Special Thread: "Of Michelle, Laci & Janet"

[Samiya]

Hey gorgeous people......special thread for those of you who are familiar with Laci Petersen and Janet Abaroa's cases.

This thread is for you to outline and discuss the similarities and similar circumstances between the murders of;

Michelle Young
Laci Petersen
Janet Abaroa

Time and time again I've seen comparisions made and lots of times I've wanted to go back and read, but they get lost (or I do) amongst the thousands of posts.

A special thanks to Tybee for permission to begin this one.

Sami
xxx

[scandi]

Thanks Sami dear,

I have to confess that I have never taken the time to even read about Janet's case. This weekend when I have some time I am going to read through that case. Then I'll be able to compare the 3.

Thanks for the thread. We have a date next Sunday! :D

[L L & S]

Let me see if I can post a little about Janet and where you can find more information.

_________________________________________
This is a quick look at Janet's case for those who aren't familiar and who might not be ready to tackle a whole other forum yet. I have taken parts of posts orginally posted by PrayersForMaura (I hope I'm not breaking any rules doing it this way.) She has done a fantastic job posting all of this and much much more info at this link. (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23779)

WHO: The victim is Janet Abaroa, 25 years old
WHAT: She was found murdered.
WHEN: Shortly before 11pm on the night of April 26, 2005.
WHERE: In one of the three bedrooms of the home she shared with her son and husband at 2606 Ferrand Drive.
HOW: She was stabbed to death, but the weapon has not been recovered.
WHY: We websleuthers are trying to help determine this.
The other threads in this forum may shed some light and help provide some much needed resolution to this case.


THE WHAT, WHERE, WHEN and HOW:
CRIME SCENE INFO

About the crime / what was reported to have happened:

Family members told reporters that Janet's husband, Raven, went to a soccer game that night and found his wife's body when he got home. As police continue their investigation, they say there are no clues to indicate the 25-year-old's homicide was a random act.

Conflicting reports indicate that officers found Abaroa's body in her home on Ferrand Road at about 11 p.m. April 26 after they were alerted by the woman's co-workers. Reports suggested one of Abaroa's co-workers e-mailed her, and when she failed to respond, she and other co-workers went to check on her.
Also in this report, Abaroa's husband wasn't at the crime scene, and police had no word on his whereabouts as of Wednesday evening, April 27. Police haven't disclosed whether they believe the slaying was the result of a domestic dispute.

WHAT WAS DISCOVERED:
Crime Scene and Investigation Info

Investigators spent nearly 24 hours on the scene, collecting evidence and talking with neighbors. However, police are not talking much at all, saying they don't want to hinder the investigation.

But they did say this:
"Nothing in the investigation so far indicates that the homicide was a random act," Durham Police Department spokeswoman Kammie Michael said in a statement.

In a later story, this was reported:
When the 911 call came in last Tuesday, police thought they were responding to a shooting, saying the victim's husband, Raven Abaroa, called police to "report a gunshot wound."

After officers got to the house on Ferrand Drive, Janet Abaroa's husband, Raven, told them his wife was upstairs hurt.

Authorities found the 25-year-old mother on the bedroom floor with what appeared to be a stab wound in her chest.

Durham Police said 25-year-old Janet Abaroa was found with multiple stab wounds on a bedroom floor inside her home in western Durham, where Abaroa lived with her husband, Raven Abaroa, and their 6-month-old son. Abaroa was pronounced dead at the scene.


Court papers show there were large amounts of blood on the floor, on the wall and near a side door of the home.

Here is the link to the time line. (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=654415&postcount=7)

Here is the link to the Media thread. (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23793)


Much of Janet's forum has been archived recently and to tell you the truth I don't know how to find the old threads. I'm sure someone who's been around longer than me will come around and clue me in. TIA!

I would also like to invite you to visit Tears For Janet.com (http://www.tearsforjanet.com/) and meet Janet and her family. There has been no news and no media coverage in such a long time I would like to invite you to please think about leaving encouraging words for Janet's wonderful family. I was honored to meet almost every single one of them at the Vigil and they are a courageous and loving family.

There is also a very large gallery of Janet and her family, her friends, her son and the candlelight vigil last year.

I hope this has been helpful and TY for this thread. I look forward to many new eyes taking a look at Janet's case and by doing that showing the family support.

.

[L L & S]

Scandi, I've been reading your posts here for a long time. I hope the above post helps you catch up. Thanks again Sami, mods, everyone.

http://bestsmileys.com/flowers/8.gif

[terminatrixator]

Janet, Laci & Michelle

All three women intelligent, hardworking, pretty

All three - pregnant

All three - no signs of force entry

All three - rumors & proof of affairs

All three - dogs in the home

All three - weapons not found

All three - Parents that deny the fact their child is or could be guilty

All three - Husbands I would deem to be sociopaths please see http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32061

All three - Husbands - deny, deny, deny

All three - Strange or inappropriate behaviors after the murder

All three - Have come up with a previous plan as an alibi as to where they were "at the time of the murder"

All three - IMO premeditated

All three - Life Insurance or rumors about Life Insurance

All three - Family have some sort of $ issue

All three - Search Warrant of Vehicles

All three - Husbands into some sporting activity

All three - Computer/Laptop searched

All three - Husband's retained attorney immediately

All three - Husband's have some sort of weird attachment to their Vehicles

Janet & Michelle - "Crime Lab" backlog

Janet & Michelle - Young child home alone with Mother at the time

All three - Refused Polygraph

All three - Job issues

Jason & Raven - Aggressive in nature at times, but have some say people think they are "such a guy"

All three - Living beyond their means


A post here expresses the attitudes of deceptive of all three men here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45093

Deceptive

Nervous at first; calms down as interview progresses
Angry; nonspecific; won't calm down
Overly anxious; seems confused
Overly polite
Defensive
Will be quiet; afraid he will say something to get him in trouble
Evasive in answers
Non commital in response
Complains; uncooperative
Guarded about what they tell you
Have to give a reason why they don't cooperate
Defeated; slumps head forward

I am not as familiar with Michelle's Murder as I am with Laci Petersons and Janet Christiansen Abaroa's..

This is just a quick off the top of my head listing, please feel free to point out any inaccuracies as I am not as familiar with Michelle Young's case.

[MREG2]

Just a quick addition to the previous post above (which is a great post!!)....

All 3 women were pregnant.

[Samiya]

Janet, Laci & Michelle

respectfully snipped for spaceThanks you so much for your fabulous post!

Hugs
Sami
xxx

[scandi]

Thanks so much LL&S for your really helpful post. Much appreciated and a perfect start to understanding the case. Just from a quick read the motive seems the same with baby on the way and I didn't see an alibi for the husband. I need to find out why LE didn't think it was a random crime, and so far it seems because they didn't find evidence at the scene of an intruder.

[terminatrixator]

Doh, I had all three pregnant there, and edited.

Please note if you go to Janet's forum you will see i have chronic edit compulsion.

I fixed my original post...i'm sure i will add to it.

[MREG2]

Doh, I had all three pregnant there, and edited.

Please note if you go to Janet's forum you will see i have chronic edit compulsion.

I fixed my original post...i'm sure i will add to it.

No prob!! :D

[L L & S]

Thanks so much LL&S for your really helpful post. Much appreciated and a perfect start to understanding the case. Just from a quick read the motive seems the same with baby on the way and I didn't see an alibi for the husband. I need to find out why LE didn't think it was a random crime, and so far it seems because they didn't find evidence at the scene of an intruder.My pleasure!

Raven took off to a "pick up" soccer game, which has never been confirmed by anyone, and came home to "find" his wife. I have posted over various Durham NC forums asking if ANYONE could tell me about this "pick up game" he says he went to. I've never had anyone come back and say, yea I was there or I saw this game or they have these kind of soccer games all the time around here or something. I have not found one other person who can tell me about this "pick up" game. I would love to know if LE ever found anyone that was at this game.

Some of the details I've forgotten.... Trix are you out there honey, can you help me out? Wasn't it reported that The Rav stopped for a sport drink or something on the way home from the game? and if so, do we know where and if a security video was ever found showing him buying said drink? maybe a receipt, or empty bottle? Did The Rav ever say what park he went to to join this soccer game? TIA!

[terminatrixator]

The WRAL article references that Raven left Ferrand "around 830pm" to go play indoor soccer in Morrisville. (Morrisville is a small town, SE of Durham, near the airport, and before Cary and ultimately Raleigh.)

Morrisville, the Carolina Sportsplex:

http://www.carolinasportsplex.com/

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/...C&2z=27560-8847 (http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&rmm=1&2si=navt&un=m&2gi=0&cl=EN&ct=NA&2da=-1.000000&2rc=L1AAA&rsres=1&1y=US&1ffi=&1l=&1g=&1pl=&1v=&1n=&1pn=&1a=2606+FERRAND+DR&1c=DURHAM&1s=NC&1z=27705-1738&panelbtn=1&2y=US&2ffi=&2l=jG76fGy9dXM%253d&2g=q8fuhJsMfSE%253d&2pl=&2v=ADDRESS&2n=WAKE+COUNTY&2pn=&2a=3717+DAVIS+DR&2c=MORRISVILLE&2s=NC&2z=27560-8847)

As far as stopping for a drink before or after game, I don't remember that as fact, just rumor, I have not gone through all the threads yet, but when I get time I will look and see if someone posted it as fact or as rumor when I get time.

[fran]

All three couples had college educations.

The wives all seemed to have more outgoing personalities than their husband.

The husbands seemed to have secrets, (more than 'other women,') from their wives.

The wives appeared more in tune with their present circumstance, ie expecting a child, financial, etc.

The husband's employment was sketchy or unstable.

The husbands seemed to have 'control' issues.

Each husband had 'computer contacts' their wife wasn't aware of.

All three husbands withdrew from the wife's family.

IMHO, the main thing that connects these three cases is that the wife was pregnant. But if you step back and look at several other cases that have appeared in Websleuths, you would see that less the pregnancy, these cases have many things in common with a number of cases.

Secrets, infedelity, control, $$ (in that the spouse is better off with the wife dead than a divorce). There are other cases where many of the same components existed but with an additional wrinkle and that is the wife found out about the 'secrets' or had just grown weary of the 'control,' and wanted out and was in the process of contacting or had already contacted a divorce attorney.

So, to me, the biggest connection to the cases is 'control.' When these guys feel they're losing 'control,' they panic and react.

JMHO
fran

[terminatrixator]

Yikes I was posting as you did Fran, we have a few of the same things listed (college) (Jobs)

Janet was not as outgoing as Raven, she was actually shy, until you got to know her as stated by her friends on the tearsforjanet.com site.

Raven was very outgoing.

I am going to update the post above to add the parts I missed. I did not add the sketchy information on the jobs, with the sales jobs beecause I am not as familiar with Jason as I am with Raven & Scott

I will also add all three husbands were controlling. Raven was extremely controlling, Scott was controlling in less obvious ways and again, I'm sorry I am not as up to speed with Jason as I am with the other two.

I do have some questions that I do not know - re: moving etc. and Mother's that is in my above post that maybe someone can answer for me.

<I deleted my post after Fran's and reposted it below to add her comments>

[MREG2]

Terminatrixator, those are some great questions (sorry I don't have any answers :doh: )! I hope someone does though. It would be interesting to see if there is a pattern of upbringing and these guys murdering their pregnant wives. (Yes, I do believe Raven and Jason are as guilty as good ol Scott.)

[terminatrixator]

All three women intelligent, hardworking, pretty

All three - pregnant

All three - no signs of force entry

All three - rumors & proof of affairs

All three - dogs in the home

All three - weapons not found

All three - Parents that deny the fact their child is or could be guilty

All three - Husbands I would deem to be sociopaths please see http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32061 (http://showthread.php/?t=32061)

All three - Husbands - deny, deny, deny

All three - Strange or inappropriate behaviors after the murder

All three - Have come up with a previous plan as an alibi as to where they were "at the time of the murder"

All three - IMO premeditated

All three - Life Insurance or rumors about Life Insurance

All three - Family have some sort of $ issue

All three - Search Warrant of Vehicles

All three - Husbands into some sporting activity

All three - Computer/Laptop searched

All three - Husband's retained attorney immediately

All three - Husband's have some sort of weird attachment to their Vehicles

Janet & Michelle - "Crime Lab" backlog

Janet & Michelle - Young child home alone with Mother at the time

All three - Husbands refused Polygraph

All three - Husband's job issues (Husband's job work history sketchy or unstable)

Jason & Raven - Aggressive in nature at times, but have some say people think they are "such a guy"

All three - Living beyond their means

--
recently added

All three - Husbands & Wives - College background

All three - Husbands worked in Sales

All three - Husband's jobs are fairly new

All three women - In college were into sports (ie cheerleading, soccer)

All three husbands - Kept secrets (more than 'other women,') from their wives. Raven, embezzlement, Scott "the Boat", Jason "the Gift" etc.

The wives appeared more in tune with their present circumstance, ie expecting a child, financial, etc.

All three - Husbands seemed to have 'control' issues.

Each husband had 'computer contacts' their wife wasn't aware of.

All three husbands withdrew from the wife's family.


===
Questions:

Laci & Scott had moved around
Janet & Raven had moved around a bit
Did Michelle & Jason?

Scott & Raven have (step siblings)
Did Jason?

What do we know about the Mother of Jason?......I find a connection between the strange attitude of Karyn (Raven's Mother) & Jackie (Scott's Mother)....

Is there a pattern between upbringing and these men that end up having their pregnant wive's murdered.

[terminatrixator]

You can also add Lori Hacking to this list, and see the pattern also.

There is a a bit of a difference with Mark Hacking. He had a stable family which I think helped him to come to terms with what he had done, this is not something I see in the Petersons or in Raven's family. Again, I don't know much about Jason Youngs family, so I cannot comment about that.

[terminatrixator]

Just found where it states Jason's father passed when he was 10 and the Mother remarried.

All three husbands - Stayed with Sisters after the murder (Jason with Sister, Scott with Step-Sister, Raven with Sister-in-Law.

[fran]

Yikes I was posting as you did Fran, we have a few of the same things listed (college) (Jobs)

Janet was not as outgoing as Raven, she was actually shy, until you got to know her as stated by her friends on the tearsforjanet.com site.

Raven was very outgoing.

I am going to update the post above to add the parts I missed. I did not add the sketchy information on the jobs, with the sales jobs beecause I am not as familiar with Jason as I am with Raven & Scott

I will also add all three husbands were controlling. Raven was extremely controlling, Scott was controlling in less obvious ways and again, I'm sorry I am not as up to speed with Jason as I am with the other two.

I do have some questions that I do not know - re: moving etc. and Mother's that is in my above post that maybe someone can answer for me.

<I deleted my post after Fran's and reposted it below to add her comments>

The fact that Jason lawyered up immediately, has never talked to LE, other than when they were confiscating his car, cut off all communications with Michelle's family immediately, NEVER has given any comment to news media, hasn't responded to LE's repeated attempts to interview him, even with his attorney present................control, IMHO.

Jason's job was new, just three months.

JMHO
fran

PS......I had said that about the outgoing part, including Janet, as that's how her friends described her. Although Raven was outgoing, Janet was when she wanted to be...........uhmmmm, perhaps when she wasn't around controlling Raven.......fran

[fran]

You can also add Lori Hacking to this list, and see the pattern also.

There is a a bit of a difference with Mark Hacking. He had a stable family which I think helped him to come to terms with what he had done, this is not something I see in the Petersons or in Raven's family. Again, I don't know much about Jason Youngs family, so I cannot comment about that.


Personally, I think each of these guys felt threatened by the 'intelligence' and success of their wife. Laci graduated before SP, although he was older. Janet had a job, Raven did not. Michelle was very successful in her career and Jason had just started his new 'sales' job. Lori Hacking had a successful carreer in the financial industry, had graduated from college, and Mark was lying about even going to school.

Oh,.............all three, FOUR, husbands, had a trouble with telling the TRUTH!

JMHO
fran

[ewwwinteresting]

All three couples had college educations.

The wives all seemed to have more outgoing personalities than their husband.

The husbands seemed to have secrets, (more than 'other women,') from their wives.

The wives appeared more in tune with their present circumstance, ie expecting a child, financial, etc.

The husband's employment was sketchy or unstable.

The husbands seemed to have 'control' issues.

Each husband had 'computer contacts' their wife wasn't aware of.

All three husbands withdrew from the wife's family.

IMHO, the main thing that connects these three cases is that the wife was pregnant. But if you step back and look at several other cases that have appeared in Websleuths, you would see that less the pregnancy, these cases have many things in common with a number of cases.

Secrets, infedelity, control, $$ (in that the spouse is better off with the wife dead than a divorce). There are other cases where many of the same components existed but with an additional wrinkle and that is the wife found out about the 'secrets' or had just grown weary of the 'control,' and wanted out and was in the process of contacting or had already contacted a divorce attorney.

So, to me, the biggest connection to the cases is 'control.' When these guys feel they're losing 'control,' they panic and react.

JMHO
fran
Great post Fran and I think you are exactly right regarding the "control" issue!

One thing I noticed differently about the cases is that Michelle, Laci and Lori's cases all have/had huge media publicity and POI/Suspect named fairly quickly.....Janet's case - no publicity or named POI/Suspect. Because of LE or Nifong in Durham, perhaps??

[terminatrixator]

Fran, thanks for your post. I agree with you.

Your first paragraph, you could insert Raven and Scott along with Jason, except that Raven has done a short impromptu phone interview (he pretty much had no choice but to comment) he also was caught coming outside of the embezzlement hearing by media, he was with his attorney, Raven spoke briefly and the look on his face....priceless.

Scott fits in there, except the part about refusal to talk to the "news media". Though many times Scott did refuse to talk to Media (remember him walking around with the telephone in his hand outside the home?) I also remember the crocodile tears during the Sawyer interview. ugh is all I have to say.

I agree that Janet seemed to be outgoing after you got to know her. I agree 100% that Raven was controlling. From what I have heard, he controlled what she wore, who she spoke too, what she did, he was an extreme control freak and believe he still is to this day.

All three men are Master Manipulators. I feel as though all three are sociopaths and the words of Sharon still ring true......Divorce is always an option.

I think with sociopaths, it's almost as though they need to snuff out the essence of these women because their goodness is something they cannot have, yet they don't want anyone else to have it either.

It's just my perspective on these men, I have no clue why any man would chose to murder their wife, but these men do seem to have so much in common, and it's my opinion that these men did indeed kill their wives.

Ewww, you raise some interesting questions.

The following is just a bunch of ramblings of mine, numbered only to help me post and to sorta through a bunch of facts etc. of what was going on at the time of Janet's murder to help those that have not followed Janet's case, to understand what was happening in Durham at that time in comparison to Michelle's and Laci's Murder. Please bear with me.

I believe there is a huge difference with the media attention given to these three cases.

Laci Peterson lived in Modesto, the home of Carole Sund Carrington Foundation. Modesto has definitely dealt with "the missing person" aspect of a crime before. Laci was pregnant and went missing, that drew out a lot of people searching for Laci and thus the huge media following.

When Janet was murdered, many things were happening at the same time publicly.

1. On April 18, 2005 NC Office of the Governor Mike Easley appointed Michael Nifong to the office of District Attorney, to fill Durham District Attorney Jim Hardin's seat, who became a Superior Court Judge, until the election.

2. On April 26, 2005 - Jennifer Wilbanks was reported missing. This was on every News station for days on end, throughout the Nation and the World.

3. On April 26, 2005 - Janet Marie Christiansen Abaroa and her unborn baby were found murdered in her Durham, North Carolina home.

4. On April 27, 2005 - Michael Nifong was sworn into office as the appointed DA. <To see the timeline of District Attorney - election issues - etc. please check out:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1260932&postcount=186

5. On April 27, 2005 - Medical Examiner notified of Janet's murder.

6. On April 28, 2005 - Medical Examiner views the body.

7. On April 28, 2005 - DA Nifong hands Freda Black (Assistant Prosecutor for the State against Michael Peterson) a resignation letter to be signed. She resigns and goes back to private practice.

8. On April 30, 2005 - Jennifer Wilbanks was "recovered" - still top news story.

9. May 6, 2005 - Jennifer Wilibanks hits the front cover of People Magazine. Still #1 National Story. http://www.blogmagazine.com/blog_magazine/2005/05/runaway_bride_i.html

10. May 7, 2005 - Funeral held for Janet Marie Christiansen Abaroa in Buena Vista, Virginia.

11. May 9, 2005 - Memorial Service held for Janet Marie Christiansen Abaroa held in Annandale, Virginia.

12. Janet & Raven's family both lived out of State. They had many good friends in the area, though immediate families are both out of the City of Durham, and out of the State of North Carolina. Not a lot of opportunity for media.

13. Police state "not a random act" "no sign of force entry"

14. Raven moved back to Utah....not a big chance of another homicide by whom, IMO, is the perpetrator, happening in Durham, NC. Raven is in Utah now, not a big chance of media hounding the husband.

15. Janet's family lives all over the United States and went back to their respective homes to deal with their grief and loss,

16. Janet's family has done some interivews. At the beginning of the case there is media footage. <edited this to move rest of paragraph to it's own number>

17. Durham, NC was the home of Peterson (East) trial, this caused a huge circus like atmosphere during this trial. Rumors surface that this case will be appealed. Could this be the reason for more of a tight-lipped attitude of Law Enforcement?

18. Within a week of Freda Black's forced resignation media reports surface with speculation that this popular Assistant Prosecutor of Michael Peterson trial will be running against DA Nifong.

19. July 2005 - Freda Black announces she will be running against DA Nifong in the Primary elections to be held in May 2006.

So, the top news storys for Durham was DA Nifong and Freda Black and the upcoming elections.

20. On March 14, 2006 - A woman in Durham, NC told police she was raped by Duke Lacross Players.

21. Between March 14, 2006 - Present. One of the Top National Headlines is the Duke Case, with DA Nifong giving 100's of interviews. This is still in the news daily in Durham and across the world.

22. <separated from no. 16> They did several interivews prior to and during the Candlelight Vigil held in Durham, North Carolina April 29, 2006 after the one year anniversary of Janet's brutal murder.

23. <edited to add) Sunday, April 30, 2006 Media attention again focused in Durham, NC as the Blackpanther Association were holding a rally in Durham on April 31, 2006 re: Duke Case.

23. <edited to add> May 2, 2006 Primary Elections - DA Nifong won.

Why one crime captures the media attention and the publics attention over another is something I don't know. I think there is varying reasons and it's something I have pondered. The above is just for a time reference.

Because of the Duke case, with DA Nifong front and center, Local and National Media have been camped out in the Raleigh, Durham area for a while now. National Media agencies got what I would call a "two-for."

When Michelle Young's murder occurred, National Media were already present in the area. They were getting two stories with the manpower that was already in the area.

I really would like to see more information and more studies done on the common bonds these men share, and the common bonds of these women, what are the warning signs, why do men kill their pregnant wives, why do they feel murder is an option, what is the common demoninator genetically and mentally that these men have.

[fran]

terminatrixator:
Interesting thoughts and lots of facts about the Abora case. I must admit, I followed Janet's case at the beginning but just watched as time went on and there were no developments, no news, and Raven split town.

All of these cases have common bonds, yet are miles apart. But, IMO, like any of the other 'wife' deaths we've studied, they all have a common denominator, a sociopath spouse. Oh, they may not have been 'officially' diagnosed, but they're definitely recognizable. You can see it in the progression of the relationships, the cases, the aftermaths. It's there, lurking behind closed doors,(the sociopathic mind). IMO.

The only reason some cases take hold of the media and others fall by the wayside is because of those connected to the 'victim.' It's the family and friends who tirelessly fight for justice for their loved one. They don't give up. They contact anyone and everyone who will listen to them. When one door closes with a 'no,' they don't give up but go on and on and on. It just takes getting the RIGHT door to open, and all the other previously closed doors will open back up.

Of course, the local political atmosphere and the additional headlines of the day did much damage into getting justice for Janet. That and the ridiculous escapade of the FAKE runaway bride. I hope she's happy that she may be one of the biggest reasons a murderer has gone free for killing this young mother, expectant mother.

I don't blame Janet's family for her case not being looked into more by the media. It's just the way it worked out. Plus, with them living so far away from the incident and the husband fleeing the state, it makes local LE's job much harder. It's like the March case. She wasn't pregnant, but the mother of two beautiful young children. It took 10 years, but in the end, with the dogged persistance of her parents and LE that wouldn't quit, they finally got their man, her sociopathic husband.

That's why we need to keep going for Janet. Don't let her be forgotten. When there's no news, it's easy to forget about it. Even the Michelle Young case is starting to go 'cold.' But.........we have to believe that LE is working behind the scenes, trying to solve these sad cases.

FWIW, even IF these husbands are guilty as many of us feel they are and IF they appear to get away with it, doesn't mean they won't do it again. I can't even count the number of cases I've seen in recent years where the 'husband' perp wasn't caught for twenty years,...............after the second and sometimes third wife's death..............Then LE sees a pattern and finally connects the dots. :doh:

JMHO
fran

[terminatrixator]

Thanks for your input Fran.

I believe both cases will be solved. It's a hard case when there is no witness, no murder weapon, even with a murder weapon, it's still a circumstantial evidence case. We all know how hard a Circumstantial Evidence case is to try and win.

I do believe that Raven is the murderer and do believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is capable of murdering again.

I hope and pray for Justice for Janet and Michelle, their unborn children and their family & friends.

[scandi]

You dear posters here carrying the ball! :blowkiss:

I am just throwing out a thought to see if it fits, so please don't nail me. OK? ;}

In Laci's case, Laci was always very close to her mother. They were like best buds and so they did alot of things together, talked on the phone alot, etc. Sometimes I thought this closeness might have started problems between Scott and Laci because Sharon, God bless her heart which is the best, was so controling of Laci.

Of course this had nothing to do with Scott murdering Laci, but he might have got tired of it and felt 2nd place to Sharon. It happens alot in real life. My mom was so controling that she would call at 7 each morning to get me out of bed. She insisted my husband get a college degree, and this pressure was very hard on him - he grew up in Ohio at Boys Town.

So I'm just wondering if there were similar forces at work here in Michelle and Janets cases.

Scandi

[barb0301]

I really would like to see more information and more studies done on the common bonds these men share, and the common bonds of these women, what are the warning signs, why do men kill their pregnant wives, why do they feel murder is an option, what is the common demoninator genetically and mentally that these men have.
I have read that murder is one of the primary causes of death for pregnant women in America. "A study published in the March 2005 edition of the American Journal of Public Health found that homicide was a leading cause of death among pregnant women in the United States between 1991 and 1999. Data taken from the Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the pregnancy-associated homicide ratio was 1.7 per 100,000 live births." I haven't found the link to the actual study, but here is an ABC News article which you might find interesting. It highlights the case of Lisa Underwood, who along with her 7 year old son, were murdered by the married father of her unborn child.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=522184&page=1

This is a very interesting article, and a good look at one of today's saddest statistics.

I haven't studied Janet's case, but thanks to all for educating me. I'm off to visit her memorial website now.

[scandi]

It was an earlier year, but when studying the SP case we were up on this and it generated many a heated discussion.

I'll look it up, but in about 2002-3, the #1 cause of death among pregnant women in the States was complication due to pregnancy. #2 was due to homicide, and I thought it was by the husband or someone intimately involved with the victim.

Anyone remember? Shades of yore, time gets the best of us ;) ;) ;) Tomorrow I'll do a bit of research, as it is a phenom. It is why we felt Laci's case educated so many women worldwide about learning the signs of a troubled mate. It was a giant one-up for women, more so I think even than Laci's law, as that has to be adopted state by state I think.

I'm falling asleep, but will head here first thing in the morning. Thanks Barb for the post.

[nanandjim]

What I have observed about the murders of wives by their husbands is the wife seems like the stable one in the family. The wife wants a family life while the husband is out and about, acting like he is single.

The husbands are partying, having affairs and spending money like it is going out of style. There are money problems, which are kept hidden (until perhaps the end) by the husbands. The husbands are not able to keep steady employment, probably because working is not their #1 priority.

I think that the wife's murder happens when the wife has discovered something that will jeopardize the husband's lifestyle. I don't think any of the men actually loved their wives. They considered them to be there for their own wants and needs.

Once the marriage was in jeopardy, the plot to murder began, because none of these men wanted a divorce. Divorce would bring their philandering, partying ways to a virtual halt. Who wants a guy that is broke, with bad credit, who has a roommate and who is paying his wife alimony and child support?

These guys figure that they can murder their wives, get the insurance money to pay off their debts and start over again. They even blame their wives for their own demise. She's the one that was nagging, wanted out of the marriage, or whatever.

I agree that all of these guys are sociopaths and will kill again if cornered. There are more than these three or four husbands that fit into this category. Someone started a thread about husbands who murdered wives. I should try to find the link and post it. I bet that almost all of these guys have overlapping traits.

[fran]

I know that I've mentioned this many times and it's too bad WS had those few crashes way back when. My very first post to WS included a link to the study that was available at the time, which was a few years old then, stating that:
1. 1 @ 6 pregnant women experience physical abuse
2. out of this, 40%, is the first time the abuse turned 'physical.'

The third point, I'm not quite sure on how it said it but it was something like, aside from complications of child birth, murder was the #1 cause of a pregnant woman's death, usually at the hands of their husband or boyfriend.

This same report stated that the woman was in the most danger in her first and third trimester. ie, the guy first finds out and tries to at least kill the baby but ends up killing the wife too (kicking in stomach etc), and by the third trimester the woman is visibly changing, the baby's birth is imminent, the woman talks about the baby, prepares for the arrival and so forth.

I don't recall if this was in the same study, but the further along a woman is when murdered, the more likely it was the spouse. If she's not visibly pregnant, it COULD be a random act of violence, whereby when she's obviously pregnant, a random person would pick a less cumberson person.

I was blown away by these statistics and found them just by plugging in 'pregnancy and domestic violence.' This same study was then quoted on a number of news reports and John Walsh, when he had his short-lived day-time program, used these as a 'subject' of one of his shows.

It's my feeling that of one GOOD thing that came out of Laci's case was the awareness of the danger a pregnant woman was in when she was married to or living with, an already 'controlling' or violent person. If her case saved even one (TWO) lives, it was something. I believe there have been many lives saved by Laci's case.

Also, at the time of Laci's murder, there were only 17 states that even checked to see if a woman was pregnant. So if a victim was not visibly pregnant, they may not have recorded she was on the death certificate, thus skewing the facts, imo.

I have also felt, and have stated as such previously, that this was a 'secret' if you will, among LE, the dangers a pregnant woman is in. Now it's in the MSM and everyone knows. So just casting suspicion aside of the SO as the perp because she was pregnant, there's no way her SO would do this to his own baby, well, is a myth. (one which I shared until Laci's case, fwiw).

At the end of the day, IMHO, the 'controller' is upset that he will no longer be the center of attention. The whole relationship, up to the baby, was about HIM. He didn't want to share the spotlight, the woman's attention, the $$$. After all, they were the center of the universe of that relationship and were not about to give up their space.

JMHO
fran

PS.........Oh, IMHO, it's all about things too.........which included people. The wife wasn't a 'person' but an object. The child wasn't a person, an object. Both possessions to be disposed of by it's owner (husband, SO) at will........imho, fran

[terminatrixator]

What I have observed about the murders of wives by their husbands is the wife seems like the stable one in the family. The wife wants a family life while the husband is out and about, acting like he is single.

The husbands are partying, having affairs and spending money like it is going out of style. There are money problems, which are kept hidden (until perhaps the end) by the husbands. The husbands are not able to keep steady employment, probably because working is not their #1 priority.

I think that the wife's murder happens when the wife has discovered something that will jeopardize the husband's lifestyle. I don't think any of the men actually loved their wives. They considered them to be there for their own wants and needs.

Once the marriage was in jeopardy, the plot to murder began, because none of these men wanted a divorce. Divorce would bring their philandering, partying ways to a virtual halt. Who wants a guy that is broke, with bad credit, who has a roommate and who is paying his wife alimony and child support?

These guys figure that they can murder their wives, get the insurance money to pay off their debts and start over again. They even blame their wives for their own demise. She's the one that was nagging, wanted out of the marriage, or whatever.

I agree that all of these guys are sociopaths and will kill again if cornered. There are more than these three or four husbands that fit into this category. Someone started a thread about husbands who murdered wives. I should try to find the link and post it. I bet that almost all of these guys have overlapping traits.I agree - these men are what would be considered sociopaths, they show emotions, but they don't really have them. They have ego issues, they value outside perception of them to the extreme, secrecey issues, justification issues, possession issues.

All of these men are capable of showing their feelings publicly, but I do not believe they truly feel the emotions they show, and it's painfully obvious by some of the things they all have said, and the things they have done and they all, IMO committed murder of their wives and unborn children.

They are the type that will deny to the end, and I believe found ways to justify to themselves, their actions.

I believe all three women knew something was going on and all three men knew they weren't going to continue getting away with their secret lives much longer, and they also couldn't handle the financial burden's (brought on by themselves and their secret lives) and divorce in their minds were not even an option.

All three men brought real value to Outside perception of them. They wanted the best of everything and liked "to look the part" and 'act the part' and their act would be over if there was a divorce. Divorce would then 'not look good'.

I believe the control issue is another thing. They would not even begin to fathom someone else taking their place in the future with their wives if they were to become x's and their child or children.

All three men seem to see have high regard for possessions, this is a sociopathic trait, ie vehicles, diploma's, toys, etc. to the extreme that inside they actually see people as possessions (ie their, child, children, wives) instead of individual human beings, they are thought of one would a possession.

They also all seemed to have "high ego's" and did not even think that there was a remote possibility of being blamed. Their inflated ego's thought they could get away with it.

I think that is why there are such similarities to these cases. They are sociopaths and that's why these are the type of men that kill their wives.

[terminatrixator]

Fran,

Once again, I started my post and by the time i finished it (trying to not have to edit so much) you posted - thank you again for your comments. Again, I agree.

It's good to be here and go over this stuff and have feedback and know that we are on the same wavelenth on so many of these issues. (re: control - possessions etc.)

Thank you for your post.

[fran]

Wow terminatrixator! We do think alike! :)

I appreciate your well thought out posts too.

I guess it just shows, these guys aren't fooling anyone but themselves. :doh:

JMHO
fran

[LTUlegal]

What I have observed about the murders of wives by their husbands is the wife seems like the stable one in the family. The wife wants a family life while the husband is out and about, acting like he is single.

The husbands are partying, having affairs and spending money like it is going out of style. There are money problems, which are kept hidden (until perhaps the end) by the husbands. The husbands are not able to keep steady employment, probably because working is not their #1 priority.

I think that the wife's murder happens when the wife has discovered something that will jeopardize the husband's lifestyle. I don't think any of the men actually loved their wives. They considered them to be there for their own wants and needs.

Once the marriage was in jeopardy, the plot to murder began, because none of these men wanted a divorce. Divorce would bring their philandering, partying ways to a virtual halt. Who wants a guy that is broke, with bad credit, who has a roommate and who is paying his wife alimony and child support?

These guys figure that they can murder their wives, get the insurance money to pay off their debts and start over again. They even blame their wives for their own demise. She's the one that was nagging, wanted out of the marriage, or whatever.

I agree that all of these guys are sociopaths and will kill again if cornered. There are more than these three or four husbands that fit into this category. Someone started a thread about husbands who murdered wives. I should try to find the link and post it. I bet that almost all of these guys have overlapping traits.
Very well said, I agree with all of it!