"Stun Gun" marks

[Jessiebell]

I'm a chronic lurker but I've been looking for something for a while now that I cannot find and answer to, so I thought I would ask. :rolleyes:

Has it been investigated/discussed - if those marks could have been made by the bolts on the inside of the hard case suitcase and the faint red/pink square around it by the plate that usually surrounds the handle/latch placed to keep the bolts from easily pulling through the suitcase material from regular use?

I'm thinking that the if whoever was trying to "clean-up" indeed tried the suitcase to carry her out - maybe the marks were made from trying to force it closed - squeezing her lower back against the bolts or screws and backing plates. It could maybe have been made by the handle screws - or I was thinking they were too close together for that - but the latch on the other side would also have screws and a plate and would be closer together.

Anyway - sorry if I'm rehashing It's just been irking me and I cannot locate a previous discussion on any of the forums I searched.


Thanks guys!:)

[Jessiebell]

Of course I meant to add that obviously if someone (John for example) did try the suitcase - they were not able to close it and went to "plan" b - leave the body in the house.

[Ames]

I'm a chronic lurker but I've been looking for something for a while now that I cannot find and answer to, so I thought I would ask. :rolleyes:

Has it been investigated/discussed - if those marks could have been made by the bolts on the inside of the hard case suitcase and the faint red/pink square around it by the plate that usually surrounds the handle/latch placed to keep the bolts from easily pulling through the suitcase material from regular use?

I'm thinking that the if whoever was trying to "clean-up" indeed tried the suitcase to carry her out - maybe the marks were made from trying to force it closed - squeezing her lower back against the bolts or screws and backing plates. It could maybe have been made by the handle screws - or I was thinking they were too close together for that - but the latch on the other side would also have screws and a plate and would be closer together.

Anyway - sorry if I'm rehashing It's just been irking me and I cannot locate a previous discussion on any of the forums I searched.


Thanks guys!:)
Could be. I have thought that John had maybe planned on putting JB's body in that suitcase (found in the basement under the window), and carrying her out. I had even thought that maybe plan A could have been for him to fly the plane himself to Michigan, as planned....BUT...to take that suitcase with him (with JB's body)...and dump it in Lake Michigan. I know that is totally farfetched...but, it was just a thought. I have thought that those marks could have possibly been from the Christmas lights on the staircase too. Those things, ten years ago....used to get really hot...(there had even been a recall on them..because they were burning people's houses down). I have seen a photo of the staircase that was taken shortly after JB's body was found, and the lights were ON.

[Jessiebell]

Thanks Ames!

I was just looking at them again and suddenly I thought about how those older hardcase suitcases were usually hardwared -and it was sorta of an OMG moment - It'll make me go out to the area thrift stores and see if I can find and old hard case like that and check! Just to get it out of my head anyway. I mostly just couldn't recall it being discussed.

Thanks again! :)

JessieBell

[Ames]

Thanks Ames!

I was just looking at them again and suddenly I thought about how those older hardcase suitcases were usually hardwared -and it was sorta of an OMG moment - It'll make me go out to the area thrift stores and see if I can find and old hard case like that and check! Just to get it out of my head anyway. I mostly just couldn't recall it being discussed.

Thanks again! :)

JessieBell
You are welcome!! My mother-in-law has a hard suitcase like that...I may have to break down and call and ask her. Although, I would rather poke my eye out with a stick, instead of calling to ask her ANYTHING! ;)

[kaykay]

years ago it was said the marks on JB's neck were from her loom. (the kind to make potholders)
It has those little points that stick up. Some thought she may have laid on it.

The hair ties that were scattered on her bedroom floor were actually the little round loops she used to make the potholders not hair ties.

I have no idea where to find this information...forgot.

kaykay

JMO

[Ames]

years ago it was said the marks on JB's neck were from her loom. (the kind to make potholders)
It has those little points that stick up. Some thought she may have laid on it.

The hair ties that were scattered on her bedroom floor were actually the little round loops she used to make the potholders not hair ties.

I have no idea where to find this information...forgot.

kaykay

JMO




I have also read this, so I will see if I can find the link. I remember seeing pictures of the loom, and the guy that wrote the article pressed a loom, exactly like JB's...into his skin. He took pictures of the results....and to me, it looked just like the abrasions found on JB. So, the loom causing the marks on JB, is a huge possibility. The police took pictures of JB's loom...and they can be found along with the crime scene photos on acandyrose site. They must have had a reason for taking those pictures. I don't think that they would have done that, if they hadn't suspected that the loom played some sort of part in her injuries.

[Jessiebell]

Thank you both. I have read about the loom theories - so I do know what you are talking about there - I just was never sold on that entirely I suppose.


Thanks again!!

Jessiebell :chicken:

[kaykay]

I have also read this, so I will see if I can find the link. I remember seeing pictures of the loom, and the guy that wrote the article pressed a loom, exactly like JB's...into his skin. He took pictures of the results....and to me, it looked just like the abrasions found on JB. So, the loom causing the marks on JB, is a huge possibility. The police took pictures of JB's loom...and they can be found along with the crime scene photos on acandyrose site. They must have had a reason for taking those pictures. I don't think that they would have done that, if they hadn't suspected that the loom played some sort of part in her injuries.
That's my thought. I also wonder if JB put the little loom things in her own hair using them for ties. I know my girls at that age would do all kinds of things with their hair. There were three little pony tails in her hair.
Sounds like something a kid would.

I don't think PR would prepare JB hair like this to color it. The hair color wouldn't take on the roots to well and I would think that would be the reason for the touch-up...to color the new growth.

If she didn't do it...I wonder if another child did?? That would be the way little girls would play.

kaykay,
JMO

[Jayelles]

My daughter is 7 and she cannot tie her own hair in a bobble/elastic/scrunchie. Her hair is very, very long and she can brush it and put clasps in it (Americans call these something like barr....) but she cannot quite master an elastic tie which requires double/treble twisting round.

[coloradokares]

My daughter is 7 and she cannot tie her own hair in a bobble/elastic/scrunchie. Her hair is very, very long and she can brush it and put clasps in it (Americans call these something like barr....) but she cannot quite master an elastic tie which requires double/treble twisting round.
barrette.... that would be the hair clasps. :D

[Ames]

(Americans call these something like barr....)

Cute! I bet that you have a really cool accent!!

[Eagle1]

I suddenly had this thought, maybe whoever did it brought something with him that would create marks similar to a stun gun's marks.

Can't think what that could be, of course, since I'm not into that kind of games. Maybe there is something, or a very unusual brand of stun gun. do foreign countries have them? Different from ours in some ways?

At another forum years ago, someone who knew about Sadomasochism (sorry about that spelling) mentioned a lot of tools of the trade, which most of us have never seen so we can't know if there was something that would make the strange abrasion marks.

[santos1014]

There is a great theory posted in this forum on those marks...

On page 58, post #13 in a thread called...MORE ABOUT PATSY'S RINGS.

[coloradokares]

There is a great theory posted in this forum on those marks...

On page 58, post #13 in a thread called...MORE ABOUT PATSY'S RINGS.
I am inclined to go with the rings. Here is the scenario that plays through my mind with variations. Patsy, wrenchs the collar of JonBenet shirt tight and her rings create the mark on the cheek. by the ear..... or variations on that general line..... Patsy cradles JonBenet after she is dead...her rings make the mark on little JonBenet's back....

[Solace]

There is a great theory posted in this forum on those marks...

On page 58, post #13 in a thread called...MORE ABOUT PATSY'S RINGS.
What forum are we speaking of. I am very interested to read about Patsy's rings, because it seems a very viable theory. :cool:

[santos1014]

What forum are we speaking of. I am very interested to read about Patsy's rings, because it seems a very viable theory. :cool:
This forum.

[Solace]

This forum.
Thank you Santos.

[Nuisanceposter]

Right, WolfmarsGirl's theory. I think she's onto something. Here's some info I found in a search.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3971

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4603

[coloradokares]

Right, WolfmarsGirl's theory. I think she's onto something. Here's some info I found in a search.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3971

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4603
I totally agree....some one said christmas lights from the garland. but not hot enough nor would she have been held against it long enough to do damage. The rings is what I think made the mark. Also the picture showed her rings turned in like it would have had to have done to do the marks. Mine always turn in. I wear a rather bold gold ring and anniversary ring on my left and precious stone ring with diamond accents on the right. All three turn in cause they are just a bit loose I am always straightening my rings out. This makes total sense to me and if you saw the pattern on the rings you'd really freak...I'll see if I can find that.......the impression pattern....

[Ames]

I totally agree....some one said christmas lights from the garland. but not hot enough nor would she have been held against it long enough to do damage. The rings is what I think made the mark. Also the picture showed her rings turned in like it would have had to have done to do the marks. Mine always turn in. I wear a rather bold gold ring and anniversary ring on my left and precious stone ring with diamond accents on the right. All three turn in cause they are just a bit loose I am always straightening my rings out. This makes total sense to me and if you saw the pattern on the rings you'd really freak...I'll see if I can find that.......the impression pattern....
I have four different rings that I wear, and every single one of them turn in....and it drives me crazy. I never remove my rings at night, either...and even if Patsy did, usually...the murder and coverup probably happened before she had a chance to remove anything.

[SuperDave]

Can't think what that could be, of course, since I'm not into that kind of games. Maybe there is something, or a very unusual brand of stun gun. do foreign countries have them? Different from ours in some ways?

I know the Chinese Communists like to use them on political prisoners.

[Ames]

I know the Chinese Communists like to use them on political prisoners.
So the small foreign faction are Chinese Communists? ;)

[SuperDave]

I KNEW someone was going to say it!

[Ames]

I KNEW someone was going to say it!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist! :D Couldn't you just SEE a couple of Chinese Communist finding out about JR, and his millions...and breaking into the Ramsey home, and killing his daugther....because they were jealous of him? :rolleyes: Geesh....

[JMO8778]

I have four different rings that I wear, and every single one of them turn in....and it drives me crazy. I never remove my rings at night, either...and even if Patsy did, usually...the murder and coverup probably happened before she had a chance to remove anything.that makes sense...if the perp's knuckles caused the abrasions(as Dr Spitz thought),there likely would have been some evidence of that on the perp,and remember when ST says PR was fingerprinted,he checked her hands and arms,and found nothing unusual??? It's a shame any jewelry she was wearing wasn't immediately seized..maybe they could have found some evidence on it.

[Jessiebell]

So the small foreign faction are Chinese Communists? ;)
:dance:

[Jayelles]

Cute! I bet that you have a really cool accent!!
Mrs Doubtfire.

[Jayelles]

barrette.... that would be the hair clasps. :D
That's the word I was looking for. Thanks.

[Ames]

Mrs Doubtfire.
I wish that I could change my southern accent, to one like yours.

[coloradokares]

I wish that I could change my southern accent, to one like yours.Strange.... I have no accent at all....:D

[Ames]

Strange.... I have no accent at all....:D
Yah, sure you don't. LOL :)

[SuperDave]

Sorry, I just couldn't resist! Couldn't you just SEE a couple of Chinese Communist finding out about JR, and his millions...and breaking into the Ramsey home, and killing his daugther....because they were jealous of him?

No, Max Zorin put them up to it so HIS computer business would boom!

[Eagle1]

I suppose this has been asked before. Could someone have been jabbing her with an electric cord plug? The prongs are about 1/2 inch apart. Not the exact distance between the marks, right? One prong is shorter and would make less of a mark. Probably no good but it had to be at least mentioned.

[Ames]

No, Max Zorin put them up to it so HIS computer business would boom!

LOL...yeah...THATS what happened. You figured it out Dave...its not a cold case anymore. WOW...you are GOOD!!! :cool:

[BlueCrab]

Thanks Ames!

I was just looking at them again and suddenly I thought about how those older hardcase suitcases were usually hardwared -and it was sorta of an OMG moment - It'll make me go out to the area thrift stores and see if I can find and old hard case like that and check! Just to get it out of my head anyway. I mostly just couldn't recall it being discussed.

Thanks again! :)

JessieBell


JessieBell,

There have been several detailed discussions on this forum about whether or not the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet could have been from the built-in hardware in the blue suitcase. About 5 years ago I remember experimenting by my 6-yr-old granddaughter volunteering to climb into a hard-sided suitcase similar to and about the same size as the Ramsey suitcase. She fit in easily, but there were no hardware items that lined up with the known marks left anywhere on JonBenet.

IMO the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet were just that -- they were stun gun marks. The rectangular twin injuries on Jon Benet's lower back; and on the lower leg; and on the face, closely match the measurements of the twin metal prongs on a Taser brand stun gun. The tiny injuries were originally recognized as abrasions and not stun gun injuries, but after further studies the coroner, Dr. John Meyer, changed his opinion and admitted the injuries were consistent with stun gun injuries. Other forensic pathologists who had first-hand experience with stun gun injuries agreed with Meyer.

BlueCrab

[icedtea4me]

IMO the "stun gun" marks on JonBenet were just that -- they were stun gun marks. The rectangular twin injuries on Jon Benet's lower back; and on the lower leg; and on the face, closely match the measurements of the twin metal prongs on a Taser brand stun gun. The tiny injuries were originally recognized as abrasions and not stun gun injuries, but after further studies the coroner, Dr. John Meyer, changed his opinion and admitted the injuries were consistent with stun gun injuries. Other forensic pathologists who had first-hand experience with stun gun injuries agreed with Meyer.

BlueCrabUsing the common denominator of a 1/16th of an inch, here are the dimensions of the facial, back, and leg wounds-

under the right ear- 6/16 x 4/16
right side of chin- 3/16 x 2/16
back #1- 2/16 x 1/16
back #2- 2/16 x 3/16
leg #1- 1/16 x less than 1/16
leg #2- 2/16 x less than 1/16

[BlueCrab]

Using the common denominator of a 1/16th of an inch, here are the dimensions of the facial, back, and leg wounds-

under the right ear- 6/16 x 4/16
right side of chin- 3/16 x 2/16
back #1- 2/16 x 1/16
back #2- 2/16 x 3/16
leg #1- 1/16 x less than 1/16
leg #2- 2/16 x less than 1/16


icedtea4me,

As you know, there are no two stun gun injuries that look alike. This is due to an infinite number of variables possible when a hand-held stun gun (not an Air Taser that shoots darts) is applied each time to the body of the victim. For instance, there is (and these are my opinions) :

0 the length of time the trigger is held (the longer the gun's trigger is held, the worse is the burn on the skin -- one to three seconds would be normal and five seconds would likely start damaging the skin),

0 the amount of pressure of the metal prongs against the skin (if jammed hard against the skin the relatively sharp metal prongs can cause an abrasion in addition to the burn),

0 the area on the skin being stunned (some areas are softer and flatter and conduct electricity better than others),

0 the amount of clothing, if any, the current must travel before reaching the skin, and

0 the angle of the gun's twin prongs as they press against the skin (in a struggle did both prongs make contact with the skin or did just one of them make contact).

Of the three stun gun injuries on JonBenet, the better defined injury was the one on the flat part of her back. It clearly showed the small twin rectangular burns, about 1 3/8 inches apart, left by the prongs of the stun gun.

The injury on the back of her lower leg, near the ankle, was less defined because of the sharply rounded surface of the child's small ankle.

The injury on JonBenet's face was severe and left a large ugly burn. It suggests that the trigger of the stun gun was held for an exceptionally long time (perhaps as long as 10 seconds) and thus one of the twin prongs severely burned her. The gun was likely held at an angle because the other prong left a barely noticeable mark on her face.

BlueCrab

[kaykay]

I have to wonder why an adult would need to use a stun gun on a small child and use it over and over.

Would this cause JB to cry out in pain? Would it make a noise?

I don't know what caused the marks on JB but I don't think it was a stun gun.

There's no reason an adult would need to do this, but kids may if one was used.

JMO kaykay

[Solace]

I have to wonder why an adult would need to use a stun gun on a small child and use it over and over.

Would this cause JB to cry out in pain? Would it make a noise?

I don't know what caused the marks on JB but I don't think it was a stun gun.

There's no reason an adult would need to do this, but kids may if one was used.

JMO kaykay

I saw a show on stun guns and every single person that was hit with one "screamed' out in pain. I guess everyone except JonBent.

[BlueCrab]

I have to wonder why an adult would need to use a stun gun on a small child and use it over and over.

Would this cause JB to cry out in pain? Would it make a noise?

I don't know what caused the marks on JB but I don't think it was a stun gun.

There's no reason an adult would need to do this, but kids may if one was used.

JMO kaykay



kaykay,

IMO a stun gun was used on JonBenet, and since she wasn't a threat to the perp(s), the only plausible reason left for using a stun gun on a little six-year-old girl is torture.

BlueCrab

[JMO8778]

icedtea4me,

As you know, there are no two stun gun injuries that look alike. This is due to an infinite number of variables possible when a hand-held stun gun (not an Air Taser that shoots darts) is applied each time to the body of the victim. For instance, there is (and these are my opinions) :

0 the length of time the trigger is held (the longer the gun's trigger is held, the worse is the burn on the skin -- one to three seconds would be normal and five seconds would likely start damaging the skin),

0 the amount of pressure of the metal prongs against the skin (if jammed hard against the skin the relatively sharp metal prongs can cause an abrasion in addition to the burn),

0 the area on the skin being stunned (some areas are softer and flatter and conduct electricity better than others),

0 the amount of clothing, if any, the current must travel before reaching the skin, and

0 the angle of the gun's twin prongs as they press against the skin (in a struggle did both prongs make contact with the skin or did just one of them make contact).

Of the three stun gun injuries on JonBenet, the better defined injury was the one on the flat part of her back. It clearly showed the small twin rectangular burns, about 1 3/8 inches apart, left by the prongs of the stun gun.

The injury on the back of her lower leg, near the ankle, was less defined because of the sharply rounded surface of the child's small ankle.

The injury on JonBenet's face was severe and left a large ugly burn. It suggests that the trigger of the stun gun was held for an exceptionally long time (perhaps as long as 10 seconds) and thus one of the twin prongs severely burned her. The gun was likely held at an angle because the other prong left a barely noticeable mark on her face.

BlueCrabbut why would someone use a stun gun on her legs????or even her face??? that doesn't even make any sense ..wouldn't they likely chose the torso?

[kaykay]

I saw a show on stun guns and every single person that was hit with one "screamed' out in pain. I guess everyone except JonBent.
That's my thought too Solace..

kaykay

[BlueCrab]

I saw a show on stun guns and every single person that was hit with one "screamed' out in pain. I guess everyone except JonBent.


Solace,

They didn't have black duct tape on their mouths.

BlueCrab

[Alexi]

I believe JB was stun-gunned twice. Once in her bedroom (when she was asleep), and once in the basement (just before or possibly just after she screamed).

IMO no parent would use a stun-gun on their child.

[JMO8778]

the duct tape was likely used(from the AG doll,IMO) and wouldnt have stuck much...plus there is no evidence on it to imply she was awake and struggling at the time.
what I find most interesting about the stun gun theory isn't the abrasions themselves,it's JR's attitude and his refusal to exhume JB to get some solid answers,once and for all ..I'm not buying that he doesn't want to disturb her...this is the person who was going to leave her under the xmas tree alone,didn't escort her to the morgue,and tried to high-tail it out of town right after finding her body ! yea....right JR !!!
..like my teachers used to say..'keep on talkin' now,ya hear???!'

[Charlie]

I have thought that those marks could have possibly been from the Christmas lights on the staircase too. Those things, ten years ago....used to get really hot...(there had even been a recall on them..because they were burning people's houses down). I have seen a photo of the staircase that was taken shortly after JB's body was found, and the lights were ON.

I have found a picture of the the christmas lights on the spiral staircase. I have circled where the lights look like two prongs that could make those marks on JBR.

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/charlotte.thom/spirallightsPS.jpg

Last christmas our tree lights that we bought in early 90s finally gave up so we went out and bought some new ones. I was quite surprised how less hot they get than our previous lights which could really heat up. In fact at night during the xmas period we would switch off the lights for fear of the tree catching alight from the heat .

[JMO8778]

thx Charlie,that's interesting.I wonder if she got caught in the lights and garland while someone was carrying her to the basement?That would explain why some garland was found in her hair..maybe that's when she got the abrasions as well?

[SuperDave]

Would this cause JB to cry out in pain? Would it make a noise?

Yes to both! I actually own one of these things.

They didn't have black duct tape on their mouths.

Black duct tape that showed no signs of even the meekest resistance, Crab. It doesn't wash.

[wildestkabs]

Solace,

At one point, I used to wonder whether the scream that Melody Stanton heard, was from the use of a stun gun on JonBenet in the basement.

That is, if there was a scream.

Wild

I saw a show on stun guns and every single person that was hit with one "screamed' out in pain. I guess everyone except JonBent.

[JMO8778]

I suspect if a scream was heard,it was PR.

[Charlie]

thx Charlie,that's interesting.I wonder if she got caught in the lights and garland while someone was carrying her to the basement?That would explain why some garland was found in her hair..maybe that's when she got the abrasions as well?

Perhaps once JB was dead the perp while thinking about his/her next move placed her on the stairs sittng up, with her back supported by the railings on the bottom steps. Her back would then be leaning against the dropping lights and her head dropped to the side against the lights also, hence the burns being in thier respective places. Also would explain the garland in her hair. Heres the pic again to visualise how she could have been sitting propped up against the stairs.



http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/charlotte.thom/spirallightsPS.jpg

[JMO8778]

thx again Charlie.I have one more q,if you don't mind...I think JB also had the abrasions on one leg too..would that fit somehow with the way she could have been placed there?that does makes sense about the abrasions on her back and neck.

[Charlie]

thx again Charlie.I have one more q,if you don't mind...I think JB also had the abrasions on one leg too..would that fit somehow with the way she could have been placed there?that does makes sense about the abrasions on her back and neck.

I dont recall in the autopsy there being metion of any abrasion on her leg, are you suggesting perhaps that was something that was left out of the public domain to verify credible suspects?

[JMO8778]

I dont recall in the autopsy there being metion of any abrasion on her leg, are you suggesting perhaps that was something that was left out of the public domain to verify credible suspects?No,I was thinking I'd read she had 3 sets of abrasions in all.maybe I was wrong.

[Ames]

I suspect if a scream was heard,it was PR.
I am with you JMO8778....if JB had screamed loud enough for the NEIGHBORS to hear...why the h*ll didn't her parents hear her?...They were in the SAME house...for crying out loud. I believe the scream was from Patsy, too. After she realized what she had done....and there was NO turning back.

[Ames]

Perhaps once JB was dead the perp while thinking about his/her next move placed her on the stairs sittng up, with her back supported by the railings on the bottom steps. Her back would then be leaning against the dropping lights and her head dropped to the side against the lights also, hence the burns being in thier respective places. Also would explain the garland in her hair. Heres the pic again to visualise how she could have been sitting propped up against the stairs.



http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/charlotte.thom/spirallightsPS.jpg
This makes sense...because I believe that the actual head blow and possibly the strangulation may have happened in either her room or her bathroom.

[Charlie]

This makes sense...because I believe that the actual head blow and possibly the strangulation may have happened in either her room or her bathroom.

I agree Ames, what are your thoughts about the timeline concerning the head blow and strangulation?

[Ames]

I agree Ames, what are your thoughts about the timeline concerning the head blow and strangulation?
Well, like I said...I do believe that they both probably happened either in her room, or the bathroom. My guess would be, the head blow came in the bathroom. I think that after the head blow, Patsy tried to revive an unconscious JB, by shaking her (JB's head had some bruising that would be consistant with someone shaking her...I believe this was done when Patsy was trying to revive her)...when she couldn't, I believe that Patsy screamed (the scream that the neighbors heard), and that is what woke John up (I don't believe that he was in on this, except for the coverup). John probably immediately came running, and he and Patsy tried desperately to revive JB...when they realized that they couldn't...and probably thought she was dead...then the process started for the coverup. I think possibly the head blow and the strangulation came within 15 - 20 minutes of each other...enough time for them to devise a quick plan. I think that its entirely possible for the head blow to have happened in her bathroom, and the strangulation to have happened in her bedroom...and THEN she was carried to the basement (possibly to keep Burke from seeing the body.) I believe it was then, that they composed the "War and Peace"....ransom letter. I do believe that they thought that she was dead after the head blow...because I am quite sure that Patsy heard the skull crack. And since neither Patsy or John, either one...are/were in the medical field...when JB slipped into unconsciousness, she probably had a faint heartbeat....one that they couldn't detect....I am sure that they didn't have a stethoscope. They probably felt for a pulse, and didn't feel one, and thought she was dead. So they devised a cover up plan to keep their butts outta jail. IMO

[BlueCrab]

No,I was thinking I'd read she had 3 sets of abrasions in all.maybe I was wrong.


JMO,

There were 3 sets of "abrasions" on JonBenet. Each set had two tiny burn marks which some are calling abrasions because that's how the coroner described them in the autopsy report. However, he later agreed that the marks were also consistent with stun gun injuries The twin marks are about 1 3/8 inches apart, the same distance apart as the twin prongs on a Taser brand stun gun. One set of marks was on the right side of her face, near the ear. The second set was on the lower left side of her back. The third set was on the lower rear of the left leg, near the ankle.

The largest and ugliest mark was the one on JonBenet's face. The clearest set of marks was on her back. The smallest set was on her leg, which the coroner originally described as tiny scratches.

BlueCrab

[Charlie]

Well, like I said...I do believe that they both probably happened either in her room, or the bathroom. My guess would be, the head blow came in the bathroom. I think that after the head blow, Patsy tried to revive an unconscious JB, by shaking her (JB's head had some bruising that would be consistant with someone shaking her...I believe this was done when Patsy was trying to revive her)...when she couldn't, I believe that Patsy screamed (the scream that the neighbors heard), and that is what woke John up (I don't believe that he was in on this, except for the coverup). John probably immediately came running, and he and Patsy tried desperately to revive JB...when they realized that they couldn't...and probably thought she was dead...then the process started for the coverup. I think possibly the head blow and the strangulation came within 15 - 20 minutes of each other...enough time for them to devise a quick plan. I think that its entirely possible for the head blow to have happened in her bathroom, and the strangulation to have happened in her bedroom...and THEN she was carried to the basement (possibly to keep Burke from seeing the body.) I believe it was then, that they composed the "War and Peace"....ransom letter. I do believe that they thought that she was dead after the head blow...because I am quite sure that Patsy heard the skull crack. And since neither Patsy or John, either one...are/were in the medical field...when JB slipped into unconsciousness, she probably had a faint heartbeat....one that they couldn't detect....I am sure that they didn't have a stethoscope. They probably felt for a pulse, and didn't feel one, and thought she was dead. So they devised a cover up plan to keep their butts outta jail. IMO


Thanks BC for clarifying that. I cant believe i never knew about the third abrasion. Did Dr Myers photograph this abrasion like the other two we have seen. Btw sorry JMO8778, and thanks for bringinng it up.

[JMO8778]

Thanks BC for clarifying that. I cant believe i never knew about the third abrasion. Did Dr Myers photograph this abrasion like the other two we have seen. Btw sorry JMO8778, and thanks for bringinng it up.no apology needed Charlie,I appreciate your insight into this,as I do not think they are stun gun marks.

[SuperDave]

Stun gun marks show up on me, folks, and they don't look like that. I look like I was attacked by a bee swarm.

[coloradokares]

Stun gun marks show up on me, folks, and they don't look like that. I look like I was attacked by a bee swarm.
Our friend stun gunned his uncle. With a Taser. It looked like Bumble Bee or yellow jackets got him.

[SuperDave]

Because the victim is usually flopping from the jolt.

[JMO8778]

What about the places where the abrasions are? ...I'm not an expert,but I would think it odd for her to be stunned on the leg and on the side of her face.And 3x in all???That would be a sure risk of her screaming and waking everyone up.

[Dru]

Ames, I read your timeline theory above, and I have a question.

When do you think the wound to JBR's vagina was inflicted?

I think that it was inflicted after the head blow and before the strangulation, but by JR, not PR.

In your timeline did PR inflict that wound before screaming for JR? Or did he do it before strangling JBR?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have on this.

[Dru]

I think if a scream was heard, it was PR. But I think JR was the one who killed JBR, and PR screamed when he showed her the body.

[Toaster]

I think if a scream was heard, it was PR. But I think JR was the one who killed JBR, and PR screamed when he showed her the body.I think Patsy held JB while John clubbed her with the flashlight.

[icedtea4me]

I think Patsy held JB while John clubbed her with the flashlight.John's first child, Beth, died as a result from all the multiple blunt trauma injuries she received in her car wreck. And you actually think that he'd inflict the same type of injury? Get real.


-Tea

[coloradokares]

I think Patsy held JB while John clubbed her with the flashlight.
Why do you feel it that deliberate and perhaps by your statement premeditated?

[Ames]

Ames, I read your timeline theory above, and I have a question.

My answers are in red...

When do you think the wound to JBR's vagina was inflicted?

I believe that it was inflicted after the strangulation, as another part of the staging. Being her parents, I believe that they wanted to make double sure that she was dead before inflicting the wound to JB's vagina.

I think that it was inflicted after the head blow and before the strangulation, but by JR, not PR.

I think, as I have stated above, that it was done after the strangulation, and I believe that John did it, because Patsy couldn't bring herself to do it. IMO

In your timeline did PR inflict that wound before screaming for JR? Or did he do it before strangling JBR?

Are you talking about the vagina (I HATE that word) injury? I believe that after the head wound, is when Patsy screamed...when she realized that she couldn't revive JB. John came running, and then helped her with the cover up, when she told him what had happened. Then the strangulation, and vagina injury occured..as part of the staging.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have on this.
You are quite welcome...I hope that I was of some help. I DO love to ramble alot. LOL

[Ames]

I think if a scream was heard, it was PR. But I think JR was the one who killed JBR, and PR screamed when he showed her the body.
Hmmm....But, what would his reason for killing her be? I think that a scream was heard, but it was Patsy after realizing what she had done. There were some buising on JB's head consistant with someone shaking her, trying to revive her (maybe?). The scream that the neighbor heard, may have even been Patsy screaming FOR John.....a blood curdling...."JOOOOOHHHHHNNNNN", after not being able to revive JB. I do not think that John killed his daughter....but, that is just my opinion.

[Ames]

I think Patsy held JB while John clubbed her with the flashlight.

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??

[Toaster]

Why do you feel it that deliberate and perhaps by your statement premeditated?John was molesting her and JB was starting to confide in someone and Patsy didn't want to loose her home and access to the top-notch cancer treatment to keep her alive, so they had to shut her up. John was the only one that was strong enough to kill her with a head blow so Patsy was in charge of holding her so he could get a good shot in with just one try.

[Toaster]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??It was one perfect blow to the head. Someone would have to be strong enough to hit her that hard and accurate enough to get it right with one blow, and someone would have to make sure she didn't move so they wouldn't have to hit her again if she flinched causing them to wing her or create visible damage.
I don't think John would hold JB while Patsy hit her because Patsy wasn't as skilled or as strong as John (or any man) at swinging a weapon.

[Solace]

It was one perfect blow to the head. Someone would have to be strong enough to hit her that hard and accurate enough to get it right with one blow, and someone would have to make sure she didn't move so they wouldn't have to hit her again if she flinched causing them to wing her or create visible damage.
I don't think John would hold JB while Patsy hit her because Patsy wasn't as skilled or as strong as John (or any man) at swinging a weapon.
I always thought the neighbor said she heard a "child" scream.

As far as hitting her perfectly, it could have been an accident when Patsy grabbed John Benet and lost control and JB fell against the sink or the bathtub. It could have happened that way.

[Charlie]

Are you talking about the vagina (I HATE that word) injury? I believe that after the head wound, is when Patsy screamed...when she realized that she couldn't revive JB. John came running, and then helped her with the cover up, when she told him what had happened. Then the strangulation, and vagina injury occured..as part of the staging.

Ames, how do you figure the chronic inflammation, which is indicitive of prior sexual abuse before xmas night into your theory?

[Ames]

I always thought the neighbor said she heard a "child" scream.

As far as hitting her perfectly, it could have been an accident when Patsy grabbed John Benet and lost control and JB fell against the sink or the bathtub. It could have happened that way.
The woman was half asleep. She heard the scream, and did nothing about it...just went back to sleep. I believe that the scream she heard was Patsy's...and even if it WAS JB....that just makes me know more than ever ....not that I NEEDED anymore proof.....that the Ramsey's are as guilty as sin. How the h*ll did they not hear their daughter scream....when they were in the SAME house....and the NEIGHBOR heard her?? Very weird....!

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID.

[Ames]

Ames, how do you figure the chronic inflammation, which is indicitive of prior sexual abuse before xmas night into your theory?

I am still out on that one. I believe that she had been sexually abused, by....I think...maybe her grandfather (Patsy's dad). I just don't think that John was sexually abusing JB. But, I think that SOMEONE was.

[julianne]

The woman was half asleep. She heard the scream, and did nothing about it...just went back to sleep. I believe that the scream she heard was Patsy's...and even if it WAS JB....that just makes me know more than ever ....not that I NEEDED anymore proof.....that the Ramsey's are as guilty as sin. How the h*ll did they not hear their daughter scream....when they were in the SAME house....and the NEIGHBOR heard her?? Very weird....!

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID.
Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.

[Solace]

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.
Julianne, I could swear in PM/PT they do the experiment and upstairs they can hear the sc ream, as well as across the street.

[Ames]

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.I actually did see that experiment on tv, but it was so long ago,(right after the murder), that I can't remember what the outcome was. But, IF an intruder did it, and the Ramsey's didn't hear it, that would mean that the scream did come from the basement. My question is, why didn't she scream in her bedroom, when the "intruder" was snatching her up to take her to the basement? And even if she was stunned gunned....at the beginning of the first zap, even if she were asleep, it would have woken her up, and she would have had time to let out a scream, before it knocked her out. Still, a huge question for me is, WHY would an indruder...by pass the door that leads to the outside, and possibly his car....and keep on walking and carrying her, down to the basement? (I know this is a change of subject). Why kill her there, when leaving would have been SO much easier...and so much of a lesser chance that he would have been caught? Makes absolutely NO sense. The PARENTS did it.....IMO

[Ames]

Julianne, I could swear in PM/PT they do the experiment and upstairs they can hear the sc ream, as well as across the street.
We have four levels in our house....if someone on the bottom level screams...and we are on the top level....we can hear it. Its not very loud, though....but we can STILL hear it. You can also hear through the air/heating vents too. I don't , for one second, think that JB screamed and her parents didn't hear her. JB either screamed, and the parents heard her, because they were WITH her when she screamed...or it was Patsy....screaming when she could not revive JB.

[coloradokares]

I am still out on that one. I believe that she had been sexually abused, by....I think...maybe her grandfather (Patsy's dad). I just don't think that John was sexually abusing JB. But, I think that SOMEONE was.
I tned to agree with you Ames. I don't believe it was John Ramsey but I still have my wonders about the manner of which cleaning up JonBenet was carried out. Her private parts. I wonder if some very rough wipeing etc was conducted. Ok I am ready for the hisses boo's etc. I just let my mind wander to the screaming and yelling LHP spoke of.

[Dru]

Ames, thanks for your answers.

There's just one problem. That sexual wound (I hate the 'v' word too, btw), according to the medical evidence, had to be inflicted before JBR was dead. Because it bled, at least enough to leave blood on the size-12 underwear. It's possible that it bled more than that, and made it necessary for the killer to remove whatever underwear JBR had been wearing before, and to wipe her down the way he did.

If the wound had been inflicted after death, as staging, it wouldn't have bled.

So, the killer inflicted the wound. Only the killer could have done so.

Now, to me, there are three possible reasons for this wound.

1. Perverse gratification. No evidence supports this, though; there is no evidence from the crime scene that this really was a sex crime, despite the way it looks. (For example, there is no semen anywhere on or near the body, there is no sign that JBR struggled with her attacker, etc.)

2. Staging. Ruled out because of the above, the fact that the wound had to be inflicted before death.

3. Attempt to confuse evidence of prior molestation. In my mind, this is the most likely reason this injury was inflicted; the killer knew JBR was being abused and, further, knew that this evidence would in some way be dangerous to him/her; so he/she decides to inflict this injury so LE will not be able to state with certainty that JBR has been abused prior to the night of the murder. But this means, as I've said before, that either the killer is the molester, or the killer knows with absolute certainty that the abuse is occurring and decides to corrupt the evidence of the abuse.

What bothers me about that second possibility is the 'why'. If PR, for instance, is the killer, and the killing has nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation, why would she hide the evidence of that? Who is she covering for? What will this do for her?

I find it much easier to believe that this whole crime involved the molestation, that the molester became alarmed at the events leading up to Dec. 25 (in particular the 911 call on the 23rd and JBR's 'I don't feel pretty' moment) and that something occurred on the night of the murder that made the molester believe that he/she was in immanent danger of being exposed. (It could be as simple as JBR disobeying the molester, and saying something like 'I don't have to do what you say,' which the molester interpreted as a veiled threat.)

I tend to believe that if anyone of the three people at home was the molester/killer, it was JR--but that's probably a whole post of its own.

[Solace]

I tned to agree with you Ames. I don't believe it was John Ramsey but I still have my wonders about the manner of which cleaning up JonBenet was carried out. Her private parts. I wonder if some very rough wipeing etc was conducted. Ok I am ready for the hisses boo's etc. I just let my mind wander to the screaming and yelling LHP spoke of.
Colorado: No hisses here Colorado. I already got the hisses or Veronica and I did when we posed a rough daily or almost daily douching session with Patsy and Jon Benet because of her infections. UK didn't like it at all and says it is mere speculation.

Well, we are all speculating here because we have to. I use to think John was molesting her. I don't anymore. I think it was a form of corporal cleaning (punishment as Steve Thomas calls it).

I just think it happened fairly often, hence the crying from JonBenet in the bathroom that Linda Paugh heard almost every day.

[Toaster]

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID. Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.

[Charlie]

Ames, thanks for your answers.

There's just one problem. That sexual wound (I hate the 'v' word too, btw), according to the medical evidence, had to be inflicted before JBR was dead. Because it bled, at least enough to leave blood on the size-12 underwear. It's possible that it bled more than that, and made it necessary for the killer to remove whatever underwear JBR had been wearing before, and to wipe her down the way he did.

If the wound had been inflicted after death, as staging, it wouldn't have bled.

So, the killer inflicted the wound. Only the killer could have done so.

Now, to me, there are three possible reasons for this wound.

1. Perverse gratification. No evidence supports this, though; there is no evidence from the crime scene that this really was a sex crime, despite the way it looks. (For example, there is no semen anywhere on or near the body, there is no sign that JBR struggled with her attacker, etc.)

2. Staging. Ruled out because of the above, the fact that the wound had to be inflicted before death.

3. Attempt to confuse evidence of prior molestation. In my mind, this is the most likely reason this injury was inflicted; the killer knew JBR was being abused and, further, knew that this evidence would in some way be dangerous to him/her; so he/she decides to inflict this injury so LE will not be able to state with certainty that JBR has been abused prior to the night of the murder. But this means, as I've said before, that either the killer is the molester, or the killer knows with absolute certainty that the abuse is occurring and decides to corrupt the evidence of the abuse.

What bothers me about that second possibility is the 'why'. If PR, for instance, is the killer, and the killing has nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation, why would she hide the evidence of that? Who is she covering for? What will this do for her?

I find it much easier to believe that this whole crime involved the molestation, that the molester became alarmed at the events leading up to Dec. 25 (in particular the 911 call on the 23rd and JBR's 'I don't feel pretty' moment) and that something occurred on the night of the murder that made the molester believe that he/she was in immanent danger of being exposed. (It could be as simple as JBR disobeying the molester, and saying something like 'I don't have to do what you say,' which the molester interpreted as a veiled threat.)

I tend to believe that if anyone of the three people at home was the molester/killer, it was JR--but that's probably a whole post of its own.

I have a hard time seeing this crime as being premeditated. Mainly because of the hasty nature of the crime. The ransom note was one big panic ramble and the crime scene in the basement was used from available materials the perp could grab as he went along, ie the paintbrush. If the crime was premeditated why the use of two violent acts to kill, when one well thought out act could do the job, ie the strangulation or the headblow...but both? As sick as it is to imagine this but just say u had to get into the killers mind and act as though u were to commit this murder 2 in two days (after the xmas party threat) and were to think abbout how to silence jbr would you do it this way?

I also think that JBR's "i'm not pretty" is a sign a possible molester rejected her that night and she felt that this was because she was no longer desirable etc. Therefore as twisted as this, she could have enjoyed her time with the perp. The perp rejecting her coupled with JBR having no ill feeling toward her molester which would be seen of her being happy and relived an encounter wouldnt occur that night makes me feel the perp has full control and didnt feel any threat.

I honestly believe JBR was murdered by accident that horrible night.

[Solace]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.
Toaster. It is very possible to cause that sort of damage to a child if you throw her with enough force. My son was telling me how careful he has to be with the women he acts with or it is possible to really hurt them. He said he could send them flying with very little effort. So, if we are talking about a child who is no more than 40 pounds and she looks absolutely small in the autopsy photos and Patsy who is enraged pulls her by her neck and the child slips and hits her head hard against the bathtup, it could happen. I bet this bathroom was a fairly good sized one also, not the size they have in some New York apartments. What I mean there would be room for the child to go "flying" across the room. The head wound came first, the rest is staging. She was alive though when she was being strangled, which is shown by the petechial hemmorhaging around her neck. It is plentiful.

[Solace]

I have a hard time seeing this crime as being premeditated. Mainly because of the hasty nature of the crime. The ransom note was one big panic ramble and the crime scene in the basement was used from available materials the perp could grab as he went along, ie the paintbrush. If the crime was premeditated why the use of two violent acts to kill, when one well thought out act could do the job, ie the strangulation or the headblow...but both? As sick as it is to imagine this but just say u had to get into the killers mind and act as though u were to commit this murder 2 in two days (after the xmas party threat) and were to think abbout how to silence jbr would you do it this way?

I also think that JBR's "i'm not pretty" is a sign a possible molester rejected her that night and she felt that this was because she was no longer desirable etc. Therefore as twisted as this, she could have enjoyed her time with the perp. The perp rejecting her coupled with JBR having no ill feeling toward her molester which would be seen of her being happy and relived an encounter wouldnt occur that night makes me feel the perp has full control and didnt feel any threat.
Charlie, Why does the sexual assault on JonBenet necessarily have to be to cover prior sexual molestation. Why could it not be done so that the "finders" of JB would say, well no parent would do this.

[Charlie]

Charlie, Why does the sexual assault on JonBenet necessarily have to be to cover prior sexual molestation. Why could it not be done so that the "finders" of JB would say, well no parent would do this.


We know the chronic inflammation is there regardless. The sexual molestation that night could have been for 2 reasons, as u suggest.

1. the cover prior sexual abuse
2. To create a crime scene that indicates a sexual predator

Whatever the motive the chronic inflammation is still there, which imo is more important than the staged abuse that night as it points to a smaller group of people with access to JBR therefore the circle smallens and more importantly an intruder is excluded.

[Ames]

Ames, thanks for your answers.

There's just one problem. That sexual wound (I hate the 'v' word too, btw), according to the medical evidence, had to be inflicted before JBR was dead. Because it bled, at least enough to leave blood on the size-12 underwear. It's possible that it bled more than that, and made it necessary for the killer to remove whatever underwear JBR had been wearing before, and to wipe her down the way he did.

If the wound had been inflicted after death, as staging, it wouldn't have bled.

So, the killer inflicted the wound. Only the killer could have done so.

Now, to me, there are three possible reasons for this wound.

1. Perverse gratification. No evidence supports this, though; there is no evidence from the crime scene that this really was a sex crime, despite the way it looks. (For example, there is no semen anywhere on or near the body, there is no sign that JBR struggled with her attacker, etc.)

2. Staging. Ruled out because of the above, the fact that the wound had to be inflicted before death.

3. Attempt to confuse evidence of prior molestation. In my mind, this is the most likely reason this injury was inflicted; the killer knew JBR was being abused and, further, knew that this evidence would in some way be dangerous to him/her; so he/she decides to inflict this injury so LE will not be able to state with certainty that JBR has been abused prior to the night of the murder. But this means, as I've said before, that either the killer is the molester, or the killer knows with absolute certainty that the abuse is occurring and decides to corrupt the evidence of the abuse.

What bothers me about that second possibility is the 'why'. If PR, for instance, is the killer, and the killing has nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation, why would she hide the evidence of that? Who is she covering for? What will this do for her?

I find it much easier to believe that this whole crime involved the molestation, that the molester became alarmed at the events leading up to Dec. 25 (in particular the 911 call on the 23rd and JBR's 'I don't feel pretty' moment) and that something occurred on the night of the murder that made the molester believe that he/she was in immanent danger of being exposed. (It could be as simple as JBR disobeying the molester, and saying something like 'I don't have to do what you say,' which the molester interpreted as a veiled threat.)

I tend to believe that if anyone of the three people at home was the molester/killer, it was JR--but that's probably a whole post of its own.
You could be right about the V being inflicted before she was dead. But, I believe that IF it happened that way, that the Ramsey's THOUGHT that JB was already dead from the head wound. I just don't think that they would have done any of the staging, if they had of thought that she was still alive. So, IMO...the V injury could have happened BEFORE her death....but only because the Ramsey's THOUGHT she was dead (from the head wound).

[Ames]

Colorado: No hisses here Colorado. I already got the hisses or Veronica and I did when we posed a rough daily or almost daily douching session with Patsy and Jon Benet because of her infections. UK didn't like it at all and says it is mere speculation.

Well, we are all speculating here because we have to. I use to think John was molesting her. I don't anymore. I think it was a form of corporal cleaning (punishment as Steve Thomas calls it).

I just think it happened fairly often, hence the crying from JonBenet in the bathroom that Linda Paugh heard almost every day.
I agree...I used to think that John was molesting her too. But, now I don't think he was. She could have still been molested by someone else...a grandfather...perhaps...but, I am with you. I believe that Patsy was using douches on her.

[Ames]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB.
She could have even been hit more than ONCE...for staging purposes. After the first blow...and thats why her skull was cracked like an egg. I have to disagree with you....the evidence...and all of the Ramsey's inconsistancies in their stories...point in only one direction. Patsy (I believe) flew into a rage and accidently harmed her daughter. Patsy thought JB was dead, after the head wound, because JB was unconscious and had a faint heartbeat...and then the coverup began.

[Dru]

Hi, Charlie.

I don't actually think the crime was 'premeditated' in the true sense of the word, either. I think that whoever was molesting JBR was growing increasingly uneasy about her, esp. that she would knowingly or unknowingly expose her abuser.

What I think is that something happened on Christmas night that made the abuser 'snap' out of fear that JBR intended to expose him/her. In rage mixed with fear he/she inflicted the head blow, and the rest of the crime was only 'planned' in the sense that it didn't happen in that same moment of rage.

[JMO8778]

In thinking about the douche theory...those would likely have been found in the garbage if there were any...BECAUSE it is theorized that JB was prev. abused on the 23rd..SO the next day being xmas eve...I doubt garbage service came and got anything at all that day,nor the next day either--xmas day.
That makes me wonder when the last time garbage was picked up there..I don't think I've ever read anything on it.

[JMO8778]

Hi, Charlie.

I don't actually think the crime was 'premeditated' in the true sense of the word, either. I think that whoever was molesting JBR was growing increasingly uneasy about her, esp. that she would knowingly or unknowingly expose her abuser.

What I think is that something happened on Christmas night that made the abuser 'snap' out of fear that JBR intended to expose him/her. In rage mixed with fear he/she inflicted the head blow, and the rest of the crime was only 'planned' in the sense that it didn't happen in that same moment of rage.I have to wonder if the trip to MI was making someone uneasy...Melinda and Stewart both having medical knowledge,and with them all to be staying in the same house for a few days,and JB not being afraid to ask ANYONE to wipe her..perhaps there was some fear there.

[JMO8778]

I think the scream was definitely PR,due to the fact the neighbor that heard it was hushed up somehow..and there would be no need to hush her if it had been JB...that would fit in just right with the IDI theory.

[JMO8778]

Nahhhh...are you SERIOUS??
She would have had to be dropped on her head from a one story building for that head wound to happen.
Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.
There is no way the Ramseys accidentally killed JB. I agree,with that huge head wound,someone at some point wanted her dead..and made sure she was.IMO,either PR or JR.

[JMO8778]

I just let my mind wander to the screaming and yelling LHP spoke of.Has it ever been said what tone she was screaming in??? The reason I ask is that there's a big difference betwee JB screaming and crying from PR being angry at her over toileting issues,and JB screaming from actual pain,which would likely be a loud,piercing scream.

[coloradokares]

I agree...I used to think that John was molesting her too. But, now I don't think he was. She could have still been molested by someone else...a grandfather...perhaps...but, I am with you. I believe that Patsy was using douches on her.
Also, since I live here and cannot always divulge where some of my information comes from or provide a link.......I will tell you someone I sat down with in a position to know believes firmly corporal cleaning was a huge issue. Ames if you'd like to know I could pm you with more detail.

[coloradokares]

I agree,with that huge head wound,someone at some point wanted her dead..and made sure she was.IMO,either PR or JR.
But at what moment was her death sought. Before or after the initial head wound? And was it for that very reason....

[coloradokares]

Has it ever been said what tone she was screaming in??? The reason I ask is that there's a big difference betwee JB screaming and crying from PR being angry at her over toileting issues,and JB screaming from actual pain,which would likely be a loud,piercing scream.
My understanding was JonBenet was quite verbally vocal arumentative at times. So it could have been pain. And I believe escalation of anger could have played a role. JMHO.... it was both pain and argumentative war of wills. Just my opinion

[JMO8778]

But at what moment was her death sought. Before or after the initial head wound? And was it for that very reason....I think it was before,and the head wound was to finish her off.I just can't look at that photo of her skull and reconcile it with an accident..no way.Such a split skull looks pretty intentional,IMO.
And I think the perp(s) thought she was dead,b/c of the v trauma that was inflicted(staged) on her...I think they wouldn't have done it till they thought she was dead.
I don't have just one theory though...it could have been PR getting too rough with her,knocking her out...and then not wanting her to wake up,once she figured JB was going to need medical intervention...b/c WHAT could JB tell the dr's when she woke up??? ..."Mom did this to me!" I think PR didn't want to risk that,even though it wasn't murder.She could have been afraid of being charged with child abuse,risking her reputation(and yea..we all know about PR and appearances,they meant everything to her..a former Ms WV and Ms America contestant charged with child abuse??It would make the national news!!),and risking both her kids being removed from the home.

[JMO8778]

My other theory is if it was JR,I think Dru has a pretty good scenerio in that case.

[Ames]

In thinking about the douche theory...those would likely have been found in the garbage if there were any...BECAUSE it is theorized that JB was prev. abused on the 23rd..SO the next day being xmas eve...I doubt garbage service came and got anything at all that day,nor the next day either--xmas day.
That makes me wonder when the last time garbage was picked up there..I don't think I've ever read anything on it.
I have wondered about that too...about the garbage. I am sure that it was taken into evidence.

[Ames]

Also, since I live here and cannot always divulge where some of my information comes from or provide a link.......I will tell you someone I sat down with in a position to know believes firmly corporal cleaning was a huge issue. Ames if you'd like to know I could pm you with more detail.

Yep...CK...please pm me with more details...this should be interesting!

[Dru]

JMO8778, that's a great thought about the trip to MI possibly making someone uneasy! If JBR was showing in lots of subtle ways that she wasn't going to put up with the abuse much longer, her abuser, whoever it was, might have been really worried about contact with other family members who might notice something, esp. with medical training.

I wonder if JBR's rejection of the "My Twinn" doll played a part in this too--maybe just another indication that a child who'd been somewhat complacent in the past was beginning to reject the 'attention' she was getting, and might become really dangerous to the abuser. A doll that looked like 'pageant JBR' pushed aside in favor of more 'grown-up' toys like the jewelry craft kit--maybe another sign that the little girl was starting to grow up in ways her abuser couldn't handle.

People who favor PR as the killer point to the many different stresses and tensions that might have led up to the 'toilet rage' moment, but IMHO there are just as many signs that whoever was responsible for the chronic abuse, if it really did exist, could have been experiencing similar stresses about a situation that really was explosive.

[Solace]

"The bigger they are the harder they fall"
You need mass combined with energy to create that damage. JB only weighed 40lbs.

Now if they dropped the bathtub on her head, I might believe that. Cheers!
Toaster: You can do that to a child if you slam her hard enough. Break her like an egg, which they did.

[Solace]

Also, since I live here and cannot always divulge where some of my information comes from or provide a link.......I will tell you someone I sat down with in a position to know believes firmly corporal cleaning was a huge issue. Ames if you'd like to know I could pm you with more detail.
Colorado: Okay, this is fascinating. The more I think about this, the more I believe corporal cleaning is at fault here. I think as Veronic said Patsy had huge issues with this. She had ovarian cancer, she was trying to keep JonBenet clean and I can absolutely see her doing this and roughly too.

[BlueCrab]

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.


julianne,

There's a marked difference between an adult female's scream and a six-year-old female's scream. Melody Stanton easily identified the scream as that of a child and she estimates that it was about midnight to 2:00 AM when she heard it. The Stanton's slept with the bedroom window slightly ajar so, IMO, Melody Stanton did indeed hear JonBenet's scream.

In accordance with several experimental sound tests, the sounds to the outside were amplified by the air duct in the Ramseys basement, but were not heard in the bedroom on the top floor where John and Patsy slept.

However, there is one little fact seldom mentioned when the scream is discussed -- the Ramseys ALSO slept with their bedroom window slightly ajar. Therefore, IMO the Ramseys, like Melody Stanton, did indeed hear JonBenet's scream and, as a result, searched for and found JonBenet's dead body in the basement at around 1 to 2 AM.

John and Patsy, until Patsy's fake 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM, spent the rest of the morning covering up a crime COMMITTED BY CHILDREN.

BlueCrab

[Solace]

julianne,

There's a marked difference between an adult female's scream and a six-year-old female's scream. Melody Stanton easily identified the scream as that of a child and she estimates that it was about midnight to 2:00 AM when she heard it. The Stanton's slept with the bedroom window slightly ajar so, IMO, Melody Stanton did indeed hear JonBenet's scream.

In accordance with several experimental sound tests, the sounds to the outside were amplified by the air duct in the Ramseys basement, but were not heard in the bedroom on the top floor where John and Patsy slept.

However, there is one little fact seldom mentioned when the scream is discussed -- the Ramseys ALSO slept with their bedroom window slightly ajar. Therefore, IMO the Ramseys, like Melody Stanton, did indeed hear JonBenet's scream and, as a result, searched for and found JonBenet's dead body in the basement at around 1 to 2 AM.

John and Patsy, until Patsy's fake 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM, spent the rest of the morning covering up a crime COMMITTED BY CHILDREN.

BlueCrab
What children Blue Crab?

[BlueCrab]

What children Blue Crab?


Solace,

Unfortunately, if I mention names my post will be deleted. Please use the process of elimination and the names will be obvious.

BlueCrab

[Ames]

Colorado: Okay, this is fascinating. The more I think about this, the more I believe corporal cleaning is at fault here. I think as Veronic said Patsy had huge issues with this. She had ovarian cancer, she was trying to keep JonBenet clean and I can absolutely see her doing this and roughly too.
So, could I....and now especially after reading CK's pm to me. I definately believe that it was happening.

[JMO8778]

So, could I....and now especially after reading CK's pm to me. I definately believe that it was happening.Well,ST thought that was the case,so maybe there was evidence not released that proves so??? Even if it's just statements from reliable witnesses??

[JMO8778]

JMO8778, that's a great thought about the trip to MI possibly making someone uneasy! If JBR was showing in lots of subtle ways that she wasn't going to put up with the abuse much longer, her abuser, whoever it was, might have been really worried about contact with other family members who might notice something, esp. with medical training. yes,with Stewart in med school,studying to be a Dr.,and PR's xmas letter stating Melinda had just grad. and was working in pediatrics..perhaps she'd likely have some experience with sexual abuse cases in children??? Maybe both of them did???

I wonder if JBR's rejection of the "My Twinn" doll played a part in this too--maybe just another indication that a child who'd been somewhat complacent in the past was beginning to reject the 'attention' she was getting, and might become really dangerous to the abuser. A doll that looked like 'pageant JBR' pushed aside in favor of more 'grown-up' toys like the jewelry craft kit--maybe another sign that the little girl was starting to grow up in ways her abuser couldn't handle.
yes,and if it's true about JB rejecting the idea of dressing to match her mom that evening,that could have came into play as well??? A feeling of being out-of-control as a parent??? ..being no longer able to manipulate JB as much.


People who favor PR as the killer point to the many different stresses and tensions that might have led up to the 'toilet rage' moment, but IMHO there are just as many signs that whoever was responsible for the chronic abuse, if it really did exist, could have been experiencing similar stresses about a situation that really was explosive.that's true,I don't rule out JR at all.

[Solace]

Solace,

Unfortunately, if I mention names my post will be deleted. Please use the process of elimination and the names will be obvious.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab, I can only think of one person and that person lived in the house. I do not think it was him at all. I don't know who else you would be referring to. But children did not do this crime.

[Veronica10]

Colorado: Okay, this is fascinating. The more I think about this, the more I believe corporal cleaning is at fault here. I think as Veronic said Patsy had huge issues with this. She had ovarian cancer, she was trying to keep JonBenet clean and I can absolutely see her doing this and roughly too.Ah yes, this makes a lot of sense. JB had issues with wetting and soiling. As the mother of three small girls I know cleaning up a diaper or after an accident for a small girl is an intricate procedure. If soiling happens, then the (excuse the medical termiology here) labia needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and very gently just inside the vagina in case any feces may have gotten inside. Ever so gently.
If JB's cleaning up happened when Patsy was angry (the screaming sessions in the bathroom), then an injury to JonBenet is very possible. The injury to the hymen could very likely happen with rough wiping etc.

And just one more note regarding the douching theory...I only ever theorized this because I so strongly believe JB WAS NOT sexually abused. That is the only reason I would explore other possibilities for the damage to the hymen.

[Solace]

Ah yes, this makes a lot of sense. JB had issues with wetting and soiling. As the mother of three small girls I know cleaning up a diaper or after an accident for a small girl is an intricate procedure. If soiling happens, then the (excuse the medical termiology here) labia needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and very gently just inside the vagina in case any feces may have gotten inside. Ever so gently.
If JB's cleaning up happened when Patsy was angry (the screaming sessions in the bathroom), then an injury to JonBenet is very possible. The injury to the hymen could very likely happen with rough wiping etc.

And just one more note regarding the douching theory...I only ever theorized this because I so strongly believe JB WAS NOT sexually abused. That is the only reason I would explore other possibilities for the damage to the hymen.

I agree Veronica. I don't think he was abusing her and I cannot see him doing this sex game with her with Patsy in the house and Berke in the house wtih JB dying because of it and Patsy going along with this.

[Veronica10]

[/b]

I agree Veronica. I don't think he was abusing her and I cannot see him doing this sex game with her with Patsy in the house and Berke in the house wtih JB dying because of it and Patsy going along with this.


I'm agreeing with this theory more and more. Someone mentioned Steve Thomas believing this...I guess I never fully played it out in my mind. I will now though. And I'm sure ST has inside info.

Also, regarding JR. He had no liking for small girls...I don't think a person just wakes up one day and has a liking for a child. I never saw anything in his past that raised eyebrows. The only issue he did have was an infidelity issue in his first marriage. A woman in her 20s or 30s. He did not sexually abuse JonBenet and I don't think anyone else had access to her.

Note: One other ST mention...I know some people were baffled at his theory that Patsy did it alone...I think he said that publicly in order to get Patsy to snap and finger John. Shame it didn't work if that was his tactic.

[Solace]

I'm agreeing with this theory more and more. Someone mentioned Steve Thomas believing this...I guess I never fully played it out in my mind. I will now though. And I'm sure ST has inside info.

Also, regarding JR. He had no liking for small girls...I don't think a person just wakes up one day and has a liking for a child. I never saw anything in his past that raised eyebrows. The only issue he did have was an infidelity issue in his first marriage. A woman in her 20s or 30s. He did not sexually abuse JonBenet and I don't think anyone else had access to her.

Note: One other ST mention...I know some people were baffled at his theory that Patsy did it alone...I think he said that publicly in order to get Patsy to snap and finger John. Shame it didn't work if that was his tactic.
You are right on Veronica. I do not know why so many are having so many problems with this theory. I do not see John abusing her either. Steve Thomas was a seasoned detective. He had been doing this for some 10 years and had seen some horrific cases. I could not even continue reading about the one he was working on prior to JB, it was that bad. They all involved children. I really think the staging was done not to hide the sexual abuse but to say "a parent would never do this".

What I want to know is how she continued on without drugs and I don't mean xanax. I would need to be out of it, close to dead 24 hours a day if I defiled my child that way, even it was to save my skin. Like the man on tv said the other night, it is the only way to get through and you almost start to believe you didn't do it by denying it. But they really went to some great lengths. It is bizarre.

[coloradokares]

Ah yes, this makes a lot of sense. JB had issues with wetting and soiling. As the mother of three small girls I know cleaning up a diaper or after an accident for a small girl is an intricate procedure. If soiling happens, then the (excuse the medical termiology here) labia needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and very gently just inside the vagina in case any feces may have gotten inside. Ever so gently.
If JB's cleaning up happened when Patsy was angry (the screaming sessions in the bathroom), then an injury to JonBenet is very possible. The injury to the hymen could very likely happen with rough wiping etc.

And just one more note regarding the douching theory...I only ever theorized this because I so strongly believe JB WAS NOT sexually abused. That is the only reason I would explore other possibilities for the damage to the hymen.
What if the cleaning was due to problems the yeast infections etc. But also one does not cancel out the other. What if the cleaning was due to certain behaviors that started with sexual abuse? Just making noise to see if anyone has thought that just because Patsy may have had some anger trigger from bathroom cleaning sessions does not mean that cancels out that there well could have been and it seems even likely there was sexual abuse issues from somewhere. IE the underware hidden in the drawers Holly Smith the sexual abuse office noted and spoke of in interview. What if and this is just my big what if.......the cleaning sessions were really from Patsy cleaning JonBenet due to suspicion of molestation or sexual abuse from some source. Much like a woman who has been raped sees herself as unclean... and will shower repeatedly at great lengths to wash away the feeling. Who can say how psychology may work and get twisted. We know there was a book regarding incest in the home and Nedra Paugh said JonBenet was only a little molested. :confused: I have read also that there was suspicion of molestation in Patsy's childhood.

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab, I can only think of one person and that person lived in the house. I do not think it was him at all. I don't know who else you would be referring to. But children did not do this crime.


Solace,

A Ramsey family member was involved in the death of JonBenet, but neither Patsy Ramsey nor John Ramsey did it.

Never, in all of the annals of crime, has a parent ever stungunned his or her own child. Moreover, neither parent has as much as even one item of evidence against them, and both have exculpatory evidence in favor of them (DNA evidence, handwriting evidence, and polygraph evidence). Yet both parents have been involved in a coverup from day one, and there's only one person on the face of this earth they would coverup for after the murder of their own daughter.

IMO ALL of the coverup evidence points to that person. Additional coverup evidence points to one or more accomplices, one of whom could be an adult. The Colorado Children's Code and the court's gag order properly protects the identity of the children who were involved, but this may also be letting an adult accomplice get away with murder (I can't mention his name either because that would automatically lead to revealing the names of the children).

BlueCrab

[Dru]

Veronica, why do you believe strongly that JBR was not being sexually abused? I'm just wondering.

IMO, if JR was abusing JBR, this wasn't a 'typical' pedo type abuse situation. I think specific stresses in his life, such as PR's cancer and subsequent unavailability to her husband, combined with the traumatic loss of Beth and JR's deep and obvious grief over this, led to any hypothetical abuse. In addition, the abuse wasn't, apparently, actual intercourse; I can think of another man not that long ago who denied having 'sex' with a young intern because what they were doing wasn't actually 'sex' in his mind. I could see JR being in a mindset like that.

Then you factor in the pageants, the fact that PR was teaching JBR how to move like she did, how to act like she did, how to pose, and hold the pose, like she did--and I wonder.

Recently JR was interviewed, and I don't know if anybody has the source, but he was talking about JBR and he said something I've never heard him say before.

He said she was just like Patsy.

[Solace]

Solace,

A Ramsey family member was involved in the death of JonBenet, but neither Patsy Ramsey nor John Ramsey did it. I disagree.

Never, in all of the annals of crime, has a parent ever stungunned his or her own child. Moreover, neither parent has as much as even one item of evidence against them, and both have exculpatory evidence in favor of them (DNA evidence (if you are talking about the degraded DNA found in the underwear, that won't cut it; it has been explored every which way AND UP, and it is degraded, most likely a male, older than JB's DNA, which tells us it was there before that day). So unless you have other DNA, that will not do. handwriting evidence (This is patently untrue - you can look at the handwriting analysis submitted by I believe it was Wolf's lawyer and the similarities are as follows, at least 24 out of 26 of the letters match and some can even be superimposed, and polygraph evidence (You are referring to Dr. Gelb and his sidekick. Dr. Gelb performed three tests before Patsy got it right. Dr. Gelb's history is less than less than. You have to do a search and find out just where he got his credentials - So no, to this also). Yet both parents have been involved in a coverup from day one, and there's only one person on the face of this earth they would coverup for after the murder of their own daughter.

IMO ALL of the coverup evidence points to that person. Additional coverup evidence points to one or more accomplices, one of whom could be an adult. The Colorado Children's Code and the court's gag order properly protects the identity of the children who were involved, but this may also be letting an adult accomplice get away with murder (I can't mention his name either because that would automatically lead to revealing the names of the children).

BlueCrabBlue Crab, I refer you to my answers written above, but in short, there IS NO DNA evidence excluding the Ramseys, none whatsoever. I think most people here who are reading your posts realize this and are tired of the whole DNA thing, but I am responding anyway. The polygraphs they took are a joke and please do some reasearch on the sleaze who administered them before you take it as gospel. She also failed two tests. As far as the handwriting tests, the evidence is OVERWHELMING in favor of her writing the note.

But you know what, when I read they had Dr. Gelb administer the tests, I was not surprised, because like attracts like and the Ramseys had sunk rather low so it was natural they would find the likes of Dr. Gelb. He got his "factory" diploma from a nonreputable source, reputable only in the worst way.
Those are facts.

[Veronica10]

Veronica, why do you believe strongly that JBR was not being sexually abused? I'm just wondering.

IMO, if JR was abusing JBR, this wasn't a 'typical' pedo type abuse situation. I think specific stresses in his life, such as PR's cancer and subsequent unavailability to her husband, combined with the traumatic loss of Beth and JR's deep and obvious grief over this, led to any hypothetical abuse. In addition, the abuse wasn't, apparently, actual intercourse; I can think of another man not that long ago who denied having 'sex' with a young intern because what they were doing wasn't actually 'sex' in his mind. I could see JR being in a mindset like that.

Then you factor in the pageants, the fact that PR was teaching JBR how to move like she did, how to act like she did, how to pose, and hold the pose, like she did--and I wonder.

Recently JR was interviewed, and I don't know if anybody has the source, but he was talking about JBR and he said something I've never heard him say before.

He said she was just like Patsy.
Dru,

It is not one factor but many, including:


my belief that Patsy ran a very tight ship and she was the leader in that house. if JR ever touched JB, she would cut his balls off
if anything as a father he was disconnected (second time father, absent quite a bit)
he had ample opportunity outside the home (business trips) to satisfy his needs
JB was vocal, fun, outgoing...not typical of a child being molested. I think she would be an unlikely victim due to her outspoken nature. whoever touched her would likely be found out
he had way too much to lose...and I think he truly loved patsy, in his own weird way-she was his Jackie O.
seemed to be a good father, very in touch with his first set of kids. second time around he was distant and deeply, deeply involved in Access business.
They were highly and unusually involved (maybe even over-involved) in Boulder society, church society to have secrets like that. Their lives seemed like an open book. They wanted to be in the spotlight and I don't think this is typical of abuse situations.
JB seemed to have a sweet love for her dad and there was never anything to suggest otherwise
I am rambling but I'm sure I will think of others. I think the suggestion of sex is introduced through Patsy and her pageants. And yes I think JB was sexualized to be coy and sexy but I don't think actual sex was involved.

[BlueCrab]

julianne,

However, there is one little fact seldom mentioned when the scream is discussed -- the Ramseys ALSO slept with their bedroom window slightly ajar. Therefore, IMO the Ramseys, like Melody Stanton, did indeed hear JonBenet's scream



julianne,

I'd better source this as a potentially important fact when debating the scream (from the 1998 interviews):

JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean we hear noises from -- when we hear noises, it was typically from outdoors from students."

LOU SMIT: "You can hear that from your room?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "We always slept with the windows open."

BlueCrab

[Dru]

Veronica, thanks for explaining all of that; you've got some good points.

I'm not totally sure about the "Patsy running a tight ship" thing, myself. From various interviews and observers PR seemed to have been disorganized and slapdash, and I also think her lengthy battle with cancer took a toll. Also, wasn't she several years younger than JR?

Again, on the distant/absent father thing, I think it's hard to say. As for 'opportunities' elsewhere, remember that infidelity had ruined his first marriage, and with PR's cancer he may not have had many 'opportunities.'

As for JBR's fun, vocal, outgoing nature, not all abused children become withdrawn or meek. Some identify with the abuser and rationalize the abuse; some seem perfectly fine on the outside, but display unusual behavior of a different kind, problems at school perhaps, a sudden fear of things they used to enjoy, or even a regression into certain infant behaviors, such as the resurfacing of old bedwetting/soiling issues. Given what we know of JBR I don't think we can say with confidence that she wasn't being abused just because her personality didn't appear to reflect it--I've seen some video clips where she's performing at a pageant, and she almost seems able to "turn on" and "turn off" the pageant persona. A child like that might be less likely to display outward signs of abuse.

I agree with you that JR had way too much to lose--which is why, if he was abusing JBR in any way, and feared that she was about to tell, the attack and murder might have been a logical consequence of that fear.

The rest of your points could be interpreted different ways, I think. For instance, why did JR seem to be more attentive to his first family than his second? Did he resent the children of his second marriage in some way? Why was he so wrapped up in business--PR's ambitions, or his own? I tend to see JR as being just as ambitious as PR in some ways; PR's ambition seemed focused on having JBR 'relive' PR's past glories, while JR seemed focused on his own successes, so much so that in one of his interviews he almost seems angrier with LE for not treating him with the respect he thinks he deserves than he is that they haven't found the 'killer'! JR's the one who ran for political office, too, after his daughter's murder.

To sum up (sorry I'm so wordy, lol!) I've become more and more interested in the possibility of JR being the killer as I've gone along, in part because of the way he seems to stay underneath the radar.

I recognize that most on this board think PR did it. But if she did, then which of these two statements is true:
a)PR committed the crime and covered it up alone, or
b)PR committed the crime but then had JR help her cover it up.

Most would say "b" for several reasons: there was too much for one person to do, JR's behavior on the morning of the 26th is too suspicious for someone who didn't already know what had happened, etc. But if "b" is correct, then the one question I've not seen a good answer for from the PR did it side is this one:

Why did JR help PR cover up her involvement in the death of JBR?

Lots of posters here say that PR had 'dirt' on JR that made him cooperate, but what 'dirt' could she possibly have had that would make him risk becoming an accessory after the fact in a murder case? I don't think JR would have cooperated just because he didn't want to lose what was left of his family; he'd lost one family before for a far lesser cause, so why wouldn't he walk away from PR if she had killed their daughter? Wouldn't his focus at that point be on Burke? And if PR knew that JR was abusing JBR and that was her 'weapon' to make him help, then it seems to me that we're back at square one, because if JR was abusing JBR than his motive for murder is much greater than anything she could have.

Any thoughts?

[Eagle1]

The woman was half asleep. She heard the scream, and did nothing about it...just went back to sleep. I believe that the scream she heard was Patsy's...and even if it WAS JB....that just makes me know more than ever ....not that I NEEDED anymore proof.....that the Ramsey's are as guilty as sin. How the h*ll did they not hear their daughter scream....when they were in the SAME house....and the NEIGHBOR heard her?? Very weird....!

Yep, I agree...as far as hitting perfectly....it could have been done when JB hit her head, when she fell against the tub or the sink. Yes, it could have happened that way...and I believe that it DID.

There's no proof yet, whatsoever, that any of the family did it. We could make up plenty of ways it could have happened, but can't prove it.

I'm tired of waiting for a solution too, but something else has to be revealed before anyone can solve it.

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab, I refer you to my answers written above, but in short, there IS NO DNA evidence excluding the Ramseys, none whatsoever. I think most people here who are reading your posts realize this and are tired of the whole DNA thing, but I am responding anyway. The polygraphs they took are a joke and please do some reasearch on the sleaze who administered them before you take it as gospel. She also failed two tests. As far as the handwriting tests, the evidence is OVERWHELMING in favor of her writing the note.

But you know what, when I read they had Dr. Gelb administer the tests, I was not surprised, because like attracts like and the Ramseys had sunk rather low so it was natural they would find the likes of Dr. Gelb. He got his "factory" diploma from a nonreputable source, reputable only in the worst way.
Those are facts. S


Solace,

I respectfully disagree with almost everything you put in your post. For instance:

There are 10 identifiable markers in the foreign male DNA found in the mixed sample from JonBenet's underwear. This was enough markers (13 markers are preferred) to enter the sample into the FBI's CODIS program. This male DNA may or may not be from the killer of JonBenet, but it would be irresponsible to disregard it. The Ramsey parents were eliminated as the donor because John's DNA didn't match the sample; and Patsy is a female.

In regard to the handwriting analyses, John was unanimously eliminated as the writer by the six handwriting experts brought together by Alex Hunter to give their individual opinions. The six were:

Chet Ubowski, Colorado Bureau of Investigation;

Leonard Speckin, private examiner;

Edwin Alford, Jr, private examiner;

Lloyd Cunningham, private examiner;

Richard Dusak, U.S. Secret Service examiner; and

Howard Rile, private examiner.

Their consensus was that, with Patsy's score of 4.5, with 5.0 meaning total elimination as the writer, she came very close to being eliminated. The experts concluded that it was very unlikely that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Seventy two suspects took the exam, and many of them scored lower than Patsy and could not be eliminated as the writer, including Burke Ramsey.

In regard to the polygraph given by Ed Gelb, neither John
nor Patsy showed deception in their answers. Gelb is a nationally recognized and highly respected authority on polygraphs. Disliking him doesn't change his competency.

BlueCrab

[JMO8778]

I'm agreeing with this theory more and more. Someone mentioned Steve Thomas believing this...I guess I never fully played it out in my mind. I will now though. And I'm sure ST has inside info.

Also, regarding JR. He had no liking for small girls...I don't think a person just wakes up one day and has a liking for a child. I never saw anything in his past that raised eyebrows. The only issue he did have was an infidelity issue in his first marriage. A woman in her 20s or 30s. He did not sexually abuse JonBenet and I don't think anyone else had access to her.

Note: One other ST mention...I know some people were baffled at his theory that Patsy did it alone...I think he said that publicly in order to get Patsy to snap and finger John. Shame it didn't work if that was his tactic.I think so,too.He sure was giving JR a pass for some reason.

[JMO8778]

Why did JR help PR cover up her involvement in the death of JBR?



Any thoughts?The only thing that really makes any sense to me is that PR killed her in a rage,and she threatened to expose JR's abuse of JB if he didn't go along with it,so he felt he had no choice.

[JMO8778]

And if PR knew that JR was abusing JBR and that was her 'weapon' to make him help, then it seems to me that we're back at square one, because if JR was abusing JBR than his motive for murder is much greater than anything she could have.

Any thoughts?I agree that he would have more of a motive to kill her but..that doesn't mean he would or did,if PR flew into a rage and did it herself.He may have felt relief that he would never be exposed(at least not for sure) for sexual abuse,but I'm not sure he would kill her himself,but then again,I could be wrong.

(maybe I should start a new thread) but I was thinking ...I've always wondered where JR's daughter and her husb. stand on it (Melinda and Stewart,the Dr).I don't think Stewart feels that PR was innocent,since he bothered to call ST and let him know what JR said about him finding her at 11am,not 1pm.Then again,I could be wrong(he could suspect JR now).It must have taken a lot for him to devulge that piece of info,knowing it could likely be a part of some severe ramifications for JR,and placing some risk in his relationship with Melinda.I've always wondered if he talked to her about about it b/f making the call.

[SuperDave]

John was molesting her and JB was starting to confide in someone and Patsy didn't want to loose her home and access to the top-notch cancer treatment to keep her alive, so they had to shut her up.

I can follow you so far, Toaster. Sadly, many of the spouses of abusive parents tend to blame the victim. "It would be all right if JonBenet was gone."
That's what you're trying to say?

And even if she was stunned gunned....at the beginning of the first zap, even if she were asleep, it would have woken her up, and she would have had time to let out a scream, before it knocked her out.

That's just it, Ames. They DON'T knock people out.

Only publicity hound doctors have said that the head wound could have come first, but the majority consensus in the medical world is the head blow came after.

I think you have it backwards, there.

(I can't mention his name either because that would automatically lead to revealing the names of the children).

No matter, Crab. I get ya, loud and clear.

IMO, if JR was abusing JBR, this wasn't a 'typical' pedo type abuse situation. I think specific stresses in his life, such as PR's cancer and subsequent unavailability to her husband, combined with the traumatic loss of Beth and JR's deep and obvious grief over this, led to any hypothetical abuse.

It's called "situational." Not because they're attracted to children so much as the child is there.

JB was vocal, fun, outgoing...not typical of a child being molested. I think she would be an unlikely victim due to her outspoken nature. whoever touched her would likely be found out

I knew that would come up! Last week, Wendy Murphy was on O'Reilly, and in most of the child sex crimes she prosecuted, the children appeared totally normal.

In regard to the polygraph given by Ed Gelb, neither John nor Patsy showed deception in their answers. Gelb is a nationally recognized and highly respected authority on polygraphs. Disliking him doesn't change his competency.

No, but his integrity is highly questionable. Anyone can beat those things. I could tell everyone reading this thing right now the easiest way to do just that.

[philamena]

Why did JR help PR cover up her involvement in the death of JBR?

Lots of posters here say that PR had 'dirt' on JR that made him cooperate, but what 'dirt' could she possibly have had that would make him risk becoming an accessory after the fact in a murder case? I don't think JR would have cooperated just because he didn't want to lose what was left of his family; he'd lost one family before for a far lesser cause, so why wouldn't he walk away from PR if she had killed their daughter? Wouldn't his focus at that point be on Burke? And if PR knew that JR was abusing JBR and that was her 'weapon' to make him help, then it seems to me that we're back at square one, because if JR was abusing JBR than his motive for murder is much greater than anything she could have.

Any thoughts?IMO, John Ramsey didn't help cover up his daughter's murder because his wife had dirt on him. He simply covered up the crime so that the Ramsey name wouldn't be tarnished. Oh and he had to protect his precious Patsy.
We must remember, JBR had been sexually molested prior to that night. That in and of itself kept the Ram's from taking JBR to the emergency room or calling LE Dec. 26. Again IMO only.

[Solace]

S


Solace,

I respectfully disagree with almost everything you put in your post. For instance:

There are 10 identifiable markers in the foreign male DNA found in the mixed sample from JonBenet's underwear. This was enough markers (13 markers are preferred) to enter the sample into the FBI's CODIS program. This male DNA may or may not be from the killer of JonBenet, but it would be irresponsible to disregard it. The Ramsey parents were eliminated as the donor because John's DNA didn't match the sample; and Patsy is a female.

In regard to the handwriting analyses, John was unanimously eliminated as the writer by the six handwriting experts brought together by Alex Hunter to give their individual opinions. The six were:

Chet Ubowski, Colorado Bureau of Investigation;

Leonard Speckin, private examiner;

Edwin Alford, Jr, private examiner;

Lloyd Cunningham, private examiner;

Richard Dusak, U.S. Secret Service examiner; and

Howard Rile, private examiner.

Their consensus was that, with Patsy's score of 4.5, with 5.0 meaning total elimination as the writer, she came very close to being eliminated. The experts concluded that it was very unlikely that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Seventy two suspects took the exam, and many of them scored lower than Patsy and could not be eliminated as the writer, including Burke Ramsey.

In regard to the polygraph given by Ed Gelb, neither John
nor Patsy showed deception in their answers. Gelb is a nationally recognized and highly respected authority on polygraphs. Disliking him doesn't change his competency.

BlueCrabLet me respond:

"…It is the current understanding of the family that the investigation team considers this male DNA sample to be the key piece of evidence and was, without a doubt, left behind by the killer of their child."

The very same scientist who conducted the DNA testing in the Denver Police Department’s DNA lab contradicts the above statement.

Rocky Mountain News, May 18, 2004, Charlie Brennan
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...2893675,00.html
text version backup

A claim by John Ramsey's campaign that investigators have the DNA of his daughter's killer goes too far, according to the forensic scientist who developed the genetic profile from that sample.

"That's one of the possibilities, but that's not the only possibility," said the scientist, who asked that his name not be used. It's impossible to say whether the DNA belonged to an adult or a child, according to the scientist.

"You have DNA that's male, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the killer's," the scientist said. "It could be innocent. It could be from the (undergarment's) manufacturer. It could be a lot of things. Of course it's important. But it's not more important than the rest of the investigation."

"It is only a sample," he said. "You need a match, and that will help you get a name. And then that gives you somebody to talk to. But that person might be alibied-out, or there might be some other explanation for why it's there."


Without knowing if a sample was left by blood, saliva, or some other material, it could be "unknown cellular material sloughed off by somebody's hand," the source said. "You're in an area that is very gray, and it can be very confusing, as to the interpretive value of it."




Polygraphs: The Ramsey attorneys first contacted a polygraph examiner named Gene Parker and inquired if he would be interested in performing the polygraph test on John and Patsy. Parker said he would be interested in performing the tests, but mentioned that because of the seriousness of the crime, he would require both Ramseys take a drug test. Parker said the urine drug tests could be performed right on his premises by a doctor or nurse just before the tests began. The Ramsey attorney told Parker they would get back to him at a later date, and they did call him back about three hours later. In that second call, Parker was informed they were not interested in his conducting the tests because they had found another polygraph examiner they planned on using who did not require drug testing.

Gelb's involvement in the Ramsey case has brought out some very interesting information about the man. . Supposedly Gelb's resume states that he received his doctorate degree from LaSalle University in Louisiana. That would be a real problem, because LaSalle was found to be nothing but a mail-order diploma mill. LaSalle's office was investigated and raided by the FBI, and Thomas Kirk (http://webadv.chron.com/ads/ads_i/insidestory/editorial/olympicsfood.html), LaSalle's owner and founder, was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to five years in federal prison. Kirk earned millions of dollars from people looking to obtain fraudulent college degrees at a discount rate with little or no actual course work required.

Calls to Gelb's office (http://www.polygraphexpert.com/) by people trying to verify his education were not returned, and one internet sleuth even went as far as to check the master registry of Ph.D. dissertations and could find no information on a doctorate thesis authored by Edward Gelb.

Should "Doctor" Gelb really be addressed as "Dr. Bogus"? Is the man who claims to be the master at detecting the deception of others really a master of public and profession deception himself?

There are six experts who believe Patsy Ramsey wrote the note, two of whom are experts Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were "100 percent certain" Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

Also Correspondent Raj Chohan of CBS affiliate KCNC reports that handwriting expert Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has appeared for a second day before the Boulder County grand jury hearing evidence in the homicide case. Ubowski had concluded earlier in the investigation that the note was not written by the slain girl's father John Ramsey, but could have been written by JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey.

BLUECRAB. If you are going to post information, please post ALL of it. It is true that Chet Ubowski ELIMINATED John, but he said that 24 of the 26 letters matched Patsy's handwriting.

And lets not forget Foster, who is renowned. I know that he came out for them in the beginning and had a tete-a-tete with Jameson, but he changed his mind and says Patsy wrote the note . His analysis can be found on the web, along with Darnay Hoffman's expert (this analyis is fascinating) with examples.

And it is interesting to note that out of the people that were tested by the CBI, Patsy is the only one that COULD NOT BE ELIMINATED.

There are I believe3 other handwriting experts who believe Patsy wrote the note.

[BlueCrab]

Let me respond:

Also Correspondent Raj Chohan of CBS affiliate KCNC reports that handwriting expert Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has appeared for a second day before the Boulder County grand jury hearing evidence in the homicide case. Ubowski had concluded earlier in the investigation that the note was not written by the slain girl's father John Ramsey, but could have been written by JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey.

BLUECRAB. If you are going to post information, please post ALL of it. It is true that Chet Ubowski ELIMINATED John, but he said that 24 of the 26 letters matched Patsy's handwriting.

And lets not forget Foster, who is renowned. I know that he came out for them in the beginning and had a tete-a-tete with Jameson, but he changed his mind and says Patsy wrote the note . His analysis can be found on the web, along with Darnay Hoffman's expert (this analyis is fascinating) with examples.

And it is interesting to note that out of the people that were tested by the CBI, Patsy is the only one that COULD NOT BE ELIMINATED.

There are I believe3 other handwriting experts who believe Patsy wrote the note.




Solace,

I agree with most of the irrelevant info you add about the the DNA and the polygraph, but it still doesn't negate the fact that the DNA is not that of John nor Patsy and it could be that of the killer, and that John and Patsy Ramsey passed the polygraph exam without showing deception.

But in regard to Patsy's handwriting analyses, it appears you have swallowed the hook, line, and sinker of the lies of Steve Thomas. For instance, there was never any study that concluded that 24 out of 26 letters in the ransom note matched Patsy's handwriting. Such a conclusion doesn't even make sense. And Chet Ubowski didn't make such a claim; it was made up by and started as a rumor by Steve Thomas. When challenged for a source of such a convoluted study, Steve Thomas couldn't provide one.

Although the official numbers from the handwriting analyses haven't been publicly released, it is believed that not only Patsy, but MOST of the 72 suspects who took the test could not be eliminated as the possible writer of the ransom note. Steve Thomas lied again when he insinuated that Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated. The truth of the matter is that not even Burke Ramsey could be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note.

Incidentally, I don't think Steve Thomas left the BPD voluntarily. IMO he was given the choice of resigning or being fired for misrepresenting the true findings of the CBI in regard the results of the handwriting analyses.

In regard to Darnay Hoffman's "expert" handwriting analysts, they were
torn apart by Lin Wood during the preliminary hearing, forcing Hoffman to withdraw them and bring the Wolf v Ramsey case to a close.

BlueCrab

[Solace]

Solace,

I agree with most of the irrelevant info you add about the the DNA and the polygraph, but it still doesn't negate the fact that the DNA is not that of John nor Patsy and it could be that of the killer, and that John and Patsy Ramsey passed the polygraph exam without showing deception. BlueCrab, nothing I posted is "irrelevant'. We all know that most likely this dna is worthless as far as clearing the Ramseys. But you smokescreen the truth with your post when you say DNA cleared the Ramseys as suspects.

There is no match for an intruder and there is not going to be one unless they start looking for matches in Taiwan where the factory is that made the undergarment. John and Patsy FINALLY passed without deception. The test was done by the ever suspect Dr. Gelb. Maybe it does not bother you how he came to get his diploma? I know it did not bother the Ramseys because pretty much like attracts like and they found each other.

They refused to take a test from another polygrapher because he wanted Patsy to take a drug test. Lin Wood tried very hard to cover this fact up by saying he never called the polygrapher back and told him no. But one of his assistants did, so he was lying, he was just "lying". You might want to leave Lin Wood and his expertise out of this because I believe "he made most of his money on the Ramsey case". John also lied several times about being asked to take one. Patsy finally passed. She also failed so please lets be honest about what you post.

But in regard to Patsy's handwriting analyses, it appears you have swallowed the hook, line, and sinker of the lies of Steve Thomas. For instance, there was never any study that concluded that 24 out of 26 letters in the ransom note matched Patsy's handwriting. Such a conclusion doesn't even make sense. (Makes sense to me. At one point or another in the ransom note 24 letters out of 26 match). And Chet Ubowski didn't make such a claim; it was made up by and started as a rumor by Steve Thomas. When challenged for a source of such a convoluted study, Steve Thomas couldn't provide one. I will be happy to recant if you can prove that to me. Chet Ubowski said at the Grand Jury that he could not eliminate Patsy. You posted that he eliminated John, but you neglected to post he could not eliminate Patsy. That is borderingn on "misleading". Don't you think?

I looked at the analysis Darnay Hoffman's expert provided and if it does not amaze most, I will be surprised. It is in in a word "incredible".

Although the official numbers from the handwriting analyses haven't been publicly released, it is believed that not only Patsy, but MOST of the 72 suspects who took the test could not be eliminated as the possible writer of the ransom note. I believe you have that backwards, but please prove it to me.

Steve Thomas lied again when he insinuated that Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated. The truth of the matter is that not even Burke Ramsey could be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note. I thought you said CBI eliminated John. What is it? Well someone is lying here then. Tell me how you know Steve Thomas is lying. Please prove it to me and I will recant. I have no problem with that.

Mr. Thomas does not strike me as someone who lies. Patsy Ramsey does though, John Ramsey does and oh yes, Lin Wood has a great way of twisting things such as saying the fact that Lacy went to Patsy's funeral proves she was innocent. Using Lin Wood to back up your argument is scraping the bottom of the Ramsey barraell.

Incidentally, I don't think Steve Thomas left the BPD voluntarily. IMO he was given the choice of resigning or being fired for misrepresenting the true findings of the CBI in regard the results of the handwriting analyses. We are dealing in facts here BlueCrab, not what you think. It is a man's career we are talking about. So lets deal in facts. Can you prove that?

By the way, he stands by his book and never paid a dime to the Ramseys. He would not pay them anything and that was put in the settlement. There would be no settlement if money came out of his pocket.

In regard to Darnay Hoffman's "expert" handwriting analysts, they were
torn apart by Lin Wood during the preliminary hearing, forcing Hoffman to withdraw them and bring the Wolf v Ramsey case to a close. The analysis speaks for itself and it is damning.

BlueCrabMy responses above. By the way Blue Crab, you conveniently overlook Dr. Gelb's infamous history. Does it bother you that the place he got his diploma was raided by the FBI.

Sorry Blue Crab, you have to do better than this.

[SuperDave]

Steve Thomas lied again when he insinuated that Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated. The truth of the matter is that not even Burke Ramsey could be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note.

Actually, he said she was the only one proven to be in the house. I guess what I'm saying is when you eliminate the impossible, what remains must be the truth.

In regard to Darnay Hoffman's "expert" handwriting analysts, they were
torn apart by Lin Wood during the preliminary hearing, forcing Hoffman to withdraw them and bring the Wolf v Ramsey case to a close.

Hoffman claims that the Rs never released any handwriting analysis that contradicts the analysis of his experts. And he is correct. No one has.

Anyone have that side-by-side comparison chart? The PDF file I mean. That would do it.

[Solace]

Actually, he said she was the only one proven to be in the house. I guess what I'm saying is when you eliminate the impossible, what remains must be the truth.



Hoffman claims that the Rs never released any handwriting analysis that contradicts the analysis of his experts. And he is correct. No one has.

Anyone have that side-by-side comparison chart? The PDF file I mean. That would do it.Nice to have you step in on this. I will get right on it.:woohoo:

I am trying to find it, but if anyone else gets it before I do, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POST THE LINK. THANKS MUCH.

[JMO8778]

Let me respond:

"…It is the current understanding of the family that the investigation team considers this male DNA sample to be the key piece of evidence and was, without a doubt, left behind by the killer of their child."

The very same scientist who conducted the DNA testing in the Denver Police Department’s DNA lab contradicts the above statement.

Rocky Mountain News, May 18, 2004, Charlie Brennan
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...2893675,00.html
text version backup

A claim by John Ramsey's campaign that investigators have the DNA of his daughter's killer goes too far, according to the forensic scientist who developed the genetic profile from that sample.

"That's one of the possibilities, but that's not the only possibility," said the scientist, who asked that his name not be used. It's impossible to say whether the DNA belonged to an adult or a child, according to the scientist.

"You have DNA that's male, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the killer's," the scientist said. "It could be innocent. It could be from the (undergarment's) manufacturer. It could be a lot of things. Of course it's important. But it's not more important than the rest of the investigation."

"It is only a sample," he said. "You need a match, and that will help you get a name. And then that gives you somebody to talk to. But that person might be alibied-out, or there might be some other explanation for why it's there."


Without knowing if a sample was left by blood, saliva, or some other material, it could be "unknown cellular material sloughed off by somebody's hand," the source said. "You're in an area that is very gray, and it can be very confusing, as to the interpretive value of it."




Polygraphs: The Ramsey attorneys first contacted a polygraph examiner named Gene Parker and inquired if he would be interested in performing the polygraph test on John and Patsy. Parker said he would be interested in performing the tests, but mentioned that because of the seriousness of the crime, he would require both Ramseys take a drug test. Parker said the urine drug tests could be performed right on his premises by a doctor or nurse just before the tests began. The Ramsey attorney told Parker they would get back to him at a later date, and they did call him back about three hours later. In that second call, Parker was informed they were not interested in his conducting the tests because they had found another polygraph examiner they planned on using who did not require drug testing.

Gelb's involvement in the Ramsey case has brought out some very interesting information about the man. . Supposedly Gelb's resume states that he received his doctorate degree from LaSalle University in Louisiana. That would be a real problem, because LaSalle was found to be nothing but a mail-order diploma mill. LaSalle's office was investigated and raided by the FBI, and Thomas Kirk (http://webadv.chron.com/ads/ads_i/insidestory/editorial/olympicsfood.html), LaSalle's owner and founder, was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to five years in federal prison. Kirk earned millions of dollars from people looking to obtain fraudulent college degrees at a discount rate with little or no actual course work required.

Calls to Gelb's office (http://www.polygraphexpert.com/) by people trying to verify his education were not returned, and one internet sleuth even went as far as to check the master registry of Ph.D. dissertations and could find no information on a doctorate thesis authored by Edward Gelb.

Should "Doctor" Gelb really be addressed as "Dr. Bogus"? Is the man who claims to be the master at detecting the deception of others really a master of public and profession deception himself?

There are six experts who believe Patsy Ramsey wrote the note, two of whom are experts Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were "100 percent certain" Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

Also Correspondent Raj Chohan of CBS affiliate KCNC reports that handwriting expert Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has appeared for a second day before the Boulder County grand jury hearing evidence in the homicide case. Ubowski had concluded earlier in the investigation that the note was not written by the slain girl's father John Ramsey, but could have been written by JonBenet's mother, Patsy Ramsey.

BLUECRAB. If you are going to post information, please post ALL of it. It is true that Chet Ubowski ELIMINATED John, but he said that 24 of the 26 letters matched Patsy's handwriting.

And lets not forget Foster, who is renowned. I know that he came out for them in the beginning and had a tete-a-tete with Jameson, but he changed his mind and says Patsy wrote the note . His analysis can be found on the web, along with Darnay Hoffman's expert (this analyis is fascinating) with examples.

And it is interesting to note that out of the people that were tested by the CBI, Patsy is the only one that COULD NOT BE ELIMINATED.

There are I believe3 other handwriting experts who believe Patsy wrote the note.



Personally I don't see how anyone in their RIGHT MIND cannot see that PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE DARN "RANSOM NOTE".
Maybe I should start a new acronym....NHBR. "NOT HOODWINKED BY THE RAMSEYS".
..meaning,those who are still looking for that elusive 'intruder' and supporting the Ramsey's lies,are going to be doing just that for the rest of their lives,while the rest of us who are smart enough not to be fooled by them sit here and know an 'intruder' is never going to be found...because he doesn't exist!!!!!!
And you're completely wasting your time trying to prove he does !!! (where is he,it's been 10 yrs !!!)

[Solace]

Personally I don't see how anyone in their RIGHT MIND cannot see that PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE DARN "RANSOM NOTE".
Maybe I should start a new acronym....NHBR. "NOT HOODWINKED BY THE RAMSEYS".
..meaning,those who still look for that elusive 'intruder' and supporting the Ramsey's lies,are going to be doing just that for the rest of their lives,while the rest of us who are smart enough not to be fooled by them sit here and know an 'intruder' is never going to be found...because he doesn't exist!!!!!!
She says it loudly and she says it clear. :clap:

[coloradokares]

Personally I don't see how anyone in their RIGHT MIND cannot see that PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE DARN "RANSOM NOTE".
Maybe I should start a new acronym....NHBR. "NOT HOODWINKED BY THE RAMSEYS".
..meaning,those who are still looking for that elusive 'intruder' and supporting the Ramsey's lies,are going to be doing just that for the rest of their lives,while the rest of us who are smart enough not to be fooled by them sit here and know an 'intruder' is never going to be found...because he doesn't exist!!!!!!
And you're completely wasting your time trying to prove he does !!! (where is he,it's been 10 yrs !!!)
:clap:

[Veronica10]

Personally I don't see how anyone in their RIGHT MIND cannot see that PATSY RAMSEY WROTE THE DARN "RANSOM NOTE".
Maybe I should start a new acronym....NHBR. "NOT HOODWINKED BY THE RAMSEYS".
..meaning,those who are still looking for that elusive 'intruder' and supporting the Ramsey's lies,are going to be doing just that for the rest of their lives,while the rest of us who are smart enough not to be fooled by them sit here and know an 'intruder' is never going to be found...because he doesn't exist!!!!!!
And you're completely wasting your time trying to prove he does !!! (where is he,it's been 10 yrs !!!)
:woohoo: So right on!

She might as well have signed her name to it. Oh, and wasn't it so nice of the intruder to put the pen back in its proper container, what a nice murderer/intruder.

[JMO8778]

:woohoo: So right on!

She might as well have signed her name to it. Oh, and wasn't it so nice of the intruder to put the pen back in its proper container, what a nice murderer/intruder.tidy little critter,wasn't he?!

[coloradokares]

tidy little critter,wasn't he?!
or ....she?

[BlueCrab]

Let's get something straight here. I too don't believe there was an intruder, but that doesn't automatically mean that Patsy did it. There were at least two other people known to be in the house that night besides Patsy. But Patsy, without any credible evidence against her, was the one targeted early-on as the killer -- largely as the result of Steve Thomas' brazen tricks and lies.

For instance, on June 1 and 2, 1998 the whole world was watching as the nation's professionals, including the FBI and notables such as criminologist Dr. Henry Lee and DNA expert Barry Scheck gathered in Boulder for the BPD's presentation that was intended to prove that Patsy Ramsey likely murdered JonBenet, so that an indictment could then be lodged against her.

Steve Thomas was the main presenter. Item #5 in Thomas' presentation was "The Handwriting Was Patsy's". In front of the group, he deceptively tried to make it appear that, from the results of the CBI's 6 handwriting experts, there is proof that Patsy wrote the ransom note. Here's what Steve Thomas told them:

"The CBI examiners explained that of the 73 person's whose writing had been investigated, there was only one whose writing showed evidence that suggested authorship and had been in the home the night of the killing and could not be eliminated by no less than six document examiners -- Patsy Ramsey."

Thomas had deceptively buried the crucial but innocent-looking phrase "and had been in the home the night of the killing" in the middle of the long and illogically constructed sentence. Actually, the buried crucial phrase limits Thomas' statement to just 3 people, not 73 people.

But the damage was done, and to this day people still falsely believe that Patsy was the only one of 73 suspects tested who could not be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note.

BlueCrab

[UKGuy]

BlueCrab,

I agree with your analysis. Any one of the three residents, or a combination thereof may have killed JonBenet.

There is no smoking gun left in Patsy's hand, she may simply be an accessory or accomplice, after the fact, and either John or Burke may have killed JonBenet.

The violence employed against JonBenet suggest a male was directly involved, the references to chronic sexual abuse suggest a sexual motive may be behind her death.

That both parents colluded during the staging and after her death, e.g. amending statements, synchronising events, engaging in media PR, leads me to consider John as the prime candidate for suspect, but Burke cannot be ruled out.



.

[JMO8778]

or ....she?yes,that's it :)

[JMO8778]

Blue, I know that you don't support the intruder theory;I was just speaking in general.I know you can't openly name whom you think did it.Do you think it was more than one person around the same age,or just that person?

[Charlie]

Does anyone know where i could find an itemised list off all items the BPD took from the ramsey house as evidence? I'm hoping to see if the xmas lights are on there.

[Ames]

Does anyone know where i could find an itemised list off all items the BPD took from the ramsey house as evidence? I'm hoping to see if the xmas lights are on there.
I posted a LONG partial list, on another forum. I can go back, and see if I can find it, if you would like.

[Charlie]

I posted a LONG partial list, on another forum. I can go back, and see if I can find it, if you would like.

Thanks for the offer Ames, but i found it on acandyrose.com
The only problem is its handwritten and i cant make out all the items. If u stumble across it in the future let me know.

[BlueCrab]

Blue, I know that you don't support the intruder theory;I was just speaking in general.I know you can't openly name whom you think did it.Do you think it was more than one person around the same age,or just that person?


JMO,

IMO there were definitely two and perhaps three perpetrators, one of whom was a Ramsey family member. The third perp would have been a young adult of prosecutable age.

The endless string of lies from the Ramseys prove they have been engaged in a coverup since day one. The only reason the family of a murdered family member would refuse to cooperate and blatantly lie during the police investigation is if another family member was involved in the crime.

BlueCrab

[JMO8778]

JMO,

IMO there were definitely two and perhaps three perpetrators, one of whom was a Ramsey family member. The third perp would have been a young adult of prosecutable age.

The endless string of lies from the Ramseys prove they have been engaged in a coverup since day one. The only reason the family of a murdered family member would refuse to cooperate and blatantly lie during the police investigation is if another family member was involved in the crime.

BlueCrabI agree with that;I don't rule out either PR or JR though...do you think the young adult is someone related to the family as well???I don't know if I can say who it might have been here,but he was thought to be seen walking across the yard that day.

[SuperDave]

Thomas had deceptively buried the crucial but innocent-looking phrase "and had been in the home the night of the killing" in the middle of the long and illogically constructed sentence. Actually, the buried crucial phrase limits Thomas' statement to just 3 people, not 73 people.

Your point is well-made on its face, but that small-buried, you call it-sentence might sum it up more than people realize.

[Eagle1]

Do we have a source for the exact words "across the yard"? Because at times I've wondered if whoever it was may have passed on by right on the sidewalk. But then he would have gotten closer to Barnhill and would have been obligated to say hello, right?

[Solace]

JMO,

In addition to the two male children whom I suspect as the perpetrators, one of them a Ramsey, I don't think the young adult perpetrator, if there was one, was a Ramsey family member. The young person seen walking across the yard that day by neighbor Joe Barnhill was probably someone who looked like JAR, but JAR has what appears to be an ironclad alibi. He was in Atlanta.

However, due to the highly suspicious behaviors of the Stine family following the murder, I think DS and NI should both be thoroughly investigated. They both became suspects in my book due to their conspicuous absence from publicity. The absence seemes to be professionally managed. For instance, even though they both were important parts of JonBenet's life, it looks like their names were hurriedly deleted from author Larry Schiller's book PMPT after the investigative grand jury, following 13 months of interviews and investigations, was permanently adjourned in October of 1999 and a court gag order was slapped on the case. The public knows very little about them except for that which I have written about them on this forum.

BlueCrab
This case is as it appears - a rage killing by a mother and a staging abetted by the father. Berke had nada to do with this and that is further proved by his saying to his father "what did you find" and "what can I do".

He had nothing to do with it. All the theories in the world will not make it so. The problem with these Boards is that the outlandish theories come about and persist and as untrue as they might seem, they still persist. He DID NOT DO IT. He was 9, and he did not know what is happening that morning. He did what he was told to do. That is it, nothing more. Sorry.

[icedtea4me]

However, due to the highly suspicious behaviors of the Stine family following the murder, I think DS and NI should both be thoroughly investigated. They both became suspects in my book due to their conspicuous absence from publicity. The absence seemes to be professionally managed. For instance, even though they both were important parts of JonBenet's life, it looks like their names were hurriedly deleted from author Larry Schiller's book PMPT after the investigative grand jury, following 13 months of interviews and investigations, was permanently adjourned in October of 1999 and a court gag order was slapped on the case. The public knows very little about them except for that which I have written about them on this forum.

BlueCrabDoug Stine's name was not hurriedly deleted from Schiller's PMPT as it is in the pb's index.


-Tea

[Ames]

This case is as it appears - a rage killing by a mother and a staging abetted by the father. Berke had nada to do with this and that is further proved by his saying to his father "what did you find" and "what can I do".

He had nothing to do with it. All the theories in the world will not make it so. The problem with these Boards is that the outlandish theories come about and persist and as untrue as they might seem, they still persist. He DID NOT DO IT. He was 9, and he did not know what is happening that morning. He did what he was told to do. That is it, nothing more. Sorry.
I agree.. Burke didn't have a THING to do with his sister's murder.

[Ames]

Thanks for the offer Ames, but i found it on acandyrose.com
The only problem is its handwritten and i cant make out all the items. If u stumble across it in the future let me know.Here ya go Charlie...is this what you are looking for...its only a partial list, though.

Ramsey Evidence List (partial)

Item type Item Description/location Quantity ID # Initials

Weapon brick 1 12 BAB
Bedding Comforter from victim's bed 1 37 BAB
Bedding sheet top 1 38 BAB
Bedding sheet Bottom 1 39 BAB
Bedding Pillowcase 1 40 BAB
Clothing tights black 1 41 BAB
Linens bath towel 1 42 BAB
Clothing bath robe 1 43 BAB
Clothing underwear 1 45 BAB
Writing implement Marker black 1 46 BAB
Clothing turtleneck velvet 1 47 BAB
Weapon brick Red clay 1 48 BAB
Christmas Christmas ornament w/string 1 49 BAB
Weapon golf club cover 1 50 BAB
Linens towel 1 51 BAB
Toilet tissue 1 52 BAB
Toilet liquid from toilet 1 53 BAB
Toilet liquid from toilet 1 54 BAB
Clothing tights black and white 1 56 BAB
Clothing underwear childs 1 57 BAB
Clothing underwear childs 1 58 BAB
Clothing underwear childs 1 59 BAB
Writing implement Sharpie 1 60 BAB
Clothing tights black 1 62 BAB
Clothing sweater black/red/green christmas 1 63 BAB
Clothing pants black & gray, girls 1 64 BAB
Clothing vest black, velvet 1 65 BAB
Clothing shirt black 1 66 BAB
Clothing trousers black 1 67 BAB
Clothing Shoes 2 68 BAB
Paper samples Notepad 1 69 BAB
Christmas garland 71 BAB
Christmas garland 1 72 BAB
Weapon baseball bat 1 74 BAB
Christmas Bag containing ornaments Santa Claus Swift 1 76 BAB
Christmas Santa Claus suit 1 77 BAB
Records Note 1 78 BAB
Trace evidence Fingerprints of victim 79 BAB
Trace evidence Finger prints -hand drawing 80 BAB
records Birthday card 1 82 BAB
Paper samples Legal pad white lined 1 83 BAB
Christmas bow satin 1 86 BAB
Christmas garland 34 1 through 34 BAB
Bedding comforter Black 1 1 BAH
Bedding sheet black, velvet 1 2 BAH
Bedding bed sheet 1 3 BAH
Bedding sheet bottom 1 4 BAH
Wire Wire tied in knot 1 5 BAH
Weapon hammer 1 6 BAH
Hardware Laptop computer 1 7 BAH
Writing implement markers black 3 8 BAH
Writing implement pens 2 9 BAH
Writing implement marker and pens One marker, two pens 3 10 BAH
Writing implement markers large 3 11 BAH
Writing implement pens 5 12 BAH
Writing implement ball point pen 1 13 BAH
Writing implement fountain pen 1 14 BAH
Video video cassettes 2 15 BAH
Audio audio tape 1 16 BAH
Trace evidence paper brown 1 17 BAH
Video video cassette 1 19 BAH
Software computer discs 2 20 BAH
Records Christmas card 1 21 BAH
Video VHS video tape 1 22 BAH
Software computer disc 1 23 BAH
Video Betamax video tape 1 24 BAH
Video video tape 1 25 BAH
Video VHS tape 1 26 BAH
Software NEC computer disc 1 27 BAH
Software Macintosh computer disc 1 28 BAH
Software Macintosh McWrite computer disc 1 29 BAH
Video Betamax video tape 1 30 BAH
Computer manual Compuserve book 1 31 BAH
Computer manual I didn't know Compuserve book 1 32 BAH
Computer manual Dave Berry Cyberspace book 1 33 BAH
Clothing sweatpants blue 1 34 BAH
Clothing Sweatshirt gray 1 35 BAH
Hardware Computer hard drive 1 35 BAH
Clothing underwear girls 1 36 BAH
Records Notepad w/writing 1 37 BAH
Computer manual Macintosh users guidebook 1 39 BAH
Computer manual Apple Guide CD Roms Titles book 1 40 BAH
Software NEC disc 1 41 BAH
Software Supramodem disc 1 42 BAH
Software hypercard disc 1 43 BAH
Software NEC floppy disc 1 44 BAH
Computer manual Red line users guide and disc 1 45 BAH
Software Macintosh system discs 8 46 BAH
Software Macintosh CD Rom discs 8 47 BAH
Software Dyson discs 10 48 BAH
Software various computer discs 38 49 BAH
Video video cassette 1 50 BAH
Writing implement pen black 1 51 BAH
Computer manual computer book 1 52 BAH
Clothing underwear mens 1 53 BAH
Clothing pants mens 1 54 BAH
Audio cassette tape 1 55 BAH
Clothing underwear girls 1 56 BAH
Writing implement pen black 1 57 BAH
Trace evidence Cigarette butts, leaves & bag 58 BAH
Software CD Rom discs and computer disc (2 discs and 1 disc) 3 59 BAH
Software CD Rom discs and two computer discs 7 60 BAH
Clothing Underwear girls 1 61 BAH
Clothing Underwear girls 1 62 BAH
software computer disc 1 63 BAH
Publication Envelope w/prayer book 1 64 BAH
software misc. floppy discs 8 65 BAH
Software floppy discs 5.25" 3 66 BAH
Video VHS tape 1 67 BAH
Publication magazine articles 2 68 BAH
Software Prodigy Parselwork 1 69 BAH
Video video tapes 22 70 BAH
Video video tapes 10 71 BAH
Paper samples sheet of paper 1 72 BAH
Records paper w/names and phones # 1 72 BAH
Photography Camera with 3 rolls 35 mm film 4 74 BAH
Writing implement black felt pens 2 75 BAH
Clothing underwear Girls 5 76 BAH
Clothing underwear Girls 2 77 BAH
Video video tapes 20 78 BAH
Weapon golf club 1 79 BAH
Photos photo's 6 81 BAH
Trace evidence hair blonde 2 GLI
Weapon baseball bat 1 3 GLI
Weapon golf clubs 2 4 GLI
Misc. Window grate 1 GRV
Clothing Blouse 1 7 JRB
Clothing Underwear 1 8 JRB
Clothing Underwear 1 9 JRB
Video VHS tapes 15 9 JRB
Video VHS tapes 9 10 JRB
Video VHS tapes 17 11 JRB
Video VHS tapes 13 12 JRB
Video VHS tapes “4 (5)� 4 13 JRB
Video VHS tape 1 14 JRB
Publication Newspaper article 1 15 JRB
Writing implement magic marker 1 16 JRB
Christmas gift box w/black velvet 1 17 JRB
Records Phone and address book 1 18 JRB
records Ramsey residence flier 1 19 JRB
Weapon flashlight 1 20 JRB
Video VCR tapes 2 21 JRB
Records note Handwritten 1 1 12-31-96 JRB
Writing implement Sharpie 1 1 1-29-96 JRB
Video VHS videotape 1 2 12-31-96 JRB
Writing implement Sharpie 1 2 1-29-96 JRB
Video VHS videotape 1 3 12-31-96 JRB
Paper samples Notepad 1 3 1-29-96 JRB
Computer manual Outer disc users guide and papers 1 4 12-31-96 JRB
Video VHS video tapes 2 5 12-31-96 JRB
Video VHS videotapes 2 6 12-31-96 JRB
Writing implement Marker 1 6 1-29-96 JRB
Trace evidence Fibers from area by victim 1 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers from wine cellar 2 KKY
Clothing Sweatshirt Avalanche, covering body 1 4 KKY
Bedding Blanket covering body 1 5 KKY
Wire Wire near body 1 7 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers from under body 9 KKY
Bedding blanket White, in wine cellar 1 11 KKY
Clothing Nightgown Pink, Barbie, from wine cellar 1 12 KKY
Trace evidence Glass broken, from wine cellar 1 13 KKY
Trace evidence Hair fibers from floor of wine cellar 14 KKY
Trace evidence Wooden shards wooden, near paint tray 22 KKY
Misc. Paint tray 1 25 KKY
Trace evidence Paper blue, near rear south facing door 1 26 KKY
Ligature Rope from backyard 1 32 KKY
Ligature String white, from sled 1 33 KKY
Clothing Earring found in street 1 34 KKY
Misc. Canvas bag in crawlspace 1 37 KKY
Misc. sheet metal black, in wine cellar 1 39 KKY
Christmas ornament broken, purple, from basement 1 40 KKY
Weapon pocket knife red, w/broken ornament 1 41 KKY
Trace evidence fibers vacuumed 42 KKY
Writing implement Felt tip pen 1 43 KKY
Trace evidence Hair fibers from victim's pillow 44 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers from victim's bed 46 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers From victim's pillow 47 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers vacuumed from victim's bed 48 KKY
Trace evidence fibers Vacuumed from victim's pillow and bedspread 50 KKY
Writing implement Sharpie marker 1 51 KKY
Trace evidence Hair fibers from Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey's bed 52 KKY
Trace evidence Hair found in brush in Mr. Ramsey's bathroom 53 KKY
records Rolodex in Mr. Ramsey's desk 1 54 KKY
Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 55 KKY
Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 56 KKY
Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 57 KKY
Writing implement Marker 1 58 KKY
Writing implement Marker 1 59 KKY
Records Note handwritten 1 61 KKY
Records My Science Project" from Burke's bedroom 1 65 KKY
Records Notepad yellow, w/writing 1 66 KKY
Writing implement Pen 1 67 KKY
Christmas evergreen needles Artificial 68 KKY
Dining Bowl 1 71 KKY
Computer manual Microsoft Word manuals and disc 1 76 KKY
Video video tapes 10 77 KKY
Video VHS tapes 7 78 KKY
Records Letter to Santa 1 86 KKY
Video VHS videotapes 7 88 KKY
Video VHS tape 1 89 KKY
Video VHS tapes 3 90 KKY
photography rolls of film 35 mm 2 91 KKY
records research paper and drawings Victims 3 92 KKY
Photography Pentax camera and film 2 93 KKY
Software CD Roms. floppy discs (2 & 3) 5 94 KKY
Hardware Macintosh keyboard 1 95 KKY
Hardware modem with power cord 1 96 KKY
Hardware computer mouse 1 98 KKY
Hardware Macintosh computer 1 99 KKY
Hardware computer monitor 1 100 KKY
Misc. sleeping mask 1 101 KKY
Photos picture framed, of JonBenet 1 102 KKY
Trace evidence window broken 1 104 KKY
Photos picture framed, of Burke and JonBenet 1 105 KKY
Weapon paint brush Broken 1 PI KKY
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 5 KRV
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 6 KRV
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 7 KRV
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 8 KRV
Misc. Door from basement 1 14 KRV
Paper samples legal pad 1 15 KRV
Paper samples legal notepads 2 16 KRV
Video video cassette tape 1 17 KRV
Paper samples legal notepad 1 18 KRV
Software 3 1/2" computer discs 2 19 KRV
Records envelope w/carpet samples 1 9 MTE
Writing implement felt pen 1 11 MTE
records bike registration 1 12 MTE
Video Video from Hallway 1 13 MTE
Writing implement felt tip pen 1 15 MTE
Bedding bed sheet 1 16 MTE
Trace evidence carpet 8 1 through 8 MTE
Dining Spoon 1 5 PP
Trace evidence Glass 1 6 PP
Trace evidence Cotton from cellar room 7 PP
Christmas Angel from Christmas tree 1 8 PP
Toilet toilet tissue 1 10 PP
publication book USN OCS Seachest 801 1 11 PP
Lock Lock 1 12 PP
Toilet Toilet seat lid 1 13 PP
Publication Booklet how to use total one security control 1 14 PP
Publication AD booklet and 2 newspapers 1 15 PP
Software computer discs 2 16 PP
Lock door lock 1 17 PP
Lock door lock 1 18 PP
Bedding Blanket black and gold 1 19 PP
photos photos of victim 3 20 PP
Misc. suitcase blue 1 21 PP
Ligature Rope 1 81 RAH
Paper samples Notepad 1 1 RAW
Paper samples notepad 1 2 RAW

[philamena]

I agree.. Burke didn't have a THING to do with his sister's murder.I absolutely agree with this and that leads to my conclusion. Patsy did it and John helped cover it up. IMO

Thanks for the above list. Notice that underwear is listed several times.
Were the underwear taken single pairs or a package?
Clothing underwear girls 1 36 BAH

[Ames]

I absolutely agree with this and that leads to my conclusion. Patsy did it and John helped cover it up. IMO
That is what I believe in my heart happened, too.

[BlueCrab]

Thanks for the above list. Notice that underwear is listed several times.
Were the underwear taken single pairs or a package?


philamena,

The size 12/14 Bloomi's were in packages and were located in JonBenet's bedroom. They were intended to be given to Patsy's 13-year-old niece, but one package had been opened and a pair of the hugely oversize panties were found on JonBenet's body.

There were 15 pairs of underwear located in JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bathroom. All of them were size 4 and size 6.

It's interesting to note that Patsy claimed that JonBenet normally wore size 6 and size 8, but no size 8's were found in the house -- just size 4's and 6's.

BlueCrab

[Solace]

That is what I believe in my heart happened, too.
But it looks like Patsy and John did a great job of averting attention from them as far as the murder goes, because there have been lots of popsters here who believe if the theory that children did this crime.

[BlueCrab]

But it looks like Patsy and John did a great job of averting attention from them as far as the murder goes, because there have been lots of popsters here who believe if the theory that children did this crime.


Solace,

I agree with you on this one. About 20 percent of the WS members lean toward the BDI theory, as do I. IMO the BDI evidence far outweighs all other theories, including the childrens' likely use of a stun gun as they were experimenting with extreme thrills and erotic asphixiation sex -- accidentally killing JonBenet. The parents covered it up and, because of the positions they held in the community and the ages of the children, managed to get Boulder authorities to join in what amounts to a conspiratorial coverup.

Incidentally, on the news today there was a father who for at least 10 times used a full-powered stun gun on his 18-month-old son, apparently to control the child.

BlueCrab

[JBRMod2]

Bluecrab - please clear your inbox.

[Solace]

Solace,

I agree with you on this one. About 20 percent of the WS members lean toward the BDI theory, as do I. IMO the BDI evidence far outweighs all other theories, including the childrens' likely use of a stun gun as they were experimenting with extreme thrills and erotic asphixiation sex -- accidentally killing JonBenet. The parents covered it up and, because of the positions they held in the community and the ages of the children, managed to get Boulder authorities to join in what amounts to a conspiratorial coverup.

Incidentally, on the news today there was a father who for at least 10 times used a full-powered stun gun on his 18-month-old son, apparently to control the child.

BlueCrab
I cannot even comment on the above anymore. It is just so absurd. It really is. Now they were using a stun gun. Where is the stun gun and it has never surfaced before. There are also those who would dispute the marks are those of a stun gun and I am sure you know that but disagree. I have to go now. I have plans on planet earth.

[Ames]

Solace,

I agree with you on this one. About 20 percent of the WS members lean toward the BDI theory, as do I. IMO the BDI evidence far outweighs all other theories, including the childrens' likely use of a stun gun as they were experimenting with extreme thrills and erotic asphixiation sex -- accidentally killing JonBenet. The parents covered it up and, because of the positions they held in the community and the ages of the children, managed to get Boulder authorities to join in what amounts to a conspiratorial coverup.

Incidentally, on the news today there was a father who for at least 10 times used a full-powered stun gun on his 18-month-old son, apparently to control the child.

BlueCrab
Sorry, but IMO...this is completely ridiculous...

[Solace]

Sorry, but IMO...this is completely ridiculous...
I agree.

[BlueCrab]

I cannot even comment on the above anymore. It is just so absurd. It really is. Now they were using a stun gun. Where is the stun gun and it has never surfaced before. There are also those who would dispute the marks are those of a stun gun and I am sure you know that but disagree. I have to go now. I have plans on planet earth.


Solace,

The injuries on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. This is confirmed by Dr. John Meyer, the only qualified person who saw and analyzed the injuries in person. Others in the field who have experience with stun gun injuries also agreed after reviewing the autopsy photos.

I'm sure you agree there was no intruder. Therefore, are you saying the parents stungunned JonBenet?

BlueCrab

[Ames]

Solace,

The injuries on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. This is confirmed by Dr. John Meyer, the only qualified person who saw and analyzed the injuries in person. Others in the field who have experience with stun gun injuries also agreed after reviewing the autopsy photos.

I'm sure you agree there was no intruder. Therefore, are you saying the parents stungunned JonBenet?

BlueCrab
And you are thinking that her nine year old brother stungunned JonBenet??

[Solace]

Solace,

The injuries on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. This is confirmed by Dr. John Meyer, the only qualified person who saw and analyzed the injuries in person. Others in the field who have experience with stun gun injuries also agreed after reviewing the autopsy photos.

I'm sure you agree there was no intruder. Therefore, are you saying the parents stungunned JonBenet?

BlueCrabI do not believe a stun gun was used.

UPDATE 5/28/01 - Lou Smit appeared on Larry King Live. A portion of the transcript for the show follows:

SMIT: I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun.
KING: Meaning?
SMIT: Meaning that the Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenét.

and

KANE: The thing about the stun gun that everybody keeps coming back to. There was one person who was qualified who actually looked at that little girl?s body on the autopsy table and that was Dr. Meyer, who?s a forensic pathologist. He looked at those very marks and said that they were abrasions. It is a quantum leap-you can take a stun gun and put it up against somebody?s body...and it?s going to leave a burn. It dosen't leave an abrasion. So all these other opinions that have come out that said that this was a stun gun, there is absolutely no way they would ever get into evidence because there is no evidence that these were burns.

ABRAMS: But, ... there were other experts like Mr. Doberson and others and Lou Smit who have said they absolutely believe that there was a stun gun used.
KANE: But they?re basing that based on photographs of marks on her body. When the uncontradicted evidence of Dr. Meyer is that these were not burns.

[BlueCrab]

I do not believe a stun gun was used.

UPDATE 5/28/01 - Lou Smit appeared on Larry King Live. A portion of the transcript for the show follows:

SMIT: I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun.
KING: Meaning?
SMIT: Meaning that the Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenét.

and

KANE: The thing about the stun gun that everybody keeps coming back to. There was one person who was qualified who actually looked at that little girl?s body on the autopsy table and that was Dr. Meyer, who?s a forensic pathologist. He looked at those very marks and said that they were abrasions. It is a quantum leap-you can take a stun gun and put it up against somebody?s body...and it?s going to leave a burn. It dosen't leave an abrasion. So all these other opinions that have come out that said that this was a stun gun, there is absolutely no way they would ever get into evidence because there is no evidence that these were burns.

ABRAMS: But, ... there were other experts like Mr. Doberson and others and Lou Smit who have said they absolutely believe that there was a stun gun used.
KANE: But they?re basing that based on photographs of marks on her body. When the uncontradicted evidence of Dr. Meyer is that these were not burns.


Solace,

Kane is either deliberately lying or is a blooming idiot. Having headed up the grand jury, he should certainly know better, so I think he is deliberately lying.

John Meyer did originally describe the strange marks as abrasions and that's how they are described in the autopsy. But when later confronted with additional information he changed his opinion:

Pg 431, PMPT pb:

"After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

On that same page of PMPT Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist in a murder case where a stun gun was used on a very young girl, was shown the autopsy photos of JonBenet's injuries. Deters agreed with Meyer that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury.

It's obvious that Mike Kane deliberately lied. Why? I can tell you why; but why can't you and others figure out why? It's as plain as the noses on your faces -- but IMO it's so incredulous that you are afraid to admit it.

BlueCrab

[Ames]

I do not believe a stun gun was used.

UPDATE 5/28/01 - Lou Smit appeared on Larry King Live. A portion of the transcript for the show follows:

SMIT: I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun.
KING: Meaning?
SMIT: Meaning that the Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenét.

and

KANE: The thing about the stun gun that everybody keeps coming back to. There was one person who was qualified who actually looked at that little girl?s body on the autopsy table and that was Dr. Meyer, who?s a forensic pathologist. He looked at those very marks and said that they were abrasions. It is a quantum leap-you can take a stun gun and put it up against somebody?s body...and it?s going to leave a burn. It dosen't leave an abrasion. So all these other opinions that have come out that said that this was a stun gun, there is absolutely no way they would ever get into evidence because there is no evidence that these were burns.

ABRAMS: But, ... there were other experts like Mr. Doberson and others and Lou Smit who have said they absolutely believe that there was a stun gun used.
KANE: But they?re basing that based on photographs of marks on her body. When the uncontradicted evidence of Dr. Meyer is that these were not burns.
Thanks for posting this....yes, I would think that someone that actually LOOKED at and SAW the marks on her body, with her lying on the autopsy table, would be 100 percent more qualified to say what they believe those marks are (abrasions)...than someone who just looked at pictures of her body and the marks. Mr. Doberson, Lou Smit...and other "experts" were NOT there...so how would THEY know WHAT made those marks? They cannot tell by looking at a picture...thats ridiculous to think that they can.

[Ames]

Solace,

Kane is either deliberately lying or is a blooming idiot. Having headed up the grand jury, he should certainly know better, so I think he is deliberately lying.

John Meyer did originally describe the strange marks as abrasions and that's how they are described in the autopsy. But when later confronted with additional information he changed his opinion:

Pg 431, PMPT pb:

"After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

On that same page of PMPT Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist in a murder case where a stun gun was used on a very young girl, was shown the autopsy photos of JonBenet's injuries. Deters agreed with Meyer that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury.

It's obvious that Mike Kane deliberately lied. Why? I can tell you why; but why can't you and others figure out why? It's as plain as the noses on your faces -- but IMO it's so incredulous that you are afraid to admit it.

BlueCrab
I forgot...now WHO wrote the book PMPT?

[philamena]

Lawrence Schiller (http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Murder-Town-Lawrence-Schiller/dp/0060191538)

wrote Perfect Murder Murder Town.

[coloradokares]

I forgot...now WHO wrote the book PMPT? Schiller

[Credence]

Right, WolfmarsGirl's theory. I think she's onto something. Here's some info I found in a search.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3971

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4603 How would the rings make two marks in two different places with identical spacing in between?

[Jayelles]

How would the rings make two marks in two different places with identical spacing in between?
There is only one PAIR of marks. The other "stungun mark" is a single. This is one of the weaknesses of the stungun theory. One pair does not make a pattern. Had there been several pairs of identical marks it would have been a whole different ballgame.

Over the years, I have seen the RST come up with a variety of explanations as to why there is only one mark on her face, but none of them stand up.

e.g. - the second prong landed on the duct tape

Had this happened, it's possible that the stungun wouldn't have worked because duct tape has insultating properties. I am not claiming this as a fact because I don't know for certain whether the insulating properties would be sufficient to prevent the stungun from working but it's a possibility according to two physicists I asked.

there is also a photo where there is a little white mark on her face and jameson claimed this was (white) adhesive from the (black) duct tape which had melted onto her face as a result of the second prong landing on the duct tape. However, this only raises more questions..... if there was one teensy spot of adhesive on her face which was exactly 3.4cm from the other "stungun" mark wouldn't Lou Smit have been shouting it from the rooftops as further proof of his stungun theory? But no - Lou has been silent. Also, the white mark on that particular photo isn't evident in the other photos and might well be a blemish in the photo (or someone's attempt to make people think the adhesive theory was plausible).

Another problem with the "stungun landed on the duct tape" theory is that Jonbenet was already unconscious or dead when the duct tape was applied. This is known because a perfect lip print was found on the sticky side of the duct tape - i.e. she didn't struggle or try to scream when the duct tape was across her mouth. So why stungun a dead or unconscious child? The same people who agreed with this possibility are the very people who think a stungun was used to torture her. Can't have it both ways.

Then some pople claim there IS a corresponding mark - it's just a very tiny faint one though. The problem with this is that it isn't mentioned in the autopsy and the mark in question looks more like a skin blemish than a burn.

Finally, the leading expert on stunungs - Robert Stratbucker - says the marks are not stungun marks and he should know. He has conducted extensive experiments on pigs and more importantly on humans. He then took photos of the marks at regular intervals until they disappeared.

[Jayelles]

Also - regarding the rings. There is another photo of Patsy wearing her rings with stones to the inside. I tried to find this second photo without success but I remember that Patsy was wearing a light coloured suit and was taken as she was just leaving or just about to get into a car. I think it may have been when the Ramseys spoke briefly to the press on leaving their Atlanta interviews in 2000. I'm sure a copy of this photo will be around somewhere.

[BlueCrab]

There is only one PAIR of marks. The other "stungun mark" is a single. This is one of the weaknesses of the stungun theory. One pair does not make a pattern. Had there been several pairs of identical marks it would have been a whole different ballgame.

Over the years, I have seen the RST come up with a variety of explanations as to why there is only one mark on her face, but none of them stand up.

e.g. - the second prong landed on the duct tape

Had this happened, it's possible that the stungun wouldn't have worked because duct tape has insultating properties. I am not claiming this as a fact because I don't know for certain whether the insulating properties would be sufficient to prevent the stungun from working but it's a possibility according to two physicists I asked.

there is also a photo where there is a little white mark on her face and jameson claimed this was (white) adhesive from the (black) duct tape which had melted onto her face as a result of the second prong landing on the duct tape. However, this only raises more questions..... if there was one teensy spot of adhesive on her face which was exactly 3.4cm from the other "stungun" mark wouldn't Lou Smit have been shouting it from the rooftops as further proof of his stungun theory? But no - Lou has been silent. Also, the white mark on that particular photo isn't evident in the other photos and might well be a blemish in the photo (or someone's attempt to make people think the adhesive theory was plausible).

Another problem with the "stungun landed on the duct tape" theory is that Jonbenet was already unconscious or dead when the duct tape was applied. This is known because a perfect lip print was found on the sticky side of the duct tape - i.e. she didn't struggle or try to scream when the duct tape was across her mouth. So why stungun a dead or unconscious child? The same people who agreed with this possibility are the very people who think a stungun was used to torture her. Can't have it both ways.

Then some pople claim there IS a corresponding mark - it's just a very tiny faint one though. The problem with this is that it isn't mentioned in the autopsy and the mark in question looks more like a skin blemish than a burn.

Finally, the leading expert on stunungs - Robert Stratbucker - says the marks are not stungun marks and he should know. He has conducted extensive experiments on pigs and more importantly on humans. He then took photos of the marks at regular intervals until they disappeared.


Jayelles,

No two stun gun injuries are alike. When the business end of a stun gun is pressed against the body of a squirming victim and the trigger pulled, the pressure, angle, and amount of electrical resistance encountered by each of the two prongs is different. One prong does not even have to touch the victim for the other prong to be effective. And the length of time the trigger is held will determine how severe each of the electrical burns will be.

Air Taser and Robert Stratbucker have a financial business relationship together. Air Taser does not want to publicly connect its stun gun with the death of JonBenet because of the resulting negative public relations, so Stratbucker's testimony on stun guns will always be somewhat biased.

There is no discrepancy in the measurements between the injuries on JonBenet and the distance between the prongs of an Air Taser stun gun. From the close-up autopsy photos the rectangular twin injuries on JonBenet's back measure 3.5 cm centerline to centerline. The distance between the twin prongs of the Air Taser stun gun measures 3.5 cm centerline to centerline.

This is much more than just a coincidence. JonBenet's injuries are from an Air Taser stun gun.

BlueCrab

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

No two stun gun injuries are alike. When the business end of a stun gun is pressed against the body of a squirming victim and the trigger pulled, the pressure, angle, and amount of electrical resistance encountered by each of the two prongs is different. One prong does not even have to touch the victim for the other prong to be effective. And the length of time the trigger is held will determine how severe each of the electrical burns will be.

Air Taser and Robert Stratbucker have a financial business relationship together. Air Taser does not want to publicly connect its stun gun with the death of JonBenet because of the resulting negative public relations, so Stratbucker's testimony on stun guns will always be somewhat biased.

There is no discrepancy in the measurements between the injuries on JonBenet and the distance between the prongs of an Air Taser stun gun. From the close-up autopsy photos the rectangular twin injuries on JonBenet's back measure 3.5 cm centerline to centerline. The distance between the twin prongs of the Air Taser stun gun measures 3.5 cm centerline to centerline.

This is much more than just a coincidence. JonBenet's injuries are from an Air Taser stun gun.

BlueCrab
We have discussed this many times Bluecrab and we will not agree. Lin Wood tried to discredit Robert Stratbucker on the grounds of his business relationship with Air Taser but that is quite frankly nonsense because no-one is claiming that she was stungunned with an Air Taser - in fact Lou Smit is on record as saying that he is not claiming that it was an Air Taser - primarily because the Air Taser doesn't match the marks on Jonbenet. He says it is the "closest" only.

The reason Robert Stratbucker was hired by Taser is because of his expertise - not the other way around. Stratbucker's work with stunguns dates back to the 1980s - long before his association with Taser. At the end of the day, stunguns are weapons. They are sold as weapons. *IF* JonBenet was injured with a stungun, that is hardly Taser's fault and they have no reason to try and distance themselves from it. It's not as though she was injured through some negligence on the part of the company or because their product was faulty.

Robert Stratbucker and Wener Spitz both state that they do not believe the marks on JonBenet were caused by a stungun. They say that because they believe it - not because either of them has shares in the company.

[Solace]

Solace,

Kane is either deliberately lying or is a blooming idiot. Having headed up the grand jury, he should certainly know better, so I think he is deliberately lying.

John Meyer did originally describe the strange marks as abrasions and that's how they are described in the autopsy. But when later confronted with additional information he changed his opinion:

Pg 431, PMPT pb:

"After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

On that same page of PMPT Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist in a murder case where a stun gun was used on a very young girl, was shown the autopsy photos of JonBenet's injuries. Deters agreed with Meyer that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury.

It's obvious that Mike Kane deliberately lied. Why? I can tell you why; but why can't you and others figure out why? It's as plain as the noses on your faces -- but IMO it's so incredulous that you are afraid to admit it.

BlueCrab
Blue Crab,

You can't have it both ways. Either Meyer is changing his story or PM/PT is reporting bogus information. There is definitely some sloppy reporting in PM/PT because Schiller did not always do the best research. Kane has no reason to lie. This is not the first time you accuse someone of lying when it does not fit your theory. As far as posting Dr. Deter's theory, we could go back and forth with doctors for and against. The fact is Meyer in his autopsy report said they were "abrasions". That is what we are working with here Blue Crab, not a book. We are working with what would be admissable in Court. They are listed as abrasions. Also, the parameters between the "marks" do NOT match that of a stun gun.

Also, do you want to comment on what Lou Smit said on LKL or are you just ignoring that?

No stun gun was used that night or early morning. It was rage, full out rage, by Patsy Ramsey. Berke was asleep and knew nothing of what was going on and he proves that by asking what was found. There were NO OTHER CHILDREN in the house that night. Two adults, two children and one was found dead. Try to deal with the facts Blue Crab.

[coloradokares]

Jayelles,

No two stun gun injuries are alike. When the business end of a stun gun is pressed against the body of a squirming victim and the trigger pulled, the pressure, angle, and amount of electrical resistance encountered by each of the two prongs is different. One prong does not even have to touch the victim for the other prong to be effective. And the length of time the trigger is held will determine how severe each of the electrical burns will be.

Air Taser and Robert Stratbucker have a financial business relationship together. Air Taser does not want to publicly connect its stun gun with the death of JonBenet because of the resulting negative public relations, so Stratbucker's testimony on stun guns will always be somewhat biased.

There is no discrepancy in the measurements between the injuries on JonBenet and the distance between the prongs of an Air Taser stun gun. From the close-up autopsy photos the rectangular twin injuries on JonBenet's back measure 3.5 cm centerline to centerline. The distance between the twin prongs of the Air Taser stun gun measures 3.5 cm centerline to centerline.

This is much more than just a coincidence. JonBenet's injuries are from an Air Taser stun gun.

BlueCrabLets go with that assumption a moment for the sake of discourse. I believe like Jayelles it was the rings, but I want to just take a natural progression here. Your theory includes a couple children age 9 ish or so. Correct? What in the world are they doing with stunguns in the middle of the night? :confused: All parts of the theory have to work in order for the theory to be totally plausible and likely. I am just thinking IF I had a stun gun .....it'd not be where the kids could get it....

[Solace]

Lets go with that assumption a moment for the sake of discourse. I believe like Jayelles it was the rings, but I want to just take a natural progression here. Your theory includes a couple children age 9 ish or so. Correct? What in the world are they doing with stunguns in the middle of the night? :confused: All parts of the theory have to work in order for the theory to be totally plausible and likely. I am just thinking IF I had a stun gun .....it'd not be where the kids could get it....
There is no stun gun and there are no kids playing sex games in the middle of the night except in BlueCrab's mind. Period.:rolleyes:

[coloradokares]

There is no stun gun and there are no kids playing sex games in the middle of the night except in BlueCrab's mind. Period.:rolleyes:
Yes that works for me Solace.

[Jayelles]

Lets go with that assumption a moment for the sake of discourse. I believe like Jayelles it was the rings, but I want to just take a natural progression here. Your theory includes a couple children age 9 ish or so. Correct? What in the world are they doing with stunguns in the middle of the night? :confused: All parts of the theory have to work in order for the theory to be totally plausible and likely. I am just thinking IF I had a stun gun .....it'd not be where the kids could get it....
I didn't say I thought it was rings. I haven't a clue what caused the marks, but I'm not convinced that it was a stungun - on the evidence as it stands. There is a tissue test they can do which would prove stungun or no stungun. The electrical charge alters the tissue. However, an exhumation wold have been necessary - and it's too late now.

I saw a tv programme last year which showed crime photos of a woman's face and the marks looked exactly like those marks on JBR. I had the sound muted at the time and quickly put the sound on to listen to the commentary. I posted about it at the time and now I can't remember the name of the person who was convicted of assaulting this woman (it will be in the archives I'm sure). However, the marks were caused by her getting beaten up - not by a stungun.

[coloradokares]

I didn't say I thought it was rings. I haven't a clue what caused the marks, but I'm not convinced that it was a stungun - on the evidence as it stands. There is a tissue test they can do which would prove stungun or no stungun. The electrical charge alters the tissue. However, an exhumation wold have been necessary - and it's too late now.

I saw a tv programme last year which showed crime photos of a woman's face and the marks looked exactly like those marks on JBR. I had the sound muted at the time and quickly put the sound on to listen to the commentary. I posted about it at the time and now I can't remember the name of the person who was convicted of assaulting this woman (it will be in the archives I'm sure). However, the marks were caused by her getting beaten up - not by a stungun.Sorry about that Jayelles. Your right . You mentioned the rings, rather photo of the rings which I have seen on FFJ if my memory serves me correctly. And since that is what I think most likely made the marks I did a very bad thing. I made an assumption. Glad you caught me on that one. I'll try much harder in the future to stop where another posters own words stop. thanks :doh:
I'll try to be more careful from here on out ok. :D

[Solace]

Sorry about that Jayelles. Your right . You mentioned the rings, rather photo of the rings which I have seen on FFJ if my memory serves me correctly. And since that is what I think most likely made the marks I did a very bad thing. I made an assumption. Glad you caught me on that one. I'll try much harder in the future to stop where another posters own words stop. thanks :doh:
I'll try to be more careful from here on out ok. :D
You are sweet Colorado.;)

[coloradokares]

You are sweet Colorado.
As long as you don't add Sweet as honeysuckle right off the vine ;) I am ok with that :D

[Ames]

Sorry about that Jayelles. Your right . You mentioned the rings, rather photo of the rings which I have seen on FFJ if my memory serves me correctly. And since that is what I think most likely made the marks I did a very bad thing. I made an assumption. Glad you caught me on that one. I'll try much harder in the future to stop where another posters own words stop. thanks :doh:
I'll try to be more careful from here on out ok. :D
I believe that the rings made the marks also....there was no stun gun involved..IMO

[Nuisanceposter]

I don't believe a stun gun was used, either. I have no idea what made those marks on JonBenet, but I consider the ring theory to be as plausible as the stun gun theory. Those marks on JB and the set of the stones in the rings seem to line right up, and we've seen Patsy with her rings turned in towards her palms more than once on television. KingCoyote over at the board I dare not mention speculated recently that perhaps the marks had been made by one of JonBenet's crowns. I think that's also plausible and worth checking out in better detail.

The thing that gets me is, Meyer didn't call them burns in his autopsy. Even if he later said while viewing a picture that the marks could have been consistent with stun gun marks, he still called them abrasions and not burns in the autopsy, and if that was his first impression, then it's probably right. If those marks had looked like electrical burns, he'd have described them that way in his report. Apparently he did not think they looked like burns when he had her body lying on the table in front of him.

I really wish he had kept JonBenet's body for more testing when BPD asked him to, and I also wish someone had placed justice for a murdered child above the so-called sanctity of a grave and exhumed her to get some more definite tests and results.

[Solace]

As long as you don't add Sweet as honeysuckle right off the vine ;) I am ok with that :D
I stand by my post.:snooty:

[coloradokares]

I stand by my post.:snooty:
What a hoot!!

[Ames]

What a hoot!!
LOL .... Yes, CK....Solace is standing firm on this, she is NOT GOING TO BUDGE... Reminds me of Patsy, when her butt didn't leave the couch..and she had to be PULLED down the hall. She didn't BUDGE EITHER!!! I second that though....you ARE SWEET.

[coloradokares]

LOL .... Yes, CK....Solace is standing firm on this, she is NOT GOING TO BUDGE... Reminds me of Patsy, when her butt didn't leave the couch..and she had to be PULLED down the hall. She didn't BUDGE EITHER!!! I second that though....you ARE SWEET.
Well..... sometimes.....HA!!

[Solace]

LOL .... Yes, CK....Solace is standing firm on this, she is NOT GOING TO BUDGE... Reminds me of Patsy, when her butt didn't leave the couch..and she had to be PULLED down the hall. She didn't BUDGE EITHER!!! I second that though....you ARE SWEET.
She had to be pulled down the hall but she really loved that child.

[Nuisanceposter]

She had to be pulled down the hall but she really loved that child.Loved her to death.

[Ames]

Loved her to death.
GOOD ONE, NP.

[coloradokares]

She had to be pulled down the hall but she really loved that child.
Yeah.....what does this say. That she really did not love JonBenet. Or that she knew she was dead and couldn't bring herself to see once again what rage can do..... I wonder if we will ever know for sure? Here is what keeps playing on my mind. What if John confessed all....Could we believe it....after all the inconsistencies....I am not sure the truth would be recognized or believed if it was told. Leaves me naseous just to think about it.

[JMO8778]

I agree.me too.I think if JR was innocent and really thought a SG might have been used,he would have been all too anxious to have JB exhumed to prove it.Until that day comes,( and I don't think it ever will),I can't possibly beleive that theory.

[Ames]

me too.I think if JR was innocent and really thought a SG might have been used,he would have been all too anxious to have JB exhumed to prove it.Until that day comes,( and I don't think it ever will),I can't possibly beleive that theory.
I agree....he doesn't want her body exhumed..because he is afraid of WHAT ELSE they might find.

[BlueCrab]

There is only one PAIR of marks. The other "stungun mark" is a single. This is one of the weaknesses of the stungun theory. One pair does not make a pattern. Had there been several pairs of identical marks it would have been a whole different ballgame.



Jayelles,

There are, IMO, actually THREE pairs of stun gun marks on JonBenet. Since the three stun gun hits are in three entirely different parts of the body, they do not closely resemble each other in appearance. As you know, the contours and thicknesses of the skin is different among the face, the lower back, and the lower leg near the ankle.

The stun gun injury on JonBenet's left lower back, consisting of twin rectangular burns, is the easiest to identify and to measure because the back is flat and the twin electrodes encounter almost identical skin contours and thicknesses.

The stun gun injury on JonBenet's face, which you refer to as a "single", actually has two identifiable marks on the skin, but they are harder to identify. The twin of the prominent ugly burn near her right ear is the white mark on the chin located 1 3/8 inches from the prominent mark.

The white signature mark from a prong of a stun gun is not unusual. For instance, the stun gun marks on the face of murder victim Gerald Boggs look very close to the stun gun marks on the face of JonBenet Ramsey. The large ugly burn on Boggs, like JonBenet, was near the right ear. But the accompanying white mark on Boggs was on his earlobe instead of on his chin.

The twin stun gun marks on JonBenet's lower left were also hard to identify because of the contours of a six-year-old's leg near the ankle. Nevertheless, Meyer was able to measure the two rectangular burn marks, which he originally identified as abrasions.

Meyer, the only qualified pathologist who examined the injuries in person, later admitted that the "abrasions" were also consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

[SuperDave]

Ah, but what about the marks inside the marks?

[JMO8778]

Ah, but what about the marks inside the marks?Right,the boat-shaped one in particular..

I haven't heard an explanation of why someone would stun her on the side of her neck and on the leg.That doesn't even make any sense to me.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

There are, IMO, actually THREE pairs of stun gun marks on JonBenet. Since the three stun gun hits are in three entirely different parts of the body, they do not closely resemble each other in appearance. As you know, the contours and thicknesses of the skin is different among the face, the lower back, and the lower leg near the ankle.

The stun gun injury on JonBenet's left lower back, consisting of twin rectangular burns, is the easiest to identify and to measure because the back is flat and the twin electrodes encounter almost identical skin contours and thicknesses.

The stun gun injury on JonBenet's face, which you refer to as a "single", actually has two identifiable marks on the skin, but they are harder to identify. The twin of the prominent ugly burn near her right ear is the white mark on the chin located 1 3/8 inches from the prominent mark.

The white signature mark from a prong of a stun gun is not unusual. For instance, the stun gun marks on the face of murder victim Gerald Boggs look very close to the stun gun marks on the face of JonBenet Ramsey. The large ugly burn on Boggs, like JonBenet, was near the right ear. But the accompanying white mark on Boggs was on his earlobe instead of on his chin.

The twin stun gun marks on JonBenet's lower left were also hard to identify because of the contours of a six-year-old's leg near the ankle. Nevertheless, Meyer was able to measure the two rectangular burn marks, which he originally identified as abrasions.

Meyer, the only qualified pathologist who examined the injuries in person, later admitted that the "abrasions" were also consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab
Nope.

[BlueCrab]

IMO the Ramseys owned a stun gun. Why else would an INSTRUCTIONAL video tape on stun guns, IN ENGLISH, NOT SPANISH, be found in the house? Spy World in Miami, where it was likely purchased and carried out of the store by John and Patsy in 1995, sold Taser brand hand-held stun guns, but would not have given the Ramseys a free instructional video tape unless the Ramseys had purchased a stun gun. The store more appropriately would have given the Ramseys a brochure.

Moreover, John Ramsey never admitted that the stun gun instructional tape was in Spanish; he only admitted that a video catalog from Spy World arrived in the mail "later", and the catalog was in Spanish.

The stun gun is missing along with a lot of other crime scene evidence, such as the roll of black duct tape, the rest of the white nylon cord, a pair of size 6 panties, the tip of the wooden paint brush handle, the wipe-down cloth, the nine notebook pages, Burke's Hi-Tec hiking boots, the red ink pen, and the murder weapon. The missing crime scene evidence strongly suggests there was a fifth person in the house that night who was there at the invitation of a Ramsey and who took as much incriminating evidence with him as the perps could think of -- including the stun gun.

BlueCrab

[Solace]

IMO the Ramseys owned a stun gun. Why else would an INSTRUCTIONAL video tape on stun guns, IN ENGLISH, NOT SPANISH, be found in the house? Spy World in Miami, where it was likely purchased and carried out of the store by John and Patsy in 1995, sold Taser brand hand-held stun guns, but would not have given the Ramseys a free instructional video tape unless the Ramseys had purchased a stun gun. The store more appropriately would have given the Ramseys a brochure.

Moreover, John Ramsey never admitted that the stun gun instructional tape was in Spanish; he only admitted that a video catalog from Spy World arrived in the mail "later", and the catalog was in Spanish.

The stun gun is missing along with a lot of other crime scene evidence, such as the roll of black duct tape, the rest of the white nylon cord, a pair of size 6 panties, the tip of the wooden paint brush handle, the wipe-down cloth, the nine notebook pages, Burke's Hi-Tec hiking boots, the red ink pen, and the murder weapon. The missing crime scene evidence strongly suggests there was a fifth person in the house that night who was there at the invitation of a Ramsey and who took as much incriminating evidence with him as the perps could think of -- including the stun gun.

BlueCrab
This crime is as it seems, a rage killing involving the parents. Most crimes are as they seem and this one is no different.

[UKGuy]

IMO the Ramseys owned a stun gun. Why else would an INSTRUCTIONAL video tape on stun guns, IN ENGLISH, NOT SPANISH, be found in the house? Spy World in Miami, where it was likely purchased and carried out of the store by John and Patsy in 1995, sold Taser brand hand-held stun guns, but would not have given the Ramseys a free instructional video tape unless the Ramseys had purchased a stun gun. The store more appropriately would have given the Ramseys a brochure.

Moreover, John Ramsey never admitted that the stun gun instructional tape was in Spanish; he only admitted that a video catalog from Spy World arrived in the mail "later", and the catalog was in Spanish.

The stun gun is missing along with a lot of other crime scene evidence, such as the roll of black duct tape, the rest of the white nylon cord, a pair of size 6 panties, the tip of the wooden paint brush handle, the wipe-down cloth, the nine notebook pages, Burke's Hi-Tec hiking boots, the red ink pen, and the murder weapon. The missing crime scene evidence strongly suggests there was a fifth person in the house that night who was there at the invitation of a Ramsey and who took as much incriminating evidence with him as the perps could think of -- including the stun gun.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Interesting information, but why would another family member sanction, or a family friend need to use a stun-gun on JonBenet she was just 6-years old?


.

[BlueCrab]

This crime is as it seems, a rage killing involving the parents. Most crimes are as they seem and this one is no different.


Solace,

So, according to you, the parents tortured their six-year-old daughter with a stun gun, sexually abused her, viciously garroted her, split her skull in two with a powerful smash to the head, and then wrote an amateurish fake ransom note in an effort to cover up their crime.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. No parents in the history of crime have ever come close to doing that to one of their children.

BlueCrab

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Interesting information, but why would another family member sanction, or a family friend need to use a stun-gun on JonBenet she was just 6-years old?


.

UKGuy,

IMO, sadistic torture.

BlueCrab

[Solace]

Solace,

So, according to you, the parents tortured their six-year-old daughter with a stun gun, sexually abused her, viciously garroted her, split her skull in two with a powerful smash to the head, and then wrote an amateurish fake ransom note in an effort to cover up their crime.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. No parents in the history of crime have ever come close to doing that to one of their children.

BlueCrab
Again, as I have posted before and you read it, I do NOT believe a stun gun was used. Blue Crab, so you are an expert on what parents can do to their children. This was a rage killing and the rest is staging to cover it up. Once again. There is no stun gun used. The garrotting is a staging, the sexual assault is a staging, the crush to the skull is an accident perpretated by a much stronger adult to a 40 pound child whose hands looked like the size of a toddler. A man was just arrested for holding his newborn and smashing her head against the sink. So in the history of crime, I would say parents have come close and have done worse if it is possible. Give me some proof and I will agree. You are suppositioning down the line, and imo, with no good evidence. You have a Lou Smit theory that has been taken into account exhaustively and it does not work.

It does not work BlueCrab. These are abrasions as quoted by Meyer in his autopsy report. Lou Smit as I have posted this is the closest thing they have to a stun gun. So please do not quote Meyer to me from Perfect Murder. We have been through that. It is not working. A stun gun was not used that night. It was rage and a cover up and someone tried desperately to wake her.

[santos1014]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. No parents in the history of crime have ever come close to doing that to one of their children.

BlueCrab


__________________________________________________ _____________

I am sorry to say, but parents over the course of history, have done worse to their children. From Jeffery McDonald, to Darlie Routier, to the woman in Tx, that cut off her infant daughter's arms, to the woman that is accused of putting her baby in the microwave. There is even a case of parents that killed their baby and then let the dogs eat the body to cover up all evidence and said she was kidnapped.
Sad, but true, parents have, and will continue to ravage their innocent children.

[BlueCrab]

Again, as I have posted before and you read it, I do NOT believe a stun gun was used.



Solace,

That's fine. Believe whatever you want to believe. I'll go with the forensic experts who say the marks on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries.

BlueCrab

[Ames]

IMO the Ramseys owned a stun gun. Why else would an INSTRUCTIONAL video tape on stun guns, IN ENGLISH, NOT SPANISH, be found in the house? Spy World in Miami, where it was likely purchased and carried out of the store by John and Patsy in 1995, sold Taser brand hand-held stun guns, but would not have given the Ramseys a free instructional video tape unless the Ramseys had purchased a stun gun. The store more appropriately would have given the Ramseys a brochure.

Moreover, John Ramsey never admitted that the stun gun instructional tape was in Spanish; he only admitted that a video catalog from Spy World arrived in the mail "later", and the catalog was in Spanish.

The stun gun is missing along with a lot of other crime scene evidence, such as the roll of black duct tape, the rest of the white nylon cord, a pair of size 6 panties, the tip of the wooden paint brush handle, the wipe-down cloth, the nine notebook pages, Burke's Hi-Tec hiking boots, the red ink pen, and the murder weapon. The missing crime scene evidence strongly suggests there was a fifth person in the house that night who was there at the invitation of a Ramsey and who took as much incriminating evidence with him as the perps could think of -- including the stun gun.

BlueCrab
I do not believe that the marks were caused by a stun gun...my question is though, does it really matter if the Ramsey had an intruction video or book, written in Spanish....how hard could it be to figure out how to use the thing...don't you just put it against someone skin and press a button? I wouldn't think that anyone would need a manual or video to teach them THAT.

[coloradokares]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. No parents in the history of crime have ever come close to doing that to one of their children.

BlueCrab


__________________________________________________ _____________

I am sorry to say, but parents over the course of history, have done worse to their children. From Jeffery McDonald, to Darlie Routier, to the woman in Tx, that cut off her infant daughter's arms, to the woman that is accused of putting her baby in the microwave. There is even a case of parents that killed their baby and then let the dogs eat the body to cover up all evidence and said she was kidnapped.
Sad, but true, parents have, and will continue to ravage their innocent children.
this morings news out of Pennsylvania was about the little toddler that had been found presumed frozen to death about a 10 minute walk from the home. The father now has told the police the little girl got up and did not want to go to bed. He struck her so hard that she lost conciousness. He then wrapped her up in a blanket. Put her in a wooded area about 10 minutes from the house where she was found 2 days later Frozen to death after having been reported missing.....

As I read this I thought. Forgive me .... he should have wrote a three page ransom note....Maybe he'd of gotten away with it and 10 years from now some caring people would be on forums debating had it been him his wife or some small foreign faction. I don't mean to be glib. Or in any way make light of this poor precious childs death. Or JonBenet's. My only point is YES Parents Mothers and Fathers both kill their children. Apprarently if you read the article you'll see this toddler had the habit of getting up in the night. Who knows if this father in a moment half asleep and tired beyond belief just snapped?

I read this on the US Associated Press it was a story breaking 2 hours ago. Niya Page was the little toddlers name. William Lorenzo Page the fathers. Yes in the history of crime it DOES happen . It should NEVER happen but it does.

[santos1014]

this morings news out of Pennsylvania was about the little toddler that had been found presumed frozen to death about a 10 minute walk from the home. The father now has told the police the little girl got up and did not want to go to bed. He struck her so hard that she lost conciousness. He then wrapped her up in a blanket. Put her in a wooded area about 10 minutes from the house where she was found 2 days later Frozen to death after having been reported missing.....

As I read this I thought. Forgive me .... he should have wrote a three page ransom note....Maybe he'd of gotten away with it and 10 years from now some caring people would be on forums debating had it been him his wife or some small foreign faction. I don't mean to be glib. Or in any way make light of this poor precious childs death. Or JonBenet's. My only point is YES Parents Mothers and Fathers both kill their children. Apprarently if you read the article you'll see this toddler had the habit of getting up in the night. Who knows if this father in a moment half asleep and tired beyond belief just snapped?

I read this on the US Associated Press it was a story breaking 2 hours ago. Niya Page was the little toddlers name. William Lorenzo Page the fathers. Yes in the history of crime it DOES happen . It should NEVER happen but it does.
Filicide. It happens and will continue to happen.
This is another sad case. CK, I know you aren't trying to be glib, but you made a valid point.
Makes my heart heavy.

[coloradokares]

Filicide. It happens and will continue to happen.
This is another sad case. CK, I know you aren't trying to be glib, but you made a valid point.
Makes my heart heavy.
Took me 15 minutes to compose myself enough to even post. Poor little baby first she is struck in the head with such blunt force she is knocked unconcious then left in the dead of winter to freeze to death. When I think of it ... I get physically ill.

[santos1014]

Took me 15 minutes to compose myself enough to even post. Poor little baby first she is struck in the head with such blunt force she is knocked unconcious then left in the dead of winter to freeze to death. When I think of it ... I get physically ill.
I feel the same way. Heaven has another angel.

[BlueCrab]

My only point is YES Parents Mothers and Fathers both kill their children.


coloradokares,

... and, sadly, siblings kill siblings.

BlueCrab

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

... and, sadly, siblings kill siblings.

BlueCrab
I won't deny that siblings sometimes kill siblings. However it also cannot be denied that sadly parents kill their children. Sometimes intentionally. Sometimes in a moment of split second rage or overwhelming tiredness or whatever. I have considered, mostly knowing the Colorado law regarding age limitation regarding minors, could Burke have been responsible. I also am aware that Burke had struck his sister before accidentaly I believe. However I think all the other factors must be considered as well. Also Blue Crab if that were the case and I know what other child at the time you refer to. Would they be as apparently well adjusted if that had been the case? However you have the absolute right to believe what you believe. As the rest of us.

[Camper]

Just jumping in here, I have NOT read this entire thread, however have been here since 1997, through all of the WS crashes and conversations about stun guns etc.

So here is some information for new people to check out.

The Windows Media Player video I mention in the info below, is a FULL SCREEN video shows real people having a taser used on them. WORTH the time to load and look, very clear and precise video. I do think this would explain the marks on JonBenets back. PLUS IF a video accompanies the purchase of a taser, it most likely shows it being used on the victims back.

We hassled over the marks as possibly being from 'the' suitcase in the basement for months upon months. But, hmmm.

Read about Tazers
http://www.taser.com/about/index.htm

Here is the taser link that you can watch the taser being used on real people: http://www.taser.com/about/index.htm
You will watch on Windows Media Player, full screen picture very clear.

Quoted from the link above: "Our management and employees are committed to making the most effective, safest non-lethal defense systems possible. As a measure of this commitment, most employees and all of senior management have taken voluntary hits with our various TASER devices. Click here to view a video of Chief Executive Officer Rick Smith, President Tom Smith, Chief Financial Officer Dan Behrendt, and Chief Operating Officer Kathleen Hanrahan taking direct hits from
TASER"--

Please note the LONG wires dangling because the ENTIRE distance a taser can fire was not the distance used in the video. AFTER the taser has
been fired, it appears that the two wire taser lines stay attached to the victim, and would have to be removed. OR they may automatically release after the shooter releases the trigger, I don't know that either. Someone can correct me on that. but I am going to ask my son who is an officer with police department, he was used as a guinea pig such as the people in the video here. My son was offered to either take a hit, or not it was his option to further educate him on 'what' happens when you use a taser, and how it affects you. He is no slacker and he chose the hit.

A taser could produce the random locations on JonBenets body, two taser wires shooting from the taser 'toward' the victim. IMOP one of those lines could entirely miss a small child, leaving only one visible injury.


Read about Stun guns
http://www.nationaldefenders.com/stun-guns.htm

A stun gun must be pressed to the body.

Bet Smit did not use a tazer on his pig, FROM A DISTANCE both tazers might not have connected to the pig.

.

[Ames]

this morings news out of Pennsylvania was about the little toddler that had been found presumed frozen to death about a 10 minute walk from the home. The father now has told the police the little girl got up and did not want to go to bed. He struck her so hard that she lost conciousness. He then wrapped her up in a blanket. Put her in a wooded area about 10 minutes from the house where she was found 2 days later Frozen to death after having been reported missing.....

As I read this I thought. Forgive me .... he should have wrote a three page ransom note....Maybe he'd of gotten away with it and 10 years from now some caring people would be on forums debating had it been him his wife or some small foreign faction. I don't mean to be glib. Or in any way make light of this poor precious childs death. Or JonBenet's. My only point is YES Parents Mothers and Fathers both kill their children. Apprarently if you read the article you'll see this toddler had the habit of getting up in the night. Who knows if this father in a moment half asleep and tired beyond belief just snapped?

I read this on the US Associated Press it was a story breaking 2 hours ago. Niya Page was the little toddlers name. William Lorenzo Page the fathers. Yes in the history of crime it DOES happen . It should NEVER happen but it does.

AWWW...this is SOOO sad. I have had my good cry for the day.....poor baby.
Someone should whack her dad on the head, and leave him outside to freeze to death....an eye for an eye....a tooth for a tooth.

[Ames]

coloradokares,

... and, sadly, siblings kill siblings.

BlueCrab
Siblings killing siblings is not as common, though. I don't for one second suspect that Burke had a thing to do with the murder of his little sister...he was only NINE years old. If he had of been involved, he wouldn't have went to jail....because he was TOO young....and I am sure that his parents would have known that, unless they were just stupid....(wait a minute....HOLD that thought). I don't believe that they would have carried out that elaborate coverup...if Burke had of done it. Why would they have covered for him, if they knew that he was too young for jail?

[Ames]

Check out these recent photos of Burke, posted on FFJ. (Hope its okay for me to post this link). After viewing this link, click on the next page of the thread..and theres more photos.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7774

[Jayelles]

For the record - Bluecrabs' "expert" whom he places so much faith in is one Michael Doberson who famously FAILED to identify stungun marks on Gerald Boggs.

[Solace]

For the record - Bluecrabs' "expert" whom he places so much faith in is one Michael Doberson who famously FAILED to identify stungun marks on Gerald Boggs.
Interesting.

[Ames]

For the record - Bluecrabs' "expert" whom he places so much faith in is one Michael Doberson who famously FAILED to identify stungun marks on Gerald Boggs.
Only confirms what I already knew....a stun gun was NOT used. IMO

[Solace]

Only confirms what I already knew....a stun gun was NOT used. IMO
I concur.:D

[BlueCrab]

For the record - Bluecrabs' "expert" whom he places so much faith in is one Michael Doberson who famously FAILED to identify stungun marks on Gerald Boggs.


Jayelles,

Arapahoe County forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Doberson was credited with solving the 1993 Gerald Boggs murder by identifying stun gun injuries on the victim after the corpse had been dug up and examined 8 months after being buried.

BlueCrab

[Ames]

Jayelles,

Arapahoe County forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Doberson was credited with solving the 1993 Gerald Boggs murder by identifying stun gun injuries on the victim after the corpse had been dug up and examined 8 months after being buried.

BlueCrab
I would have thought that the corpse would have been "ashes to ashes...dust to dust"...by then. Or if not....at least a bunch of bones.

[BlueCrab]

I would have thought that the corpse would have been "ashes to ashes...dust to dust"...by then. Or if not....at least a bunch of bones.

Ames,

The average corpse, buried under average soil conditions, takes about 5 years to totally putrify if a child and about 10 years to totally putrify if an adult.

BlueCrab

[icedtea4me]

I think the injuries on JonBenet's face that night came from Patsy's fingernail and thumbnail. She was face-to-face with JonBenet with the right side of JonBenet's jaw in her left hand, the edge of her thumbnail near the chin and her index nail just below the ear.


-Tea

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

Arapahoe County forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Doberson was credited with solving the 1993 Gerald Boggs murder by identifying stun gun injuries on the victim after the corpse had been dug up and examined 8 months after being buried.

BlueCrab
Doberson also performed the first autopsy and FAILED to recognise them when they were right in front of him. That is a FACT which stungun theorists would prefer wasn't so. When jameson was asked outright what was the name of the pathologist who FAILED to identify Bogg's stun-gun injuries in his original autopsy, she fluffed around saying she didn't have that name to hand and ....ooh err....she'd have to look it up.... and then ....drat....her notes were in storage (conveniently preventing her from doing so). She knew fine and well it was Doberson all along :-)

Doberson is NOT an expert on stunguns. He didn't recognise a stungun injury when it was staring him in the face!

[Solace]

Doberson also performed the first autopsy and FAILED to recognise them when they were right in front of him. That is a FACT which stungun theorists would prefer wasn't so. When jameson was asked outright what was the name of the pathologist who FAILED to identify Bogg's stun-gun injuries in his original autopsy, she fluffed around saying she didn't have that name to hand and ....ooh err....she'd have to look it up.... and then ....drat....her notes were in storage (conveniently preventing her from doing so). She knew fine and well it was Doberson all along :-)

Doberson is NOT an expert on stunguns. He didn't recognise a stungun injury when it was staring him in the face!
My Lawd!

[Jayelles]

A few years ago, I did a careful experiment with images of JonBenet's "stungun" marks and Doberson's pig experiment.

Using the rulers on the images, I made them life size - increasing the images by fractions of a milimetre until they perfectly aligned with a metal ruler I had purchased. Then I printed the images out on acetate and overlaid them.

It was an eery feeling to look at the image of Jonbenet and know that this was life size, but the bottom line is that the marks do NOT match up. The marks on JonBenet are much smaller and closer together. You only realise this when you do scale them to life size. They are little more than two tiny pin pricks compared to the pig marks which are rectangular in shape and which match the prongs on the stungun to perfection.

Over the years I have suggested several times to Bluecrab to conduct the same experiment but he prefers to simply repeat his claim that they are a match. He would definitely not say that if he did the experiment.

[Solace]

A few years ago, I did a careful experiment with images of JonBenet's "stungun" marks and Doberson's pig experiment.

Using the rulers on the images, I made them life size - increasing the images by fractions of a milimetre until they perfectly aligned with a metal ruler I had purchased. Then I printed the images out on acetate and overlaid them.

It was an eery feeling to look at the image of Jonbenet and know that this was life size, but the bottom line is that the marks do NOT match up. The marks on JonBenet are much smaller and closer together. You only realise this when you do scale them to life size. They are little more than two tiny pin pricks compared to the pig marks which are rectangular in shape and which match the prongs on the stungun to perfection.

Over the years I have suggested several times to Bluecrab to conduct the same experiment but he prefers to simply repeat his claim that they are a match. He would definitely not say that if he did the experiment.
This is shocking. BlueCrab, why won't you conduct the experiment. And also, read up on Dr. Gelb and those pesky poly exams that he swears by. Thank you so much.

[BlueCrab]

Doberson also performed the first autopsy and FAILED to recognise them when they were right in front of him. That is a FACT which stungun theorists would prefer wasn't so.

Doberson is NOT an expert on stunguns. He didn't recognise a stungun injury when it was staring him in the face!


Jayelles,

Would you please source your assertion that Doberson performed the first autopsy on Boggs. Doberson is the Arapahoe County coroner, just outside of Denver. Boggs was murdered in Steamboat Springs, over 150 miles NW of Denver. Thanks.

BlueCrab

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

Would you please source your assertion that Doberson performed the first autopsy on Boggs. Certainly - the source is Robert Stratbucker's deposition:-

6 Q. You were familiar with the Boggs
7 autopsy report before you testified in that
8 case; weren't you?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. That was done by Dr. Michael
11 Doberson; wasn't it, sir?
12 A. The autopsy report?
13 Q. Yes, sir.
Regarding your other point:-

Doberson is the Arapahoe County coroner, just outside of Denver. Boggs was murdered in Steamboat Springs, over 150 miles NW of Denver. Thanks.

BlueCrabAnd according to Doberson himself, Boggs was an Arapahoe County case:-

"Doberson said Boulder detectives visited him April 25 to ask about a 2-year-old Arapahoe County case in which the coroner exhumed the body of Gerald Boggs eight months after burial and found evidence of electrical shock in the man's skin tissue."
Edited to Add:-
This is another excerpt from Stratbucker's deposition - Lin Wood is referring here to Bogg's first autopsy:-

19 Q. All right. Were you aware that in
20 the Boggs autopsy report, Dr. Doberson had
21 initially described those two marks that you
22 have just circled as abrasions?
http://www.acandyrose.com/20020530stratbuckerdepo.txt

[Solace]

Certainly - the source is Robert Stratbucker's deposition:-


Regarding your other point:-

And according to Doberson himself, Boggs was an Arapahoe County case:-
Jayelles: You take my breath away.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles: You take my breath away.
Pleasure :-)

[Jayelles]

Michael Dobersen in 2001:-



``The bottom line is, I can't absolutely positively say it was a stun gun,'' Dr. Michael Dobersen said. ``But with the information I have, and everything I've seen, it's the best explanation.''


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-73936604.html

[Jayelles]

Let's not also forget that Lou Smit worked with Michael Dobersen on the pig experiments and that AFTER this, Lou Smit went on TV and told the nation about the results of the experiment including the "fact" that the blue line on JonBenet's skin was caused by the blue arc of electricity jumping between the stungun prongs!!!! :D

Was that Dr Dobersen's educated opinion too? (They did collaborate after all) :D :D

Of course, real experts like Robert Stratbucker were quick to dismiss this as nonsense. More than a few non-experts were equally quick to realise that it was nonsense too!




Nebraska Dr. Robert Stratbucker, who has conducted several experiments on stun guns and is considered a courtroom expert, said he takes "considerable issue" with Smit's stun gun theory.

Stratbucker said it is "pure nonsense" that the stun gun would leave a blue mark in between red marks on the skin as Smit claimed. "I have not seen ever, ever any blue marks, and I don't know what the cause of any blue mark could be," he said.


http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/02lrams.html

[Solace]

Let's not also forget that Lou Smit worked with Michael Dobersen on the pig experiments and that AFTER this, Lou Smit went on TV and told the nation about the results of the experiment including the "fact" that the blue line on JonBenet's skin was caused by the blue arc of electricity jumping between the stungun prongs!!!! :D

Was that Dr Dobersen's educated opinion too? (They did collaborate after all) :D :D

Of course, real experts like Robert Stratbucker were quick to dismiss this as nonsense. More than a few non-experts were equally quick to realise that it was nonsense too!


http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/02lrams.html

Maybe it is his habit to take hallucinogenics before he conducts experiments..

[Jayelles]

And from the wonderful Why_Nut:-


Dobersen was, in fact, the man who performed the initial autopsy, and as you can see from this 1995 newspaper article, it was clear that he would have never identified the Boggs marks as coming from a stun gun if police had not come to him and essentially told him that it would help them tremendously if he signed off on the marks as coming from a stun gun, since they had no evidence connecting their desired perp to the crime otherwise.

February 23, 1995

HEADLINE: Slay trial centers on stun gun

BYLINE: Ellen Miller, Special to The Denver Post

HOT SULPHUR SPRINGS - Steamboat Springs businessman Gerald Boggs bled to death from one of three gunshot wounds he suffered and his skull had been fractured by a blow from a shovel, but it was a non-lethal injury near his right ear that occupied attorneys the most yesterday in the murder trial of Jill Coit and Michael Backus.

The injury to Boggs' face initially was labeled an abrasion and given little attention during an autopsy, Dr. Michael Dobersen, the forensic pathologist who conducted it, testified yesterday.

But after authorities found a stun gun in a vehicle registered to Coit, they asked Dobersen to research whether Boggs' injury may have been caused by one.

Dobersen said his initial literature search led him to believe it was possible, so Boggs' body was exhumed about 10 months after his burial in late October 1993 for more examination.

Those tests, and others conducted with a stun gun on live but anesthesized pigs because their skin resembles that of humans, led Dobersen to conclude that Boggs had been burned by a stun gun.

Investigators used two stun guns in the tests, the one found in Coit's vehicle
and a manufacturer's model of the device. The stun gun angle is important to prosecutors because they did not find the .22-caliber firearm used to shoot Boggs, nor did they find any footprints, fibers or fingerprints in his house to match either of the defendants.

The stun gun, they contend, is physical evidence connecting Coit and Backus to the killing.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/printthread.php?t=5789&page=3&pp=12

[BlueCrab]

Jayelles,

Thank you for finding that information. Apparently Doberson was the medical examiner for several other counties in addition to Arapahoe County.

I don't know what the big deal is about in regard to Doberson misdiagnosing the stun gun injuries, calling them abrasions, during the first autopsy of Gerald Boggs. John Meyer did exactly the same thing a couple of years later when he autopsied JonBenet. At least Doberson immediately corrected himself and exhumed the body when he learned about the existence of a stun gun.

BlueCrab

[coloradokares]

Jayelles,

Thank you for finding that information. Apparently Doberson was the medical examiner for several other counties in addition to Arapahoe County.

I don't know what the big deal is about in regard to Doberson misdiagnosing the stun gun injuries, calling them abrasions, during the first autopsy of Gerald Boggs. John Meyer did exactly the same thing a couple of years later when he autopsied JonBenet. At least Doberson immediately corrected himself and exhumed the body when he learned about the existence of a stun gun.

BlueCrab
You really are a determined one aren't ya? LOL

[Credence]

Jayelles,

Thank you for finding that information. Apparently Doberson was the medical examiner for several other counties in addition to Arapahoe County.

I don't know what the big deal is about in regard to Doberson misdiagnosing the stun gun injuries, calling them abrasions, during the first autopsy of Gerald Boggs. John Meyer did exactly the same thing a couple of years later when he autopsied JonBenet. At least Doberson immediately corrected himself and exhumed the body when he learned about the existence of a stun gun.

BlueCrabStun gun marks are referred to as abrasions and not only in death. An abrasion is injury of superficial skin so why would Meyer's description be a misdiagnosis. Seems to be that the term "abrasion" is used as a generic term for superficial skin injury.

Use of a TASER device in drive (or touch) stun mode can cause marks, friction abrasions, and/or scarring that may be permanent depending on individual susceptibilities or circumstances surrounding TASER device use and exposure.

http://www.rkdefense.com/proddetail.php?prod=44002

A review of the literature yields interesting findings. A 1987 survey by Ordog et al. and reported in the Annals of Emergency Medicine looked at 218 Taser-related injuries. Most were related to the suspect falling after being shocked. These abrasions, contusions and lacerations were treated in the usual fashion with no unusual sequelae.

http://www.ncchc.org/pubs/CC/tasers.html

Upon his arrival in the United States, petitioner was immediately
transferred to Marion Penitentiary. By that time, approximately 24
hours had passed since his apprehension. A physician examined
petitioner and found abrasions on his head, face, scalp, neck, arms,
feet, and penis, as well as blistering on his back. According to the
physician, those injuries could have been caused by a stun gun. Pet.
App. A3.

http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/1990/sg900934.txt

In the 978 times a Phoenix officer has used a Taser, they have never once injured anyone more severely than an abrasion, Force said. He called the weapons "humane" and "the best, most effective tool" police have to capture suspects.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/2004/2004_07_28.taser28.shtml

Tiny url in case link above does not work:

http://tinyurl.com/yf97os

About 1/3 of US police agencies use tasers.

Injuries caused:

Injuries in 10,485 incidents reporting injury rates:
None: 91%
Minor: 8%
(Puncture wounds from probes, abrasions)
Moderate: 0.3%
(Abrasions, skinned knee, carpet burn, testicle shot, penis shot, cut to mouth, cuts from falling onto glass)
Severe: 0.034%

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=427020