Patsys Clothes?

[Vegas Bride]

I understand that Patsy was wearing the same outfit she had on the night before. Now there have been times that I've thrown on the same thing myself but do put on clean underwear and socks. Does anybody know if Patsy had changed these or was she also wearing the underwear from the night before? If she was still in the same underwear I would have to think she'd never undressed at all that night.

VB

[poco]

I understand that Patsy was wearing the same outfit she had on the night before. Now there have been times that I've thrown on the same thing myself but do put on clean underwear and socks. Does anybody know if Patsy had changed these or was she also wearing the underwear from the night before? If she was still in the same underwear I would have to think she'd never undressed at all that night.

VB

Yes, you and I might wear the same clothes from the night before - but Patsy Ramsey = especially when, I believe she was fixing to board a plane....

Not sure if anyone stripped her down to her underwear though and who would have known - unless John watched her get dressed and remembered what underwear she put on.

[Show Me]

Patsy didn't mention changing her underwear in DOI...but she did put on the same clothes and her makeup. Patsy didn't shower 'cause her shower was broken and for some reason she didn't use the bath/showers in the other bathrooms.

She was to meet her future son in law and wanted to make a good impression....she may stink to high heaven but Patsy looked good with her face made up.

[icedtea4me]

I could probably give her a pass on wearing the same pants again, but not the same sweater.


-Tea

[poco]

Patsy Ramsey WOULD NOT wear the same clothes two days in a row - get real...... what, perhaps, should someone see her who saw her the night before - OMG, the gossip....

[Show Me]

Patsy Ramsey WOULD NOT wear the same clothes two days in a row - get real...... what, perhaps, should someone see her who saw her the night before - OMG, the gossip....

Ah Poco...remember when Thomas and others, said Patsy was wearing the same outfit Christmas Eve and Christmas day....then Patsy went on to do 2 interviews wearing the same clothes? She said she often wore the same outfit 2 days in a row.....must be an ex beauty queen thing.

[SuperDave]

The last thing I want to think about his her underwear!

[JMO8778]

The last thing I want to think about his her underwear!Me too,esp since she'd likely say she wore it 2 days in a row!

[icedtea4me]

Ah Poco...remember when Thomas and others, said Patsy was wearing the same outfit Christmas Eve and Christmas day....then Patsy went on to do 2 interviews wearing the same clothes? She said she often wore the same outfit 2 days in a row.....must be an ex beauty queen thing.I think it was a mistake to let this information be known to her.


-Tea

[JMO8778]

Ah Poco...remember when Thomas and others, said Patsy was wearing the same outfit Christmas Eve and Christmas day....then Patsy went on to do 2 interviews wearing the same clothes? She said she often wore the same outfit 2 days in a row.....must be an ex beauty queen thing.Not to mention that awful outfit..the blue suit with the white pinstripes, burnt a whole in my psych forever.Now I hate blue suits,lol.

[Show Me]

I think it was a mistake to let this information be known to her.


-Tea

Me too...


JMO....Reminded me of a doll's outfit.

[JMO8778]

Me too...


JMO....Reminded me of a doll's outfit.Yes, a "Sailor Barbie" of sorts :p

[kactres]

Several years ago...I actually saw Patsy attending the Tennesse Williams Festival at a theater where i was working...It was so weird , I turned around and there she was in that Blue Dress with the strip around the collar...I told my friends that i has seen her and they said "how did you know it was Patsy"...I replied " I would know that darn dress anywhere.."

[JMO8778]

Several years ago...I actually saw Patsy attending the Tennesse Williams Festival at a theater where i was working...It was so weird , I turned around and there she was in that Blue Dress with the strip around the collar...I told my friends that i has seen her and they said "how did you know it was Patsy"...I replied " I would know that darn dress anywhere.."LOL,you'd think she would have retired the darn thing after being seen on tv in it..sounds like she wanted to get the public's attn.

[Ames]

I understand that Patsy was wearing the same outfit she had on the night before. Now there have been times that I've thrown on the same thing myself but do put on clean underwear and socks. Does anybody know if Patsy had changed these or was she also wearing the underwear from the night before? If she was still in the same underwear I would have to think she'd never undressed at all that night.

VB
Hi, I am a newbie to the board here. I used to be over at the Courttv boards, but got fed up with the bashing from the IDI's. I believe that Patsy never changed out of those clothes, and never went to bed that night. Why didn't she change? Because her wearing the same outfit that she was wearing when she flung herself on JB's dead body, after John brought her up...would explain her clothing fibers found on JB, same with John. I believe thats the reason that he "found" JB's body....so that him finding her and picking her up, would explain any evidence on her that pointed toward him. I think that they intentionally tried to screw up the crime scene, and it worked (so far, that is...in my opinion).

[coloradokares]

Hi, I am a newbie to the board here. I used to be over at the Courttv boards, but got fed up with the bashing from the IDI's. I believe that Patsy never changed out of those clothes, and never went to bed that night. Why didn't she change? Because her wearing the same outfit that she was wearing when she flung herself on JB's dead body, after John brought her up...would explain her clothing fibers found on JB, same with John. I believe thats the reason that he "found" JB's body....so that him finding her and picking her up, would explain any evidence on her that pointed toward him. I think that they intentionally tried to screw up the crime scene, and it worked (so far, that is...in my opinion).
Ames I am so glad you are here. I am so happy to see you here. :p

[icedtea4me]

This is from the interrogation on June 23, 1998-



0018

1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first

2 thing you did along that route.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there.

6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those

7 were clothes you had worn the night before?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a

11 lot.

12 TOM HANEY: Now did you intend to

13 wear those the rest of the day though or --

14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do, you know, my thinking was I

17 have my underwear and all that is in these

18 drawers here, so I put my underwear on, but I

19 put the black velvet pants on the and the red

20 sweater, red top, and then we have clothes up at

21 the lake, and I took a few things with me. You

22 know, it was just so early, I was just going to

23 throw on whatever I had up there. Just get in,

24 tumble into bed and when we awake early, you

25 know, kind of almost get ready up there. You

0019

1 know.

www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm (http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm)


So it looks like she said she did put on a fresh pair of underwear that morning. Whether or not she actually did is debatable.


-Tea

[Show Me]

Thanks Icetea....So there's a good chance Patsy put fresh underwear on underneath the clothes she wore yesterday.....yeah why bother to walk across the room and pick a new outfit out of the closet when you can reach down and pick yesterday's stinky clothes off the floor.

Guess Patsy thought the outfit wowed the christmas party folk and the outfit ought to impress her future son in law she was to meet later.....smell was not the issue.

[Charlie]

Patsy proberly didnt put on her outfit until the evening before going to the whites and she got home at 10ish so she didnt wear it that long, doubt it was stinky.

I know i wear nice clothes on xmas day, usually new clothes ive recieved that morning as a present. It doesnt seem odd to me she would want to look nice on both xmas day and the 26th when meeting her future son-in-law, therefore wearing the same "good" clothes.

[Show Me]

Patsy proberly didnt put on her outfit until the evening before going to the whites and she got home at 10ish so she didnt wear it that long, doubt it was stinky.

I know i wear nice clothes on xmas day, usually new clothes ive recieved that morning as a present. It doesnt seem odd to me she would want to look nice on both xmas day and the 26th when meeting her future son-in-law, therefore wearing the same "good" clothes.

It took months for the cops to get the clothes from Patsy for testing, had to go through the lawyers, Ramseys didn't volunteer to hand the clothes over.....she was fond of that outfit!

[Charlie]

It took months for the cops to get the clothes from Patsy for testing, had to go through the lawyers, Ramseys didn't volunteer to hand the clothes over.....she was fond of that outfit!

Dont get me wrong i think the ramseys are guilty of murdering JonBenet, but i dont think the fact that Patsy wore the same clothes is indicative of guilt, although waiting months to hand them over to LE is suspicious.

[Jayelles]

Nobody has ever said that Patsy stank "to high heaven". Nor do I think she'd be "stinking to high heaven" after wearing an outfit for only a few hours at a social get together in mid winter. Maybe if she'd been moving furniture in a fish factory during a heat wave.

Patsy's Christmas outfit consisted of a red and black fleecy seasonal-styled "blazer" and a pair of black velvet trousers. She wore them for a few hours of socialising and decided to put them on again the following day. I honestly cannot see the problem with this - especially since it was a "Christmas" outfit - i.e. one which she might only choose to wear during 2/3 festive days of the year.

The theory that her wearing the same outfit meant she hadn't been to bed is non-sensical for one big reason. If Patsy had come home from the Whites, murdered her daughter, staged the crime scene and then called the police - all whilst wearing the same outfit...... there would have been a TON of forensic evidence on that outfit. Patsy had no way of knowing that the police wouldn't have immediately arrested her and John and taken their clothing for testing.

If Patsy had been up all night committing murder and covering it up, the most important part of the cover up would have been to change or get rid of her clothing.

OTOH, she claimed she hadn't had a shower AND that she had decided to wear the same clothes again. It's possible that was a very CLEVER part of the staging if she had indeed had a shower and laundered the clothes that she had worn to commit the crime.

[Nuisanceposter]

Ames, I'm really glad to see you here, too. :)

[Vegas Bride]

To me it's understandable if she only wore the outfit a few hours the evening before, to go ahead and wear it the next morning with just putting on clean underwear. If she did have it on all night long while busy staging the scene the clothes would have had much more wear to them. If she had washed them sometime during the night would the sweater have been able to be washed and dried without showing damage? Which brings me back to my original question that I wish I had an answer to and that is did she have a change of underwear on?

VB

[Jayelles]

To me it's understandable if she only wore the outfit a few hours the evening before, to go ahead and wear it the next morning with just putting on clean underwear. If she did have it on all night long while busy staging the scene the clothes would have had much more wear to them. If she had washed them sometime during the night would the sweater have been able to be washed and dried without showing damage? Which brings me back to my original question that I wish I had an answer to and that is did she have a change of underwear on?

VB
We don't know about the underwear - and will likely never know. We know she says she didn't have a shower because her shower was broken, but we don't know when she last had a shower or where she last had a shower or why she didn't simply use one of the many other showers or baths in the house.

[icedtea4me]

Thanks Icetea....So there's a good chance Patsy put fresh underwear on underneath the clothes she wore yesterday.....yeah why bother to walk across the room and pick a new outfit out of the closet when you can reach down and pick yesterday's stinky clothes off the floor.

Guess Patsy thought the outfit wowed the christmas party folk and the outfit ought to impress her future son in law she was to meet later.....smell was not the issue.You're welcome! I had been looking up something else from that interrogation when I happened to come across that tidbit. It's possible she didn't go to bed right away like she said and was up doing other things still dressed in those clothes. At least she says wore clean underwear the next day.


-Tea

[Nuisanceposter]

Personally, I can't see wearing the same outfit the next day. She had a closet full of clothes, I can't believe she'd want to put on the same clothes she'd worn the night before.

True, after wearing in only a few hours it wouldn't have been as raunchy as if she'd worn it the entire day, but I know from just having gone through Christmas socializing that plenty can happen to make an outfit less then fresh in a few hours.

I don't know about others, but when I'm dressed in a long-sleeved shirt with a jacket type garment over it inside someone's house, I end up perspiring - especially when I'm talking and laughing and moving around, having a good time. That alone would have me not wanting to dress in the same clothes the next day, and add into that the atmosphere - were people smoking in the White's house during the party? I'm not a smoker, and when I realize I've been around smokers enough for the smell to have gotten on my clothes, I change those clothes. Patsy was a former smoker. Perhaps the smoke smell, if there was any, didn't bother her.

But flying to Michigan...being on a plane for more than an hour in an outfit that may smell of smoke or perspiration would be more than I could handle, not to mention I don't think it would be as comfortable as, say, jeans and sweatshirt. Patsy was also going to spending time with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart Long, someone she barely knew. I'd be surprised if Patsy was all set to wow the new beau in an outfit she'd had on the night before as well as on the flight up to Michigan. I just don't think it fits in with who her friends say she was - her own friends expressed disbelief that Patsy would get up and redress in the same outfit she'd worn the night before. it wasn't like she didn't have any other Christmas-y outfit she could have worn....

And then there's the fiber evidence. The fibers found in the paint tray, on the tape, and tied into the ligature knot were chemically and microscopically consistent with Patsy's jacket, which leads me to believe that she had that jacket on when she staged the scene, with the tape and tying the ligature around JB's neck. That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket? I've never staged a crime scene and killed a child, but I'm pretty sure I'd make myself comfortable and shed off the jacket before I rolled up my sleeves to do the dirty work. I sure as heck would not be standing there in the same outfit I'd had on all night when the police arrived.

So what's the real story in regards to the jacket and Patsy wearing it two days in a row?

[UKGuy]

Personally, I can't see wearing the same outfit the next day. She had a closet full of clothes, I can't believe she'd want to put on the same clothes she'd worn the night before.

True, after wearing in only a few hours it wouldn't have been as raunchy as if she'd worn it the entire day, but I know from just having gone through Christmas socializing that plenty can happen to make an outfit less then fresh in a few hours.

I don't know about others, but when I'm dressed in a long-sleeved shirt with a jacket type garment over it inside someone's house, I end up perspiring - especially when I'm talking and laughing and moving around, having a good time. That alone would have me not wanting to dress in the same clothes the next day, and add into that the atmosphere - were people smoking in the White's house during the party? I'm not a smoker, and when I realize I've been around smokers enough for the smell to have gotten on my clothes, I change those clothes. Patsy was a former smoker. Perhaps the smoke smell, if there was any, didn't bother her.

But flying to Michigan...being on a plane for more than an hour in an outfit that may smell of smoke or perspiration would be more than I could handle, not to mention I don't think it would be as comfortable as, say, jeans and sweatshirt. Patsy was also going to spending time with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart Long, someone she barely knew. I'd be surprised if Patsy was all set to wow the new beau in an outfit she'd had on the night before as well as on the flight up to Michigan. I just don't think it fits in with who her friends say she was - her own friends expressed disbelief that Patsy would get up and redress in the same outfit she'd worn the night before. it wasn't like she didn't have any other Christmas-y outfit she could have worn....

And then there's the fiber evidence. The fibers found in the paint tray, on the tape, and tied into the ligature knot were chemically and microscopically consistent with Patsy's jacket, which leads me to believe that she had that jacket on when she staged the scene, with the tape and tying the ligature around JB's neck. That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket? I've never staged a crime scene and killed a child, but I'm pretty sure I'd make myself comfortable and shed off the jacket before I rolled up my sleeves to do the dirty work. I sure as heck would not be standing there in the same outfit I'd had on all night when the police arrived.

So what's the real story in regards to the jacket and Patsy wearing it two days in a row?

Nuisanceposter,

How about if Patsy was dressed, ready to leave the house, and deposit JonBenet's body outdoors? JonBenet's death would still need some staging to deflect attention.


That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket?

Are the PDI people minded to think Patsy was fully dressed when she killed JonBenet?

How about JDI, and his staging was revised by Patsy?


.

[coloradokares]

Patsy proberly didnt put on her outfit until the evening before going to the whites and she got home at 10ish so she didnt wear it that long, doubt it was stinky.

I know i wear nice clothes on xmas day, usually new clothes ive recieved that morning as a present. It doesnt seem odd to me she would want to look nice on both xmas day and the 26th when meeting her future son-in-law, therefore wearing the same "good" clothes.
Charlie, Patsy was a very wealthy woman with clothes galore ok. She was a former contestant in the Miss America Contest. She had probably thousands of dollars of clothing ready for wearing at her disposal. I assure you she always looked fashion plate ready and played the part of a wealthy socialite woman to a T. Her makeup was freshly applied. Its only my opinion that it would defy logic to plan to wear previously worn clothes on a trip then change into whatever she had up there at Charlevoix to meet the new son in law. I am sure she had a perfect outfit at the ready. And would have presented herself and the family picture perfect. That was Patsy to which Boulder knew. I also want to note something many from Boulder noted as a changed habit of Patsy's her fondness for wearing the same outfit again and again and again after JonBenet died. Like the blue suit with the white trim. Patsy was not one to wear outfits out before. That was an observation more than a fact. That is only an opinion.

[Show Me]

Patsy spent more than a few hours in the clothes, not only attending the White's Christmas party she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

I'd say she wore the outfit at least 6 hours, the housekeeper claimed Patsy threw her clothes around, so she'd probably dropped them on a chair or floor.
Patsy wakes up, discovers her shower is broken and for some reason can't use any of the other three bathrooms in the house.

Well heck didn't take a shower why not wear the clothes from the night before....wayyyyy to much trouble to walk all the way to the closet and have to pick an outfit.

Maybe she received a ton of compliments and thought....'my future son in law must see me in the outfit! What an impression I'll make'.

IMO Patsy never changed her clothes that night and that is why the fibers are evidence.

Plus the police didn't get the outfit from Patsy for months and months....so who knows if blood was on the outfit?

[UKGuy]

Patsy spent more than a few hours in the clothes, not only attending the White's Christmas party she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

I'd say she wore the outfit at least 6 hours, the housekeeper claimed Patsy threw her clothes around, so she'd probably dropped them on a chair or floor.
Patsy wakes up, discovers her shower is broken and for some reason can't use any of the other three bathrooms in the house.

Well heck didn't take a shower why not wear the clothes from the night before....wayyyyy to much trouble to walk all the way to the closet and have to pick an outfit.

Maybe she received a ton of compliments and thought....'my future son in law must see me in the outfit! What an impression I'll make'.

IMO Patsy never changed her clothes that night and that is why the fibers are evidence.

Plus the police didn't get the outfit from Patsy for months and months....so who knows if blood was on the outfit?

Show Me,


she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.


Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.

[JMO8778]

Thanks Icetea....So there's a good chance Patsy put fresh underwear on underneath the clothes she wore yesterday.....yeah why bother to walk across the room and pick a new outfit out of the closet when you can reach down and pick yesterday's stinky clothes off the floor.

Guess Patsy thought the outfit wowed the christmas party folk and the outfit ought to impress her future son in law she was to meet later.....smell was not the issue.
LOL.
In DOI,she leads the reader to believe the clothes were close at hand,like on a chair nearby.She says she 'swings out of bed and promptly remembers her shower is broken'. (never mind they have plenty more that aren't!).Then she says, 'oh well, don't need one this morning'. (yea,lets just go smelly).So she reaches for her clothes and starts dressing.(she must have long arms since they were far away in the bathroom !)
No shower,yesterday's clothes,but she put on her makeup b/c her mom taught her to 'never leave the house without your makeup on'.Plus,she wants to impress Melinda's finace,who will be with them.
....something wrong with this pic????

[JMO8778]

You're welcome! I had been looking up something else from that interrogation when I happened to come across that tidbit. It's possible she didn't go to bed right away like she said and was up doing other things still dressed in those clothes. At least she says wore clean underwear the next day.


-TeaI've always thought it weird in DOI that JR makes a point of telling what all *he did b/f going to bed...but no mention of PR.He simply says she was already in bed when he got there.

[JMO8778]

Charlie, Patsy was a very wealthy woman with clothes galore ok. She was a former contestant in the Miss America Contest. She had probably thousands of dollars of clothing ready for wearing at her disposal. I assure you she always looked fashion plate ready and played the part of a wealthy socialite woman to a T. Her makeup was freshly applied. Its only my opinion that it would defy logic to plan to wear previously worn clothes on a trip then change into whatever she had up there at Charlevoix to meet the new son in law. I am sure she had a perfect outfit at the ready. And would have presented herself and the family picture perfect. That was Patsy to which Boulder knew. I also want to note something many from Boulder noted as a changed habit of Patsy's her fondness for wearing the same outfit again and again and again after JonBenet died. Like the blue suit with the white trim. Patsy was not one to wear outfits out before. That was an observation more than a fact. That is only an opinion.I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?

[JMO8778]

Show Me,



Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.IMO,I think that's what happened.It's the most logical explanation.Something happened after they returned home, yet b/f she had a chance to change.We know there was pineapple out and JB had some,so it seems they had a snack and PR didn't change bf that,and not afterwards either.

[JMO8778]

This is from the interrogation on June 23, 1998-



0018

1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first

2 thing you did along that route.

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there.

6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those

7 were clothes you had worn the night before?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a

11 lot.

12 TOM HANEY: Now did you intend to

13 wear those the rest of the day though or --

14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do, you know, my thinking was I

17 have my underwear and all that is in these

18 drawers here, so I put my underwear on, but I

19 put the black velvet pants on the and the red

20 sweater, red top, and then we have clothes up at

21 the lake, and I took a few things with me. You

22 know, it was just so early, I was just going to

23 throw on whatever I had up there. Just get in,

24 tumble into bed and when we awake early, you

25 know, kind of almost get ready up there. You

0019

1 know.
Maybe she was trying to account for fiber evidence on the bathtub? So maybe she took the clothes off to wash her face and reapply her makeup if she'd been crying,and since we know the 911 call came in rather late,(considering what their previous plans were),maybe she did put them down there,washed her face and reapplied her makeup,yet for lack of time...put the same clothes back on?(and or needed them to account for fiber evidence,later throwing herself on JB's body). JAT.

[Becba]

If I were getting up really early for a private plane ride, where no one is going to see me, I may just wash my face and plan to shower when I arrived. But I would want to be fresh and showered if I were meeting family like the Ramseys were. They awoke approximately 1 and 1/2 hrs before the plane was to take off. Enough time to shower and get the kids up. JonBenet had not had a shower at least the day before. You would think the children would have to be bathed before the plane trip, but with the close schedule there would not have been much time for that. So I guess they were all going to be unwashed except John. Strange that John was the only one to have showered. Makes me think he was washing off DNA that should not be on certain areas of his body.

[coloradokares]

I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?All things are possible.

[UKGuy]

Maybe she was trying to account for fiber evidence on the bathtub? So maybe she took the clothes off to wash her face and reapply her makeup if she'd been crying,and since we know the 911 call came in rather late,(considering what their previous plans were),maybe she did put them down there,washed her face and reapplied her makeup,yet for lack of time...put the same clothes back on?(and or needed them to account for fiber evidence,later throwing herself on JB's body). JAT.

JMO8778,


put the same clothes back on?(and or needed them to account for fiber evidence,later throwing herself on JB's body).


No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.

[IrishMist]

JMO8778,



No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.I've always thought that in their panic, it did not occur to her to change her clothes. I don't see the Ramsey's as great criminal masterminds. Just a couple of terrified people trying to hide an awful event. If the BPD weren't so inept, I don't think the R's would have gotten away with it at all.

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,



No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.
What I'm saying is,maybe there was fiber evidence found on the bathtub,so Patsy says that she put her clothes there?

[Nuisanceposter]

I've always thought that in their panic, it did not occur to her to change her clothes. I don't see the Ramsey's as great criminal masterminds. Just a couple of terrified people trying to hide an awful event. If the BPD weren't so inept, I don't think the R's would have gotten away with it at all.I agree. I think clothes were forgotten along with the pineapple and the flashlight...except JR, who took a shower - why him and not Patsy? Did she run out of time, maybe writing that ridiculous RN?

Who puts their clothes in the bathtub? Is it just me, or is that really odd? The tub is the last place I'd leave clothes - I leave my clothes on a chair, laid over the seat or the back. The bathtub, unless just scrubbed, would have soap residue or something in it - and even still if it had just been scrubbed. And notice she said:

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

Here is again is the use of the word "probably," just like in John Ramsey's description of climbing in the window. How does "probably" come into it? Where the clothes in the bathtub or not? Patsy remembers getting up and changing her underwear, saying that's

"15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do"

I'm sorry, this whole story of getting up and "probably" digging her clothes out of the bathtub (?) sounds completely weird and unlikely.

[ANGRYWOLF]

I understand things have been heated at various boards ..for years...people who frankly hated Patsy and were consummed with their belief she was guilty...and those people have made things difficult for those of us who believe otherwise. I was hoping Karr was guilty...so I could tell people I knew it..I knew Pasy was innocent..smile. there are some in LE who believe Karr received information from Jon Benet's killer..That explains how he knows so much.
Of course you hear from LE their version of events...which persuades some people the Ramseys were uncooperative and such. I think people who believe that should find themselves falsely accused of murder and see how they react.Walk a mile in the accused shoes.
I think it comes down as to whether the dna is legitimate.Is from the killer..or an accomplice.If it is there will be a match through codis some day .:behindbar

[JMO8778]

That explains how he knows so much. He knows what he was told and heard,that's it.

Of course you hear from LE their version of events...which persuades some people the Ramseys were uncooperative and such. I think people who believe that should find themselves falsely accused of murder and see how they react.Walk a mile in the accused shoes.
I think the White's,Santa Bill,jeff merrick and LHP are among those who's innocent shoes we should walk in.


I think it comes down as to whether the dna is legitimate.Is from the killer..or an accomplice.If it is there will be a match through codis some day .Even so,the person would still have to be proved to be in Boulder at that time;it would still only be a partial match.
I have a feeling future DNA technology is going to blow this case out of the water..things like the actual age of the dna,and maybe more, are going to be proved.Then what are the R's and team going to have to have left to go on?
I think the proof is in the pudding..I think we're still going to be here 30+ yrs from now,talking about how this case was unsolved...and the rest will still be looking for that elusive 'intruder'.

[UKGuy]

I agree. I think clothes were forgotten along with the pineapple and the flashlight...except JR, who took a shower - why him and not Patsy? Did she run out of time, maybe writing that ridiculous RN?

Who puts their clothes in the bathtub? Is it just me, or is that really odd? The tub is the last place I'd leave clothes - I leave my clothes on a chair, laid over the seat or the back. The bathtub, unless just scrubbed, would have soap residue or something in it - and even still if it had just been scrubbed. And notice she said:

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

Here is again is the use of the word "probably," just like in John Ramsey's description of climbing in the window. How does "probably" come into it? Where the clothes in the bathtub or not? Patsy remembers getting up and changing her underwear, saying that's

"15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do"

I'm sorry, this whole story of getting up and "probably" digging her clothes out of the bathtub (?) sounds completely weird and unlikely.

Nuisanceposter,

Yes why the bathtub? Running the taps and wiping with a cloth or using a shower head would soon clean it up? I cannot see why Patsy has to link her clothes to the bathtub, her fibers may have arrived there, airborne, well that would be the courtroom defense.

Patsy is either using her clothes to hide something else or intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors.

If its correct to assume that John wiped JonBenet down with his Iraeli woolen shirt, then possibly John was more contaminated with forensic evidence than Patsy, maybe even blood-stained?

Could it be John needed the shower and clean clothes because he was the one that killed JonBenet and Patsy revised the staging because they could not dump JonBenet outdoors, even though she was wrapped in blankets ready to go?


.

[UKGuy]

What I'm saying is,maybe there was fiber evidence found on the bathtub,so Patsy says that she put her clothes there?

JMO8778,

How would Patsy know that? Just like why would she know there was fiber evidence down in the wine-cellar?

If Patsy was as calculating as we are assuming, then wearing the same outfit again can only be to avoid contaminating part of the crime-scene with fibers from a clean outfit?

That is she knew prior to staging the wine-cellar crime scene that she should be wearing it, or/and she killed JonBenet fully dressed in the same outfit she wore to the White's.


.

[Show Me]

I understand things have been heated at various boards ..for years...people who frankly hated Patsy and were consummed with their belief she was guilty...and those people have made things difficult for those of us who believe otherwise. I was hoping Karr was guilty...so I could tell people I knew it..I knew Pasy was innocent..smile. there are some in LE who believe Karr received information from Jon Benet's killer..That explains how he knows so much.
Of course you hear from LE their version of events...which persuades some people the Ramseys were uncooperative and such. I think people who believe that should find themselves falsely accused of murder and see how they react.Walk a mile in the accused shoes.
I think it comes down as to whether the dna is legitimate.Is from the killer..or an accomplice.If it is there will be a match through codis some day .:behindbar

Yeah someday maybe they might match the degraded dna with someone. I can't understand how a killer can only leave degraded dna....you'd think with dna being small he'd shed at least a whole dna somewhere.

Karr didn't even know the details of how JonBenet was murdered Tracey had to keep prompting Karr in the emails.

Karr claimed he picked JonBenet up from school on Christmas eve.

I've followed this case from day one and reading DOI, the Ramsey book, which made my mind up....Patsy had guilty knowledge and participated in the murder writing the ransom note.

John is on a publicity campaign and people who haven't followed this case are swallowing his spin hook, line and sinker.....for now.

[JMO8778]

Nuisanceposter,

Yes why the bathtub? Running the taps and wiping with a cloth or using a shower head would soon clean it up? I cannot see why Patsy has to link her clothes to the bathtub, her fibers may have arrived there, airborne, well that would be the courtroom defense.

Patsy is either using her clothes to hide something else or intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors.

If its correct to assume that John wiped JonBenet down with his Iraeli woolen shirt, then possibly John was more contaminated with forensic evidence than Patsy, maybe even blood-stained?

Could it be John needed the shower and clean clothes because he was the one that killed JonBenet and Patsy revised the staging because they could not dump JonBenet outdoors, even though she was wrapped in blankets ready to go?


.Could be,or she didn't change b/c she didn't think to? She was busy revising the note while JR showered?It does seem they were running out of time,since the 911 call came in rather late,per their previous plans to fly out of state.Do we know all there is to know about fiber evidence,or is something possibly being held back from the public?
I've always wondered if the wine cellar or basement(or even the upper floors) were sprayed with luminol to ck for any blood wiped away(since there was blood found wiped away on JB?)
If JR did it,then I can't understand why on earth she would cover for him.

[Ames]

Ames I am so glad you are here. I am so happy to see you here. :p
Hey there!! I thought that was you, but wasn't sure. I wanted to say something to you earler, but thought that it could be someone using the same screen name. I am happy to be here...and happy that I know a couple of the posters!!! Seems to be not alot of bashing...if any...going on, on this board. What a refreshing change of pace!!!

[Ames]

It took months for the cops to get the clothes from Patsy for testing, had to go through the lawyers, Ramseys didn't volunteer to hand the clothes over.....she was fond of that outfit!
LOL...extremely fond of it! She didn't want to part with it, did she? Hmmmm....I wonder why an "innocent" person wouldn't want to just hand their clothes over?

[Ames]

Dont get me wrong i think the ramseys are guilty of murdering JonBenet, but i dont think the fact that Patsy wore the same clothes is indicative of guilt, although waiting months to hand them over to LE is suspicious.
Yep...it SURE is!! Man, I am SO happy to be on this board with all of the poster's that think that the Ramsey's (or A Ramsey) is GUILTY! I am in good company! I just switched over from the courttv boards, and there are so many posters on there that believe that an intruder did it (IDI)...that its ridiculous.

[Ames]

Nobody has ever said that Patsy stank "to high heaven". Nor do I think she'd be "stinking to high heaven" after wearing an outfit for only a few hours at a social get together in mid winter. Maybe if she'd been moving furniture in a fish factory during a heat wave.

Patsy's Christmas outfit consisted of a red and black fleecy seasonal-styled "blazer" and a pair of black velvet trousers. She wore them for a few hours of socialising and decided to put them on again the following day. I honestly cannot see the problem with this - especially since it was a "Christmas" outfit - i.e. one which she might only choose to wear during 2/3 festive days of the year.

The theory that her wearing the same outfit meant she hadn't been to bed is non-sensical for one big reason. If Patsy had come home from the Whites, murdered her daughter, staged the crime scene and then called the police - all whilst wearing the same outfit...... there would have been a TON of forensic evidence on that outfit. Patsy had no way of knowing that the police wouldn't have immediately arrested her and John and taken their clothing for testing.

If Patsy had been up all night committing murder and covering it up, the most important part of the cover up would have been to change or get rid of her clothing.

OTOH, she claimed she hadn't had a shower AND that she had decided to wear the same clothes again. It's possible that was a very CLEVER part of the staging if she had indeed had a shower and laundered the clothes that she had worn to commit the crime.
Good point! I had a thought (everybody stand back...LOL)....I was thinking that maybe, just maybe...she was wearing those clothes (that she had on at the Whites) AT FIRST, maybe during some of the staging, because she wasn't thinking about fibers at the moment. She could have changed, mid-stream, into some old clothes, after realizing that fibers could be linked back to her. And THEN...just in CASE JB's body did happen to get a few fibers from the outfit that she had on at the White's (during the staging).....she decided to put that outfit back on, to be able to explain the fibers away. Its just a thought..

[Ames]

Ames, I'm really glad to see you here, too. :)
:blushing: Thanks...I feel so warm and fuzzy!!! I am so happy to be here...geez...what took me so long to find this board??

[Ames]

We don't know about the underwear - and will likely never know. We know she says she didn't have a shower because her shower was broken, but we don't know when she last had a shower or where she last had a shower or why she didn't simply use one of the many other showers or baths in the house.
IMO...she didn't take a shower, because she was way to busy writing a bogus three page ransom letter...AND staging a coverup. Doesn't leave much time for a shower...IMO.

[Ames]

Personally, I can't see wearing the same outfit the next day. She had a closet full of clothes, I can't believe she'd want to put on the same clothes she'd worn the night before.

True, after wearing in only a few hours it wouldn't have been as raunchy as if she'd worn it the entire day, but I know from just having gone through Christmas socializing that plenty can happen to make an outfit less then fresh in a few hours.

I don't know about others, but when I'm dressed in a long-sleeved shirt with a jacket type garment over it inside someone's house, I end up perspiring - especially when I'm talking and laughing and moving around, having a good time. That alone would have me not wanting to dress in the same clothes the next day, and add into that the atmosphere - were people smoking in the White's house during the party? I'm not a smoker, and when I realize I've been around smokers enough for the smell to have gotten on my clothes, I change those clothes. Patsy was a former smoker. Perhaps the smoke smell, if there was any, didn't bother her.

But flying to Michigan...being on a plane for more than an hour in an outfit that may smell of smoke or perspiration would be more than I could handle, not to mention I don't think it would be as comfortable as, say, jeans and sweatshirt. Patsy was also going to spending time with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart Long, someone she barely knew. I'd be surprised if Patsy was all set to wow the new beau in an outfit she'd had on the night before as well as on the flight up to Michigan. I just don't think it fits in with who her friends say she was - her own friends expressed disbelief that Patsy would get up and redress in the same outfit she'd worn the night before. it wasn't like she didn't have any other Christmas-y outfit she could have worn....

And then there's the fiber evidence. The fibers found in the paint tray, on the tape, and tied into the ligature knot were chemically and microscopically consistent with Patsy's jacket, which leads me to believe that she had that jacket on when she staged the scene, with the tape and tying the ligature around JB's neck. That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket? I've never staged a crime scene and killed a child, but I'm pretty sure I'd make myself comfortable and shed off the jacket before I rolled up my sleeves to do the dirty work. I sure as heck would not be standing there in the same outfit I'd had on all night when the police arrived.

So what's the real story in regards to the jacket and Patsy wearing it two days in a row?
I have never staged a crime scene and killed a child, either....BUT.. I believe that I would be too caught up in the moment, and way to panicked...to remember to take my jacket off. I think that all of this happened pretty quickly, and in the heat of the moment...Patsy simply forgot to remove her jacket. (IMO)

[Ames]

Charlie, Patsy was a very wealthy woman with clothes galore ok. She was a former contestant in the Miss America Contest. She had probably thousands of dollars of clothing ready for wearing at her disposal. I assure you she always looked fashion plate ready and played the part of a wealthy socialite woman to a T. Her makeup was freshly applied. Its only my opinion that it would defy logic to plan to wear previously worn clothes on a trip then change into whatever she had up there at Charlevoix to meet the new son in law. I am sure she had a perfect outfit at the ready. And would have presented herself and the family picture perfect. That was Patsy to which Boulder knew. I also want to note something many from Boulder noted as a changed habit of Patsy's her fondness for wearing the same outfit again and again and again after JonBenet died. Like the blue suit with the white trim. Patsy was not one to wear outfits out before. That was an observation more than a fact. That is only an opinion.
IMO...I agree with you. I am quite positive that Patsy had a closet FULL of nice clothes. Why would she want to wear the same thing, two days in a row...no matter HOW NICE the outfit was?

[Ames]

Patsy spent more than a few hours in the clothes, not only attending the White's Christmas party she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

I'd say she wore the outfit at least 6 hours, the housekeeper claimed Patsy threw her clothes around, so she'd probably dropped them on a chair or floor.
Patsy wakes up, discovers her shower is broken and for some reason can't use any of the other three bathrooms in the house.

Well heck didn't take a shower why not wear the clothes from the night before....wayyyyy to much trouble to walk all the way to the closet and have to pick an outfit.

Maybe she received a ton of compliments and thought....'my future son in law must see me in the outfit! What an impression I'll make'.

IMO Patsy never changed her clothes that night and that is why the fibers are evidence.

Plus the police didn't get the outfit from Patsy for months and months....so who knows if blood was on the outfit?
I really enjoy your posts...you are SOOO funny! I agree with you...if she can't use one of the three other bathrooms in the house, to take a shower, geez louise...at LEAST put on a change of clothes!! If only for the sake of those around her....seriously, she would have had to have been pretty doggone stinky. A thought just occured to me, that maybe when the investigators arrived, she thought that she MUST be pretty stinky, from all of that ransom note writing, and staged coverup stuff, so she told them that she didn't take a shower....coupled with the fact that she was wearing the same outfit as the day before. THUS...covering her butt on the fiber evidence, and her stinkiness. Does this make sense??

[Ames]

Show Me,



Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.
My opinion....she never went to bed that night, therefore, she never changed into any jammies.

[Ames]

I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?
Yeppers...I have often wondered that too.

[Ames]

LOL.
In DOI,she leads the reader to believe the clothes were close at hand,like on a chair nearby.She says she 'swings out of bed and promptly remembers her shower is broken'. (never mind they have plenty more that aren't!).Then she says, 'oh well, don't need one this morning'. (yea,lets just go smelly).So she reaches for her clothes and starts dressing.(she must have long arms since they were far away in the bathroom !)
No shower,yesterday's clothes,but she put on her makeup b/c her mom taught her to 'never leave the house without your makeup on'.Plus,she wants to impress Melinda's finace,who will be with them.
....something wrong with this pic????
Sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me. By the way...I am originally from SOUTH Carolina!! (I see that you are in NC).

[Ames]

JMO8778,



No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.
No, she wouldn't have known WHO would have found JB, or what time the body was going to be found. BUT she would have known that SOMEBODY was going to find JB's body, and when they did, she was going to fling herself on her (and as stated in one of her interviews...I will try and find the link...she DID explain that, saying that OF COURSE her clothes fibers were on JB, because she had thrown herself on the body! Which, IMO...is what she had every intention of doing right from the start..to explain away those pesky fibers).

[Ames]

Just wanted to apologize for my posts taking up almost a whole page. I have just been catching up!!! ;)

[JMO8778]

I have never staged a crime scene and killed a child, either....BUT.. I believe that I would be too caught up in the moment, and way to panicked...to remember to take my jacket off. I think that all of this happened pretty quickly, and in the heat of the moment...Patsy simply forgot to remove her jacket. (IMO)Yes,I think ppl don't realize the adrenaline rush to the brain and what it does to their train of thought,they tend to get so focused on one thing, that they forget about everything else.
So it was with Fleet White as well ...he went to dial 911 after JB was found..he was in such a panic that he wasn't thinking clearly.That's one reason why I don't think he had a darn thing to do with it...his reaction was that of sheer panic and surprise.

[JMO8778]

Sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me. By the way...I am originally from SOUTH Carolina!! (I see that you are in NC).Hi ! And welcome ..I'm so jealous...I LOVE SC,esp. myrtle beach,it's my fav vacation spot! And I got married in Dillon, SC. :)

[UKGuy]

No, she wouldn't have known WHO would have found JB, or what time the body was going to be found. BUT she would have known that SOMEBODY was going to find JB's body, and when they did, she was going to fling herself on her (and as stated in one of her interviews...I will try and find the link...she DID explain that, saying that OF COURSE her clothes fibers were on JB, because she had thrown herself on the body! Which, IMO...is what she had every intention of doing right from the start..to explain away those pesky fibers).

Ames,

The plan was for someone other than a Ramsey to discover JonBenet's corpse. John after realizing this may not happen and ruin the effects of any prior staging at a later time, decided to discover JonBenet's corpse.

If as planned, law enforcement had discovered JonBenet's corpse, she would have been left in-place, and the basement cordoned off. All three Ramsey's would have been detained for questioning!

There is absolutely no way Patsy could have planned in advance to fling herself upon JonBenet, she never knew who would discover JonBenet or when, she was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs!

imo Patsy was dressed to leave the house, probably by car, with the intention of dumping JonBenet, this is consistent with JonBenet being wrapped in blankets, and the writing of the ransom note, imo a revision to a prior staging.




.

[UKGuy]

Yes,I think ppl don't realize the adrenaline rush to the brain and what it does to their train of thought,they tend to get so focused on one thing, that they forget about everything else.
So it was with Fleet White as well ...he went to dial 911 after JB was found..he was in such a panic that he wasn't thinking clearly.That's one reason why I don't think he had a darn thing to do with it...his reaction was that of sheer panic and surprise.

JMO8778,

I guess Fleet White recognized some aspect of JonBenet's staging that was completely out of place, he saw it for what it was, so wanted to dial 911. One day soon I think Fleet White will go public with what he knows, since he may recognize deferred justice, is of no consequence to a retired millionaire.


.

[UKGuy]

Could be,or she didn't change b/c she didn't think to? She was busy revising the note while JR showered?It does seem they were running out of time,since the 911 call came in rather late,per their previous plans to fly out of state.Do we know all there is to know about fiber evidence,or is something possibly being held back from the public?
I've always wondered if the wine cellar or basement(or even the upper floors) were sprayed with luminol to ck for any blood wiped away(since there was blood found wiped away on JB?)
If JR did it,then I can't understand why on earth she would cover for him.

JMO8778,

The motive for killing JonBenet may be sexual, and Patsy may have been party to this, either passively or actively e.g. pageants etc. John may have told Patsy if I am convicted then so will you!

I have always considered the blankets to be an important piece of forensic evidence, partially because they should contain trace fibers from whomever deposited JonBenet into the wine-cellar, current speculation favors fibers from Patsy, and this evidence may be being held back?

imo there are three possibilities for WDI, either BDI, John and Patsy Did It, or all three conspired together.

The first option BDI explains why the parents may cover for Burke. The second is the most likely, and the last a variant on the second.

If PDI without John knowing then he would be free to fake shock and suggest a sexually motivated intruder assault to mask any prior abuse, but proposed to Patsy as a Get Out Of Jail card, after a successful staging he does not need to stand by Patsy, he could even plea bargain his way out, hence all the separate legal representation.

The last option suggests a fully dysfunctional family life with JonBenet regularly being sexually abused, curiously nobody has asked was Burke being abused, he also wet the bed, had the same mother and father, and lived in the same house?


.

[Show Me]

A thought just occured to me, that maybe when the investigators arrived, she thought that she MUST be pretty stinky, from all of that ransom note writing, and staged coverup stuff, so she told them that she didn't take a shower....coupled with the fact that she was wearing the same outfit as the day before. THUS...covering her butt on the fiber evidence, and her stinkiness. Does this make sense??

Bingo Ames....makes sense to me! Especially when Thomas found out she was wearing the same outfit that morning....how to explain it.

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

I guess Fleet White recognized some aspect of JonBenet's staging that was completely out of place, he saw it for what it was, so wanted to dial 911. One day soon I think Fleet White will go public with what he knows, since he may recognize deferred justice, is of no consequence to a retired millionaire.


.I always thought it was from the shock of finding JB.But anyway,I wonder if FW will talk if JR passes away bf he does?But then again,there would be BR to think about,and he may want to spare his feelings.

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

The motive for killing JonBenet may be sexual, and Patsy may have been party to this, either passively or actively e.g. pageants etc. John may have told Patsy if I am convicted then so will you!

I have always considered the blankets to be an important piece of forensic evidence, partially because they should contain trace fibers from whomever deposited JonBenet into the wine-cellar, current speculation favors fibers from Patsy, and this evidence may be being held back?

imo there are three possibilities for WDI, either BDI, John and Patsy Did It, or all three conspired together.

The first option BDI explains why the parents may cover for Burke. The second is the most likely, and the last a variant on the second.

If PDI without John knowing then he would be free to fake shock and suggest a sexually motivated intruder assault to mask any prior abuse, but proposed to Patsy as a Get Out Of Jail card, after a successful staging he does not need to stand by Patsy, he could even plea bargain his way out, hence all the separate legal representation.

The last option suggests a fully dysfunctional family life with JonBenet regularly being sexually abused, curiously nobody has asked was Burke being abused, he also wet the bed, had the same mother and father, and lived in the same house?


.The most logical explanation that fits is PR did it;she struck out at JB when she found JR molesting her.Then there is a reason for both of them covering for the other.Or maybe they got into an argument over something else,and PR struck out at JB.If JR did it,I don't know why PR wouldnt be angry enough to turn him in.PR didn't seem to be angry at JR tho,unless she kept quiet out of fear.
Good q about BR.I think if he had been removed from the home,one of them would have started talking pretty fast.

[Jayelles]

The most logical explanation that fits is PR did it;she struck out at JB when she found JR molesting her.Then there is a reason for both of them covering for the other.Or maybe they got into an argument over something else,and PR struck out at JB.If JR did it,I don't know why PR wouldnt be angry enough to turn him in.PR didn't seem to be angry at JR tho,unless she kept quiet out of fear.
Good q about BR.I think if he had been removed from the home,one of them would have started talking pretty fast.
I disagree. I think the most illogical explanation is that Patsy did it. I think JonBenet's murderer hated her with a passion.

However, I do blame John Ramsey for the Ramsey's lack of co-operation. I think Patsy would have done whatever was necessary. We have no record of Patsy refusing anything - only John. I believe we also only have John's word that his lawyers advised him to refuse to speak with police. I don't recall that his lawyers ever made any statements about that. John Ramsey has a history of blaming others for his mistakes. That is a personal trait I abhor.

[Show Me]

Show Me,



Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.

I think Patsy never changed her clothes and she was up all night.

[Show Me]

LOL...extremely fond of it! She didn't want to part with it, did she? Hmmmm....I wonder why an "innocent" person wouldn't want to just hand their clothes over?

Priorities Ames...priorities....when you look that good!

Poor Ramseys were bugged to death by the cops wanting to solve the murder of their child....cops wanted phone records, clothing....you'd think the cops can solve a murder without inconviencing the Ramseys!

Maybe John was trying to get the most work out of all those expensive lawyers he hired....never understood the need for the ex wife to have one too, but hey John's generous.

[julianne]

Okay, someone clear this up for me, and I apologize if it has already been mentioned...

I seem to remember that yes, Patsy didn't turn over her clothes until after a year or so after the murder, but that she wasn't ASKED or requested to turn those over until over a year after the murder. In other words, she turned them over as soon as she was asked, but wasn't asked for over a year.

Right? Wrong?

[Ames]

Ames,

The plan was for someone other than a Ramsey to discover JonBenet's corpse. John after realizing this may not happen and ruin the effects of any prior staging at a later time, decided to discover JonBenet's corpse.

If as planned, law enforcement had discovered JonBenet's corpse, she would have been left in-place, and the basement cordoned off. All three Ramsey's would have been detained for questioning!

There is absolutely no way Patsy could have planned in advance to fling herself upon JonBenet, she never knew who would discover JonBenet or when, she was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs!

imo Patsy was dressed to leave the house, probably by car, with the intention of dumping JonBenet, this is consistent with JonBenet being wrapped in blankets, and the writing of the ransom note, imo a revision to a prior staging.




.
Yes, she could have been planning to dump the body...that is a thought. But, I still think that in her mind, that whenever JB's body was "discovered", and it didn't matter by who, she had planned, at some point....to fling herself on her and to say..."Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead...please raise my baby". She said something like that, if not word for word. I am sure that she rehearsed that little speech too. (IMO)

[Ames]

I think Patsy never changed her clothes and she was up all night.
So do I!!

[Ames]

Priorities Ames...priorities....when you look that good!

Poor Ramseys were bugged to death by the cops wanting to solve the murder of their child....cops wanted phone records, clothing....you'd think the cops can solve a murder without inconviencing the Ramseys!

Maybe John was trying to get the most work out of all those expensive lawyers he hired....never understood the need for the ex wife to have one too, but hey John's generous.
HA...:eek: yes, how DARE those darn investigators ask for the clothing that the Ramsey's wore the night their daughter was murdered! They just weren't very cooperative, now were they??

[JMO8778]

Yes, she could have been planning to dump the body...that is a thought. But, I still think that in her mind, that whenever JB's body was "discovered", and it didn't matter by who, she had planned, at some point....to fling herself on her and to say..."Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead...please raise my baby". She said something like that, if not word for word. I am sure that she rehearsed that little speech too. (IMO)It sure sounds rehearsed.
I believe if PR hadn't already known JB was dead,she would have been clinging to her body,to the point of someone having to pry her off.I also think she and JR both would have accompanied her body to the morgue,and if it was true that she 'couldn't walk' I beleive she would have had someone put her in a wheelchair and push her over there! Perhaps she would have had her sisters and other family or friends come along with her.Her behavior points twds guilt,not innocence.No script needed.Red flags were definately raised.And that was just the beginning.

[UKGuy]

Yes, she could have been planning to dump the body...that is a thought. But, I still think that in her mind, that whenever JB's body was "discovered", and it didn't matter by who, she had planned, at some point....to fling herself on her and to say..."Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead...please raise my baby". She said something like that, if not word for word. I am sure that she rehearsed that little speech too. (IMO)

Ames,

Patsy may never have had the opportunity to fling herself upon JonBenet. JonBenet's corpse was downstairs in the basement and Patsy was upstairs.

It would actually have been more to the Ramsey's advantage if it had been Patsy that discovered JonBenet and carried her upstairs etc.

imo if Patsy was fully dressed when JonBenet was killed then this makes the Toilet Rage theory even less credible, since there is enough forensic evidence to suggest JonBenet never went to bed and was awake enough to enjoy a pineapple snack.

So was Patsy fully dressed when JonBenet was killed?


If yes does it follow that JonBenet would have been fully dressed? I suspect that the answer to this is yes too, since she was found wearing her white gap-top, but her bottom half had been changed. Its possible she was left in her gap-top, because rigor-mortis prevented her being redressed in the barbie-gown found next to her corpse in the wine-cellar?

So you can just about discern a revised staging taking place down in the basement. She was to have her day-clothes removed and replaced with a barbie-nightgown.

If JonBenet was wiped down upstairs, then redressed in those size-12's, and later downstairs in the basement someone sexually assaulted her, e.g. the same person who garroted her, since there was a transfer of cellulose to JonBenet's vagina, and if there were blood stains on her size-12 underwear with no corresponding stain on her genitalia, does this mean she was also sexually assaulted upstairs prior to being relocated down to the basement?

Urine does not appear to be the motive for wiping JonBenet down, since her size-12 underwear and longjohns were soaked through with urine. So was it some combination of semen and blood that was wiped off JonBenet's body, later to be masked by the wine-cellar assault?

I think JonBenet was to have been dumped away from the house, dressed in her barbie-gown, apparently garroted and sexually assaulted.


.

[Nehemiah]

The last option suggests a fully dysfunctional family life with JonBenet regularly being sexually abused, curiously nobody has asked was Burke being abused, he also wet the bed, had the same mother and father, and lived in the same house?

Yes, Children's Services did "investigate".

[UKGuy]

Yes, Children's Services did "investigate".

Nehemiah,

Thanks for the information, I guess he denied any innapropriate behaviour tok place?



.

[lannie]

Yes, Children's Services did "investigate".& when asked he took a game board & put it over his head, he told them he had secerts he could not tell .

[IrishMist]

& when asked he took a game board & put it over his head, he told them he had secerts he could not tell .I think this sounds like urban legend. Only because a Child's Services counsellor would not let this comment slide without further exploration.

Is there somewhere I can read about this for myself?

[Jayelles]

I think this sounds like urban legend. Only because a Child's Services counsellor would not let this comment slide without further exploration.

Is there somewhere I can read about this for myself?
PMPT paperback p 137

As they played games, Bernhard asked Burke how they all got along in the family. Delicately she touched on the tpics of sexual abuse and child abuse. He didn't respond as a molested chld might. When they talked about secrets, Burke said pointedly that if you told someone a secret, it was no longer a secret. He didn't seem to be holding anything back and appeared to be dealing with theabsence of his sister in the expected way. There were several breaks during the two-hour interview and the detectives took the opportunity to suggest additional topics to the psychologist.

The results were inconclusive. Burke gave the police little informtion about the night of JonBenet's death that they did not already have. And when they screened the videotape, it was hard to tell if Burke might be hiding anything.

[IrishMist]

PMPT paperback p 137Thanks, Jayelles, that sounds a little closer to what I remembered.

[ANGRYWOLF]

about this case..so may accusations...people who were on the periphery of the case...saying this happened or this was said or done..and people ..well some people..just want to accept those claims as true without doing any fact checking...It's rather sad.

[IrishMist]

about this case..so may accusations...people who were on the periphery of the case...saying this happened or this was said or done..and people ..well some people..just want to accept those claims as true without doing any fact checking...It's rather sad.Does happen alot in this case. Seems there are so many details, and it happened so long ago, sometimes it's hard to keep it all straight. I do agree that often something is repeated so many times that it becomes "fact." This happened a lot right after the JMK thing. Frustrated the heck out of me!

[SuperDave]

How about if Patsy was dressed, ready to leave the house, and deposit JonBenet's body outdoors? JonBenet's death would still need some staging to deflect attention.

You beat me to it!

I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?

I wouldn't doubt it, especially since it was pristine after supposedly panicking upon finding the note...

He knows what he was told and heard,that's it.

Yeah someday maybe they might match the degraded dna with someone. I can't understand how a killer can only leave degraded dna....you'd think with dna being small he'd shed at least a whole dna somewhere.

Karr didn't even know the details of how JonBenet was murdered Tracey had to keep prompting Karr in the emails.

Karr claimed he picked JonBenet up from school on Christmas eve.

A fraud is a fraud.

Is anyone else insulted by the Ramseys acting like victims? Upsets me greatly.

[Ames]

Ames,

Patsy may never have had the opportunity to fling herself upon JonBenet. JonBenet's corpse was downstairs in the basement and Patsy was upstairs.




It doesn't matter if Patsy was upstairs, downstairs or on the roof :), she knew that JonBenet's body was going to have to be removed from the basement sooner or later....it couldn't stay there in the basement forever, and when it was, she had planned to fling herself on the body. IMO

[Ames]

It sure sounds rehearsed.
I believe if PR hadn't already known JB was dead,she would have been clinging to her body,to the point of someone having to pry her off.I also think she and JR both would have accompanied her body to the morgue,and if it was true that she 'couldn't walk' I beleive she would have had someone put her in a wheelchair and push her over there! Perhaps she would have had her sisters and other family or friends come along with her.Her behavior points twds guilt,not innocence.No script needed.Red flags were definately raised.And that was just the beginning.
Oh my gosh, I totally agree with you. I couldn't believe that they actually left the house with JB's body still inside! If that was my child, they would for certain, have had to pry me away from her. I had never even thought about that before...but, that just adds another item to my list of why I think that the Ramsey's did it (I believe that Patsy did it, with John helping to stage the scene).

[graybar hotel]

So, if Patsy never had the same outfit on two days in a row and was very careful how she dressed, we can assume she has been in misery wearing the same clothing for the last ten years.

I know from personal experience with my mother wearing clothes twice in a row or in front of the same group twice would be eternal hell. It could be considered a kind of karma for Patsy to have to live with and think about when she was wearing anything for the second day.

:laugh: I don't feel the least bit sorry for her.

[Show Me]

Oh my gosh, I totally agree with you. I couldn't believe that they actually left the house with JB's body still inside! If that was my child, they would for certain, have had to pry me away from her. I had never even thought about that before...but, that just adds another item to my list of why I think that the Ramsey's did it (I believe that Patsy did it, with John helping to stage the scene).

And with a monitoring kidnapping team in town...John had no problems with Burke leaving the house, where the cops were, and going off to the Whites.
No way I'd leave my other child out of my sight.

[Ames]

And with a monitoring kidnapping team in town...John had no problems with Burke leaving the house, where the cops were, and going off to the Whites.
No way I'd leave my other child out of my sight.
Me either!! There are so many red flags that crop up with the Ramseys....I don't know why they killed their daughter...but, in my heart....I know that they did.

[SuperDave]

Not just that. Remember: they were "burglarized" in 2000. John said he left the door unlocked when he left. Would YOU leave the house unsecured if your kid had been killed under your nose?!

[Ames]

Not just that. Remember: they were "burglarized" in 2000. John said he left the door unlocked when he left. Would YOU leave the house unsecured if your kid had been killed under your nose?!Nopey, nope, nope....I sure wouldn't. That's just CRAZY!! He knew there had been NO intruder that killed his baby...thats why he thought nothing about leaving a door unlocked in 2000 (and that was ONLY FOUR years after JB had supposedly been killed by the ghost intruder!!!). It may have been unintentional...but whatever the case may be...the door was STILL unlocked.

[Solace]

Not just that. Remember: they were "burglarized" in 2000. John said he left the door unlocked when he left. Would YOU leave the house unsecured if your kid had been killed under your nose?!Never. I live in the Village in NYC and noticed that someone had been coming into the apartments by the roof. I was always pretty careful of locking my door, but sometimes when I would go to the laundry room, I would leave it open. I never do anymore, Never.

If someone had been killed in my house, my daughter, I would never ever leave it unlocked, just no, never.

But don't you just love the part where John is being asked by the sleezoid Tracey if he killed his daughter and he shakes his head yes while answering. Then catches himself and says I regret, I regret...

Would you ever shake your head yes if someone asked you if you killed your daughter. I know John, we are supposed to believe you are shaking your head yes, because you know the question that is coming, but really you are shaking your head yes, because you either did or helped. My opinion.

[Ames]

But don't you just love the part where John is being asked by the sleezoid Tracey if he killed his daughter and he shakes his head yes while answering. Then catches himself and says I regret, I regret...


Whoa...really? I missed that interview!!! I remember in one televised interview, I can't remember who the interviewer was though, John and Patsy were asked that question (Did you kill your daughter?), and they both just sat there for a LONG time without answering, and then FINALLY, Patsy, was looking down, and shaking her head and then she said..."NO". And then John said something else, that I cannot remember. It seems like it had nothing to do with the question though, something like he was tired of answering that question...or something like that. They showed that interview again a few weeks ago, on the "48 Hours" special.

[icedtea4me]

That was from The Ramseys vs. The Media doc from August 1998.


-Tea

[Ames]

That was from The Ramseys vs. The Media doc from August 1998.


-Tea
Thank you!

[Nuisanceposter]

And with a monitoring kidnapping team in town...John had no problems with Burke leaving the house, where the cops were, and going off to the Whites.
No way I'd leave my other child out of my sight.This is the one thing that really gets me.

If I woke up to find my youngest child gone and a ransom note telling me the kidnapper is watching my house and will kill her (behead her, no less) if I so much as speak to a stray dog, there is absolutely no way possible that any of my other children would be leaving my presence.

They not only called 911 and failed to mention the threat to their daughter's life...they called over four other people, despite the death threats...and then felt so comfortable with the situation that they sent their other child out of the house - not knowing who the kidnapper is, or where he is, or if he'll be able to kidnap Burke as well as JonBenet and kill one or both of them.

There is no way to mistake or misinterpret the threat in the RN. They knew their daughter's life was being threatened. They knew the kidnapper was watching their house. They didn't even request a police escort.

Either they knew there was no threat to JonBenet's and/or Burke's lives, or they don't care if either or both of their children are killed.

And is absolutely no way I would EVER leave my door unlocked after some intruder entered my house while I slept and murdered one of my children. I would have the best security system I could get, probably also a big dog on watch at all times.

[Ames]

This is the one thing that really gets me.

If I woke up to find my youngest child gone and a ransom note telling me the kidnapper is watching my house and will kill her (behead her, no less) if I so much as speak to a stray dog, there is absolutely no way possible that any of my other children would be leaving my presence.

They not only called 911 and failed to mention the threat to their daughter's life...they called over four other people, despite the death threats...and then felt so comfortable with the situation that they sent their other child out of the house - not knowing who the kidnapper is, or where he is, or if he'll be able to kidnap Burke as well as JonBenet and kill one or both of them.

There is no way to mistake or misinterpret the threat in the RN. They knew their daughter's life was being threatened. They knew the kidnapper was watching their house. They didn't even request a police escort.

Either they knew there was no threat to JonBenet's and/or Burke's lives, or they don't care if either or both of their children are killed.

And is absolutely no way I would EVER leave my door unlocked after some intruder entered my house while I slept and murdered one of my children. I would have the best security system I could get, probably also a big dog on watch at all times.
This is one of the things that has bothered me too, about this case. That is one of the many reasons that I believe that they are guilty. Why call over all of those people? Wasn't JB's pediatrician one of the ones that was called? That's what I have read..., and if its true, WHY on earth would HE, of all people, need to be called? That also tells me, if true...that he was really close to the Ramsey's, and gives him even more of a reason to lie about JB's dr's visits. He knows more than he is saying....I believe. But, I guess that Patsy thought that she would make a big show of it, thats why all of the people were invited over. I know that she didn't read all of the ransom note (she didn't need to, IMO...because SHE is the one that wrote it), and didn't know about the threat to JB's head, if they so much as talked to a stray dog, but John was reading it as she made the call (or so they SAY.) Why didn't he yell to her and tell her to tell the 911 operator to tell the cops to be very discreet, park on another road and walk up...or WHATEVER. But, there was absolutely nothing said to the 911 operator about the threats. I find that ODD!! They obviously didn't think that part of it through, or Patsy wouldn't have invited people over, like it was some sort of a party. I believe that Patsy already knew that JB was dead, because she flung herself on the body (to explain away the fibers...IMO), and gave that speech about Lazarus....which I believe was rehearsed, or at least she already knew in her mind what she was going to say, when the body was brought up, and what her actions were going to be. Another poster said that if that had of been HER child, they would have had to pry her away from the body....and I agree with that!!! But Patsy...what does she do? She leaves the house with her husband, with her baby's body still inside. Does anyone know if any family members accompanied the body to the morgue?? I heard that nobody did...if true, I think that in itself points to their guilt!!

[Show Me]

No Ames John was making plans to fly his family to Atlanta on his private plane only 2 hours after JonBenet's body was discovered.....okay to leave Burke go off with only Fleet and Priscilla to guard him against monitoring murderous kidnappers....but when JonBenet's body was discovered....time for John and Patsy to high tail it out of town.

Course the cops told John he needed to stick around for a while....like to answer questions.

[Nuisanceposter]

I have no idea who called Dr Beuf, but he was there at the Fernies' house, administering anti-anxiety meds like Pez. That seems rather strange to me - I know the Rs and the Beufs went to the same church, but the idea that they were so chummy that Beuf would drop whatever plans he had to go spoonfeed Valium to Patsy leads me to believe he would have covered up anything that would have made them all look bad - such as ignoring the signs of sexual abuse in a small child and hiding the medical records in a security box.

I think Patsy intentionally invited all those people over to confuse the scene and provide a buffer between the Rs and the police. Barbara Fernie and Priscilla White flanked Patsy during the time in the sunroom, and had to pull her down the hall to the Christmas tree when JR brought up JonBenet's body.

I don't understand that either, unless Patsy already knew JB was dead and didn't want to have to face the body (again.) If my child had been missing and my spouse came up the steps calling "I found her!", I'd be pushing everyone else out of the way to get to my child and yes, you'd have to pull me off her body. I would have sat with her until they took her to the morgue, and even then, I'd still want to go along. None of the Rs accompanied JonBenet to the morgue - she had to make that final trip all by herself.

I think the Lazarus speech was planned. I think Patsy thought her piousness and desperation would be thought of as sincere. Too bad she didn't realize the call to invite people over despite death threats and sending Burke off to go to the Whites already belied the situation.

Why didn't they just have Burke go upstairs and do something else for a while, if they wanted him out of the thick of the situation? There were enough rooms in that house and enough other people there that someone could have sat with him away from the commotion. I think they wanted him out of the house when his baby sister's body was finally found.

The Rs had a police escort take them to the Fernies when they were told to clear out of the hellhole - apparently they thought the threat was still dire even though the kidnapped child had been found dead...makes me wonder why the Rs didn't think Burke going elsewhere didn't also deserve a police escort.

JR's official reason for trying to jet out of Boulder right away was "something came up." That's right, Johnny, your daughter's body came up from the basement.

He managed to dodge pesky police asking questions by having legal counsel in place by 7 p.m. that evening, which I believe was before JonBenet's body even left the hellhole.

[Ames]

No Ames John was making plans to fly his family to Atlanta on his private plane only 2 hours after JonBenet's body was discovered.....okay to leave Burke go off with only Fleet and Priscilla to guard him against monitoring murderous kidnappers....but when JonBenet's body was discovered....time for John and Patsy to high tail it out of town.

Course the cops told John he needed to stick around for a while....like to answer questions.
Thanks, I thought that I had remembered reading that somewhere...that nobody within the family, accompanied JB's body to the morgue. So it IS true! I wonder if the investigators thought that was weird? See, that just in itself makes me know that they are guilty.

[Ames]

I have no idea who called Dr Beuf, but he was there at the Fernies' house, administering anti-anxiety meds like Pez. That seems rather strange to me - I know the Rs and the Beufs went to the same church, but the idea that they were so chummy that Beuf would drop whatever plans he had to go spoonfeed Valium to Patsy leads me to believe he would have covered up anything that would have made them all look bad - such as ignoring the signs of sexual abuse in a small child and hiding the medical records in a security box.I believe that Dr Beuf has many, many secrets.

I think Patsy intentionally invited all those people over to confuse the scene and provide a buffer between the Rs and the police. Barbara Fernie and Priscilla White flanked Patsy during the time in the sunroom, and had to pull her down the hall to the Christmas tree when JR brought up JonBenet's body.I agree with you, she was trying to contaminate and confuse the scene, and trying to provide a buffer. Patsy's butt stayed glued to the couch, the whole time. Not even when Fleet yelled for somebody to call 911, did she budge. When John yelled "I found her"...she did not budge. She (if she was innocent, which she isn't), wouldn't have known at that time if JB was dead, or if she was seriously hurt. So why didn't she jump up an RUN not walk to find out what was wrong with her baby?? Her actions speak volumns to me .

I don't understand that either, unless Patsy already knew JB was dead and didn't want to have to face the body (again.) If my child had been missing and my spouse came up the steps calling "I found her!", I'd be pushing everyone else out of the way to get to my child and yes, you'd have to pull me off her body. I would have sat with her until they took her to the morgue, and even then, I'd still want to go along. None of the Rs accompanied JonBenet to the morgue - she had to make that final trip all by herself.Again, as I stated above, her actions were strange. That is the ONLY reason that I can think of that she wouldn't have been pushing everyone out of the way to get to her baby. She KNEW that she was dead, and why would she ASSUME that JB was dead, when John yelled..."I found her", unless she already KNEW that (she was dead). JB could have been seriously hurt...but NOT dead...for all she knew (if she were innocent, that is.) I agree with you, first of all, they would have had to pry me off of my dead child's body, and then I wouldn't want to leave her side, and THEN they would have to kill me to keep me for accompaning her body to the morgue, because I wouldn't want to leave her, or have her make that final trip all by herself (that just makes me cry when I think about it!)


I think the Lazarus speech was planned. I think Patsy thought her piousness and desperation would be thought of as sincere. Too bad she didn't realize the call to invite people over despite death threats and sending Burke off to go to the Whites already belied the situation.Me too. She knew all along what she was going to say. She probably had been going over it in her head, all night long.



Why didn't they just have Burke go upstairs and do something else for a while, if they wanted him out of the thick of the situation? There were enough rooms in that house and enough other people there that someone could have sat with him away from the commotion. I think they wanted him out of the house when his baby sister's body was finally found.I agree with you on this too. They didn't want him to see his baby sister's dead body.

The Rs had a police escort take them to the Fernies when they were told to clear out of the hellhole - apparently they thought the threat was still dire even though the kidnapped child had been found dead...makes me wonder why the Rs didn't think Burke going elsewhere didn't also deserve a police escort.I guess that they didn't think of EVERYTHING, because thats just another thing that points to their guilt. Either they didn't care about Burke, as much as their ownselves, OR they knew that there was never a kidnapper (which IMO is the case here).

JR's official reason for trying to jet out of Boulder right away was "something came up." That's right, Johnny, your daughter's body came up from the basement."Something came up"? I have never heard that before. Geez....his daughter is dead, and he wants to leave Boulder, because "something came up"? WOW.....doesn't sound anything like what an innocent person would say, and leaving Boulder doesn't sound like something an innocent person would want to do...now does it?

He managed to dodge pesky police asking questions by having legal counsel in place by 7 p.m. that evening, which I believe was before JonBenet's body even left the hellhole.Something that only a GUILTY person would do, IMO.

[Eagle1]

We're still assuming Patsy called the friends over that morning, but such a big thing has been made of her still being in the previous night's clothes, were there any proofs, FRESH TIRE TRACKS in the light snow which had fallen before morning that they weren't all there the whole night with her, and all still in the same clothes? I may sound like I'm nitpicking but don't we think this would make a huge difference. It'd be hard to change our thinking after all this time, to at least keep an open mind to the possibility, I know.

Dr. B. KNOWS a lot, yes, I'll bet he does, and he's probably not the only one! JR was letting something go on that he shouldn't have, and was saying "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry." Maybe just being away too much?

Somebody more creative than I want to do some brainstorming about what it could have been?

[Ames]

We're still assuming Patsy called the friends over that morning, but such a big thing has been made of her still being in the previous night's clothes, were there any proofs, FRESH TIRE TRACKS in the light snow which had fallen before morning that they weren't all there the whole night with her, and all still in the same clothes? I may sound like I'm nitpicking but don't we think this would make a huge difference. It'd be hard to change our thinking after all this time, to at least keep an open mind to the possibility, I know.

Dr. B. KNOWS a lot, yes, I'll bet he does, and he's probably not the only one! JR was letting something go on that he shouldn't have, and was saying "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry." Maybe just being away too much?

Somebody more creative than I want to do some brainstorming about what it could have been?
The friends SAID that she called them over, and Patsy said that she called them over (after the note was found). So you are thinking that Patsy called her friends over that night, and they spent the night with Patsy and John, BEFORE she found the ransom note? That just doesn't make any sense, I am not quite sure that I understand what you are getting at. How would Patsy explain calling them over at night, before the note was found? That she just loves their company so much, that she thought that she would bring the party to HER house, after leaving the Whites? ;)

[JMO8778]

I wouldn't doubt it, especially since it was pristine after supposedly panicking upon finding the note...



A fraud is a fraud.

Is anyone else insulted by the Ramseys acting like victims? Upsets me greatly. Thanks.
Yes,it does.The real victims are the ones wrongly accused,and first and foremost,the murder victim is the ultimate victim ...JONBENET.
Not only that,it's that they seem to think everyone should just be a total idiot and beleive them,and they get angry when that doesn't happen.Do they really not understand the impressions they are giving??? ...that it's 'all about them'?Do they really think everyone is just supposed to take their stories at face value?We'd all have to have very low IQ's to do that,starting with that **ridiculous so-called 'ransom note'.** Then the pineapple,the fiber evidence,as well as the rest of their behavior(too much to go into right now).My word.

[JMO8778]

I think JonBenet was to have been dumped away from the house, dressed in her barbie-gown, apparently garroted and sexually assaulted.


.That makes a lot of sense.Perhaps lack of time (from the staging and writing the note) didn't permit it in the end? The 911 call did come in rather late in accordance with what the R's prior plans were.

[JMO8778]

Oh my gosh, I totally agree with you. I couldn't believe that they actually left the house with JB's body still inside! If that was my child, they would for certain, have had to pry me away from her. I had never even thought about that before...but, that just adds another item to my list of why I think that the Ramsey's did it (I believe that Patsy did it, with John helping to stage the scene).I've been in a missing person situation before(not a child),but that's how I know their behavior was wayyyyyyy off base ! It need not be a child to know that though,for I know my reactions would have been even more panicky if it had been!
No speculation is needed IMO...without a doubt,their behavior was wayy off base for a missing child ! (kidnapped by a small FF at that).I believe they would have been ripping and tearing that house apart looking for JB and for clues,going out and searching for her,etc.Instead,PR SITS in the sunroom,and JR answers the door cordially,and fails to do any further searching at that time,and it takes 7 hrs to find her body in their own home.Sorry,anyone who expects me to beleive that thinks they are talking to an idiot.
BTW, it is VERY hard to sit still when someone is missing ! I was pacing the floor,running around the house again and again and again,looking for clues or anything out of place! If someone had wanted to sedate me,I'd have said NO.I needed my senses to be sharp so I could help !
The R's were just way too PASSIVE,IMO.That's not saying they should have been doing such and so;I'm saying their behavior was just not beleivable.
JR is still too passive to this day...he would be angry and would be using his media time wisely to appeal to the public to help find the killer if he didn't know who it was.As far as JMK goes,I believe he would have said something like,'Ok,this guy isn't the it,but maybe we're getting closer.Please help us find the killer !"

[UKGuy]

That makes a lot of sense.Perhaps lack of time (from the staging and writing the note) didn't permit it in the end? The 911 call did come in rather late in accordance with what the R's prior plans were.

JMO8778,

Its possible that the failure to fully complete her redressing to include her barbie-nightgown, due to rigor-mortis having set in, was what held them back, either that or the redrafts of the ransom note, since the wine-cellar staging and the ransom note compliment each other.

Personally I think they ran out of time, they knew this, we know this, because they made the 911 call close to 6AM, any later and there would have been difficult questions as to why they were late for their flight etc.

If you consider some of the staging as logical elements then they are well thought out, they are not random or the result of panicked thought, they are intended to deceive and sow the seeds of doubt, to this end they largely succeeded.

One aspect of the staging which requires careful consideration is whether after arriving back from the Whites, someone in the Ramsey household sexually assaulted JonBenet, thereby causing her to bleed?

Or whether this was an aspect of a prior staging that was cleaned up to make way for an abduction scenario.

Even the Ramsey's understood, JonBenet visibly sexually assaulted could not be presented as the product of a terrorist abduction, the motives are incompatible!

So a prior sexual assault is a distinct possibility, and part of the motive lying behind her death?



.

[JMO8778]

Thanks, I thought that I had remembered reading that somewhere...that nobody within the family, accompanied JB's body to the morgue. So it IS true! I wonder if the investigators thought that was weird? See, that just in itself makes me know that they are guilty.I'm sure they did.
It reminds me of when I purchased a house,and found out later the responses to the q's I'd asked the owner were all lies.What happens? The guy's WIFE calls me when he gets a letter from my attorney saying he was untruthful ! IF he had been in fact telling the truth,he would have been ANGRY and would have called me himself ! That's what would have happened if I'd said he was a liar and he wasn't...he would have been angry enough to pick up the phone and refute it himself ! Instead he hid behind his wife.
I think it's so imprt to look at what ppl DO,rather than what they *say.

[Ames]

The R's were just way too PASSIVE,IMO.That's not saying they should have been doing such and so;I'm saying their behavior was just not beleivable.
JR is still too passive to this day...he would be angry and would be using his media time wisely to appeal to the public to help find the killer if he didn't know who it was.As far as JMK goes,I believe he would have said something like,'Ok,this guy isn't the it,but maybe we're getting closer.Please help us find the killer !"

Passive? Yes, I totally agree. I shouldn't, but I compare the Ramsey's to OJ Simpson...promising to find Nicole's killer. Where was he the next day, on the GOLF COURSE....guess he thought that he would find the killer there. When all he had to do, was look in the mirror. Off subject...but, great comparison...IMO

[Ames]

I'm sure they did.
It reminds me of when I purchased a house,and found out later the responses to the q's I'd asked the owner were all lies.What happens? The guy's WIFE calls me when he gets a letter from my attorney saying he was untruthful ! IF he had been in fact telling the truth,he would have been ANGRY and would have called me himself ! That's what would have happened if I'd said he was a liar and he wasn't...he would have been angry enough to pick up the phone and refute it himself ! Instead he hid behind his wife.
I think it's so imprt to look at what ppl DO,rather than what they *say.

Oh yes..as the saying goes....ACTIONS speak louder than words....

[ANGRYWOLF]

I presume he could have been called by the Grand Jury..and put under oath..if he had lied there it would have been perjury.....I doubt he would have gone to jail for the Ramseys....plus he could have lost his medical license...so that accusation simply doesn't make sense..:bang:

[Show Me]

I presume he could have been called by the Grand Jury..and put under oath..if he had lied there it would have been perjury.....I doubt he would have gone to jail for the Ramseys....plus he could have lost his medical license...so that accusation simply doesn't make sense..:bang:

Or he was not called by the Grand Jury....or he never gave JonBenet an vagina exam with a spectrum (sp?) and never saw damage to her hymen.

So Angrywolf, what's YOUR theory of what happened that night?

[ANGRYWOLF]

One person ..on a board said I had "delayed stress syndrome"...:bang: ..after I told them about my own personal experiences...Some people handle adversity..at least externally..better than others...you would need to ask their close friends and other family members..how they reacted to Jon Benet's death in private..before you should make any judgements...Hrumpf..that's for sure...you guys and your judgements...:razz:

[ANGRYWOLF]

he'll be caught someday..probably for another crime he commits..and something about that crime will lead back to this case..If it does turn out to be somebody else..I wonder if any of you..who believe the Ramseys did it..will you ever apologize..and yes..if it is ever PROVEN..the Ramseys did it..I will say you guys were right all along.Any takers ?:rolleyes:

[lannie]

he'll be caught someday..probably for another crime he commits..and something about that crime will lead back to this case..If it does turn out to be somebody else..I wonder if any of you..who believe the Ramseys did it..will you ever apologize..and yes..if it is ever PROVEN..the Ramseys did it..I will say you guys were right all along.Any takers ?:rolleyes:I did hear ba ba Walters apologize ,for all of mankind, who ever thought PATS could of harmed that child,the night the Mark Karr story broke,just because Lacy & Tracy came came up with ,the crap from M Karr'S twisted mine to use to throw him under the KILLER bus, all kinds of Ram supporters crawled from under their rocks, Sue man Lin woods ,compleatly exhonerated them ,,in breathless tones of JOY!!& they were WRONG,, WRONG WRONG, but I have never heard one then apologize to anyone,, have you Angryman?? I mean angrydog ,sorry I mean angrywoff,

[Show Me]

I think it was an intruder... he'll be caught someday..probably for another crime he commits..and something about that crime will lead back to this case..If it does turn out to be somebody else..I wonder if any of you..who believe the Ramseys did it..will you ever apologize..and yes..if it is ever PROVEN..the Ramseys did it..I will say you guys were right all along.Any takers ?:rolleyes:

And how did the intruder do it? Surely you must have some opinion since you don't like the RDI theory.

Was it a friend of John? How did the intruder enter? Why do you think the angry intruder killed an innocent little girl instead of the object of his hatred John?

Little more than intruder did it please.

[ANGRYWOLF]

That's never been something I supported....
People talk..Heck..people I use to work with..at evaluation time..would talk about how much of a raise they got..stuff like that..so word got back to someone about how much John Ramsey was suppose to get...I think there were two people...the planner..who wrote the note and the muscle...the henchman...the planner wrote the note..but for some reason left Jon Benet with the muscle..the muscle..has pedophilia..unknown to the planner and molested and killed Jon Benet...afterthat they knew the jig was up and split...:twocents:

[lannie]

That's never been something I supported....
People talk..Heck..people I use to work with..at evaluation time..would talk about how much of a raise they got..stuff like that..so word got back to someone about how much John Ramsey was suppose to get...I think there were two people...the planner..who wrote the note and the muscle...the henchman...the planner wrote the note..but for some reason left Jon Benet with the muscle..the muscle..has pedophilia..unknown to the planner and molested and killed Jon Benet...afterthat they knew the jig was up and split...:twocents:That 's it ?? & what facts do you have to support this view of yours for Christmas night 1996 in the RAM home,, Please more .

[ANGRYWOLF]

to support the belief/suspicion that the Ramseys killed Jon Benet...I don't think you have any facts to support your view...so it becomes..if there are no facts to support these suspicions that the Ramseys killed Jon Benet...and you know there were no one else in the house..no houseguests there..then by definition..it had to be an intruder. So you look for signs of an intruder. You look for the signs of an intrusion. Footprints in the snow..or on the ground...tiretracks....signs of breaking and entering..if that happened or entering...if there was an unlocked/broken basement window..you would look for fingerprints /footprints around the window inside the house...you would dust the room where Jon Benet 's body was found for fingerprints...the so-called degraded dna...you would look at the garrotte...how it was made...some people tie their knots differently than others..there was a case on forensic files where a woman was killed by her husband..who had been in the military..a paratrooper..so he tied special knots...that most people don't know how to make...so you look at that..and yes you look at the fibers...you look for human and animal hairs. You look at the timeline..when Jon Benet was killed and how any suspects account for their whereabouts when it happened.One of the reasons the Ramseys were not arrested/charged..may be due to concealed evidence...things the police found out..and haven't released to the media...that just don't point towards them..much as that may disappoint some of you...:banghead:

[Show Me]

That's never been something I supported....
People talk..Heck..people I use to work with..at evaluation time..would talk about how much of a raise they got..stuff like that..so word got back to someone about how much John Ramsey was suppose to get...I think there were two people...the planner..who wrote the note and the muscle...the henchman...the planner wrote the note..but for some reason left Jon Benet with the muscle..the muscle..has pedophilia..unknown to the planner and molested and killed Jon Benet...afterthat they knew the jig was up and split...:twocents:

Thank you for the answer....however can you clarify what you are saying. Someone at Access Graphics found out John's $118,000 raise and wanted it. Had a partner who wrote the note and the henchman abused and killed JonBenet?

Do you think the planner or henchman or both staged the crime scene in the basement?

[ANGRYWOLF]

..Could be someone who knows someone who works there..from a passing converasation such as"hey..that John Ramsey sure is lucky..He getting a $180,000 bonus.."..whatever..to the wrong person...the planner finds out...he recruits the muscle...and it goes from there..The planner didn't kill Jon Benet..the muscle/henchman did....I'm sure the planner was angry about it...he got nothing...but he can't say anything because he'll be charged with murder...:banghead:

[Jayelles]

Thank you for the answer....however can you clarify what you are saying. Someone at Access Graphics found out John's $118,000 raise and wanted it. Had a partner who wrote the note and the henchman abused and killed JonBenet?

Do you think the planner or henchman or both staged the crime scene in the basement?
I have always thought it was ridiculous that anyone killed Jonbenet because they were jealous of her father's business success. There are plenty of ways that John Ramsey could have been successfully hurt without killing an innocent child. Also, I don't think the mindsets are the same (I'll explain this later if anyone wants, right now, it's late).

I think JonBenet's killer hated/resented HER. It was an extremely violent and high risk crime against a child and I don't think that marries with business jealousy. John Ramsey's business could have been sabotaged - or someone could have framed him with child porn on his computer much more easily than creeping into his home at night and throttling his youngest child.

[ANGRYWOLF]

I think it was pure greed..

[Jayelles]

I think it was pure greed..
greed for what? Some leftover cord and the remainder of a roll of duct tape? That seems to be all that is missing from the ramsey house!

[Show Me]

..Could be someone who knows someone who works there..from a passing converasation such as"hey..that John Ramsey sure is lucky..He getting a $180,000 bonus.."..whatever..to the wrong person...the planner finds out...he recruits the muscle...and it goes from there..The planner didn't kill Jon Benet..the muscle/henchman did....I'm sure the planner was angry about it...he got nothing...but he can't say anything because he'll be charged with murder...:banghead:

So a perfect stranger walking behind someone who declared John received this big bonus decided to murder this 'John Ramsey' and get the $118,000 bonus?

Said stranger must have walked behind this 'knowledgeable' person and gained additional information, like John had a wife, two kids, dog, and dropped a map of the three story house, along with Patsy's handwriting sample and paint brush....?

[Show Me]

I think it was pure greed..

Then WHY didn't they take the body so they can get the ransom money?????

[Jayelles]

This is completely off topic, but I have always thought that the killer of little Caroline Dickenson sounded like the kind of perp who would do a Ramsey type murder.

HIs name is Fernando Arce Montes (actually, I think I have that wrong - I'm terrible with names).

I noticed that in a recent newspaper (which I might still have) there was a 4 page spread about him and I meant to read it but forgot. I will look for that and report back.

He is Spanish but of independent means and he travelled all over the world - including the UK and US working periodlically as a waiter. He had a history of stalking young women and girls and breaking into their homes at night. He also snooped among their stuff and used their names on occasion.

Caroline Dickenson was the young girl who was murdered on a school trip to France. Montes strangled her whilst her three friends slept next to her. One reported hearing her grunting but thought she was just dreaming.

[lannie]

to support the belief/suspicion that the Ramseys killed Jon Benet...I don't think you have any facts to support your view...so it becomes..if there are no facts to support these suspicions that the Ramseys killed Jon Benet...and you know there were no one else in the house..no houseguests there..then by definition..it had to be an intruder. So you look for signs of an intruder. You look for the signs of an intrusion. Footprints in the snow..or on the ground...tiretracks....signs of breaking and entering..if that happened or entering...if there was an unlocked/broken basement window..you would look for fingerprints /footprints around the window inside the house...you would dust the room where Jon Benet 's body was found for fingerprints...the so-called degraded dna...you would look at the garrotte...how it was made...some people tie their knots differently than others..there was a case on forensic files where a woman was killed by her husband..who had been in the military..a paratrooper..so he tied special knots...that most people don't know how to make...so you look at that..and yes you look at the fibers...you look for human and animal hairs. You look at the timeline..when Jon Benet was killed and how any suspects account for their whereabouts when it happened.One of the reasons the Ramseys were not arrested/charged..may be due to concealed evidence...things the police found out..and haven't released to the media...that just don't point towards them..much as that may disappoint some of you...:banghead:So now the thyme is we do not need facts ??

[JBRMod2]

Enough is enough.

[JMO8778]

I did hear ba ba Walters apologize ,for all of mankind, who ever thought PATS could of harmed that child,the night the Mark Karr story broke,just because Lacy & Tracy came came up with ,the crap from M Karr'S twisted mine to use to throw him under the KILLER bus, all kinds of Ram supporters crawled from under their rocks, Sue man Lin woods ,compleatly exhonerated them ,,in breathless tones of JOY!!& they were WRONG,, WRONG WRONG, but I have never heard one then apologize to anyone,, have you Angryman?? I mean angrydog ,sorry I mean angrywoff,I never went back on what I thought.It's just too obvious from the evidence,IMO.As far as JMK writing the RN? He would have had a heck of a lot of explaining to do if he'd said he'd written it...like those nonsensical phrases such as 'use that good southern common sense of yours',when he didn't even know the family.

[JMO8778]

I recall JR himself was very concerned over just the 'facts' being reported in DOI,and nothing else..like he didn't like speculation.My opinion on that is that speculation comes too close to the truth for comfort for him.

[Eagle1]

Answering an email question just to be polite, that I can no longer find here, no, I never said Patsy called the friends over the previous night, or ever called them at all. Some secret ritual or something could have been planned for quite some time, and all of them may have been wearing the previous night's clothes. Someone provided a timeline regarding how they could arrive so quickly, so early, and forgot to mention getting dressed.

There's just a coincidence that a pedophile recently in the news kept going on and on about loving little dead "friends", just as McSanta did, who had a celtic harp with notches on it for dead little "friends".

We don't know whether or not the harp was at the Rs' house that night for some kind of ritual, which could have been planned for some time, or why it was mentioned. I forgot to investigate if there's anything about the harp at ACandyRose.

Most of us don't believe anything the R's say, so why should we believe them that they were the ONLY ones in the house that night?

I don't think any mom would put those size 12 panties on their daughter, which allegedly were in the same drawer, and easy for ANYONE to find, despite the tabloid's sensational article claiming only a mom could know where they were, or have her face down and not notice the wet longjohns.

But we probably can't find out any more about the friends' activities and have now moved on to another subject, which I certainly don't want to interrupt.

[Ames]

Answering an email question just to be polite, that I can no longer find here, no, I never said Patsy called the friends over the previous night, or ever called them at all. Some secret ritual or something could have been planned for quite some time, and all of them may have been wearing the previous night's clothes. Someone provided a timeline regarding how they could arrive so quickly, so early, and forgot to mention getting dressed.

There's just a coincidence that a pedophile recently in the news kept going on and on about loving little dead "friends", just as McSanta did, who had a celtic harp with notches on it for dead little "friends".

We don't know whether or not the harp was at the Rs' house that night for some kind of ritual, which could have been planned for some time, or why it was mentioned. I forgot to investigate if there's anything about the harp at ACandyRose.

Most of us don't believe anything the R's say, so why should we believe them that they were the ONLY ones in the house that night?

I don't think any mom would put those size 12 panties on their daughter, which allegedly were in the same drawer, and easy for ANYONE to find, despite the tabloid's sensational article claiming only a mom could know where they were, or have her face down and not notice the wet longjohns.

But we probably can't find out any more about the friends' activities and have now moved on to another subject, which I certainly don't want to interrupt.
I see what you are getting at now....thats a good question, concerning the friends.

[SuperDave]

If it does turn out to be somebody else..I wonder if any of you..who believe the Ramseys did it..will you ever apologize..and yes..if it is ever PROVEN..the Ramseys did it..I will say you guys were right all along.Any takers ?

Only if I count!

Or he was not called by the Grand Jury....or he never gave JonBenet an vagina exam with a spectrum (sp?) and never saw damage to her hymen.

Both.

[martin walkerdine]

what do you think about james leroy davies as a possible suspect in the jonbenet ramsey case

[IrishMist]

what do you think about james leroy davies as a possible suspect in the jonbenet ramsey caseIs there anything against him at all, besides some anonymous internet poster throwing his name out there?

[SuperDave]

Never heard of him?

[IrishMist]

Never heard of him?Apparently, he lived on the same street as JMK. (Though there is some question as to whether it was at the same time)

He was arrested for rape, sodomy and something else. Out on bail, he skipped the country. The US was trying to get him extridited. (sp?)

I think some of the hoopla stems from the fact that the age (nor the sex, for that matter) of the victim was revealed, so there have been some assumptions made there, too.

At this point, I don't put a whole lot of stock into the whole thing at all. Just people grasping at straws.

[coloradokares]

Apparently, he lived on the same street as JMK. (Though there is some question as to whether it was at the same time)

He was arrested for rape, sodomy and something else. Out on bail, he skipped the country. The US was trying to get him extridited. (sp?)

I think some of the hoopla stems from the fact that the age (nor the sex, for that matter) of the victim was revealed, so there have been some assumptions made there, too.

At this point, I don't put a whole lot of stock into the whole thing at all. Just people grasping at straws.
Why must we keep looking for the impossible scapegoats...the fact remains there are a lot of sick individuals in this world. But were they at the Ramseys
house that night killing JonBenet? JMHO, if they did they were way to perfect so as to leave no prints or anything.

[martin walkerdine]

james leroy davies was aged 41 at the time that jonbenet ramsey was killed at this moment in time i am not a where of james leroy davies been in boulder when she was killed but reports from england are suggesting that him and john mark karr are best friends at that time and police have not cleared john mark karr of the crime as reports are suggesting the dna that as so cleared john mark karr of sexual assault might belong to james leroy davies instead and both were together at the seen of the crime


james leroy davies is from hamilton alabama america
age 51
facing charges of first degree rape on 2 counts, sexual torture on 1 count and first degree sodomy on 2 counts he was bailed for $130,000 as of 2004 and fled to austrailia.

he was arrested on the 15th september 2006 in adelaide and was remand in prison at adelaide remand prison located at currie street adelaide he was in count on the 15 december 2006 and the judge ordered him to be extradited back to hamilton alabama america so far he his still in austrailia awaiting his move back .

but you might after to take this report with a pinch of salt as michael tracey andn the mills productions made a programme which was aired on channel 4 in britain which suggested at the end of the program that a person in austrailia and a friend of john mark karr might be connected with the jonbenet ramsey case you can see the program in 7 parts on www.youtube.com (http://www.youtube.com) and watch clip 7 to see it

[Eagle1]

Why must we keep looking for the impossible scapegoats...the fact remains there are a lot of sick individuals in this world.

But were they at the Ramseys house that night killing JonBenet? JMHO, if they did they were way too perfect, so as to leave no prints or anything.

A LOT, not just the Ramseys, right.

Think about it, if a policeman with access to the evidence was involved, and wouldn't he know what forensic clues to look for and clean up? Too simple.

Steve Thomas said he and another officer were very surprised, gasped, when a picture of an open dictionary fell out of the evidence folder. That was approximately p. 363 I believe in the hardcover ST book.

Someone somewhere in the forums said ST said a dictionary hadn't been at the crime scene when it was originally processed. Sorry I don't remember who or where, and I can't find this incident at all in the paperback.

To me that's forensic evidence of an intruder!

(1.) The Ramseys were too educated to have to look up the word Incest,
(2) Nobody makes that big a dog-ear before snapping a book shut,
if someone's coming, and in fact it wasn't shut. It was staging, and
(3) No parent, able to clean up a crime scene so well, would leave that.
(4) Burke was probably hiding out, scared, if he wasn't really asleep through whatever happened. Remember the controversy about whether he was alike when police were called? And let's face it, you know he wouldn't have gone to look up Incest, as some have suggested.
(5.) Whoever placed the dog-eared open dictionary evidently had access tp police evidence files!
He'd know how to clean a crime scene of any evidence he wouldn't want found.

[martin walkerdine]

hello eagle 1

[IrishMist]

Martin, I wonder if you have any links to these reports coming out of England? When I was looking into this guy, what I found was that there was record of him living in Hamilton from 2001. JMK moved to CA in 2000.

I'm willing to keep an open mind, but unless the evidence against this guy comes down to more than two perverts once lived in the same town, well, I'm just not willing to waste much time on it.

And, just to make life easier for anyone that wants to look into this guy, his last name is "Davie" with no "s" at the end.

[martin walkerdine]

if you change v in davis to a x then you have daxis as in john mark karr emails to michael tracey

[IrishMist]

if you change v in davis to a x then you have daxis as in john mark karr emails to michael traceyWho is Davis, now? I don't think I've heard of him. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/waitasec.gif

[martin walkerdine]

what i can also gather he was living in a town called coober pedy which is north of adelaide

[coloradokares]

james leroy davies was aged 41 at the time that jonbenet ramsey was killed at this moment in time i am not a where of james leroy davies been in boulder when she was killed but reports from england are suggesting that him and john mark karr are best friends at that time and police have not cleared john mark karr of the crime as reports are suggesting the dna that as so cleared john mark karr of sexual assault might belong to james leroy davies instead and both were together at the seen of the crime




james leroy davies is from hamilton alabama america
age 51
facing charges of first degree rape on 2 counts, sexual torture on 1 count and first degree sodomy on 2 counts he was bailed for $130,000 as of 2004 and fled to austrailia.

he was arrested on the 15th september 2006 in adelaide and was remand in prison at adelaide remand prison located at currie street adelaide he was in count on the 15 december 2006 and the judge ordered him to be extradited back to hamilton alabama america so far he his still in austrailia awaiting his move back .

but you might after to take this report with a pinch of salt as michael tracey andn the mills productions made a programme which was aired on channel 4 in britain which suggested at the end of the program that a person in austrailia and a friend of john mark karr might be connected with the jonbenet ramsey case you can see the program in 7 parts on www.youtube.com (http://www.youtube.com/) and watch clip 7 to see itFirst off anything that Micheal Tracy has anything to do with is automatically suspect info as far as I am concerned. Him and his crocumentaries. Him and Lou Smit would claim it was the Easter Bunny if they could. Sorry I don't think JMK was anything but 15 minutes of fame ....fed by Michael Tracey. In addition to that he was arrested for rape......not pedophile related charges. 3rd JMK was released because he cannot be proved to even have been in Boulder that night.

[JMO8778]

First off anything that Micheal Tracy has anything to do with is automatically suspect info as far as I am concerned. Him and his crocumentaries. Him and Lou Smit would claim it was the Easter Bunny if they could. Sorry I don't think JMK was anything but 15 minutes of fame ....fed by Michael Tracey. In addition to that he was arrested for rape......not pedophile related charges. 3rd JMK was released because he cannot be proved to even have been in Boulder that night.well-said.They used JMK to fit what they thought an 'intruder' might look and be like in the case.
THE FACT THAT HE WAS WEARING EYELINER spells 'acting' to me.I think JMK just used it to make his eyes seem very dark and mysterious.
I know some will disagree with me on that,but that's JMO.If he was really that into wearing makeup,he'd have had on eyeshadow,lipstick,the works.

[coloradokares]

well-said.They used JMK to fit what they thought an 'intruder' might look and be like in the case.
THE FACT THAT HE WAS WEARING EYELINER spells 'acting' to me.I think JMK just used it to make his eyes seem very dark and mysterious.
I know some will disagree with me on that,but that's JMO.If he was really that into wearing makeup,he'd have had on eyeshadow,lipstick,the works.
Not sure if they were going for the dark sinister look...or the more fem look considering he was consulting regarding sex change. How odd is that for someone who said sexually he was like a wolf. JMK needs a lot of help
and by no means am I sympathetic towards him in any way. However I think he was coached on details and of course he totally botched alot of stuff. Like picking JB up at school etc. Good grief.

[Ames]

Not sure if they were going for the dark sinister look...or the more fem look considering he was consulting regarding sex change. How odd is that for someone who said sexually he was like a wolf. JMK needs a lot of help
and by no means am I sympathetic towards him in any way. However I think he was coached on details and of course he totally botched alot of stuff. Like picking JB up at school etc. Good grief.
He is one weird sicko pervert!! I was SO hoping that he would go to prison on those porn charges, and become some guy's (or ALOT of guys) "girlfriend".

[martin walkerdine]

who can get into a house without leaving any trace of a person has been there so the prints or marks suggestion can be explained someone must have been in the house that the family didn't no about at the time of jonbenet death or if not then a family member must have did it but i am not sure on this as the dna that was tested in 2003 would have spotted this and matched a member of the ramsey family and the dna as been checked by the fbi and codise with no matches as well so this person must be a very good burglar turned killer or a person with no criminal background so far with a person gudge against the ramseys.

[Nuisanceposter]

...or the DNA is completely unrelated to the murder.

[Ames]

...or the DNA is completely unrelated to the murder.
That would be MY thought!

[Eagle1]

I have another tentative theory, not my favorite one, mind you. I have many. Will just throw it out there for possible discussion.

Some INTERNATIONAL ring of some kind had just been busted in Boulder, it was said years ago, can't find anything about it now, maybe hushed up because they didn't get the most powerful ones.

POSSIBLY, there were some after-party parties, maybe not connected to the international thing, and I have no idea what kind of after-party parties happen. Any ideas?

I'm only suggesting it because of S. Stine refusing to open the door for BPD and getting away with it.

And ST expressing such surprise that he and a coworker "gasped" when the dictionary picture fell out of the evidence packet. Hardcover ST, about p 363 or 373.

Why should they have been that surprised?

To me it suggests the dictionary hadn't been there when the crime scene was processed, so they'd never heard of it, and that the Ramseys were too educated to need to look up the word "Incest". Burke would have been PROBABLY too scared, and pretending to be asleep. It even suggests to me that someone at BPD may have been involved.

Else why wouldn't they have insisted on investigating the attempted 911 call? Who ever heard of refusing to let police enter? What could have been going on, that the "friends" didn't need any time to consult about whether to let them in? Forum people years ago found out that FW's mother had been partying or getting ready for a party, wasn't in a hospital. To me that dictionary was probably the famous non-existant "evidence of an intruder", whether it was one of the friends or whoever. So I hate to keep hearing over and over the rash statement there was no evidence of one.

We only have the Ramseys' word for it that nobody was in the house but them. There certainly could have been another after-hours party of some kind, and they could have rationalized, "We can sleep on the plane tomorrow." This is a rash statement, too, I realize, but just as possible.

[sandraladeda]

he'll be caught someday..probably for another crime he commits..and something about that crime will lead back to this case..If it does turn out to be somebody else..I wonder if any of you..who believe the Ramseys did it..will you ever apologize..and yes..if it is ever PROVEN..the Ramseys did it..I will say you guys were right all along.Any takers ?:rolleyes:First of all, I have never said anything to JR or PR's faces about any suspicions I might have, so I am not sure how I have ever done anything that warrants an apology. This is an internet discussion forum, we discuss. I would happily believe an alternate theory of the crime. I hate to think that this little girl died at the hands of a family member. What a terrible end for her! When the JMK fiasco began, I felt glad that the crime had been solved, at long last. Sadly, that was not the case. But as a RDI, I was prepared to consider another scenario. So far, from the books I have read, the facts of the case I have found from other sources, the parents involvement is the only credible conclusion I can reach.

Also, this is not a court of law. Once again, it is an internet discussion forum. We don't have the same burden of proof here as in a court of law. Believing in RDI is not the same as delivering a guilty verdict.

Finally, imo, many of the R's actions made them look guilty. Whether by personal choice or on advice of counsel, some of their actions looked like the actions of guilty parties, or at least of people who knew more than they were saying.

I think the Rs were probably involved somehow, either in the death or at least the staging/coverup. But I am not so invested in this belief that I won't consider another credible suspect, if one comes along. I did with JMK, and so did many RDIs. Ultimately, everyone wants justice for JBR.

Personally, I welcome other theories here. I am glad to see people post their belief in R innocence. This can generate meanigful debate.imho

[Darlene733510]

Regarding the dictionary and the word incest - could
JR have been molesting JB, and caught by PR? Could
Burke have heard PR acusing JR of incest, and wanted to know the meaning of the word? It seems to me this would be a logical explanation to this. He could have been wondering what it meant, if PR was really accusing John - and we know, when angry, she could really get carried away.

[Eagle1]

Regarding the dictionary and the word incest - could
JR have been molesting JB, and caught by PR?

Could Burke have heard PR acusing JR of incest, and wanted to know the meaning of the word? It seems to me this would be a logical explanation to this. He could have been wondering what it meant, if PR was really accusing John - and we know, when angry, she could really get carried away.

It's a long shot, imo, because Burke seemed to have this tactic of pretending to be asleep, and said he heard the house creaking that night. If he took a stealthy peek, not wanting anyone to know he was up, I don't think he would have made that big dog-ear pointing to the word and left the dictionary open. More likely he'd have slammed it shut, as I've speculated before, and would have run to his room. His curiosity would have been satisfied. Why would he want to look at it again, and why would it be harder for him to find a second time? Why would ST be so surprised as to gasp?

Some possible reasons, (1) nobody at BPD had mentioned this picture, (2) Very obviously the Ramseys were way too smart to even have to look up the word incest, much less leave the dictionary open, and (3) They wouldn't have had access to the police files, to put the picture in there. Evidently ST had heard about all the other evidence, or imo he wouldn't have gasped. It was so obviously "evidence of an intruder" that I wish we'd all stop saying rashly that there was no such evidence. It just wasn't formally called that or discussed much if any besides that tidbit in the book.

AngryWolf, hang in there; you're not alone. Since someone's reply to you mildly accuses FS's and IDI's of not doing things according to Hoyle, (I can't remember what) there's one example about the RDI's for you, the "no evidence of an intruder" saying, just so, you'll feel better, right? No offense to whoever that was. I bet you can't find one example of any of us reacting.

[Dru]

Ok, I know this is pretty far-fetched. But regarding the dictionary being opened to the page with 'incest' on it, does anyone know whether, in this dictionary, the word 'individual' was on the same page?

'Cause I just looked at the RN, and it seems like the spacing of the word 'individual' is odd--too much room after the 'du' and then the 'al' sort of squeezed together. Almost as though the RN writer had started the note (for the second or third time, possibly) and had gotten stuck on that word--maybe writing 'd' 'u' 'l' and then realizing something was missing?

[Eagle1]

So the note writer was looking up how to spell that? Good one. Fantastic. I love it when people think of something new.

But did he look up any of the other words, like bussines, which I probably just mis-spelled myself. If you ask yourself how to walk, you might not be able to, momentarily, they say. Worrying how to spell something maybe makes you mis-spell it.

And did he plan to have to come back for another look? I'm not being sarcastic, I promise, just going along. You're a true sleuth.

[Dru]

...but I tend to picture (in my constitutionally-protected free speech right to have an opinion for purposes of intellectual exercise, etc. etc.) PR writing the ransom note.

In that picture, I can see her getting frustrated as she makes the two or three attempts that LE thinks the RN writer made, judging from the torn-out sheets in PR's notebook.

So, if for some reason she stumbled on the word 'individuals,' she might have gone to check it in the middle of writing the word, rather than tear up yet another false start.

But time is running by fast, and she maybe realizes that it doesn't really matter if things are misspelled. In fact, she thinks, maybe having words spelled wrong will make it seem like some foreign faction/uneducated person is writing the note--so she throws in a few misspelled-on-purpose words for good measure.

As to why the stumble on 'individuals' which isn't a terribly hard word to spell? Dialect, maybe--sometimes we spell words the way we say them, and I've heard people in the south pronounce this word so it sounds more like 'indivigil' (or maybe 'individuyl').

Probably not what happened, but the dictionary bothers me. If RDI, which I tend to believe, why leave such an obvious clue? But if IDI, the open dictionary is worthless.

[icedtea4me]

Ok, I know this is pretty far-fetched. But regarding the dictionary being opened to the page with 'incest' on it, does anyone know whether, in this dictionary, the word 'individual' was on the same page?

'Cause I just looked at the RN, and it seems like the spacing of the word 'individual' is odd--too much room after the 'du' and then the 'al' sort of squeezed together. Almost as though the RN writer had started the note (for the second or third time, possibly) and had gotten stuck on that word--maybe writing 'd' 'u' 'l' and then realizing something was missing?So, you noticed something unusual about "individuals", too, Dru? It is the only word containing an "al" that was written like that. I isolated the "al" of "individuals" and saw a little picture clue of the side profile of a nude male. The straight line and then the curved line of the "l" forms the back and buttocks. The cap of the "a" forms the penis, whereas the thin oval forms the scrotum.


-Tea

[Ames]

...

<snipped>
Probably not what happened, but the dictionary bothers me. If RDI, which I tend to believe, why leave such an obvious clue? But if IDI, the open dictionary is worthless.
I am RDI, too. Funny how I have NEVER heard an IDI mention that dictionary. :confused:

[Eagle1]

I am RDI, too. Funny how I have NEVER heard an IDI mention that dictionary. :confused:

I'm about the only one, an FS leaning toward IDI, who makes a big thing of the dictionary, from either side, right? Can't get most to even notice.

I'm only making a big thing of it, as a declared FS because in my book it's glaring EVIDENCE of....if not an intruder, at least someone outside the family.Because, quoting Dru:

["Probably not what happened, but the dictionary bothers me. If RDI, which I tend to believe, why leave such an obvious clue?"]

Exactly. Don't some of us get awfully tired of the rash statement over and over habitually that "There's no evidence of an intruder,"? In my book it's glaring evidence. Judging by what we already know about Burke, I sure don't think he would have dog-eared that dictionary and left it there. For one thing, even if he didn't know police would be searching the house, he would have had to fear his father seeing it and knowing he'd been questionning his father's actions. And I really think he probably hid in bed the whole night, said he could hear the house creaking. Probably he heard some voices too, but was afraid to mention it, if the creaking woke him.

Nobody said anyone didn't have constitutionally-protected free speech, btw. I've used that myself, and just in case anyone plans to in the future, just be extra careful because I think there's a sticky that this site is privately owned and can make its own rules. Obviously I don't mean that in an unfriendly way, just the opposite. I think it's very good thinking, your coming up with the word individual. Also your noticing that their leaving such an obvious clue when they'd (possibly) cleaned up every other clue would not be logical.

In my book it's a clue for the IDI's to latch onto big time. There ya go. I do wish you'd get the point across that there is indeed "evidence of an intruder". And its getting into the police files just MAY mean a BPD intruder was somehow involved. Maybe just trying to shortcut to a solving of the case by evidence tampering-planting, or, maybe more for all we know.

Any ideas about why ST would "gasp" at seeing the picture? He'd had no time to think about it and what it could mean. Why gasp???