Big Bugaboo

[Jayelles]

The one piece of forensic evidence which cannot be easily explained away is the pineapple. Its very existence in her digestive system raised questions which were tricky enough for Lou Smit to refer to the pineapple as the big "bugaboo".

Food digestion times vary according to different factors, but taking account of these factors, we know that JonBenet consumed the pineapple between 2-5 hours prior to her death. The problem with this is that the Ramseys left their home between 4-5pm and returned 9/9.30-ish (they could not be more specific about these times when they were finally interviewed some 4 months after the murder).

Lab tests proved that the pineapple was fresh and not canned.

The Whites denied serving pineapple at their buffet and indeed neither Ramsey recalled pineapple being served at the Whites'.



20 TRIP DEMUTH: The Whites have told us that
21 they did not serve her pineapple.
However, a bowl of fresh pineapple was found lying on the Ramsey kitchen counter.

JonBenet was known to be very fond of pineapple.

The bugaboo is that if Jonbenet ate a piece of pineapple BEFORE going to the Whites', then her time of death was no later than 10pm - when John Ramsey and Burke were still up. If OTOH, she ate it on returning home from the Whites, then that placed her time of death between 11.30pm - 2.30am. HOWEVER, it means that she must have been awake on returning home from the Whites' and not asleep as her parents claim.

Either way, the very existence of the pineapple suggests that the Ramseys have not been completely honest in their version of events - i.e. the big bugaboo.

Ramsey supporters will try to claim that the pineapple is not a fact - that it was mistletoe or that Dr Meyer only suggested that it was pinapple because Linda Arndt suggested it (knowing that there had been a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter). However, we know from both Steve Thomas and Lou Smit that it was pineapple.



13 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was

14 pineapple?

15 LOU SMIT: Yes.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No question?

17 LOU SMIT: No question. No

18 question. So that's always been the big

19 bugaboo.
snip



11 LOU SMIT: But still it's a

12 fact that it's in there. There is nothing

13 that we can do to change that particular

14 fact.
snip



8 LOU SMIT: You see that that

9 pineapple is a clue, I mean that's in the

10 case.
Another odd thing is that over the course of the 3 days that the 1998 interviews took place, the investigators interviewing John Ramsey kept asking him if he had discussed the pineapple with Patsy overnight (i.e. after the previous day's interviews). Similarly, the investigators interviewing Patsy asked her if she and John had discussed the pineapple overnight.

Now - Lou Smit really emphasised the importance of the pinepple to John - that they had to get to the bottom of when she had eaten it. John said he would have to ask Patsy. Yet when Patsy was asked whether she and John had discussed the pineapple overnight, her response was this:-



1 TOM HANEY: Did you over the last couple of

2 nights discuss the bowl of pineapple with John?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't recall. I think he

4 mentioned seeing a bowl of pineapple, but we

5 didn't, I didn't discuss it, no.

6 TOM HANEY: Okay. So that would have been

7 about the extent of it, he says --

8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

9 TOM HANEY: Something about, asked about a

10 bowl of pineapple?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: Pineapple, right, yeah.

12 TOM HANEY: At that time did that jog your

13 recollection at all?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I, I recall that I had heard

15 somewhere or somebody told me that pineapple was

16 in her stomach.
I find this puzzling. Here is a crucial piece of evidence which cannot be explained. A big bugaboo. Yet even during a three day interview session with investigators, the Ramseys fail to see it significant enough to discuss with each other.

That is another bugaboo.

[Jayelles]

The above quotes came from the Ramseys' 1998 interviews which can be found at www.acandyrose.com (http://www.acandyrose.com/)

[Nuisanceposter]

One thing I've noticed as I've read through interviews with the Rs - there seems to a lot of important things they claim not to have discussed with each other. In my mind, either J&P are rather distant with each other and remain on a "chat" level, or they're lying about talking about important things.

Considering how important so many things in this case are in regards to them making sure they're telling the same stories, I think they're lying about not talking.

I also think JonBenet was awake after the family arrived home and that's when she ate the pineapple. Meyer noted soft green matter in JB's large intestine, which could very well have been the cracked crab served at the White's. If it is, then she had to have eaten the pineapple afterwards, as it was in her small intestine.

Didn't Lou Smit say he thought the intruder brought in the pineapple, and speculated that it had been in a tupperware container he saw in pictures of JonBenet's bedroom? Nedra Paugh, according to Steve Thomas's book, said JonBenet did not like being awakened and never would have sat and eaten pineapple with someone she didn't know. Based on Nedra's comments, Smit's theory seems to be flawed.

Not only that, but it also says in ST's book that the pineapple in JonBenet's intestine was poorly chewed (also in the autopsy report) and that it was found to be consistent down to the rind with what was in the bowl on the breakfast table.

My guess is that JonBenet was busy having fun at the White's party, did not eat very much, and came home to find herself hungry and asked for a snack, which she was given. I see this exact behavior in my own child. My question is - if she was awake and was served the pineapple, why did the Rs feel the need to lie about it? What are they hiding?

[UKGuy]

The one piece of forensic evidence which cannot be easily explained away is the pineapple. Its very existence in her digestive system raised questions which were tricky enough for Lou Smit to refer to the pineapple as the big "bugaboo".

Food digestion times vary according to different factors, but taking account of these factors, we know that JonBenet consumed the pineapple between 2-5 hours prior to her death. The problem with this is that the Ramseys left their home between 4-5pm and returned 9/9.30-ish (they could not be more specific about these times when they were finally interviewed some 4 months after the murder).

Lab tests proved that the pineapple was fresh and not canned.

The Whites denied serving pineapple at their buffet and indeed neither Ramsey recalled pineapple being served at the Whites'.


However, a bowl of fresh pineapple was found lying on the Ramsey kitchen counter.

JonBenet was known to be very fond of pineapple.

The bugaboo is that if Jonbenet ate a piece of pineapple BEFORE going to the Whites', then her time of death was no later than 10pm - when John Ramsey and Burke were still up. If OTOH, she ate it on returning home from the Whites, then that placed her time of death between 11.30pm - 2.30am. HOWEVER, it means that she must have been awake on returning home from the Whites' and not asleep as her parents claim.

Either way, the very existence of the pineapple suggests that the Ramseys have not been completely honest in their version of events - i.e. the big bugaboo.

Ramsey supporters will try to claim that the pineapple is not a fact - that it was mistletoe or that Dr Meyer only suggested that it was pinapple because Linda Arndt suggested it (knowing that there had been a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter). However, we know from both Steve Thomas and Lou Smit that it was pineapple.


snip


snip


Another odd thing is that over the course of the 3 days that the 1998 interviews took place, the investigators interviewing John Ramsey kept asking him if he had discussed the pineapple with Patsy overnight (i.e. after the previous day's interviews). Similarly, the investigators interviewing Patsy asked her if she and John had discussed the pineapple overnight.

Now - Lou Smit really emphasised the importance of the pinepple to John - that they had to get to the bottom of when she had eaten it. John said he would have to ask Patsy. Yet when Patsy was asked whether she and John had discussed the pineapple overnight, her response was this:-


I find this puzzling. Here is a crucial piece of evidence which cannot be explained. A big bugaboo. Yet even during a three day interview session with investigators, the Ramseys fail to see it significant enough to discuss with each other.

That is another bugaboo.

Jayelles,

Well we dont know what was discussed, only what they contend was not.

Also until the smoke had cleared their legal advice would be not to quote from each other, in case it was used either in court or in a follow up interview, with the intention of turning one spouse against the other!

There is enough forensic evidence linked to the pineapple snack e.g. situation, circumstance, fingerprints etc to very strongly deduce that the pineapple was consumed after they arrived back from the White's. The confirming feature is as Nuisanceposter states that the sequence of ingesting suggests that the pineapple was consumed last due to its position in her digestive system?

Also if your attending the White's party why do you need to eat anything in advance?

The pineapple renders the Ramsey's version of events extremely dubious, they say she was placed sleeping into bed. The pineapple suggests JonBenet was awake, walked to the kitchen and enjoyed a snack of pineapple.

Despite Patsy's fingerprints being on the bowl, she denies any knowledge of either the pineapple and I believe the bowl, why, because it does not fit in with their version of events!

Applying occam and kiss principles: On returning from the White's Patsy fixed a pineapple snack for JonBenet, and attended to whatever domestic matters, if any, she thought were relevant.

That is prior to JonBenet's death the scene was that of a typical domestic snacking session?


The reason why this is so important is in estimating JonBenet's Time Of Death which has relevance for whichever theory you construct.

postscript: The pineapple must have told Lou Smit that the Ramsey version of events was inconsistent, yet he ploughed on with unrealistic explanations and bizarre intruder theories!




.

[cami]

My guess is that JonBenet was busy having fun at the White's party, did not eat very much, and came home to find herself hungry and asked for a snack, which she was given. I see this exact behavior in my own child. My question is - if she was awake and was served the pineapple, why did the Rs feel the need to lie about it? What are they hiding?

This is the first fact of this case (this lie) that turned me from innocent to maybe they're involved. She had pineapple...why lie about it. It was so easy to tell the truth on this so yes there must be something they were trying to hide by lying.

[Rhett]

Could the pineapple have been left in the bowl on the table from earlier in the day? Maybe JonBenet' was asleep when she came home from the White's. Maybe she woke up feeling hungry because she had not eaten much at the party, saw the pineapple that was left out and ate it.

[Jayelles]

Could the pineapple have been left in the bowl on the table from earlier in the day? Maybe JonBenet' was asleep when she came home from the White's. Maybe she woke up feeling hungry because she had not eaten much at the party, saw the pineapple that was left out and ate it.
There is no doubt about it - the pineapple is a big mystery and one which cannot be satisfactorily explained by the Ramseys' explanation of events.

Patsy denied knowledge of the fresh pineapple. She said she would not do that set up - pineapple in a bowl with a large spoon. She insisted that it looked weird. John said the large spoon didn't look right in the bowl - the implication was that if a Ramsey had prepared the snack, then they would have placed a smaller spoon in the bowl. I'm afraid I think this stinks.

As a mother of three and a happy and regular hostess to family and friends, I would say that big spoons are for serving and smaller spoons are for eating.

The pineapple on the Ramsey counter was FRESH pineapple - not canned. *someone* prepared that pineapple and put it in a bowl with a large serving spoon which would suggest that it was put out for more than one person to share - at a mealtime perhap? Now here's the thing - the Ramseys had pancakes for breakfast but "didn't recall" what they had for lunch - only that they would have eaten something:-


TT: Okay. Did you have lunch that day?

PR: I’m sure we did.

TT: Okay. Do you have any idea about, what did you have for lunch.

PR I don’t remember.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm
(sorry about the text size, I can't seem to make it smaller!)

So here we have Patsy not being able to recall what they had for lunch - yet distancing herself in every respect from a bowl of pineapple which is would appear to be VERY significant to the investigators.

That makes me uncomfortable. I think the most simple explanation is that the Ramseys lied about JonBenet being asleep on their return from the Whites. I think they took the decision to claim that Jonbenet was asleep so that it would cut out an entire line of questioning and that it would have worked - if it hadn't been for the darned pineapple which I think they didn't know she had eaten. So that left a lie to answer to and the only way they could explain it was to deny all knowledge of the bowl of pineapple - which even had Patsy and Burke's fingerprints on it!


The Ramseys were and are still suspects in this murder case - if they are innicent then they have EVERYTHING to gain from telling the truth about the evidence. It is abundantly clear from their police interviews that the pineapple is important - both sets of investigators made that clear and harped on and on about the pineapple. WHy oh why would the Ramseys NOT discuss it with each other during the evenings. All this vagueness over such an important thing is bizarre and indicates to me that there is deception here. Why would two people who genuinely wanted to find this intruder barely discuss something which could be really crucial to finding him (and clearing them)?

I think they had the pineapple for lunch on Christmas Day, and I think JonBenet was awake when she got home from the Whites' - and ate a piece of pineapple without her parents' knowledge.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

Well we dont know what was discussed, only what they contend was not.
Yes that is true. I think the Ramseys get vague about things they don't really want to discuss.

Also until the smoke had cleared their legal advice would be not to quote from each other, in case it was used either in court or in a follow up interview, with the intention of turning one spouse against the other!
They both had legal representaiton in those interviews - couldn't they just decline to answer those questions on that basis?

There is enough forensic evidence linked to the pineapple snack e.g. situation, circumstance, fingerprints etc to very strongly deduce that the pineapple was consumed after they arrived back from the White's. The confirming feature is as Nuisanceposter states that the sequence of ingesting suggests that the pineapple was consumed last due to its position in her digestive system?

Also if your attending the White's party why do you need to eat anything in advance?

The pineapple renders the Ramsey's version of events extremely dubious, they say she was placed sleeping into bed. The pineapple suggests JonBenet was awake, walked to the kitchen and enjoyed a snack of pineapple.

Despite Patsy's fingerprints being on the bowl, she denies any knowledge of either the pineapple and I believe the bowl, why, because it does not fit in with their version of events!

Applying occam and kiss principles: On returning from the White's Patsy fixed a pineapple snack for JonBenet, and attended to whatever domestic matters, if any, she thought were relevant.

That is prior to JonBenet's death the scene was that of a typical domestic snacking session?


The reason why this is so important is in estimating JonBenet's Time Of Death which has relevance for whichever theory you construct.

postscript: The pineapple must have told Lou Smit that the Ramsey version of events was inconsistent, yet he ploughed on with unrealistic explanations and bizarre intruder theories!
The pineapple doesn't prove the Ramseys killed Jonbenet - just that they might have been lying about her being asleep when she got home. I think that is the most likely explanation, but I also think they lied because they felt they were "above" being investigated by police. By telling the police that Jonbenet fell asleep in the car and didn't waken up when she was lifted into bed - and then sticking to that story - they eliminated an entire line of questioning by police. I also think they lied about Burke being asleep in the morning for the same reasons ("just say you were asleep - then you don't need to answer hard questions" kind of thing).

We know John Ramsey lies. When he was asked about the altercation in Atlanta after the funeral, he denied there had been any altercation - yet in his own book DOI, he described the very same incident as an "alteration"! (DOI page 295)

[Jayelles]

Here are two examples of misinformation about the pineapple:-

Margoo posted this:-

We don't ACTUALLY KNOW whether or not it was pineapple since it was described by Dr. Meyer as "fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple."


(Oh yes we do...)

http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=1140&forum=DCForumID61

The second is that the stomach contents were discarded at the autopsy (eh?)

(Interestingly, the person who states this also brazenly complains that the case is full of "falsehoods that grew legs") :-

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID61/2512.html#27


I just wish the material had not been discarded during the autopsy.


Alas this is a falsehood! And it is important to stop it growing legs.....

The material was not discarded during autopsy. It was tested in a laboratory and found to be fresh pineapple.

From Steve Thomas' deposition:-

24 Q. The pineapple, we know the autopsy
25 statement about the findings. Were there any
417
1 tests performed beyond the autopsy on those
2 contents?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell me about that.
5 A. What I know about that is
6 Detective Weinheimer received that assignment
7 during the course of the investigation,
8 employed the help of I think a biological --
9 or a botanist or somebody of some expertise
10 at the University of Colorado, Boulder. The
11 name Dr. Bach jumps out at me, as well as
12 others, and he completed a series of reports
13 concerning the pineapple and I think to save
14 time one of those conclusions I think I put
15 in the book.
16 Q. About the rinds being identical?
17 A. That it was a fresh pineapple
18 consistent -- fresh pineapple with a rind.
19 Q. Rind being consistent -- oh, with
20 a rind but consistent with pineapple found in
21 the house or in the bowl?
22 A. Yeah, and let me clarify that,
23 pineapple consistent down to the rind with
24 pineapple found in the bowl in the kitchen.
25 Q. Consistent down to the rind. It
418
1 seems to me pineapple with rind is pineapple
2 with rind. Was there something unique about
3 this particular rind?
4 A. I think they were able to
5 determine -- well, in fact, I know that
6 fellow Officer Weinheimer disclosed to us that
7 they were able to characterize it as a fresh
8 pineapple rather than a canned pineapple.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I think the investigation lent
11 itself as far as, and Detective Weinheimer is
12 a capable investigator, as far as contacting
13 Dole Pineapple in Hawaii, et cetera.
14 Q. Do you know whether there were any
15 other reports on the pineapple, other than
16 the autopsy reports and Dr. Bach's reports?
17 A. Yeah, there was a series of
18 reports on Weinheimer's investigation.
19 Q. Do you know anybody else by name
20 that was involved in that, other than the Dr.
21 Bach? I mean, Dole didn't give you any
22 report, did they?
23 A. No, not that I'm aware of.
24 Sorry, the names escape me but there are
25 other reports with other planters, I guess,
419
1 pineapple, for lack of a better term,
2 experts.
3 Q. Any of those reports, anybody come
4 up with something that was inconclusive in
5 terms of findings?
6 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall the
7 content of the reports.

[UKGuy]

Yes that is true. I think the Ramseys get vague about things they don't really want to discuss.


They both had legal representaiton in those interviews - couldn't they just decline to answer those questions on that basis?


The pineapple doesn't prove the Ramseys killed Jonbenet - just that they might have been lying about her being asleep when she got home. I think that is the most likely explanation, but I also think they lied because they felt they were "above" being investigated by police. By telling the police that Jonbenet fell asleep in the car and didn't waken up when she was lifted into bed - and then sticking to that story - they eliminated an entire line of questioning by police. I also think they lied about Burke being asleep in the morning for the same reasons ("just say you were asleep - then you don't need to answer hard questions" kind of thing).

We know John Ramsey lies. When he was asked about the altercation in Atlanta after the funeral, he denied there had been any altercation - yet in his own book DOI, he described the very same incident as an "alteration"! (DOI page 295)


Jayelles,

They both had legal representaiton in those interviews - couldn't they just decline to answer those questions on that basis?

Possibly if they had ever been charged that would have been the legal response, but prior to this as you suggest they just got vague about any discussions they may or may not have had.


The pineapple doesn't prove the Ramseys killed Jonbenet - just that they might have been lying about her being asleep when she got home. I think that is the most likely explanation, but I also think they lied because they felt they were "above" being investigated by police. By telling the police that Jonbenet fell asleep in the car and didn't waken up when she was lifted into bed - and then sticking to that story - ...

...[b]they eliminated an entire line of questioning by police.[/i]

That is what I think too, also their attempt to fit their version of events to the forensic evidence demonstrates premeditation and planning, as does their hiring of legal representation hours into the day of the 26th.

Taken in conjunction with the obvious crime-scene staging, the pineapple snack is a fault-line in their version of events, and regardless of how above they feel about being investigated by police, other people may simply view it as an attempt at avoiding extremely damaging questions.

imo although The pineapple doesn't prove the Ramseys killed Jonbenet it and other forensic evidence demonstrates that they are linked to the staged crime-scene!



.

[Cypros]

If I remember right, the pineapple was partly digested. I am sure that I read somewhere that she had to have eaten the pineapple at least a couple of hours before her death. This debunks any theory that an intruder fed JB some pineapple before he killed her.

The intruder-feeds-JB-pineapple theory would require this timeline:
1) 9:30 - the Ramseys to arrive home from the party with a sleeping JB
2) sleeping JB is put to bed
3) parents and Burke go to bed
4) an intruder waits for the household to become quiet to be sure everyone is asleep and then sneaks upstairs to take JB from her bed
5) intruder feeds JB pineapple in the kitchen
6) intruder and JB spend a couple of hours together in the house without waking anybody
7) midnight(ish) -- screams heard from the direction of the Ramsey house = JB killed

Sorry. Not enough time for all of this to occur.

Yes, I agree that the pineapple is a BIG bugaboo for the Ramseys.

[Toltec]

Tom Haney asks Patsy if she had pineapple in the home the night of JB's murder..."Do you have either or both in stock at the house there, did you?"

Patsy's answer: "Usually I would buy those - I bought pineapple, it was fresh pineapple that had been peeled or whatever they do to it, and core it and cut it up a little bit, or some that had been fresh that was sealed there in the produce area."

Patsy does not give a YES or NO answer...

Haney asks: "Did you have bags or however it came?"

Patsy's answer: "I don't know. It usually went bad pretty quick, so it didn't - you know, I didn't keep it around laying around very long. You know what I mean?"

It is quite obvious that Patsy did not want to admit that she indeed had bought fresh pineapple, She describes what kind she would buy and how quickly it would go bad, and how quickly she would get rid of it....My beef with Haney is that he let this important part of the interrogation get away....I would have said DAMMIT...DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT HAVE PINEAPPLE IN YOUR HOME! A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER PATSY!

[Ames]

One thing I've noticed as I've read through interviews with the Rs - there seems to a lot of important things they claim not to have discussed with each other. In my mind, either J&P are rather distant with each other and remain on a "chat" level, or they're lying about talking about important things.

Considering how important so many things in this case are in regards to them making sure they're telling the same stories, I think they're lying about not talking.

I also think JonBenet was awake after the family arrived home and that's when she ate the pineapple. Meyer noted soft green matter in JB's large intestine, which could very well have been the cracked crab served at the White's. If it is, then she had to have eaten the pineapple afterwards, as it was in her small intestine.

Didn't Lou Smit say he thought the intruder brought in the pineapple, and speculated that it had been in a tupperware container he saw in pictures of JonBenet's bedroom? Nedra Paugh, according to Steve Thomas's book, said JonBenet did not like being awakened and never would have sat and eaten pineapple with someone she didn't know. Based on Nedra's comments, Smit's theory seems to be flawed.

Not only that, but it also says in ST's book that the pineapple in JonBenet's intestine was poorly chewed (also in the autopsy report) and that it was found to be consistent down to the rind with what was in the bowl on the breakfast table.

My guess is that JonBenet was busy having fun at the White's party, did not eat very much, and came home to find herself hungry and asked for a snack, which she was given. I see this exact behavior in my own child. My question is - if she was awake and was served the pineapple, why did the Rs feel the need to lie about it? What are they hiding?
My thought is because they needed to keep their story short and simple....Jonbenet was asleep when she arrived home from the White's....she was ASLEEP....she was ASLEEP.....ASLEEP....ASLEEP. Makes it alot easier to remember, and to keep their story consistant with each other. (Guess they didn't figure on Burke forgetting the story...and saying that she was awake, and even helped to carry in presents).

[T-Rex]

One thing I didn't get is that they never (as far as we know) ask about JB getting up and wandering during the night. Was she afraid of the dark? Would she ever go downstairs to get a snack on her own if everyone else was asleep?

[Ames]

One thing I didn't get is that they never (as far as we know) ask about JB getting up and wandering during the night. Was she afraid of the dark? Would she ever go downstairs to get a snack on her own if everyone else was asleep?
Yes, I believe that they asked John that question (other posters...please correct me if I am wrong)....and he said that she would NEVER go to the kitchen by herself at night, because she was too afraid to.

[philamena]

This is the first fact of this case (this lie) that turned me from innocent to maybe they're involved. She had pineapple...why lie about it. It was so easy to tell the truth on this so yes there must be something they were trying to hide by lying.Cami,
It's simple really. The Ramsey's, who I believe were the perps of JBR's murder, didn't want anyone to NOT believe that JonBenet went straight to bed after returning home from the White's. If Patsy admitted to giving JonBenet the pineapple, she'd blown her own cover.

[Ames]

Cami,
It's simple really. The Ramsey's, who I believe were the perps of JBR's murder, didn't want anyone to NOT believe that JonBenet went straight to bed after returning home from the White's. If Patsy admitted to giving JonBenet the pineapple, she'd blown her own cover.
Yep, they wanted to distance themselves from that darn, pesky, pineapple. This is the Ramsey's.....:liar:

[philamena]

....I would have said DAMMIT...DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT HAVE PINEAPPLE IN YOUR HOME! A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER PATSY!Darn right! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/clap.gif

[Jayelles]

Yes, I believe that they asked John that question (other posters...please correct me if I am wrong)....and he said that she would NEVER go to the kitchen by herself at night, because she was too afraid to.
Yes John was asked whether she'd get up and go downstairs for a sanck and he responded that he didn't think she would.

[Jayelles]

Cami,
It's simple really. The Ramsey's, who I believe were the perps of JBR's murder, didn't want anyone to NOT believe that JonBenet went straight to bed after returning home from the White's. If Patsy admitted to giving JonBenet the pineapple, she'd blown her own cover.
Ah, but see I don't think Patsy did give JonBenet the pineapple. I think JonBenet took the pineapple herself without their knowledge and that is why we have a bugaboo.

Note that the Ramseys questioned the pineapple evidence. "Are you sure?" Asking to see photos of the pineapple. Patsy questioning the point about the fingerprints being on the bowl. They were very suspicious that the police were lying.

John seems indignant about the pineapple and the fact that Lou keeps telling him that they needed to get to the bottom of the it. There's lots of stuttering, half finished sentences in his responses


25 JOHN RAMSEY: I can see why

0526

1 you -- you know, this question, where did it

2 come from, but I don't think -- other than the

3 fact that there is this bowl on the table, which

4 I can't -- Patsy needs to look at it to answer

5 that question. But I don't -- it's either very

6 significant if the intruder somehow -- well,

7 that just doesn't make sense.





UNTIL Lou settles on the theory that a familiar perp might have fed it to her - an intruder whom she recognised. Then John seems to become more confident in his responses.


12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I say it hit

13 me like a ton of bricks when I thought about it.

14 I said that's very conceivable. Trying to

15 explain where she ate pineapple and there was

16 pineapple on the table. I don't know if that

17 bowl of pineapple on the table came -- I don't

18 remember seeing it that morning, but it was

19 chaos, so you know, there was food that was

20 gotten out, when people were there. They made

21 toast, I think, that was pretty much all

22 confined to the kitchen, the kitchen counter

23 area.

[UKGuy]

Ah, but see I don't think Patsy did give JonBenet the pineapple. I think JonBenet took the pineapple herself without their knowledge and that is why we have a bugaboo.

Note that the Ramseys questioned the pineapple evidence. "Are you sure?" Asking to see photos of the pineapple. Patsy questioning the point about the fingerprints being on the bowl. They were very suspicious that the police were lying.

John seems indignant about the pineapple and the fact that Lou keeps telling him that they needed to get to the bottom of the it. There's lots of stuttering, half finished sentences in his responses





UNTIL Lou settles on the theory that a familiar perp might have fed it to her - an intruder whom she recognised. Then John seems to become more confident in his responses.


Jayelles,



I think JonBenet took the pineapple herself without their knowledge and that is why we have a bugaboo.

It seem as if the definition of the bugaboo is shifting. It does not matter what you or I think about JonBenet snacking pineapple, because we were not there!

What the pineapple residue in her stomach tells us is that JonBenet was alive and awake during a specific time-frame after the Ramsey's returned from the White's!

This contradicts the parents version of events, they say she was placed sleeping into bed, and then they went to bed.

The forensic evidence tells you JonBenet was awake and walking about the Ramsey house long after they allegedly went to bed.

We do not have any bugaboo, but the Ramsey's version of events is rendered inconsistent due to the discovery of the pineapple residue.

This inconsistency or bugaboo adds to any investigators perception of events, and reduces considerably the credibility of the Ramsey version.

I repeat we do not have a bugaboo the Ramsey's, and Lou Smit may have though!



.

[Eagle1]

Could the pineapple have been left in the bowl on the table from earlier in the day? Maybe JonBenet' was asleep when she came home from the White's. Maybe she woke up feeling hungry because she had not eaten much at the party, saw the pineapple that was left out and ate it.

Of course it's possible that at lunch time, JonBenet wanted some pineapple for desert and they left the bowl on the table, and then she ate more when they came home. I'm not denying that the R's sometimes lied.

NP's statement that pineapple was the LAST thing eaten is certainly important. And fresh pineapple does go bad pretty fast. Also the stomach contents would have deteriorated pretty fast, so they probably couldn't be kept as evidence.

The pineapple and the dictionary prove those wrong, I think, who declare repeatedly "There's no forensic evidence of an intruder." We have absolutely no proof whatsoever that it was the R's who left both clues, but were so efficient about cleaning up all other clues, and what non-committal answers to give. They weren't stupid.

Pineapple was eaten LAST, so, even though family prints were on the bowl, we have no proof WHO gave it to her after their returning home.

Likewise the dictionary. They were educated enough not to need to look up the word "incest". And Burke seemed to cope with things by hiding in his bed pretending to be asleep, but said he heard the house creaking that night.

He would hardly leave a dictionary open and dog-eared to a word that he wouldn't want his father knowing he looked up, now would he?

Someone said in another thread, maybe the note writer was looking up the correct spelling of another word, "individual". Again, a journalizm major would not have trouble with the spelling and look up one word but not another, such as "business", imo, although that was good creative thinking from our poster. And the unusually large dog-ear, from the bottom, was said to be pointing to exactly the word "incest". Making it an obviously-planted clue to someone familiar other than family, the parents seemed so too-trusting, not using the alarm, leaving windows partially open to accomodate Christmas lights wiring, etc. If there was an intruder he probably even had a key, he would have been so familiar. But I digress, and now back to the excellent pineapple clues discussion.

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,



It seem as if the definition of the bugaboo is shifting. It does not matter what you or I think about JonBenet snacking pineapple, because we were not there!

What the pineapple residue in her stomach tells us is that JonBenet was alive and awake during a specific time-frame after the Ramsey's returned from the White's!
Not quite - the other option is that she ate it before going to the Whites and died VERY soon after arriving home. IMO, that is a much more damning scenario for the ramseys.

Elsewhere, a poster makes an excellent point:-

So it is quite hard to imagine that the Ramseys, who had hired the best lawyers/experts to assist them in their defense, could not or would not
have gotten some expert advice on what the pineapple findings implied. If it was clear that police investigators would strongly conclude the pineapple likely was eaten after they got home (and even Lou Smit admits the pineapple is problematic), then why not either admit they fed it to her (if that's what they did) or open up the possibility that JBR/Burke could have gotten up in the middle of the night to eat some after they had gone to bed? It just really doesn't make sense. Flat out denial of the pineapple has always made the Ramseys look like liars in the eyes of RDI proponents, so why not deny their critics that lever? The very fact that they deny something even though it makes them look more guilty is part of what convinces me they likely are telling the truth.
Why not indeed? My guess (and it is a guess) lies in my perception of the Ramsey character. If they admitted they'd lied about Jonbenet being asleep - if only to try and provide an innocent explanation for the pineapple - would be extremely damning for them. It's too big a lie and if both of them had colluded in the lie about something as important as the events during the final hours of their daughter's life, then they would be in very deep doodoo indeed.

The Ramseys had already locked themselves into their stories - better to have a bugaboo which cannot be proved one way or the other than to admit they'd colluded in such a big lie.

[UKGuy]

Not quite - the other option is that she ate it before going to the Whites and died VERY soon after arriving home. IMO, that is a much more damning scenario for the ramseys.

Elsewhere, a poster makes an excellent point:-


Why not indeed? My guess (and it is a guess) lies in my perception of the Ramsey character. If they admitted they'd lied about Jonbenet being asleep - if only to try and provide an innocent explanation for the pineapple - would be extremely damning for them. It's too big a lie and if both of them had colluded in the lie about something as important as the events during the final hours of their daughter's life, then they would be in very deep doodoo indeed.

The Ramseys had already locked themselves into their stories - better to have a bugaboo which cannot be proved one way or the other than to admit they'd colluded in such a big lie.

Jayelles,

Not quite - the other option is that she ate it before going to the Whites and died VERY soon after arriving home. IMO, that is a much more damning scenario for the ramseys.

Excepting that JonBenet consumed crab at the White's party, and that the pineapple was the last thing she ate, as confirmed by its position in her digestive system.


.

[coloradokares]

Jayelles,



It seem as if the definition of the bugaboo is shifting. It does not matter what you or I think about JonBenet snacking pineapple, because we were not there!

What the pineapple residue in her stomach tells us is that JonBenet was alive and awake during a specific time-frame after the Ramsey's returned from the White's!

This contradicts the parents version of events, they say she was placed sleeping into bed, and then they went to bed.

The forensic evidence tells you JonBenet was awake and walking about the Ramsey house long after they allegedly went to bed.

We do not have any bugaboo, but the Ramsey's version of events is rendered inconsistent due to the discovery of the pineapple residue.

This inconsistency or bugaboo adds to any investigators perception of events, and reduces considerably the credibility of the Ramsey version.

I repeat we do not have a bugaboo the Ramsey's, and Lou Smit may have though!



.
Note John becomes more comfortable if Lou Smit puts a familiar intruder twist to it. Oh good more proof from which to throw friends under the bus with. Yessss.... must have been good old Fleet..... or Santa or Barnhill or LHP or her husband or on and on and on one by one the tires of the bus go bump bump bump. Maybe the finger prints were Patsys.....and it was but one more inconsistency they will never explain.

[UKGuy]

Note John becomes more comfortable if Lou Smit puts a familiar intruder twist to it. Oh good more proof from which to throw friends under the bus with. Yessss.... must have been good old Fleet..... or Santa or Barnhill or LHP or her husband or on and on and on one by one the tires of the bus go bump bump bump. Maybe the finger prints were Patsys.....and it was but one more inconsistency they will never explain.

coloradokares,

Sure, and without Lou Smit, the Ramsey's may have been looking at a homicide charge, many people including the media accepted Lou Smit's authority and went for the intruder theory.

That bowl is Patsy's, it has her fingerprints all over it. The pineapple is fresh cut, straight out of Safeway's, the scene is domestic, nothing out place or untoward. But Patsy denies ever seing the bowl!

Do they expect Lou Smit to magic a psychotic pedophile out of thin air, who has a fetish for feeding 6-year old girls fresh cut pineapple from his own bowl, brought specifically for this purpose, yet despite being so meticulous in removing other evidence, he leaves his bowl behind?

.

[JMO8778]

I repeat we do not have a bugaboo the Ramsey's, and Lou Smit may have though!



.LS is a bug and a boo,all rolled into one. JMO

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Sure, and without Lou Smit, the Ramsey's may have been looking at a homicide charge, many people including the media accepted Lou Smit's authority and went for the intruder theory.

That bowl is Patsy's, it has her fingerprints all over it. The pineapple is fresh cut, straight out of Safeway's, the scene is domestic, nothing out place or untoward. But Patsy denies ever seing the bowl!

Do they expect Lou Smit to magic a psychotic pedophile out of thin air, who has a fetish for feeding 6-year old girls fresh cut pineapple from his own bowl, brought specifically for this purpose, yet despite being so meticulous in removing other evidence, he leaves his bowl behind?

.
Well with Michael Traceys help he finally did.....JMK. Took him a while to get that rabbit drug out of the hat.

[Dru]

...the pineapple is one of those clues that points overwhelmingly to the R's involvement.

Not only because it's their house, their dish, and presumably their pineapple, so why act all uncertain about it. But also, and more importantly, because the intruder scenario becomes just so farfetched at this point.

The pineapple had been in JBR's system for at least two hours before she was killed. So our hypothetical intruder had to get into the house (possibly while the R's were at the White's), familiarize himself with the layout, location of such items as the RN pad, the rope, etc., but also rummage through the R's kitchen for a food item JBR will want to eat. Then he had to abduct JBR from her bed, feed her pineapple, and wait around for two hours before he killed her. Even if he were someone she knew, this would be hard to believe, but an unknown intruder? Impossible.

[Chrishope]

So when did the intruder use the stun gun? Before or after feeding her pineapple? :-)

If he plies her with pineapple to get her out of her room, why does he need to use a stun gun later?

If he uses a stun gun to get her out of her room, why does he need to feed her pineapple?

[coloradokares]

So when did the intruder use the stun gun? Before or after feeding her pineapple? :-)

If he plies her with pineapple to get her out of her room, why does he need to use a stun gun later?

If he uses a stun gun to get her out of her room, why does he need to feed her pineapple?

What we have here is a failure to communicate. ROTFLMHO :laugh:

[Becba]

The Ramseys had to stick to the story that JonBenet was asleep when they got home and put straight to bed. Obviously she was awake to eat pineapple. Did she get up and serve herself? Did one of her parents get angry because they had an early morning schedule and JonBenet wanted to eat and also wet herself? Did feed her pineapple and molest her after?

[icedtea4me]

The Ramseys had to stick to the story that JonBenet was asleep when they got home and put straight to bed. Obviously she was awake to eat pineapple. Did she get up and serve herself? Did one of her parents get angry because they had an early morning schedule and JonBenet wanted to eat and also wet herself? Did feed her pineapple and molest her after?DOI pp. 2-3 (hb version) - Now, with Christmas morning here, Santa had just one more thing to do before the little ones waiting on the third floor were allowed to rip into the picturesque setting. I slipped out to the garage and quickly wheeled in a new bike for Patsy.


-Tea

[azwriter]

This is the first fact of this case (this lie) that turned me from innocent to maybe they're involved. She had pineapple...why lie about it. It was so easy to tell the truth on this so yes there must be something they were trying to hide by lying.
If Patsy and John admit that JonBenet had pineapple, then they have to admit she was wide awake when they arrived home. For some reason it was important to tell authorities their daughter was put safely into bed. So, a lie about the pineapple is necessary.
Also wasn't there a glass with a tea bag and a spoon in it on the table ?
I think I also heard Burke was fold of tea. Was that his night time snack?
JMO

[Ames]

If Patsy and John admit that JonBenet had pineapple, then they have to admit she was wide awake when they arrived home. For some reason it was important to tell authorities their daughter was put safely into bed. So, a lie about the pineapple is necessary.
Also wasn't there a glass with a tea bag and a spoon in it on the table ?
I think I also heard Burke was fold of tea. Was that his night time snack?
JMO
Exactly! It makes keeping the story straight alot easier...and makes the "intruder" theory fit..if they say that they tucked her safely into bed, and that was the last time that they saw her alive.

[JMO8778]

Plus,lawyers like to use the KISS theory...it helps keep the story straight.JB was put straight to bed,BR never woke up...except,they forgot to ask if JB had anything to EAT ! opps..

..and..PR didn't hang up right away...BR on the 911 tape..another oops.

[coloradokares]

Plus,lawyers like to use the KISS theory...it helps keep the story straight.JB was put straight to bed,BR never woke up...except,they forgot to ask if JB had anything to EAT ! opps..

..and..PR didn't hang up right away...BR on the 911 tape..another oops.There are more opps than that. The red turtleneck wet and crumpled. The little matter of the receipts for the exact amount at Mc Guckins. If any of you are ever in Boulder don't miss the trip to McGuckins. If you can't find it anywhere else McGuckins will have it.

[Ames]

Plus,lawyers like to use the KISS theory...it helps keep the story straight.JB was put straight to bed,BR never woke up...except,they forgot to ask if JB had anything to EAT ! opps..

..and..PR didn't hang up right away...BR on the 911 tape..another oops.
Burke seemed to have forgotten the story about JB being asleep..says she walked in and even helped to carry presents....OOPS! John and Patsy saying at first that JB was awake, and read and sang to....OOPS! So many OOPSIES....too little time. LOL

[Daisy]

Good points on the oopsies everyone! The thing about these Ramsey oopsies that makes my eyes roll back into my head is that they're not just teeny tiny oopsies but HUGE ones. We're talking story #2 is a big contradiction of story #1 and stories # 3,4,5, etc. all contradict each other as well. JBR was or was not awake. Is that so hard to remember? I think I'd definitely remember if my kid was awake or not without having to correct myself (well, "amend the story" is a better way of putting it). Then denying she was fed pineapple when it's obviously in her stomach? When they couldn't answer that one, then all of a sudden this pineapple and bowl become "mystery pineapple and bowl". :doh: Funny thing is they expected everyone to believe it. I don't know if anyone truly truly truly believed this line of crap. I think those in cahoots with the Ramsey's (such as a certain D.A. for one) CHOSE to do the mental gymnastics to make it fit into the IDI theory and spread that onto the [much wiser] public.

[angelwngs]

If Patsy and John admit that JonBenet had pineapple, then they have to admit she was wide awake when they arrived home. For some reason it was important to tell authorities their daughter was put safely into bed. So, a lie about the pineapple is necessary.
Also wasn't there a glass with a tea bag and a spoon in it on the table ?
I think I also heard Burke was fold of tea. Was that his night time snack?
JMO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/2006-06-29_schiller12.jpg

Here's a photo of the pineapple, teabag in glass and box of tissue on the kitchen table. Does it look as if an "intruder" logically placed any of this on this table?
We know whose fingerprints are on the bowl and the glass but what about the spoon? I wonder if JBR didn't just pick up the pineapple with her fingers and eat it or if Burke was eating it and JBR asked for some and he dipped the spoon into the bowl and offered it on the spoon with JBR never touching the spoon...
Also, the teabag looks as if an adult put it in the glass and draped the string over the top of the glass for easy removal... after a cup of hot tea was made and the glass just became the vessel for holding the used teabag...
The fact that pineapple was found as the last item entering in JBR's digestive system combined with this photo make for some very interesting questions.
The only logical reason for a box of kleenex on a kitchen table is someone is sick with a cold, sore throat and runny nose, (which would also explain a cup of hot tea), or someone is upset and crying... As a parent I always tried to avoid and discourage the use of kleenex and tissue to wipe sticky fingers or sticky mouth because of the mess it made...
This photo speaks volumes to me........

[Ames]

Good points on the oopsies everyone! The thing about these Ramsey oopsies that makes my eyes roll back into my head is that they're not just teeny tiny oopsies but HUGE ones. We're talking story #2 is a big contradiction of story #1 and stories # 3,4,5, etc. all contradict each other as well. JBR was or was not awake. Is that so hard to remember? I think I'd definitely remember if my kid was awake or not without having to correct myself (well, "amend the story" is a better way of putting it). Then denying she was fed pineapple when it's obviously in her stomach? When they couldn't answer that one, then all of a sudden this pineapple and bowl become "mystery pineapple and bowl". :doh: Funny thing is they expected everyone to believe it. I don't know if anyone truly truly truly believed this line of crap. I think those in cahoots with the Ramsey's (such as a certain D.A. for one) CHOSE to do the mental gymnastics to make it fit into the IDI theory and spread that onto the [much wiser] public.Well said! Two more to add to the oopsie list....Patsy at first stating that JB went to bed wearing the red shirt, and then later changed it to the white one...OOPS! During an interview, when asked when they last saw their daughter alive, John answered, and then looked at Patsy, and asked her if he was correct about the time. DUHHHH....You would think that he would have remembered such a major thing, as seeing his daughter alive for the last time..OOPS! ( This is a rare picture of the Ramsey's that nobody has ever seen before. This was sent to me, in a mysterious envelope....the sender is a mystery). The Ramsey's....:liar:

[Ames]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/2006-06-29_schiller12.jpg

Here's a photo of the pineapple, teabag in glass and box of tissue on the kitchen table. Does it look as if an "intruder" logically placed any of this on this table?

<snipped>
.......

Thanks for posting this photo...I had never seen it before. A question that I would like to ask the Ramsey's. So, the intruder not only gave JB pineapple to eat, before he molested and murdered her, but he also made himself a glass of tea? Wow, he sure was brave....he just made himself at "HOME"...didn't he?

[Daisy]

Well said! Two more to add to the oopsie list....Patsy at first stating that JB went to bed wearing the red shirt, and then later changed it to the white one...OOPS! During an interview, when asked when they last saw their daughter alive, John answered, and then looked at Patsy, and asked her if he was correct about the time. DUHHHH....You would think that he would have remembered such a major thing, as seeing his daughter alive for the last time..OOPS! ( This is a rare picture of the Ramsey's that nobody has ever seen before. This was sent to me, in a mysterious envelope....the sender is a mystery). The Ramsey's....:liar:
:clap: Bingo, Ames! I, too, would remember if my child were wearing a red or white shirt. They are not "that" close in color! ;) And why would John have to ask Patsy if that were the correct time he saw JBR alive? It would be entirely logical for him to have maybe last seen her alive at a different time than Patsy. But to have to confirm it? Things that make you go :waitasec: , huh?

One thing I've often wondered about is why JR had two conflicting stories about his interaction or lack of with JBR Christmas night? One story of his is that he read to her for a bit before she went to bed. Then in another story he completely does an about-face and says he went straight upstairs (if I remember correctly) and that PATSY was the one who put her to bed. Why would it be important for him to 1) say that he read to JBR and then 2) completely remove himself from any interaction with her by stating he went straight upstairs and that JBR was left to Patsy's care? :confused: Exactly what is he removing himself from and why?

[Ames]

:clap: Bingo, Ames! I, too, would remember if my child were wearing a red or white shirt. They are not "that" close in color! ;) And why would John have to ask Patsy if that were the correct time he saw JBR alive? It would be entirely logical for him to have maybe last seen her alive at a different time than Patsy. But to have to confirm it? Things that make you go :waitasec: , huh?

One thing I've often wondered about is why JR had two conflicting stories about his interaction or lack of with JBR Christmas night? One story of his is that he read to her for a bit before she went to bed. Then in another story he completely does an about-face and says he went straight upstairs (if I remember correctly) and that PATSY was the one who put her to bed. Why would it be important for him to 1) say that he read to JBR and then 2) completely remove himself from any interaction with her by stating he went straight upstairs and that JBR was left to Patsy's care? :confused: Exactly what is he removing himself from and why?He had to change his story, to make it coincide with JB being asleep, when she arrived home. First series of events as told by the Ramsey's. JB awake when she got home, John read her a book, and Patsy sang to her. Burke, says JB was awake too. Second series of events as told by the Ramsey's. JB was asleep and carried up, Patsy turned down the covers, John placed JB on the bed and then made himself scarce. Patsy says that JB was "zonked out"...so she changes the pants that she is wearing. Burke also changes his mind about JB being awake when she arrives home. Seems that NOBODY in that Ramsey household, can remember if JB was awake or asleep....a very important little "tidbit"....IMO. Saying that she was asleep, and that she was placed in the bed, makes it easier for them to all keep their story straight. Its simple, and to the point. She was ASLEEP...the END! They would have more to explain if they had of stuck with their original story about JB being awake when she arrived home from the Whites. Where did the pineapple fit in? What did she do, before she went to bed? Was there an argument? ETC.... Way to many questions for the Ramsey's to have to answer or to try and keep straight. John was trying to distance himself from JB, I believe that he thought that the more interaction that he said that he had with her, the guiltier he would look. SOOOOOO.....she was ASLEEP.....THE END.

[angelwngs]

Burke seemed to have forgotten the story about JB being asleep..says she walked in and even helped to carry presents....OOPS! John and Patsy saying at first that JB was awake, and read and sang to....OOPS! So many OOPSIES....too little time. LOL~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another inconsistancy...

http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm

NE article states that the R's did not know Burke was awake on the morning of the 911 call until he tesified such at before the grand jury.

[Daisy]

Does anyone think that one day Burke might just crack and feel compelled to tell everything that he knows about that night? Maybe after JR is dead?

[Ames]

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another inconsistancy...

http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm

NE article states that the R's did not know Burke was awake on the morning of the 911 call until he tesified such at before the grand jury.
Yes, I have read about this...and it wasn't in the Enquirer. Burke admitted that he had been "pretending" to be asleep, when his dad checked on him. He said later that he had heard voices, in the hallway.

[Ames]

Does anyone think that one day Burke might just crack and feel compelled to tell everything that he knows about that night? Maybe after JR is dead?
I, for one, think that he knows more than he is saying. I certainly hope for JB sake, that he WILL crack one day and tell everything he knows. I am sure though, it will not happen..until JR is dead.

[coloradokares]

Good points on the oopsies everyone! The thing about these Ramsey oopsies that makes my eyes roll back into my head is that they're not just teeny tiny oopsies but HUGE ones. We're talking story #2 is a big contradiction of story #1 and stories # 3,4,5, etc. all contradict each other as well. JBR was or was not awake. Is that so hard to remember? I think I'd definitely remember if my kid was awake or not without having to correct myself (well, "amend the story" is a better way of putting it). Then denying she was fed pineapple when it's obviously in her stomach? When they couldn't answer that one, then all of a sudden this pineapple and bowl become "mystery pineapple and bowl". :doh: Funny thing is they expected everyone to believe it. I don't know if anyone truly truly truly believed this line of crap. I think those in cahoots with the Ramsey's (such as a certain D.A. for one) CHOSE to do the mental gymnastics to make it fit into the IDI theory and spread that onto the [much wiser] public.
I dont' think for one minute DA Alex Hunter though this was not all a line of crap. What I think is to him ....there wasn't enough evidence that they were not effectively countering with the crap to prosecute. He needed either Patsy to testify against John or flip it and John testify against Patsy. Then he had the lock. But you cannot legally compel spouses to testify one against the other..... and he knew that and he only prosecuted SURE BETS. Especially when he'd of been going up against his long time buddy their attorney. So I think the deal was sealed..... Now Mary Lacy far as I am concerned she will never move against the Ramseys. Enter stage left Govorner Bill Ritter....hes sworn in now:) Give him time to get settled in and deal with all this blizzard disaster relief.....then ........hopefully things will happen.

[coloradokares]

:clap: Bingo, Ames! I, too, would remember if my child were wearing a red or white shirt. They are not "that" close in color! ;) And why would John have to ask Patsy if that were the correct time he saw JBR alive? It would be entirely logical for him to have maybe last seen her alive at a different time than Patsy. But to have to confirm it? Things that make you go :waitasec: , huh?

One thing I've often wondered about is why JR had two conflicting stories about his interaction or lack of with JBR Christmas night? One story of his is that he read to her for a bit before she went to bed. Then in another story he completely does an about-face and says he went straight upstairs (if I remember correctly) and that PATSY was the one who put her to bed. Why would it be important for him to 1) say that he read to JBR and then 2) completely remove himself from any interaction with her by stating he went straight upstairs and that JBR was left to Patsy's care? :confused: Exactly what is he removing himself from and why?
Thats simple he distanced himself from changing any of JonBenet's clothing and readying her for bed....which removes him from the physical dressing or undressing of his daughter.....therby distance from molestation. Like a dad can't or wouldnt help ready his own daughter for bed. C'mon...that is normal. Lying about it and taking pains to point out he left the clothing her for bed etc up to Patsy just fingers him in my opinion. Sheesh.

[Toltec]

I, for one, think that he knows more than he is saying. I certainly hope for JB sake, that he WILL crack one day and tell everything he knows. I am sure though, it will not happen..until JR is dead.

John Ramsey stated that Burke would most likely talk about it when he was 40 years old....enough time for dear old dad and perhaps JAR to croak.

[Ames]

John Ramsey stated that Burke would most likely talk about it when he was 40 years old....enough time for dear old dad and perhaps JAR to croak.
I am sure that JR gave Burke permission to talk....WHEN he is 40....you are right, after "dear old dad and perhaps JAR croak"....(LOL, that was funny!)

[icedtea4me]

John Ramsey stated that Burke would most likely talk about it when he was 40 years old....enough time for dear old dad and perhaps JAR to croak."They keep a lot inside and they don't really start thinking about it until they get to be 40 years old and that's when it hurts."

I think this is also a veiled message about Patsy, who was a few days shy of her 40th when the murder occurred.


-Tea

[Ames]

"They keep a lot inside and they don't really start thinking about it until they get to be 40 years old and that's when it hurts."

I think this is also a veiled message about Patsy, who was a few days shy of her 40th when the murder occurred.


-Tea
I knew that 40 sounded significant for some reason...as you have pointed out, Patsy was a few days shy of her 40th when the murder occurred....THATS what it was.

[snowqueen]

There are more opps than that. The red turtleneck wet and crumpled. The little matter of the receipts for the exact amount at Mc Guckins. If any of you are ever in Boulder don't miss the trip to McGuckins. If you can't find it anywhere else McGuckins will have it.
And how many other items for the exact same amount can you find at McGuckins? Didn't the study that the UC students conducted find over 1000 items?

[Jayelles]

And how many other items for the exact same amount can you find at McGuckins? Didn't the study that the UC students conducted find over 1000 items?
Yes there were lots. It is rather weak circumstantial evidence only.

[coloradokares]

And how many other items for the exact same amount can you find at McGuckins? Didn't the study that the UC students conducted find over 1000 items?Yes that might be not that I have ever seen that information substantiated by departments but ... how odd the same departments the same exact prices.....calculate the odds on that .... It would be difficult to accept that someone got away with murder based on the fact that item name wasn't listed on the receipts. Or that they were convicted based solely on that premise. But if you take all the other evidence is it such a stretch to see the perponderance?

[icedtea4me]

What about the process of "inclusion through exclusion"? You list all of the other items which sold for those two prices. Then you have the Ramseys produce these items. In other words, you include the tape and cord by excluding all of the other items.


-Tea

[Jayelles]

Even if they could prove the Ramseys purchased duct tape and cord, it wouldn't prove they were the murderers - only that the items could have come from the Ramsey home - as did the notepaper, pen, flashlight etc, etc.

I have to say, there's a lot of things I couldn't swear to having bought because they are routine items, but I don't think cord and duct tape are routine items. I distinctly remember buying a roll of duct tape three years ago. We were doing a school musical and the zips in the hired boots kept breaking so we resorted to duct-taping them closed. I can remember going into the DIY store and buying this tape as clearly as though it were yesterday.

It's a great pity McGuckins didn't do itemised receipts.

[Toltec]

JOHN...."...if we said JonBenet ate pineapple between 9pm when she went to bed and when we found her, that is the only way that's plausible for to me that she could have eaten.

[coloradokares]

Even if they could prove the Ramseys purchased duct tape and cord, it wouldn't prove they were the murderers - only that the items could have come from the Ramsey home - as did the notepaper, pen, flashlight etc, etc.

I have to say, there's a lot of things I couldn't swear to having bought because they are routine items, but I don't think cord and duct tape are routine items. I distinctly remember buying a roll of duct tape three years ago. We were doing a school musical and the zips in the hired boots kept breaking so we resorted to duct-taping them closed. I can remember going into the DIY store and buying this tape as clearly as though it were yesterday.

It's a great pity McGuckins didn't do itemised receipts.
They do now :D