Andrea Yates Moved

[RKnowley]

Yates transferred to Kerrville State Hospital

From staff reports (http://web.dailytimes.com/contact.lasso?ewcd=674830b4a7448f57def367820309806 80e06243ddf69bfd8)
The Daily Times Published January 27, 2007

Andrea Yates, the Houston woman who drowned her children in a bathtub, was moved on Wednesday to the Kerrville State Hospital.

Yates’ attorney George Parnham confirmed her move in a phone interview Friday morning with KRIV-TV, the Fox affiliate in Houston. The interview was posted on the station’s Web site.

Parnham said the move was based on the recommendation of her treatment team, which had evaluated her mental condition from 2001 through the present day.

“That information was presented to a board in Vernon,” Parnham said in the phone interview. “It was determined that Andrea was no longer a danger to anyone and was suitable for transfer to the Kerrville (State) Hospital.”

In 2001, Yates reportedly heard voices telling her to drown her children so they would be saved from going to hell. They were Noah, 7; John, 5; Luke, 3; Paul, 2; and Mary, 6 months.

The Kerrville State Hospital is a 202-bed facility that primarily serves forensic patients who have been found incompetent to stand trial.

State hospital administrators could not be reached late Friday.

Source: http://web.dailytimes.com/story.lasso?ewcd=555388a0e261363e

[Peter Hamilton]

Interesting--let me know when she moves to hell--they are waiting for her down there

[julianne]

Interesting--let me know when she moves to hell--they are waiting for her down there
Ha ha.....you are soooo right. Ol' Satan himself is saving her a seat.....

[RKnowley]

How do you know they are waiting for her? Do you have a seat reserved for yourself there?



Interesting--let me know when she moves to hell--they are waiting for her down there

[julianne]

How do you know they are waiting for her? Do you have a seat reserved for yourself there?
I'll answer, although you're posing the question to Peter Hamilton, because I agree with him---

I would say there is no better candidate for Hell (if there is such a thing) than a "mother" who methodically drowns all her innocent children. Call it karma, call it Hell, whatever you want to call it.....in the end when all is said and done, I firmly believe she will get what she deserves.

'Nuff said.

[kcksum]

I'll answer, although you're posing the question to Peter Hamilton, because I agree with him---

I would say there is no better candidate for Hell (if there is such a thing) than a "mother" who methodically drowns all her innocent children. Call it karma, call it Hell, whatever you want to call it.....in the end when all is said and done, I firmly believe she will get what she deserves.

'Nuff said.
I would have to agree, since apparently she still shows no genuine remorse even though she is now "cured". She apparently even talked about wanting to have another baby. That is the number one way she is without remorse. To know you were nuts enough to murder your own children, and then want more.She is the one who talked about how overwhelming it was to have children, and her attorneys are the ones who sold the whole "she was psychotic because her husband kept her pregnant and in post pardom psychosis" defense. Now she wants the state to trust her to procreate? Give me a break!
I hope she never sees the outside of a facility in her life. I hope the last thing she sees every night is the faces of her young looking at her in fear of the animal she was. Not human, less than human, just like a mother wolf who tired of her young and decided to kill them. She deserves to live in mental anguish and grief the rest of her days. But, like Scott Peterson and Jeff Macdonald and anyone else who cold bloodedly murdered their family, she just sits with that dumb look on her face, wanting to have more babies to kill. Just doesn't seem right.:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[curious1]

Is this more like a 'hospital' where she can walk around? I would not want to be in the bathroom with her with a full tub o' water if I was a fellow resident.

[curious1]

Kcksum, I see you are one of 'those people'. You know the type who hold things in and never tell people what you really feel. :D Hee. You basically summed up my feelings on the whole disgusting thing.

[Glow]

I would have to agree, since apparently she still shows no genuine remorse even though she is now "cured". She apparently even talked about wanting to have another baby. That is the number one way she is without remorse. To know you were nuts enough to murder your own children, and then want more.She is the one who talked about how overwhelming it was to have children, and her attorneys are the ones who sold the whole "she was psychotic because her husband kept her pregnant and in post pardom psychosis" defense. Now she wants the state to trust her to procreate? Give me a break!
I hope she never sees the outside of a facility in her life. I hope the last thing she sees every night is the faces of her young looking at her in fear of the animal she was. Not human, less than human, just like a mother wolf who tired of her young and decided to kill them. She deserves to live in mental anguish and grief the rest of her days. But, like Scott Peterson and Jeff Macdonald and anyone else who cold bloodedly murdered their family, she just sits with that dumb look on her face, wanting to have more babies to kill. Just doesn't seem right.:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:


I happen to think a mother wolf would act with much more decency...

good postkcksum

[Jeana (DP)]

The woman is crazier than a bed bug. My God doesn't punish people like that. You also don't know if she's remorseful or not since you never even spoken to her or anyone she knows. She was found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity. Sorry if that bothers any of you, but she was tried in a court of law. If you disagree with it, do something to change the law instead of just biotching about it.

[KT Can]

The woman is crazier than a bed bug. My God doesn't punish people like that. You also don't know if she's remorseful or not since you never even spoken to her or anyone she knows. She was found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity. Sorry if that bothers any of you, but she was tried in a court of law. If you disagree with it, do something to change the law instead of just biotching about it.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

[RKnowley]

I second that. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:



:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Jeana (DP)]

I second that. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Thanks! :blushing: :blushing: :blushing:

[julianne]

The woman is crazier than a bed bug. My God doesn't punish people like that. You also don't know if she's remorseful or not since you never even spoken to her or anyone she knows. She was found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity. Sorry if that bothers any of you, but she was tried in a court of law. If you disagree with it, do something to change the law instead of just biotching about it.
Who's biotching about the law??? Who's disagreeing with ANYTHING about her legal case?? Who's saying they are bothered by her being found insane?? Not anyone on this thread from what I can see. All I'm saying is that in the end, I firmly believe that she will get what she justly deserves.

[RKnowley]

By reading kcksum's post I would say they are upset about Andrea being found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity and thinks that Andrea was just putting on a show that she was mentally ill.

ETA: Andrea is still mentally ill and always will be.



Who's biotching about the law??? Who's disagreeing with ANYTHING about her legal case?? Who's saying they are bothered by her being found insane?? Not anyone on this thread from what I can see. All I'm saying is that in the end, I firmly believe that she will get what she justly deserves.

[WindChime]

I totaly agree 110% with Jeana post...

[Glow]

I agree with Jeana that God will not punish this mentally ill woman. I also agree with kcksum's concern over her being released and perhaps being a parent again.

[kcksum]

By reading kcksum's post I would say they are upset about Andrea being found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity and thinks that Andrea was just putting on a show that she was mentally ill.

ETA: Andrea is still mentally ill and always will be.then you infered wrong from reading my post. Never once did I say she wasn't mentally ill. It is obvious this woman was in a state of psychosis. A state that she had been in before and had been prescribed meds for that SHE chose to stop taking. SHE chose to stay married to a man that insited she remain pregnant and insisted she get off of her meds. Andrea Yates should have to shoulder some of the responsability here .....that's all I am saying.
I comented that she is now on meds and in a lucid state. It is in this lucid state of normalcy that Andrea has stated her wish to have another baby.....not in her psychotic state, in her well state. That to me says she has no remorse for the lives she has taken up to now.That she must not see herself as a bad mother, because she thinks she is "well" enough to take another crack at it. This is a woman who claims pregnancy in itself made her psychotic enough to drown her children, and now wants to have another pregnancy. That is like a serial killer claiming pornography made him kill, and asking to have a stack of porno mags delivered to him.
I also never mentioned God's judgement. I talked about how I wanted her to be haunted by the faces of the children she chose to murder, and how I personally judge her. Don't confuse how I would judge her with they way God would judge her.I would never assume how God will choose to judge anyone, he's God, only he gets to make that call.
I also never was "Biotching" about the law. I think it sucks that anyone who kills five babies gets to eat three meals a day and enjoy living.....mentally ill or not......they are a menace to society, dangerous to society, and serve no purpose but to eat up tax dollars. I feel that way about all child murderers, regardless of their mental state. I also know that my opinion on that matter will never change any law in this country because most people don't feel that way.
I have no sympathy for Andrea yates, I have much sympathy for her children and those left behind who loved them. She chose to get off of her meds, she chose to keep having babies even though she knew having them put her in a mentally ill state. She made choices that led to the demise of five innocent children. Mentally ill or not, her choices are the biggest reason she is where she is today. For the record,I also think her husband should be charged as an accessory.

[julianne]

Very well said, kcksum.

Her day WILL come.

[Jeana (DP)]

then you infered wrong from reading my post. Never once did I say she wasn't mentally ill. It is obvious this woman was in a state of psychosis. A state that she had been in before and had been prescribed meds for that SHE chose to stop taking. SHE chose to stay married to a man that insited she remain pregnant and insisted she get off of her meds. Andrea Yates should have to shoulder some of the responsability here .....that's all I am saying.
I comented that she is now on meds and in a lucid state. It is in this lucid state of normalcy that Andrea has stated her wish to have another baby.....not in her psychotic state, in her well state. That to me says she has no remorse for the lives she has taken up to now.That she must not see herself as a bad mother, because she thinks she is "well" enough to take another crack at it. This is a woman who claims pregnancy in itself made her psychotic enough to drown her children, and now wants to have another pregnancy. That is like a serial killer claiming pornography made him kill, and asking to have a stack of porno mags delivered to him.
I also never mentioned God's judgement. I talked about how I wanted her to be haunted by the faces of the children she chose to murder, and how I personally judge her. Don't confuse how I would judge her with they way God would judge her.I would never assume how God will choose to judge anyone, he's God, only he gets to make that call.
I also never was "Biotching" about the law. I think it sucks that anyone who kills five babies gets to eat three meals a day and enjoy living.....mentally ill or not......they are a menace to society, dangerous to society, and serve no purpose but to eat up tax dollars. I feel that way about all child murderers, regardless of their mental state. I also know that my opinion on that matter will never change any law in this country because most people don't feel that way.
I have no sympathy for Andrea yates, I have much sympathy for her children and those left behind who loved them. She chose to get off of her meds, she chose to keep having babies even though she knew having them put her in a mentally ill state. She made choices that led to the demise of five innocent children. Mentally ill or not, her choices are the biggest reason she is where she is today. For the record,I also think her husband should be charged as an accessory.


Well therein lies the problem in the way you're thinking about this case. She was found "not competent." So, all those "decisisions" and "choices" you talk about she is NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR. Why? Because she is mentally ill. If its on the books, then its a defense. I believe that she fits the insanity defense more than just about anyone I've ever heard of. Of course, I'd like someone to be able to assure me that she's not going to be released one day, but putting someone with her mental disease in prison is cruelty and we don't treat mental patients like that in this country.

[curious1]

snip...I comented that she is now on meds and in a lucid state. It is in this lucid state of normalcy that Andrea has stated her wish to have another baby.....not in her psychotic state, in her well state. That to me says she has no remorse for the lives she has taken up to now.That she must not see herself as a bad mother, because she thinks she is "well" enough to take another crack at it....snip
That is the part that bothers me also. She is on her meds now and knows what she did and has stated that she would like another child. Why?????? She knows what she did, what makes her think it would be any different the 6th time around?

[RKnowley]

You say you didn't infer that Andrea Yates was not mentally ill and in the state of psychosis when she killed her children. Interesting, because you posted that Andrea's attorneys are the ones who sold the whole thing about her being psychotic and about the post PARDOM psychosis (btw it should be postpartum psychosis not post pardom). To me that infers that you don't believe Andrea actually WAS psychotic and that her lawyers made it up as part of her defense. Right now Andrea is DOPED up to the hilt with meds and she still isn't mentally fit.

Yes Andrea did chose to be off her meds and a lot of MENTALLY ILL individuals do. They do not think they are ill and don't think they need meds. Some think that their medication is being poisoned and therefore stop taking it (They are paranoid) for that reason.

You compare Andrea Yates to Scott Peterson and Jeff McDonald and say she just sits there was a dumb look on her face. That look is the EFFECT of the medications she is STILL and will ALWAYS be on. It's called the FLAT effect. No

Where did you read that Andrea wants to have another child? I'd like to read that article myself.

I still remember Noah, John, Paul, Luke, & Mary and wish that Andrea would have had the treatment available to her so this did not happen. If people would stop turning a blind eye to mentally ill people and they start getting the treatment needed maybe these things would stop happening.

kcksum posted>>>
I would have to agree, since apparently she still shows no genuine remorse even though she is now "cured". She apparently even talked about wanting to have another baby. That is the number one way she is without remorse. To know you were nuts enough to murder your own children, and then want more.She is the one who talked about how overwhelming it was to have children, and her attorneys are the ones who sold the whole "she was psychotic because her husband kept her pregnant and in post pardom psychosis" defense. Now she wants the state to trust her to procreate? Give me a break!
I hope she never sees the outside of a facility in her life. I hope the last thing she sees every night is the faces of her young looking at her in fear of the animal she was. Not human, less than human, just like a mother wolf who tired of her young and decided to kill them. She deserves to live in mental anguish and grief the rest of her days. But, like Scott Peterson and Jeff Macdonald and anyone else who cold bloodedly murdered their family, she just sits with that dumb look on her face, wanting to have more babies to kill. Just doesn't seem right.
then you infered wrong from reading my post. Never once did I say she wasn't mentally ill. It is obvious this woman was in a state of psychosis. A state that she had been in before and had been prescribed meds for that SHE chose to stop taking. SHE chose to stay married to a man that insited she remain pregnant and insisted she get off of her meds. Andrea Yates should have to shoulder some of the responsability here .....that's all I am saying.
I comented that she is now on meds and in a lucid state. It is in this lucid state of normalcy that Andrea has stated her wish to have another baby.....not in her psychotic state, in her well state. That to me says she has no remorse for the lives she has taken up to now.That she must not see herself as a bad mother, because she thinks she is "well" enough to take another crack at it. This is a woman who claims pregnancy in itself made her psychotic enough to drown her children, and now wants to have another pregnancy. That is like a serial killer claiming pornography made him kill, and asking to have a stack of porno mags delivered to him.
I also never mentioned God's judgement. I talked about how I wanted her to be haunted by the faces of the children she chose to murder, and how I personally judge her. Don't confuse how I would judge her with they way God would judge her.I would never assume how God will choose to judge anyone, he's God, only he gets to make that call.
I also never was "Biotching" about the law. I think it sucks that anyone who kills five babies gets to eat three meals a day and enjoy living.....mentally ill or not......they are a menace to society, dangerous to society, and serve no purpose but to eat up tax dollars. I feel that way about all child murderers, regardless of their mental state. I also know that my opinion on that matter will never change any law in this country because most people don't feel that way.
I have no sympathy for Andrea yates, I have much sympathy for her children and those left behind who loved them. She chose to get off of her meds, she chose to keep having babies even though she knew having them put her in a mentally ill state. She made choices that led to the demise of five innocent children. Mentally ill or not, her choices are the biggest reason she is where she is today. For the record,I also think her husband should be charged as an accessory.

[julianne]

You say you didn't infer that Andrea Yates was not mentally ill and in the state of psychosis when she killed her children. Interesting, because you posted that Andrea's attorneys are the ones who sold the whole thing about her being psychotic and about the post PARDOM psychosis (btw it should be postpartum psychosis not post pardom). To me that infers that you don't believe Andrea actually WAS psychotic and that her lawyers made it up as part of her defense. Right now Andrea is DOPED up to the hilt with meds and she still isn't mentally fit.

Yes Andrea did chose to be off her meds and a lot of MENTALLY ILL individuals do. They do not think they are ill and don't think they need meds. Some think that their medication is being poisoned and therefore stop taking it (They are paranoid) for that reason.

You compare Andrea Yates to Scott Peterson and Jeff McDonald and say she just sits there was a dumb look on her face. That look is the EFFECT of the medications she is STILL and will ALWAYS be on. It's called the FLAT effect. No

Where did you read that Andrea wants to have another child? I'd like to read that article myself.

I still remember Noah, John, Paul, Luke, & Mary and wish that Andrea would have had the treatment available to her so this did not happen. If people would stop turning a blind eye to mentally ill people and they start getting the treatment needed maybe these things would stop happening.

She DID have treatment READILY available---doctors, psychiatrists, medication----what wasn't readily available to her??? She went to docs, got prescriptions, took medication, and was even temporarily placed. This wasn't someone who didn't have the resources to treat her problems and make her deal with her issues. She CHOSE not to continue utilizing those resources that were sooooo available to her---and five innocent babies suffered horrific deaths because of it. She CHOSE to go against medical advice and get pregnant again----which only resulted in another innocent babies corpse to be buried!

[RKnowley]

I place the blame on the doctors/insurance company for only treating her in a facility for so long because her insurance ran out for one.

I place some of the blame on the doctor who withdrew one of her meds & said all Andrea needed was to think happy thoughts shortly before her killing her children.

I blame the doctor who gave Andrea 3 TIMES more than the regular dose of another medication she was on.

I blame Rusty (her "LOVING" husband) for leaving Andrea alone with the children when she was so obviously mentally ill.

I do not blame Andrea for what happened while she was so deeply into her psychosis at that time. Andrea was mentally ill when she was placed into a facility an I don't think she should have been making the decisions. It was left up to good old Rusty and he was such a control freak that he wanted Andrea home taking care of the children...where he wanted her. HE wanted her barefoot and pregnant as much as possible and being that Andrea was mentally ill she didn't really know what she was thinking and did what Rusty wanted.

Some of Andrea's history. IMO somebody in this state should not be able to make decisions about her treatment options. Rusty was left in charge of that and he is an idiot!

Andrea’s First Suicide Attempt : On June 16 1999, Andrea called Rusty and begged him to come home. He found her shaking involuntarily and chewing on her fingers. The next day, she was hospitalized after she tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of pills. She was transferred to the Methodist Hospital psychiatric unit and diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. The medical staff described Andrea as evasive in discussing her problems.

However, on June 24 she was prescribed an antidepressant and released.

Spiraling Downward: Once home, Andrea did not take the medication and as a result she began to self mutilate and refused to feed her children because she felt they were eating too much. She thought there were video cameras in the ceilings and said that the characters on television were talking to her and the children. She told Rusty about the hallucinations, yet neither of them informed Andrea's psychiatrist, Dr. Starbranch. On July 20, Andrea put a knife to her neck and begged her husband to let her die.

Warned About the Risks of Having More Babies : Andrea was again hospitalized and stayed in a catatonic state for 10 days. After being treated with an injection of different drugs that included Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug, her condition immediately improved. Rusty was optimistic about the drug therapy because Andrea appeared more like the person he first met. Dr. Starbranch warned the Yates that having another baby might bring on more episodes of psychotic behavior. Andrea was placed on out-patient care and prescribed Haldol.

New Hopes for the Future : Andrea's family urged Rusty to buy a home instead of returning Andrea to the cramped space of the bus. He purchased a nice home in a peaceful neighborhood. Once in her new home, Andrea's condition improved to the point that she returned to past activities like swimming, cooking and some socializing. She was also interacting well with her children. She expressed to Rusty that she had strong hopes for the future but still viewed her life on the bus as her failure.

The Tragic End: In March of 2000, Andrea, on Rusty's urging, became pregnant and stopped taking the Haldol. On November 30, 2000, Mary was born. Andrea was coping but on March 12, her father died and immediately her mental state digressed. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible.


By the end of March Andrea returned to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released in 10 days and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.

Two days later, Rusty left for work and before his mother arrived to help, Andrea began to put into action the thoughts that had consumed her for two years. Andrea filled the tub with water and beginning with Paul, she systematically drowned the three youngest boys, then placed them on her bed and covered them. Mary was left floating in the tub. The last child alive was the first born, seven-year-old Noah. He asked his mother what was wrong with Mary, then turned and ran away. Andrea caught up with him and as he screamed, she dragged him and forced him into the tub next to Mary's floating body. He fought desperately, coming up for air twice, but Andrea held him down until he was dead. Leaving Noah in the tub, she brought Mary to the bed and laid her in the arms of her brothers.

Source:
http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm

She DID have treatment READILY available---doctors, psychiatrists, medication----what wasn't readily available to her??? She went to docs, got prescriptions, took medication, and was even temporarily placed. This wasn't someone who didn't have the resources to treat her problems and make her deal with her issues. She CHOSE not to continue utilizing those resources that were sooooo available to her---and five innocent babies suffered horrific deaths because of it.

[curious1]

IMO, Rusty Yates deserves to serve some time as well. He kept taking her out of treatment and encouraging her to go off the meds IIRC. He wanted the perfect wife and the perfect family. A wife on meds was not the perfect wife. I think their religion played a big part in it as well. I do know that happens. I knew somone who was on antidepression meds, but she went off of them because her husband and her church told her that depression was just the devil in her mind and that she only had to get right with God and push satan out of her mind and she would be cured. Luckily they were an older couple with no kids.

[Jeana (DP)]

I think there's PLENTY of blame to go around here. You'd have to start with those adults who were in their right mind and go from there though.

[kcksum]

I think there's PLENTY of blame to go around here. You'd have to start with those adults who were in their right mind and go from there though.I agree DP (wow we agree) Again, I never said she wasn't mentally ill. however, I think her decision to stop treatement for her illness and to have more children lends creadence that she should shoulder some responsibility.
I also feel those who are found guilty but insane or not guilty by reason of inanity should be housed in a hospital until they are lucid, but Once on meds and able to view reality, they should begin serving their sentance. Someone who is so drunk or high that they don't know what they are doing doesn't get to stay out of prison, neither should those who are in a mentally ill state.
She still killed 5 children. She should still have to serve her sentence. She should never be given the chance to be a parent again.
And we do put mentally ill people in prison all the time.Almost all criminals could be given a dsm 5 diagnosis.

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree DP (wow we agree) Again, I never said she wasn't mentally ill. however, I think her decision to stop treatement for her illness and to have more children lends creadence that she should shoulder some responsibility.
I also feel those who are found guilty but insane or not guilty by reason of inanity should be housed in a hospital until they are lucid, but Once on meds and able to view reality, they should begin serving their sentance. Someone who is so drunk or high that they don't know what they are doing doesn't get to stay out of prison, neither should those who are in a mentally ill state.
She still killed 5 children. She should still have to serve her sentence. She should never be given the chance to be a parent again.
And we do put mentally ill people in prison all the time.Almost all criminals could be given a dsm 5 diagnosis.


I think that changing the wording of the laws is a good idea. But, the way the wording is now, it can't affect this case. Please don't think that I'm soft of the murderers of children. This is the only case I've ever been on this side of. I just think that she was so out of it that there could be no blame placed on her. Now, going back and trying to judge her years before is something that may be done, but what good would it do? If you find time, please try to read up on the Schlossberg case in Plano, Texas. This is another case where the so-called "church" they were members of played a HUGE part in the outcome.

[RKnowley]

When I say I don't blame Andrea for what she did I do not mean she should not be put in a mental health facility and get medical treatment there.

I do mean that I dont think Andrea should be put in prison or tormented with visions of her dead children for the rest of her life.

I do believe Andrea deserves peace. I think she does punish herself enough for what she did. Andrea will never be normal again.

Also, again, I'd like to read any article that says she wants to have more children. Is there a link anyone or is it just hearsay?

[OneLostGrl]

*Sigh*

This is such a difficult thread, I try so hard not to read here because I know if I do I'm gonna respond and ArrGH I hate getting myself worked up over this! The people who feel Andrea had a choice in the matter have obviously never been Psychotic and could never understand what it means to be Psychotic.. when we "discuss" this stuff it goes nowhere and it never will!

Although I know that Andrea was/is insane, I also agree with others when they say she should be locked up for the rest of her life. I just disagree with where they think she should be housed.

I get the feeling that the people that think Andrea should be housed in a prison and not a mental hospital have never been in a mental institution. The way people are writing, it seems y'all think a mental hospital is a fun thing, something that does not offer punishment and rehabilitation.

I can assure you Andrea is not skipping down the halls, having fun, playing tennis etc. There is nothing fun about a nut house, people, N- O- T -H -I- N -G!!! People crying out all night, scared, angry, psychotic, manic, Homicidal, suicidal, delusional etc etc...

Locked wards, sometimes locked rooms.. without anything in the room but a mattress and a video camera that watches you 24-7. Every 15 minutes, all night long, someone enters your room, awakens you with a flashlight shining on your face announcing "Checks!"

Your neighbor just may be a serial killer or a rapist but guess what?! Unlike in prison, HIS bedroom door isn't locked!

Trust me, I'd rather go to prison than a nuthouse... a prison is safer, quieter and probably has better food and at least your murdering neighbor is locked in a cell!!

Andrea is being punished, Andrea is locked up, Andrea is serving her sentence.. with much more dangerous people than you'd ever find in a prison!

[poco]

The woman is crazier than a bed bug. My God doesn't punish people like that. You also don't know if she's remorseful or not since you never even spoken to her or anyone she knows. She was found NOT GUILTY by reason of insanity. Sorry if that bothers any of you, but she was tried in a court of law. If you disagree with it, do something to change the law instead of just biotching about it.


BINGO!!! The woman is wacked!!! Even that fact that she mentions that she wants more children shows you she is still lost out there. Like Jeana said, my God does not punish someone like her. What a horrible unfortunate event. What a poor lost soul this woman is.

It is almost impossible for a psychiatrist to pinpoint what is going on in someone's mind and try to treat them if the person seeking help is unable to convey exactly what is going on with them. And then we blindly believe that a simple dose of this medication or that medication will make it all better. Psychiatrists are not God's and I think they can only do so much, as can medication.

Kcksum, you made the following statement about her having made a decision to stop treatement for her illness and others have said this woman had CHOICES!!!! Give me a break! The woman is wacked, she cannot make decisions. Bad choices? The poor woman is a lunatic and totally incapable of making a rational "choice."

Do I believe she should be locked up for the rest of her life - heck yes. Do I believe she should go to "hell" for her behavior - heck no! Death would only be peace for that poor woman, as she has lived a life of HELL here on earth!

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.

[kcksum]

*Sigh*

This is such a difficult thread, I try so hard not to read here because I know if I do I'm gonna respond and ArrGH I hate getting myself worked up over this! The people who feel Andrea had a choice in the matter have obviously never been Psychotic and could never understand what it means to be Psychotic.. when we "discuss" this stuff it goes nowhere and it never will!

Although I know that Andrea was/is insane, I also agree with others when they say she should be locked up for the rest of her life. I just disagree with where they think she should be housed.

I get the feeling that the people that think Andrea should be housed in a prison and not a mental hospital have never been in a mental institution. The way people are writing, it seems y'all think a mental hospital is a fun thing, something that does not offer punishment and rehabilitation.

I can assure you Andrea is not skipping down the halls, having fun, playing tennis etc. There is nothing fun about a nut house, people, N- O- T -H -I- N -G!!! People crying out all night, scared, angry, psychotic, manic, Homicidal, suicidal, delusional etc etc...

Locked wards, sometimes locked rooms.. without anything in the room but a mattress and a video camera that watches you 24-7. Every 15 minutes, all night long, someone enters your room, awakens you with a flashlight shining on your face announcing "Checks!"

Your neighbor just may be a serial killer or a rapist but guess what?! Unlike in prison, HIS bedroom door isn't locked!

Trust me, I'd rather go to prison than a nuthouse... a prison is safer, quieter and probably has better food and at least your murdering neighbor is locked in a cell!!

Andrea is being punished, Andrea is locked up, Andrea is serving her sentence.. with much more dangerous people than you'd ever find in a prison!

I worked at a forensic facility and it was nothing like what you described above. The days of one flew over the cookoo's nest are over. These people have group time, recreation time, movie time, and can earn passes. They get a clothing allowance to go shopping with, and the food is much better than prison.
They have access to computers and a library as well as phone contact and weekly meetings with a therapist.
I would say hard time at a maximum security prison is much worse given that there are drug dealers, gang bangers, and murders committed inside the walls daily. There is also no therapy in most maxiumum security prisons.
Andrea has it better because she would probably have already been attacked many times by women in prison who felt she deserved it after drowning her babies.

[kcksum]

When I say I don't blame Andrea for what she did I do not mean she should not be put in a mental health facility and get medical treatment there.

I do mean that I dont think Andrea should be put in prison or tormented with visions of her dead children for the rest of her life.

I do believe Andrea deserves peace. I think she does punish herself enough for what she did. Andrea will never be normal again.

Also, again, I'd like to read any article that says she wants to have more children. Is there a link anyone or is it just hearsay?
It was not hearsay, and even her husband backed up those reports because she had not only told several women at the facility she wished to have another child, but she told Rusty she wished to have another child. I will look for a link, but it will be deeply archived as it was a couple of years ago.

[kcksum]

BINGO!!! The woman is wacked!!! Even that fact that she mentions that she wants more children shows you she is still lost out there. Like Jeana said, my God does not punish someone like her. What a horrible unfortunate event. What a poor lost soul this woman is.

It is almost impossible for a psychiatrist to pinpoint what is going on in someone's mind and try to treat them if the person seeking help is unable to convey exactly what is going on with them. And then we blindly believe that a simple dose of this medication or that medication will make it all better. Psychiatrists are not God's and I think they can only do so much, as can medication.

Kcksum, you made the following statement about her having made a decision to stop treatement for her illness and others have said this woman had CHOICES!!!! Give me a break! The woman is wacked, she cannot make decisions. Bad choices? The poor woman is a lunatic and totally incapable of making a rational "choice."

Do I believe she should be locked up for the rest of her life - heck yes. Do I believe she should go to "hell" for her behavior - heck no! Death would only be peace for that poor woman, as she has lived a life of HELL here on earth!

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
Again, I have never stated I wanted her to go to hell. That is Gods decision.
I don't have to walk in anyones shoes to know what someone does is right or wrong. I wouldn't have to walk a mile in Ted Bundy's shoes to know he was a freaked out sadist who deserved the lethal injection he received years ago. I do not need to walk in Andrea's shoes to know she was psychotic before she had her 5th child. That should have been a signal that she shouldn't have had baby number 5 since baby number 4 made her a certafiable nut job. She had been put on medications that were improving her life greatly, and then got off of them to have another baby. That is where I fault Andrea (and her husband)She was lucid on meds and that is the testimony of several doctors and family members.Andrea was not always crazy, and was described as an excellant mother. To say medications don't return the mentally ill to lucid human beings capable of making choices is to say that there is no hope for the mentally ill. She is cpable of making choices now, and she has stated she would like to have another baby in that capable state. That speaks volumes to me about how much responsibility she takes for her actions.
I have worked with the mentally ill as a psychitric nurse years ago, and mentally ill adolescents. I am aware how crzy people are when they are psychotic. However, I have less sympathy for criminals who had treatment options and chose to come off of that treatment for selfish reasons(I want another baby, it makes me sleepy,it makes me gain weight) Mind you those all weren't andrea's excuses just different excuses used by people who willingly choose to come off their meds. I have more sympathy say fopr the little homeless guy who murders someone because he thinks they are russian spies. One had treatment options and chose not to use them, the other had none at all.
I hope I made sense there.

[RKnowley]

Ahhhh..if it was a couple years ago she was nowhere NEAR lucid. At times she still thought her children were alive and wondered why they didn't come to visit her (She asked her mother at times how the children were). Then there were times she realized that she had killed her children and she would not eat and was trying to starve herself and they had to forcefully give her IVs. That explains it all.



It was not hearsay, and even her husband backed up those reports because she had not only told several women at the facility she wished to have another child, but she told Rusty she wished to have another child. I will look for a link, but it will be deeply archived as it was a couple of years ago.

[OneLostGrl]

I worked at a forensic facility and it was nothing like what you described above. The days of one flew over the cookoo's nest are over. These people have group time, recreation time, movie time, and can earn passes. They get a clothing allowance to go shopping with, and the food is much better than prison.
They have access to computers and a library as well as phone contact and weekly meetings with a therapist.
I would say hard time at a maximum security prison is much worse given that there are drug dealers, gang bangers, and murders committed inside the walls daily. There is also no therapy in most maxiumum security prisons.
Andrea has it better because she would probably have already been attacked many times by women in prison who felt she deserved it after drowning her babies.

I have never worked in a locked Forensic Psychiatric hospital but my step father lived in one for 4 years after burning down a house with people still in it while Psychotic. As you say, "these people", do indeed have therapy-group and individual. They also are allowed recreation time and or TV time but are not allowed personal television sets in their rooms/cells. Prisoners (in prisons) are allowed their own TV in their cells.

Perhaps the hospital you worked at had good food, my step father lost about 60 lbs while commited because the food was nasty and he didn't eat much of it.

Non-violent patients on open units can earn passes, yes, but even for those non-violent people, a pass isn't earned very easily. Some prisons offer prisoners "weekend" jail time where non-violent offenders can stay for the weekend and go home during the week.

A locked unit is locked for a purpose- to keep people safe from hurting themselves and/or from hurting others. I'm sorry but I'm not buying what you say about patients on a locked ward being allowed to go out to the store shopping for clothes. I don't know where you worked but wow.. what a scary thing if they allowed people on a locked unit to head out into society on a shopping trip!!


Visits are supervised and visitors are separated from the patients by a glass barrier, and personal contact is not allowed. Barrier free time can be earned for non-violent offenders. Unlike in prison, visitors cannot bring or buy food from vending machines for a patient. Phone time is allowed but just like in prison they may only make collect calls and cannot receive direct calls.

As for Libraries, Prisons offer books and computers as well but neither place offers alone time in libraries or on computers. The Internet is not allowed in either place.

Sure prisons have murderers, rapists etc but Psych hospitals have Delusional, psychotic, and/or manic murderers and rapists! Like prison, Neither fellow patients nor doctors are "safe" from attacks in a hospital setting. Crazy people can and do make their own weapons which is why in locked units they are not allowed to have pens, mirrors, matches, scissors etc.

Prisons keep people with like crimes together on units and Prison also offers Solitary confinment where "high profile" prisoners are kept for their own saftey. I have no doubt if Andrea were in prison she'd be in Solitary and if I recall correctly, I think she was before her conviction was overturned.

You try to make it sound as if these people on locked units are allowed to roam freely and take nice shopping trips while on their way to grandmothers house for the weekend.

Now, if you were speaking of an open unit, I might be willing to believe the fairy tale you spelled out for us!

[Details]

I feel so sorry for her. When it comes to dying, and getting what you deserve, her husband is the one with something to fear, not her.

[kcksum]

I have never worked in a locked Forensic Psychiatric hospital but my step father lived in one for 4 years after burning down a house with people still in it while Psychotic. As you say, "these people", do indeed have therapy-group and individual. They also are allowed recreation time and or TV time but are not allowed personal television sets in their rooms/cells. Prisoners (in prisons) are allowed their own TV in their cells.

Perhaps the hospital you worked at had good food, my step father lost about 60 lbs while commited because the food was nasty and he didn't eat much of it.

Non-violent patients on open units can earn passes, yes, but even for those non-violent people, a pass isn't earned very easily. Some prisons offer prisoners "weekend" jail time where non-violent offenders can stay for the weekend and go home during the week.

A locked unit is locked for a purpose- to keep people safe from hurting themselves and/or from hurting others. I'm sorry but I'm not buying what you say about patients on a locked ward being allowed to go out to the store shopping for clothes. I don't know where you worked but wow.. what a scary thing if they allowed people on a locked unit to head out into society on a shopping trip!!


Visits are supervised and visitors are separated from the patients by a glass barrier, and personal contact is not allowed. Barrier free time can be earned for non-violent offenders. Unlike in prison, visitors cannot bring or buy food from vending machines for a patient. Phone time is allowed but just like in prison they may only make collect calls and cannot receive direct calls.

As for Libraries, Prisons offer books and computers as well but neither place offers alone time in libraries or on computers. The Internet is not allowed in either place.

Sure prisons have murderers, rapists etc but Psych hospitals have Delusional, psychotic, and/or manic murderers and rapists! Like prison, Neither fellow patients nor doctors are "safe" from attacks in a hospital setting. Crazy people can and do make their own weapons which is why in locked units they are not allowed to have pens, mirrors, matches, scissors etc.

Prisons keep people with like crimes together on units and Prison also offers Solitary confinment where "high profile" prisoners are kept for their own saftey. I have no doubt if Andrea were in prison she'd be in Solitary and if I recall correctly, I think she was before her conviction was overturned.

You try to make it sound as if these people on locked units are allowed to roam freely and take nice shopping trips while on their way to grandmothers house for the weekend.

Now, if you were speaking of an open unit, I might be willing to believe the fairy tale you spelled out for us!

What purpose would it serve for me to lie and "spell out a fairy tail for you"? You are a complete stranger who I could care less believes me, why would I waste my energy making something up? That was rude, drop the "I know everything cause I visited my stepdad in the hospital" attitude, and either take what I wrote and believe it or not.But, don't insinuate that what I wrote was fairy tails or somehow false or fabricated, it implies that you have no idea how to have a healthy debate. That anyone who doesn't agree with you is "lying" or making things up....that's immature. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Different states have different facility's and spend money on their mental health patients in different ways, maybe your step dad lived in a crappy state. The facility I worked in had both locked and un locked units.
If you don't think prisoners have internet access, you need to do a little research, some of them have whole web pages for crying out loud.Yes, some of Our forensic prisoners were taken on supervised shopping passes all the time. they had a state alloted clothing allowance and were able to buy and try on clothing. They had a two staff members with them at all times. They had to earn that priviledge.Sorry if you don't believe that.
My point was that a psych hospital is in ways better than prison,because it's supposed to be! Isn't the whole idea NOT TO SEND psychotic criminals to a place as bad as prison because they weren't "guilty" by reason of their insanity? The whole idea is that they need supervised THERAPY not punishment. They aren't responsible for their actions, so they get therapy and treatment and are watched and monitored because of their mental illness, not because they are serving time.
How long ago was your stepdad in that hospital? If it was before the mid 1990's I can understand, but in the early to mid 90's sweeping reforms went through the mental health communtiy and a whole lot of things were changed.

[kcksum]

Ahhhh..if it was a couple years ago she was nowhere NEAR lucid. At times she still thought her children were alive and wondered why they didn't come to visit her (She asked her mother at times how the children were). Then there were times she realized that she had killed her children and she would not eat and was trying to starve herself and they had to forcefully give her IVs. That explains it all.
still looking for a link. Maybe she was still coming in and out of a lucid state. Again, I have never said she wasn't mentally ill, I said she needs to shoulder some of the responsibility because she chose to come off of meds and she chose to have that 5th baby.
I do hope she is haunted by the faces of her dead children, because as long as she is haunted by them, she might not want to have anymore to drown in her psychotic mentally ill state.
I will have to say, if her move is a reflection that she is doing better and earned the right to be moved to a more transitional facility, than I promise she is no longer starving herself and getting IV's. That is indicative that she is responding well to therapy. I hope no one ever decides she is "Cured". She can decide to stop her meds again as quickly as she did before. I hope someone in control of her freedom remebers that. I don't want her burning in hell(not my call), I do however want her locked up and forced to make medication the rest of her life.

[RKnowley]

I didn't say that Andrea was starving herself now. You said that Andrea said she wanted to have more children...that she said that a couple of years ago and I explained that I could see her saying that and that at that point she was no where NEAR being lucid.

I found this article that tells about her starving herself:


(6/18/06 - HOUSTON) - Andrea Yates often struggles with deep depression or hallucinations in the weeks around June 20, the date when she drowned her five children in their bathtub in 2001. During that period this year, Yates will be in court for her second murder trial.

Also on ABC13.com:
Send news tips (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=stationinfo&id=3270641) | RSS (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/index?id=3263647) | ABC13 E-lert (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=weather&id=3266838) | Info mentioned on air (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=seenon&id=3251702) | Search abc13.com (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news&id=3844971)Jurors, who will be selected beginning Thursday, will hear largely the same evidence as in Yates' first trial, but they also will hear about her psychotic episodes since her 2002 conviction, which was overturned on appeal, defense attorney George Parnham said.

In 2004, for example, Yates was hospitalized in July after starving herself for up to six weeks, losing about 30 pounds, according to the University of Texas Medical Branch Hospitals' discharge records. She believed she saw "babies yelling for help," the records show.

"We've got four years of mental health records to show she's still severely mentally ill," Parnham said.

Yates is again pleading innocent by reason of insanity. Parnham maintains that severe postpartum psychosis prevented her from knowing that it was wrong to drown her children, ages 6 months to 7 years.

Prosecutors, however, insist that Yates does not meet Texas' legal definition of insanity: not knowing at the time that one's actions are wrong. They plan to present the same evidence showing how Yates killed the children after her husband left for work and before her mother-in-law arrived to help, and how Yates called 911 to report the crime.

More at link: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=4283238



still looking for a link. Maybe she was still coming in and out of a lucid state. Again, I have never said she wasn't mentally ill, I said she needs to shoulder some of the responsibility because she chose to come off of meds and she chose to have that 5th baby.
I do hope she is haunted by the faces of her dead children, because as long as she is haunted by them, she might not want to have anymore to drown in her psychotic mentally ill state.
I will have to say, if her move is a reflection that she is doing better and earned the right to be moved to a more transitional facility, than I promise she is no longer starving herself and getting IV's. That is indicative that she is responding well to therapy. I hope no one ever decides she is "Cured". She can decide to stop her meds again as quickly as she did before. I hope someone in control of her freedom remebers that. I don't want her burning in hell(not my call), I do however want her locked up and forced to make medication the rest of her life.

[julianne]

Too bad they didn't let her starve herself to death. Yeah, I know she's been declared insane, but she sure had enough mental presence to make sure she was alone in the house with the kids, and that no other adult was present to save the kids from their evil witch mothers methodical plan to drown them all.

She's a piece of work. I have NO sympathy for her. The only sympathy I have is for those innocent babies seeing their mothers disgusting face as she held them under the water---even chasing down the oldest one as he tried to get away from her!

[Details]

Too bad they didn't let her starve herself to death. Yeah, I know she's been declared insane, but she sure had enough mental presence to make sure she was alone in the house with the kids, and that no other adult was present to save the kids from their evil witch mothers methodical plan to drown them all. Sure - insane doesn't mean dumb. She knew what she had to do, and knew others would stop her. The insane bit doesn't come with being dumb or clueless about what other people think, the insane bit comes with thinking you are right.

Cutting a person's throat makes you a murderer - right? Or does it make you a surgeon? Only your intent, and what you think you are doing makes the difference, and in an insane brain, they don't know the difference.

[julianne]

Sure - insane doesn't mean dumb. She knew what she had to do, and knew others would stop her. The insane bit doesn't come with being dumb or clueless about what other people think, the insane bit comes with thinking you are right.

Cutting a person's throat makes you a murderer - right? Or does it make you a surgeon? Only your intent, and what you think you are doing makes the difference, and in an insane brain, they don't know the difference.
Hmmm....good post and good points, details. You're making me think.

OK, but if the insane bit comes with thinking you are right, then all criminals could declare insanity, right? The man who shoots the guy his wife is sleeping with believes he is doing what is right---is he insane? The dumb teenagers who think they are right to go beat on homeless people----are they insane? What's the difference and where does the line get drawn?? Is it only applicable to the most heinous of crimes?

[Nore]

then you infered wrong from reading my post. Never once did I say she wasn't mentally ill. It is obvious this woman was in a state of psychosis. A state that she had been in before and had been prescribed meds for that SHE chose to stop taking. SHE chose to stay married to a man that insited she remain pregnant and insisted she get off of her meds. Andrea Yates should have to shoulder some of the responsability here .....that's all I am saying.
I comented that she is now on meds and in a lucid state. It is in this lucid state of normalcy that Andrea has stated her wish to have another baby.....not in her psychotic state, in her well state. That to me says she has no remorse for the lives she has taken up to now.That she must not see herself as a bad mother, because she thinks she is "well" enough to take another crack at it. This is a woman who claims pregnancy in itself made her psychotic enough to drown her children, and now wants to have another pregnancy. That is like a serial killer claiming pornography made him kill, and asking to have a stack of porno mags delivered to him.
I also never mentioned God's judgement. I talked about how I wanted her to be haunted by the faces of the children she chose to murder, and how I personally judge her. Don't confuse how I would judge her with they way God would judge her.I would never assume how God will choose to judge anyone, he's God, only he gets to make that call.
I also never was "Biotching" about the law. I think it sucks that anyone who kills five babies gets to eat three meals a day and enjoy living.....mentally ill or not......they are a menace to society, dangerous to society, and serve no purpose but to eat up tax dollars. I feel that way about all child murderers, regardless of their mental state. I also know that my opinion on that matter will never change any law in this country because most people don't feel that way.
I have no sympathy for Andrea yates, I have much sympathy for her children and those left behind who loved them. She chose to get off of her meds, she chose to keep having babies even though she knew having them put her in a mentally ill state. She made choices that led to the demise of five innocent children. Mentally ill or not, her choices are the biggest reason she is where she is today. For the record,I also think her husband should be charged as an accessory.
-----------------------

kcksum,I find it hard to believe she doesn't feel or I should say voice any remorse!! I agree with you. If there is any chance of her ever being released back into society she should be spayed. I realize this is not the proper word,I just think it is fitting.To my way of thinking Andrea should never be released.The meds. were stopped once and she'd do it again.My feelings on poor Rusty~he should be in a padded cell.Anyone who couldnt see her as insane is nuts himself.How on Gods Earth could he go off to work and leave her alone???

[Nore]

Andrea thought she saw "babies yelling for help". I call that flashbacks.

[julianne]

Andrea thought she saw "babies yelling for help". I call that flashbacks.
Good observation...I bet it was flashbacks, because we all know that her babies were indeed yelling for help when she drowned them.

[Details]

Hmmm....good post and good points, details. You're making me think.

OK, but if the insane bit comes with thinking you are right, then all criminals could declare insanity, right? The man who shoots the guy his wife is sleeping with believes he is doing what is right---is he insane? The dumb teenagers who think they are right to go beat on homeless people----are they insane? What's the difference and where does the line get drawn?? Is it only applicable to the most heinous of crimes?Nope, insane is insane. If they are so far out that they don't understand right from wrong - you think shooting your wife is helping her, doing a good deed, doing the right thing, even if the police will hurt you for it - you're insane all right! If you're shoplifting, and doing it for an insane reason, it applies there. But we usually don't hear about those cases -they just get sent off to the psych ward.

But it's not just for a little tiny bit nuts, or so self-centered you don't care about your wife, so you don't figure shooting her is wrong, because she hurt you, and that's all you care about - you have to be truely insane, not just a little ethically challenged, deciding that someone hurting your feelings is fairly revenged by killing them - insane is completely topsy turvey - right is wrong, wrong is right. It's not something that happens without a trace. Andrea Yates is one of the very few. You see signs everywhere - her years of history, the way she had stopped taking care of herself, how her husband knew enough to know she couldn't be left alone with the children. It's not just a defense that is just picked out, it's something that can be seen showing through in someone's life.

I think we all like to think we have control over our thoughts and our actions. And to a large extent we do. But our brain chemistry can override that all, and just completely change who we are, what the world is to us. It's horrible and sad, and just not a choice, not something you can just be strong enough to fight. Andrea had many bad years, getting worse and worse, then just to push her over the edge, she was abruptly taken off of an anti-psychotic medication that you are NEVER, EVER supposed to be abruptly taken off of - it's the type of drug you should be slowly weaned from. Both on past history, her recent history, and that drug, all of them just show that she is plain insane.

[OneLostGrl]

What purpose would it serve for me to lie and "spell out a fairy tail for you"? You are a complete stranger who I could care less believes me, why would I waste my energy making something up? That was rude, drop the "I know everything cause I visited my stepdad in the hospital" attitude, and either take what I wrote and believe it or not.But, don't insinuate that what I wrote was fairy tails or somehow false or fabricated, it implies that you have no idea how to have a healthy debate. That anyone who doesn't agree with you is "lying" or making things up....that's immature. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Different states have different facility's and spend money on their mental health patients in different ways, maybe your step dad lived in a crappy state. The facility I worked in had both locked and un locked units.
If you don't think prisoners have internet access, you need to do a little research, some of them have whole web pages for crying out loud.Yes, some of Our forensic prisoners were taken on supervised shopping passes all the time. they had a state alloted clothing allowance and were able to buy and try on clothing. They had a two staff members with them at all times. They had to earn that priviledge.Sorry if you don't believe that.
My point was that a psych hospital is in ways better than prison,because it's supposed to be! Isn't the whole idea NOT TO SEND psychotic criminals to a place as bad as prison because they weren't "guilty" by reason of their insanity? The whole idea is that they need supervised THERAPY not punishment. They aren't responsible for their actions, so they get therapy and treatment and are watched and monitored because of their mental illness, not because they are serving time.
How long ago was your stepdad in that hospital? If it was before the mid 1990's I can understand, but in the early to mid 90's sweeping reforms went through the mental health communtiy and a whole lot of things were changed.


That's amusing...As if I'm proud to be mentally ill or proud to come from a family chock full of mental illness. The last thing I am is proud- it's kind of embarrassing to be honest. I wish a text book were the only education I had in mental illness.

I called you on your statements- therefore I'm immature and unable to debate in a healthy manner? I never called you a liar- I simply disagreed with you and offered my own fu$*ed up reality as the basis for MY truths! People that live in glass houses.. blah blah.

Do you honestly believe the "whole idea" of Forensic psych hospitals are to make things easier for criminals found not guilty by reason of insanity? I gotta tell ya, that's disconcerning! My guess would have been that during commitment the Psych team would identify and provide a successful transition to whatever level of care is appropriate for each individual.

Wow, I thought the "whole idea" was to lock these people up because they are dangerously, violently insane! Therapy and locked wards protect society from them while they are dangerous. While hospitalized they are being punished (as well as treated).. perhaps not the way you think they should be but the way the legal system decided it should be! But they are indeed "serving time".

The main concept is to be able to monitor and evaluate the patients mental status on a daily basis. To work on "getting them sane" so they could eventually be transfered to a Prison to continue paying for their crimes against society. The majority of them will continue their incarceration in prison with medication maintenance. Which is why there is an emphasis on developing skills that are aimed at maximizing their ability to adapt to living in prison!

Prisons do not offer the internet to inmates... what you may be thinking of is loved ones and others fighing the death penalty make web pages for prisoners and update it for them but they themselves do not have the Internet.


If your problem is with the law itself- why not work to change those laws? I hate nothing more than people blaming their bad behavior on mental illness and would love to see changes in the laws regarding insanity defenses. However, I do believe that there are a small amount of people who truly are insane and it'd be an injustice to *them* to ebolish the insanity defense.

*I* believe Andrea Yates was/is insane BUT I also believe she is choosing to remain insane. Her own lawyer said that every time they manage to get her sane her only reality is that she murdered her own babies. I can't say that I blame her- if I killed my children I wouldn't want to face it either!

I pray to God this woman never sees the light of day again. Not because I hate her but because she crossed a line- sane or not- and lost her right to live amoungst us!! Sure I feel bad for her, she's nuts, a fruit loop but I feel worse for her poor kids!

Every state has both maximum, medium and minimum security. The units I have been refering to are the locked ones (maximum security). The state my step father was hospitalized in is a ****ty state because they don't let dangerous mentally ill patients go out shopping in a store?? Seems to me he lived in a good state because they keep their dangerous patients on a locked ward!! Any state that locks up dangerous people, sane or insane, is doing something right as far as I'm concerned!

Locked units for the violently mentally ill are highly structured with 24 hour supervision. The job of the staff is to protect society while treating the illness.

I'd love to be able to discuss things and have a debate with you but this isn't one of those things... Yep, you went to school and have a degree and nope, I have no degree. I simply go by the truths that I have lived. You choose to see the things I have shared as an attitude when in fact they are the sad but true examples of mental illness and Psych hospitals that I have experienced. I don't know all because I and other members of my family have been hospitalized I just know some and figured others may like to hear my experience to get a better feel for what life in a maximum security state hospital.

I don't think your shoes would fit me and I'm sure mine wouldn't fit you but that doesn't give us the right to call each other names and put words in one anothers mouths :hand: (keyboards?! :) )

I hope you have a good Monday. :)

[kcksum]

That's amusing...As if I'm proud to be mentally ill or proud to come from a family chock full of mental illness. The last thing I am is proud- it's kind of embarrassing to be honest. I wish a text book were the only education I had in mental illness.


Not sure where all the hurt feelings are stemming from, you're the one who was bold enough to say that my version of a psych hospital was no more than a fairy tale. Fairy tales are false stories, so wether you meant it or not, you were implying that what i was saying was false and made up. Don't come on here trying to twist it around to say I am the one who called you a liar and wasn't interested in honest debate. You are the one who started the mud slinging, go back and re-read.
I am not sure where you inferred that because I have a degree I felt like I was better than you, I never even so much as implied that, you must have issues there. I believe everyone has input to any and all discussions, no matter what level of education they have. I believe when people assume they are the be all and know all that debates turns into ugly nasty arguments.I believe no one should ever assume anyone is lying or not telling the truth, I believe to say so, is to call for that person to defend themself. You inferred I was spewing fairy tales, I defended myself. Don't stir things up and then play the hurt feelings card. It just makes the debate nastier and less inviting.

[curious1]

OneLostGirl....I get your point. There are psych hospitals where you go if you have a nervous breakdown or you try to harm yourself. Then there are the ones where you get sent to if you, say set a building on fire with people inside, or drown your children because you think you are saving them. I get the difference in the two. I have been in the first myself for treatment and would NEVER want to go the the other one. There is a big difference in the two.

[lavonne]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

[Nore]

Sure - insane doesn't mean dumb. She knew what she had to do, and knew others would stop her. The insane bit doesn't come with being dumb or clueless about what other people think, the insane bit comes with thinking you are right.

Cutting a person's throat makes you a murderer - right? Or does it make you a surgeon? Only your intent, and what you think you are doing makes the difference, and in an insane brain, they don't know the difference.
-------------------------

What I cant understand is the insane bit comes with thinking you are right,please, why did she call 911 and report a crime? If she were right wouldn't she think of it not as a crime but as something that needed to be done? Honestly I have tried to figure this out and cannot come up with an answer.The 911 bugs me.Take care.

[Details]

-------------------------

What I cant understand is the insane bit comes with thinking you are right,please, why did she call 911 and report a crime? If she were right wouldn't she think of it not as a crime but as something that needed to be done? Honestly I have tried to figure this out and cannot come up with an answer.The 911 bugs me.Take care.Right and wrong don't always match to legal and illegal. She knew she was committing a crime - but also believed what she was doing was right. She thought she was a horrible, evil person, and a lousy mother - such a lousy mother that she was destroying her children, sending them to Hell - literally. But she could save them from Hell by sending them to Heaven - again literally. It's a crime, they don't want to go, but it's the best thing for the children.

[Details]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.???? Did nothing? There's a - what was it - something like a 6-7 year history of doing all kinds of things. Doctors, meds, hospitals. Rusty was the sane one, he could see she was insane - you can't expect an insane person to make the reasoned choice. She went with his decisions, and with what her doctor decided.

If, she knew. I don't know how you are so sure of that - or that if she knew, that she could do something.

[curious1]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.
I am afraid it is not that simple. I can only speak about depression, but yes there is a time where you 'know', but there is so much stigma attached to it and if you reach out for help people will know and you will be judged. So it makes it hard. But I do think that if I were having thoughts of hurting my pets I would say 'whoa' screw what anybody thinks I need help and I need it now. So I cannot understand someone who has thoughts of hurting their children not realizing how serious it is.

[Jeana (DP)]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.


Not legally, but you're right. She'll have to live with herself every day.

[OneLostGrl]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

lavonne-

In my case,yes, absolutely there was a period where I knew I was loosing myself. I knew throughout my entire life that I wasn't "right" in the head but I especially knew after I gave birth to my son that I was worse than ever.

But between the mania's, the depression and the mixed states where I became Psychotic and heard voices- I went to doctors, I cried out for help and although it took quite some time for a diagnosis, in the mean time- I was put on some medications that made the illness seem *easy* to live with.

I was put on medications that seemed to make my stove move across the kitchen (Orap, Haldol) that made me feel as if I were crazy glued to my bed (Thorazine) or made my suicidal thoughts worse than before (Prozac). I too went off of the drugs that were far worse than my Bipolar itself.

But I didn't kill anyone, let alone my own children so obviously I can't begin to imagine how far gone Andrea was. But in my experience, there does come a time where you literally lose touch with reaity. It's a race against the clock, trying to find the right medications before that happens. Mental illness is a progressive illness. The longer it is left untreated the worse it gets.

Quite some time ago I did talk about there being a time where I know I could have hurt my son but I got out of the house and called someone to take my child from the house and then put myself in the hospital again. Having been sick and having gotten well, I know without a doubt in my mind that if it ever came down to hurting my child, I'd kill myself first. So, again, I do not know what Andrea went through, only what I went through therefore I can't speak for her.

I'm not here making excuses for Andrea Yates or anyone else with a mental illness, I'm just sharing what I lived through as perhaps a glimpse into half of what Andrea lived through. I too think she should be punished for the rest of her life I just think that punishment should take place in a maximum security hospital.

Prisons and the guards in them are not trained in handling severe mental illness and the unprovoked violence that can come with Psychosis... Many people that are Psychotic believe others are out to hurt *them*. I don't think Prison is equipped to handle the emotions and anger that are bound to come when a woman becomes sane enough to finally come to terms with the fact that she took the life of her children.

ETA: Thanks for your response to me earlier, curious1.

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm just sharing what I lived through as perhaps a glimpse into half of what Andrea lived through.


Thank you for hanging in there on this thread and trying to help us understand a little bit about the medications and the cycle of mental illness. Its a tremendous help!!

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you for hanging in there on this thread and trying to help us understand a little bit about the medications and the cycle of mental illness. Its a tremendous help!!

Thanks for gettin' what my intent is, Jeana.

I'm certainly not "proud" to be mentally ill but in order to ever end the stigma surrounding mental illness, people like me *must* speak up.

[Jeana (DP)]

Thanks for gettin' what my intent is, Jeana.

I'm certainly not "proud" to be mentally ill but in order to ever end the stigma surrounding mental illness, people like me *must* speak up.

Absolutely!!! The stigma must be removed or more people and their families will suffer needlessly.

[RKnowley]

Would a sane person who had just killed somebody call 911 and then wait patiently (drinking a diet coke while waiting) for the police to show up and then confess to killing her children and lead the police to the bodies?

Wouldn't it be normal for someone who had killed someone to try and hide the crime and run? Andrea thought it was time for her to be punished and that is why she called 911 and wanted the police to come. She thought they should take her and that the Texas Gov. George Bush (He was actually the president at the time but she thought he was still the Gov of Texas) should give her the death penalty and put her to death in order to get rid of the devil.

So while she knew it was a crime to kill her children she did it in order to save the children from the devil and eternal damnation.


-------------------------

What I cant understand is the insane bit comes with thinking you are right,please, why did she call 911 and report a crime? If she were right wouldn't she think of it not as a crime but as something that needed to be done? Honestly I have tried to figure this out and cannot come up with an answer.The 911 bugs me.Take care.

[OneLostGrl]

What purpose would it serve for me to lie and "spell out a fairy tail for you"? You are a complete stranger who I could care less believes me, why would I waste my energy making something up? That was rude, drop the "I know everything cause I visited my stepdad in the hospital" attitude, and either take what I wrote and believe it or not.But, don't insinuate that what I wrote was fairy tails or somehow false or fabricated, it implies that you have no idea how to have a healthy debate. That anyone who doesn't agree with you is "lying" or making things up....that's immature. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Different states have different facility's and spend money on their mental health patients in different ways, maybe your step dad lived in a crappy state. The facility I worked in had both locked and un locked units.
If you don't think prisoners have internet access, you need to do a little research, some of them have whole web pages for crying out loud.Yes, some of Our forensic prisoners were taken on supervised shopping passes all the time. they had a state alloted clothing allowance and were able to buy and try on clothing. They had a two staff members with them at all times. They had to earn that priviledge.Sorry if you don't believe that.
My point was that a psych hospital is in ways better than prison,because it's supposed to be! Isn't the whole idea NOT TO SEND psychotic criminals to a place as bad as prison because they weren't "guilty" by reason of their insanity? The whole idea is that they need supervised THERAPY not punishment. They aren't responsible for their actions, so they get therapy and treatment and are watched and monitored because of their mental illness, not because they are serving time.
How long ago was your stepdad in that hospital? If it was before the mid 1990's I can understand, but in the early to mid 90's sweeping reforms went through the mental health communtiy and a whole lot of things were changed.

Here is an interesting article I came across while reading things having to do with a different thread here and it made me think of this thread while reading it. So I'll put it here rather than over there to allow the others here to be able to decide for themselves what life in a state mental hospital can be like.

Although this was written in 2001 and is 6 years old or so, it is years past the 1990's "sweeping reforms" you were refering to..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/07/22/MN122212.DTL

"Shortly after midnight on Christmas, Orrin Patrick, a 45-year-old mentally ill patient at Napa State Hospital, led a young orderly into the starkly lit dayroom on Unit T-7.

There, lying in a pool of blood on the speckled linoleum floor, was John Reed, 48, of Yuba City. He had been pummeled in the face and strangled.

To hospital employees and patients' rights advocates, Reed's slaying exposes a fundamental flaw in California's mental health system: Criminally inclined, often violent patients are now in the majority at state hospitals - and the hospitals are ill-equipped to handle them.

The problem has reached a critical stage at Napa State Hospital, which has a severe employee shortage and where staff members are given only rudimentary training on how to deal with criminal behavior. With more than 100 job vacancies at the hospital, the nursing staff has barely enough time to clothe, feed and medicate patients, let alone deal with violent outbursts.

"This particular death is the result of some serious long-term problems in providing care for people who have been committed to this hospital," said social worker Joan Bartos, who worked at Napa State Hospital until a year ago. "It's not a safe place for patients to be treated. It's also a very dangerous place for staff."

In the last four years, the once sleepy campus-style hospital has become a holding pen for men and woman incompetent to stand trial on criminal charges or found not guilty of crimes by reason of insanity. It is a dramatic shift from its founding purpose: Since 1875, the hospital had mainly served mentally ill patients committed by civil courts....."

Much more @ link. Yeah, like this is a nicer place than prison- no one here being punished or at risk of being murdered!

The world hasn't changed that much and people housed in these hospitals *are* indeed being punished and living in fear of other inmates just like in Prisons.. except in prison, the cells of violent, maximum security prisoners are locked- the doors in these places are not!

[OneLostGrl]

Here is another write up that talks about the insanity defense- for those who are interested...

"Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity: Ticket to freedom"-

"In popular fiction, whether it be literature or movies, you will often come across stories in which an offender is trying to get off scott-free for their crimes by pleading not guilty by reason of insanity (or mental defect). Usually it is considered a 'temporary' insanity in which they claim they are no longer aflicted by. Usually the court finds them not guilty and they are free to go.

"Reality, however, is not quite like fiction. First of all, the sure number of attempts at the insanity defense in fiction may cause the layman to believe that this is a common occurance. This is clearly not the case. An attempt to be found not guilty on this grounds is so rare that members of the criminal justice system could easily go their entire careers with out coming across a single case of this type.

A second non-reality factor is the 'temporary' insanity defense. Sure temporary break downs of ones mental health occure. However, a situation in which a person is driven by a completely unstopable rage is so unlikely that its occurance is nearly impossible. Even the most traumatized individuals tend to clearly know the difference between right and wrong..."

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/forensic_psychology/38753

[kcksum]

Here is an interesting article I came across while reading things having to do with a different thread here and it made me think of this thread while reading it. So I'll put it here rather than over there to allow the others here to be able to decide for themselves what life in a state mental hospital can be like.

Although this was written in 2001 and is 6 years old or so, it is years past the 1990's "sweeping reforms" you were refering to..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/07/22/MN122212.DTL

"Shortly after midnight on Christmas, Orrin Patrick, a 45-year-old mentally ill patient at Napa State Hospital, led a young orderly into the starkly lit dayroom on Unit T-7.

There, lying in a pool of blood on the speckled linoleum floor, was John Reed, 48, of Yuba City. He had been pummeled in the face and strangled.

To hospital employees and patients' rights advocates, Reed's slaying exposes a fundamental flaw in California's mental health system: Criminally inclined, often violent patients are now in the majority at state hospitals - and the hospitals are ill-equipped to handle them.

The problem has reached a critical stage at Napa State Hospital, which has a severe employee shortage and where staff members are given only rudimentary training on how to deal with criminal behavior. With more than 100 job vacancies at the hospital, the nursing staff has barely enough time to clothe, feed and medicate patients, let alone deal with violent outbursts.

"This particular death is the result of some serious long-term problems in providing care for people who have been committed to this hospital," said social worker Joan Bartos, who worked at Napa State Hospital until a year ago. "It's not a safe place for patients to be treated. It's also a very dangerous place for staff."

In the last four years, the once sleepy campus-style hospital has become a holding pen for men and woman incompetent to stand trial on criminal charges or found not guilty of crimes by reason of insanity. It is a dramatic shift from its founding purpose: Since 1875, the hospital had mainly served mentally ill patients committed by civil courts....."

Much more @ link. Yeah, like this is a nicer place than prison- no one here being punished or at risk of being murdered!

The world hasn't changed that much and people housed in these hospitals *are* indeed being punished and living in fear of other inmates just like in Prisons.. except in prison, the cells of violent, maximum security prisoners are locked- the doors in these places are not!

and your point is?????????
Which way do you want it? Do you want Andrea in prison so she can be protected from being pummeld, or do you want her in a mental institution because she isn't guilty by reason of insanity? So there are flaws in the system. The original point for this thread was to discuss ANDREA. Obviously she is being treated well in a nice facility or we would have heard of her pummeling and subsequent death by now.I can't speak for California, all I know is the two facility's I worked for in the state of KY were very nice and the patients were given MUCH oportunity to have therapy and reform done on them. Wouldn't lie to you about this, have no reason to. I am not sure why you keep trying to prove my statement wrong. It is from my own personal experience, nothing else, hope that clarify's this issue for you.:doh: :doh: :doh:

[OneLostGrl]

and your point is?????????
Which way do you want it? Do you want Andrea in prison so she can be protected from being pummeld, or do you want her in a mental institution because she isn't guilty by reason of insanity? So there are flaws in the system. The original point for this thread was to discuss ANDREA. Obviously she is being treated well in a nice facility or we would have heard of her pummeling and subsequent death by now.I can't speak for California, all I know is the two facility's I worked for in the state of KY were very nice and the patients were given MUCH oportunity to have therapy and reform done on them. Wouldn't lie to you about this, have no reason to. I am not sure why you keep trying to prove my statement wrong. It is from my own personal experience, nothing else, hope that clarify's this issue for you.:doh: :doh: :doh:


My point, kcksum, is that people, not only you, have been saying on this thread and the older Yates threads that Andrea is not being punished because she was found not guilty by reason of insanity and is in a Forensic hospital rather than Prison. It has been implied , several times, that she may be having a grand time while locked up in the facility.

My point is that Forensic hospitals DO practice punishment as well as therapy. My point is that a locked ward is not a fun place! She is locked up, she is being punished and she should stay locked up for the rest of her life!! But I think she should remain locked up in a place where we know she is also getting the treatment she so obviously needs along with keeping her off of our streets!

So those are my points- I'm not directing this stuff at you, kcksum, although I used your quote about your experience with Forensic hospitals, I was trying to show that Andrea is indeed being punished-she doesn't need to be in a Prison for that to happen... it's part of what happens in the hospital she is commited to as well!

It has nothing to do with how I want anything to be- I'm giving links and information on what happens to people, and where they go, after being found not guilty by reason of insanity- in a thread that is discussing someone who was found not guilty by reason of insanity! :banghead:

[kcksum]

My point, kcksum, is that people, not only you, have been saying on this thread and the older Yates threads that Andrea is not being punished because she was found not guilty by reason of insanity and is in a Forensic hospital rather than Prison. It has been implied , several times, that she may be having a grand time while locked up in the facility.

My point is that Forensic hospitals DO practice punishment as well as therapy. My point is that a locked ward is not a fun place! She is locked up, she is being punished and she should stay locked up for the rest of her life!! But I think she should remain locked up in a place where we know she is also getting the treatment she so obviously needs along with keeping her off of our streets!

So those are my points- I'm not directing this stuff at you, kcksum, although I used your quote about your experience with Forensic hospitals, I was trying to show that Andrea is indeed being punished-she doesn't need to be in a Prison for that to happen... it's part of what happens in the hospital she is commited to as well!

It has nothing to do with how I want anything to be- I'm giving links and information on what happens to people, and where they go, after being found not guilty by reason of insanity- in a thread that is discussing someone who was found not guilty by reason of insanity! :banghead:

it's obvious this discussion is getting under your skin by way of your bold type and itallics. I did not mean to start an argument. move on......please. It isn't that important to me really.

[Jeana (DP)]

it's obvious this discussion is getting under your skin by way of your bold type and itallics. I did not mean to start an argument. move on......please. It isn't that important to me really.


Then stop answering her posts. OK?

[KarlK]

Yes Andrea did chose to be off her meds and a lot of MENTALLY ILL individuals do. They do not think they are ill and don't think they need meds. Some think that their medication is being poisoned and therefore stop taking it (They are paranoid) for that reason.

Excellent point. Yes it's not a good idea to stop taking meds when you're insane but hey, insane people do insane stuff. I don't understand why some people here accept that Yates was pronounced not guilty because she is insane and yet blame her for not taking her prescribed drugs as if she should have been rational in this regard when she obviously wasn't, insanity is not selective. This woman should have been institutionalized long before the murders according to people who knew her, her condition was wayyyyy beyond postpartum depression.

[reb]

and sadly,, her husband had too much faith in his religion and was waaaaayyyyyy beyond denial.

[Details]

And her doctor took her off her meds - a strong one you are never supposed to cut off that sharply.

The insanity defense is ridiculous, outrageous, insulting... except for the rare case where it really applies, and there it is essential. Andrea Yates is one of those rare cases.

[reb]

unless i missed something.. i don't think anyone has brought up the possible built-in 'darwin' factor of this kind of infanticide. i really believe that those who are that psychotic often kill their children in order to prevent their own genes from being carried on.. plus they know they can't care for them so they kill them so no others will raise them, or they won't get carried off by a wolf, or starve or something. kind of built-in euthanasia system. it's a phenomenon that no one has really researched (well.. maybe they have & i just don't know about it!) it's nothing new, really... it's happened throughout history when women who happen to be unstable or sick or are starving and in poverty have been left alone with their children, to fend for themselves... remember we have been cavemen for far, far longer than we have been civilized human beings... and in this case the gentic built-in mechanism took over. (IMO).

obviously it's a complex case and the blame lies a little bit on everyone. rusty, perhaps her family for not being more aware and stepping in, DEFEINITELY the doctor, and maybe a little bit of Andrea herself for not being more vocal about what she was experiencing (which was probably terrifying). i don't think rusty meant to be neglectful.. he just seemed to be an optimistic guy who wanted a large family (and she said she did too).. plus obviously (and, unfortunately) they didn't believe in birth control. they believed it was up to "god" and not them to decide how many kids they should have... and although he did help andrea get treatment, he ultimately kept hoping for the best and kept having faith that things would be alright and everything would be normal again. kind of hard to blame him for that. and as for andrea, obviously she loved her kids and took good care fo them before she snapped. how many times have you heard "i thought i was saving them by killing them" (especially by women who have gone insane from too much religion)...? by all acounts she was a loving mom and then she snapped... in her mind she was helping them. but this kind of insanity is FAR different from the sociopathic behavior you tend to see in males.. those who stalk their prey and have piles of bodies under their houses... THAT is true evil to me. whereas this is an unfortunate psychotic break. and no, i'm not just 'letting her off the hook' because she's female.. i truly believe there is a huge difference between this and the way most criminal behavior works. obviously there is huge difference between her and some selfish person who kills their kids for the insurance money or to get drugs, or to get back at her husband. i.e., the outcome of this was truly 'evil'... but the cause was that she was psychotic... not an inherently evil, bad, sociopathic person.
but on another level (comparing her with other psychopaths).. IMO there is also a big diff between andrea and other psychopaths such as john wayne gacy, jeffert dahmer & ed gein. obviously she did not hunt down victims for years to kill them and do strange, bizarre things with their bodies. she was a good loving mom, with mental problems,, who suddenly snapped and killed her kids.
i think the courts made the best possible decision.. the only other one being humane euthanasia (which probably would have been more merciful considering what she has to live with)... and again i don't think any one person is at fault here.. sometimes there are just tragedies that are a lot of factors building up and then something bad happens. the main factor here being, that she seems to have some kind of genetic flaw, a predisposition for psychosis, that was brought on by stress & postpartum depression.... and whose fault is that...? it just happens that way sometimes.

[KarlK]

and sadly,, her husband had too much faith in his religion and was waaaaayyyyyy beyond denial.

I agree 100%. In fact I had a very similar line in my original post but I edited it out to avoid controversy. :chicken:

[OneLostGrl]

Wow- very insightful post! No kidding.. it's crazy enough to make sense, reb! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Susan Smith drowned her Children for a "man", and is put in prison. Andrea Yates drowned her Children for "God" and she is deemed mentally insane and is put in a mental institution. Something seems terribly wrong here. How come if you kill your kids because the guy you are dating doesn't want kids, you are just a common murderer, but if you kill your kids so that they will go to heaven instead of hell you are insane. There is no difference in these women. They both killed their children, and they both premeditated their actions. They should both be locked up in the same place.

[Jeana (DP)]

Susan Smith drowned her Children for a "man", and is put in prison. Andrea Yates drowned her Children for "God" and she is deemed mentally insane and is put in a mental institution. Something seems terribly wrong here. How come if you kill your kids because the guy you are dating doesn't want kids, you are just a common murderer, but if you kill your kids so that they will go to heaven instead of hell you are insane. There is no difference in these women. They both killed their children, and they both premeditated their actions. They should both be locked up in the same place.

Seems to me you've got both ends of the spectrum covered.

[KarlK]

Susan Smith drowned her Children for a "man", and is put in prison. Andrea Yates drowned her Children for "God" and she is deemed mentally insane and is put in a mental institution. Something seems terribly wrong here. How come if you kill your kids because the guy you are dating doesn't want kids, you are just a common murderer, but if you kill your kids so that they will go to heaven instead of hell you are insane. There is no difference in these women. They both killed their children, and they both premeditated their actions. They should both be locked up in the same place.

Even though both women committed the same crime (for different reasons) I believe that due process was followed. In our justice system the first two things a court must determine is if the accused is fit to stand trial and, if found fit to stand trial (not the same as being found sane), if the accused was able to tell right from wrong at the moment of the crime. Both women were found fit to stand trial and initially both were convicted of first-degree murder. But there are major differences between these two cases, starting with the locale.

It is important here to keep in mind that in many states Yates would probably not have been found fit to stand trial because she was obviously nuts but in the most judicially conservative state in the Union one would have to be one heck of a raving lunatic freshly escaped from the Beyond Hopeless wing of a maximum-security mental institution in order to be found unfit to stand trial, which would result in an automatic acquittal on the grounds of insanity. There are politics and PR at play in such situations, the state must ensure that the public is convinced that every other avenue other than insanity has been explored to explain the motivation for the crime before a verdict of not guilty can be reached. This also explains why in Texas verdicts of insanity are almost always the prerogative of higher (appellate) courts where the risk of political repercussions for the prosecution (DA, Sheriff) is greatly reduced. A good indication that the prosecution is aware from the start that an accused meets the legal definition of insanity is the fact that once such a verdict is reached in an appellate court it is almost never appealed. Of course the judge presiding at the first trial may not be overly thrilled by the fact that his court's verdict will be overturned but he/she knows that's the way it has to be for junior judges and they can always blame the jury, it's not a career killer.

There is little doubt that Andrea Yates was obviously, totally, completely insane and that the reason she wasn't locked up in a mental ward long before she committed murder is due to her husband's well-meaning but misguided faith and naive idealism, combined with Dr. Saeed's incompetence and/or negligence. Yates' motive for killing her children were not anchored in reality, these motives were the product of a sick mind.

Smith's crimes were in contrast the product of a sicko mind. She knew exactly why she was doing it and she lied about it until the evidence against her was so overwhelming that she had no other choice but to confess. She may have had a personality disorder but deception is not insanity, insane people don't fabricate stories implicating other people to cover up their role in a crime. They don't need to because they are convinced they haven't committed a crime, that their actions were justified.

Personally I dislike seeing cunning criminals get away with a crime because they have managed to convince a court that they are or were legally insane when they commited the offense but in the case of Andrea Yates I have no doubt that she was nowhere near sane when she killed her children and that this would not have happened had she been treated properly for her condition. Hopefully the physicians who didn't perform their duties properly will somehow have to answer for their conduct so that they and their colleagues will be more vigilant towards the patients in their care in the future. I don't think AMA's or other medical review boards' slap on the wrist qualify as proper sanction since these are self-regulating bodies prone to put the blame anywhere but with one of their own.

[Jeana (DP)]

Excellent post Karlk

[reb]

onelostgirl... you're welcome, anytime! ;)

karl-- sick and sicko... hhhmm. good point and interesting,, the difference in those words....!

[OneLostGrl]

Even though both women committed the same crime (for different reasons) I believe that due process was followed. In our justice system the first two things a court must determine is if the accused is fit to stand trial and, if found fit to stand trial (not the same as being found sane), if the accused was able to tell right from wrong at the moment of the crime. Both women were found fit to stand trial and initially both were convicted of first-degree murder. But there are major differences between these two cases, starting with the locale.

QUOTED EDITED BY MODERATOR DUE TO SPACE CONSIDERATIONS

:clap: :clap: :clap: Excellent post!

Sadly, there are still people in our society that do not believe that mental illness is real. In some ways I can even understand why- so many people blame and excuse their impulsive, childish, selfish and/or criminal behavior on mental illness that when society does see an actual case of "insanity", we are so jaded from the people who have been crying wolf that we blow off the "real" case! We (society) assume they are faking it too.

[AmandaBrown23]

Did someone say she wanted another kid? Omg please tell me that is not true.

[WendyElizabeth]

I totaly agree 110% with Jeana post...

Jeana, thank you so much for your articulate and insightful posts on Andrea Yates. If anybody should be found not guilty by reason of insanity it is she. Remember, everyone, she had been hospitalized prior to this incident and her mother in law was staying with her and the family because they were so worried.

Now, would I feel comfortable staying on the same hall as Andrea? Frankly, no. Wonder if she has another psychotic break and tries to drown me? But this problem is taken care of at alzheimer's homes (where my mother was). Very disturbed patients who could be violent to others or themselves had a personal nurse. My strong hope is that Andrea has such a person watching her at all times.

This Andrea Yates case is a no-brainer. There are many more troubling insanity cases -- John Hinckley, for one -- to worry about.

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana, thank you so much for your articulate and insightful posts on Andrea Yates. If anybody should be found not guilty by reason of insanity it is she. Remember, everyone, she had been hospitalized prior to this incident and her mother in law was staying with her and the family because they were so worried.

Now, would I feel comfortable staying on the same hall as Andrea? Frankly, no. Wonder if she has another psychotic break and tries to drown me? But this problem is taken care of at alzheimer's homes (where my mother was). Very disturbed patients who could be violent to others or themselves had a personal nurse. My strong hope is that Andrea has such a person watching her at all times.

This Andrea Yates case is a no-brainer. There are many more troubling insanity cases -- John Hinckley, for one -- to worry about.


You're welcome darlin. I agree with your post too!

[PomMom12]

I have always partly blamed Rusty for the cause of this. He knew that Andrea was sick but allowed her to continue to have children and even moved all of them on a bus at one point. I hope that he treats his second wife and their child differently.

[twinkiesmom]

Here's a question for anyone who has "slipped" into mental depression/psychosis.

Is there a stage, at anytime, when you are lucid enough to realize that you are losing your grip on reality?

I believe there is....even if the window is so small, you know it is happening.

Andrea knew.

She did nothing.

She wanted Rusty to do "something" for her.

She knew.

She waited.

Until it was too late.

She bears the responsibility for doing nothing.

You're very wrong...She did do something...She tried to kill herself first.

You're forgetting that the right help has to come at the right time from OUTSIDE the person who's experiencing the mental break. It's not something you can save yourself from.

In my aunt's case, she drove herself over to my parent's house before the absolute break occurred. In Andrea's case, it was the suicide attempt.