Is it possible that they also abducted Princess Doe from Pinal county?

A couple consisting of a man and a younger woman may not have been on the radar for police at that time. They may not have focused on them and instead possibly believed them. Had it been two men that had her in their car before she jumped or was pushed LE may have investigated more thoroughly. If it were a man and a woman old enough to have had a daughter the age of Princess Doe they may even looked further in case that couple were the parents of the young girl/woman.

How can we find out more about the couple that last saw Princess Doe before sh jumped/was pushed from that car? If I learn that it was an older man with a younger woman, I will become very interested.

Lion

[phenolred]

yes it would be very interesting to talk to the convenience store workers. Were she last was. And NOBODY just Jumps from a moving car on the highway without something happening to make them fear for their lives and thinking at least I might have a chance if I just JUMP out, instaed of staying in the car and SURELY DIEING!!!!! I cna't believe they just took their word for it that they were just giving her a ride. Look at the Karla Holmolka case , they were a Nice looking young couple, who went out and abducted young females to take home and rape and murder together. Karla lured them in and into the car, and the husband would rape and torture them and them kill them. Could it have been something like this?

[christine2448]

I thought I had read someone here as actually talking to the investigators? If so, maybe they could list all of the questions you all have and present them?

[reb]

yes!! great idea!!! another thought.. has she been compared to all the children's photos out there who were abducted by their parents..? maybe there's a photo of her out there as a baby or young toddler... or maybe it was never reported to begin with.. the mother/father died? was transient? in prison? didn't want to bring the attention of LE to themselves? didn't care? maybe the abducting parent is in mexico, or dead, or a drug addict... and this is why the girl was somewhat transient & slipped through the cracks.. & no one knew her enough to miss her? (because she was kept underground for many years..?) just a thought.
remember recently the teenage girl who was found in florida, whose father let her leave (or maybe she ran away?) because he was feeling guilty for kidnapping her, telling her her mom didn't didn't love her.. and the girl ended up in florida somehow, and eventually was arrested for something minor and they discovered she had been a missing child... i wonder if this goes on far more than we think.. those kidnapped kids do grow up.. what happens to them all...? surely many of their lives are totally dysfunctinal by then. if that girl hadn't gotten in trouble with the law, she may have never been found or discovered that her mom had been looking for her all these years.

maybe AZ jane doe's life was something like this......?

i still have this feeling she was just about to escape a situation she was imprisoned in for her whole life when she died. another thought.... perhaps she was sold off to someone unscrupulous in a black market adoption as a baby/young girl (think sharon marshall.. i think this has been said already). if there is a child predator out there who had her hidden, or moving around all the time, for many years.. and she had just escaped from him.. then he may still be out there somewhere, and of course, he isn't going to report her missing.
did they check her for any signs of sexual abuse? i also wonder if they checked to see if she'd ever been pregnant.

about the convenience store.... i am also wondering if they talked to those who were working there that day. did they see anyone drop her off? is there a bus stop nearby? did she just appear there all of a sudden? what was her behavior like and how long was she there? did she ask anyone for money or anything else?

[timetravel]

here then are the questions i would love to have answered:

1. what, specically, did the girl say? I don't care if it was three words, three sentences, or a long rambling litany - just want to know to the best of folk's memories, what exactly she said.

2. who, exactly, spoke with her - the couple, the man, the woman, anyone in the convience store? did she start the exchange or did they?

3. did she appear to them tired, distressed, calm what? did she have any apparent injuries on her before the "accident"?

4. was her head shaved a bit in the hospital, and then the front part swept over to cover the shaving?

5. how far back was her trail taken>? where was she before being in the convenience store?

6. did they put up any posters in the store, in the area, with her picture or sketches of her asking if anyone had seen that girl? if so, were there any responses?

7. was her picture compared with all known pics of girls in that age group who have been reported missing, kidnapped - do they continue to compare it?

8. could the couple agree to take a lie detector? what about sodium pentathol or whatever the truth serum is.....just clutching at straws here, but damn, this case is so frustrating!!!!!

[reb]

i know, it certainly is. i wish we knew if there was someone who actively worked on this case and exhausted every lead, or if it was just quickly forgotten about. there is so little information about it!

[timetravel]

does anyone have any questions to add to my list, by the by?

[LisainWV]

timetravel.....

there have been questions here before about her clothing and the mystery brooch that showed up in the reconstruct. So, maybe a question about what she was wearing when found. If we can't get an "exact" description, I'm curious as to whether she was dressed like a typical teen or was it more of a "prostitute look" (forgive me for that one, if she was in that line of work, I'm sure it was a forced situation).

Also, did she have a purse with her at the convenience store? Did she buy anything (they may not remember a purse unless she actually made a purchase)?

If she didn't buy anything, what was she doing? Using a restroom, looking for a phone....?

Did the couple who picked her up actually enter the store? If not, what were they doing?

Word them as you see fit or discard them, whatever. These are just some of my questions.

[christine2448]

Is there someone here that can present this questions?

[reb]

i posed a ton of questions but they are all in my posts. we can always send all of them to the mariposa forensic unit.... and ask them directly if they have been looked into. i think i wrote someone from there a while back, saying there was a thread on AZ doe- and a group of people discussing the case, if anyone (who may have been working on it) wanted to have a look.. or join in, if that is possible.

[timetravel]

that sounds like a great idea reb - anyone with an "in" with anyone in the mariposa forensic unit? or someone in the law enforcement division? if not, if i can get an email i'll be glad to give it a go - i'll do my best to compile all questions as sanely as possible so its not too overwhelming....let me know...

[christine2448]

Nothing against anyone at all, but I suggest Reb make a call, or choose someone to do it, since Reb brought this case to WS.

I suggest that whoever is going to make the call

Prints this thread out and compose an email with all questions, possible matches listed here, links to anything pertinent, then use this email as your guide for phone call.... Then I'd call

Maricopa County Medical Examiner
Forensic Science Center
701 West Jefferson
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Ph: 602-506-3322 Fax: 602-506-1546

explaining that you are a volunteer case investigator for an online crime board. You are interested in talking to the lead investigator for case # blah blah blah...once you get the investigator to talk to you explain that you and a group of volunteer investigators have been discussing this case and you'd like to #1 submit information (there are several possible matches in this thread, have all that together and ready to give info) and see what they'd be willing to answer for you/discuss with you? Many questions given here may lead to more clues or things they have not thought of! Then also ask for their email telling them you will send them everything discussed via phone by email, have this email prepared ahead of time with all questions, pictures, possible matches, and a link to this thread. Invite them to join our discussion.

Just idears :D

[reb]

wouldn't it be bizarre if the man & woman turned out to be her real parents, that she was sent back to?.. or a couple that she was sent to live with.. and for whatever reason, she did not want to be with them.... i.e., what if she KNEW the couple she took a ride with? maybe she was dropped off or sent to meet them there... or, maybe she was told they were going to take her somewhere but then after she got in the car, they told her they were going somewhere else... and she said NO WAY!-- and jumped... hhmmm....

here's a question... how did the cops find the man & woman in the first place? did they call the police after the girl fell/jumped? did they turn around and try to help her after she jumped...?????? it seems to me.. that if someone fell/jumped out of your car,, you would not just keep driving!!!! and since it appears that they did (just keep driving).... then doesn't that make them extremely suspect??? if someone fell/jumped from my car, even if they were a hitchhiker i just picked up (which i would not do anyway)... i would certainly be concerned if they might be dying on the side of the road.

this is what makes me think that

1) they picked her (as a stranger) up for unscrupulous reasons.. or
2) they already knew her, and came there to get her.. but when she jumped, they did not want to get LE involved since they were involved in some dirty business.

(just brainstorming)

[reb]

OK... i complied a huge list of our questions & sent it in.. christine.. didn't you already submit a couple matches, and they wrote back thanking you?
i hope it's not completely annoying for them to have someone send a long list of questions (instead of answers!) i am also guessing they can't really discuss the case publicly.. but who knows.

[timetravel]

reb - can you possibly show us the huge list of our questions? Just as a reference point when or if you get a reply.......thanks - and thanks for doing that....

[reb]

i got a nice letter from suzi dodt (maricopa med ex), saying everything we've thought of has already been looked into, and that they can't discuss it publicly... i will post it here if she gives me permission to do so...

[reb]

sure, timetravel- here's what i sent in.. all stuff that they have aleady covered.. (glad to know that!):

<<Did she have a purse with her at the convenience store? Did she buy anything (they may not remember a purse unless she actually made a purchase)?

If she didn't buy anything, what was she doing? Using a restroom, looking for a phone....?

Did anyone see someone drop her off, or did she just appear?

Did the couple who picked her up actually enter the store? If not, what were they doing?

What, specically, did the girl say? I don't care if it was three words, three sentences, or a long rambling litany - just want to know to the best of folk's memories, what exactly she said.

Who, exactly, spoke with her - the couple, the man, the woman, anyone in the convience store? did she start the exchange or did they?

Did she appear to them tired, distressed, anxious, calm what? did she have any apparent injuries on her before the "accident"?

Did she appear to be headed somewhere, or escaping something/someone, or just wandering, lost?

Did she act innocent, jaded, street-wise (or not)?

Did she speak intelligently? (note: i.e., ws she well-spoken, or did she mumble... or did the way she talked have any indication of her intelligence, or did she seem to have any mental deficiency... not that you can always tell this by the way a person talks!)

Did she have an accent?

Did she buy anything? Was she asking anyone for money, or anything else?

Was her head shaved a bit in the hospital, and then the front part swept over to cover the shaving?

How far back was her trail taken.. where was she before being in the convenience store?

Did they ever talk with anyone in the store about what they saw?

Was the video surveillance camera checked?

Did they put up any posters in the store, in the area, with her picture or sketches of her asking if anyone had seen that girl? if so, were there any responses?

Was her picture compared with all known pics of girls in that age group who have been reported missing, kidnapped - do they continue to compare it?

Were her fingernails checked for DNA.. or were there any other signs of a struggle (aside from injuries form jumping from the car?)

Did the man have any scratches, bruises, or any other indication of a struggle?

Could the couple agree to take a lie detector?
We are wondering.. if the woman is no longer with the man.... she may be willing to reveal more (if there is more to tell).

During the autopsy was she checked for sexual abuse/assault, or if she had ever given birth?

Any drugs in her system? >>

[JDB]

i got a nice letter from suzi dodt (maricopa med ex), saying everything we've thought of has already been looked into, and that they can't discuss it publicly... i will post it here if she gives me permission to do so...

So they have already check the DNA with ambers and michella's

[timetravel]

so are you saying there was basically nothing in her email to add to what we (what little we)_already know? Is there a chance they have answers to some of those questions but because its an ongoing investigation they can't give us detectives the answers? oh so frustrating!!!!!

[timetravel]

by the way - if nothing else, at least we are thorough lol!!!!

[missacorah]

From the morgue photo it looks like to me that the girls right hand side of the lip (our left as we look at her) gives a good indication of what her true lip size.shape could have been like. In that aspect Im thinking of Michaela Garecht too as she has quite distinctive shaped lips in a similar style.

Is it certain that the couple travelling with her were spoken to by police? Surely they couldnt have got away with just saying she didnt say anything?

[christine2448]

I think the contact should have been done via phone, JMO. Then questions could have been asked and tips could have been given, I always try to make initial contact by phone, then follow up with email. Just a suggestion.

[reb]

here's her e-mail:

<<Thank you for all of your interest! I am aware of the threads going on
about this case. Unfortunately, there is only certain information that
can be released at this time, but police have actively pursued all
avenues of this case since it occurred. The questions you have listed
have all been topics that police have already addressed in their
investigation. Due to the nature of the investigation, many of the
details must remain protected so as not to jeopardize the potential for
future charges, court proceedings, and/or prosecution.

(and in the 2nd e-mail-)
...And thanks to everyone for taking interest and trying to help out! >>

Suzi D., Investigator
Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office

...so there you have it, guys. they have already explored everything we have talked about (hey, are we good or what? ;))... but they cannot discuss it or give out any info,, which is kind of what i figured. maybe to us it appears that no one is working on a case just because we're looking at it from the outside and there is not much information given... but in many cases, there is probably someone- or several people- who have been actively working on it day and night and would love to see it solved as much as anyone.

christine-- good idea about calling, i probably would have if i had a true 'tip' to offer... but, don't know if i would consider potential matches or questions a tip, though... unless it was a very obscure potential match that isn't listed on a missing persons site anywhere. i think we can be assured that they are working hard on this and hopefully someday all their work will pay off and they'll get a break in the case. but you guys have really given it your all on this one!

[christine2448]

here's her e-mail:

<<Thank you for all of your interest! I am aware of the threads going on
about this case. Unfortunately, there is only certain information that
can be released at this time, but police have actively pursued all
avenues of this case since it occurred. The questions you have listed
have all been topics that police have already addressed in their
investigation. Due to the nature of the investigation, many of the
details must remain protected so as not to jeopardize the potential for
future charges, court proceedings, and/or prosecution.

(and in the 2nd e-mail-)
...And thanks to everyone for taking interest and trying to help out! >>

Suzi D., Investigator
Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office

...so there you have it, guys. they have already explored everything we have talked about (hey, are we good or what? ;))... but they cannot discuss it or give out any info,, which is kind of what i figured. maybe to us it appears that no one is working on a case just because we're looking at it from the outside and there is not much information given... but in many cases, there is probably someone- or several people- who have been actively working on it day and night and would love to see it solved as much as anyone.

christine-- good idea about calling, i probably would have if i had a true 'tip' to offer... but, don't know if i would consider potential matches or questions a tip, though... unless it was a very obscure potential match that isn't listed on a missing persons site anywhere. i think we can be assured that they are working hard on this and hopefully someday all their work will pay off and they'll get a break in the case. but you guys have really given it your all on this one!

Hiya Reb, thanks for making the contact and posting for all of us. Can you email her back with the potential matches and ask for confirmation that these have been eliminated? The answer is just too generic for me. I want specifics, we NEED to know if these matches are/have seriously been looked at...yes?

[kaylenbabysims]

Hi!!! I just wanted to say who the heck would you write, and to complain about devulging too much information on a case???????????? I know thats probably the way the stupid laws are but ya know alot of murders might be solved if the victim is identified!! GRRRR I've been following this case for awhile, and feel so awful this poor girl isnt identified...... I'm just not sure whats legal or not legal to do..(such as while driving on long trips are ya allowed to leave flyers at a Rest stops???)...I dont want to get into trouble.....

[christine2448]

Hi!!! I just wanted to say who the heck would you write, and to complain about devulging too much information on a case???????????? I know thats probably the way the stupid laws are but ya know alot of murders might be solved if the victim is identified!! GRRRR I've been following this case for awhile, and feel so awful this poor girl isnt identified...... I'm just not sure whats legal or not legal to do..(such as while driving on long trips are ya allowed to leave flyers at a Rest stops???)...I dont want to get into trouble.....

Of course you can put flyers at reststops...I would not use the autopsy photo, I would use the artist renditions.

[kaylenbabysims]

oh okay!! Thats great!! Thanks for the response! I appreciate it.

[JDB]

Hiya Reb, thanks for making the contact and posting for all of us. Can you email her back with the potential matches and ask for confirmation that these have been eliminated? The answer is just too generic for me. I want specifics, we NEED to know if these matches are/have seriously been looked at...yes?

I agree that answer sucks. They could at least let reb know they have checked out Michella and Amber.

[pedinurse]

Hiya Reb, thanks for making the contact and posting for all of us. Can you email her back with the potential matches and ask for confirmation that these have been eliminated? The answer is just too generic for me. I want specifics, we NEED to know if these matches are/have seriously been looked at...yes?


I wonder if they seriously checked the girl against Michaela Garecht though. Wouldn't they have notified her mother when they were doing the check? I have read the myspace page posts from her mother and that other person who has the site that is in communication with the mother - it doesn't sound like she's been notified of a check.

[timetravel]

if the "certain information": is stuff that only her "killer" would know, then i can see why it would need to be withheld - otherwise, i can't see how our knowing answers to some of these questions could possibly hurt their "case" - its good to know they are actively working on it - but - you'd think if they are aware of these threads on the girl, they might pop in a post to let us know its being worked on - call me naive - but i believe some of us are very good at this stuff and could be more useful if we were let in the loop possibly - again, as long as the case against a possible suspect weren't totally compromised....

[missacorah]

I too have read comments from her mother that doubt the girl is Michaela.

[texasgirl]

This case is really intriguing!! I have been reading through since last night but most of the doe network links don't work so I've had a hard time looking at all of the people you guys have suggested....from what I've seen, none of the people stand out more than others.

I'm really curious about the clothing though. You would think they'd at least release THAT!

[LisainWV]

This case is really intriguing!! I have been reading through since last night but most of the doe network links don't work so I've had a hard time looking at all of the people you guys have suggested....from what I've seen, none of the people stand out more than others.

I'm really curious about the clothing though. You would think they'd at least release THAT!


texasgirl.....when you try to look at the doe network links, make sure the address at the top of your page has .org, instead of the .us it used to be. You can just pop up there, highlight it and change it.

[mjak]

I am beginning to believe their is a lot more to this case then law enforcement has released. I do not buy that a couple just happened to pick this girl up at a convience store and gave her a ride and she never told then her name and then she just happened to leap from the car. I am sure LE has a better idea of what happened but inorder to preserve the case has to keep it quiet. I have often wondered if LE is certain she died from injuries sustanined from her leap from the car or is it possible she was allready in an injured state and then thrown from the car resulting in futher injury? have the couple in the car taken lie detector tests?

mjak

[reb]

i know, i know, guys... but as we've been told, everything we have mentioned, they are aware of and have already checked out.. so if a match was made they might have taken her off the site. i honestly doubt that any of the girls you guys mentioned are her... i know that post-mortem photos look different (plus, she was injured). but they just don't look enough like her to me (still good sleuthing though!) so, even if they hadn't thought of something that we came up with, they would have seen it here, and probably checked by now.. and whther it was or wasn't a match, it's against their policy to discuss it publicly. i dunno... has there ever been a med ex person (or person in a similar position) on this site? i'm sure with ongoing investigations things are very, very confidential and they have to be tight-lipped about it all.. and if they do know more about the case or the mysterious couple there's probably good reasons why they can't reveal it.

but yeah, it IS frustrating.. but remember we are just volunteer 'sleuthers' who do this in our free time.. and they are the full-time paid experts! so i think we should have faith that they are doing all they can.

doesn't mean we still can't keep trying to figure it out though.

i too hope this girl eventually gets a name... i just have a feeling she has a story to tell.

[reb]

regarding michaela.. on the charley project, the 4th photo is actually the only one i've seen that really resembles her (IMO).. the only thing is... she would be around 20 in '99 (since she was 9 in '88).. and they say jane doe was 18 at most. plus, since michaela's case is pretty well-known.. i would think that she'd be one of the first they would check. really good try, though...!

[timetravel]

i agree reb - i actually don't think it would be someone so obvious......

[ihadcabinfever]

i know, i know, guys... but as we've been told, everything we have mentioned, they are aware of and have already checked out.. so if a match was made they might have taken her off the site. i honestly doubt that any of the girls you guys mentioned are her... i know that post-mortem photos look different (plus, she was injured). but they just don't look enough like her to me (still good sleuthing though!) so, even if they hadn't thought of something that we came up with, they would have seen it here, and probably checked by now.. and whther it was or wasn't a match, it's against their policy to discuss it publicly. i dunno... has there ever been a med ex person (or person in a similar position) on this site? i'm sure with ongoing investigations things are very, very confidential and they have to be tight-lipped about it all.. and if they do know more about the case or the mysterious couple there's probably good reasons why they can't reveal it.

but yeah, it IS frustrating.. but remember we are just volunteer 'sleuthers' who do this in our free time.. and they are the full-time paid experts! so i think we should have faith that they are doing all they can.

doesn't mean we still can't keep trying to figure it out though.

i too hope this girl eventually gets a name... i just have a feeling she has a story to tell.

Yes , They have been here . This Agency in particular is very nice and they are very thorough. They responded right away. I noticed your email reply and smiled.

You all here have been doing a good job here. I think they are just being tight lipped because they are pizzed at the circumstances , remember we see a picture and a story , they have the real girl in their custody. I am guessing they are determined to see this through to the end.

Imagine how angry they must have been....She is so young.

[JDB]

Any more news on this one?

[timetravel]

I think we all care deeply about this young girl without a name - who was still alive for a time but then died - esp.l when we know there is information out there but we have no access to it and feel like we can't do much other then sift through pics of missing girls....

[kaylenbabysims]

I had another question.. and that was about her teeth.. I wasnt sure if it was covered.. Curious to know if they were crooked? huge? over bite? fillings? Wish they had a picture!!!

[timetravel]

I DON'T SEE WHY THAT INFORMATION COULDN'T BE RELEASED....REB? aNY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

[texasgirl]

Hey i'm kinda excited to see what his reply is going to be!!! (neat looking over his work)

I am too....I found his website on another thread here. Very interesting!

Ya know, I am very skeptical when it comes to things like this. However, I believe that doing something is better than doing nothing. Not to mention, I've been reading his website for days now....I'd just like to know what his thoughts are as he is one interesting person!

I just pray that this poor girl is identified.

[timetravel]

its worth a shot....if anything comes up on it, please post it here....has anyone looked into the teeth question??

[kaylenbabysims]

I wrote them.. I was hoping that someone who chatted with them often might get a little more information :)

[timetravel]

let me know if you get an answer kaylen....i haven't spoken to them - left it up to Reb.....

[richandfamous]

Hi guys.

I was doing some "what-if" scenarios the other day on this case. I wonder if this girl could be Jaycee Lee Dugard (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dugard_jaycee.html). I realize that Jaycee would be on the high end of the estimated age, but...

The hairline and hair color seem close.
Same eye color
Same jawline and chin
Same nose.

Any thoughts?

Mike

didn't I read somewhere on here that AZ doe was picked up by two ppl at a service station...well, Jaycee Dugard was supposedly abducted by a man and woman. Are there pic or anything of the ppl that picked up AZ doe to compare to the drawing of the suspects in the Jaycee Dugard case???

also, the hairline in the AZ doe looks like half of her head was shaved for surgery or something...did anyone else see this?

[timetravel]

I don't think its Jaycee - there have been suspects in her case that i don't think are linked to the couple in the car in this case.....although it would be great if we could see a sketch or photo of the woman in the car, since jaycee's stepfather provided enough of a description for a sketch of the woman of the couple who abducted jaycee...

[christine2448]

Okay, I know many are skeptical---but I've submitted her information to Brian at www.briansprediction.com (http://www.briansprediction.com). He has a long waiting list, but I thought it was worth a shot!! Like I told him in my email, a tiny clue could help identify her.

IMO, FWIW, FYI....this guy is a geniune frootloop. He has seriously comprised a few investigations because of his stupidity. Be very wary of this site and it's contents.

[timetravel]

IMO, FWIW, FYI....this guy is a geniune frootloop. He has seriously comprised a few investigations because of his stupidity. Be very wary of this site and it's contents.

is there any evidence - solid evidence - that he has actually helped a case ...any case(s)????:doh:

[christine2448]

is there any evidence - solid evidence - that he has actually helped a case ...any case(s)????:doh:

I meant to say seriously compromised, LOL. Not that I am aware of? I think he is a nutcase. I have seen him say some stupid things. I haven't not seen anything he has written prove to be true...if it has, coincendence IMO. A total moroon.