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PrairieWind
09-24-2010, 04:45 PM
And JK's attorneys want people to know he didn't anally rape Michaela. I don't believe it. But apparently it's ok that he poured accelerant on her and Hayley and set them on fire. OMG these guys are animals. I know I shouldn't but I hope they get theirs in prison! But there is nothing that can be done to them that is as horrible as they did to this family!

The statement by JK attorney really seems stupid and petty now doesnt it in light of this afternoons testimony.

Cher352
09-24-2010, 04:46 PM
"Material (hose) used to tie Hayley melted in fire allowing Her to escape several feet before collapsing in hallway"

This is what I mentioned I feared the other day when I saw the pic with hose instead of rope being used on Hayley. Hose melts very easily as compared to the rope used on her sister. Don't know which death was worse....:cry:

PrairieWind
09-24-2010, 04:47 PM
The state is doing a great job by leaving the jury with the image of those beds and the testimony of the gasoline being poured ON those girls, and the smell of the gasoline from those jugs they passed around. The jury will have that to think about over the weekend. Good trial practice is about timing.

Cher352
09-24-2010, 04:52 PM
Today's session has ended with picture showing burnt bed of Hayley.

I think the fire testimonty was worse than any of the other judging by the tweets.

Expects state to rest on Tuesday (no court on Monday).

PrairieWind
09-24-2010, 05:10 PM
I agree Cher, for me this was the worst. I am by no means a squeemish person; but the idea of pouring gasoline on those two girls as they lay tied to their beds and igniting it is simply behond comprehension. That is truly evil.

hollyjokers
09-24-2010, 05:35 PM
I think at the end of each day this week, I've consoled myself by thinking 'at least the worst is over now' but every day has gotten worse. Today was like being punched in the gut multiple times. Dr. Petit's birthday: what a day. What makes me saddest of all is the image of Jennifer Petit, holding it together in the bank, reassuring those bank clerks that the men were being very polite, and so confident they would simply leave them alone if she just got them money. To have such faith and belief in her fellow man, and to have it disproven in such a way...unspeakable.

The Manson family did the horrible things they did while strung out on LSD and God knows what else. These two did this stone cold sober. Anyone who protests the execution of these two pieces of excrement should have gasoline poured on them.

Cher352
09-24-2010, 06:17 PM
Call For Contempt Ruling

Makuc's testimony came late in the day, followed by a dramatic appeal by Dr. William Petit Jr. for a lawyer to be held in contempt of court for statements he made in apparent violation of a gag order in the case.

Speaking on the courthouse steps, Petit said the lawyer, Jeremiah Donovan, also allowed a writer to interview Komisarjevsky in prison and should be cited for that as well.

Donovan held a brief courthouse press conference during a break in testimony in the Hayes' case to insist that Komisarjevsky did not anally rape 11-year-old Michaela.

"We are deeply sympathetic to the sadness of the Petit family, and I realize this is a very small solace," said Donovan. But he said it would be a long time before his client's trial and he did not want to let linger any misunderstanding from testimony Thursday.

Under cross-examination Thursday, a medical examiner said swabs taken from the girl's anal area turned up enzymes for semen and sperm cells. Donovan said he wanted to make clear that Komisarjevsky has already admitted to ejaculating over the girl but did not anally rape her.

A gag order that prohibits lawyers in both cases from making "extrajudicial statements."

Family members were outraged.

Petit's sister, Johanna Petit Chapman, said the defense had wanted separate trials, "yet he is holding court on the steps of the courthouse."

"We don't need his sympathy," she said, "we don't want his sympathy."

http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-hayes-day7-0925-20100924,0,3848858.story

This whole family continues to amaze me with their strenght!

JSR
09-24-2010, 06:43 PM
How horrid, to be awake and feel gasoline poor over you. The terror they must have felt must have been unimaginable.

ziggy
09-24-2010, 07:18 PM
I cannot imagine their screams alone not making it outside for the "police parimeter" to hear. Horrifying. God Bless the family.

hollyjokers
09-24-2010, 07:31 PM
I could be wrong, it's been over 3 years but I thought the initial story in People magazine quoted firefighters and/or cops saying they could hear the girls scream, but the fire was too hot to get to them. This would seem to contradict what was entered into testimony.

MCDRAW
09-24-2010, 07:42 PM
The statement by JK attorney really seems stupid and petty now doesnt it in light of this afternoons testimony.


Yes like you can make him sound more human after tying them up, pouring gas on them and setting them on fire. NOTHING can ever make these guys sound more human. That attorney made himself look stupid!

JBean
09-24-2010, 08:16 PM
I could be wrong, it's been over 3 years but I thought the initial story in People magazine quoted firefighters and/or cops saying they could hear the girls scream, but the fire was too hot to get to them. This would seem to contradict what was entered into testimony.
I know that was discussed in the early thread, so I believe it was in an article.

Also at the beginning of the case, they said that the murderers had targeted them at Walmart or some store where they saw them and followed them to see where they lived and broke in later.

Has that come out in testimony? I didn't see it, but have not read every day. I just wondered is that is indeed how they chose this family.
TIA.

hollyjokers
09-24-2010, 08:42 PM
IIRC Komisarjevsky alone spotted Jennifer and girls at the grocery store and, supposedly based on their vehicle, concluded they had money, followed them home. I believe this has been put on the record in court, though Hayes confession makes it sound like they just drove around for hours and picked the house at random.

jjenny
09-24-2010, 08:58 PM
I think at the end of each day this week, I've consoled myself by thinking 'at least the worst is over now' but every day has gotten worse. Today was like being punched in the gut multiple times. Dr. Petit's birthday: what a day. What makes me saddest of all is the image of Jennifer Petit, holding it together in the bank, reassuring those bank clerks that the men were being very polite, and so confident they would simply leave them alone if she just got them money. To have such faith and belief in her fellow man, and to have it disproven in such a way...unspeakable.

The Manson family did the horrible things they did while strung out on LSD and God knows what else. These two did this stone cold sober. Anyone who protests the execution of these two pieces of excrement should have gasoline poured on them.

I am guessing Mrs. Petit did not know what was done to her little girl. The child was taken to a different room from Mrs. Petit, and it looks like Mrs. Petit herself was not assaulted until she came back from the bank. So she probably did believe the perps were only after money at the time she went to the bank.

William N
09-24-2010, 09:21 PM
I repeat, people who find themselves in this situation have to assume their abductors will kill them. You have nothing to lose by attempting to escape. This means informing law enforcement and not returning if allowed to go to a bank.

Do not believe what criminals say.

David In TN

jjenny
09-24-2010, 09:38 PM
I repeat, people who find themselves in this situation have to assume their abductors will kill them. You have nothing to lose by attempting to escape. This means informing law enforcement and not returning if allowed to go to a bank.

Do not believe what criminals say.

David In TN
Nothing to lose? What about the children? The mother clearly could have escaped while at the bank, but since her daughters were held hostage, she obviously didn't try.

jilly
09-24-2010, 10:54 PM
In the video I saw of Mr Donovan, it seems like it's his view that he's not allowed to speak directly to the Petit family and was therefore going through the media to make his point to them.

jilly
09-24-2010, 11:02 PM
And JK's attorneys want people to know he didn't anally rape Michaela. I don't believe it. But apparently it's ok that he poured accelerant on her and Hayley and set them on fire. OMG these guys are animals. I know I shouldn't but I hope they get theirs in prison! But there is nothing that can be done to them that is as horrible as they did to this family!

If they get the DP they will probably get their own cell. Scott Pedersen gets to play basketball every day and has made friends.
I think even if these two have to same thing, they'll always have to watch over their shoulders if they leave their cell.

jilly
09-24-2010, 11:04 PM
Did you notice in an earlier article that when Donovan's phone went off in the Courtroom the ringtone was "Joy to the World"???!!! The courtroom erupted with disgusting gasps.

This is insane.

WellDone
09-24-2010, 11:29 PM
Donovan knows exactly what he's doing! It's crazy & insulting to the Hawke-Petit family & judicial system handling these 2 trials. JMO

WellDone
09-24-2010, 11:31 PM
If they get the DP they will probably get their own cell. Scott Pedersen gets to play basketball every day and has made friends.
I think even if these two have to same thing, they'll always have to watch over their shoulders if they leave their cell.

What????? I thought Scottie had to be in a private cell for his protection... why does he get to come out & play when he is suppose to be punished???

jjenny
09-24-2010, 11:45 PM
Did you notice in an earlier article that when Donovan's phone went off in the Courtroom the ringtone was "Joy to the World"???!!! The courtroom erupted with disgusting gasps.

This is insane.

It's almost like he is trying for the judge to hold him in contempt.
First the phone call, for which the judge kicked him out, then the press conference.

jjenny
09-24-2010, 11:49 PM
Donovan knows exactly what he's doing! It's crazy & insulting to the Hawke-Petit family & judicial system handling these 2 trials. JMO

What is that he is trying to achieve? Because I don't get it.

jilly
09-24-2010, 11:53 PM
What????? I thought Scottie had to be in a private cell for his protection... why does he get to come out & play when he is suppose to be punished???

Regulation - a few hrs a day. Forget how many.

Apparently when you murder your pregnant wife the Cons only consider the wife which is no big deal thus the reason he has friends.

jilly
09-24-2010, 11:54 PM
It's almost like he is trying for the judge to hold him in contempt.
First the phone call, for which the judge kicked him out, then the press conference.

If he is in contempt, I say forget the fine. Just send him to jail.

jilly
09-25-2010, 12:00 AM
What is that he is trying to achieve? Because I don't get it.

One might think he's showing some empathy for the Petit families for their horror. Dream on.
Honestly, I don't know why he did this. He mentioned that his client wanted to plead guilty so you'd think that would have applied to that particular charge. The only reason given for the pros declining was that they wanted the DP off the table.

PrairieWind
09-25-2010, 12:19 AM
The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to poison the jury pool, and attempt to move the trial to another venue plus preserve an issue to appeal. But the state may argue that JK waives those rigths/appeals because his own attorneys poisoned the pool and may have done it intentionally. They may also be attempting to act so outrageously that JK's appeallat attorneys (almost always different from the trial attorney) will argue that trial counsel was completely ineffective. All the above are completely unethical and would warrant not only sanctions by the judge, but possible sanctions by the bar associatoin.

Native New Yorker
09-25-2010, 01:07 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/25/nyregion/25cheshire.html?partner=rss&emc=rss


"When Hayley’s body was found at the top of the stairs outside her bedroom, the detective said, it was covering a partly melted plastic bottle.
Other evidence in the case has indicated that at one point while the Petit family (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/petit_family/index.html?inline=nyt-per) was held captive, Mr. Hayes went to a gas station where he filled up several large plastic containers with gasoline."

Cher352
09-25-2010, 08:14 AM
Well written article on CNN with some good comments:

Police: Girls killed in home invasion may have been set afire
By Swetha Iyengar, In SessionSeptember 24, 2010 10:34 p.m. EDT

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/24/connecticut.murder.trial/index.html?hpt=Sbin

JoeFromLB
09-25-2010, 11:57 AM
It's almost like he is trying for the judge to hold him in contempt.
First the phone call, for which the judge kicked him out, then the press conference.

That reminds me of an old joke. What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.

William N
09-25-2010, 12:05 PM
Nothing to lose? What about the children? The mother clearly could have escaped while at the bank, but since her daughters were held hostage, she obviously didn't try.

The children and their mother were killed despite her doing as she was told. She could have stayed at the bank until the police came and arrested Hayes while he was sitting in the car. It could have been taken from there.

I know she did what she thought was best for her children and there were no good choices. I would hope people would take this case as a lesson if god forbid, they found themselves in this situation.

Another good idea is to have a code word to use if forced to call a family member with a gun trained on you, from an ATM for example.

David In TN

Jennifer33
09-25-2010, 04:58 PM
It certainly seems these days that the world is the devil's playground. So much of what I hear anymore and especially in this particular case makes me wonder...and I'm afraid to even ask...what next?

The thought that this entire act could occur without a directors, actors/actresses and without credits running after it certainly shakes the foundation of my faith.

This poor man has to live the rest of his life with the memories of what he had to have seen..heard..and felt himself. I have to imagine if it weren't for getting justice, he'd have nothing to live for.

I hope the jury has no hesitation to do what needs to be done at the end of the day. I'm holding what little faith I have in humanity.

believe09
09-25-2010, 09:39 PM
I repeat, people who find themselves in this situation have to assume their abductors will kill them. You have nothing to lose by attempting to escape. This means informing law enforcement and not returning if allowed to go to a bank.

Do not believe what criminals say.

David In TN


The children and their mother were killed despite her doing as she was told. She could have stayed at the bank until the police came and arrested Hayes while he was sitting in the car. It could have been taken from there.

I know she did what she thought was best for her children and there were no good choices. I would hope people would take this case as a lesson if god forbid, they found themselves in this situation.

Another good idea is to have a code word to use if forced to call a family member with a gun trained on you, from an ATM for example.

David In TN

Well, this is an interesting perspective, but fwiw it feels a little like victim bashing to me-these men were not going to let them go. True. They knew it, and their advantage was that the victims lived in a world that didnt encounter men like this. Which is why they were chosen. Because they (the victims) believed that money was the motivator. Not rape and murder. I do not believe money was the motivator-this was a last hurrah from two men who knew they were going out, so they might as well make it worth it and make a splash.

This woman did everything right-she didnt panic, she maintained her dignity and likely believed that in the end something about that behavior would win the day. She had no idea that fight or not fight-it wasnt going to make a difference. I am quite certain that when she came home, she knew it would not end well. Not well at all. I am certain she knew her little lovely daughter had been attacked by this monster, because supposedly it was the motivator for her own rape.

We can agree to disagree on this point-I cannot let stand a comment however that she should have done something differently. Her family lived for HOURS after these guys entered the home. Whose to say she did not make the difference in the end?

jjenny
09-25-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't think she had any idea about her daughter when she was at the bank. She got more money then they asked for-I believe she fully expected them to take the money and leave them alone. She certainly could have saved herself by staying at the bank but since the children were held hostage it wouldn't have been an easy thing to do for a mother.

tapu
09-25-2010, 09:58 PM
Yeah, I'm with you, B'lieve, on that. What actually happened provides no argument for behaving differently in this case. These were insane and irrational turns these guys took throughout the crime. There is nothing the victims--or the police--could have foreseen to do differently. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think it takes thick-headedness or arrogance to suggest they made informed choices that were wrong.

Native New Yorker
09-25-2010, 11:17 PM
That fact just stuns me...not only do we have the family and friends of the victims affected, but forever will live the thought of what might have been in the hearts and minds of the police who were on the scene, and the bank employees...
I am not pointing any fingers at all, but it seems clear to me that this situation MIGHT have ended differently. Perhaps someone would have still died, but I feel ( as I am sure those involved feel) that perhaps at least one person might have been saved if things had gone differently.

Also, I think that those who really know just how evil people can be are more aware than people like the Petits. I believe that Mrs. Petit was a kind person who believed in the Golden Rule, and who also believed that people are basically good. We know better. Perhaps if she had been more cynical, things would have gone differently, but this was a Perfect Storm, with her apparent belief that the monsters would keep their word, combined with a lethal miscalculation on the part of LE.

Also, I feel that there is nothing wrong with pointing out the sad lessons to be learned from a case like this, as William did. Home invasions, like car jackings, never end well. Forewarned is forearmed. These victims had no idea, but that is certainly not their fault.

tapu
09-26-2010, 12:38 AM
Wow, lots of might have beens, could have beens, if she hads, differentlys....

Everything that has ever happened might, could, should, possibly, have been different.... And if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly, WWII might have ended sooner.

But there is nothing in this situation that victims or police obviously could or should have done differently--nothing they did shows panic, or ignorance, or cowardice, or self-centeredness, that I can see. The saying "Hindsight is 20-20" may have lost its impact--it is meant to imply that things seem clear afterwards that could not possibly have been seen clearly before.

Native New Yorker
09-26-2010, 10:17 AM
You totally missed my point! Yes, hindsight for some but my point was :

those who really know just how evil people can be would have realized from the beginning how unlikely it was that the criminals meant anything but harm.

The Petit family was doomed, in my opinion, by their belief in the inherent goodness of their fellow man.
Some of us have no such illusions, and that is all I meant.

I am entitled to my opinion

jjenny
09-26-2010, 10:58 AM
You totally missed my point! Yes, hindsight for some but my point was :

those who really know just how evil people can be would have realized from the beginning how unlikely it was that the criminals meant anything but harm.

The Petit family was doomed, in my opinion, by their belief in the inherent goodness of their fellow man.
Some of us have no such illusions, and that is all I meant.

I am entitled to my opinion


Not everyone who encounters criminals ends up dead. How exactly was Petit family supposed to know what was going to happen? Even police had no idea this was going to turn out the way it did, otherwise I presume they wouldn't be waiting in a perimeter around the house.

PrairieWind
09-26-2010, 11:41 AM
I don't think its victim bashing to say "hey, things could have been different is xyz had happened." Thats how we learn from the past. In every crime there are things that could have been done by people (victims, police, passers-by) that could have prevented tragedy. I dont think the Petits, nor the police, nor the bank workers acted unreasonably here. What happened happened. Hayes and JK are solely responsible. But as we move forward in life, there are things we all can take from this crime that we might consider if faced with situations in the future.

tapu
09-26-2010, 12:29 PM
And then, in another situation in the future, if a hostage is sent into a bank to get money and are told that they'll be freed right away , but instead they call the cops and hide in the bank, and then the perps come in and kill everyone in the bank, we can say, "if they had just gone in there, gotten the money, and given it to them, all those people would still be alive today. We can learn from that."


I can't believe that the fallacy in this is so hard to see.


(and yes, NYer, you are of course entitled to your opinion; are you implying that I think you're not? p-a.)

MCDRAW
09-26-2010, 02:34 PM
Well, this is an interesting perspective, but fwiw it feels a little like victim bashing to me-these men were not going to let them go. True. They knew it, and their advantage was that the victims lived in a world that didnt encounter men like this. Which is why they were chosen. Because they (the victims) believed that money was the motivator. Not rape and murder. I do not believe money was the motivator-this was a last hurrah from two men who knew they were going out, so they might as well make it worth it and make a splash.

This woman did everything right-she didnt panic, she maintained her dignity and likely believed that in the end something about that behavior would win the day. She had no idea that fight or not fight-it wasnt going to make a difference. I am quite certain that when she came home, she knew it would not end well. Not well at all. I am certain she knew her little lovely daughter had been attacked by this monster, because supposedly it was the motivator for her own rape.

We can agree to disagree on this point-I cannot let stand a comment however that she should have done something differently. Her family lived for HOURS after these guys entered the home. Whose to say she did not make the difference in the end?


I don't see this as victim bashing. I don't think anyone is saying that Mrs. Petit did anything wrong. I see this as the most horrible nightmare that can be imagined. A family home asleep, suposedly safe and sound. People break in and do the most horrible, terrifying things. It's only human nature to try to come up with a different plan, hoping you can get your family out alive, if God forbid it happened to you. Personally if it happened to them it could happen to anyone. If your plan fails, others will try to come up with a different plan. Because we all just can not wrap our minds around someone so evil that they would tie children up, pour gas on them, and burn them alive. JMO

joypath
09-26-2010, 02:35 PM
:twocents:I just "jumped into" this forum discussion again as the trial began, totally planning to be a silent observer and abide by the boss' demands of "no comment to the press or bloggers" but this issue of the demarcation of blame is for me a profound one. Both "perps" were out quite familiar with the judicial system, the system that determined that their previous encounters with malfeasance within society were not aggressive toward human contact, merely crimes against possessions. For this reason, they were declared eligible for a return to normal society where it was assumed (remember what ASS U ME means!) they would be able to function. So 2 charming moaks team up and utilize their combined grey matter :waitasec:to figure out how to bully their way into some money & on the fly create a plan to cover up the crime by escalating their "bad deeds".
THE BLAME FOR THESE DEATHS & THE NEAR DEATH is entirely ON & WITH the 2 CRIMINALS:loser::loser:, the learned lessons from these nightmares are the legacy & gift from ALL OUR CRIME VICTIMS. And the folks :angel:working in ANY capacity for the VICTIMS are attempting to continue the legacy and cherish the gift, if I didn't believe this, I'd jump ship and head for the lucrative field of :croc:corporative private practice (or maybe even become a hired gun :sick:defense team :sick:only forensic pathologist expert! N O T ).

Yes, point well taken that Cheshire Ct is NOT a hot bed of criminal activity BUT the LE community of CT is a wicked strong and united COMMUNICATING, COOPERATIVE Brotherhood and radio & telephone frequencies really provide all kinds of really neat information and help! :innocent:
I've experienced the interaction of LE at the various levels in other states, gotta give props where they are due, Connecticut has figured out the LE multilevel dance without stubbing too many toes or egos!:dance:

JBean
09-26-2010, 06:50 PM
We all have the luxury of hindsight. of course we know what would have been a better course of action NOW. but if Mrs. Hawke-Petit had not returned to the house and her family ended up dead, she would have assumed it was her fault that she was not compliant.
If police stormed the house and the perps killed the family as they were storming in,we would think that LE was careless and if they had only hung back all would have been well.

These were completely unpredictable men and circumstances, in reality another scenario could have ended up with even Mr. Petit dead.

With that said, i have my own plan in my own mind what I will do if ever taken captive and I will stick with my plan because all i can go with are the odds.

Cher352
09-26-2010, 08:06 PM
I must say that I have been on this thread daily for the last 2 weeks and I haven't seen anything that could be considered victim bashing.

What there has been is some good discussion what you could do in a situation like this. I never really thought about what to do and I am sure the Petits never did either. This discussion has caused to me think about it but as the criminal mind can be so unpredictable there is no way to know which is best in all situations.

God help any of us that finds ourselves in anything close to this but I hope anything anyone has read here might help them survive.

M.James
09-26-2010, 08:29 PM
I'm sorry to jump in, mostly in the blind, as I hadn't heard of this case before reading it here (remote as I am). But, I've found myself somewhat attached to following the trial and comments, along with a few other stories here that I am familiar with.

It bothers me that (through reading the comments here) people say the mother said the intruders were 'polite'. I wonder if this word was misunderstood (by the bank teller?), if she actually said something else, but it was misheard.

The reason(s) it doesn't make sense to me that she'd use such a word is because in such a situation is it doesn't sound immediate.

And, supposedly, the first thing they did was beat her husband - that's not quite a 'polite' action.
She had to wonder where he was if he was tied in the basement before they woke her; she had to be worried he was possibly dead, especially if there were blood on the couch - where she'd likely last seen him. If she did see him, she had to see he was in severe condition. Either way, she had to know something was very wrong, so to even think to use that word is a mystery to me.

So, if someone did (or even didn't) misunderstand what she was saying, it was repeated in the 911 call. The police have that to go on - 'Polite' intruders/hostage-holders want money. Serious enough on its own account, but it doesn't likely sound life threatening to law enforcement.
They went, they set up blocks, and watched; they did take it seriously from the information they got. They hadn't been given reason to believe that barging-in was going to save a life, not that I've read anywhere, anyway.

So, here's my question - what if they hadn't taken time to set up road blocks and scout out the situation? What if these two things had gotten away? I doubt they would have stopped there.

I don't have friends or family in law enforcement, so I'm not trying to defend or justify how things were handled. But, there are no rewinds in life, and I don't like to think it's possible that they could have gotten away with this.

jjenny
09-26-2010, 09:37 PM
The woman is dead, so what exactly is the point picking over words she supposedly used when her children were held hostage? By the way, on the same 911 call, the bank manager tells police Mrs. Petit's husband and children were going to be KILLED if Mrs. Petit told the police. So I fail to see as to why police shouldn't have realized this was a potentially deadly situation.

JBean
09-26-2010, 09:52 PM
I'm sorry to jump in, mostly in the blind, as I hadn't heard of this case before reading it here (remote as I am). But, I've found myself somewhat attached to following the trial and comments, along with a few other stories here that I am familiar with.

It bothers me that (through reading the comments here) people say the mother said the intruders were 'polite'. I wonder if this word was misunderstood (by the bank teller?), if she actually said something else, but it was misheard.

The reason(s) it doesn't make sense to me that she'd use such a word is because in such a situation is it doesn't sound immediate.

And, supposedly, the first thing they did was beat her husband - that's not quite a 'polite' action.
She had to wonder where he was if he was tied in the basement before they woke her; she had to be worried he was possibly dead, especially if there were blood on the couch - where she'd likely last seen him. If she did see him, she had to see he was in severe condition. Either way, she had to know something was very wrong, so to even think to use that word is a mystery to me.

So, if someone did (or even didn't) misunderstand what she was saying, it was repeated in the 911 call. The police have that to go on - 'Polite' intruders/hostage-holders want money. Serious enough on its own account, but it doesn't likely sound life threatening to law enforcement.
They went, they set up blocks, and watched; they did take it seriously from the information they got. They hadn't been given reason to believe that barging-in was going to save a life, not that I've read anywhere, anyway.

So, here's my question - what if they hadn't taken time to set up road blocks and scout out the situation? What if these two things had gotten away? I doubt they would have stopped there.

I don't have friends or family in law enforcement, so I'm not trying to defend or justify how things were handled. But, there are no rewinds in life, and I don't like to think it's possible that they could have gotten away with this.Welcome M James. Jump in any time.
interesting thought. I suspect they followed the same protocol with a hostage situation, even if they thought the intruders were polite.

We have to remember that LE have duty to keep themselves safe as well, so they have to establish some sort of perimeter to determine what they are dealing with. This was a perfect storm and no one realized what these guys were capable of.

Reality is the cops were there thanks to Mrs. H-P and alerting the teller saved her husband's life, imo, as well as set up the capture of these 2 guys.

jjenny
09-26-2010, 09:57 PM
Welcome M James. Jump in any time.
interesting thought. I suspect they followed the same protocol with a hostage situation, even if they thought the intruders were polite.

We have to remember that LE have duty to keep themselves safe as well, so they have to establish some sort of perimeter to determine what they are dealing with. This was a perfect storm and no one realized what these guys were capable of.

Reality is the cops were there thanks to Mrs. H-P and alerting the teller saved her husband's life, imo, as well as set up the capture of these 2 guys.

I disagree that the cops saved the husbands life. He had saved himself by hopping out of there, otherwise he'd be dead with the rest of the family.
I don't see anything that police did that lead to his life being saved.

WellDone
09-26-2010, 10:09 PM
The woman is dead, so what exactly is the point picking over words she supposedly used when her children were held hostage? By the way, on the same 911 call, the bank manager tells police Mrs. Petit's husband and children were going to be KILLED if Mrs. Petit told the police. So I fail to see as to why police shouldn't have realized this was a potentially deadly situation.
BBM:
Sadly....Mrs H-P also was under the impression & gave to the teller info....that as long as the 2 perps got the money the family would be safe..... imagine theives that lie.... :banghead: these 2 are the worst of the worst... IMO......

IMO.... the only fault should go to the 2 perps.... they clearly are at fault in all of this.... regardless of how co-operative the family was these 2 were hell bent on creating chaos & evil..... NOW that they are caught...of course they say it got out of control, but in all actuallity they intending harm from the get go & came prepared.... that wasn't bad enough...then Hayes intentionally goes out to buy gas!!!!

hollyjokers
09-26-2010, 10:23 PM
Petit Biker Fundraiser (http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-petit-family-motorcycle-fundraiser20100926,0,7143387.story)

Looks like a lovely way to remember Jennifer on her birthday; nice to see Dr. P smiling.

JBean
09-26-2010, 10:34 PM
I disagree that the cops saved the husbands life. He had saved himself by hopping out of there, otherwise he'd be dead with the rest of the family.
I don't see anything that police did that lead to his life being saved.
Hi jjenny, perhaps, but I think the cops upset their chi and who knows what may have happened.

M.James
09-26-2010, 11:31 PM
The woman is dead, so what exactly is the point picking over words she supposedly used when her children were held hostage? By the way, on the same 911 call, the bank manager tells police Mrs. Petit's husband and children were going to be KILLED if Mrs. Petit told the police. So I fail to see as to why police shouldn't have realized this was a potentially deadly situation.

Sorry, I didn't realize it isn't ok to make an observation.
Nor did it occur to me that my wonderings might be met with hostility. I'm too new to know if that's the norm around here, but I'm certainly in the wrong place.

Carry on.

*****************************

JBean -

I agree. I think you realize the summary of my thoughts was to say that they didn't get away with it. A horrific outcome, but others will never have to deal with these two again.

And, I appreciate the welcome. But, I'll watch this one from the sidelines - arguing doesn't appeal to me.

JBean
09-26-2010, 11:35 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize it isn't ok to make an observation.
Nor did it occur to me that my wonderings might be met with hostility. I'm too new to know if that's the norm around here, but I'm certainly in the wrong place.

Carry on.

*****************************

JBean -

I agree. I think you realize the summary of my thoughts were to say that they didn't get away with it. A horrific outcome, but others will never have to deal with these two again.

And, I appreciate the welcome. But, I'll watch this one from the sidelines - arguing doesn't appeal to me.
Don't have to argue. Just scroll by. :)

I did understand what you were saying and I hope you don't stay on the sidelines too long.

browneyes
09-27-2010, 12:12 AM
http://blogs.courant.com/helen_ubinas/

try just clicking the link.


Thank you!

Cher352
09-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Reminder:

No court today, trial continues on Tuesday.

jjenny
09-27-2010, 11:30 AM
BBM:
Sadly....Mrs H-P also was under the impression & gave to the teller info....that as long as the 2 perps got the money the family would be safe..... imagine theives that lie.... :banghead: these 2 are the worst of the worst... IMO......

IMO.... the only fault should go to the 2 perps.... they clearly are at fault in all of this.... regardless of how co-operative the family was these 2 were hell bent on creating chaos & evil..... NOW that they are caught...of course they say it got out of control, but in all actuallity they intending harm from the get go & came prepared.... that wasn't bad enough...then Hayes intentionally goes out to buy gas!!!!

I don't think these two suspects wanted to leave any witnesses. The story Hayes told about why he bought gas is that they were going to burn the house and put the family in the car doesn't make sense to me. What exactly would be the purpose of burning the house down but leaving the family in the car? I bet these suspects really believed they could get away with it-JK called his work saying his daughter was sick and thus he was going to miss work-why would he worry about his job unless he believed he was going to get away with it?
So I don't think Mrs. Petit could have changed anything by cooperating fully-but unfortunately she had no idea. As for police, even if Mrs. Petit described the people who were holding her children hostage as nice, I'd think police should have figured out people who hold children hostage aren't nice. And she also said that if the police are told her children and husband are going to be killed-that certainly doesn't sound like police should have been under the impression that the family was being held by nice hostage takers who wouldn't harm a fly.

hollyjokers
09-27-2010, 01:25 PM
Komisarjevsky attorney called into court for contempt hearing (http://http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-komisarjevsky-attorney-contempt-hearing-0927,0,1209537.story)

AH HA...Jerk!

believe09
09-27-2010, 01:50 PM
My issue with the police response was the lack of weapons the intruders had. they did not have guns. They had a/some baseball bats. Police set up a perimeter announcing their presence to the perps-giving the perps an opportunity to set the residents on fire. It may be police procedure, but it seems counter-intuitive especially given the injuries to Dr Petit, arguably the biggest threat to them in that house.

JMVHO. I think the victims were incredibly brave-personally I believe that whatever they were doing kept them alive for hours, vs the less than 30 minutes (IIRC) that went by from the arrival of the police to the murder of the family.

joypath
09-27-2010, 03:51 PM
FYI: local TV "update" http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/new_haven_cty/cheshire-home-invasion-attorney-faces-contempt


And for those interested, Jeremiah Donovan, Esq. is a private practice defense atty. who is under the title of special public defender. This fancy title gives him the priviledge of "defending" this death penalty case at the state of Ct rates rather than at his usual and customary rates, which are, due to his reputation, skills and demand, higher than most. He is VERY capable in protecting the rights of his clients.

IMO, his commentary was totally out of character, this is more like something he'd leave for cross during the case in chief when it's HIS turn to defend HIS client (okay, minimize the actions of HIS client). This atty. is NOT afraid to tangle with the scientific community!

MCDRAW
09-27-2010, 07:27 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize it isn't ok to make an observation.
Nor did it occur to me that my wonderings might be met with hostility. I'm too new to know if that's the norm around here, but I'm certainly in the wrong place.

Carry on.

*****************************

JBean -

I agree. I think you realize the summary of my thoughts was to say that they didn't get away with it. A horrific outcome, but others will never have to deal with these two again.

And, I appreciate the welcome. But, I'll watch this one from the sidelines - arguing doesn't appeal to me.


I will say it doesn't appeal to me either. I have been a member here for a while and this is really the first trial or case I have followed that I feel I have been attacked for having an opinion. I've tried to post as little as possible because it is very tiring taking up for yourself and explaining over and over what you meant and what you didn't.

Cher352
09-27-2010, 07:31 PM
My issue with the police response was the lack of weapons the intruders had. they did not have guns. They had a/some baseball bats. Police set up a perimeter announcing their presence to the perps-giving the perps an opportunity to set the residents on fire. It may be police procedure, but it seems counter-intuitive especially given the injuries to Dr Petit, arguably the biggest threat to them in that house.

JMVHO. I think the victims were incredibly brave-personally I believe that whatever they were doing kept them alive for hours, vs the less than 30 minutes (IIRC) that went by from the arrival of the police to the murder of the family.

From what I have read the police did not know before hand what if any kind of weapons the intruders had and from what I took from the Hayes confession is the reason they left in a hurry is as JK was spreading the gas he went to the basement and discoverd Dr. Petit had escaped. I don't believe they knew a police perimeter and road block had been set up.

Cher352
09-27-2010, 07:39 PM
Komisarjevsky attorney called into court for contempt hearing (http://http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-komisarjevsky-attorney-contempt-hearing-0927,0,1209537.story)

AH HA...Jerk!

Thanks but that link would not work for me, I found the article though:


The Hartford Courant
12:25 p.m. EDT, September 27, 2010

NEW HAVEN — Jeremiah Donovan, one of the attorneys representing Joshua Komisarjevsky in the Cheshire triple-homicide case, has been ordered to court to explain why he shouldn't face criminal contempt proceedings for discussing the case in public.

http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-komisarjevsky-attorney-contempt-hearing-0927,0,1209537.story


Wonder when he has to go to court, the article didn't say?? :waitasec:

Cher352
09-27-2010, 08:00 PM
Found the date at another site.....Oct 6th.

The article also has a pdf copy file of the order issued by the courts for the lawyer to appear and show cause why they should not initiated criminal contempt charges against him. :woohoo:


Komisarjevsky's Attorney Called To Contempt HearingAttorney To Prove He Didn't Violate Gag Order

POSTED: 12:07 pm EDT September 27, 2010
UPDATED: 7:17 pm EDT September 27, 2010

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- The attorney for Cheshire home invasion suspect Joshua Komisarjevsky has been ordered to appear at a contempt hearing on Oct. 6.

Attorney Jeremiah Donovan was ordered by the court to appear at the hearing to show why he should not be held in contempt for violating a gag order in the case. (cont.)

http://www.wfsb.com/news/25178343/detail.html

jjenny
09-27-2010, 09:13 PM
From what I have read the police did not know before hand what if any kind of weapons the intruders had and from what I took from the Hayes confession is the reason they left in a hurry is as JK was spreading the gas he went to the basement and discoverd Dr. Petit had escaped. I don't believe they knew a police perimeter and road block had been set up.

Police have not contacted anyone at the home and thus I am also pretty sure the suspects had no idea police have set up a perimeter.

believe09
09-27-2010, 09:28 PM
I thought they could see them from the house? The perps could see the police that is. I have been receiving my data from local news coverage in Boston, so perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick so to speak.

So the facts of the case are that after Mrs. Petit left the bank saying that her family would be killed if they did not cooperate, the bank employee called 911-but included in her call that Mrs. Petit said the perps were polite? So no one, not even the neighbor who called on behalf of Dr Petit discussed weapons? Or How many perps were in the house and how long they had been there?

Huh. The local media here made it seem as if the police set up a perimeter in view of the house and opted not to enter. The perps crashed into one of the roadblocks in the family's SUV and by then the fire was too hot for anyone to enter the home.

JulieR
09-27-2010, 09:36 PM
I will say it doesn't appeal to me either. I have been a member here for a while and this is really the first trial or case I have followed that I feel I have been attacked for having an opinion. I've tried to post as little as possible because it is very tiring taking up for yourself and explaining over and over what you meant and what you didn't.

I'll second that one.........I totally agree. Ever feel like your being picked on. LOL

shefner
09-27-2010, 09:52 PM
I thought they could see them from the house? The perps could see the police that is. I have been receiving my data from local news coverage in Boston, so perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick so to speak.

So the facts of the case are that after Mrs. Petit left the bank saying that her family would be killed if they did not cooperate, the bank employee called 911-but included in her call that Mrs. Petit said the perps were polite? So no one, not even the neighbor who called on behalf of Dr Petit discussed weapons? Or How many perps were in the house and how long they had been there?

Huh. The local media here made it seem as if the police set up a perimeter in view of the house and opted not to enter. The perps crashed into one of the roadblocks in the family's SUV and by then the fire was too hot for anyone to enter the home.



The bank manager called police before Mrs. Petit got the money....but after she received the money, she left the bank while the manager was still on the phone with LE. This is what seems so frustrating to me. If the police could have just asked the manager to keep Mrs. Petit at the bank until they could arrive, they could have surrounded Hayes in the victim's vehicle.
I think Mrs. Petit did exactly what she thought she had to do in order to help her girls. I think she was also in shock. What a brave mom....just wish it had all turned out differently. Bless them....

jjenny
09-27-2010, 09:53 PM
I thought they could see them from the house? The perps could see the police that is. I have been receiving my data from local news coverage in Boston, so perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick so to speak.

So the facts of the case are that after Mrs. Petit left the bank saying that her family would be killed if they did not cooperate, the bank employee called 911-but included in her call that Mrs. Petit said the perps were polite? So no one, not even the neighbor who called on behalf of Dr Petit discussed weapons? Or How many perps were in the house and how long they had been there?

Huh. The local media here made it seem as if the police set up a perimeter in view of the house and opted not to enter. The perps crashed into one of the roadblocks in the family's SUV and by then the fire was too hot for anyone to enter the home.

No the suspects could not see police from the house. The perimeter was set by unmarked cars. Nobody in the house was contacted by the police.
This article gives good time line of police response and how the suspects tried to escape. The suspects had no idea police were around.
"Under cross-examination, Vignola said no officers went to the front door of the home shortly after the police call. Vignola said he advised police not to enter until a better perimeter was set up."
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-home-invasion-trial-day3,0,578511.story?page=3

JBean
09-27-2010, 11:24 PM
I will say it doesn't appeal to me either. I have been a member here for a while and this is really the first trial or case I have followed that I feel I have been attacked for having an opinion. I've tried to post as little as possible because it is very tiring taking up for yourself and explaining over and over what you meant and what you didn't.
Be sure to alert if you feel attacked as it is just not allowed here. We want members to feel comfortable posting here; not fearful of being attacked for their opinion.
Mods do not read all the posts in the forum and we rely on members to alert us when there is something that is not cool.

Also, do not respond to any offending post, because if that happens we need to give both parties a TO. It is mod discretion as to whether both or neither get timed out.

To alert, please click the little red and white triangle in the upper right hand corner of an offending post. A text box will pop up and you can explain why you think the post is offensive. We need your help.
Thanks.

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 03:53 AM
Be sure to alert if you feel attacked as it is just not allowed here. We want members to feel comfortable posting here; not fearful of being attacked for their opinion.
Mods do not read all the posts in the forum and we rely on members to alert us when there is something that is not cool.

Also, do not respond to any offending post, because if that happens we need to give both parties a TO. It is mod discretion as to whether both or neither get timed out.

To alert, please click the little red and white triangle in the upper right hand corner of an offending post. A text box will pop up and you can explain why you think the post is offensive. We need your help.
Thanks.


Just so you know I don't think it's the kind of meaness that needs to be reported. Just not used to the critiziing and picking apart every word that is said.

robinparten
09-28-2010, 08:32 AM
Yesterday, I caught a bit of Court TV and they were interviewing Ms. Petit's sister. They asked her to describe her nieces, and she made a heartbreaking comment about Michaela. She said that Michaela always had a fear of men, since she was very young. You could tell it was really upsetting for her to know that Michaela had such a fear of men, and for her to die so horribly at the hands of two men, and to be still a child, was just heartbreaking.

This case haunts me.

Cher352
09-28-2010, 08:42 AM
Media lining up to get into the courtroom. Court starts at 10:00 a.m. I think.

You can view real time tweets, from inside the courthouse on the Hartford Courant's website:

http://blogs.courant.com/helen_ubinas/

Interesting one so far:

nhregister: This case continues to attract national media attention. Journalists from ABC and CBS News "48 Hours" in line with me this morning.

Native New Yorker
09-28-2010, 08:53 AM
I am dreading the next trial, primarily because much of the testimony will focus on what Michaela endured, as she was the focus of JK during his hours in the home, some of them alone, while SH was at the bank with Mrs. Petit.

We know about the pictures, but I am sure more heartbreaking information will come out. I know that the monster made her shower...I just cannot wrap my mind around what he did to her...
and so sad to hear that she had ( premonitions?) fears that actually came true.

For poor Dr. Petit to hear what his baby endured, while he was in the same house, yet helpless....just awful.
Mark my words, JK was the most depraved of these two.

dgfred
09-28-2010, 10:38 AM
No the suspects could not see police from the house. The perimeter was set by unmarked cars. Nobody in the house was contacted by the police.
This article gives good time line of police response and how the suspects tried to escape. The suspects had no idea police were around.
"Under cross-examination, Vignola said no officers went to the front door of the home shortly after the police call. Vignola said he advised police not to enter until a better perimeter was set up."
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-home-invasion-trial-day3,0,578511.story?page=3

Plus the roadblock was about 2 blocks from the home.

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 11:25 AM
Fire was so quick it blocked exits and entryways. Too bad JK and Hayes got out...now that would have been justice.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 11:35 AM
My understanding from the tweets from teh courtroom is that the fire investigator says the fire started downstairs int he family room where the mother was. She was on some sort of furniture. The fire travelled up the stairs to the girls bedrooms. Now, if i remember correct, Haley was able to get up becausse the nylons she was tied with melted. But unfortunatlely for her, by the time the fire got to her room to melt those nylons, the escape route (the stairs) was already engulfed in flame. Never had a chance.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 11:44 AM
"Hayes reenters, he is clutching arms across body and shaking. #Hayes" This tweet from the courtroom.
Good Lord! What now!

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 11:56 AM
"Hayes reenters, he is clutching arms across body and shaking. #Hayes" This tweet from the courtroom.
Good Lord! What now!


There may be something really wrong with him but my cynical self thinks it's for sympathy.

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 12:15 PM
Ullmann has a tough job defending Hayes. How can you make someone like him appear more human? You can pick apart testimony, you can blame it on the police taking their time. But Ullmann can never make Hayes out to be any more than he is, a monster.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 12:28 PM
Ullmann has a tough job defending Hayes. How can you make someone like him appear more human? You can pick apart testimony, you can blame it on the police taking their time. But Ullmann can never make Hayes out to be any more than he is, a monster.

I agree, very tough defense case. Even the old defense of pointing the finger at each other has limited effect here since both have overwhelming evidence of their own acts. The texts before the crime show that Hayes was chomping at the bit, not an unwilling participant. He was the one that went to the bank, he was teh one that raped/strangled Mrs Petit, he was the one seen running out of the house laughing.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 12:37 PM
I agree, very tough defense case. Even the old defense of pointing the finger at each other has limited effect here since both have overwhelming evidence of their own acts. The texts before the crime show that Hayes was chomping at the bit, not an unwilling participant. He was the one that went to the bank, he was teh one that raped/strangled Mrs Petit, he was the one seen running out of the house laughing.

Bottom line he's the one that bought the gas.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 12:44 PM
"Bottom line he's the one that bought the gas. "
Oh yes. I forgot to include that. Who spread it around the house, and who actually ignited it is really irrelevent. Although in closing argument be prepared to have the defense atty harp on the fact that there was no evidece of who did those things.

gxm
09-28-2010, 12:54 PM
"Bottom line he's the one that bought the gas. "
Oh yes. I forgot to include that. Who spread it around the house, and who actually ignited it is really irrelevent. Although in closing argument be prepared to have the defense atty harp on the fact that there was no evidece of who did those things.

The witness (Jack Hubball) on the stand right now is saying there was gas on JK's clothing and shoes. So if Hayes bought the gas, then that means JK had to come in contact with it afterward, presumably while dousing the house.

The evidence presented in this trial leads me to believe that this was all planned from the start. The robbery was planned, the sexual assaults were planned and the horrifically cruel murder of a man's entire family was planned.

ETA: Hubball says there was gas on SH's clothing too. Both of these monsters set the fire.

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 12:54 PM
Both Jk and Hayes clothes had gas on them, I believe they both poured the gas.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 01:00 PM
There was gas found on both of their clothing and IIRC there was a 2-3 containers of gas so I believe they both poured the gas one upstairs and one poured down stairs. I say the last one out is the one that through the match (JMO). Either way they both deserve what's coming to them.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 01:07 PM
gxm, initially i assumed that Hayes statement "it just got out of control" was probably true. That they had just intended to burglarize the home. But as this trial has gone on i've changed my mind. Certainly from JK's interest in girls he probably had intended to molest teh girl and that was part of the reason this house/family was targeted. And I increasinly think that they inteded to murder the family all along, or at least very early on in the invasion that plan was formulated.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 01:31 PM
JMO I think once they realized there was much more money in the checking account and they were going to need Jennifer to go to the bank.........things changed. It seems at first they put pillow cases over the girls heads in order that they couldn't id them. Once the idea came to mind of going to the bank they knew they would have to get rid of any witnesses. Even though JK had a fixation on the younger daughter he didn't seem to take action till the father was in the basement and the mother was out of the house. JK puzzles me because here is a man that beats the poor Dr. with a bat, then hours later takes him down to the basement and places cushions under him? Another thing that puzzles me is Jennifer saying they were being polite at the bank, which they most likely were so what made Hayes become angry at her. I wonder if when he started to rape her (I hate even typing this) if she didn't tell him: I told the girls at the bank, and the police will be here soon is that's when he strangles her. He could have just left her to die in the fire, something set him off. Just thinking with my fingers.
OOO one other thing is when they pulled JK out of the SUV didn't he still have gloves on? Which leads me to believe at first they were just going to rob the house.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 01:41 PM
You could be right Julie about the plan changing when they found the bank books. But i'm not sure about the girl. He certainl could have been molesting her long before Hayes took the mother to the bank. The cushion thing is a mystery. But here is a theory: they put Dr. Petit in the basement to keep him seperate from the women so they wouldnt see him. They may have thought he was going to die anyway since he was bleeding so badly. But later when the decided to burn the home, they realized that the fire may not reach the basement. So they put cusions under him so they could soak them in gas to ensure he burned. Then as they got ready, when JK went down to put gas on him, he found him gone. Just a thought.
I've wondered about why the motehr was strangled too. That does appear to be an impulsive act. YOu could be right that she told him about the teller.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 01:46 PM
As for JK wearing gloves, he was still probably worried about fingerprints even if they were setting the fire. He would know that many portions of the house would likely not burn, ie doorknobs, etc., and he was driving the petit van, so he would not want to leave prints there since they were probably planning to abandon it when they switched to the pick up truck

JulieR
09-28-2010, 02:07 PM
I do think Jennifer would have known if she was being molested before going to the bank. I could be wrong but houses these days aren't sound proof and it would have been hard not to hear something. Never thought about putting gas on the cushions, could be. IIRC Dr. was moved to basement when Hayes went for gas my take was they didn't want Jennifer to see him, knowing she would have to come down stairs to go to the bank. I was sad to read that MP still had the pillow case on her head when they found her, but I guess in a way she didn't see what was happening, still don't make it any easier it's just so sad.
I think maybe JK was just taking extra caution, like when he had MP shower he knew at that time he was going to set the house on fire so why bother, but in the end it didn't help him. I will never wrap my brain around how anyone could be so cruel. Even now as much as I want these two to get death because they so deserve it: If someone told me I could light the match and see these two die the same way, I couldn't do it. Be really cool if they let the Dr. do it.

Cher352
09-28-2010, 02:14 PM
You could be right Julie about the plan changing when they found the bank books. But i'm not sure about the girl. He certainly could have been molesting her long before Hayes took the mother to the bank. The cushion thing is a mystery. But here is a theory: they put Dr. Petit in the basement to keep him separate from the women so they wouldnt see him. They may have thought he was going to die anyway since he was bleeding so badly. But later when the decided to burn the home, they realized that the fire may not reach the basement. So they put cushions under him so they could soak them in gas to ensure he burned. Then as they got ready, when JK went down to put gas on him, he found him gone. Just a thought.
I've wondered about why the mother was strangled too. That does appear to be an impulsive act. YOu could be right that she told him about the teller.

This may be dumb but could Hayes have not wanted her to die by being burned alive? Nah, that wouldn't make sense would it?

hollyjokers
09-28-2010, 02:28 PM
Sounds like JK poured bleach on Michaela's shorts too. Defense is bringing this out from questioning Hubball, wonder why.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Sounds like JK poured bleach on Michaela's shorts too. Defense is bringing this out from questioning Hubball, wonder why.

Maybe he was scared he left some DNA on them.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 02:52 PM
#Hayes told other inmate that he had tied him up too tight. Hayes suggested conspiracy between Dr. Petit and Komisarjevsky.


Gezzz I feel sorry for Dr. Petit having to hear this crap.

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 02:58 PM
It seems Hayes wasn't worried about a murder charge but was worried about an arson charge. He didn't think he could be charged since he just poured the gas (from twitter). Knob saying that he overheard Hayes say when they saw the police, JK told him he had to get rid of Mrs. Petit. I was under the impression that they never knew the police were outside.

MCDRAW
09-28-2010, 03:07 PM
anyone else having trouble with twitter?

JulieR
09-28-2010, 03:11 PM
It seems Hayes wasn't worried about a murder charge but was worried about an arson charge. He didn't think he could be charged since he just poured the gas (from twitter). Knob saying that he overheard Hayes say when they saw the police, JK told him he had to get rid of Mrs. Petit. I was under the impression that they never knew the police were outside.

I don't think they knew the police were out there or they wouldn't have come out...it would have turned into a talking/negotiating hostage situation. I think this is just after the fact trying to save your A$$ talk from Hayes.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 03:12 PM
anyone else having trouble with twitter?

I was, try refreshing the page.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 03:15 PM
Thats the first i've heard that they were aware of the police presence. It doesnt really make sense though. If they knew the pollice were there, why start killing people. At that point they wouldu have only had burglary, kidnapping charge, why take it to a whole new level knowing you wont get away? As for the idea that Hayes believed the Dr. was in on it, that doesnt make sense either. Why would he consent to being beaten with a ball bat? If JK and the Dr. were in on it, wouldnt JK have tied up the doctor instead of Hayes? Why would they go to the bank at all? No, that story about Dr. Petit being involved just doesnt fit the facts.

hollyjokers
09-28-2010, 03:38 PM
Maybe he was scared he left some DNA on them.

I meant I wonder why the defense made a point about bringing up the bleach on cross examination. How would that help Hayes?

JulieR
09-28-2010, 03:43 PM
I meant I wonder why the defense made a point about bringing up the bleach on cross examination. How would that help Hayes?

OOO LOL, your right no idea how that would help Hayes.

Cher352
09-28-2010, 03:50 PM
Thats the first i've heard that they were aware of the police presence. It doesnt really make sense though. If they knew the pollice were there, why start killing people. At that point they wouldu have only had burglary, kidnapping charge, why take it to a whole new level knowing you wont get away? As for the idea that Hayes believed the Dr. was in on it, that doesnt make sense either. Why would he consent to being beaten with a ball bat? If JK and the Dr. were in on it, wouldnt JK have tied up the doctor instead of Hayes? Why would they go to the bank at all? No, that story about Dr. Petit being involved just doesnt fit the facts.

Would have to agree, if they knew the police were there it would have gone into a hostage situation. Probably just trying to make himself look smart to the other inmate, like yeah we knew the cops were there.

hollyjokers
09-28-2010, 04:02 PM
It is absolutely haunting to try and imagine what Michaela Petit went through. I agree with Native New Yorker that trial #2 is going to be even harder to deal with when more of those details come out.

JK probably recognized Hayley would have been capable of kicking his ass so he didn't mess with her.

gxm
09-28-2010, 04:15 PM
I meant I wonder why the defense made a point about bringing up the bleach on cross examination. How would that help Hayes?

I think they are trying to make JK out to be the depraved instigator who raped a child. IMO they are going for a lesser of two evils defense. Before the trial began, I must admit that I thought SH was the follower, but after hearing the evidence I now believe he is just as depraved and sick as JK. Anyone who could set fire to living, conscious children is a very sick animal. And SH is just as guilty as JK.

FWIW, I think the reason he killed Hawke-Petit is because he was about to start pouring gas and he knew that once she realized her children were in danger that she would begin to fight back. The mother was only cooperating because she thought her family would make it out of that horrific situation alive. The minute she saw the gas, she would have gone into fight back mode.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 04:18 PM
So, accordign to the prison worker's description of Hayes' conversation, JK did indeed anally rape Michaela. I wonder if the DA could convnce him to testify at JK's trial. Probably not.

JulieR
09-28-2010, 04:28 PM
So, accordign to the prison worker's description of Hayes' conversation, JK did indeed anally rape Michaela. I wonder if the DA could convnce him to testify at JK's trial. Probably not.

IIRC there was no trauma to that area on MP but they did find enzymes for sperm. Pretty sure SH will not be at the JK trial heck you can't believe either one. We just have to rely on the evidence.

Boytwnmom
09-28-2010, 04:56 PM
she didn't try to escape, got the money, did as she was told and they were all killed. I think the OP's point is they ARE going to kill you and so do whatever you can to foul it up. I'm sure the mother thought if she cooperated it would be OK and I'm sure she was totally scared about her daughters back at the house but ultimately her cooperation didn't help at all.

So, I agree, don't cooperate. I wouldn't have left the bank. I would have had the police go to the house-there was only one bad guy still there. I know hindsight is 20-20 and I hardly blame the victims but if anything, future potential victims CAN learn from these heinous crimes and realize that these types of criminals are planning to kill you so you might as well take your best shot.




Nothing to lose? What about the children? The mother clearly could have escaped while at the bank, but since her daughters were held hostage, she obviously didn't try.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 05:10 PM
I understand the defense has rested. Is that correct?

Cher352
09-28-2010, 05:13 PM
Defense's case only took only 30 min...wonder it took even that as there is no defense for what was done.

Per Judge two days off for jury, closing arguments on Friday, deliberations Monday.

Cher352
09-28-2010, 05:15 PM
Petit and Hawke families just spoke outside of courthouse @wtnh and @erincox8 will have their reaction at 6pm.

believe09
09-28-2010, 05:23 PM
I don't think they knew the police were out there or they wouldn't have come out...it would have turned into a talking/negotiating hostage situation. I think this is just after the fact trying to save your A$$ talk from Hayes.

See, I have to disagree. They were hell bent on destruction. By then they had poured the gas and bleached MP, and strangled Mrs. Petit. No going back-perhaps if PD had knocked on the door...well, now I am quarterbacking.

Good to know the Boston stations had at least part of the story right...

Cher352
09-28-2010, 05:29 PM
she didn't try to escape, got the money, did as she was told and they were all killed. I think the OP's point is they ARE going to kill you and so do whatever you can to foul it up. I'm sure the mother thought if she cooperated it would be OK and I'm sure she was totally scared about her daughters back at the house but ultimately her cooperation didn't help at all.

So, I agree, don't cooperate. I wouldn't have left the bank. I would have had the police go to the house-there was only one bad guy still there. I know hindsight is 20-20 and I hardly blame the victims but if anything, future potential victims CAN learn from these heinous crimes and realize that these types of criminals are planning to kill you so you might as well take your best shot.

I agree we can all learn but still wonder what would happen if ever in that type situation.

Everyone has always heard never to let a carjacker or attacker take you with them as you chances of survival are better if you don't but everyday people still do. If they are going to kill you make them do it in public where they may be seen versus out in some remote location. A lady that I work with did that, refused to go with a carjacker, she was pistol whipped pretty bad but at least she lived. And his attack her on in a public parking lot drew several eye witnesses.

Boytwnmom
09-28-2010, 05:38 PM
and the evidentiary restrictions of the use of confessions by one defendant against the other. It was especially sickening in the Channon Christian/Chris Newsom case where each defendant was able to blame the more heinous acts (not that everything they did wasn't heinous) on someone else not currently on trial. It seemd to work too with, for example, the rape/murder of Newsom not really being properly attirbuted as I recall the jury verdicts. This case and it's sick perpetrators remind me of that one.

I assume each here will try and pin the escalation on the other or try and minimize what occured...no rape just .... on the little girl...too sick to think about. I also once thought that perhaps it was something that got out of control but, like you, now think that there was never going to be an ending with the victims still alive. Whatever hate and rage drove these creatures was in palce at the time of the home invasion. Becasue, really, if you just want to burglerize rich people you would tend to do it when no one is home-you wouldn't break in AFTER you see the father on the couch and brutally beat him-no, they had something else planned.




I think they are trying to make JK out to be the depraved instigator who raped a child. IMO they are going for a lesser of two evils defense. Before the trial began, I must admit that I thought SH was the follower, but after hearing the evidence I now believe he is just as depraved and sick as JK. Anyone who could set fire to living, conscious children is a very sick animal. And SH is just as guilty as JK.

FWIW, I think the reason he killed Hawke-Petit is because he was about to start pouring gas and he knew that once she realized her children were in danger that she would begin to fight back. The mother was only cooperating because she thought her family would make it out of that horrific situation alive. The minute she saw the gas, she would have gone into fight back mode.

believe09
09-28-2010, 05:39 PM
Well, I wonder then at the statistics of people who are in the position of a violent home invasion that lived because they cooperated vs those who did because they did not. Or the flip side-who died while cooperating and who died while not cooperating.

I swear I will try and stop repeating myself after this post, but they were alive for hours after the break in-so something went right for them up until the point of no return for the perps. JMVHO.

Cher352
09-28-2010, 05:58 PM
Corrections Officer Says Hayes Admitted Killing Hawke-Petit; Testimony In Case Ends
Judge Says Jury Could Start Deliberating Monday
5:13 p.m. EDT, September 28, 2010

http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-steven-hayes-trial-day8-0928-20100928,0,2919189.story

Cher352
09-28-2010, 06:01 PM
Both Sides Rest In Cheshire Home Invasion Trial
Closing Arguments Expected This Week
POSTED: 7:48 am EDT September 28, 2010
UPDATED: 5:23 pm EDT September 28, 2010

<snip>

In court on Tuesday, Krob, who was in charge of monitoring Hayes, said when another inmate asked Hayes if he wondered if Dr. William Petit was in on it for the insurance money, Hayes said he believed it could be true. Krob said Hayes told the inmate he personally tied Petit to the pole and there was no way he could have gotten loose unless Komisarjevsky helped to loosen the knots.

http://www.wfsb.com/cheshirecase/25190188/detail.html

hollyjokers
09-28-2010, 06:05 PM
Well, I wonder then at the statistics of people who are in the position of a violent home invasion that lived because they cooperated vs those who did because they did not. Or the flip side-who died while cooperating and who died while not cooperating.

I swear I will try and stop repeating myself after this post, but they were alive for hours after the break in-so something went right for them up until the point of no return for the perps. JMVHO.

They kept them alive (and seemingly well-treated) until the bank opened.

PrairieWind
09-28-2010, 06:10 PM
boytwnmom, i agree about the Channon Christian trials. Those defendants all pointed the finger at each other and the jurys to some degree bought it. The atrocities to Newsom for example were really never attributed to anyone. But this is a different story in this case. First, there are only 2 defendants, so a lot less people to spread blame around on. Second, there is a mountian of good evidence against both.

jjenny
09-28-2010, 07:51 PM
They kept them alive (and seemingly well-treated) until the bank opened.

Exactly. I think it's pretty clear they needed the mother alive to go to the bank, and they needed the children alive to hold as hostages otherwise mother wouldn't cooperate.

jjenny
09-28-2010, 07:55 PM
Both Sides Rest In Cheshire Home Invasion Trial
Closing Arguments Expected This Week
POSTED: 7:48 am EDT September 28, 2010
UPDATED: 5:23 pm EDT September 28, 2010

<snip>

In court on Tuesday, Krob, who was in charge of monitoring Hayes, said when another inmate asked Hayes if he wondered if Dr. William Petit was in on it for the insurance money, Hayes said he believed it could be true. Krob said Hayes told the inmate he personally tied Petit to the pole and there was no way he could have gotten loose unless Komisarjevsky helped to loosen the knots.

http://www.wfsb.com/cheshirecase/25190188/detail.html

Hayes also denied raping the mother, my guess is because other inmates supposedly don't like rapists. Too bad for him there is DNA evidence.

Native New Yorker
09-28-2010, 07:57 PM
I do not believe that for one minute that they were fine until the bank opened! Hayley and Michaela, IIRC were both raped pretty early on...remember the pix on the cell phone, that JK took showing how aroused he was just before they went into the house?
NO WAY he waited peacefully until the mom was out of the house, out of consideration for her feelings!
What could she do, she was tied up? No, she knew her daughters were being raped, but thought at least she could save them from being KILLED.

jjenny
09-28-2010, 07:57 PM
I understand the defense has rested. Is that correct?

Doesn't seem like there is much they can defend him with.
What are they gonna say in face of all the evidence?
Except try to blame everyone else? Police didn't stop him, JK was in charge, blah, blah, blah...

jjenny
09-28-2010, 08:00 PM
I do not believe that for one minute that they were fine until the bank opened! Hayley and Michaela, IIRC were both raped pretty early on...remember the pix on the cell phone, that JK took showing how aroused he was just before they went into the house?
NO WAY he waited peacefully until the mom was out of the house, out of consideration for her feelings!
What could she do, she was tied up? No, she knew her daughters were being raped, but thought at least she could save them from being KILLED.

There's been no suggestions that Hayley was raped.
As for Michaela, the mother might have not known what went on. She was tied up in a different room.
I just don't think the mother would believe the perps wouldn't harm anyone if she knew.

jjenny
09-28-2010, 08:09 PM
Thats the first i've heard that they were aware of the police presence. It doesnt really make sense though. If they knew the pollice were there, why start killing people. At that point they wouldu have only had burglary, kidnapping charge, why take it to a whole new level knowing you wont get away? As for the idea that Hayes believed the Dr. was in on it, that doesnt make sense either. Why would he consent to being beaten with a ball bat? If JK and the Dr. were in on it, wouldnt JK have tied up the doctor instead of Hayes? Why would they go to the bank at all? No, that story about Dr. Petit being involved just doesnt fit the facts.

I agree much of what Hayes told the inmate doesn't make sense. If he knew police were outside, why would he kill the mother? He'd have to know he wouldn't be able to escape if police were outside. So why would he kill the mother? So he can face the death penalty trial? Somehow I doubt that is what he wanted. As for Dr. Petit, Dr. Petit lost 5-7 pints of blood, which is ~ 60 % of blood in the body, so he easily could have died. But why would anyone expect Hayes to be truthful with the other inmate anyway?

William N
09-28-2010, 09:08 PM
boytwnmom, i agree about the Channon Christian trials. Those defendants all pointed the finger at each other and the jurys to some degree bought it. The atrocities to Newsom for example were really never attributed to anyone. But this is a different story in this case. First, there are only 2 defendants, so a lot less people to spread blame around on. Second, there is a mountian of good evidence against both.

Good post. As I have said before, I wrote about the Christian-Newsom trials at Trials & Tribulations and attended 3 days of Vanessa Coleman's trial and the sentencing hearings for Davidson and Coleman.

Four suspects made it easier for them to blame the others. In their police interviews all of them were extremely vague. Not only did they claim to have done nothing, they didn't even SEE anything (especially Chris Newsom). One, Cobbins, took the stand and said Channon Christian "offered me sex."

Hayes and Komisarjevsky admitted to a lot. Hayes' attorneys even acknowledge their client raped and strangled Ms Hawke-Petit. The defense can't shift the blame in these trials despite the severance.

David In TN

jilly
09-28-2010, 10:54 PM
So, accordign to the prison worker's description of Hayes' conversation, JK did indeed anally rape Michaela. I wonder if the DA could convnce him to testify at JK's trial. Probably not.

I think that entire 'conversation' will be disregarded by the jury. In it, Hayes also said that he didn't rape anyone. The evidence at trial said otherwise.

I have faith the jury will see Hayes for who he is. Amongst many despicable things - a liar.

Cher352
09-29-2010, 12:47 AM
There's been no suggestions that Hayley was raped.
As for Michaela, the mother might have not known what went on. She was tied up in a different room.
I just don't think the mother would believe the perps wouldn't harm anyone if she knew.

I didn't think that had any proof of Hayley being raped but I wonder if maybe she was but for some reason they could find the evidence to make that claim. The reason I say this is there was one (or was it two?) photos of her nude private region on JK's cell according to the trial tweets. Not sure what was up with that.

Native New Yorker
09-29-2010, 12:50 AM
There's been no suggestions that Hayley was raped.
As for Michaela, the mother might have not known what went on. She was tied up in a different room.
I just don't think the mother would believe the perps wouldn't harm anyone if she knew.


I know I read this recently, will have to search for the quote, too tired tonight....

I think that the mother just said that at the bank, to go along with their plan, hoping that if she cooperated that her girls would not be hurt any further.

We have been given no information as to the layout of the house, regarding proximity of bedrooms, so I cannot speculate as to what the mother could or could not hear from the time the monsters first attacked, to when they took her to the bank.

As to why she was strangled, I think that when she came back from the bank, she would have smelled the gasoline, and begun to fight in desperation...that is why she was raped and killed....

I have read every single article on this case, from the time it first happened, and have a very strong sense of how the events transpired.
Of course, I could be wrong, but so far all the testimony has gone along with the way I felt it happened...

Cher352
09-29-2010, 12:55 AM
Looks like a new set of evidence photos as least I had not seen them. In them are several pictures of the red shorts. The bleach stains were very large and had completely turned them white. That must have been torture in it self to have that much bleach poured on the poor child.

Slide show of photos titled "Final Exhibits" on the left side of this page:

http://www.wfsb.com/cheshirecase/index.html

jjenny
09-29-2010, 01:00 AM
My guess is the mother was killed because they did not want to leave the witness alive. The girls had pillowcases on their heads so they might have not gotten a good look at the perps at all. The father was beat up when he was asleep so he did not get a good look at either. But the mother would have seen the perp's face when she was taken to the bank (I am guessing he was not wearing a face mask while out in the car), and could have seen both of their faces when they were convincing her to get the money from the bank so she could ID at least one of the perps and maybe both. So they might have been wanting to be really sure she was dead.

Cher352
09-29-2010, 01:30 AM
Video of Dr Petit and Rev Hawke's response to today's testimony by prison guard that said he heard Hayes tell another inmate he thought Dr. Petit might have been in on it for insurance money.

http://www.necn.com/09/28/10/Stunning-claim-in-Conn-home-invasion-cas/landing_newengland.html?blockID=320347&feedID=4206

If that statement was really believed by Hayes then it must be that Hayes thinks all people are as twisted as he is.

PrairieWind
09-29-2010, 01:55 AM
I didn't think that had any proof of Hayley being raped but I wonder if maybe she was but for some reason they could find the evidence to make that claim. The reason I say this is there was one (or was it two?) photos of her nude private region on JK's cell according to the trial tweets. Not sure what was up with that.

I think that Haley was certainly sexually assaulted in some way. By definition, the photos would support that. There are other ways she coudl have been assaulted that would have left no evidence or trauma; I need not go into detail.

steelergirl
09-29-2010, 10:04 AM
I think that Haley was certainly sexually assaulted in some way. By definition, the photos would support that. There are other ways she coudl have been assaulted that would have left no evidence or trauma; I need not go into detail.

As sad as I am to say this, I always wondered if maybe Haley's burns made it so that the ME couldn't see/tell if she was assaulted. Maybe the fire, and her burns on her body covered the trauma?

This case is almost too much to handle, and there are a lot of similarities to the Christian/Newsome case.

Native New Yorker
09-29-2010, 10:24 AM
My guess is the mother was killed because they did not want to leave the witness alive. The girls had pillowcases on their heads so they might have not gotten a good look at the perps at all. The father was beat up when he was asleep so he did not get a good look at either. But the mother would have seen the perp's face when she was taken to the bank (I am guessing he was not wearing a face mask while out in the car), and could have seen both of their faces when they were convincing her to get the money from the bank so she could ID at least one of the perps and maybe both. So they might have been wanting to be really sure she was dead.
No, Michaela was untied at one point, and forced to take a shower, and I am sure she saw her assailant. I think the pillowcase over the face was just a control method. I think these guys knew from the beginning that they would burn the place down.

robinparten
09-29-2010, 10:34 AM
Dumb question - how long did this whole incident go on? What time did they break into the house?

joypath
09-29-2010, 10:40 AM
I think that Haley was certainly sexually assaulted in some way. By definition, the photos would support that. There are other ways she could have been assaulted that would have left no evidence or trauma; I need not go into detail.


All specimens taken within the sexual assault kit tested negative: oral, anal, and vaginal. Additional swabbing of surface tissue near/around the genitalia is tested routinely when such results are obtained and the victim is a minor. If there were any type of manual manipulation that did cause tissue damage/redness/"pre-mortem irritation", it would have been noted on the post report as a body condition but attributiing it to the perp would be difficult unless foreign DNA were present. (now I'm choosing not to elaborate)

:twocents:Perhaps the :loser:perp:loser: had the mindset that submission of this victim by restraint would be enough for the moment vs his physical assault upon her sister as a smaller target.:furious: BLEECH, just thinking the words to type them are disgusting! I'm eternally grateful that I deal with the facts of cases vs the "whys/wherefores" because I can NOT comprehend the criminal mind!:banghead:

joypath
09-29-2010, 10:42 AM
As sad as I am to say this, I always wondered if maybe Haley's burns made it so that the ME couldn't see/tell if she was assaulted. Maybe the fire, and her burns on her body covered the trauma?

This case is almost too much to handle, and there are a lot of similarities to the Christian/Newsome case.


"if maybe Haley's burns made it so that the ME couldn't see/tell if she was assaulted. Maybe the fire, and her burns on her body covered the trauma"........Short Answer: NOPE

joypath
09-29-2010, 10:48 AM
Dumb question - how long did this whole incident go on? What time did they break into the house?



From the perp himself: "sometime after 2:oo am" The first one into the home was Joshua who nicely opened the the porch door for Steven!

Native New Yorker
09-29-2010, 10:56 AM
Just a correction, guys, the name of the older daughter was Hayley, not Haley.....

PrairieWind
09-29-2010, 10:59 AM
Joypath, good infor there. But my issue is that there could have been forms of sexual assault that would not leave trauma nor DNA. I hate to be graphic, but the perp could have fondled or engaged in oral sexual assualt, even for just a brief amount of time. I get concnered that in todays "CSI" world, jurors will think that if there is no trauma nor dna, then the assault must not have occurred. It would seem to me that if they took the time and effort to photograph Haley nude like that, it most likely went further than that. I dont mean to be insensitive with this kind of "thinking out loud."

jjenny
09-29-2010, 11:39 AM
No, Michaela was untied at one point, and forced to take a shower, and I am sure she saw her assailant. I think the pillowcase over the face was just a control method. I think these guys knew from the beginning that they would burn the place down.

It was reported that the suspects had face masks, so Michaela might have never seen his face if the suspect kept his mask on.
While it is extremely unlikely that the suspect who took the mother to the bank would keep the face mask on. The bank teller who took a look didn't describe him as having a face mask on, just the hooded sweatshirt. I don't think from the beginning they decided to kill them, only after they found very little money in the house, and decided that mother would have to go to the bank to withdraw the money. At this time the mother would have seen the face of at least one of them,and would be able to recognize/identify at least the one who took her to the bank. As proof, they did not bring the gasoline with them, but one of them went to buy gasoline some time after the invasion.
That would suggest to me this plan was not formed from the beginning, but some time after the invasion.

Native New Yorker
09-29-2010, 11:46 AM
Really, seriously, HOW do you break into a house, beat someone senseless, rape and pillage, and then just walk away...
no, I disagree....I do not think they ever had an exit plan that would have ended well for this family...and I do not think the masks were kept on, though I could be wrong...
a real pain to keep them on for 6 + hours, and once they achieved control, no need to have them on...

joypath
09-29-2010, 11:46 AM
Joypath, good info there. But my issue is that there could have been forms of sexual assault that would not leave trauma nor DNA. I hate to be graphic, but the perp could have fondled or engaged in oral sexual assault, even for just a brief amount of time. I get concnered that in todays "CSI" world, jurors will think that if there is no trauma nor dna, then the assault must not have occurred. It would seem to me that if they took the time and effort to photograph Haley nude like that, it most likely went further than that. I dont mean to be insensitive with this kind of "thinking out loud."


Totally agree with your comments, mine is from the point of reference of the Medical Examiner's Office and the testimony as presented in court. As to the behaviors you've described, yep, they DO fall under the category of sexual misconduct and one would ASSUME performed (if they WERE) without consent and again, Hayley was considered a minor by virtue of age.
It will be extremely interesting to observe this scenario when the second trial commences, good ole JK's atty is swimming up stream (in my opinion) if he believes he can mitigate JK's behaviors to garner any "sympathy" of a jury or check that, "understanding from a jury".

jjenny
09-29-2010, 11:49 AM
Really, seriously, HOW do you break into a house, beat someone senseless, rape and pillage, and then just walk away...
no, I disagree....I do not think they ever had an exit plan that would have ended well for this family...and I do not think the masks were kept on, though I could be wrong...
a real pain to keep them on for 6 + hours, and once they achieved control, no need to have them on...

Did JK broke into homes before? Gone into the house, stole things, didn't kill the occupants?

PrairieWind
09-29-2010, 12:04 PM
Totally agree with your comments, mine is from the point of reference of the Medical Examiner's Office and the testimony as presented in court. As to the behaviors you've described, yep, they DO fall under the category of sexual misconduct and one would ASSUME performed (if they WERE) without consent and again, Hayley was considered a minor by virtue of age.
It will be extremely interesting to observe this scenario when the second trial commences, good ole JK's atty is swimming up stream (in my opinion) if he believes he can mitigate JK's behaviors to garner any "sympathy" of a jury or check that, "understanding from a jury".

JK's attorney will have a difficult talk in that trial. He has to deal with those photos on JK's camera somehow and the DNA evidence. I just dont know how he will try to tell the jury his story about "well he didnt really anally rape her" crap, despite the DNA in her, in a way that wont just further enrage the jury. I honestly can't think off the top of my head of a trial with this much absolutely conclusive evidence of so many horrific acts and felonies with virtually no defense.

jjenny
09-29-2010, 12:08 PM
JK's attorney will have a difficult talk in that trial. He has to deal with those photos on JK's camera somehow and the DNA evidence. I just dont know how he will try to tell the jury his story about "well he didnt really anally rape her" crap, despite the DNA in her, in a way that wont just further enrage the jury. I honestly can't think off the top of my head of a trial with this much absolutely conclusive evidence of so many horrific acts and felonies with virtually no defense.

Doesn't mean his lawyer won't try. I mean, the guy gave a press-conference saying JK didn't anally rape the little girl.
So I imagine this is the start of his defense strategy.

PrairieWind
09-29-2010, 12:15 PM
Doesn't mean his lawyer won't try. I mean, the guy gave a press-conference saying JK didn't anally rape the little girl.
So I imagine this is the start of his defense strategy.

Oh, I'm sure he'll try, and it will likely anger everyone. I am still shaking my head over that press conference he gave. That is just outrageous.

MCDRAW
09-29-2010, 12:33 PM
Did JK broke into homes before? Gone into the house, stole things, didn't kill the occupants?

Yes, but he would go in and steal and get out without waking anyone. The thrill for him was to get out undetected. That changed the day he saw Michaela. I believe. Once he attacked Dr. Petit, I don't think he ever intended to let them live.

hollyjokers
09-29-2010, 01:49 PM
There was an urgency for a big score for both of them this time. They both needed more than the standard dvd players, tv's, larceny stuff, AND they could not get caught. Then throw in JK's penchant for young girls. There never was a possibility of the scenario Hayes painted of the Petit's packed safely in their other car while only the house went up in flames.

gxm
09-29-2010, 01:50 PM
That outrageous press conference to "reassure" the family that MP wasn't anally raped defies logic. Perhaps JK's lawyer is trying to taint the jury pool. That's about the only thing that makes even a little sense.

JK's previous MO was to break into homes wearing night vision goggles so he could watch the owners as they slept. IIRC, at one of his previous convictions the judge pretty much said that he thought JK was a predator and at risk of escalating his sick behavior.

IMO, JK is a predatory voyeur and a control freak, and the ultimate control is over life and death. SH and JK not only planned this horrific crime, they enjoyed it and would have done it again and again if they hadn't been caught.

William N
09-29-2010, 02:55 PM
As sad as I am to say this, I always wondered if maybe Haley's burns made it so that the ME couldn't see/tell if she was assaulted. Maybe the fire, and her burns on her body covered the trauma?

This case is almost too much to handle, and there are a lot of similarities to the Christian/Newsome case.

Yes, Chris Newsom's body was set on fire after gasoline was poured on it. This destroyed the DNA evidence from his rape.

The killers came close to getting away with in the Christian-Newsome case. If the ringleader hadn't left his fingerprint in Channon Christian's SUV, it might be unsolved to this day. They might have had time to take Channon's body somewhere and set it on fire as well.

The criminal class has learned this tactic to remove DNA.

David In TN

PrairieWind
09-29-2010, 02:59 PM
William, I guess one difference is that Christopher Newsom was already dead when they set him on fire; they didnt use fire as the weapon. And I would say that most would agree that there are some that did get away with roles in those crimes. Still an awful lot of unanswered questions about that horrible incident.

JulieR
09-29-2010, 04:55 PM
Komisarjevsky's recollection of Mrs. Petit during that horrible night and morning is an account of the purest form of Christian strength. she tried to put herself in the shoes of the men who would ultimately kill her. she empathized with their financial predicaments. She said she never understood why God seemed to provide more for some than others. she prepared something for them to eat. she never lost composure. almost to her very last breath, Mrs. Petit held steady in her faith that God would deliver her family to safety. and, no doubt, that there was something salvageable in the souls of her captors.

As it turned out, Mrs. Petit was wrong on both counts. God did not deliver her family safely, and her attackers appear as soulless as human beings can be. and yet somehow Mrs. Petit's misjudgments only make her seem more Christian.

members of her church contend that Mrs. Petit signed an anti-death penalty document called A Declaration of Life. But a copy of that document has yet to surface. if there is a copy out there, withholding it dismisses a faith in God for which Jennifer Hawke-Petit lived and died.

http://www.brianmcdonald.info/blog.htm?month=2010-08 About half way down.

Wow I wonder if what JK said is true about Mrs. Petit, it really makes me want to cry. Have no idea what to think about the document, maybe he is just full of crap. I would never buy his book just because I don't think he should make money off the families pain, but I would love to read it.

PrairieWind
09-29-2010, 05:55 PM
Did JK tell McDonald that she did those things in his interview? Unreal.
As for the "declaration of life" there doesnt seem to be any evidence of it. Just the statements of some church members. What church was it, does anyone know? But these church members that have asseted she signed it may soon find themselves in a very awkard position. The defense may subpoena them to testify. Then they will find themselves inadvertantly defending these monsters and at odds with the Petit and Hawke families. But if i was the district atty, I would object to any discussion of such a delcaration it if the actual document is never found. Its clearly hearsay.

jilly
09-29-2010, 06:55 PM
Yes, Chris Newsom's body was set on fire after gasoline was poured on it. This destroyed the DNA evidence from his rape.

The killers came close to getting away with in the Christian-Newsome case. If the ringleader hadn't left his fingerprint in Channon Christian's SUV, it might be unsolved to this day. They might have had time to take Channon's body somewhere and set it on fire as well.

The criminal class has learned this tactic to remove DNA.

David In TN

Interesting because I've always thought that the plan to burn down the house was hatched after jk found out that Hayes had taken off his gloves and his prints were all over the house. He was pretty upset about that, as I recall.

It would be good to know what time that gas station opened that day. He didn't go there until 7am.

WellDone
09-29-2010, 07:09 PM
Interesting because I've always thought that the plan to burn down the house was hatched after jk found out that Hayes had taken off his gloves and his prints were all over the house. He was pretty upset about that, as I recall.

It would be good to know what time that gas station opened that day. He didn't go there until 7am.

BBM:

Was it 7am..... I thought it was 5am...??????

I apologize if I'm wrong, I'm looking now.... found it...

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/23/hayes%e2%80%99-confession/

The Gas

“Later in the morning sometime around 4-5:00am, he drove the family’s cream colored mini-van to a gas station in Southington…Hayes said that he took 2-3 milky colored plastic containers from the garage and filled them up with gas.”

jilly
09-29-2010, 07:29 PM
[/B]

BBM:

Was it 7am..... I thought it was 5am...??????

I apologize if I'm wrong, I'm looking now.... found it...

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/23/hayes%e2%80%99-confession/

The Gas

“Later in the morning sometime around 4-5:00am, he drove the family’s cream colored mini-van to a gas station in Southington…Hayes said that he took 2-3 milky colored plastic containers from the garage and filled them up with gas.”

I read 4 or 5am before too somewhere.

Video taken at 7:05 am.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/09/24/news/doc4c9c70c1b2ce1083569368.txt

WellDone
09-29-2010, 07:39 PM
I read 4 or 5am before too somewhere.

Video taken at 7:05 am.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/09/24/news/doc4c9c70c1b2ce1083569368.txt

BBM:


Hmmm... do you know that video states "GMT"...that's mountain time & 2 hours earlier than CT.... maybe that's why there's a 2 hour descrepency in reports?????????

jilly
09-29-2010, 07:43 PM
I read 4 or 5am before too somewhere.

Video taken at 7:05 am.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/09/24/news/doc4c9c70c1b2ce1083569368.txt

BBM:


Hmmm... do you know that video states "GMT"...that's mountain time & 2 hours earlier than CT.... maybe that's why there's a 2 hour descrepency in reports?????????

Good point. You have to be right on this. Great sleuthing.

jjenny
09-29-2010, 07:57 PM
Komisarjevsky's recollection of Mrs. Petit during that horrible night and morning is an account of the purest form of Christian strength. she tried to put herself in the shoes of the men who would ultimately kill her. she empathized with their financial predicaments. She said she never understood why God seemed to provide more for some than others. she prepared something for them to eat. she never lost composure. almost to her very last breath, Mrs. Petit held steady in her faith that God would deliver her family to safety. and, no doubt, that there was something salvageable in the souls of her captors.

As it turned out, Mrs. Petit was wrong on both counts. God did not deliver her family safely, and her attackers appear as soulless as human beings can be. and yet somehow Mrs. Petit's misjudgments only make her seem more Christian.

members of her church contend that Mrs. Petit signed an anti-death penalty document called A Declaration of Life. But a copy of that document has yet to surface. if there is a copy out there, withholding it dismisses a faith in God for which Jennifer Hawke-Petit lived and died.

http://www.brianmcdonald.info/blog.htm?month=2010-08 About half way down.

Wow I wonder if what JK said is true about Mrs. Petit, it really makes me want to cry. Have no idea what to think about the document, maybe he is just full of crap. I would never buy his book just because I don't think he should make money off the families pain, but I would love to read it.
Regarding the so-called "declaration of life"-if there ever was such a document, I'd think it would have been produced by now. Regarding Mrs. Petit being nice to them-that's not surprising at the least. If somebody is holding your family hostage, you can either try and fight, or try to be nice and humanize yourself to the attackers.
A woman with MS, an 11 year old girl and a teenage girl were in no condition to fight two able bodied men, so that was out.
What else could she do?

WellDone
09-29-2010, 08:02 PM
Regarding the so-called "declaration of life"-if there ever was such a document, I'd think it would have been produced by now. Regarding Mrs. Petit being nice to them-that's not surprising at the least. If somebody is holding your family hostage, you can either try and fight, or try to be nice and humanize yourself to the attackers.
A woman with MS, an 11 year old girl and a teenage girl were in no condition to fight two able bodied men, so that was out.
What else could she do?

BBM:

Plus these 2 were hardened criminals who were not only street smart, but also well versed in being incarcarated numerous times..... SH & JK were in a totally different league than the Hawke-Petit family..... Mrs. Hawke-Petit & her entire family were sadly at so many disadvantages against these two from the very get-go! There is so rational reasoning with these 2....

jjenny
09-29-2010, 08:16 PM
BBM:

Plus these 2 were hardened criminals who were not only street smart, but also well versed in being incarcarated numerous times..... SH & JK were in a totally different league than the Hawke-Petit family..... Mrs. Hawke-Petit & her entire family were sadly at so many disadvantages against these two from the very get-go! There is so rational reasoning with these 2....

And the father was out because he was beat up in his sleep, so nothing he could do. Plus neither the mother nor the father strike me as a "fighting kind."
Trying to humanize yourself to somebody holding you hostage is a common strategy, so I am sure she was doing what she could. But unfortunately these two did not care how nice she was.

JulieR
09-29-2010, 09:17 PM
Did JK tell McDonald that she did those things in his interview? Unreal.
As for the "declaration of life" there doesnt seem to be any evidence of it. Just the statements of some church members. What church was it, does anyone know? But these church members that have asseted she signed it may soon find themselves in a very awkard position. The defense may subpoena them to testify. Then they will find themselves inadvertantly defending these monsters and at odds with the Petit and Hawke families. But if i was the district atty, I would object to any discussion of such a delcaration it if the actual document is never found. Its clearly hearsay.

This was also on the web site I have linked on the above post. There is bits of informations about JK.

if Jennifer Hawke-Petit signed A Declaration of Life, and members of her church contend that she did, then she probably did so in January, 2006, a year-and-a-half before she was murdered in the Cheshire home invasion. that January, a link to the document was made available on the Cheshire United Methodist Church's website. in the story that accompanies the link, prospective signers are urged to take the document home and "talk to your family."

but the document itself also has instructions to send a signed and notarized copy to the Cherish Life Circle, Convent of Mercy in Brooklyn, NY.

at the convent, Sister Camille D'Arienzo, the Roman Catholic nun who first conceived the idea of A Declaration of Life, said she could find no record of Jennifer Hawke-Petit's signed document.

this doesn't mean that Hawke-Petit didn't sign the document, Sister Camille said. Congregations are known to keep their own records, she said.

If Hawke-Petit's church, or a member of her church, has a copy of her signed document, and has decided for whatever reason not to reveal it, their actions would be in direct conflict to the Social Principles as set forth by the General Board of the United Methodist Church.

jilly
09-29-2010, 11:13 PM
I don't want to belabor this point about the time of gas purchase but I've just found 3 other links that refer to the time as 7:05am. Nobody's converting the time from GMT. For me, it's not a case of who's right or wrong. I think this is an important issue.

Gas station manager Selma had dad testifies there was nothing unusual about #Hayes 7:05 am visit. Poor woman now facing a throng of media. Wednesday, September 22, 2010 10:09:15 AM via TweetDeck

http://twitter.com/Record_Journal

After Buglione's testimony, Selma Haddad, a clerk at the gas station where Hayes purchased gas, took the stand. Haddad testified that police reviewed video from the Cheshire gas station, where they said Hayes purchased gas at about 7:05 a.m.

http://www.wfsb.com/news/25112231/detail.html

Selma Haddad, a manager for a Citgo gas station in Cheshire, was called to the stand next. Surveillance video from the store show Hayes at 7:05am purchasing $10 worth of gas. The station is located less than a minute from the Petit home.

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/steven-hayes-trial-day-five

Additionally, for interest, here was the testimony of Ms Haddad (which I'd never seen before):

Selma Haddad said Steven Hayes stopped by to purchase gas on the morning of the murders. He’s seen on surveillance video buying $10 of gas with a $20 bill – perhaps, the state suggests, the gas used to burn the Petit home later that morning.

Haddad remembers looking him in the eye.

“My skin crawls, my skin crawls now,” she said. “I can’t believe I stood right there that morning. I can’t believe I’m here today.” Friends and family members were most shell-shocked by the testimony, and they comforted each other in the court gallery after.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/22/testimony-resumes-in-cheshire-home-invasion-trial/

MCDRAW
09-30-2010, 10:31 AM
This was also on the web site I have linked on the above post. There is bits of informations about JK.

if Jennifer Hawke-Petit signed A Declaration of Life, and members of her church contend that she did, then she probably did so in January, 2006, a year-and-a-half before she was murdered in the Cheshire home invasion. that January, a link to the document was made available on the Cheshire United Methodist Church's website. in the story that accompanies the link, prospective signers are urged to take the document home and "talk to your family."

but the document itself also has instructions to send a signed and notarized copy to the Cherish Life Circle, Convent of Mercy in Brooklyn, NY.

at the convent, Sister Camille D'Arienzo, the Roman Catholic nun who first conceived the idea of A Declaration of Life, said she could find no record of Jennifer Hawke-Petit's signed document.

this doesn't mean that Hawke-Petit didn't sign the document, Sister Camille said. Congregations are known to keep their own records, she said.

If Hawke-Petit's church, or a member of her church, has a copy of her signed document, and has decided for whatever reason not to reveal it, their actions would be in direct conflict to the Social Principles as set forth by the General Board of the United Methodist Church.


This is only my opinion Mrs. Petit may very well not have believed in the death penalty. I don't know if she did or didn't. I'm pretty sure had she survived and she knew her daughters had been tied up and gas poured on them and set on fire. I'm thinking she would want the death penalty for these monsters. Whether she would or wouldn't....Mr. Petit does and that is good enough for me.

MCDRAW
09-30-2010, 10:40 AM
Defense asked that the charges for Hayley's and Michaela's deaths be changed from murder to manslaughter. The judge rules the murder charges stand. The state gets 90 minutes for closing arguments.

MCDRAW
09-30-2010, 10:46 AM
defense wantsto pole jury to see if they think Hayes was a principal or accomplice to the girls death. I don't think that should matter. He admitted to killing Mrs. Hawke-Petit. He was there and took part willingly. I hope the judge agrees. The defense says it matters in sentencing phase. Again, did they forget that their client admitted to killing Mrs. Hawke-Petit?

MCDRAW
09-30-2010, 10:52 AM
Judge denies request to ask each jurior about principal or accomplice. Good because I saw trouble for next trial if they were asked. I see Hayes as both principal and accomplice that day.

MCDRAW
09-30-2010, 11:03 AM
According to nhregister (twitter) Ullman wants 2 of the 17 counts reduced to arson murder, claiming #Hayes (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Hayes) set the fire in the home, but didn 't mean to kill Petit daughter. Seriously? What did he think would happen?

jjenny
09-30-2010, 11:21 AM
According to nhregister (twitter) Ullman wants 2 of the 17 counts reduced to arson murder, claiming #Hayes (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Hayes) set the fire in the home, but didn 't mean to kill Petit daughter. Seriously? What did he think would happen?

Especially considering they were tied up, and we already heard testimony how much Hayes thinks of his abilities to tie someone up.

PrairieWind
09-30-2010, 12:47 PM
defense wantsto pole jury to see if they think Hayes was a principal or accomplice to the girls death. I don't think that should matter. He admitted to killing Mrs. Hawke-Petit. He was there and took part willingly. I hope the judge agrees. The defense says it matters in sentencing phase. Again, did they forget that their client admitted to killing Mrs. Hawke-Petit?

I havent been followoing the tweets today. Did he want the jury polled right now? Before closing? or after they reached their verdict?

MCDRAW
09-30-2010, 12:53 PM
I havent been followoing the tweets today. Did he want the jury polled right now? Before closing? or after they reached their verdict?


I believe after. Well I assume after. But the judge denied it, Said he had never heard of such a request. Judge said wasn't needed in guilt or innocence phase.

PrairieWind
09-30-2010, 01:18 PM
I've never heard of that either. The jury will essentially determine that question by their verdict anyway.
I've never ever heard of "polling" the jury by asking them specific questions like that other than "is that your verdict."

jilly
09-30-2010, 02:19 PM
I havent been followoing the tweets today. Did he want the jury polled right now? Before closing? or after they reached their verdict?

Here's an article about todays motions:

http://www.myrecordjournal.com/latestnews/article_cfb2f796-cca5-11df-993f-001cc4c03286.html

PrairieWind
09-30-2010, 03:17 PM
I have also never heard of counsel asking the court to limit time of closing arguments.

jilly
09-30-2010, 04:28 PM
I have also never heard of counsel asking the court to limit time of closing arguments.

Me neither and obviously this particular case fails to come under the State's usual practice.

Although the Connecticut Superior Court practice book allows one hour for closing arguments, a judge can, for "special cause," extend the length of time, particularly if a defendant faces multiple charges. Hayes faces a total of 17 charges.

Also - I personally consider this statement to be "inflammatory":

"I don't see a need for it," Ullmann said. "This is a pretty simple case."

http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-hayes-arguments-setup-1001-20100930,0,2618118.story

PrairieWind
09-30-2010, 05:23 PM
I was actually unaware that Connecticut court rules had such a time limitation. I've never run across that. But this would certainly be a "special cause". Although, there is soem truth in Ullmann's statement; there is over-whelming evidence that his client did everything he is charged with. However, it will take some time for the DA to actually go over that evidence with the jury.

PrairieWind
09-30-2010, 05:38 PM
What time are closing arguments scheduled for tomorrow?

jjenny
09-30-2010, 08:20 PM
Me neither and obviously this particular case fails to come under the State's usual practice.

Although the Connecticut Superior Court practice book allows one hour for closing arguments, a judge can, for "special cause," extend the length of time, particularly if a defendant faces multiple charges. Hayes faces a total of 17 charges.

Also - I personally consider this statement to be "inflammatory":

"I don't see a need for it," Ullmann said. "This is a pretty simple case."

http://www.courant.com/community/cheshire/cheshire-home-invasion/hc-hayes-arguments-setup-1001-20100930,0,2618118.story

To be fair it is a simple case with a lot of evidence.
I imagine defense doesn't expect a not guilty verdict here.

joypath
09-30-2010, 08:27 PM
What time are closing arguments scheduled for tomorrow?


Scheduled to begin at 10 am

Native New Yorker
10-01-2010, 01:20 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/nyregion/01cheshire.html?partner=rss&emc=rss


"It was Mr. Komisarjevsky, forensic evidence showed, who sexually assaulted Michaela Petit (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/petit_family/index.html?inline=nyt-per), 11, and photographed her with his cellphone. Then, according to an account by Mr. Hayes, Mr. Komisarjevsky tried to e-mail those photographs to his friends while the home-invasion horrors were still under way."

"And Mr. Komisarjevsky, defense lawyers suggested, was the one who poured bleach and then gasoline on Michaela, who was tied to her bed, to try to blot out the record of what he had done."

William N
10-01-2010, 02:42 AM
According to nhregister (twitter) Ullman wants 2 of the 17 counts reduced to arson murder, claiming #Hayes (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Hayes) set the fire in the home, but didn 't mean to kill Petit daughter. Seriously? What did he think would happen?

These are the kind of motions defense attorneys make in a case like this. Nothing unusual.

David In TN

jjenny
10-01-2010, 10:25 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/nyregion/01cheshire.html?partner=rss&emc=rss


"It was Mr. Komisarjevsky, forensic evidence showed, who sexually assaulted Michaela Petit (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/petit_family/index.html?inline=nyt-per), 11, and photographed her with his cellphone. Then, according to an account by Mr. Hayes, Mr. Komisarjevsky tried to e-mail those photographs to his friends while the home-invasion horrors were still under way."

"And Mr. Komisarjevsky, defense lawyers suggested, was the one who poured bleach and then gasoline on Michaela, who was tied to her bed, to try to blot out the record of what he had done."
Defense can try to make a silk purse out of cows ear, but there are plenty of thing Hayes accused of doing personally.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 10:33 AM
Defense can try to make a silk purse out of cows ear, but there are plenty of thing Hayes accused of doing personally.

Exactly. Hayes was the one that raped and strangled Ms Petit, the poured gasoline on her in an attempt to erase the record of what he had done.

robinparten
10-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Sorry, this may have been covered already, but were those two drugged up at the time they committed the crimes?

It is so hard for me to comprehend that two sober human beings could do such horrible things. Don't get me wrong, I know it happens everyday, it is just hard to comprehend though.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 11:42 AM
Sorry, this may have been covered already, but were those two drugged up at the time they committed the crimes?

It is so hard for me to comprehend that two sober human beings could do such horrible things. Don't get me wrong, I know it happens everyday, it is just hard to comprehend though.

There is no evidece of that. They claimed they had been drinking prior to going to the Petit house, but blood tests conducted after their arrests showed only the presence of caffeine.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 12:06 PM
Prosecution is alleging that it was indeed Hayes that actually lit the fire. Says that it makes sense that the last one out would be the one that struck the match, and JK was the first one out the door. Makes sense.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 12:22 PM
State's closing is finished. Sounds like it was pretty straight forward, just the facts. No theatrics. Smart. The evidence in this case speaks for itself.
Defense will do its closing this afternoon. Then the state should get a brief rebuttal.

joypath
10-01-2010, 01:25 PM
State's closing is finished. Sounds like it was pretty straight forward, just the facts. No theatrics. Smart. The evidence in this case speaks for itself.
Defense will do its closing this afternoon. Then the state should get a brief rebuttal.



:twocents:Just a quickie from court: :twocents:EXACTLY as PrairieWind described and it was POWERFUL! Dr. Petit was stoic, held tight to the seat and managed to watch, some jurors were weeping but the overall heaviness in the room at the close of Dearington's comments----unbearable, like every drop of O2 had been sucked out! AND the State does get a brief (~15 minute+) rebuttal)

And just as a "gift from God/above" the heavy rains stopped and we're experiencing a clearing, rather like the emotions being lifted a bit now that the truth has been put forth.

Oh yeah, I'm impartial on this case.....as I am with all the cases.:waitasec:
(BUT the jury is NOT going to forget those images!)

hollyjokers
10-01-2010, 01:39 PM
During the lull in proceedings over the past few days, I've been reading the Christian Newsom trial threads that have been referenced here - baffling that I never heard tell of that case here in Northeast Ohio. Quite scary how criminals are figuring out ways to cover their tracks. I wonder if either of these hoods had read about that case prior to this. Seems doubtful, but some of the similarities (victims making phone calls, bleach) are striking.

JulieR
10-01-2010, 02:03 PM
Is this going to the jury today? How long do we think it will take for them to come back? I think Hayes will get death.

JulieR
10-01-2010, 02:07 PM
GeorgeColli Sounds like it will be at least Tuesday before verdict... #hayes about 1 minute ago reply

Gezzz we all ready know he's guilty why Tuesday, I guess all the paper work. I heard it's going to take another month for the penalty phase.

Cher352
10-01-2010, 02:09 PM
Closing agruments just complete and jury dimissed for the day.

Jury is to report to court on monday for instructions on deliberations.

Jurors will end deliberation each day between 4:30-5:00.

(Even with 17 counts to go over I can't believe it will take more than 1 day)

joypath
10-01-2010, 02:11 PM
Is this going to the jury today? How long do we think it will take for them to come back? I think Hayes will get death.


NOPE, not going to the jury today! Jury returning Monday for instructions (got an inside clue that there are ~ 40+ pages!) regarding the charges. Plans for the jury to "work" each day as needed 'til 4 00-5 00 pm, earliest decision date MIGHT be late Monday but probably Tuesday as earliest 'cause so many charges.


Death IS possible but the defense was rather good on try (TRYING I say:furious:) to mitigate the impact of the girls' deaths

hollyjokers
10-01-2010, 02:12 PM
Jury will be instructed on Monday. Probably will take some time to go through everything before they begin deliberating. I would guess the earliest a verdict may come in is late Tuesday afternoon, but it could take longer. I'm a little concerned by some of George Colli's tweets: one of the jurors was not making eye contact with the state for much of the closing; kept his head down through out.

Cher352
10-01-2010, 02:15 PM
GeorgeColli Sounds like it will be at least Tuesday before verdict... #hayes about 1 minute ago reply

Gezzz we all ready know he's guilty why Tuesday, I guess all the paper work. I heard it's going to take another month for the penalty phase.

I heard that too...a month!!!

Not sure how CT works but I had heard all I need to say the death penalty is the only choice. Nothing could be said in the penalty phase that would change my mind!

hollyjokers
10-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Death IS possible but the defense was rather good on try (TRYING I say:furious:) to mitigate the impact of the girls' deaths

Hayes overheard saying he poured gas "down the stairs" may have been "downstairs" - was a good point:(:(

JulieR
10-01-2010, 02:25 PM
NOPE, not going to the jury today! Jury returning Monday for instructions (got an inside clue that there are ~ 40+ pages!) regarding the charges. Plans for the jury to "work" each day as needed 'til 4 00-5 00 pm, earliest decision date MIGHT be late Monday but probably Tuesday as earliest 'cause so many charges.


Death IS possible but the defense was rather good on try (TRYING I say:furious:) to mitigate the impact of the girls' deaths


I agree about the defense, but I think the video of Hayes buying the gas will do him in. For some reason I do think Hayes was the one that light the match (don't know why) I have read somewhere that JK was a smoker so he would have had the matches. I guess because Hayes was the last one out, but then again if I light a match where gas was, you can be sure I would be the first one out. I think it was JK that told police right after the accident that there were two girls in the house, in the bedrooms. Other wise the defense would have used it if Hayes said it. Either way they both deserve death.

Cher352
10-01-2010, 02:31 PM
I agree about the defense, but I think the video of Hayes buying the gas will do him in. For some reason I do think Hayes was the one that light the match (don't know why) I have read somewhere that JK was a smoker so he would have had the matches. I guess because Hayes was the last one out, but then again if I light a match where gas was, you can be sure I would be the first one out. I think it was JK that told police right after the accident that there were two girls in the house, in the bedrooms. Other wise the defense would have used it if Hayes said it. Either way they both deserve death.

I didn't remember that but I do remember when first approached by LE Hayes was asked if anyone was in the house and he replied "I don't know" :furious:

Cher352
10-01-2010, 02:33 PM
Off to check on the Dugard case.

Phillip and Nancy Garrido are to appear together court today to face arraignment for the kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard.

joypath
10-01-2010, 02:39 PM
:twocents:PERSONAL opinion.:twocents:
I believe that the premeditation factor will knock both boys out of the park and send them to death row in a "ct second". Hayes had opportunity to abort the mission, HE WAS OUT OF THE HOUSE! :furious: It matters not that he did NOT physically handle either of the girls, HE provided the means of the death mechanism for them (formally, CO poisoning by smoke inhalation).

The key in premeditation is that it takes a second to CHOOSE to perform the action, not that the action has to be PLANNED out or ORGANIZED prior to performance.

ziggy
10-01-2010, 02:47 PM
You are right! And as co-conspirator he's just as guilty as his partner for the felonies they commit. If this isn't a slam dunk I don't know what is. It's a death qualified jury and the crimes certainly call for it under CT law.

WellDone
10-01-2010, 02:58 PM
BBM:

I guess they'll figure out the time discrepency in court, or have already.... either way ~ imo ~ other than for a time line factor & who did what & when..... all that matters most is SH did in fact take it upon himself to go & purchase the gas that was later used to set fire to the Hawke-Petit home & ultimately murder these women.

There's no good way to look at it imo...

Thanks for all the links jilly





I don't want to belabor this point about the time of gas purchase but I've just found 3 other links that refer to the time as 7:05am. Nobody's converting the time from GMT. For me, it's not a case of who's right or wrong. I think this is an important issue.

Gas station manager Selma had dad testifies there was nothing unusual about #Hayes 7:05 am visit. Poor woman now facing a throng of media. Wednesday, September 22, 2010 10:09:15 AM via TweetDeck

http://twitter.com/Record_Journal

After Buglione's testimony, Selma Haddad, a clerk at the gas station where Hayes purchased gas, took the stand. Haddad testified that police reviewed video from the Cheshire gas station, where they said Hayes purchased gas at about 7:05 a.m.

http://www.wfsb.com/news/25112231/detail.html

Selma Haddad, a manager for a Citgo gas station in Cheshire, was called to the stand next. Surveillance video from the store show Hayes at 7:05am purchasing $10 worth of gas. The station is located less than a minute from the Petit home.

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/steven-hayes-trial-day-five

Additionally, for interest, here was the testimony of Ms Haddad (which I'd never seen before):

Selma Haddad said Steven Hayes stopped by to purchase gas on the morning of the murders. He’s seen on surveillance video buying $10 of gas with a $20 bill – perhaps, the state suggests, the gas used to burn the Petit home later that morning.

Haddad remembers looking him in the eye.

“My skin crawls, my skin crawls now,” she said. “I can’t believe I stood right there that morning. I can’t believe I’m here today.” Friends and family members were most shell-shocked by the testimony, and they comforted each other in the court gallery after.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/22/testimony-resumes-in-cheshire-home-invasion-trial/

WellDone
10-01-2010, 03:03 PM
BBM:
Hayes had opportunity to abort the mission, HE WAS OUT OF THE HOUSE!

Not just once, but twice!!! To buy the gas & to go to the bank.... come on.... yet his defense attorney would have everyone believe he wasn't in this 110% ~ That's just ridiculous & insulting to expect anyone to see it that way...


:twocents:PERSONAL opinion.:twocents:
I believe that the premeditation factor will knock both boys out of the park and send them to death row in a "ct second". Hayes had opportunity to abort the mission, HE WAS OUT OF THE HOUSE! :furious: It matters not that he did NOT physically handle either of the girls, HE provided the means of the death mechanism for them (formally, CO poisoning by smoke inhalation).

The key in premeditation is that it takes a second to CHOOSE to perform the action, not that the action has to be PLANNED out or ORGANIZED prior to performance.

ella971
10-01-2010, 03:09 PM
Torture.Both of them together did this.Raping and lighting people on fire does not say enough. I really give up.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Hayes already qualifies for the death penalty bases just on things he has pretty much admitted; ie the rape and strangulation of Mrs Petit and the robbery. His entire strategy for this case has been that, sure he did that, but he didnt do anything to the girls, and that was worse. So, I'm the worst one, and the death penalty should only be reserved for the absolute worst. Now, that arguement maybe totally insane to you and me. But to a juror, that may be squeemish and looking for a way to not have to vote for death, maybe its enough. The juror that apparently wouldnt look at the prosecution the whole trial has me worried.

ella971
10-01-2010, 04:15 PM
Hayes already qualifies for the death penalty bases just on things he has pretty much admitted; ie the rape and strangulation of Mrs Petit and the robbery. His entire strategy for this case has been that, sure he did that, but he didnt do anything to the girls, and that was worse. So, I'm the worst one, and the death penalty should only be reserved for the absolute worst. Now, that arguement maybe totally insane to you and me. But to a juror, that may be squeemish and looking for a way to not have to vote for death, maybe its enough. The juror that apparently wouldnt look at the prosecution the whole trial has me worried.

I'm very worried about that as well.Not looking and having eye contact is so not good.

MCDRAW
10-01-2010, 04:30 PM
Hayes already qualifies for the death penalty bases just on things he has pretty much admitted; ie the rape and strangulation of Mrs Petit and the robbery. His entire strategy for this case has been that, sure he did that, but he didnt do anything to the girls, and that was worse. So, I'm the worst one, and the death penalty should only be reserved for the absolute worst. Now, that arguement maybe totally insane to you and me. But to a juror, that may be squeemish and looking for a way to not have to vote for death, maybe its enough. The juror that apparently wouldnt look at the prosecution the whole trial has me worried.


That defense has bothered me. It's like what he did to Mrs. Hawke-Petit wasn't that bad. I understand what your saying about the jury. I just wanted to scream all day every time the defense would make those comments. I am really hoping he gets the death penalty.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 05:04 PM
We will really see that defense strategy fully set out in the penalty phase. I think the DA needs to harp on a couple points. First, that just what Hayes admits to is still far worse than most of the murders that occur in this country. Second, his admitted crimes satisfy the statutory requirements for death. Third, you know he isnt going to admit to the worst of the incidents here. Fourth, with out him, this crime doesnt happen (he was the one that got the gas - no gas, no horrible murder of the girls). Fifth, he was almost certainy guilty of pouring gas around the house someplace as is evidenced by the gas on his pants and socks (spray from where it hit the floor). Remember that Hayes told police something about pour gas on the stairs. But defense atty aruges that it could have been DOWNstairs. But that doesnt comport with the evidence. JK was the one that yelled that the Doctor had escaped and they needed to get out of there. It would make sense that JK discovered this when he went down stairs to pour gas. So it logically follows that Hayes MUST have poured gas UP the stairs. There are too many lies and pretty soon the truth leaks through.

JulieR
10-01-2010, 05:06 PM
I am really hoping he gets the death penalty also, not that I think he will ever see death by lethal injection (All the appeals). More that he has to spend his time on death row with just an hour a day outside his cell and not be part of the prison population. If he don't get put to death, that's fine, but he deserves to spend the rest of his days alone thinking about why he is there. To me, that makes death look more appealing then living. JMO

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 05:22 PM
I hope so too Julie. I just think there are times when we must say "look, your crime is sooo horrible, so indefensible, so unnecesarrily cruel, that we as a society MUST levy our ultimate punishment to send a message that this will not be allowed, and to send a message to the victims family that the state does indeed care about, and will do all it can, to carry out justice. Setting a living and conscious person (let alone a child) on fire by first pouring gasoline on them, is the epitomy of that.

JulieR
10-01-2010, 05:51 PM
I have been trying to get a complete time line of events from what we know…….I didn’t put all the police logs on here. If anyone has some to add to it please do. I can’t find all the times Hayes and JK were calling each other when Hayes was at the bank and getting gas.

Timeline:

2:00-3:00 AM Hayes and JK enter the Petit house. Dr. Petit hit with a bat, Jennifer and the girls are tied up.

(Some point Dr. Petit is put in the basement )

6:45 AM Call is made to Dr. Petit’s office, by Jennifer.
7:05 Hayes is seen on video @ Citgo buying gas. (During closing is was said he was seen at another gas station just getting gas. (Not filling containers)
7:20 JK Called Hayes cell phone
7:27 JK took 1st picture of MP
7:30 JK Called the Bank of America
7:51 JK took 2nd picture of MP
7:52 JK took 3RD picture of MP

9:09-9:23 Jennifer is in the bank.
9:14 JK takes last photo with his phone. (not sure who this photo is) One said older female and another said all pictures on the phone were of MP. It was said this photo was of the nude private area. Other photos were said of MK tied up, one close up of her private area (had panties on) with skirt up. It must have been during this time JK made MP shower.
9:21 First police log
9:31 Office confirms address/ drive by has vehicle in question in the driveway. We know in the next 25 minutes Jennifer is raped, murdered, gas is poured and the house is set on fire.
9:43 Police officer has visual of driveway and house.
9:56 Office hears Dr. Petit calling Dave, Dave.
9:57 Officers have activity in the driveway. (JK and Hayes running from the house.)
9:59 2 Suspects out of vehicle @ gun point.
10:00 Fire called in. One of the suspects told the police 2 females in the upstairs bedroom, as well as the woman that drove to the bank.
10:06 power to the house cut.

At some point Hayes put HP’s back pack in the red pickup truck he was using, it was parked at the Stop & Shop in Cheshire.

According to JK at some point in the night both him and Hayes left to move JK’s car IIRC they were gone 20 minutes.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 06:06 PM
A question I havent seen the answer to, but i'm sure it was addressed; where did the baseball bat come from? Did they bring it with them or did they find it at the Petit house?

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 06:07 PM
Julie, good work on the timeline. That has been confusing some too becasue i've never really seen it set forth yet.

PrairieWind
10-01-2010, 06:09 PM
Just noticing something from that timeline: notice the amount of time between the photos of Michaela. Chilling. Obviously wasnt just taking photos

JulieR
10-01-2010, 07:00 PM
JK found the bat in the basement of the house. I't seems Michaela may not have known JK was taking the first 3 photos, she had her head covered, but I could be wrong.

jilly
10-01-2010, 11:17 PM
BBM:

I guess they'll figure out the time discrepency in court, or have already.... either way ~ imo ~ other than for a time line factor & who did what & when..... all that matters most is SH did in fact take it upon himself to go & purchase the gas that was later used to set fire to the Hawke-Petit home & ultimately murder these women.

There's no good way to look at it imo...

Thanks for all the links jilly






YW welldone! ITA. Just to settle this though - it was established in the closing today:

InSession He notes that at 6:45a Dr. Petit heard his wife call Mona Huggard. At 7:05a, #Hayes is buying gas at the Citgo station. about 11 hours ago via web

http://twitter.com/InSession/ct-v-hayes

I don't know what the GMT was......anyways, like you, I went through nearly the whole trial believing it was 4 or 5am.

shefner
10-02-2010, 12:40 AM
No question.....he'll get the death penalty. It won't take the jury long....Just My Opinion.

jjenny
10-02-2010, 12:45 AM
That defense has bothered me. It's like what he did to Mrs. Hawke-Petit wasn't that bad. I understand what your saying about the jury. I just wanted to scream all day every time the defense would make those comments. I am really hoping he gets the death penalty.

Exactly. As if raping and killing a woman wasn't that bad since it's a woman and not a child.

jilly
10-02-2010, 07:31 PM
Prosecution is alleging that it was indeed Hayes that actually lit the fire. Says that it makes sense that the last one out would be the one that struck the match, and JK was the first one out the door. Makes sense.

Just a question.....if the pros goes with this during this trial, are they locked in with it at jk's trial? Or would that come in as an opinion and not considered by the jury?

For the second trial - we've got Hayes buying and spreading the gas, so maybe the defense would go with an accessory to arson for jk?

jilly
10-02-2010, 10:33 PM
julie - I really appreciate you taking the time and trouble to do the timeline!:)

PrairieWind
10-02-2010, 11:44 PM
Just a question.....if the pros goes with this during this trial, are they locked in with it at jk's trial? Or would that come in as an opinion and not considered by the jury?

For the second trial - we've got Hayes buying and spreading the gas, so maybe the defense would go with an accessory to arson for jk?

No, the would not be locked in to that. The prosecution isnt really saying "this is what did happen." Merely, this is what the evidence would support. And there is ample evidence that could support either one of these idiots pouring the gas on or around the girls and/or lighting it.

lilacwine
10-03-2010, 01:37 PM
This case chills me to the core of my soul.

I have always said, I doubt I could be on a jury that voted for the death penalty except in the most barbaric circumstances.

In this case... I'd gladly give these savages the injections myself. And, it makes me want to vomit that I can say this.

joypath
10-03-2010, 03:35 PM
FYI A little "back story" on Judge Blue from the local news rag but a wicked good reporter!

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/10/03/news/doc4ca80b344090e554190238.txt

Native New Yorker
10-03-2010, 04:36 PM
I say they are both equally culpable in the death of the girls:
IMO, JK poured gas upstairs while SH was at the bank....

then SH came back, raped and killed the poor mother, and then the fire was set....


Who is to say that perhaps JK lit a match at the stairs which consumed the area upstairs, and then SH lit a match on his way out the door....?

Or even if only one of them lit the match, the other one is just as guilty for pouring the accelerant....

tapu
10-03-2010, 08:16 PM
Death may not bring justice to these two men, or peace to William Petit, but there are shades of gray. These are my thoughts and opinions...

These men deserve to die. By that, I mean that their actions were so depraved, so gratuitous, so beyond any rationale that is ever used as mitigation for crimes, that they should not live any longer. Their existence is characterized by moral emptiness (equivalent to the idea of "evil," for me). There is no coming back from where they are in human society. These are not redeemable beings. (I don't believe in a defined god, so I may presume to judge.) Nothing these men could ever do would even begin to atone for these crimes. Why should they be allowed to do anything? They have done enough.

Beyond that, I think they should be put to death to give William Petit the slightest peace he might gain from having their existence on Earth wiped out. Don't let him lie in bed at night, thinking about how his family is gone, while these guys have even the occasional joy in prison, whether it be through extension courses, furniture building, dog raising, whatever. Don't let Petit have to read their names in the news when they or their lawyers do something "newsworthy." Ever seen the obscene video of Richard Stark (Chicago, killer of 9 student nurses)in prison, laughing and prancing, doing drugs and "holding court" with his "supplicant" co-prisoners? It's horrifying to think of anything remotely like that getting back to Petit. If I try to imagine myself in his position (however slightly that I can), I know that, with them dead, I would perhaps be able to hold my wife and children in my thoughts and tell them "Those men are dead."

Cher352
10-04-2010, 09:32 AM
Death may not bring justice to these two men, or peace to William Petit, but there are shades of gray. These are my thoughts and opinions...

These men deserve to die. By that, I mean that their actions were so depraved, so gratuitous, so beyond any rationale that is ever used as mitigation for crimes, that they should not live any longer. Their existence is characterized by moral emptiness (equivalent to the idea of "evil," for me). There is no coming back from where they are in human society. These are not redeemable beings. (I don't believe in a defined god, so I may presume to judge.) Nothing these men could ever do would even begin to atone for these crimes. Why should they be allowed to do anything? They have done enough.

Beyond that, I think they should be put to death to give William Petit the slightest peace he might gain from having their existence on Earth wiped out. Don't let him lie in bed at night, thinking about how his family is gone, while these guys have even the occasional joy in prison, whether it be through extension courses, furniture building, dog raising, whatever. Don't let Petit have to read their names in the news when they or their lawyers do something "newsworthy." Ever seen the obscene video of Richard Stark (Chicago, killer of 9 student nurses)in prison, laughing and prancing, doing drugs and "holding court" with his "supplicant" co-prisoners? It's horrifying to think of anything remotely like that getting back to Petit. If I try to imagine myself in his position (however slightly that I can), I know that, with them dead, I would perhaps be able to hold my wife and children in my thoughts and tell them "Those men are dead."

Excellent post...could not agree with you more!

Cher352
10-04-2010, 09:43 AM
Jury to get case in Hayes trial
Published : Monday, 04 Oct 2010, 5:59 AM EDT

New Haven, Conn. (AP) - The case against Cheshire home invasion suspect Steven Hayes is expected to go to the jury today.

Closing arguments wrapped on Friday after days of difficult testimony. The jury will start deliberating after the judge goes over the charges with them, and that could take a while. Steven Hayes is charged with 17 different counts and Judge Jon Blue has to go over the legal requirements for each one.

After that, the jurors will go behind closed doors to discuss if Hayes is guilty.

This is a pretty strange case in that Hayes own lawyers admit their client did break into the house to steal from the Petits, and that he did rape and strangle Jennifer Hawke-Petit, but the defense says Steven Hayes was not responsible for every bad thing that happened in that Cheshire home.

cont. @

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/steven-hayes-trial-deliberations

Note the word "strange". Probably should read "ridiculous".

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 10:33 AM
http://twitter.com/NotesFromHeL

http://twitter.com/News8Now

http://twitter.com/nhregister

http://twitter.com/Record_Journal

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 11:30 AM
Judge has concluded readng the charges/jury instructions. took about hour and 15 min. Jury should get the case soon.

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 12:24 PM
The jury finally has the case, heading to the jury room to select a foreman and begin deliberations. Hopefully, they will quickly reach verdicts. I guess there could be some discussion as to whether he is guilty of the first degree arson since no real evidence he struck the match, or whether he is guilty of the assault charges. Ultimately though its irrelevant since there is more than enough to convict on the rape, kidnap and murder of Mrs Petit and that alone will make him eligible for the death penalty. Also, hopefully, the jury is smart enough to realize that each defendant is pointing the finger at the other and that at JK's trial it will be alleged that Hayes was the real villain.

momtective
10-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Jury has been in deliberation for almost and hour now. Also InSession is covering this case right now.
http://www.newser.com/article/d9ikvfl83/conn-jury-begins-deliberating-fate-of-man-charged-in-home-invasion-killings-of-woman-2-kids.html

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 12:43 PM
Actually, I guess they have not been in deliberations officially. Court is taking a long time to go over the evidence checklists prior to the evidence beening submitted to the jury. That is strange to me because usually the attorneys meet with the court the night before or very early that morning to go over that. You would have to assume though that the jury is talking about teh case amongst themselves anyway.

jilly
10-04-2010, 01:36 PM
Deliberations won't start until after 2pm Eastern.

http://twitter.com/insession

Defense had the Judge point out that they have to be unanimous on each count.

zoomom
10-04-2010, 01:49 PM
One time I was a juror on a homicide case and the judge did the same thing. Broke the charges out individually and we had to be unanimous. It was TOUGH!!!!! We all agreed immediatley the guy was guilty (very obvious), but we were instructed to come up with and agree to what exact point in the case was the tipping point for each charge!!! That's where the problems came in!! We had to keep having the transcripts re-read to us because we all remembered things ever so slightly different. If we had been allowed to just decide guilty or not - the deliberations would have been over in 30 minutes instead of 3 entire days. FWIW I feel for those jurors.



ETA: If I remember correctly - we even had to write the points on a type of worksheet the judge gave us! And we were then individually polled in the court room in front of the defendent.

jilly
10-04-2010, 02:01 PM
One time I was a juror on a homicide case and the judge did the same thing. Broke the charges out individually and we had to be unanimous. It was TOUGH!!!!! We all agreed immediatley the guy was guilty (very obvious), but we were instructed to come up with and agree to what exact point in the case was the tipping point for each charge!!! That's where the problems came in!! We had to keep having the transcripts re-read to us because we all remembered things ever so slightly different. If we had been allowed to just decide guilty or not - the deliberations would have been over in 30 minutes instead of 3 entire days. FWIW I feel for those jurors.



ETA: If I remember correctly - we even had to write the points on a type of worksheet the judge gave us! And we were then individually polled in the court room in front of the defendent.

And there are 17 counts here!! The paperwork alone will take some time.
Also, the Judge told these jurors they can be polled.

I feel for these jurors too!!! In fact I would say we probably all do. If I was on that jury I would need some counselling after this!

Cher352
10-04-2010, 02:46 PM
Deliberations began @2:11pm. While we wait here is a good article from Helen Ubinus whose tweets many of us have followed.

Hayes Had Chances To Alter Outcome Of Home Invasion
'Count The Opportunities He Had To Walk Away From This,' A Prosecutor Said
Helen Ubiñas
October 3, 2010

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-ubinas-hayes-1003-20101002,0,2202831.column

Cher352
10-04-2010, 02:52 PM
Jury has already sent out a note with a question.
All lawyers present for side bar about note.

Think the note says "is it too early to say guilty on all counts?" .....I wish!

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Jury has already sent out a note with a question.
All lawyers present for side bar about note.

Think the note says "is it too early to say guilty on all counts?" .....I wish!

LOL, thats funny! Thats what i would be thinking if I was them. Weird to send a question out that fast. You'd think maybe they would move on to something else and come back to questions a bit later. Any idea what the question is?

Cher352
10-04-2010, 03:45 PM
LOL, thats funny! Thats what i would be thinking if I was them. Weird to send a question out that fast. You'd think maybe they would move on to something else and come back to questions a bit later. Any idea what the question is?

From the tweets:

GeorgeColli : Jury asks for transcript of Det Buglione-hayes interview. Told they could have it read back. Decide they don't need it.
Another interesting tweet:

nhrlive: DID YA KNOW: of the 127 recorded executions in CT history, 108 were by hanging, 18 by elec chair, and only 1 by lethal injection.

MOO: Any of the above is too good for either of these guys...I vote on burning at the stake!

joypath
10-04-2010, 03:49 PM
LOL, thats funny! Thats what i would be thinking if I was them. Weird to send a question out that fast. You'd think maybe they would move on to something else and come back to questions a bit later. Any idea what the question is?



Got the word that they wanted the transcript of the Detective's interview with Hayes (Detective Bulgione) ? if I'm spelling it correctly!) BUT no hard copy ready unlike TV! Judge Blue indicated that he could have the court reporter read it, about 45 minutes but jury said forget it and went back to deliberate.

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 04:07 PM
Got the word that they wanted the transcript of the Detective's interview with Hayes (Detective Bulgione) ? if I'm spelling it correctly!) BUT no hard copy ready unlike TV! Judge Blue indicated that he could have the court reporter read it, about 45 minutes but jury said forget it and went back to deliberate.

Kind of strange. Not sure what to make of it. Its funny during these deliberations how we try to make something out of every question.

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 04:26 PM
Another note from the jury

shefner
10-04-2010, 04:30 PM
Another note from the jury

How about...."We have a verdict on all 17 counts." That would be great!

shefner
10-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Apparently no verdict just yet.....note requests clarification about fire.....

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 04:36 PM
Question is for a definition of "starting a fire." Does pouring gasoline qualify as starting fire. Judge says "no."

shefner
10-04-2010, 04:37 PM
Jury wants to know if pouring gas is same as "starting a fire." Judge says no.

I don't really understand that. I think if you pour gas on people knowing that someone is about to strike a match, that is the same as "starting a fire." Geez.....

jilly
10-04-2010, 04:40 PM
A reporter had previously said that this was a "high maintenance jury". I think there will be quite a few questions.

I think it's great that every time they have a question Hayes is dragged back to the CRm. His anxiety level must be bouncing around. This morning on ubertwitter they said "#hayes looks shaky today. Sickly. He turned to look at ppl in court before being walked into room. His eyes n cheeks are sunken, he's pale."

I say good!!

PrairieWind
10-04-2010, 04:42 PM
I would agree shefner, that pouring the gas should be "arson" since it is part of the process. But apparently connecticut law doesnt define it that way. May be something for their legislature to consider changing.