RN Keywords

[Rupert]

Forgive me for the long post. I'm drawing a conclusion from what I have learned over several years.

To me there seems to be only six alternatives about who wrote the Ransom Note: an insider to cover-up, an outsider that wanted to make a political statement, an outsider with a personal vendetta against John Ramsay, a wacko pervert outsider who just wants to kill JonBenet, an outsider close to the family that needed to shut-up JonBenet, or a hired gun that took out John Ramsay‘s ability to further his career and buy out the company. I pulled out the essential signal keywords in the RN (might have missed one or two) and am trying to see how they fit together in the various themes. Maybe you have other possible themes? Compare them with the RN Keywords and see how consistent they are.

I kind of think it was an RDI cover up or personal business vendetta against John. However, if it was a vendetta against John, then how could the perp know and be able to imitate Patsy’s handwriting? Sadly, because I don’t believe anyone would have the brains to imitate Patsy’s handwriting, I once again slide to the RDI side if the fence. I wish I could come up with any ideas that would explain the questions I have raised in the IDI themes below.

1. RDI cover-up
2. IDI Foreign Faction Statement
3. IDI Personal Vendetta on John Ramsay
4. IDI wacko
5. IDI shut-up JonBenet
6. IDI take-out John Ramsay

1. Theme: RDI cover-up
Group of individuals; foreign faction - ruse
$118,000.00 - ruse, deflect and infer suspicion on employee envy about bonus
Attache - ruse
Well rested - ? feminine
Early, early, early - urgency
Delivery, delivery, delivery, pick-up - urgency
Two gentlemen - feminine; 2 = ruse
Stray dog pissing against a lamp post - movie
She dies , she dies, she dies - movie Ruthless threat
Scanned, monitor - computer savy
Grow a brain - movie Speed
Fat cat - infer envy on John as fat cat
Victory - saved by the cross
S.B.T.C - saved by the cross

Seems consistent with limited movie knowledge of kidnapping, deflection, and inside knowledge.

2. Theme: IDI Foreign Faction Statement
Group of individuals; foreign faction - political statement
$118,000.00 - ?; 1900 bills?, why the mystery of $118k?
Attache - political statement
Well rested - ?
Early, early, early - urgency or reference to Norm Early head of Security for Lockheed?
Delivery, delivery, delivery, pick-up - urgency
Two gentlemen - feminine; 2 = ruse
Stray dog pissing against a lamp post - movie
She dies , she dies, she dies - movie Ruthless threat
Scanned, monitor - computer savy
Grow a brain - movie Speed
Fat cat - fat cats control power and politics
Victory - this is a win for the Foreign Faction
S.B.T.C - Stop Bombing Thirdworld Countries

Okay, poltical activist fits with younger person who watches kidnap crime movies. But how would the perp know that this would become a public attention getter? How would the perp get inside knowledge? Why the need to express kidnap crime movie references? This is supposed to be a political action; not pulp fiction. Doesn’t work for me.

3. Theme: IDI Personal Vendetta on John Ramsay
Group of individuals; foreign faction - ruse
$118,000.00 - envy about $118k bonus; insider knowledge
Attache - ruse
Well rested - ?, feminine?
Early, early, early - urgency
Delivery, delivery, delivery, pick-up - urgency, delivery business?
Two gentlemen - feminine; 2 = ruse
Stray dog pissing against a lamp post - movie
She dies , she dies, she dies - movie Ruthless threat
Scanned, monitor - computer savy
Grow a brain - movie Speed
Fat cat - envy John as a fat cat
Victory - this is a vendetta
S.B.T.C - ?, Small Business Technical Coalition?

This could be a vengeful person with inside knowledge of $118k bonus, who is young enough to be obsessed with kidnap crime movies and is related to John by business. Could be female. Has some consistency.

4. IDI wacko
Group of individuals; foreign faction - ruse
$118,000.00 - why mention this?, inside knowledge?
Attache - ruse
Well rested - ?, perverse
Early, early, early - urgency
Delivery, delivery, delivery, pick-up - urgency, delivery business?
Two gentlemen - feminine; 2 = ruse
Stray dog pissing against a lamp post - movie
She dies , she dies, she dies - movie Ruthless threat
Scanned, monitor - computer savy
Grow a brain - movie Speed
Fat cat - envy fat cat
Victory - why a victory?
S.B.T.C - ?

Although consistent with obsession and perversion with kidnap crime movies, why the wacko's $118k insider knowledge and why a victory? This doesn’t work for me.

5. IDI shut up JonBenet
Group of individuals; foreign faction - ruse
$118,000.00 - why mention it and draw attention to Insider knowledge
Attache - ruse
Well rested - feminine
Early, early, early - urgency
Delivery, delivery, delivery, pick-up - urgency
Two gentlemen - feminine; 2 = ruse
Stray dog pissing against a lamp post - movie
She dies , she dies, she dies - movie Ruthless threat
Scanned, monitor - computer savy
Grow a brain - movie Speed
Fat cat - why envy fat cat
Victory - why a vendetta
S.B.T.C - ?

Why would the perp want to draw attention to someone close to the R’s when they are trying to sut-up JonBenet? Doesn’t work for me.

6. IDI take-out John Ramsay
Group of individuals; foreign faction - ruse
$118,000.00 - why mention it and draw attention to insider knowledge?
Attache - ruse
Well rested - ?
Early, early, early - urgency
Delivery, delivery, delivery, pick-up - urgency
Two gentlemen - feminine; 2 = ruse
Stray dog pissing against a lamp post - movie
She dies , she dies, she dies - movie Ruthless threat
Scanned, monitor - computer savy
Grow a brain - movie Speed
Fat cat - envy fat cat
Victory - why a victory
S.B.T.C - ?

A hired take-out would not write all this stuff. Doesn’t work for me.

[Eagle1]

Whether the perp turns out to be male or female or other, at least we know the perp is extremely IMPRESSIONABLE, right?

If they could remember so much about movies, and knew the Ramseys well enough, received Christmas letters, maybe, isn't it maybe possible the perp could imitate Patsy's style, something like comedian impersonators sounding just like some famous character, so we'd all recognize without being told, who the impersonator is imitating?

I'd have to read through your post again to go any farther. This is just elementary, it seems to me, that the RN could be a form of IMPERSONATING.

Some people simply have an uncanny talent for it.

So far, we don't know if any of the Rs' friends or acquaintances had this ability. They'd have recognized such a person, immediately, from the note. (Remember I'm neutral, haven't chosen sides. Interested in all points of view, not defending or accusing anyone.)

[Rupert]

Whether the perp turns out to be male or female or other, at least we know the perp is extremely IMPRESSIONABLE, right?

If they could remember so much about movies, and knew the Ramseys well enough, received Christmas letters, maybe, isn't it maybe possible the perp could imitate Patsy's style, something like comedian impersonators sounding just like some famous character, so we'd all recognize without being told, who the impersonator is imitating?

I'd have to read through your post again to go any farther. This is just elementary, it seems to me, that the RN could be a form of IMPERSONATING.

Some people simply have an uncanny talent for it.

So far, we don't know if any of the Rs' friends or acquaintances had this ability. They'd have recognized such a person, immediately, from the note. (Remember I'm neutral, haven't chosen sides. Interested in all points of view, not defending or accusing anyone.)
Well, if it was an intruder, then maybe we should look for someone who could impersonate Patsy's writing. That sounds like stretching it, but it does make some sense if you're searching for an intruder. SH went to prison for forging and John did not want to pay her and her husband the $36k. Split two ways that's $18k as someone suggested. I can't imagine anyone cunning enough to do that, unless of course they wanted to take away his daughter and then make him suspicious of his wife to boot. Another employee SS might have gotten more letters from Patsy.

I think it's stretching it. Either Patsy wrote the RN or someone concidently had writing like hers.

[narlacat]

<<Either Patsy wrote the RN or someone concidently had writing like hers>>

If you come to the conclusion that PR wrote the note-why?
To cover her butt, or someone elses?

I can't quite come at PR writing that note by herself ...the way it prattles on is PR all over though...the use of the word attache, would she be so stupid?
That gets me that word.

[Eagle1]

Well, if it was an intruder, then maybe we should look for someone who could impersonate Patsy's writing. That sounds like stretching it, but it does make some sense if you're searching for an intruder. SH went to prison for forging and John did not want to pay her and her husband the $36k. Split two ways that's $18k as someone suggested. I can't imagine anyone cunning enough to do that, unless of course they wanted to take away his daughter and then make him suspicious of his wife to boot. Another employee SS might have gotten more letters from Patsy.

I think it's stretching it. Either Patsy wrote the RN or someone concidently had writing like hers.

All of us have seen comedians impersonate famous people, we recognized from the voice and characteristic mannerisms. (Hope my spelling is close enough that you get my drift.) Hollywood stars are usually the ones imitated, like Bette Davis, James Stewart, James Cagny, etc.

Could it happen that someone is cunning enough to impersonate someone's handwriting and habitual manner of writing, as well as the other usual things that have to be viewed? Why not? It'd be a useful tool in crimes,going to be pinned on someone else, would it not?

Thank you for being unbiased so we can consider both sides of the question. I'm thinking the note writer is just as much a show-off as Patsy, or even more so, being male, and goes farther, even to killing.

But if all the friends belonged to some satanic cult as well as to some church, the Ramseys certainly could have been involved, may have considered it just good business, and rationalized that JB was always sedated and wouldn't be permanently emotionally harmed. Did Bette Davis have a unique writing style? Doesn't everyone?

[rashomon]

[Rupert]Well, if it was an intruder, then maybe we should look for someone who could impersonate Patsy's writing. That sounds like stretching it, but it does make some sense if you're searching for an intruder.
But why should an intruder take the trouble to learn about Patsy's handwriting in order to imitate it in a ransom note, only to ask for a measly sum of $118,000 from this multimillionaire family?
Occcam's razor applied: Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. The similarities between her handwriting and the note are striking:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

[Solace]

But why should an intruder take the trouble to learn about Patsy's handwriting in order to imitate it in a ransom note, only to ask for a measly sum of $118,000 from this multimillionaire family?
Occcam's razor applied: Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. The similarities between her handwriting and the note are striking:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
There is no intruder. It was Patsy.

IMO.

[Eagle1]

But why should an intruder take the trouble to learn about Patsy's handwriting in order to imitate it in a ransom note, only to ask for a measly sum of $118,000 from this multimillionaire family?
Occcam's razor applied: Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. The similarities between her handwriting and the note are striking:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf


Mindset of the "Intruder" friend or whatever, showing off his POWER to (1) "monitor" them, (2) impersonate them almost perfectly, (3) kill their child with impunity, (4) ) have them hounded about it the rest of their lives.never being able to do anything about it even if they know or suspect who did it or caused it to be done,(5) Amount was also sarcasm, and to show that he knew how much the bonus was, didn't really need money, etc. Whole thing a showing-off, that he had immunity and power over these people. He was also showing off that he did not need ransom money. Cruel as the devil himself. He'd probably flattered the R's in some way to get close to them. Awfully prideful himself, he probably figured the R's were prideful and needed his "humbling", which would stay with them the rest of their lives.

" If" Patsy wrote the note, so what, she had no choice but to try to cover up what may have really been going on with "the friends". "If" she wrote the note it still doesn't prove she killed JonBenet, and the thrush (mouth?) infection may indicate oral sex by a male was being forced on the probably-sedated child. Nobody's proved that anybody did it, so far. Appearances can be deceiving. So deceiving.

Remember the Valerie Plame or Plume thing, which just may have all been staged to remind Americans that we can't expose a secret agent?

I'm thinking it's "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold", meant to google that and see what it's about, just borrowing the title.

According to some crime shows on MSNBC Sunday night, serial killers get high on killing just like on heroin, are motivated by POWER, and have to soon have another.

But we haven't heard of this exact m.o. in any other case unless Danielle Van Dam, if that guy who's in prison for it was just a fall guy. I forget his name. Westerfield? They were showing that Rampage killers are motivated differently from serial ones, typically have moved far from home for a job, leaving their support system behind, and it all falls through, so they may decide to kill a thousand people, usually are stopped before 25, kill themselves. There should maybe be a profile for this type of killer, like Adam Walsh's killer, but not enough is known about them yet, must be few and far between. They met him in Houston? Just a tentative theory that would explain some things, correctly or not.

[SuperDave]

According to some crime shows on MSNBC Sunday night, serial killers get high on killing just like on heroin, are motivated by POWER, and have to soon have another.

But we haven't heard of this exact m.o. in any other case

Correct on both counts.

[Eagle1]

But why should an intruder take the trouble to learn about Patsy's handwriting in order to imitate it in a ransom note, only to ask for a measly sum of $118,000 from this multimillionaire family?
Occcam's razor applied: Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. The similarities between her handwriting and the note are striking:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

Why would he take the trouble to learn Patsy's style? Because he could, and enjoyed fooling people.

I think he's the same one who kept phoning PR according to The Patricia Letters, evidently trying to get more attention than JonBenet, jealous of her, and the same one who slept in JonBenet's bed at Charlevoix. The length of the RN also is because of his wanting attention w/out revealing who he is or taking responsibility for anything. Psych question would be, was he deprived in childhood of a normal amount of parental attention, something like Karr, or was he a spoiled brat, malicious because why? Some people seem to have a genius for evil. Why? Not that there's any excuse.

[Rupert]

Why would he take the trouble to learn Patsy's style? Because he could, and enjoyed fooling people.

I think he's the same one who kept phoning PR according to The Patricia Letters, evidently trying to get more attention than JonBenet, jealous of her, and the same one who slept in JonBenet's bed at Charlevoix. The length of the RN also is because of his wanting attention w/out revealing who he is or taking responsibility for anything. Psych question would be, was he deprived in childhood of a normal amount of parental attention, something like Karr, or was he a spoiled brat, malicious because why? Some people seem to have a genius for evil. Why? Not that there's any excuse.
The note was addressed to John. No mention of Patsy, yet she was the mother. The practice note was addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. I", the "I" could have been the downstroke of an "R". Regardless, why would the author not include the mother?

Well, if it was an intruder, then it seems at first hand to have been a personal vengeance towards John. But to include the impersonation of Patsy's writing, then the perp would have to have planned it.

The timing does fit with a possible motive of jealous vengeance towards John: the $1 billion sales, $118k bonus, "Esprit" business award (remember the heartdrawn magazine). Perhaps the perp was comparing himself to John. But why the girl? Perhaps he was a pedophile too and needed to shut her up. So maybe that's why he planned it.

I wonder why Foster went from being first convinced that PR did not write it to being so convinced she did. I also wonder if Foster ever considered a forgerer, someone imitating PR. I gathered from Foster's final statements that there are many things (more than just the basics) that led him to believe Patsy wrote the note. Perhaps in his mind Foster ruled out any forgery as well.

So where are we? Either an RDI coverup or an IDI with peculiar ability to imitate Patsy's writing.

On one hand, you could ask why would Patsy write such a long incriminating note? Well, perhaps to make it look like a kidnapping, but that is so overboard. Well, perhaps she was overboard with some obvious vengeance towards John. Or perhaps they wrote it together and just threw in everything they could think of to make it look like it was a personal vengeance with multiple suspects.

On the other hand, perhaps it was an intruder jealous of John and a pedophile to boot. He wrote a long note to express his anger and frame the Ramsays. Perhaps he imitated Patsy's writing to disguise his own and planned that ahead.

It just seems like a tall order for an intruder to plan ahead and imitate Patsy's writing.

[JMO8778]

But why should an intruder take the trouble to learn about Patsy's handwriting in order to imitate it in a ransom note, only to ask for a measly sum of $118,000 from this multimillionaire family?
Occcam's razor applied: Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. The similarities between her handwriting and the note are striking:

http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdfIA,it has her earmarks all over it.
I don't think the whole note is hard to figure out,as far as the remarks made and things referred to.$118,000=amt of JR's bonus;R's trying to frame LHP using the note=knowing she could have likely seen something in the house ref. to his bonus and assumed he would have that amt available as petty cash.$118,000 isn't a lot of money,but for someone needing and asking to borrow $2500,it IS a lot,and the R's knew that.
"Good southern common sense"..inside family joke,knowing LHP could have overheard that(again, R's trying to frame her).
I could go on but I think the point is made.As far as movie quotes,those were pretty common lines we've all heard in action films;PR being the overdoer that she was,like ST said,it was a 'HollyWood-ized ransom note'.Same with the 911 call...kidnapping, ransom note...the drama's pretty far out there for real life.I think she realized that for a moment when she made the call...she started to say,'we have a ran....' and stopped...then said 'there's a note left and our daughter is gone'.But I caught that first, and then only later in the call did PR say it was a ransom note.:rolleyes::rolleyes: I think for a moment there,she knew it wouldn't sound beleiveable.
She obviously started to say,'we have a ransom note'.
Listen to the 911 call again if you didn't catch that.

[JMO8778]

It just seems like a tall order for an intruder to plan ahead and imitate Patsy's writing.I agree;I think that's overthinking it.I think an intruder would have brought the note with him,already written so he could simply leave it out to be found.
And how would he know if he would even have time to write one?

[Eagle1]

Evidently whoever did it, IDI or RDI, he KNEW rope would be available in the house, right? And a yellow legal pad, and whatever else. Why carry anything with him that might fall out of his pocket or duffle bag or backpack on the way, or that might be discovered if he were stopped for any traffic violation, tail light not working or something like that? People have been caught that way.

Sure, his having the uncanny ability to imitate PR so well is pretty far-out, but he's a unique kind of perp, or he'd have been caught. PR having the uncanny ability to think of such a note just because she was desperate is just as iffy, it seems to me.

I always enjoy Rupert's posts, the consideration of both sides. And the replies after.

I'm still fishing for a reaction about a perp wanting to "be" JonBenet, or PR, as I guess all actors in theater have to be while onstage. His sleeping in JonBenet's bed and trying to replace JBR in Patsy's affections during the Grand Jury which was evidently making him nervous really brings home to me that's what he was doing, trying to get attention that rightfully belonged to someone else, without revealing his actual ID. Picture it; certainly could and evidently did happen. Many say they haven't read the Patricia Letters, probably available at ACandyRose.

FWIW, I just "may" personally know someone like I'm describing, so please consider it. During the many re-airings of assassinations documentaries, they've said all kinds of nuts infiltrate gov't agencies. I think that makes sense. "Hence" his bragging about being able to monitor and study this family, especially Patsy. Maybe wanted to be a woman??? And/Or a little girl star like JonBenet? Was he obsessed with what might have been if he'd really been born female? And even the omission of the wife/mother in the RN is very familiar to me, a fairly recent phenomenon in some church bulletin mailings. He flatters men, especially leaders, but may behind their backs accuse and get them assassinated, I gather from Holy Writ predictions about the abuse of technology, he's obviously so proud of.

This Nov. 22nd will be another anniversary of the JFK assassination, when we sometimes get something new in the documentaries.

One thing I've never heard emphasized, all the assassination victims were accused posthumously of sexual affairs. JFK had such a bad back, he couldn't duck down in that parade car because of his back brace, and the recordings of Dr. King, "monitoring" him, could have been made in his own home with his own wife but we're supposed to believe it was adultery. Same m.o.'s and number of distractions as in the JonBenet case?

Some of the books said there were 2 to 4 Oswalds. We have at least that many potential suspects about the Ramsey case. Just one of my rambling open-minded opinions. I'll bet you there's some connection.

[cynpat2000]

There is no intruder. It was Patsy.

IMO.This deserves to be repeated because no trueer words have been spoken.

[Rupert]

IA,it has her earmarks all over it.
I don't think the whole note is hard to figure out,as far as the remarks made and things referred to.$118,000=amt of JR's bonus;R's trying to frame LHP using the note=knowing she could have likely seen something in the house ref. to his bonus and assumed he would have that amt available as petty cash.$118,000 isn't a lot of money,but for someone needing and asking to borrow $2500,it IS a lot,and the R's knew that.
"Good southern common sense"..inside family joke,knowing LHP could have overheard that(again, R's trying to frame her).
I could go on but I think the point is made.As far as movie quotes,those were pretty common lines we've all heard in action films;PR being the overdoer that she was,like ST said,it was a 'HollyWood-ized ransom note'.Same with the 911 call...kidnapping, ransom note...the drama's pretty far out there for real life.I think she realized that for a moment when she made the call...she started to say,'we have a ran....' and stopped...then said 'there's a note left and our daughter is gone'.But I caught that first, and then only later in the call did PR say it was a ransom note.:rolleyes::rolleyes: I think for a moment there,she knew it wouldn't sound beleiveable.
She obviously started to say,'we have a ransom note'.
Listen to the 911 call again if you didn't catch that.
Yes, I listened to it again and detected vaguely "We have a ra.." If you are right, boy could she think fast on her feet.

The one thing on the tape that caught my eye when I first heard it was "We have a kidnapping." said matter of factly. The fast breathing seems to exhibit sudden anxiety like they had just found the note and discovered that their daughter was kidnapped. But the way she said "kidnapping" sounded like it an announcement she needed to get over with. I also wondered why she hung up. I think I would have kept the emergency line on to keep communications and take any further advice. "Hurry, hurry, hurry".... click seems to make it appear that she wanted to get off the line (maybe get over the 911 call).

[Rupert]

Evidently whoever did it, IDI or RDI, he KNEW rope would be available in the house, right? And a yellow legal pad, and whatever else. Why carry anything with him that might fall out of his pocket or duffle bag or backpack on the way, or that might be discovered if he were stopped for any traffic violation, tail light not working or something like that? People have been caught that way.

Sure, his having the uncanny ability to imitate PR so well is pretty far-out, but he's a unique kind of perp, or he'd have been caught. PR having the uncanny ability to think of such a note just because she was desperate is just as iffy, it seems to me.

I always enjoy Rupert's posts, the consideration of both sides. And the replies after.

I'm still fishing for a reaction about a perp wanting to "be" JonBenet, or PR, as I guess all actors in theater have to be while onstage. His sleeping in JonBenet's bed and trying to replace JBR in Patsy's affections during the Grand Jury which was evidently making him nervous really brings home to me that's what he was doing, trying to get attention that rightfully belonged to someone else, without revealing his actual ID. Picture it; certainly could and evidently did happen. Many say they haven't read the Patricia Letters, probably available at ACandyRose.

FWIW, I just "may" personally know someone like I'm describing, so please consider it. During the many re-airings of assassinations documentaries, they've said all kinds of nuts infiltrate gov't agencies. I think that makes sense. "Hence" his bragging about being able to monitor and study this family, especially Patsy. Maybe wanted to be a woman??? And/Or a little girl star like JonBenet? Was he obsessed with what might have been if he'd really been born female? And even the omission of the wife/mother in the RN is very familiar to me, a fairly recent phenomenon in some church bulletin mailings. He flatters men, especially leaders, but may behind their backs accuse and get them assassinated, I gather from Holy Writ predictions about the abuse of technology, he's obviously so proud of.

This Nov. 22nd will be another anniversary of the JFK assassination, when we sometimes get something new in the documentaries.

One thing I've never heard emphasized, all the assassination victims were accused posthumously of sexual affairs. JFK had such a bad back, he couldn't duck down in that parade car because of his back brace, and the recordings of Dr. King, "monitoring" him, could have been made in his own home with his own wife but we're supposed to believe it was adultery. Same m.o.'s and number of distractions as in the JonBenet case?

Some of the books said there were 2 to 4 Oswalds. We have at least that many potential suspects about the Ramsey case. Just one of my rambling open-minded opinions. I'll bet you there's some connection.
Cool call on that "uncanny ability". You can take Oxzam's Razor further too. I agree there doesn't seem to be any intruder evidence, so Oxzam's razor says it must have been one of the Ramsays. However, very little blood in the head wound and petechnia along the cord marks suggests to me that JonBenet was viciously garroted first and then head bashed when she was dead. Done carefully without breaking the scalp. A little residual blood pressure allowed about half a teaspoonful of blood to gather in the wound. Yes, there is a slim chance that that the bash came first, Oxzam's Razor says no.

Well, if IDI, it was pure vengeance towards John, but good God, why murder a poor innocent little girl? What is the chance of having a serious case of anger towards John and need to kill the girl at the same time. "We do respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves." At first glance, the author is claiming that he is doing this because he doesn't like the U.S. Yet, he later gets caustic and personal with John. So maybe "bussiness" was spelled wrong to underhandedly mean something else. There was no respect here. One thing about JonBenet, was that she was being groomed to become Miss America. So, maybe the vengeance towards John also included his jeolousy towards JonBenet who was going to represent "the country". Maybe the $1 billion mark and Esprit award made by a self made business man plus the victory of his daughter's pageantry was just all too much for him.

If IDI, then the perp must know alot about leaving absolutely no evidence. Knew how to keep to the sidewalk, let himself in with a key, used whatever material he could find in the house. Knew how to imitate Patsy's writing and thus wrote a long note, knew how to wipe down the batteries. Kind of all fits with the knowledge of kidnap crime movies exhibited in the note.

Even the tape was theatrical. So how did he keep JonBenet quiet? Lou Smit said "stun gun". Could an experienced homicide cop like that be so wrong?

Ah, maybe it was all just due to Patsy's rage and the staging, the talk shows, the unquestionable family support are all just great acting and incredible conspiracy. Apparently, John's going to be on Barbara Walters this December. More of the same or maybe he found a confession only to be read after death? Well, I think they produce those interviews ahead of time, so they will have to keep it mum.

I've got to read the Patricia Letters. I don't know about SBTC = Single Bullet Theory. If the perp had time to read Linburg, Leopold and Loeb, etc., then I guess he might well have delved into the Kennedy Assassination. I learned from some websites that Cyril Wecht doesn't believe Kennedy was killed by the single bullet that went through Connelly. In contrast he thinks JonBenet was RDI.

Ah, maybe it was just a sloppy coverup that just got lucky with the headwound, petechnia, acting, .....

[SuperDave]

I wonder why Foster went from being first convinced that PR did not write it to being so convinced she did.

Simple: he hadn't seen any real evidence when he made the first decision.

I also wonder if Foster ever considered a forgerer, someone imitating PR. I gathered from Foster's final statements that there are many things (more than just the basics) that led him to believe Patsy wrote the note. Perhaps in his mind Foster ruled out any forgery as well.

Well, the way what he does is set up, no one could forge it, because writing patterns are like fingerprints: no two are exactly alike.

Well, perhaps she was overboard with some obvious vengeance towards John. Or perhaps they wrote it together and just threw in everything they could think of to make it look like it was a personal vengeance with multiple suspects.

I think you nailed it on that second one.

And how would he know if he would even have time to write one?

That would be the big question.

Even the tape was theatrical. So how did he keep JonBenet quiet? Lou Smit said "stun gun". Could an experienced homicide cop like that be so wrong?

Sure looks that way, doesn't it?

Yes, there is a slim chance that that the bash came first

Not according to Werner Spitz, among others, who put the head bash at least 20 minutes before the strangling.

Ah, maybe it was just a sloppy coverup that just got lucky with the headwound, petechnia, acting,

Better to be lucky than good (with good lawyers).

[Show Me]

Don't call the police or we will behead your daughter....behead is a key word and I wonder why the Ramseys ignored the monitoring kidnappers threat and called over a bunch of friends, the pastor etc.


I don't know why a kidnapper, who is also a pedofile felt so comfortable to spend hours killing, abusing and staging JonBenet's body bothered with a ransom note in the first place since the killer didn't take the body out of the house. Funny the killer, if they wanted to shock the Ramseys didn't leave the body on the stairs or livingroom under the tree........no this kidnapper hid the body in a little known room after successfully killing his victim. Didn't take the body away so the killer could collect the money...after all if the Ramseys searched the house from top to bottom, JonBenet was sure to be discovered.

And if the kidnapper didn't want to bring his own 'killing tools' why did he choose PATSY'S sharpe, PATSY'S notepad, PATSY'S paintbrush, etc.

Why not use Burke's John's or JonBenet's or Melissa's or Andrew's or the general house stuff.....why only Patsy's stuff?

[Rupert]

Don't call the police or we will behead your daughter....behead is a key word and I wonder why the Ramseys ignored the monitoring kidnappers threat and called over a bunch of friends, the pastor etc.Indeed. This one pushes me towards the RDI. Why the pastor indeed? Why not just the Whites? But hey, they were scared.

Funny the killer, if they wanted to shock the Ramseys didn't leave the body on the stairs or livingroom under the tree........no this kidnapper hid the body in a little known room after successfully killing his victim.JonBenet was hidden right under their noses. Kind of like the movie "Rope" which is based on the Leopold and Loeb murder, which can be related to in the RN.

And if the kidnapper didn't want to bring his own 'killing tools' why did he choose PATSY'S sharpe, PATSY'S notepad, PATSY'S paintbrush, etc.I think the pen and pad were common and in a central place. Paintbrush was down in basement where an intruder could go about his business.

Why not use Burke's John's or JonBenet's or Melissa's or Andrew's or the general house stuff.....why only Patsy's stuff?Wasn't Burke's jack knife found down in the cellar?

[JMO8778]

Indeed. This one pushes me towards the RDI. Why the pastor indeed? Why not just the Whites? But hey, they were scared.
That reminds me,does anyone think it's odd they didn't call the Stine's and ask them to come over that morning?
It seems the R's did a lot of things to others that they didn't do to/with them.Like they're one of the few they didn't throw under the bus.Also,SS answered police thru an intercom about the 911 call on the 23rd,without letting them in.ODD,IMO....esp. given the fact they moved to Atlanta later on.

[JMO8778]

Yes, I listened to it again and detected vaguely "We have a ra.." If you are right, boy could she think fast on her feet.

The one thing on the tape that caught my eye when I first heard it was "We have a kidnapping." said matter of factly. The fast breathing seems to exhibit sudden anxiety like they had just found the note and discovered that their daughter was kidnapped. But the way she said "kidnapping" sounded like it an announcement she needed to get over with. I also wondered why she hung up. I think I would have kept the emergency line on to keep communications and take any further advice. "Hurry, hurry, hurry".... click seems to make it appear that she wanted to get off the line (maybe get over the 911 call).Yes,it did all sound theatrical and a bit too planned,IMO.I didn't think too much of the fast breathing,as anyone can hyperventilate.As well as she would obv. have been nervous,guilty or not.But I think the biggest clue is at the end when she says, "Help me, Jesus" 4x.And I think that's why the lawyer's denied she said anything after that..it sounds pretty incriminating,IMO.

[JMO8778]

Even the tape was theatrical. So how did he keep JonBenet quiet? Lou Smit said "stun gun". Could an experienced homicide cop like that be so wrong?
I honestly think Smit was hired(due to his finding an intruder on a previous case) to FIND an intuder on this case,no matter what the evidence showed.So that being what he was hired for,that's what he found...even if it meant he had to twist or ignore some evidence to make that theory work.He was 'doing his job' so to speak.

[Rupert]

Yes,it did all sound theatrical and a bit too planned,IMO.I didn't think too much of the fast breathing,as anyone can hyperventilate.As well as she would obv. have been nervous,guilty or not.But I think the biggest clue is at the end when she says, "Help me, Jesus" 4x.And I think that's why the lawyer's denied she said anything after that..it sounds pretty incriminating,IMO.
JMO8778,
I don't think Patsy ever said "Help me Jesus" 4 times. That was on the so called "enhanced tape". I have never heard it, have you? I believe it was a feeble attempt by the BPD to get the Ramsay's to confess. The Ramsays never changed their story to say that Burke was at the phone. They said they found out later that he was awake in his bed. I am amazed that people actually believe the enhanced tape is real. No one has ever heard it.

That kind of thing just gets me back on the other side of the fence and makes me want to really find out who did this, because if the Ramsays were set up by one of their friends and then the cops, that is a double whammy. No wonder they were advised to "lawyer up".

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I don't think Patsy ever said "Help me Jesus" 4 times. That was on the so called "enhanced tape". I have never heard it, have you? I believe it was a feeble attempt by the BPD to get the Ramsay's to confess. The Ramsays never changed their story to say that Burke was at the phone. They said they found out later that he was awake in his bed. I am amazed that people actually believe the enhanced tape is real. No one has ever heard it.

That kind of thing just gets me back on the other side of the fence and makes me want to really find out who did this, because if the Ramsays were set up by one of their friends and then the cops, that is a double whammy. No wonder they were advised to "lawyer up".Yes,you can hear her at the end on the unenhanced tape.I don't think any of it was a ploy.See my sig...Aerospace says they stand behind their work on it.
The R's did change their story after the enhancement came out...they admitted BR was awake.IMO they got caught and had to.
They said he was crying and upset.They didn't say he*got up,but,I don't think he would have laid there and cried without trying to find out what was going on.I think it was a lawyer tactic..admit he was awake, but don't say he got up.(trying to walk a line bet. the real story and the lie).

[Show Me]

JMO8778,
I don't think Patsy ever said "Help me Jesus" 4 times. That was on the so called "enhanced tape". I have never heard it, have you? I believe it was a feeble attempt by the BPD to get the Ramsay's to confess. The Ramsays never changed their story to say that Burke was at the phone. They said they found out later that he was awake in his bed. I am amazed that people actually believe the enhanced tape is real. No one has ever heard it.

That kind of thing just gets me back on the other side of the fence and makes me want to really find out who did this, because if the Ramsays were set up by one of their friends and then the cops, that is a double whammy. No wonder they were advised to "lawyer up".

Yes you can hear Patsy say it plainly on the 911 tape.....not long after Patsy told the operator the note was signed by SBTC.....even though Patsy said she never read past the first few lines of the ransom note and John had the note on the floor in a darken hallway AWAY from Patsy.

Oh and Burke's knife found downstairs at the crime scene, had been put away in a laundry cupboard upstairs by PATSY, since Burke was whittling with the knife and making a mess with the wood shavings.

[Show Me]

I honestly think Smit was hired(due to his finding an intruder on a previous case) to FIND an intuder on this case,no matter what the evidence showed.So that being what he was hired for,that's what he found...even if it meant he had to twist or ignore some evidence to make that theory work.He was 'doing his job' so to speak.

Took Lou 10 years to help come up with Karr as a suspect!

Unfortunately the crack Boulder DA's office forgot to tell Lou some EVIDENCE was needed to get a conviction.

[JMO8778]

Yes you can hear Patsy say it plainly on the 911 tape.....not long after Patsy told the operator the note was signed by SBTC.....even though Patsy said she never read past the first few lines of the ransom note and John had the note on the floor in a darken hallway AWAY from Patsy.odd :liar:,isn't it...I can only see one explanation for that.

[SuperDave]

I honestly think Smit was hired(due to his finding an intruder on a previous case) to FIND an intuder on this case,no matter what the evidence showed.So that being what he was hired for,that's what he found...even if it meant he had to twist or ignore some evidence to make that theory work.He was 'doing his job' so to speak.

Every now and then I think that was the idea. Something between Smit and Hunter stank.

[Rupert]

Yes you can hear Patsy say it plainly on the 911 tape.....not long after Patsy told the operator the note was signed by SBTC.....even though Patsy said she never read past the first few lines of the ransom note and John had the note on the floor in a darken hallway AWAY from Patsy.

Oh and Burke's knife found downstairs at the crime scene, had been put away in a laundry cupboard upstairs by PATSY, since Burke was whittling with the knife and making a mess with the wood shavings.
Nope, I can't hear her say "Help me Jesus...". Not there.

LHP hid the knife in the cupboard.

[Rupert]

Took Lou 10 years to help come up with Karr as a suspect!

Unfortunately the crack Boulder DA's office forgot to tell Lou some EVIDENCE was needed to get a conviction.
Lou never came up with Karr. That was Tracy.

Lou was hired by the BPD; not by Hunter.

I think Lou just saw that the parents never had any history and his interviews with them told him they were just not the kind of people to do this.

Hunter even said sometimes good people do bad things. I just think Hunter knew he didn't have an airtight case, the site was so screwed up.

[coloradokares]

Lou never came up with Karr. That was Tracy.

Lou was hired by the BPD; not by Hunter.

I think Lou just saw that the parents never had any history and his interviews with them told him they were just not the kind of people to do this.

Hunter even said sometimes good people do bad things. I just think Hunter knew he didn't have an airtight case, the site was so screwed up.
Bingo!! Hunter had said that more than once. Airtight and he wanted the confession. He even had his famous press soundbyte about sympathy at first would soon be over and soon there will be only you. I don't have the quote in front of me at the moment. I will go get a link to that if requested. He wanted confession he'd of settled for airtight. When he knew legally Patsy could not be compelled to testify against herself or her spouse and visa versa for John. He knew airtight was not possible. Also confession would never forthcome. Hunters out was the Grand Jury :chicken: he took it. JonBenet would not have her justice. How can Colorado's princess have no one willing to speak for her. No one but Fleet and Priscilla White. Detective Thomas. And he is doing something constructive these days he knew he'd never see LE do what should be done. JMHO.

[Show Me]

Nope, I can't hear her say "Help me Jesus...". Not there.

LHP hid the knife in the cupboard.

I heard Help me Jesus plainly on the uncut 911 tape.

You are correct LHP hid the knife in the laundry cupboard where Patsy said she washed out a stain in one of JonBenet's shirts that morning before going downstairs.... the knife may have been close to the pullup disposible diapers kept in the cupboard. The ones Patsy put on JonBenet constantly cause of her bedwetting.

[julianne]

I don't know if she said "Help me Jesus" or not, but playing devils advocate, even if she DID say it, what does that prove?

What I mean is that, the phrase "Help me Jesus" is used by many people. For many different reasons. Now, I don't know if Patsy is guilty or not, but I CAN say that I can totally see an innocent person, who upon discovering that her child has been kidnapped, using the phrase "Help me Jesus" without it giving any connotation that she is guilty of the crime. I can see someone using this phrase who is terrified that her little girl is gone.

Case in point: While camping one year deep in the woods, at a campground, we lost track of my 3 year old little boy. Happened so fast. It was heart wrenching. He was gone about 15 minutes and thankfully, he had walked to another campsite and the campers took him to the campground host. Time stood still for me in those 15 minutes. See, there was a group of kids playing with my other kids, and I thought my 3 year old was with them, but it was actually ANOTHER 3 year old, dressed in grey sweatpants and a grey sweatshirt, brown hair---this kid was dressed exactly like mine, looked like mine, same age as mine, so from a distance I thought I was watching MY kid, when in all actuality I was watching this OTHER kid who I THOUGHT was mine. Anyway, when he realized it wasn't him, and that he was gone, it started raining and lightning, which scared me even more. I was beside myself, running around, looking, yelling his name....At one point, and this is all a blur, but I remember dropping to my knees in the middle of the woods in the rain and yelling "Help me God" over and over again....pleading,making promises to God if only he would bring my boy back.

Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic, but just wanted to give an example of why I don't think IF she said it that it doesn't necessarily mean guilt. I know firsthand that it can simply mean what I meant when I said it--which is an expression of pure anguish. Thankfully, we found him, all was good, and I learned a big lesson that day.

[JMO8778]

I can't explain it other than the way she said it...like it was 'all about her' and not a thing about JB...help ME Jesus..is what I got out of it.I know that doesn't prove anything,but I suspect TR may have noticed that as well,since they denied her saying it at all.

[narlacat]

Nope, I can't hear her say "Help me Jesus...". Not there.

LHP hid the knife in the cupboard.
I heard it...

And told Patsy where she had hidden it.

[4sure]

I don't know why a kidnapper, who is also a pedofile felt so comfortable to spend hours killing, abusing and staging JonBenet's body bothered with a ransom note in the first place since the killer didn't take the body out of the house. ?How do you know the body never left the house?

[Show Me]

I can't explain it other than the way she said it...like it was 'all about her' and not a thing about JB...help ME Jesus..is what I got out of it.I know that doesn't prove anything,but I suspect TR may have noticed that as well,since they denied her saying it at all.

Yeah you'd think Patsy'd be praying for Jesus or God to help JonBenet.

[Show Me]

How do you know the body never left the house?

How do you know it didn't?

Of course there can be some monitoring pedophile kidnapping murderers who might torture and kill a little girl in her home. Then take the body for a ride around the block before bringing it back home for staging.

Why they'd want to do something bizarre like that, I dunno, but it is possible, I guess....

[JMO8778]

Yeah you'd think Patsy'd be praying for Jesus or God to help JonBenet.Exactly,when I heard it,it sounded like she was calling on Jesus to help her get away with it..not to help JB and keep her safe.
Also what got me was when she said,"I'm the mother"...mother of what? an inanimate object?? sounds like she knew JB was already dead or her words would have been "I'm her mother",or "I'm JonBenet's mother".

[Rupert]

I heard Help me Jesus plainly on the uncut 911 tape.

You are correct LHP hid the knife in the laundry cupboard where Patsy said she washed out a stain in one of JonBenet's shirts that morning before going downstairs.... the knife may have been close to the pullup disposible diapers kept in the cupboard. The ones Patsy put on JonBenet constantly cause of her bedwetting.
I have listened to the tape again and again. I don't hear it.

[narlacat]

Exactly,when I heard it,it sounded like she was calling on Jesus to help her get away with it..not to help JB and keep her safe.
Also what got me was when she said,"I'm the mother"...mother of what? an inanimate object?? sounds like she knew JB was already dead or her words would have been "I'm her mother",or "I'm JonBenet's mother". And what about 'we have a kidnapping', yeah right :rolleyes:

[Show Me]

I have listened to the tape again and again. I don't hear it.

Does anyone have the link to the UNCUT version of the 911 tape for Rupert?

[narlacat]

How do you mean the UNCUT version.
There are two versions, enhanced and un-enhanced.
We only have access to the un-enhanced.
Rupert turn the volume up really loud.....lol.....you can hear it quite clearly.

[Solace]

How do you mean the UNCUT version.
There are two versions, enhanced and un-enhanced.
We only have access to the un-enhanced.
Rupert turn the volume up really loud.....lol.....you can hear it quite clearly.
You make me laugh out loud.

That is correct. We do not have the unenhanced version. Do you think it means it does not exist and that Aerospace is lying?

I think John is lying and Berke also lied and forget about Patsy (there is no hope for her).

Berke later on admits he was up.:cool:

[JMO8778]

And what about 'we have a kidnapping', yeah right :rolleyes:Really....too Hollywood and too dramatic, IMO.

Wasn't BR given a copy of the enhanced version b/f he appeared at the Grand Jury hearing?For him to be given a copy,wouldn't that mean he was on it?

[JMO8778]

How do you mean the UNCUT version.
There are two versions, enhanced and un-enhanced.
We only have access to the un-enhanced.
Rupert turn the volume up really loud.....lol.....you can hear it quite clearly.yes,it's right after she says 'hurry, hurry. ' I think someone else said you can hear it better with headphones.

[Show Me]

How do you mean the UNCUT version.
There are two versions, enhanced and un-enhanced.
We only have access to the un-enhanced.
Rupert turn the volume up really loud.....lol.....you can hear it quite clearly.

Sorry guys, I was thinking of when Lin wood played the 911 tape and Katie Couric or Diane Sawyer stopped the tape before the ending....didn't play the whole tape to the end...which is why I said cut version.

[4sure]

How do you know it didn't?

....I don't know. I'm just wondering what makes you so sure. Some like to pontificate about how little time the perpetrator/s had, but the time frame given is from at least 11pm to 5am. Thats six hours. Thats a long time.

[Eagle1]

I don't know. I'm just wondering what makes you so sure. Some like to pontificate about how little time the perpetrator/s had, but the time frame given is from at least 11pm to 5am. Thats six hours. Thats a long time.

That's exactly what I keep thinking. There was plenty of time, plus unusual boldness because someone seemed to know they had a lot of some kind of power over the R's. Could do whatever they wanted in their house and take as long as they wanted.

If one of us were the perp we might feel rushed and nervous. But it wasn't any of us. It had to be some monster guy.

[cynpat2000]

How do you know the body never left the house?What perpetrator would take his victim out of the house and then bring it back????!

[SuperDave]

Lou never came up with Karr. That was Tracy.

Don't remind us!

Lou was hired by the BPD; not by Hunter.

No, he was a DA man.

I think Lou just saw that the parents never had any history and his interviews with them told him they were just not the kind of people to do this.

That hardly strikes me as hard evidence.

Scott Peterson is on death row with less evidence than they have against John and Patsy. Don't blame anyone else for the DA's incompetence.

[Rupert]

Does anyone have the link to the UNCUT version of the 911 tape for Rupert?I will get the link to the "uncut" version, but here is Tricia's forum record on the "enhanced tape" which according to the "consultants" has "Help me Jesus"..

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4576

I do not hear "Help me Jesus" on the so called original tape. Did someone cut off the end? Forget about enhanced version, was the "Help me Jesus" cut off by Katie Couric? If so why?

[Rupert]

Narlacat,

You must have another version. Here is one from the other side:
http://www.jameson245.com/tape1.mp3

Listen carefully...
Turn up the volume if you like. It ain't there.

If the consultants were willing to do it for BPD, they must have known that they would eventually be called to account in a court of law or public journalism. Patsy is now gone. So where is the enhanced tape? I bet it's been deleted. That is so unfair.

[Rupert]

Exactly,when I heard it,it sounded like she was calling on Jesus to help her get away with it..not to help JB and keep her safe.
Also what got me was when she said,"I'm the mother"...mother of what? an inanimate object?? sounds like she knew JB was already dead or her words would have been "I'm her mother",or "I'm JonBenet's mother".
In the tape, Patsy referred to her daughter as "my daughter" a number of times. Your accusation of her treating her daughter like an "inanimate object" in the tape is wrong and misleading.

[JMO8778]

Rupert,I can hear it just fine..it's at the end,after the typing.
I don't think I'm wrong or misleading at all..she said my daughter only once,not a number of times(what was she going to say there,the daughter's gone? that doesn't make any sense).I think she was clearly and subconciously distancing herself from JB with her 'I'm the mother' comment.

[4sure]

What perpetrator would take his victim out of the house and then bring it back????!Why is it I have to explain the unusual actions of a unknown "perpetrator" yet so many can believe that otherwise wonderful parents can suddenly bash their daughters head in because she wet her bed, wipe her down and change her into the wrong underware, dye and style her hair and then proceed to tie her up, strangle her, molest her with a paint brush, leave her in the basement for dead while then composing a three page ransome note based on hit movies, call ploice to the house, invite friends over to contaminate evidence and six hours later find the body themselves to contaminate more evidence as part of their ingenious plan?

I don't know why a perpetrator would return the body to the house besides suspecting that something unexpected happend to foreshawdow the event.

[Nuisanceposter]

"Otherwise wonderful parents"...

Here's where I disagree. One parent was never home and had very little idea what was going on in his own home, and the other ignored her child's recurring health issues to focus on a life of junior pageantry and riding on floats in parades.

Personally, I think they were both neglectful, self-centered parents who valued themselves over their own daughter.

Desperate people do desperate things. I don't think they needed to strangle JonBenet - the intruder could have killed her by striking her on the head. I assume the strangling needed to cover up previous injury to the neck, and that's why they felt they needed to tie a cord around her neck. I think the paintbrush injury is meant to raise doubt or misdirect from previous molestation. They had to call police eventually, and the friends provided a buffer as well as contamination. I think they thought JonBenet's body would be found by police before the calls from the 'napper were supposed to come.

I can't see a perp who kidnapped a child from her home taking the risk of being caught returning her for any reason. He could just stop on any lonely road and dump her in a ditch. Why would he take the chance of being caught putting her back in the house? He certainly isn't going to be getting the ransom the RN claims the crime is about.

[4sure]

"

Personally, I think they were both neglectful, self-centered parents who valued themselves over their own daughter.

.It is your right to think whatever you like. There are more bad parents in the world than good ones. Even if so it does not mean they are killers.

[coloradokares]

It is your right to think whatever you like. There are more bad parents in the world than good ones. Even if so it does not mean they are killers.
I am sorry 4 sure, I cannot agree with you that there are more bad parents in the world than good ones. Most are wonderful giving loving parents who'd die before hurting their child in any way.

[coloradokares]

Why is it I have to explain the unusual actions of a unknown "perpetrator" yet so many can believe that otherwise wonderful parents can suddenly bash their daughters head in because she wet her bed, wipe her down and change her into the wrong underware, dye and style her hair and then proceed to tie her up, strangle her, molest her with a paint brush, leave her in the basement for dead while then composing a three page ransome note based on hit movies, call ploice to the house, invite friends over to contaminate evidence and six hours later find the body themselves to contaminate more evidence as part of their ingenious plan?

I don't know why a perpetrator would return the body to the house besides suspecting that something unexpected happend to foreshawdow the event.
Wonderful parents instill a strong sense of appropriate boundaries in their childrens lives. It starts very young with teaching them self esteem yet responsibility. I don't know what kind of parent Patsy would have been without the cancer. I think about the same perhaps as she was with cancer actually. You teach children NO you don't whittle all over the house or you clean it up. You don't teach them beauty is everything. You teach them to whom much is given much is expected in this world. Did it occur what dying JB's hair taught JB. That to be beautiful you must alter your appearance. That does not teach self acceptance. If good boundaries were being taught JB would not have kicked Patsy at one of the Paegents. If Patsy was listening perhaps JonBenet could have been a normal kid.

[4sure]

Wonderful parents instill a strong sense of appropriate boundaries in their childrens lives. It starts very young with teaching them self esteem yet responsibility. I don't know what kind of parent Patsy would have been without the cancer. I think about the same perhaps as she was with cancer actually. You teach children NO you don't whittle all over the house or you clean it up. You don't teach them beauty is everything. You teach them to whom much is given much is expected in this world. Did it occur what dying JB's hair taught JB. That to be beautiful you must alter your appearance. That does not teach self acceptance. If good boundaries were being taught JB would not have kicked Patsy at one of the Paegents. If Patsy was listening perhaps JonBenet could have been a normal kid.At the moment the only thing that comes to mind is a word.
Presumptuous

[coloradokares]

At the moment the only thing that comes to mind is a word.
Presumptuous
Another word comes to my mind. Because my parents were wonderful parents and I learned boundaries I do not use that word Let your imagination go wild. You'll get there eventually!

[cynpat2000]

:clap: "Otherwise wonderful parents"...

Here's where I disagree. One parent was never home and had very little idea what was going on in his own home, and the other ignored her child's recurring health issues to focus on a life of junior pageantry and riding on floats in parades.

Personally, I think they were both neglectful, self-centered parents who valued themselves over their own daughter.

Desperate people do desperate things. I don't think they needed to strangle JonBenet - the intruder could have killed her by striking her on the head. I assume the strangling needed to cover up previous injury to the neck, and that's why they felt they needed to tie a cord around her neck. I think the paintbrush injury is meant to raise doubt or misdirect from previous molestation. They had to call police eventually, and the friends provided a buffer as well as contamination. I think they thought JonBenet's body would be found by police before the calls from the 'napper were supposed to come.

I can't see a perp who kidnapped a child from her home taking the risk of being caught returning her for any reason. He could just stop on any lonely road and dump her in a ditch. Why would he take the chance of being caught putting her back in the house? He certainly isn't going to be getting the ransom the RN claims the crime is about.:clap: :clap: :clap: My thoughts exactly , no perpetrator is going to take the body back,Plus leave no dna.

[coloradokares]

What perpetrator would take his victim out of the house and then bring it back????!
If the body had left the home wouldn't there have been forensic evidence acquired from the area the body was left at outside the home then brought back. Vehicle carpet fibers something ..... Random particles if nothing else that had to come from out of the home.

[cynpat2000]

If the body had left the home wouldn't there have been forensic evidence acquired from the area the body was left at outside the home then brought back. Vehicle carpet fibers something ..... Random particles if nothing else that had to come from out of the home.Exactly!!!and theres not even any evidence that their was any intruder near her much less have taken her outside....

[4sure]

Another word comes to my mind. Because my parents were wonderful parents and I learned boundaries I do not use that word Let your imagination go wild. You'll get there eventually!If one would presume to draw conclusions on another person life then one would have shown no boundaries.

[4sure]

Exactly!!!and theres not even any evidence that their was any intruder near her much less have taken her outside....Sure there is. We have a neighbor as a witness. Who of course was quickly threatend to shut up about any scream she heard and sounds her husband heard when awoken by LE. Wonder why?

[Eagle1]

Sure there is. We have a neighbor as a witness. Who of course was quickly threatend to shut up about any scream she heard and sounds her husband heard when awoken by LE. Wonder why?

The Barnhills evidently were told to shut up too,when they saw someone RESEMBLING JAR, just like the Stantons. I'm glad somebody noticed.

Maybe it wasn't really JAR, just more of the staging, trying to frame all of the family? And at least it revealed that maybe there'a a lookalike. Maybe so, maybe not.

[coloradokares]

If one would presume to draw conclusions on another person life then one would have shown no boundaries.
This is about a little girls death, her life cut way to short because acceptable boundaries were crossed right in my back yard so to speak. That changes things. NO ONE should accept murder. Since it was at the time my immediate local community that also gives the right to question. I will leave it to a jury of peers to draw the final conclusions. What I shall work on is making sure that the jury has the opportunity to draw their conclusions. That is the acceptable social norms, is it not.

[4sure]

This is about a little girls death, her life cut way to short because acceptable boundaries were crossed right in my back yard so to speak. That changes things. NO ONE should accept murder. Since it was at the time my immediate local community that also gives the right to question. I will leave it to a jury of peers to draw the final conclusions. What I shall work on is making sure that the jury has the opportunity to draw their conclusions. That is the acceptable social norms, is it not.Well perhaps you could offer a little evidence (less opinion) that JBR's was not a "normal kid". First maybe you could help me with what in your opinion is a normal kid.

[coloradokares]

Well perhaps you could offer a little evidence (less opinion) that JBR's was not a "normal kid". First maybe you could help me with what in your opinion is a normal kid.
One that has a strong sense of self and has self esteem centered in achievements vs looks. Kicking Patsy at a paegent in full view of witnesses
stretched the boundaries a little. I never said they were not normal. What I said is they were perhaps over indulged. Perhaps the better way to say it is to reinfoce boundaries that are expected age appropriate.

[4sure]

One that has a strong sense of self and has self esteem centered in achievements vs looks. Kicking Patsy at a paegent in full view of witnesses
stretched the boundaries a little. I never said they were not normal.What I said is they were perhaps over indulged. Perhaps the better way to say it is to reinfoce boundaries that are expected age appropriate.It's exactly what you said.If Patsy was listening perhaps JonBenet could have been a normal kid..I do believe JBR was recieving lessons in dance, singing and music also. To say JBR only lessons were all about looks is a bit of a stretch. Paying attention to her apperance is only one thing JBR seems to have been being taught.

[coloradokares]

It's exactly what you said.I do believe JBR was recieving lessons in dance, singing and music also. To say JBR only lessons were all about looks is a bit of a stretch. Paying attention to her apperance is only one thing JBR seems to have been being taught.
Yes all pageant related with the Miss America goal always on the mind.

I know what I think, as well as what I say if what I am saying does not make sense to you I have to believe that part of that is you don't wish to comprehend I am not talking about the yelling sessions that Linda H. Pugh was talking about in the bathroom. But the incredible messes the kids could make in 2 days time. Those kids were not taught to make thier beds pick up their own messes. Burke whittled wherever he wanted in the house. You only have to read for yourself that alone know people to know that I am not saying they were not able to comprehend boundaries. Kids actually gain much comfort and security from boundaries. They were never disciplined and that came from many sources. BOUNDARIES ....all children are adorable and sweet and innocent but eventually lack of age appropriate boundaries ...... shows. While adorable kids without boundaries start to force issues to get the parents to establish some kind of guidelines. Some kids that age are already making their own beds and picking up after themselves very well. If you cannot see what I am saying I apologize. I am sure some relate very well to what I am saying. I was playing the recitals at that age . I also was singing solo's in church at that age. I was on display in another way. I also was responsible to make my own bed keep my room picked up make sure my clothes were orderly and in the laundry. Toileting myself was a far and away long gone accomplishment long before that age.

[Eagle1]

I think JonBenet's is a special case. Her mom had been sick a lot, unable to exert much discipline if she'd wanted to, and her father was away a lot.

LHP was being paid to clean up the messes instead of give orders to the family, like hiding Burke's whittling knife, if my memory is correct. It reminds me of that character "Florence" in "The Jeffersons" who's always smarting off to George Jefferson and his wife never notices that it's wrong.

JBR was evidently being abused, by someone. We simply don't know who, and that alone would probably account for her losing it and acting out in front of people and her toileting issues.

[Solace]

Well perhaps you could offer a little evidence (less opinion) that JBR's was not a "normal kid". First maybe you could help me with what in your opinion is a normal kid.
4Sure: JonBenet was being groomed to be a sex symbol. She is strutting and working that body across the stage. She is 5 years old. The next pageant or dress up was to be Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe says "SEX SYMBOL". She had her hair dyed. Again, she is 5 and probably 4 when that started, maybe even three. That is absurd.

Also I would like to address the fact that you say most parents are bad parents. If that were true, we would have a lot more serial killers walking around. Maybe most parents do not do everything right, but to say that most parents are "bad" parents is something that I disagree with.

I do not know what happened that night, BUT, the evidence is pointing right in their direction and they are doing NOTHING to disprove it. They lie everytime they go on TV. Patsy is stoned most of the time in her interviews. I have seen three where she is not rambling or slurring her words. I know she lost a child, but they did NOTHING to help solve this case in the beginning. They did EVERYTHING to avoid the police. They said on LKL that they would take a lie detector test and were nowhere to be found afterwards. The fibers that were found in the garrotte did not magically appear there. They got there because Patsy brought them there. They did not magically appear under the tape, Patsy was close by.

There was some kind of hell going on in that house that night. And Patsy has a very convenient memory but when she does speak, she inevitably says more than she should, such as seeing the heart the morning of the 26th and recanting the next day.

[coloradokares]

I think JonBenet's is a special case. Her mom had been sick a lot, unable to exert much discipline if she'd wanted to, and her father was away a lot.

LHP was being paid to clean up the messes instead of give orders to the family, like hiding Burke's whittling knife, if my memory is correct. It reminds me of that character "Florence" in "The Jeffersons" who's always smarting off to George Jefferson and his wife never notices that it's wrong.

JBR was evidently being abused, by someone. We simply don't know who, and that alone would probably account for her losing it and acting out in front of people and her toileting issues.
You are right when you say LHP was being paid to clean up the messes. Most maid services would have QUIT! So Patsy must have been satisfied with LHP. Patsy had hired LHP away from the service. So in that regard I am sure expectations had changed. However a peek inside the family and how it operated behind the scenes would be inevitable for anyone who worked inside the home like LHP did. She spoke of the bathroom yelling sessions etc. I don't think LHP was out telling family secrets. She was interviewed about details because JonBenet died a horrible death. Violent death. No one would have ever heard the behind the scenes things had that not occured. Probably all that and the boundary issues would have been never spoken of. Hidden from the public view as most child abuse is. Some really private family dynamics came out in a very public way because the family was investigated because their child died in what appeared to investigators to not be the kidnapping the Ramseys reported. It looked staged to investigators. JonBenet's skull had an 8 1/2 inch fracture. At that point questions are bound to be asked. Friends neighbors etc speak of JonBenet's toileting issues. However toilet issues were not probably the only issues. Patsy was doing really well. Chemo was over and she was active in the childrens lives. She was considered healed in her own words. Patsy by all accounts ( many sources to these accounts ) was a perfectionist and liked to be in charge and control. She cultivated and tried to maintain the appearance of perfection. Perfect family. Yet according to LHP and many other credible sources the kids could create huge messes and that is not compatible with the perfectionist image . One that fits the Perfect Murder Perfect Town. Perfect family thing. John and Patsy were not seen publicallyby others to be discipliners of the kids at all. No one would accuse them of spanking or abuse. In fact what came out was the opposite view. Like, why didnt they set some boundaries? But no at least to my knowledge they were not ever accused of any corporal abuse. Yet others speak of the toileting issues, the messes, the war of wills starting between Patsy and JonBenet, the kicking at Patsy at a Pageant. So there were at least signs that maybe things were not all as perfect as the public image. What happens then if the damn breaks? Not saying it did in this case. What happens, far to often and what experts who work in child abuse know is that is way to much air gets pumped into the balloon and eventually the balloon blows up.

I have not changed your opinion. Nor have you changed mine. Most of how I formulated my opinion was not read in print. It was the six degrees thing. People who knew people who knew who investigated la la la.

[Solace]

You are right when you say LHP was being paid to clean up the messes. Most maid services would have QUIT! So Patsy must have been satisfied with LHP. Patsy had hired LHP away from the service. So in that regard I am sure expectations had changed. However a peek inside the family and how it operated behind the scenes would be inevitable for anyone who worked inside the home like LHP did. She spoke of the bathroom yelling sessions etc. I don't think LHP was out telling family secrets. She was interviewed about details because JonBenet died a horrible death. Violent death. No one would have ever heard the behind the scenes things had that not occured. Probably all that and the boundary issues would have been never spoken of. Hidden from the public view as most child abuse is. Some really private family dynamics came out in a very public way because the family was investigated because their child died in what appeared to investigators to not be the kidnapping the Ramseys reported. It looked staged to investigators. JonBenet's skull had an 8 1/2 inch fracture. At that point questions are bound to be asked. Friends neighbors etc speak of JonBenet's toileting issues. However toilet issues were not probably the only issues. Patsy was doing really well. Chemo was over and she was active in the childrens lives. She was considered healed in her own words. Patsy by all accounts ( many sources to these accounts ) was a perfectionist and liked to be in charge and control. She cultivated and tried to maintain the appearance of perfection. Perfect family. Yet according to LHP and many other credible sources the kids could create huge messes and that is not compatible with the perfectionist image . One that fits the Perfect Murder Perfect Town. Perfect family thing. John and Patsy were not seen publicallyby others to be discipliners of the kids at all. No one would accuse them of spanking or abuse. In fact what came out was the opposite view. Like, why didnt they set some boundaries? But no at least to my knowledge they were not ever accused of any corporal abuse. Yet others speak of the toileting issues, the messes, the war of wills starting between Patsy and JonBenet, the kicking at Patsy at a Pageant. So there were at least signs that maybe things were not all as perfect as the public image. What happens then if the damn breaks? Not saying it did in this case. What happens, far to often and what experts who work in child abuse know is that is way to much air gets pumped into the balloon and eventually the balloon blows up.

I have not changed your opinion. Nor have you changed mine. Most of how I formulated my opinion was not read in print. It was the six degrees thing. People who knew people who knew who investigated la la la.
When did JonBenet kick at Patsy. Is it on film?

[4sure]

4Sure: JonBenet was being groomed to be a sex symbol. She is strutting and working that body across the stage. She is 5 years old. The next pageant or dress up was to be Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe says "SEX SYMBOL". She had her hair dyed. Again, she is 5 and probably 4 when that started, maybe even three. That is absurd.

Solace its just my opinion that most folks are over reacting. A six year old girl in a bikini on the beach is only sexy to a pervert just like a six year old girl performing in a pageant costume is not sexy no matter what she's doing. Thousands of girls perform in dance troops and pageants and so on and live perfectly normal lives. Ive never seen a photo showing JBR's hair dyed a different color only lightend or highlighted a bit.

[Eagle1]

I think you're right that a 6 yr old could only look sexy to a pervert, but her hair did look like it had been lightened a lot. For instance in the picture with the white costume, feather boa, etc.

In the picture that a "portrait" was painted from, I believe she was a brownette.

And I want to remind us for the benefit of those who keep repeating there was no evidence of an intruder, that

BOTH Melody Stanton and her husband and the Barnhills, 4 people that we know of, heard or saw someone, and apparently were silenced. There may have been others, who didn't come forward or were not interviewed.

Just to make sure we know both sides of the story. We're seeking whole truth and nothing but the truth, not just having a contest betw RDI' s and IDI's. Anything can sound like truth until you hear the other side, and appearances can be deceiving. Neither side knows the whole truth yet.

[Nuisanceposter]

When did JonBenet kick at Patsy. Is it on film?I don't think it's on film, but I've heard JonBenet kicked Patsy, too. I want to say that came from Patsy's mother Nedra Paugh, but I'm not sure.

[JMO8778]

And I want to remind us for the benefit of those who keep repeating there was no evidence of an intruder, that

BOTH Melody Stanton and her husband and the Barnhills, 4 people that we know of, heard or saw someone, and apparently were silenced. There may have been others, who didn't come forward or were not interviewed.
I keep wondering what happened to the school nurse...why did JB go to see her (I think it was twice?) both times on a Mon. that Dec.,and was she ever q'd,and/or was she silenced as well???

[coloradokares]

I don't think it's on film, but I've heard JonBenet kicked Patsy, too. I want to say that came from Patsy's mother Nedra Paugh, but I'm not sure.
Not on stage so doubtful on film. It was witnessed by several people at the pagent as JonBenet was getting ready to perferm and go on. I guess it was a little temper burst.

[coloradokares]

I think you're right that a 6 yr old could only look sexy to a pervert, but her hair did look like it had been lightened a lot. For instance in the picture with the white costume, feather boa, etc.

In the picture that a "portrait" was painted from, I believe she was a brownette.

And I want to remind us for the benefit of those who keep repeating there was no evidence of an intruder, that

BOTH Melody Stanton and her husband and the Barnhills, 4 people that we know of, heard or saw someone, and apparently were silenced. There may have been others, who didn't come forward or were not interviewed.

Just to make sure we know both sides of the story. We're seeking whole truth and nothing but the truth, not just having a contest betw RDI' s and IDI's. Anything can sound like truth until you hear the other side, and appearances can be deceiving. Neither side knows the whole truth yet.
The Stantons heard the scream and possibly the sound of something like metal. That is all and they retracted even part of that. What the Barnhills said is they thought they had seen John Andrew walk across the lawn earlier that day. I will need proof of anything beyond that. The Barnhills were in bed early that night as their board Glen was not feeling well and retired early. Other than that I have heard or seen no interview that claimed otherwise. Please provide the link or article if you could. To say that the Barnhills or Stantons were apparently silenced is quite an accusation. Normally I wouldn't hassle anyone for a link.. but this time I'd like to see where this was stated in this way. It sounds pretty much speculative on others if they didn't come forward or were not interviewd. But I feel pretty confident in my beliefs regarding the Barnhills and the other neighbors the Stantons.

[Eagle1]

I think we're mostly getting it from the books, and I can't specify now which ones, it's been so long, that the Barnhills were silenced. I don't remember ever hearing that the walker went ACROSS THE LAWN, which certainly would connect the walker with the crime in my opinion! Anyone have a link for that? I'd been wondering if they actually saw him go in or if he was just walking by on the sidewalk, and always thought it's significant that he strongly resembled John Andrew.

It's kind of like the JFK case, imo, about which I caught part of one documentary last night, finally, on the History channel. One thing I caught this time that was new to me. A policeman who'd handcuffed Oswald to him to lead him out joked to LHO, "If someone shoots at you, I sure hope he's a better marksman than you." He said LHO said, "You're being melodramatic. Nobody's going to shoot at me." Evidently LHO had been told he wouldn't be convicted. And some of the books said there were at least 4 LHO's, lookalikes. So why would they shoot officer Tippett? Whichever one did, using Oswald's rifle he'd evidently delivered to the 6th floor by calling it a pkg of curtain rods?

This docu, titled "Beyond Conspiracy", had a bunch of men claiming to know LHO was an expert marksman, but years ago everyone said he wasn't. He'd had Marina take a picture of him with a rifle, obviously wanted for some reason to be thought of as a marksman. They didn't mention in this one that the back of JFK's head was blown off, and the traceotomy doctors used what they felt was an entrance wound in the front of his throat. So it seemed it was all just another whitewash attempt. One woman at the end said she still feels LHO was a CIA agent. I wonder how long she'll be alive and well? So many of the original witnesses died within a decade, according to at least one of the books, probably Sybil Lee's, or Mark Lane's.

But back to JonBenet, I don't think she was feeling well on her last day, and a lot of previous days. I too often wonder about the school nurse.

That really SEEMS to fit in with the Barnhills apparently being silenced, and even the Stanton's about what they heard.

[4sure]

It's kind of like the JFK case, imo, about which I caught part of one documentary last night, finally, on the History channel. One thing I caught this time that was new to me. A policeman who'd handcuffed Oswald to him to lead him out joked to LHO, "If someone shoots at you, I sure hope he's a better marksman than you." He said LHO said, "You're being melodramatic. Nobody's going to shoot at me." Evidently LHO had been told he wouldn't be convicted. And some of the books said there were at least 4 LHO's, lookalikes. So why would they shoot officer Tippett? Whichever one did, using Oswald's rifle he'd evidently delivered to the 6th floor by calling it a pkg of curtain rods?

This docu, titled "Beyond Conspiracy", had a bunch of men claiming to know LHO was an expert marksman, but years ago everyone said he wasn't. He'd had Marina take a picture of him with a rifle, obviously wanted for some reason to be thought of as a marksman. They didn't mention in this one that the back of JFK's head was blown off, and the traceotomy doctors used what they felt was an entrance wound in the front of his throat. So it seemed it was all just another whitewash attempt. One woman at the end said she still feels LHO was a CIA agent. I wonder how long she'll be alive and well? So many of the original witnesses died within a decade, according to at least one of the books, probably Sybil Lee's, or Mark Lane's.

.I will share your digression for a moment Eagle1. The producers of "Beyond Conspiracy" should be arrested as conspirators themselves. Two hours of complete misdirection. All you have to see to know there was a conspiracy to kill JFK in Dallas is this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFpPjjKdUds

[SuperDave]

Markus Wolf, former head of East Germany's State Security Service, died a few weeks ago. When asked about the assassination, he said, "ask Fidel Castro. he knows."

All I'll say on that.

[Solace]

Solace its just my opinion that most folks are over reacting. A six year old girl in a bikini on the beach is only sexy to a pervert just like a six year old girl performing in a pageant costume is not sexy no matter what she's doing. Thousands of girls perform in dance troops and pageants and so on and live perfectly normal lives. Ive never seen a photo showing JBR's hair dyed a different color only lightend or highlighted a bit.
She is most certainly trying to act sexy and someone taught her that. Her hair is platinum blond in the Las Vegas show and others. It is not lightened a little bit. IT IS DYED.

4Sure. You have a right to your opinion, absolutely. But if you are going to say that her hair is not dyed, I would like to ask what photos you are looking at?

[Eagle1]

I will share your digression for a moment Eagle1. The producers of "Beyond Conspiracy" should be arrested as conspirators themselves. Two hours of complete misdirection. All you have to see to know there was a conspiracy to kill JFK in Dallas is this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFpPjjKdUds

I went there and have bookmarked it.

I think Dr. King's security man that he trusted was also called away. And I"m probably the only one who's noticed, all the assassination victims I believe were accused posthumously of having affairs of a sexual nature. And there are always some older cars, some having mud on them. Someone is either obsessed about sex or maybe it's standard procedure somewhere? Don't know re Castro. Guess he could have been involved. There'd been a lot of racial changes attempted.

You're so right, 4Sure, that the program was bad, worst I've ever seen. I didn't even watch it all.

Who do you suppose would tell the Secret Service guys to knock off, who had the 300 license plate? Could you tell what state? I was in a hurry to get back here. Will look again later.

[JMO8778]

Markus Wolf, former head of East Germany's State Security Service, died a few weeks ago. When asked about the assassination, he said, "ask Fidel Castro. he knows."

All I'll say on that.That makes a lot of sense.

[4sure]

Who do you suppose would tell the Secret Service guys to knock off, who had the 300 license plate? Could you tell what state? I was in a hurry to get back here. Will look again later.Like JBR I could never pretend to know 4sure who murdered JFK. For all I know LO did take a few shots at him. I do know that JFK and RFK were p!ssing off everyone. JFK wanted to disband the CIA, replaced milatery heads, had no interest in going to Vietnam, wanted to end the Federal Reserve and give the goverment the right to print USA currency backed by silver, with his brother RFK was writing new laws to help convict mafia heads, supporting the black movement in the south with vigor and supporting an investigation involving his own VP LBJ. Who by the way was probably months from going to jail and rumored to be off the 64 ticket. I think LBJ had the most to gain from JFK's death plus he was a pretty evil man even in Texas ploitics.