"Mother" kills 2 daughters... MERGED THREADS

[JinxieJada]

Taken from Clickondetroit.com - I personally don't like the way it's worded,but then probably because I don't think that having financial issues, or working for Mickey Dee's, or being single, automatically make you a murderer, but again, that's just me...(grumpy mood this morning..sorry..http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/furious.gif) I do think this is a sad, sad situation as well as deeper than I think may totally be discovered, just from the little bit mentioned and how far this woman ended up going.

MACOMB TOWNSHIP -- Neighbors and even veteran police officers say they were stunned by a brutal double murder inside a mobile home off M-59 in Macomb Township, Local 4 reported.Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel said it was a very graphic situation, very sad and the officers were left shaken.Police said a 30-year old single mother was being questioned Sunday night after her two daughters, ages 5 and 8, were found stabbed to death inside their home.
Three of the family's dogs and even a pet mouse were also stabbed repeatedly.Police have not released a motive for the murders, but neighbors told Local 4 the woman was raising her children alone, worked at McDonalds and had financial problems.The woman, who reportedly told police "I hurt my kids," is being held in the Macomb County Jail.

[michelle]

Taken from Clickondetroit.com - I personally don't like the way it's worded,but then probably because I don't think that having financial issues, or working for Mickey Dee's, or being single, automatically make you a murderer, but again, that's just me...(grumpy mood this morning..sorry..http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/furious.gif) I do think this is a sad, sad situation as well as deeper than I think may totally be discovered, just from the little bit mentioned and how far this woman ended up going.

MACOMB TOWNSHIP -- Neighbors and even veteran police officers say they were stunned by a brutal double murder inside a mobile home off M-59 in Macomb Township, Local 4 reported.Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel said it was a very graphic situation, very sad and the officers were left shaken.Police said a 30-year old single mother was being questioned Sunday night after her two daughters, ages 5 and 8, were found stabbed to death inside their home.
Three of the family's dogs and even a pet mouse were also stabbed repeatedly.Police have not released a motive for the murders, but neighbors told Local 4 the woman was raising her children alone, worked at McDonalds and had financial problems.The woman, who reportedly told police "I hurt my kids," is being held in the Macomb County Jail.Of course those things do not make someone a murderer, but she said she hurt or kids, right? How sad......All the animals stabbed as well. Someone was full of rage, poor kids.:banghead:

[mom3dd]

Pitiful http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/michigan/chi-ap-mi-childrenslain,1,1051306.story

[GlitchWizard]

She stabbed a mouse? You'd have to have some spectacular aim for that.

[michelle]

Here is another link. http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/02/05/578923.html&cvqh=itn_kidstabbings

[teonspaleprincess]

I bet she will say she WAS going to kill herself also...wish she had succeeded, would save us the time and trouble. Poor babies.

[michelle]

I bet she will say she WAS going to kill herself also...wish she had succeeded, would save us the time and trouble. Poor babies.I agree!

[kahskye]

Here is another link. http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/02/05/578923.html&cvqh=itn_kidstabbings
Hackel said the woman apparently had no criminal record but may have had "some mental health issues."

"May have had some mental health issues?" It's bad enough she murdered her own children, but to kill the family dogs and a little mouse, that sure sounds like a mental case to me.

[michelle]

Hackel said the woman apparently had no criminal record but may have had "some mental health issues."

"May have had some mental health issues?" It's bad enough she murdered her own children, but to kill the family dogs and a little mouse, that sure sounds like a mental case to me.Yes that struck me as very odd. Of course killing your children is the worst of all! Afreaking mouse though, how did she get to it? I wonder if it was like a pet hampster or something. :confused:

[teonspaleprincess]

The article did say that it was a pet mouse.

[OneLostGrl]

I bet she will say she WAS going to kill herself also...wish she had succeeded, would save us the time and trouble. Poor babies.

Yep! I don't care HOW crazy I am- I'd kill myself if that's what it took to keep my child safe!

[michelle]

Yep! I don't care HOW crazy I am- I'd kill myself if that's what it took to keep my child safe!Me too!

[GlitchWizard]

The article did say that it was a pet mouse.
Pet mice would be hard to stab, too. She had to have held it and skewered it more than stabbed it. (I have snakes, thus handle alot of mice.) This is one that I will not shake my head and say she is faking insanity.

[JinxieJada]

This snip keeps leaping out at me - runaway thoughts..so bear with me eh?

Hackel said the sister never entered the dwelling. She told police she had visited her sister Saturday night to help her clean the house out of concern for her sister's children, the sheriff said. She reported leaving around 11 p.m.

There's been alot of hoopla around here about Child protective services "hoarding" kids for the bonuses that are supposedly doled out to the workers. Is it a possibility that this woman was getting ready to lose her kids..(this semi goes along with the she meant to kill herself to for whatever reason) If you type into google "Michigan FIA game..you'll come across some pretty interesting reading, one that would make someone freak if they had a runin with them. As stated above though, I have no clue whether this is true, I've read some articles in the local county papers that would go with the rumors as well as the typical stuff against it.

Anyways, it's just a thought, but with what was stated, and with what local talk is, just made me wonder..kwim?

[GreenEyedGirl]

Mom stabbed to death 2 daughters, police say

Suspect sat alone all night in home with bodies of girls, ages 9, 5

PUBLISHED: February 5, 2007

By Mitch Hotts
Macomb Daily Staff Writer

A Macomb Township woman is in police custody today after she was accused of the gruesome killing of her two daughters and an assortment of pets, according to the Macomb County Sheriff's Office.
Sheriff's investigators were still at the home late Sunday in the Hometown Macomb manufactured housing complex on M-59 east of Romeo Plank, where police said they recovered several large bloody knives used in the attack.


"It's an extremely horrific scene," said Macomb Sheriff Mark Hackel.

The sheriff's office plans to file homicide charges against the woman for the stabbing deaths of her two daughters, ages 5 and 9. Also killed in the attack were three dogs and a pet mouse that was housed in a cage. Police said the woman's sister called 911 about 6:30 p.m. after entering the home and discovering the suspect sitting alone amid the carnage. The Macomb County Medical Examiner's Office determined the children had been dead "for some time."

More at link: http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/020507/loc_20070205001.shtml

[philamena]

Because of the children's ages, I don't think this woman was suffering from PPD. Gosh, she killed her children and her pets.:)
Where was her husband, family, etc? Had she previously shown any signs of depression?
From the article:


A 2005 study by the Journal of American Academy for Psychiatry and the Law found a high degree of mental illness and suicidal tendencies for women accused of filicide, the term for parents who kill their children.

The majority of cases in the study were identified as psychotic altruistic, where the parents believe they were relieving the suffering of their children.

[Floh]

SHELBY TOWNSHIP, Mich. - A woman who police say was hearing voices was charged Monday with fatally stabbing her two young daughters, whose bodies were found side by side in their home.

Jennifer Kukla, 30, was arraigned on first-degree murder charges in the slayings of Alexandria, 8, and Ashley, 5. She was ordered held without bail, and she could get life in prison without parole if convicted.

Police said that Kukla acknowledged killing her daughters and that alcohol may have been a factor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_on_re_us/children_slain;_ylt=AqtCprg50UFo5egJx5CXWg5vzwcF;_ ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-

Wouldn't it be something if a parent who murders children committed suicide first?

[cathieq]

I don't know why I even read news like this...It makes me wonder what in the .... is the matter with this world. Of course I wonder that everyday when I face the kids who didn't die but survived...Any chance at a normal life is gone...I don't care if the parents were sick or sane...You maim anything helpless you have done irreparable harm. Punishment should be swift and just - and complete.

So why do I read these things? So when a child looks at me in anger, with hatred for the world...only then can I understand.

[Socks]

This isn't a case where mental illness applies. This is straight up evil.

[s_finch]

She stabbed a mouse? You'd have to have some spectacular aim for that.
How anything in this sad saga could make me laugh, I have no idea,,,,but Glitchwizard has done it!!

Back to the story, I don't know where mental illness ends and evil begins, or vice versa but I often wonder about it when I'm reading on here. And that brings me to another question, WHY do I read these things?????? Something about Abnormal/Forensic Psychology fascinates me; the fact that our few pounds of grey matter can be twisted toward violence by genetics, or damaged through physical, emotional, psychology insult, or altered by chemicals and that those factors lead to such brutal actions as this mother took. It's like a huge puzzle and I guess therein is the attraction for me. That and the fact that I hope one day I'll learn of some info that will aid in solving the case of Dail Dinwiddie.

[JinxieJada]

I keep thinking it's ANOTHER story where this has happened =(

[southcitymom]

This isn't a case where mental illness applies. This is straight up evil.She was hearing voices. Most professionals consider that a sign of mental illness and I would say that many cases I read where parents randomly kill their children have this hearing voices component.

Seems to me this is clearly mental illness.

[southcitymom]

Wouldn't it be something if a parent who murders children committed suicide first?
For reasons unknown to me, the voices never seem to suggest THAT, do they?!

[JinxieJada]

I've lost both of my parents to suicide, and we all thought why didn't he (my dad) take out the SOB that caused my mom to do it? But..what I was told by several therapists is that it's a one track thing...

Where I'm going with this, is..

Is it possible for someone to "break" and with full intention of killing themselves after whatever horrific thing they did, and yet not have the "energy" for lack of a better word?

I know after a horrible crying spell or something similiar the only thing I want to do is sleep/vegetate etc...So if one is that caught up in the moment and is raging is it possible that she just couldn't go any further?

I'm not trying to excuse, justify etc what this woman has done, simply trying to figure out the hows and the why's.

[GlitchWizard]

Jinxie- You hit the nail on the head. I know a guy who strangled a 5 year old girl (years ago) but stopped in the middle of it. He was going to kill her so he'd have the guts to kill himself. He stopped, made sure she was going to be (relatively) okay and her mother would find her - then split and didn't kill himself. He was put in a facility for many years afterwards before he went to trail for another crime and the girl (then a teenager) flipped him off.

He said he was secretly happy that she had the gumption to flip him off because he knew that meant she had dealt with the emotions and could face him like that.

Anyway - it does take incredible energy to harm someone else that you care about, and then you are too drained to kill yourself. While this is how it can work, I still don't get WHY it's that way. It seems intuitive that if you killed someone you loved, that you'd be even more distraught and want to end your own life. I guess it's not, but it seems like it should be.

[Jeana (DP)]

I've lost both of my parents to suicide, and we all thought why didn't he (my dad) take out the SOB that caused my mom to do it? But..what I was told by several therapists is that it's a one track thing...

Where I'm going with this, is..

Is it possible for someone to "break" and with full intention of killing themselves after whatever horrific thing they did, and yet not have the "energy" for lack of a better word?

I know after a horrible crying spell or something similiar the only thing I want to do is sleep/vegetate etc...So if one is that caught up in the moment and is raging is it possible that she just couldn't go any further?

I'm not trying to excuse, justify etc what this woman has done, simply trying to figure out the hows and the why's.


I'm sorry about your parents Jada. I'm no expert, but we've heard of other cases where the perp "claimed" that they had intended suicide but couldn't carry it out, but I have my doubts. I think that most of them are cowards and while they could hurt children they didn't have the balls to hurt themselves. Names that come to mind are Darlie Routier and Susan Smith, but there are others.

[s_finch]

She was hearing voices. Most professionals consider that a sign of mental illness and I would say that many cases I read where parents randomly kills their children have this hearing voices component.

Seems to me this is clearly mental illness.
She clearly could have been delusional, but then again the "I was hearing voices" defense works so well, why not use it? A guy close to here stabbed his dad and step-mom to death (they fought back, really a gory scene) and his defense was literally "the devil and I made a bargain and he promised I wouldn't get caught if I committed these acts"---the perp said the devil literally sat in his room and discussed this with him before he committed the murders. Now I personally do believe satan exists and works his evil, but whether that was the case in this situation or whether the perp was using it as a defense I dont' know, but I do know he's on death row here, no possibility of parole. IOW, the defense strategy didn't work for him.

[GlitchWizard]

Has anyone ever heard of voices in your head telling you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or is it always something awful?

[JinxieJada]

I couldn't figure out how to quote (brain freeze lol) but someone had mentioned about the person who stabbed his parents and stated the devil and he made a bargain. This is another one that seems to be used ALL the time. I belong to a literacy for prisoners program and one of the participants was talking to me about why he was in there etc. And stated he too made a "pact with the devil" Stated he had it all, the women, the lifestyle, money etc. He met a woman who was very involved with religion and he "found god". He stated when he started "walking the right way" is when everything came crashing down on him. To this day he still believes if he wouldn't have found religion he would be living the high life.

Is he mentally ill? Not according to the dr's, nor according to himself. He just believes that he made a bad choice. In his defense (for lack of a better word) His crimes were not the violent terrible sort against women, children etc. (White collar stuff)

Are these people sure that the "voices" they are hearing isn't their conscious asking "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING?"

On another note...Here is an update about what community members (and i"m sure from elsewhere too) have put together so far for the family.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/10953197/detail.html
Macomb Township, Mich. -- Donations are pouring into a memorial fund for two young girls found stabbed to death.Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel said clergy members, funeral homes, flower shops and the public have stepped forward to help. A local bank set up the memorial fund. Roughly $5,000 has been collected so far.

Jennifer Kukla faces two counts of first-degree murder in the slayings of her daughters.

Police discovered the bodies Sunday inside their Macomb Township mobile home.Funeral services are set for Saturday morning in Shelby Township.



Does anyone know if she will be allowed to attend the funeral?

Here is the little bit of booking info Macomb County Jail has put up about her.

http://www.vinelink.com/offender/detail.jsp?siteID=23005&offenderSID=30718469

[southcitymom]

She clearly could have been delusional, but then again the "I was hearing voices" defense works so well, why not use it? A guy close to here stabbed his dad and step-mom to death (they fought back, really a gory scene) and his defense was literally "the devil and I made a bargain and he promised I wouldn't get caught if I committed these acts"---the perp said the devil literally sat in his room and discussed this with him before he committed the murders. Now I personally do believe satan exists and works his evil, but whether that was the case in this situation or whether the perp was using it as a defense I dont' know, but I do know he's on death row here, no possibility of parole. IOW, the defense strategy didn't work for him.
I hear you. But as a general rule, I think time and psychiatrists can usually tell if a person is truly delusional and not just faking it. Not always, of course, but most of the time.

Just to clarify my position, I do believe some parents kill their children and there is NOT a mental illness issue. However, in this case - there may very well be.

[csds703]

Has anyone ever heard of voices in your head telling you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or is it always something awful?
This cracked me up!

[Dalilah]

My daughter's mental illness can cause her to be delusional and hear voices when under stress. She has stated that they never tell her anything "good" or "positive" but the voices do attempt to convince her to hurt herself or others. It is scary. It is terrifying to see my dear child in this delusional state as she doesn't even look much like my daughter. I don't believe in a devil or anything like that, but I suppose those who do might say she looks possessed.

Wouldn't it be great if the voices told her to study hard, do the dishes and give mummy hugs and kisses?

[Jeana (DP)]

My daughter's mental illness can cause her to be delusional and hear voices when under stress. She has stated that they never tell her anything "good" or "positive" but the voices do attempt to convince her to hurt herself or others. It is scary. It is terrifying to see my dear child in this delusional state as she doesn't even look much like my daughter. I don't believe in a devil or anything like that, but I suppose those who do might say she looks possessed.

Wouldn't it be great if the voices told her to study hard, do the dishes and give mummy hugs and kisses?


I'm sorry that your family is going through that situation. It must be terrifying for her. Can you say how old she is?

[Dalilah]

I'm sorry that your family is going through that situation. It must be terrifying for her. Can you say how old she is?
Thanks Jeana. She is 14 years old...she'll be 15 in May. On Monday, we moved her to her new treatment center in Richmond. It is a step up from the last one and a half hour closer to home than the last one. Her new psychiatrist is well-published and very knowledgeable of the treatment(s) for her illness and disorders, so we're feeling a bit more hopeful.

[southcitymom]

Thanks Jeana. She is 14 years old...she'll be 15 in May. On Monday, we moved her to her new treatment center in Richmond. It is a step up from the last one and a half hour closer to home than the last one. Her new psychiatrist is well-published and very knowledgeable of the treatment(s) for her illness and disorders, so we're feeling a bit more hopeful.
Bless you heart, Dalilah. That must be tough. I am so glad she is in good psychiatric hands.

[Dalilah]

Bless you heart, Dalilah. That must be tough. I am so glad she is in good psychiatric hands.
Thank you.

[s_finch]

I hear you. But as a general rule, I think time and psychiatrists can usually tell if a person is truly delusional and not just faking it. Not always, of course, but most of the time.

Just to clarify my position, I do believe some parents kill their children and there is NOT a mental illness issue. However, in this case - there may very well be.
I completely agree with you, SCMom!

[s_finch]

Jada, I'm sorry you had to endure that with both your parents, how sad for you.

And Dalilah, I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's problems. I do pray she will get better.

[Jeana (DP)]

Thanks Jeana. She is 14 years old...she'll be 15 in May. On Monday, we moved her to her new treatment center in Richmond. It is a step up from the last one and a half hour closer to home than the last one. Her new psychiatrist is well-published and very knowledgeable of the treatment(s) for her illness and disorders, so we're feeling a bit more hopeful.


Thanks for the info. Ya'll will be in my thoughts. I pray that treatment helps.

[JinxieJada]

Jada, I'm sorry you had to endure that with both your parents, how sad for you.
Thanks..long story..my dad's is clear cut (he lasted a little over a year after my mom passed)..but my mom's is still an open investigation, I've gotten the reports as well as the crime scene photos and noone thinks it was a suicide. Messes with my head at times, but she was an 42 years old and made her own decisions regardless of what happened that day.

[kcksum]

Has anyone ever heard of voices in your head telling you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or is it always something awful?
Oh My GOD that made me laugh do freaking hard I almost threw up my dinner......you rock glitchwizard!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D :D

[GlitchWizard]

My daughter's mental illness can cause her to be delusional and hear voices when under stress. She has stated that they never tell her anything "good" or "positive" but the voices do attempt to convince her to hurt herself or others. It is scary. It is terrifying to see my dear child in this delusional state as she doesn't even look much like my daughter. I don't believe in a devil or anything like that, but I suppose those who do might say she looks possessed.

Wouldn't it be great if the voices told her to study hard, do the dishes and give mummy hugs and kisses?
I wonder about something - about changing what the voices say into positive things like study hard and do dishes. What I mean is, I used to have recurring nightmares and no one listened to me about them. I started laying in bed trying to reprogram my thoughts as I fell asleep and eventually I was able to control a nightmare in the middle of it - to change the dream events my way. I have been able to manipulate my dreams ever since and never had another nightmare. The brain is amazing. There has to be a way she can take those voices that say for her to hurt herself and change them (since they come from her own brain, in another section) into something that she'd rather them say. It wasn't easy for me, but I was a young child - with the help of a therapist maybe she can reprogram herself more easily.

I don't know if it is possible, but seems like it could be - would make sense... especially since she is awake when she hears the voices.