Time of Death: Rigor Mortis etc

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Hi all.

Yoooo-hoooo: "Is there a Doctor in the House ???" LOL.... (you're needed here!)

Just thinking about Rigor Mortis. If mild, RM may start a couple of hours after death. From what I've read, RM can commence in minutes - and may anything from 3/4 to 12 hours to 'set'. The body relaxes around 36 after RM has completed its course.

OK, so we don't know what stage of RM Michelle's body had reached when Meredith discovered her; suffice to say Meredith confirmed MY was cold to the touch and she couldn't move her. This was a 'deadweight' ... on top of which it appeared Michelle was lying at an awkward angle.

From lividity, or Livor Mortis - the pooling of blood in the body after death - the coroner and med forensics will be able to determine if MY was moved after her murder. LM will also assist establishing TOD.

As novices, perhaps we're assuming MY had been dead 12 hours by the time Meredith arrived? Maybe ... maybe she had only been dead ... say 6 hours???

Possible?

[close_enough]

Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions

Body temperature - Body stiffness - Time since death

warm - not stiff - dead not more than three hours
warm - stiff - dead 3 to 8 hours
cold - stiff - dead 8 to 36 hours
cold - not stiff - dead more than 36 hours


http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

interesting stuff.....imo

Michelle was "cold" & "stiff" per Meredith....

[packerdog]

Thanks for the info. Some would think we are morbid by wanting and looking up this kind of information but I think it is very important information.

I have to wonder how long it took her to die, being that there was so much blood makes me think it took awhile. You don't bleed after you are dead. Do you think that the killer left before knowing she was dead? If she was attacked in the bed and ended up on the floor she might have been barely alive.

[close_enough]

Thanks for the info. Some would think we are morbid by wanting and looking up this kind of information but I think it is very important information.

I have to wonder how long it took her to die, being that there was so much blood makes me think it took awhile. You don't bleed after you are dead. Do you think that the killer left before knowing she was dead? If she was attacked in the bed and ended up on the floor she might have been barely alive.

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

[packerdog]

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

Alot of really good thoughts there. Maybe the person did make sure she was dead before they left. I would think that blood would cast of on the walls and stuff. In the 911 call M said that there was blood everywhere.

[close_enough]

Alot of really good thoughts there. Maybe the person did make sure she was dead before they left. I would think that blood would cast of on the walls and stuff. In the 911 call M said that there was blood everywhere.

yeah, she did....those of Cassidy's footprints & i'd be willing to bet when she said "there's blood everywhere" she was probably just outside the bedroom, looking in....remember she said at one point, that she wasn't right there at Michelle's body...she was trying to keep Cassidy outside of the room, is how i took it...like maybe she was in a hallway, looking into the room during a part of the call.....i'm thinking there was a LOT of blood spatter/splatter in that bedroom....headboard, walls, floor, bed, nightstands, etc......

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Thanks for the info. Some would think we are morbid by wanting and looking up this kind of information but I think it is very important information.

I have to wonder how long it took her to die, being that there was so much blood makes me think it took awhile. You don't bleed after you are dead. Do you think that the killer left before knowing she was dead? If she was attacked in the bed and ended up on the floor she might have been barely alive.

Absolutely agree, packerdog. This information is critical to the homicide as well as the timelines of any/all others that may be current POI's. Folk are coming down on those of us (yeah ... shudder ... includes me...) that believe JY did it. If we are able to establish or understand how far along RM and lividity had set in ... we're able to understand the approximate TOD, and thus better equipped to 'judge' (layman's terms, that is), JY's involvement.

Be that as it may: nothing has been released. So, we're once again speculating and LORD KNOWS, that speculation-yardstick is eternal.

SO! I feel MY was surprised and attacked while in bed. Whether 'left for dead' and, as you suggest as an option, may have struggled to the floor herself ... then blood patterns and lividity will explain this ... or help explain this.

If the attack continued with MY in, and then leaving, the bed before she was killed, we'll also find that out. None of us have knowledge of the autopsy report. Judging by the 'skewed body' in its final fall, it might be assumed that MY's last breaths were taken from bed-to-floor. How long those last breaths lasted is a professional's opinion and deduction.

But ... it's not unreasonable to presume that MY was still alive as she hit the floor, as the heart would not pump blood if she were dead; there would be no pools of blood for Cassie to step in.... (basically...). If left on the bed, the bedclothes would have absorbed the blood. Cassie wouldn';t have had that many footprints.

I want to know what/how much blood was on the pillow - and if the pillow (speculation) may have been placed atop MY to prevent Cassie seeing too much? Or did MY pull the pillow with her? Did it fall on her? Why did Meredith need to touch the pillow?

For Cassie to have stepped in the blood - and run her footprints around the house - there had to have been substantial blood pooling. If... as we might *ASSUME* .... Meredith did not see the extent of her sister's injuries, then MY may not have been disturbed post attack ... and the injuries were underneath her and Meredith did not see all of her wounds (because pooling can't happen - say - if she was struck on the back of head if she was found face down... unless she was turned.) So a Med Examiner will be able to check if she was 'positioned' (turned, etc...) from those injuries ... or if and how she struggled in her last breaths of life.

By LE's description of a horrendous attack, seems likely we might assume MY fought for her life... but if there was a lot of blood matted in her hair (back of head) and she was found face down ... some one may have moved her.

To me, (a crime-murder addict), seems clear MY was not clinically dead as she hit the floor, for Cassie to have stepped in her blood and for Meredith to say "There are bloody footprints all over the house..." (or word to that effect). If Rigor Mortis started later say 10:00 am then the crime might have happened early hours of the morning. Aound 6 or 7 am.

What if JY drove back early am, before dawn, committed crime and left for his journey? He has 10 - 15 hours from the 11:00 pm (alleged) phone call to the 3 pm arrival at his parents. To eliminate JY, we need to identify his timeline. What if he 'faxed himself' via website on PC in early hours of 4th November?

Just thinking aloud... (but what if he checked out of his hotel early am, went by his house and then allegedly headed for VA or South Carloina briefly before driving to his parents? Gas, calls and records might prove this).

Throwing things out of my cot!

[PolkSaladAnnie]

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

Hi close... let's say MY was found on the bed: (perhaps this was spliced out of the tape, so it's pretty darn feasible...) ... then Cassie would have had to be near or next to her mom pretty quickly to get enough blood on her feet to run bloody footprints all over the house.

In getting on the bed, climbing over her mom, Cassie would have blood all over her (if we imagine the sweet clamberings of a 2 year old all over us). Ther may have been body smears on Cassie and perhps more fingerprints: but I took it that cassie stood in the blood to leave a trail.

Sooo interesting ... until we get the autopsy report, it's great to understand and accept different POVs.

Whew .... wish there was a little more detail! Not on the perp - but even on the crime scene. But we know LE withhold all details to close in on testimony.

Ack! ... LOL Inspectors Cleauseux-rette here ... :D

[PolkSaladAnnie]

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

Hi close... let's say MY was found on the bed: (perhaps this was spliced out of the tape, so it's pretty darn feasible...) ... then Cassie would have had to be near or next to her mom pretty quickly to get enough blood on her feet to run bloody footprints all over the house.

In getting on the bed, climbing over her mom, Cassie would have blood all over her (if we imagine the sweet clamberings of a 2 year old all over us). Ther may have been body smears from Cassie and fingerprints: but I took it that cassie stood in the blood to leave a trail.

Sooo interesting ... until we get the autopsy report, it's great to understand and accept different POVs.

Whew .... wish there was a little more detail! Not on the perp - but even on the crime scene. But we know LE withhold all details to close in on testimony.

Ack! ... LOL Inspectors Cleauseux-rette here ... :D

[close_enough]

ugh....i'm having a VERY hard time posting here right now :confused:

"server busy".....anyway, i've got to head out for today's bowling match, but will be back this evening...good reading POLK!!

[scandi]

There was one early statement in a link that she was found on the bed, but the Media is often wrong,

I agree with you Annie that Cassidy had to step on blood on the floor to track it all over. And also that to have that much pooling blood on the floor she would still been alive when she landed on the floor. With the bashing at the back of the head to create that much blood she would probably be unconscious and I don't know how long it would take her to die.

But I think the 11pm call was made for a specific reason to see if the friends had left as I think he went right back within an hour or so to kill her to expediate time and get it over with. How could he go to sleep knowing what he was going to do in a few hours?

Even though Baden said her skull was cracked open to the point where the brain was damaged {and I don't think he would say this unless he had inside info which is very possible as these forensic Dr's talk between themselves}, and knowing that in Michelles photos she had longer dark hair, the blood would matt with the hair and one would not see the damage readily unless the hair was moved. Her hair was probably tangled too.

What I'm getting at is I don't think Meredith realized the damage that had been done to Michelle at first glance.

Close, you mentioned you thought Meredith stood out in the hall to look across at Michelle. I don't picture it that way at all, as the sense I get from everything Meredith said is she went right over to Michelle and was right there beside the bed and in a media link I read that Cassidy was also found close to her mother. Just thinkin, or trying to as usual. LOL

Scandi


ETA: I'm having a hard time too Close, as it keeps saying the server is busy and then times out. What the . . .!

[close_enough]

There was one early statement in a link that she was found on the bed, but the Media is often wrong,

I agree with you Annie that Cassidy had to step on blood on the floor to track it all over. And also that to have that much pooling blood on the floor she would still been alive when she landed on the floor. With the bashing at the back of the head to create that much blood she would probably be unconscious and I don't know how long it would take her to die.

But I think the 11pm call was made for a specific reason to see if the friends had left as I think he went right back within an hour or so to kill her to expediate time and get it over with. How could he go to sleep knowing what he was going to do in a few hours?

Even though Baden said her skull was cracked open to the point where the brain was damaged {and I don't think he would say this unless he had inside info which is very possible as these forensic Dr's talk between themselves}, and knowing that in Michelles photos she had longer dark hair, the blood would matt with the hair and one would not see the damage readily unless the hair was moved. Her hair was probably tangled too.

What I'm getting at is I don't think Meredith realized the damage that had been done to Michelle at first glance.

Close, you mentioned you thought Meredith stood out in the hall to look across at Michelle. I don't picture it that way at all, as the sense I get from everything Meredith said is she went right over to Michelle and was right there beside the bed and in a media link I read that Cassidy was also found close to her mother. Just thinkin, or trying to as usual. LOL

Scandi


ETA: I'm having a hard time too Close, as it keeps saying the server is busy and then times out. What the . . .!

when did Baden say this?????....(i don't doubt that her skull was cracked, but when did Baden say this?)


also you're right...Meredith was right there with Michelle most of the call, but not all of it....

this is the part of the call, just before the dispatcher is trying to get Meredith to see if Michelle is dead or not....

dispatcher...."are you right by her now?"

Meridith..."i'm keeping her dauther out of there"

dispatcher..."ok, so you're not with her?"

Meredith...."im right outside the bedroom"

dispatcher..."alright, can you carry the phone where she's at?....can you secure her daughter?"

this is when Meredith asks Cassidy to go to her room....& we hear Cassidy say as plain as day "OK"...bless her heart:(

[scandi]

I agree Close, but the call had been ongoing for at least a minute or minute and a half. Don't you think Michelle was at her side and then the dispatcher asked her to put Cassidy in her room which is what she did?

And Dr Baden made that statement on Greta's show of the 17th I believe. I'll never forget the word cracked. It was so horrible to even imagine that.

Scandi

[close_enough]

I agree Close, but the call had been ongoing for at least a minute or minute and a half. Don't you think Michelle was at her side and then the dispatcher asked her to put Cassidy in her room which is what she did?

And Dr Baden made that statement on Greta's show of the 17th I believe. I'll never forget the word cracked. It was so horrible to even imagine that.

Scandi

right Scandi...the call had gone on for a minute or so, & Meredith had already told the dispatcher, the first time, that Michelle was cold...but at a point, right after that, Meredith must have taken Cassidy out of the room & was speaking to the dispatcher from outside the bedroom door....when the dispatcher realized Meredith wasn't in the room with Michelle, that's when he asks Meredith to secure Cassidy somewhere else, so Meredith can check to make SURE if Michelle is dead or not....course it didn't really matter anyway; Cassidy came back in the room...you can hear her through most all of the call...

i'm just surprised that Baden would know any info from the ME's office, to be honest....& if he does, i'm surprised he'd leak that info on Greta's show....i'm not saying you didn't hear it, but i'm just puzzled how he would know...

[scandi]

Hi Close, I snuck back in too! LOL I don't know. Those guys all talk among themselves and know each other very well after all the years. But when he said her skull was cracked to the point it disturbed the brains is when I knew it had to have been something he had heard or he wouldn't just say that. A crack in the skull might not necessarily go all the way through to expose what is inside.

Nitey Nite Scandi

[packerdog]

Hi Close, I snuck back in too! LOL I don't know. Those guys all talk among themselves and know each other very well after all the years. But when he said her skull was cracked to the point it disturbed the brains is when I knew it had to have been something he had heard or he wouldn't just say that. A crack in the skull might not necessarily go all the way through to expose what is inside.

Nitey Nite Scandi

I heard it to Scandi. I thought he said that there was brain damage from the blows to the head and it was severe.

[close_enough]

ok...cool:)

O/T...i wonder where Polk is????

[scandi]

Yea Packerdog, I think that is what he said too but kept my comments conservative as I didn't tape it. Now with your confirmation I agree that's what he said. Do we have that transcript on the links thread? We should ask Close as she seems to be the Mistress of the Links Thread! ;)

Scandi

PS: Mornin' Close. I miss her too! I know she was going to England on a business trip, so maybe she left. I think she leads a most interesting life.

[close_enough]

Yea Packerdog, I think that is what he said too but kept my comments conservative as I didn't tape it. Now with your confirmation I agree that's what he said. Do we have that transcript on the links thread? We should ask Close as she seems to be the Mistress of the Links Thread! ;)

Scandi

PS: Mornin' Close. I miss her too! I know she was going to England on a business trip, so maybe she left. I think she leads a most interesting life.

ooooh, ok...i forgot about her trip this weekend...thanks Scandi....i miss her:)

[PolkSaladAnnie]

ok...cool:)

O/T...i wonder where Polk is????

hello close & scands ... you're not that lucky...:D

"Hi Honey ...... I'm HOME!!!"

Been busy: had an expo to attend plus our now-regular "Open House BBQ" on Friday eve; dressed the Christmas Tree, yay! Now ... if there is a Glorious Marriage in this world: it's me and Chrtismas Tree decoratin, darlin! We don't see each other often enough to get a divorce and pack any problem-areas away in the broom cupboard for 11 months, hahaha...

You're right scandi ... leave for UK on 13 Dec @ 3 days! Rec'd a PM from a dear co-poster stating there's a 'new article'. Oooh er... must go read.

BRB to catch up!

How's everyone doing? :)

[close_enough]

glad to see you back Polk :blowkiss:

[jilly]

glad to see you back Polk :blowkiss:

I'll second that!:woohoo:

[PolkSaladAnnie]

I'll second that!:woohoo:

Hey jilly, tku v much! How have you been? Dressed your tree? I have :D.

Y'see? Only 2 days away and a news report came in... Maybe they're on 'the last laps' before the final countdown?

Does anyone else think it's possible he may have returned MUCH later or did I just have a total brain freakout? Say around 4 or 5 am - before Cassie awoke? Then changed, hid things, drove back to hotel: showered, collected his stuff and (allegedly) went to VA depositing 'evidence' en route? He may have stayed a few minutes there and headed straight to Brevard?

Just playing with options...

BUT ... I have got a sinking feeling with this 'Business Appointment'. Have you?

[close_enough]

i guess it's possible Polk, but it wouldn't be real smart on the perp's part, IMO....so close to the moring hours, but it's possible....

i still tend to think the TOD will be somewhere betw 1 & 3 am...

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Granted, close ... I thought the same way up to 2 days ago, hon. Reason is that I really believe in this sheriff and his dept. He's been exceptionally careful and deliberate with his very brief word-selectionL:

Soooo.... I have to zone in on a clue he offered a while back, basically asking:

"Did anyone see a vehicle or anything in the area between midnight and 6:00 am, Friday 3 November."

SOMETHING has to be known that we don't know - something that indicates movement, action, identification around and up to that time. As this request only came out a little LATER .... it may have been deduced from the coroner/ME report, if not from LE's ongoing investigations.

I feel MY did not die immediately. IS it possible cassie went through and her mommy managed to get a few words to her?? We'll never know ??

[scandi]

Maybe because it is a blank area of time when no one has reported anything happening at the house. The first car that drove by might have been at 6am, and either they called in or was a normal delivery truck in the area - milk, water, or a construction worker on the way to a house to set up for the day. Who knows but LE.

People that were up late and in sight of the house could have said midnight was the last time they noticed something, like suddenly they noiticed the upstairs light inside went off, which could mean she went to bed.

I don't think she died right away either - must have been alive when the killer left because there was so much blood - remember a friend said it was the most brutal crime they had seen in 20+ years in the area. I don't think she could talk though or move. The back of the brain had been damaged and isn't that movement? Where is the speech function? Hey, I didn't realize until today how far the teeth go back. To about the middle of the skull. That mandable joint below the ear is half way back in the skull.



Scandi

[close_enough]

bumping this over to page 1....:)

[PolkSaladAnnie]

bumping this over to page 1....:)

Eeeeuwww. Well. Let the other sink. Thanks close.

Apologies to all. Brain is cooked... Anyway (she says, turning crimson) .................

I STILL stink MY was murdered closer to 6 am


Any takers, benders or defenders?

[close_enough]

Eeeeuwww. Well. Let the other sink. Thanks close.

Apologies to all. Brain is cooked... Anyway (she says, turning crimson) .................

I STILL stink MY was murdered closer to 6 am


Any takers, benders or defenders?

lol, no big deal, but there's some good info/thoughts on this one, so i wanted to remind ya:)

the ONLY reason i think she was murdered before 6 am, is because Michelle was "cold" & "stiff" at 1:30 pm, on the 3rd....i think a good 10 to 12 hours had passed...

[PolkSaladAnnie]

lol, no big deal, but there's some good info/thoughts on this one, so i wanted to remind ya:)

the ONLY reason i think she was murdered before 6 am, is because Michelle was "cold" & "stiff" at 1:30 pm, on the 3rd....i think a good 10 to 12 hours had passed...

BUT .... (lol, close ...) BUT ..... RM may start any time up to 3 hours and may take up to 12 hours TO FULLY COMPLETE ITS CYCLE.

Sooo... let's say RM commenced within the hour ... by 7 am. 6 hours later the body may have been 80% there. Meredith would not have known. The blood was fresh enough for Cassisy to scamper all over and about ...

OK. I compromise (but it bugs me...) let's say it is not impossible...

[close_enough]

BUT .... (lol, close ...) BUT ..... RM may start any time up to 3 hours and may take up to 12 hours TO FULLY COMPLETE ITS CYCLE.

Sooo... let's say RM commenced within the hour ... by 7 am. 6 hours later the body may have been 80% there. Meredith would not have known. The blood was fresh enough for Cassisy to scamper all over and about ...

OK. I compromise (but it bugs me...) let's say it is not impossible...

you're right Polk...it's not impossible at all...there's a lot of things that could speed up or slow down the process....i'm just thinking along the lines of her body being there in a warm house, rather than being found outside in the cold weather....lots of variables for sure!

Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions

Body temperature - Body stiffness - Time since death

warm - not stiff - dead not more than three hours
warm - stiff - dead 3 to 8 hours
cold - stiff - dead 8 to 36 hours
cold - not stiff - dead more than 36 hours

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

[scandi]

One thing I've learned is that pregnant women go into Rigor faster. Once a body is at the height of rigor - completely stiff which she was - it stays that way for a long time, up to 36 hours. Then it starts to de-rigorize in the same way it originally happened. The eyes go into rigor first, and the eyes are the last to lose their rigor.

Depending on circumstances like heat in the room, pregnancy, etc, I thought it took 12 hours to reach full rigor. And also have read it can start anytime up to 2 hours, not 3 { :blowkiss: LOL}

First you have to know her time of death. Bleeding as much as she had to where there would be enough blood on the floor for Cassidy to track through and make so many prints, I don't think she died right away, in fact could still have been alive when the killer left. The killer knew with her head split open she wasn't going to suddenly get up and walk!

We had the rumor which could be true that he rented a motel 1/2 mile away from the house. The reason he did that I think was since he had made up his mind she had to die, he wanted to get it over with - probably nervous as he!! I think he waited an hour after the 11pm call, time for her to go to sleep and arrived back there around 12:15 to 12:30, ready to do it. The attack would have happened soon after his arrival I think, and he could have been out of there by say 12:30.

If Michelle was dead by 12:30 am, and it took her only an hour to start to go into rigor because the house would be warm and she was pregnant, the body found at 1:30 the next afternoon would be close to reaching rigor. IMO.

If she died at 6am she would only have been in rigor 61/2 hours saying it took one hour for rigor to start. Stiff, but not comletely. Leann Coburn would know more as she was a mortician.

Scandi

ETA: Oops! Thanks Close. I made an error in that rigor has left completely 36 hours after death. That's a day and a half.. If it takes 12 hours for rigor to be set, it probably takes the same amount of time to go away. Still leaves 12 hours of complete stiffness, HNot that any of this applies to Michelle!~ :waitasec: LOL

[close_enough]

oh yes, Scandi...any info from Leann Coburn would be greatly appreciated here on this thread:)

interesting stuff.....

my nephew just got here, so i'm out, but i'll be back!!:)

[scandi]

Close, I PM'ed Leann and told her we would love her input here. I've got to get food and myself ready for a partee that starts at 4, so will check in and then be back tonight. Scandi

[PolkSaladAnnie]

Close, I PM'ed Leann and told her we would love her input here. I've got to get food and myself ready for a partee that starts at 4, so will check in and then be back tonight. Scandi

Brill! thanks scandi, leann's a mortician! Would be great to have her knowledge. ENJOY your "partee" ....

[close_enough]

here we go...i just found this; thought it was interesting, so i dug this thread back out...

blunt force trauma..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_force_trauma

[close_enough]

so at autopsy Michelle wasn't in rigor....if you back track from the time of the autopsy, 36 hours would be 11:30 pm on November 2nd....i understand all of this stuff isn't 'in stone' & there's lots & lots of variables....since Michelle still had some partially digested food in her stomach, i think WhiteWolf is right (along with some others)....Michelle might have been killed at midnight, or even a tad bit before....it's not unusual for someone to still be up piddling about in the house, if a friend had left at 10:30 pm......

oh geeezzz, i need to go to bed...

[Samiya]

so at autopsy Michelle wasn't in rigor....if you back track from the time of the autopsy, 36 hours would be 11:30 pm on November 2nd....i understand all of this stuff isn't 'in stone' & there's lots & lots of variables....since Michelle still had some partially digested food in her stomach, i think WhiteWolf is right (along with some others)....Michelle might have been killed at midnight, or even a tad bit before....it's not unusual for someone to still be up piddling about in the house, if a friend had left at 10:30 pm......

oh geeezzz, i need to go to bed...Kinda of makes me wonder what WCSO think of the info I sent them lol.

When I sent what they asked for, I forgot to edit my notes from it. I had estimated TOD from between 11:15pm Thursday to 3:35am Friday.

So they either :laugh: or went :eek:

Sami

[raisincharlie]

Kinda of makes me wonder what WCSO think of the info I sent them lol.

When I sent what they asked for, I forgot to edit my notes from it. I had estimated TOD from between 11:15pm Thursday to 3:35am Friday.

So they either :laugh: or went :eek:

SamiSami,

I know very little about all this rigor, lividity, and all this kind of stuff but I will agree with you on the 1115 to 0335 time period. Based on other known events this would be the time frame which "works". JMO

ETA - "he was at certain places at certain times"
"frequently checking his voicemail"

[Samiya]

Sami,

I know very little about all this rigor, lividity, and all this kind of stuff but I will agree with you on the 1115 to 0335 time period. Based on other known events this would be the time frame which "works". JMO

ETA - "he was at certain places at certain times"
"frequently checking his voicemail"Ahhhhh....There You Is :)

Wonder if the battery went dead in the phone. It was awfully busy by the sounds of it, lol.

Sami

[scandi]

Thanks Sami,

Now I wonder this! LOL She was found at 1:30 in the afternoon. Because of what she was wearing { ETA: and the food in her stomach} many at CTV think her TOD was closer to midnight or at the latest 2am. That would mean she lay there not being moved for 12 hours.

If what you say is true about the 8 hour span of time, she would have to have died around 5:30 in the morning at the latest, right?

[close_enough]

ya know what would be nice?...wish an 'insider' could tell us MY's routine, as far as how early she would wake up in the mornings....i guess it IS possible that MY was an early riser...was up at 5 am; had gotten dressed, grabbed a piece of toast & was THEN killed....that just doesn't fit though for some reason....

i'm like RC...don't know enough (well, i know nothing) about rigor & all that jazz, to even really comment...read a bit about it late last night, & it only confused me more :crazy:

i'm TRYING to think simple....& when i do that, i come up with MY being killed around midnight...MAYBE even as late as what i had first thought (betw 1 & 3 am)....but closer to midnight....she hadn't gotten ready for bed yet...her having no socks or shoes on doesn't bother me though...i walk barefoot in the house all the time..always have..occasionally when it's cold i'll put a pair of socks on, but as a rule, i don't....i think MY was piddling about the house, maybe getting ready for the next morning, after her friend left...who knows?...washing a load of clothes; anything.....she may have been in the bedroom, & had just sat on the bed to take her socks off, when she was attacked....so many scenarios....

[raisincharlie]

Ahhhhh....There You Is :)

Wonder if the battery went dead in the phone. It was awfully busy by the sounds of it, lol.

Sami
Since he had two - I'm thinking one might have been a floor mount which charges if the phone is in the cradle - the other could have charged normally on the cig lighter with a dc adapter.

I hope that the phones were very busy - nothing like drawing a road map for LE of his traveled routes. Timing of transfer from tower to tower could also identify areas where he may have stopped along the way. JMO but I think there were a few stops that had nothing to do with real "work related business".

We have heard the rumor that JY supposedly called MY twice on the morning of the 3rd - does anyone else wonder why Cassidy didn't answer the phone. She would have been alone, looking for band aids, any kind of help - don't you think she would have answered the phone just to talk to someone ? She was surely jabbering up Meredith.

[close_enough]

Since he had two - I'm thinking one might have been a floor mount which charges if the phone is in the cradle - the other could have charged normally on the cig lighter with a dc adapter.

I hope that the phones were very busy - nothing like drawing a road map for LE of his traveled routes. Timing of transfer from tower to tower could also identify areas where he may have stopped along the way. JMO but I think there were a few stops that had nothing to do with real "work related business".

We have heard the rumor that JY supposedly called MY twice on the morning of the 3rd - does anyone else wonder why Cassidy didn't answer the phone. She would have been alone, looking for band aids, any kind of help - don't you think she would have answered the phone just to talk to someone ? She was surely jabbering up Meredith.

good point....Cassidy was 2 1/2....she see's mommy & daddy on the phone, knows it rings, see's them answer it....(sighs) i don't know that she'd know the button to push or not....she may have tried, if there were calls early that morning, bless her heart:(

[happy2bn10ec]

I must have missed something, but why do you think the flashlight (or something else) is in Duffield? That is very close to me - I didn't realize how close until now.

[jilly]

I must have missed something, but why do you think the flashlight (or something else) is in Duffield? That is very close to me - I didn't realize how close until now.

I think he might be saying that because he believes JY went to Duffield and he threw it out along with anything else to do with the murder. So what are you doing this weekend, Happy? :D

[happy2bn10ec]

I think he might be saying that because he believes JY went to Duffield and he threw it out along with anything else to do with the murder. So what are you doing this weekend, Happy? :DI'm all for a road trip if I knew where I was going and what I was looking for!
And I don't have to wait for the weekend - I can go tomorrow. It's only about an hour away.

[raisincharlie]

I must have missed something, but why do you think the flashlight (or something else) is in Duffield? That is very close to me - I didn't realize how close until now.
Hello Happy,

Duffield - let me preface this by saying there was a gas receipt dated 11/3 from a Get it Market confiscated from JY's SUV. We all went searching and found a Get it Market in Duffield and another in Big Stone Gap. A source confirmed through the manager of the Get it Market in Duffield that LE did look at video from that store and JY was there on 11/3.

I am of the opinion that JY did not have a business meeting in Duffield - there is nothing there for Chart One - there is no logical reason for JY to be there if he had a meeting in Blacksburg or Roanoke - no reason to pass through on the way to Brevard from either of those places.

From the people mag article - it was referenced that JY hiked the Appalachian Trail and sure enough that trail runs very close to Duffield and the natural tunnel area down to Damascus. IMO JY had a familiarity with the area from his hiking - pictures of the area show it to be extremely hilly and wood covered. Lots of places to dispose of things IMO that might not be found in this lifetime. JMO.

[close_enough]

I'm all for a road trip if I knew where I was going and what I was looking for!
And I don't have to wait for the weekend - I can go tomorrow. It's only about an hour away.

lol....if i were up there with you, we could go on a 'mission' :cool: .....i know you're close up there at the VA line, but it just never 'clicked' HOW close you are, girl!!!

[Barney Fife]

Thanks Sami,

Now I wonder this! LOL She was found at 1:30 in the afternoon. Because of what she was wearing { ETA: and the food in her stomach} many at CTV think her TOD was closer to midnight or at the latest 2am. That would mean she lay there not being moved for 12 hours.

If what you say is true about the 8 hour span of time, she would have to have died around 5:30 in the morning at the latest, right?

The ME that was on the scene that Friday afternoon has a good idea on the TOD. The rectal temp, amount or rigor and livor would clue him to a time frame other than 12am - 6 am per LE.

If you split the difference, 3 am gives 3 hour prior and 3 hours after for the public to recall seeing suspicious cars or activity.

[close_enough]

The ME that was on the scene that Friday afternoon has a good idea on the TOD. The rectal temp, amount or rigor and livor would clue him to a time frame other than 12am - 6 am per LE.

If you split the difference, 3 am gives 3 hour prior and 3 hours after for the public to recall seeing suspicious cars or activity.

hmmm, i see what you mean....

[close_enough]

excellent link here....it was posted over & ctv & i wanted to share....

"Time Since Death"

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm

[happy2bn10ec]

lol....if i were up there with you, we could go on a 'mission' :cool: .....i know you're close up there at the VA line, but it just never 'clicked' HOW close you are, girl!!!
Yes, close, we are right there! Close to Duffield, VA and also close to Brevard going the other way. Oldest son is going to Bryson City next weekend; rented a cabin with the new g/f (I hope they are not going to get a wild hair and get married...:eek: ) and it is right next door to Brevard. In fact, it just about has to be the same town where JY worked previously. That's about all there is over there - that river and the accompanying businesses. And anyway, I THINK me and hubby are taking off that same weekend for our anniversary trip to the same area. We just ain't gonna tell #1 son, so he won't follow us! We will be about an hour away from them in Asheville. Maybe...haven't decided for sure yet. This the big TENTH so we gotta do something!

(I am hoping I am on the O/T thread - I can't remember which one I am on now...)

If they don't close this one up soon - you should plan a road trip and we'll go checking around. We'll do a daily blog to keep everyone updated on our investigation...yeah...

[close_enough]

Yes, close, we are right there! Close to Duffield, VA and also close to Brevard going the other way. Oldest son is going to Bryson City next weekend; rented a cabin with the new g/f (I hope they are not going to get a wild hair and get married...:eek: ) and it is right next door to Brevard. In fact, it just about has to be the same town where JY worked previously. That's about all there is over there - that river and the accompanying businesses. And anyway, I THINK me and hubby are taking off that same weekend for our anniversary trip to the same area. We just ain't gonna tell #1 son, so he won't follow us! We will be about an hour away from them in Asheville. Maybe...haven't decided for sure yet. This the big TENTH so we gotta do something!

(I am hoping I am on the O/T thread - I can't remember which one I am on now...)

If they don't close this one up soon - you should plan a road trip and we'll go checking around. We'll do a daily blog to keep everyone updated on our investigation...yeah...

can't you just picture us tooling around in your cool car, investigating, taking pictures etc.... :cool:

[happy2bn10ec]

can't you just picture us tooling around in your cool car, investigating, taking pictures etc.... :cool:
Oh yes, I've already got it all figured out - we'll wear sunglasses, those really great big ones, and trench coats and hats.:cool: (We bad...) And take all kinds of technical looking equipment (camera, video camera, audio recorders, etc.) Dylan has a bunch of spy gadgets he might let me "rent"! Hey, I have a girlfriend in Knoxville who just got her PI license - I'll see if she can come along. She knows all kinds of stuff that will be useful to us. And...she likes those margaritas, like me! I know, not for you, but we'll fix you up, too!

[close_enough]

Oh yes, I've already got it all figured out - we'll wear sunglasses, those really great big ones, and trench coats and hats.:cool: (We bad...) And take all kinds of technical looking equipment (camera, video camera, audio recorders, etc.) Dylan has a bunch of spy gadgets he might let me "rent"! Hey, I have a girlfriend in Knoxville who just got her PI license - I'll see if she can come along. She knows all kinds of stuff that will be useful to us. And...she likes those margaritas, like me! I know, not for you, but we'll fix you up, too!

LOL....sounds like a plan! (thumbs up)