A slip-up in the ransom note?

[T-Rex]

"You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a (sic) earlier pick-up of your daughter."

Banks usually open at 9AM. But then the kidnapper says he will call between 8 and 10AM with instructions on delivery. That's exactly when John would be at the bank. "If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early..." How would John possibly get the money earlier than 8AM?

Do you think the writer actually meant the following day, when s/he said "tomorrow"? Meaning the note was written after midnight? Or did s/he just slip up, since it was all nonsense anyway?

[Beyond Belief]

Not to get off ur find, but the word """bring""" to the bank, sounds like the person is at the bank, i would think the word "take" would have been used.

[JMO8778]

Not to get off ur find, but the word """bring""" to the bank, sounds like the person is at the bank, i would think the word "take" would have been used...or at their own home,when it was written?

[icedtea4me]

What if the word "money" doesn't refer to actual cash, but is a code word for something else?


-Tea

[capps]

I have always thought that there was some kind of "message" in the ransom note,and we're just missing it. We're probably missing it,because it's possibly a covert message that makes sense only to the author ... for now.

As silly as this might sound ... but I compare the ransom note to the "Riddler" from Batman,when he use to leave riddles for Batman,and even Batman had to wrack his brain trying to figure out what it is...until at one point something clicks and Batman "gets it",and all of a sudden things come together and the riddle is answered.

I may just have an overactive imagination ... but hey anything is possible,right?

[Chrishope]

I've seen text analysis of the note which says, among other things, the use of "bring" where most people would say "take" is a southern speech habit.

Some people think "tommorow" means the 27th. One reason it might be the 27th is the Rs were giving themselves almost two whole days to dump the body. But they didn't follow through, if that every was their plan.

The calling "earlier" part still makes little sense, imo. If the note meant the call would come the 27th, then the only earlier time JR could get the money would be on the 26th.

The simplest explanation is that the note doens't really make a lot of sense because the author couldn't quite put herself fully in the frame of mind of the hypothetical killer/kidnapper.

[GoodAim]

T-Rex, what you said sounds right: "tomorrow" has to mean December 27 -- the ransom note writer knew it was now (early morning) Dec. 26.

Plus, the note implies that John would need to use that next night (26th into 27th) to get "rested up" for the ordeal. How do you "rest up" in the morning while awaiting a phone call from a kidnapper?

Also, "getting the money earlier" implies that if they got the money on the 26th they might be contacted earlier than 8-10 a.m. on the 27th.

But, like you've all said, trying to parse this garbled note is useless, because it's almost certainly bogus. We've all seen the handwriting samples...

[Kortnie]

Good thinking, T-Rex! I'm a firm believer in the ransom note as a phony document and have studied it but never thought of the time thingy that you did.

I go with your "a slip-up as the whole thing was nonsense anyway."

On the other hand, since JR was an extremely wealthy man, it's conceivable that he would employ people to go to the bank for him etc. Gophers.

But, since "the whole thing is nonsense anyway," whether JR had a Gopher or not doesn't matter.

"Ransom Note" = Staging

[Eagle1]

I have always thought that there was some kind of "message" in the ransom note,and we're just missing it. We're probably missing it,because it's possibly a covert message that makes sense only to the author ... for now.. ... but hey anything is possible,right?

I too keep wondering if there isn't some UNINTENTIONAL slipup in that note. It's too long not to have one, but I just haven't been able to find it. There's bound to be something that's a clue. They're certainly bragging and/or bluffing about being able to "monitor" the family,like international spy wannabe's engaged in this kind of crime. Sort of like a child playing. I keep twisting and turning it in my mind. JR's the one who's been stationed in a foreign country, who may have been approached by someone claiming to be a real spy, a crazy. I don't think PR would have thought about people monitoring people. Any of us can be wrong, of course.

[goddess]

..or at their own home,when it was written?

Yeppers.

[goddess]

I have always thought that there was some kind of "message" in the ransom note,and we're just missing it. We're probably missing it,because it's possibly a covert message that makes sense only to the author ... for now.

As silly as this might sound ... but I compare the ransom note to the "Riddler" from Batman,when he use to leave riddles for Batman,and even Batman had to wrack his brain trying to figure out what it is...until at one point something clicks and Batman "gets it",and all of a sudden things come together and the riddle is answered.

I may just have an overactive imagination ... but hey anything is possible,right?

After reading the excellent book by Andrew Hodges,MD in which he word by word psycholinguisically analyzes the note, I got the 'message' loud and clear. His thoughts and work on this case deserve to at least be read and considered. He makes a lot of sense. It is called, A Mother Gone Bad, I am sure you can find it on amazon. In your scenerio, Dr Hodges is indeed Batman to the Ramsey's Riddler.

[JMO8778]

I too keep wondering if there isn't some UNINTENTIONAL slipup in that note. It's too long not to have one, but I just haven't been able to find it. There's bound to be something that's a clue. They're certainly bragging and/or bluffing about being able to "monitor" the family,like international spy wannabe's engaged in this kind of crime. Sort of like a child playing. I keep twisting and turning it in my mind. JR's the one who's been stationed in a foreign country, who may have been approached by someone claiming to be a real spy, a crazy. I don't think PR would have thought about people monitoring people. Any of us can be wrong, of course.I don't know about all of it,but Jeff Merrick felt the '2 gentlemen' comment was about him and a friend.Listen to the interview Trisha listed,(I don't recall which thread the link is on),but that sounds like the most logical explanation,since JR pointed the finger at him right after the murder.
Other parts seem to be written to throw LHP under the bus,as PR did that immediately.I think JR dictated part of the note to PR,and they both put in a few things that could throw suspicion on more than one person.

[Solace]

I don't know about all of it,but Jeff Merrick felt the '2 gentlemen' comment was about him and a friend.Listen to the interview Trisha listed,(I don't recall which thread the link is on),but that sounds like the most logical explanation,since JR pointed the finger at him right after the murder.
Other parts seem to be written to throw LHP under the bus,as PR did that immediately.I think JR dictated part of the note to PR,and they both put in a few things that could throw suspicion on more than one person.
JMO, Your last sentence really makes sense.

[coloradokares]

I don't know about all of it,but Jeff Merrick felt the '2 gentlemen' comment was about him and a friend.Listen to the interview Trisha listed,(I don't recall which thread the link is on),but that sounds like the most logical explanation,since JR pointed the finger at him right after the murder.
Other parts seem to be written to throw LHP under the bus,as PR did that immediately.I think JR dictated part of the note to PR,and they both put in a few things that could throw suspicion on more than one person.
In my opinion they threw mud in any direction they could fling it in. Hoping any would stick on anybody or nobody in particular at least long enough to get the tires from their bus bumping over the lucky suspect of the weeks backside. To put it succinctly they baffled with brilliance and buffaloed with bull.... you know

[Solace]

In my opinion they threw mud in any direction they could fling it in. Hoping any would stick on anybody or nobody in particular at least long enough to get the tires from their bus bumping over the lucky suspect of the weeks backside. To put it succinctly they baffled with brilliance and buffaloed with bull.... you know
Another thing is they just don't look like they would do it. Hit her so hard her head splits, strangle her, stage a molesting scene with the paintbrush, carry her downstairs, write the note, everything. It is so bizarre the lengths they went to that people just can't believe they would do that.

[coloradokares]

Another thing is they just don't look like they would do it. Hit her so hard her head splits, strangle her, stage a molesting scene with the paintbrush, carry her downstairs, write the note, everything. It is so bizarre the lengths they went to that people just can't believe they would do that.
Crazy like a fox as they say. Personally I think (OMG you wouldn't believe what I did. I just had to erase my family members name and put in Patsy here. Talk about strong feelings and they way they come out. ) Bipolar or some similar mental health issue was behind this. Or at least I think its a strong possibility.

[JMO8778]

In my opinion they threw mud in any direction they could fling it in. Hoping any would stick on anybody or nobody in particular at least long enough to get the tires from their bus bumping over the lucky suspect of the weeks backside. To put it succinctly they baffled with brilliance and buffaloed with bull.... you knowyes,sure was a load of it too!

[JMO8778]

Crazy like a fox as they say. Personally I think (OMG you wouldn't believe what I did. I just had to erase my family members name and put in Patsy here. Talk about strong feelings and they way they come out. ) Bipolar or some similar mental health issue was behind this. Or at least I think its a strong possibility.I think so, too.

[Chrishope]

Another thing is they just don't look like they would do it. Hit her so hard her head splits, strangle her, stage a molesting scene with the paintbrush, carry her downstairs, write the note, everything. It is so bizarre the lengths they went to that people just can't believe they would do that.

But they'll believe someone else did it - anyone else, as long as it's not a Ramsey. It could be FW, or his wife, or the Stine's babysitter, or Chris Wolfe, or JMK, or ....

[JMO8778]

But they'll believe someone else did it - anyone else, as long as it's not a Ramsey. It could be FW, or his wife, or the Stine's babysitter, or Chris Wolfe, or JMK, or ....Ain't that the truth !!

[icedtea4me]

I don't think PR would have thought about people monitoring people.Think about what Patsy experienced.


-Tea

[T-Rex]

Oh-hhhh--that's kind of genius, IcedTea!! You are so right!!!!

(I always thought 'the delivery will be exhausting' was the writer remembering the day Jb was born.)

[Eagle1]

But they'll believe someone else did it - anyone else, as long as it's not a Ramsey. It could be FW, or his wife, or the Stine's babysitter, or Chris Wolfe, or JMK, or ....

All of us know all the facts which are available to the public, and those of us who're sure all the facts just aren't in yet have a right and duty to maintain that there could be an even worse genius of evil out there, than the Patsy that RDI's are describing.

Yes of course she could have snapped, but, another supernatural factor since someone wrote a nice dream interpretation, I have to REMIND us. Some may not believe there's a devil, who has a beastly destructive UNDERGROUND and a false clergyman OPPOSING Christians for a time, in the tech age, when people fly and there's watergating type abuses. Notice the RN mentions monitoring, as if really extremely proud of that, "bragging". It may be a bigger clue than we have thought. We'll see.

So they could have that and other methods of studying PR and learning to forge her, which ways and means I can't describe to you in detail, wouldn't know.

The prediction's in Holy Writ, nobody can keep any secrets from him. Ezekiel I think, approximately chapter 36 or 37 or thereabouts. I don't think that's exactly the reference. If really interested in checking this out, try BlueLetterBible.org's easy word seach, "secrets" and like that.

These demons will be brought to justice, and will have even more faults and experiences, maybe imagined, than PR. The R's I guess had to cover for whoever it was because they were left holding the bag. Sure PR could have been crazy from her meds and cancer experience, but lots of other people have gone through what she did, and didn't lose it with a child this bad. She's not the only one. Someone's coming along which will knock your socks off, probably causing the Iraq war which I'm afraid may be dangerously depleting our military people. (A double agent?) Another famous ancient prophet, Isaiah, 14:20, says he will have somehow destroyed his own nation.

Sure, we know how things look right now, and can keep shouting it from the housetops, but we surely don't know the whole story yet. It's just not over till it's over. I'm reserving judgement.

Nothing has happened to Patsy that isn't fairly common to humankind, sad to say. Lots of moms have had cancer and died because of it. She stayed strong, coherent and lucid through a long seige of being accused by all those rushing to judgement, after losing her obsession child. Someone will say it was because of her obsession that she lost it with JonBenet. Not necessarily so. Maybe that kind of a mom would have committed suicide. She held up amazingly well through almost a decade. The mother in Hawaii who drowned her 5 children in a bathtub before Yates did, finally hanged herself, or maybe was hanged, take your pick, near a chicken house or something like that. I forget her name.

We do have tidbits of info about people in other areas of the country just before this happened, hate propagandists trying to poison the well against this whole family even before the murder happened. They'd been marked for quite a while, and maybe JonBenet's attempting a 911 call at the Whites' speeded up the process, or, someone there telling her Santa would make another visit may indicate that for some previous reason the date had already been selected. Anything can sound like truth until you hear "the other side" or possible "other side". There's a whole 'nother scenario very possible and maybe probable. Something was going on, all along. That just annot be ignored. It's part of the picture.

The person who's more evil than we can imagine may like to create coincidences and confusion, picking people for this scenario who could all be suspected, lots more "evil genius" than PR could ever have had. If we should get nuked or something, I guess this unknown would be behind it, playing religions and nations against each other. Notice I said "I guess". I don't know if Karr may be involved after all. I was one of the first to say he probably wasn't. He just knew Nedra's nickname, could have heard it from some of the bragging hate propagandists. Interesting.

[coloradokares]

All of us know all the facts which are available to the public, and those of us who're sure all the facts just aren't in yet have a right and duty to maintain that there could be an even worse genius of evil out there, than the Patsy that RDI's are describing.

Yes of course she could have snapped, but, another supernatural factor since someone wrote a nice dream interpretation, I have to REMIND us. Some may not believe there's a devil, who has a beastly destructive UNDERGROUND and a false clergyman OPPOSING Christians for a time, in the tech age, when people fly and there's watergating type abuses. Notice the RN mentions monitoring, as if really extremely proud of that, "bragging". It may be a bigger clue than we have thought. We'll see.

So they could have that and other methods of studying PR and learning to forge her, which ways and means I can't describe to you in detail, wouldn't know.

The prediction's in Holy Writ, nobody can keep any secrets from him. Ezekiel I think, approximately chapter 36 or 37 or thereabouts. I don't think that's exactly the reference. If really interested in checking this out, try BlueLetterBible.org's easy word seach, "secrets" and like that.

These demons will be brought to justice, and will have even more faults and experiences, maybe imagined, than PR. The R's I guess had to cover for whoever it was because they were left holding the bag. Sure PR could have been crazy from her meds and cancer experience, but lots of other people have gone through what she did, and didn't lose it with a child this bad. She's not the only one. Someone's coming along which will knock your socks off, probably causing the Iraq war which I'm afraid may be dangerously depleting our military people. (A double agent?) Another famous ancient prophet, Isaiah, 14:20, says he will have somehow destroyed his own nation.

Sure, we know how things look right now, and can keep shouting it from the housetops, but we surely don't know the whole story yet. It's just not over till it's over. I'm reserving judgement.

Nothing has happened to Patsy that isn't fairly common to humankind, sad to say. Lots of moms have had cancer and died because of it. She stayed strong, coherent and lucid through a long seige of being accused by all those rushing to judgement, after losing her obsession child. Someone will say it was because of her obsession that she lost it with JonBenet. Not necessarily so. Maybe that kind of a mom would have committed suicide. She held up amazingly well through almost a decade. The mother in Hawaii who drowned her 5 children in a bathtub before Yates did, finally hanged herself, or maybe was hanged, take your pick, near a chicken house or something like that. I forget her name.

We do have tidbits of info about people in other areas of the country just before this happened, hate propagandists trying to poison the well against this whole family even before the murder happened. They'd been marked for quite a while, and maybe JonBenet's attempting a 911 call at the Whites' speeded up the process, or, someone there telling her Santa would make another visit may indicate that for some previous reason the date had already been selected. Anything can sound like truth until you hear "the other side" or possible "other side". There's a whole 'nother scenario very possible and maybe probable. Something was going on, all along. That just annot be ignored. It's part of the picture.

The person who's more evil than we can imagine may like to create coincidences and confusion, picking people for this scenario who could all be suspected, lots more "evil genius" than PR could ever have had. If we should get nuked or something, I guess this unknown would be behind it, playing religions and nations against each other. Notice I said "I guess". I don't know if Karr may be involved after all. I was one of the first to say he probably wasn't. He just knew Nedra's nickname, could have heard it from some of the bragging hate propagandists. Interesting.
Not sure quite how you got New World Order what sounds like the Antichrist but for the 666 and Armageddon and the murder of JonBenet all mixed up into one tidy package. Do you really believe this is so? I have to ask if you really think this.

[poco]

T-Rex, what you said sounds right: "tomorrow" has to mean December 27 -- the ransom note writer knew it was now (early morning) Dec. 26.

Plus, the note implies that John would need to use that next night (26th into 27th) to get "rested up" for the ordeal. How do you "rest up" in the morning while awaiting a phone call from a kidnapper?

Also, "getting the money earlier" implies that if they got the money on the 26th they might be contacted earlier than 8-10 a.m. on the 27th.

But, like you've all said, trying to parse this garbled note is useless, because it's almost certainly bogus. We've all seen the handwriting samples...

You are correct - he would obviously have to get the money earlier than the next day between 8-10 because the banks don't open until at least 9 - at least mine don't. Why would the kidnapper/killer even write something that stupid. The whole thing is too wordy, with too many instructions. WHY was this note, IMO, ridiculous - because none of it was actual instructions and none of them would be carried out - JonBenet was dead - she was found in the basement and the writer knew she was already dead.

I would think had this actually been a REAL ransom note from a REAL FOREIGN FACTION, the note would have been more thought out and not as long. - We got your daughter, we want $118,00 for her safe release. DO NOT CONTACT THE POLICE. We will contact you tomorrow between 12 and 4 p.m." - BINGO, end of note.....

[Chrishope]

You are correct - he would obviously have to get the money earlier than the next day between 8-10 because the banks don't open until at least 9 - at least mine don't. Why would the kidnapper/killer even write something that stupid. The whole thing is too wordy, with too many instructions. WHY was this note, IMO, ridiculous - because none of it was actual instructions and none of them would be carried out - JonBenet was dead - she was found in the basement and the writer knew she was already dead.

I would think had this actually been a REAL ransom note from a REAL FOREIGN FACTION, the note would have been more thought out and not as long. - We got your daughter, we want $118,00 for her safe release. DO NOT CONTACT THE POLICE. We will contact you tomorrow between 12 and 4 p.m." - BINGO, end of note.....


Exactly.

There's an old saying that goes something like this - Sorry for the length of this letter but I didn't have time to write a short one.

The meaning of course is that editing requires thought, and thought takes time. If it were a real ransom note it would have said "We've got the girl. We'll call you. Have $1,000,000 ready in small bills."

Even IDIs can't make themselves swallow the idea of it being a ransom note, which is why they now claim it's a revenge note filled with clues from some "Riddler"-like criminal mastermind. And of course, that theory can't be disproven - short of getting a conviction- so they can continue to believe it forever.

[4sure]

Even IDIs can't make themselves swallow the idea of it being a ransom note, which is why they now claim it's a revenge note filled with clues from some "Riddler"-like criminal mastermind. And of course, that theory can't be disproven - short of getting a conviction- so they can continue to believe it forever.Is that any different than RDIs that think the RN was written by Patsy because it's filled with clues from Patsy. And don't give that handwritting bull because thats just more LE lies in order to pressure the R's into confessing.

[Jay78]

Is that any different than RDIs that think the RN was written by Patsy because it's filled with clues from Patsy. And don't give that handwritting bull because thats just more LE lies in order to pressure the R's into confessing.
Steve Thomas has evidence that patsy ramseys handwriting style changed dramatically after the murder for one thing, and for another, there are clues in the note. For instance, Patsy and her mother used to joke about John being southern even those he was from MI. and how do you explain the 118,000 amount that was the amount of John's bonus?

[cynpat2000]

Is that any different than RDIs that think the RN was written by Patsy because it's filled with clues from Patsy. And don't give that handwritting bull because thats just more LE lies in order to pressure the R's into confessing. The handwriting being a close match is not LE lies , go to acandyrose.com and see for yourself. There are numerous similarities of Patsys sample to the "ransom" note.

[Eagle1]

The handwriting being a close match is not LE lies , go to acandyrose.com and see for yourself. There are numerous similarities of Patsys sample to the "ransom" note.

How many Karrs may pop up, whose handwriting has just as many similarities as JMKarr's and Patsy's? IOW, you just can't go by that?

[Eagle1]

Exactly.

There's an old saying that goes something like this - Sorry for the length of this letter but I didn't have time to write a short one. ....... Even IDIs can't make themselves swallow the idea of it being a ransom note, which is why they now claim it's a revenge note filled with clues from some "Riddler"-like criminal mastermind. And of course, that theory can't be disproven - short of getting a conviction- so they can continue to believe it forever.

Good one, Chrishope.

And I like the expression "riddler". Wasn't there one in the Batman radio programs back in the previous century in "Gotham City"?

Editing to add that your snap-judgement theory can't be disproven w/out a conviction either, so we're even. And I'm still an FS, but we do have to allow for possibilities like this "riddler" one, who could be running Karr, and no-telling how many others like him. Others may still pop up.

[rashomon]

I would think had this actually been a REAL ransom note from a REAL FOREIGN FACTION, the note would have been more thought out and not as long. - We got your daughter, we want $118,00 for her safe release. DO NOT CONTACT THE POLICE. We will contact you tomorrow between 12 and 4 p.m." - BINGO, end of note.....
And you can bet your bottom dollar that if this had actually been a REAL FOREIGN FACTION they would have asked for a far bigger sum than those ridiculous $118,000. Laughable.
John Ramsey was a multimillionaire who, according to friends, could have raised a ransom sum up to ten million dollars without any problem.

[cynpat2000]

How many Karrs may pop up, whose handwriting has just as many similarities as JMKarr's and Patsy's? IOW, you just can't go by that? Its more than similar its a complete match, now how many can do that ?? Here see for yourself.

http://pages.prodigy.net/victorag/tax-form_compare.jpg

http://pages.prodigy.net/victorag/tax-form_compare.jpg

[JMO8778]

How many Karrs may pop up, whose handwriting has just as many similarities as JMKarr's and Patsy's? IOW, you just can't go by that?IMO,it's the liguistics used, as well as what was said.Karr wouldn't write something as dumb as 'use that good southern common sense of yours',along with all the other nonsensical phrases,when he didn't even know the family.

[SuperDave]

Steve Thomas has evidence that patsy ramseys handwriting style changed dramatically after the murder for one thing, and for another, there are clues in the note. For instance, Patsy and her mother used to joke about John being southern even those he was from MI. and how do you explain the 118,000 amount that was the amount of John's bonus?

The handwriting being a close match is not LE lies , go to acandyrose.com and see for yourself. There are numerous similarities of Patsys sample to the "ransom" note.

I'm not usually one to beat up on someone, but I believe my own eyes!

How many Karrs may pop up, whose handwriting has just as many similarities as JMKarr's and Patsy's? IOW, you just can't go by that?

We DON'T!

[4sure]

The handwriting being a close match is not LE lies , go to acandyrose.com and see for yourself. There are numerous similarities of Patsys sample to the "ransom" note.Yes I see them. I also saw "shall be the conqueror" and so called experts telling me JMK's hand writing matched even better than Patsys.
Its wonderful speculation.
It's meaningless as evidence.

[icedtea4me]

"You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a (sic) earlier pick-up of your daughter."
Let's take another look at the last line as it was originally written- "If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery (scribbled out) pick-up of your daughter."

Now, how about if, for consistency sake, the "we" is changed to an "I" since this could be a message from Patsy to John. And I brought up the possibility about the word "money" actually being a symbolic code word for something else other than cash money. So let's substitute "something" for "money". Finally, let's keep in flow with the mind set of the writer and leave in the last "delivery" and omit the "pick-up" for the time being. This is what the result would be-

"If I (Patsy) monitor you (John) getting the "something" early, I might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the "something" and hence a earlier delivery of your daughter".


-Tea

[icedtea4me]

and maybe JonBenet's attempting a 911 call at the Whites' speeded up the process,JonBenet attempting a 911 call at the Whites'? Source, please.
or, someone there telling her Santa would make another visit may indicate that for some previous reason the date had already been selected.Someone where? At the Whites'? They were at the Whites' on the 25th, and JonBenet made the Santa visit comment to Mrs. Kostanick on the 24th.


-Tea

[Chrishope]

Is that any different than RDIs that think the RN was written by Patsy because it's filled with clues from Patsy. And don't give that handwritting bull because thats just more LE lies in order to pressure the R's into confessing.


Not the same sort of clues at all. In the "Riddler" theory of a revenge note, it's claimed the note has messages that wouldn't mean anything to you and I but mean something to JR.

The only clues I know of RDIs speaking of are linguistic habits that indicate it was written by a southerner, and quite likely a woman.

[Chrishope]

Good one, Chrishope.

And I like the expression "riddler". Wasn't there one in the Batman radio programs back in the previous century in "Gotham City"?

Editing to add that your snap-judgement theory can't be disproven w/out a conviction either, so we're even. And I'm still an FS, but we do have to allow for possibilities like this "riddler" one, who could be running Karr, and no-telling how many others like him. Others may still pop up.

No, we aren't even. You are still behind. My theory isn't based on a snap judgment. It's based on handwritting comparisson and text analysis, and the likelihood of an intruder writing the note vs. the likelihood of one of the Rs writing it.

You can tell yourself your a FS all you like, but you are IDI. Only an IDI supposses that there is a cartoon-like mastermind running Karr and others like him.

[Eagle1]

JonBenet attempting a 911 call at the Whites'? Source, please.
Someone where? At the Whites'? They were at the Whites' on the 25th, and JonBenet made the Santa visit comment to Mrs. Kostanick on the 24th.
-Tea

Since FW's claiming he himself made the interrupted 911 call by mistake, apparently it doesn't occur to anyone that JonBenet may have been making it and may have had the phone grabbed away from her by any of the group. So there's no "source" that I know of for this thought. I didn't say or mean to imply that there was. It just seems so obvious to me. Right after (?) or before (?) Janet McReynolds had found her crying on the back steps, she may have tried a phone call because none of the adults, not even her parents, were paying any attention to her, and she may have been in pain, because coroners said there was an injury that had been healing for, I believe, 48 to 72 hrs.

To me this is simple logic. Remember, when people make rash statements that the R's did this, that, or the other, they don't give a source. There is none, and often I can't agree with the conclusions "jumped to", no matter how strongly they feel about it. Sometimes there's a good point and I acknowledge it, but we're getting a bit off the subject of handwriting.

[Eagle1]

I think we're in agreement that you can't judge this case by handwriting, because already there's at least one other person, from the Atlanta area, whose handwriting has just as many similarities or maybe more. Did anyone count?

How's this, just to give our imaginations a stretch and a workout? That alleged "training camp" in Georgia somewhere, that Bin Laden and Lucas and Toole all allegedly attended, has anyone heard a name for it? Not Satanist? But what?

I have no idea how the Paugh/Ramseys of Atlanta would catch such peoples' attention, maybe pedophiles' networking, noticing the pageants, but "what if" their ring leader had a bunch of people practicing imitating Patsy's handwriting, and the winner was going to be the one to write the ransom note? So that there may be several more who could come close? Reason "Because we can"???

If any of this is true, conceivably they could have had Karr to do this confessing and that they'd use connections to get him off, all because they're proud of their tactics and afraid they're being forgotten? Just beating the bushes. Any bushes. Not saying it's a definite theory, or that it has any source, just "Freewriting", a term from a journalizm class. We'd write a couple of pages and then edit into a story paragraph. This might give one or more of you an even better idea.

Was there a slip-up in the RN? I think their boasting about monitoring the family may be one, but I can't think of anything further on that. Someone else?

[Chrishope]

I think we're in agreement that you can't judge this case by handwriting, because already there's at least one other person, from the Atlanta area, whose handwriting has just as many similarities or maybe more. Did anyone count?

How's this, just to give our imaginations a stretch and a workout? That alleged "training camp" in Georgia somewhere, that Bin Laden and Lucas and Toole all allegedly attended, has anyone heard a name for it? Not Satanist? But what?

I have no idea how the Paugh/Ramseys of Atlanta would catch such peoples' attention, maybe pedophiles' networking, noticing the pageants, but "what if" their ring leader had a bunch of people practicing imitating Patsy's handwriting, and the winner was going to be the one to write the ransom note? So that there may be several more who could come close? Reason "Because we can"???

If any of this is true, conceivably they could have had Karr to do this confessing and that they'd use connections to get him off, all because they're proud of their tactics and afraid they're being forgotten? Just beating the bushes. Any bushes. Not saying it's a definite theory, or that it has any source, just "Freewriting", a term from a journalizm class. We'd write a couple of pages and then edit into a story paragraph. This might give one or more of you an even better idea.

Was there a slip-up in the RN? I think their boasting about monitoring the family may be one, but I can't think of anything further on that. Someone else?

For some reason, while I was reading that, I kept hearing the theme from the Twighlight Zone.

[Eagle1]

For some reason, while I was reading that, I kept hearing the theme from the Twighlight Zone.

Batman's villains might also come to mind? But really, what about that camp?

[Chrishope]

Batman's villains might also come to mind? But really, what about that camp?


I connected the training camp idea to my digital palusibility meter and the number that came up was negative one hundred. ( -100)

[Chrishope]

I think we're in agreement that you can't judge this case by handwriting, ...


On this I'm largely in agreement. Handwritting "experts" insist PR's writing looks like the RN, then when Karr comes along, dozens of "experts" insist his writing is like the RN. There is a plausible case to be made that JR's writing looks like the RN.

Personally, I'll just trust my eyes.

The problem is there is no real "science" involved. I like the textual analysis better, as it yeilds clues as to the writer's habits, not just the similarity of the handwritting.

[4sure]

I connected the training camp idea to my digital palusibility meter and the number that came up was negative one hundred. ( -100)How does the Mafia rate on this meter? Do you think they exist? Do you think they blackmail politicians with sex and money? Do you remember what the mafia's main goal was in the Godfather? In case you don't remember it was getting their own elected to office rather than having to bribe elected officials. Do you remember who became the mafia's best buds in the 60's? Does CIA mean anything to you? Do you know who works hand in hand with the CIA? Defense contractors. What's LM? That right a defense contractor. Would a local DA's office bow down to a nobody like JR who company was bought out from underneath him like a child buys a candy bar by LM? Doubt it very much. They may however be pressured to cover up for much more important people.

[Chrishope]

How does the Mafia rate on this meter? Do you think they exist? Do you think they blackmail politicians with sex and money? Do you remember what the mafia's main goal was in the Godfather? In case you don't remember it was getting their own elected to office rather than having to bribe elected officials. Do you remember who became the mafia's best buds in the 60's? Does CIA mean anything to you? Do you know who works hand in hand with the CIA? Defense contractors. What's LM? That right a defense contractor. Would a local DA's office bow down to a nobody like JR who company was bought out from underneath him like a child buys a candy bar by LM? Doubt it very much. They may however be pressured to cover up for much more important people.

"Do do do do, do do do do, .... You are about to take a journey. A journey not of sight, or of sound, but one of immagination.... "

[icedtea4me]

Since FW's claiming he himself made the interrupted 911 call by mistake, apparently it doesn't occur to anyone that JonBenet may have been making it and may have had the phone grabbed away from her by any of the group. So there's no "source" that I know of for this thought.I am aware of the call Fleet White tried to make from the Ramseys' home on the 23rd when he inadvertently dialed 911 instead. But you said
JonBenet attempting a 911 call at the Whites'and I want to know the source of this attempted phone call on the 25th.


-Tea

[SuperDave]

Let's dial it back a little, shall we?

Yes I see them. I also saw "shall be the conqueror" and so called experts telling me JMK's hand writing matched even better than Patsys.
Its wonderful speculation.
It's meaningless as evidence.

That, sadly, is the nature of the beast.

On this I'm largely in agreement. Handwritting "experts" insist PR's writing looks like the RN, then when Karr comes along, dozens of "experts" insist his writing is like the RN. There is a plausible case to be made that JR's writing looks like the RN.

Personally, I'll just trust my eyes.

The problem is there is no real "science" involved. I like the textual analysis better, as it yeilds clues as to the writer's habits, not just the similarity of the handwritting.

True enough. Like I told Eagle1, if we went JUST by the handwriting, we'd be nowhere.

[cynpat2000]

Let's dial it back a little, shall we?



That, sadly, is the nature of the beast.



True enough. Like I told Eagle1, if we went JUST by the handwriting, we'd be nowhere. Exactly , the handwriting is just a small part of the Ramseys guilt..

[Cranberry]

Let's take another look at the last line as it was originally written- "If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery (scribbled out) pick-up of your daughter."

Now, how about if, for consistency sake, the "we" is changed to an "I" since this could be a message from Patsy to John. And I brought up the possibility about the word "money" actually being a symbolic code word for something else other than cash money. So let's substitute "something" for "money". Finally, let's keep in flow with the mind set of the writer and leave in the last "delivery" and omit the "pick-up" for the time being. This is what the result would be-

"If I (Patsy) monitor you (John) getting the "something" early, I might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the "something" and hence a earlier delivery of your daughter".


-Tea








Hi Tea, That is so interesting, and I'm glad you posted it. At the monetary line of $100.00 and $20.00, I always think: find 'something' here and remains found there. I know that doesn't make sense at the moment, lol, but when I study it more we can discuss all the possibilities. Thanks Tea!

[goddess]

Is that any different than RDIs that think the RN was written by Patsy because it's filled with clues from Patsy. And don't give that handwritting bull because thats just more LE lies in order to pressure the R's into confessing.

Actually, reading hodges psycolinguistic analysis of the note, (plus he analyzed several other letters the rams had written, both before and after murder), plus several handwring analyses convinced me Patsy wrote the note.

I have a link to a document that totally convinced me. Miller takes every letter of the note, and matches them up to patsy's exemplars for each letter, some letters match written different ways. It is almost chilling to read the last ten pages of this document. It is pdf, so for dial ups, it can be a tad slow.
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

[Chrishope]

Actually, reading hodges psycolinguistic analysis of the note, (plus he analyzed several other letters the rams had written, both before and after murder), plus several handwring analyses convinced me Patsy wrote the note.

I have a link to a document that totally convinced me. Miller takes every letter of the note, and matches them up to patsy's exemplars for each letter, some letters match written different ways. It is almost chilling to read the last ten pages of this document. It is pdf, so for dial ups, it can be a tad slow.
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf


Thank you for that.

[T-Rex]

"Scrutiny" could sum up the whole motive. It implies not just being watched, but that the writer felt the family was being "constantly" watched and judged.

[JMO8778]

Since FW's claiming he himself made the interrupted 911 call by mistake, apparently it doesn't occur to anyone that JonBenet may have been making it and may have had the phone grabbed away from her by any of the group. So there's no "source" that I know of for this thought. I didn't say or mean to imply that there was. It just seems so obvious to me. Right after (?) or before (?) Janet McReynolds had found her crying on the back steps, she may have tried a phone call because none of the adults, not even her parents, were paying any attention to her, and she may have been in pain, because coroners said there was an injury that had been healing for, I believe, 48 to 72 hrs.

To me this is simple logic.Add to that the fact Susan Stine answered the police herself,though the intercom and without opening the door to them,which I find odd considering it wasn't her house..as well as neither of the R's came to the door to find out what was going on.Strange,IMO.

[Eagle1]

"Scrutiny" could sum up the whole motive. It implies not just being watched, but that the writer felt the family was being "constantly" watched and judged.

Amen, T-Rex. Exactly.

I've always felt the note was a way of bragging and showing off about the monitoring and scrutiny, something that makes somebody feel powerful and special and he almost blows his cover by wanting attention about it.

Goddess, do you happen to know exactly how many similarities there were in Karr's handwriting, some of it from his h.s. yearbook I believe, and how many of Patsy's? Which of them had more? We really need to know nad I somehow missed that detail, if it's ever been given.

I've been wondering also if Karr maybe attended that 7-wks training camp in Georgia, and if there are other camps like it all over, who or what runs them, and like that.

[SuperDave]

I trust my own eyes.

[narlacat]

Amen, T-Rex. Exactly.

I've always felt the note was a way of bragging and showing off about the monitoring and scrutiny, something that makes somebody feel powerful and special and he almost blows his cover by wanting attention about it.

Goddess, do you happen to know exactly how many similarities there were in Karr's handwriting, some of it from his h.s. yearbook I believe, and how many of Patsy's? Which of them had more? We really need to know nad I somehow missed that detail, if it's ever been given.

I've been wondering also if Karr maybe attended that 7-wks training camp in Georgia, and if there are other camps like it all over, who or what runs them, and like that.
Why are people still wondering about Karr.
He didn't do it..

[Eagle1]

Why are people still wondering about Karr.
He didn't do it..

Because so far he's just all we've got. And he could have been involved, and/or could know who else was. The media's saying he's not cleared.

[coloradokares]

Because so far he's just all we've got. And he could have been involved, and/or could know who else was. The media's saying he's not cleared.
We have more than Karr. He might be all the IDI's have but he is not the lone suspect.

[Nuisanceposter]

Right. The Ramseys are still suspects.

[Eagle1]

We have more than Karr. He might be all the IDI's have but he is not the lone suspect.

Excuse my poor choice of words. I didn't mean to imply that a whole bunch of others, known or unknown, including the R's, couldn't have been involved.

Karr's just the only one we were hearing about recently, and he's really not completely cleared. I do think it was more than one person. And that the Rs' choice of friends was a bit oddball.

[sandraladeda]

I think we can say that, for all intents and purposes, Karr HAS been cleared. I think it's just media spin, keeping this dead story alive that motivates some to say that Karr is not cleared. He's cleared. Alibi'ed. No dna match, No match of story/facts of case. Anyone sick enough can confess. This does not make them guilty of anything beyond mental illness. Karr is mentally ill. Period. amen. Let it go.

[Eagle1]

We have more than Karr. He might be all the IDI's have but he is not the lone suspect.

He's not the lone suspect, and isn't even "all the IDI's have", imfso (In my Fence Sitter neutral opinion).

And I just thought of something about coincidences. Wasn't John Lennon's killer named John Mark something? Isn't it a coincidence there should be another John Mark, in this case too?

I think the R's and nearly their whole group of friends are suspect, as well as Karr, re simple INVOLVEMENT. Not saying any certain one did it, but that there's oddball things we know already about several of them, a fairly large percent.

Just a few of the examples, (1) McReynolds' harp with notches for dead little friends, (2) S. Stine talking to police through the door, not letting them in to investigate an aborted 911 call, (3) the California guys allegedly belonging to a Kali cult, and we could go on and on. There are just as many examples of strange things about the R's. Nobody's disputing that. But that doesn't negate these other things. No way.

[JMO8778]

That Susan Stine..I have to wonder why she wasn't worried about driving BR and her own son to school...looks like she would have been afraid of a killer of some sort,if she thought the R's innocent.

[Nuisanceposter]

Lennon's killer was named Mark David Chapman.

[Eagle1]

Lennon's killer was named Mark David Chapman.

Thanks, NP.

JMO, mothers protecting their kids can feel pretty invincible. My husband used to say, "You'd fight lions and tigers for your kids, wouldn't you?" when I surprised even myself taking on whoever or whatever because I'm normally a very quiet, to an extreme, and thoughtful person, never protect myself in clinches which don't involve the children as I do when they have a problem. One time one kid was supposed to get an award so we all dressed and hauled our you-know-what's over there and sat through it, but they'd left hers out! I don't even know what I said in the note I fired off under the principal's door. She said she got her award later. Took me for granted and didn't even tell me until I brought it up later. Do the kids fight for me? Nope, afraid not. They assume I can easily handle anything, but for myself, I'm a loser. Born shy. It takes the kids to bring out the mama bear in me. Hormones?

Don't they also call Stine "Bulldog" or something like that? She's probably a lot worse than I am. I certainly don't think I would have talked to police through an intercom , refused to even open the door, and turned them away!

[Vegas Bride]

About Stine not letting the police in. I always thought it was very unusual that the police didn't insist on checking inside the house just to make sure everything was indeed ok. What if there was a home invasion and she was told to get rid of the cops?

VB

[JMO8778]

About Stine not letting the police in. I always thought it was very unusual that the police didn't insist on checking inside the house just to make sure everything was indeed ok. What if there was a home invasion and she was told to get rid of the cops?

VBWeird indeed.They should have insisted she at least open the door.

[JMO8778]

Thanks, NP.

JMO, mothers protecting their kids can feel pretty invincible. My husband used to say, "You'd fight lions and tigers for your kids, wouldn't you?" when I surprised even myself taking on whoever or whatever because I'm normally a very quiet, to an extreme, and thoughtful person, never protect myself in clinches which don't involve the children as I do when they have a problem. One time one kid was supposed to get an award so we all dressed and hauled our you-know-what's over there and sat through it, but they'd left hers out! I don't even know what I said in the note I fired off under the principal's door. She said she got her award later. Took me for granted and didn't even tell me until I brought it up later. Do the kids fight for me? Nope, afraid not. They assume I can easily handle anything, but for myself, I'm a loser. Born shy. It takes the kids to bring out the mama bear in me. Hormones?

Don't they also call Stine "Bulldog" or something like that? She's probably a lot worse than I am. I KWYM,I have 2 kids..teenagers actually.. and tend to be quiet and shy...until it comes to them! :) I'd fight fire with fire and and spit nails to protect them! But...that's just it.I don't think SS did enough,no matter how invincible she felt.I would have at least asked for a police escort.I felt she was too passive,just like the R's were (and still are).
I also would have stayed in Atlanta,or at least let the child stay there with family..it would seem to be a lot safer.I think the only reason they went back to Boulder was for appearances only.They sure didn't help police for 4 mo.Again,that's way too passive...I would have at least stayed quietly and in a different city,further away from Boulder.

[Eagle1]

About Stine not letting the police in. I always thought it was very unusual that the police didn't insist on checking inside the house just to make sure everything was indeed ok. What if there was a home invasion and she was told to get rid of the cops?

VB

Me too, guys. You'd think it would have raised their suspicions that something was going on in there.

And something probably was. Maybe they were all in it together. Whatever the heck it was. I think that's what's frustrating us, a sense of their all or nearly all having been involved in something, but what? Ant the BPD maybe also knowing!

[cynpat2000]

I think we can say that, for all intents and purposes, Karr HAS been cleared. I think it's just media spin, keeping this dead story alive that motivates some to say that Karr is not cleared. He's cleared. Alibi'ed. No dna match, No match of story/facts of case. Anyone sick enough can confess. This does not make them guilty of anything beyond mental illness. Karr is mentally ill. Period. amen. Let it go.:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[AlwaysShocked]

For me, it is not only the shape and spacing of the actual letters in the ransom note, it is the language. Who uses terminology like "fat cats", "hence" and "don't try to grow a brain"? Supposedly Patsy Ramsey was known to use all three, either in speech or prior writings.

Just for fun - How many on this board have ever used the term "fat cat"? How about "hence? How about "don't try to grow a brain"?

My own answers are "never, never, and never"

[JMO8778]

Just for fun - How many on this board have ever used the term "fat cat"? How about "hence? How about "don't try to grow a brain"?

My own answers are "never, never, and never"mine-no,no and nope

[Charlie]

I think we can say that, for all intents and purposes, Karr HAS been cleared. I think it's just media spin, keeping this dead story alive that motivates some to say that Karr is not cleared. He's cleared. Alibi'ed. No dna match, No match of story/facts of case. Anyone sick enough can confess. This does not make them guilty of anything beyond mental illness. Karr is mentally ill. Period. amen. Let it go.

agreed.

[Charlie]

Actually, reading hodges psycolinguistic analysis of the note, (plus he analyzed several other letters the rams had written, both before and after murder), plus several handwring analyses convinced me Patsy wrote the note.

I have a link to a document that totally convinced me. Miller takes every letter of the note, and matches them up to patsy's exemplars for each letter, some letters match written different ways. It is almost chilling to read the last ten pages of this document. It is pdf, so for dial ups, it can be a tad slow.
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf

Great comparison work between rn and patsy's exemplers. The letter "q" nails it for me, who else writes "q"s like that?

[Eagle1]

I'll just take your word for it that a lot of PR's letters tend to match, but also a lot of Karr's, from a h.s. yearbook, did too!

We've never said he's the killer, or that he's not a nut case, but that handwriting and the "shabby" bear which only appeared the night of the murder in JonBenet's room and then disappeared again, which the media never mention, certainly may show he was somehow involved. The bear JBR was given at a pageant was white.

Matter of fact a lot of people may have been involved, all over the place, not just in the house.

Their leaving no evidence could just mean they all double- checked for any clues before leaving, the old two or more heads are better than one rationale. There being no definite universally accepted evidence of even one intruder doesn't prove a darned thing.

Remember I'm staying unbiased, not an IDI, but certain things in the staging, for instance the dictionary picture that ST said was added to the evidence pkt after the crime scene had been processed, which wasn't there then, you know the R's wouldn't have planted themselves. They wouldn't stage an "incest" clue, about themselves. Somebody who was probably involved had to have done that who was putting it all on them. We've discussed this before, so I'll not go into other examples again, could get very boring.

[icedtea4me]

Remember I'm staying unbiased, not an IDI, but certain things in the staging, for instance the dictionary picture that ST said was added to the evidence pkt after the crime scene had been processed, which wasn't there then, you know the R's wouldn't have planted themselves. They wouldn't stage an "incest" clue, about themselves. Somebody who was probably involved had to have done that who was putting it all on them. We've discussed this before, so I'll not go into other examples again, could get very boring.From Thomas's book pg. 263-

When we checked the photos from a big manila envelope marked as evidence item #85KKY, I almost fell out of my chair, and Peck inhaled in sharp surprise. A picture showed Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary on a coffee table in the first floor study, the corner of the lower left-hand page sharply creased and pointing like an arrow to the word incest. Someone had apparently been looking for a definition of sexual contact between family members.


I see no statement from Thomas that this pic had been added. And one might think the Ramseys wouldn't put forth such a clue, but they would if they were crying out "This is what went down! Please, catch us!"


-Tea

[coloradokares]

I KWYM,I have 2 kids..teenagers actually.. and tend to be quiet and shy...until it comes to them! :) I'd fight fire with fire and and spit nails to protect them! But...that's just it.I don't think SS did enough,no matter how invincible she felt.I would have at least asked for a police escort.I felt she was too passive,just like the R's were (and still are).
I also would have stayed in Atlanta,or at least let the child stay there with family..it would seem to be a lot safer.I think the only reason they went back to Boulder was for appearances only.They sure didn't help police for 4 mo.Again,that's way too passive...I would have at least stayed quietly and in a different city,further away from Boulder.
You realize while your saying that, if you remember they did not have that option to leave Boulder except for the funeral Remember the police telling John your NOT going anywhere. When he wanted to fly them to Atlanta yet that day. I think the reason they returned when they did is upon attorney advice. So they did not get extradition like Karr. I have no proof of that and its my opinion and the opinion of alot who might have been in a postion to know. Lets say it was rumored they'd be on their way back to Boulder one way or the other. I think Boulder was as courteous as they could be in extending them the time they did. I know that they moved away but its my belief they did not until some agreements were made regarding Atlanta or MI picking them up in the event of. These were and are suspects in a murder. You know they felt the GJ would indict so they evey had agreements how that would be handled should the GJ have indicted. To come voluntarily and surrender quietly vs. media frenzzy. I think there was more back scene agreements than one thinks. Had their not been I am sure if Ramseys would have pushed theyd of felt the shove full force coming back in their direction ......If you have doubts think of Scott Petersen trying to go golfing that day he was picked up. Lets say I believe the Ramseys enjoyed the freedom they did at the courtesy of agreements between the lawyers and the powers to be in Boulder. As long as they did their part. Boulder was courteous. All part of the kid gloves handling no one else here gets except now the Midyette case.

[Eagle1]

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Tea, thanks for looking up the passage in St, when it's almost Christmas Eve and everyone's so busy. There seems to be more traffic than I've ever seen before.

I'm assuming Thomas and the other guy had seen the pictures in the manilla envelope or folder before, or they wouldn't have been so surprised to see this one fall out, and whoever told us about it must have been assuming the same thing. If you read a bit farther, doesn't he state that the dictionary had not been there when the crime scene was processed?

Naturally I'm not saying whoever may have planted it there was the killer, maybe just an impatient crooked cop wanting to close the case faster, or, who knows, "if, if, if" a lot of people were involved he could have been one, borrowing the "if, if, if" expression invented by Camper, and hoping she doesn't mind.

I understand your having the impression maybe the R's were the only ones guilty and that maybe they subconsciously wanted to get caught, but, no, sorry, I don't get the same impression. I just have this gut feeling quite a few people were invovled and that police knew about it, even in advance. Can't prove it, at least not yet, but there's just too many strange things about their "friends" and Boulder culture.

For instance, pagans held ceremonies out in the hills, we heard years ago, and JR and a couple of friends went for a short walk in that direction, where someone had him allegedly saying "I'm sorry' I'm so sorry."

We all always have some guilt feelings such as "Was there something I could have done?" as one of the stages of grief, and some keep beating themselves up over it the rest of their lives whenever they're missing them. If one of the guys was chiding him about the exposure they gave JonBenet, I'm sure it really really cut him to the quick and he wished he'd paid more attention to what Patsy was doing. Not sure it was very kind-hearted of the person to say so, but I'm avoiding judging anyone, to stay up here on the fence post.

[SuperDave]

Great comparison work between rn and patsy's exemplers. The letter "q" nails it for me, who else writes "q"s like that?

Nobody I know.

[icedtea4me]

For instance, pagans held ceremonies out in the hills, we heard years ago, and JR and a couple of friends went for a short walk in that direction, where someone had him allegedly saying "I'm sorry' I'm so sorry."And if there's anyone naturally prone to committing a murder, it would be a pagan, right?


-Tea

[coloradokares]

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

Tea, thanks for looking up the passage in St, when it's almost Christmas Eve and everyone's so busy. There seems to be more traffic than I've ever seen before.

I'm assuming Thomas and the other guy had seen the pictures in the manilla envelope or folder before, or they wouldn't have been so surprised to see this one fall out, and whoever told us about it must have been assuming the same thing. If you read a bit farther, doesn't he state that the dictionary had not been there when the crime scene was processed?

Naturally I'm not saying whoever may have planted it there was the killer, maybe just an impatient crooked cop wanting to close the case faster, or, who knows, "if, if, if" a lot of people were involved he could have been one, borrowing the "if, if, if" expression invented by Camper, and hoping she doesn't mind.

I understand your having the impression maybe the R's were the only ones guilty and that maybe they subconsciously wanted to get caught, but, no, sorry, I don't get the same impression. I just have this gut feeling quite a few people were invovled and that police knew about it, even in advance. Can't prove it, at least not yet, but there's just too many strange things about their "friends" and Boulder culture.

For instance, pagans held ceremonies out in the hills, we heard years ago, and JR and a couple of friends went for a short walk in that direction, where someone had him allegedly saying "I'm sorry' I'm so sorry."

We all always have some guilt feelings such as "Was there something I could have done?" as one of the stages of grief, and some keep beating themselves up over it the rest of their lives whenever they're missing them. If one of the guys was chiding him about the exposure they gave JonBenet, I'm sure it really really cut him to the quick and he wished he'd paid more attention to what Patsy was doing. Not sure it was very kind-hearted of the person to say so, but I'm avoiding judging anyone, to stay up here on the fence post.
Boulder Colorado is indeed a liberal bastion but to say we are weird in the way that contributes to a little girls death in such a manner is just not so nor is it the track record of Boulder. Their friends were very much normal uppercrust Top drawer. So don't blame the friends or Boulder. What you can point the finger to Boulder for is the questionable way the Ramseys were handled with kid gloves and the hesitancy of the prosecutorial branch to prosecute a crime not plea bargain it. If this had happened in Denver. Ramseys would have been separated interrogated at length down at headquarters within the hour of the body being found. Crime scene secured and charges filed most likely not long after. That is just the facts of it. Ramseys had a lot of decent caring friends. They did not do this to JonBenet. And this Pagan in the woods thing. I may lead a sheltered existence.....but I have yet to hear of it.

[Eagle1]

And if there's anyone naturally prone to committing a murder, it would be a pagan, right.....?-Tea

Oops, Tea, I certainly wasn't aiming at anyone! Just repeating speculation boards went through years ago. Had no thought of anything personal.

We do have Bog Man, Lindow Man and others found in bogs I'm just too shopped-out this Christmas Eve to specifically remember.

Not saying the ceremonies are still exactly the same. They probably change from time to time. Maybe better, maybe worse. Most of us just don't know anything about this except what can be found out by googling. I read that they used to thank a Christmas tree for sacrificing itself before cutting it down. As we do our military dead who got sacrificed but of course didn't mean to, and doesn't it sometimes seem that's a bit arrogant of us? But I digress.

McReynolds' Celtic harp with notches for his little "friends" who'd already passed on has run bells with some people, no getting around that. He may not have been the only one. I keep wondering exactly what all the "friends" had in common that drew them together.

Didn't say they killed JonBenet. We can't know. And we can't just take the family's word for it that they were the only ones in the house.

Many could have been somehow involved, including police, and the propagandists in other states, without actually being in the house. Maybe that's another reason they treated the R's with kid gloves; they knew.

They also let S. Stine turn them away from investigating that 911 call. The whole group of "friends" got the kid glove treatment, not just the family.

Why? That is the question. Sure sounds like they felt, "We're all in this together". somehow. Quite a mystery.

It's Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas, Everyone.

[RobertSand]

I've been reading through all of your theories with some interest. Would like to open my own theories to the forum for critque and discussion.

I read a copy of the ransom note on the Smoking Gun. My suggestion? The DA's office would do well to peruse the yearbooks circa 1996 for all area prep and high schools. To point in a general direction, the dictation of the letter is juvenile (at best!). It is typical work of something you would expect from a junior or senior grade student. I can't give conclusive fact, but I can attempt paint a premise to build on.

1. This is no ransom note! It is only a ransom note by definition because it demands a payment in lieu of an exchange. The truth... this is a formal letter. It open with a salutation, continues on into constructed paragraphs, and ends with a closing and title. Obviously, this point is not intended to be incriminating; we all write in this standard format that we learn in our high school classes. But, this "ransom note" comes just short of beginning with "Dear Mr. Ramsey," and closing with "Best Wishes,".
2. The length of the letter. This is an amatuer's mistake. It goes on for 3 pages, and is riddled with indecisiveness. It's moody. It begins formally; but by the end, it is screaming off of the page. It goes beyond itself to instill a fear; rather than, "get the money and wait for our call."
3. The letter begins with "Mr. Ramsey"; then transitions to "John". This is someone who is moving from a tone of respect toward trying to attain a level of peer(ism). Like the old joke, "Call me John. Mr. Smith is my father." Paperback-psychologically speaking, most young men fall into this transitionary period in their lives. They are just becoming comfortable with the notion of referring to a man on a first name basis.
4. Language. The overall tone of the letter is youthful. It is riddled with pop cliches, and reeks from the influence of English Lit studies - "hence", "adequate", "gentlemen", "faction", "fat cats"... This is pompous language.
5. "Foreign Faction" - Sounds like high society, affluent neighborhood (ie. Boulder) language for a gang. And, if there was a foreign faction involved, why would they go so far as to differentiate between Northerners and "southern"'-ers? Wouldn't a more generic term like "Americans" be more appropriate?
6. Scribbles. Not much to mention here, but shouldn't a ransom demand be short and to the point? Most confessions and junior grade papers are marred by scribbles.
7. "Victory" - The hokiest part of the letter. This is a slogan of rebellious youth.
8. "SBTC" - If this is a gang, or "faction", they probably would identify themselves (possibly by geography). So "B" could stand for Boulder, as in South Boulder Terror Crew or Sons of Boulder Terrorizing Colorado.

I guess my suspicions lean towards juveniles because of the incidents that happened in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region in the late 90's - Columbine, the gay man beaten to death... Acts performed by disjointed youth.

I would suspect a young boy who may have had an acquaintance to the Ramseys through a parent. He may have been in the Ramseys house as a guest. This would explain how he/they were able to pinpoint the exact location of Jonbenet's room. Also, a dexterous slim body could easily slide through a basement window. This person may have had access to Xmas pictures of Jonbenet undoubtedly sent by Patsy, and may have had a card or correspondence on which to bas ehis forgeries.

[RobertSand]

Karr may have been cleared but some of his responses were disturbing (considering his background). The Internet was on the rise in 96, and picture trading was extremely popular. If I remain with my theory of older teens, it's not far off to see a possible... maybe probable... conection being made between Karr and our Boulder students. With a voracious perversion such as Karr's, it's possible to imagine his lust had grown into recruitment, and the Internet was the perfect tool for his device. Especially when it delivers twisted youths who can share pictures of an adolescent beauty queen there family may have received. What pulls at me is Karr's statement that he shared "spiritual connections" with the girls, and "how he was "there when Jonbenet died." Maybe the connection was not physical presence, but a connection to the murder through his relationship (and possibly instigation) of the act. For all accounts, her murder was an accident, as he stated. It's possible he had requested lewd photographs of Jonbenet to be delivered to him. Wouldn't this fit with a pedophile whose perversion is developing into more mastery of his own lusts? It may have been that in their act, the two teens killed Jonbenet, and that is why KArr stated it was an accident. And, without a physical presence, what DNA examinations would he have to fear? All speculative theory, of course.

Again, I would look to a teen (in 96) who had an acquaintance relationship with the Ramseys. It comes without doubt that Patsy Ramsey wrote the household's correspondences (as she was sure to share pictures of her Jonbenet with family and friends). This could be a basis for a mock and amateurish forgery. I would look for someone into photography (possibly on the school newspaper), possibly in Scouts (the resourcefulness of the brush and knot), and given to faking notes for missed attendances. Someone who may have rented movies such as Ransom, Speed, Dirty Harry and Copycat from the local movie rental store. And, someone given to long hours on the Internet in 96. Possibly with an exhorbant telephone bill since dial-up was the mode of connection then. Someone with an AOL account who may have been kicked off for the transfer of lewd files. Maybe someone who had "SBTC" in their AOL account name.

[LionRun]

There has been so much written about the JBR case. Has the actual ransom note ever been on the net in full? What about a complete letter written by Patsy side by side? If so, does anyone have a link?

[coloradokares]

Oops, Tea, I certainly wasn't aiming at anyone! Just repeating speculation boards went through years ago. Had no thought of anything personal.

We do have Bog Man, Lindow Man and others found in bogs I'm just too shopped-out this Christmas Eve to specifically remember.

Not saying the ceremonies are still exactly the same. They probably change from time to time. Maybe better, maybe worse. Most of us just don't know anything about this except what can be found out by googling. I read that they used to thank a Christmas tree for sacrificing itself before cutting it down. As we do our military dead who got sacrificed but of course didn't mean to, and doesn't it sometimes seem that's a bit arrogant of us? But I digress.

McReynolds' Celtic harp with notches for his little "friends" who'd already passed on has run bells with some people, no getting around that. He may not have been the only one. I keep wondering exactly what all the "friends" had in common that drew them together.

Didn't say they killed JonBenet. We can't know. And we can't just take the family's word for it that they were the only ones in the house.

Many could have been somehow involved, including police, and the propagandists in other states, without actually being in the house. Maybe that's another reason they treated the R's with kid gloves; they knew.

They also let S. Stine turn them away from investigating that 911 call. The whole group of "friends" got the kid glove treatment, not just the family.

Why? That is the question. Sure sounds like they felt, "We're all in this together". somehow. Quite a mystery.

It's Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas, Everyone.
I have to respectfully disagree. NONE of the friends could have been involved. If you play Santa enough years you'll meet children that inevitably pass. Some were from cancer. That is hard to hold Mc Reynolds suspect for. Stines. Well now if there was a direction to look. They are the only ones who stuck by the Ramseys through it all. Even moved to Atlanta and MI with them. Susan Stine showed her colors when she played the email game and got caught at that. The Friends hardly got kid glove treatment. They got investigated as throughly if not more so than anyone. We do not agree I respect your view point but feel I must say to present it as the friends and the Ramseys were all in it together somehow is just not how it was. The Ramseys pointed the finger and flug mud hoping anything would stick. That cost them alot of friendships. However your entitled to your thoughts on it all.

[JMO8778]

Karr may have been cleared but some of his responses were disturbing (considering his background). The Internet was on the rise in 96, and picture trading was extremely popular. If I remain with my theory of older teens, it's not far off to see a possible... maybe probable... conection being made between Karr and our Boulder students. With a voracious perversion such as Karr's, it's possible to imagine his lust had grown into recruitment, and the Internet was the perfect tool for his device. Especially when it delivers twisted youths who can share pictures of an adolescent beauty queen there family may have received. What pulls at me is Karr's statement that he shared "spiritual connections" with the girls, and "how he was "there when Jonbenet died." Maybe the connection was not physical presence, but a connection to the murder through his relationship (and possibly instigation) of the act. For all accounts, her murder was an accident, as he stated. It's possible he had requested lewd photographs of Jonbenet to be delivered to him. Wouldn't this fit with a pedophile whose perversion is developing into more mastery of his own lusts? It may have been that in their act, the two teens killed Jonbenet, and that is why KArr stated it was an accident. And, without a physical presence, what DNA examinations would he have to fear? All speculative theory, of course.

Again, I would look to a teen (in 96) who had an acquaintance relationship with the Ramseys. It comes without doubt that Patsy Ramsey wrote the household's correspondences (as she was sure to share pictures of her Jonbenet with family and friends). This could be a basis for a mock and amateurish forgery. I would look for someone into photography (possibly on the school newspaper), possibly in Scouts (the resourcefulness of the brush and knot), and given to faking notes for missed attendances. Someone who may have rented movies such as Ransom, Speed, Dirty Harry and Copycat from the local movie rental store. And, someone given to long hours on the Internet in 96. Possibly with an exhorbant telephone bill since dial-up was the mode of connection then. Someone with an AOL account who may have been kicked off for the transfer of lewd files. Maybe someone who had "SBTC" in their AOL account name. Replying to this post and the previous one..have you read any books on the case? I would really recommend reading 'JonBenet' by Steve Thomas,first.He was a leading investigator on the case.An explanation for SBTC is in there...one that I think is likely to be right.
As for the so-called ransom note..again,look to this book...it fits Patsy's personality perfectly...it's a "Hollywood-ized ransom note".It's over the top...just like she was.I suspect hubby John dictated parts of it to her as well.."listen carefully...." sounds like a dictation...'read this carefully' does not.But the author didnt write that.
Also listen to Jeff Merrick's interview..I wish I had the link.Anyone know where that is? He talks about the fact he thinks JR wrote parts of it to incriminate him.That sounds likely.
Please look at all the evidence first,before concluding that it wasn't the Ramseys..I beleive it was one or both parents.There is nothing to indicate an intruder.The R's behavior has guilt written all over it.
As for the note,I think Patsy wrote it with her left hand to disguise her handwriting.24 out of 26 letters matched.Someone has the link here, but they pointed out that esp. her q's are a big giveaway on that.

[icedtea4me]

I've been reading through all of your theories with some interest. Would like to open my own theories to the forum for critque and discussion.

I read a copy of the ransom note on the Smoking Gun. My suggestion? The DA's office would do well to peruse the yearbooks circa 1996 for all area prep and high schools. To point in a general direction, the dictation of the letter is juvenile (at best!). It is typical work of something you would expect from a junior or senior grade student. I can't give conclusive fact, but I can attempt paint a premise to build on.

1. This is no ransom note! It is only a ransom note by definition because it demands a payment in lieu of an exchange. The truth... this is a formal letter. It open with a salutation, continues on into constructed paragraphs, and ends with a closing and title. Obviously, this point is not intended to be incriminating; we all write in this standard format that we learn in our high school classes. But, this "ransom note" comes just short of beginning with "Dear Mr. Ramsey," and closing with "Best Wishes,".
2. The length of the letter. This is an amatuer's mistake. It goes on for 3 pages, and is riddled with indecisiveness. It's moody. It begins formally; but by the end, it is screaming off of the page. It goes beyond itself to instill a fear; rather than, "get the money and wait for our call."
3. The letter begins with "Mr. Ramsey"; then transitions to "John". This is someone who is moving from a tone of respect toward trying to attain a level of peer(ism). Like the old joke, "Call me John. Mr. Smith is my father." Paperback-psychologically speaking, most young men fall into this transitionary period in their lives. They are just becoming comfortable with the notion of referring to a man on a first name basis.
4. Language. The overall tone of the letter is youthful. It is riddled with pop cliches, and reeks from the influence of English Lit studies - "hence", "adequate", "gentlemen", "faction", "fat cats"... This is pompous language.
5. "Foreign Faction" - Sounds like high society, affluent neighborhood (ie. Boulder) language for a gang. And, if there was a foreign faction involved, why would they go so far as to differentiate between Northerners and "southern"'-ers? Wouldn't a more generic term like "Americans" be more appropriate?
6. Scribbles. Not much to mention here, but shouldn't a ransom demand be short and to the point? Most confessions and junior grade papers are marred by scribbles.
7. "Victory" - The hokiest part of the letter. This is a slogan of rebellious youth.
8. "SBTC" - If this is a gang, or "faction", they probably would identify themselves (possibly by geography). So "B" could stand for Boulder, as in South Boulder Terror Crew or Sons of Boulder Terrorizing Colorado.

I guess my suspicions lean towards juveniles because of the incidents that happened in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region in the late 90's - Columbine, the gay man beaten to death... Acts performed by disjointed youth.

I would suspect a young boy who may have had an acquaintance to the Ramseys through a parent. He may have been in the Ramseys house as a guest. This would explain how he/they were able to pinpoint the exact location of Jonbenet's room. Also, a dexterous slim body could easily slide through a basement window. This person may have had access to Xmas pictures of Jonbenet undoubtedly sent by Patsy, and may have had a card or correspondence on which to bas ehis forgeries.It is doubtful a teenager would use periods in any abbreviations (eg F.B.I. vs FBI) and, unless they had classes in journalism, it is also unlikely they would have used a "v" to insert a missing word. The "v" and the "not" weren't added until after the entire sentence had been written, imo. I feel these two things were added after the "r" had been added to "you" to change it to "your".


-Tea

[LionRun]

I just read the actual ransom note for the first time. It did strike me that the writer corrected errors (i.e. "V"). I am not sure what to make of it. It did seem that the way the letter was corrected was reminiscent of high school English class.

Additionally, the fact that he/she had the NEED to correct errors, yet didn't seem to care that the note was SLOPPILY written might show things about the personality traits of the writer. It seems the writer re-read his note and made corrections.

The note was addressed formally, and then on the last page he uses, "John" three times. I notice also that he didn't call anyone else by name.

I would be interested to see other examples of known ransom notes. I don't know ow that would do any good. But, I would like to compare them anyway.

[julianne]

It is doubtful a teenager would use periods in any abbreviations (eg F.B.I. vs FBI) and, unless they had classes in journalism, it is also unlikely they would have used a "v" to insert a missing word. The "v" and the "not" weren't added until after the entire sentence had been written, imo. I feel these two things were added after the "r" had been added to "you" to change it to "your".


-TeaA teenager would certainly use periods to indicate an abbreviated word. Using a period to indicate an abbreviation is very, very basic. This is taught very early on in the elementary years. If anything, using periods to indicate an abbreviation may not be done so much now these days, simply because of teens being on the internet and texting so much, i.e., LOL, LMAO, ROTFL, etc. Back in 1996, however, internet usage was still in the early stages & the acronyms weren't in use, and teens weren't text messaging back then.

My fifth grader learned to use a period to indicate an abbreviation a couple of grades ago. My high schooler, who is an average student, uses periods to indicate abbreviations on any papers. It's basic.

[julianne]

I've been reading through all of your theories with some interest. Would like to open my own theories to the forum for critque and discussion.

I read a copy of the ransom note on the Smoking Gun. My suggestion? The DA's office would do well to peruse the yearbooks circa 1996 for all area prep and high schools. To point in a general direction, the dictation of the letter is juvenile (at best!). It is typical work of something you would expect from a junior or senior grade student. I can't give conclusive fact, but I can attempt paint a premise to build on.

1. This is no ransom note! It is only a ransom note by definition because it demands a payment in lieu of an exchange. The truth... this is a formal letter. It open with a salutation, continues on into constructed paragraphs, and ends with a closing and title. Obviously, this point is not intended to be incriminating; we all write in this standard format that we learn in our high school classes. But, this "ransom note" comes just short of beginning with "Dear Mr. Ramsey," and closing with "Best Wishes,".
2. The length of the letter. This is an amatuer's mistake. It goes on for 3 pages, and is riddled with indecisiveness. It's moody. It begins formally; but by the end, it is screaming off of the page. It goes beyond itself to instill a fear; rather than, "get the money and wait for our call."
3. The letter begins with "Mr. Ramsey"; then transitions to "John". This is someone who is moving from a tone of respect toward trying to attain a level of peer(ism). Like the old joke, "Call me John. Mr. Smith is my father." Paperback-psychologically speaking, most young men fall into this transitionary period in their lives. They are just becoming comfortable with the notion of referring to a man on a first name basis.
4. Language. The overall tone of the letter is youthful. It is riddled with pop cliches, and reeks from the influence of English Lit studies - "hence", "adequate", "gentlemen", "faction", "fat cats"... This is pompous language.
5. "Foreign Faction" - Sounds like high society, affluent neighborhood (ie. Boulder) language for a gang. And, if there was a foreign faction involved, why would they go so far as to differentiate between Northerners and "southern"'-ers? Wouldn't a more generic term like "Americans" be more appropriate?
6. Scribbles. Not much to mention here, but shouldn't a ransom demand be short and to the point? Most confessions and junior grade papers are marred by scribbles.
7. "Victory" - The hokiest part of the letter. This is a slogan of rebellious youth.
8. "SBTC" - If this is a gang, or "faction", they probably would identify themselves (possibly by geography). So "B" could stand for Boulder, as in South Boulder Terror Crew or Sons of Boulder Terrorizing Colorado.

I guess my suspicions lean towards juveniles because of the incidents that happened in Colorado and the Rocky Mountain region in the late 90's - Columbine, the gay man beaten to death... Acts performed by disjointed youth.

I would suspect a young boy who may have had an acquaintance to the Ramseys through a parent. He may have been in the Ramseys house as a guest. This would explain how he/they were able to pinpoint the exact location of Jonbenet's room. Also, a dexterous slim body could easily slide through a basement window. This person may have had access to Xmas pictures of Jonbenet undoubtedly sent by Patsy, and may have had a card or correspondence on which to bas ehis forgeries.
RobertSand,

I have to say that was a very well-thought out post, and very interesting! You certainly have made sense of many issues with the ransom note with your theory. You bring a unique perspective to the case with your theory, and I think this case is in such dire need of fresh, untainted opinions. There are many people who will steadfastly maintain that the Ramseys did it (RDI) that often they are unwilling to entertain any thoughts that contradict that----not just necessarily here on WS, but everywhere this case is discussed.

Just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed reading your theory, and that many aspects of your post make sense and hold merit. I won't assume that you haven't done any reading up on the case, but if you're just now gathering your information, remember that posts on an forum are not necessarily indicative of fact, even when a link is provided. I know it should go without saying, but there have been times I have asked (not necessarily here) for info to be backed up with a link, and I get linked to a post on another forum!! No joke! Welcome to WS, and keep your mind open....

[icedtea4me]

In 1996, was "we do not (inserted) particularly like you" teenage slang for "We hate your ****in ass, you mother ****er"? (I fully expect this will be cleaned up by any profanity censors.)

And why would an intruder write "...I advise you to be rested" when they knew they were going to be carrying out their deed after everyone was asleep? Wouldn't John and Patsy have already been rested by the following morning when the note was found?


-Tea

[JMO8778]

And why would an intruder write "...I advise you to be rested" when they knew they were going to be carrying out their deed after everyone was asleep? Wouldn't John and Patsy have already been rested by the following morning when the note was found?


-TeaI think the note refers to the following day,the 27th,as that makes more sense.Then they would have time to get the money and thus an 'earlier' pickup of their daughter if they did.They also wouldn't need to be rested,as they'd just gotten up.
I suspect the R's thought about not calling police right away,thus the threats of not talking to anyone, and the need to be rested..ie...dont go anywhere that day.They needed some excuses and time to carry out their plans.I suspect their original intent was to have an excuse to tell the big kids they couldnt make the trip that day,and then try to figure out what to do next.

[Eagle1]

RobertSand,

I have to say that was a very well-thought out post, and very interesting! You certainly have made sense of many issues with the ransom note with your theory. You bring a unique perspective to the case with your theory, and I think this case is in such dire need of fresh, untainted opinions. There are many people who will steadfastly maintain that the Ramseys did it (RDI) that often they are unwilling to entertain any thoughts that contradict that----not just necessarily here on WS, but everywhere this case is discussed. .....

Welcome to WS, and keep your mind open....

Same here. Thank you for numbering your fresh thoughts. RpbertSamd.

I'd like to add just a little to what Julianne says about forum habits. (1) Our RDI's (I call myself an FS, and there are IDI's, I'm sure you've noticed.) insist the R's were slinging mud when they were ASKED BY POLICE who they would suspect. Depending on what weird activities the "friends" may have been habitually involved in, probably any of us IN THEIR SHOES would suspect them all. "Birds of a feather flock together", and Stine was just one of them. (2) Even if McReynolds regularly played Santa in pediatric wards, which we have no clue, source, that he ever did, that would NOT explain his keeping a Celtic harp with notches on it for a lot of dead kids. We know about Bog Man, Landau Man, and other Celtic sacrifices, just don't know if child sexual abuse would be in that same category, if others besides him were also in that cult and/or others.

Back when we used to google satanists, pedophile rings, pagans, etc., I remember there were sometimes statements that higher ups in PD's were somtimes involved, or that the problem was just too big to handle. Pictures of SOME of the friends at the party on the 23rd looked pretty normal, but the BPD must have known SOMETHING, or I think they would have gotten a warrant instead of accepting whatever S. Stine said and did. That was VERY odd. And Stine was just one of the birds flocking together.

There are allegedly so many cults in Boulder that church people probably could have dual memberships, could belong to strange cults too. What do you think?

Tea makes a good point too, I'm sure you'll agree. What are your thoughts about that term "well-rested"?

[RobertSand]

I'm only familiar to the case by media reporting and the Smoking Gun's posting of the "ransom note". I have tried to steer clear of the exclusive details because many times they lead down empty paths or are unubstanstantiated claims. I have chosen to stick to the accepted facts of JBR's murder and build my profile based on these facts. Although I have alluded to a possible connection between Karr and our murderer(s), I find proving conspiracies as the ultimate deathblow to an investigation. 'Conspiracies' should only come secondary to solving the riddle of the murder since they are more difficult to prove/solve than the murder itself. (As in, prove aliens landed in Roswell before you make accusations of a government cover-up.)

Profiling is a taboo word in the mouths of a police department, but it is exactly what I am attempting to do based on the ransom note. To offer a scripted sketch based on the language of the note & attempting to answer the questions we all must have after reading it. That, and to open up probabilities to this entertaining forum that may shoot holes into my own theories. To ask questions that may help me find answers because I think a collective organization of well-interested people (such as yourselves) may be the Sherlock Holmes of the 21st Century.

I tend to believe the author of the note was a teenager and a male. (That's separate from saying the murderer; one step at a time). To briefly recap my ideas:

1. "Victory" is a term of rebelliousness.
2. Movie cliches. I apologize for not being able to provide the sight, but there is one out there that tied much of the language of the note to Ransom, Dirty Harry and Speed ("Don't go trying to grow a brain.")
3. The transition from "Mr. Ramsey" to "John".
4. The length and moodiness of the letter. They/He shifts from control in their temper (possibly control based on having movie cliches to rely on) to outraged anger (count the number of exclamation points.) This loss of control and tantrum-throwing is evident in most upper teenaged boys.
5. Reference to him/themselves as a "faction" and assigning a riddling acronym to him/them self.

Now to add a few more points:

6. The fact that a rough draft was offered as the completed letter/product. It is marred with mistakes and compensation by the author. The insertions of words using a carat, the scribbles,... Like a term paper being written at the last minute hoping for a "C+" at best.
7. Punctuation. In total, the author uses exclamation points, a carat, an acronym and decimal place values in the letter. I know there is no standard given in school in the formalities of writing a ransom note, but the indeciveness of the author is shown when he/they switch from the use of decimal and place values to not using them.

Now here is a question I pose to the forum becaus eit spins around in my head:

WAS THE RANSOM NOTE PLACED (BEFORE/AFTER/AT THE SAME TIME) AS THE OCCURENCE OF THE MURDER?

******
ABout the murder...

According to THS' account of the Ramsey murder, Jonbenet received a blow to the head after suffering strangulation. If this is true:

It's very possible her murder was an accident or performed by an individual(s) who had nevere murdered before. Not all modes of murder are set in stone; but I would imagine that if asphyxiation was the perversion of the murderer, then there would have not been any follow-up blow to the head. I know this is based on personal experience (which I will share momentarily), so this thoery is constructed on wet paper (it rips easily).

My personal experience: I work doing pest control. I am new to it by six months. Roughly four months in, I am checking the traps we have set out on our premises. I smell an odor at the bottom the hill, and as I approach I am horrified by the shape of blak and white fur clumped by one of our traps. I hesitate to approach; I toss a rock at it to maintain my distance yet tell me of the mortality of the creature. My answer: the skunk is still alive. Its' neck has been snapped over by the metal trap but the force was not enough to kill the animal. It has sprayed itself for some time; it is clutching weakly at the metal bars. It has been here in this struggle for some time. I can't release it; I haven't tamed my fear enough to put my hands anywhere near its head to release the spring mechanism. I rationalize rabies from a bite, but it's just more that I am ill from knowing what I have to do. I find a 2x4 and end the creature's presumed misery.

It was cruel and rationalized on my part; at the time, it was the only solution apparent to me. It's a dramatic retelling of a personal experience, true; but after working behind a desk for 10+ years, I hadn't developed the intestinal fortitude for the disposal of small furry rodents. Whic leads me into the murder of JBR. If death by stragulation was her intended death, I doubt the possibilities of a follow-up blow. Historically, a blow to the head in spite of the deed is viewed on as merciful. Like the Japanese samurais who would behead another in the act of suicide. It is seen as a way of ending the pain and suffering of another. In this case, the blow to JBR's head may have been performed to end her suffering... suffering that came during an "accidenal" (as Karr reminiscd in his statement) strangulation or seizure taking the child.

This is a murderer who was premature... who lacked the patience to get JBR out of the house to perform any intended act. A murderer who compounded their heinous crime with the unwise and irrational decision of murder as a final solution. A murderer who feared JBR would be able to identify him/them if she recovered; thus leading to the decision to murder.

The ransom note is all fun and games. That's why I think it was written a day or 2 before the crime. It only intends to kidnap JBR. It attempts power and elevating one's self to the level of a millionaire like John Ramsey. *** Let's not forget his social status in all of this. It has gotten lost by the distance of television and the Internet. This is a very rich man who married a beauty queen. If he was your boss (regardless of your age), you would be nervous with sweaty palms if he engaged you in a conversation(prior to JBR's murder) AND you most definitely wouldn't call him "John". *** The note refers to JR on a note of familiarity, but it transitions (from "Mr. Ramsey" to "John"). In no way does this fun-and-games note come close to matching the seriousness nor disjointed rationality behind JBR's murder.

That is why I ask when was the ransom note placed, before or after? Because if it was placed before the occurence of the mrder, then this is someone who lost control of their well-laid plan. This is someone who went to the moody extreme of resolving a sickeningly real situation by their own desperate means. All fitting the profile of a disgruntled, out-of-touch, uncaring teenage boy on the verge of his 20's.

[RobertSand]

Tea

Thanks for the response.

Re: Acronyms with Periods

Remember, we're just coming out of the early 90's with this crime. Look at the timeframe and popculture. I hate to put it so bluntly at you because I like reading your posts but let me give you some pop culture examples around that time:

N.W.A.
The D.O.C.

Sorry, I just went blank on a lot of ther gangster rap group's monkers, but I think you get the idea.

[haypaula]

i believe John Mark Karr is connected, to some degree, with JonBenet's murder. His handwriting, albeit 20 years ago, is very similar to that of the person who penned the ransom note. I also cannot dismiss the coincidence re the signing of the note with the letters SBTC, and the fact that JMK signed a schoolmate's yearbook claiming "I Shall Be The Conqueror". Even if JMK wasn't physically present to witness JonBenet's murder, the murderer/s might have videotaped it, and JMK somehow got a copy of it - Hence his statement "I was with JonBenet when she died".

I've also come to believe that Michael Helgoth was involved in JonBenet's murder and was murdered himself, by his accomplice, to ensure Helgoth would never talk about it.

I don't believe the Ramsey's had anything to do with JonBenet's murder. Thomas' ridiculous claim that Patsy killed her daughter because she wet the bed defies logic, and the evidence and COD do not support his theory.

IMO

[icedtea4me]

I think the note refers to the following day,the 27th,as that makes more sense.Then they would have time to get the money and thus an 'earlier' pickup of their daughter if they did.They also wouldn't need to be rested,as they'd just gotten up.Are you basing the 27th on the "We will call you tomorrow" line? In the IDI theory, it is said that the note was written while the Ramseys were out. Therefore, tomorrow would be the 26th. But whether or not it was written before or after 11:59 p.m. on Christmas, what murdering pedophile foreign faction kidnapper is going to care whether or not John Ramsey is rested, let alone about a proper burial?


-Tea

[JMO8778]

Are you basing the 27th on the "We will call you tomorrow" line? yes,as well as the time needed to get the money,as the line says if they get it earlier,they may get their daughter back sooner.Since most banks don't open until 9am,and the note says they will call between 8-10am,that only leaves an hour after the bank opens to get the money on the 26th.

In the IDI theory, it is said that the note was written while the Ramseys were out. Therefore, tomorrow would be the 26th. But whether or not it was written before or after 11:59 p.m. on Christmas, what murdering pedophile foreign faction kidnapper is going to care whether or not John Ramsey is rested, let alone about a proper burial? Right on,I think it must refer to the 27th,as they would already be rested from just getting up.So it seems the note points to that day and IMO,the being rested part and not contacting anyone was the R's previous idea of putting off calling police,but letting their grown kids know they wouldn't be going to Charlevoix.Being rested meaning,don't leave the house(in case no one saw them leave the house that day and wondered why..)Whatever excuse they were going to give the big kids for that,I don't know,but the note points to them not saying anything about JB just yet.So they may have been going to say to them.."Look,I can't explain right now,but the trip is off.I'll let you know why later.Just take my word for it for now".I think they wrote the note with the original intent of buying themselves some time(and to cancel the trip),in order to decide what to do next.But just like the speculation of prior staging..they changed their minds and called police right then instead.(I wonder if JR called his lawyer asking for advice on what to do b/f calling police? Simply saying there was a ransom note found for JB,and she was missing when they got up.The phone records disappeared for a reason...)
Either that,or, in the end,it was harder than they thought it was going to be to emotionally cope with knowing their dead daughter was in the house.I think they thought police would find her right away...but when they didn't,JR felt he had to do it himself in the end.
JMO.

[coloradokares]

Replying to this post and the previous one..have you read any books on the case? I would really recommend reading 'JonBenet' by Steve Thomas,first.He was a leading investigator on the case.An explanation for SBTC is in there...one that I think is likely to be right.
As for the so-called ransom note..again,look to this book...it fits Patsy's personality perfectly...it's a "Hollywood-ized ransom note".It's over the top...just like she was.I suspect hubby John dictated parts of it to her as well.."listen carefully...." sounds like a dictation...'read this carefully' does not.But the author didnt write that.
Also listen to Jeff Merrick's interview..I wish I had the link.Anyone know where that is? He talks about the fact he thinks JR wrote parts of it to incriminate him.That sounds likely.
Please look at all the evidence first,before concluding that it wasn't the Ramseys..I beleive it was one or both parents.There is nothing to indicate an intruder.The R's behavior has guilt written all over it.
As for the note,I think Patsy wrote it with her left hand to disguise her handwriting.24 out of 26 letters matched.Someone has the link here, but they pointed out that esp. her q's are a big giveaway on that.
here is the Merrick interview

http://dimwit.byethost5.com/jeff%20merr

[icedtea4me]

I don't believe the Ramsey's had anything to do with JonBenet's murder. Thomas' ridiculous claim that Patsy killed her daughter because she wet the bed defies logic, and the evidence and COD do not support his theory.In the summer of '98, Dr. Hodges released his book about how JonBenet's death was the result of Patsy's hidden stress of her cancer returning and coming across sexual abuse. The months and years passed. Not a peep from the Ramseys regarding this theory. Steve Thomas releases his book on April 11, 2000 with his theory about how Patsy killed JonBenet because she wet the bed. A mere fifty days later on Larry King Live, John Ramsey tells Steve Thomas "We're going to sue you". If the Ramseys had nothing to do with JonBenet's death, then why didn't they also go after Hodges?


-Tea

[SuperDave]

There has been so much written about the JBR case. Has the actual ransom note ever been on the net in full? What about a complete letter written by Patsy side by side? If so, does anyone have a link?

Anybody got that PDF side-by-side handy?

Profiling is a taboo word in the mouths of a police department, but it is exactly what I am attempting to do based on the ransom note.

FBI beat you to it: a 40-year-old Southern woman

According to THS' account of the Ramsey murder, Jonbenet received a blow to the head after suffering strangulation.

Fraid not. Head blow ten to 60 minutes before being strangled.

Thomas' ridiculous claim that Patsy killed her daughter because she wet the bed defies logic, and the evidence and COD do not support his theory.

Would you like to see a numbered, cross-referenced list?

In the summer of '98, Dr. Hodges released his book about how JonBenet's death was the result of Patsy's hidden stress of her cancer returning and coming across sexual abuse. The months and years passed. Not a peep from the Ramseys regarding this theory. Steve Thomas releases his book on April 11, 2000 with his theory about how Patsy killed JonBenet because she wet the bed. A mere fifty days later on Larry King Live, John Ramsey tells Steve Thomas "We're going to sue you". If the Ramseys had nothing to do with JonBenet's death, then why didn't they also go after Hodges?

Terrific question.

[Eagle1]

I believe John Mark Karr is connected, to some degree, with JonBenet's murder.

His handwriting, albeit 20 years ago, is very similar to that of the person who penned the ransom note. I also cannot dismiss the coincidence re the signing of the note with the letters SBTC, and the fact that JMK signed a schoolmate's yearbook claiming "I Shall Be The Conqueror". Even if JMK wasn't physically present to witness JonBenet's murder, the murderer/s might have videotaped it, and JMK somehow got a copy of it - Hence his statement "I was with JonBenet when she died".

Haypaula makes several good points about Karr and I'd like to add a couple.

(1) His handwriting from a 20 yr old h.s. yearbook,
(2) SBTC could mean something like "Shall Be The Conqueror".
(3) May have had pics, video, or something, felt he was there.
(4) Someone suicided Helgoth who may have been "the" killer, or one of...
(5) The "shabby" Santa bear found in JBR's room after the murder was not the one given to her at a pageant. The pageant one was white. The shabby one resembled a pic of Karr's own childhood Santabear. So he really may have been one of those present when she was killed.

I think all 5 of these points warrant consideration and remembering, although the DNA didn't match. That simply means he had to be with someone else.

I don't know if Helgoth's death means he was also there. Maybe. I don't suppose Karr has an alibi for that date. Wasn't it about Feb. 14, 1997? As usual, this is not my fave theory. I'm open to all of them and don't have a favorite that I'd try to prove.

[JMO8778]

IMO,I don't think SBTC stands for 'shall be the conquerer' ...in that case why wouldnt he have signed it ISBTC? That makes more sense.But just 'shall be the conquerer?' I think it's just a coincidence.

[Eagle1]

IMO,I don't think SBTC stands for 'shall be the conquerer' ...in that case why wouldnt he have signed it ISBTC? That makes more sense.But just 'shall be the conquerer?' I think it's just a coincidence.

Maybe so. I just listed it because after all it was mentioned.

In fact, maybe he knew acronyms are usually four letters. And maybe not.

[coloradokares]

Haypaula makes several good points about Karr and I'd like to add a couple.

(1) His handwriting from a 20 yr old h.s. yearbook,
(2) SBTC could mean something like "Shall Be The Conqueror".
(3) May have had pics, video, or something, felt he was there.
(4) Someone suicided Helgoth who may have been "the" killer, or one of...
(5) The "shabby" Santa bear found in JBR's room after the murder was not the one given to her at a pageant. The pageant one was white. The shabby one resembled a pic of Karr's own childhood Santabear. So he really may have been one of those present when she was killed.

I think all 5 of these points warrant consideration and remembering, although the DNA didn't match. That simply means he had to be with someone else.

I don't know if Helgoth's death means he was also there. Maybe. I don't suppose Karr has an alibi for that date. Wasn't it about Feb. 14, 1997? As usual, this is not my fave theory. I'm open to all of them and don't have a favorite that I'd try to prove.
I have heard that Helgoths death was not a suicide that it'd been pretty impossible to shoot himself where he did with the hand he did etc. So....maybe just a thought was Helgoth a Scapegoat that didn't work to clear the Ramseys?

[scandi]

IMO,I don't think SBTC stands for 'shall be the conquerer' ...in that case why wouldnt he have signed it ISBTC? That makes more sense.But just 'shall be the conquerer?' I think it's just a coincidence.

On Fox just now they were discussing the case, and both TH's agreed there are many valuable clues in that ransom note and also new technology to analyze it.

One thing pointed out was whoever wrote that note knew alot about John Ramsey, as to the bonus dollar amount and that SBTC are the initials of a base where John Ramsey was stationed.

I think Haypaula has some good thoughts, and the last I heard is that Karr is still a POI in some capacity in JB's case. Knows who really killered her, etc. But I also have felt that Christmas Santa Bear that HP refers to is the one in the photo with Karr and think it is likely he could have been there when she died.

I wonder if they ever analyzed this bear forensicly? I know it was asked to be delivered from the evidence file for study at the end of the Karr fiasco. Just never heard if it was done. If not, it could be one big reason why Karr is not off the hook yet and why the DA now wants a new investigator on the case!

Scandi

[coloradokares]

On Fox just now they were discussing the case, and both TH's agreed there are many valuable clues in that ransom note and also new technology to analyze it.

One thing pointed out was whoever wrote that note knew alot about John Ramsey, as to the bonus dollar amount and that SBTC are the initials of a base where John Ramsey was stationed.

I think Haypaula has some good thoughts, and the last I heard is that Karr is still a POI in some capacity in JB's case. Knows who really killered her, etc. But I also have felt that Christmas Santa Bear that HP refers to is the one in the photo with Karr and think it is likely he could have been there when she died.

I wonder if they ever analyzed this bear forensicly? I know it was asked to be delivered from the evidence file for study at the end of the Karr fiasco. Just never heard if it was done. If not, it could be one big reason why Karr is not off the hook yet and why the DA now wants a new investigator on the case!

Scandi
I think personally Karr is as bogus as bogus gets. Thats my opinion. But I expect the Ramsey team will try to get as much milage out of this as they can for as long as they can. I mean think about it. He confesses but they let him go. His interest in the JonBenet case was fame....he never gave any details that were not common knowledge.

[scandi]

. . . except for the Santa Clause Bear!

I was surprised they let him go and then continue to consider him as a POI. It has to be due to someone else he knew at the time of her death. She was in that beauty contest in Atlanta a month or two before she was killed, and he could easily seen her photo at that time. Several coincidences, but they might just be that.

I still want to know more about that bear! Scandi

[Eagle1]

. . . except for the Santa Clause Bear!

I was surprised they let him go and then continue to consider him as a POI. It has to be due to someone else he knew at the time of her death. She was in that beauty contest in Atlanta a month or two before she was killed, and he could easily seen her photo at that time. Several coincidences, but they might just be that.

I still want to know more about that bear! Scandi

You're the first one who's conveyed to me that she was in an ATLANTA pageant. As a pedophile, he surely was there! I'm sure I'd heard where it was held before but just hadn't connected it with Karr. We agree with all the others that he's a nut, right? But still he could have been there and very well may know who really killed her. But they'd kill him, like Helgoth, if he told. May even do it "just in case" he decides to talk to get more attention.

That makes me even more certain that probably he brought his childhood bear to the Ramsey house that night to give to her, probably thinking she would be in love with him, they were soulmates, and like that.

In case anyone forgot, the bear given to her at a pageant was white.

[scandi]

Hi Eagle,

She was in the Little Miss Sunburst Pageant in October 1995 that was held in the outskirts of Atlanta Ga.

We discussed this quite a bit on one of the Karr threads, and Karr was living in Atlanta at the time.

I bet him and his pedo cronies were all hunkered down in the back row with coats over their laps! :eek: Wouldn't put it past him. :rolleyes:

Scandi

[sweetmop]

I bet him and his pedo cronies were all hunkered down in the back row with coats over their laps! :eek: Wouldn't put it past him. :rolleyes:

Scandi[/QUOTE] :silenced: ... :sick:

[Eagle1]

I think you've hit the nail right on the head, Scandi and Sweetmop. Guess I wasn't interested in Karr at the time, until finding out about the bear, and that the pageant one had been white.

[Chrishope]

...

One thing pointed out was whoever wrote that note knew alot about John Ramsey, as to the bonus dollar amount and that SBTC are the initials of a base where John Ramsey was stationed.


...
Scandi


John was at Subic Bay Naval Base (SBNB).

[julianne]

John was at Subic Bay Naval Base (SBNB).
More specifically, Subic Bay Training Center (SBTC)

[JMO8778]

I think personally Karr is as bogus as bogus gets. Thats my opinion. But I expect the Ramsey team will try to get as much milage out of this as they can for as long as they can. I mean think about it. He confesses but they let him go. His interest in the JonBenet case was fame....he never gave any details that were not common knowledge.Yea,I think the R's and Co. are just using him to have someone to cast suspicion on...so his name will go down in history and in the books and encyclopedia's of the future,and ppl will always wonder or get the idea that he did it or may have done it,or was there or had something to do with it,when in fact he's just a schmuck they're using to help clear their name.

[SuperDave]

So....maybe just a thought was Helgoth a Scapegoat that didn't work to clear the Ramseys?

In a word, yep.

[Ames]

I think JR dictated part of the note to PR,and they both put in a few things that could throw suspicion on more than one person.
I agree...I have always thought that John dictated the note to Patsy...and she was the author. I also think that a sharpie pen was used (and possibly her left hand)...to disquise the writing.

[Ames]

Haypaula makes several good points about Karr and I'd like to add a couple.

(1) His handwriting from a 20 yr old h.s. yearbook,
(2) SBTC could mean something like "Shall Be The Conqueror".
(3) May have had pics, video, or something, felt he was there.
(4) Someone suicided Helgoth who may have been "the" killer, or one of...
(5) The "shabby" Santa bear found in JBR's room after the murder was not the one given to her at a pageant. The pageant one was white. The shabby one resembled a pic of Karr's own childhood Santabear. So he really may have been one of those present when she was killed.

I think all 5 of these points warrant consideration and remembering, although the DNA didn't match. That simply means he had to be with someone else.


Oh yeah....and don't forget that he "picked her up from school and took her home", nevermind that JB was on Christmas break, when this supposedly happened. (JMK was not there, and he had no part in her killing. He is a JBR killer wannabe..nothing more, nothing less....except maybe... pond scum).

[cynpat2000]

Oh yeah....and don't forget that he "picked her up from school and took her home", nevermind that JB was on Christmas break, when this supposedly happened. (JMK was not there, and he had no part in her killing. He is a JBR killer wannabe..nothing more, nothing less....except maybe... pond scum).Exactly, not to mention the fact he was hundreds of miles away. With an alibi. John Mark Karr had nothing to do with Jonbenets death, only in his sick perverted dreams.

I truly dont understand how people still feel he was involved.:waitasec:

[LionRun]

How many sleuthers on this forum think the ransom note was written intentionally with the hand that was NOT dominant?


Has this idea been posed by any handwriting experts? If so, does anyone know who or have a link? Again, thanks much fellow sleuthers.

[Ames]

How many sleuthers on this forum think the ransom note was written intentionally with the hand that was NOT dominant?


Has this idea been posed by any handwriting experts? If so, does anyone know who or have a link? Again, thanks much fellow sleuthers.
It is my understanding that Patsy was asked to give a handwriting sample using her left hand as well as her right. I don't know if the others were asked to do so, though. (I figured that Patsy was asked because her handwriting strongly resembles the author of the ransom letter (Hmmmmm...I just wonder why that is???) I do not have a link...sorry. I will try and find it though.

[Ames]

Exactly, not to mention the fact he was hundreds of miles away. With an alibi. John Mark Karr had nothing to do with Jonbenets death, only in his sick perverted dreams.

I truly dont understand how people still feel he was involved.:waitasec:
Yeah, you got me on THAT one!! I do not understand it either.....
JMK is just one sicko pervert....I really think that he needs to be strung up by his "you know whats"....on second thought...he would probably LOVE that. SICK, SICK, SICK.

[cynpat2000]

How many sleuthers on this forum think the ransom note was written intentionally with the hand that was NOT dominant?


Has this idea been posed by any handwriting experts? If so, does anyone know who or have a link? Again, thanks much fellow sleuthers.Heres a link to some samples of patsys handwriting.

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/index.htm

[SuperDave]

Has this idea been posed by any handwriting experts? If so, does anyone know who or have a link? Again, thanks much fellow sleuthers.

Yes on both counts:

http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/court.html

[LionRun]

Thank you cynpat and SuperDave for the links.

[SuperDave]

Always a pleasure.

[ANGRYWOLF]

written with the alternative hand.Nothing new there. People tend to think they are the only ones who have come up with these thoughts or that they've never happened in other cases...Handwriting isn't just the way you write words but the words you use...the manner and ways you use them.It's impossible to hide that.:twocents:

[SuperDave]

AngryWolf, I couldn't agree with you more! The FBI did in fact examine those elements. Their conclusion: a middle-aged southern woman with an education. Sound familiar?

[JMO8778]

How many sleuthers on this forum think the ransom note was written intentionally with the hand that was NOT dominant?


Has this idea been posed by any handwriting experts? If so, does anyone know who or have a link? Again, thanks much fellow sleuthers.I don't know for sure,but I recall from the Jeffery McDonald case that they could tell he put on a glove and wrote the word 'pig' with his left hand in blood on the headboard,and that was in the 70's,(maybe 80's? I don't recall when he was convicted) so I tend to believe they can tell for sure if it was written with the dominant hand or not.(I believe it was said JM was right-handed).