Autopsy

[close_enough]

Raleigh — Michelle Young was beaten numerous times and suffered a fractured skull when she was killed in early November, according to the autopsy report, which was released Monday.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175401/

figured this will call for a thread of it's own.....

[happy2bn10ec]

Raleigh — Michelle Young was beaten numerous times and suffered a fractured skull when she was killed in early November, according to the autopsy report, which was released Monday.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175401/

figured this will call for a thread of it's own.....
oh, yes...

[raisincharlie]

The cut on Michelle's left hand really bothers me...

[close_enough]

The cut on Michelle's left hand really bothers me...

yeah....a cut...

odd...A CUT
....maybe some glass from the lamp??...if she were trying to get a lamp from him??

[close_enough]

oh, yes...

morning Hap:)

yeah...big news today after sooooooo long of nothing but 'inside' info/rumor & all.......i'm keeping an eye on the WRAL site for updates.....makes me wonder if something big is fixin to 'blow', ya know??...hopefully an arrest...

[close_enough]

the actual autopsy is on the WRAL site now...

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175401/

[close_enough]

wow...she had on a zipped sweat shirt, T-shirt & black pants..

edited to correct

[close_enough]

LE took into evidence "a single hair stuck in blood on the left hand".......

[close_enough]

at least 13 lacerations on the back of her head :(

[close_enough]

The cut on Michelle's left hand really bothers me...

"blunt force injury to the extremities has resulted in laceration of the left thumb".....good grief, she had lacerations, abrasions, & contusions just about everywhere....definately broke her jaw...

2 lacerations...upper & lower lip....the scratches on her were consistent with fingernail marks....
sounds like "the perp" might not have been wearing gloves from the above info.....

[happy2bn10ec]

morning Hap:)

yeah...big news today after sooooooo long of nothing but 'inside' info/rumor & all.......i'm keeping an eye on the WRAL site for updates.....makes me wonder if something big is fixin to 'blow', ya know??...hopefully an arrest...Yeah, an arrest would be nice, huh?

O/T - sorry! But I sent you a email and it came back - this is the second time. Sumpin' wrong with your mail? Got the cd today! Thanks.

But I got an email FROM you yesterday...?

[WhiteWolf]

Thanks, close-enough.

So, she wasn't undressed for bed yet or did she normally wear a zipped sweatshirt, t-shirt, and pants to bed? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Some evidence of manual strangulation.

Numerous defense wounds on her hands.

Wow, she must have put up a big fight for her life.

The single hair stuck in blood on her left hand sounds promising. A defense attorney will call it innocent transfer if it belongs to Jason, though.

[close_enough]

Yeah, an arrest would be nice, huh?

O/T - sorry! But I sent you a email and it came back - this is the second time. Sumpin' wrong with your mail? Got the cd today! Thanks.

lol, seems something is always wrong w/my email....i get them days & days late, or i can't send them... :crazy:
glad you got it!!!

HEY...i sure wish Polk was here....she may very well have been right about MY being killed closer to 5 or 6 am ...... Michelle was found, sounds to me like, fully clothed...hooded sweatshirt, T-shirt, & black pants.....over at ctv, they have me now wondering if Polk might have been right...MAYBE Michelle had just woke UP in the morning & was attacked...hmmmmm, i don't know, OR she was attacked VERY soon after her friend left that night.....

POLK...where are you????

[WhiteWolf]

"blunt force injury to the extremities has resulted in laceration of the left thumb".....good grief, she had lacerations, abrasions, & contusions just about everywhere....definately broke her jaw...

2 lacerations...upper & lower lip....the scratches on her were consistent with fingernail marks....
sounds like "the perp" might not have been wearing gloves from the above info.....


Where were the scratches located? I can't read the autopsy with my webtv.

If she was strangled at first, she could have scratched herself about the face and neck trying to get the perps hands off her neck.

[close_enough]

Thanks, close-enough.

So, she wasn't undressed for bed yet or did she normally wear a zipped sweatshirt, t-shirt, and pants to bed? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Some evidence of manual strangulation.

Numerous defense wounds on her hands.

Wow, she must have put up a big fight for her life.

The single hair stuck in blood on her left hand sounds promising. A defense attorney will call it innocent transfer if it belongs to Jason, though.

yes yes....& the scratches on her neck were those of fingernails looks like...

yes, her hands, bless her heart...multiple bruising on both of her hands...

you're right about the hair transfer...defense can always say it was on the carpet & transferred to her bloody hand....this is just awful...i knew it would be, but actually READING it, & knowing what she went through, it's much more 'rough'.....ugh

[close_enough]

Where were the scratches located? I can't read the autopsy with my webtv.

If she was strangled at first, she could have scratched herself about the face and neck trying to get the perps hands off her neck.

very good point, WW

set of scratches on the left side of the neck...the scratches are consistent with fingernail marks....

[close_enough]

where did you go RC??????...what's your thoughts on the clothing Michelle had on???

[happy2bn10ec]

I almost wish I hadn't read it now...that poor girl really fought back. How in the world did Cassidy not hear that? She HAD to - no wonder he is keeping her away from everyone.

[packerdog]

Hmmmmm... No sexual assault, fully clothed, no robbery,but someone really, really angry. We thought there were 10 blows to her head, it looks much worse. Alot of the blows to the head have a kinda enlongated look to them. I am thinking a fire place poker. What do you all think?

[close_enough]

I almost wish I hadn't read it now...that poor girl really fought back. How in the world did Cassidy not hear that? She HAD to - no wonder he is keeping her away from everyone.

i agree Happy...i'm tellin ya, after i heard that 911 call, i was stunned....i believe Cassidy saw what happened...if she didn't, she walked in on the 'ending' of it...jmo

i got quite emotional reading it myself...then it just 'runs all over me' & makes me angry :furious:

[packerdog]

It also seems that she had eaten not to long before she was attacked. I think he tried to strangle her first and she fought him off, then he may have picked up something to hit her with.

[panthera]

"blunt force injury to the extremities has resulted in laceration of the left thumb".....good grief, she had lacerations, abrasions, & contusions just about everywhere....definately broke her jaw...

2 lacerations...upper & lower lip....the scratches on her were consistent with fingernail marks....
sounds like "the perp" might not have been wearing gloves from the above info.....This part is really interesting ~ and odd ~ that fingernail marks would be left on her neck. Wouldn't expect Jason's (or men's) nails to be that long.

[panthera]

where did you go RC??????...what's your thoughts on the clothing Michelle had on???I'm not raisincharlie, but I'm thinking she hadn't gone to bed yet when this happened.

[BarnGoddess]

I wonder if LE has JY under 24 hour watch. Waiting DNA results maybe. Since the autopsy mentioned blood under fingernails, they won't know if it isn't his until then. What intrigues me is the scratches on her neck. As one poster said, no gloves apparantly. Most burglers today and even sophisticated "hit men" would have worn them. Wouldn't want to leave prints.

The report said they took fingerprints. I am assuming that meant her prints.

[close_enough]

Hmmmmm... No sexual assault, fully clothed, no robbery,but someone really, really angry. We thought there were 10 blows to her head, it looks much worse. Alot of the blows to the head have a kinda enlongated look to them. I am thinking a fire place poker. What do you all think?

gosh packerdog...i went back & studied a minute...i'm just not sure what to think by looking at them....there's 13 just on the back of her head....they do LOOK elongated, but some dont'....IF the weapon was a lamp, it's possible the 'pole' part of the lamp caused some to look that way?????....i just have no idea, by looking at them, what type of weapon was used....fire place poker would do the job also, i'm sure...

oh my...& all the brusing on her hands...some lacerations too...maybe she used her hands to cover her head at some point.....oh my

[panthera]

I wonder if LE has JY under 24 hour watch. Waiting DNA results maybe. Since the autopsy mentioned blood under fingernails, they won't know if it isn't his until then. What intrigues me is the scratches on her neck. As one poster said, no gloves apparantly. Most burglers today and even sophisticated "hit men" would have worn them. Wouldn't want to leave prints.

The report said they took fingerprints. I am assuming that meant her prints.I'd think the prints mentioned in the report would be hers. The first concern a perp would have would be leaving 'evidence' behind, including their own fingerprints. Now, if there aren't any strange fingerprints on the exterior doors, or whatever the point of entry was and yet there are fingernail marks on her neck, that definitely points toward Jason since the perp wouldn't take the gloves off once inside.

[close_enough]

This part is really interesting ~ and odd ~ that fingernail marks would be left on her neck. Wouldn't expect Jason's (or men's) nails to be that long.

good point panthera...WW also brought up, that Michelle might have scratched herself on the neck, while trying to remove "the perps" hands from her throat....

eta.....although SOME men do have fingernails that might penetrate & scratch, if they were holding onto someone's neck hard enough...(if that makes sense?)

[happy2bn10ec]

good point panthera...WW also brought up, that Michelle might have scratched herself on the neck, while trying to remove "the perps" hands from her throat....
If I am looking at it right, the scratches on her neck go up and down - makes me think it WAS her fingernails, trying to get his hands off her neck, reaching up and trying to get under his hands...?

This gets worse the more I think about it...

[packerdog]

very sad when they mention the unborn baby boy inside her. Makes me sick.

[close_enough]

It also seems that she had eaten not to long before she was attacked. I think he tried to strangle her first and she fought him off, then he may have picked up something to hit her with.

yeah, it wasn't easy to kill her....she struggled so hard that it pissed him off even more.....that's where all this rage/violence/overkill comes from....she fought him hard, & most likely it took him much longer to kill her, than he expected.....

[panthera]

good point panthera...WW also brought up, that Michelle might have scratched herself on the neck, while trying to remove "the perps" hands from her throat....

eta.....although SOME men do have fingernails that might penetrate & scratch, if they were holding onto someone's neck hard enough...(if that makes sense?)Yes and since we don't know the length of Jason's nails, but it just struck me that the description almost sounded like it could be a woman who did it ~ although we have no evidence of that. And I'd still think that the perp would have had some injuries.

[panthera]

very sad when they mention the unborn baby boy inside her. Makes me sick.Which makes no sense either after reading the People article where it said that Jason wanted a son. Extremely troubling and sad to me.

[raisincharlie]

where did you go RC??????...what's your thoughts on the clothing Michelle had on???
Sorry Close - I am sitting in Sebring Florida watching the ALMS open test - Danica is driving so my priorities have shifted :D Have a nice set up here for internet connections, scanners, and phones - I have looked at this report but cannot print it as I have no printer but called home to ask my wife to print it out before the link disappears.

As to Michelle's clothes - they don't sound like sleeping clothes to me, definitely not a hooded sweatshirt top. One has to wonder what the friend said Michelle was dressed in while they were watching tv. I also wonder if she may have wore this sweat shirt outside if she went to the car when her friend left for the evening? I noted no mention of shoes or socks in the clothing list. Will study about it. Gotta go for now - back later.

RC

[close_enough]

If I am looking at it right, the scratches on her neck go up and down - makes me think it WAS her fingernails, trying to get his hands off her neck, reaching up and trying to get under his hands...?

This gets worse the more I think about it...

you're right...they DO go up & down...
hmmm, they probably are MY's ....oh my:(
whew...

[close_enough]

Sorry Close - I am sitting in Sebring Florida watching the ALMS open test - Danica is driving so my priorities have shifted :D Have a nice set up here for internet connections, scanners, and phones - I have looked at this report but cannot print it as I have no printer but called home to ask my wife to print it out before the link disappears.

As to Michelle's clothes - they don't sound like sleeping clothes to me, definitely not a hooded sweatshirt top. One has to wonder what the friend said Michelle was dressed in while they were watching tv. I also wonder if she may have wore this sweat shirt outside if she went to the car when her friend left for the evening? I noted no mention of shoes or socks in the clothing list. Will study about it. Gotta go for now - back later.

RC

lol @priorities have shifted :p

yeah, nothing about shoes or socks...
...yes yes....the friend has told LE what Michelle had on that night, for sure.....lots to think about today....

i'd print it, but i got a new computer & can't hook my old printer up to it :banghead:

[panthera]

you're right...they DO go up & down...
hmmm, they probably are MY's ....oh my:(
whew...I re-read it too and that's the only thing that makes any sense. :(

[close_enough]

Yes and since we don't know the length of Jason's nails, but it just struck me that the description almost sounded like it could be a woman who did it ~ although we have no evidence of that. And I'd still think that the perp would have had some injuries.

i do too, Panthera....

[close_enough]

this is going to sound gross, but the autopsy states "the stomach contains 70 gms of thick partially digested food"......

that helps to determine TOD ..... does it depend on what kind of food it is??

[packerdog]

this is going to sound gross, but the autopsy states "the stomach contains 70 gms of thick partially digested food"......

that helps to determine TOD ..... does it depend on what kind of food it is??



Yes they can tell what kind of food she ate and when. Remember in the JB Ramsey case, they knew she ate pinapple and what kind, right down to the rind.

[panthera]

this is going to sound gross, but the autopsy states "the stomach contains 70 gms of thick partially digested food"......

that helps to determine TOD ..... does it depend on what kind of food it is??Yes certain types of food take longer to digest than others and the presence of the partially digested food could aid in making a better estimation as to her TOD. Being she was still dressed in what doesn't appear to be nightclothes, I'd guess this happened before she went to bed so maybe midnight at the latest?

[close_enough]

right packerdog...the pineapple....

i'm with you panthera...i have to think this happened before she went to bed...hmmm

[close_enough]

was going over the diagrams again...21 total lacerations to her head...13 on the back, & 8 to the left side....all of them ranging anywhere from 1/2" to 4 1/2" in length....

eta to correct...

[close_enough]

oh my...i have to take a break from this.....

[panthera]

was going over the diagrams again...21 total lacerations to her head...13 on the back, & 8 to the left side....all of them ranging anywhere from 1/2" to 4 1/2" in length....

eta to correct...Seems she was already disabled, on the floor, face down when those blows were struck.

[Cypros]

Thanks, close-enough.

So, she wasn't undressed for bed yet or did she normally wear a zipped sweatshirt, t-shirt, and pants to bed? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Some evidence of manual strangulation.

Numerous defense wounds on her hands.

Wow, she must have put up a big fight for her life.

The single hair stuck in blood on her left hand sounds promising. A defense attorney will call it innocent transfer if it belongs to Jason, though.

I am trying to figure out why her clothing makes people rethink the time of death. Sounds like she was wearing something very comfortable. I wear sweats ALL the time and sometimes sleep in them. The zipped up sweatshirt may have been to keep cozy on a November evening or maybe she had let the dog out into the yard and so had the jacket on. I don't see any reason why her clothing works against the late night timing for the murder.

[happy2bn10ec]

I am just wondering if JY and his family have read this yet? Wonder if it might make a few family members rethink their support of him. I don't see how they could believe a stranger could have done this. Too much rage and overkill.

I REALLY wish I hadn't read the autopsy report now.

[LvsAMystry]

Seems she was already disabled, on the floor, face down when those blows were struck.

This is what interests me, in what position was she when hit, facing her attacker or was she hit while down or from behind. The reason this interests me is that it appears almost all of the hits were on her left side, with some of them being centered in the back, those ones being certain from behind. But the ones on the left, I think they speak as to whether the perp is right or left-handed. I agree with the person who earlier said it could have been a fireplace poker. Whatever it was, it was something like that and it sound like it was swung. If she was facedown or hit from behind, a right handed swing, like the swing of a batter, would be to the right and hit her on the left. But if she were facing her attacker, then the same right handed swing would have hit the right side, which means it would have had to have been a left handed swing from that position to get the left side.

So, depending on her position when hit, it changes

[Cypros]

This is what interests me, in what position was she when hit, facing her attacker or was she hit while down or from behind. The reason this interests me is that it appears almost all of the hits were on her left side, with some of them being centered in the back, those ones being certain from behind. But the ones on the left, I think they speak as to whether the perp is right or left-handed. I agree with the person who earlier said it could have been a fireplace poker. Whatever it was, it was something like that and it sound like it was swung. If she was facedown or hit from behind, a right handed swing, like the swing of a batter, would be to the right and hit her on the left. But if she were facing her attacker, then the same right handed swing would have hit the right side, which means it would have had to have been a left handed swing from that position to get the left side.

So, depending on her position when hit, it changes

???? Don't you mean it the other way around? If MY was facing her attacker and he/she was swinging at her with something in his/her right hand that would leave lacerations on MY's left side. It is likely that the details of the wounds show the direction of the hits so they can tell if she was facing toward or away from the attacker.

[packerdog]

Like I said before I think it was a fireplace poker to leave those kinds of marks to her head. I don't think it was a hammer. I think it was a long object and that he swung it at her. I wonder if they can tell what blows came first. He might have tried to strangle her first, which would be hard to do with her fighting back the way she did. She was a cheerleader remember, she probably had alot of strengh in her arms and hands to get him off her neck.

[concernedperson]

It sounds like she was trying to get his hands off of her neck and scratched herself trying to do so. Then she could have been winded from attempted strangulation and reached around to the back of her head trying to prevent blows and that is why she doesn't have as much bruising on the inside of her hands. Also, seems she was attacked initially lying on her right side.

The blows were very severe to the back of her head and would have caused her teeth to become loose and ultimately dislodged. This kind of blunt force would have to had come from a fireplace poke/golf club or there would have been a great deal of splintering found inside her skull. The autopsy doesn't mention any foreign matter.

I believe she was close to death after the first few blows to the back of her head. Or semi-conscience as her hands were bruised and not fractured.

She fought hard but there was a monster upon her and there was no stopping him. No, I don't think a woman could carry this off. Powerful swings to cause that much lacerating of the skull. B**tard.

[packerdog]

I agree with you concernedperson. No wonder they found a piece of her tooth, it sounds like they shattered. I just can't imagine the pain she went through. It seems that these husband killers strike them in the head and face.

[WhiteWolf]

I am trying to figure out why her clothing makes people rethink the time of death. Sounds like she was wearing something very comfortable. I wear sweats ALL the time and sometimes sleep in them. The zipped up sweatshirt may have been to keep cozy on a November evening or maybe she had let the dog out into the yard and so had the jacket on. I don't see any reason why her clothing works against the late night timing for the murder.


Cypros, I'm adding the partially digested food in her stomach to my thinking about MY being killed closer to midnight than say between 3-6am. Rigormortise was absent at the time of MY's autopsy so that moved MY's death closer to midnight (to maybe 2am latest). I suppose she could have worn those closes to bed, but I still think MY died closer to midnight.

[panthera]

???? Don't you mean it the other way around? If MY was facing her attacker and he/she was swinging at her with something in his/her right hand that would leave lacerations on MY's left side. It is likely that the details of the wounds show the direction of the hits so they can tell if she was facing toward or away from the attacker.I agree with you. If she was facing the perp and he was right-handed swinging this object would've hit her on the left side which could've knocked her to the floor, falling face down he continued to strike the back of her head. Something like a fireplace poker would definitely cause a great deal of damage to her skull and not leave any residue in her wounds.

[close_enough]

I am trying to figure out why her clothing makes people rethink the time of death. Sounds like she was wearing something very comfortable. I wear sweats ALL the time and sometimes sleep in them. The zipped up sweatshirt may have been to keep cozy on a November evening or maybe she had let the dog out into the yard and so had the jacket on. I don't see any reason why her clothing works against the late night timing for the murder.

i don't think the clothing really works against her being killed late night, but it DID give me reason to pause & think about it.....people are all so different...i can't sleep in sweats of any kind...just too hot, even in the winter...i don't know too many people that sleep in sweat pants, a t-shirt, & a hooded sweatshirt...actually, i don't know anyone that sleeps in a hooded sweatshirt...

either way, it's interesting that a lot of the blows were to her left side....

"1/4 inch laceration on the left thumb, surrounded by confluent bruising occupying much of the posterier surface of the left hand, the left fingers, & small amount of the left forearm"......

sounds like she was hit really hard on her left hand, the left mandible, & all the other lacerations on the left side of her head (8 of them).....at some point, "the perp" had better access to her left side.....even the left arm was hit & left a 1" crescent abrasion...."it was surrounded by poorly defined bruising, but may represent as many as 3 or 4 discrete blows"...it also says that area had no underlying significant tissue damage.....a LOT was done to the left side of her body......i'm just wondering if all of these blows were done while she was down on the floor, maybe trying to curl up & guard her head with her hand??.....

[close_enough]

Cypros, I'm adding the partially digested food in her stomach to my thinking about MY being killed closer to midnight than say between 3-6am. Rigormortise was absent at the time of MY's autopsy so that moved MY's death closer to midnight (to maybe 2am latest). I suppose she could have worn those closes to bed, but I still think MY died closer to midnight.

ya know, i had always figured TOD would be betw 1 & 3 am, but i'm really starting to think you're right, WW.....she may very well have been killed more around the midnight area......this does make more sense, imo.....the partially digested food & all....hmmm

[close_enough]

Seems she was already disabled, on the floor, face down when those blows were struck.

right panthera...that's what it sounds like to me also...or she was disabled, on the floor, for a LOT of them...

[close_enough]

It sounds like she was trying to get his hands off of her neck and scratched herself trying to do so. Then she could have been winded from attempted strangulation and reached around to the back of her head trying to prevent blows and that is why she doesn't have as much bruising on the inside of her hands. Also, seems she was attacked initially lying on her right side.

The blows were very severe to the back of her head and would have caused her teeth to become loose and ultimately dislodged. This kind of blunt force would have to had come from a fireplace poke/golf club or there would have been a great deal of splintering found inside her skull. The autopsy doesn't mention any foreign matter.

I believe she was close to death after the first few blows to the back of her head. Or semi-conscience as her hands were bruised and not fractured.

She fought hard but there was a monster upon her and there was no stopping him. No, I don't think a woman could carry this off. Powerful swings to cause that much lacerating of the skull. B**tard.

just awful, huh CP? :(
....no, i don't think a woman did this either....

[close_enough]

i would imagine either Greta or NG will have something about this on tonight....maybe some kind of 'expert' can give us (well, me) a hand at understanding some of it.....

[LvsAMystry]

???? Don't you mean it the other way around? If MY was facing her attacker and he/she was swinging at her with something in his/her right hand that would leave lacerations on MY's left side. It is likely that the details of the wounds show the direction of the hits so they can tell if she was facing toward or away from the attacker.


Oh geez, of course you're right. In overthinking my explanation, I confused even myself. Sorry about that!

So, if she were facing her attacker, it would seem the hits on her left side would have come from the attackers right. If she were facedown or hit from behind on her left side, it would seem the hits were caused from her attackers left. I wonder if they'll ever provide details so we know in what position she was in.

[panthera]

i would imagine either Greta or NG will have something about this on tonight....maybe some kind of 'expert' can give us (well, me) a hand at understanding some of it.....That would help! I'm thinking that the perp could've gotten one good blow to her left side, knocked her down, perhaps falling on her right side at an angle (like not completely on her side so the back of her head would also be exposed) or she moved as he continued to swing at her. So much rage and overkill here it is just :furious:

[concernedperson]

That would help! I'm thinking that the perp could've gotten one good blow to her left side, knocked her down, perhaps falling on her right side at an angle (like not completely on her side so the back of her head would also be exposed) or she moved as he continued to swing at her. So much rage and overkill here it is just :furious:

Yes, she had a lot of injury to her left side and what you describe is probably what happened. Then the full overkill was done when she was face down. Do you realize how much force would have to happen to cause the size of her fractures? Unfreakingimaginable.

[jilly]

Hi Close! - just getting here - of course I have to work the day there's news!!

I agree with you on the hooded sweatshirt - I don't know anyone either.

After reading everything here I'm thinking the same thing - murder occured around midnite. :( She must have been screaming. Cassidy obviously heard her. :( Too bad someone in the neighborhood didn't although I remember the houses in that neighborhood were spaced.

So what does this do to the timeline? He left at 7pm or before maybe, got to the hotel & checked in and went back? I think that's doable, don't you?

[jilly]

Do you realize how much force would have to happen to cause the size of her fractures? Unfreakingimaginable.

This is heartbreaking! :(

[jilly]

yeah....a cut...

odd...A CUT
....maybe some glass from the lamp??...if she were trying to get a lamp from him??

Maybe the wedding picture?

[close_enough]

I am just wondering if JY and his family have read this yet? Wonder if it might make a few family members rethink their support of him. I don't see how they could believe a stranger could have done this. Too much rage and overkill.

I REALLY wish I hadn't read the autopsy report now.

i would imagine someone in the Young family has read this report....to hit her 21 times & that's not including other abrasions, lacerations etc...like one to her right wrist, the one to her upper left arm....someone over at ctv said this gives a whole new meaning to the words "beaten to death", & i agree....

[strach304]

I agree with WW on the nails. I can only go by my own personal experience that led me to the conclusion in the first place that she was strangled first after learning there were bruises on her neck at the funeral. It isn't so easy to strangle a formidable opponent. My guess is a tiffany lamp because it would've been within reach for her as a weapon of defense from the original attack, then of course became the murder weapon. A tiffany style lamp has both components, glass and cast iron.

I have a man figured for this one not just because of the injuries showing substantial force but also because of the attempted strangulation. If I remember correctly from the LP case the mitochondrial dna on the hair isn't specific to one exact person so I don't know if they could prove it was Jason's rather than Cassidy's?

[close_enough]

Hi Close! - just getting here - of course I have to work the day there's news!!

I agree with you on the hooded sweatshirt - I don't know anyone either.

After reading everything here I'm thinking the same thing - murder occured around midnite. :( She must have been screaming. Cassidy obviously heard her. :( Too bad someone in the neighborhood didn't although I remember the houses in that neighborhood were spaced.

So what does this do to the timeline? He left at 7pm or before maybe, got to the hotel & checked in and went back? I think that's doable, don't you?

hey jilly!...wondered where you were...can ya believe it???...i was hem hawing around, reading over at ctv...(nothing was really 'going on' here) then BAM, out of the blue the name "From Raleigh" posted the WRAL link about the autopsy....i swiftly copied it & 'ran' back here.....

gosh, the timeline :waitasec:
....i just don't know....we get a lot of info, then we're still left w/so many questions....we NEED to know what time he left for his 'meeting'....we need to know what Michelle's girlfriend said Michelle was wearing that night...we need to know if there really was an 11 pm phone call...(i tend to think there was)......i just don't know...still absorbing all this autopsy stuff here....interesting, but so sad:(

[jilly]

yeah....a cut...

odd...A CUT
....maybe some glass from the lamp??...if she were trying to get a lamp from him??

Maybe the wedding picture?

[panthera]

Hi Close! - just getting here - of course I have to work the day there's news!!

I agree with you on the hooded sweatshirt - I don't know anyone either.

After reading everything here I'm thinking the same thing - murder occured around midnite. :( She must have been screaming. Cassidy obviously heard her. :( Too bad someone in the neighborhood didn't although I remember the houses in that neighborhood were spaced.

So what does this do to the timeline? He left at 7pm or before maybe, got to the hotel & checked in and went back? I think that's doable, don't you?I know ~ what timing for you! The clothing doesn't sound at all to me like something she would've worn to sleep in bed ~ especially black pants. The timeline would depend on what time he actually left the house and where this hotel is he checked into. But it's looking to me to be closer to midnight with the clothing and partially digested food.

[strach304]

You really can't scream when you're being strangled and then she grabs something hits attacker in the head or face which provides only very temporary relief till they instantly grab said object (natural reaction) and start whacking you in the head and face. That of course would be when her arms and hands were used to protect herself for however many blows she could withstand before losing consciousness. All of which can happen so fast it's over before you know it.

[close_enough]

Maybe the wedding picture?

could be jilly.....from reading the autopsy, it SEEMS like whatever weapon was used, is what was used to hit her hand though...."blunt force injury to the extremities has resulted in laceration of the left thumb"......it goes on to say this injury bruised the fingers on the left hand, on up to a small part of the forearm too.....i just don't know...

[close_enough]

I know ~ what timing for you! The clothing doesn't sound at all to me like something she would've worn to sleep in bed ~ especially black pants. The timeline would depend on what time he actually left the house and where this hotel is he checked into. But it's looking to me to be closer to midnight with the clothing and partially digested food.

you know you're right panthera....the report doesn't state she had sweat pants on...it states the hooded sweatshirt, but regarding the pants, it only states "black pants".....& then of course she had a t-shirt on .... just doesn't sound like something she was wearing while sleeping, imo....

[close_enough]

Yes, she had a lot of injury to her left side and what you describe is probably what happened. Then the full overkill was done when she was face down. Do you realize how much force would have to happen to cause the size of her fractures? Unfreakingimaginable.

i know, CP...a LOT of force....he beat the livin daylights out of her head :mad:

[panthera]

My guess is a tiffany lamp because it would've been within reach for her as a weapon of defense from the original attack, then of course became the murder weapon. A tiffany style lamp has both components, glass and cast iron.
Wouldn't the glass part of it break, and if so I wonder if there was any glass found at the scene?

NG is talking about Michael Devlin tonight.

[panthera]

you know you're right panthera....the report doesn't state she had sweat pants on...it states the hooded sweatshirt, but regarding the pants, it only states "black pants".....& then of course she had a t-shirt on .... just doesn't sound like something she was wearing while sleeping, imo....yes, close enough, I can't imagine wearing black pants around blankets and bedding! :)

[close_enough]

You really can't scream when you're being strangled and then she grabs something hits attacker in the head or face which provides only very temporary relief till they instantly grab said object (natural reaction) and start whacking you in the head and face. That of course would be when her arms and hands were used to protect herself for however many blows she could withstand before losing consciousness. All of which can happen so fast it's over before you know it.

i don't know strach...you could be right, cause i sure can't imagine it happening, but i tend to think jilly is right...i think this struggle caused a lot of noise...i think Michelle would have been yelling "stop" or something at some point.....i think there was enough noise made that it woke Cassidy up....

[LvsAMystry]

Yes, she had a lot of injury to her left side and what you describe is probably what happened. Then the full overkill was done when she was face down. Do you realize how much force would have to happen to cause the size of her fractures? Unfreakingimaginable.

It is unbearable to read that report and see what sort of force would have caused damage such as that. So much rage you have to wonder how it was hidden so well.

[close_enough]

Wouldn't the glass part of it break, and if so I wonder if there was any glass found at the scene?

NG is talking about Michael Devlin tonight.

hmmm, if someone with some strength picked up one of my tiffany lamps & hit me in the head, it would definately put me on the floor...i would think, anyway.....mine aren't REAL big, but they're sturdy for sure...the glass is thick too, along with the cast iron .....we know that LE took a lamp as evidence...it had blood on it right??.....it wasn't mentioned that the lamp was broken though, did it???....or would they necessarily HAVE to put that much info in the warrant....if she was beaten with a standard size nightstand lamp, i would think the lamp would be awfully beat up too....

[concernedperson]

I agree with all who said she wasn't dressed for bed. Most pregnant people are warm natured and a hooded sweatshirt would be a lot around your upper body.

I think she had a bite to eat with her friend watching Grey's Anatomy and this food wasn't fully digested. If the show came on around 10 eastern then at midnight it would be thickened but not digested. I know about vomit (daughter had cancer and chemo for years) and the different stages of digestion.

Also, if and I say IF he called at 11 pm then she would more than likely be upset or pondering the conversation. Not ready to go to sleep as I am sure it was an upsetting phone call. Given the financial aspects and if she knew, his dalliances.

[panthera]

hmmm, if someone with some strength picked up one of my tiffany lamps & hit me in the head, it would definately put me on the floor...i would think, anyway.....mine aren't REAL big, but they're sturdy for sure...the glass is thick too, along with the cast iron .....we know that LE took a lamp as evidence...it had blood on it right??.....it wasn't mentioned that the lamp was broken though, did it???....or would they necessarily HAVE to put that much info in the warrant....if she was beaten with a standard size nightstand lamp, i would think the lamp would be awfully beat up too....That's what I'm wondering since I'd think some part of the shade part of the lamp would be broken, including the light bulb. :waitasec:

[concernedperson]

hmmm, if someone with some strength picked up one of my tiffany lamps & hit me in the head, it would definately put me on the floor...i would think, anyway.....mine aren't REAL big, but they're sturdy for sure...the glass is thick too, along with the cast iron .....we know that LE took a lamp as evidence...it had blood on it right??.....it wasn't mentioned that the lamp was broken though, did it???....or would they necessarily HAVE to put that much info in the warrant....if she was beaten with a standard size nightstand lamp, i would think the lamp would be awfully beat up too....

I am going back and look at the fractures. If I remember they look elongated.

[PrayersForMaura]

Raleigh — Michelle Young was beaten numerous times and suffered a fractured skull when she was killed in early November, according to the autopsy report, which was released Monday.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175401/

figured this will call for a thread of it's own.....
How awful. Poor Michelle fought for her dear life and that of her unborn son.
I pray the monster who did this has nightmares every night even after he is arrested and put to death for these brutal, wasteful murders.

[panthera]

How awful. Poor Michelle fought for her dear life and that of her unborn son.
I pray the monster who did this has nightmares every night even after he is arrested and put to death for these brutal, wasteful murders.The saddest part is the perp will only be charged with one murder and likely not receive the DP. :mad:

[close_enough]

on the same link, there's a video also...it pretty much states the same thing as what the report does, but it's got an interview with the Sheriff....interesting, he brings up the possibility of Cassidy seeing what happened.....heck, i've always thought that HE thought Cassidy saw something, from one of his first comments...he was VERY angry about the fact that Cassidy was in the house alone....plus he's heard the 911 call in it's entirety......

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175401/

[close_enough]

I am going back and look at the fractures. If I remember they look elongated.

i went back & looked also CP....these don't look quite like the 'injuries' that Kathleen Peterson had on the back of her head....these don't appear to be nearly as elongated as KP's were.....the one's here on MY seem almost crescent shaped, & then some don't.....hmmm

eta...does anyone else see the crescent shape in some of these injuries??...or is it just me?

i know one on the arm was noted "crescent" in the report....it was 1" long

[jilly]

I agree with WW on the nails. I can only go by my own personal experience that led me to the conclusion in the first place that she was strangled first after learning there were bruises on her neck at the funeral. It isn't so easy to strangle a formidable opponent. My guess is a tiffany lamp because it would've been within reach for her as a weapon of defense from the original attack, then of course became the murder weapon. A tiffany style lamp has both components, glass and cast iron.

I have a man figured for this one not just because of the injuries showing substantial force but also because of the attempted strangulation. If I remember correctly from the LP case the mitochondrial dna on the hair isn't specific to one exact person so I don't know if they could prove it was Jason's rather than Cassidy's?

Another similarity to the Peterson case - tiffany lamp. Ohhh Geez.
I can remember JY having to give a sample of his pubic hair - how do you figure this fits in Strach?

[concernedperson]

One of the fractures has a strong resemblance to the top part of a fireplace poke. The rest are bits and pieces with elongated parts. This is just horrible.

[jilly]

I know ~ what timing for you! The clothing doesn't sound at all to me like something she would've worn to sleep in bed ~ especially black pants. The timeline would depend on what time he actually left the house and where this hotel is he checked into. But it's looking to me to be closer to midnight with the clothing and partially digested food.

How long does it take food to digest completely, do you know?
o/t
I only work 2 days a weeks too! :banghead:

[jilly]

could be jilly.....from reading the autopsy, it SEEMS like whatever weapon was used, is what was used to hit her hand though...."blunt force injury to the extremities has resulted in laceration of the left thumb"......it goes on to say this injury bruised the fingers on the left hand, on up to a small part of the forearm too.....i just don't know...

You're right - I see that from the AR. Photos probably just had blood on them.

[LvsAMystry]

i went back & looked also CP....these don't look quite like the 'injuries' that Kathleen Peterson had on the back of her head....these don't appear to be nearly as elongated as KP's were.....the one's here on MY seem almost crescent shaped, & then some don't.....hmmm

eta...does anyone else see the crescent shape in some of these injuries??...or is it just me?

i know one on the arm was noted "crescent" in the report....it was 1" long


I see the crescent shape also. I went back and looked to see if they are all in same direction, but oddly they aren't. I thought the crescent shape would make perfect sense if it were possibly from a lamp base, a round lamp base. But with the crescents presenting in opposing directions I'm not sure.

[LvsAMystry]

Oh wait, I just had a thought. A fireplace poker often has that little hook or poker at the top. Depending on the angle of the blow, that piece hitting would look like a crescent and cause lacerations elsewhere like the thumb.

[DonnaB]

I have a man figured for this one not just because of the injuries showing substantial force but also because of the attempted strangulation. If I remember correctly from the LP case the mitochondrial dna on the hair isn't specific to one exact person so I don't know if they could prove it was Jason's rather than Cassidy's?

Mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother, so Jason and Cassidy should have very different mtDNA. Wikipedia has an article that may help explain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA


Donna B. in ..... Raleigh, NC (no kidding, y'all)

[close_enough]

How long does it take food to digest completely, do you know?
o/t
I only work 2 days a weeks too! :banghead:

i don't know :banghead:

wish there was some kind of 'expert' here at WS!!!!
...70 gms of thick partially digested food...we don't even know what kind of food it was, & i've been told here, that digestion would depend on the type of food it was.....ugh.....

[concernedperson]

I see the crescent shape also. I went back and looked to see if they are all in same direction, but oddly they aren't. I thought the crescent shape would make perfect sense if it were possibly from a lamp base, a round lamp base. But with the crescents presenting in opposing directions I'm not sure.

It truly looks like the top part of a fireplace poke. Almost a fleur de lis look. There was one that was distinct and the others were broken. Sorry for harping on this but that it was it looks like.

[panthera]

How long does it take food to digest completely, do you know?
o/t
I only work 2 days a weeks too! :banghead:It would depend on the food, for example meat takes longer to digest than something 'light'.

[concernedperson]

i don't know :banghead:

wish there was some kind of 'expert' here at WS!!!!
...70 gms of thick partially digested food...we don't even know what kind of food it was, & i've been told here, that digestion would depend on the type of food it was.....ugh.....

It also depends on the person. But, thick partially digested food indicates a couple of hours or whole pieces of recently swallowed food would be present. Sorry for the graphics but it is what it is.

[close_enough]

Oh wait, I just had a thought. A fireplace poker often has that little hook or poker at the top. Depending on the angle of the blow, that piece hitting would look like a crescent and cause lacerations elsewhere like the thumb.

well, we know they had a fireplace in the house....it's sure possible that a poker was used then, huh?

[panthera]

One of the fractures has a strong resemblance to the top part of a fireplace poke. The rest are bits and pieces with elongated parts. This is just horrible.I'm kind of seeing that also. Did they have a fireplace in the master bedroom?

[close_enough]

It also depends on the person. But, thick partially digested food indicates a couple of hours or whole pieces of recently swallowed food would be present. Sorry for the graphics but it is what it is.

hmmm, thanks CP......

[DonnaB]

i know, CP...a LOT of force....he beat the livin daylights out of her head :mad:

In one of the early articles on wral.com, a profiler said that when a woman is beaten in the head and face to the point where she is unrecognizable or nearly so, the perpetrator is almost always someone who knew her and was very close to her. The mutilation of the face is the perpetrator's way of protecting his own psyche from admitting what he's done - he destroys her face, thus destroying her as an individual human, and he sees only that he has killed "it".

I'll post the link if I find it again. Quite an interesting theory.



Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

[close_enough]

I'm kind of seeing that also. Did they have a fireplace in the master bedroom?

i THINK 'we' all came to the conclusion that there was a fireplace downstairs in the living room, to the left of the house (if you're facing the house)....not sure how this was determined though....i know the chimney comes out on the left side of the house...IMO, i would think a house with one fireplace, it would be in the living room, not in a bedroom....jmo

he could have simply walked in the living room, picked it up & proceeded up the stairs with it....

[close_enough]

welcome DonnaB:)

[LvsAMystry]

well, we know they had a fireplace in the house....it's sure possible that a poker was used then, huh?

Most definitely. I also think it has the right weight and would be grippable enough for the force that was obviously used in this. Although the lamp seems to make sense in some respects, I'd think it'd be hard to get the kind of grip needed to deliver blows like that.

OTOH, would the perp have gotten the poker first? If so, why not just use it instead of attempting to strangle first as it seems happened.

[PrayersForMaura]

i don't think the clothing really works against her being killed late night, but it DID give me reason to pause & think about it.....people are all so different...i can't sleep in sweats of any kind...just too hot, even in the winter...i don't know too many people that sleep in sweat pants, a t-shirt, & a hooded sweatshirt...actually, i don't know anyone that sleeps in a hooded sweatshirt...


I sleep in a sweatshirt quite often in the fall and winter months. Motly non-hooded, but I slept in a hooded sweatshirt the other night because I fell asleep watching a movie.

Some people just get cold easily and like to sleep in warmer clothes :)

[close_enough]

Most definitely. I also think it has the right weight and would be grippable enough for the force that was obviously used in this. Although the lamp seems to make sense in some respects, I'd think it'd be hard to get the kind of grip needed to deliver blows like that.

OTOH, would the perp have gotten the poker first? If so, why not just use it instead of attempting to strangle first as it seems happened.

good point......thinking

[panthera]

In one of the early articles on wral.com, a profiler said that when a woman is beaten in the head and face to the point where she is unrecognizable or nearly so, the perpetrator is almost always someone who knew her and was very close to her. The mutilation of the face is the perpetrator's way of protecting his own psyche from admitting what he's done - he destroys her face, thus destroying her as an individual human, and he sees only that he has killed "it".

I'll post the link if I find it again. Quite an interesting theory.



Donna B. in Raleigh, NCScott Dyleski beat Pamela Vitale to death, with a rock it was assumed by the State. Both her murder and Michelle's have similiar characteristics, yet Dyleski was a 16-year old neighbor, involved in a credit card fraud scheme, said to be using drugs, hero-worshipped serial killers and the like. How would that murder fit into the profile you referenced, I wonder?

[concernedperson]

i THINK 'we' all came to the conclusion that there was a fireplace downstairs in the living room, to the left of the house (if you're facing the house)....not sure how this was determined though....i know the chimney comes out on the left side of the house...IMO, i would think a house with one fireplace, it would be in the living room, not in a bedroom....jmo

he could have simply walked in the living room, picked it up & proceeded up the stairs with it....

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

[panthera]

i THINK 'we' all came to the conclusion that there was a fireplace downstairs in the living room, to the left of the house (if you're facing the house)....not sure how this was determined though....i know the chimney comes out on the left side of the house...IMO, i would think a house with one fireplace, it would be in the living room, not in a bedroom....jmo

he could have simply walked in the living room, picked it up & proceeded up the stairs with it....Some two story homes have one upstairs also, and the reason I asked is that if he picked up the poker downstairs, why the manual strangulation if he had a weapon in his hand?

[close_enough]

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

hmmm, could be CP...could be!

we know at some point he tried to strangle her, hmmmm

[close_enough]

Some two story homes have one upstairs also, and the reason I asked is that if he picked up the poker downstairs, why the manual strangulation if he had a weapon in his hand?

right panthera....thinking here....

ok, i THINK early on there was a layout of the home where it was stated "one fireplace", but i could be wrong....gosh, that was in the first couple of threads, so i have no idea where to find it now....ugh

[panthera]

I sleep in a sweatshirt quite often in the fall and winter months. Motly non-hooded, but I slept in a hooded sweatshirt the other night because I fell asleep watching a movie.

Some people just get cold easily and like to sleep in warmer clothes :)Oh I do too especially in the winter, but the black pants ?? (And more deja vu of Laci :doh: )

[LvsAMystry]

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.

[close_enough]

Or after attempted strangulation when she was winded and trying to breathe, walked down and pick it up. Caught her blindsided while she was lying on her right side and hit her hard on her left side.

Natural movement would be to roll over and out of the way of the blow.

i'm starting to kind of see it this way....maybe she passed out; didn't die; he knew she was still breathing, THEN he went downstairs & got the weapon???...i don't know though...seems that woudn't make sense..if she was passed out, that would have been the 'perfect' time to keep strangling her, right??

ugh....almost seems like the weapon had to be something that was in the bedroom...something that was used after strangling didn't work.....

i'm bumfuzzled....

[LvsAMystry]

Some two story homes have one upstairs also, and the reason I asked is that if he picked up the poker downstairs, why the manual strangulation if he had a weapon in his hand?

Exactly what I wondered above also.

[jilly]

right panthera....thinking here....

ok, i THINK early on there was a layout of the home where it was stated "one fireplace", but i could be wrong....gosh, that was in the first couple of threads, so i have no idea where to find it now....ugh

Yes - I think I actually asked you and you looked up the floor plans or whatever which stated one fireplace.

[PrayersForMaura]

In one of the early articles on wral.com, a profiler said that when a woman is beaten in the head and face to the point where she is unrecognizable or nearly so, the perpetrator is almost always someone who knew her and was very close to her. The mutilation of the face is the perpetrator's way of protecting his own psyche from admitting what he's done - he destroys her face, thus destroying her as an individual human, and he sees only that he has killed "it".

I'll post the link if I find it again. Quite an interesting theory.



Donna B. in Raleigh, NC
I remember reading something similar, too. There was another murder not too long ago with a profile similar to this. It as in NC, too. The man was still living with his wife, although they were separated. He was a professor. Their daughter was at school when the husband attacked his estranged wife. He wound up confessing to murdering her by beating her from behind and hen in the face while she was wrapping presents. The profiler said it was a hate-filled murder with the perpetrator intentionally destroying the victim's face...
It's in a thread in the "crimes in the news" forum.

[panthera]

right panthera....thinking here....

ok, i THINK early on there was a layout of the home where it was stated "one fireplace", but i could be wrong....gosh, that was in the first couple of threads, so i have no idea where to find it now....ughI wouldn't know where to look now either! The house I grew up in had one chimney with a downstairs and upstairs fireplace, so if there was one in the bedroom he could've grabbed the poker when his attempts at strangling her failed with her fighting him off. Just thinking <shrug>

[close_enough]

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.

i tend to think that could have happened Lvs...he didn't expect such a fight/struggle to kill her & it made him 'see red' so to speak....

your other scenario sounds plausible to me too......yeah, a bit more detail is what we need....i imagine more is coming soon...

[jilly]

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.

That's another good point! You're really sleuthing here Lvs! :clap:

[close_enough]

Yes - I think I actually asked you and you looked up the floor plans or whatever which stated one fireplace.

yeah, it was posted one night ....either RC or Otto posted this layout of the home...just can't remember....i'm going to look for a minute or so; see if i can find it...

[panthera]

Seems non-rageful even though thats not a word. There is a difference in the killer who strangles and an enraged beating I think. Mayhe her fight kicked the rage in I don't know. Or, I wonder if she heard something while still downstairs and grabbed the poker in defense while immediately going upstairs to be close to her baby and to possibly make emergency call if needed. Maybe she had the poker and that was not supposed to happen. That would enrage this carefully planned scenario I'd think. All speculation of course, I wish there were just a bit more details.This is where I wonder if ~ Jason was moving out, and/or he called her at 11pm and if so, did they argue and was Michelle in fear he might return and harm her? And maybe she didn't want to get into bed so might have laid down on top of the bed~ does anyone remember if the bed had looked slept in?

[DonnaB]

I wouldn't know where to look now either!

One fireplace according to the Wake County tax assessor.

http://msweb01.co.wake.nc.us/realestate/Account.asp?id=0156150&stype=owner&owner=young%2C+jason&spg=1

The long way to get there is
http://www.wakegov.com
Then click on
TAX, PROPERTY, AND MAPS in the top section

This takes you to http://www.wakegov.com/tax/default.htm, the page that links to searches of real estate records.

When you go to the search page, you can search by address, or by name. If you search for "Young, Jason," you will see the listings for both properties owned by Jason and Michelle in this county.



OT - Thanks, Close! Whereabouts in TN? I have family from one end of the state to the other. :)


Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

[raisincharlie]

Mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother, so Jason and Cassidy should have very different mtDNA. Wikipedia has an article that may help explain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA


Donna B. in ..... Raleigh, NC (no kidding, y'all)
Thank you Donna - as I recall from the LP case - the hair in the boat was matched to Sharon Rocha - was pretty sure it would trace back to the mother. So appreciate the link verifying that.

[DonnaB]

Scott Dyleski beat Pamela Vitale to death, with a rock it was assumed by the State. Both her murder and Michelle's have similiar characteristics, yet Dyleski was a 16-year old neighbor, involved in a credit card fraud scheme, said to be using drugs, hero-worshipped serial killers and the like. How would that murder fit into the profile you referenced, I wonder?

I will admit that I haven't a clue, Panthera. I haven't found that link yet - looked on WRAL's archive re: MY's murder, but no luck. Possibly it was referenced in Greta's blog. I'll keep looking.




Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

[close_enough]

HEY, i see RC's light on...maybe he can find that layout of the house again????

[close_enough]

One fireplace according to the Wake County tax assessor.

http://msweb01.co.wake.nc.us/realestate/Account.asp?id=0156150&stype=owner&owner=young%2C+jason&spg=1

The long way to get there is
http://www.wakegov.com
Then click on
TAX, PROPERTY, AND MAPS in the top section

This takes you to http://www.wakegov.com/tax/default.htm, the page that links to searches of real estate records.

When you go to the search page, you can search by address, or by name. If you search for "Young, Jason," you will see the listings for both properties owned by Jason and Michelle in this county.



OT - Thanks, Close! Whereabouts in TN? I have family from one end of the state to the other. :)


Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

oops...thanks DonnaB:)

eta....middle TN, Nashville

[close_enough]

http://msweb01.co.wake.nc.us/realestate/Building.asp?id=0156150&stype=owner&owner=young%2C+jason&spg=1&cd=01&loc=5108++BIRCHLEAF+DR&des=LO34+ENCHANTED+OAKS+SC2+86%2D1150+PH1&pin=0781818454

[DonnaB]

eta....middle TN, Nashville
I was just there 2 weeks ago for a week! Country western dance world championships held at the Opryland Hotel from Jan. 1 through 7th. Should be back over Labor Day, for a dance competition held downtown.




Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

[LvsAMystry]

This is where I wonder if ~ Jason was moving out, and/or he called her at 11pm and if so, did they argue and was Michelle in fear he might return and harm her? And maybe she didn't want to get into bed so might have laid down on top of the bed~ does anyone remember if the bed had looked slept in?


Good point also, you have to wonder what was up with that phone call or whether she had reason to feel threatened by him or someone. It could have been normal for her to keep the poker in the room while her husband was out of town. I know I get nervous and don't sleep well when mine is gone for the night, but I don't actually get a weapon or weapon-like object because of it. I do know, though, with my sister and her first marriage, she slept afraid of her husband and she kept a bat under the bed. So the idea of her maybe having the poker in hand is interesting. It could stem from a few reasons, and they do make you wonder.

[panthera]

I will admit that I haven't a clue, Panthera. I haven't found that link yet - looked on WRAL's archive re: MY's murder, but no luck. Possibly it was referenced in Greta's blog. I'll keep looking.




Donna B. in Raleigh, NCThanks, I appreciate it ~ and thanks also for the links in reference to the house.

[close_enough]

I was just there 2 weeks ago for a week! Country western dance world championships held at the Opryland Hotel from Jan. 1 through 7th. Should be back over Labor Day, for a dance competition held downtown.




Donna B. in Raleigh, NC

wow, cool!...so you're a 'boot scooter'???...like line dancing or something?

[panthera]

Good point also, you have to wonder what was up with that phone call or whether she had reason to feel threatened by him or someone. It could have been normal for her to keep the poker in the room while her husband was out of town. I know I get nervous and don't sleep well when mine is gone for the night, but I don't actually get a weapon or weapon-like object because of it. I do know, though, with my sister and her first marriage, she slept afraid of her husband and she kept a bat under the bed. So the idea of her maybe having the poker in hand is interesting. It could stem from a few reasons, and they do make you wonder.The only thing I'd find odd about her keeping a fireplace poker by the bed is that Cassidy could've hurt herself on it. A baseball bat or something blunt would've been my choice so my little child wouldn't get hurt.

[DonnaB]

wow, cool!...so you're a 'boot scooter'???...like line dancing or something?
I know some of the line dances, but I compete in couples dancing. Specifically, I dance ProAm with my coach, and right now I do 7 of the 8 couples dances: triple two step, nightclub two step, cha cha, waltz, two step, east coast swing, and west coast swing. Polka is the last one I have to learn, but we're putting that off for another 6 months or a year - I just graduated up a level and this year is going to be plenty difficult as it is, taking 7 dances to a higher level without having to learn one more.

[close_enough]

I know some of the line dances, but I compete in couples dancing. Specifically, I dance ProAm with my coach, and right now I do 7 of the 8 couples dances: triple two step, nightclub two step, cha cha, waltz, two step, east coast swing, and west coast swing. Polka is the last one I have to learn, but we're putting that off for another 6 months or a year - I just graduated up a level and this year is going to be plenty difficult as it is, taking 7 dances to a higher level without having to learn one more.

wow...impressive!:)

[LvsAMystry]

The only thing I'd find odd about her keeping a fireplace poker by the bed is that Cassidy could've hurt herself on it. A baseball bat or something blunt would've been my choice so my little child wouldn't get hurt.


True, which brings us back around to her maybe grabbing it while downstairs and ending up with it upstairs that night. Does anyone know if the lights were on or off when her sister found her? I'll look to see, I can't remember if it was noted. If they were off, thats another strange thing since she clearly wasn't dressed for bed so they must have still been on to some degree. The killer would have had to be pretty comfortable wandering around shutting the house down for the night if that is the case.

[DonnaB]

ROFL! Not all that impressive. :) Believe me, I have the video. This year and next year at "Novice," and then I should be ready to move up another level, and that's when the impressive stuff comes in.

[jilly]

Just thinking......this report to me tends to rule out a burglar, hitman or woman.
No way a burglar or hitman is going to try & strangle his victim imo. A woman - too much force here and not strong enough.

I agree with those here - JY started out strangling her and he discovered it wasn't going to be that easy. MY was a good match for him. He then lost it and we know how it ended.

[jilly]

The only thing I'd find odd about her keeping a fireplace poker by the bed is that Cassidy could've hurt herself on it. A baseball bat or something blunt would've been my choice so my little child wouldn't get hurt.

I wouldn't keep a poker by my bed - for one thing it would get the carpet dirty. Also if you're thinking you're going to be invaded in the middle of the night, a poker is a bit cumbersome to have to deal with. I think I'd keep a knife under my pillow or something.

[panthera]

True, which brings us back around to her maybe grabbing it while downstairs and ending up with it upstairs that night. Does anyone know if the lights were on or off when her sister found her? I'll look to see, I can't remember if it was noted. If they were off, thats another strange thing since she clearly wasn't dressed for bed so they must have still been on to some degree. The killer would have had to be pretty comfortable wandering around shutting the house down for the night if that is the case.See that autopsy report has given us all kinds of new questions! We knew there was no sign of forced entry, but yes good question~ were the lights in the house on or off when Meredith arrived in the afternoon? Did the bed look slept in? What stranger perp would enter the house at night with lights on, even if only upstairs? I really wonder what information Meredith would be able to provide as to Michelle's normal habits when Jason was out of town, or like when she'd normally go to bed if she wasn't going to work the next day.

[close_enough]

Just thinking......this report to me tends to rule out a burglar, hitman or woman.
No way a burglar or hitman is going to try & strangle his victim imo. A woman - too much force here and not strong enough.

I agree with those here - JY started out strangling her and he discovered it wasn't going to be that easy. MY was a good match for him. He then lost it and we know how it ended.

well said jilly.....no hitman

i'm heading to the couch to check Greta's show....maybe she'll have someone on that can give us info into the autopsy report...

[panthera]

I wouldn't keep a poker by my bed - for one thing it would get the carpet dirty. Also if you're thinking you're going to be invaded in the middle of the night, a poker is a bit cumbersome to have to deal with. I think I'd keep a knife under my pillow or something.Yes, it would get the carpet dirty for sure, and it's awkward. I don't know if I'd keep the knife under my pillow but the nightstand drawer would be convenient. There are quite a few common household articles that can be good for self-defense, but would be less dangerous with a child around.

[panthera]

well said jilly.....no hitman

i'm heading to the couch to check Greta's show....maybe she'll have someone on that can give us info into the autopsy report...She's talking about Shawn Hornbeck.

[raisincharlie]

I wouldn't keep a poker by my bed - for one thing it would get the carpet dirty. Also if you're thinking you're going to be invaded in the middle of the night, a poker is a bit cumbersome to have to deal with. I think I'd keep a knife under my pillow or something.
I keep a gun, I mean business. I can see someone keeping a good flashlight handy for more than one reason. For some reason I don't think this neighborhood lended itself to having a feel of insecurity. But a mag light flash light could be a formidable weapon as well as useful if the lights went out. JMO

[jilly]

RPD over at CTV is suggesting a hammer. Could be the end where you take out nails?

[jilly]

I keep a gun, I mean business. I can see someone keeping a good flashlight handy for more than one reason. For some reason I don't think this neighborhood lended itself to having a feel of insecurity. But a mag light flash light could be a formidable weapon as well as useful if the lights went out. JMO

Yeah that's a good one!

[pack_fan]

Anyone know where I can find the picture of Jason in basketball gear holding hands with Cassidy? Backs are turned to the camera.

[raisincharlie]

Anyone know where I can find the picture of Jason in basketball gear holding hands with Cassidy? Backs are turned to the camera.
I do not pack_fan - sorry. Was this photo one of the collection from the memorial site maybe. I think there is a link to that in the media thread but don't know if it is working still or not.

[pack_fan]

I do not pack_fan - sorry. Was this photo one of the collection from the memorial site maybe. I think there is a link to that in the media thread but don't know if it is working still or not.
Be right back, got a thought but want to see this photo again......

[concernedperson]

I wouldn't keep a poker by my bed - for one thing it would get the carpet dirty. Also if you're thinking you're going to be invaded in the middle of the night, a poker is a bit cumbersome to have to deal with. I think I'd keep a knife under my pillow or something.

I used to keep this huge wrench under my bed. Like a plumbers wrench. Don't know what happened to it...either I felt secure at some point or it was lost in a move.

[raisincharlie]

RPD over at CTV is suggesting a hammer. Could be the end where you take out nails?
I'm not buying the hammer theory - look at those wounds again - not much consistency there for a claw hammer. JMO

[Samiya]

Anyone know where I can find the picture of Jason in basketball gear holding hands with Cassidy? Backs are turned to the camera.I have it in my computer......lightened up.

If you want to pm me your email addy, I'll send it to you.

Sami

[raisincharlie]

RPD over at CTV is suggesting a hammer. Could be the end where you take out nails?
Is RPD Barney Fife here?

[panthera]

Anyone know where I can find the picture of Jason in basketball gear holding hands with Cassidy? Backs are turned to the camera.It was in the People article.

[close_enough]

a 'heads-up'...Greta WILL discuss the case tonight...

[concernedperson]

Anyone know where I can find the picture of Jason in basketball gear holding hands with Cassidy? Backs are turned to the camera.

Does this pic lighten the load? Or is this something I missed?

[close_enough]

Anyone know where I can find the picture of Jason in basketball gear holding hands with Cassidy? Backs are turned to the camera.

will this work?

http://celebrity.aol.com/people/ataol/articles/0,,20007855,00.html

oops...thought the pic was with this article...sorry! :blushing:

[panthera]

RPD over at CTV is suggesting a hammer. Could be the end where you take out nails?That wouldn't create the same type of injuries as the fireplace poker but it could be possible. I could also see Michelle maybe taking that upstairs for self-defense.

[panthera]

a 'heads-up'...Greta WILL discuss the case tonight...I'm waiting!! :D

[close_enough]

Does this pic lighten the load? Or is this something I missed?

i don't know CP...maybe to look at JY's hands???...personally, i think JY's hands look a tad bit feminine....but that's just me, lol...

[close_enough]

I'm waiting!! :D

me too!..."coming up"

[jilly]

I used to keep this huge wrench under my bed. Like a plumbers wrench. Don't know what happened to it...either I felt secure at some point or it was lost in a move.

I think it's a great idea even if as you say it makes you feel more secure!

[close_enough]

I wouldn't keep a poker by my bed - for one thing it would get the carpet dirty. Also if you're thinking you're going to be invaded in the middle of the night, a poker is a bit cumbersome to have to deal with. I think I'd keep a knife under my pillow or something.

i wouldn't either....we keep a gun...

[raisincharlie]

It's in People!
It is also in the link on Post 8 of the media thread. Kinda moves by though.

[close_enough]

http://brownwynne.mem.com/movie/MovingMemories.asp?ID=1581967&mm=0&bhcp=1

see if this link still works...it has the pic that pack's looking for...

[pack_fan]

Found the picture and some others as well but I didn't find what I was looking for. I thought he may have been wearing a watch on his right arm. Hence, left handed. I told some friends very early on in the case that I thought it would be very interesting to see the autopsy reports because I thought he was left handed. I don't know this for sure but that came to mind when the case first broke.

With only two lacerations on the face, I think most of the blows were from behind and since most of the damage is on the left side of the head, this leads me to beleive that the perp was left handed. Thought I may be able to find something but no luck. The case is coming on Greta now....

Also, no wounds in the palm as charlie stated. Almost like she was facing away from the perp with her arms over her head and palms on head covering up.

[pack_fan]

Amanda Lamb reporting.

[jilly]

I'm not buying the hammer theory - look at those wounds again - not much consistency there for a claw hammer. JMO

Yes, I agree now - I was just doing some reading at CTV - blows from a hammer would leave more than lacerations & brusing.

What do you make of no fractures to the back of the head (only brusing & lacerations? Someone's suggesting hitting her head against something hard while strangling.

Also someone has stated that where the skull is fractured (the temporal area), it's the thinnest bone (?) in the skull and wouldn't take much force to break.

Does it suggest to you that the murderer was not very strong?

[close_enough]

Baden says that the instrument used was lighter than a hammer, tire iron, etc.....

[happy2bn10ec]

Whoever did this absolutely HAD to be scratched up and at least a little bit beaten up looking. No wonder he wouldn't talk to police.

[panthera]

Baden says that the instrument used was lighter than a hammer, tire iron, etc.....Flashlight. He said it appears the weapon had styrations on it.

[Samiya]

Found the picture and some others as well but I didn't find what I was looking for. I thought he may have been wearing a watch on his right arm. Hence, left handed. I told some friends very early on in the case that I thought it would be very interesting to see the autopsy reports because I thought he was left handed. I don't know this for sure but that came to mind when the case first broke.

With only two lacerations on the face, I think most of the blows were from behind and since most of the damage is on the left side of the head, this leads me to beleive that the perp was left handed. Thought I may be able to find something but no luck. The case is coming on Greta now....Hi hon,

He is not wearing a watch at all in the pic. I'll have a look at the others for you.

Sami

[happy2bn10ec]

Flashlight. He said it appears the weapon had styrations on it.flashlight makes perfect sense.

[close_enough]

Flashlight. He said it appears the weapon had styrations on it.

yep!.....TopSail over at ctv mentioned a flashlight ....

[close_enough]

Whoever did this absolutely HAD to be scratched up and at least a little bit beaten up looking. No wonder he wouldn't talk to police.

i agree!!...she fought hard, i believe...that's why he couldn't strangle her...

[raisincharlie]

Baden says that the instrument used was lighter than a hammer, tire iron, etc.....
Now I'm scared - Jilly - we need to stop talking - especially about flash lights.

[pack_fan]

Hi hon,

He is not wearing a watch at all in the pic. I'll have a look at the others for you.

Sami
Thanks sami. I may be reading more into the autopsy than is really there since I had this pre-conceived notion that he was left handed.

[happy2bn10ec]

After the Laci trial, I promised myself I would never get as obsessed with another one...too late now.

Just think about her family having to hear all this stuff. How can they stand it?

[concernedperson]

Yes, I agree now - I was just doing some reading at CTV - blows from a hammer would leave more than lacerations & brusing.

What do you make of no fractures to the back of the head (only brusing & lacerations? Someone's suggesting hitting her head against something hard while strangling.

Also someone has stated that where the skull is fractured (the temporal area), it's the thinnest bone (?) in the skull and wouldn't take much force to break.

Does it suggest to you that the murderer was not very strong?

Negative. To force teeth out would require great force. Her skull was fractured in many places.

I had my skull fractured from a beating but it was once not repeatedly.

[jilly]

Now I'm scared - Jilly - we need to stop talking - especially about flash lights.
:eek:

[close_enough]

Negative. To force teeth out would require great force. Her skull was fractured in many places.

I had my skull fractured from a beating but it was once not repeatedly.

you're right about that...she was hit on the left side of her jaw (mandible)....it took some power to break that..that's why early on i thought he MIGHT have simply punched her in the face, but by the looks of the diagrams, i'm not so sure.....he used something instead of his fists, imo.....course that doesn't mean that he didn't acutally hit her at all...

eta...the report says multiple fractures to the mandible....i understand that this wasn't what killed her, but it still took some power...again, imo

[close_enough]

After the Laci trial, I promised myself I would never get as obsessed with another one...too late now.

Just think about her family having to hear all this stuff. How can they stand it?

i know Hap....it's got to be very hard for Michelle's mother & father...heck, the entire family....i would imagine though, they've known about these injuries for awhile.....i would THINK LE had given them some idea of how bad it was...course it wouldn't make any of this any easier i'm sure:(

[nanandjim]

Man, he sure wanted her dead, didn't he? From the autopsy, I am even more sure that it was her husband who killed her. Talk about overkill. There was no break-in; no robbery; no rape and extreme overkill. Who else who was very close to Michelle would want her dead? How many people knew that her husband left late that night for a business trip? If the husband wasn't the murderer, that sure left a very small window of opportunity for another killer, didn't it? Heck, she had a friend over until very late that night.

I believe that he underestimated how strong his wife really was. Remember, she was very athletic. He probably did have marks on his hands and arms. I wonder if the cops were able to observe anything when he came to retrieve his daughter the next day.

Of course, I feel that he caught her off guard. That wasn't enough to subdue her right away. He in his mind thought that he could strangle her and that would be it. I wonder if he was prepared with a weapon or just picked up something heavy in the room? Could a flashlight make that many deep lacerations to her head and even crack her skull? I was thinking of something heavier with a sharper edge. I guess I have to defer to Baden, though. He's the expert.

[LvsAMystry]

Hmm. Lighter than a hammer but sturdy enough to inflict that much force without breaking to bits, With striations. I have no idea.

[close_enough]

Hmm. Lighter than a hammer but sturdy enough to inflict that much force without breaking to bits, With striations. I have no idea.

Baden mentioned a flashlight....COULD be that lamp too, i suppose?

eta....this makes more sense too...that's why the fronts of her hands were so bruised...i think while she was being attacked, at some point she tried to cover her head with her hands....they got hit with the 'instrument' also, to some degree, imo...flashlight, lamp..something along those lines would make more sense....

[jilly]

Negative. To force teeth out would require great force. Her skull was fractured in many places.

I had my skull fractured from a beating but it was once not repeatedly.

Good point - I forgot about her teeth. That is HUGE force. I'm so sorry to hear about your personal experience. :(

[raisincharlie]

Hmm. Lighter than a hammer but sturdy enough to inflict that much force without breaking to bits, With striations. I have no idea.
mag light flashlight - they have a steel case with straitions, handle from a socket set also comes to mind.

[LvsAMystry]

Baden mentioned a flashlight....COULD be that lamp too, i suppose?

I'd be more inclined to think flashlight then. The lamp possibility has merit, but I think something like that may have been too awkward to really grip enough to deliver blows with any force. But you never know, could have been smaller sized lamp.

[close_enough]

I'd be more inclined to think flashlight then. The lamp possibility has merit, but I think something like that may have been too awkward to really grip enough to deliver blows with any force. But you never know, could have been smaller sized lamp.

aaahh yes...you're right...i agreed with you on that with one of your other posts...

[LvsAMystry]

aaahh yes...you're right...i agreed with you on that with one of your other posts...


;) God knows I have a ton of theories on things, none of which may actually be right!

[close_enough]

ok, i keep going back to edit one of my posts...might as well just start over....

this makes more sense too...that's why the fronts of her hands were so bruised...i think while she was being attacked, at some point she tried to cover her head with her hands....they got hit with the 'instrument' also, to some degree, imo...flashlight, lamp..something along those lines would make more sense....the left hand was injured more than the right, although there was a 1/2" abrasion on her right wrist.....at some point she had to have been down on her right side, using her hands to cover her head while being hit...that would make sense as to why the left hand was more bruised/injured...

[happy2bn10ec]

mag light flashlight - they have a steel case with straitions, handle from a socket set also comes to mind.
Those little mag lights are heavy, too, and come in several sizes. I'd say even the littlest ones could really pop if it was swung pretty hard.

I think it would make such a good weapon that if I thought I had to keep something handy, that's what I would pick. I don't even lock my doors half the time.

[raisincharlie]

Mag lite:


http://www.maglite.com/product.asp?psc=RECHARGE

[jilly]

I believe that he underestimated how strong his wife really was. Remember, she was very athletic. He probably did have marks on his hands and arms. I wonder if the cops were able to observe anything when he came to retrieve his daughter the next day.



Me too Nan. He met his match with her, imo. I doubt LE noticed anything the next day- fully clothed, sunglasses - my guess. He still had the sunglasses on at the funeral. Now I'm really thinking that he had a black eye. Boy, if this is the case and his parents have seen.....!!!!

LE didn't get to photograph him until Nov 8th - 5+ days after the murder. Someone was saying over at CTV that it takes 5 days for a surface wound to heal in which case LE might have been too late.

If it was him - let's hope he got a HUGE shiner!!

[close_enough]

;) God knows I have a ton of theories on things, none of which may actually be right!

well, you have a point...a lamp would seem to be harder to manage while struggling with someone....a flashlight; not so much so....

[jilly]

Well, if it was a mag lite then I'm thinking it was already at the house since it seems he planned on murder by strangulation and then grabbed for that.

We don't know if it is missing, but if it is, there's a good chance Meredith would know because she had the run of the house at one point.

[panthera]

mag light flashlight - they have a steel case with straitions, handle from a socket set also comes to mind.I'm thinking of a heavy-duty flashlight too, like cops have. Would Meredith know if Michelle had one in the house? If so, is it missing?

[pack_fan]

mag light flashlight - they have a steel case with straitions, handle from a socket set also comes to mind.
Some framing hammers have straitions as well but I think the hammer would have left the size of lacerations that were present.

I would suspect that the flashlight would be a good guess. Something that could have been in the bedroom. I think he came in with the intention of strangling her and things went bad. Possibly a kick in the you know what as charlie mentioned earlier. Things weren't going as planned and he found himself something in the bedroom to get the job done.

[close_enough]

Mag lite:


http://www.maglite.com/product.asp?psc=RECHARGE

:banghead:

i found a picture...a good up close picture of 3 diff maglite flashlights....it showed good detail of the kind of 'ridges' around the top part.....i lost the link & can't find it now....

[concernedperson]

I'd be more inclined to think flashlight then. The lamp possibility has merit, but I think something like that may have been too awkward to really grip enough to deliver blows with any force. But you never know, could have been smaller sized lamp.
.
It has to be something that would deliver a force. I feel that what he used was close to hitting a hole in one.A flashlight has force but not the force a golf club or a fireplace poker. Remember the skull is extremely resilient and strong in an adult. He used something that would insure that Michelle wouldn't recover.

I write these words and cringe with the thought. Remember her teeth were knocked out from her jaw.Jesus Christ...I am sure she was unconscious after the first 2 blows.

[raisincharlie]

I'm thinking of a heavy-duty flashlight too, like cops have. Would Meredith know if Michelle had one in the house? If so, is it missing?
I'm thinking it (if it is a flash light) is around Duffield...:D

[LvsAMystry]

.
I write these words and cringe with the thought. Remember her teeth were knocked out from her jaw.Jesus Christ...I am sure she was unconscious after the first 2 blows.

Yeah, which just highlights the rage and over overkill here. Scary rage.

[panthera]

I'm thinking it (if it is a flash light) is around Duffield...:DI knew you'd say that! :D

[pack_fan]

I'm thinking of a heavy-duty flashlight too, like cops have. Would Meredith know if Michelle had one in the house? If so, is it missing?
The heavy duty ones are indeed heavy. They have 4 D sized batteries. You would not to be on the receiving end of one of those blows.

W