How many hours?

[icedtea4me]

From the 1998 A&E documentary The Ramseys vs The Media -

John Ramsey: The American public has been led to believe that we went to bed that night on Christmas, brutally beat JonBenet, sexually molested her, strangled her, woke up the next morning, wrote a three-page ransom note,called the police, sat around the house for four hours then I went down and discovered her body - Then was able to act distraught.

thewebsafe.tripod.com/09281998aedocumentary.htm


According to John's statement, how many hours had elapsed between the time the police were called and his discovering JonBenet's body in the basement?


-Tea

[icedtea4me]

He said four hours, so that is the number for which I voted.


-Tea

[icedtea4me]

I see there have been two votes placed for "seven hours", yet I don't see the word "seven" in John Ramsey's statement. Maybe it's that I'm not seeing it, like it's in some kind of invisible type. Could someone help me out here and show me where "seven" is in what John said?


-Tea

[Chrishope]

7 isn't what he said, but it's what really happened, which I assume is the point of this.

[icedtea4me]

7 isn't what he said, but it's what really happened, which I assume is the point of this.He said he made a trip down to the basement alone that morning, did he not, Chrishope?


-Tea

[Chrishope]

He said he made a trip down to the basement alone that morning, did he not, Chrishope?


-Tea


Yes, I believe he did. He also told Andrew that JB had been found at 11.

[SuperDave]

I think he's catching on, folks!

[JMO8778]

In DOI, JR says around 10am he decided to go down to the basement and check the window he broke when he was locked out,as he thought that area needed to be looked at.
I'm having a hard time beleiving that JR wasn't involved in the cover-up as well,but it does fit that when no call from the KN came by 10am,he thought the whole thing suspect and decided to check the house,esp the basement,more thoroughly.That time fits in with his comment as well,about finding the body 4 hrs after calling police.

[Chrishope]

In DOI, JR says around 10am he decided to go down to the basement and check the window he broke when he was locked out,as he thought that area needed to be looked at.
I'm having a hard time beleiving that JR wasn't involved in the cover-up as well,but it does fit that when no call from the KN came by 10am,he thought the whole thing suspect and decided to check the house,esp the basement,more thoroughly.That time fits in with his comment as well,about finding the body 4 hrs after calling police.

Except that he didn't find her at 10 or even 11, as he'd told AR. (At least as far as we know) He found her a few minutes after 1pm. So it doesn't seem to fit very well. The only way it might fit is if you think PR was solely responsible for JB's death, and JR believed it was a kidnapping until he found the body at 10 or 11, during his solo trip to the basement. The only reason for him not to tell police at that point was that he might have realized PR did it, and needed more time to think about how to deal with the situation.

[Nuisanceposter]

Stewart Long said that John Ramsey told him and JAR that he had discovered JonBenet's body around 11 am.

That combined with his "four hours" comment leads me to believe that "four hours" is correct, and not seven at all.

[Nuisanceposter]

Except that he didn't find her at 10 or even 11, as he'd told AR. (At least as far as we know) He found her a few minutes after 1pm. So it doesn't seem to fit very well. The only way it might fit is if you think PR was solely responsible for JB's death, and JR believed it was a kidnapping until he found the body at 10 or 11, during his solo trip to the basement. The only reason for him not to tell police at that point was that he might have realized PR did it, and needed more time to think about how to deal with the situation.I think he knew way before 10 or 11 am that there was no kidnapper. John Ramsey never behaved as if he thought that RN was real - having Patsy call police without mentioning the threat to their daughter's life, inviting other friends over when the note said NOT to talk to anyone, allowing Burke to leave the house and his personal protective watch...he had to know before the receiver ever left the telephone base that JonBenet had not been kidnapped, or I really don't think he would have gone along with any of that. And with his shirt fibers on her pubic area and in her underwear, he had to know she was dead in the basement.

[Chrishope]

I think he knew way before 10 or 11 am that there was no kidnapper. John Ramsey never behaved as if he thought that RN was real - having Patsy call police without mentioning the threat to their daughter's life, inviting other friends over when the note said NOT to talk to anyone, allowing Burke to leave the house and his personal protective watch...he had to know before the receiver ever left the telephone base that JonBenet had not been kidnapped, or I really don't think he would have gone along with any of that. And with his shirt fibers on her pubic area and in her underwear, he had to know she was dead in the basement.

Oh I agree. I think he knew there was no kidnapper right from the time they didn't put JB to bed to the time they killed her.

[JMO8778]

Stewart Long said that John Ramsey told him and JAR that he had discovered JonBenet's body around 11 am.

That combined with his "four hours" comment leads me to believe that "four hours" is correct, and not seven at all.I was thinking about the 11am conv. w/ Stewart as well.

[JMO8778]

Except that he didn't find her at 10 or even 11, as he'd told AR. (At least as far as we know) He found her a few minutes after 1pm. So it doesn't seem to fit very well. The only way it might fit is if you think PR was solely responsible for JB's death, and JR believed it was a kidnapping until he found the body at 10 or 11, during his solo trip to the basement. The only reason for him not to tell police at that point was that he might have realized PR did it, and needed more time to think about how to deal with the situation.Right,that's why I say it fits w/ what JR says in DOI,but it doesn't fit with the fact I think he was involved in the cover-up,if not more.
In retrospect,I wonder if he made that (so-called?) slip-up on purpose,in order to fit in with what Stewart heard him saying about finding the body sooner than 1pm?That would get him off the hook in being involved w. the actual murder,altho not off the hook with all of the coverup,but only with what happened after finding the body.

[UKGuy]

Oh I agree. I think he knew there was no kidnapper right from the time they didn't put JB to bed to the time they killed her.

Chrishope,

icedtea4me is asking According to John's statement which is a follow the dots kind of question.


Actually JonBenet may have been placed onto a bed after being killed, her post mortem posture is that of a child lying down on something not bundled or wrapped in anything since her arms are extended.

From memory her head blow was applied from behind, so thats not kind of accidental, this is intentional.

She was asphyxiated from the front, not from behind, how many people think Jonbenet was asphyxiated by the garrote?

She has multiple contusions and abrasions around her face and back, again difficult to see this arising as the consequence of some accident?

So superficially JonBenet was manually strangled, possibly at the same time of the strangulation, JonBenet's assailant repeatedly bashed her head and face against some household object, until she lost consciousness?

But the forensic evidence suggests the head bash and asphyxiation were separate events, some suggest the head bash was meant to make certain JonBenet was dead, others that it was staging to meant to complicate the evidence?

Johns statements to the police regarding his movements after he arrived back from the White's tell you he knew about JonBenet's death prior to 6AM Dec 26th, how else can they synchronise their statements, only Burke slips up and tells us JonBenet walked into the house.

John knows that the rest of the extended Ramsey family may not entirely buy his version of events, he knows they can ask difficult questions that the BPD cannot, so to forestall some questioning, he may have elected to suggest he discovered JonBenet's body earlier.

Curiously I cannot speculate that John did it and after finding JonBenet decided to stage a violent intruder homicide complete with duct-tape, garrote, and wrist ties etc, because Patsy and her matching fibers were upstairs at the alleged time of John discovering JonBenet's corpse.

No, somebody wanted JonBenet dead, since corpses do not speak its that simple!


.

[JMO8778]

That's what I was going by...JR's statement,and wondering if he intentionally said that,in order to throw suspicion off himself for the actual murder itself.
I meant to ask this earlier,but do you(UK) (or anyone else for that matter) think this murder was planned? I agree that it seems intentional;I've always thought so..one look at that huge crack and hole in JB's skull seems no accident to me.No way.
I ask about planned b/c of the way the R's behaved after the murder ..some of it seems similar to what they did beforehand..like maybe they went to the White's just to be seen with JB that evening,(and to throw suspicion onto them) ..and stopped by to drop off the baskets on the way home,again for the same reason.And what I find most suspect is they told the bigger kids to meet with them *after xmas.So it seems they didn't want them there then,on purpose,for some sinister reason?(I don't beleive JB would have been killed then if the big kids and the finance had been there..too many witnesses).Since JR was pretending to be such a family man,if that were true then it seems he would have wanted them all there on xmas day,esp to welcome the new fiance into the family.
As well as I recall PR saying they 'even had tickets to go on disney's big red boat'. (So what,that doesn't mean they didn't kill her).Maybe that was done on purpose,to make it appear they had plans?I'm suspect b/c in DOI,JR comments that "PR was even getting outfits ready for a pageant in Jan." ..as if he felt the need to show they had future plans w. JB,which seemed odd to me..of course they would,if they didnt plan to kill her.
IOW,the whole xmas scenerio ,and maybe even the days b/f it(or after the 23rd?,re: 911 call made then),could have been a ruse? Maybe someone(s) wanted to silence JB forever and it was planned?
Also...since the scream was heard coming from the basement,do you think she was slammed against a hard surface there and if so..what?
The most logical scenerio I can think of that fits is JB was taken to the basement,molested there,and either or both parents killed her after that.(Although I think some of the assualt was later staged w. the paintbrush handle, to cover for past abuse).Thx for any comments,you're certainly one of the most knowledgeable here !

[UKGuy]

That's what I was going by...JR's statement,and wondering if he intentionally said that,in order to throw suspicion off himself for the actual murder itself.
I meant to ask this earlier,but do you(UK) (or anyone else for that matter) think this murder was planned? I agree that it seems intentional;I've always thought so..one look at that huge crack and hole in JB's skull seems no accident to me.No way.
I ask about planned b/c of the way the R's behaved after the murder ..some of it seems similar to what they did beforehand..like maybe they went to the White's just to be seen with JB that evening,(and to throw suspicion onto them) ..and stopped by to drop off the baskets on the way home,again for the same reason.And what I find most suspect is they told the bigger kids to meet with them *after xmas.So it seems they didn't want them there then,on purpose,for some sinister reason?(I don't beleive JB would have been killed then if the big kids and the finance had been there..too many witnesses).Since JR was pretending to be such a family man,if that were true then it seems he would have wanted them all there on xmas day,esp to welcome the new fiance into the family.
As well as I recall PR saying they 'even had tickets to go on disney's big red boat'. (So what,that doesn't mean they didn't kill her).Maybe that was done on purpose,to make it appear they had plans?I'm suspect b/c in DOI,JR comments that "PR was even getting outfits ready for a pageant in Jan." ..as if he felt the need to show they had future plans w. JB,which seemed odd to me..of course they would,if they didnt plan to kill her.
IOW,the whole xmas scenerio ,and maybe even the days b/f it(or after the 23rd?,re: 911 call made then),could have been a ruse? Maybe someone(s) wanted to silence JB forever and it was planned?
Also...since the scream was heard coming from the basement,do you think she was slammed against a hard surface there and if so..what?
The most logical scenerio I can think of that fits is JB was taken to the basement,molested there,and either or both parents killed her after that.(Although I think some of the assualt was later staged w. the paintbrush handle, to cover for past abuse).Thx for any comments,you're certainly one of the most knowledgeable here !

JMO8778,

Yes JonBenet's death appears deliberate and intentional, whether it was premeditated is up for debate.

Current forensic science can tell you from what angle a skull was fractured, since prior theories have been disconfirmed by research conducted at the Body Farm where they research this subject using donated corpses.

And JonBenet's skull fracture appears to have been applied from behind with a slight angle to the initial impact, the fissures aparently can radiate outwards then back to the point of impact, causing anterior fissures, but dont quote me on this.

To me it seems her head fracture and asphyxiation were two separate events, both intending to make sure she was killed, dead, and the staging was applied to mask this?

JonBenet was not killed in the basement, thats why she was deposited down there and dressed to appear as if she had been abducted from her bed. All the evidence points to Patsy as the wine-cellar stager, so why would Patsy sexually assault JonBenet, when at this stage it was a kidnap-ransom that was being setup?

The other assumption you can make is that there may have been a prior staging that incorporated a sexual assault? But how does that work given there is no garrote, or size-12 underwear, who enters a millionaires house in the middle of the night to strangle and fracture the skull of a 6-year old simply to engage in some digital penetration quoting Coroner Meyer?

Why did she need cleaned up, and wiped down, why were her size-6 pants removed, what sexual psychopath bothers to remove her underwear as a trophy, and is then concerned enough to redress her in size-12 pants?

It appears as if she was sexually assaulted first then cleaned up, and redressed to hide this, with Patsy possibly inserting the paintbrush to explain away the acute injury? Coroner Meyer will know if the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet?

I doubt she was sexually abused in the basement, the whole house was available for this purpose, e.g. the den, JR's bedroom etc. But JonBenet fits the profile of child being sexually abused, her pageant appearances could simply have been part and parcel of her grooming and induction into adult sexual behaviour.

The pageants may have fulfilled a psychological need in both parents, Patsy's has been well documented, less so has JR's, but it is worth noting that JonBenet's pageant role models will have been a prior generations little girl star's, or potential fantasy material for male pedophiles from that generation. In short who taught JonBenet her sexualized routines and were they incorporated into her sexual abuse?

There are private photographs of JonBenet which have not been made public, these may show JonBenet dressed in her pageant clothing, posing in a suggestive manner, why else the questioning or the search for further material in both of the Ramsey households? The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake.

Was JonBenet's death planned, its unlikely since its execution was a mess, to be blunt.

But I would suggest she was being sexually abused prior to her death, possibly incorporating her to be dressed up in pageant mode, she may have been taped or photographed, hence the missing tapes? So was JonBenet fed the pineapple literally as a sweetner prior to her abuse, did a sexual rage overtake her killer, because JonBenet found the courage to say no?



.

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

icedtea4me is asking According to John's statement which is a follow the dots kind of question.

.


Right, that's why I voted 4 hours - the question was about JR's statement. I just wanted to flesh out where the thread was going.

[Chrishope]

... her pageant appearances could simply have been part and parcel of her grooming and induction into adult sexual behaviour. ... .

Or purely coincidental. Other little girls, who have suffered no sexual abuse have also participated in these pagents.


.. Was JonBenet's death planned, its unlikely since its execution was a mess, to be blunt. ... .

If it were planned well in advance, I doubt the body would have been found in the house. The existance of the RN, along with the body, suggests the RN was an afterthought. They either didn't know how to go about dumping the body, or couldn't bring themselves to do it.

[Chrishope]

That's what I was going by...JR's statement,and wondering if he intentionally said that,in order to throw suspicion off himself for the actual murder itself.
I meant to ask this earlier,but do you(UK) (or anyone else for that matter) think this murder was planned? I agree that it seems intentional;I've always thought so..one look at that huge crack and hole in JB's skull seems no accident to me.No way.
I ask about planned b/c of the way the R's behaved after the murder ..some of it seems similar to what they did beforehand..like maybe they went to the White's just to be seen with JB that evening,(and to throw suspicion onto them) ..and stopped by to drop off the baskets on the way home,again for the same reason.And what I find most suspect is they told the bigger kids to meet with them *after xmas.So it seems they didn't want them there then,on purpose,for some sinister reason?(I don't beleive JB would have been killed then if the big kids and the finance had been there..too many witnesses).Since JR was pretending to be such a family man,if that were true then it seems he would have wanted them all there on xmas day,esp to welcome the new fiance into the family.
As well as I recall PR saying they 'even had tickets to go on disney's big red boat'. (So what,that doesn't mean they didn't kill her).Maybe that was done on purpose,to make it appear they had plans?I'm suspect b/c in DOI,JR comments that "PR was even getting outfits ready for a pageant in Jan." ..as if he felt the need to show they had future plans w. JB,which seemed odd to me..of course they would,if they didnt plan to kill her.
IOW,the whole xmas scenerio ,and maybe even the days b/f it(or after the 23rd?,re: 911 call made then),could have been a ruse? Maybe someone(s) wanted to silence JB forever and it was planned?
Also...since the scream was heard coming from the basement,do you think she was slammed against a hard surface there and if so..what?
The most logical scenerio I can think of that fits is JB was taken to the basement,molested there,and either or both parents killed her after that.(Although I think some of the assualt was later staged w. the paintbrush handle, to cover for past abuse).Thx for any comments,you're certainly one of the most knowledgeable here !

My guess is it was not pre-planned. At least not very far ahead. It was, as UKGuy said, a mess. The scenario is a mess too. By scenario I mean a RN and a body both in the same house. The only way I see to make sense of it (RN +body) is an intruder or the Rs did it but hadn't planned it, so needed to stage the sloppy scenario ? There is not of course enough credible evidence to believe the IDI version, and plenty of evidence for the RDI version. Lack of planning meant that before they could fully realize the result of their actions, they had a dead body and didn't know what to do with it ?

[UKGuy]

Or purely coincidental. Other little girls, who have suffered no sexual abuse have also participated in these pagents.



If it were planned well in advance, I doubt the body would have been found in the house. The existance of the RN, along with the body, suggests the RN was an afterthought. They either didn't know how to go about dumping the body, or couldn't bring themselves to do it.


Chrishope,
Or purely coincidental. Other little girls, who have suffered no sexual abuse have also participated in these pagents.

Examine the evidence, its not a lottery, I am not suggesting that you generalise what I think about JonBenet's abuse to other pageant participants, what needs explaining is the role the pageants played in the abuse of JonBenet!

Its not about Other little girls its about Patsy and John and why a millionaires daughter requires pageants to form a sense of identity. Most people have opinions about why Patsy allowed JonBenet to participate, but what about John? The man who allegedly is on record as stating he did not want his daughter taking part in the Royal Miss Nationals when they moved to Las Vegas, why, Patsy told Pam that John didn't want his six-year-old daughter exposed to Vegas!

So what makes Vegas different, at other pageants and subsequent ones, JonBenet perfects her walk, her turns, her wave, and her adult poses, but John says not Vegas, how come?

Who purchased JonBenet's videos, who allowed her to fall asleep most nights viewing them, mostly Shirley Temple videos? In the 1995 Boulder Christmas Parade, she sang and waved from a float named the Good Ship Lollipop which was built by her grandfather, so possibly the penchant for this theme runs in the family?

On a wall, down in the basement, were three framed movie posters: Star Trek, Somewhere in Time, and the third depicting Spencer Tracey and Frank Sinatra in The Devil at 4 O'Clock. Profilers are on record stating that many of the pedophiles they arrest seem to be Trekkies and belong to its online subculture!

So the Shirley Temple, Spencer Tracey, and Frank Sinatra generation of role models were not forgotten in the Ramsey household, nope they were up on the walls, framed, and on video for JonBenet to view.

So who was Shirley Temple's proposer, Patsy, John or Grandfather?



.

[Becba]

So John is basically slipping up. Getting the first trip to the basement mixed up with the time he "found" JonBenet.

[Chrishope]

So John is basically slipping up. Getting the first trip to the basement mixed up with the time he "found" JonBenet.

Yeah, that's the explanation that makes most sense to me.

[icedtea4me]

So John is basically slipping up. Getting the first trip to the basement mixed up with the time he "found" JonBenet.Yes, because it was during that first trip alone, I believe, is when he went to check on her, so to speak. And I distinctly remember hearing John say "downscares" instead of "downstairs".


-Tea

[Chrishope]

Examine the evidence, its not a lottery, I am not suggesting that you generalise what I think about JonBenet's abuse to other pageant participants, what needs explaining is the role the pageants played in the abuse of JonBenet!


We simply don't know, do we? JB's mother was Miss WV, as was her aunt. This was a big thing in PR's life, I can see why she might think it's proper for her daughter to participate in pagents. And if one doesn't start young, one probably won't be successful.

I think JB was sexually molested, prior to the 25/26th, but whether that has anything at all to do with pagents is pure speculation, as far as I can see.

It could be that pagent participation played right into paedo fantasies. It could also be completely coincidental.


Its not about Other little girls its about Patsy and John and why a millionaires daughter requires pageants to form a sense of identity. Most people have opinions about why Patsy allowed JonBenet to participate, but what about John? The man who allegedly is on record as stating he did not want his daughter taking part in the Royal Miss Nationals when they moved to Las Vegas, why, Patsy told Pam that John didn't want his six-year-old daughter exposed to Vegas!


Again, because of her mother's success in the pagents. JB could have formed some other identity, but PR wasn't likely to encourage her to be a cop or a lawyer, etc. Patsy's ticket to success was the pagents, so I don't see anything at all odd in her encouraging JB in this. JR probably went along because that's what PR wanted.


So what makes Vegas different, at other pageants and subsequent ones, JonBenet perfects her walk, her turns, her wave, and her adult poses, but John says not Vegas, how come?



Why not Vegas? It is known as sin city. Very religious people sometimes have an objection to the place, just because of it's gambling and "loose" morals. I can't really explain the thinking, because I'm not religious, but I know certain conservative churches tend to frown on Vegas.


Who purchased JonBenet's videos, who allowed her to fall asleep most nights viewing them, mostly Shirley Temple videos? In the 1995 Boulder Christmas Parade, she sang and waved from a float named the Good Ship Lollipop which was built by her grandfather, so possibly the penchant for this theme runs in the family?


Possibly. I'd think ST would be a great role model - that is, if one wanted one's daughter participating in pagents. Perhaps they hoped JB would pick up some manerisms?


On a wall, down in the basement, were three framed movie posters: Star Trek, Somewhere in Time, and the third depicting Spencer Tracey and Frank Sinatra in The Devil at 4 O'Clock. Profilers are on record stating that many of the pedophiles they arrest seem to be Trekkies and belong to its online subculture!


Interesting, but I don't know that there is evidence that a high percentage of Trekies are peados.


So the Shirley Temple, Spencer Tracey, and Frank Sinatra generation of role models were not forgotten in the Ramsey household, nope they were up on the walls, framed, and on video for JonBenet to view.


Not sure what you're getting at. I can't see FS or ST as a role model for a little girl. FS had some success in movies, but much more success as a singer.


So who was Shirley Temple's proposer, Patsy, John or Grandfather?
.

I don't know. My guess - Patsy.

[JMO8778]

Why not Vegas? It is known as sin city. Very religious people sometimes have an objection to the place, just because of it's gambling and "loose" morals. I can't really explain the thinking, because I'm not religious, but I know certain conservative churches tend to frown on Vegas.
From a businessman's standpoint,that may be why JR didn't want her there.Going to church and keeping a clean image can be imprt.Not that dressing her up like a 21 yo was any better,but it wasn't Vegas either.

[icedtea4me]

I see there have been two votes placed for "seven hours", yet I don't see the word "seven" in John Ramsey's statement. Maybe it's that I'm not seeing it, like it's in some kind of invisible type. Could someone help me out here and show me where "seven" is in what John said?


-TeaI'm still waiting for an answer to my query, especially from those of you who chose "seven hours" as your vote.


-Tea

[Eagle1]

JMO8778,

Yes JonBenet's death appears deliberate and intentional, whether it was premeditated is up for debate.

It appears as if she was sexually assaulted first then cleaned up, and redressed to hide this, with Patsy possibly inserting the paintbrush to explain away the acute injury? Coroner Meyer will know if the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet?

I doubt she was sexually abused in the basement, the whole house was available for this purpose, e.g. the den, JR's bedroom etc. But JonBenet fits the profile of child being sexually abused, her pageant appearances could simply have been part and parcel of her grooming and induction into adult sexual behaviour.

The pageants may have fulfilled a psychological need in both parents, Patsy's has been well documented, less so has JR's, but it is worth noting that JonBenet's pageant role models will have been a prior generations little girl star's, or potential fantasy material for male pedophiles from that generation. In short who taught JonBenet her sexualized routines and were they incorporated into her sexual abuse?.......

The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake........

Was JonBenet's death planned, its unlikely since its execution was a mess, to be blunt.......

But I would suggest she was being sexually abused prior to her death, possibly incorporating her to be dressed up in pageant mode, she may have been taped or photographed, hence the missing tapes? So was JonBenet fed the pineapple literally as a sweetner prior to her abuse, did a sexual rage overtake her killer, because JonBenet found the courage to say no?


Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Probably it was after this that someone told her to expect another visit from Santa after Christmas, a secret, not to tell anyone. It was planned at least that long, I think, maybe longer if reports are true about hate propagandists in other parts of the country (Charlevoix, Waterford, Mi., maybe Seattle or Shreveport, depending on what that letter was about) destroying sympathy for the R's well in advance.

["The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake."] .......

Good point.

Couple of things about PR that your post brings to mind. (1) As a woman, I can't break my paint brushes, not even the smaller ones. (2) As a mother, I'm sure no mother would put size 12 panties on her six yr old.,,, Unless, of course, she knew that would throw suspicion on some man rather than her.

You see, to be fair and balanced, as O'Reilly says, I sometimes argue both sides, but never exclude either side as suspects. There were very odd things about several of the "friends". Something very strange going on.

[JMO8778]

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Probably it was after this that someone told her to expect another visit from Santa after Christmas, a secret, not to tell anyone. It was planned at least that long,
That's what I think,too,unless it was an acute attack of rage that caused her death.The visit after xmas was either a plan to do away with her(b/f she had a chance to talk to other relatives that they would see on the trip the next day ..and maybe even Stewart,the med student?) or to attempt another molestation.It's just that I think it was a parent telling her this..and not PR.Although I don't rule her out as the killer.
UK,what do you think? JR would have more reason to do away with her,but PR seemed to be the most volitile one.(done out of jealousy, perhaps?)

[UKGuy]

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Probably it was after this that someone told her to expect another visit from Santa after Christmas, a secret, not to tell anyone. It was planned at least that long, I think, maybe longer if reports are true about hate propagandists in other parts of the country (Charlevoix, Waterford, Mi., maybe Seattle or Shreveport, depending on what that letter was about) destroying sympathy for the R's well in advance.

["The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake."] .......

Good point.

Couple of things about PR that your post brings to mind. (1) As a woman, I can't break my paint brushes, not even the smaller ones. (2) As a mother, I'm sure no mother would put size 12 panties on her six yr old.,,, Unless, of course, she knew that would throw suspicion on some man rather than her.

You see, to be fair and balanced, as O'Reilly says, I sometimes argue both sides, but never exclude either side as suspects. There were very odd things about several of the "friends". Something very strange going on.

Eagle1,

["The photographing of children in this manner is something pedophiles habitually undertake."] .......

Good point.


Another aspect to consider is what appears innocent photography, since its setting and theme is pageant led, can also be motivated by deviant pedophile motives. The photographer knowing full well that the photographs have a cover story of being about pageants.

Replying to your last question first, "did a sexual rage overtake her killer because JonBenet found the courage to say no?" This rage would have started at the party on the 23rd, I believe, when she was allegedly found crying on some back steps, and probably was making the interrupted 911 call. That was a way of saying no.

Possibly, something occurred then that has been hushed up, I wonder if any of the participants that were there were later recruited by the Ramsey's as a form of insurance?


Many people blame the BPD for being inept and inexperienced, its just as likely that there was a conspiracy, and that the lea bungling was allowed to happen. There are only two reasons for a conspiracy to have been developed 1. Political, 2. Criminal; and 2. seems to be a prime candidate here? There was a conspiracy after the event since all three Ramsey's colluded to either refuse to cooperate, synchronise their evidence, or maintain a silence!


.

[UKGuy]

From a businessman's standpoint,that may be why JR didn't want her there.Going to church and keeping a clean image can be imprt.Not that dressing her up like a 21 yo was any better,but it wasn't Vegas either.

JMO8778,

mmmm, or a cover story, that imputes some spurious kind of morality to JR, just as churchgoing, and having Christian fellow travelors such as Lou Smit, who accept donations, and all sing from the same hymn sheet.

A clean image a millionaire who funds his daughters pageant expenses from the age of 4, rather than sending her to a private school which will instruct her in whatever the relevant social graces are?

Why should anyone notice JonBenet in Vegas?

Pageants and Christianity are two smoke screens in the dysfunctional Ramsey family lifestyle.

If JR thought Vegas was wrong then morally so are all the others, and he should have told Patsy so, and paid for JonBenet to go to an acting school, a dancing school, whatever.


.

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

mmmm, or a cover story, that imputes some spurious kind of morality to JR, just as churchgoing, and having Christian fellow travelors such as Lou Smit, who accept donations, and all sing from the same hymn sheet.
good thought,I didn't think of that.Right on about LS.

A clean image a millionaire who funds his daughters pageant expenses from the age of 4, rather than sending her to a private school which will instruct her in whatever the relevant social graces are? She did go to private school,if I recall right,although it wasn't instruction for social grace.
I'm not sure the public in general looks down on pageants for kids,as they're considered training for later ones when they're older,in which of course they have to have a clean image.What I have a problem with,as I guess others do too,is making them look much older,like JB did with all that makeup on.And the clothes that were way too sexual for her age.

Why should anyone notice JonBenet in Vegas? True,I don't know how much circulation the pics would have gotten if she hadn't died.

Pageants and Christianity are two smoke screens in the dysfunctional Ramsey family lifestyle. ITA ! I've always thought the church thing was just for business show in the community.And PR would have likely pushed JB into the pageant world,at all costs,and even if she didn't want to.

If JR thought Vegas was wrong then morally so are all the others, and he should have told Patsy so, and paid for JonBenet to go to an acting school, a dancing school, whatever.


.It was a dance school she went to, wasn't it? Personally I think gymnastics/tumbling etc is more apppropriate for that age.

[UKGuy]

good thought,I didn't think of that.Right on about LS.

She did go to private school,if I recall right,although it wasn't instruction for social grace.
I'm not sure the public in general looks down on pageants for kids,as they're considered training for later ones when they're older,in which of course they have to have a clean image.What I have a problem with,as I guess others do too,is making them look much older,like JB did with all that makeup on.And the clothes that were way too sexual for her age.

True,I don't know how much circulation the pics would have gotten if she hadn't died.

ITA ! I've always thought the church thing was just for business show in the community.And PR would have likely pushed JB into the pageant world,at all costs,and even if she didn't want to.

It was a dance school she went to, wasn't it? Personally I think gymnastics/tumbling etc is more apppropriate for that age.


JMO8778,


I've always thought the church thing was just for business show in the community. And PR would have likely pushed JB into the pageant world,at all costs,and even if she didn't want to.

So you can also infer that The Pageant thing was just for public show, to conceal any domestic events from the community

What we dont know is to what extent JR encouraged JonBenet to practise and participate in pageants? e.g. was Shirley Temple, a favorite of the Grandfather, John or both?


.

[goddess]

Wow, that sounds like a blatant admission that he indeed found his child well before the 'official' time.

[coloradokares]

JMO8778,


So you can also infer that The Pageant thing was just for public show, to conceal any domestic events from the community

What we dont know is to what extent JR encouraged JonBenet to practise and participate in pageants? e.g. was Shirley Temple, a favorite of the Grandfather, John or both?


.
Well JonBenet kicked Patsy at a paegant. I am not sure what could be inferred from that. But JonBenet said to a family friend I don't feel pretty anymore. How devastating is that? I think Jonnie B did like the pageants at a point. But I think she also would have had to have had a lot of little girl in her that wanted to come out and be loved for who she was. Not made into. JMHO

[UKGuy]

Well JonBenet kicked Patsy at a paegant. I am not sure what could be inferred from that. But JonBenet said to a family friend I don't feel pretty anymore. How devastating is that? I think Jonnie B did like the pageants at a point. But I think she also would have had to have had a lot of little girl in her that wanted to come out and be loved for who she was. Not made into. JMHO

coloradokares,

I have no doubt that Jonbenet was probably a willing particpant in the pageants, attracted by the glamour, sequins, and adult encouragement.


But JonBenet said to a family friend I don't feel pretty anymore.

This if correct underlines just what JonBenet thought she was being motivated to achieve.

Not feeling pretty, soiling and wetting yourself, appear to be JonBenet rebelling?


But I think she also would have had to have had a lot of little girl in her that wanted to come out and be loved for who she was. Not made into. JMHO
Yes, and did she realize something was very dysfunctional in her family?

What was the deal in the Paugh/Ramsey financial affairs, I read somewhere Nedra's attitude was that the income was there to be spent. Was Patsy pressured to enrol JonBenet in pageants, did they all collude in dressing up JonBenet, and showing her the adult poses, was sexual abuse the unspoken agreement, the silent deal, which the pageants covered up?


.

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

I have no doubt that Jonbenet was probably a willing particpant in the pageants, attracted by the glamour, sequins, and adult encouragement.


This if correct underlines just what JonBenet thought she was being motivated to achieve.

Not feeling pretty, soiling and wetting yourself, appear to be JonBenet rebelling?


Yes, and did she realize something was very dysfunctional in her family?

What was the deal in the Paugh/Ramsey financial affairs, I read somewhere Nedra's attitude was that the income was there to be spent. Was Patsy pressured to enrol JonBenet in pageants, did they all collude in dressing up JonBenet, and showing her the adult poses, was sexual abuse the unspoken agreement, the silent deal, which the pageants covered up?


.
UK I am quite sure all of what you said in repsonse played a huge part. I doubt Patsy was pressured to enroll JonBenet in pageants. That was Patsy's thing. Nedra's too and a thing that seemed well rooted in the Paugh side of the family. But all the collusion in this with Nedra and Patsy and Aunt Pam ....oh probably so. The Vegas thing and Marilyn Monroe thing was supposedly Nedras brain trust. Was sexual abuse the unspoken agreement. How do you prove that? You can suspect it but till someone out and out goes before the jury and testifies that there was more than acute sexual abuse evident at the autopsy. You'll not get Dr. Buef to agree. However I think enough is known about the signs of sexual abuse that its hard to not see the signs. However, at this point how does one prove who was her abuser. After 10 years we are needing a miracle to have justice for JonBenet. I said yesterday on a forum that the Ramseys spent their fortune to keep themselves out of jail and create the impression of reasonable doubt, not to find JonBenet's murderer. JMO How do Public Relation firms find killers? Also their own hired investigators never really have come up with a thing....but to spin doubt about DNA ....Johns just spoke more on that on LKL.

[SuperDave]

I said yesterday on a forum that the Ramseys spent their fortune to keep themselves out of jail and create the impression of reasonable doubt, not to find JonBenet's murderer. JMO How do Public Relation firms find killers? Also their own hired investigators never really have come up with a thing....but to spin doubt about DNA ....Johns just spoke more on that on LKL.

How about the part in John's depo where he admits they never even read the reports from their own investigators?

[coloradokares]

How about the part in John's depo where he admits they never even read the reports from their own investigators?
No kidding.. but they hired the very best money could buy. Im impresssed.

[SuperDave]

No kidding.

[JMO8778]

No kidding.. but they hired the very best money could buy. Im impresssed.Yea,that's just it..and I think most innocent parents would not only have read them,they'd probably have them memorized right down to every last word and statement.I know I would.

[coloradokares]

Yea,that's just it..and I think most innocent parents would not only have read them,they'd probably have them memorized right down to every last word and statement.I know I would.
You of course know I was being totally facetious, right? They hired them to keep them out of jail not to find an intruder. I mean how does one find the perfect intruder. It has taken them their investigators and all the kings horses and all the kings men to create one JMK .... and try to make it fit.

[JMO8778]

You of course know I was being totally facetious, right? They hired them to keep them out of jail not to find an intruder. I mean how does one find the perfect intruder. It has taken them their investigators and all the kings horses and all the kings men to create one JMK .... and try to make it fit.yes,I knew,I totally agree,and I think the R spin team will forever be looking for ways to link Karr to the murder.

[coloradokares]

yes,I knew,I totally agree,and I think the R spin team will forever be looking for ways to link Karr to the murder.
Yezzzz and Fleet White Linda Hoffman Pugh Jeff Merrick.... the butcher the baker the candlestick maker . Santa Claus:doh:

[Camper]

From the 1998 A&E documentary The Ramseys vs The Media -

John Ramsey: The American public has been led to believe that we went to bed that night on Christmas, brutally beat JonBenet, sexually molested her, strangled her, woke up the next morning, wrote a three-page ransom note,called the police, sat around the house for four hours then I went down and discovered her body - Then was able to act distraught.

thewebsafe.tripod.com/09281998aedocumentary.htm


According to John's statement, how many hours had elapsed between the time the police were called and his discovering JonBenet's body in the basement?


-Tea
__________________
Then you had reach in to unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in face forward or a turned around. Probably turned around, turn around backwards and put your needs on the ledge here and let your feet in and then just drop down. That's probably how I would have done it? - John Ramsey during his June 1998 interrogation telling Det Lou Smit how he climbed into the basement window after he had broken it in the summer of 1996.




--->>>That June 1998 interrogation should have taken JR directly to the striped jail cell spa.

"Probably turned around, turn around backwards and put your needs(?) on the ledge here and let your feet in and then just drop down.That's probably how I wouldhave done it?"

There used to be a radio show broadcast out of Lansing or Detroit when I was tiny, that was called, "Lets Pretend", his non functioning memory on HOW he actually did IT, is revealing.

My time questimate is around 4 hours, BUT why was he looking when the police were there? Even his ex friend FW searched his own home when his little girl was hiding, he called her name and looked for her. Maybe he was more curious than JR ever thought to be.

.
.

[JMO8778]

__________________
Then you had reach in to unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in face forward or a turned around. Probably turned around, turn around backwards and put your needs on the ledge here and let your feet in and then just drop down. That's probably how I would have done it? - John Ramsey during his June 1998 interrogation telling Det Lou Smit how he climbed into the basement window after he had broken it in the summer of 1996.




--->>>That June 1998 interrogation should have taken JR directly to the striped jail cell spa.

"Probably turned around, turn around backwards and put your needs(?) on the ledge here and let your feet in and then just drop down.That's probably how I wouldhave done it?"

There used to be a radio show broadcast out of Lansing or Detroit when I was tiny, that was called, "Lets Pretend", his non functioning memory on HOW he actually did IT, is revealing.

My time questimate is around 4 hours, BUT why was he looking when the police were there? Even his ex friend FW searched his own home when his little girl was hiding, he called her name and looked for her. Maybe he was more curious than JR ever thought to be.

.
.That's just it.I've been in a missing person situation b/f.The R's were wayyyyy too passive.Note or not,they would have been ripping and tearing that house apart looking for JB or any evidence,had they not known where she was,only stopping long enough to call police, while getting right back to searching the house(for that matter,the yard and nborhood, too).Stuff would have been flying right and left.No stone would have been left unturned.Jr would have been in the car driving around searching the nborhood and his yard as well.JR would have req. the friends to drive around and search,too.Instead,PR sits in the sunroom,they call friends over(even tho note says not to),and JR appears to be very cordial...NOT !
I think that's why Officer French said something didn't feel right...it wasn't.