Idle Thought

[Jay78]

i was just sitting here thinking. I realize this is probably dead wrong, but the thought popped into my mind so i thought i would post it. Do you think its possible that Patsy offered her daughter as some kind of sacrifice? when you consider that it was christmas day (or early morning of the next day) when she was killed and consider the ransom note, with the SBTC which could be Saved By The Cross, is it possible she saw some kind of religious significance in her daughters death? again, i realize its not the case, just a thought.

[UKGuy]

i was just sitting here thinking. I realize this is probably dead wrong, but the thought popped into my mind so i thought i would post it. Do you think its possible that Patsy offered her daughter as some kind of sacrifice? when you consider that it was christmas day (or early morning of the next day) when she was killed and consider the ransom note, with the SBTC which could be Saved By The Cross, is it possible she saw some kind of religious significance in her daughters death? again, i realize its not the case, just a thought.

Jay78,

Yes, some people think its a distinct possibility, particularly for those that think Patsy may have had a personality disorder, or mental illness such as schitzophrenia, or even as a consequence of her cancer treatement and stress etc.


.

[narlacat]

Jay
Search through for BrotherMoon's posts, he is convinced PR had a mental disorder (DID).
He is also obsessed with 'The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie' in relation to Patsy.

Maybe he is closer to the truth than any of us, I don't know.

[JMO8778]

I don't know,perhaps more after the fact than before?To make herself feel better about her death? Like when she went into reasons JB was better off dead on tv.
I suspect she was mentally ill as well,and maybe JB wasn't turning out the way she wanted her to..soiling herself,rebelling,etc.,so that led to her murder? I recall ST saying 'this would never do for a beauty queen',as if that were a hint. ..PR thinking if JB wasn't going to be a beauty queen after all,or live up to what one should be like,that her life wouldn't be worth anything?JAT.

[coloradokares]

Jay78,

Yes, some people think its a distinct possibility, particularly for those that think Patsy may have had a personality disorder, or mental illness such as schitzophrenia, or even as a consequence of her cancer treatement and stress etc.


.
You know I have written on this time and again. You are not by any means alone on your thoughts on this. Far cry from alone on those thoughts.

[Nuisanceposter]

You can add me to the list of people who think Patsy was mentally ill. Mental illness takes many forms, and often people can present a pretty face outside of home and be a total mess behind closed doors. My pet theory for years has been that Patsy suffered some kind of meltdown, a break with reality, so to speak, and when it passed, JonBenet was lying in a crumpled heap on the floor.

[Becba]

You can add me to the list of people who think Patsy was mentally ill. Mental illness takes many forms, and often people can present a pretty face outside of home and be a total mess behind closed doors. My pet theory for years has been that Patsy suffered some kind of meltdown, a break with reality, so to speak, and when it passed, JonBenet was lying in a crumpled heap on the floor.
I think Patsy's melt down was JonBenet being molested by John. It posed a threat to Patsy. She dressed her up and made he what Patsy thought was her. But perhaps POatsy's Dad molested her and when Patsy's husband molested JonBenet it was just too much.
John is an enigma. Like my dad.

[philamena]

i was just sitting here thinking. I realize this is probably dead wrong, but the thought popped into my mind so i thought i would post it. Do you think its possible that Patsy offered her daughter as some kind of sacrifice? when you consider that it was christmas day (or early morning of the next day) when she was killed and consider the ransom note, with the SBTC which could be Saved By The Cross, is it possible she saw some kind of religious significance in her daughters death? again, i realize its not the case, just a thought.
To answer your question...absolutely, positively, NOT.
It's my humble opinion that JBR wasn't offered for a sacrifice on Christmas Day, nor would she have been sacrificed any day of the year. Her death IMO was an accident casued by her mom, covered up by dad and lied about for 10 years.

[Jay78]

i dont think the sexual abuse theories are that far off. I think it was in PMPT where it stated that Patsy asked her housekeeper how to get the spark back in her sex life. perhaps john couldnt handle her being unable to have intercourse with him while she was sick?

[JMO8778]

You can add me to the list of people who think Patsy was mentally ill. Mental illness takes many forms, and often people can present a pretty face outside of home and be a total mess behind closed doors. My pet theory for years has been that Patsy suffered some kind of meltdown, a break with reality, so to speak, and when it passed, JonBenet was lying in a crumpled heap on the floor. I had posted about acute decompensation awhile back..that's what it's called when that happens to someone mentally ill.They can no longer compensate for their illness,and something dangerous to themselves or to someone else can happen.Sometimes it doesn't take much to set it off,particularly if the person is under stress at the time.

[coloradokares]

I had posted about acute decompensation awhile back..that's what it's called when that happens to someone mentally ill.They can no longer compensate for their illness,and something dangerous to themselves or to someone else can happen.Sometimes it doesn't take much to set it off,particularly if the person is under stress at the time.
Yes ..... They can be literally having a good time one moment and its like a bomb went off.

[Ames]

i was just sitting here thinking. I realize this is probably dead wrong, but the thought popped into my mind so i thought i would post it. Do you think its possible that Patsy offered her daughter as some kind of sacrifice? when you consider that it was christmas day (or early morning of the next day) when she was killed and consider the ransom note, with the SBTC which could be Saved By The Cross, is it possible she saw some kind of religious significance in her daughters death? again, i realize its not the case, just a thought.
Even though I think that there is something to the bedwetting theory...I could be wrong. I have wondered about this sacrifice thing too. Patsy could have sacrificed her, because she had a mental disorder, and thought that JB's sacrifice would cure her cancer. Sorta like an exchange..."God, you cure me of my cancer and my pain, and I will give my daughter back to you".

[Ames]

i dont think the sexual abuse theories are that far off. I think it was in PMPT where it stated that Patsy asked her housekeeper how to get the spark back in her sex life. perhaps john couldnt handle her being unable to have intercourse with him while she was sick?
Question:...I have read...and I do NOT know how true it is, that the Housekeeper said that one Halloween, JB was dressed as a witch. She said that when she saw JB, that she commented on her costume. JB replied with "I'm a sexy little witch". Patsy, came into the room as JB was saying this, and agreed saying "Yes, JB is a sexy little witch". I thought this was an odd thing to say. I believe that JB was four at the time. I am sure that John and Patsy had no sex life at all, while she was undergoing cancer treatment...and probably even before the treatments started, because she was in so much pain. Maybe he was turning to his six year old daughter (the thought disgusts ME!)

[Jay78]

Question:...I have read...and I do NOT know how true it is, that the Housekeeper said that one Halloween, JB was dressed as a witch. She said that when she saw JB, that she commented on her costume. JB replied with "I'm a sexy little witch". Patsy, came into the room as JB was saying this, and agreed saying "Yes, JB is a sexy little witch". I thought this was an odd thing to say. I believe that JB was four at the time. I am sure that John and Patsy had no sex life at all, while she was undergoing cancer treatment...and probably even before the treatments started, because she was in so much pain. Maybe he was turning to his six year old daughter (the thought disgusts ME!)
as gross as it is, it is entirely possible, IMO.

[Ames]

as gross as it is, it is entirely possible, IMO.
Unfortunately things like this happen every second of everyday. I do not believe that the Ramsey's were immune from it.

[icedtea4me]

I am sure that John and Patsy had no sex life at all, while she was undergoing cancer treatment...and probably even before the treatments started, because she was in so much pain. Maybe he was turning to his six year old daughter (the thought disgusts ME!)I think the whole sordid mess started when that taboo line was crossed as John and JonBenet were comforting one another at some point during this ordeal.


-Tea

[JMO8778]

I think the whole sordid mess started when that taboo line was crossed as John and JonBenet were comforting one another at some point during this ordeal.


-TeaThat, and I wonder if his oldest daughter's death made him want to be closer to JB?So that was his way of doing it?Maybe emotional pain causes ppl do things they wouldnt normally do.

[Ames]

I think the whole sordid mess started when that taboo line was crossed as John and JonBenet were comforting one another at some point during this ordeal.


-Tea
I have read on another board, about this speculation. There could be ALOT to it. John could have turned to JB for a couple of reasons....because Patsy was in too much pain for "sexual relations"....AND because John was "comforting" JB..and helping her get through her mother's illness.

[SuperDave]

It's called situational molestation.

[Eagle1]

In the thread "Uses for a Celtic Harp" at CTV's JonBenet forum, someone gives a friends' arrival timeline. That forum looks so much like this one I sometimes forget which one I'm in, and how long I've got for an edit, so you can hopefully skip over my inconsequential post to somebody there who's also a member here. The timeline is worth going there for, I assure you.

The friends who supposedly were called that morning would have had a whole list of things to do before getting into their cars. Anyone ever timed themselves getting read for work? How long does shaving take, making a cup of coffee, brushing teeth, getting dressed, etc., etc., besides driving time?

Didn't some of them get there in 10 minutes from across town? The Whites no longer lived on 15th St., two doors away, in case anyone's thinking they still lived there.

I've always wondered if they'd been there all night, and calling them over was just another lie for those of you who may be making a list of lies. Solace? There had been a light snow just before morning. So were there any definitely fresh tire tracks to prove the friends had just arrived that morning? Anyone know how to find that out? There were some bicycle tracks, probably a paper boy's.

[Ames]

In the thread "Uses for a Celtic Harp" at CTV's JonBenet forum, someone gives a friends' arrival timeline. That forum looks so much like this one I sometimes forget which one I'm in, and how long I've got for an edit, so you can hopefully skip over my inconsequential post to somebody there who's also a member here. The timeline is worth going there for, I assure you.

The friends who supposedly were called that morning would have had a whole list of things to do before getting into their cars. Anyone ever timed themselves getting read for work? How long does shaving take, making a cup of coffee, brushing teeth, getting dressed, etc., etc., besides driving time?

Didn't some of them get there in 10 minutes from across town? The Whites no longer lived on 15th St., two doors away, in case anyone's thinking they still lived there.

I've always wondered if they'd been there all night, and calling them over was just another lie for those of you who may be making a list of lies. Solace? There had been a light snow just before morning. So were there any definitely fresh tire tracks to prove the friends had just arrived that morning? Anyone know how to find that out? There were some bicycle tracks, probably a paper boy's.
Good point...but why would the Ramsey's invite them over after leaving the White's when they had a plane to catch the next morning? OR...are you saying that maybe, Patsy CALLED them over that night, after they all got home? Why, in your opinion, would the Ramsey's do that? So, do you think that the "kidnapping" happened earlier than previously thought? And thats why she called them over that night? Or do you think that maybe, the Christmas party at the White's, just moved to the Ramsey's house for some reason? I was just curious as to why you thought that the friends would have been called over earlier than the Ramsey's stated.

[IrishMist]

In the thread "Uses for a Celtic Harp" at CTV's JonBenet forum, someone gives a friends' arrival timeline. That forum looks so much like this one I sometimes forget which one I'm in, and how long I've got for an edit, so you can hopefully skip over my inconsequential post to somebody there who's also a member here. The timeline is worth going there for, I assure you.

The friends who supposedly were called that morning would have had a whole list of things to do before getting into their cars. Anyone ever timed themselves getting read for work? How long does shaving take, making a cup of coffee, brushing teeth, getting dressed, etc., etc., besides driving time?

Didn't some of them get there in 10 minutes from across town? The Whites no longer lived on 15th St., two doors away, in case anyone's thinking they still lived there.

I've always wondered if they'd been there all night, and calling them over was just another lie for those of you who may be making a list of lies. Solace? There had been a light snow just before morning. So were there any definitely fresh tire tracks to prove the friends had just arrived that morning? Anyone know how to find that out? There were some bicycle tracks, probably a paper boy's.

But there is a big difference between getting ready for work, and answering a frantic call from a friend to COME OVER RIGHT NOW! In that instance, I think it would be more the case of throwing on some clothes, getting out the door, and probably some speeding.

[Eagle1]

OR...are you saying that maybe, Patsy CALLED them over that night, after they all got home? .... And thats why she called them over that night? Or do you think that maybe, the Christmas party at the White's, just moved to the Ramsey's house for some reason? I was just curious as to why you thought that the friends would have been called over earlier than the Ramsey's stated.

As you said, Ames, Maybe the party moved to the Ramsey house like you said, disregarding their having informed everyone they were leaving early the next morning. I don't think there was any kidnapping, and I don't think you think that either. So I'll skip over that.

I'm saying maybe Patsy never called them to come over at all! Some of you are making a collection of Ramsey lies. Wouldn't you like to add this about calling the friends over as a very possible lie?

Maybe, and this really is a stretch I admit in advance but we may need to practice stretching, because we're getting nowhere with the same old few things to discuss, maybe FW and one of the guests had been out caroling when the R's left, so they decided, maybe a little drunk, to go over to the R's, and party down.

McSanta wouldn't have been with them, or maybe they even called him, and the others, if, if, if he was involved, and I hear he was twice almost arrested, heart attack or not. I must give credit to another poster for inventing the "if, if, if" expression, which is just to emphasize "if" a lot.

I'm saying we haven't heard of any proof that the friends had just recently arrived, or that they'd been there all night, either way. Nobody thought to ask about that or look for evidence about it at the time. The most we've heard about tracking was that there were no footprints, correct? The concrete was dry, don't know about the street, and if there should have been any wet, maybe icy, prints on the concrete.

Maybe not all of them were there all night, maybe just some of them, or, maybe none, but some things suggest we need to think about the possibility. I can't think of any way it could be ruled out, can you?

Maybe they were more than a little drunk, the some of them who just possibly may have gone over there. I'd just like to know what you think.

[Ames]

As you said, Ames, Maybe the party moved to the Ramsey house like you said, disregarding their having informed everyone they were leaving early the next morning. I don't think there was any kidnapping, and I don't think you think that either. So I'll skip over that.

I'm saying maybe Patsy never called them to come over at all! Some of you are making a collection of Ramsey lies. Wouldn't you like to add this about calling the friends over as a very possible lie?

Maybe, and this really is a stretch I admit in advance but we may need to practice stretching, because we're getting nowhere with the same old few things to discuss, maybe FW and one of the guests had been out caroling when the R's left, so they decided, maybe a little drunk, to go over to the R's, and party down.

McSanta wouldn't have been with them, or maybe they even called him, and the others, if, if, if he was involved, and I hear he was twice almost arrested, heart attack or not. I must give credit to another poster for inventing the "if, if, if" expression, which is just to emphasize "if" a lot.

I'm saying we haven't heard of any proof that the friends had just recently arrived, or that they'd been there all night, either way. Nobody thought to ask about that or look for evidence about it at the time. The most we've heard about tracking was that there were no footprints, correct? The concrete was dry, don't know about the street, and if there should have been any wet, maybe icy, prints on the concrete.

Maybe not all of them were there all night, maybe just some of them, or, maybe none, but some things suggest we need to think about the possibility. I can't think of any way it could be ruled out, can you?

Maybe they were more than a little drunk, the some of them who just possibly may have gone over there. I'd just like to know what you think.
Hmmmm, could be. But, I am sure that the friends were questioned about it, and what would they gain from lying? And what would the Ramsey's gain from lying about the time frame of their friend's arrival? That...it seems...would be THE question here. What do you think their motive would have been?

[Eagle1]

....
And what would the Ramsey's gain from lying about the time frame of their friend's arrival? That...it seems...would be THE question here. What do you think their motive would have been?

Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet.

If they didn't have something to hide about exactly when the friends arrived, why would they lie (?) that they'd just called them and they'd just come?

I just have a strong hunch, can't prove it just as nobody can prove anythihg, that some, maybe not all, of the friends may even have been there all night.

I saw your post about having a yearbook in elementary school. Okay. We didn't until graduating from h.s.

Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on. I think it happened again at the party on the 23rd and JonBenet having learned her parents weren't going to pay any attention tried to call a halt to it by attempting the 911 call. (Many posters years ago said they found that FW's mom was getting ready for a party, wasn't in a hospital, the cover story when Susan Stine wouldn't let police in, talked to them through a door intercom. (Just because it was there? Wouldn't you think they would have insisted on coming in, and maybe even tried to get a warrant?)

[Ames]

Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet.



Gottcha...I had never thought about that before.

[Eagle1]

Probably John was also afraid of this gang, if my suspicions are at all correct, another motive to downplay the confrontation with FW, etc., and give a version of the arrival home, putting the kids to bed, etc., which sounds perfectly normal, until these discrepances in the arrival times of the friends next morning.

Years ago, it was common knowledge that a worldwide pedo ring had been busted in Boulder, but now I can't find anything about it by googling. Huge coverup, I guess, meaning they probably didn't get all of them, and I'm NOT saying one was necessarily involved in the JonBenet case, but JR just may have thought of the possibility, may have known someone for all we know that he may have been afraid of. I acknowledge there were lots of lies, not just the Ramseys either, imo.

I think the poster at Court TV got the detailed arrival timeline from the ACandyRose site, you'll want to read if you haven't already. I can't quote it from memory, sorry. It's just logic that it would have been difficult or impossible for someone to get there in 10 min. from almost across town. I can be getting in my car to go somewhere, gathering up my purse, my list, and whatever else I need to take, opening garage door, looking house doors, unlocking car, and all that can take between 5 and 10 minutes before I know it. After the showering/getting dressed/brushing teeth/having even instant coffee/getting coat and shoes, etc. There may have been a few red lights, also. Remember, I said this is all conjecture on my part, everyone. I make no claims whatsoever as to what really happened, wasn't there.

[Solace]

Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet.

If they didn't have something to hide about exactly when the friends arrived, why would they lie (?) that they'd just called them and they'd just come?

I just have a strong hunch, can't prove it just as nobody can prove anythihg, that some, maybe not all, of the friends may even have been there all night.

I saw your post about having a yearbook in elementary school. Okay. We didn't until graduating from h.s.

Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on. I think it happened again at the party on the 23rd and JonBenet having learned her parents weren't going to pay any attention tried to call a halt to it by attempting the 911 call. (Many posters years ago said they found that FW's mom was getting ready for a party, wasn't in a hospital, the cover story when Susan Stine wouldn't let police in, talked to them through a door intercom. (Just because it was there? Wouldn't you think they would have insisted on coming in, and maybe even tried to get a warrant?)Eagle. If I am reading this correctly, you are speculating that the friends and the Ramseys were having a sex party with JonBenet. All these friends are coming over and having a party with one child?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Another poster said something to the effect that John may have gravitated towards JonBenet since the loss of his first daughter who he was almost inconsolable over and Patsy was distant, I could see that happening.


I cannot see the former and frankly, I think if someone were to come in on this read such as a pro Ramsey pal, they would rightfully think we were out of our minds. This is a rage accident. It is not a Rosemary's baby type party where everyone is having sex with a six year old, unless I have the above theory wrong. :cool:

[Veronica10]

Eagle. If I am reading this correctly, you are speculating that the friends and the Ramseys were having a sex party with JonBenet. All these friends are coming over and having a party with one child?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Another poster said something to the effect that John may have gravitated towards JonBenet since the loss of his first daughter who he was almost inconsolable over and Patsy was distant, I could see that happening.


I cannot see the former and frankly, I think if someone were to come in on this read such as a pro Ramsey pal, they would rightfully think we were out of our minds. This is a rage accident. It is not a Rosemary's baby type party where everyone is having sex with a six year old, unless I have the above theory wrong. :cool:
Solace, right on. I could not agree more.

[Solace]

Solace, right on. I could not agree more.
Glad to hear that Veronica, because when these murder cases deteriorate to this kind of speculation, I feel like it is a total waste of time. There are some really good theories posted today alone, such as JMO's theory that possibly Patsy was trying to put the red turtle neck on JB so she did not have to dress her in the early am and a fight ensued ending in JB's death. That sounds incredibly likely. I am also not dismissing the molesting theory, because the physical evidence definitely points to it. But that could have been happening without Patsy's knowledge and frankly I think it is more than likely it did. Patsy does seem way too self-involved to let anyone smite her like that.

[Veronica10]

You know Solace, this kind of wild speculation reminds me of the pro-ramsey camp. Crazy speculation like maybe the intruder brought the pineapple in a tupperware container into the house, because after all Patsy denied JB eating it...

No offense to anyone here but any talk of sex parties and the like turns me off. I think JB's murder is pretty much what it seems to be...a wildly stressed mom freaks the hell out, a rage incident occurs, then a transparently silly cover-up ensues. I don't mean to imply that any of this tragedy is silly.

OT - Solace, you are very spunky, I enjoy reading your posts.

[IrishMist]

You know Solace, this kind of wild speculation reminds me of the pro-ramsey camp. Crazy speculation like maybe the intruder brought the pineapple in a tupperware container into the house, because after all Patsy denied JB eating it...

No offense to anyone here but any talk of sex parties and the like turns me off. I think JB's murder is pretty much what it seems to be...a wildly stressed mom freaks the hell out, a rage incident occurs, then a transparently silly cover-up ensues. I don't mean to imply that any of this tragedy is silly.

OT - Solace, you are very spunky, I enjoy reading your posts.

I have to agree, Veronica. I think when it comes down to it, KISS is the way to go.

[Veronica10]

I have to agree, Veronica. I think when it comes down to it, KISS is the way to go.
KISS? Not sure what this is.

[IrishMist]

KISS? Not sure what this is.

Sorry, I thought everyone knew that. :blushing:

KISS= Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Or, less offensively:

KISS=Keep It Simple, Silly

[Solace]

You know Solace, this kind of wild speculation reminds me of the pro-ramsey camp. Crazy speculation like maybe the intruder brought the pineapple in a tupperware container into the house, because after all Patsy denied JB eating it...

No offense to anyone here but any talk of sex parties and the like turns me off. I think JB's murder is pretty much what it seems to be...a wildly stressed mom freaks the hell out, a rage incident occurs, then a transparently silly cover-up ensues. I don't mean to imply that any of this tragedy is silly.

OT - Solace, you are very spunky, I enjoy reading your posts.Veronica. Thank you. I enjoy reading yours also. I also agree with you. This murder is pretty much what it seems to be. Like most things are pretty much what they appear to be.

I also read a very interesting article on a recent documentary on the Ramseys shown in England (I think SuperDave posted it). The author of the article comments on John Ramsey's reactions in the documentary; one of which is the following: he is asked if he killed his daughter and with his head down, shakes his head yes a few times and then (almost as if he realized the question) he shakes his head no and says I would have given my life for her.

If someone were to ask me if I killed my child would I shake my head yes (even if John would like us to believe it was in response to the fact that he knew the question would be asked, as if to say, here we go again) I DOUBT I WOULD BE SHAKING MY HEAD YES. I really believe that subconscious mind is very hard to overrule at times.

This is not to say that John did the actually killing, but imo, he knows who did. The whole murder is so bizarre, not because of the murder itself (murders of children are always horrific) but the fact that they keep a high profile, going on LKL, giving interviews, etc. (I find that so bizarre because the crime is just so sad). Okay, say Patsy did it and John and Patsy decide there is no good to come of their going to jail; they have to think of Berke and Patsy is probably going to die within 5 years, why go to jail). I can see that conversation taking place. BUT to hammer it in to the public through interviews instead of quietly slipping away and moving away, I just find it bizarre. They are constantly reliving it.

[Eagle1]

I never said all the friends were having a sex party with JonBenet, couldn't imagine that myself, since I don't know how sex parties are done, anything about them. At one forum years ago the owner knew about S&M and all the other games for adults, but I don't remember any of that.

So many times, the RDI's have put words in my mouth that I never dreamed of, this isn't meant to sound sarcastic,any more than your sayings are, just a real question, that maybe I'm not the only thing or person you're misunderstanding, reason you can just jump to conclusions about this case that professional LE's can't.

I once knew a man who was getting senile and used to say "Keep It Simple Stupid" all the time, embarrassed that he couldn't keep up with things any more. Wasn't a problem solver, that's for sure. You couldn't get mad at him, but couldn't explain the simplest thing to him either. You don't want to risk being stereotyped as one of those, do you?

If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right?

[Ames]

Eagle. If I am reading this correctly, you are speculating that the friends and the Ramseys were having a sex party with JonBenet. All these friends are coming over and having a party with one child?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Another poster said something to the effect that John may have gravitated towards JonBenet since the loss of his first daughter who he was almost inconsolable over and Patsy was distant, I could see that happening.


I cannot see the former and frankly, I think if someone were to come in on this read such as a pro Ramsey pal, they would rightfully think we were out of our minds. This is a rage accident. It is not a Rosemary's baby type party where everyone is having sex with a six year old, unless I have the above theory wrong. :cool:

I agree with you. I told Eagle that I had never thought of that before. But, I don't think that is what happened that night.

[Solace]

I never said all the friends were having a sex party with JonBenet, couldn't imagine that myself, since I don't know how sex parties are done, anything about them. At one forum years ago the owner knew about S&M and all the other games for adults, but I don't remember any of that.

So many times, the RDI's have put words in my mouth that I never dreamed of, this isn't meant to sound sarcastic,any more than your sayings are, just a real question, that maybe I'm not the only thing or person you're misunderstanding, reason you can just jump to conclusions about this case that professional LE's can't.

I once knew a man who was getting senile and used to say "Keep It Simple Stupid" all the time, embarrassed that he couldn't keep up with things any more. Wasn't a problem solver, that's for sure. You couldn't get mad at him, but couldn't explain the simplest thing to him either. You don't want to risk being stereotyped as one of those, do you?

If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right?
Eagle: This is what you posted:

"Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet." So what did you mean by that? I am really trying to understand. What do you mean by after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet?


And: "If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right? " Why would I be kidding? I am responding to your post.

And yet: Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on. I think it happened again at the party on the 23rd and JonBenet "

Eagle, All of the above sounds like a "sex party" to me. If you did not mean that, what did you mean?

As far as there being no proof that the friends came over that morning, Officer French was the first one on the scene, he would have known if there were others there. My point is if we are going to discuss this case, then let's discuss it rationally; To say there is no proof that the friends were not there all night is grasping at straws for a new "theory". Lawrence Schiller and Steve Thomas both say in their books that the friends arrived that morning.

[Solace]

I agree with you. I told Eagle that I had never thought of that before. But, I don't think that is what happened that night.
Hi Ames, I think it was a rage killing. The red turtleneck in a ball on the floor of the bathroom, all the hair ties all over the bathroom floor. JMO came up with an excellent theory and the soundest one I have heard of so far. Maybe she did want to dress her for the morning and rage ensued with JB dying. Whether there was molestation going on, SuperDave has posted very credible evidence that there was. I never believed that was true, even after I read Cyril Wecht's account. But SD's post were very damning. Either there was some severe corporal punishment by Patsy in the form of douching or someone was molesting JonBenet.

Ames your posts are well researched. Love reading them. Thank you.:D

[Ames]

Hi Ames, I think it was a rage killing. The red turtleneck in a ball on the floor of the bathroom, all the hair ties all over the bathroom floor. JMO came up with an excellent theory and the soundest one I have heard of so far. Maybe she did want to dress her for the morning and rage ensued with JB dying. Whether there was molestation going on, SuperDave has posted very credible evidence that there was. I never believed that was true, even after I read Cyril Wecht's account. But SD's post were very damning. Either there was some severe corporal punishment by Patsy in the form of douching or someone was molesting JonBenet.

Ames your posts are well researched. Love reading them. Thank you.:D

:blushing: Thank you, I love reading your posts too!!

I just think that the red turtleneck has more to do with this, than anyone thinks.

[Solace]

[QUOTE=Ames]:blushing: Thank you, I love reading your posts too!!

Glad you are here. I read ST book and his theory was very good, but I could not understand about the turtleneck - meaning when and how it happened that it was thrown on the floor like that. I just could not see it happening that morning. It just seems that Patsy was exhausted in the evening and her patience was wearing very thin. She gave them pineapple, no doubt. Her prints are there on the bowl. So she is lying. Period. JB was up and ate it. She does not want her up at all - she would have to explain too much. So lets just say she is asleep and that is that. End of that line of questions that we will have to endure.

But what our other poster, JMO, presents - Patsy wanting to put the turtleneck on her before bed makes sense. She is tired and wants possibly to dress her partially the night before and there is an argument from JB. The hair ties are all over the place on the bathroom floor. She is throwing JB around. She is only 40 pounds. She could have done this thing in the bathroom and JB hit her head very hard againt the sink or the bathtup. I am more inclined to believe that she fell very hard against the bathtub and that is where the beginning of the injury hit her at the base of her head and spread. This really is more than an accident - it is just pure rage. As I see it.

I really believe Patsy self-medicated all the time and so she really does not have control of her emotions and when she is tired, she is lethal.

[Ames]

[QUOTE=Ames]:blushing: Thank you, I love reading your posts too!!

Glad you are here. I read ST book and his theory was very good, but I could not understand about the turtleneck - meaning when and how it happened that it was thrown on the floor like that. I just could not see it happening that morning. It just seems that Patsy was exhausted in the evening and her patience was wearing very thin. She gave them pineapple, no doubt. Her prints are there on the bowl. So she is lying. Period. JB was up and ate it. She does not want her up at all - she would have to explain too much. So lets just say she is asleep and that is that. End of that line of questions that we will have to endure.

But what our other poster, JMO, presents - Patsy wanting to put the turtleneck on her before bed makes sense. She is tired and wants possibly to dress her partially the night before and there is an argument from JB. The hair ties are all over the place on the bathroom floor. She is throwing JB around. She is only 40 pounds. She could have done this thing in the bathroom and JB hit her head very hard againt the sink or the bathtup. I am more inclined to believe that she fell very hard against the bathtub and that is where the beginning of the injury hit her at the base of her head and spread. This really is more than an accident - it is just pure rage. As I see it.

I really believe Patsy self-medicated all the time and so she really does not have control of her emotions and when she is tired, she is lethal.
I believe that JB was actually wearing that turtleneck when she went to bed, whether she had worn it UNDER the white Gap shirt to the White' Party...OR...Patsy decided to put it on her for bed, so that she would dressed for the trip the following day. I don't know WHY JB was wearing it...I just believe that she was. I agree with you, I believe most likely that Patsy flew into a rage, and JB ended up with her head hitting the TUB. I not only believe that Patsy self medicated all the time as YOU believe...I also think that she may have had one cocktail too many at the White's (and she has admitted to having a couple in one of her interviews...so THAT tells me that she was drinking at the party). This could also be the reason that she flew into that rage. Alcohol makes people do what they normally wouldn't do. I want to clarify for all of the IDI's out there....I am NOT saying that Patsy was a drunk ...all that I am saying is that she could have possibly had one too many cocktails that night, at the party...therefore...making the rage scenario all the more plausable.

[Solace]

I believe that JB was actually wearing that turtleneck when she went to bed, whether she had worn it UNDER the white Gap shirt to the White' Party...OR...Patsy decided to put it on her for bed, so that she would dressed for the trip the following day. I don't know WHY JB was wearing it...I just believe that she was. I agree with you, I believe most likely that Patsy flew into a rage, and JB ended up with her head hitting the TUB. I not only believe that Patsy self medicated all the time as YOU believe...I also think that she may have had one cocktail too many at the White's (and she has admitted to having a couple in one of her interviews...so THAT tells me that she was drinking at the party). This could also be the reason that she flew into that rage. Alcohol makes people do what they normally wouldn't do. I want to clarify for all of the IDI's out there....I am NOT saying that Patsy was a drunk ...all that I am saying is that she could have possibly had one too many cocktails that night, at the party...therefore...making the rage scenario all the more plausable.Ames: But would not the red turtleneck be showing if it were beneath the white gap shirt. The top part of the turtleneck would have shown and I could swear I read somewhere that Fleet White or his wife, Fleet, I believe said she was wearing the white gap shirt.

Also, in one of her interviews she said she was taking xanax (highly addicting, highly) for panic attacks. When John was asked whether it would surprise him if he was told Patsy took medication for panic attacks, he said "yes it would". Mike Kane asked him that. John did not know that Patsy was taking xanax? I do not, do not, do not, believe him.

[Veronica10]

I believe that JB was actually wearing that turtleneck when she went to bed, whether she had worn it UNDER the white Gap shirt to the White' Party...OR...Patsy decided to put it on her for bed, so that she would dressed for the trip the following day. I don't know WHY JB was wearing it...I just believe that she was. I agree with you, I believe most likely that Patsy flew into a rage, and JB ended up with her head hitting the TUB. I not only believe that Patsy self medicated all the time as YOU believe...I also think that she may have had one cocktail too many at the White's (and she has admitted to having a couple in one of her interviews...so THAT tells me that she was drinking at the party). This could also be the reason that she flew into that rage. Alcohol makes people do what they normally wouldn't do. I want to clarify for all of the IDI's out there....I am NOT saying that Patsy was a drunk ...all that I am saying is that she could have possibly had one too many cocktails that night, at the party...therefore...making the rage scenario all the more plausable.
I agree about the cocktails...can you imagine how exhausted she must have been? Even a glass of wine makes me want to just lie down on the couch...I can't imagine getting home and having to finish packing and the million other things she had to do to get ready for the trip to Michigan (which she didn't want to take). Believe me I know how kids can get your blood pressure up too. I have three girls under 6 years old. I have lost it at times, maybe yelling at my girls when I should not have. But that night I think Patsy's dam burst...I think she had a ton of pent-up rage behind the perfection. The wine very well could have contributed to an explosion and subsequent wrong-thinking in not seeking help for JB and then, the infamous note and staging. Could her judgment have been impaired?

[Ames]

Ames: But would not the red turtleneck be showing if it were beneath the white gap shirt. The top part of the turtleneck would have shown and I could swear I read somewhere that Fleet White or his wife, Fleet, I believe said she was wearing the white gap shirt.

Yes, it would have shown...and I didn't know that Fleet had said that she was wearing ONLY the white Gap Shirt. If thats the case, then I believe that the RED turtle neck was put on her, right before bed.



Also, in one of her interviews she said she was taking xanax (highly addicting, highly) for panic attacks. When John was asked whether it would surprise him if he was told Patsy took medication for panic attacks, he said "yes it would". Mike Kane asked him that. John did not know that Patsy was taking xanax? I do not, do not, do not, believe him. Shoot....I do not believe that either. How would he not know that his wife was taking Xanax....that's insane.

[Ames]

I agree about the cocktails...can you imagine how exhausted she must have been? Even a glass of wine makes me want to just lie down on the couch...I can't imagine getting home and having to finish packing and the million other things she had to do to get ready for the trip to Michigan (which she didn't want to take). Believe me I know how kids can get your blood pressure up too. I have three girls under 6 years old. I have lost it at times, maybe yelling at my girls when I should not have. But that night I think Patsy's dam burst...I think she had a ton of pent-up rage behind the perfection. The wine very well could have contributed to an explosion and subsequent wrong-thinking in not seeking help for JB and then, the infamous note and staging. Could her judgment have been impaired?
Oh yes....it could have been....and I am guessing that it WAS.

[Solace]

Ames: But would not the red turtleneck be showing if it were beneath the white gap shirt. The top part of the turtleneck would have shown and I could swear I read somewhere that Fleet White or his wife, Fleet, I believe said she was wearing the white gap shirt.

Also, in one of her interviews she said she was taking xanax (highly addicting, highly) for panic attacks. When John was asked whether it would surprise him if he was told Patsy took medication for panic attacks, he said "yes it would". Mike Kane asked him that. John did not know that Patsy was taking xanax? I do not, do not, do not, believe him.
Ames, I am not positive about Fleet White saying that, but I could swear I read it. I will check it out and see if it is in any of the books I have.

[Eagle1]

I never said all the friends were having a sex party with JonBenet, couldn't imagine that myself, since I don't know how sex parties are done, anything about them. At one forum years ago the owner knew about S&M and all the other games for adults, but I don't remember any of that.

So many times, the RDI's have put words in my mouth that I never dreamed of, this isn't meant to sound sarcastic,any more than your sayings are, just a real question, that maybe I'm not the only thing or person you're misunderstanding, reason you can just jump to conclusions about this case that professional LE's can't.

I once knew a man who was getting senile and used to say "Keep It Simple Stupid" all the time, embarrassed that he couldn't keep up with things any more. Wasn't a problem solver, that's for sure. You couldn't get mad at him, but couldn't explain the simplest thing to him either. You don't want to risk being stereotyped as one of those, do you?

If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right?

Hi, Solace,

Since you asked the same question again after someone's "KISS" remark and my posting the above, I'm just saying the same thing again too, that okay I'll give you NO complicated explanations. You said you didn't want them and I don't want to waste my time either. Even if you're not the one who made the "KISS" remark, and I don't remember who that was or even care enough to look back, it goes to show what a waste of my time it would be to get drawn into any argument.

Like it or not, there just isn't enough evidence yet to prove anything one way or the other and having arguments wouldn't change that.

[Solace]

Hi, Solace,

Since you asked the same question again after someone's "KISS" remark and my posting the above, I'm just saying the same thing again too, that okay I'll give you NO complicated explanations. You said you didn't want them and I don't want to waste my time either. Even if you're not the one who made the "KISS" remark, and I don't remember who that was or even care enough to look back, it goes to show what a waste of my time it would be to get drawn into any argument.

Like it or not, there just isn't enough evidence yet to prove anything one way or the other and having arguments wouldn't change that.Eagle: You have my response confused with Veronicas. I believe Veronica did not know what KISS stood for and someone explained it to her.

[Solace]

Hi, Solace,

Since you asked the same question again after someone's "KISS" remark and my posting the above, I'm just saying the same thing again too, that okay I'll give you NO complicated explanations. You said you didn't want them and I don't want to waste my time either. Even if you're not the one who made the "KISS" remark, and I don't remember who that was or even care enough to look back, it goes to show what a waste of my time it would be to get drawn into any argument.

Like it or not, there just isn't enough evidence yet to prove anything one way or the other and having arguments wouldn't change that.
Hi Eagle;



So I take it you did not mean any of the following:



"Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet." or “Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on.”

No argument here Eagle. I just think this Board is about a discussion in reality not fiction. There is certainly enough evidence to prove that the guests arrived in the early morning, as Officer French arrived first and the guests later.

[WolfmarsGirl]

To answer your question...absolutely, positively, NOT.
It's my humble opinion that JBR wasn't offered for a sacrifice on Christmas Day, nor would she have been sacrificed any day of the year. Her death IMO was an accident casued by her mom, covered up by dad and lied about for 10 years.I totally agree with you Philamena! I think Patsy did this and covered it up on her own. It was an accident. At some point (probably on December 26th) John realized what Patsy did and silently went along with the game.

That being said, there is another possibility, although it is far-fetched. If you look at cases like Deanna Laney, you can almost see another scenario.

In a nutshell, Laney stoned her two older boys to death outside in the middle of the night and went back in the house to kill her infant son. Her husband heard the baby crying and asked Laney about the infant's distress. Laney, looney as could be, had the presence of mind to lie to hubby and tell him that the baby simply needed a diaper change. This lie sent the husband back to bed and allowed Laney to continue to bash the baby in the head with a stone.

Later, Laney herself called 911 to report the murders (baby survived, btw.)

If Patsy was as looney as Laney, (Laney was also a religious woman who saw visions) I can see a scenario where she sacrificed JBR and was heading to Burke's room next when John intervened, much like Laney's husband almost intervened. However, since John was all about apearances, he insisted that his crazed wife clean up her mess and cover up what she had done instead of confessing.

This might be the reason why the cover-up has "Patsy" written all over it. It also explains why Burke might have been awake and why he might have heard his parents arguing. It might be how John is involved and how he knew where to find the body. It would also explain the distance between Patsy and John on the 26th. He may not have let her complete the task at hand (by sacrificing the boy too.) And he may have forced the cover-up instead of a confession.

Again, I think this idea is far-fetched. The simplest answer is probably the correct one: Patsy killed her child by accident and covered it up.

[Solace]

I totally agree with you Philamena! I think Patsy did this and covered it up on her own. It was an accident. At some point (probably on December 26th) John realized what Patsy did and silently went along with the game.

That being said, there is another possibility, although it is far-fetched. If you look at cases like Deanna Laney, you can almost see another scenario.

In a nutshell, Laney stoned her two older boys to death outside in the middle of the night and went back in the house to kill her infant son. Her husband heard the baby crying and asked Laney about the infant's distress. Laney, looney as could be, had the presence of mind to lie to hubby and tell him that the baby simply needed a diaper change. This lie sent the husband back to bed and allowed Laney to continue to bash the baby in the head with a stone.

Later, Laney herself called 911 to report the murders (baby survived, btw.)

If Patsy was as looney as Laney, (Laney was also a religious woman who saw visions) I can see a scenario where she sacrificed JBR and was heading to Burke's room next when John intervened, much like Laney's husband almost intervened. However, since John was all about apearances, he insisted that his crazed wife clean up her mess and cover up what she had done instead of confessing.

This might be the reason why the cover-up has "Patsy" written all over it. It also explains why Burke might have been awake and why he might have heard his parents arguing. It might be how John is involved and how he knew where to find the body. It would also explain the distance between Patsy and John on the 26th. He may not have let her complete the task at hand (by sacrificing the boy too.) And he may have forced the cover-up instead of a confession.

Again, I think this idea is far-fetched. The simplest answer is probably the correct one: Patsy killed her child by accident and covered it up.
Wolfsmargirl: I know the case you speak of and Patsy is not in the same category. If she were, John would not be able to shut her up, if she believed she was doing the right thing. At some point she would blab it all - because she was insane at the time.

This is an accident an aided and abetted accident. And all 3 members of the family are lyng at some point.

[Eagle1]

Wolfsmargirl: I know the case you speak of and Patsy is not in the same category. If she were, John would not be able to shut her up, if she believed she was doing the right thing. At some point she would blab it all - because she was insane at the time.

This is an accident an aided and abetted accident. And all 3 members of the family are lyng at some point.

Sure everyone it seems lied at some point, and/or just made mistakes due to the extreme tension and shock that would affect anybody in their situation.

Yes, you said it, this theory was far-fetched. If PR had been insane she would have in some way blabbed it all.

It's just not a simple case at all. Or LE would have had to solve it instead of letting it go cold.

I've already told about a person who was getting senile and knew it being embarrassed about not understanding as well as others in a group, who heard the saying "Keep it Simple, Stupid" and frequently used it. Which brands and stereotypes you, destroys your credibility. Let's don't fall into that trap. This is a complicated case, unique in some ways.

[SuperDave]

Not insane, but very possibly disturbed.

[coloradokares]

Not insane, but very possibly disturbed.
Bingo!! :clap:

[Toltec]

There was nobody at the Ramsey home but the Ramseys. Patsy is mentally ill. In this excerpt from DOI paperback version, she literally confesses to the crime. The color purple in which she dressed JonBenet in...(John said that JonBenet looked beautiful in her purple dress Christmas Eve.) Patsy tells us the meaning of SBTC.....meaning of the gravestone inscripture...

The Color Purple:

PATSY: In a way that I did not recognize at the time, there had been strange premonitions of ill during the previous Christmas season. I had ignored them. Yet now, some of those "nudges" came back to haunt me.

One of these strange events had occurred while I was decorating the big Fraser fir tree in our living room. I kept making trips back and forth downstairs, where most of the decorations were kept. Greenery, sild poinsettias, and ornaments were stored on shelves in the back room of our basement. As I unloaded the cabinets, getting everything out for the Christmas tree decorating, I had noticed a large roll beautiful purple velvet ribbon on one of the shelves. I reached up and took it down. Usually I decorated with gold, red, or green, but on that day the color purple particularly caught my eye.

Why not? I thought. Purple would be a different look this year. The family won't expect it. And it could be beautiful.

For a moment I held the roll of ribbon up to the light, noticing how striking it was. Perfect, I said to myself. I think this will be a nice touch. With the ribbon in hand, I started back upstairs to trim the tree.

I took the roll into the living room and started interweaving the ribbon throught the branches. I like the effect so much that the richly colored velvet sort of took over in prominence and gave the Fraser fir a decidedly purple cast. The family loved the look of the beautifully decorated tree. Maybe I'd started a new tradition, I thought.

Now my mind wandered back to that moment, and I began thinking about that one large Christmas tree. The velvet ribbon suddenly flashed into my mind. I could once again vividly see the purple strands running from branch to branch around the tree. At that moment, another image opened up before my eyes.

Purple was always used at St. John's Episcopal Church during the season of Lent. I remembered that on Good Friday the cross in the center of the altar was draped with a sheath of purple cloth. Father Rol and the ladies of the altar guild adorned the alter in purple to remind us that Christ had died on this profoundly significant day. Suddently the two seasons blended together in my mind.

Advent and lent. Both are marked with the color purple!

In a strange and unexpected way, I had unconsciously woven death into the fabric of our Christmas celebration, and, of course, couldn't have imagined in my wildest nightmare how the 1996 Christmas season would end for us. I couldn't help but feel that there had been a premonition in my selecting purple ribbon for our Christmas tree. Without an awareness of its significance, I had placed the meaning of Lent in the midst of our celebration of the nativity. Beconing to the future, the use of the deeep purple ribbon suggested that what began in the cradle would end on the cross.

When I later shared my premonition with a friend, she told me that purple is particularly significant to Christians because it blends the colors of red and blue. Anglicans often think of blue as the color that symbolizes mankind or humanity. Of course, red represents our redemption throught the shed blood of Christ.As the red and blue come together in purple, it becomes a symbolic way of telling the world that "God is present" with mankind. As those ideas worked in my mind, another connection began to form. An assurance had been handed to our family with the presence of the color purple. As God was present in the crucifixion of Jesus, in ways that we couldn't grasp or understand, he was also presentin the tragic death of our daughter. In the extreme pain of our loss, God the Father was standing near with his hand upon the Ramsey family, as interwoven in our lives as the ribbon on the tree.

Purple did have a place after all.....

Does anyone see the meaning of SBTC?

The position of JonBenet's body....crucifixion?

[Solace]

There was nobody at the Ramsey home but the Ramseys. Patsy is mentally ill. In this excerpt from DOI paperback version, she literally confesses to the crime. The color purple in which she dressed JonBenet in...(John said that JonBenet looked beautiful in her purple dress Christmas Eve.) Patsy tells us the meaning of SBTC.....meaning of the gravestone inscripture...

The Color Purple:

PATSY: In a way that I did not recognize at the time, there had been strange premonitions of ill during the previous Christmas season. I had ignored them. Yet now, some of those "nudges" came back to haunt me.

One of these strange events had occurred while I was decorating the big Fraser fir tree in our living room. I kept making trips back and forth downstairs, where most of the decorations were kept. Greenery, sild poinsettias, and ornaments were stored on shelves in the back room of our basement. As I unloaded the cabinets, getting everything out for the Christmas tree decorating, I had noticed a large roll beautiful purple velvet ribbon on one of the shelves. I reached up and took it down. Usually I decorated with gold, red, or green, but on that day the color purple particularly caught my eye.

Why not? I thought. Purple would be a different look this year. The family won't expect it. And it could be beautiful.

For a moment I held the roll of ribbon up to the light, noticing how striking it was. Perfect, I said to myself. I think this will be a nice touch. With the ribbon in hand, I started back upstairs to trim the tree.

I took the roll into the living room and started interweaving the ribbon throught the branches. I like the effect so much that the richly colored velvet sort of took over in prominence and gave the Fraser fir a decidedly purple cast. The family loved the look of the beautifully decorated tree. Maybe I'd started a new tradition, I thought.

Now my mind wandered back to that moment, and I began thinking about that one large Christmas tree. The velvet ribbon suddenly flashed into my mind. I could once again vividly see the purple strands running from branch to branch around the tree. At that moment, another image opened up before my eyes.

Purple was always used at St. John's Episcopal Church during the season of Lent. I remembered that on Good Friday the cross in the center of the altar was draped with a sheath of purple cloth. Father Rol and the ladies of the altar guild adorned the alter in purple to remind us that Christ had died on this profoundly significant day. Suddently the two seasons blended together in my mind.

Advent and lent. Both are marked with the color purple!

In a strange and unexpected way, I had unconsciously woven death into the fabric of our Christmas celebration, and, of course, couldn't have imagined in my wildest nightmare how the 1996 Christmas season would end for us. I couldn't help but feel that there had been a premonition in my selecting purple ribbon for our Christmas tree. Without an awareness of its significance, I had placed the meaning of Lent in the midst of our celebration of the nativity. Beconing to the future, the use of the deeep purple ribbon suggested that what began in the cradle would end on the cross.

When I later shared my premonition with a friend, she told me that purple is particularly significant to Christians because it blends the colors of red and blue. Anglicans often think of blue as the color that symbolizes mankind or humanity. Of course, red represents our redemption throught the shed blood of Christ.As the red and blue come together in purple, it becomes a symbolic way of telling the world that "God is present" with mankind. As those ideas worked in my mind, another connection began to form. An assurance had been handed to our family with the presence of the color purple. As God was present in the crucifixion of Jesus, in ways that we couldn't grasp or understand, he was also presentin the tragic death of our daughter. In the extreme pain of our loss, God the Father was standing near with his hand upon the Ramsey family, as interwoven in our lives as the ribbon on the tree.

Purple did have a place after all.....

Does anyone see the meaning of SBTC?

The position of JonBenet's body....crucifixion?Hi Toltec: I don't know if I can read what you are reading into this. HOWEVER, I do firmly believe in the power of the subconscious mind (which gives us the "order of the day") and for some reason she has a feeling. Why? And this is not farfetched at all. It was on her mind. She also said when she was wrapping the doll, she pictured JonBenet in a coffin. That is very telling, especially since her daughter died shortly afterward, supposedly by her hand.

[Toltec]

Anyone have any thoughts on my post?

[narlacat]

Anyone have any thoughts on my post?Well, I agree PR was mentally ill, did LE ever get her medical records?

[Toaster]

Anyone have any thoughts on my post?The color purple is also that of Royalty and I think Patsy's such a nut case that subconciously Patsy thought she was a Queen and wasn't going to let her kingdom crumble by JB blabbing about John molesting her so she and John did what they had to to keep their Kingdom from crumbling.

[Nuisanceposter]

Anyone have any thoughts on my post?(P)sycho ***** talking crazy? I don't know about anyone else, but in my opinion, Patsy comes off as sounding not only completely self-absorbed but loonier than a lab monkey in that passage, desperately trying to find some explanation for her daughter's death that will save her from herself. I find it particularly disturbing that she's going on and on and on about sacrifice and death and makes no mention whatsoever of any concern for her daughter. She's decided JB was a sacrifice that God wanted and is okay with that, because God is right there to comfort her. Christians like Patsy, who turn it into a religion that serves them instead of them serving God, are what's wrong with Christianity today.

Toaster, I like the way you go ahead and just speak your mind.

I'd really like to know why Patsy's medical records would be held back, other than there's something there her attys don't want getting out - like her history of being a nutjob who needs but isn't getting help for all her issues. I'd really like to know just what life was like in the Paugh household where Patsy grew up as the favorite, and how that played into her role as wife and mother.

[UKGuy]

Anyone have any thoughts on my post?

Toltec,

If Patsy was mentally ill, then the text you quoted was a clever piece of rhetoric, imo, its less about the color than introducing the context of religion.

Others might suggest Patsy is simply rationalising a tragic event and attempting to interpret prior events into a religious framework?

Thats how it comes over to me.


Also if Patsy was so mentally ill, and this is possible, I know that mental illness can be hidden in families behind a facade of conservative appearance, why did John seek to go along with the staging and subsequent collusion?


.

[Solace]

The color purple is also that of Royalty and I think Patsy's such a nut case that subconciously Patsy thought she was a Queen and wasn't going to let her kingdom crumble by JB blabbing about John molesting her so she and John did what they had to to keep their Kingdom from crumbling.
Toaster: I don't know that I would say Patsy is mentally ill. I think her stress level was overwhelming - just the time of year alone, the amount of visiting they were doing - the parties they had (and not small ones by any means), the pageants that Patsy kept going alone are stressful). She had cancer and the last surgery on her was incredible - this woman is strong. She is capable of incredible strength. I think she is also capable of incredible rage.

Might characterize her as disturbed in a sense (just because of the pageants and how detrimental I think they are for children). But others see her as fine.

[coloradokares]

Toltec,

If Patsy was mentally ill, then the text you quoted was a clever piece of rhetoric, imo, its less about the color than introducing the context of religion.

Others might suggest Patsy is simply rationalising a tragic event and attempting to interpret prior events into a religious framework?

Thats how it comes over to me.


Also if Patsy was so mentally ill, and this is possible, I know that mental illness can be hidden in families behind a facade of conservative appearance, why did John seek to go along with the staging and subsequent collusion?


.
John frankly imho would not have wanted to raise Burke alone. Also if he felt it was accidental would he want the damage to Access Graphics subsid of Lockheed, also Patsy had cancer would he want to see her die in prison of cancer for an accident. Nope staging was the only possible way. And here is the chilling part. It worked?

[coloradokares]

Toaster: I don't know that I would say Patsy is mentally ill. I think her stress level was overwhelming - just the time of year alone, the amount of visiting they were doing - the parties they had (and not small ones by any means), the pageants that Patsy kept going alone are stressful). She had cancer and the last surgery on her was incredible - this woman is strong. She is capable of incredible strength. I think she is also capable of incredible rage.

Might characterize her as disturbed in a sense (just because of the pageants and how detrimental I think they are for children). But others see her as fine.
Solace I, like you have an opinion and let me share it incase you have not seen it pror. I think Patsy can appear fine even better than fine, charming brilliant and a supermom. While you peel back that facade you will find chaos of the home. It was always about credit for doing it. Being the leader the showpiece and the charm. Behind the scenes it'd of taken two maids a nanny and a personal PR team to make it all come together harmoniosly Thankfully she had the money. But I think I recognize from all accounts of people who actually knew them. But the things behind the scenes. Maybe Borderline Personality disorder and Bipolar. When riding high they are brillian. Mega JonBenet fits that like a glove. But for as charming as Patsy could be and she was honeysuckle off the vine....... she could be a spit fire in a split second. Bipolar. I have seen it in my own family. Brilliant noteworthy even. Then knock out the softball coach. And master manipulators. Add a whimsey of Narcissism. Its a train wreck heading somewhere. I know they say she was on certain meds for depression and anxiety for cancer treatment. What if it was more? To my knowledge Patsy's medical reports were not acquired. She is gone now. But with Mary Lacey at the helm I don't think I'll hold my breath as we wait to see if they will get them. If so was it ever properly diagnosed? Or treated medication wise by symptoms? But the elements when you listen and read about Patsy make someone who has seen it up close ....wonder...
This is only my opinion?

[Solace]

Solace I, like you have an opinion and let me share it incase you have not seen it pror. I think Patsy can appear fine even better than fine, charming brilliant and a supermom. While you peel back that facade you will find chaos of the home. It was always about credit for doing it. Being the leader the showpiece and the charm. Behind the scenes it'd of taken two maids a nanny and a personal PR team to make it all come together harmoniosly Thankfully she had the money. But I think I recognize from all accounts of people who actually knew them. But the things behind the scenes. Maybe Borderline Personality disorder and Bipolar. When riding high they are brillian. Mega JonBenet fits that like a glove. But for as charming as Patsy could be and she was honeysuckle off the vine....... she could be a spit fire in a split second. Bipolar. I have seen it in my own family. Brilliant noteworthy even. Then knock out the softball coach. And master manipulators. Add a whimsey of Narcissism. Its a train wreck heading somewhere. I know they say she was on certain meds for depression and anxiety for cancer treatment. What if it was more? To my knowledge Patsy's medical reports were not acquired. She is gone now. But with Mary Lacey at the helm I don't think I'll hold my breath as we wait to see if they will get them. If so was it ever properly diagnosed? Or treated medication wise by symptoms? But the elements when you listen and read about Patsy make someone who has seen it up close ....wonder...
This is only my opinion?
Hi Colorado. Nice to see you again.

I think that probably 99% of the population is walking around with bipolar disorder in one form or another. If each one of us walked into a psych's office, a great number would come away with medication for bi-polar disorder. Doesn't mean we are nuts, just "a little bit out of whack".

So it would not surprise me if she were to be diagnosed with that condition. But this is far from mentally disturbed - when I hear mentally disturbed, I think of someone who pretty much cannot form thoughts and is fairly paranoid, etc. Someone I would not want to be around.

I think she lost it that night and with the combination of the stress and the medication I WOULD BE MONEY SHE IS TAKING, and maybe a glass or two of wine and factor in EXHAUSTION, she lost it big time. I could see her losing it with JonBenet, who is use to getting what she wants.

[UKGuy]

John frankly imho would not have wanted to raise Burke alone. Also if he felt it was accidental would he want the damage to Access Graphics subsid of Lockheed, also Patsy had cancer would he want to see her die in prison of cancer for an accident. Nope staging was the only possible way. And here is the chilling part. It worked?

coloradokares,

Well that was one big risk to take was it not, how was John to know Patsy would not be arrested, and it would all fall apart?


.

[coloradokares]

Hi Colorado. Nice to see you again.

I think that probably 99% of the population is walking around with bipolar disorder in one form or another. If each one of us walked into a psych's office, a great number would come away with medication for bi-polar disorder. Doesn't mean we are nuts, just "a little bit out of whack".

So it would not surprise me if she were to be diagnosed with that condition. But this is far from mentally disturbed - when I hear mentally disturbed, I think of someone who pretty much cannot form thoughts and is fairly paranoid, etc. Someone I would not want to be around.

I think she lost it that night and with the combination of the stress and the medication I WOULD BE MONEY SHE IS TAKING, and maybe a glass or two of wine and factor in EXHAUSTION, she lost it big time. I could see her losing it with JonBenet, who is use to getting what she wants.
So you don't think Bipolar is disturbed. Well hmmmm.... I'd have to write a book on it to explain what its like to have a loved one diagnosed with this disorder and the chaotic train wreck that is left in its wake. Trust me I think your right that any number of us could go to our own personal physicians and get valium. Not the same thing. Bipolar demands its everyone else they are fine add bpd and like I say recipe for disaster. It is a serious mental illness based in brain chemistry and carries the highest suicidal rate next to Schizoaffective or Schizphernia. One bad thing is Bipolar is the new buzz. So lots of doctors are hanging it on patients that really are not. There is some really good research to be had out there. Or even Patty Dukes book. But I honestly in my own opinion think this is possible.

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Well that was one big risk to take was it not, how was John to know Patsy would not be arrested, and it would all fall apart?


.
He was going to move heaven and eath to see to it that never happened. And he is goal and success oriented. He usually got what he wanted ...Add the Boulder factor .... well the rest is as they say history....

[UKGuy]

He was going to move heaven and eath to see to it that never happened. And he is goal and success oriented. He usually got what he wanted ...Add the Boulder factor .... well the rest is as they say history....

coloradokares,

You may be correct, but if Patsy was mentally ill, then John could have blamed it all on this, he had a get-out-of-jail-card, but as you suggest he opted for collusion, and a cover up!


.

[Solace]

So you don't think Bipolar is disturbed. Well hmmmm.... I'd have to write a book on it to explain what its like to have a loved one diagnosed with this disorder and the chaotic train wreck that is left in its wake. Trust me I think your right that any number of us could go to our own personal physicians and get valium. Not the same thing. Bipolar demands its everyone else they are fine add bpd and like I say recipe for disaster. It is a serious mental illness based in brain chemistry and carries the highest suicidal rate next to Schizoaffective or Schizphernia. One bad thing is Bipolar is the new buzz. So lots of doctors are hanging it on patients that really are not. There is some really good research to be had out there. Or even Patty Dukes book. But I honestly in my own opinion think this is possible.
Patty Duke had manic depression, is that the same as bi-polar? I know that wreaks havoc on everyone. But is very treatable. Bi-polar I am not so sure about.

One bad thing is Bipolar is the new buzz. So lots of doctors are hanging it on patients that really are not. Then maybe you agree with me on this one. Colorado, I am quite positive that a good portion of my family is "nuts" and they are not coming back. But you would not know it if you just met them. I would have to give you some time with them. A week should do it or a day or two.

My point is that most people today are walking around with major problems. Disturbed to me, I would liken disturbed to schizophrenia. That is disturbed. The other we can live with. Not very well, but it can be done. :D

[Solace]

coloradokares,

You may be correct, but if Patsy was mentally ill, then John could have blamed it all on this, he had a get-out-of-jail-card, but as you suggest he opted for collusion, and a cover up!


.
Maybe he actually loved her. But then again, he did get her a separate lawyer (Steve Thomas says, just in case). Maybe he is willing to go so far with this, but just in case, he does have a lawyer.

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

You may be correct, but if Patsy was mentally ill, then John could have blamed it all on this, he had a get-out-of-jail-card, but as you suggest he opted for collusion, and a cover up!


.
Perhaps as a trade off I wont tell about your problems with temper if you don't reveal you think I have molested our daughter.....

[coloradokares]

Perhaps as a trade off..I won't discuss if you don't discuss other issues....
As bizarre as it might be. Maybe he loved her ........honestly just loved her and felt like in some way he was responsible to for not being there more for not seeing how stressed out the situation had become...or just simply he loved his wife and his own life and lifestyle enough. Till John tells us we will never know. Would we know then? Patsy is not here to tell her side. Burke is not speaking at all that anyone knows of.

[coloradokares]

Patty Duke had manic depression, is that the same as bi-polar? I know that wreaks havoc on everyone. But is very treatable. Bi-polar I am not so sure about.

One bad thing is Bipolar is the new buzz. So lots of doctors are hanging it on patients that really are not. Then maybe you agree with me on this one. Colorado, I am quite positive that a good portion of my family is "nuts" and they are not coming back. But you would not know it if you just met them. I would have to give you some time with them. A week should do it or a day or two.

My point is that most people today are walking around with major problems. Disturbed to me, I would liken disturbed to schizophrenia. That is disturbed. The other we can live with. Not very well, but it can be done. :D

BiPolar is the new term for Manic Depressive. Yes. And it is treatable only if they stay on medications. But the miss the mania the high the brilliance. Even if when they cycle down.

Broken lives relationships and crazy making for a steady lifestyle. Suicide is rampant with the Manic Depressive/ Bipolars. Add a few other personality disorders or Psychotic Episodes and yes even homicidal rage incidents take place or things like the one who drowned her kids in the bathtub...... BiPolar is one very very complex issue. Mostly its divided in to those who are of harm to themselves. Those who are harmful to others especially if they decide some people do not have the right to live.... and those who exibit both tendencies.....There are few true Bipolars that have not developed other personality disorders along the way.

[Solace]

As bizarre as it might be. Maybe he loved her ........honestly just loved her and felt like in some way he was responsible to for not being there more for not seeing how stressed out the situation had become...or just simply he loved his wife and his own life and lifestyle enough. Till John tells us we will never know. Would we know then? Patsy is not here to tell her side. Burke is not speaking at all that anyone knows of.
Doesn't sound bizarre to me Colorado. Patsy is very very charasmatic. She is very strong. She is not someone to be dropped and tossed away lightly. I can see him saying I can't leave her on her own like this. I know it was an accident, what good will it do to send her to prison.

[Eagle1]

(P)

Christians like Patsy, who turn it into a religion that serves them instead of them serving God, are what's wrong with Christianity today.

Well, you're right about that, NP.

There's all sorts of ways to do it, too. Not just sacrificing someone, and, hey, everyone, I've been here all along and didn't read all that extra, that we'd just like to be true because it would so easily solve a complicated case. We have to stick to what's definitely known. "Calls for speculation of the witness", as they might say in a court case. I'm tired of waiting too, know how you feel.

Somebody made a flat statement above that nobody was home but the Ramseys. Sorry, have to disagree because that's just jumping to conclusions. We don't know that. at all. I'm tired of waiting for the answer too, but we still have to wait till something else is known.

[SuperDave]

Also if Patsy was so mentally ill, and this is possible, I know that mental illness can be hidden in families behind a facade of conservative appearance, why did John seek to go along with the staging and subsequent collusion?

Has anyone ever heard of shared psychosis?

Just spitballing here. A shared psychosis is where one partner in a relationship is mentally ill and the other is so devoted to them, they start to suffer from it too. Let's say that I see little green men (I hope Don Bradley isn't reading this!). My girlfriend loves me so much she sees them too.

[Ames]

Has anyone ever heard of shared psychosis?

Just spitballing here. A shared psychosis is where one partner in a relationship is mentally ill and the other is so devoted to them, they start to suffer from it too. Let's say that I see little green men (I hope Don Bradley isn't reading this!). My girlfriend loves me so much she sees them too.

Awwwww....thats so SWEET! Sharing is the polite thing to do....

Seriously....I have heard of that before...you could be onto something....

[Solace]

Has anyone ever heard of shared psychosis?

Just spitballing here. A shared psychosis is where one partner in a relationship is mentally ill and the other is so devoted to them, they start to suffer from it too. Let's say that I see little green men (I hope Don Bradley isn't reading this!). My girlfriend loves me so much she sees them too.
No, but I am sure my family has it.:cool:

[coloradokares]

Has anyone ever heard of shared psychosis?

Just spitballing here. A shared psychosis is where one partner in a relationship is mentally ill and the other is so devoted to them, they start to suffer from it too. Let's say that I see little green men (I hope Don Bradley isn't reading this!). My girlfriend loves me so much she sees them too.
Yes our son came close to describing that till he got help of his own so he could be a supporter and advocate vs an enabler .

[SuperDave]

Good, I hated to think I wasted that effort!

[Eagle1]

You mean sort of like "Stockholm Syndrome"?

And relatives may resist for years a mud-slinging relative who's trying to get a vulnerable relative disinherited but eventually they may give up and act like they believe him? Like a mental virus spreading?

It happens. And although they were involved in a coverup for someone or someones, I'm not saying it happened to Patsy and John, because we could never prove that. LE may have thought of the possibility but didn't use it.

Patsy was famous for old-fashioned southern good manners, never saying anything bad behind anyone's back, which takes some strong tongue-controll, until asked by LE right after her child was killed if she might suspect one of the friends.

I'd probably say yes too in such circumstances! I know an elderly man grieving the loss of his wife who says the doctors killed her, nothing on which to base that, just a need to strike out defensively, just one of the normal symptoms of grieving.

We've said some people with cancer go crazy, but actually MOST don't. The best of kids can be bratty and crazy-making at times, been there, but PR was even more easy-going than most of us, and things were going well, nice family plans in the works. We don't talk much about the Rave Party that night two doors away, because it almost had to be someone JonBenet knew, or maybe not, but there's just dozens of possibilities other than PR. I would be just as happy as you, if there was real proof, not just grasping at speculative straws, that it was her and the case was solved. Reality...it isn't over till it's over.

The sleuthing could be so much more exciting if broadened a lot. Ever watched that red-head guy on A&E named Horatio Caine or something like that? I wonder how he would approach a similar crime.

[UKGuy]

Has anyone ever heard of shared psychosis?

Just spitballing here. A shared psychosis is where one partner in a relationship is mentally ill and the other is so devoted to them, they start to suffer from it too. Let's say that I see little green men (I hope Don Bradley isn't reading this!). My girlfriend loves me so much she sees them too.

SuperDave,

Could be, they say some famous artists, had girlfriends and wives who shared their alternate take on reality.

Then there is Eva Braun etc.

When one partner is psychotic the other partner has to find creative ways to defend against adopting the others delusional thinking, in some males this can lead to stonewalling and lots of smiling since it seems the safest course of action, does that remind you of someone?


.

[Toltec]

My guess is that Patsy suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder with Narcissistic tendencies. Some borderlines do have brief psychotic episodes....so who knows?

Patsy could be charming but she could also be downright mean. One friend talks of the time she critiqued a pamphlet Patsy had put together...and Patsy not speaking to her for over a year.

[JMO8778]

My guess is that Patsy suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder with Narcissistic tendencies. Some borderlines do have brief psychotic episodes....so who knows?

Patsy could be charming but she could also be downright mean. One friend talks of the time she critiqued a pamphlet Patsy had put together...and Patsy not speaking to her for over a year.good post.as far as removing her wig,which was on another thread..I have to say that got her some attention.and esp. the way she acted after the murder about it..like 'look at me,im so nice,i did that,look what a nice person I am !' o my...that's as bad as that sicko letter she put in DOI...about how someone thought how she was soo wonderful @@.The fact she felt she had to announce it to the world says a lot about her..why not just keep it private,if she's all that great a person;her opinion of herself should be the only one that matters.how narci is that???!!!

[rashomon]

Anyone have any thoughts on my post?Imo what Pasty wrote about her premonition is an attempt on her part to exonerate herself. For if it was all 'meant to happen' anyway, if it was predetermined (by some transcendent power) that JB's life was going to end, something which Patsy's subconscious mind 'sensed', then this makes Patsy a mere instrument in the completion of JB's 'fate'.

[Ames]

Imo what Pasty wrote about her premonition is an attempt on her part to exonerate herself. For if it was all 'meant to happen' anyway, if it was predetermined (by some transcendent power) that JB's life was going to end, something which Patsy's subconscious mind 'sensed', then this makes Patsy a mere instrument in the completion of JB's 'fate'.
I believe that Patsy, up until she died...convinced herself that she had no part in JB's murder. I believe that she told herself that, so many times...that she started believing it.

[Eagle1]

2-5-07 Taking a break from Virus Aggravations

It's so great to get back to you guys for a few minutes. See, I'm not completely crazy yet. Hope I don't drive any of you over the edge.

But who among us hasn't even gotten offended and quit speaking to someone? And still we were considered normal, by everyone but the offender. Maybe the woman apparently bragging about having critiqued Patsy's booklet really was jealous, mean, and crude about it for all we know, thought she could write a better pamphlet. Happens to the very best of us, practically "every day".

Certainly Patsy knew, whether she did anything or not, and I don't claim to know that, she'd be in the hot seat about this. Sure she was trying to exonerate herself in advance. Who wouldn't? These things are probably in fact the best proof that she was NOT abnormal. Sure I'll eat my words if it turns out eventually I'm wrong, not to worry about that. We're people of good will, or we would not be here, not competing with each other.

[coloradokares]

2-5-07 Taking a break from Virus Aggravations

It's so great to get back to you guys for a few minutes. See, I'm not completely crazy yet. Hope I don't drive any of you over the edge.

But who among us hasn't even gotten offended and quit speaking to someone? And still we were considered normal, by everyone but the offender. Maybe the woman apparently bragging about having critiqued Patsy's booklet really was jealous, mean, and crude about it for all we know, thought she could write a better pamphlet. Happens to the very best of us, practically "every day".

Certainly Patsy knew, whether she did anything or not, and I don't claim to know that, she'd be in the hot seat about this. Sure she was trying to exonerate herself in advance. Who wouldn't? These things are probably in fact the best proof that she was NOT abnormal. Sure I'll eat my words if it turns out eventually I'm wrong, not to worry about that. We're people of good will, or we would not be here, not competing with each other.If only that were the sole example . However Patsy had a reputation of charming and sweet as honeysuckle off the vine. Unless and until you had the slightest criticism, or forgot to give her all due credit and then some, or heaven forbid worse than anything tried to suggest a better way to do it. This is not a emptly criticisim .....Her dance instructor she hired for JonBenet finally had to tell Patsy leave the instruction to me. Patsy was asked to remain in an outer room. Finally Patsy went in and informed the instructor that was not acceptable and was there with her suggestions for the duration of instruction. This is in one of the books although it was common knowledge amongst those who knew Patsy that she along with the instructors opinion and it left and impression. Even interviews with the police she went from charming to saying Buster your going down the WRONG ROAD and had lost her charm when they reminded her of things that appeared inconsistent. So .....we are left to question was that indeed part of her personality. Or ananomaly......I guess that is for you to decide for yourself. But either way. It was what it was and when her daughter is found dead in the home it at least has to be weighed and considered by those in a postion to determined by the LE involved in this matter exactly how JonBenet was killed. Then when personal friends indicate that it was exactly like Nedra .....It starts to create an image. It only sheds a bit of light on who Patsy was. Its that psycological autopsy that Rashomon suggests would be interesting to look at or formulate. That does not place the smoking gun in Patsy's hand. What placed the smoking gun there was the fibers of her clothing under the tape. Intertwined in the knot of the garrote and the opinion that she cannot be removed from suspicion of being the author of the ransom note.

[Eagle1]

................ This is not a emptly criticisim .....Her dance instructor she hired for JonBenet finally had to tell Patsy leave the instruction to me. Patsy was asked to remain in an outer room. Finally Patsy went in and informed the instructor that was not acceptable and was there with her suggestions for the duration of instruction. .............

Even interviews with the police she went from charming to saying Buster your going down the WRONG ROAD and had lost her charm when they reminded her of things that appeared inconsistent. So .....we are left to question was that indeed part of her personality. Or ananomaly......I guess that is for you to decide for yourself. .......

But either way. It was what it was and when her daughter is found dead in the home it at least has to be weighed and considered by those in a postion to determined by the LE involved in this matter exactly how JonBenet was killed.......

Its that psycological autopsy that Rashomon suggests would be interesting to look at or formulate.

That does not place the smoking gun in Patsy's hand. What placed the smoking gun there was the fibers of her clothing under the tape. Intertwined in the knot of the garrote and the opinion that she cannot be removed from suspicion of being the author of the ransom note.

I'm taking the liberty of inserting some spaces into the quote of your post, to isolate what I believe are your main points, and to make for much easier reading.

It's all in how our own personalities INTERPRET all this. Whether we're "hawks or doves". To me the fibers and note you cite in your last paragraph to NOT place the smoking gun in PR's hand at all.

Eventually if it turns out my "good will" is misplaced, fine, I'll be as happy as anyone that the case is finally solved, if it really is.

I believe PR was removed from suspicion as much as any of the suspects about writing the note, and fibers very obviously could be planted, especially if some perp knew LE tactics, what they'd look for. We've discussed in other threads and at other forums that ST I believe said he and a partner were so surprised when a snapshot of an open dictionary fell out of the evidence envelope. I think some didn't agree with what I'd heard or read, that no dictionary had been at the crime scene when it was processed. I don't remember the source of that, sorry.

If it's true the dictionary hadn't been at the original crime scene, was added clandestinely, then it COULD mean the killer is in LE, doesn't definitely mean that, as far as we know, just COULD. If not the killer, maybe a cop trying to close the case faster thought that might work. You know Burke wouldn't have left that so his Dad would know he was questionning whether there was incest, and that the adults are too educated and shrewd to have left it there. They've really been spotlighted but have held up all this time.

Sure that's unusual about her supervising the dance instructer. Most of us wouldn't dream of acting like that, too intense, but we all know some exremely bossy people, just a quirk that doesn't prove murder, not by a long shot.

Petty criticizms don't solve murder cases as complicated as this one. There were other suspects, even among the friends, and McSanta was almost arrested twice, heart attack or no heart attack. I don't know if LE investigated about that celtic harp he owned, with notches on it for dead little "friends" of his.

There was no evidence that strong against Patsy. Her choice of friends seems to be appalling, and JR was no doubt criticized after the body was found for allowing something or other, said "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry", allegedly. Nedra also was quoted saying JonBenet wasn't molested MUCH. So a lot of them knew whatever was going on. It wasn't just the household. You can't just ignore all this and concentrate on petty things that prove nothing. That harp is hard evidence. Don't know if it means they were having a celtic human sacrifice ritual, or a variation of same. Those can be googled. Traditionally the victim was fed a last meal, maybe a favorite food and something green, if I remember correctly after so long.

Melody Stanton's husband heard metal hitting on or scraping on concrete, which pretty much pinpoints the time of death, and confirms that the scream wasn't just a dream. If she'd been awakened at another time, say 2 in the afternoon, it would have been a dream, because nobody died at that time, and nobody would have screamed. She maybe felt bad about their not doing anything to help, assuming the parents would also hear everything and take care of it, and rationalized that maybe she was awakened by just a dream. Her husband's testimony I think changes that.

[Solace]

I believe that Patsy, up until she died...convinced herself that she had no part in JB's murder. I believe that she told herself that, so many times...that she started believing it.
Ames, I agree with you. I believe it was an "accident" - some accident. But it was not meant to kill her and Patsy said to herself "I did not mean to kill her, so I am not going down for something I did not do". And she was able to live with that, besides I have to take care of Berke. :cool:

[coloradokares]

I'm taking the liberty of inserting some spaces into the quote of your post, to isolate what I believe are your main points, and to make for much easier reading.

It's all in how our own personalities INTERPRET all this. Whether we're "hawks or doves". To me the fibers and note you cite in your last paragraph to NOT place the smoking gun in PR's hand at all.

Eventually if it turns out my "good will" is misplaced, fine, I'll be as happy as anyone that the case is finally solved, if it really is.

I believe PR was removed from suspicion as much as any of the suspects about writing the note, and fibers very obviously could be planted, especially if some perp knew LE tactics, what they'd look for. We've discussed in other threads and at other forums that ST I believe said he and a partner were so surprised when a snapshot of an open dictionary fell out of the evidence envelope. I think some didn't agree with what I'd heard or read, that no dictionary had been at the crime scene when it was processed. I don't remember the source of that, sorry.

If it's true the dictionary hadn't been at the original crime scene, was added clandestinely, then it COULD mean the killer is in LE, doesn't definitely mean that, as far as we know, just COULD. If not the killer, maybe a cop trying to close the case faster thought that might work. You know Burke wouldn't have left that so his Dad would know he was questionning whether there was incest, and that the adults are too educated and shrewd to have left it there. They've really been spotlighted but have held up all this time.

Sure that's unusual about her supervising the dance instructer. Most of us wouldn't dream of acting like that, too intense, but we all know some exremely bossy people, just a quirk that doesn't prove murder, not by a long shot.

Petty criticizms don't solve murder cases as complicated as this one. There were other suspects, even among the friends, and McSanta was almost arrested twice, heart attack or no heart attack. I don't know if LE investigated about that celtic harp he owned, with notches on it for dead little "friends" of his.

There was no evidence that strong against Patsy. Her choice of friends seems to be appalling, and JR was no doubt criticized after the body was found for allowing something or other, said "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry", allegedly. Nedra also was quoted saying JonBenet wasn't molested MUCH. So a lot of them knew whatever was going on. It wasn't just the household. You can't just ignore all this and concentrate on petty things that prove nothing. That harp is hard evidence. Don't know if it means they were having a celtic human sacrifice ritual, or a variation of same. Those can be googled. Traditionally the victim was fed a last meal, maybe a favorite food and something green, if I remember correctly after so long.

Melody Stanton's husband heard metal hitting on or scraping on concrete, which pretty much pinpoints the time of death, and confirms that the scream wasn't just a dream. If she'd been awakened at another time, say 2 in the afternoon, it would have been a dream, because nobody died at that time, and nobody would have screamed. She maybe felt bad about their not doing anything to help, assuming the parents would also hear everything and take care of it, and rationalized that maybe she was awakened by just a dream. Her husband's testimony I think changes that.
The fibers twisted into the knot of the garrote could not have been planted as they would have had to been tied into it to be as they were. Other than that .....you are certainly entitle to believe whatever it is you choose. I won't be blown away to a dustbunny under the bed of life if they ever find and prove beyond perponderance an intruder .....But I am not holding my breath waiting for the reasons I named. I am ok with agreeing to disagree.

[SuperDave]

You mean sort of like "Stockholm Syndrome"?

That's a stretch, but okay.

When one partner is psychotic the other partner has to find creative ways to defend against adopting the others delusional thinking, in some males this can lead to stonewalling and lots of smiling since it seems the safest course of action, does that remind you of someone?

I'm afraid it does.