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Dr. Doogie
04-13-2007, 05:45 PM
Here is a part 2 thread for Theory #2: Family Abduction by George Waters with George Brody and/or Associates .

The other thread had gotten too long.

Dr. Doogie
04-13-2007, 06:29 PM
Bump to get this above the old Part 1 thread.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-16-2007, 11:01 AM
Just wondering if Sherlock contacted Madyln yet?

Dr. Doogie
04-16-2007, 11:03 AM
Just wondering if Sherlock contacted Madyln yet?

Madlyn is currently in a nursing home. We may have mssed our window of opportunity for getting any information from her. SherlockJr is exploring other family members for possible information.

Annasunc
04-16-2007, 05:44 PM
According to death records for Margaret, she was born in NJ. However the town in PA where she lived before moving to CA was Doylestown in Bucks County.

Just to put things in geographic perspective, we live in New Jersey (Mercer County, bordering the Delaware River) and my wife had a doctor's appointment today in Doylestown, less than an hour away (Bucks County borders the other side of the river). Please let us know if there's any research we can do for you here; my wife and I are both reporters and are near Trenton, where a lot of state records are kept. Where was Margaret born?

Originally mistakenly posted on closed thread (Abduction by George Waters with George Brody, Part 1)

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-19-2007, 06:22 PM
Any word on Madlyn's relatives? Anyone know anything yet? I have a really good angle I'd like to explore but it would be a waist of time if Madlyn is truly Brody's MK's sister.

Dr. Doogie
04-19-2007, 06:46 PM
Any word on Madlyn's relatives? Anyone know anything yet? I have a really good angle I'd like to explore but it would be a waist of time if Madlyn is truly Brody's MK's sister.

Actually, if Madlyn is our Margret's sister, then that may be an opportunity to gain information about Brody (which would be our main goal with this tact). I believe that MK and GB knew each other in PA and came to CA together. This means that MK's family may know GB's real name and history. (Is that enough initials to confuse everybody? OK!)

Cubby
04-20-2007, 11:53 AM
I'm not sure if this has been asked, but came to mind last night before I fell asleep.

Was Anna aware of who GW was? I remember reading he was not involved in her life after her parents split. Did she have pictures or was shown pictures of him, and would she have recognized him from pictures possibly willingly going off with him?

Annasmom
04-20-2007, 08:22 PM
I'm not sure if this has been asked, but came to mind last night before I fell asleep.

Was Anna aware of who GW was? I remember reading he was not involved in her life after her parents split. Did she have pictures or was shown pictures of him, and would she have recognized him from pictures possibly willingly going off with him?
I don't believe she would have known who he was. There were pictures of him in albums somewhere about, but whether we ever discussed him in Anna's hearing I can't remember. She was a friendly little girl and had not been warned not to speak to strangers. Just this morning I drove out to Purisima canyon with two of my grandchildren who had not seen it, and they marveled at how far off the beaten track it seemed to them (city kids). They also loved coming back to town by the roller-coaster Higgins Canyon route their father and Anna took to and from school every day.

JDB
04-20-2007, 08:26 PM
Annasmom: I came up dry for getting Pics of the Harbor back in 1972.I was told the the Harbormaster at Pillar point has some pics. But they have not responded to my e-mails. Sorry I tried.

Annasmom
04-20-2007, 10:35 PM
Annasmom: I came up dry for getting Pics of the Harbor back in 1972.I was told the the Harbormaster at Pillar point has some pics. But they have not responded to my e-mails. Sorry I tried. Thanks, JDB; it was a good thought and we may yet look into this.

GraceBlue
04-21-2007, 11:17 AM
I don't believe she would have known who he was. There were pictures of him in albums somewhere about, but whether we ever discussed him in Anna's hearing I can't remember. She was a friendly little girl and had not been warned not to speak to strangers. Just this morning I drove out to Purisima canyon with two of my grandchildren who had not seen it, and they marveled at how far off the beaten track it seemed to them (city kids). They also loved coming back to town by the roller-coaster Higgins Canyon route their father and Anna took to and from school every day.

Sort of off the subject (as we wait for the DNA results)Whether or not a child is warned not to speak to strangers, they probably would anyway.
This is an example of what happened 2 weeks ago when my mom, my daughter, and I went to the mall to see the Easter bunny:
We were in the children's play area at the mall so my daughter could run around. This little girl, who was about 5-6, joined in to play with my daughter...

Little girl: My name is J_______
My mom: Oh, thats my last name! I am Nancy and this is my granddaughter, Parker.
Little girl: Oh really? I can write down my phone number for you!
My mom: :eek: "Well you know thats probably not a good idea because you dont know me"

Fortunately, my mom is an elementary school teacher. She went up to the little girl's father and told him what had happened. He was shocked and said he had told her repeatedly not to talk to strangers and thanked my mom. When we were leaving, I looked over and saw her father giving her the 'talk' and she clearly felt so bad, she was crying and had her head buried in her father's arms. I felt bad but it needed to be done.

I've seen shows on tv where they would have an hidden camera and put a stranger (actor) near children and have them ask for help. Sadly a lot of those children went up to the stranger to help them regardless of whether they knew not to talk to strangers. Scary!

natasha-cupcake
04-21-2007, 11:54 AM
Sadly, Grace, that is true. I've always maintained that no child is any match for an adult bent on harming him or her, no matter how well prepared or how well educated the child is regarding "stranger-danger". I, too, saw that news segment where actors played child abductors and were able to entice an alarmingly high number of children to go with them, despite the fact that the kids had been taught not to speak to strangers. The parents were devastated as they sat nearby watching the experiment. I wasn't surprised at the results at all.

Regardless of how much we'd like to think that we can prevent our children from being abducted, there is no 100% guarantee that we can do so. Just look at poor Anna, who was abducted from her own back yard, out in the middle of nowhere. Not to mention poor Polly Klass, Elizabeth Smart or Jessica Lunsford. It's a really sad fact of life, unfortunately.

Prayers to all the child victims and their families.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-21-2007, 01:55 PM
12-2-05 by Annamom (cut and paste from original Anna Christian Waters thread. Post #140)
Originally Posted by laini
Does anyone know how and/or where George and Brody first met?laini
Annasmom reply:
Waters treated Brody's girl friend, who had an incurable tumor and subsequently died. Brody was in all probability living off this woman, who had a number of small businesses under (no surprise) several different names.


I've been searching past threads and came upon this information. Was this speculation by Annasmom, or is there indeed proof of aliases and businesses that Margaret Kukoda ran? Besides her possible Mary K business, what other names did she use and what business did she have?

Also, I was under the impression that George Waters never had a private practice and was mainly a Emergency room/clinic doctor. Why would he be treating a Cancer/tumor patient?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-21-2007, 02:12 PM
Actually, if Madlyn is our Margret's sister, then that may be an opportunity to gain information about Brody (which would be our main goal with this tact). I believe that MK and GB knew each other in PA and came to CA together. This means that MK's family may know GB's real name and history. (Is that enough initials to confuse everybody? OK!)

Right...I got ya there. :D What I was trying to say is, has any of these relatives of Madyln's been contacted yet? I have a few areas to explore in the event that Margaret Kukoda (child of Anthony and Esther and sister of Madlyn) is NOT Brodys MK. There is a great possibility she is, but a few things just arent right. Specifically her birth date. You would think being retired Navy, Registered Nurse, and Convict, with a valid Social Security Number that her birth date would have been correct on her death certificate, but it's not. If they are the same people the birth month should be March 1917(or maybe April) but the death cert says August 1917. Born & died on the exact same day 50 years later.

mysteriew
04-21-2007, 05:59 PM
Right...I got ya there. :D What I was trying to say is, has any of these relatives of Madyln's been contacted yet? I have a few areas to explore in the event that Margaret Kukoda (child of Anthony and Esther and sister of Madlyn) is NOT Brodys MK. There is a great possibility she is, but a few things just arent right. Specifically her birth date. You would think being retired Navy, Registered Nurse, and Convict, with a valid Social Security Number that her birth date would have been correct on her death certificate, but it's not. If they are the same people the birth month should be March 1917(or maybe April) but the death cert says August 1917. Born & died on the exact same day 50 years later.

As far as the birthdate on the death certificate, you have to remember- GW most likely signed that certificate. It was probably completed in collaboration with GB. So an incorrect birth date on the death certificate could have been on purpose, inadvertent (maybe a date associated with one of the aliases), or simply a typo (that happens more than you would think.)

Annasmom
04-21-2007, 09:25 PM
As far as the birthdate on the death certificate, you have to remember- GW most likely signed that certificate. It was probably completed in collaboration with GB. So an incorrect birth date on the death certificate could have been on purpose, inadvertent (maybe a date associated with one of the aliases), or simply a typo (that happens more than you would think.)
No, he would not have signed the death certificate, since she died at a public institution, Laguna Honda Hospital, where he was not her doctor.

Annasmom
04-21-2007, 09:28 PM
12-2-05 by Annamom (cut and past from original Anna Christian Waters thread. Post #140
Originally Posted by laini
Does anyone know how and/or where George and Brody first met?laini
Annasmom reply:
Waters treated Brody's girl friend, who had an incurable tumor and subsequently died. Brody was in all probability living off this woman, who had a number of small businesses under (no surprise) several different names.


I've been searching past threads and came upon this information. Was this speculation by Annasmom, or is there indeed proof of aliases and businesses that Margaret Kukoda ran? Besides her possible Mary K business, what other names did she use and what business did she have?

Also, I was under the impression that George Waters never had a private practice and was mainly a Emergency room/clinic doctor. Why would he be treating a Cancer/tumor patient?

There was some research on Margaret's businesses and phone listings in the Box which LE now has, so I can't give you specifics. The only name I remember her using was Mary Kay. Doogie may remember more. GW had no business treating a cancer patient, but he was doing it privately, probably under instruction from Brody himself, and using (from what I recall) some quite unconventional therapies. Again, Doogie may remember more.

Annasmom
04-21-2007, 09:30 PM
I was on Fisherman's Wharf today with my son and grandson, waiting on the sidewalk, when I did a double-take at a hawker who resembled George Brody. As I waited there, I was struck by how much this man's "act" and come-on resembled the ramblings of GB. I began to wonder if GB had come through some carnival circuit or something. Didn't they used to have boxers? And certainly they had con men. Any ideas?

Annasunc
04-22-2007, 09:21 AM
Right...I got ya there. :D What I was trying to say is, has any of these relatives of Madyln's been contacted yet? I have a few areas to explore in the event that Margaret Kukoda (child of Anthony and Esther and sister of Madlyn) is NOT Brodys MK. There is a great possibility she is, but a few things just arent right. Specifically her birth date. You would think being retired Navy, Registered Nurse, and Convict, with a valid Social Security Number that her birth date would have been correct on her death certificate, but it's not. If they are the same people the birth month should be March 1917(or maybe April) but the death cert says August 1917. Born & died on the exact same day 50 years later.

I hate to say it, but maybe the person who filled out the death certificate started writing the death date in the birth state slot and was too lazy to change it when realizing the error. It wouldn't surprise me.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
04-22-2007, 12:03 PM
I hate to say it, but maybe the person who filled out the death certificate started writing the death date in the birth state slot and was too lazy to change it when realizing the error. It wouldn't surprise me.

That thought did cross my mind! ugh! :confused:

Annasunc
04-23-2007, 11:29 AM
I was on Fisherman's Wharf today with my son and grandson, waiting on the sidewalk, when I did a double-take at a hawker who resembled George Brody. As I waited there, I was struck by how much this man's "act" and come-on resembled the ramblings of GB. I began to wonder if GB had come through some carnival circuit or something. Didn't they used to have boxers? And certainly they had con men. Any ideas?

Hmmm. That could explain a lot -- his untraceability and use of alias(es), his exposure and subsequent appropriation of bits and pieces of various philosophies to fit his purpose (as fictional gambler Brett Maverick said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, and those are pretty good odds") and notable occasional successes with this tactic.

Not to get too far off target, but this is the route Col. Tom Parker (a contemporary of Brody's) went before becoming Elvis's manager (one of his specialties was "dancing chickens," with the poor birds standing, then hopping, on a hidden hot plate as the temperature was surreptitiously turned up). In "The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story Of Colonel Tom Parker And Elvis Presley" author Alanna Nash speculates that the Colonel, known as Andreas Cornelis van Kujik at the time, had to flee the Netherlands after the bludgeoning death of a grocer's wife with a crowbar, and Parker's fear of discovery about his past was why Elvis never toured outside the US. Parker was born near the turn of the century, but little is known for sure about his life before the 1940s, and he was in the public spotlight for decades. The truth about Parker's early years was revealed only when his family in the Netherlands recognized him in photographs with Elvis, and confirmed in 1982 when Parker tried to avert a lawsuit by asserting he was a Dutch citizen.

Dr. Doogie
04-23-2007, 12:04 PM
I recall that Col. Parker used to purposely overpay his income taxes in an effort to avoid being audited, since an audit may have uncovered his status as an illegal immigrant to the U.S.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 03:20 PM
I was looking at some old missing cases on the Charlie Project and came across this one. My first glance at the pics I could have swore it was good ol GB. What do you all think?

Glen Hyde: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hyde_glen.html

Compare to http://new.photos.yahoo.com/drdoogief/album/576460762319040758/photo/294928803184156275/14

and

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/drdoogief/album/576460762319040758/photo/294928803184156362/15

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 03:43 PM
LOL, I just PM'd that one to Dr. Doogie a couple days ago, I did a face over, on many pics, and have some sites listed with photos, cause I thought the same thing!!! Good Work!!!!

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 03:48 PM
Here are some more sites about Hyde

www.unsolvedhistories.com/hyde.htm (http://www.unsolvedhistories.com/hyde.htm)

www.fretwater.com/hydes.html (http://www.fretwater.com/hydes.html)

http://ns.headroyce.org/~afarnham/LitWest/ambitionphotos.html

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 03:53 PM
LOL, I just PM'd that one to Dr. Doogie a couple days ago, I did a face over, on many pics, and have some sites listed with photos, cause I thought the same thing!!! Good Work!!!!
:rolleyes: Great minds think alike!! LOL So did the good Doctor see a resemlence? The part about meeting his wife on a passenger ship from San Francisco to LA was kind of eerie too.

(and his wife kind of resembles MK too!)

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 03:57 PM
I thought all the same things you do! hehehehe...In one of the sites they talk about how domineering and controlling he was...hmmm, sounds familiar. Him being an adventurer doesn't, but anyone in their youth can be different than when they are older. She did look like MK, and I thought that his wife could have died accidentally, (or maybe on purpose) and he walked out of there, and became a new man in a town he was familiar with. The pics of his father, look uncannily like GB when he is older!

Dr. Doogie
05-03-2007, 04:00 PM
...So did the good Doctor see a resemlence?..

Right now, my time has been spent preparing for the DNA results, so I have not had much time for examining this possibility. At first glance, the resemblance is somewhat close, but not an "A-Ha!" type resemblance. I will look at this much closer as time permits. It is promising that two researchers came to the same information independently! Good job, you guys!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 04:03 PM
.... The pics of his father, look uncannily like GB when he is older!


THanks for the links, I just looked at the last one and you are right!!! His father looks more like Brody than Glen does...LOL

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 04:41 PM
I had to step out for a bit, back now...

I have done many hours of researching Brody, compiling info but never anything concrete. Some time ago, I mentioned lightly about how there are old missing persons cases, where someone from a family may be looking for someone that looks like Brody but not named as such. I have spent alot of hours in this arena, looking for him under other names. Honestly, when the pictures are blown up and places side by side or over each other, they are very close.
WOuldn't it be amazing if Anna was found, and Brody's identity uncovered, and the Glen and Bessie mystery solved? LOL that would be incredible. But there is still a long way to go to determining it.
BTW, did you notice the 'fedora' Glen and his father both seem so fond of wearing? Interesting, huh?
Thanks for verifying all the work I did on this by finding it too, it seems more credible to me now. Lets figure this one out!
Smiles

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 05:09 PM
I had to step out for a bit, back now...

I have done many hours of researching Brody, compiling info but never anything concrete. Some time ago, I mentioned lightly about how there are old missing persons cases, where someone from a family may be looking for someone that looks like Brody but not named as such. I have spent alot of hours in this arena, looking for him under other names. Honestly, when the pictures are blown up and places side by side or over each other, they are very close.
WOuldn't it be amazing if Anna was found, and Brody's identity uncovered, and the Glen and Bessie mystery solved? LOL that would be incredible. But there is still a long way to go to determining it.
BTW, did you notice the 'fedora' Glen and his father both seem so fond of wearing? Interesting, huh?
Thanks for verifying all the work I did on this by finding it too, it seems more credible to me now. Lets figure this one out!
Smiles


This is just so weird! Look at the top pic on this page you posted:
http://ns.headroyce.org/~afarnham/LitWest/ambitionphotos.html
(side view) and this one of Brody: (Also side view)
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/drdoogief/album/576460762319040758/photo/294928803184155399/4
When you look at these 2 side by side, The ears, the nose, (even the flair of the nostril) and the chin all look so similar. And oh yes the famous fedora too. (Most farmers in those times wore straw hats, or cowboy hats...not felt fedoras.)

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 05:16 PM
LOL, I have pics downloaded and side by side blow ups all over my computer, because the shapes of ears, eyes jaw everything is similar! that is so funny, I really know what you mean, I have been sitting on this all week after I sent it to Dr Doogie, because I knew he would be busy with the DNA, and I didn't want to start another riot! LOL, but I am stunned at the similarities. The father has an amazing resemblance just in his stance and they way he holds his arms to what Brody did!
I didn't want to tell the guy that wrote the book just yet, I think this has become our mystery to solve, LOL!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 05:39 PM
The story behind the Hydes is quite fascinating. Some reports say she was pregnant. Maybe a Scott & Laci situation?? Maybe he did accidentally on purpose kill her since he requested no life preservers. Eventually he found his way out of the canyon, and moved to SF where he found someone else to support him. With a little imagination the pieces fit together so well.

He must have been a smooth talker to make a young married woman go to such lengths to divorce her husband and move to Idaho to help him farm.

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 05:55 PM
You are thinkin! What I am thinkin! LOL...my father has a saying "Dumb, like a fox"...he may be acting simply and thinking overtime! He was a control freak, according to his own family, no surprise that he convinced her to do all that for him....seems he was able to convince MK to be the 'woman he wanted her to be" otherwise, she wouldn't have been with him. The San Francisco connection is interesting because there are not alot of details as to the timeline of him going there, to meet her...he just 'went to SF', what the heck did that mean? Seems alot of similarities, and at first the smaller pics of him didn't impress me, bit when I blew them up next to Brody, I was actually extremely surprised by it.

What is striking me as so funny, is that the very first case I ever worked on, many years ago, also involved a man by the name of Hyde....LOL, those 'Jeckyl and Hyde' types are something else!

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 06:23 PM
Glen was raised in Washington, California, Canada, and Idaho and attended college in Oregon and Idaho.

I wonder where in California he was raised?

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 06:29 PM
contact info for the publisher of the book about the Hydes
http://www.fretwater.com/contact.html

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 06:39 PM
wikopedia article on the Hydes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_and_Bessie_Hyde

additional info
http://www.azpaths.com/features/articles/show-article.php?ArticleID=18

If you have a question or comment regarding the Arizona Paths website, please fill out the following form.

http://www.azpaths.com/contact/

More info from the author Brad Dimock
http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-1/pop.html
It looks like Glenn Hyde spent some time in San Diego as a child.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 06:47 PM
Glen was raised in Washington, California, Canada, and Idaho and attended college in Oregon and Idaho.

I wonder where in California he was raised?

The college part struck me, How many men in the 20's went to college and then went home to become a potato farmer??? Maybe not the life he wanted, that's why he cut himself off from his own family.

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 06:57 PM
The writer has a page on his site, to get folks to post their own theories, I believe possibly, because he may plan to write another book..I will get a copy but don't necessarily want to contact him just yet, we have some more homework to do, I have worked a long time on this, and I want to finish my work on it, before this THEORY is discussed as a real possiblity with the author. He is a man that was a river guide and made the same boat they sailed in, and his theory is that since it was so hard to control, they drowned swiftly and suddenly.
Please note, on past Wikipedia posts, anyone that submits info that is not disputed was posted. It is not always accurate, just the best available info deemed relevant. College records are easily check from that time period.
He seemed to be on an adventure or some particular reason, hopefully not just to get rid of Bessie.

Well folks, jump on the bandwagon, all help is more than welcome! Thanks Mysteriew! I do have one major doubt here, so look closely...My Hyde's ears appear to be higher than the midline of the eye...Brody's do not so much....this is a defining line that we use in medicine. what do you think?

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 06:58 PM
More from Brad Dimock. You have to read this.
http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-4/glen.html

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:03 PM
Interesting story, I wonder where those picture she gave him are? None are posted by him as far as I can see...he only shows the Glen we are looking at...any theories why that is?

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 07:07 PM
That is probably the tease for the book.....is it or is it not the same person?

Another book on the Hydes

http://www.onebookaz.org/2005/book.htm

Dimock is also mentioned and there is a link to an NPR interview of him.

More about the Dimock book, but also contains some info about the Hydes.
http://www.mtexpress.com/2001/01-06-06/01-06-06sunk.htm

Hyde family photos and photos of the trip
http://www6.nau.edu/library/scadb/peoplereferal.cfm?people_note=Hyde%2C%20Glen

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:11 PM
There is a woman that also wrote a book about them, but it was mostly about herself and her similar adventures, so they are mixed together, with no real answers...I will see if I can find her site still.

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:14 PM
Lisa Michaels is the author

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 07:23 PM
The writer has a page on his site, to get folks to post their own theories, I believe possibly, because he may plan to write another book..I will get a copy but don't necessarily want to contact him just yet, we have some more homework to do, I have worked a long time on this, and I want to finish my work on it, before this THEORY is discussed as a real possiblity with the author. He is a man that was a river guide and made the same boat they sailed in, and his theory is that since it was so hard to control, they drowned swiftly and suddenly.
Please note, on past Wikipedia posts, anyone that submits info that is not disputed was posted. It is not always accurate, just the best available info deemed relevant. College records are easily check from that time period.
He seemed to be on an adventure or some particular reason, hopefully not just to get rid of Bessie.

Well folks, jump on the bandwagon, all help is more than welcome! Thanks Mysteriew! I do have one major doubt here, so look closely...My Hyde's ears appear to be higher than the midline of the eye...Brody's do not so much....this is a defining line that we use in medicine. what do you think?


I have always heard that ears never stop growing...LOL I have pictures of my Dad from infant to death, and I've been studying them. His ears are definitely placed differently (lobe lower) from his teens to his golden years.

Also, I won't step on your toes and write the Author. I seriously didn't know you where already working on this angle. I just saw a resemblance and posted it for all to see. :blowkiss:

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 07:23 PM
Looky what I found
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35012

A lot of detail here
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hyde_bessie.html

Pencil sketch of Hyde and it gives some related sources.
http://www6.nau.edu/library/scadb/recdisplay.cfm?control_num=11585

LisainWV
05-03-2007, 07:27 PM
I have the Dimock book if anyone needs me to look something up. Interesting theories and Glen and Bessie are a great mystery.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-03-2007, 07:28 PM
Looky what I found
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35012

I saw that...I did a thread search before I ever posted the info just in case if was ever discussed here and dismissed. Seems they think it was a simple drowning...case closed. BUT...

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:29 PM
Oh please do what you might feel is right, I am not ever going to hinder someone from a quest when they might feel they have something to offer! I just have been viewing the angle for a couple months now, and was not sure the validity of this author, since IN MY OPINION only, he seems to be 'fishing' for answers to further him. Just my opinion though, and I have put in alot of research, but if you EVER find anything or want to contact him right away for any reason, please, my toes are fine! I am a facts based researcher, study study study...only because I tend to put my mouth before my facts and I have learned the hard way too many times! LOL

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:32 PM
Yah! LISA! Tell us please, did he post the pics in his book, that are listed from mysteriew post about Glen Glenn and GLenda? Is there a comparison at all?

LisainWV
05-03-2007, 07:43 PM
I don't think those photos are in the book...I'll double check.

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:45 PM
I have a REALLY difficult time believing that 2 people could fall off the boat, however rough the water, and yet things like a poetry book, a camera and ALL of their supplies remained in tact on the boat? I don't believe that, my theory is that they were off of the boat, THEN something happened...who knows what....ANy thoughts?

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:47 PM
Thanks so very much Lisa, I wondered all along why he would sound like he was soooo shocked when he saw the pics and then never publish them...if he thought they would add credibility to his story he certainly would have published them...I wonder where those pictures are? Even so, the original pics of the REAL Glen is who I am most interested in, he is a Brody theory for me for sure.

LisainWV
05-03-2007, 07:52 PM
There are some really good photos of him in the book.

Away from my scanner at the moment, but I'll try to scan a couple of the better ones this weekend.

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 07:54 PM
Thanks so very much Lisa, I wondered all along why he would sound like he was soooo shocked when he saw the pics and then never publish them...if he thought they would add credibility to his story he certainly would have published them...I wonder where those pictures are? Even so, the original pics of the REAL Glen is who I am most interested in, he is a Brody theory for me for sure.

The pictures I posted seem to have some of the trip pictures as well as some family pictures in them.

Interesting theories that have come up about the disappearance of the Hyde's:
One theory was that they wanted to start a new life and staged the disappearance.
A second was that some woman died and it it turned out that her name was not what everyone thought- her real name was supposed to be Bessie (no last name given) some items were found in her home that were thought to connect her to Bessie Hyde. But very few details are given about that.

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 07:57 PM
Thanks Lisa, you have been extremely helpful. I know he had the photos of Glen, but I was wondering if he had the ones listed at this site, as he ends his story abruptly, as if he found something. I wanted to see what supposed similarities are seen. THis site appears to be something he posted but never followed up on maybe...very curious, but the more pics the better, so thank you...I don't know the rules for copyright infringement on photos exactly, I know its a few years, so check it out first.

www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-4/glen.html (http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-4/glen.html)

InterestedNHelping
05-03-2007, 08:05 PM
iNTERESTEDWOMAN, I knew we would cross paths eventually, with these screen names, lol...any thoughts on the above theories?
Good to finally be so INTERESTED, with someone else, LOL

mysteriew
05-03-2007, 08:09 PM
Oh please do what you might feel is right, I am not ever going to hinder someone from a quest when they might feel they have something to offer! I just have been viewing the angle for a couple months now, and was not sure the validity of this author, since IN MY OPINION only, he seems to be 'fishing' for answers to further him. Just my opinion though, and I have put in alot of research, but if you EVER find anything or want to contact him right away for any reason, please, my toes are fine! I am a facts based researcher, study study study...only because I tend to put my mouth before my facts and I have learned the hard way too many times! LOL

You may be right about Dimock, but from what I am seeing, he is a boater who got caught up in the mystery. He seems to have continued investigating even after the book was written. He would definately be a good resource and so would the Az. pathways site author.

laini
05-03-2007, 10:21 PM
Wow! I wonder if he is Brody! Great searching guys!
The very similar big ears really "popped out" at me especially. :crazy:

Gina_M
05-03-2007, 11:37 PM
Wow...good work, guys! I remember reading about this case a bit, probably before I ever knew about Anna. I think regardless of the DNA results, and even regardless of whether Brody was involved in Anna's disappearance, it would be good to know where he came from.

I might order a copy of that book.

Gina_M
05-04-2007, 12:03 AM
Whoever Bessie was, she was involved with Glenn during the missing years, the rafting years. And the big scar on Glenn’s back was from Bessie. She had stabbed him.http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-4/glen.html

Wow...from reading this page, it sounds like Glen and Glenn were the same person. Reading about this scar mentioned above...do we know whether Brody had a scar on his back?

mysteriew
05-04-2007, 12:28 AM
A relatively decent picture of Glen Hyde and Bessie in the canyon trip (toward the bottom of the page)
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0403/excerpt4.html

mysteriew
05-04-2007, 12:33 AM
Of the books written about the Hydes they are described here.

Where Michaels' depiction of Glen and Bessie, and Glen's father Reith Hyde's persistent search for the lost couple, focuses on the inner workings of the chracters under extreme stress, Dimock sets out to explore many of the rumors surrounding the Hyde's disappearance that have become river-running folklore: Glen flew into a rage and killed Bessie; Bessie killed Glen and lived under a pseudonym to an old age; both were killed by wild animals while attempting to hike out of the Canyon. For the most part, the legends are quashed, and Dimock concludes that neither he, nor anyone else, can say with certainty what happened to the Hydes. snip

Both authors relied heavily on archival material collected by Otis Marston, a river runner and amateur historian whose papers are housed in the Huntington Library in San Marino, Calif., Michaels using the Hyde archives as a bare outline of facts to be filled in with her own imaginative treatment, and Dimock using them as a stepping off point for further, more detailed research.

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2001-07-26/fineprint.html

mysteriew
05-04-2007, 12:43 AM
I was intrigued by the woman who was possibly connected to the Hydes after their disappearance and after her death. But it looks like they did rule her out based on her physical characteristics and Dimock's research.

http://www.grandcanyontreks.org/georgie.htm

mysteriew
05-04-2007, 12:57 AM
More about Bessie. It tells about a woman she met and became roommates with (a woman with her own history and a name change because of a murder she was accused of) and the rather racy life she lived before meeting Hyde. Gives some insight into the type of people she may have been attracted to.
It is also by Dimock
http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-2/bessie.html

Can we confirm Margaret K. back to 1928?

At some point Bessie lived somewhere in Pa. Margaret is from Durham, Pa. Is there a connection, could she have assumed the name?

One thing that is peculiar, I see a lot where the Hyde father was very involved in the search (he reportedly bankrupted himself searching)- but not anything about Bessie Hyde's father being involved. Maybe it is lost to history, maybe they didn't talk to newspapers, or maybe they knew something?

Bessie had her own little history. She was in college when she married a boy from her high school. There were rumors of a pregnancy, but not confirmed. She was only married a very short time (weeks) before she tried to get a divorce. There are rumors of abuse. When he refused to give the divorce, she moved to Nevada to get the divorce.

She meets Hyde and soon marries him. The two of them stay on her father's farm for a month then go on the trip.

She is young, doing all of this moving around, it is 1928 and she is female. And she has a history of a short 'scandalous' marriage, and then a year later another marriage. She lived on her own in Calif. for a time. She and Hyde are in a high stress environment in the canyon and some reports say she wasn't happy. If she decided to quit the marriage, would she go back home to the farm?

More history on Hyde. And this site says that Bessie's father was involved in the search.
http://www.unsolvedhistories.com/mysteries/hyde.htm

GraceBlue
05-04-2007, 08:40 AM
Wow! All of this is amazing! You are great sleuthers!

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 09:02 AM
At this particular juncture, I have logged most of this info over the past few weeks, and have come to the idea that I would like input on a question list for Mr. Dimock. I was holding off, but it seems that all of you are in agreement that we have a "possible GB" here. I will contact Mr. Dimock after we all get to gether here and make a list of the most tactful and relevant questions regarding Glen as we possibly can. It is more about dates, places, and mannerisms, etc. that will give us a good question list with which to proceed. Please feel free to add your questions that you think are pertinent, and this will give us a chance to be in agreement here, as to what is most important in our quest. Question away!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-04-2007, 09:10 AM
]......snip... She was in college when she married a boy from her high school. There were rumors of a pregnancy, but not confirmed. She was only married a very short time (weeks) before she tried to get a divorce. There are rumors of abuse. When he refused to give the divorce, she moved to Nevada to get the divorce.

She meets Hyde and soon marries him. The two of them stay on her father's farm for a month then go on the trip.


I'm sure different web sites say different things, but according to what I've read She met Hyde while she was still married to her 1st husband on a passenger ship going from SF to LA. She was married for much longer than 2 weeks, but only actually lived with him for 2 weeks. One article says she got married and then went home to live with her parents for awhile, (to have a baby?)



She is young, doing all of this moving around, it is 1928 and she is female. And she has a history of a short 'scandalous' marriage, and then a year later another marriage. She lived on her own in Calif. for a time. She and Hyde are in a high stress environment in the canyon and some reports say she wasn't happy. If she decided to quit the marriage, would she go back home to the farm?


It was my impression the farm was that of Hyde's father. When Bessie & Glenn where married they went to his family farm and worked for the summer before taking their honeymoon adventure.


Sadly even if Brody and Hyde are the same person, it might never be proven. Brody was cremated, and Hyde vanished. I doubt DNA could ever prove anything unless there are a couple of hairbrushes saved throughout history...LOL

Gosh how I wish I had the Box from Hell (Safe deposit box) Ever since I heard it exist, I've often thought this whole mystery could be solved by going through it inch by inch. :boohoo:

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 09:25 AM
I want to express here a big THANK YOU for everyone's help in this. I cannot tell you how many cases I have researched that are old missing persons, in the last 6 months, and hearing that you all agree means alot to me. I also would like to hear the doubts about a match, for balancing why Glen MAY NOT BE GB....Thank you all, very much, I will compile a question list during the course of this weekend, and have it early next week for you all!

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 09:30 AM
I am currently working land records and public records on the families to see if we have any names or transfer titles or anything that may give us a hint into a connection. This does take a long time, considering that there is more than one state involved here, but IF I can cross connect, it will make an important find.

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 09:36 AM
More about Bessie. It tells about a woman she met and became roommates with (a woman with her own history and a name change because of a murder she was accused of) and the rather racy life she lived before meeting Hyde. Gives some insight into the type of people she may have been attracted to.
It is also by Dimock
http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/13-2/bessie.html
Great find, Mysteriew...all of these are pages from his book I believe...most are posted out there, but not all.

Isn't it amazing that their bay area connections are so specific to the same area? Utterly interesting ties....will do more research here

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-04-2007, 11:14 AM
Well heck, we've got a problem. Looking back at old posts Annasmom stated that Brody was a rather short man. 5'4" to 5'5". I just read that Glen was around 6'. I realize people shrink with age, but probably not 6 or 7 inches...LOL Oh well, back to the drawing board.

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 11:49 AM
I tried to post links to the pics, not the actual pic, if you are seeing the pic I must delete it, as these have copyright, and I cannot post them, just a link....weird, I saw only a link, now I see a picture posted...sorry, gotta remove them!

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 11:53 AM
Was he really that short? He seemed so much taller in the pic of him on the street...what post did she put his height in? If you might know...thanks interested woman...

mysteriew
05-04-2007, 12:07 PM
Well heck, we've got a problem. Looking back at old posts Annasmom stated that Brody was a rather short man. 5'4" to 5'5". I just read that Glen was around 6'. I realize people shrink with age, but probably not 6 or 7 inches...LOL Oh well, back to the drawing board.

LOL, that is something that can't be faked. Oh well, it was worth a shot.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-04-2007, 12:11 PM
Orginally posted May 2005, Post 478, Orginal Theory #2 thread

Originally Posted by HeartofTexas
Does anyone know approximately how tall George Brody was? And, if not, is there any way we can guesstimate it by judging his height against GW's height (which I assume Annasmom would know)? The reason I'm asking is because many of the WWII enlistment records list the height of the person enlisting, and it would help in eliminating some of them if I know GB's approximate height.

Annasmom reply:
I would guess about 5'4" or 5'5", though he might have been taller when he was young.

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 12:59 PM
Ugg, that is really really short for a man, I am surprised he was that short. I know that GB did something in his past, ie.left a wife and kids, violence of some sort, fraud, something that made him change his identity, and I am gonna figure it out! LOL

InterestedNHelping
05-04-2007, 01:02 PM
I had another thought on the guy, and perhaps Sherlock or Dr. Doogie can help with this one...in the book, it was written that many different alias' were used while the two men resided in SF. It may be possible that between all of the different alias' we could cipher out a name that might be credible...do you know what all the alias names are from the BFH? Thanks!

MagicRose99
05-04-2007, 01:04 PM
I doubt the difference would be 5 to 6 inches... when you get older and your bones "settle" you only lose maybe 1 to 2 inches max.

Dr. Doogie
05-04-2007, 01:13 PM
I had another thought on the guy, and perhaps Sherlock or Dr. Doogie can help with this one...in the book, it was written that many different alias' were used while the two men resided in SF. It may be possible that between all of the different alias' we could cipher out a name that might be credible...do you know what all the alias names are from the BFH? Thanks!

Brody
George Brody
George Bee (B)
"Bobby" - this one may be the most likely real first name

Waters
George Waters
He registered at the hotel as "Walters", but that may have been an error by the clerk

Kukoda
Margaret Kukoda
Mary Kukoda
Mary Kay (K)

Cubby
05-04-2007, 06:48 PM
Brody
George Brody
George Bee (B)
"Bobby" - this one may be the most likely real first name

Waters
George Waters
He registered at the hotel as "Walters", but that may have been an error by the clerk

Kukoda
Margaret Kukoda
Mary Kukoda
Mary Kay (K)


Is it thought he is of English decent or European decent with a name which could have been shortened or changed to sound more American ( considering many families did so back then) Any clue? I recall some old posts thinking he may have been hungarian.

Dr. Doogie
05-04-2007, 06:53 PM
I recall some old posts thinking he may have been hungarian.

I think the Hungarian theory came from the fact that Kukoda's family was from Hungary and that immigrants in the first half of the 20th century tended to live and socialize with people of similar ethnic backgrounds.

Julessleuther
05-05-2007, 02:35 AM
Hi--I have looked and looked but cannot seem to find it. Do we have any pictures of Margaret posted here? The only reason I ask is because there is an interesting thread in cold cases, and the fact that the missing woman is a nurse AND went to San Francisco in 1939 or so rang bells for me.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1473832&posted=1#post1473832

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-05-2007, 10:24 AM
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d933b3127cce8b6ffa8df42100000016108EbNXLdoxam

Here you go Jules. The eyes don't seem right, but then again the newspaper Pic of MK looks like she has tons of dark eye shadow on. The curly dark hair looks the same.

ETA: I think the credit for that link goes to GraceBlue. :)

NJshrink
05-07-2007, 09:56 PM
In researching Black Dahlia site www.blackdahliasolution.org/ I came across a cryptographic interpretation of writing by an Ed Burns aka Maurice Clements, William Heirens, George Murman and notices one picture of George Brody and his "philosophy" with the same type of writing. It seems that George Brody may also have been some of those listed above. Reports suggest that he was hospitalized after his wife killed self and baby daughter. Perhaps , if this is the same person, it might account with his obsession with Anna and her father. What does anyone think of this theory?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-08-2007, 10:27 AM
In researching Black Dahlia site www.blackdahliasolution.org/ (http://www.blackdahliasolution.org/) I came across a cryptographic interpretation of writing by an Ed Burns aka Maurice Clements, William Heirens, George Murman and notices one picture of George Brody and his "philosophy" with the same type of writing. It seems that George Brody may also have been some of those listed above. Reports suggest that he was hospitalized after his wife killed self and baby daughter. Perhaps , if this is the same person, it might account with his obsession with Anna and her father. What does anyone think of this theory?

I'm not sure what you mean. You think George Brody could be the same person as this Ed Burns? According to the link you posted, he committed suicide two years after the Black Dalia murder. around 1949. I didn't see anywhere that mentioned a wife. Could you offer more information?

InterestedNHelping
05-08-2007, 10:54 AM
I have briefly, due to the volumnes of info out there, researched this idea you presented. It holds water with many, many aspects, it does have amazing correlations in so many ways! it would leave us with several theories...GB was alive during this time and may have been the guy, though unlikely because he was too 'self absorbed' from what I hear, to not tell everybody he did it, and he was too lazy to actually do anything himself.
Or, he was a copycat, and had a secret to hide, because he may have thought the guy was smart, and he tried to be 'smart' too.
Or, he was also studied in many areas of the same ideas, like the akashic records, numerology and also cryptology and he has many similarities, but came from a different background.
There are ALOT of theories beyond this, and the similarities are worth exploration, but the actual info is very elaborated these days, though there is are some,( very few) sites that are not posting erroneous info. The actual police file is online somewhere, but its FBI and was not really their case, so only some original info is in it.

You have some excellent sleuthing there, and possiblity of connection is there, but whether or not we could ever figure it out, since sooo many have tried and there are so many suspects is another thing. the details of Brody and the murder are interestingly connected and intertwined with so many things, it makes it a crazy research project and undertaking, whew! What a possibility!
Its all those small details that are so intriguing, makes me want to learn more, and I am doing so...wouldn't that be somethin? LOL...I hope he's not, this story is very disturbing, but stranger things have happened!
Thanks NJShrink, you got me thinkin...

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-08-2007, 11:12 AM
I noticed something strange the other day when I was following up on my "Jonestown" theory. As you may remember I have referred back to a particular sub family (The Brady's) that I feel may have some ties to the 2 Georges. What is weird is all of a sudden there is an anonymous "In Memory" posted for one of the children.

Mother: Michaeleen Patricia Brady, b. 5-14-43
Daughter: Georgiann Patricia Brady, b. 12-23-65
Daughter: Michele Margaret Brady, b. 12-2-66 (Less than a year after Georgiann)

Michele Margaret is the only one the anonymous poster wrote to. Why only her? If it where the missing father of the 2 girls why didn't he write something for both daughters? If it where any relative, why not the whole family, why this one particular girl? The only thing I can think of is my theory is right and they are not related to Michaeleen nor any of her 4 other adult siblings that also went to Jonestown. Matter of fact, Michele Margaret Brady is the only one in the entire extended family of 9 that went with any "In Memory" posted.

Michaeleen is listed as a Hair dresser and a part time pre-school teacher before Jonestown. She also had a child named Elizabeth who was born and died on 12-16-64 (12 mo and 1 week before Georgiann)

InterestedNHelping
05-08-2007, 11:25 AM
As I read the actual FBI file, the only thing I keep thinking is that Brody probably loved a mystery, and had read the story, or was in some way loosly connected via the media, or his job (?) and he loved pretending a mystery...just a guess here...

As for the story of the Jonestown idea, I looked into that some time ago, and I cannot remember why I didn't think it matched up, but if you think you have something, keep going. Often times, people will put those internet flowers on a case, when they are researching something, and feel that a positive note will be of spiritual importance...I think that you can email the poster, then maybe it won't be as strange as it appears...

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-08-2007, 11:57 AM
...As for the story of the Jonestown idea, I looked into that some time ago, and I cannot remember why I didn't think it matched up, but if you think you have something, keep going. Often times, people will put those internet flowers on a case, when they are researching something, and feel that a positive note will be of spiritual importance...I think that you can email the poster, then maybe it won't be as strange as it appears...


I can't e-mail the poster, they left it as anonymous. Yes it could be anyone...just a well wisher, but it is rather odd. I have eased up on this quest with Jonestown as we all await the DNA results, but there are so many coincidences that I can not put it behind me....yet. I've entertained several ideas on what happened, but usually dismiss it quickly when I uncover evidence to not support the theory...(Like the Hyde deal.) It took just a few hours to realize they where not the same....but so far, I can not find anything to drop this...I'm praying DNA results will surely put an end to this madness of mine!

InterestedNHelping
05-08-2007, 12:07 PM
I know what you mean with the madness, LOL...even if C is Anna, no matter how she was taken, the mystery will remain, you realize, because no one knows who GB actually was....YET...
I can't stand it, I gotta figure it out! I have done this where it seemed impossible before, so with all these folks like you working on it, we may come up with the answer, which may just shed more light on what happened overall...I can't see GB doing anything himself, IF he was involved it was to keep his hands clean probably, but then, he may have been smarter than we are giving him credit for...keep going with your work, you may be on to something.
I can't seem to find anything that can give us a real height on GB,( I do understand what Annasmom said though) the pics with him and GW seem to appear that they are closer in height than a man of 5'4", at least that is my opinion at this point, I haven't really ruled out anyone by height, at least not yet!

InterestedNHelping
05-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Here is something I have determined, and would like to see what others think...I do not know if this idea has been covered before, but I don't think so...
I have noticed that when GB wrote something down, he often had trouble with his vowels, as if he used another language, mixing up o, u, mostly. I noticed specifically, that on the chart that is written, he must have copied it down until he had no spelling errors, because there does not seem to be any write overs, like he has on other things, that he only wrote once, like his photo note. I think it is very possible that he was bilingual, maybe German, because of this. I wondered if it was because he had Always been bilingual, otherwise, if a language is learned later, we tend to not make those grammatical errors. He seems to have it really 'ground' into him, and his writing, which may account for some background on him, which appears to me, to be German...any thoughts?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Annasmom said that the "flow chart" and "the plan" where both written by Waters. Brody would dictate to him and he would write.

InterestedNHelping
05-08-2007, 12:44 PM
That would explain why I thought his handwriting was so different when he got older, lol, I knew about the plan, but thought he did the chart.. makes you wonder why he never wrote things down...I can't bellieve if George was his name, why on earth he couldn't spell it without mistake on his own photo...sure tells you he doens't seem to be a "George"...look up close at the photo spelling, see what you think

NJshrink
05-09-2007, 04:17 PM
I am not certain that George Brody is the one involved with the Black Dahlia theory but I do think that the oddity of his writing (which some believe is a crytographic code) bears striking similarities. Note the way he signed his "eternity" picture. Is annasmom 100% certain that the "philosophy" was written by Waters? Even if it were dictated to him, the lines and arrows suggest the same oddity of the Ed/George person in the Dahlia cite. Please also read the history of the Ed/George person suggested in this cite and see if any of the geographical and/or time references overlap. Just hypothesizing!

NJshrink
05-10-2007, 05:47 PM
Again, I am just thinking out loud. Yes, I am a shrink so I often have to think as someone psychotic may. The Ed Burns/Barnes/George Murman who wrote to the LA police may not have actually been involved in the Black Dahlia's demise. What we seem to know about the letter writer is that his mom may have been named Esther Gold..something. It seems to be in the FBI file. Perhaps and I say perhaps his seeming lack of a job was because he may have been an abortionist with perhaps some medical training. Remember abortion only became legal in the early 70's. His family, if I remember correctly, was from Europe and Jewish. There were some hypotheses that aft he returned from the military with a psychiatric condition. His first wife presumably killed their child and self. One does not know if this is true. If this Burnes/Barnes is Brody it is also said that he abandoned his second wife in 1946 ish. There may have been a ruse about suiciding as the LAPD may have been hot on his tail as an abortionist. He may have then resurfaced as George Brody. Along another track, there were a number of unsolved shooting/slashing murders between 1946 and 47 called the Moonlight Murders of Texarkana. I don't know if there may be any ties to that. Also, if anyone can tell me more about George Waters family, where he came from, his parents, etc. that might help organize how and why he and George Brody became friends. I have a vague feeling they may have had some earlier connection. When one is psychotic as George Brody probably was, their thinking is often tangential and associative. While the "Effie" name may seem to have number value, it may also mean something else. Any thoughts or information?

Annasbro
05-10-2007, 06:01 PM
George W. was a Princeton grad that went Columbia Med school. His family were missionaries that were at one point interred in a concentration camp in the south pacific during WW2. I think this information is in my Mom's book on this site or in the background details of the case

GraceBlue
05-10-2007, 06:17 PM
George W. was a Princeton grad that went Columbia Med school. His family were missionaries that were at one point interred in a concentration camp in the south pacific during WW2. I think this information is in my Mom's book on this site or in the background details of the case

A bit off the point. Since you are Anna's brother. I hope you don't mind me asking this. You dont have to answer if you are not comfortable answering this but how are YOU feeling? All of us on here are expressing anxiety, excitement, nervousness, etc etc. What is going through your mind as we wait for the results? I am sure a lot!

MagicRose99
05-10-2007, 06:18 PM
I think Doogie took the links for the book down while the current situation is happening... I know I still have it on one of my PCs somewhere... if you want to email me NJshrink, I'll share with you...

Annasbro
05-10-2007, 06:37 PM
As you can see, I am on line here churning away at work and trying to distract myself. Talk radio in one ear, working on a complicated project with most of my conciousness, and periodically checking in with you sleuths. The results will be in at any time. I have been trying to exercise a little emotional separation otherwise I couldn't function. I have tried to prepare myself for a number of the possible outcomes including a match with the remains of someone else in the system. It is all very difficult but I am ok. Thanks for asking.

mysteriew
05-10-2007, 08:21 PM
I've noticed you peeking in a few times in the last couple of days, but have been trying to restrain myself from questioning you. I am glad you are surviving. Hopefully it won't be much longer now.

GraceBlue
05-10-2007, 08:23 PM
I think they know the results now. I saw Doogie online and "Creating a Thread" He signed off. Now I am having an anxiety attack

MagicRose99
05-10-2007, 08:23 PM
As you can see, I am on line here churning away at work and trying to distract myself. Talk radio in one ear, working on a complicated project with most of my conciousness, and periodically checking in with you sleuths. The results will be in at any time. I have been trying to exercise a little emotional separation otherwise I couldn't function. I have tried to prepare myself for a number of the possible outcomes including a match with the remains of someone else in the system. It is all very difficult but I am ok. Thanks for asking.

(((HUGS))) Annasbro! We're here with you... even if it's silently...

JDB
05-10-2007, 08:23 PM
I think they know the results now. I saw Doogie online and "Creating a Thread" He signed off. Now I am having an anxiety attack

I saw that to!!!! Doug come back and tell us something please

GraceBlue
05-10-2007, 08:49 PM
Ok...now that we know C isn't Anna. More than ever I am determined to find Anna. I am willing to contribute a lot...even if it means traveling by plane to other cities to check out libraries, public records, etc. My husband is a librarian and he is an excellent researcher. I will get him involved in the search for Anna.

Back to the drawing board...

Few things about GB and GW that REALLY bother me:

-The "I am glad the tot is dead" statement (although it may not be related to Anna)
-GB's weird obession with Anna
-The fact that GW took a week off work around the time Anna went missing.
-The handwritten "Jan 1973" note that was found in BFH (I believe?)

I am not 100% convinced that they were involved in Anna's disapearrance but I think it is worth looking into.

smile22
05-10-2007, 09:17 PM
back to searching but we wont give up we have alot of good people involved in this case we will keep on searching for answers

InterestedNHelping
05-10-2007, 09:22 PM
I am still 'mostly convinced' that the two George's did have some involvement in this, I will continue to work on GB's identity.

NJshrink
05-10-2007, 10:25 PM
The name "Effie" is a nickname for Esther. Remember the EdBurnes/Barnes/George Murman's mother was named Esther. Another thought is that in the psychotic's mind having a name that is Christian wouldn't work especially if your background might be Jewish originally. Another thought, again if I remember this correctly, an older woman took Anna as a babysitter. Perhaps someone in Brody's family thought they were rescuing a little girl from a "psychotic" relative as a help not fully realizing at the time what this was. I'm sorry to hear that the DNA for a "C" is not a match.

GraceBlue
05-11-2007, 08:05 AM
Annasmom/Doogie- I know it is soon after getting the negative DNA results. I have 2 questions. When (what year) did GW meet GB? Was GW ever a president of the SF Kiwanis club in 1966? http://www.kiwanissanfrancisco.org/about_kiwanis_sf.shtml
Is it possible Brody was also a member?
Thank you.

GraceBlue
05-11-2007, 08:14 AM
The name "Effie" is a nickname for Esther. Remember the EdBurnes/Barnes/George Murman's mother was named Esther. Another thought is that in the psychotic's mind having a name that is Christian wouldn't work especially if your background might be Jewish originally. Another thought, again if I remember this correctly, an older woman took Anna as a babysitter. Perhaps someone in Brody's family thought they were rescuing a little girl from a "psychotic" relative as a help not fully realizing at the time what this was. I'm sorry to hear that the DNA for a "C" is not a match.


That is interesting because Esther (I believe) was Margaret Kukoda's mother's name. Anna's middle name was spelled Eifee not Effie but I wonder if GB mispelled it by accident or on purpose? It will be interesting to ask Annasmom if she has anything in the BFH that was written by GB to see if he wrote words as they sounded which often results in mispelling.

I highly doubt GB's family 'rescued' Anna from them because according to the hotel GB and GW lived in, they didnt have visitors. I am sure they would have mentioned a little blonde girl to Joe Ford when he asked if they had visitors. But that is an interesting theory. We have looked into the possibility of the two Georges taking Anna and giving her to either Brody or Kukoda's family.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-11-2007, 09:37 AM
Brody
George Brody
George Bee (B)
"Bobby" - this one may be the most likely real first name

Waters
George Waters
He registered at the hotel as "Walters", but that may have been an error by the clerk

Kukoda
Margaret Kukoda
Mary Kukoda
Mary Kay (K)

I wanted to add that IF George Brody's Friend Margaret is in fact the Margaret Kukoda of Bucks County PA, (Born in NJ 1921 & Daughter of Esther and Anthony). This family had several variations on the spelling of their last name. So there is a possibility she could have used any of them throughout the years.

1910 Census they spelled it Kukido and Kuksdo
1920 Census they spelled it Kahnke and Kokoda
1930 Census they spelled it Kukoda, (Though 2 brothers continued to spell it Kokoda in 1930 when they where living in MI.) On the death and SS records of the male family members the name was finally spelled Kukoda.

Esthers mother was Susanna Boeniat according to the 1910 census, stating that she was the head of the house holds Mother- in- Law.

GraceBlue
05-11-2007, 10:10 AM
I've been looking into the name Eifee. I tried a different spelling: EifFee with 2 fs and it appears to be a last name. Could it be GB's "real" last name? Or Margaret's real last name? Or one of their family names.

Ok, now according to this http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/Fact.aspx?&fid=7&ln=Eiffee&fn=&yr=1880 people with the last name Eiffee in the 1880s lived in Massachusetts and in the 1920s in New York. New York is right above Pennsylvania.

All this probably means nothing but if it does, it could bring us closer to GB's real identity.

InterestedNHelping
05-11-2007, 10:15 AM
GraceBlue, you are also looking at a similar theory that I was thinking...this is my thought, that the name Eifee, was who they were GOING TO GIVE ANNA TO, and it might be a last name, then there would be no legal question as to her background if the birth certificate had already been changed, well before the fact. ANy thoughts that Eifee or any variation therof, might have been who actually has Anna? I have always thought this was a possiblility, since it would be unquestioned legally.

GraceBlue
05-11-2007, 10:35 AM
InterestedNHelping- That is an interesting theory. But my question is, they waited 5 long years from the time Anna was born/they added Eifee to her name before kidnapping her and giving her to someone else?

Couple of thoughts I have: Maybe GB's real last name was Eifee/Eiffee and he felt 'left out' of the excitement of Anna's birth and wanted his name included next to the Waters name? Is there any way we can look up military records for someone with the last name Eifee and Eiffee? Did they take out life insurance policies and use both GB's real and fake names?

InterestedNHelping
05-11-2007, 12:59 PM
My first theory is that GB formulated this plan from the moment he met Anna. Just a theory..the other theory that I am following is that he is closer to home than we think, and I have a guy that I have found that is born in CA, is a leo, is older than what GB said he actually was, and ironically, this man has not died, and would be 97 years old. I am trying to track him, see what happened to him, and if he might really be GB.

ANother theory I have held to, is that they took her out of the country, with that name. ACE means many things, and I think it was calculated, though I wonder how many names they went through before deciding, and how close the names resembled this one.

Military records are searchable all over the net, and he could be found, but I think we really have to find a real name first. Eifee is very abstract, and I dont think it was GBs name, he was too secretive to do that in my opinion.

I am following up various ideas at this time, if I find anything I will certainly post it!

GraceBlue
05-11-2007, 03:57 PM
InterestedNHelping- That's an interesting theory. Let us know what you find on this "GB" fellow! Geez, how did GB come up with a fake name and Eifee? He must've just opened up a telephone book! Really!

What country do you think they took Anna to?


_____

Has anyone followed up with Margaret Kukoda's sister Madlyn to find out if the woman in the picture we have is in fact Margaret Kukoda and see if they know anything about GB? I think if anything, the truth about GB lies with Madlyn and her family and possibly all the photographs and letters from Margaret she may have kept (if there are any)...or even better, Margaret's personal posessions.

GraceBlue
05-11-2007, 08:24 PM
I hate going this direction but...why (all of the sudden) do I have this bad 'feeling' that GW and GB could have been involved in Anna's disappearance. Perhaps it was all for money and GB knew how to get GW and Anna fake identities/stolen identities, GW (being a doctor) had access to medicine such as cyanide. They could've filed for an insurance policy under fake names, given Anna cyanide or something, filed for a death certificate, had her cremated (which could be why we can't find her) and gotten insurance money all under the false names.

Doogie, are there ANY names in the BFH? If so, can you write them all down so we can look into whether there were any insurance policies filed under that name or if there are any death certificates under a certain name?

I hate being negative, I certainly hope this is NOT what happened but it is all just a theory.

NJshrink
05-11-2007, 09:56 PM
I think some of you are clearly onto something. "Elizabeth" Ann "Anna" Peggy (sic Margaret) Bouslag Davis, a nurse went missing somewhere between 1939 and 1944. She apparently left Colorado with a "John Spooner" to go to San Francisco. She was a nurse in Colorado at Jewish National Hospital in the 1030's and at the Presidio Military hospital in SF in the 1940's. She was being investigated for performing illegal abortions during that time. There is the newspaper article link a few posts ago. Her children couldn't find her in the 1940's. Apparently she told them she was "going out to sea." This may be the woman GB married. Ironically no one can find actual records on her either. See the picture on Anna Waters my space for Elizabeth Davis and read the history. Something tells me there is a connection with abortions/baby rings. Remember, once abortions became legal in the US, back room ones were less lucrative. Perhaps another means was needed for financial purposes, especially for GB. Any thoughts?

mysteriew
05-12-2007, 01:48 AM
I think some of you are clearly onto something. "Elizabeth" Ann "Anna" Peggy (sic Margaret) Bouslag Davis, a nurse went missing somewhere between 1939 and 1944. She apparently left Colorado with a "John Spooner" to go to San Francisco. She was a nurse in Colorado at Jewish National Hospital in the 1030's and at the Presidio Military hospital in SF in the 1940's. She was being investigated for performing illegal abortions during that time. There is the newspaper article link a few posts ago. Her children couldn't find her in the 1940's. Apparently she told them she was "going out to sea." This may be the woman GB married. Ironically no one can find actual records on her either. See the picture on Anna Waters my space for Elizabeth Davis and read the history. Something tells me there is a connection with abortions/baby rings. Remember, once abortions became legal in the US, back room ones were less lucrative. Perhaps another means was needed for financial purposes, especially for GB. Any thoughts?

A lot of that matches up to the Margaret K. info.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1059881&highlight=presido#post1059881

GraceBlue
05-12-2007, 07:44 AM
I think some of you are clearly onto something. "Elizabeth" Ann "Anna" Peggy (sic Margaret) Bouslag Davis, a nurse went missing somewhere between 1939 and 1944. She apparently left Colorado with a "John Spooner" to go to San Francisco. She was a nurse in Colorado at Jewish National Hospital in the 1030's and at the Presidio Military hospital in SF in the 1940's. She was being investigated for performing illegal abortions during that time. There is the newspaper article link a few posts ago. Her children couldn't find her in the 1940's. Apparently she told them she was "going out to sea." This may be the woman GB married. Ironically no one can find actual records on her either. See the picture on Anna Waters my space for Elizabeth Davis and read the history. Something tells me there is a connection with abortions/baby rings. Remember, once abortions became legal in the US, back room ones were less lucrative. Perhaps another means was needed for financial purposes, especially for GB. Any thoughts?

Wow you are good!!! Thank you for sharing that informatin with us! Where did you find the information about Ann Peggy Bouslag Davis if you dont mind me asking?

Now...lets dig deeper to find out if that is Margaret's real identity!

Shadow205
05-12-2007, 08:45 AM
I think some of you are clearly onto something. "Elizabeth" Ann "Anna" Peggy (sic Margaret) Bouslag Davis, a nurse went missing somewhere between 1939 and 1944. She apparently left Colorado with a "John Spooner" to go to San Francisco. She was a nurse in Colorado at Jewish National Hospital in the 1030's and at the Presidio Military hospital in SF in the 1940's. She was being investigated for performing illegal abortions during that time. There is the newspaper article link a few posts ago. Her children couldn't find her in the 1940's. Apparently she told them she was "going out to sea." This may be the woman GB married. Ironically no one can find actual records on her either. See the picture on Anna Waters my space for Elizabeth Davis and read the history. Something tells me there is a connection with abortions/baby rings. Remember, once abortions became legal in the US, back room ones were less lucrative. Perhaps another means was needed for financial purposes, especially for GB. Any thoughts?

Link please

Cubby
05-12-2007, 09:49 AM
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=144755243

I think this is the link.

GraceBlue
05-12-2007, 10:21 AM
More info with a bigger picture:

http://bouslog.info/

She used so many names :waitasec: Anna, Peggy, Peg, Elizabeth Ann

This site even lists her social security #

GraceBlue
05-12-2007, 10:28 AM
I think Elizabeth Bouslog Davis could be too old to be Margaret Kukoda but with GB listing a fake birth year anything is possible :rolleyes:

mysteriew
05-12-2007, 02:42 PM
I think Elizabeth Bouslog Davis could be too old to be Margaret Kukoda but with GB listing a fake birth year anything is possible :rolleyes:

The myspace site has both Sharon Marshall and Anna Waters friends on it. Which means that someone from here has already looked at the info. We need to find out if a comparison has been made with MK and what the results were.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-12-2007, 03:48 PM
Julessleuther is the one who first made the possible connection.


Hi--I have looked and looked but cannot seem to find it. Do we have any pictures of Margaret posted here? The only reason I ask is because there is an interesting thread in cold cases, and the fact that the missing woman is a nurse AND went to San Francisco in 1939 or so rang bells for me.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1473832&posted=1#post1473832

Gina_M
05-12-2007, 05:15 PM
Hi all,

I originally noticed the Elizabeth Ann Bouslog Davis page on MySpace and started a thread for her here on WS in Cold Cases. Not even thinking of a MK connection at the time, just wanting to help the case get more exposure. Julessleuther is really good...she noticed the possible MK connection. My sleuthing skills aren't the best, so anyone here is welcome to look into it. I've been writing with the lady running the MySpace profile, and any info she gives me I post on the thread in Cold Cases. I can ask her if she's heard of MK, maybe direct her to Anna's forum to read up on it. Good work, everyone!

NJshrink
05-12-2007, 05:32 PM
I am new to wed sleuths, so I may often post something that was previously covered. The Anna Bouslog Davis was from a www.myspace.com/ann_bouslog . The newspaper article of Margaret Kukoda being indicted for illegal abortions was on your link but I'll try to post that link.http://im1shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d933b3127cce8bffadf421...
I think she and George B were an item and kept changing their identities whenever things got too hot in their abortion and later baby selling ring. When I read the "Plan" it seemed to say contract money (sic) final arrangements with the L's bank been made (Jan 1973) Apply for $100,000 with (some other person) as (name hidden). This was reference, I'm hypothesizing, to an application of some sort to deposit $ and somehow launder it.
Also, has anyone actually seen the death certificate for Mary, George B or George W in person?
Also, at the risk of seeming intrusive, I do have access to Princeton and Columbia University alumni sites, so can I please have more specific information about the years Waters graduated and exactly where his internships and residencies were and what years. Was there ever a mention of exactly who his parents were and if they were involved (positively) after their grandchild went missing?

Gina_M
05-12-2007, 06:10 PM
Also, has anyone actually seen the death certificate for Mary, George B or George W in person?
Also, at the risk of seeming intrusive, I do have access to Princeton and Columbia University alumni sites, so can I please have more specific information about the years Waters graduated and exactly where his internships and residencies were and what years. Was there ever a mention of exactly who his parents were and if they were involved (positively) after their grandchild went missing?

These questions can be answered best by Dr. Doogie or Annasmom; however I do know that Annasmom has kept in touch with George Waters' family and is certain they were not involved in Anna's disappearance. See this post from Annasmom:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1194323&postcount=58

Gina_M
05-12-2007, 06:29 PM
Skimming through the "Searching for Anna" manuscript...

George Waters graduated from Princeton in 1961. He began an internship at San Francisco General Hospital in 1966.

MagicRose99
05-12-2007, 07:08 PM
I think it may be a good idea to just stop... sit back... and let's regroup. I believe we should wait for our fearless leader to lay out what we already know, what we've looked into and what we need to look into next. If there are theories, put those forth to be looked into...

I really feel that things are going off every which way at this time in our rush to help and we need to just stop and find out where we should go next instead of losing our focus and objectives and wasting resources, ideas and time.

I really do not mean to offend anyone, but right now, all I'm see are jumbled efforts and thoughts...

And remember, Doogie did ask for time for them to regroup and get their thoughts back on track...

NJshrink
05-12-2007, 07:56 PM
I keep reading the "plan. It's getting clearer. The no. 2 I think goes something like this: Apply for $100.000 with Arizona female as ???Brouslag??? No. 3 Three months later negotiate an increase to 5 ? Then someword I cannot yet make out ...with Arizona female No. 4 three months later change B (birthdate?) While I have no idea if this relates to Anna's disappearance, I think it may speak to baby/child abductions and sales. I have begun to also wonder about some of the women who might have been pregnant about that time. I wonder if they all made it back home alive. Maybe a stretch, but that's how shrinks think, sorry.

mfmangel1
05-12-2007, 08:18 PM
I think it may be a good idea to just stop... sit back... and let's regroup. I believe we should wait for our fearless leader to lay out what we already know, what we've looked into and what we need to look into next. If there are theories, put those forth to be looked into...

I really feel that things are going off every which way at this time in our rush to help and we need to just stop and find out where we should go next instead of losing our focus and objectives and wasting resources, ideas and time.

I really do not mean to offend anyone, but right now, all I'm see are jumbled efforts and thoughts...

And remember, Doogie did ask for time for them to regroup and get their thoughts back on track...


I completely agree with you. A LOT of the ground has previously been covered. No offense to any newcomers, but you really must read the forum from the very beginning to know the total amount of work that has already been completed. Even the members that have been here for a while sometimes forget everything that has been covered previously!

And, yes, we need to take a breath, stay focused, and not jump around wasting a lot of our resources on unsubstantiated ideas.

There are already several sound theories that need more investigation and I am sure Doogie and Annasmom will want to point the investigation in those directions when they are ready.

I hope everyone has a good week-end.

Happy Mother's Day to Annasmom and to all Moms at Websleuths!

GraceBlue
05-12-2007, 09:33 PM
I completely agree with you. A LOT of the ground has previously been covered. No offense to any newcomers, but you really must read the forum from the very beginning to know the total amount of work that has already been completed. Even the members that have been here for a while sometimes forget everything that has been covered previously!

And, yes, we need to take a breath, stay focused, and not jump around wasting a lot of our resources on unsubstantiated ideas.

There are already several sound theories that need more investigation and I am sure Doogie and Annasmom will want to point the investigation in those directions when they are ready.

I hope everyone has a good week-end.

Happy Mother's Day to Annasmom and to all Moms at Websleuths!

I know, I know! Heehee. Sometimes when I go back I find more things I didnt notice/think of before or I am hoping to find something that we may have missed out on. More than anything, I really dont want Annasmom to think we've given up on helping her find Anna.

I'll wait until Doogie and Annasmom get back and they're ready to continue the search for Anna.

:D

mysteriew
05-13-2007, 09:21 PM
It never hurts to review info that was covered before. Each piece of info that is uncovered is like a part of a puzzle. And if not totally ruled out, it could be a piece that just doesn't fit yet. Fresh eyes and more info later could find a place where that piece fits.

But if you want to look up what may have been found earlier, there are tools to help you find it in the forum. At the top of the forum thread is a link for "search forum"- that will give you the thread the info is in. At the top of each thread is "search thread", that will give you the posts it is mentioned in. You can sometimes save yourself some steps by seeing what was found earlier.

rideforfun
05-14-2007, 10:38 AM
My regroup idea is since we now have "contact" with LE can we ask about possible suspects in the burglaries? That takes us back to the gal whose father rented properties and she was at home when the person came to pay his "rent" which actually sounded like a front for robbing them. I believe that gal gave us a possible Anna sighting and we've already confirmed that the robberies were occuring in the area as she claimed. Many times the police have suspensions and suspects which can not be charged because of lack of evidence. Now is the time to talk to the police who investigated these robberies and see if we can generate any names of people who could be followed up on. I believe this is our next strongest area to cover because it is possible that this was an actual Anna sighting!

Dr. Doogie
05-14-2007, 02:30 PM
Also, has anyone actually seen the death certificate for Mary, George B or George W in person?

Yes, the death certificates for all three were in the Box from Hell. Now that the "C/DNA" portion of the investigation is over, I will try and get the BFH from LE.

Dr. Doogie
05-14-2007, 02:38 PM
I cannot access MySpace from my work computer - do we know that Bouslog actually was involved in illegal abortions or is this speculation?

Gina_M
05-14-2007, 02:51 PM
I cannot access MySpace from my work computer - do we know that Bouslog actually was involved in illegal abortions or is this speculation?

I was going to ask about that too. I've read her entire MySpace page, and I can't find anything about illegal abortions. I think that was just speculation in this thread.

Gina_M
05-14-2007, 02:55 PM
I wrote to Marki, who runs the Bouslog page, and here is her reply regarding Margaret Kukoda:

"I actually did read the write up here on myspace about George Brody and looked at the photo of Margaret Kukoda but I don't believe that is her. I sent a copy of the photo to her daugher and granddaughter in law... none of us believe that she resembles her.

Is there anymore information on MK? What were her physical attributes... height, weight, hair color etc.? Does anyone know?"

Dr. Doogie
05-14-2007, 08:05 PM
This may be a red herring, but does this look familiar to you folks? This is from the Unabomber Manifesto.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Image:Disruption_of_the_power_process.png#file

annemc2
05-14-2007, 10:59 PM
Whoa, Doog - chills. That looks very familiar.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 08:42 AM
This may be a red herring, but does this look familiar to you folks? This is from the Unabomber Manifesto.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Image:Disruption_of_the_power_process.png#file

Almost seems to be written by the son of Brody. That is very scary.

It would be very interesting to see the orginal.

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 11:54 AM
It may be a tendency of crazy people to create flow charts to explain the world, but I found this creepily familiar.

GraceBlue
05-15-2007, 12:20 PM
Doogie-

Have you or anyone else gotten in touch with Margaret Kukoda's sister/family? If not, are you planning to?

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 12:31 PM
Doogie-

Have you or anyone else gotten in touch with Margaret Kukoda's sister/family? If not, are you planning to?

One of the lines of investigation that I believe that we need to pursue in the "post-C" era is to finally nail down who Brody and Kukoda were. Contacting her family will be done soon.

Shadow205
05-15-2007, 12:43 PM
One of the lines of investigation that I believe that we need to pursue in the "post-C" era is to finally nail down who Brody and Kukoda were. Contacting her family will be done soon.

DD,
I will see if I can get Brody's myspace moving. I really have not had that many views on it. I'll do a bulletin and get more friends. I'm having a slight technical difficulty with his myspace.As soon as I get that straightened out, I'll devote some time to getting him out there a little more.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 12:45 PM
One of the lines of investigation that I believe that we need to pursue in the "post-C" era is to finally nail down who Brody and Kukoda were. Contacting her family will be done soon.

That's good to know. I remember you saying the window of opportunity for Madelyn is most likely past. I'm assuming she has dementia or a like illness. Hopefully the home she is in will/has provided you or SherlockJR with nearest living relative info. I've been hoping on news from them for weeks now, but I realize the "C" determination took top precedence.

Dr. Doogie, how are you doing? I've been thinking about you...and I'm glad to see you back with open optimism.

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 01:07 PM
Dr. Doogie, how are you doing? I've been thinking about you...and I'm glad to see you back with open optimism.

One thing that I have learned during the search for Anna is that when we have reached a "dead-end" and I think that we have exhausted all possible leads, a new lead will emerge that will take us down new and potentially productive paths. I know that SherlockJr has uncovered one or two interesting leads on adoptees in the last few months that have not gotten the scutiny that they deserved because of the necessary focus on C, but now can be fully explored. Other new leads will undoubtedly be found that will bring us closer to answers about Anna each day.

I hope to create some new threads here soon to help organize where I believe we need to focus our efforts (and lock or merge some other redundant or obsolete threads to keep things from getting too unwieldly). Hopefully, this will help direct our efforts into the most productive areas.

SherlockJr
05-15-2007, 01:20 PM
One of the adoptees I've been in contact with states that in 1973 at the age of 5, her adoptive parents moved to UK and has lived there since. However, she says she does have memories before the age of 5 living with the adoptive parents. She has promised to scan a pic of herself when she was 5 and send it to me. We are still working on finding her birthfamily.

Another adoptee born in 1967 is looking for her birthfamily. She states she has 2 older brothers who would be close to the age of Anna's bros. She also states the name of the birthfather which is an exact name of a friend of Annasmom's back in the 70's. It has been difficult reaching her by phone... busy, busy, busy. Also she currently lives in Washington.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 01:24 PM
This may have been done, but I can't seem to find any reference. Has Brodys' picture ever been posted on any of those sites that allow people to view old pictures and others try to identify them? Pictures of the past, or something like that. If we could plaster the few pictures of Brody on picture and message boards, maybe someone would recognize him. Don't put his name...just a picture and see if people reply with different names.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 01:29 PM
One of the adoptees I've been in contact with states that in 1973 at the age of 5, her adoptive parents moved to UK and has lived there since. However, she says she does have memories before the age of 5 living with the adoptive parents. She has promised to scan a pic of herself when she was 5 and send it to me. We are still working on finding her birthfamily.

Another adoptee born in 1967 is looking for her birthfamily. She states she has 2 older brothers who would be close to the age of Anna's bros. She also states the name of the birthfather which is an exact name of a friend of Annasmom's back in the 70's. It has been difficult reaching her by phone... busy, busy, busy. Also she currently lives in Washington.


Both sound very promising Sherlock. Keep us updated as you can. Very interesting.

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 01:32 PM
Another adoptee born in 1967 is looking for her birthfamily. She states she has 2 older brothers who would be close to the age of Anna's bros. She also states the name of the birthfather which is an exact name of a friend of Annasmom's back in the 70's. It has been difficult reaching her by phone... busy, busy, busy. Also she currently lives in Washington.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Annasmom
05-15-2007, 02:11 PM
One thing that I have learned during the search for Anna is that when we have reached a "dead-end" and I think that we have exhausted all possible leads, a new lead will emerge that will take us down new and potentially productive paths. I know that SherlockJr has uncovered one or two interesting leads on adoptees in the last few months that have not gotten the scutiny that they deserved because of the necessary focus on C, but now can be fully explored. Other new leads will undoubtedly be found that will bring us closer to answers about Anna each day.

I hope to create some new threads here soon to help organize where I believe we need to focus our efforts (and lock or merge some other redundant or obsolete threads to keep things from getting too unwieldly). Hopefully, this will help direct our efforts into the most productive areas.
I had a letter yesterday from Jerry Nance (Anna's caseworker at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children) which was very positive and hopeful. He said "I know that after this much time, your question becomes 'Is she alive?'" and adds that most children taken under the age of five are taken because the abductor needs or wants a child for family reasons. "It is never a factor of time to say that after so many years, etc." he says. So though this past week was difficult for all of us, there are many positive things which also happened, not the least of which is that national media now knows about us and our search. Thank you once again, one and all.

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 02:20 PM
...So though this past week was difficult for all of us, there are many positive things which also happened, not the least of which is that national media now knows about us and our search...

A couple of other positives that have come out of the last couple of weeks:

* We now have a DNA profile for Anna on file (along with Annasmom and her two sons).

* We have now had a "dress rehersal" for when we do find Anna. Annasunc shone brilliantly during the last week in his dealings with the press and I now have great confidence that any future reunion will be able to be as hassle-free as possible with his direction.

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 04:16 PM
I have a quick question here...Was there a Noe St. address for someone (Brody or Waters) at one time,and if so what was the address, I cannot seem to find it in the book or posts, though I am sure it was listed somewhere, anyone know?

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 04:38 PM
I have a quick question here...Was there a Noe St. address for someone (Brody or Waters) at one time,and if so what was the address, I cannot seem to find it in the book or posts, though I am sure it was listed somewhere, anyone know?

I will have to dig for the exact answer, but Brody and Kukoda lived on Noe Street prior to her going into the hospital. Whatcha got?

GraceBlue
05-15-2007, 04:39 PM
I have a quick question here...Was there a Noe St. address for someone (Brody or Waters) at one time,and if so what was the address, I cannot seem to find it in the book or posts, though I am sure it was listed somewhere, anyone know?

I believe for GB and Margaret Kukoda? Im not sure where it is.

ETA: Nevermind, Doogie answered the question.

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 04:48 PM
wow, that was fast, I have a guy with a different name entirely, but if the street address matches, I will send it to you Dr. Doogie, right away. I have another, somewhat dumb question here, but didn't want to reread everything, did anyone look UNDER the house, for Anna? Even if they thought she couldnt get under, did they open it up to check?

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 04:52 PM
I decided that since everyone is looking into Kudoda and Brody and the back east connection, I would try to see if our 'conman' Brody actually is from California. I am still researching, and have been for the last few months, and have a few characters of interest. If there is any relation whatsoever, I will post them for all to inspect, I just want to rule them in or out at this point.

GraceBlue
05-15-2007, 04:59 PM
Interestedinhelping- Good idea about searching under the house! But forgive me for being graphic, I've had a dead animal under my house and it STUNK up the entire house. I can imagine a dead body would make the house smell if Anna somehow got stuck under the house.
As for Brody. Interesting!!!!! Honestly, I think our best shot would to be contact MK's relatives. They could have saved old letters or whatever from MK that may state who she's living with. We can only hope! If so, then it could save us hours, days, months, and years of research!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 05:01 PM
I decided that since everyone is looking into Kudoda and Brody and the back east connection, I would try to see if our 'conman' Brody actually is from California. I am still researching, and have been for the last few months, and have a few characters of interest. If there is any relation whatsoever, I will post them for all to inspect, I just want to rule them in or out at this point.

There was a George Brody (b. 1890) and his wife Margaret (b.1895) that moved to SF between 1920 and 1930. I've posted all the info on here before. But no one seemed to think it could be a match. Anyway, I have never been able to find death records for either of them, nor did they have any children as of 1930. He worked at a hardware store. He was originally from Philly. where he worked at the ship yard. This Brody is a little older than originally thought but I still should have found SS death index on him.

ETA: I have wrote to several Older Hardware stores in the SF area asking if they remember a Brody ever working/owning it. So far they have all said no.

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 05:03 PM
GraceBlue, that makes perfect sense, thus the dumb question is answered...kind of graphic if you want to remove the answer from the forum it would be ok. SInce everyone is looking into MK, I went a different direction on purpose. I think you are right about that, I just decided, that I might find something on this side that may fit, and save research time doing it. Thanks for the obvious answer on the house.

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 05:06 PM
There was a George Brody (b. 1890) and his wife Margaret (b.1895) that moved to SF between 1920 and 1930. I've posted all the info on here before. But no one seemed to think it could be a match. Anyway, I have never been able to find death records for either of them, nor did they have any children as of 1930. He worked at a hardware store. He was originally from Philly. where he worked at the ship yard. This Brody is a little older than originally thought but I still should have found SS death index on him.

The SSDI is a funny thing, they do not have everyone that has actually died in it, even when it is a long time ago. Thats what makes this so hard, if you get a good searchable name like you did, then you can't find them, and they might be dead, and they might be Brody, it is very very frustrating. My brother passed away some time ago, and is not listed, and should be. If I were you I think I would keep checking your lead out, you never know who he could have been, if you think its worth a shot, never give up!

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 05:26 PM
On pins and needles here...Noe st anyone? is the address in the BFH? grrrr...that darned elusive box...perhaps it could be scanned and some of the contents posted, for us to work on. Well, Noe street intrigues me, I may have something, and I may have nothing...just doing that rule in or out thing :banghead:

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 05:35 PM
On pins and needles here...Noe st anyone? is the address in the BFH? grrrr...that darned elusive box...perhaps it could be scanned and some of the contents posted, for us to work on. Well, Noe street intrigues me, I may have something, and I may have nothing...just doing that rule in or out thing :banghead:

1006 Noe Street

Cubby
05-15-2007, 05:36 PM
On pins and needles here...Noe st anyone? is the address in the BFH? grrrr...that darned elusive box...perhaps it could be scanned and some of the contents posted, for us to work on. Well, Noe street intrigues me, I may have something, and I may have nothing...just doing that rule in or out thing :banghead:


Here is the address listed on the george brody myspace

1006 Noe St.

http://www.myspace.com/georgebrody

eta: looks like Doogie and I posted at the same time.

InterestedNHelping
05-15-2007, 06:39 PM
Thank you all...ugh, not same address, still looking to see if connected in any way, thanks again

GraceBlue
05-15-2007, 06:40 PM
GraceBlue, that makes perfect sense, thus the dumb question is answered...kind of graphic if you want to remove the answer from the forum it would be ok. SInce everyone is looking into MK, I went a different direction on purpose. I think you are right about that, I just decided, that I might find something on this side that may fit, and save research time doing it. Thanks for the obvious answer on the house.

No! It isnt a dumb question! There are no dumb questions in this case! No one knows what happened to Anna so we all should be questioning everything!

Good for you for going a different direction! Please dont let me stop you because I said MK's family MAY or may not have info on GB's real identity! I think you're doing good in terms of researching!!

Gina_M
05-15-2007, 06:41 PM
I wrote to Marki, who runs the Bouslog page, and here is her reply regarding Margaret Kukoda:

"I actually did read the write up here on myspace about George Brody and looked at the photo of Margaret Kukoda but I don't believe that is her. I sent a copy of the photo to her daugher and granddaughter in law... none of us believe that she resembles her.

Is there anymore information on MK? What were her physical attributes... height, weight, hair color etc.? Does anyone know?"

Anyone? Anyone? ;) Anyone know MK's height, weight, hair color, etc?

GraceBlue
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
Thank you all...ugh, not same address, still looking to see if connected in any way, thanks again

How close was the address you had in hand to 1006 Noe St? Remember, GW and GB lived in the same hotel but different room # so you never know...

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 06:47 PM
Anyone? Anyone? ;) Anyone know MK's height, weight, hair color, etc?

Those answers are in the BFH which I hope to have back in my possesion soon. I don't think that they exist anywhere else. Sorry.

Gina_M
05-15-2007, 06:54 PM
Thanks DD! :D

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 06:55 PM
So, back to posting pics of Brody in "Pictures of the Past" web sites. Has this been done? (I asked earlier today). If not, would anyone mind if I plastered GB's pictures in every Genealogy/old photo web site I can find. (That will except them?) With a very brief summary & contact info if someone recognizes him.

Gina_M
05-15-2007, 06:56 PM
DD,
I will see if I can get Brody's myspace moving. I really have not had that many views on it. I'll do a bulletin and get more friends. I'm having a slight technical difficulty with his myspace.As soon as I get that straightened out, I'll devote some time to getting him out there a little more.

I have a lot of friends at MySpace...I just posted a bulletin hoping to get people interested in him as a possible connection to Anna's disappearance.

Dr. Doogie
05-15-2007, 07:01 PM
So, back to posting pics of Brody in "Pictures of the Past" web sites. Has this been done? (I asked earlier today). If not, would anyone mind if I plastered GB's pictures in every Genealogy/old photo web site I can find. (That will except them?) With a very brief summary & contact info if someone recognizes him.

I believe that this was attempted, but it would never hurt to try again. Thanks for your efforts!

mysteriew
05-15-2007, 08:32 PM
The SSDI is a funny thing, they do not have everyone that has actually died in it, even when it is a long time ago. Thats what makes this so hard, if you get a good searchable name like you did, then you can't find them, and they might be dead, and they might be Brody, it is very very frustrating. My brother passed away some time ago, and is not listed, and should be. If I were you I think I would keep checking your lead out, you never know who he could have been, if you think its worth a shot, never give up!

I have heard that the only way someone will end up on the SSDI is if the person was somehow connected to Social Security funds before or after they died. IOW, they were receiving SSA or SSI before they died or SSA burial funds were applied for.
If GB did not apply for any SSA or SSI benefits then he most likely wouldn't be on there. And a lot of persons with paranoid disorders won't apply for the benefits because they are seen as being connected to the government.

This link says it would be up to the funeral home or family to report the death to the SSDI.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rwguide/lesson10.htm


Other reasons it might not be included.
http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/ssdi/

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-15-2007, 10:01 PM
I have heard that the only way someone will end up on the SSDI is if the person was somehow connected to Social Security funds before or after they died. IOW, they were receiving SSA or SSI before they died or SSA burial funds were applied for.
If GB did not apply for any SSA or SSI benefits then he most likely wouldn't be on there. And a lot of persons with paranoid disorders won't apply for the benefits because they are seen as being connected to the government....

That's exactly right and my point, Thank you. To be listed in the SS death index, the person would have to had to applied for SS at one point in time. In the 1930 SF, CA census the GB I'm referring to would have been 40. He either died before he was old enough to apply, OR never applied. Also, the state of CA has some of the best death records I've ever researched. I have found every deceased relative of mine who died in CA (as early as the 20's). Even if they where not old enough to collect SS benefits, they still have all been listed in the state death records. That is why I find it odd I can't find that particular state death OR SS death index record for the GB (b. 1890 Ohio) or his wife Margaret Brody (b. 1895 New Jersey)...that moved to SF, CA in the 20's from PA. I looked in all states and can't find an exact match. He either vanished, left the country or died without any forwarding address...LOL :rolleyes:

ETA: Even "Our" George Brody is listed in the state Death records...but not on the SSDI. (with no Birthdate...leading me to believe it COULD be him)

Dr. Doogie
05-16-2007, 11:34 AM
I do not want to say more than this right now, but it has been confirmed by Kukoda family members that Margaret is the sister of Madlyn. We are trying now to see what information the family can provide about Brody.

Again, the dedicated researchers here at WS have come through. You folks are great. Thanks! :clap:

GraceBlue
05-16-2007, 11:41 AM
That's great news! :clap: I hope they can provide information on whoever Brody was!

SherlockJr
05-16-2007, 11:43 AM
Doogie-

Have you or anyone else gotten in touch with Margaret Kukoda's sister/family? If not, are you planning to?

I have spoken with the wife of a relative who did not know very much. She offered that I call back in the evening when her husband gets home from work. If he doesn't know, he may be able to direct me to an even closer relative.

SherlockJr
05-16-2007, 11:45 AM
I do not want to say more than this right now, but it has been confirmed by Kukoda family members that Margaret is the sister of Madlyn. We are trying now to see what information the family can provide about Brody.

Again, the dedicated researchers here at WS have come through. You folks are great. Thanks! :clap:

DD, is there someone else working on this angle? I don't want to make the same phone call if someone else has made a call.

GraceBlue
05-16-2007, 11:46 AM
I have spoken with the wife of a relative who did not know very much. She offered that I call back in the evening when her husband gets home from work. If he doesn't know, he may be able to direct me to an even closer relative.

Thats great! I am sure someone knows something! Did you mention the name "Bobby" or do you plan to?

ETA Thank you for being brave enough to make the phonecall! I am also GLAD her last name is Kukoda, unusual compared to Smith or Jones...then our chance of finding her family would be slim to none!

Dr. Doogie
05-16-2007, 11:49 AM
DD, is there someone else working on this angle? I don't want to make the same phone call if someone else has made a call.

Yes, check your email for the details. Since this other researcher has had successful contact, it would be wise to let her continue before we bombard the family with inquiries. Thanks for asking!

Cubby
05-16-2007, 11:51 AM
I do not want to say more than this right now, but it has been confirmed by Kukoda family members that Margaret is the sister of Madlyn. We are trying now to see what information the family can provide about Brody.

Again, the dedicated researchers here at WS have come through. You folks are great. Thanks! :clap:


Wonderful news! Although, I have to admit with the two Georges being so elusive I wonder if Brody remained in contact with any of his family members during those years. Regardless his background could possibly provide some answers, including contacts of people he "socialized" with previously.Along with info on why contact ended with his family, maybe due to mental illness or some kind of criminal activity.

Changing thoughts. Has anyone ever interviewed or sought information on any of the employees/waitresses from the restaurants the two Georges frequented? I wonder if it's possible they arranged an illegal adoption through a contact in that area. Especially with GW's medical background. Perhaps he was able to obtain paperwork he could forge where the person adopting was not able to determine the paperwork was not legit. I imagine with the media attention at the time it may not be likely, however contact with someone outside the immediate area may never have seen any of the info in the media. Just a thought.
ETA: that is if the restaurants are still even there.

That and I sure wish there was some way to find out exactly where GW traveled during the days immediately after Anna went missing.

GraceBlue
05-16-2007, 11:51 AM
After the disappointment of the negative DNA results with C just last week, this thread is getting exciting again!
-Getting in touch with MK's family
-The 2 adoptees (especially the one in Washington who had 2 older brothers!)

GraceBlue
05-16-2007, 11:53 AM
That and I sure wish there was some way to find out exactly where GW traveled during the days immediately after Anna went missing.

Me too!

Dr. Doogie
05-16-2007, 12:04 PM
..Has anyone ever interviewed or sought information on any of the employees/waitresses from the restaurants the two Georges frequented?...ETA: that is if the restaurants are still even there...

The only restaurants specifically mentioned were "Zim's", a chain of restaurants in SF that closed about a decade ago. We would not be able to pursue that angle.

GraceBlue
05-16-2007, 12:17 PM
The only restaurants specifically mentioned were "Zim's", a chain of restaurants in SF that closed about a decade ago. We would not be able to pursue that angle.

Ahh, now I know why GB went to Zim's....
http://mistersf.com/sanfran/index.html?sanfranbrowns.htm

:laugh:

Cubby
05-16-2007, 12:22 PM
The only restaurants specifically mentioned were "Zim's", a chain of restaurants in SF that closed about a decade ago. We would not be able to pursue that angle.

I found this on Zim's (although it's so dark you need pretty good eyes to read) http://content.cdlib.org/view?docId=kt4580131s&doc.view=entire_text&brand=default

Guide to the Hotel & Restaurant Employees and Bartenders International Union Records, 1974-1985

Scope and Content of Collection

This collection is comprised of leaflets, posters, newsletters and photocopied correspondence related to union activities and events in San Francisco, California. The material follows the donor order and is organized into 36 folders.


Indexing Terms

The following terms have been used to index the description of this collection in the library's online public access catalog.
Zim's (Restaurant)

Container List

Box-folder 1:1-2 ]
1974-76
[ Box-folder 1:9 ]
Zim's strike


I wonder if any names are available in the information on Zim's strike. Link's say they are available online, but the link to inquire goes to the UCSC library........


Still digging around in here....... wonder if a letter sent to any of the names would hurt. Perhaps someone remembers something.

The son, Steve Zimmerman, of the Zim' who owned the restaurant is also listed as a Realtor who specializes in restauraunt sales. Wonder if he has a list of former employee's anywhere.

Cubby
05-16-2007, 01:00 PM
http://www.bloggard.com/blog/member/2

http://tinyurl.com/2ny97z


We took turns taking breaks in Zim's restaurant, the coffee shop in the corner of the lobby, where a repeating crew of regulars assembled every night. There was a lucid and intelligent fellow who held forth every night on politics and current events, and the regular waitresses, Henry, myself, Lonesome Chuck or Mr. Slocum the security guys, Earnest the janitor, and another handful of night-time eccentrics.


Wonder if this was Brody and what else he might have discussed.

natasha-cupcake
05-16-2007, 01:14 PM
http://www.bloggard.com/blog/member/2

http://tinyurl.com/2ny97z


We took turns taking breaks in Zim's restaurant, the coffee shop in the corner of the lobby, where a repeating crew of regulars assembled every night. There was a lucid and intelligent fellow who held forth every night on politics and current events, and the regular waitresses, Henry, myself, Lonesome Chuck or Mr. Slocum the security guys, Earnest the janitor, and another handful of night-time eccentrics.


Wonder if this was Brody and what else he might have discussed.

Interesting! I can't see who wrote this entry (clueless me!). If there is some sort of contact info, then maybe we should forward pics of Brody and GW to this blogger and see if they are recognized. If the time period fits, that is.

GraceBlue
05-16-2007, 01:17 PM
http://www.bloggard.com/blog/member/2

http://tinyurl.com/2ny97z


We took turns taking breaks in Zim's restaurant, the coffee shop in the corner of the lobby, where a repeating crew of regulars assembled every night. There was a lucid and intelligent fellow who held forth every night on politics and current events, and the regular waitresses, Henry, myself, Lonesome Chuck or Mr. Slocum the security guys, Earnest the janitor, and another handful of night-time eccentrics.


Wonder if this was Brody and what else he might have discussed.

Wow Cubby! You are GOOD!

SherlockJr
05-16-2007, 01:27 PM
http://www.bloggard.com/blog/member/2

http://tinyurl.com/2ny97z


We took turns taking breaks in Zim's restaurant, the coffee shop in the corner of the lobby, where a repeating crew of regulars assembled every night. There was a lucid and intelligent fellow who held forth every night on politics and current events, and the regular waitresses, Henry, myself, Lonesome Chuck or Mr. Slocum the security guys, Earnest the janitor, and another handful of night-time eccentrics.


Wonder if this was Brody and what else he might have discussed.

This blogger also writes: "Fine with me. I'd found the courses in Creative Writing both helped and interfered with my writing, so I dropped out, found the Apartment from Hell (http://www.bloggard.com/blog//item/188), and located a job as part-time night auditor (http://www.bloggard.com/blog//item/191) at the Westbury Hotel (http://www.bloggard.com/blog//item/166), downtown just off Union Square."

Gee, this must be where the BFH came from!

Dr. Doogie
05-16-2007, 02:19 PM
The blogger states that this occured at a Zim's in the lobby of the Westbury Hotel near Union Square in 1974. This is the right time and place for it to have been Brody. The blogger's profile lists a phone number - I will call him soon and see if he might be able to identify Brody (not that this will advance our investigation, but it would be interesting to get another take on GB).

InterestedNHelping
05-16-2007, 04:58 PM
Holy cow! I stepped out for half a day and you WSers have found alot! What a great group! All this info in so many directions, excellent excellent work! I am still working (fruitless so far) angles of Brody in the SF area, hopefully it will match up to all of this!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-16-2007, 09:58 PM
I do not want to say more than this right now, but it has been confirmed by Kukoda family members that Margaret is the sister of Madlyn. We are trying now to see what information the family can provide about Brody.

Again, the dedicated researchers here at WS have come through. You folks are great. Thanks! :clap:


Confirmed that she had a sister named Margaret (obvious), or confirmed that she was in fact GB "friend"?

SherlockJr
05-17-2007, 12:00 AM
Confirmed that she had a sister named Margaret (obvious), or confirmed that she was in fact GB "friend"?

At one time there was question as to which Kukoda family Margaret belonged to. It is now confirmed that the person we had planned to approach is indeed Margaret's sister. It is also confirmed that Margaret did have a boyfriend at the time of her death in 1967 and another WS'er is in the process of confirming the photo of Brody as her boyfriend. Once that is confirmed we hopefully will find out his name if it is not Brody.

GraceBlue
05-17-2007, 12:08 AM
At one time there was question as to which Kukoda family Margaret belonged to. It is now confirmed that the person we had planned to approach is indeed Margaret's sister. It is also confirmed that Margaret did have a boyfriend at the time of her death in 1967 and another WS'er is in the process of confirming the photo of Brody as her boyfriend. Once that is confirmed we hopefully will find out his name if it is not Brody.

Sleepless in Florida here...WOW! That is wonderful!!! Thanks for sharing that news!

Dr. Doogie
05-17-2007, 11:54 AM
This also means that Margaret was her real name and not an alias. This eliminates the possibilities of Margaret being either Bouslog or the rafter woman who disappeared.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-17-2007, 12:28 PM
At one time there was question as to which Kukoda family Margaret belonged to. It is now confirmed that the person we had planned to approach is indeed Margaret's sister. It is also confirmed that Margaret did have a boyfriend at the time of her death in 1967 and another WS'er is in the process of confirming the photo of Brody as her boyfriend. Once that is confirmed we hopefully will find out his name if it is not Brody.


This is indeed good news, hopefully the family member can confirm the pic of Brody. Will the pic in the old newspaper article of MK be forwarded as well for confirmation? If we could get a positive on both, that would be fantastic.

mfmangel1
05-17-2007, 05:24 PM
This is indeed good news, hopefully the family member can confirm the pic of Brody. Will the pic in the old newspaper article of MK be forwarded as well for confirmation? If we could get a positive on both, that would be fantastic.


Excellent suggestion to forward pictures of both.

I know we are all hoping that they will be able to give us some background info on these two that will be helpful.

I have always believed that GB and GW were involved in Anna's disappearance. The coincidence of their trip out of town at the time Anna disappeared is just too much to over come; in addition to so many other things.

mysteriew
05-17-2007, 05:52 PM
This also means that Margaret was her real name and not an alias. This eliminates the possibilities of Margaret being either Bouslog or the rafter woman who disappeared.

Did they give any indication as to what happened to their Margaret? Is there any possibility of stolen identity?

GraceBlue
05-17-2007, 05:59 PM
Did they give any indication as to what happened to their Margaret? Is there any possibility of stolen identity?

I think Doogie meant to say because the Kukoda family confirmed Margaret died in 1967 there is no reason for us to believe she had a stolen identity. I hope I am correct Doogie?

Dr. Doogie
05-17-2007, 05:59 PM
Did they give any indication as to what happened to their Margaret? Is there any possibility of stolen identity?

The information that they provided matched exactly with what we know: that Margaret died, was cremated and her "boyfriend" sent the ashes back to the family for burial in PA. No stolen identity is suspected - Margaret is who we believed her to be. Now, Brody is a different story...

GraceBlue
05-17-2007, 06:03 PM
The information that they provided matched exactly with what we know: that Margaret died, was cremated and her "boyfriend" sent the ashes back to the family for burial in PA. No stolen identity is suspected - Margaret is who we believed her to be. Now, Brody is a different story...

Did they give any more information on Brody other than him being her boyfriend?

Dr. Doogie
05-17-2007, 06:14 PM
Did they give any more information on Brody other than him being her boyfriend?

That's all we know at this time. The additional information about the "boyfriend" is what we are trying to get now.

SherlockJr
05-18-2007, 12:13 PM
Another adoptee born in 1967 is looking for her birthfamily. She states she has 2 older brothers who would be close to the age of Anna's bros. She also states the name of the birthfather which is an exact name of a friend of Annasmom's back in the 70's. It has been difficult reaching her by phone... busy, busy, busy. Also she currently lives in Washington.

I was finally able to speak with this adoptee last nite and she is positive that she was adopted at birth. Of coarse to still rule her out as Anna, I have found and spoken with her birthmother living in Florida. A reunion on the phone with adoptee and birthmother just occurred this morning. :)

GraceBlue
05-18-2007, 12:31 PM
Wow Sherlock! That is great!!!! You are so good!

Dr. Doogie
05-18-2007, 12:32 PM
I was finally able to speak with this adoptee last nite and she is positive that she was adopted at birth. Of coarse to still rule her out as Anna, I have found and spoken with her birthmother living in Florida. A reunion on the phone with adoptee and birthmother just occurred this morning. :)

Once again, our SherlockJr has come through. Well done! :clap:

Dr. Doogie
05-18-2007, 12:50 PM
That brings the count of reunited adoptees to four!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-18-2007, 01:44 PM
Just wanted to post a quick update on the Peoples Temple search for Anna. I have finally got into contact with a couple people who are willing to talk about the Children of Jonestown, and the Brady/Talley family I have been looking into. For every one question they answer, it brings up about 10 more questions. It appears that the "who Died" list at:
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/WhoDied/whodied_list.php
has some discrepancies as far as ages, pictures, spouses, children and birthdays. The response has been unbelievable, once I found the right person to get the ball rolling. I'll post more after I decipher the last e-mail full of pics one man sent.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-18-2007, 02:04 PM
Received this from a PT member:

Michaeleen Brady (nee Talley): Michaeleen had been in and out of hospital for mental disorders. Had been divorced. Sister Maureen had had guardianship of Michaeleen's children (Georgiann and Michelle Brady) for several years while she was hospitalized. She came out of hospital after Maureen and Don were in PT. Went to Guyana en of July. Often at odds with being there, didn't like the work etc. Often confronted for behaviors and on the discipline crew.

Michaeleen, Maureen, Georgianne, Michele, and Christina all went to Guyana end of July beginning of August 1977. ROn and Marleen went over in October -November 1977.

Michaeleen and her kids were on SSI and SSA.... perhaps related to her “disability”??/ Would also show that the kids had been processed thru the SS system....

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-18-2007, 02:17 PM
Received this from a PT member:

Michaeleen Brady (nee Talley): Michaeleen had been in and out of hospital for mental disorders. Had been divorced. Sister Maureen had had guardianship of Michaeleen's children (Georgiann and Michelle Brady) for several years while she was hospitalized.

This part scares me

She came out of hospital after Maureen and Don were in PT.

According to the PT records Michaeleen went to Guyana 7-29-77 and Maureen didn't go until 8-26-77.

Went to Guyana en of July. Often at odds with being there, didn't like the work etc. Often confronted for behaviors and on the discipline crew.

Michaeleen, Maureen, Georgianne, Michele, and Christina all went to Guyana end of July beginning of August 1977. ROn and Marleen went over in October -November 1977.

Michaeleen and her kids were on SSI and SSA.... perhaps related to her “disability”??/ Would also show that the kids had been processed thru the SS system....




In other records for Georgiann there is a woman by the name of Debbie Schroeder listed to be receiving SSI checks for Georgiann.





The more I find out, the weirder it all gets. Stay tuned...

InterestedNHelping
05-18-2007, 03:15 PM
iNTERESTED WOMAN, you may or may not know this, but hopefully it can help in some way...I am aware (through family) that when a parent has a disability, social security allows parents to collect or receive SS benefits with the names of their children. I am not sure if it is BECAUSE they have children or FOR the children or how, but I am absolutely certain of it, and they use their children's SS number to prove that is their child and they deserve benefits. This is from someone I know to have a disability, and had received benefits on both of her children, through the 70's and 80's. Hope this helps a bit!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-18-2007, 03:37 PM
iNTERESTED WOMAN, you may or may not know this, but hopefully it can help in some way...I am aware (through family) that when a parent has a disability, social security allows parents to collect or receive SS benefits with the names of their children. I am not sure if it is BECAUSE they have children or FOR the children or how, but I am absolutely certain of it, and they use their children's SS number to prove that is their child and they deserve benefits. This is from someone I know to have a disability, and had received benefits on both of her children, through the 70's and 80's. Hope this helps a bit!


YEs, I understand that, but why would 2 people be receiving SSI benefits for Georgiann? Her mother Michaeleen AND Debbie Schroeder, both had checks in their names under Georgianns name. THAT is what makes this so weird.

mfmangel1
05-18-2007, 04:07 PM
I was finally able to speak with this adoptee last nite and she is positive that she was adopted at birth. Of coarse to still rule her out as Anna, I have found and spoken with her birthmother living in Florida. A reunion on the phone with adoptee and birthmother just occurred this morning. :)

Sherlock, you are doing some amazing things! Keep up the good work! It seems that you have been a Godsend to many people.
:angel:

smile22
05-18-2007, 07:26 PM
i had an ex bf once and he was geting disablity checks one of the reasons was because his mother had died and the other reason was also because he couldn't read and write. could it be she is geting some benefits for a dead family member?

laini
05-18-2007, 11:17 PM
Interested Woman,
Have you read the book by the Lawson woman who was at People's Temple as was most of her family? (sorry I can't remember her first name at the moment). If you haven't, you might be interested in it. I thought it was a great book. And I remember these names you're mentioning from being in the book, also.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-22-2007, 10:14 AM
Interested Woman,
Have you read the book by the Lawson woman who was at People's Temple as was most of her family? (sorry I can't remember her first name at the moment). If you haven't, you might be interested in it. I thought it was a great book. And I remember these names you're mentioning from being in the book, also.

Hey Laini, Are you referring to the book, Seductive Poison by Debra Layton? If so, no, I haven't read it yet. I wrote to Debra Layton 4 times now. 2 e-mail and 2 snail mail (one to her & one to her publisher) and they will not respond to me. I'm a little perturbed, so I haven't spent the money on the book. I may see if it's at the local library.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-22-2007, 10:39 AM
I really don't know what to think at this point. I feel like I should back off. As I said last week I was starting to get some good response from ex-members of the Peoples Temple when I was asking about the Talley family. All in all, every response told me that they where absolutely certain that the Brady kids where in fact biological children of Michaeleen Patricia Brady. I thought I was building a good repoire with them, so I took the plunge and wrote a fairly detailed summary on the history of Anna Waters and the possible George Waters and George Brody abduction theory. I also attached 2 pictures of Anna and told them a few reason why I thought she might have been in Jonestown...(Evergreen Cemetery- GB connection, cyanide poison/suicide- Waters connection, socialism, etc...) After I sent that letter, all correspondence has stopped. I have a bad feeling.

mysteriew
05-22-2007, 03:10 PM
At the time that George said that about the tot- how close in time was that to the People's Temple?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-22-2007, 05:22 PM
At the time that George said that about the tot- how close in time was that to the People's Temple?

I asked that several times, and the only person who would know for sure is Mr. Ford. Annasmom said she thought it was within the first several months of her disappearance, but didn't know for absolute certain. The mass death/suicide in Jonestown was November 18, 1978. There where 408 people, (mostly children) who where never identified. They where buried in a mass grave in Evergreen cemetery in Oakland, CA (Where Brody was cremated) According to Fielding McGehee III (one of the experts on Jonestown I've been in contact with), no data of any kind was taken from these children for future reference. No hair/tissue/blood samples, and no post mortem pictures. They, (as in our government officials) just buried them all together in one huge grave. What a tragedy.

Dr. Doogie
05-22-2007, 05:43 PM
I asked that several times, and the only person who would know for sure is Mr. Ford. Annasmom said she thought it was within the first several months of her disappearance, but didn't know for absolute certain.

I found a previous post by Joe Ford where he indicates that it occured sometime between 1973 and 1975, which would put it prior to the Jonestown suicide. When I get the BFH back, I can confirm this from the postmark on the envelope.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
05-22-2007, 06:10 PM
Thanks for looking that up Doogie, I couldn't find anywhere Mr. Ford had posted that, I must have overlooked it.

Also one PT person wrote the following response to a previous e-mail I had written, where I had very briefly mentioned names of Anna & the 2 Georges...but went in depth on the Talley family. This person never responded to my last letter, so I don't know "Which" families they are referring to. I'd give my left arm to search these records but since I'm stuck in NE I don't see that happening. Just thought I'd throw it out there in case someone had a day to spend in SF, CA.


There are some files on the families you mentioned in the Peoples Temple collection at the California Historical Society [on Mission Street in San Francisco] in the personal records of MS 3800 as well as additional photos among the photography collections. I think you would have to go to CHS to do this research. There may be copies of birth certificates among the papers that would help with identifications.

InterestedNHelping
05-24-2007, 08:23 PM
I need to ask a basic question here, what color were George Brody's eyes? The pictures appear to be brown (but they are black and white photos) so it's hard to tell. I am looking at an idea of ancestry for a few reasons that might give us a link to identity. Any idea for certain? perhaps Annasmom remembers? Thanks

Dr. Doogie
05-24-2007, 08:45 PM
I have contacted the blogger and he has no specific memories of the man in Zim's beyond what he posted. He was a very nice man, but cannot give us any additional information. I know as for myself, I may remember an incident from thirty years ago, but I certainly couldn't give a physical description or remember any specific details about the people involved.

Cubby
05-24-2007, 10:00 PM
I have contacted the blogger and he has no specific memories of the man in Zim's beyond what he posted. He was a very nice man, but cannot give us any additional information. I know as for myself, I may remember an incident from thirty years ago, but I certainly couldn't give a physical description or remember any specific details about the people involved.


Thanks for checking this out......

Annasmom
05-24-2007, 10:01 PM
I need to ask a basic question here, what color were George Brody's eyes? The pictures appear to be brown (but they are black and white photos) so it's hard to tell. I am looking at an idea of ancestry for a few reasons that might give us a link to identity. Any idea for certain? perhaps Annasmom remembers? Thanks Yes. He had pale blue eyes.

Cubby
05-24-2007, 11:00 PM
Yes. He had pale blue eyes.


What is the status with contacting Margaret Kukoda's sister?

Tuffy101
05-25-2007, 11:16 PM
Someone refresh my memory did George go to Oxford and what did he study what years....???? or show me that thread

Annasmom
05-26-2007, 12:46 AM
Someone refresh my memory did George go to Oxford and what did he study what years....???? or show me that thread
No, Princeton..English, then medical school.

NJshrink
06-01-2007, 01:40 PM
Hi guys, I'm not sure if I'm posting in the correct thread but here goes...I was looking at an old post about George Waters, Jr. missing from The Royal Canadian Air Force. It referenced him formerly working in WI as an auditor and his father George Sr. as working as a probation officer also in WI. It seemed odd that one would have joined a foreign military in those years unless one wouldn't be allowed to due to something unsavory in one's history. If George Sr. were in probation might he have helped son leave the US? The picture of St. George H. Waters, Jr. looks like a young George Brody from my untrained eyes. In addition, there is a follw-up letter from an Iris M. Waltham to George, Sr. claiming she was in touch with a Mrs. Logan who claimed that the air ministry received communication from Germany about a body washed ashore. It is hard to believe that during WWII Germany would have taken the time to notify about "deaths" to foreign military. I think this whole death/disappearance was a ruse. It even references the poor woman (Mrs. Logan) who had a baby at the time. Since I am also working on the Anna-Bouslog-Davis missing thread, it is interesting that she also went missing in WWII as a nurse and there is some references on her sight to the Philippines and also Germany. Do I remember correctly a reference to the Philippines with Anna's dad being born there? Presuming any of this is true, it is interesting that this man may have trained as a pilot (back to my earlier theory of abortion and later baby selling rings with pilots and nurses being essential to both. To be continued...

Annasmom
06-01-2007, 07:44 PM
Hi guys, I'm not sure if I'm posting in the correct thread but here goes...I was looking at an old post about George Waters, Jr. missing from The Royal Canadian Air Force. It referenced him formerly working in WI as an auditor and his father George Sr. as working as a probation officer also in WI. It seemed odd that one would have joined a foreign military in those years unless one wouldn't be allowed to due to something unsavory in one's history. If George Sr. were in probation might he have helped son leave the US? The picture of St. George H. Waters, Jr. looks like a young George Brody from my untrained eyes. In addition, there is a follw-up letter from an Iris M. Waltham to George, Sr. claiming she was in touch with a Mrs. Logan who claimed that the air ministry received communication from Germany about a body washed ashore. It is hard to believe that during WWII Germany would have taken the time to notify about "deaths" to foreign military. I think this whole death/disappearance was a ruse. It even references the poor woman (Mrs. Logan) who had a baby at the time. Since I am also working on the Anna-Bouslog-Davis missing thread, it is interesting that she also went missing in WWII as a nurse and there is some references on her sight to the Philippines and also Germany. Do I remember correctly a reference to the Philippines with Anna's dad being born there? Presuming any of this is true, it is interesting that this man may have trained as a pilot (back to my earlier theory of abortion and later baby selling rings with pilots and nurses being essential to both. To be continued...

George Waters was not a "Junior", his father's name was not George, he was never in the armed services, never went to Canada. I really don't understand this post. There is absolutely no possibility that this family is not who they say they are.

NJshrink
06-01-2007, 10:11 PM
I am only hypothesizing ...weren"t George Water's parents missionaries? Were they in the Philippines? Did George Water's parents bring back a child while in the Philippines?

Annasmom
06-02-2007, 01:42 PM
I am only hypothesizing ...weren"t George Water's parents missionaries? Were they in the Philippines? Did George Water's parents bring back a child while in the Philippines?
Because I do not wish to add to this family's tragedy or to intrude upon their privacy any more than this search has already done, I will simply tell you that I am completely aware of the family history on both sides--from birth, in most cases, and that the random facts you present as being possibly pertinent to our case are just that--random--and have no bearing on or connection to the families concerned with the search for Anna. I appreciate your brainstorming on the matter, but this is a different family you are looking at. You have only to Google the name to see that it is anything but an uncommon name.

Dr. Doogie
06-04-2007, 08:14 PM
What is the status with contacting Margaret Kukoda's sister?

I sent a detailed email today and recieved a phone call from one of Margaret's relatives. He is being very helpful and gracious in his efforts to assist us. He personally did not know Margaret, but his mother is Margaret's sister. He is going to ask his mother some new questions based on our conversation today and will be getting back with the answers. We have already received some interesting information, but there are all sorts of new questions being raised. I want to wait until we fill in some of the gaps before I report what we find.

Cubby
06-04-2007, 10:52 PM
I sent a detailed email today and recieved a phone call from one of Margaret's relatives. He is being very helpful and gracious in his efforts to assist us. He personally did not know Margaret, but his mother is Margaret's sister. He is going to ask his mother some new questions based on our conversation today and will be getting back with the answers. We have already received some interesting information, but there are all sorts of new questions being raised. I want to wait until we fill in some of the gaps before I report what we find.


Thank's for the update. Will be awaiting more info.

I wonder if with GB's belief that Anna was Margaret reincarnated, perhaps he somehow convinced GW to allow her adoption or convinced him she would be better off somewhere into Margarets family. Especially with his bizare behavior relating to his belief Annasmom was "in love" with GB. It would be interesting to know if they have any adopted females close to Annas age. A strange theory, but..............

Dr. Doogie
06-05-2007, 11:30 AM
I wonder if with GB's belief that Anna was Margaret reincarnated, perhaps he somehow convinced GW to allow her adoption or convinced him she would be better off somewhere into Margarets family. Especially with his bizare behavior relating to his belief Annasmom was "in love" with GB. It would be interesting to know if they have any adopted females close to Annas age. A strange theory, but..............

Not too strange of a theory - I discussed this exact possibility with the Kukoda relative yesterday (in particular, in reference to a specific Kukoda family member who is the same age as Anna and lived within fifteen miles of where Anna disappeared from at one point in her life). He stated that the woman in question was his niece and he remembers when she was born, so she is not Anna. He did state that there was one female family member who was adopted, but that she was at least ten years older than Anna.

The relative is very open and honest with his information. He is helping us by providing information, but also providing us answers to questions that we would have spent months researching, only to come up with dead ends. By helping us eliminate these "red herrings", we will be able to focus our research on those areas that still hold promise.

SherlockJr
06-13-2007, 01:28 PM
Several months ago I purchased a list of residents at 630 Geary. Eliminating a lot of the names by gender and age, I still have a list of males I'm researching. One name that keeps popping out at me is Walter J Brady. There was a person with the same name who was a commissioner of a small town Galestown, in Dorchester County, MD in 1951. Further research on the Brady name there was a boxer (I know everyone is thinking "not another boxer search!") from New Jersey. He was know as "Irish Bobby Brady" and fought until sometime around 1930. I have not been able to locate a picture of this boxer. Can anyone who has a subscription to a newspaper archive, find a picture to post here?

Dr. Doogie
06-13-2007, 02:34 PM
Several months ago I purchased a list of residents at 630 Geary. Eliminating a lot of the names by gender and age, I still have a list of males I'm researching. One name that keeps popping out at me is Walter J Brady. There was a person with the same name who was a commissioner of a small town Galestown, in Dorchester County, MD in 1951. Further research on the Brady name there was a boxer (I know everyone is thinking "not another boxer search!") from New Jersey. He was know as "Irish Bobby Brady" and fought until sometime around 1930. I have not been able to locate a picture of this boxer. Can anyone who has a subscription to a newspaper archive, find a picture to post here?

The surname of Brady is obviously relatively common, but I do like the tie-in to the reports of Brody being in politics back east. Also, the boxing angle may show promise. Everyone ready to dive back into the boxing pool?

Dr. Doogie
06-13-2007, 02:52 PM
Here is the ring record of "Irish Bobby Brady". It lists that he died 5/1/1967, so this is probably not Brody, unless he faked his death.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=042297

SherlockJr
06-13-2007, 03:08 PM
Here is the ring record of "Irish Bobby Brady". It lists that he died 5/1/1967, so this is probably not Brody, unless he faked his death.

Doing a quick search in death indexes, I found no Brady born 1908 that died in 1967.

Dr. Doogie
06-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Doing a quick search in death indexes, I found no Brady born 1908 that died in 1967.

If the SSDI is your source, he probably wouldn't be listed there since he "died" at age 59 (before he would have accesses Social Security).

I must admit that the timing of his "death" is convienient - coming three months before Brody was to receive the insurance payout on Margaret Kukoda. The notice of his "death" to the boxing association could have simply been a letter from "a relative" in San Francisco saying that "Bobby had died". No official paperwork would have been necessary.

Also, the fact that this Brady seemed to be fighting out of the same general area that so many of these roads take us to (Philly, New Jersey) is very curious.

This is, of course, all speculation that Bobby Brady was George Brody. A picture of Brady would be helpful here. I wonder if someone in the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame might be able to locate one or provide us more information.

Dr. Doogie
06-13-2007, 04:29 PM
This is, of course, all speculation that Bobby Brady was George Brody. A picture of Brady would be helpful here.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

It doesn't look like Brody to me. I'll compare the handwriting here to the writing by Brody on the portrait ("From here through enternity...")

Dr. Doogie
06-13-2007, 04:38 PM
The handwriting looks different to me.

MagicRose99
06-13-2007, 05:43 PM
One's cursive, the other's printed... hard to tell on the handwriting... but, I agree... I don't see much resembelance between the two pics, though the age difference makes it harder to see if there was any.

InterestedNHelping
06-13-2007, 05:53 PM
Since we are jumping into the boxing pool again, I will say something I shared before with this, as it may serve a useful source of info at some point, so archive it for the future if you want to Doogie...In San Francisco, they had a rather large boxing museum, which had to be taken down and put into storage, after the 1989 earthquake. Whether or not they found a new home for it, I do not know, but if Brody was truly a boxer, and he fought in the bay area, they would have a wealth of info on him, even if the pic doesn't match his name. Perhaps someone with the SF historical society might have knowledge of this data.

skywatchn
06-16-2007, 12:44 AM
The information that they provided matched exactly with what we know: that Margaret died, was cremated and her "boyfriend" sent the ashes back to the family for burial in PA. No stolen identity is suspected - Margaret is who we believed her to be. Now, Brody is a different story...


Was there any picture ID of our Margaret Kukoda (a picture of her when she was in the paper for performing abortions illegally) shown to her family for visual verification that both women are one in the same? Also, Doogie, did the family verify that their Margaret was indeed a nurse?