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Beyond Belief
12-12-2006, 10:59 PM
Jay Bakker Preaches In Bars
NEW YORK -- He's tattooed, multi-pierced and preaching God's grace to people who otherwise might be turned away from the church.
Jay Bakker, who rebelled after the fall of his televangelist parents, is a minister in the new reality series "One Punk Under God: the Prodigal Son of Jim and Tammy Faye."


The show, which airs Wednesday evenings on the Sundance Channel, is about the church he calls Revolution, which, notwithstanding his decade-long sobriety, holds services in an Atlanta bar.


Jay Bakker spent his teens self-destructing on alcohol and drugs after his parents' "Praise the Lord" empire collapsed in scandal and his father went to jail for fraud.


But now, Bakker preaches God's grace to a flock of fellow punks.
http://www.wftv.com/family/10515179/detail.html
2sisters
12-12-2006, 11:16 PM
Good for him. I am glad he could get his life straight.
julianne
12-12-2006, 11:19 PM
I give him credit for staying off the drugs and booze, for sure.

I say good for him. He's probably going to get a strong following, because many kids and younger people today tend to be put off by some of the "tsk-tskers" and hoity-toityness of some typical churches, where a strict dress code is mandated etc. It's important for people to feel like they "belong" and I think he's certainly carving a niche where one needs to be carved. I say if he is doing good things in his life, and is encouraging others to also do good things in their lives, then he's very much on the right track.
Taximom
12-12-2006, 11:23 PM
Oops, I didn't read the article yet, but one I read the other day says his mom (Tammy Faye) is in a hospice now.
:(
narlacat
12-13-2006, 12:21 AM
Poor guy, no small wonder he's mixed up.
sillygoose
12-13-2006, 12:58 AM
My first thought upon reading this thread was, "Well, that makes sense, his parents had a punk ministry for years."
LinasK
12-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Gee, I'll bet Tammy Faye is real proud, NOT! :doh: Personally, if they were my parents, I think I would've committed suicide!
michelle
12-13-2006, 09:35 PM
Gee, I'll bet Tammy Faye is real proud, NOT! :doh: Personally, if they were my parents, I think I would've committed suicide!Geeze, That is kind of harsh. I dont agree with everything my parents do but I would NEVER kill myself. I am sure Tammy is proud, he turned out well.
Dark Knight
12-13-2006, 10:02 PM
Oops, I didn't read the article yet, but one I read the other day says his mom (Tammy Faye) is in a hospice now.
:(
She is battling cancer and is in very bad shape right now.
Dark Knight
12-13-2006, 10:06 PM
Geeze, That is kind of harsh. I dont agree with everything my parents do but I would NEVER kill myself. I am sure Tammy is proud, he turned out well.
Geeeez, no kidding!
windovervocalcords
12-13-2006, 10:06 PM
She is battling cancer and is in very bad shape right now.
Too bad. I really like her.
deanws
12-13-2006, 10:11 PM
Geeze, That is kind of harsh. I dont agree with everything my parents do but I would NEVER kill myself. I am sure Tammy is proud, he turned out well.
I was thinking the same thing Michelle.
windovervocalcords
12-13-2006, 10:12 PM
ok not all posts are "tasteful" are they?
narlacat
12-13-2006, 10:19 PM
She did only say-'she thinks' lol
windovervocalcords
12-13-2006, 10:21 PM
She did only say-'she thinks' lol
Hey, did you ever see the movie about Tammy Faye? I love her. Big heart.
narlacat
12-13-2006, 10:23 PM
Hey, did you ever see the movie about Tammy Faye? I love her. Big heart.
Nope, I never did.
deanws
12-13-2006, 10:24 PM
Hey, did you ever see the movie about Tammy Faye? I love her. Big heart.I saw it. I really like her too.
:( It is sad she is so ill.
windovervocalcords
12-13-2006, 10:25 PM
Nope, I never did.
The Eyes of Tammy Faye-

A documentary:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0233687/
Dark Knight
12-13-2006, 10:26 PM
Too bad. I really like her.
The AP described her condition as "gravely ill" which usually means close to death.

I am not a fan of either her or her ex husband after what they did, but I hope she has gotten right with the Lord since then.
windovervocalcords
12-13-2006, 10:32 PM
The AP described her condition as "gravely ill" which usually means close to death.

I am not a fan of either her or her ex husband after what they did, but I hope she has gotten right with the Lord since then.DK for your sake I hope she gets right with you.

Her heart makes her right with the Lord. But what do I know? I'm not a Christian.

You bring out the devil in me Dk. I just want to dip your pigtails in ink! This one's for you babe...

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/o/soldiers.htm
cappuccina
12-13-2006, 10:50 PM
:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Lady

to hear her voice: http://www.danacarvey.net/carpics.html
Dark Knight
12-13-2006, 11:00 PM
DK for your sake I hope she gets right with you.

Her heart makes her right with the Lord. But what do I know? I'm not a Christian.

You bring out the devil in me Dk. I just want to dip your pigtails in ink! This one's for you babe...

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/o/soldiers.htmWho told you I wear pigtails??????

(LOL I have no idea what you just said to me, but I laughed at the image.)

Anyways, am I supposed to like the fact they took advantage of Christian's generosity? I can and do forgive her, but it doesn't mean I have to be a fan of what she was a part of. I am not a fan of many televangelists truth be known. I hope she has repented and is ready for Heaven when her time comes soon.

ETA: You have the gift of reading hearts??? I thought only I had such gifts!* :crazy:

*no
2sisters
12-13-2006, 11:02 PM
Who told you I wear pigtails??????

(LOL I have no idea what you just said to me, but I laughed at the image.)

Anyways, am I supposed to like the fact they took advantage of Christian's generosity? I can and do forgive her, but it doesn't mean I have to be a fan of what she was a part of. I am not a fan of many televangelists truth be known. I hope she has repented and is ready for Heaven when her time comes soon.I am not either, I think they are scam artists personally.
windovervocalcords
12-13-2006, 11:07 PM
Who told you I wear pigtails??????

(LOL I have no idea what you just said to me, but I laughed at the image.)

Anyways, am I supposed to like the fact they took advantage of Christian's generosity? I can and do forgive her, but it doesn't mean I have to be a fan of what she was a part of. I am not a fan of many televangelists truth be known. I hope she has repented and is ready for Heaven when her time comes soon.

ETA: You have the gift of reading hearts??? I thought only I had such gifts!* :crazy:

*noIn Catholic school when I was young they still had inkwells in the desks. But there was no longer any ink in them. It is a famous naughty to dip someone's pigtails in ink in school.

Once upon a time we all had long hair.

I guess I just like to tease you because you get so fierce and serious.
close_enough
12-13-2006, 11:15 PM
:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Lady

to hear her voice: http://www.danacarvey.net/carpics.html

lol...could it beeeeeee saaatan??? :p (doing the church lady dance here)
close_enough
12-13-2006, 11:17 PM
Hey, did you ever see the movie about Tammy Faye? I love her. Big heart.

no, but i saw her on the The Surreal Life (sp?) & she was a hoot, bless her heart....
LinasK
12-13-2006, 11:39 PM
I am not either, I think they are scam artists personally.
Rent the movie "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin in it, you'll appreciate it!
narlacat
12-13-2006, 11:43 PM
Rent the movie "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin in it, you'll appreciate it!
That's about the only Steve Martin movie I've ever liked, he was good in that.
SieSie
12-14-2006, 12:32 AM
I give him credit for staying off the drugs and booze, for sure.

I say good for him. He's probably going to get a strong following, because many kids and younger people today tend to be put off by some of the "tsk-tskers" and hoity-toityness of some typical churches, where a strict dress code is mandated etc. It's important for people to feel like they "belong" and I think he's certainly carving a niche where one needs to be carved. I say if he is doing good things in his life, and is encouraging others to also do good things in their lives, then he's very much on the right track.
:clap: I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this post states exactly how I feel - thank you for wording it so well, so I didn't have to! :D
samhoney
12-14-2006, 02:17 AM
Oops, I didn't read the article yet, but one I read the other day says his mom (Tammy Faye) is in a hospice now.
:(That makes me SO SAD. :( I'm not a Christian but I admire Tammy Faye'. Seeing her on Larry King brimming with optimism and a positive outlook on her disease was touching. I hope she is comfortable and not suffering.
Taximom
12-14-2006, 07:50 AM
The one thing I appreciated about Tammy Faye Bakker was her clear acceptance of the homosexual community. I'm not sure how that happened, but that was a good example to others that Christians can and should treat all people as human beings.

I'd love to hear what her old talk-show pal (Jim ?????) has to say as he clearly had a great relationship with her.

I think her son is carrying on that effort to be more accepting of people, without condoning their activities.
narlacat
12-14-2006, 03:13 PM
The one thing I appreciated about Tammy Faye Bakker was her clear acceptance of the homosexual community. I'm not sure how that happened, but that was a good example to others that Christians can and should treat all people as human beings.

I'd love to hear what her old talk-show pal (Jim ?????) has to say as he clearly had a great relationship with her.

I think her son is carrying on that effort to be more accepting of people, without condoning their activities.
How do you mean Taximom?
You mean like his Mum's acceptance of gays?
Taximom
12-14-2006, 03:20 PM
How do you mean Taximom?
You mean like his Mum's acceptance of gays?
The article I read originally (wish I could find it) stated that Jay's "church" was more open to everyone, which includes the gay community. I'm assuming though!:rolleyes:
narlacat
12-14-2006, 03:51 PM
I don't think it's any different than loving a person despite their smoking, using drugs or having an alcohol problem, or whatever activity you personally don't condone.

I'm not here for a debate with anyone.:D


People have control over those things, being gay is not something you can change.

I was just wondering if that's what the article said.
Taximom
12-14-2006, 05:15 PM
People have control over those things, being gay is not something you can change.

I was just wondering if that's what the article said.
narlacat, I keep looking for the article I read with no luck. I'll keep looking. I'm glad he was opening his doors to all no matter what their situation (punk etc). That was how I felt after reading it anyway.

Whether or not you can change something doesn't make a difference to me either. I'm not sure what Jay Bakker thinks about that though-that's just me! lol
txsvicki
12-15-2006, 12:37 AM
I am not either, I think they are scam artists personally.

I think so, too. My late mother in law used to send them money sometimes and it really annoyed her family. I am sorry that Tammy Faye is so ill and do think that she has a cute personality and is a real character.
2sisters
12-15-2006, 08:20 AM
Why does there always have to be a religious argument on here?
michelle
12-15-2006, 10:16 PM
I really admire Tammy with all she has been through, she is a very loving and accepting woman. Here is her latest letter from her website. http://www.tammyfaye.com/note20061213.htm
spclk
12-15-2006, 10:51 PM
Why does there always have to be a religious argument on here?
Amen 2sisters! That is the beauty of living in the USA, we are all free to believe whatever we want. So, all of you.....please practice whatever religion you like, believe how you want to believe, but please have the same respect for everyone else. We will all have the answers when we leave this earth, on way or the other.
Taximom
12-16-2006, 09:53 AM
Did it say that about accepting people but not condoning their activites?

I don't get that...that's like those crazy Catholics saying its okay to be gay, as long as you don't have gay sex..Hey narla, after watching Jay Bakker last night on Larry King I still don't know the answer to that question. That darn Larry King and his silly questions! Anyway, my point was that I'm glad that he and his mom (don't know about Jim) were accepting of others and didn't close people out of religion for whatever reason.

End of discussion, I hope!

Check this page out for LK transcripts if you want to read about Jay's church:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/lkl.html

The Dec 15th transcript will probably show up Monday.

SIDE NOTE: Jay said Tammy Faye is down to about 65-68 lbs. LK interviewed her by phone last night and she receives hospice care at home. She was still as perky as ever and has high hopes for recovery. It didn't sound promising though.

(edited because I can't spell in the morning!)
narlacat
12-16-2006, 04:19 PM
Hey narla, after watching Jay Bakker last night on Larry King I still don't know the answer to that question. That darn Larry King and his silly questions! Anyway, my point was that I'm glad that he and his mom (don't know about Jim) were accepting of others and didn't close people out of religion for whatever reason.

End of discussion, I hope!

Check this page out for LK transcripts if you want to read about Jay's church:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/lkl.html

The Dec 15th transcript will probably show up Monday.

SIDE NOTE: Jay said Tammy Faye is down to about 65-68 lbs. LK interviewed her by phone last night and she receives hospice care at home. She was still as perky as ever and has high hopes for recovery. It didn't sound promising though.

(edited because I can't spell in the morning!)
No worries Taximom, thanks for trying.
cappuccina
12-16-2006, 04:32 PM
...and now it seems to be gone...
narlacat
12-16-2006, 04:33 PM
...and now it seems to be gone...Wow, one of mine is gone too and I just posted it lol
tybee204
12-16-2006, 04:37 PM
yup and I bet if you run a google search you can find any number of forums that love debating religion and even allow people to post insulting comments regarding people and religions they dont like or agree with.
windovervocalcords
12-16-2006, 04:40 PM
yup and I bet if you run a google search you can find any number of forums that love debating religion and even allow people to post insulting comments regarding people and religions they dont like or agree with.That brings up a question. I have been surprised that its ok for posters to publically post prayers from their traditions here, holy pictures etc.

That's ok? There have been alot of threads--da vinci code for example that had alot of religious content to it.

I even remember several other faith threads. How is this different?

It also seems perfectly acceptable here to criticize Muslims enmasses mercilessly yet the Christian sensitivity is more supported.

It appears to me.
tybee204
12-16-2006, 05:01 PM
That brings up a question. I have been surprised that its ok for posters to publically post prayers from their traditions here, holy pictures etc.

That's ok? There have been alot of threads--da vinci code for example that had alot of religious content to it.

I even remember several other faith threads. How is this different?

It also seems perfectly acceptable here to criticize Muslims enmasses mercilessly yet the Christian sensitivity is more supported.

It appears to me.
People's signature picture is a personal expression not a condemnation of the beliefs of others. The Jury room where prayer threads are present is considered a social forum. Members are free to participate or not.
The Religious content and argument in this forum and others has been lax as of late because Staff has been dealing with alot of real life issues. I have been sick, Beebs lost her daughter etc.
Well playtime is over and posts of an insulting/derogatory nature will be deleted and the member timed out.
Anyone wanting to pray or spread the word go to your Church, your Temple, or whatever your house of Worship of choice is.
Anyone wanting to condemn or insult a Religion find another forum to do it on.
windovervocalcords
12-16-2006, 05:04 PM
People's signature picture is a personal expression not a condemnation of the beliefs of others. The Jury room where prayer threads are present is considered a social forum. Members are free to participate or not.
The Religious content and argument in this forum and others has been lax as of late because Staff has been dealing with alot of real life issues. I have been sick, Beebs lost her daughter etc.
Well playtime is over and posts of an insulting/derogatory nature will be deleted and the member timed out.
Anyone wanting to pray or spread the word go to your Church, your Temple, or whatever your house of Worship of choice is.
Anyone wanting to condemn or insult a Religion find another forum to do it on.
Thats clear.

Thank you.
michelle
12-16-2006, 08:17 PM
I did not know Tammy was that bad off, I feel bad for her. Jay seems to be doing alot of good, I think it is great.
Jeana (DP)
12-16-2006, 10:25 PM
Tammy and Jim Baker deserve to rot in hell for the things they did. I don't wish death on anyone, but she's got a lot to answer for. If I were her, I'd be scared about where I might end up.
Dark Knight
12-17-2006, 01:14 AM
Tammy and Jim Baker deserve to rot in hell for the things they did. I don't wish death on anyone, but she's got a lot to answer for. If I were her, I'd be scared about where I might end up.
C'mon, Jeana, tell us how you REALLY feel! :D :crazy:
Jeana (DP)
12-17-2006, 10:41 AM
C'mon, Jeana, tell us how you REALLY feel! :D :crazy:


Sorry! Didn't mean to be so vague. :rolleyes:
windovervocalcords
12-17-2006, 11:00 AM
Tammy Faye is dying of cancer.


I loved her kindness and naivety. She was tolerant about gays and AIDS.

I hope that whatever suffering she has as she dies helps her to purify any harm she may have done in her life so that she has a fortunate afterlife.

May all who suffer be quickly relieved of their suffering. When we die may we all be remembered for our positive qualities as well as our human failings.

"There's times when I just have to quit thinking . . . and the only way I can quit thinking is by shopping."
Tammy Faye Bakker (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/tammyfayeb166856.html)
Jeana (DP)
12-17-2006, 12:06 PM
Yeah, I can see why being inside Tammy's own head must be a nightmare. If I had to sit around and think about the millions of people I screwed out of their money, I'd have a hard time being alone with myself as well. Here's just a bit of information for those of who who have been warmed by the passing of time:

By the early 1980s the Bakkers had built Heritage USA (in Fort Mill, south of Charlotte), then the third most successful theme park in the US, and a satellite system to distribute their network 24 hours a day across the country. Annual contributions requested from viewers were estimated to exceed $1,000,000 a week, with proceeds to go to expanding the theme park and mission of PTL. Eventually, Jerry Falwell with the backing of a $20,000,000 drive took control of the PTL.[1]

Between 1984 and 1987, the Bakkers received annual salaries of $200,000 each and Jim awarded himself over $4,000,000 in bonuses. Their assets at that time included a $600,000 house in Palm Springs, four condominiums in California, and a Rolls Royce[citation needed]. In their success, the Bakkers took conspicuous consumption to an unusual level for a non-profit organization. PTL once spent $100,000 for a private jet to fly the Bakkers' clothing across the country. It also once spent $100 for cinnamon rolls because the Bakkers wanted the smell of them in their hotel room [citation needed]. According to Frances FitzGerald in an April 1987 New Yorker article, "They epitomized the excesses of the 1980s; the greed, the love of glitz, and the shamelessness; which in their case was so pure as to almost amount to a kind of innocence."


On March 19, 1987, following threats of the revelation of the payoff to former secretary Jessica Hahn, whom Bakker's staff members had paid $265,000 to keep secret her allegation that he had raped her, Bakker resigned from PTL. Jerry Falwell called Bakker a liar, an embezzler, a sexual deviant, and "the greatest scab and cancer on the face of Christianity in 2,000 years of church history."

Financial irregularities in the PTL organization led to another scandal. From 1984 to 1987, Bakker and his PTL associates had sold "lifetime memberships" for $1,000 or more that entitled buyers to a three-night stay annually at a luxury hotel at Heritage USA. According to the prosecution at Bakker's later fraud trial, tens of thousands of memberships had been sold, but only one 500-room hotel was ever completed. Bakker sold more "exclusive" partnerships than could be accommodated, while raising more than twice the money needed to build the actual hotel. A good deal of the money went into Heritage USA's operating expenses, and Bakker kept $3,700,000 for himself. Bakker, who apparently made all of the financial decisions for the PTL organization, kept two sets of books to conceal the accounting irregularities. Reporters from the newspaper The Charlotte Observer, led by Charles Shepard, discovered and exposed the financial wrongdoings. Heritage USA is now partly abandoned, with many of the subcontractors who did the building still waiting to be paid.

Conviction and prison
Bakker was indicted on federal charges of fraud, tax evasion, and racketeering. In 1989, after trial in Charlotte, Judge Robert Potter convicted Bakker of fraud and conspiring to commit fraud and sentenced him to 45 years in federal prison. Bakker's associate, Richard Dortch, senior vice-president of PTL and associate pastor of Heritage Village Church, also went to prison. In 1992, Bakker and his wife Tammy Faye were divorced at her request. * * *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker

How Tammy escaped a long prison sentence is beyond me. But, I assume she'll get what's due her before too long.
windovervocalcords
12-17-2006, 12:13 PM
"Forgiveness is a choice. And it's a choice you ask God to help you keep. It doesn't happen overnight. Forgiveness is an ongoing battle.

It's the only way you can have true happiness because unforgiveness eats you up inside. It's like an acid and it will truly make you sick. I think unforgiveness has been more people's problem than anything in the world. Because when you see somebody you are angry at, your tummy tenses up, your blood pressure goes up, your fists clench, you go into a different mode. And that's not good for the body. So people should forgive just to save themselves.

" I think being gay is just being a person who has a different thought on life. They're just people. I don't think that God categorizes people. I went to Disneyland one time, and it rained -- it’s so awful when it rains at Disneyland -- and everyone disappeared inside. And when the rain stopped and everybody came out, every single person had yellow raincoats on. You couldn't tell the fat from the thin, the rich from the poor. You couldn't tell anyone from anyone else. And that day I looked up and I said, “God, I think this is how you see us, all in yellow raincoats, and only you have the permission to look under those yellow raincoats.”

Tammy Faye Bakker
Taximom
12-17-2006, 12:17 PM
Let's hope their son and daughter learned many valuable lessons from the older Bakker's escapades!

BTW, I feel pity for anyone dying a slow death of cancer, past bad acts or not. I don't know where she's going to end up in the end, but in the meantime, my heart goes out to her and her family. It's a tough thing to go through.

(ducking)

P.S. Now that I think about it, strike "anyone" in my first sentence. Murderers like Peterson, Duncan, et al can die a slow, painful death anytime and I won't feel an ounce of pity towards them.

(ducking again)
windovervocalcords
12-17-2006, 12:29 PM
"The Bible says ‘Judge not lest ye be judged.’ Our lives are supposed to be hospitals, not courtrooms. Religious people today are courts and juries. When it comes down to it, Jesus died on the cross so that we could learn to love others like we love ourselves, not judge them or persecute them. Yet these people today who are supposed to be Christians are the first ones to pick up The Globe, The Star and The National Enquirer. And they are supposed to be good Christians?"

Tammy Faye Messner (formerly Bakker)

Here's what her son has to say about her:
JAY BAKKER : Yes, it’s very hard. It nearly breaks my heart when I hug her. I can feel her bones. But she’s beautiful. My mom is so beautiful to me. And, you know, people have said so many mean things about my mother in the past. And, you know, I really don’t give a damn, because I love my mom. And she is just a wonderful, beautiful woman. And she has encouraged me not to give up, because a lot of people have told me, oh, you should give up. You’re a heretic. Oh, you shouldn’t preach. http://www.spcm.org/Journal/spip.php?article4736


Tammy Faye is dying. Her own words show the wisdom, love and compassion she has. She does not express much anger. This leads me to believe that she will have a fortunate afterlife. May we all be so lucky to have no anger in our hearts but only love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and wisdom in each moment of our lives and especially at the time of our death.
Wind
Jeana (DP)
12-17-2006, 01:59 PM
"The Bible says ‘Judge not lest ye be judged.’ Our lives are supposed to be hospitals, not courtrooms. Religious people today are courts and juries. When it comes down to it, Jesus died on the cross so that we could learn to love others like we love ourselves, not judge them or persecute them. Yet these people today who are supposed to be Christians are the first ones to pick up The Globe, The Star and The National Enquirer. And they are supposed to be good Christians?"

Tammy Faye Messner (formerly Bakker)

Here's what her son has to say about her:
JAY BAKKER : Yes, it’s very hard. It nearly breaks my heart when I hug her. I can feel her bones. But she’s beautiful. My mom is so beautiful to me. And, you know, people have said so many mean things about my mother in the past. And, you know, I really don’t give a damn, because I love my mom. And she is just a wonderful, beautiful woman. And she has encouraged me not to give up, because a lot of people have told me, oh, you should give up. You’re a heretic. Oh, you shouldn’t preach. http://www.spcm.org/Journal/spip.php?article4736


Tammy Faye is dying. Her own words show the wisdom, love and compassion she has. She does not express much anger. This leads me to believe that she will have a fortunate afterlife. May we all be so lucky to have no anger in our hearts but only love, compassion, sympathetic joy, and wisdom in each moment of our lives and especially at the time of our death.
Wind

I'm not sure why she should be the one whose angry. What about all the people she helped rip off? Maybe she should include them in her will. After all, she's about to learn you can't take it with you. Maybe she's tried to make peace with God, but she's got a lot to atone for. Don't know if there's enough time. She has had a better life than she deserved. If she ended up angry on top of it, then I would despise her even more.
windovervocalcords
12-17-2006, 04:16 PM
Perhaps I should not have said "Tammy Faye does not express much anger" to say that I have never heard her express a word of anger.

For the record, it was her husband, Jim Bakker that was convicted of accounting fraud and was shown to have an affair with his secretary. Tammy Faye divorced him. Some judged her harshly for not standing by her man. I always thought Jim Bakker was a snake oil salesman but Tammy Faye I think was naive.

She seems to have a shopping addiction. We all have "something". At least she doesn't seem to have a mean bone in her body.

Her own words are quite profound. And I posted some of them previously.

I think when she dies, she will die peacefully and rest in the profound absolute nature of Love. We should all be so fortunate to practice profound forgiveness, and to die in peace, holding no grudges toward any living being.
BirdieBoo
12-17-2006, 04:46 PM
I watched the show this morning on the sundance channel.

Its a documentary style series about Jay Bakker. It was Jim Bakker, the husband, who was convicted of fraud, and not Tammy Faye. Jim has a new wife and a new TV ministry. He would not return his son's phone calls.

The son, Jay Bakker seems like a really honest-down-to-earth individual. And he loves his dad (despite everything) and was hurt that his dad will not return his phone calls.

Watching that show I said, I feel sorry for that guy, he has a sociopath for a dad.

If you have the Sundance Channel, its on Sundance on demand, its free on our cable system.
Lauren
12-17-2006, 04:49 PM
I remember the Paint the Lady (PTL) scandal. Although I remember her makeup and I saw her on the VH1 house thing where old celebs hang out and thought she was a hoot. Everyone deserves to die in peace. No one needs pain. Life is hard enough with mistakes we make. I wish her well. Despite what they may have done.
windovervocalcords
12-17-2006, 04:57 PM
I remember the Paint the Lady (PTL) scandal. Although I remember her makeup and I saw her on the VH1 house thing where old celebs hang out and thought she was a hoot. Everyone deserves to die in peace. No one needs pain. Life is hard enough with mistakes we make. I wish her well. Despite what they may have done.
"Whatever Jim Bakker's conscious or neglectful malfeasance, The Eyes of Tammy Faye, the documentary film is convincing that Tammy Faye is a victim. She is outrageous but never insincere. She's a person of some talent, astonishing good humor and inspiring perseverance. Most important, she's a person with a genuine goodness of heart.

I still wouldn't want to watch Tammy Faye sing or listen to her vapid declarations about her relationship with God. But seeing the world through her eyes has opened mine. And I am ashamed for having felt so superior to her, for judging her guilty of things for which she was almost assuredly innocent, for thinking about her and her circumstances with such contempt. And I know this for sure: I would rather stand at her side before the gates of Heaven than to get in the line for judgment headed by the likes of the sanctimonious Rev. Mr. Falwell."

http://www.bestofneworleans.com/mov/revarch/tammyfaye.html
michelle
12-17-2006, 06:17 PM
I watched the show this morning on the sundance channel.

Its a documentary style series about Jay Bakker. It was Jim Bakker, the husband, who was convicted of fraud, and not Tammy Faye. Jim has a new wife and a new TV ministry. He would not return his son's phone calls.

The son, Jay Bakker seems like a really honest-down-to-earth individual. And he loves his dad (despite everything) and was hurt that his dad will not return his phone calls.

Watching that show I said, I feel sorry for that guy, he has a sociopath for a dad.

If you have the Sundance Channel, its on Sundance on demand, its free on our cable system.Thanks I am going to watch that.
michelle
12-17-2006, 06:19 PM
Perhaps I should not have said "Tammy Faye does not express much anger" to say that I have never heard her express a word of anger.

For the record, it was her husband, Jim Bakker that was convicted of accounting fraud and was shown to have an affair with his secretary. Tammy Faye divorced him. Some judged her harshly for not standing by her man. I always thought Jim Bakker was a snake oil salesman but Tammy Faye I think was naive.

She seems to have a shopping addiction. We all have "something". At least she doesn't seem to have a mean bone in her body.

Her own words are quite profound. And I posted some of them previously.

I think when she dies, she will die peacefully and rest in the profound absolute nature of Love. We should all be so fortunate to practice profound forgiveness, and to die in peace, holding no grudges toward any living being.You are right, jim was convicted. I think tammy has a good heart and she will be in heaven no doubt in my mind. Nobody deserves to die the way she is, I would not want that for anyone. Except the murderers, SP and so forth. Tammy was his wife so naturally she will get a bad rap. I feel bad for her. I cant help it, I guess I am too sympathetic. I think Jerry Fallwell is a snake in the grass. JMO
michelle
12-17-2006, 06:21 PM
Let's hope their son and daughter learned many valuable lessons from the older Bakker's escapades!

BTW, I feel pity for anyone dying a slow death of cancer, past bad acts or not. I don't know where she's going to end up in the end, but in the meantime, my heart goes out to her and her family. It's a tough thing to go through.

(ducking)

P.S. Now that I think about it, strike "anyone" in my first sentence. Murderers like Peterson, Duncan, et al can die a slow, painful death anytime and I won't feel an ounce of pity towards them.

(ducking again)I second this. Cancer is the worst.
Taximom
12-17-2006, 06:26 PM
Frankly, I think Tammy Faye was not intelligent enough to have carried off that whole disaster by herself. She did have a part in it, and lived well off of other people's money, so I do blame her for her participation in that.

If I'm ever a wealthy preacher's wife and buy my dogs an air-conditioned dog house, please come arrest me!

This thread was originally about Jay Bakker and his "church", wasn't it? We sure have gone off-topic! lol
michelle
12-17-2006, 06:28 PM
Frankly, I think Tammy Faye was not intelligent enough to have carried off that whole disaster by herself. She did have a part in it, and lived well off of other people's money, so I do blame her for her participation in that.

If I'm ever a wealthy preacher's wife and buy my dogs an air-conditioned dog house, please come arrest me!

This thread was originally about Jay Bakker and his "church", wasn't it? We sure have gone off-topic! lolThe thing about the air condition in the dog house, I heard them say that is untrue. I think jay said that as well. Who knows, its been so long since all this went down. I of course grew up with my mom and most of my "christian family" watching PTL. I definatly know that they lived well.
Taximom
12-17-2006, 06:39 PM
During the PTL fallout, I remember seeing video of Tammy giving a tour of their house and the doghouse. I could have sworn that she said it was a/c'd.

With my memory I could be wrong though. There were other excesses, of course. That one just popped into my head.
windovervocalcords
12-17-2006, 07:36 PM
During the PTL fallout, I remember seeing video of Tammy giving a tour of their house and the doghouse. I could have sworn that she said it was a/c'd.

With my memory I could be wrong though. There were other excesses, of course. That one just popped into my head.The doghouses were heated by an old heater.

Really, its ancient history, but the more you look into this whole PTL fraud scandal the more you see the role of Jerry Falwell and his motivation to take over PTL and cancel out the televangelism competition.
michelle
12-17-2006, 09:15 PM
The doghouses were heated by an old heater.

Really, its ancient history, but the more you look into this whole PTL fraud scandal the more you see the role of Jerry Falwell and his motivation to take over PTL and cancel out the televangelism competition.You are so right.
deanws
12-20-2006, 03:19 PM
Perhaps I should not have said "Tammy Faye does not express much anger" to say that I have never heard her express a word of anger.

For the record, it was her husband, Jim Bakker that was convicted of accounting fraud and was shown to have an affair with his secretary. Tammy Faye divorced him. Some judged her harshly for not standing by her man. I always thought Jim Bakker was a snake oil salesman but Tammy Faye I think was naive.

She seems to have a shopping addiction. We all have "something". At least she doesn't seem to have a mean bone in her body.

Her own words are quite profound. And I posted some of them previously.

I think when she dies, she will die peacefully and rest in the profound absolute nature of Love. We should all be so fortunate to practice profound forgiveness, and to die in peace, holding no grudges toward any living being.Your post is beautiful Wind.:angel:
txsvicki
12-21-2006, 12:48 AM
Tammy Faye wasn't always so nice to everyone. In 1986 or so, I watching PTL one day, and Tammy Faye was cackling and obviously had too much to drink. She was making fun of 2 midget twin brothers who were guests on the show, saying " I finally met someone shorter than me" and a few other comments. Jim was giving her dirty looks and the brothers were really embarrassed, but she just kept on. When I tried to tell my mother in law about it she just claimed that Tammy was drunk in the spirit but I don't believe that she sent them any more money after that.
windovervocalcords
12-21-2006, 11:24 AM
Tammy Faye wasn't always so nice to everyone. In 1986 or so, I watching PTL one day, and Tammy Faye was cackling and obviously had too much to drink. She was making fun of 2 midget twin brothers who were guests on the show, saying " I finally met someone shorter than me" and a few other comments. Jim was giving her dirty looks and the brothers were really embarrassed, but she just kept on. When I tried to tell my mother in law about it she just claimed that Tammy was drunk in the spirit but I don't believe that she sent them any more money after that.
I am sure you are right that Tammy Faye had her flaws. I just hope when we are dying people remember our positive qualities more than some negative incident that may have happened over twenty years ago we leave this life.

At the very least, may we all think kindly of each other as we lay dying so we may pass out of this life in peace.
Jeana (DP)
12-21-2006, 11:29 AM
When one has wronged tens of thousands of people for the nothing more than money and fail to take responsibility or make amends, then its my opinion that their final days shouldn't be the same as someone who spend their life doing good. They ripped people off and used God's name in doing so. That's worse than any crack dealer on the street.
windovervocalcords
12-21-2006, 11:42 AM
If we train in letting go of grudges way ahead of the time of our death, then when our moment comes the letting go into peace is easier. Tammy Faye has been preparing well. She has a loving, forgiving heart and no resentment or meanness to anyone.

IMO these are qualities that embody the teachings of her faith.
Jeana (DP)
12-21-2006, 11:46 AM
If we train in letting go of grudges way ahead of the time of our death, then when our moment comes the letting go into peace is easier. Tammy Faye has been preparing well. She has a loving, forgiving heart and no resentment or meanness to anyone.

IMO these are qualities that embody the teachings of her faith.


I'm not sure what she's got to be resentful or mean about. After all, she's the one who did the ripping off. If someone ripped her off, then she'd have some reason for those feelings. She lived a life way beyond her means on the backs of hard working people. If stealing money from people who can't afford to give so that she can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on things she doesn't mean is a "teaching of her faith," then that's a faith I want nothing to do with.
windovervocalcords
12-21-2006, 11:53 AM
I'm not sure what she's got to be resentful or mean about. After all, she's the one who did the ripping off. If someone ripped her off, then she'd have some reason for those feelings. She lived a life way beyond her means on the backs of hard working people. If stealing money from people who can't afford to give so that she can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on things she doesn't mean is a "teaching of her faith," then that's a faith I want nothing to do with.She is practicing a faith of love and forgiveness. There is not an ounce of bitterness or meanness in her. She is a shining example of the direction to take one's mind and heart to have a happy life, now, and in the hereafter.

I wish her well. I wish you well.
Jeana (DP)
12-21-2006, 12:02 PM
She is practicing a faith of love and forgiveness. There is not an ounce of bitterness or meanness in her. She is a shining example of the direction to take one's mind and heart to have a happy life, now, and in the hereafter.

I wish her well. I wish you well.

Thanks.
windovervocalcords
12-21-2006, 12:07 PM
Thanks.
:) Jeana

TWO FRIENDS IN THE DESERT

A story tells that two friends were walking through the desert. During some point of the journey they had an argument, and one friend slapped the other one in the face.

The one who got slapped was hurt, but without saying anything, wrote in the sand:

TODAY MY BEST FRIEND SLAPPED ME IN THE FACE.

They kept on walking until they found an oasis, where they decided to take a bath. The one who had been slapped got stuck in the mire and started drowning, but the friend saved him.

After he recovered from the near drowning, he wrote on a stone:

TODAY MY BEST FRIEND SAVED MY LIFE.

The friend who had slapped and saved his best friend asked him, "After I hurt you, you wrote in the sand and now, you write on a stone, why?" The other friend replied "When someone hurts us we should write it down in sand where winds of forgiveness can erase it away. But, when someone does something good for us, we must engrave it in stone where no wind can ever erase it."

LEARN TO WRITE YOUR HURTS IN THE SAND AND TO CARVE YOUR BENEFITS IN STONE.

They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them, but then an entire life to forget
them.
Jeana (DP)
12-21-2006, 12:17 PM
:) Jeana

TWO FRIENDS IN THE DESERT

A story tells that two friends were walking through the desert. During some point of the journey they had an argument, and one friend slapped the other one in the face.

The one who got slapped was hurt, but without saying anything, wrote in the sand:

TODAY MY BEST FRIEND SLAPPED ME IN THE FACE.

They kept on walking until they found an oasis, where they decided to take a bath. The one who had been slapped got stuck in the mire and started drowning, but the friend saved him.

After he recovered from the near drowning, he wrote on a stone:

TODAY MY BEST FRIEND SAVED MY LIFE.

The friend who had slapped and saved his best friend asked him, "After I hurt you, you wrote in the sand and now, you write on a stone, why?" The other friend replied "When someone hurts us we should write it down in sand where winds of forgiveness can erase it away. But, when someone does something good for us, we must engrave it in stone where no wind can ever erase it."

LEARN TO WRITE YOUR HURTS IN THE SAND AND TO CARVE YOUR BENEFITS IN STONE.

They say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them, but then an entire life to forget
them.


I like that. Thanks for sharing!
txsvicki
12-24-2006, 12:54 AM
Tammy's dying but are many other people right now. Doesn't change the facts or history. I've got no use for people who steal from widows and the Bible is full of warnings about that sort of thing, especially to Christians. The couple in first church lied about what they were going to sell and fell over dead as punishment. Christians, especially leaders, are not guaranted a full and healthy life for doing such things and Tammy is known for her works, which was doing Christians wrong. Whether, these people go to Heaven or not is up to God and their true relationship to him, and I sure wouldn't judge that sort of thing but I'm going by what the Bible has to warn and teach about them and not by what other people have to say.
Dark Knight
12-24-2006, 06:05 AM
She is practicing a faith of love and forgiveness. There is not an ounce of bitterness or meanness in her. She is a shining example of the direction to take one's mind and heart to have a happy life, now, and in the hereafter.

I wish her well. I wish you well.
Wow, you can read people's hearts now! You said that so authoritatively! Just like you KNOW her motivations, wow!!!! I guess there is no chance she is conning us now, like she did before, so we better believe her this time.

I hope she is sincere. But I am not gullable. Maybe your shining example needs some more money, gonna send her some?
Dark Knight
12-24-2006, 06:08 AM
Tammy's dying but are many other people right now. Doesn't change the facts or history. I've got no use for people who steal from widows and the Bible is full of warnings about that sort of thing, especially to Christians. The couple in first church lied about what they were going to sell and fell over dead as punishment. Christians, especially leaders, are not guaranted a full and healthy life for doing such things and Tammy is known for her works, which was doing Christians wrong. Whether, these people go to Heaven or not is up to God and their true relationship to him, and I sure wouldn't judge that sort of thing but I'm going by what the Bible has to warn and teach about them and not by what other people have to say.
As I said, I hope she has gotten right with the Lord for real, before she dies, and is forgiven. She obviously still has tremendous influence on certain people and could easily manipulate them. It's amazing she has that kind of power over some people still! Incredible, actually. And yes, you can tell a tree by it's fruits. I hope and pray she has truly repented.
IrishMist
12-24-2006, 09:40 AM
Wow, you can read people's hearts now! You said that so authoritatively! Just like you KNOW her motivations, wow!!!! I guess there is no chance she is conning us now, like she did before, so we better believe her this time.

I hope she is sincere. But I am not gullable. Maybe your shining example needs some more money, gonna send her some?No point in quoting or teasing Windover, DK.

She has been permanently banned.
Dark Knight
12-24-2006, 10:04 AM
No point in quoting or teasing Windover, DK.

She has been permanently banned.
Oh, well NVM then, lol. Thanks for letting me know.
2sisters
12-24-2006, 10:57 AM
No point in quoting or teasing Windover, DK.

She has been permanently banned.Wow, you are away form WS for a few days and you miss so much. I do agreee though with DK about Tammy FAye. Fool me once...
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