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chicoliving
05-02-2007, 06:20 PM
Here ya go!

jake
05-02-2007, 06:31 PM
Here ya go!

Thanks. I finally saw it.

--Jake

jake
05-02-2007, 06:41 PM
Bellgardin (http://websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=12908) http://websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_1469708", true);
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 39


Quote:
Originally Posted by jake http://websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1469607#post1469607)
I see nothing mysterious or misleading in the posts I made yesterday. Others seem to think I am posting riddles. Not on purpose I'm not:

The "material witness" post? Since several of us saw the house after the police were through, I wonder if our amateur observations make us material witnesses.

LE sees blood on the shower wall: "Jason took a shower after he killed her." I see the blood: "The killer took a shower."

LE sees no bloody footprints: "Meredith was naturally excited and so exaggerated. Means nothing." I see no bloody footprints: "Who was taking care of Cassie and the dog?"

LE sees Michelle's injuries: "Jason was extremely angry about something and went crazy in here." I see the AR of injuries: "Looks like two different weapons and two killers."

"Obstruction" charge? If we "found" things in the house, such as bloody bed linen, bloody socks, etc., are we obligated to give them to LE? I think not, since LE thought those things were not evidence. But I thought I would get another opinion from those of you with more experience than I have.

--Jake





I just bumped this over from thread #17 and answered between paragraphs. I hope this works. --Jake


Material witness-I don't think you would be, but if you would like to read up on this, go to the nc legislature website and read 15A-803-it is good reading. Remember, I've mentioned this before.

I know you would like to think that cops all have a one track mind when it comes to JY, but I highly doubt that's the case. I think they are doing a good job investigating the case and that means looking at JY along with anyone else the evidence points to. No matter who it points to there is going to be someone unhappy about it. Although there are corrupt policeman, there are also corrupt businessmen, lawyers, doctors and even medical software salesmen! LE does not wake every day and wonder what innocent person they can frame and send to jail that day. They are hard-working, honest people who put themselves in danger every day to protect us.

In the beginning I was very critical of LE. Since then I've come to understand why they were so focused on Jason. I still don't like it, and I think their tunnel vision has handicapped them in this investigation. That doesn't mean they're not honest, hard-working people.

I can't imagine what it would be like to find a loved one after they have been murdered. After you have been through a trauma, I imagine your ability to view and describe things in an exactly detailed manner would be hindered. That's why eyewitness testimony can be very unreliable. No one (including you) knows exactly where M was and where she went when she found MY, so it may not be accurate for you to make assumptions upon seeing a crime scene after it's been processed. Just because you saw something in a certain place (or didn't) doesn't mean it was exactly like that right after the murder.

That's true, and I've explained it to posters many times. I don't know what the scene looked like when LE first arrived. Just my opinion, but I think LE didn't see a pristine scene, either. I think the killer(s) did some rearranging.

Doesn't look like two people were there to me and if they were, that just increases the likelihood that there would be foreign DNA. How could there be a huge struggle between 3 people & only MY's DNA was left there? If LE has foreign DNA why aren't they saying so-oh, is it to torture JY? Sounds like you're joining the J. MacDonald school of thought regarding evidence on that one-again.

LE has said nothing about what DNA was found at the scene. Perhaps they found some foreign DNA they can't identify. Perhaps they found print(s) they can't identify. This could help explain why Jason is not behind bars awaiting trial.

It's up to LE to determine what is evidence and what is not. It's not up to you. What may seem important to you may not be and something you deem unimportant may be very important. I still find it very hard to believe you aren't just bringing this up to attack the credibility of LE or to make us believe they just left a bunch of possibly important things just laying around in the hopes that we are all going to say-"The cops are idiots! JY must be innocent!" But then, if JY would have actually spoken with the police to try to help find his wife & son's murderer maybe he would have found out the answer to this question (and some others) already.

I've also said before I am an amateur. After 13 days and 19 professionals, surely no important evidence was left behind in that house. BUT....if ANY evidence was left behind, I believe the Wake County sheriff's department will be terribly embarrassed. Don't you?

--Jake

raisincharlie
05-02-2007, 07:33 PM
Jake,

Has LE officially cleared Jason after this 6 month period ? If not, you might want to think about the reasons why LE has not cleared him after all this time.

jake
05-02-2007, 07:44 PM
Jake,

Has LE officially cleared Jason after this 6 month period ? If not, you might want to think about the reasons why LE has not cleared him after all this time.

I really can't think of any reasons. And I don't recall ever reading a statement from LE in any murder investigation that says: "This person is no longer a suspect. He is cleared." Have you?

--Jake

raisincharlie
05-02-2007, 07:47 PM
I really can't think of any reasons. And I don't recall ever reading a statement from LE in any murder investigation that says: "This person is no longer a suspect. He is cleared." Have you?

--Jake

Yes I do recall hearing of LE officially clearing a POI - not long ago as a matter of fact.

citygirl
05-02-2007, 08:20 PM
My impatience is getting the best of me. I believe the GJ met this week . Now, it is Wednesday night , and there seems to be no activity .

I think the husband committed this terrible crime and can't for the life of me understand why there has been no arrest.

Jake, I wish you could enlighten us with some new info , yet everything is the *same old, same old*.

When will this be resolved ?????

jake
05-02-2007, 08:35 PM
My impatience is getting the best of me. I believe the GJ met this week . Now, it is Wednesday night , and there seems to be no activity .

I think the husband committed this terrible crime and can't for the life of me understand why there has been no arrest.

Jake, I wish you could enlighten us with some new info , yet everything is the *same old, same old*.

When will this be resolved ?????

Soon, citygirl, soon. BUT.... just five minutes ago I heard that LE apparently has a big leak. I say "apparently" because the info possibly was leaked by someone else. I don't feel at liberty to tell you what was leaked, but it was something given to LE today. I think it will make the news soon. I'll see if I can find out more.

--Jake

Stoli
05-02-2007, 08:45 PM
Soon, citygirl, soon. BUT.... just five minutes ago I heard that LE apparently has a big leak. I say "apparently" because the info possibly was leaked by someone else. I don't feel at liberty to tell you what was leaked, but it was something given to LE today. I think it will make the news soon. I'll see if I can find out more.

--Jake

Another mallet thrown in the yard?

Stoli
05-02-2007, 08:53 PM
Does it have anything to do with this,

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1377240/

and the statement that they did not do a sexual assault test on the fully clothed victim?

jake
05-02-2007, 09:21 PM
Does it have anything to do with this,

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1377240/

and the statement that they did not do a sexual assault test on the fully clothed victim?

SNIPPED FROM WRAL++++++++++++++

But a piece of evidence that was missed were tests to determine whether Young was sexually assaulted.

According to the autopsy report, the North Carolina medical examiner never performed any, which means investigators cannot rule out sexual assault as a motive for the crime.

North Carolina medical examiner John Butts said such tests are only performed when there are obvious signs of sexual assault. Investigators would not comment on how that could affect the case

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

athy
05-02-2007, 09:24 PM
SNIPPED FROM WRAL++++++++++++++

But a piece of evidence that was missed were tests to determine whether Young was sexually assaulted.

According to the autopsy report, the North Carolina medical examiner never performed any, which means investigators cannot rule out sexual assault as a motive for the crime.

North Carolina medical examiner John Butts said such tests are only performed when there are obvious signs of sexual assault. Investigators would not comment on how that could affect the case

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

yes, apparently there were no obvious signs of sexual assault being she was fully clothed.

jake
05-02-2007, 09:35 PM
Does it have anything to do with this,

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1377240/

and the statement that they did not do a sexual assault test on the fully clothed victim?

Yep. Someone has been talking to Ms. Lamb. I believe it is someone in LE, but it could possibly be someone else.

I am surprised Ms. Lamb would rely on the AR for her information. There's no way for her to know if LE released a complete AR. But apparently she has a good source who told her no sexual assault test was done.

I've got to wonder why now this interest in a sexual assault test. Before this, I was the only one who showed any interest. Has Ms. Lamb learned something about a possible assault? Or what?

By the way, thank you for the link. For some reason, the story does not show up on WRAL on my computer. Not yet, anyway.

--Jake

Stoli
05-02-2007, 09:41 PM
Yep. Someone has been talking to Ms. Lamb. I believe it is someone in LE, but it could possibly be someone else.

I am surprised Ms. Lamb would rely on the AR for her information. There's no way for her to know if LE released a complete AR. But apparently she has a good source who told her no sexual assault test was done.

I've got to wonder why now this interest in a sexual assault test. Before this, I was the only one who showed any interest. Has Ms. Lamb learned something about a possible assault? Or what?

By the way, thank you for the link. For some reason, the story does not show up on WRAL on my computer. Not yet, anyway.

--Jake

I don't believe there was any sexual assault based on the fact that the victim was fully clothed and I'm guessing there were other physical signs that there was no sexual assault but I will agree that it would eliminate that defense argument if the test had been done. I guess if the only thing you're interested in is defending a man whether he be guilty or not, this might be a cause for celebration for you.

jake
05-02-2007, 09:41 PM
yes, apparently there were no obvious signs of sexual assault being she was fully clothed.

A woman is found beaten to death IN HER BEDROOM (for emphasis) and yet no sexual assault test? Wonder how long it takes to do one? Maybe it's just too expensive? Maybe LE already knew the name of the killer?

Hmmmm. I think someone already regrets that decision.

--Jake

athy
05-02-2007, 09:42 PM
Yep. Someone has been talking to Ms. Lamb. I believe it is someone in LE, but it could possibly be someone else.

I am surprised Ms. Lamb would rely on the AR for her information. There's no way for her to know if LE released a complete AR. But apparently she has a good source who told her no sexual assault test was done.

I've got to wonder why now this interest in a sexual assault test. Before this, I was the only one who showed any interest. Has Ms. Lamb learned something about a possible assault? Or what?

By the way, thank you for the link. For some reason, the story does not show up on WRAL on my computer. Not yet, anyway.

--Jake

i think we're more surprised to hear they didn't do one. but i also understand their reasoning, she was still clothed and i've never heard of a rapist reclothing their victim. so i guess they figured it was safe to assume it wasn't needed.

Samiya
05-02-2007, 09:44 PM
Does it have anything to do with this,

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1377240/

and the statement that they did not do a sexual assault test on the fully clothed victim?

I've just come back from posting a comment on that story. It seems rather strange to me that it took 6 months to comment about the no rape kit.

Here is what I posted.

What the ME said is true. There were no 'obvious' signs that Michelle had been sexually assaulted in any form, so no rape kit used. Michelle was found fully clothed, which led to the surmise that she was not sexually assaulted. Sexual assault in regards to motive in homicides extends further than 'obvious signs' on the victim. It possibly could have began with that motive, if the perp is unknown, but turned to homicide when the attacker found Michelle was not going to be a submissive victim. Sexual assault is about power.

I believe that the attack on Michelle was intentional, that she was the target of her attacker and that the intention her death. It is also painfully obvious that her attacker was very inexperienced, had most certainly never killed before, and had no idea 'what it takes' or how long it takes to strangle a person, let alone 'what it takes' to beat a person to death. The perp's 'rage' I see as rage at himself for not being able to perform a task that to him should have been 'easy'.....to strangle Michelle and get out fast.

People need to have faith in Donnie Harrison and his team. The FBI honestly couldn't do much more than what Donnie is doing now. A homicide like that of Michelle is one of those where it can't be solved overnight. In the world outside crime tv, it just rarely happens and when they are, the evidence is there or the perp caves in and tells all. Michelle's case is a hard case and a sensitive case due to her daughter being found at the scene. In a case such as this, there is no room for mistakes. It has to be right, and it has to be right the FIRST time.

RIP Michelle, may your light shine forever in the eyes of your daughter and those who love you.

Samiya

jake
05-02-2007, 09:45 PM
I don't believe there was any sexual assault based on the fact that the victim was fully clothed and I'm guessing there were other physical signs that there was no sexual assault but I will agree that it would eliminate that defense argument if the test had been done. I guess if the only thing you're interested in is defending a man whether he be guilty or not, this might be a cause for celebration for you.

"guilty or not"? NOT is all I have ever said.

I will celebrate when someone is arrested, tried, and convicted.

--Jake

Samiya
05-02-2007, 09:45 PM
LOL> ok, who got CTV forum closed?

Some people just can't help themselves!

Sami

athy
05-02-2007, 09:49 PM
very good post to them Sami, and CTV is opened again though not much going on over there.

also, i would imagine if she had been sexually assaulted there would have been signs of bruising on her thighs, they seem to show up even more after death from what i understand. no bruising, no signs.

Samiya
05-02-2007, 09:54 PM
i think we're more surprised to hear they didn't do one. but i also understand their reasoning, she was still clothed and i've never heard of a rapist reclothing their victim. so i guess they figured it was safe to assume it wasn't needed.

The blood patterning on her clothes would be a tell tale sign of whether or not those clothes were on during the attack or put on her afterwards.

Sami

jake
05-02-2007, 09:55 PM
i think we're more surprised to hear they didn't do one. but i also understand their reasoning, she was still clothed and i've never heard of a rapist reclothing their victim. so i guess they figured it was safe to assume it wasn't needed.

And the defense argument is going to be: the killer raped her, forced her to put her clothes back on, then beat her to death.

--Jake

jake
05-02-2007, 09:58 PM
Something else Ms. Lamb revealed in her story not generally known: LE has started another round of interviews. This is probably common when a case reaches a brick wall.

--Jake

Samiya
05-02-2007, 09:59 PM
And the defense argument is going to be: the killer raped her, forced her to put her clothes back on, then beat her to death.

--Jake

I sure hope the Defense can find a case to quote so that they have an 'argument' that it can and has happened before.

Rapists usually leave after raping a woman. When they do kill afterwards the victim is always either naked or partially clothed. But there is always a sign of the victim having been raped.

Sami

Samiya
05-02-2007, 10:00 PM
Something else Ms. Lamb revealed in her story not generally known: LE has started another round of interviews. This is probably common when a case reaches a brick wall.

--Jake

It is also common to re-verify statements made previously.

Sami

raisincharlie
05-02-2007, 10:04 PM
It is also common to re-verify statements made previously.

Sami

Witnesses will also go through several rounds with the DA as well. SOP

jake
05-02-2007, 10:05 PM
Something else new in Ms. Lamb's story:

"The sheriff's department has been very careful, as I understand it, in keeping an open mind and not narrowing it and coming up with one suspect," Wake County Assistant District Attorney Becky Holt told WRAL in her first interview.

I believe this is someone new assigned to this case. Can't recall seeing her name before.

I notice also for the first time someone in LE is denying having tunnel vision in this case. Surely LE doesn't read message board criticism! I read this as backing off from the ONE suspect who has been the focus of the investigation.

--Jake

jake
05-02-2007, 10:08 PM
I sure hope the Defense can find a case to quote so that they have an 'argument' that it can and has happened before.

Rapists usually leave after raping a woman. When they do kill afterwards the victim is always either naked or partially clothed. But there is always a sign of the victim having been raped.

Sami

Now, Sami, you've been watching too much TV. The defense doesn't have to prove it has happened before. The lawyer can just make a statement that it happened in this case.

--Jake

athy
05-02-2007, 10:08 PM
Something else new in Ms. Lamb's story:

"The sheriff's department has been very careful, as I understand it, in keeping an open mind and not narrowing it and coming up with one suspect," Wake County Assistant District Attorney Becky Holt told WRAL in her first interview.

I believe this is someone new assigned to this case. Can't recall seeing her name before.

I notice also for the first time someone in LE is denying having tunnel vision in this case. Surely LE doesn't read message board criticism! I read this as backing off from the ONE suspect who has been the focus of the investigation.

--Jake

actually you're quite wrong they DO read these forums we've tried telling you that before.

and Becky Holt has been there since the beginning to the best of my knowledge, i know i've seen her name before with this.

raisincharlie
05-02-2007, 10:12 PM
actually you're quite wrong they DO read these forums we've tried telling you that before.

and Becky Holt has been there since the beginning to the best of my knowledge, i know i've seen her name before with this.

As I recall - Becky Holt was at the crime scene to see it for herself. There is a link posted here. Will see if I can find it for you.

ETA - here are the links - unfortunately WRAL link does not work and I can't find the cache for it but -Ms Holt was on the scene on Monday November 6, 2006.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45082

jake
05-02-2007, 10:14 PM
actually you're quite wrong they DO read these forums we've tried telling you that before.

and Becky Holt has been there since the beginning to the best of my knowledge, i know i've seen her name before with this.

OK, I believe you. I just don't recall it. And it is her first interview.

--Jake

athy
05-02-2007, 10:16 PM
not all LE nor DAs are in a hurry to be interviewed i guess.

Nomimi
05-02-2007, 10:18 PM
Something else new in Ms. Lamb's story:

"The sheriff's department has been very careful, as I understand it, in keeping an open mind and not narrowing it and coming up with one suspect," Wake County Assistant District Attorney Becky Holt told WRAL in her first interview.

I believe this is someone new assigned to this case. Can't recall seeing her name before.

I notice also for the first time someone in LE is denying having tunnel vision in this case. Surely LE doesn't read message board criticism! I read this as backing off from the ONE suspect who has been the focus of the investigation.

--Jake

Becky Holt has been on the case since day one. She was at the crime scene. So, Jake, tell me. Does LE do a rape kit for every homicide? Of course not. Only if there are signs of rape. Obviously there were none. What's your next game plan?

athy
05-02-2007, 10:21 PM
sounds like he's trying to come up with a good defense plan for JY, just in case.

jake
05-02-2007, 10:26 PM
Becky Holt has been on the case since day one. She was at the crime scene. So, Jake, tell me. Does LE do a rape kit for every homicide? Of course not. Only if there are signs of rape. Obviously there were none. What's your next game plan?

Game plan? No game, no plan.

However, evidently Ms. Lamb has some information about a possible sexual assault. If it occurred, wonder how it would affect the case. LE said no comment.... but that may have been no comment about the lack of a sexual assault test.

--Jake

SNIPPED+++++++++++++++++

But a piece of evidence that was missed were tests to determine whether Young was sexually assaulted.

According to the autopsy report, the North Carolina medical examiner never performed any, which means investigators cannot rule out sexual assault as a motive for the crime.

North Carolina medical examiner John Butts said such tests are only performed when there are obvious signs of sexual assault. Investigators would not comment on how that could affect the case.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

athy
05-02-2007, 10:28 PM
or she's just speculating like the rest of us who were not there. doing a "what if"

jake
05-02-2007, 10:29 PM
As I recall - Becky Holt was at the crime scene to see it for herself. There is a link posted here. Will see if I can find it for you.

ETA - here are the links - unfortunately WRAL link does not work and I can't find the cache for it but -Ms Holt was on the scene on Monday November 6, 2006.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45082

Thanks for your trouble. I believe it. Wrong about ms. Holt.

--Jake

Samiya
05-02-2007, 10:32 PM
Now, Sami, you've been watching too much TV. The defense doesn't have to prove it has happened before. The lawyer can just make a statement that it happened in this case.

--Jake

Jake,

I rarely watch TV. I would get more time if people would stop dying.

I never said the defense HAD to prove it happened before, but it IS more believeable IF they had another CASE where it DID happen to compare it to so it doesn't look like they're trying to pull fantasy rabbits out of reality.

Sami

Samiya
05-02-2007, 10:41 PM
Game plan? No game, no plan.

However, evidently Ms. Lamb has some information about a possible sexual assault. If it occurred, wonder how it would affect the case. LE said no comment.... but that may have been no comment about the lack of a sexual assault test.

--Jake

SNIPPED+++++++++++++++++

But a piece of evidence that was missed were tests to determine whether Young was sexually assaulted.

According to the autopsy report, the North Carolina medical examiner never performed any, which means investigators cannot rule out sexual assault as a motive for the crime.

North Carolina medical examiner John Butts said such tests are only performed when there are obvious signs of sexual assault. Investigators would not comment on how that could affect the case.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jake,

That doesn't mean that Amanda Lamb has any 'new information'. Sounds to me like she is assuming that evidence was missed because a rape kit was not used. BTW when an autopsy is done, the decedent is naked. If a sexual assault was evident at that stage, a rape kit would have been used.

Sami

scandi
05-02-2007, 10:52 PM
A woman is found beaten to death IN HER BEDROOM (for emphasis) and yet no sexual assault test? Wonder how long it takes to do one? Maybe it's just too expensive? Maybe LE already knew the name of the killer?

Hmmmm. I think someone already regrets that decision.

--Jake

This is a pretty brazen comment by me - nothing personal, OK?

By the time the autopsy was underway, the forensic team were well into gathering evidence, and whatever criminologist works with the county was working to put 2 + 2 together. Sheriff Harrison was poking around too, and think he had a keen eye for what had happened in that room at the time of the murder.

These guys all do their individual jobs, but they chit chat between themselves, trying to get a handle on what they need to do, and what else do they need to address, looking at everything as a whole.

What IF there was so many factors involved that said the same thing - the husband is the best candidate to have perpetrated this crime, that common sense took over and when the head investigator talked to the ME, and it was deemed unnecessary to do a rape test on the victim.

Heck, she was killed with a viscious rage, not by a serial killer, not by someone wanting to rob the house and she caught him {her purse was on the kitchen counter}, not by the mob as a payback for something {wrong way to kill}, etc.

The fact has to be addressed that if she presented such a threat to her husband in some way we are not privledged to know about yet, why would he seek sexual release combined with the anger in his heart and mind, which was enough to eliminate or as they said on TV, annyalate her from existance? That is what we would expect a psycopath to do, a predator. That doesn't add up, and I am just a lowly but studied poster to say that.


So Jake, now that I have had the guts to speak like this, is this something that was found after LE left and before the cleaning crew came in, have anything to do with this new alert that LE might have had it wrong, and she might have been sexually abused at the time of her murder? If it was and it told a sexual tale, it would have to be a condum.

Frankly, since he lived there and we have to assume they did have a sexual relationship {after all she was pregnant}, that condum, if that's what was found, could have been even 1 day older than the crime scene. I think the ME and LE would discount it as evidence for that reason alone, esp for having been turned in 6 mos after the actual murder! And there would be no justification either for the defense to use it as a tool for their benefit.

I don't know what else could have been found that qualifies as alluding to 'sexual' activity, but I think most usually married people have the enjoyment of not having to use these things.

Scandi

athy
05-02-2007, 11:04 PM
considering Michelle was already pregnant i doubt JY was using condoms with her. although, if she was afraid of getting some kind of infection she might have wanted to. like if she thought he might be cheating on her.

scandi
05-02-2007, 11:05 PM
LOL> ok, who got CTV forum closed?

Some people just can't help themselves!

Sami

Oh My Goodness! Last night there was a possible insider who was trying her best to be as naughty as they come. I posted how awful this is, for someone with an agenda to come in and cause consternation, to be allowed.

Evidently CW was out having a brew, as she did nothing. That poster should have been anixed promptly, and led right out the door! She was totally sarcastic!

BTW, I think your post was very well stated Sami. Scandi

athy
05-02-2007, 11:07 PM
scandi that person i believe was banned.......what a shame. not

Samiya
05-02-2007, 11:09 PM
was that the one heaping it on Michelle?

athy
05-02-2007, 11:10 PM
i believe maple was banned

Samiya
05-02-2007, 11:13 PM
Jake,

You said the N&O were in Brevard poking around. Any idea why?

Sami

jake
05-02-2007, 11:27 PM
SNIPPED++++++++++++


So Jake, now that I have had the guts to speak like this, is this something that was found after LE left and before the cleaning crew came in, have anything to do with this new alert that LE might have had it wrong, and she might have been sexually abused at the time of her murder? If it was and it told a sexual tale, it would have to be a condum.

Frankly, since he lived there and we have to assume they did have a sexual relationship {after all she was pregnant}, that condum, if that's what was found, could have been even 1 day older than the crime scene. I think the ME and LE would discount it as evidence for that reason alone, esp for having been turned in 6 mos after the actual murder! And there would be no justification either for the defense to use it as a tool for their benefit.

I don't know what else could have been found that qualifies as alluding to 'sexual' activity, but I think most usually married people have the enjoyment of not having to use these things.

Scandi

Scandi, you are just much too nice to be on this board. You should be protected and preserved as a national treasure!

I believe a pack of unused condoms were removed via one of the search warrants, but I can't figure why.

I believe Ms. Lamb's source has told her something about sexual activity and that's why she speculated for three paragraphs. I expect she will tell us soon what she has learned. Today's story was just a tease.

Even if no sexual assault, don't you think LE would like to know if Michelle had engaged in sex that night, and with whom? What if she did, and it wasn't Jason. Surely the ME checked!

--Jake

jake
05-02-2007, 11:28 PM
Jake,

You said the N&O were in Brevard poking around. Any idea why?

Sami

The reporter told someone he was preparing a six-month story on the case and was trolling for comments.

--Jake

scandi
05-02-2007, 11:38 PM
actually you're quite wrong they DO read these forums we've tried telling you that before.

and Becky Holt has been there since the beginning to the best of my knowledge, i know i've seen her name before with this.

Hi Athy, I remember seeing a photo of Becky at the Young home when the crime scene was still under wraps.


I've been thinking more about Jakes question yesterday, that if someone found something at the crime scene, and didn't turn it over immediately to LE, and well, I can't quite seeing that actually happen.

JY's mother was there, Mr Goins and his wife and Jason's sister who lives out of Brevard, from what I know. Anyone else there? These people all live in the area of the mountains, but that does not bely their intelligence as individuals. They are all sharp as tacks mentally.

If they would turn in a tooth, there is no way they would keep something else discovered from LE. They would weigh the benefit of doing that over the negative, and I think they would each say, well, yes, it is better to be honest than be brought up on charges of obstructing an investigation. You think so Mom, Of Course, she would say. It would be a non-plus deal, and if they have even half the intelligence I give each of them credit for, they would have turned it right over, as they did the tooth.

If they kept this piece of evidence for 6 months before a family friend told them they better scat with it right on down to the Brevard PD, I would feel used, as a concerned citizen who really cares about justice in this case.

Now the possibility there is detrimental info out there about Jason. now that is occupying a nice part of my brain, trying to figure out exactly what it could be! There, could be the rub of a telling motive left to be discovered.

I'm sure LE knows all about this too. I think Harrison is a very sharp cookie.

Does anyone know the name of the head investigator in Michelle's case? His credentials, experience? Always interesting to know as much as you can when one puts as much thought into a case as we do. right? YaYa

Scandi

raisincharlie
05-02-2007, 11:41 PM
Scandi, you are just much too nice to be on this board. You should be protected and preserved as a national treasure!

I believe a pack of unused condoms were removed via one of the search warrants, but I can't figure why.

I believe Ms. Lamb's source has told her something about sexual activity and that's why she speculated for three paragraphs. I expect she will tell us soon what she has learned. Today's story was just a tease.

Even if no sexual assault, don't you think LE would like to know if Michelle had engaged in sex that night, and with whom? What if she did, and it wasn't Jason. Surely the ME checked!

--Jake

So is this an admission that you have indeed seen the inventory list from the 11/3 search warrant or have you misread again?

Barney Fife
05-02-2007, 11:47 PM
A woman is found beaten to death IN HER BEDROOM (for emphasis) and yet no sexual assault test? Wonder how long it takes to do one? Maybe it's just too expensive? Maybe LE already knew the name of the killer?

Hammy. I think someone already regrets that decision.

--Jake

If Tharington -Smith wants to bring the possibility of a rape forward, Jason and the court can simply authorize an exhumation and examination so they can prove rape and clear his name.....will it happen ? No , because MF-Y was NOT raped.

jilly
05-02-2007, 11:53 PM
As I recall - Becky Holt was at the crime scene to see it for herself. There is a link posted here. Will see if I can find it for you.

ETA - here are the links - unfortunately WRAL link does not work and I can't find the cache for it but -Ms Holt was on the scene on Monday November 6, 2006.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45082

RC - Here is the WRALs Archive Link for the Young case

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story_gallery/1065978/

7th from bottom - Sheriff.... at the bottom of article Becky is mentioned if this is what you were thinking about.

raisincharlie
05-02-2007, 11:55 PM
RC - Here is the WRALs Archive Link for the Young case

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story_gallery/1065978/

7th from bottom - Sheriff.... at the bottom of article Becky is mentioned if this is what you were thinking about.

That is the one Jilly - thank you !:clap: I like links.

Anuniaq
05-03-2007, 12:02 AM
Quote:

That's true. I don't know what the place looked like when LE went in. But LE cleaned nothing else so I doubt they cleaned footprints.

--Jake

__________________________________________________ ___________

But the killer may have cleaned the prints, crime scene techs have other ways to see latent prints that have been cleaned up. By the time the scene was released it is likely you wouldn't even be able to see that the prints had been there. But LE will have photos (if they found cleaned footprints).

IMO

jilly
05-03-2007, 12:02 AM
That is the one Jilly - thank you !:clap: I like links.

It's not very often, I get a chance to help out!:D

Sami I was wondering where you were! Thanks for your valued opinion. Appreciated!:)

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 12:03 AM
<snip>
So Jake, now that I have had the guts to speak like this, is this something that was found after LE left and before the cleaning crew came in, have anything to do with this new alert that LE might have had it wrong, and she might have been sexually abused at the time of her murder? If it was and it told a sexual tale, it would have to be a condum.

<snip>
Scandi

Scandi,

It seems to me that condoms were not an essential item nor a used item if one thinks about it. Michelle was pregnant back in May before she was involved in the "accident". Then she got pregnant very quickly afterwards which indicates to me that condoms weren't a common use item. Once she got pregnant of course there is no reason for them.

The only reason I can see is if Michelle was indeed aware that JY played around and absolutely insisted...could be a very interesting concept.

scandi
05-03-2007, 12:12 AM
Thanks Barney,

As a woman here, who has lived a wonderful life full of experiences, I need to address an issue that is bothering me.

The meat of it is that I don't think Michelle had a bountiful expectation of sex to see her through her days at the time she was killed. Why?

Any woman who is at the stage of pregnancy Michelle was, is going to lose her driving lust to have hot sex. Her body is not particularly looking like it would be perceived as a plum to have for the evening. She sees the change.

Yes, out of love for her husband she would give of herself willingly to him in a happy and normal situation. As the pregnancy developed in time, her concern would be for the safety of the baby, for the last thing on earth she would want now is for him to be hurt in some way.

My conclusion is that an extramarital affair is most likely the last thing a pregnant woman at Michelle's stage would go for. Her little guy moving around inside her was a fete de complet for her, and like any good woman would tell us, you gotta love the baby. Hot passion for a Godsend that happened across her path one day, well I think it was about as far away from her thoughts and desires as anything in life can be.

She was #1, the wife of Jason.
She was #2 the mother of a young 2 1/2 yr old girlie
She held a position at work that reflected her abilities and accomplishment.

She had a very full life, also filled to the brim with lots and lots of wonderful friends.

All of these things should put to rest the idea that Michelle had some hot lover on the side. I'd bet my inheritance on the fact that she didn't.

Scandi

jake
05-03-2007, 12:19 AM
So is this an admission that you have indeed seen the inventory list from the 11/3 search warrant or have you misread again?

Nope. Know someone though.

--Jake

scandi
05-03-2007, 12:27 AM
Scandi,

It seems to me that condoms were not an essential item nor a used item if one thinks about it. Michelle was pregnant back in May before she was involved in the "accident". Then she got pregnant very quickly afterwards which indicates to me that condoms weren't a common use item. Once she got pregnant of course there is no reason for them.

The only reason I can see is if Michelle was indeed aware that JY played around and absolutely insisted...could be a very interesting concept.

Most definately Charlie, She was pregnant almost that whole year, if you round it out.

The only reason for them would be to save your body from any sexually transmitted disease. If she was not yet aware he was dinking about and around, was talking to the gals at work about the woes of his sexual life, behind her back, and had a reved up relationship with her very best friend that started in August when Michelle was still throwing up every morning - then yes, I would say save the money, we are just fine.

I really don't think Michelle know about his screwing around on her until a short time before she was murdered. Weeks maybe. Their sex life just dwindled, and she maybe wondered about that but chalked it up to her being pregnant. I think Michelle might have wondered about other things regarding the state of her husbands mind, prompting discussion which turned into the threat that he could not live with, were it to become known.

We don't know this yet, as it is just a surmisal. Bet your bottom dollar Charlie when it comes out we won't be a bit surprised. I think LE already has their finger on everything concerned with this murder, and for the life of me can not understand why this has to be drawn out now like it is. :banghead:

Scandi

scandi
05-03-2007, 12:35 AM
Quote:

That's true. I don't know what the place looked like when LE went in. But LE cleaned nothing else so I doubt they cleaned footprints.

--Jake

__________________________________________________ ___________

But the killer may have cleaned the prints, crime scene techs have other ways to see latent prints that have been cleaned up. By the time the scene was released it is likely you wouldn't even be able to see that the prints had been there. But LE will have photos (if they found cleaned footprints).

IMO

Hi Anuniak, Dried blood in a plush carpet, as Jake said was in that br, if you step on it, it will descimate that dried blood into powder really fast, which will fall down to the base of the carpet and not be seen. Dried blood has a perpensity to fracture upon contact, and I think this is why they say they saw no footprints 'everywhere', as Meredith did. Just my thought.

Scandi

harleysnana
05-03-2007, 12:38 AM
Something else new in Ms. Lamb's story:

[--Jakesnip

Young talked with investigators the day his wife's body was found and later gave fingerprints under a court order, but Harrison said he has generally been uncooperative with law-enforcement authorities.

"Why hasn't he talked to us? I can't give you that answer, because he won't talk to us," Harrison said. "If he talked to us, would it help this case? Absolutely."

Wonder why he doesn't want to help the case?
:waitasec:

Anuniaq
05-03-2007, 12:49 AM
Hi Anuniak, Dried blood in a plush carpet, as Jake said was in that br, if you step on it, it will descimate that dried blood into powder really fast, which will fall down to the base of the carpet and not be seen. Dried blood has a perpensity to fracture upon contact, and I think this is why they say they saw no footprints 'everywhere', as Meredith did. Just my thought.

Scandi

I was also thinking of places that might not have carpet where Jake has said he saw no footprints where maybe there "should" have been. If they were cleaned up by the killer, the techs could see them with chemicals, but they would not remain visible to the naked eye.

Your description for what would happen to dried blood on a carpet sounds interesting and could very well be why more footprints were not obvious 2 weeks after the murder.

jilly
05-03-2007, 01:10 AM
Well, I gotta say, I'm getting tired of reading between the lines. Jake I would really appreciate it if you could be more specific.

I don't know what to make of this latest article by Amanda. Kinda sounds like it would be a defense leak if anything.

On the otherhand, I guess it could be 'misinformation' put out by LE which is not unheard of. We have read that Amanda and LE are very tight and that she has been given some info 'off the record'.

SewingDeb
05-03-2007, 01:26 AM
i think we're more surprised to hear they didn't do one. but i also understand their reasoning, she was still clothed and i've never heard of a rapist reclothing their victim. so i guess they figured it was safe to assume it wasn't needed.

I've heard of several cases where a rapist/murderer reclothed their victim....all in North Carolina! They really should have done the rape kit regardless of whether she was dressed or not.

strach304
05-03-2007, 01:27 AM
It's this or that. A rapist will use condoms so maybe someone in the house found condoms and then later found out that Jason did not use them. Fingerprints could have been on the unused package. An attempted rape could've taken place or a staged one, if you get my drift.

I cannot see LE overlooking a used one found somewhere in the bedroom simply because they'd want to make sure it was Jason's dna. A rapist would not leave a used one there. As for the matter with her clothes she wouldn't need to be nude or redressed if someone tried but didn't succeed. Whatever object she was beat with could have been something she picked up and hit them with.

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 08:03 AM
considering Michelle was already pregnant i doubt JY was using condoms with her. although, if she was afraid of getting some kind of infection she might have wanted to. like if she thought he might be cheating on her.

I agree with you. Who's to say Michelle even knew that they were there? Maybe JY was using them with someone else?

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 08:21 AM
Something else new in Ms. Lamb's story:

"The sheriff's department has been very careful, as I understand it, in keeping an open mind and not narrowing it and coming up with one suspect," Wake County Assistant District Attorney Becky Holt told WRAL in her first interview.

I believe this is someone new assigned to this case. Can't recall seeing her name before.

I notice also for the first time someone in LE is denying having tunnel vision in this case. Surely LE doesn't read message board criticism! I read this as backing off from the ONE suspect who has been the focus of the investigation.

--Jake

It's NOT the first time someone in LE is denying having tunnel vision. If you go back and read the articles almost every one of them has a reference from the police about not rushing to judgement or refusing to name a suspect, or something of that nature. I think you are reading what you want to read, not necessarily what is really there. The police have also repeatedly said if JY would talk to them it would help them solve the case, but he hasn't done that. It still gives the impression to me that he's more concerned about covering his rear than finding out who murdered his wife and son, regardless of what his attorney says he should do. I know you're never going to agree with me about this, but that's okay because I'm never going to agree with you about it either. Even D Horowitz talked to the police and he's a defense attorney-why??? He had nothing to hide even though he knew he would be considered a suspect.

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 08:33 AM
A woman is found beaten to death IN HER BEDROOM (for emphasis) and yet no sexual assault test? Wonder how long it takes to do one? Maybe it's just too expensive? Maybe LE already knew the name of the killer?

Hmmmm. I think someone already regrets that decision.

--Jake

Surprisingly, I agree with you that the rape kit should have been done. Even though I think it makes NO DIFFERENCE (for emphasis) what room her body was found in. This may come as a shock, but rapists don't just rape women in the bedroom, they do it all over the house and sometimes outside! I understand that there was no initial visible evidence of a sexual assault, but I think it's always a good idea to collect the kit just in case. It ties up a loose end, and those are never good to have in a murder investigation. That's JMO. But on the other hand, during the autopsy if they would have found any indication of trauma to that area of her body, they would have done the kit, so I still feel that there was no sexual assault.

jake
05-03-2007, 08:39 AM
Surprisingly, I agree with you that the rape kit should have been done. Even though I think it makes NO DIFFERENCE (for emphasis) what room her body was found in. This may come as a shock, but rapists don't just rape women in the bedroom, they do it all over the house and sometimes outside! I understand that there was no initial visible evidence of a sexual assault, but I think it's always a good idea to collect the kit just in case. It ties up a loose end, and those are never good to have in a murder investigation. That's JMO. But on the other hand, during the autopsy if they would have found any indication of trauma to that area of her body, they would have done the kit, so I still feel that there was no sexual assault.

Surprised? Not me.

Why just trauma? Wouldn't LE be interested in knowing if Michelle had sex that night, and with whom?

--Jake

jake
05-03-2007, 08:50 AM
If Tharington -Smith wants to bring the possibility of a rape forward, Jason and the court can simply authorize an exhumation and examination so they can prove rape and clear his name.....will it happen ? No , because MF-Y was NOT raped.

Hi, Barney, welcome back to the real world. So nice to hear the voice of knowledge: MF-Y was NOT raped. Thank you.

And if MF-Y were raped, this would clear JY-Y's name. And all JY-Y has to do is authorize an exhumation. Thank you again.

--Jake

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 08:59 AM
Surprised? Not me.

Why just trauma? Wouldn't LE be interested in knowing if Michelle had sex that night, and with whom?

--Jake

I really hope that you are not intimating that MY was having an affair while she was pregnant. That's despicable.

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 09:01 AM
Hi, Barney, welcome back to the real world. So nice to hear the voice of knowledge: MF-Y was NOT raped. Thank you.

And if MF-Y were raped, this would clear JY-Y's name. And all JY-Y has to do is authorize an exhumation. Thank you again.

--Jake

And if she wasn't raped?????

jake
05-03-2007, 09:05 AM
I really hope that you are not intimating that MY was having an affair while she was pregnant. That's despicable.

I get it. LE would have insulted Michelle by checking.

--Jake

jake
05-03-2007, 09:06 AM
And if she wasn't raped?????

Ask Barney.

--Jake

jake
05-03-2007, 09:15 AM
"I believe this is someone new assigned to this case. Can't recall seeing her name before."

Thank you board members! This speculation by me ("I believe" and "can't recall") generated a total of 11 posts.

Thank you Athy, Raisincharlie, Nomimi, Scandi, Jilly. I hope you will continue to make sure my speculations are accurate.

This is 12, my opinion only.

--Jake

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 09:21 AM
I get it. LE would have insulted Michelle by checking.

--Jake

Wrong again. Stop deliberately twisting my words into what you want to hear. Posts such as yours are why I don't post on other boards-especially when you were posting there.

The insult is that you are insinuating there was an affair by anyone other than JY and you know it-end of story.

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 09:23 AM
Ask Barney.

--Jake

I don't need to ask anyone, I'm perfectly capable of my own thoughts.

jake
05-03-2007, 09:34 AM
Wrong again. Stop deliberately twisting my words into what you want to hear. Posts such as yours are why I don't post on other boards-especially when you were posting there.

The insult is that you are insinuating there was an affair by anyone other than JY and you know it-end of story.

I get it. You don't like my posts. You really should put me on ignore.

You insinuate LE would have insulted Michelle and her memory if they had checked. I disagree. I think they should have checked.

--Jake

athy
05-03-2007, 09:43 AM
but wouldn't the embalming methods contaminate any evidence like that and make it harder. it might show if she was but not be an accurate dna results to say who.

Bellgardin
05-03-2007, 09:50 AM
I get it. You don't like my posts. You really should put me on ignore.

You insinuate LE would have insulted Michelle and her memory if they had checked. I disagree. I think they should have checked.

--Jake

I really hope that you are not intimating that MY was having an affair while she was pregnant. That's despicable.

Did you read anything I wrote???? Show me where in my post above where I said anything about LE let alone insinuated they would have insulted MY if they would have done the rape kit!!!! I AGREED WITH YOU (emphasis added so maybe you'll see it) that the kit should have been done.

One last time, I said what was insulting was you insinuating that MY had sex with someone besides JY. Hope you have it now.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 09:59 AM
"I believe this is someone new assigned to this case. Can't recall seeing her name before."

Thank you board members! This speculation by me ("I believe" and "can't recall") generated a total of 11 posts.

Thank you Athy, Raisincharlie, Nomimi, Scandi, Jilly. I hope you will continue to make sure my speculations are accurate.

This is 12, my opinion only.

--Jake

No problem, the truth when it is a known, trumps speculation in all cases. This case will be no different. That is after all, the purpose behind the forum, a search for the truth.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 10:14 AM
It's this or that. A rapist will use condoms so maybe someone in the house found condoms and then later found out that Jason did not use them. Fingerprints could have been on the unused package. An attempted rape could've taken place or a staged one, if you get my drift.

I cannot see LE overlooking a used one found somewhere in the bedroom simply because they'd want to make sure it was Jason's dna. A rapist would not leave a used one there. As for the matter with her clothes she wouldn't need to be nude or redressed if someone tried but didn't succeed. Whatever object she was beat with could have been something she picked up and hit them with.

Just maybe, this is another of those speculations produced by Jake to purposely distract and deflect and point the blame elsewhere. You will note he never comes and out and says it - just implies it. Until it becomes known through appropriate channels, the insinuation is just that.

I agree LE would not have overlooked such a finding, especially if they actually found a collection of unused ones, nor would the ME overlook doing a rape kit if any evidence existed that warranted the completion of one. Perhaps it should have been done regardless. However, we do not know all that is in the ME's notes from either the autopsy or the examination done at the scene. We also do not know what the ME or other LE personel will be testifying to. I suggest when it goes to trial the explanation for the actions taken and not not taken will be defined.

less0305
05-03-2007, 10:34 AM
Scandi,

It seems to me that condoms were not an essential item nor a used item if one thinks about it. Michelle was pregnant back in May before she was involved in the "accident". Then she got pregnant very quickly afterwards which indicates to me that condoms weren't a common use item. Once she got pregnant of course there is no reason for them.

The only reason I can see is if Michelle was indeed aware that JY played around and absolutely insisted...could be a very interesting concept.

Condoms could have been "found" or "discovered" by police in a JY specific place, i.e., golf bag, gym bag, his vehicle glove compartment. Police discovering condoms hidden away in something personal of JY's would pique the interest of law enforcement...."Why would the married man of a pregnant wife have condoms secreted away?? Hmmm, maybe he's having an affair - we might need to look into that." I think Jake is once again trying to throw out a red herring and hope someone bites. I don't bite.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Most definately Charlie, She was pregnant almost that whole year, if you round it out.

<snip>

We don't know this yet, as it is just a surmisal. Bet your bottom dollar Charlie when it comes out we won't be a bit surprised. I think LE already has their finger on everything concerned with this murder, and for the life of me can not understand why this has to be drawn out now like it is. :banghead:

Scandi

Scandi,

I wonder why 3.5 months after the autopsy came out WRAL is just now getting around to investigating and reporting on the issue of a rape kit. We know Ms. Lamb went and looked at the photos, we know she read the AR. We know from the AR that all clothing was retained as evidence, what we do not know is what tests were performed on that clothing or what trace evidence may have be recovered from the clothing. There is a reason IMO.

athy
05-03-2007, 10:43 AM
i found it strange also rc that she reports it now.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 11:02 AM
i found it strange also rc that she reports it now.

Reminds me of the tooth story, a preliminary strike. The comments by the ME indicate that there was no evidence found to indicate a rape or sexual assault had occured prior to the murder. Get it done and over with.

athy
05-03-2007, 11:06 AM
sorta like taking away the power it might have at trial if LE is already given the chance to explain why one wasn't done.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 11:27 AM
sorta like taking away the power it might have at trial if LE is already given the chance to explain why one wasn't done.

Actually, I am not convinced either story, tooth or rape kit absence really has any power either way. The tooth could be checked against X-rays and other methods to verify whose tooth it is - if it is Michelle's how does that raise reasonable doubt ? The only claim is the evidence might have been overlooked - but if that piece of tooth proves nothing either way, is it really evidence ? I don't think so.

The same with the rape kit - if there were no signs or indications of sexual assault, is it necessary? They have her clothing which included under garments, trace evidence may well verify if there was or was not any kind of sexual activity involved before the murder. The only usefulness to the defense is the fact it was not done, but that is a small walkway if the clothing and the physical exam yields evidence supporting the reasoning for not doing it.

Since this information is not known to us and maybe is also not known to reporters, I will wait for the trial to weigh the significance it may or may not have with respect to my views.

Taximom
05-03-2007, 11:48 AM
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_9_8.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS)
After receiving two email alerts about Michelle Young from WRAL, I got excited and came here to see what was happening. Sorry to see it's the same old, same old.

Six lousy months. How much longer will it take for justice to be served?

jilly
05-03-2007, 11:50 AM
Reminds me of the tooth story, a preliminary strike.

Yes it does, doesn't it. Put out by the jy team.

So what's going on with Amanda Lamb, I wonder. Off hand, do you remember who put out the tooth story? ETA Which newspaper?

Nomimi
05-03-2007, 11:55 AM
Scandi, you are just much too nice to be on this board. You should be protected and preserved as a national treasure!

I believe a pack of unused condoms were removed via one of the search warrants, but I can't figure why.

I believe Ms. Lamb's source has told her something about sexual activity and that's why she speculated for three paragraphs. I expect she will tell us soon what she has learned. Today's story was just a tease.

Even if no sexual assault, don't you think LE would like to know if Michelle had engaged in sex that night, and with whom? What if she did, and it wasn't Jason. Surely the ME checked!

--Jake

More than likely the unused pack of condoms belonged to Jason, since he was the one having the affair. Maybe Michelle found them and that's what started the fight that night? Hmmmmmm.

Nomimi
05-03-2007, 12:03 PM
I've heard of several cases where a rapist/murderer reclothed their victim....all in North Carolina! They really should have done the rape kit regardless of whether she was dressed or not.

Hi Deb,
Would you be so kind to give us a link? I would be interested in reading that. Maybe there is some nut rapist on the loose. Thank you.

Nomimi
05-03-2007, 12:13 PM
Condoms could have been "found" or "discovered" by police in a JY specific place, i.e., golf bag, gym bag, his vehicle glove compartment. Police discovering condoms hidden away in something personal of JY's would pique the interest of law enforcement...."Why would the married man of a pregnant wife have condoms secreted away?? Hmmm, maybe he's having an affair - we might need to look into that." I think Jake is once again trying to throw out a red herring and hope someone bites. I don't bite.

Amen to that! I believe Jake would actually "leak" some "information" to the media himself in order to stir the pot, and take the focus off of Jason.
:liar:

scandi
05-03-2007, 12:21 PM
More than likely the unused pack of condoms belonged to Jason, since he was the one having the affair. Maybe Michelle found them and that's what started the fight that night? Hmmmmmm.

Hi Nomimi, This is in answer to the post you responded to, but I wanted to say Hi and I agree with you and everyone elses posts in response to Jake.

The reason I think a package found of unused condums was taken by police through the SW is to check fingerprints on who brought that box or package into the Young home. We don't know what that showed, but since there are no other persons that have come to light other than Jason in regards to being the perp, I would assume they are his fingerprints on the package.

Sami will know this, but during autopsy, even if there was not a rape exam given, if the ME had noticed what looked like evidence of sex inside of her, he would on his own volition done tests. I don't remember reading anything unusual mentioned about her body down there in the AR - everything was normal. If she had a condum inside of her there would be tell tale signs of the lubricant on the condum and more than the average amt of fluid present which probably would have ended up on her panties.

Evidently there was nothing present to indicate recent sex within the previous 12 or so hours.

I'm thinking one of the family members found something like a condum wrapper and wasn't turned in to LE. Then it could be Amanda was notified of this find which resulted in the article. I think this was what prompted Jakes question about possible charges against the finder of whatever it was or the possibility this person could be held as a material witness.

Amanda is tight with LE. So if LE is concerned about this, I am sure they will be in contact with those who went into the home right after it was released. I do think withholding possible evidence from a known crime scene is chargable. It will depend on what the prosecutor thinks and how doing that would affect the case.

Scandi

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 12:43 PM
Yes it does, doesn't it. Put out by the jy team.

So what's going on with Amanda Lamb, I wonder. Off hand, do you remember who put out the tooth story? ETA Which newspaper?

Jilly,

As I recall, each media outlet had something on it. I cannot tell you who put it out first however. I do know WRAL went and interviewed Sam Pennica with CCBI (or SBI) about it.

Scandi - for you : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj6cbM-h8xg

less0305
05-03-2007, 12:56 PM
More than likely the unused pack of condoms belonged to Jason, since he was the one having the affair. Maybe Michelle found them and that's what started the fight that night? Hmmmmmm.

That reminds me of a story of a friend of mine. His wife found condoms in his glove compartment.....he told her he sometimes got himself off while on long road trips and that he used the condoms to keep from having a "mess" on his hands while traveling. She totally bought it.....sounds plausible, right? But my friend really was having relations outside the marriage on his traveling jaunts. :rolleyes:

strach304
05-03-2007, 01:39 PM
I read a post on the ctv board saying that LE could've done a rape kit on Michelle at the scene. If AL was just going by the autopsy then she wouldn't know that right?

I do know they clipped her nails and bagged her hands before removal. I know they got samples of Jason's pubic hairs which I think is standard anyway. An oral swab and checking for hair on and around a rape victim are also procedures done on suspected rape victims. From what I read an actual rape kit would involve a lot more than taking oral swabs. Therefore, it is my opinion that the ME did do this. The NTO also stated they wanted that evidence from Jason for comparison from the crime scene and autopsy.

ETA: If there's ever a trial if no foreign dna was found or other signs of sexual assault then I don't think it will amount to a hill of beans.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 02:00 PM
I read a post on the ctv board saying that LE could've done a rape kit on Michelle at the scene. If AL was just going by the autopsy then she wouldn't know that right?

I do know they clipped her nails and bagged her hands before removal. I know they got samples of Jason's pubic hairs which I think is standard anyway. An oral swab and checking for hair on and around a rape victim are also procedures done on suspected rape victims. From what I read an actual rape kit would involve a lot more than taking oral swabs. Therefore, it is my opinion that the ME did do this. The NTO also stated they wanted that evidence from Jason for comparison from the crime scene and autopsy.

ETA: If there's ever a trial if no foreign dna was found or other signs of sexual assault then I don't think it will amount to a hill of beans.

Strach,

I think if we read John Butt's quote from this article posted by Stoli :http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1377240/

North Carolina medical examiner John Butts said such tests are only performed when there is obvious evidence at the scene or on the victim's body of sexual assault or when law enforcement officers request it.

"Collection of such (rape) kits is not routine for female homicide victims, unless they fall into these categories," Butts said.


I think we have a bit more understanding about the scene. It seems obvious to me that no one from LE all the way through the ME saw anything that made them even suspect a sexual assault had occurred or was even attempted. There was no other reason for what happened other than complete and utter oblitteration of Michelle - that was the objective plain and simple. JMO.

harleysnana
05-03-2007, 03:04 PM
I'm thinking one of the family members found something like a condum wrapper and wasn't turned in to LE. Then it could be Amanda was notified of this find which resulted in the article. I think this was what prompted Jakes question about possible charges against the finder of whatever it was or the possibility this person could be held as a material witness.

Scandi
:blowkiss:
Scandi... you and I think alike!
Almost every post of yours I read.. I think.. hey.. that's what I was thinking!

Anyway... about the family member finding a condom..
I would bet that is what Jake was talking about!

He said last night he knows something.

My though...
A family member found a condom wrapper and had it tested...and
Jason’s prints are not on it.

It's possible that they don't know who’s finger prints are on it
and they are ASSUMING it was someone that Michelle had come
to the house....
BUT...
What if... it was from someone Jason had come to the house?

Maybe Michelle’s prints are also on the wrapper...

If Michelle found this wrapper and thought...
what the heck... we don't need condoms... I'm pregnant!

And after finding a condom....she decided to have a talk with Jason about it?

That could explain a fight that night?

And.. it could also explain...why if someone from Jason’s family found a condom they
would feel comfortable about having it tested for dna because they knew
that it would have Michelle’s prints and an "unidentified" persons....

I would bet that is what Jake is getting at by his comments.

scandi
05-03-2007, 04:13 PM
Hi Harleysnana, Back at 'cha! ;} That was funny, and we really do think so much alike going back to the SP days of yore. LOL

There would be nothing so suspicious about an unused package of condums, plural as he said. I would think they would have had to find something with an indication of use, which they might not feel free to say here.

The killer could have planted it to raise suspicion about a sexual motivation. That would be a stretch tho. Your idea sounds very plausible, but if it really was in the bedroom or even the bathroom area, I can not see LE not taking it, can you? The tooth was inbetween the edge of the carpeting and the wall, so it is more understandable why it wasn't found. Plus it was very small, or a piece of a tooth. A wrapper, now that would be hard to miss! Almost laughable.

If it has been given to LE now, an odd fingerprint could be a reason for delay, trying to match it up to a person. But from the way I have interpreted Jakes posts, this old discovery has just recently been revealed, so it would be a new part of the investigation having just started.

If the family didn't think Jason had anything to do with her murder then you would think they would have turned it over right away to assist in finding the real killer. That is why I think this is all about nothing. It would be interesting to have Harrison's take on this! Scandi

strach304
05-03-2007, 05:17 PM
If we really want to stretch the imagination lets say for instance someone was trying to make it look like a SA. Who in their right mind not wanting to get caught is gonna leave behind fingerprints and dna in a used condom? Then sometime on down the road a family member of Jason's finds something that they don't realize is important but does later realize it is important. I wanna know how they found it and what was their sudden enlightenment as to how it might be important evidence that LE overlooked?

My other theory is that it was staged to look like Michelle was having an affair. One thing would be the obvious no sign of forced entry so that makes sense to me. Some of you will recall that SP was trying to make it look like Laci was having an affair and the baby wasn't his and she left on her own. They did prove in court that the baby was the child of both Scott and Laci's.

I really am becoming concerned that there will never be an arrest in this case. :(

Barney Fife
05-03-2007, 05:22 PM
Jake,

One your former students, Tennisbuff, is really on your case over at CTV. Bottom line is she does not believe a thing you say.

jake
05-03-2007, 06:16 PM
Jake,

One your former students, Tennisbuff, is really on your case over at CTV. Bottom line is she does not believe a thing you say.

Thanks, Barney. I can tell you're trying to make me feel good.

What can I say? She can write. She can read. She's a professional. She thinks for herself. I did my job.

--Jake

jake
05-03-2007, 06:20 PM
Jake,

One your former students, Tennisbuff, is really on your case over at CTV. Bottom line is she does not believe a thing you say.

How many times you going to post this, Barney?

How about carrying this over to the other board?

I'm proud of Tennisbuff. She thinks.

--Jake

chicoliving
05-03-2007, 06:24 PM
Glad I popped in. Continue on your discussion about the Michelle Young case and discontinue your discussion of the posters. This applies to everyone. An occasional post about another site is fine as long as another site or posters does not become the discussion.

jake
05-03-2007, 07:02 PM
If we really want to stretch the imagination lets say for instance someone was trying to make it look like a SA. Who in their right mind not wanting to get caught is gonna leave behind fingerprints and dna in a used condom? Then sometime on down the road a family member of Jason's finds something that they don't realize is important but does later realize it is important. I wanna know how they found it and what was their sudden enlightenment as to how it might be important evidence that LE overlooked?

My other theory is that it was staged to look like Michelle was having an affair. One thing would be the obvious no sign of forced entry so that makes sense to me. Some of you will recall that SP was trying to make it look like Laci was having an affair and the baby wasn't his and she left on her own. They did prove in court that the baby was the child of both Scott and Laci's.

I really am becoming concerned that there will never be an arrest in this case. :(

Come on, Strach. An arrest is coming....sometime.

I believe you should give up on the idea of a used condom. I doubt it happened.

I don't know how I would stage a murder scene to make it look like Michelle was having an affair. No-forced-entry could be just an unlocked door. Happens all the time.

--Jake

spring
05-03-2007, 08:03 PM
was the supposed box of condoms opened?

strach304
05-03-2007, 08:16 PM
Come on, Strach. An arrest is coming....sometime.

I believe you should give up on the idea of a used condom. I doubt it happened.

I don't know how I would stage a murder scene to make it look like Michelle was having an affair. No-forced-entry could be just an unlocked door. Happens all the time.

--Jake


I'm still not even convinced it's a condom but you have inplied there is something so why don't you tell me instead of me guessing. If I were more informed I could make a better decision, right?

We don't have the info LE does so we don't know if the possibility of a staged rape or robbery attempt was made. Which by the way does happen quite often with spousal murder if that is what we are dealing with so LE needs to look at that possibility too.

Stoli
05-03-2007, 08:23 PM
I'm still not even convinced it's a condom but you have inplied there is something so why don't you tell me instead of me guessing. If I were more informed I could make a better decision, right?

We don't have the info LE does so we don't know if the possibility of a staged rape or robbery attempt was made. Which by the way does happen quite often with spousal murder if that is what we are dealing with so LE needs to look at that possibility too.

I would like to believe that Jake is being honest with us but he doesn't seem to want to be straight so you never know what to believe and what not to believe. I think I'll wait to see whatever evidence there is in the courtroom.

j2mirish
05-03-2007, 09:01 PM
If we really want to stretch the imagination lets say for instance someone was trying to make it look like a SA. Who in their right mind not wanting to get caught is gonna leave behind fingerprints and dna in a used condom? Then sometime on down the road a family member of Jason's finds something that they don't realize is important but does later realize it is important. I wanna know how they found it and what was their sudden enlightenment as to how it might be important evidence that LE overlooked?

My other theory is that it was staged to look like Michelle was having an affair. One thing would be the obvious no sign of forced entry so that makes sense to me. Some of you will recall that SP was trying to make it look like Laci was having an affair and the baby wasn't his and she left on her own. They did prove in court that the baby was the child of both Scott and Laci's.

I really am becoming concerned that there will never be an arrest in this case. :(

I am right there with you- just hoping LE is crossing their T's and dotting their I's :cool:

athy
05-03-2007, 09:03 PM
http://wral.com/news/local/story/1381989/

new article 15 minutes ago

j2mirish
05-03-2007, 09:04 PM
Come on, Strach. An arrest is coming....sometime.

I believe you should give up on the idea of a used condom. I doubt it happened.

I don't know how I would stage a murder scene to make it look like Michelle was having an affair. No-forced-entry could be just an unlocked door. Happens all the time.

--Jake

I dont recall strach saying YOU staged the scene...????

the unlocked door that happens all the time is a very good point, as far as the unforced entry- I hadnt thought of that :doh:
eta-- the unforced entry doesnt apply in my mind to this case, as I think the murderer had a key, but I will keep in it mind on other cases--

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 09:16 PM
http://wral.com/news/local/story/1381989/

new article 15 minutes ago

Seems to me that more than likely, this is the hold up on this case. It appears that the discovery of this failure by the ME to collect what was checked/requested was brought to LE's attention after the fact or during the assembly of the evidence and there is a possibility that the clothing is now being tested.

It also seems the ME's office is now in CYA mode...

Thanks Athy - would you post your link in the media thread in the sticky at the top?

spring
05-03-2007, 09:19 PM
Seems to me that more than likely, this is the hold up on this case. It appears that the discovery of this failure by the ME to collect what was checked/requested was brought to LE's attention after the fact or during the assembly of the evidence and there is a possibility that the clothing is now being tested.

It also seems the ME's office is now in CYA mode...

Thanks Athy - would you post your link in the media thread in the sticky at the top?

charlie, would testing her clothes show it? maybe there was nothing on her clothes and so they didn't need to do the kit?

j2mirish
05-03-2007, 09:26 PM
charlie, would testing her clothes show it? maybe there was nothing on her clothes and so they didn't need to do the kit?
another question I have, is this something that can be "retraced" if the body is exhumed ( sp ) ?
sami???

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 09:27 PM
charlie, would testing her clothes show it? maybe there was nothing on her clothes and so they didn't need to do the kit?

As I recall Michelle did have on under garments, I suspect there is indeed a possibility that the undergarments would be useful but I am not convinced that this method would suffice to remove reasonable doubt. They will need some other very convincing evidence to overcome it - such as the perp's blood, fingerprints in Michelle's blood or on the murder weapon(s) or something of that nature.

In the previous article the ME - Butts said they do SA kits when a victim falls into one of three categories - there is evidence of SA at the scene, on the body, or when LE requests it. LE requested it but it was not done - one has to wonder if there was evidence at the scene and on the body that would overcome the doubt concerning an SA.

Seems to me the ME royally messed up...unless he took a swab and checked for sperm under a microscope as a quick check and found none. Something is going on here IMO.

athy
05-03-2007, 09:31 PM
it seems ME messed up but i look at it this way. all her injuries were to the head except for the defensive wounds. she was fully clothed. and at least according to the AR there weren't any bruising on her thighs to show someone was trying to spread her legs (sorry about the details) so if i were a juror, i don't think i would buy the defense side (if they used it) that she could have been assaulted. i've seen women that were sexually assaulted there usually were bruising and signs. while i believe they should have done the kit i can't say that i buy it as a doubt.

scandi
05-03-2007, 09:32 PM
Hi J2mirish, Great to see you!

Just a memory from early insider posts in the case, and remember the Youngs kept a hidden key out by a door. That tells me they probably most usually locked their doors when they left.

Well, a little Blockbuster for the late afternoon it looks like! I think this was brought to the attention of LE very recently, like in the last day or 2, and I won't even say how I think it happened but do have my thoughts!


Wonder if Jason is going out to celebrate the news at Pizza Hut? LOL :slap:

spring
05-03-2007, 09:36 PM
it seems ME messed up but i look at it this way. all her injuries were to the head except for the defensive wounds. she was fully clothed. and at least according to the AR there weren't any bruising on her thighs to show someone was trying to spread her legs (sorry about the details) so if i were a juror, i don't think i would buy the defense side (if they used it) that she could have been assaulted. i've seen women that were sexually assaulted there usually were bruising and signs. while i believe they should have done the kit i can't say that i buy it as a doubt.


and i am not an expert in this field, but genitals enlarge during intercourse. i am not sure if it happens the same way in a forced situation, but depending on the timing of that and the timing of death, if there had been intercourse sometime near the time of death, would she still be enlarged? sorry to be so graphic.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 09:40 PM
it seems ME messed up but i look at it this way. all her injuries were to the head except for the defensive wounds. she was fully clothed. and at least according to the AR there weren't any bruising on her thighs to show someone was trying to spread her legs (sorry about the details) so if i were a juror, i don't think i would buy the defense side (if they used it) that she could have been assaulted. i've seen women that were sexually assaulted there usually were bruising and signs. while i believe they should have done the kit i can't say that i buy it as a doubt.

I agree, if there was no signs of an SA and the clothing yields nothing then chances are reasonable there was nothing. However a defense lawyer can and most likely will try to breach the topic (delicately) of consentual sex with someone other than her husband prior to her death. This person then lost it during an argument and the murder was the result. You know a defense lawyer will try it - they would be remiss if they did not but it will have to be done very delicately to avoid alienating a jury. JMO


ETA - Sami please show up and give us some thoughts !

scandi
05-03-2007, 09:41 PM
That is unsettling Charlie, even though I think as they said, there are other ways to discover if she was sexually abused. Unless a swab was taken as you say, they might have to exhume her body for tests to take away all reasonable doubt for a jury. They do it all the time on Forensic Files! :p I know I'm so bad!

What disturbs me more is how this info was possibly relayed to those in charge. Having gone 6 mos since the death and 2 1/2 months since the AR was signed off, this is bizarre to come out now. LE might not realize this, but it could be about as bad as the mistake of communication between the investigators and the ME's office! Scandi

Stoli
05-03-2007, 09:42 PM
it seems ME messed up but i look at it this way. all her injuries were to the head except for the defensive wounds. she was fully clothed. and at least according to the AR there weren't any bruising on her thighs to show someone was trying to spread her legs (sorry about the details) so if i were a juror, i don't think i would buy the defense side (if they used it) that she could have been assaulted. i've seen women that were sexually assaulted there usually were bruising and signs. while i believe they should have done the kit i can't say that i buy it as a doubt.

It seems to me that it is just a lot more doo doo, I mean to do about notihin'.

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 09:46 PM
That is unsettling Charlie, even though I think as they said, there are other ways to discover if she was sexually abused. Unless a swab was taken as you say, they might have to exhume her body for tests to take away all reasonable doubt for a jury. They do it all the time on Forensic Files! :p I know I'm so bad!

What disturbs me more is how this info was possibly relayed to those in charge. Having gone 6 mos since the death and 2 1/2 months since the AR was signed off, this is bizarre to come out now. LE might not realize this, but it could be about as bad as the mistake of communication between the investigators and the ME's office! Scandi

Scandi,

The video from WRAL clearly showed the request sheet - LE very clearly marked it for the request for an SA. I don't think there is any way to say LE miscommunicated their intent. I think this one is on the ME and I think this has caused a major hold up in this case.

Perhaps this release of information is indeed the prelude to an exhumation order. I feel so terrible for Linda Fisher if it comes to this but it may become essential.

j2mirish
05-03-2007, 09:50 PM
Hi J2mirish, Great to see you!

Just a memory from early insider posts in the case, and remember the Youngs kept a hidden key out by a door. That tells me they probably most usually locked their doors when they left.

Well, a little Blockbuster for the late afternoon it looks like! I think this was brought to the attention of LE very recently, like in the last day or 2, and I won't even say how I think it happened but do have my thoughts!


Wonder if Jason is going out to celebrate the news at Pizza Hut? LOL :slap:

thnx Scandi--
lol :silenced:

scandi
05-03-2007, 09:58 PM
thnx Scandi--
lol :silenced:

Denada Dah'ling! Sometimes laughter in the face of great consternation does some good, right?

I did just have one horrific thought though. We learned yesterday I believe that a package of unused condums was listed on the original SW. I am now wondering if whatever was alluded to have been removed from the crime scene and not given to LE is indeed relevent to the SW!~

Sami's probably still sleeping, but I hope she checks in. Scandi

j2mirish
05-03-2007, 10:03 PM
Denada Dah'ling! Sometimes laughter in the face of great consternation does some good, right?

I did just have one horrific thought though. We learned yesterday I believe that a package of unused condums was listed on the original SW. I am now wondering if whatever was alluded to have been removed from the crime scene and not given to LE is indeed relevent to the SW!~

Sami's probably still sleeping, but I hope she checks in. Scandi

yes, I will be glad when she awakens and sees the NEWS that has been posted since she went to bed !! LOL- I would like to know about the sex/exhumed question- I dont believe there was an assault, I would just like to know if they could prove it, so the defense can be shut down, as it will be a big tadooo fro them at this point-

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 10:06 PM
Denada Dah'ling! Sometimes laughter in the face of great consternation does some good, right?

I did just have one horrific thought though. We learned yesterday I believe that a package of unused condums was listed on the original SW. I am now wondering if whatever was alluded to have been removed from the crime scene and not given to LE is indeed relevent to the SW!~

Sami's probably still sleeping, but I hope she checks in. Scandi


Scandi,

Sorry to say I consider that information suspect given that the source that has claimed it hasn't been exactly reliable nor able to provide a link or anything to back up the claim.

Exhumations in NC From Chapter 130A State Code:

130A‑390. Exhumations.
(a) In any case of death described in G.S. 130A‑383 or 130A‑384 where the body is buried without investigation by a medical examiner as to the cause and manner of death or where sufficient cause develops for further investigation after a body is buried as determined by a county medical examiner or the Chief Medical Examiner, the Chief Medical Examiner shall authorize an investigation and send a report of the investigation with recommendations to the appropriate district attorney. The district attorney may forward the report to the superior court judge and petition for disinterment. The judge may order that the body be exhumed and that an autopsy be performed by the Chief Medical Examiner. A report of the autopsy and other pathological studies shall be delivered to the judge. The cost of the exhumation, autopsy, transportation and disposition of the body shall be paid by the State. However, if the deceased is a resident of the county in which death or fatal injury occurred, that county shall pay the cost.
(b) Any person may petition a judge of the superior court for an order of exhumation. Upon showing of sufficient cause, the judge may order the body exhumed. The cost incurred shall be assigned to the petitioner.
(c) Without applying for a judicial exhumation order, the next‑of‑kin of a deceased person may have the remains exhumed, examined by the Chief Medical Examiner and redisposed. The cost shall be paid by the next‑of‑kin. (1983, c. 891, s. 2; 1991, c. 463, s. 3.)

Samiya
05-03-2007, 10:13 PM
Oh man am I peeved!

How the (insert cussing) could this have happened?

John Butts, I seriously disagree with you. If a rape kit is requested originally, it should have been done regardless of whatever 'changes' come after the initial request.

Sounds more to me like there was a breakdown in communication in the ME's office which needs to be not only addressed, but someone needs to be raked over the coals, fed to the sharks, donated to cannibals or whatever!

grrrrr!


Sami

j2mirish
05-03-2007, 10:17 PM
Oh man am I peeved!

How the (insert cussing) could this have happened?

John Butts, I seriously disagree with you. If a rape kit is requested originally, it should have been done regardless of whatever 'changes' come after the initial request.

Sounds more to me like there was a breakdown in communication in the ME's office which needs to be not only addressed, but someone needs to be raked over the coals, fed to the sharks, donated to cannibals or whatever!

grrrrr!


Sami

Morning Sami.....:angel:

raisincharlie
05-03-2007, 10:20 PM
Oh man am I peeved!

How the (insert cussing) could this have happened?

John Butts, I seriously disagree with you. If a rape kit is requested originally, it should have been done regardless of whatever 'changes' come after the initial request.

Sounds more to me like there was a breakdown in communication in the ME's office which needs to be not only addressed, but someone needs to be raked over the coals, fed to the sharks, donated to cannibals or whatever!

grrrrr!


Sami

Nice to see you Sami - are you having a good day ? :p

athy
05-03-2007, 10:20 PM
morning sami,

if they exhumed her body and did one now would it tell them anything?

Samiya
05-03-2007, 10:43 PM
morning sami,

if they exhumed her body and did one now would it tell them anything?

It may, but it may not. I will never forget seeing photos of Elizabeth (MP case) and the condition of her body on exhumation. It was absolutely amazing and a credit to her embalmer.

BTW If it was Jason who killed her, proof of an SA would not really be that 'important' apart from showing how bad her ordeal was. The most 'important' part would be to prove that he murdered Michelle. If it was someone else however, totally different story.

I pray that Linda won't have to go through the ordeal of an exhumation :( that would break my heart.

I have to go out for awhile. My work is never done, I need a slave!

Sami

jilly
05-03-2007, 10:44 PM
Oh my goodness....just reading at CTV, the doctor who apparently performed the autopsy was a 3rd year intern and not even a Certified Medical Examiner.
I don't think I can read anymore tonight.

strach304
05-03-2007, 10:51 PM
That is unsettling Charlie, even though I think as they said, there are other ways to discover if she was sexually abused. Unless a swab was taken as you say, they might have to exhume her body for tests to take away all reasonable doubt for a jury. They do it all the time on Forensic Files! :p I know I'm so bad!

What disturbs me more is how this info was possibly relayed to those in charge. Having gone 6 mos since the death and 2 1/2 months since the AR was signed off, this is bizarre to come out now. LE might not realize this, but it could be about as bad as the mistake of communication between the investigators and the ME's office! Scandi

I am getting the feeling that LE wanted this out there and had AL do the follow up (same day too) to show what happened. If they have to exhume the body for further testing they need to show good cause for one thing and try to rectify an extreme over sight. The ME was imo trying to cover his butt and his departments. What worries me about that is the competence of the ME will be questioned by the defense as well.

Once again we're seeing similarities with the Peterson case. Geragos made it a point to show at trial that LE took swabs from Scott's hands for gunpowder residue but never had those tested. Again same with the gun. It really turned out to be a non-issue that meant absolutely nothing because they don't know how she was killed and the expert they did have examine the gun said it was jammed and wouldn't fire anyway.

Samiya
05-03-2007, 10:51 PM
Jilly,

Greene was only in attendance. Clark did the autopsy.

Now I'm off!

Sami

jilly
05-03-2007, 11:08 PM
Jilly,

Greene was only in attendance. Clark did the autopsy.

Now I'm off!

Sami

Whew! Thanks Sami, I'll take your word for it because I want to sleep tonite!

Nomimi
05-03-2007, 11:24 PM
Oh my goodness....just reading at CTV, the doctor who apparently performed the autopsy was a 3rd year intern and not even a Certified Medical Examiner.
I don't think I can read anymore tonight.

Oh, you read my mind Jilly. How the hell can you put an internist on a murder case? WTF is goin on in Raleigh? Jason Young had already hired an attorney by that time. Was he bribed? Did JY have sex w/ her after midnight????

philamena
05-04-2007, 12:37 AM
Oh my goodness....just reading at CTV, the doctor who apparently performed the autopsy was a 3rd year intern and not even a Certified Medical Examiner.
I don't think I can read anymore tonight.

:doh: oh no! That is unreal. Shouldn't a qualified ME been present even if an intern did the autopsy? It should have been obvious that Michelle had suffered greatly before dying. I am shocked at this latest news.

Samiya
05-04-2007, 12:41 AM
It doesn't get any plainer than this.

" Well, he just will not talk to us,” Harrison explained. “We'd try to go through his attorney, and also contact him, and he has failed to come in or failed to meet us anytime that we've asked."

Statement from Donnie Harrison.

http://news14.com/content/top_stories/582047/still-no-arrest-in-michelle-young-murder/Default.aspx

Sounds like Jason has laryngitis.....

Sami

raisincharlie
05-04-2007, 12:48 AM
It doesn't get any plainer than this.

" Well, he just will not talk to us,” Harrison explained. “We'd try to go through his attorney, and also contact him, and he has failed to come in or failed to meet us anytime that we've asked."

Statement from Donnie Harrison.

http://news14.com/content/top_stories/582047/still-no-arrest-in-michelle-young-murder/Default.aspx

Sounds like Jason has laryngitis.....

Sami

I'm sure it can be misread. Did you notice the color of the carpeting ?

harleysnana
05-04-2007, 01:15 AM
another question I have, is this something that can be "retraced" if the body is exhumed ( sp ) ?
sami???


I'm not sami... but after reading this in the article...
"Investigators, however, do have other methods of obtaining the evidence."
...I think it could be retraced.

I would also bet that Michelle’s family would gladly exhume the body
for the testing.

scandi
05-04-2007, 02:18 AM
Hi Charlie, I did ask that question once of Jake and he responded, saying he thought it was a beige plush.

Scandi

scandi
05-04-2007, 02:27 AM
I'm not sami... but after reading this in the article...
"Investigators, however, do have other methods of obtaining the evidence."
...I think it could be retraced.

I would also bet that Michelle’s family would gladly exhume the body
for the testing.


Hi Harleysnana, If there were no swabs taken and her panties showed nothing, then I wonder what other ways, besides exhumatioin, would give the correct answer?

A little thought here upon my reflection of this situation that now is with the case. Thinking of the future victims which will undoubtedly face the knife of the autopsy specialist in Wake County, I hope this aggregious problem in the ME's office will be addressed and changed as to how they do things.

I really admire Hawthorne for going out on a limb to point out the difference between this autopsy report and that of Mrs Peterson.

Samiya
05-04-2007, 04:09 AM
I'm sure it can be misread. Did you notice the color of the carpeting ?

yeah :(

I got an email from Sarah. Her article will be out either tomorrow or the weekend.

Sami.

april4sky
05-04-2007, 04:26 AM
I find this case very disturbing. Such a brutal murder and yet nothing seems to be happening. The police sounded so confinent in the beginning that they would solve it. There seems to be a lack of publicity too. I'm surprised the press are not all over it. Jason's strange behaviour, from his total lack of concern for his wife, to his refusal to cooperate with the police make him sound like Scott Peterson 2. :mad: I do hope there will be justice for Michelle soon.

scandi
05-04-2007, 11:07 AM
Good Morning,

In the last link posted, in the comment section that follows, I found this comment which is most interesting. It sounds like this person is very knowledgable:

"One of the biggest problems is this... Wake CO SO is investigating the case and CCBI is collecting evidence. If the same LE Agency was handling all of this, this would not have been overlooked. As commented before, the investigator would have attended the autopsy and make sure evidence was collected. CCBI has made LEOs in Wake County very lazy and very unaware of how to properly treat a crime scene. However, I am curious why a Dr. would overrule a request for the collection of evidence. Even if there are no immediate signs of sexual assault, that tissue could always be used in other tests.


MadSkills
May 4, 2007 6:14 a.m."

http://wral.com/news/local/story/1381989/

strach304
05-04-2007, 11:07 AM
Has anyone here seen the warrant that listed the condoms LE took? If not I'm wondering why we haven't seen it. Not returned, under seal, what? Did I miss something? I know the recent source of this info here.

What concerns me is if that info proves to be correct then possibly the sheets, etc. were not taken from the crime scene as that same source told us. It's safe to assume that Jason's attorney hired an investigator who did take them and have them tested. Even if those tests revealed nothing conclusive.

We're pretty sure Jason hasn't been back to the house so he personally couldn't plant evidence like the fragment of tooth. I did consider at one time a sexual assault because there was a supposed insider that claimed Michelle was found nude so that is what LE originally assumed. After the AR we know that's not true. She wouldn't have to have actually been assaulted for that to be the motive or staged to look like that. LE has said there was a struggle and they believe the perp may have been injured. I've read several opinions based on the defensive wounds as to how hard Michelle fought her attacker but we just can't know if she hit them with something. I have the impression they haven't found the murder weapon therefore if it has blood or other dna other than Michelle's that's no help to LE.

If unidentified fingerprints or dna of any kind was found LE cannot be sure imo until they find that person or persons that it belongs to in ruling Jason out entirely. I've often wondered in this day and age where dna is relied on so heavily how many criminals have actually planted dna.

strach304
05-04-2007, 11:44 AM
Another thought I had last night as a possibility is that Ms. Holt was preparing her case and came across this and looked into it. This is the first time she's made any comment on this case to the media. We know she's the one who went directly to the crime scene. Many are speculating about the timing and relevance of this latest info released so maybe an arrest is near.

jake
05-04-2007, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Fife http://websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1471319#post1471319)
Jake,

One your former students, Tennisbuff, is really on your case over at CTV. Bottom line is she does not believe a thing you say.

Thanks, Barney. I can tell you're trying to make me feel good.

What can I say? She can write. She can read. She's a professional. She thinks for herself. I did my job.

--Jake

I am reposting this just to remind the board that I don't mind being called a liar. People think what they want to think. The downright rude posters I simply put on ignore.

Some of us-- me, Hawthorne, jtf, gojo, etc.-- questioned from the beginning what we saw as an INCOMPLETE autopsy report. I reposted Hawthorne's report maybe twice over the last six months, just to remind people.

I also have on file another poster's repudiation of Hawthorne's report, and I have also reposted that, just to be fair.

Maybe we were wrong. Maybe we did see a COMPLETE autopsy report. That's scary.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 11:57 AM
snipped++++++++++++++

[quote=strach304;1472717]Has anyone here seen the warrant that listed the condoms LE took? If not I'm wondering why we haven't seen it. Not returned, under seal, what? Did I miss something? I know the recent source of this info here.

+++++++++++++++++++++

I'm curious, too, as to why that information is not listed in a warrant available to us. That's not where I got the information. I don't know why the item was taken, what significance it has. Maybe none.

But I agree with you, Strach. Always consider the source.

--Jake

scandi
05-04-2007, 12:44 PM
Another thought I had last night as a possibility is that Ms. Holt was preparing her case and came across this and looked into it. This is the first time she's made any comment on this case to the media. We know she's the one who went directly to the crime scene. Many are speculating about the timing and relevance of this latest info released so maybe an arrest is near.

I still think it is just too coincidental that we were given a one-upance here about news to break in the case within a day or two and then bingo, the can of worms about the no rape kit testing is out. Actually I'm glad that info came to light so something will be done to rectify it. If it means the difference in a death penalty qualified case, then whatever they have to do will be done I am sure. I'm glad to see Becky is still on the case. I do feel for Michelle's family if they have to go thru a disinternment.

I still can't get past the thought of someone having the gaul to take something from a crime scene, even if it has been cleared, and not giving the item over to LE. It's just not right. We don't know why they took the item and can only speculate. To me it is almost like walking up to a statue symbolizing justice, and slapping her in the face.

Scandi

spring
05-04-2007, 12:55 PM
snipped

I still can't get past the thought of someone having the gaul to take something from a crime scene, even if it has been cleared, and not giving the item over to LE. It's just not right. We don't know why they took the item and can only speculate. To me it is almost like walking up to a statue symbolizing justice, and slapping her in the face.

Scandi

i agree. it doesn't surprise me from that source. i just really believe in things coming full circle.

scandi
05-04-2007, 01:08 PM
I'm optimistic they will Spring. Eventually I think the perp will pay for a few moments lost in a hot rage, one that has affected the lives of so many people.

So I wonder whatever was done with the bloody socks and sheets? That is such a puzzle to me as I can't see CCBI just leaving bloody material behind that might have fibres or DNA attached. I wonder if LE was called about that and retreived them. Of course they would be contaminated evidence if touched by someone other than LE. What a pickle of fish this is!

Scandi

jake
05-04-2007, 01:16 PM
I still think it is just too coincidental that we were given a one-upance here about news to break in the case within a day or two and then bingo, the can of worms about the no rape kit testing is out. Actually I'm glad that info came to light so something will be done to rectify it. If it means the difference in a death penalty qualified case, then whatever they have to do will be done I am sure. I'm glad to see Becky is still on the case. I do feel for Michelle's family if they have to go thru a disinternment.

I still can't get past the thought of someone having the gaul to take something from a crime scene, even if it has been cleared, and not giving the item over to LE. It's just not right. We don't know why they took the item and can only speculate. To me it is almost like walking up to a statue symbolizing justice, and slapping her in the face.

Scandi

That would be presumptuous of you, Scandi. It would be a slap in the face of LE for you to offer what you think is evidence. An insult. Why not just give it to your lawyer?

--Jake

spring
05-04-2007, 01:18 PM
I'm optimistic they will Spring. Eventually I think the perp will pay for a few moments lost in a hot rage, one that has affected the lives of so many people.

So I wonder whatever was done with the bloody socks and sheets? That is such a puzzle to me as I can't see CCBI just leaving bloody material behind that might have fibres or DNA attached. I wonder if LE was called about that and retreived them. Of course they would be contaminated evidence if touched by someone other than LE. What a pickle of fish this is!

Scandi
i wonder if there is a presumptive test for blood type that could have been done on it that showed it was her blood? and fibers taken from the scene? surely there is a method to the madness on this case!

scandi
05-04-2007, 01:30 PM
Hi Spring, The first post here tells about strips used at the scene as presumptive tests:

http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?threadid=297080

Maybe they did this and they came back negative for sperm so thaqt is why they didn't do the rape kit tests after all. It will all come out.


Hi Jake, The deal is that it is up to LE to solve the crime even if they have made a mistake. The job of the lawyer is to make sure his client gets a fair trial. I think the days of our friend Matlock are over, with the expectations of the lawyer going out and discovering the truth to set his client free.

Gosh, it is a sad comment to say, but I don't think lawyers really care about justice for the victim in a case when they represent the defense. Their legal concern is simply proper justice for their client!

jake
05-04-2007, 01:47 PM
ME and LE are both in CYA mode. LE says it checked the paper asking for the sex test. ME says that doesn't mean the check mark was seen or the action performed.

I think both are at fault. Before the body was released, LE should have studied the AR to see if it contained the information they needed. Why wasn't that done? They knew who killed Michelle.

I have also heard the embarrassment is only going to get worse for LE. That's just my opinion, of course, and all that jazz.

Another opinion: LE will soon apologize to the Young family. LE's treatment of Mrs. Young and her family has been unbelievably rude.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 01:50 PM
snipped++++++++++++++


Hi Jake, The deal is that it is up to LE to solve the crime even if they have made a mistake. The job of the lawyer is to make sure his client gets a fair trial. I think the days of our friend Matlock are over, with the expectations of the lawyer going out and discovering the truth to set his client free.

Gosh, it is a sad comment to say, but I don't think lawyers really care about justice for the victim in a case when they represent the defense. Their legal concern is simply proper justice for their client!

+++++++++++++++++++

And it should be....what?

--Jake

BarnGoddess
05-04-2007, 02:18 PM
ME and LE are both in CYA mode. LE says it checked the paper asking for the sex test. ME says that doesn't mean the check mark was seen or the action performed.

I think both are at fault. Before the body was released, LE should have studied the AR to see if it contained the information they needed. Why wasn't that done? They knew who killed Michelle.

I have also heard the embarrassment is only going to get worse for LE. That's just my opinion, of course, and all that jazz.

Another opinion: LE will soon apologize to the Young family. LE's treatment of Mrs. Young and her family has been unbelievably rude.

--Jake

How can you say that LE's treatment of Mrs. Young and her family has been rude? Which Mrs. Young are you referring to here? The deceased? JY's mother? If JY hasn't responded to LE's request, how can there be rudeness? It appears as if there is no communication at all. LE isn't saying anything to the media other than he hasn't cooperated. What more is there you aren't telling us. Do they call obsessively and hassle the family? Do tell, please.

I would imagine if she were raped and the perp then redressed her body he wouldn't have bothered to clean her up. I would assume that LE or the ME still has her underwear and could get a clue from them if a rape occured.

strach304
05-04-2007, 02:30 PM
I still think it is just too coincidental that we were given a one-upance here about news to break in the case within a day or two and then bingo, the can of worms about the no rape kit testing is out. Actually I'm glad that info came to light so something will be done to rectify it. If it means the difference in a death penalty qualified case, then whatever they have to do will be done I am sure. I'm glad to see Becky is still on the case. I do feel for Michelle's family if they have to go thru a disinternment.

I still can't get past the thought of someone having the gaul to take something from a crime scene, even if it has been cleared, and not giving the item over to LE. It's just not right. We don't know why they took the item and can only speculate. To me it is almost like walking up to a statue symbolizing justice, and slapping her in the face.

Scandi


My hope is that if anything was found and tested or examined for evidence that they felt LE overlooked they would turn it over to LE in the name of justice.

I personally have no stake in this case or who the perp turns out to be even if that is Jason. I will however be very upset if there never is justice for Michelle and to know that the perp of this horrendous crime is still out there.

strach304
05-04-2007, 02:35 PM
That would be presumptuous of you, Scandi. It would be a slap in the face of LE for you to offer what you think is evidence. An insult. Why not just give it to your lawyer?

--Jake

I'm not a mind reader or psychic but I can read between the lines or take a hint most of the time. My hope is that whatever this works out to be that it was done with the intention of finding the true killer and not just a way to make LE look incompetent at trial.

strach304
05-04-2007, 02:43 PM
:snooty: ME and LE are both in CYA mode. LE says it checked the paper asking for the sex test. ME says that doesn't mean the check mark was seen or the action performed.

I think both are at fault. Before the body was released, LE should have studied the AR to see if it contained the information they needed. Why wasn't that done? They knew who killed Michelle.

I have also heard the embarrassment is only going to get worse for LE. That's just my opinion, of course, and all that jazz.

Another opinion: LE will soon apologize to the Young family. LE's treatment of Mrs. Young and her family has been unbelievably rude.

--Jake

That kind of attitude just reminds me of the Peterson's high fiving it in court when Det. Brochini had an oversight about the item mentioned on the MS show. I'm sure you didn't follow that case but it was the same defense type as you are currently insinuating. The laughing in the court room, etc. Where is Scott's a$$ sitting now? I'd advice you to be more concerned with what LE does have rather than does not.:snooty:

spring
05-04-2007, 02:47 PM
I'm not a mind reader or psychic but I can read between the lines or take a hint most of the time. My hope is that whatever this works out to be that it was done with the intention of finding the true killer and not just a way to make LE look incompetent at trial.
i have never seen someone have so little empathy for someone who was so brutally murdered. i have never seen anything said about the intention of finding the true killer. but i agree with you, it would be nice if that were the intent, but i find your latter reason the more than likely reason.

spring
05-04-2007, 02:50 PM
:snooty:

That kind of attitude just reminds me of the Peterson's high fiving it in court when Det. Brochini had an oversight about the item mentioned on the MS show. I'm sure you didn't follow that case but it was the same defense type as you are currently insinuating. The laughing in the court room, etc. Where is Scott's a$$ sitting now? I'd advice you to be more concerned with what LE does have rather than does not.:snooty:

there has been MONTHS of that same type of attitude in this case unfortunately. hopefully, a jury will carefully consider the attempt of a defense attorney to poke holes in what will otherwise be a strong case.

jake
05-04-2007, 02:55 PM
:snooty:

That kind of attitude just reminds me of the Peterson's high fiving it in court when Det. Brochini had an oversight about the item mentioned on the MS show. I'm sure you didn't follow that case but it was the same defense type as you are currently insinuating. The laughing in the court room, etc. Where is Scott's a$$ sitting now? I'd advice you to be more concerned with what LE does have rather than does not.:snooty:

That makes no sense to me. What LE does NOT have is evidence to convict. That's what concerns me.

Maybe laughter and high-fiving impresses you. I guarantee you will see none of that from me or the Youngs.

--Jake

Bellgardin
05-04-2007, 03:06 PM
That makes no sense to me. What LE does NOT have is evidence to convict. That's what concerns me.

Maybe laughter and high-fiving impresses you. I guarantee you will see none of that from me or the Youngs.

--Jake

Unless you work for LE or the prosecutor's office how would you know if the have the evidence for a conviction or not?

strach304
05-04-2007, 03:28 PM
That makes no sense to me. What LE does NOT have is evidence to convict. That's what concerns me.

Maybe laughter and high-fiving impresses you. I guarantee you will see none of that from me or the Youngs.

--Jake


I think I made it perfectly clear in my post that I am not impressed with that kind of thing.

Your statement about the evidence LE does not have for conviction makes no sense to me. How does the fragment of tooth matter? Wouldn't any kind of sex have to have major evidence to prove that same person did in fact kill Michelle? How would a rape kit prove that anyway if a condom was used? These are the only confirmed issues that we are aware of.

scandi
05-04-2007, 03:31 PM
+++++++++++++++++++

And it should be....what?

--Jake


I suppose that is what it should be. I think your statement of giving found possible evidence in a criminal case to the defense attorney instead of the proper authorities is the wrong way to handle it. If his client is not found by the prosecutor to be the kiiller he won't go to trial anyway. If he is guilty in the truth of the matter, why give an edge to the defense of making LE look negligent and then have the trial stopped so the prosecutor has time to then have whatever it is tested. If one is truely interested in justice this seems like a backwards and devious way of doing things.

Maybe Jason is not her killer. If he has agreed to the retaining of this item/s all of this time and then turns it over to his lawyer, in my mind it simply shows suspicion of guilt and he's gonna need any edge he can get.

jake
05-04-2007, 03:31 PM
Unless you work for LE or the prosecutor's office how would you know if the have the evidence for a conviction or not?

No arrest.

--Jake

raisincharlie
05-04-2007, 03:32 PM
ME and LE are both in CYA mode. LE says it checked the paper asking for the sex test. ME says that doesn't mean the check mark was seen or the action performed.

I think both are at fault. Before the body was released, LE should have studied the AR to see if it contained the information they needed. Why wasn't that done? They knew who killed Michelle.

I have also heard the embarrassment is only going to get worse for LE. That's just my opinion, of course, and all that jazz.

Another opinion: LE will soon apologize to the Young family. LE's treatment of Mrs. Young and her family has been unbelievably rude.

--Jake

LE apologizing - it would be better spent apologizing to Michelle Young for not having this murderer already behind bars IMO. As near as I can remember she is the victim in this case and no one else.

jake
05-04-2007, 03:34 PM
I think I made it perfectly clear in my post that I am not impressed with that kind of thing.

Your statement about the evidence LE does not have for conviction makes no sense to me. How does the fragment of tooth matter? Wouldn't any kind of sex have to have major evidence to prove that same person did in fact kill Michelle? How would a rape kit prove that anyway if a condom was used? These are the only confirmed issues that we are aware of.

You lost me with the "fragment" thing. But I believe the whole tooth given to LE might prove significant at some point.

The sex thing? No telling yet how that is going to play out. I do think there is more to it than has yet been released.

--Jake

athy
05-04-2007, 03:39 PM
You lost me with the "fragment" thing. But I believe the whole tooth given to LE might prove significant at some point.

The sex thing? No telling yet how that is going to play out. I do think there is more to it than has yet been released.

--Jake

if it is Michelle's tooth what will it prove? if it were someone else's tooth i believe we would have had an arrest already.

scandi
05-04-2007, 03:40 PM
I think I made it perfectly clear in my post that I am not impressed with that kind of thing.

Your statement about the evidence LE does not have for conviction makes no sense to me. How does the fragment of tooth matter? Wouldn't any kind of sex have to have major evidence to prove that same person did in fact kill Michelle? How would a rape kit prove that anyway if a condom was used? These are the only confirmed issues that we are aware of.

Hi Strach, Do you mean something like a used condum as major evidence? OMG, can you imagine Jason walking into Roger Smiths office and handing something like that to him! :eek: :blushing: Oh, that's right. Jake said it wasn't a used condum! :D

Scout
05-04-2007, 03:42 PM
ME and LE are both in CYA mode. LE says it checked the paper asking for the sex test. ME says that doesn't mean the check mark was seen or the action performed.

I think both are at fault. Before the body was released, LE should have studied the AR to see if it contained the information they needed. Why wasn't that done? They knew who killed Michelle.

I have also heard the embarrassment is only going to get worse for LE. That's just my opinion, of course, and all that jazz.

Another opinion: LE will soon apologize to the Young family. LE's treatment of Mrs. Young and her family has been unbelievably rude.

--Jake

There should have been representatives from both the WCSD and the CCBI present during the autopsy to make absolutely sure that all evidence was collected from the body by the ME. And the autopsy should have been performed by a qualified Medical Examiner, not an intern. This is a murder investigation. Is this the way things are usually done in NC? I guess seeing Dr. Radisch testify at the Mike Peterson trial gave me a false sense of their competency and professionalism.

I'm glad this mistake can be remedied to some extent, but it never should have happened in the first place. I'm disgusted.

jake
05-04-2007, 03:47 PM
LE apologizing - it would be better spent apologizing to Michelle Young for not having this murderer already behind bars IMO. As near as I can remember she is the victim in this case and no one else.

Apologizing to the living carries far more weight than apologizing to the dead. And it will do far more good.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 03:50 PM
if it is Michelle's tooth what will it prove? if it were someone else's tooth i believe we would have had an arrest already.

If Michelle's tooth, why was no one looking for it? If someone else's tooth... whose? Who to arrest?

--Jake

raisincharlie
05-04-2007, 03:52 PM
Apologizing to the living carries far more weight than apologizing to the dead. And it will do far more good.

--Jake

Well this message would be better addressed to Jason Young I think, after all he is the one who placed his own Mother in the position she found herself in didn't he ? Refusing to speak to police, leaving her outside having to deal with them -yes I believe he owes an apology to his Mom. He continues to hide and he continues to shame his family - indeed an apology would do some good, only if it is accompanied by the truth that is.

Michelle Young is the victim.

strach304
05-04-2007, 03:54 PM
:laugh: Hi Strach, Do you mean something like a used condum as major evidence? OMG, can you imagine Jason walking into Roger Smiths office and handing something like that to him! :eek: :blushing: Oh, that's right. Jake said it wasn't a used condum! :D

I was thinking something more along the lines of unidentified dna, unidentified prints in the bedroom, unidentified sperm on carpet or bed linens, etc. When you consider rape as a motive you have to consider other facts that will prove it in addition to evidence since Michelle herself can't tell us.

If you are LE and consider consensual with someone other than Jason either way LE has to prove that same one did in fact kill her rather than had sex or raped. :waitasec:

spring
05-04-2007, 04:00 PM
Well this message would be better addressed to Jason Young I think, after all he is the one who placed his own Mother in the position she found herself in didn't he ? Refusing to speak to police, leaving her outside having to deal with them -yes I believe he owes an apology to his Mom. He continues to hide and he continues to shame his family - indeed an apology would do some good, only if it is accompanied by the truth that is.

Michelle Young is the victim.

rc, you are not holding your breath, are you?:p 6 months later, still wanting an apology for Ms. Young. not justice for Michelle. isn't that what it's all about? justice for a young mother who was taken from this world by someone selfish?

scandi
05-04-2007, 04:01 PM
ITA Strach. I'm not worried about the killer walking in this case. Above all, one thing we do know is there was a young witness to the crime, whose words are vocalized in perpetuity on that 911 tape. Let the jury hear that!


ETA: There is one thing I didn't mention. I know I put together the mentioning of the package of unused condums from the original SW {even though we have no link for that} and something retained from the released crime scene to possibly be an item implying sexual use. And then to have the fact of the no rape kit testing done brought up again to us - all within a day of Amanda's article being published, with the announcement something would be breaking news in the next day or two, it all suddenly made sense to me. Especially when concerns of someone being a material witness or someone being charged with obstruction of justice was a concern.

strach304
05-04-2007, 04:01 PM
If Michelle's tooth, why was no one looking for it? If someone else's tooth... whose? Who to arrest?

--Jake

How do you know they weren't looking for it? How do you know it was even there all that time? You keep saying what if it was someone else's as if you think LE did not verify that it was Michelle's.

jake
05-04-2007, 04:03 PM
Well this message would be better addressed to Jason Young I think, after all he is the one who placed his own Mother in the position she found herself in didn't he ? Refusing to speak to police, leaving her outside having to deal with them -yes I believe he owes an apology to his Mom. He continues to hide and he continues to shame his family - indeed an apology would do some good, only if it is accompanied by the truth that is.

Michelle Young is the victim.

Michelle is a victim. Her unborn son is a victim. In a different way, Cassie is a victim. Jason is a victim. The Fisher family, the Young family, and friends..... we're all victims of this savage killer.

I think none of us want to hear an apology from this killer.

--Jake

athy
05-04-2007, 04:04 PM
If Michelle's tooth, why was no one looking for it? If someone else's tooth... whose? Who to arrest?

--Jake

uumm whoever the DNA would be off of the tooth. they can test the tooth for DNA, most likely they've already done it, or checked her dental records as they can id who belongs to a tooth from that. if not i'm sure they still have it and could. SOMEONE would notice another person missing a tooth who wasn't before this happened.

Scout
05-04-2007, 04:06 PM
Michelle is a victim. Her unborn son is a victim. In a different way, Cassie is a victim. Jason is a victim. The Fisher family, the Young family, and friends..... we're all victims of this savage killer.

I think none of us want to hear an apology from this killer.

--Jake


Jason doesn't get victim status unless and until he's cleared of the murder.

strach304
05-04-2007, 04:15 PM
If a fragment was found they couldn't match that to Michelle's dental records but would have to do dna, right? Anybody? A whole tooth they could id that way without doing the dna. I don't know for certain what was found. First report said tooth, Then we heard fragment and then it was said both were found.

harleysnana
05-04-2007, 04:20 PM
No arrest.

--Jake

No arrest... YET...
I still have faith..

I take it that you "hinting" LE missed evidence
and that the "someone" who found it is in Jason's camp...
"Jason's camp" thinks is big?

So …. if we don’t hear about the “something found”
then can we assume that the defense had it tested and it lead back to Jason? :D

Also Jake….I'm just wondering when you talk about justice and not
giving high fives in court... will you still stand behind those statements
if it comes out that Jason was the killer... like Mark Hackings family did.

Or will you be more like the Petersons family… And still deny even
after the Jury convicted him?

My guess is from reading your posts regarding how they
"treat" Mrs. Young…..and how you view the possible mistakes
that LE made...
You would be more like the Petersons?

JMO;)

scandi
05-04-2007, 04:25 PM
:clap: Great post Harleysnana!

And Strach, Barney said the clerk at the ME's office told him yes the tooth was Michelle's - I think he said it fit into the socket.

Bellgardin
05-04-2007, 04:32 PM
No arrest.

--Jake

There are many cases where the arrest took much longer than 6 months and you know that. It took 2 years to bring Justin Barber to justice and there are many many more cases like that. Obviously it would be great if everything were all wrapped up in a tidy little bow within an hour but this is real life, not CSI or Law & Order.

If JY had already been arrested you would be screaming at the top of your lungs that its been too soon-only 6 months. But since they haven't arrested anyone that has to mean he is innocent? I want justice for Michelle and her son. I care more about that then protecting JY. Honestly, I would prefer that it wasn't JY because then Cassie would have at least one parent. But I'm not ready to think he's innocent just because 6 months have passed and he hasn't been arrested. Granted, he hasn't been arrested, but he hasn't been cleared either. And no one else has been arrested. But then I've already said all this several times.

No arrest does not equal innocent---JMO!!!

Bellgardin
05-04-2007, 04:33 PM
:clap: Great post Harleysnana!

And Strach, Barney said the clerk at the ME's office told him yes the tooth was Michelle's - I think he said it fit into the socket.

I agree-great post!!

scandi
05-04-2007, 04:36 PM
:clap: Gosh, Another great post Bellgardin! That post is fair and balanced all the way down the line ;}

Bellgardin
05-04-2007, 04:43 PM
:clap: Gosh, Another great post Bellgardin! That post is fair and balanced all the way down the line ;}

Thanks Scandi! I admire your posts!

BG

Samiya
05-04-2007, 04:45 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/141/story/570752.html

Pennica said he could not talk about the investigation in Young’s death specifically. But he said a request for a sexual assault exam doesn’t necessarily mean police suspect a victim has been raped.

Sometimes, DNA evidence will show whether a woman has had consensual partners, and that can help investigators check into other leads, he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back much later.

Sami

jake
05-04-2007, 04:47 PM
How do you know they weren't looking for it? How do you know it was even there all that time? You keep saying what if it was someone else's as if you think LE did not verify that it was Michelle's.

In a news story LE said the tooth was not Michelle's. Then the story said the tooth had not been tested.

Not too long ago I provided a link to this story. Now when I go back to look for the story on WRAL, the story I come up with says nothing about the tooth not being tested.

Scout's going to blast me for being paranoid, so I'll brace myself. Maybe somebody else can find that story. No Scout, I'm not blaming WRAL or LE for changing the story or removing it. I just can't find it.

--Jake

strach304
05-04-2007, 04:48 PM
I know Scandi but he's the one that keeps bring up the tooth not being tested like anything other than dna doesn't count. I know the ME had her dental records. Then there's the issue of was a fragment also found? Could this be why Jake thinks the proper testing wasn't done?

I also don't believe any of this puts Jason in the clear with LE until they do assertain the who and why and Jason was no part of it. Who's to say if they have unknown dna, blood, footprints etc. that rules Jason out that he still had no hand in it? Finding that person though LE could find that out. You know if it was a hired thing they will squeal.

strach304
05-04-2007, 04:50 PM
In a news story LE said the tooth was not Michelle's. Then the story said the tooth had not been tested.

Not too long ago I provided a link to this story. Now when I go back to look for the story on WRAL, the story I come up with says nothing about the tooth not being tested.

Scout's going to blast me for being paranoid, so I'll brace myself. Maybe somebody else can find that story. No Scout, I'm not blaming WRAL or LE for changing the story or removing it. I just can't find it.

--Jake

I'd rather see where they said it wasn't Michelle's. I know at the time of the interview they hadn't tested it yet and we told you that over and over again. Doesn't mean that they didn't at all, just at that time.

strach304
05-04-2007, 04:55 PM
http://www.newsobserver.com/141/story/570752.html

Pennica said he could not talk about the investigation in Young’s death specifically. But he said a request for a sexual assault exam doesn’t necessarily mean police suspect a victim has been raped.

Sometimes, DNA evidence will show whether a woman has had consensual partners, and that can help investigators check into other leads, he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back much later.

Sami


There would be other indications as well. Someone even suggested it as SOP and not a reason to believe LE thinks that's what happened. I think the DA came across it looking for defense loop holes while going over the case.

jake
05-04-2007, 04:56 PM
No arrest... YET...
I still have faith..

I take it that you "hinting" LE missed evidence
and that the "someone" who found it is in Jason's camp...
"Jason's camp" thinks is big?

So …. if we don’t hear about the “something found”
then can we assume that the defense had it tested and it lead back to Jason? :D

Also Jake….I'm just wondering when you talk about justice and not
giving high fives in court... will you still stand behind those statements
if it comes out that Jason was the killer... like Mark Hackings family did.

Or will you be more like the Petersons family… And still deny even
after the Jury convicted him?

My guess is from reading your posts regarding how they
"treat" Mrs. Young…..and how you view the possible mistakes
that LE made...
You would be more like the Petersons?

JMO;)

Now wait a minute. All I did was answer a short post with a short post of my own and suddenly I'm like the Peterson family? How about reviewing this:

#169 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1472971&postcount=169) http://websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/report.php?p=1472971)
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jake (http://websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=15044) http://websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_1472971", true);
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 408


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellgardin http://websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1472950#post1472950)
Unless you work for LE or the prosecutor's office how would you know if the have the evidence for a conviction or not?

No arrest.

--Jake

Scout
05-04-2007, 04:56 PM
In a news story LE said the tooth was not Michelle's. Then the story said the tooth had not been tested.

Not too long ago I provided a link to this story. Now when I go back to look for the story on WRAL, the story I come up with says nothing about the tooth not being tested.

Scout's going to blast me for being paranoid, so I'll brace myself. Maybe somebody else can find that story. No Scout, I'm not blaming WRAL or LE for changing the story or removing it. I just can't find it.

--Jake

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4811361

Although it has not yet been tested they believe the tooth belonged to Michelle Young, not her killer.

jake
05-04-2007, 04:58 PM
:clap: Great post Harleysnana!

And Strach, Barney said the clerk at the ME's office told him yes the tooth was Michelle's - I think he said it fit into the socket.

You think they dug Michelle up to check the tooth and socket? I doubt it.

--Jake

Scout
05-04-2007, 04:58 PM
I'd rather see where they said it wasn't Michelle's. I know at the time of the interview they hadn't tested it yet and we told you that over and over again. Doesn't mean that they didn't at all, just at that time.

They never said the tooth wasn't Michelle's; they said it would not have helped identify her killer. Obviously, it was never believed to have been the killer's tooth.

scandi
05-04-2007, 05:00 PM
Hi Scout, And I do believe Barney in his report on seeing the autopsy photos, mentions that whoever he was talking to said it was Michelle's tooth.

jake
05-04-2007, 05:05 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4811361

Although it has not yet been tested they believe the tooth belonged to Michelle Young, not her killer.

Thanks, Scout. Let a poster try that "they believe" stuff on this board. The cries for LINK! LINK! would be deafening.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 05:07 PM
Hi Scout, And I do believe Barney in his report on seeing the autopsy photos, mentions that whoever he was talking to said it was Michelle's tooth.

And Barney didn't ask for a LINK? Doesn't sound like the Barney I know.

--Jake

spring
05-04-2007, 05:07 PM
You think they dug Michelle up to check the tooth and socket? I doubt it.

--Jake
a very good friend of mine who works in a dental office said they do not need the mouth to fit the piece of the puzzle. dental records will tell the story.

Scout
05-04-2007, 05:17 PM
a very good friend of mine who works in a dental office said they do not need the mouth to fit the piece of the puzzle. dental records will tell the story.


Dental records, DNA -- either will suffice.

Several of Michelle's teeth were knocked out, and the tooth was found in close proximity to where Michelle's body and several other of her teeth were recovered. Those facts gave LE pretty good reason to believe that the tooth was hers. It should be positively identified to confirm that belief. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

jake
05-04-2007, 05:27 PM
Dental records, DNA -- either will suffice.

Several of Michelle's teeth were knocked out, and the tooth was found in close proximity to where Michelle's body and several other of her teeth were recovered. Those facts gave LE pretty good reason to believe that the tooth was hers. It should be positively identified to confirm that belief. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

One thing makes me think it COULD be the killer's tooth: the violence of the beating. Maybe the killer became enraged when Michelle fought back and injured him.

--Jake

Scout
05-04-2007, 05:29 PM
And Barney didn't ask for a LINK? Doesn't sound like the Barney I know.

--Jake


Jake, I'm surprised you're not outraged by the latest news. The presence of foreign DNA on Michelle's body would have gone a long way toward clearing Jason. You seem pleased as punch by the failure to check for sexual activity or rape. Why aren't you screaming about a cover-up by LE?

spring
05-04-2007, 05:34 PM
One thing makes me think it COULD be the killer's tooth: the violence of the beating. Maybe the killer became enraged when Michelle fought back and injured him.

--Jake

then that should mean either some foreign dna or jason's dna, right? if she was able to fight that hard and hit the perp in the mouth. hope so.

jake
05-04-2007, 05:50 PM
Jake, I'm surprised you're not outraged by the latest news. The presence of foreign DNA on Michelle's body would have gone a long way toward clearing Jason. You seem pleased as punch by the failure to check for sexual activity or rape. Why aren't you screaming about a cover-up by LE?

No cover-up, Scout. Not pleased by LE blunders, either. But the whole story hasn't come out yet. I can wait.

If I seem pleased as punch, it is at the embarrassment of LE, not at its blunders.

The Youngs are much more forgiving than I. I am still angry at the rude treatment of the Youngs by LE in Raleigh. Until the sheriff acknowledges that shabby treatment and apologizes, I don't feel very cooperative.

--Jake

Scout
05-04-2007, 06:01 PM
No cover-up, Scout. Not pleased by LE blunders, either. But the whole story hasn't come out yet. I can wait.

If I seem pleased as punch, it is at the embarrassment of LE, not at its blunders.

The Youngs are much more forgiving than I. I am still angry at the rude treatment of the Youngs by LE in Raleigh. Until the sheriff acknowledges that shabby treatment and apologizes, I don't feel very cooperative.

--Jake

You've never posted anything that convinces me that LE was rude to the Youngs, Jake.

Regardless, if it turns out that Jason killed Michelle, will you still believe that the Youngs deserve an apology from LE?

strach304
05-04-2007, 06:05 PM
They never said the tooth wasn't Michelle's; they said it would not have helped identify her killer. Obviously, it was never believed to have been the killer's tooth.


That's exactly what I remember too. I've never seen anything where it was reported LE said it wasn't.

strach304
05-04-2007, 06:06 PM
No cover-up, Scout. Not pleased by LE blunders, either. But the whole story hasn't come out yet. I can wait.

If I seem pleased as punch, it is at the embarrassment of LE, not at its blunders.

The Youngs are much more forgiving than I. I am still angry at the rude treatment of the Youngs by LE in Raleigh. Until the sheriff acknowledges that shabby treatment and apologizes, I don't feel very cooperative.

--Jake

If there's more to the story it would really go a long way in knowing what you're talking about imo.

Scout
05-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Here's another question for you, Jake. If investigators had good reason to suspect that Jason killed Michelle, and had indications from Jason's family that they were attempting to shield him from questioning and perhaps hide or dispose of evidence, how should they have treated the Young family?

scandi
05-04-2007, 06:11 PM
Here is RPD's Autopsy Photo Report for posterity:

http://autopsyphotos.blogspot.com/

Snippet
"Blunt force Injury #5

This was the first photo I saw and one of the hardest to look at. The frontal shot of Michelle’s face showed a once beautiful girl with swollen, contorted features. Her upper and lower lips were badly swollen and bruised. Her tongue was very swollen and protruding. The complex mandible fractures described in the report was in layman’s term, a very badly broken jaw around the chin and upper gums, where 3 upper front teeth were missing. Another photo showed 3 perfectly formed teeth, with roots intact. In other words, these 3 teeth were totally knocked /ejected from Michelle’s gums, not just broken off. In addition, there were 2 additional fragmented teeth broken from the lower jaw. As we all know, there was another partial tooth found in the home by the Young Family after the crime scene investigators left. It was confirmed to me that this tooth fragment matched Michelle’s remaining tooth mast."

Scandi

ETA: I posted this on our links thread for reference.

jake
05-04-2007, 06:15 PM
You've never posted anything that convinces me that LE was rude to the Youngs, Jake.

Regardless, if it turns out that Jason killed Michelle, will you still believe that the Youngs deserve an apology from LE?

The shabby treatment by LE has nothing to do with Jason. We're talking bout a grandmother, aunts, and uncles. They're not killers.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 06:18 PM
Here's another question for you, Jake. If investigators had good reason to suspect that Jason killed Michelle, and had indications from Jason's family that they were attempting to shield him from questioning and perhaps hide or dispose of evidence, how should they have treated the Young family?

With respect and dignity. There were no "indications".

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 06:20 PM
Here is RPD's Autopsy Photo Report for posterity:

http://autopsyphotos.blogspot.com/

Snippet
"Blunt force Injury #5

This was the first photo I saw and one of the hardest to look at. The frontal shot of Michelle’s face showed a once beautiful girl with swollen, contorted features. Her upper and lower lips were badly swollen and bruised. Her tongue was very swollen and protruding. The complex mandible fractures described in the report was in layman’s term, a very badly broken jaw around the chin and upper gums, where 3 upper front teeth were missing. Another photo showed 3 perfectly formed teeth, with roots intact. In other words, these 3 teeth were totally knocked /ejected from Michelle’s gums, not just broken off. In addition, there were 2 additional fragmented teeth broken from the lower jaw. As we all know, there was another partial tooth found in the home by the Young Family after the crime scene investigators left. It was confirmed to me that this tooth fragment matched Michelle’s remaining tooth mast."

Scandi

ETA: I posted this on our links thread for reference.

Scandi, you are posting false information.

--Jake

spring
05-04-2007, 06:21 PM
The shabby treatment by LE has nothing to do with Jason. We're talking bout a grandmother, aunts, and uncles. They're not killers.

--Jake
i wish you showed this much emotion for the woman and baby who lay 6 feet under. Michelle was not a killer either.

scandi
05-04-2007, 06:34 PM
Scandi, you are posting false information.

--Jake

Is that because it says partial tooth? Did you see a root on that tooth Jake? I heard Harrison say it was a small tooth, and since we have heard partial, small and shard in reference to that tooth, it would be good to put this to rest.

jake
05-04-2007, 06:38 PM
Is that because it says partial tooth? Did you see a root on that tooth Jake? I heard Harrison say it was a small tooth, and since we have heard partial, small and shard in reference to that tooth, it would be good to put this to rest.

Naw, Scandi. I've gone over this too many times. People will believe what they want to believe. The truth will out eventually.

--Jake

Barney Fife
05-04-2007, 06:39 PM
Scandi, you are posting false information.

--Jake

Calling me a liar again ? What ever the size / condition of the tooth Kim found hidden in the room, the ME office told me they confirmed it was MF-Y's when I asked. Nothing more than stating the obvious.

Who is posting false information Jake ? Condoms & bloody socks ?

Schmerty_Jones
05-04-2007, 06:44 PM
i wish you showed this much emotion for the woman and baby who lay 6 feet under. Michelle was not a killer either.

Nor are Michelle's parents & sister,the Fishers who genuinely loved Michelle, Cassidy & the darling unborn son. You know so much about the treatment of the Youngs.Were you there at every moment????????????

jake
05-04-2007, 06:45 PM
Calling me a liar again ? What ever the size / condition of the tooth Kim found hidden in the room, the ME office told me they confirmed it was MF-Y's when I asked. Nothing more than stating the obvious.

Who is posting false information Jake ? Condoms & bloody socks ?

Just trying to keep Scandi from being embarrassed, Barney. If ME told you it was a tooth fragment, ME is the liar. You are only the purveyor.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 06:47 PM
Nor are Michelle's parents & sister,the Fishers who genuinely loved Michelle, Cassidy & the darling unborn son. You know so much about the treatment of the Youngs.Were you there at every moment????????????

I reckon that's rhetorical. I talk with the Youngs frequently.

--Jake

scandi
05-04-2007, 06:48 PM
Naw, Scandi. I've gone over this too many times. People will believe what they want to believe. The truth will out eventually.

--Jake

I only asked a simple question about the root, as that could be the discerning difference between a partial or a whole tooth. I was really curious or I wouldn't have asked you.

harleysnana
05-04-2007, 06:57 PM
One thing makes me think it COULD be the killer's tooth: the violence of the beating. Maybe the killer became enraged when Michelle fought back and injured him.

--Jake

Is Jason missing part of his tooth?
… Sorry.. couldn’t resist!:slap:
:truce:

jake
05-04-2007, 07:08 PM
I only asked a simple question about the root, as that could be the discerning difference between a partial or a whole tooth. I was really curious or I wouldn't have asked you.

Whole tooth with root. Large enough for the sister to see when she walked into the room. Just my opinion. Just for your curiosity, not to convince.

--Jake

scandi
05-04-2007, 07:14 PM
Whole tooth with root. Large enough for the sister to see when she walked into the room. Just my opinion. Just for your curiosity, not to convince.

--Jake

Thanks Jake, I thought you had said the tooth she found was at the edge of the carpet where it meets the trim at the base of the wall, and next to a closet.

spring
05-04-2007, 07:16 PM
Thanks Jake, I thought you had said the tooth she found was at the edge of the carpet where it meets the trim at the base of the wall, and next to a closet.
that's my recollection of his statement.

jake
05-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Thanks Jake, I thought you had said the tooth she found was at the edge of the carpet where it meets the trim at the base of the wall, and next to a closet.

It was, and evidently very visible.

--Jake

raisincharlie
05-04-2007, 07:44 PM
:laugh: :laugh:

<snip>


I am still angry at the rude treatment of the Youngs by LE in Raleigh. Until the sheriff acknowledges that shabby treatment and apologizes, I don't feel very cooperative.

--Jake

Do tell how your cooperation is of any significance to this case.

This sounds like a little boy who is pouting because someone insulted his Mom or if a grown man - terribly obssessed with Mrs. Young.

spring
05-04-2007, 07:47 PM
:laugh: :laugh:



Do tell how your cooperation is of any significance to this case.

This sounds like a little boy who is pouting because someone insulted his Mom or if a grown man - terribly obssessed with Mrs. Young.
i would like to know what the treatment of ms. young has to do with the case. i agree it sounds like an obsession. and besides that, it was jason that made her deal with LE in the first place.

strach304
05-04-2007, 07:50 PM
I wouldn't ordinarily post this but it may help in understanding the oversight of the tooth. There was a time that I had what I'll call an accident. My top teeth went into a very hard wall that was dry wall or whatever but it was very hard and my teeth left a pretty deep impression in the wall without me knocking out any teeth. Now keep in mind that there wasn't much force at all, like falling into a wall for instance, not pushed. Another important aspect of my experience is to let everyone know that there were no other injuries such as nose or face hitting the wall.

If Michelle's head was being slammed into the wall with as much force as she was hit with I have no doubt that a tooth could've been lodged into the wall. We know LE cut out dry wall. Although I don't know for a fact their evidence gathering procedures it's logical to conclude they took the drywall after they had completed the floor since that's where the body was found. That's how the tooth could've ended up where it was and also unnoticed by LE.

Scout
05-04-2007, 07:53 PM
The shabby treatment by LE has nothing to do with Jason. We're talking bout a grandmother, aunts, and uncles. They're not killers.

--Jake

Grandmothers, aunts and uncles can be accessories after the fact just like anybody else, Jake. Grandmother status doesn't exclude one from suspicion. I'm not trying to compare Mrs Young to Ma Barker, but it would be foolish not to question her, as I assume the WCSD did.

jake
05-04-2007, 07:54 PM
I wouldn't ordinarily post this but it may help in understanding the oversight of the tooth. There was a time that I had what I'll call an accident. My top teeth went into a very hard wall that was dry wall or whatever but it was very hard and my teeth left a pretty deep impression in the wall without me knocking out any teeth. Now keep in mind that there wasn't much force at all, like falling into a wall for instance, not pushed. Another important aspect of my experience is to let everyone know that there were no other injuries such as nose or face hitting the wall.

If Michelle's head was being slammed into the wall with as much force as she was hit with I have no doubt that a tooth could've been lodged into the wall. We know LE cut out dry wall. Although I don't know for a fact their evidence gathering procedures it's logical to conclude they took the drywall after they had completed the floor since that's where the body was found. That's how the tooth could've ended up where it was and also unnoticed by LE.

Don't know why LE took the wall. But surely a tooth sticking in the wall would have been noticed.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 07:55 PM
Grandmothers, aunts and uncles can be accessories after the fact just like anybody else, Jake. Grandmother status doesn't exclude one from suspicion. I'm not trying to compare Mrs Young to Ma Barker, but it would be foolish not to question her, as I assume the WCSD did.

Look again, Scout. "Shabby treatment" is the problem, not questioning.

--Jake

Scout
05-04-2007, 07:55 PM
With respect and dignity. There were no "indications".

--Jake

With all due respect, the fact that Mrs Young refused to allow investigators to speak to Jason on the phone could (and should, imo) be considered an indication that she might have been attempting to shield him from scrutiny.

strach304
05-04-2007, 07:56 PM
:laugh: :laugh:



Do tell how your cooperation is of any significance to this case.

This sounds like a little boy who is pouting because someone insulted his Mom or if a grown man - terribly obssessed with Mrs. Young.

What bothers me is he still can't tell us what was so crude about their treatment. The other thing with Jake is he's always taunting like a child does. "I know something you don't, nah nah nah." Then spits the mantra just in case LE is reading one of the boards I guess is that he, Jason's family or friends know nothing at all but yet he knows all this info that we don't. Ok and that's all I have to say about that.

strach304
05-04-2007, 07:58 PM
Don't know why LE took the wall. But surely a tooth sticking in the wall would have been noticed.

--Jake


With all that blood? They were taking the drywall remember? To the lab.

Scout
05-04-2007, 07:59 PM
Look again, Scout. "Shabby treatment" is the problem, not questioning.

--Jake

You're going to have to be mores specific if you want to convince anyone that Mrs. Young was treated shabbily by LE, Jake.

strach304
05-04-2007, 08:02 PM
Look again, Scout. "Shabby treatment" is the problem, not questioning.

--Jake

I can't speak for anyone else here but I'm willing to listen. What did they do? You can't expect us to have an open mind and consider both sides without the full story. I know how some LE can be and so do others. If nothing else maybe if you discuss it you will feel better.

jake
05-04-2007, 08:02 PM
What bothers me is he still can't tell us what was so crude about their treatment. The other thing with Jake is he's always taunting like a child does. "I know something you don't, nah nah nah." Then spits the mantra just in case LE is reading one of the boards I guess is that he, Jason's family or friends know nothing at all but yet he knows all this info that we don't. Ok and that's all I have to say about that.

Nope. I don't intend to tell you how shabbily LE treated the Young family. LE knows, and I think it was deliberate: "We'll show these mountain hicks how we treat killers and their families."

Yeah, yeah, Scout, don't even start. I'll just wait....and wait....and wait...for the sheriff to apologize to the Youngs.

Scout
05-04-2007, 08:05 PM
Nope. I don't intend to tell you how shabbily LE treated the Young family. LE knows, and I think it was deliberate: "We'll show these mountain hicks how we treat killers and their families."

Yeah, yeah, Scout, don't even start. I'll just wait....and wait....and wait...for the sheriff to apologize to the Youngs.

Don't hold your breath, Jake. I won't hold mine either, waiting for Jason and company to apologize to the Fisher family.

strach304
05-04-2007, 08:05 PM
Nope. I don't intend to tell you how shabbily LE treated the Young family. LE knows, and I think it was deliberate: "We'll show these mountain hicks how we treat killers and their families."

Yeah, yeah, Scout, don't even start. I'll just wait....and wait....and wait...for the sheriff to apologize to the Youngs.

Fine then, stop moaning and groaning about it if you don't want to tell us.:razz:

spring
05-04-2007, 08:08 PM
Fine then, stop moaning and groaning about it if you don't want to tell us.:razz:
it's definitely what he does best :snooty:

if the subject is shabby treatment, can we talk about how the fishers only saw cassidy after it was apparent that the public opinion of jason on the message boards was very negative about keeping the child from her maternal side of the family? would that be considered shabby treatment? or maybe talking about Michelle's sister?

jake
05-04-2007, 08:12 PM
With all due respect, the fact that Mrs Young refused to allow investigators to speak to Jason on the phone could (and should, imo) be considered an indication that she might have been attempting to shield him from scrutiny.

"Refused"?? Scout, I think Jason was unable to speak.

--Jake

jake
05-04-2007, 08:14 PM
Fine then, stop moaning and groaning about it if you don't want to tell us.:razz:

Just trying to answer other posters, Strach. I believe it started with why I am so angry with LE.

--Jake

Scout
05-04-2007, 08:16 PM
"Refused"?? Scout, I think Jason was unable to speak.

--Jake

Sorry, Jake. I just don't believe that.

jake
05-04-2007, 08:21 PM
Anybody figure out yet why this "oh, by the way" revelation at this time by AL? Is it possible there is some sexual-related evidence LE wants to make public? But why? How could this help to catch the killer?

Maybe someone on good terms with AL could write her and ask.

--Jake

spring
05-04-2007, 08:22 PM
"Refused"?? Scout, I think Jason was unable to speak.

--Jake


:clap: yes, we know about his oscar winning performance. he was probably unable because he was passed out asleep.