Two Texas Mothers Who Killed Children Form Bond

[LinasK]

Wasn't sure where to file this, under Yates, Schlosser, or here:waitasec: ...

POSTED: 1:10 pm PDT October 8, 2006


DALLAS -- Two Texas women who killed their young children in cases that drew nationwide attention have formed a friendship at a state hospital, a newspaper reports.

Andrea Yates, who drowned her five children in the bathtub, and Dena Schlosser, whose baby died after she severed the girl's arms with a kitchen knife, became roommates at the Maple unit of the North Texas State Hospital after each was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

"We talk about our past, we talk about our memories, our fun memories, the things that our kids did," Schlosser told The Dallas Morning News. With the support of her family, Schlosser agreed to be interviewed several times by phone.

Yates did not want to come to the phone. But her ex-husband Rusty Yates, who still regularly visits her at the hospital in Vernon, 174 miles northwest of Dallas, said Schlosser has become a friend.
The two women will probably be in the state's care for years, remaining at Vernon or another hospital until their doctors and judges agree they can be released.


Conversations between the women often revolve around their young daughters - Mary Yates was 6 months old and Maggie Schlosser was 10 months old when they died.


Schlosser's parents, Connie and Mick Macaulay of Canada, said their daughter once tearfully called after talking with Yates.


"They'd talked a lot about Mary and Maggie," said Mick Macaulay, a mental health counselor. "They were feeling guilty, remorseful and sad."


Schlosser, 37, was already at the hospital when Yates, 42, arrived this summer. Yates drowned her children at her family home in suburban Houston in 2001 and Schlosser cut off her daughter's arms in her family home in suburban Dallas in 2004.


The women have much in common. Both were married, stay-at-home moms who followed out-of-the mainstream religious leaders. Both suffered from postpartum depression and psychosis after the birth of their daughters.
more at link:http://www.ktvu.com/news/10029063/detail.html

[bakerprune64]

Wasn't sure where to file this, under Yates, Schlosser, or here:waitasec: ...

POSTED: 1:10 pm PDT October 8, 2006


DALLAS -- Two Texas women who killed their young children in cases that drew nationwide attention have formed a friendship at a state hospital, a newspaper reports.

Andrea Yates, who drowned her five children in the bathtub, and Dena Schlosser, whose baby died after she severed the girl's arms with a kitchen knife, became roommates at the Maple unit of the North Texas State Hospital after each was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

"We talk about our past, we talk about our memories, our fun memories, the things that our kids did," Schlosser told The Dallas Morning News. With the support of her family, Schlosser agreed to be interviewed several times by phone.

Yates did not want to come to the phone. But her ex-husband Rusty Yates, who still regularly visits her at the hospital in Vernon, 174 miles northwest of Dallas, said Schlosser has become a friend.
The two women will probably be in the state's care for years, remaining at Vernon or another hospital until their doctors and judges agree they can be released.


Conversations between the women often revolve around their young daughters - Mary Yates was 6 months old and Maggie Schlosser was 10 months old when they died.


Schlosser's parents, Connie and Mick Macaulay of Canada, said their daughter once tearfully called after talking with Yates.


"They'd talked a lot about Mary and Maggie," said Mick Macaulay, a mental health counselor. "They were feeling guilty, remorseful and sad."


Schlosser, 37, was already at the hospital when Yates, 42, arrived this summer. Yates drowned her children at her family home in suburban Houston in 2001 and Schlosser cut off her daughter's arms in her family home in suburban Dallas in 2004.


The women have much in common. Both were married, stay-at-home moms who followed out-of-the mainstream religious leaders. Both suffered from postpartum depression and psychosis after the birth of their daughters.
more at link:http://www.ktvu.com/news/10029063/detail.html
Oh isn't that special that they both have a new friend:rolleyes: It's too bad that their children...WHO THEY MURDERED...will never have the opportunity to have friends.

[2sisters]

I am just glad they are having a good time. I just can not understand why they are not in jail. Schlosser, I can buy that one but yates? come on drowning kids one by one. Have you ever tried to hold down a 6 month old, let alone big kids? I will stop now, i am in the wrong forum with my ramblings.

[reb]

well, at least they feel remorse. i guess the only think left they can do to atone for the sins and prove their remorse is kill themselves- i'm sure that would make a lot of people happy. doesn't it mean anything to anyone that these women don't just go around ramdomly preying on and abusing children? they were by all accounts good mothers before these crimes, loving and caring (not neglecting or beating them) until they started going psychotic and snapped. it's not like they killed the kids for the insurance money, or out of revenge becaue their boyfriend or husband was mean to them, or because they didn't make the cheerleading team.
they were found to be insane by a court of law, and therefore sentenced to a hospital instead of jail.. because obviously they were very sick. is there anyone here who disagrees that they were very sick? esp. in andrea's case, she had a long DOCUMENTED history of serious mental problems. it's not like she just woke up one day and decided "oh, i think i'll become mentally ill today so i can kill my kids in cold blood and get away with it."

the question is, does remorse (or lack of remorse) help prove someone was mentally ill when they committed a crime? lack of it would probably mean sociopathic tendencies (and being a sociopath doesn't ncessarily mean you're a 'raving lunatic', usually these people act quite sane and normal).. or else they were so crazy they didn't even know or care they murdered their kids.
yet if they show remorse, that might lead people to believe they are more sane than insane.
people angrily accuse them of sanity because they called 911. would you rather they had NOT called 911? would it fit everyone's definition of insanity if they had taken the childrens' bodies and hid them somewhere, and made up a lie about it? that seems far more sociopathic to me than psychotic.
a person can completely lose their mind and still know to call 911, through the haze of their psychosis.

i don't know what the answer is.. but i do know that whatever was done with them, people are going to argue "they should be put to death" "no, they should be made to live and suffer"... so no matter what happens, people will never be satisfied.

[2sisters]

you prove a good point but I feel like there was def. a double standard here, if Rusty had drowned the kids he would be sitting om death row, mentally ill or not.

[Peter Hamilton]

Both of these women need to be shoved off a cliff

[reb]

2sisters-- hhmm... interesting point, do you think? i wonder if that's true. i think previously-loving fathers who kill their children and have a recorded history of obvious psychosis with delusions and hallucinations- they probably are deemed insane also & sent to a hospital. but for some reason, dads who go nuts & kill their kids usually kill themselves also (and their wives). gotta love that testosterone.

question-- did either of these women have court-ordered sterilization.. and if not,, why not? is there even such a thing anymore? if not, when did it become illegal and why?

[2sisters]

2sisters-- hhmm... interesting point, do you think? i wonder if that's true. i think previously-loving fathers who kill their children and have a recorded history of obvious psychosis with delusions and hallucinations- they probably are deemed insane also & sent to a hospital. but for some reason, dads who go nuts & kill their kids usually kill themselves also (and their wives
In some cases, yes. but you have to admit there is a double standard though when a man commits this kind of crime. In some of the caseslike that people rarealy say ' well, he was a little touched in the head, lets get him out of jail" most, myself included are ready to burn him at the stake.I recall the Riley Fox case where most of us thought Kevin killed his child, nobody questions whether he was depressed or psychotic jsut that he was a horrible monster. It really doesn't matter b/c Andrea yates, whenther she is in jail or not will be punished until the day she dies. Nobody is going to let her live comfortably, even if she is released one day.

[cynpat2000]

Both of these women need to be shoved off a cliff I agree , here they are able to form friendships and their children never will be able to.:furious: :furious: :furious: :mad: :mad: :banghead:

[Jeana (DP)]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.

[SadieMae]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.I agree with you. There is a difference. Those two women were mentally SICK, not evil. IMO. Now Susan Smith is an EVIL beyotch and I'd push her a$$ off a cliff myself.

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree with you. There is a difference. Those two women were mentally SICK, not evil. IMO. Now Susan Smith is an EVIL beyotch and I'd push her a$$ off a cliff myself.


I couldn't agree with you more~!!

[Gozgals]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.


This should be repeated, and thank you for your post Jeana.

Gozgals

[Jeana (DP)]

This should be repeated, and thank you for your post Jeana.

Gozgals


Welcome darlin! :)

[narlacat]

Both of these women need to be shoved off a cliffI'm with you.

Who cares whether they were mentally ill, they KILLED their children, that's the bottom line.

I'm all for removing the stigma of mental illness, but giving these women a pass is wrong wrong wrong.

Chopping your kids arms off and or drowning them is evil, whichever way you look at it.

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm with you.

Who cares whether they were mentally ill, they KILLED their children, that's the bottom line.

I'm all for removing the stigma of mental illness, but giving these women a pass is wrong wrong wrong.

Chopping your kids arms off and or drowning them is evil, whichever way you look at it.


No you're not. You're not at all for removing the stigma of mental illness if you think pushing them off of a cliff is the proper course of treatment. Where do you get the idea that spending your life in a state run mental institution is a "pass"??? When a person becomes mentally unstable, they are NO LONGER in control of their actions. So, how can we execute them them for someting they had absolutely no control over? Its like punishing a baby for crapping in his pants. If we're not willing to accept that this is what mental illness is, how can we "remove the stigma"??

[cappuccina]

...that clear cut....My Dad, who is a mental health professional who has been an expert witness many times in criminal cases involving sanity determinations, has said over and over again that very few people meet the legal definitions of insanity. Most harcore violent criminals are mentally ill to some extent as evidenced by the nature of what they are doing....at the very least they have violent tendencies and conduct disorders, but THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING....THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG, and choose wrong.

My Dad has said that about the only people he has encountered who meet the legal definitions of insanity would be hardcore schizophrenics, paranoid schizophrenics for example.

Andrea Yates is an interesting case because I don't know if all of her religious bull**** is a cover for her extreme anger at her situation and her husband's control, or if she is in the paranoid schiz. category...

If you had mental health folks go into any prison tomorrow and evaluate the inmates there, nearly 100% would have some type of Dx. So the quesiton becomes, which mentally ill folks are not aware of the difference between right and wrong...The folks who are truly so mentally ill as to fall within the legal definition and who are that out of touch with reality are probably less than half a percent of all people coming through the criminal justice system...

Edited to add that the vast majority of people with mental illness commit no violent crimes, whatsoever...

[cynpat2000]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly. You make a VERY good point, Jeana . the husbands should have done more. and you are right that a state run mental facility is no picnic. plus the fact they have to live with what they did.

[narlacat]

No you're not. You're not at all for removing the stigma of mental illness if you think pushing them off of a cliff is the proper course of treatment. Where do you get the idea that spending your life in a state run mental institution is a "pass"??? When a person becomes mentally unstable, they are NO LONGER in control of their actions. So, how can we execute them them for someting they had absolutely no control over? Its like punishing a baby for crapping in his pants. If we're not willing to accept that this is what mental illness is, how can we "remove the stigma"??

Don't tell me what I am or what I'm not Jeana.
I happen to have quite a few friends that suffer from mental illness and like I said I am all for removing the stigma.

These women might have got off on reasons of insanity, but were they really insane?
You and I might say yes, you'd have to be to do that....but we also know that is not always the case.
It's alot easier for these women to plead insanity than it is to face the reality of their actions.
They are alot safer in a mental institution than they are in jail and they know it.

[cappuccina]

....Jeana, in Wisconsin, where I am very familiar with the State mental health institute and the prisons (not becuase I was an inmate, but because I was a state employee, LOL!), given the choice, a mna, for sure would much rather be in the mental health institute any day. They even have an entire self-contained educaitonal system in there, where you can take classes, etc. etc.

Now for women in WI, the prison is actually more like a college dormitory, so it might be a toss-up, except that the MHI is far safer. However in other areas, yeah, you bet women would choose the MHI over prison, any day...

[Jeana (DP)]

Don't tell me what I am or what I'm not Jeana.
I happen to have quite a few friends that suffer from mental illness and like I said I am all for removing the stigma.

These women might have got off on reasons of insanity, but were they really insane?
You and I might say yes, you'd have to be to do that....but we also know that is not always the case.
It's alot easier for these women to plead insanity than it is to face the reality of their actions.
They are alot safer in a mental institution than they are in jail and they know it.


I call 'em like I see 'em darlin. My opinion stands. I don't think cure them or push them off a cliff is the way to go. Pleading guilty and spending their lives in prison is the opposite of facing their actions. Being in therapy day in and day out and having to relive a life gone horribly wrong and having someone in your face day by day by day making you go over it and over it and over it time and time again IS FACING THE REALITY of their actions. Sticking them in a prison cell and making them swallow a pill to dull them is not. Honestly, I think I would rather just be spending my time with women who sold a few drugs or stole some money rather than with women who are delusional, psychopathic killers, but that's just me. :)

[Jeana (DP)]

...that clear cut....My Dad, who is a mental health professional who has been an expert witness many times in criminal cases involving sanity determinations, has said over and over again that very few people meet the legal definitions of insanity. Most harcore violent criminals are mentally ill to some extent as evidenced by the nature of what they are doing....at the very least they have violent tendencies and conduct disorders, but THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING....THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG, and choose wrong.

My Dad has said that about the only people he has encountered who meet the legal definitions of insanity would be hardcore schizophrenics, paranoid schizophrenics for example.

Andrea Yates is an interesting case because I don't know if all of her religious bull**** is a cover for her extreme anger at her situation and her husband's control, or if she is in the paranoid schiz. category...

If you had mental health folks go into any prison tomorrow and evaluate the inmates there, nearly 100% would have some type of Dx. So the quesiton becomes, which mentally ill folks are not aware of the difference between right and wrong...The folks who are truly so mentally ill as to fall within the legal definition and who are that out of touch with reality are probably less than half a percent of all people coming through the criminal justice system...

Edited to add that the vast majority of people with mental illness commit no violent crimes, whatsoever...


Good post and I agree. My problem, I believe, is with the wording of the law itself. I think it should be changed from "not knowing the difference between right and wrong." I think that you can be guilty, but insane. I think its possible to "know" what you're doing is "legally" wrong, but "morally" right. I think that's where Yates fits in. I think in her own mind, she WAS saving the children. I have no doubt that her husband tried for a short time to get her help. I think that his "contribution" to the family was working outside the home. I think that Andrea knew she was doing a poor job as a parent. I think Andrea had the feeling that she wanted to prevent her children from having to be raised by what she considered a "substandard parent (herself)," but what would that leave them with? They wouldn't turn out "right" in her warped mind and she wanted to be sure they would go to Heaven. Andrea wasn't bathing. She wasn't eating. She was pulling out her own hair. She was, many times, unable to even speak. This is NOT a woman who was faking it so that she could get rid of her five children and plead insanity. There was no financial motive. There was no other man. There wasn't anything but her desire to save the souls of her children. What mother wouldn't do anything to accomplish that? Most of us do that by nurturing them, loving them and taking care of them. But this particular mother knew that she was incapable of that and there wasn't anyone else who could fill the role. In order for her children to be saved, she believed she had to do what she did.

[narlacat]

I call 'em like I see 'em darlin. My opinion stands. I don't think cure them or push them off a cliff is the way to go. Pleading guilty and spending their lives in prison is the opposite of facing their actions. Being in therapy day in and day out and having to relive a life gone horribly wrong and having someone in your face day by day by day making you go over it and over it and over it time and time again IS FACING THE REALITY of their actions. Sticking them in a prison cell and making them swallow a pill to dull them is not. Honestly, I think I would rather just be spending my time with women who sold a few drugs or stole some money rather than with women who are delusional, psychopathic killers, but that's just me. :)Sure you do Jeana and good for you.

I think you'll find they swallow pills in mental institutions too.
I've been to criminally insane wards and there ain't too much therapy going on there.
These kind of people are slightly beyond getting help let me tell ya.
You don't kill 5 of your children, go into therapy and 'talk it through' and get out and live a normal life.

Yep, jail's a real picnic :p

[narlacat]

Good post and I agree. My problem, I believe, is with the wording of the law itself. I think it should be changed from "not knowing the difference between right and wrong." I think that you can be guilty, but insane. I think its possible to "know" what you're doing is "legally" wrong, but "morally" right. I think that's where Yates fits in. I think in her own mind, she WAS saving the children. I have no doubt that her husband tried for a short time to get her help. I think that his "contribution" to the family was working outside the home. I think that Andrea knew she was doing a poor job as a parent. I think Andrea had the feeling that she wanted to prevent her children from having to be raised by what she considered a "substandard parent (herself)," but what would that leave them with? They wouldn't turn out "right" in her warped mind and she wanted to be sure they would go to Heaven. Andrea wasn't bathing. She wasn't eating. She was pulling out her own hair. She was, many times, unable to even speak. This is NOT a woman who was faking it so that she could get rid of her five children and plead insanity. There was no financial motive. There was no other man. There wasn't anything but her desire to save the souls of her children. What mother wouldn't do anything to accomplish that? Most of us do that by nurturing them, loving them and taking care of them. But this particular mother knew that she was incapable of that and there wasn't anyone else who could fill the role. In order for her children to be saved, she believed she had to do what she did.Well, you know what thought thought :p

And so, if every mother went around doing that, would that make it alright?

She killed her children, she didn't save them from anything.
She robbed them of their lives.
Why should she get to live hers when she took out 5 people's lives?
Women who kill are evil, whichever way we look at it, our job is to bring life into this world, not take it out.

[Jeana (DP)]

Well, you know what thought thought :p

And so, if every mother went around doing that, would that make it alright?

She killed her children, she didn't save them from anything.
She robbed them of their lives.
Why should she get to live hers when she took out 5 people's lives?
Women who kill are evil, whichever way we look at it, our job is to bring life into this world, not take it out.

No. If every mother went around and did that, it would not make it alright. INTERVENTION. There's one hell of a big word, huh???? Darlin, it doesn't have to be one way or the other way. We can stop this.

Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????

[narlacat]

No. If every mother went around and did that, it would not make it alright. INTERVENTION. There's one hell of a big word, huh???? Darlin, it doesn't have to be one way or the other way. We can stop this.

Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????
I am speechless.

[Gozgals]

First of all, I normally never speak for another or try to explain what another means, but I think I'm on the same track as Jeana.

I think what Jeana is saying is being taken way out of context and her initial premises should be read all the way from the beginning of thread.
Being locked up in a mental institution is not a picnic, in fact, neither is being held for life in a prison. Many patients of mental institutions do in fact fringe being mentally ill to avoid prison time but they are conscious of their behavior and playing the system.

True, many in the prison system do have one form of mental illness or another but this does not constitute mental illness by far. There is a wide margin of those that are truly insane. Those that are insane are usually those that are of the schizophrenic nature as Yates was and is. Many mental institutions are pure hell holes where help is not even alloted and patients just sit there doped up, and are not afforded the help they truly need. On internships, and through some personal experiences, (not myself) I had the unfortunate experinces of visiting Willowbrook Institute as a young child, what a disgrace, GA Regional Hospital and other facilities. These places are not cupcake making establishments but harsh asylums in my recollection.
Stoneybrook Instituition on Long Island was in fact a very unsafe place to be and about broke my heart when I visited a patient at the age of 10 years old. I did not see many patients that seemed to be functioning at any level and I was not in a ward where they would keep one such as A. Yates.

I think those that care/ or know those with hardcore mental diseases understand the organic nature of these problems and how hard they are to treat. It is a disorder of the mind, not one of evil. We need as a society to change and help these people before we lose more of our population.
It is not a fine line between Evil and Mental Disease. Evil is just pure evil, mental illness is a disease that needs to be stopped in its tracks, (if it can be treated or controlled) and thought of as an illness by society and those that love the ones that are suffering. The family members in these cases should have been more aware and less apathetic.

Subjects as such are the best when people agree to disagree.

Gozgals

[Jeana (DP)]

Excellent post!!!

[narlacat]

Yeah great post Godzals :)

Still, no idea what goes in criminally insane wards though.
There is notherapy going on there, who knows about Yates.

How anyone can think Yates saved her kids is beyond me.

[Gozgals]

Thanks Jeana for your thoughts.:blowkiss:

And Thank you too narlacat --

But Please don't misinterpret and ever think I feel Yates saved her kids at all by taking their lives. I wish somebody would have intervened before this tragedy occurred. It is one of the saddest cases to date.


Gozgals

[narlacat]

Thanks Jeana for your thoughts.:blowkiss:

And Thank you too narlacat --

But Please don't misinterpret and ever think I feel Yates saved her kids at all by taking their lives. I wish somebody would have intervened before this tragedy occurred. It is one of the saddest cases to date.


GozgalsI didn't misinterpret you, I wasn't referring to you.
Seemingly it is what Jeana thinks

<<Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????>>

[Masterj]

I didn't misinterpret you, I wasn't referring to you.
Seemingly it is what Jeana thinks

<<Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????>>
I think if you read all of Jeana's posts you will understand her point. I don't think Jeana thinks Andrea Yates saved her kids. I think Jeana thinks Andrea believes she saved her kids.

[Gozgals]

HI Masterj,

Yes, Andrea Yates, in her insane mind believed she was saving her children
from eternal damnation as stated. This came from her mouth and hers alone. This is why she felt the need to kill her children, but this of course is old news in this case. This is the reason she was placed in a mental institution instead of doing a lifelong stint in prison.

I doubt any treatment she receives in the institution will bring her back her sanity. Even seeing recent pictures of her, one can tell she is on various anti-psychotic drugs due to the weight gain. In the criminal insane ward of a MI, I'm sure treatment of those pts. is the last priority for the staff.
I have heard once she has medication adjustments, she is fully aware of what crimes she committed so nobody should worry that Yates is not suffering for her crimes. YET, we all know that her children suffered the most.

Gozgals

[narlacat]

I think if you read all of Jeana's posts you will understand her point. I don't think Jeana thinks Andrea Yates saved her kids. I think Jeana thinks Andrea believes she saved her kids.I read them.
Her posts confuse me at the best of times.
She doesn't explain herself very well and loses people, me included.

[reb]

the fact that everything points to the fact that she was a good mother beforehand and was so psychotic that she honestly thought she was saving her kids from damnation points to insanity more than anything i can think of. once again,, (and again & again),, the other extreme would be a mother who killed her kids for greed, or the insurance money, because the kids were getting in the way of her affair with another man, or she thought they were ugly, etc.. do you see the difference? between a sane killing and an insane one? obviously once she got medicated and snapped out of her psychosis she feels pain and remorse over it, her life is ruined. in america we show a little bit more mercy on people who truly fit the definition of insanity. (especially, when someone didn't cause their own insanity because of drug use!)

yeah, we know,, "but she still killed her kids". but she did it in a state of extreme psychosis... NOT in a normal state of mind, NOT because of money, greed, or other reasons. if she did, she'd probably get the death penalty. but she didn't, so she didn't.

that being said, i certainly despise it when any common criminal tries to use the insanity or retardation defense. but this is one of those cases that OBVIOUSLY fits the definition of insanity. she was not a conniving, scheming mother hoping to do away with her kids and pretending to be 'insane'. she was a loving, attentive mother, and her mental problems were long-standing and well-documented, and her husband and doctor & others were all witnesses to the fact!

how many more ways does this have to be spelled out before people get it??? if people want to push her off a cliff or stone her or whatever, then maybe you might be better off in a different type of society. i think a lot of the hatred towards her comes from the fact that she IS 'defective' (mentally). but in our society we make insane people pay for their crimes, but we don't consider them 100% liable because of their organic brain disease. so we put them in hospitals instead of jail. i don't think anyone thinks she's going to 'get better' and go out and lead a normal life and be a happy homemaker again. we know she's sane enough now to realize the enormity of her crimes.

this isn't an easy issue... but i think our justice system does the best it can in this situation. you all should save your hatred for the SANE people who neglect, abuse & kill their kids (or others) for stupid, selfish reasons.

one more note-- i think a lot of people have more hate for someone like her, the cuter the kids are. try to put that issue aside and look at the logical facts here. getting all emotional over the kids' cuteness has nothing to do with the issue here. yes, they were cute, and happy & healthy- and there's a million people out there who would have gladly adopted them. but that is a separate issue from the one of: why did she do it, and what does society do with her now?

[narlacat]

Just what society has done, lock her up and throw away the key.

She doesn't deserve anything else.

I was being harsh agreeing with throwing her off the cliff, we all have bad hair days.

[Gozgals]

narlacat:

A short note to say that I think you are being very fair and your open-mindedness is to be commended. Must people do feel she should be thrown off a cliff. You didn't have a bad hair day, (IMO) you are just a good person, that's just the way I call it.
Maybe I roll different then other people.

Thanks for given Yates the benefit of the doubt. She is where she belongs, safely put away where no harm will come to anyone else.


Have a great day:D
Gozgals

[narlacat]

Gozgals
Thanks for your words, kind of you.

But to be fair, I do have bad hair days lol

You have a great day too :) (or night, whatever the case may be)

[kcksum]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.

very well said. Until society stops making mental illness a dirty secret, more men will be un willing to help their wives and more small children will fall vistim to their deranged mothers. If you read their testimony, both of these women believed they were actually helping their children, saving them.

[peepers20056]

REB!! thank you. It break,s my heart when compasion is not there when it should be.I believe heart & soul that rusty yates is more guilty than Andrea.Some that I can<t get out of my mind from the first day iheard about all this & it was the phone call Andrea made TO rusty morning. Andrea said to rust come home now .I did it . HE!!!! said back WHICH ONE. SHE said allof Them. does any rememthis. also have you seen he & his new wife she is young enough (TOOO young )to give rusty many more. SO does it not mmatter to any one his part in all. SET up ANDREA or.GIVe the extra nudge.THESE two weomen are ligit when it comes to the word SICK.I don,t meanthis in nasty way. But if ever this this wasthe time to use the insanity defence. thank you for allowing this rant . :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[reb]

yeah but in his defense, i think he was just being 'tragically optimistic'.. maybe even a bit naive, in th sense that he wanted this big family (they both did, if you remember).. and he just kept hoping that his wife would get, and WAS getting better. he obviously just wanted a normal, happy family life (and who doesn't?), and this mental illness was beyond his comprehension. (and wouldn't it be for anyone?). after all he DID take her for treatment several times, including hospitalization. i'm sure he hoped that their "god" would heal her (as many religious people do).. and when "he" didn't, it was disappointing... but he kept hoping. sometimes you don't get what you want, no matter how hard you pray or how many people you have praying for you. BUT, it's not like he thought she might be healed by religious beliefs alone. she WAS on psychotic drugs several times-- but keep in mind that it is tempting to want your loved one OFF these drugs, as they usually deaden your personality and spirit, not to mention sap your energy and turn you into a zombie. he saw improvement and thought that she could go off the drugs, & she would keep improving... which is a very common thing that people hope for (usually right before something bad happens, due to the person going off their drugs).
i don't blame him at all in ths situation, he sounds like an awesome dad who worked hard and was loyal to his wife & family, always there for them and he loved them very much. also,, just look how he still unconditionally cared about her welfare- even after what she did. he certainly didn't abuse anyone, and the choice to have all those children was both of theirs. however, when the doc said NO MORE! after she should obvious signs of illness, he should have taken the initiative to use birth control &/or make sure his wife used it. frankly, many of these new fundamentalist religions are supporting this new idea people are having, which is "we want as many children as god wants us to have".. and that birth control is sin, etc. well, let's get real, people-- sometimes it's just not that smart.

anyway... i think it all boils down to a genetic glitch, faulty chromosomes, something chemical in her brain that was triggered postpartum depression. people tried to help, but there is no easy answer here. it's nobody's fault, and i truly believe that she takes some responsibility for what happened, and i'm sure rusty has been through enough hell with the guilt of it all. it's just a combination of tragic circumstances.

[Maybe So]

Andrea Yates belongs in a prison hospital.

She knew what she was doing was wrong...that makes her GUILTY of murder.

She dragged her kicking and screaming children into that bathroom and drowned them one by one....even drowning one in the tub where his younger sisters body was already bobbing in the water.

It was her repsonsibility to get treatment for herself and to think for herself and reject the ideas of her husband and religious leader.

All well and good to blame the husband...but it's just another double standard.... If a man goes nuts and kills his family do we blame his wife for not making sure he had better mental health care??

I don't believe in a million years she had any high thoughts that she was saving them from anything. No mother with a heart could listen to her children trying to live and yet kill another and another and another.

[Jeana (DP)]

Andrea Yates belongs in a prison hospital.

She knew what she was doing was wrong...that makes her GUILTY of murder.





Actually, no. It doesn't make her guilty of "murder." She was found NOT guilty by reason of insanity. Its a whole different ballgame.

[OneLostGrl]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

[zadari]

:laugh:Both of these women need to be shoved off a cliff
rofl..

[Jeana (DP)]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Once again, EXCELLENT post!!!!!!!!

[Maybe So]

Actually, no. It doesn't make her guilty of "murder." She was found NOT guilty by reason of insanity. Its a whole different ballgame.


I see her as a murderer.

[Jeana (DP)]

I see her as a murderer.

Well she killed five kids, so that makes sense.

[fox1950]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.

Great post. The best I have seen in a long time.

[fox1950]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Another great post. Bravo! I think along with all the educational stuff that goes along with having a baby, there also should be classes on WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO A MOTHER if she suffers from post-partum depression. What goes around comes around. Don't think it can't happen to any of you after having a baby. I think both FAThers and mothers should be aware of what can happen to mother's minds after a baby is born so the father's are not just as responsible as these two fathers were for not helping, and seeking help for their wives.

[Texana]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Excellent post.

[KT Can]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Ditto, excellent post. It can happen to anyone, anyone.

[OneLostGrl]

Another great post. Bravo! I think along with all the educational stuff that goes along with having a baby, there also should be classes on WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO A MOTHER if she suffers from post-partum depression. What goes around comes around. Don't think it can't happen to any of you after having a baby. I think both FAThers and mothers should be aware of what can happen to mother's minds after a baby is born so the father's are not just as responsible as these two fathers were for not helping, and seeking help for their wives.

As with many things regarding my past (while actively mentally ill), I'm not proud of what I'm about to share but some things need to be said in order for things to change, patterns to be broken, to end mental illness as excuses for bad behavior...

After having my son and dealing with the rapid progression of my mental illnesses, I went off of the birth control pill because I thought that was what may have been causing whatever was wrong with me (had no diagnosis at this point, only knew something was very wrong with me) I ended up becoming pregnant again. After having lost enough control of myself, because my son hadn't slept for several nights (which in turn made me afraid he'd hurt himself so I too stayed awake), that I was able to push my son down while he stood in his crib.. I realized I had no right to bring anymore children into the world, I had no doubt that if I gave birth to this new child at that point of my illness, I could become a child abuser.

Pretty awful thing to admit about oneself... "I could end up harming my child(ren)." After much discussion with my husband and other loved ones and after much soul searching, I decided to end the pregnancy. I am not an advocate for abortion but to this day I know I made the right decision... for myself, for the child I had already given birth to and to my unborn child that could have been the straw that broke the camels back. One more child while being in the state I was in, could have been what made me cross the line.

Less than 3 weeks later, while in my early twenties and severly mentally ill, I made the decision to have my tubes tied. Although I adore my son and would have loved to be able to give him a sibling, I know I made the right decision for all involved, including any future potential children I could have given birth to.


As parents, ill or not, our #1 job is to ensure our childrens safety. I do not excuse any kind of criminal behavior much less the murder of ones own child. I believe the world isn't simply black and white and until society accepts mental illness as easily as they accept heart disease or cancer our ill will become iller (is that even a word?! :waitasec: ) and our innocent children will continue to to suffer. Somewhere, someone has to break the cycle.....

[KarlK]

...that clear cut....My Dad, who is a mental health professional who has been an expert witness many times in criminal cases involving sanity determinations, has said over and over again that very few people meet the legal definitions of insanity.

Very few indeed but some nonetheless and Yates is one of them. For a jury in conservative Texas to find someone not guilty of a heinous crime for reasons of insanity that person has to be seriously deranged. Yates has been psychologically unbalanced he whole life and unfortunately she married into a lifestyle that was sure to drive her over the edge. The last thing she needed was to be immersed into a religious context from which basic common sense was absent. It has long been demonstrated that pharmaceuticals work better than Bibles in the treatment of mental illness.

[Jeana (DP)]

Very few indeed but some nonetheless and Yates is one of them. For a jury in conservative Texas to find someone not guilty of a heinous crime for reasons of insanity that person has to be seriously deranged. Yates has been psychologically unbalanced he whole life and unfortunately she married into a lifestyle that was sure to drive her over the edge. The last thing she needed was to be immersed into a religious context from which basic common sense was absent. It has long been demonstrated that pharmaceuticals work better than Bibles in the treatment of mental illness.

EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

...... "I could end up harming my child(ren)." After much discussion with my husband and other loved ones and after much soul searching, I decided to end the pregnancy. I am not an advocate for abortion but to this day I know I made the right decision... for myself, for the child I had already given birth to and to my unborn child that could have been the straw that broke the camels back. One more child while being in the state I was in, could have been what made me cross the line.

Less than 3 weeks later, while in my early twenties and severly mentally ill, I made the decision to have my tubes tied. Although I adore my son and would have loved to be able to give him a sibling, I know I made the right decision for all involved, including any future potential children I could have given birth to........

So what you are saying is, in the midths of being severely mentally ill, you where able to sanely reason with yourself that you may do harm to your children, (both born and unborn) so you made a decision to terminate a pregnancy (to protect it from yourself) and then another sane decision to sterilize yourself? You made these decisions while being severely mentally ill? Interesting. I realize all mental illness is not created equal, but one would think that if you, admitably being delusional, where able to make life altering decisions, you where not truly mentally ill. As Jenna and a few others point out a TRUE mental illness patient would not be able to make these types of decisions by reasons of insanity.

[OneLostGrl]

So what you are saying is, in the midths of being severely mentally ill, you where able to sanely reason with yourself that you may do harm to your children, (both born and unborn) so you made a decision to terminate a pregnancy (to protect it from yourself) and then another sane decision to sterilize yourself? You made these decisions while being severely mentally ill? Interesting. I realize all mental illness is not created equal, but one would think that if you, admitably being delusional, where able to make life altering decisions, you where not truly mentally ill. As Jenna and a few others point out a TRUE mental illness patient would not be able to make these types of decisions by reasons of insanity.

First of all, the term "Insanity" is not a medical term, only a legal one. Secondly, I stated that at the time I made those decisions I was severely mentally ill- not psychotic or "delusional". Delusional is the word you used, not me.

Absolutely, that's what I'm saying! Wouldn't one consider suicide or an attempt of, a life altering decision? Wouldn't one consider murder a life altering decision? Many make those decisions while in the throws of mental illness, do you feel those are the only decisions a mentally ill person can make?! We are real people attempting to live our lives and on good days can make decisions, we aren't stupid, only "crazy".

A "true" mentally ill person can and does live their lives and make many kinds of decisions. Jeanna has not said that mentally ill people cannot make choices, nor has she said one must be legally insane to be considered mentally ill.

My point in sharing so much of my own illness is to give an example of how, mentally ill or not, we choose our paths.. we make choices in life, but sometimes, rarely, a person can be so out of touch with reality, the choice is not theirs. Obviously, my own experience with mental illness never got to the point where I would harm my chid. I was able to stop myself.. not all of us (or our children) get so lucky! I feel Andrea and people like her are the minority. People that live their life and manage to get by, mental illness and all, without murdering a fellow human are the majority.
Obviously.

My opinion is that cases like Andrea Yates are very real, however, they are also very rare. But one doesn't have to be that out of touch to be diagnosed with a mental illness... one doesn't have to murder their children to have a "true" mental illness!

I don't bunch together "mental illness" and "insanity", nor do the professionals. You do not have to have one to have the other, you also don't have to have both. Millions of us (those who are mentally ill) live in society with millions of you (meaning people without mental illness, not you specifically) and we never hurt you. That does not disqualify us- we are still mentally ill. I appreciate the point you are attempting to make but your misconceptions written in your post are overshadowing it.